# Butt section to fly line



## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

My tarpon line is cracked right below the welded loop on the leader end. I don't trust it. 'The book' says use an Albright knot. What do you say?


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## Sabalon (Aug 16, 2016)

No pro here, but I use Albright or nail, and a guide buddy uses a double nail knot--one just tied a few inches above the other.

I've had two welded loops quit on me this year with Rio lines. I shouldn't say they quit, but they started coming apart and looked like risks I was going to take on big fish.

Edit: on my first fly reel about 25 years ago, the guy who set it up put in a needle knot where the butt section actually goes through about 1/2" of fly line then gets a nail knot. That was the best, cleanest knot I've had. I don't think the new fly lines with cores allow for it, but it was great.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

tailwalk said:


> My tarpon line is cracked right below the welded loop on the leader end. I don't trust it. 'The book' says use an Albright knot. What do you say?


I clip the end fold it back in a small loop, and put 3 nail knots very close to each other. 

Just out of curiosity what line is that? I have a feeling I know, because I just had a similar experience very recently with a very expensive line brand new right out of the box. PM me if you prefer.


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## duppyzafari (Jul 9, 2015)

I've talked to guides that cut the welded loop off as soon as they take the line out of the box.

I've got a welded loop that looks like it's ready to break my heart when the right fish grabs the fly - I'm interested to see the responses on this thread.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Example of what I posted earlier.
Edit: re-Posting a full sized image. Sorry for the large image but it's really the only way to show the needed detail.
If you tie them from loop working to the tag end, then trim the tag before finally cinching down the third nail knot, the tag in will slip part way under the third nail when you pull it tight and make a somewhat smoother transition to your fly line.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Could you use a Dyneema braid to secure the loop?


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## Sabalon (Aug 16, 2016)

LowHydrogen said:


> Example of what I posted earlier.
> Edit: re-Posting a full sized image. Sorry for the large image but it's really the only way to show the needed detail.
> If you tie them from loop working to the tag end, then trim the tag before finally cinching down the third nail knot, the tag in will slip part way under the third nail when you pull it tight and make a somewhat smoother transition to your fly line.
> View attachment 10358




That's a badass knot.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

On my 10wt rigs and up I nail knot a length of 40-60# flouro straight to the line and cover it with a bit of Loon UV Knot Sense. This was my instructional video:


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

+1 on what @LowHydrogen posted, except I just use a double nail knot. Most line is tapered at the tip, so folding over and creating your own doesn't any any more bulk than a standard tapered loop when done right. I've never had one fail and have caught some beasts on them.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Braided loop connection! They are usually 6" long and come in 30 or 50lbs. I'll use the 30lbs from 9wt and down and the 50lb test version from 10wt up. Easy! done! Small profile!

Rio carries them, as well as many others.

I will use 10-15lb braided fishing line (could even use 20lb fly line backing) and service in at least 2 nail knots at the very end of the braided loop material (opposite side from the loop). The 1st nail knot will be a 1/2 inch from the end and the last one will be right at the end of the braided tubing. Those nail knots will typically be 10 turn nail knots. Before cinching them down, place a drop or 2 of super glue on the threads, then quickly cinch it completely down. Trip off the nail knot ends, then place another drop or 2 of superglue on top of the threads. Make sure you have trimmed back any of the braided tube fibers back to the nail knot.

You'll notice that the knots will almost be level with the braided tubing and will not hang up in your rod guides.

Here's an instructional video simular to what I'm referring to, only I use braided line to make double (or even triple) nail knots to secure the tubing end to the flyline. The braided tubing does the rest of the work by compressing on your flyline as it pulls, simular to a chinese finger lock.





Ted Haas


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> On my 10wt rigs and up I nail knot a length of 40-60# flouro straight to the line and cover it with a bit of Loon UV Knot Sense. This was my instructional video:


Try having that knot clunk thru your rod guides....


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

Backwater said:


> Try having that knot clunk thru your rod guides....


I have and there's no issue whatsoever. And it's funny, the first guide who recommended that did so because he was bitching about the loop-to-loop connection getting stuck in the guides.

Kind of makes me think the arguments between the different styles are a bit overblown and there's not much difference between them.


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

I cut off the welded loop, fold the line over to create a new loop and stack three nail knots. It's never failed me. 

I got tired of my Rio lines breaking at the loop so I had to go to this. I've only had one Royal Wulff welded loop start to look funky, so I have gone to this method. It's what I do to go from fly line to backing, too.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

Looks like a lot of you guys do the nail knot thing to make your own loop. I'm torn between that and buying the Rio braided loop kit. The loop on my SA Mastery 7wt line is starting to separate, so I gotta do something before I get back out.

For those of you that do the nail knots: What line are you using to make the knots? Plain old 20# mono? @nativejax mentioned kevlar thread?

For the braided loops: @Backwater you mentioned using braided line nail knots as well -- what's the reason for that rather than the little collar that comes with the loop kit?


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> Braided loop connection! They are usually 6" long and come in 30 or 50lbs. I'll use the 30lbs from 9wt and down and the 50lb test version from 10wt up. Easy! done! Small profile!
> 
> Rio carries them, as well as many others.
> 
> ...



Stop copying me Ted. I knew you would finally come around. You can also do the same connection with hollow braid. I use the mono, hasn't failed me yet. I bought a 50 lb spool a year ago, think I have a lifetime supply.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Backwater said:


> Braided loop connection! They are usually 6" long and come in 30 or 50lbs. I'll use the 30lbs from 9wt and down and the 50lb test version from 10wt up. Easy! done! Small profile!
> 
> Rio carries them, as well as many others.
> 
> ...


If your going to tie on 2 nails why use the braided loop


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

bryson said:


> Looks like a lot of you guys do the nail knot thing to make your own loop. I'm torn between that and buying the Rio braided loop kit. The loop on my SA Mastery 7wt line is starting to separate, so I gotta do something before I get back out.
> 
> For those of you that do the nail knots: What line are you using to make the knots? Plain old 20# mono? @nativejax mentioned kevlar thread?
> 
> For the braided loops: @Backwater you mentioned using braided line nail knots as well -- what's the reason for that rather than the little collar that comes with the loop kit?


On a 7 wt. You could use 30-40 to turn the fly over.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

permitchaser said:


> If your going to tie on 2 nails why use the braided loop


It doesn't need two nails, just one which only serves to keep the finger trap locked down. My nails are done with spiderwire clear 40, it bites into the core and it has glue over it so it's not going anywhere. I suspect two nails could be used for redundancy but they need to be butted up next to each other. Otherwise if they are spaced out they are reducing the finger trap surface area. I have tested this multiple times and the fly line core snaps well above the nail around 30 lbs of dead lift or whatever lb the fly line core is. This is with a 50 lb braided loop.

You can do the same concept with hollow spectra (hollow ace, toro tamer, Jerry brown) and put a spliced loop on the end. You can also splice your fly line straight into the backing. It eliminates all knots but also elimiates interchanability.

I use this connection at the back of my fly line to connect to a spliced loop in my hollow core backing. The mono loop collapses making it much smaller than a welded loop. If you do the same concept with hollow braided spectra the transition is almost seamless.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

If you look the tiny pinched section of orange right where it transitions to the fly line, that's the nail knot sunken down. The glue is built up a little more than needed. If your careful with the loon uv and you can make it almost completely smooth.

@bryson those little collars they sell are crap and the braided loops in the kits are too short in my opinion. Those collars are only shrunk on by heat. Wouldn't trust that setup on anything more than bream.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

el9surf said:


> It doesn't need two nails, just one which only serves to keep the finger trap locked down. My nails are done with spiderwire clear 40, it bites into the core and it has glue over it so it's not going anywhere. I suspect two nails could be used for redundancy but they need to be butted up next to each other. Otherwise if they are spaced out they are reducing the finger trap surface area. I have tested this multiple times and the fly line core snaps well above the nail around 30 lbs of dead lift or whatever lb the fly line core is. This is with a 50 lb braided loop.
> 
> You can do the same concept with hollow spectra (hollow ace, toro tamer, Jerry brown) and put a spliced loop on the end. You can also splice your fly line straight into the backing. It eliminates all knots but also elimiates interchanability.
> 
> ...


YouTube tutorial of that set up?


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## sidelock (Jan 31, 2011)

Braided mono loops don't require any knots or glue for additional security since they work like a Chinese finger claw/trap ?, all they require is to have end treated to prevent from fraying. The trick to a fail proof mono loop is to do a reverse double catch non slip loop by turning the braided mono inside out over itself as the very first step in the process.
I don't apply nail knots, instead I serve the ends of my mono loops by spinning a bobbin under tension loaded with strong fly tying thread around the fly line/mono loop junction then apply a little pliobond, let it sit a little and then roll it between moistened thumb and index finger just before it sets. Pliobond provides a waterproof, flexible and permanent coating that lasts indefinitely. I use that chit on everything !


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

bryson said:


> Looks like a lot of you guys do the nail knot thing to make your own loop. I'm torn between that and buying the Rio braided loop kit. The loop on my SA Mastery 7wt line is starting to separate, so I gotta do something before I get back out.
> 
> For those of you that do the nail knots: What line are you using to make the knots? Plain old 20# mono? @nativejax mentioned kevlar thread?
> 
> For the braided loops: @Backwater you mentioned using braided line nail knots as well -- what's the reason for that rather than the little collar that comes with the loop kit?


That is 14lb fluoro in the triple knot pic I posted, normally use 12 but the 14 was handy. I sometimes use 20 on larger lines, that line in the pic is 5wt trout line.


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

I cut my loops off and nail knot everything. It's simple and effective.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> YouTube tutorial of that set up?


I can do a picture tutorial


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

sidelock said:


> Braided mono loops don't require any knots or glue for additional security since they work like a Chinese finger claw/trap ?, all they require is to have end treated to prevent from fraying. The trick to a fail proof mono loop is to do a reverse double catch non slip loop by turning the braided mono inside out over itself as the very first step in the process.
> I don't apply nail knots, instead I serve the ends of my mono loops by spinning a bobbin under tension loaded with strong fly tying thread around the fly line/mono loop junction then apply a little pliobond, let it sit a little and then roll it between moistened thumb and index finger just before it sets. Pliobond provides a waterproof, flexible and permanent coating that lasts indefinitely. I use that chit on everything !


A nail knot takes me about 20 seconds, is easier than messing with a bobbin under tension and serves the same purpose. It also allows you to bite the knot into the fly line coating so it's basically flush. The braid I use doesn't leave any raised edges once the knot is cinched down.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

On occasion I'll do a permanent butt section, with a doubled nail (no loop). Here is the configuration on my 8wt. Butt section here is 40# fluoro.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> Stop copying me Ted. I knew you would finally come around. You can also do the same connection with hollow braid. I use the mono, hasn't failed me yet. I bought a 50 lb spool a year ago, think I have a lifetime supply.


I've never used that bulk braided stuff and then service in loop splice like you do. However, I've used the store bought loops since '99. They are simple to do for most people. But some of the loops I do w/o them are too complicated for most. I tried sharing it here about 2 yrs ago, but no one got it. But then again, that's the tinkering side of my m.o..

Yes, between you and sjm1620.. (I think I got his handle right ), the braided core backing is the smoothest connection from flyline to backing there is, no doubt. I've been working on another strong connection using regular backing, but in no way does it come close to the hollow core braid connection that you guys use. So my hat's off to the both of you. What I also found is you can just buy a small amount of either, do the connection, then splice in a loop past the fly line end, then do a loop connection with regular backing. Then that is still a better setup then anything else out there. But on the flip side, you still need the needles, which can be expensive. So the pre-made braided mono loop connections are painless in compares to effort vs the HC braid or bulk mono HC tube connections.

On the business end of the flylinw, those pre-made braided mono loop connections, the way I described how to install them, are the way to go since they are easy to do and are a small package going thru the guides.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

LowHydrogen said:


> On occasion I'll do a permanent butt section, with a doubled nail (no loop). Here is the configuration on my 8wt. Butt section here is 40# fluoro.
> View attachment 10675


So are you laying your butt section alongside the fly line and then using a separate piece of line to tie the nail knots and then coating with clear cure?


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> So are you laying your butt section alongside the fly line and then using a separate piece of line to tie the nail knots and then coating with clear cure?


No. The butt section and the nail knots are all the same piece (one piece).


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## sidelock (Jan 31, 2011)

Not suggesting or arguing that nail knots are inferior or take longer, just stating what works for me and my preference having tried and applied every imaginable method over the years.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> I've never used that bulk braided stuff and then service in loop slice like you do. However, I've used the store bought loops since '99. They are simple to do for most people. But some of the loops I do w/o them are too complicated for most. I tried sharing it here about 2 yrs ago, but no one got it. But then again, that's the tinkering side of my m.o..
> 
> Yes, between you and sjm1620.. (I think I got his handle right ), the braided core backing is the smoorhest connection from flyline to backing, there is, no doubt. I've been working on another strong connection using regular backing, but in no way does it come close to the hollow core braid connection that you guys use. So my hat's off to the both of you. What I also found is you can just buy a small amoynt of either, do the connection, then slice in a loop past the fly line end, then do a loop connection with regular backing. Then that is still a better setup then anything else out there. But on the flip side, you still need the needles, which can be expensive. So the pre-made braided mono loop connections are painless in compares to effort vs the HC braid oe bulk mono HC tube connections.
> 
> On the business end of the flylunw, those pre-made braided mono loop connections, the way I described how to install rhem, are the way to go since they are easy to do and are a small package going thru the guides.


I'll post up some connections and how to pictures in the next day or two. I need to rig one of my lines anyway.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

I decided to fix the loop on my 7wt yesterday -- I had some 20# mono, so I figured I'd try the nail knot idea. I figured that if I don't like it, I can always cut it off and do the braided loop idea.

It went pretty well -- I made the loop a little larger than I needed, but it closed up nicely when I put the leader on. I still need to add superglue or Loon knot sense or something, but I think it will hold fine. The 20# bit into the coating of the fly line really well, much better than I expected.

Before:








After:


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

What lb test did you use? At the very least I would whip finish creating a ramp up to that first knot and a smooth finish over the other nails. They may take a snake guide depending on which end of the line that is.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Just saw that it was 20lb. You might try redoing with 10 lb, it will get those knots a lot smaller.


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## TheFrequentFlier (Feb 17, 2016)

The "Thorpedo Splice"






I do something similar for my heavier weight rods...basically improvised the technique of splicing 100 lb+ mono into hollow-core dacron (about 15-20') for my tuna sticks and then whipping thread/nail knots so I can sleep the night before hitting the water...

Not sure if this is what @Backwater was getting at, but sounds pretty similar.

Just hope your other fly line on an extra spool, cause you sure as hell aren't doing this on the water...


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

el9surf said:


> Just saw that it was 20lb. You might try redoing with 10 lb, it will get those knots a lot smaller.


I cut the fly line at an angle at the last (first?) nail knot. My first attempt had the end of the doubled back fly line underneath the knot, like @LowHydrogen mentioned on the first page, but it didn't look very good for some reason when I did it. I was thinking about using some UV resin from my fly tying stuff, but wasn't sure how it would hold up.

Maybe I'll just add another nail knot over the running line -- not to hold anything down, but to help the transition?

I like the idea of using hollow-core and building it like a wind-on leader. I might reach out to some offshore buddies and see if they would add loops to my fly lines in exchange for a nice 6-pack...


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## TheFrequentFlier (Feb 17, 2016)

bryson said:


> Maybe I'll just add another nail knot over the running line -- not to hold anything down, but to help the transition?


I'd use thread and whip it on...

I see a lot of guys trying to hold both ends and the bobbin...once you make the first couple turns and the bobbin won't fall off, grab the fly line side in one hand and the backing side in the other, and then "roll" your hands around to get the bobbin going around the line by itself and it'll actually put nice tension on it too if you keep the speed going...hope that makes sense. You'll be surprised at how neat that'll come out, and you can make a nice little ramp that won't snag.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

tgjohnso said:


> I'd use thread and whip it on...
> 
> I see a lot of guys trying to hold both ends and the bobbin...once you make the first couple turns and the bobbin won't fall off, grab the fly line side in one hand and the backing side in the other, and then "roll" your hands around to get the bobbin going around the line by itself and it'll actually put nice tension on it too if you keep the speed going...hope that makes sense. You'll be surprised at how neat that'll come out, and you can make a nice little ramp that won't snag.


I'll give that a shot tonight. If I understand, just hold each side and get the bobbin spinning around the line? I'm guessing it will take some trial and error to adjust the tension on my bobbin correctly.


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## TheFrequentFlier (Feb 17, 2016)

bryson said:


> If I understand, just hold each side and get the bobbin spinning around the line?


Yep, exactly! Maybe just practice once or twice until you figure out how to control the thread enough to build a tight ramp. 



nativejax said:


> you can actually get a very clean and tight wrap by swinging the bobbin around the doubled fly line and guiding it between the tips of your index fingers.


^ Like he said...works great for this purpose, and Kevlar thread would definitely work well!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

This was how I was shown how to to tie in my flyline loops in the very beginning days when I 1st started out fly fishing. Back then, most flylines didn't come with a welded loop. So we serviced in my own loops with a bobbin and then I used super glue, soft epoxy or softtex to cover the threads.






Later, someone showed me a dbl nail knot then (say 40lb on an 8wt line) tie in a loop, 6" away from the fly line to make a permanent loop that the butt leader could be loop to loop connected to it.

Back then with my freshwater rods, a simple nail knot to the leader was enough.

Later, some of my tarpon gear had triple nail knots for the connections. But I hated that they would hang up in the rods guides if you accidently reeled the leader into the rod guides. 

I even went back to welded loops that came on the flyline, just reinforced them with the same thread servicing in the video. But I do think the braided loop connection is a smaller knot package and is strong enough.


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