# Simms Purchased by Vista Outdoor



## j_f (Dec 15, 2021)

BrownDog said:


> https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/business/vista-outdoor-announces-agreement-to-purchase-bozeman-based-simms-fishing-products/article_5bd9b01d-aec4-56eb-84eb-2d29f9b8f16a.amp.html


I'm not gonna say a buyout is an inherently bad thing, but after scrolling through their "portfolio of brands," I can't say there was a single one that made me think "Man, that company's products are WAY BETTER than they were a decade ago."


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## spc7669 (Apr 15, 2015)

j_f said:


> I'm not gonna say a buyout is an inherently bad thing, but after scrolling through their "portfolio of brands," I can't say there was a single one that made me think "Man, that company's products are WAY BETTER than they were a decade ago."


You said it. But I was thinking the same thing.


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## boyscout (Aug 17, 2020)

Im in the industry and not a fan of vista. Think ammo and primer shortage.


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## Indoman (Jul 25, 2013)

Read the article 2x and saw no mention of ensuring quality is maintained. Just growth and shareholder performance. If the CEO changes in the first 12-24 months that will tell me a lot.


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## j_f (Dec 15, 2021)

Indoman said:


> Just growth and shareholder performance.


Read “Coming to an Academy Sports near you!”


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## Indoman (Jul 25, 2013)

Ha . Just re read. Meant shareholder value. And you’re right. Sadly.


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## Zika (Aug 6, 2015)

Never fear. The same great quality will still be there. Just like Cabelas after the BPS's merger.


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## Capt.Ron (Mar 5, 2014)

I was out when they started the whole glitter boat gang stuff.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Trashy. What else is going to go to shit this year?


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

That leaves what, Aftco?


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## boyscout (Aug 17, 2020)

Kuiu is thinking of going into fishing. Great fabrics, but odd fits sometimes.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Unfortunate to hear they're my favorite sandals and shorts.


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## Surffshr (Dec 28, 2017)

Fuck kuiu. Overpriced shit for old fat white men sitting in blinds “hunting”.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

This is AWESOME for Simms.

If I had a company with $13 mil in annual sales and someone offers 15 times more than that - I would sell in 3 seconds flat too. 

Vista will shizcan their quality by shipping production to china. You'll soon be able to buy their crap on Ali-Express for a fraction of the price here.


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## Paul Mills (Mar 26, 2018)

KC looking to spend some $$ in retirement 

Simms likely got hurt by Covid like a lot of US manufacturers.

Who knows.

I suspect what will happen is Vista Outdoors will sell direct to retailers and those with the agencies for Simms (outside of the US) will feel the hurt. So that will be the likes of Manic Tackle in Australasia and Flyfish Europe (for Europe). I for one, will be happy if that is what transpires. 

Thankfully I don't fish Scott rods or use Simms gear so I can sit on the sideline and watch the drama play out. 🍻


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

@Smackdaddy53 - that didn't take long


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## SS06 (Apr 6, 2021)

Well Bass Pro/Cabelas has done a great job killing several brands...let's see what happens to this Iconic brand....


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## Paul Mills (Mar 26, 2018)

Simms T-shirts have been made in China for years. 

Just for context.


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## Drifter (Dec 13, 2018)

DuckNut said:


> This is AWESOME for Simms.
> 
> If I had a company with $13 mil in annual sales and someone offers 15 times more than that - I would sell in 3 seconds flat too.
> 
> Vista will shizcan their quality by shipping production to china. You'll soon be able to buy their crap on Ali-Express for a fraction of the price here.


How do you know they were only doing 13 million in sales?


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

Paul Mills said:


> KC looking to spend some $$ in retirement
> 
> Simms likely got hurt by Covid like a lot of US manufacturers.
> 
> ...


After30 years, I would say that KC has had a great run!


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## RaspberryPatch (Dec 17, 2016)

Who knows what will happen with the change. I believe the Airflo change was a downgrade, at least for the spey community, and a few smaller companies who also used their factory to build their lines, but is this the fault of the new owner, but the new head who took over - and shrieked their focus..

Scott like all companies update their product lines, but I would not attribute the changes are bad, especially as a function of the new mega owner.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

My Simms sandals are already made in China and the shorts Malaysia so there probably won't be much of a change.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

Indoman said:


> Ha . Just re read. Meant shareholder value. And you’re right. Sadly.


Shareholder value. When you hear that, it's good news. If you're a large shareholder. 

Hopefully, some new companies will fill the void.


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## mooker82 (Jun 25, 2015)

The higher end waders were the only products still made in the US. I was really disappointed to learn a $500+ wading jacket was imported. I finally ended up with the Orvis Pro jacket and have to say they are killing it with their Pro stuff. It’s still expensive and imported though.


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## Capt.Ron (Mar 5, 2014)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Trashy. What else is going to go to shit this year?


Folsom has low expectations for models, so there’s a chance……lol


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## DBBLHaulin'ShotCallin' (Feb 12, 2018)

Simms product quality will decline and other brands will fill in where they left off... 

Duck Camp has already came on strong in the fishing industry in the last year, almost as if they maybe saw this coming? 🤨


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

DBBLHaulin'ShotCallin' said:


> Simms product quality will decline and other brands will fill in where they left off...
> 
> Duck Camp has already came on strong in the fishing industry in the last year, almost as if they maybe saw this coming? 🤨


 Only the Simms G3 and G4 waders will be missed! Can’t say that for their lower priced models.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

The Fin said:


> Patagonia River Tractor (Danner design, made in Oregon) have always been the best wading boot on the market. Other than Simms G3 and G4 waders, the lower priced models won’t be missed.


[email protected] Patagonia.


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

Backcountry 16 said:


> [email protected] Patagonia.


Removed Patagonia reference! I just remembered the last pissing match, I just want to give it a break.


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## TheDude (Dec 14, 2010)

DuckNut said:


> This is AWESOME for Simms.
> 
> If I had a company with $13 mil in annual sales and someone offers 15 times more than that - I would sell in 3 seconds flat too.
> 
> Vista will shizcan their quality by shipping production to china. You'll soon be able to buy their crap on Ali-Express for a fraction of the price here.


Simms does way more than $13 million in annual sales.


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

TheDude said:


> Simms does way more than $13 million in annual sales.


Report that I saw was $44 million!


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

Drifter said:


> How do you know they were only doing 13 million in sales?


I’ve seen a reported $44 million, not sure where the $13 million came from.


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## TheDude (Dec 14, 2010)

The Fin said:


> Report that I saw was $44 million!


Curious where you saw that. I would guess significantly higher than that, particularly based on firsthand knowledge of revenue of other companies in the fishing space, the reported sales price, and typical valuation/EBIDTA multipliers in the outdoors industry


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## Tailer (Jan 10, 2017)

The writing was on the wall when they dove head-first into the bass market; they were spreading their legs for potential capital/buyout and they found a suitor.



Paul Mills said:


> Thankfully I don't fish Scott rods or use Simms gear so I can sit on the sideline and watch the drama play out. 🍻


Scott sold out?


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Yeah, I don't see a 15x revenue to sale price multiplier on this, especially with the market and interest rate conditions. 4 to 5x is more realistic, that would land around the 44m number.

I don't buy a lot of their stuff, but I mostly also fish warm water and tropical. I like the smaller brands - Skinny Water, Free Fly (though they are getting big).

One brand I completely love is Kuhl. Best made materials out there. I find lots of fishing clothes are made too big and are baggy. Kuhl is tapered with stitching that allows for free movement. They don't make specific fishing gear like waders, but pants, shorts, shirts.


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## Bonesonthebrain (Jan 2, 2020)

Lots of weird information in this thread. Here is an article on the potential sale. But no one in their right mind would buy a company with $44M in sales for $192M, the $44M is definitely wrong, my guess is 2022 will be ~$60M. The article states sales were up 15% annually for the last 3 years and 2022 is expected to be higher than that.









Vista Outdoor To Acquire Simms Fishing Products | SGB Media Online


Vista Outdoor Inc. announced the acquisition of Simms Fishing Products for a purchase price of $192.5 million.




sgbonline.com


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## TheDude (Dec 14, 2010)

coconutgroves said:


> Yeah, I don't see a 15x revenue to sale price multiplier on this, especially with the market and interest rate conditions. 4 to 5x is more realistic, that would land around the 44m number.
> 
> I don't buy a lot of their stuff, but I mostly also fish warm water and tropical. I like the smaller brands - Skinny Water, Free Fly (though they are getting big).
> 
> One brand I completely love is Kuhl. Best made materials out there. I find lots of fishing clothes are made too big and are baggy. Kuhl is tapered with stitching that allows for free movement. They don't make specific fishing gear like waders, but pants, shorts, shirts.


No one would by a company for 4-5X revenue. 4-5X EBIDTA is more likely, though a few recent fishing company buyouts have been rumored to be in the 10X multiplier range, which I think is absurd considering how inflated sales in the entire industry were for 2 years due to COVID.

I do agree with you on the Kuhl stuff. They used to attend ICAST (didn't see them there this year), and I was hopeful that they would make a push into fishing, but that never happened. The fishing apparel market is pretty saturated though, especially with about a million 'lifestyle' brands.


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## fatman (Nov 23, 2012)

I've heard that Grundens is entering the wader market, due to some hires of ex-Simms designers.

Long range, the glitter boat market is MUCH bigger than the fly tossing community.


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## j_f (Dec 15, 2021)

coconutgroves said:


> Yeah, I don't see a 15x revenue to sale price multiplier on this, especially with the market and interest rate conditions. 4 to 5x is more realistic, that would land around the 44m number.
> 
> I don't buy a lot of their stuff, but I mostly also fish warm water and tropical. I like the smaller brands - Skinny Water, Free Fly (though they are getting big).
> 
> One brand I completely love is Kuhl. Best made materials out there. I find lots of fishing clothes are made too big and are baggy. Kuhl is tapered with stitching that allows for free movement. They don't make specific fishing gear like waders, but pants, shorts, shirts.


I hear you on the fit; that’s paramount for me also— good fit, clean lines, and no extraneous panels, gussets, billows or pockets. I like Marsh Wear for that reason— “normal” looking clothes made from technical fabrics.


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## Paul Mills (Mar 26, 2018)

Tailer said:


> Scott sold out?


No.

My opinion however, company's like Fly Fish Europe will likely be affected by Vista selling direct. FFE are the middle man. FFE also have the Scott agency for Europe, so if they go under, Scott will likely need to go direct to retailers there or find another middle man. My point was there is always a flow on effect.

Rumor has it the director of FFE has already bean offered a job. FFE will no longer do Simms. That is three days after the sale so the wheels were moving well before the announcement.

Those who are saying it is only the high Simms waders that were made in the USA are not lying. Been like that for years. They made good waders, don't be fooled by the rest of the product line.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

The Fin said:


> Removed Patagonia reference! I just remembered the last pissing match, I just want to give it a break.


Go woke go broke


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## spc7669 (Apr 15, 2015)

DuckNut said:


> This is AWESOME for Simms.
> 
> If I had a company with $13 mil in annual sales and someone offers 15 times more than that - I would sell in 3 seconds flat too.
> 
> Vista will shizcan their quality by shipping production to china. You'll soon be able to buy their crap on Ali-Express for a fraction of the price here.


Check your Simms gear labels. Some of it is already made in China. I had already stopped buying their stuff because of it.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

spc7669 said:


> Check your Simms gear labels. Some of it is already made in China. I had already stopped buying their stuff because of it.


Been that way long as I can remember and it never thrilled me. I love the waders though.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

boyscout said:


> Kuiu is thinking of going into fishing. Great fabrics, but odd fits sometimes.


I love my Kuiu gear. I’ve taken a couple of their customer surveys and both times I suggested getting into fishing clothing and technical gear


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

I'm not aware of any fly fishing apparel made here. I have a hard time paying $100 for plastic shirts or pants because they have some brands label on them. I simply don't do it, I only buy on sale, from sierra trading post or if someone shares their pro deal.


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## spc7669 (Apr 15, 2015)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Been that way long as I can remember and it never thrilled me. I love the waders though.


Their waders were the best. Nobody even close. Since I don’t trout fish anymore I haven’t needed any new ones. I’ve started buying my fishing shirts and shorts from Kryptek. Not made in USA, but not in China and veteran owned. That’s enough to get my business.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

spc7669 said:


> Their waders were the best. Nobody even close. Since I don’t trout fish anymore I haven’t needed any new ones. I’ve started buying my fishing shirts and shorts from Kryptek. Not made in USA, but not in China and veteran owned. That’s enough to get my business.


I have Simms G4 Pro and G4Z waders and theg have last years without issues. Made in Bozeman, Montana USA.


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## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

Their sandals and old guide series shirts were nice. They haven’t had sandals in stock since 2020 so when the last string on my last pair crap out I guess I will be looking elsewhere.

i always loved their “buy local” shirt that was made in Thailand or Malaysia.


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## jonterr (Mar 24, 2013)

Surffshr said:


> Fuck kuiu. Overpriced shit for old fat white men sitting in blinds “hunting”.


Please
Say what you think🤪


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## SS06 (Apr 6, 2021)

Surffshr said:


> Fuck kuiu. Overpriced shit for old fat white men sitting in blinds “hunting”.


I take offense to this statement...but it is your Constituitional right to voice it...I'm an old fat white guy who has killed a lot of animals while sitting in blinds...on several continents...


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## Paul Mills (Mar 26, 2018)

Wasn't that long ago Simms purchased The River’s Edge which gave them a direct insight into the retail market.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

SS06 said:


> I take offense to this statement...but it is your Constituitional right to voice it...I'm an old fat white guy who has killed a lot of animals while sitting in blinds...on several continents...


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

TheDude said:


> No one would by a company for 4-5X revenue. 4-5X EBIDTA is more likely, though a few recent fishing company buyouts have been rumored to be in the 10X multiplier range, which I think is absurd considering how inflated sales in the entire industry were for 2 years due to COVID.
> 
> I do agree with you on the Kuhl stuff. They used to attend ICAST (didn't see them there this year), and I was hopeful that they would make a push into fishing, but that never happened. The fishing apparel market is pretty saturated though, especially with about a million 'lifestyle' brands.


There you go throwing out EBIDTA.... I was keeping it simple man! 

Re Kuhl - my only issue with them is they have too many options. And local stores only carry a handful. They do have Kuhl stores in a few cities (San Francisco, Seattle) - I would love to visit one, though I might need all day there!


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## Surffshr (Dec 28, 2017)

Kuhl has a pile of options and the fit isn't always the same between them. The 2 styles I wear excel at all day comfort for my balls here in the SoTX heat. If you're outside a lot in professional settings you should try them. I fish in other styles of long pants that aren't really appropriate for work.


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## jboriol (Jan 2, 2010)

BrownDog said:


> https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/business/vista-outdoor-announces-agreement-to-purchase-bozeman-based-simms-fishing-products/article_5bd9b01d-aec4-56eb-84eb-2d29f9b8f16a.amp.html


Orvis, Patagonia, and now Simms. Selling out or pandering…oh well. Bye


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## ebr (Sep 6, 2019)

spc7669 said:


> Their waders were the best. Nobody even close


I have a 22 year old set still going strong. Now, they only get used like 5 days a year (when I go to Montana or Colorado) but still held up remarkably well.


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

ebr said:


> I have a 22 year old set still going strong. Now, they only get used like 5 days a year (when I go to Montana or Colorado) but still held up remarkably well.


At that rate, they’ll make 50!👍


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## Renegade (Aug 30, 2015)

Nothing is changing. Management, practices and employees all stay the same. Everything stays in Bozeman.

this is just an equity buy out. If your favorite companies aren’t already under a primary private equity like this one, they will be soon.
That includes your boats.


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## DodsonFlyFishing (Apr 1, 2018)

Paul Mills said:


> KC looking to spend some $$ in retirement
> 
> Simms likely got hurt by Covid like a lot of US manufacturers.
> 
> ...


More time for political adds with Greg


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## DodsonFlyFishing (Apr 1, 2018)

Look for more political involvement, adds with Gianforte, and road-blocking the efforts to limit traffic on over used rivers. KC is not retiring….


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## Buffalo Bob (Aug 28, 2019)

boyscout said:


> Kuiu is thinking of going into fishing. Great fabrics, but odd fits sometimes.


Agree. I started buying some KUIU hunting clothes last year. Sizing / Fit is questionable (MO) and seems to take a return (or 2) to get correct.


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## Griggs (Apr 25, 2019)

Surffshr said:


> Fuck kuiu. Overpriced shit for old fat white men sitting in blinds “hunting”.


You have no idea what you are talking about. Funny, coming from a guy who has probably never hunted a mountain in his life (assumption) enjoy all the hard work you do in your boat. I’m not sure if you are trying to dis hunters, old white dudes or Kuiu….maybe all 3. The gear is expensive but when you are stuck on the side of a mountain in 15 deg weather with a 20 mph head wind you will be glad you have this pricey gear. I’m not a fanboy of any brand and I am an old fat guy,who is also fair in pigmentation, but I trust the gear I spend my hard earned money on. You can just start your hells bay and head home if thing gets bad, be home in an hour or two and crack a cold one. When you are 2-3 miles back on foot at 9000 ft…..no ground blind lol….you’ll be happy you paid extra for the good stuff.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

Buffalo Bob said:


> Agree. I started buying some KUIU hunting clothes last year. Sizing / Fit is questionable (MO) and seems to take a return (or 2) to get correct.


I've been wearing Kuiu gear for about 4 years now. Their gear is generally cut for "athletic" builds which according to the lady I talked with when ordering my Guide DCS jacket, means it runs a little small. I normally wear an XL but the Kuiu rep sized me for a 2XL. When ordering gear from them, definitely pays to talk to the one of the reps on the phone. They've been good with getting the sizing right.

Incidentally, I have a lot of Simms clothing and it tends to run on the small size. There does seem to be a lot of inconsistency in the sizing of the shirts from style to style.


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## SS06 (Apr 6, 2021)

Griggs you hit the nail on that one! 
Caribou camp 100 miles outside Illiamna, AK in 04 or 05, Kuiu was not around back then, but I had purchased the best Goretex ECWCS mil spec jacket, bibs, liner, etc...3 days of rain, snow, ice and 70mph winds....storm blew in from nowhere, 6 mile hike across tundra to get back to tent...quality gear can/will save your life


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## fatman (Nov 23, 2012)

SS06 said:


> Griggs you hit the nail on that one!
> Caribou camp 100 miles outside Illiamna, AK in 04 or 05, Kuiu was not around back then, but I had purchased the best Goretex ECWCS mil spec jacket, bibs, liner, etc...3 days of rain, snow, ice and 70mph winds....storm blew in from nowhere, 6 mile hike across tundra to get back to tent...quality gear can/will save your life


I remember when Sleeping Indian wool was the gold standard. Man, that stuff was heavy....


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## Sailfish_WC (Mar 7, 2019)

Griggs said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about. Funny, coming from a guy who has probably never hunted a mountain in his life (assumption) enjoy all the hard work you do in your boat. I’m not sure if you are trying to dis hunters, old white dudes or Kuiu….maybe all 3. The gear is expensive but when you are stuck on the side of a mountain in 15 deg weather with a 20 mph head wind you will be glad you have this pricey gear. I’m not a fanboy of any brand and I am an old fat guy,who is also fair in pigmentation, but I trust the gear I spend my hard earned money on. You can just start your hells bay and head home if thing gets bad, be home in an hour or two and crack a cold one. When you are 2-3 miles back on foot at 9000 ft…..no ground blind lol….you’ll be happy you paid extra for the good stuff.


Went to CO for rifle season last winter. 
Two buddy’s had KUIU clothing
Their clothing looked more like it was made for a crisp, fall morning in Georgia. 
It was 15 degrees. 
they both said it was the warmest clothing they’ve ever had.


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## Half Shell (Jul 19, 2016)

spc7669 said:


> Since I don’t trout fish anymore I haven’t needed any new ones. I’ve started buying my fishing shirts and shorts from Kryptek. Not made in USA, but not in China and veteran owned. That’s enough to get my business.


Kryptek was started and is owned by Harry "Butch" Whiting who I served with in 1999-2000. We flew AH-64 Apache helicopters and Butch is a big-time hunter. He is not just some corporate guy with no knowledge of hunting. Extremely smart and hard working guy, everyone knew he was on a fast track to General but he got out as a Major and went in with a guy on a transportation company and then founded Kryptek.


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## ebr (Sep 6, 2019)

@Half Shell thank you for your service.


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## mt hwy (Mar 18, 2021)

In the mountains for 30 years, hunting, fishing, trapping, skiing, regularly. My gear crosses over from activity to activity and if it doesn't hold up it shreds relatively quickly. I tended to shred most Simms gear, but I like their fishing shirts - they seem to function fairly well and look good. Waders - I went to Orvis a while ago. Simms did sell, kind of surprised me. Sitka gear seemed to set off a flurry of other outdoor gear manufacturers like some mentioned. There is lots of good stuff available these days, we've come a long way with gear.


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## davidwise77 (6 mo ago)

Today, I receive a new branded Wilbur soot shirts....it's osm


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## Hunterj5 (Jul 26, 2015)

Surffshr said:


> Fuck kuiu. Overpriced shit for old fat white men sitting in blinds “hunting”.


Most of their stuff won't even fit fat guys.


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## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

Ah you gotta love Microskiff, this thread has devolved into old fat white guys fighting about fashion.....


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

redchaser said:


> Ah you gotta love Microskiff, this thread has devolved into old fat white guys fighting about fashion.....


Y’all can use this just remember who made it for you...


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## Mark H (Nov 22, 2016)

Since I don't have dog in this particular fight, seems to me the conversation is about relative performance of various gear and therefore helpful if I'm crazy enough at my age to be six miles from shelter in nasty cold weather.


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## Mark H (Nov 22, 2016)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Y’all can use this just remember who made it for you...
> View attachment 212556


The meme that keeps on giving.


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## SS06 (Apr 6, 2021)

Hunterj5 said:


> Most of their stuff won't even fit fat guys.


Yes it will..I wear an XL in most clothing lines.. some of the newer stuff cut like "skinny jeans" I have to wear a 2XL...these newer, thinner, warmer fibers are awesome


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## SS06 (Apr 6, 2021)

I don't understand the apparent distasteful attitudes towards "fatguys" and clothing....fat or skinny aren't we all just looking to spend our money on the BEST gear we can???
I guess if a fat guy can't fit in Kuiu or Sitka according to some we shouldnt be able to cast a Sage or other high end rod....because fat hands wont fit the skinny grip. 
Shut up with size and fit....I/we will be the judge of what I/we wear on the flats, in the mountains, tree stand, or blind...jeez enough


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## Surffshr (Dec 28, 2017)

I’m glad they make good stuff. Really. I’m old, fat, and shoot shit however it is customary to do depending on location. 9 years ago I went elk hunting in Montana and looked at (k-word) along with many other products. (K-word) has been relentless with marketing since then. Now that the bots found this post the amount of spam from (k word) coming in my email, slick ass mailers and on every social media platform has increased 10x.
I like gear and have signed up for probably every brand mentioned in this post (and many more). k-word has been over the top considering I never purchased a single item from them. All good. I’m going to consider something simply because apparently live people use and enjoy the product.


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## TheHawk (Aug 9, 2017)

ebr said:


> @Half Shell thank you for your service.


Ditto HalfShell, and I echo your recommendation on Kryptek's hunting and fishing apparel.


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