# dumbbell eyes question



## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

I use lots of beadchain, lead, and other material eyes -of every size from micro all the way up to where you might substitute a split shot... I tailor the size of the eye to the size of the hook and just how much additional weight I want in a given pattern... That said, many prefer the machined brass eyes in the various colors available to the lead eyes I still use. Brass, of course is lighter in weight than lead - but lead eyes lend themselves to painting and I do like eyes that are really noticeable.... You'll have to decide for yourself which to use. The start I've long recommended for my fly-tying students is to look closely at any fly you really like (or at least would like to try tying...). There's usually a reason (sink rate, balance, attitude of the fly as it settles between strips) why the various components were used to come up with a finished fly and using the same materials when you tie a fly will at least be a starting point...

Since most of my fly tying was commercial I've been buying materials in bulk for years and years... I'm able to buy my lead eyes by the thousand per size --- I can't do that with brass eyes at all (or with any of the other fancier eyes you'll find in shops) so that might color my remarks....


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I mostly use bead chain in various sizes. Lead eyes might be better if you need to get the fly down in a hurry. I personally don't use lead much.

I use the xs tungsten scud weights on some of my baitfish patterns. They don't twist as much and are completely weedless, same for cone heads.

Most of the time I know which sizes of bead chain, scud or lead I want based on the pattern and where / how it will be fished. I also often tie the same fly in a variety of different weights so I can cover different depths. All of this is trial and error. You will figure out what works.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

You can use standard bead chain eyes, going on the light side with your flies sink requirement. There are some situations where the flies can accomidate the large beadchain as well (tho not often and not many flies can use them), if you can find it. You can also buy the inexpensive painted lead dumbbell eyes (white, yellow, chartreuse, red....) with a black dot in the center for a pupil. If you have the time, you can also buy unpainted lead dumbbell eyes and paint them yourself with fingernail polish and a black dot for the pupil, once tied on. I even do that occasionally. Between the 3, I've literally caught a ton of fish that way, plus it's cheaper.

You can also keep an eye out occasionally for some high-end eyes on ebay when something decent at a great price goes up for sale. Also, if it's the eyes you are after and not necessarily the weight, you can nix the lead eyes and just clue on some very small epoxy eyes.

I'm not a fan of brass since it chaulks up in the salt, but can be used in the salt as long as you clear coat it with something and let dry, after it is tied in but before you lay down your materials. Same with brass bead chain.

On a related subject, remember to match the weighted eyes and hook weight to the fly line weight you are throwing them with. You can turn a great casting rig into a flailing buggy whip if you use a fly that is too heavy (but not the other way around)! I can't preach that enough. 


Ted Haas


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## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

What is a general rule of thumb for weight issues you discussed. I am tossing an 8 weight, one with 9wt line and the other with 8wt line. I purchased those dai-riki 930 #2 as an all purpose hook.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

mpl1978 said:


> What is a general rule of thumb for weight issues you discussed. I am tossing an 8 weight, one with 9wt line and the other with 8wt line. I purchased those dai-riki 930 #2 as an all purpose hook.


Ideally with that #2 hook, with an 8wt, bead chain to ex sm (extra small) lead eyes is what I recommend, but I wouldn't go heavier than a size sm. On the 9wt line, size sm and under is ideal, but I wouldn't try casting anything heavier than a size med. Those Dai-Riki 930's are nice and light weight, but the 1/0 is heavy, so be careful not to use a size med lead eyes on that hook, unless you are dredging for big fish in deep water, then open up your casting loops.

Then, there are other ways to get down, like sink tips or sink lines, without going to too heavy of a fly, which can be easier to cast in the long run for those situations needed. Also be careful about adding too much epoxy or UV resins with weighted flies, that only adds more weight to the problem. So if you want to use resins to build up head or body bulk, then down size your lead eyes size or go to bead chain or epoxy eyes.


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## CrappieFisherman (Mar 15, 2015)

In addition to weight, eyes, and eye placement has a large impact on fly action. Heavier eyes help make the fly to sink more quickly. This can make a more erratic retrieve when stripped quickly. Conversely, lighter weights still help a fly to sink, but will also result in less pronounced movement when stripped...which can be good or bad.

Additionally, some species tend to key in on eyes for their strikes, such as hickory shad. Knowing predatory preference can help you to decide how important realistic eyes are.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Forgot to mention one other small item about tying with eyes (particularly bead chain eyes)... The larger they are the more water they push when the fly is stripped through the water. In some cases I deliberately use the larger sizes of bead chain eyes for that very factor. In dark waters I believe the fish can actally feel the fly moving nearby.... Of course the hook still has to match the eye size, mostly....


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

lemaymiami said:


> I use lots of beadchain, lead, and other material eyes -of every size from micro all the way up to where you might substitute a split shot... I tailor the size of the eye to the size of the hook and just how much additional weight I want in a given pattern... That said, many prefer the machined brass eyes in the various colors available to the lead eyes I still use. Brass, of course is lighter in weight than lead - but lead eyes lend themselves to painting and I do like eyes that are really noticeable.... You'll have to decide for yourself which to use. The start I've long recommended for my fly-tying students is to look closely at any fly you really like (or at least would like to try tying...). There's usually a reason (sink rate, balance, attitude of the fly as it settles between strips) why the various components were used to come up with a finished fly and using the same materials when you tie a fly will at least be a starting point...
> 
> Since most of my fly tying was commercial I've been buying materials in bulk for years and years... I'm able to buy my lead eyes by the thousand per size --- I can't do that with brass eyes at all (or with any of the other fancier eyes you'll find in shops) so that might color my remarks....


http://www.flyfishingsupplier.com/index.php?id=1803 Bob try this site the minimum oder is 500 pieces and its not expensive


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## bjtripp83 (Aug 10, 2015)

couple thoughts for what theyre worth

if it makes sense you can add weight w/ wire wrapping and lose the eyes. just another option i didnt find out about until later.

guy from charleston who produces TroutEye jig heads makes his living off the premise that the eyes matter.


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## CrappieFisherman (Mar 15, 2015)

bjtripp83 said:


> couple thoughts for what theyre worth
> 
> if it makes sense you can add weight w/ wire wrapping and lose the eyes. just another option i didnt find out about until later.
> 
> guy from charleston who produces TroutEye jig heads makes his living off the premise that the eyes matter.


I use this technique for my deceivers...helps to get them just a bit under the surface.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

bjtripp83 said:


> couple thoughts for what theyre worth
> 
> if it makes sense you can add weight w/ wire wrapping and lose the eyes. just another option i didnt find out about until later.
> 
> guy from charleston who produces TroutEye jig heads makes his living off the premise that the eyes matter.


It's been my experience that eyes do matter. I've tested that theory too many times. The however is, there are some flies in certain situations, water clarity and certain species, that you can get away with no eyes. But I am mostly referring to inshore saltwater species where I will go out of my way to make sure the fly has eyes.

Yes, you can use lead wire wraps and then glue-on epoxy or stick-on eyes or tie-in bead chain eyes.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

In saltwater I use dumbbell eyes to get it down. Especially with fish crashing bait
I learned my lesson years ago while fishing off Hilton Head with Raz Reed the Sage Rep. We where casting to little tunnies and his fly with dumbbell eyes got down to the fish while my bead chain eyes stayed on the surface. He caught a 10 lber that I photographed and it was published. I caught nothing


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

permitchaser said:


> In saltwater I use dumbbell eyes to get it down. Especially with fish crashing bait
> I learned my lesson years ago while fishing off Hilton Head with Raz Reed the Sage Rep. We where casting to little tunnies and his fly with dumbbell eyes got down to the fish while my bead chain eyes stayed on the surface. He caught a 10 lber that I photographed and it was published. I caught nothing


That's why I use intermediate sink lines for offshore fishing almost exclusively, if not fast sinking lines. Yes and weighted flies do help too. It's tough to stand-out offshore being a bay anchovy or sardine when your fly is in the mix of the bait school up top. The predators surround those bait schools from the sides and underneath the bait schools. Those guys using floating lines and sub-surface flies, I always tell them to throw off to the sides of the schools. But going deeper, under the schools, gets you under the bait and small predatory fish like spanish macks to get to the big tunnies.


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

Backwater said:


> That's why I use intermediate sink lines for offshore fishing almost exclusively, if not fast sinking lines. Yes and weighted flies do help too. It's tough to stand-out offshore being a bay anchovy or sardine when your fly is in the mix of the bait school up top. The predators surround those bait schools from the sides and underneath the bait schools. Those guys using floating lines and sub-surface flies, I always tell them to throw off to the sides of the schools. But going deeper, under the schools, gets you under the bait and small predatory fish like spanish macks to get to the big tunnies.


What lines are you using?


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

All of my heavier rods (10wt and up) are set up with full intermediate lines - My preference is either Scientific Anglers or Rio (these days mostly Rio intermediates since I can get them cheaper - they hold up well from 10wt up to 12wts - and they're used on big, big tarpon mostly in small rivers....).

I'm sure Backwater will chime in here and I'll look forward to hearing which line make he prefers...


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

lemaymiami said:


> All of my heavier rods (10wt and up) are set up with full intermediate lines - My preference is either Scientific Anglers or Rio (these days mostly Rio intermediates since I can get them cheaper - they hold up well from 10wt up to 12wts - and they're used on big, big tarpon mostly in small rivers....).
> 
> I'm sure Backwater will chime in here and I'll look forward to hearing which line make he prefers...


Capt LeMay, I normally like to fish the 9wt also in full intermediate or intermediate tip. I can't say I use intermediate lines exclusively anymore with 12wts, since I use a sub-surface fly pattern for a few species, including some poons. But always carry another rod or spool wloaded with a clear intermediate line if I'm looking for 12wt fish.

SA and Cortland, I'm not a huge fan of the braided cores of the SA's, tho they do keep the line stiff when the deck get's hot and helps to shoot it. I just am not crazy how it feels when slipping thru my fingers when I shoot it (don't like the sound of it either. Still, it's good stuff.

I haven't owned any Rio, Airflo or Teeny in the intermediates, but have thrown/fished them a bunch on other people's rods. Nothing negative to say about those. Nothing that was impressive to come in mind, tho both the Rio's and the Airflo were not bad at all.

I seem to keep migrating back to the Cortland Tropic Plus for my intermediate lines. I think some of my full sink lines are SA tho.

On another subject..... Guys and gals.... Fishing full sink lines opens up a whole new world of fly fishing for ya! I'm referring to "full" sink lines. It requires rods with a little more backbone than those rods that weigh nothing and feels like false casting a piece of dried spaghetti. No, I'm talking about a rod with a slight bit more flex and a heavier butt section to help lift the line out of the water. The trick is to learn to lift or roll cast the line out of the water, roll cast it out to put the fly up on the top, then water load the rod slowly to lift the line back up off the water and into the air. Once you've mastered that technique, you are ready to start dredging for big fish that hold deep and/or hold on the bottom of strong currents. We'll have to start a new thread on that subject someday soon.

Ted Haas


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