# Caimen vs Waterman 18



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

I fish the Louisiana Marsh, spend a lot of time poling quite shallow, but a lot of what I fish requires some significant open water crossings. I'm in the market for a new to me skiff. Given the choice of a Caimen or a Waterman 18, similarly rigged and priced close enough for it to not be a factor, which would you choose and why? Any other strong recommendations in the 18 foot range for those criteria, and again, why? Thanks.


----------



## Austin Bustamante (May 11, 2015)

Waterman 18 if you need a stable platform. I run a Caimen and it’s definitely less stable, but runs excellent in a chop and the open water La runs. I have guided 2 clients out of it multiple times, but it does get friendly during double-ups. 

wet test and get what you like!


----------



## ZisMe (Sep 29, 2014)

Ive owned both. I would say that overall, the Waterman is a more versatile boat. Way more room in the cockpit and much more stable. Both pole really well. When weighed down (24V TM and plenty of fuel), i think the Caimen has a softer and drier ride. To me, the comfort of the ride in the Caimen drops off dramatically with lighter builds and less weight. Unless youre spending a lot of time in back creeks where the narrow beam is advantageous, i would go with the Waterman.


----------



## rkmurphy526 (Jun 9, 2018)

East Cape Fury would suit you well. More well rounded and better ride than a Caimen. WAY more stable. Also, unlike either of the boats you mentioned, the Fury has some deadrise. I would see no issue carving through narrow creeks.


----------



## Flattitude (Jun 30, 2016)

I've had the 18' Waterman & it was a very stable fishing platform & rode well!!


----------



## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

Waterman 18 all day. Caimen might be a touch drier but waterman is A much better all around boat. depending how it’s laid out the 18 will draft the same as A light build Caimen Cause on the lighter ones the bow seems to get stuck first from my experience.


----------



## HBFanatic (Dec 2, 2016)

18 waterman. Gordon if u can find one. Tiller for sale in Fl on this site


----------



## sotilloa1078 (Mar 27, 2014)

Waterman for sure between those two. It’s long enough to bridge the gaps between. The chop and very stable. Tab down and slow down on the nasty days and you’ll be fine


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

What Austin said. But I think your initial premise is key. "Relatively the same cost." That is likely where the real difference comes in.


----------



## Caleb.Esparza (Jan 31, 2016)

I have fished on both extensively. They both ride pretty similar in the rough stuff, as in neither of them is ideal but very very doable with a skilled driver. Caimen will be drier and slightly smoother, Waterman runs skinnier with a JP. Both pole skinny enough for 98% of situations out there but I prefer poling the waterman. I give the edge to the waterman 18 for the extra stability and roomier cockpit all things being considered. Especially if it’s a Tom built waterman pre-reissue from HB. 

Trolling motors are a non-starter for either skiff


----------



## hookemdano (Feb 9, 2007)

Have owned a no floor waterman 18 for 12 years. It’s a great boat for how I like to fish most of the time. Definitely not the driest boat by any means but you can adjust w tabs and trim to make it better. If you know how to run it you can run it in scary narrow canals without sliding as well. One thing I really like is that the hull has enough rocker to get the bow up if it gets super snotty. Everyone else has already spoken as to how it fishes.


----------



## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Hey Ron, Marc from LAflyfish. PM me your number. I owe you a day on the front of my skiff.

I'd look real hard at this boat if I were in the market for a watermen.

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/07-beavertail-bare-bones.72612/#post-669770


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Caleb.Esparza said:


> I have fished on both extensively. They both ride pretty similar in the rough stuff, as in neither of them is ideal but very very doable with a skilled driver. Caimen will be drier and slightly smoother, Waterman runs skinnier with a JP. Both pole skinny enough for 98% of situations out there but I prefer poling the waterman. I give the edge to the waterman 18 for the extra stability and roomier cockpit all things being considered. Especially if it’s a Tom built waterman pre-reissue from HB.
> 
> *Trolling motors are a non-starter for either skiff*


Atta boy Caleb. I've been wondering when that would creep in!


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

jmrodandgun said:


> Hey Ron, Marc from LAflyfish. PM me your number. I owe you a day on the front of my skiff.
> 
> I'd look real hard at this boat if I were in the market for a watermen.
> 
> https://www.microskiff.com/threads/07-beavertail-bare-bones.72612/#post-669770


Mark, if I were patient enough to wait on delivery, a new Cayo would be on my list.


----------



## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

jmrodandgun said:


> Hey Ron, Marc from LAflyfish. PM me your number. I owe you a day on the front of my skiff.
> 
> I'd look real hard at this boat if I were in the market for a watermen.
> 
> https://www.microskiff.com/threads/07-beavertail-bare-bones.72612/#post-669770


I ran an 07 Bare Bones for 9 years and liked it a lot. No complaints other than storage is limited, but you can use the coolers you sit on for storage. A 50 is a good match for this hull.


----------



## Swe (Apr 19, 2017)

I had always wanted a waterman and was all set to buy but changed my mined after riding the Evo x slightly different boat but draft and pole similar. I like the Evo a little better on the pole. More dry storage and large deck area front and back plus it sits higher in the water and felt more comfortable for those days fishing off the beach. I also prefer the closed bilge over the open ones on the HB and I couldn’t commit to the side console. if those were my only two choices I may still lean to the waterman over the caimen.


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

So honest question cause I don't know. Would a similarly equipped and condition Caimen and Waterman be roughly the same cost?


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

ifsteve said:


> So honest question cause I don't know. Would a similarly equipped and condition Caimen and Waterman be roughly the same cost?


Steve, generally the Waterman will be more, the two I were comparing were close in price because the Caimen was newer.


----------



## TidewateR (Nov 11, 2009)

redchaser said:


> Mark, if I were patient enough to wait on delivery, a new Cayo would be on my list.


finish the gheenoe and fish it until the Cayo is built!


----------



## Austin Bustamante (May 11, 2015)

On a side note, I don’t think comparing those 2 skiffs is apples to apples per say. 

Measurements from manufacturer website. 
Waterman- length 18’ beam 73”
Fury- length 18’1” beam 72”
Caimen- length 17’10” beam 61.5”
Glades Skiff- length 17’8” beam 58”


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

Austin Bustamante said:


> On a side note, I don’t think comparing those 2 skiffs is apples to apples per say.
> 
> Measurements from manufacturer website.
> Waterman- length 18’ beam 73”
> ...


Austin, certainly not apples to apples in layout/size, but a fairly good comparison in terms of being able to do what I need them to. Both will fish well in shallow water, both have OKish ability to cross some open water. Keep in mind I'm moving from a Carolina Skiff, so anything will be an improvement in that regard.


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

TidewateR said:


> finish the gheenoe and fish it until the Cayo is built!


 That will take me longer than getting a skiff built.


----------



## TX_Brad (Jun 8, 2018)

Austin Bustamante said:


> On a side note, I don’t think comparing those 2 skiffs is apples to apples per say.
> 
> Measurements from manufacturer website.
> Waterman- length 18’ beam 73”
> ...


Actually looking at the measurements side by side, it surprises me that everyone says the Caimen is a drier ride vs the Waterman. Never been on a Waterman so be curious to know why. I love the Caimen and the ride, but wouldn't give up the space/versatility my Fury has for what I do.


----------



## Austin Bustamante (May 11, 2015)

redchaser said:


> Austin, certainly not apples to apples in layout/size, but a fairly good comparison in terms of being able to do what I need them to. Both will fish well in shallow water, both have OKish ability to cross some open water. Keep in mind I'm moving from a Carolina Skiff, so anything will be an improvement in that regard.


If you want a caimen ride just shoot me a message.


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

Austin Bustamante said:


> If you want a caimen ride just shoot me a message.


Thanks Austin, I've spent a lot of time poling and fishing from a couple of different Caimen's. They impressed me with how they handle a chop and they pole just fine. Some folks think they are a little tippy, but I've spent a lot of time on a platform so I guess it jsut doesn't bother me.


----------



## HBFanatic (Dec 2, 2016)

10 in at beam. Big difference in stability


----------



## flysalt060 (Aug 5, 2012)

There is a Cayo for sale on here. Since I have lurked the other place forever, something happen to the Carolina skiff?


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

flysalt060 said:


> There is a Cayo for sale on here. Since I have lurked the other place forever, something happen to the Carolina skiff?


Yep


----------



## flysalt060 (Aug 5, 2012)

redchaser said:


> Yep


Damn!


----------



## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

redchaser said:


> Thanks Austin, I've spent a lot of time poling and fishing from a couple of different Caimen's. They impressed me with how they handle a chop and they pole just fine. Some folks think they are a little tippy, but I've spent a lot of time on a platform so I guess it jsut doesn't bother me.


Same offer if you want to spend some time on the little cayo skiff. You got a standing invitation any time you want to go. I'll give you a buzz over Christmas break.


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

jmrodandgun said:


> Same offer if you want to spend some time on the little cayo skiff. You got a standing invitation any time you want to go. I'll give you a buzz over Christmas break.


Hey I'm off the week between Christmas and New Year...


----------



## East Cape (Sep 3, 2015)

TX_Brad said:


> Actually looking at the measurements side by side, it surprises me that everyone says the Caimen is a drier ride vs the Waterman. Never been on a Waterman so be curious to know why. I love the Caimen and the ride, but wouldn't give up the space/versatility my Fury has for what I do.


I can give a reply if you/others want to know why the Caimen is a dry/great riding skiff?


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

East Cape said:


> I can give a reply if you/others want to know why the Caimen is a dry/great riding skiff?


Kevin, I’ve always been impressed with the ride of a Caimen for a boat of its size. Of course there are trade offs with all skiffs but you found a nice balance of ride and fish ability with it.


----------



## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

East Cape said:


> I can give a reply if you/others want to know why the Caimen is a dry/great riding skiff?


I'm not in the market for either skiff, but I'd love to hear what makes it dry/great riding, just to satisfy my own curiosity. I really like the Caimen but haven't ever been on one.


----------



## fatman (Nov 23, 2012)

redchaser said:


> Yep


I cry a little every time I see those pics....


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

ksymes said:


> I cry a little every time I see those pics....


 You were always good company when you joined me in her. Hopefully I'll have a new sled by, or shortly after the first of the year, and if it's something that's better in a chop it will be great for all the crappy weather you always bring with....


----------



## kjnengr (Jan 16, 2018)

redchaser said:


> Thanks Austin, I've spent a lot of time poling and fishing from a couple of different Caimen's. They impressed me with how they handle a chop and they pole just fine. Some folks think they are a little tippy, but I've spent a lot of time on a platform so I guess it jsut doesn't bother me.


They do quite well, supposing that you have a sane person driving the skiff.......


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

kjnengr said:


> They do quite well, supposing that you have a sane person driving the skiff.......


Well that eliminates someone we know...lol


----------



## TidewateR (Nov 11, 2009)

redchaser said:


> That will take me longer than getting a skiff built.


Ya but without a boat to fish, think of all the free time you’ll have to finish it!



kjnengr said:


> They do quite well, supposing that you have a sane person driving the skiff.......


turns out it drives pretty good with no one at the the helm


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

TidewateR said:


> Ya but without a boat to fish, think of all the free time you’ll have to finish it!
> 
> 
> 
> turns out it drives pretty good with no one at the the helm


Ouch


----------



## KimmerIII (Feb 9, 2017)

The waterman is not great in open water. It can beat your teeth in. You are limited on what days you can cross in it because you either have to go really slow so you don't break stuff off the boat on rough days or trim down to put the bow into it to break the waves and you can't do that on waves that are taller than a certain height. As with all things on a skiff, its a trade off because it is awesome in the marsh. It poles easy, easy to spin, and floats shallow. I would say it depends on how far your open water run is truthfully. I've never fished a caimen so I have no idea about it.

As for other boats, look at some Mavericks


----------



## YnR (Feb 16, 2015)

I’ve got a Caimen and really love it. It isn’t perfect but it polls well, is quiet, easy to maintain, rides surprisingly dry and well for its size. The thing I don’t like about the Caimen is that it doesn’t do well when drifting in a big chop and someone is on the bow. There isn’t enough buoyancy up front and causes the spray rails to slap or if it’s really choppy get some water on the bow. It does fine when underway because the speed keeps you out of the troughs but it’s definitely not a regular ocean going vessel. 

I was in your shoes a few years back. The Waterman is significantly bigger than the Caimen which can be good and bad. For me it ended up being a deal breaker since it wouldn’t fit in my garage. Had that not been the case I would have really had trouble deciding. 

For those wondering, price of a couple year old Waterman is about the same price as a new, similarly equipped Caimen. Both are great boats with equally excellent companies backing them.


----------



## Chas (Nov 30, 2017)

redchaser said:


> I fish the Louisiana Marsh, spend a lot of time poling quite shallow, but a lot of what I fish requires some significant open water crossings. I'm in the market for a new to me skiff. Given the choice of a Caimen or a Waterman 18, similarly rigged and priced close enough for it to not be a factor, which would you choose and why? Any other strong recommendations in the 18 foot range for those criteria, and again, why? Thanks.


Neither
Maverick 18hpxv. hands down!


----------



## kjnengr (Jan 16, 2018)

Chas said:


> Neither
> Maverick 18hpxv. hands down!


Ron is looking for a smaller boat than that.


----------



## KimmerIII (Feb 9, 2017)

The Mirage II is a good boat. We have one of those in addition to the waterman. It does well crossing open water and still poles relatively shallow. You can find an older one of those. They are 17' long and weigh 675 lbs.


----------



## kjnengr (Jan 16, 2018)

East Cape said:


> I can give a reply if you/others want to know why the Caimen is a dry/great riding skiff?


Interested minds are still wondering. 

I've enjoyed the few times I've fished out of a buddy's Caimen.


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

kjnengr said:


> Interested minds are still wondering.
> 
> I've enjoyed the few times I've fished out of a buddy's Caimen.


And those times weren't very dry, though no fault of the boat. He just drives crazy in crazy conditions.


----------



## IRLyRiser (Feb 14, 2007)

I’d recommend waterman. But it prob will be more money. Nothing wrong with the Caimen. I’d opt for one with hatches vs the solid deck I think they did for awhile. Are you the one who had a Carolina skiff get wrecked? If so, you caught a ton of fish out of it, you get your hands on either of these you’re going to absolutely love it.


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

IRLyRiser said:


> I’d recommend waterman. But it prob will be more money. Nothing wrong with the Caimen. I’d opt for one with hatches vs the solid deck I think they did for awhile. Are you the one who had a Carolina skiff get wrecked? If so, you caught a ton of fish out of it, you get your hands on either of these you’re going to absolutely love it.


Thanks, yeah I ran that Carolina Skiff for 18 years and can't count the fish that I and others have caught out of it, she had some serious mojo. Heartbroken that she's gone, but excited of the prospect of a nice new skiff.


----------



## KimmerIII (Feb 9, 2017)

I should clarify also our waterman is a Gordon. Not sure what changes were made to them after Tom went back to HB but the Gordon Waterman can beat your teeth in. However, once you get into the marsh, they are phenomenal. We use a Mirage II for rougher days and it does well. You can find those online cheaper than you can the newer stuff obviously. The guts of that boat are simple and its a well riding, well poling boat.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

KimmerIII said:


> The waterman is not great in open water. It can beat your teeth in. You are limited on what days you can cross in it because you either have to go really slow so you don't break stuff off the boat on rough days or trim down to put the bow into it to break the waves and you can't do that on waves that are taller than a certain height. As with all things on a skiff, its a trade off because it is awesome in the marsh. It poles easy, easy to spin, and floats shallow. I would say it depends on how far your open water run is truthfully. I've never fished a caimen so I have no idea about it.
> 
> As for other boats, look at some Mavericks


To be fair the waterman wasn't designed to be an open water boat. It handles the skinny water exceptionally well and is capable enough to cross open water when needed. The part about beating your teeth is in true for a lot of skiffs and has other variables to be considered, such as the person driving the boat and the conditions you choose to cross open water. If you are looking for a skiff that can cross open water frequently something with more deadrise would be ideal. But then you have your trade-off in the skinny stuff.


----------



## junkin35 (Nov 20, 2011)

kjnengr said:


> They do quite well, supposing that you have a sane person driving the skiff.......


Easy Lightning..... I'm right here.



redchaser said:


> And those times weren't very dry, though no fault of the boat. He just drives crazy in crazy conditions.


Thank you for the compliment. 
I think.


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

junkin35 said:


> Easy Lightning..... I'm right here.
> 
> 
> Thank you for the compliment.
> I think.


I know you have that custom throttle that only has 2 settings....don't go and go like hell. Wouldn't change a thing about you though brother.


----------



## kjnengr (Jan 16, 2018)

junkin35 said:


> Easy Lightning..... I'm right here.
> 
> 
> Thank you for the compliment.
> I think.


Took you long enough..... Love you buddy. You know I like you and your skiff. 

Still waiting on that reply from @East Cape though.....


----------



## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

Interesting to hear all the comments about the waterman beating your teeth in. Ive ran mine in some gnarly stuffy coming back in from atlantic ocean in St. Augustine fl. Ive always been able to get the boat on top of the swell and run almost full throttle. Ive had multiple comments on how well it eats swell. Ive fished a caimen as well and they are killer boats on pole, but i dont think it rode nearly as well in sloppy stuff. I run a tiller gordon with lodge bench seat in the middle.


----------



## Caleb.Esparza (Jan 31, 2016)

Any skiff (Marquesa, HPX-V, Vantage, Cayo, Chittum, etc.) and even a 32’ Contender will beat your teeth in if you drive like a d*ckhead and/or lack basic seamanship skills. I’ve been in some legitimately heavy conditions well offshore in an 18’ waterman and I won’t say it wasn’t a slower ride in, but we made it back without any issues.


----------



## hookemdano (Feb 9, 2007)

Financekid1 said:


> Interesting to hear all the comments about the waterman beating your teeth in. Ive ran mine in some gnarly stuffy coming back in from atlantic ocean in St. Augustine fl. Ive always been able to get the boat on top of the swell and run almost full throttle. Ive had multiple comments on how well it eats swell. Ive fished a caimen as well and they are killer boats on pole, but i dont think it rode nearly as well in sloppy stuff. I run a tiller gordon with lodge bench seat in the middle.



There is a huge difference between a swell and the washing machine type of chop that is the norm in the northern GOM. The waterman is a great redfish boat. But definitely not the best choice when it’s crappy or for tarpon out front. But I still think it’s the best boat for me and redfishing up this way. And I say that after owning one for 12 years and fishing several other skiffs in the last 20 years.


----------



## KimmerIII (Feb 9, 2017)

el9surf said:


> To be fair the waterman wasn't designed to be an open water boat. It handles the skinny water exceptionally well and is capable enough to cross open water when needed. The part about beating your teeth is in true for a lot of skiffs and has other variables to be considered, such as the person driving the boat and the conditions you choose to cross open water. If you are looking for a skiff that can cross open water frequently something with more deadrise would be ideal. But then you have your trade-off in the skinny stuff.


Very true. Flat bottom sponson boat are awesome in the marsh but not so much on the ride there.


----------



## kjnengr (Jan 16, 2018)

To those who have been watching......

Redchaser Ron had the opportunity to get a good deal on an 18' Gordon Waterman. A buddy of his that was looking to sell his skiff was able to make it work with Ron.

Anyone that knows Redchaser personally, knows he's one of the finest people on this planet. That being the case, another friend of his who was travelling from the Keys to Louisiana to do some hunting/fishing was willing to tow the boat with him to delivery it for Ron. When another friend and I heard that he was taking delivery on our end of the state, we weaseled our way in witness Ron receiving his boat and squeeze in a fishing trip.

Ron picked up some chicken from da hood for boat snacks and made his way over Saturday evening and this is what he saw.










After we all drooled over Ron's purchase we went into town and grabbed a bite to eat. Sunday morning, it was time to get her wet.

The conditions were just kinda ok for sight fishing redfish.










The three of us took turns between switching between the casing and poling platform, but luckily I was the first to drag a fish over her gunnel in Louisiana waters. She was baptized appropriately with her first Louisiana fish being a high floating bull.



















As the day wore on, we all caught fish,





































and a good time was had by all.

The deal, transportation of the skiff, and inaugural trip are all testament that good things do happen to good people, and there is no one more deserving of it than Mr. Redchaser.

Thanks for having me Ron, and I can't wait to pole you on it again someday.


----------



## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Pics of chicken?


----------



## KimmerIII (Feb 9, 2017)

Pretty boat!


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

jmrodandgun said:


> Pics of chicken?


But of course


----------



## TidewateR (Nov 11, 2009)

Those FL tags are offensive! & not one flat bill on the boat...it’s a wonder y’all caught fish.


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

TidewateR said:


> Those FL tags are offensive! & not one flat bill on the boat...it’s a wonder y’all caught fish.


It will lose the carpet bagger look as soon as I get my La registration.


----------



## kjnengr (Jan 16, 2018)

TidewateR said:


> Those FL tags are offensive! & not one flat bill on the boat...it’s a wonder y’all caught fish.


Only because Ron was on the boat. As Brett so eloquently put it, he and have sucked the mojo out of that place. To be honest, that's by far the best trip I've had there in MANY years.


----------



## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

kjnengr said:


> Only because Ron was on the boat.


He should thank that righteous yard bird.


----------



## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

Chicken looks good, but I would do some work on the hands to achieve Instagram hand model status.

Nice ride!


----------

