# Going after our flounder next



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Screen shot of email I received. Soon the only seafood you eat will be from essential stores only.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

I got that one too. What a crock! I appreciate size and bag limits as much as the next person to ensure the future of our fisheries but C’mon ya’ll! It’s the commercial guys and meat haul guides killing it along with last but not least the meat haul idiots you see all over on every bridge and canal with 2-3 120qt coolers! 

And to clarify, when I say meat haul guides I am not talking about all guides or even all guides that allow clients to keep fish. But go to Instagram and take a look! There are several hundred “if not more” guides between NC and texas that are just meat haulers! They post almost every day with pics of their clients and their limits of trout, reds, snook, etc... for the whole boat! I am starting to think that guided trips should have different limits than recreational/ self service trips & I never thought I’d say that! This particular group of guides is no better than longliners or gill netters imo because they show no restraint and I am willing to wager some even cull their fish!


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## Scott (Aug 24, 2015)

Years back some friends and I were fishing the Jax Kayak Tournament. We stopped at a gas station,
Pre-dawn, to ice up and saw a couple guys with a Carolina Skiff. None of us had ever fished the area, so I decided to ask them about the fishing. They had been out all night commercial gigging. They had a couple of 120 coolers in the boat that were slap full, top to bottom very little ice, with Flounder. I don’t know how many people do this, recreational or commercial, but if it’s popular, it doesn’t seem sustainable.


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## Wilmywood (Oct 7, 2019)

The Gulf coast area seems to be the worst about it. It makes my blood boil every time I see a huge stringer of trout, reds and flounder knowing that the vast majority are going to end up freezer or as crab food. It blows my mind how little some individuals can respect a resource like that.


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## MRichardson (May 27, 2010)

Florida's population growth has been ridiculous for decades. Of course our fisheries are suffering. Just look at the boat/scruiser/wave-runner traffic out there, even in the once-remote areas. 

We are overrun. As far as commercial industry goes, that should have long been put on the back burner. Only due to the remnants of the good-ol boy ******* are they still able to be first in line profiting from a public resource rather than at the back as it should be.


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## Dadvocate (Jun 26, 2011)

Have to ban the gigging I don't think the hook and line crowd are hurting the population too bad. Is Commercial catch *Unlimited*?


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## Scott (Aug 24, 2015)

Dadvocate said:


> Have to ban the gigging I don't think the hook and line crowd are hurting the population too bad. Is Commercial catch *Unlimited*?


Perhaps they should be elevated to gamefish status.


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

Rec and commercial season on flounder was closed in NC on Sept. 4, 2019. Commercial was re-opened from Oct. 1 until Nov. 15 in the Southern Management Area of NC. Rec season will be open from Aug. 16 until Sep. 30, 2020.


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

I’m not for banning gigging. It is an old way of harvesting and don’t mind it being preserved. Not a fan of coolers packed with any species. Same goes for netting or cast netting shrimp. Exposed my daughter to it and hope she keeps it going.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

I have not caught a flounder in over 2 years here in SWFL. This area has never been a hotspot by any means but you always picked a couple here and there in certain areas. Not sure what’s going on but it’s concerning.


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## ryan_riggle09 (Jun 14, 2018)

I agree with y’all about how the problem is mainly commercial and meat haulers. But I just wish my state of Ga would look into any kind of management of our fishery at all. The Ga regs haven’t changed in forever, can keep 15 trout a person only has to be 14 inches No max size, 5 reds a person 14 to 23 just some examples. We have people go to jetties and fish and take 3 guys bring home 15 reds, 45 trout, I know that has to be hurting the fishery


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Dadvocate said:


> Have to ban the gigging I don't think the hook and line crowd are hurting the population too bad. Is Commercial catch *Unlimited*?


No need to ban gigging. It’s the commercial industry and meat haul guides.


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

Nc has had stupid small trout & flounder size limits for years.14” & 15” last I looked. Gill netters will tell you regarding bycatch, “crabs gotta eat too “. Fisheries come and go. Grey trout were around in numbers when I was a kid. Stripers not so much. Now, damn few grey trout. ( caught 2 , same day, in last 8 years.)& Stripers are plentiful. Who knows..... I understand that the Pamlico sound has warmed up over the years and now is considered a nursery for bull sharks, not just a food source. 30 years ago you’d catch one once in a blue moon ,now you can pretty much go to target them. 30 years ago Tarpon were fairly common , not so much anymore We do have plenty of pretty stingrays tho. bull drum & dolphin only constant I see . I think biology is overriding reason for this. we’ve had massive floods( 4 In last 20 years 9’+ ) this has to have had an effect. I know the river has changed after each. 

River rat for life


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

State fish rob said:


> Now, damn few grey trout.


Haven't seen many in years until last fall. Found structure that was covered in them. Good sign. Limit is one per fisherman.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Ben said:


> I have not caught a flounder in over 2 years here in SWFL. This area has never been a hotspot by any means but you always picked a couple here and there in certain areas. Not sure what’s going on but it’s concerning.


I actually caught one a over by 2 pines a few months ago first one in over 5 years. I had a place in the early 90s over by pineland that was a sure thing everytime when the tides was rolling but as you know our waters are way overpopulated.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Me and the wife caught four between 16 and 19" on Sunday. Not sharing that spot for anything!


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## jglidden (Feb 13, 2014)

I am sure most of this is operator error but I have witnessed the decline of the flounder fishing in the northern mosquito lagoon area, as I grew up fishing there. It also seems to be a very popular gigging destination as well. 

I also agree with James about the meat haulers but don't think it should be limited to guides/charter services. I live in the forgotten coast area now and have been inducted into a good ole boys fishing report email thread for a certain river up here. There are about a dozen guys that fish at least twice a week (with 3 people on board) who go out, check their pinfish traps, and fish until they get their trout limit. That's roughly 350 trout a week from flats around one little river, just from people I know. Side note: These guys are super nice anglers who are still trying to figure out what I do with that long pointy stick and why I don't have an aluminum boat. 

Don't get me wrong, I keep plenty of fish and love having fresh fish for dinner at least once a week. No one in their right minds thinks they are going to buy a boat, tackle, gear, and gas then catch enough fish to "break even". We are out there for the sport and memories. I don't think we should ban gigging or make all fish catch-and-release but RESEARCH SCIENCE BASED regulations usually don't seem like a bad idea. 

Now lets open up the Goliath grouper lottery system!


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

Texas has made some pretty solid changes to the flounder regs over the last 10 years. Used to be 10 fish over 14". Then cut to 5 over 14" with a temporary restriction of 2 over 14" and no gigging from November 1 to December 1. Gigging allowed again but 2 fish limit remains in effect until December 15. This is to help protect the migration of spawning flounder to offshore. This coming September the min size is being bumped up to 15" and the following year there will be a temporary catch and release only period for the same 6 week period Nov1-Dec 15. Texas Parks and Wildlife has 40 years of biomass survey data to evaluate fish stock trends. Despite a few upticks in the flounder population the overall trend shows a decrease in the flounder. From what I've read, it is across all the states with flounder.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

It’s about time!


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## jpipes (May 6, 2012)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> It’s about time!


And there is a very vocal guide/fisherman population that remains convinced that TPWD Scientists are skewing the data in an effort to screw over everyone....all because the flounder fishing has been exceptional this year.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

jpipes said:


> And there is a very vocal guide/fisherman population that remains convinced that TPWD Scientists are skewing the data in an effort to screw over everyone....all because the flounder fishing has been exceptional this year.


The flounder spawn is significantly affected by cold weather. We need some good cold snaps to help induce the flounder migration offshore and of course spawning. Well a couple years ago, we happen to have a few days of really cold weather. So guess what we have now? Yup, more flounder in the bays. Hence the better flounder fishing. Now is the time to protect what we have not run off at the mouth ignoring the scientific data on flounder stocks in Texas and go meat haul everyone you can catch. Luddites...


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Biologists are at the boat ramps in the middle of the day surveying people that are not even targeting flounder. They should be surveying gigging guides by waiting at the ramps at night and early morning.
See how data collection can cause skewed statistics?


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Bioligists are at the boat ramps in the middle of the day surveying people that are not even targeting flounder. They should be surveying gigging guides by waiting at the ramps at night and early morning.
> See how data collection can cause skewed statistics?


You are completely right. We get them here at ramps that are not even close to high populations of redfish as an example. They ask did you catch what you were in search of. Say the redfish. If everyone at this ramp says no then they assume redfish must be in bad shape.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Capnredfish said:


> You are completely right. We get them here at ramps that are not even close to high populations of redfish as an example. They ask did you catch what you were in search of. Say the redfish. If everyone at this ramp says no then they assume redfish must be in bad shape.


Exactly, and they call it science! Same crap with red snapper and Goliath grouper!


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Gill net surveys


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

FWC approves draft changes to flounder regulations
At its July Commission meeting, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) approved draft changes to the management of Florida’s flounder fishery. These changes will be brought back to the Commission in October for final consideration. 
A stock status update suggests that the flounder fishery statewide has been in a general declining trend in recent years and is likely overfished and undergoing overfishing on the Atlantic coast of Florida. Other states have also reported declines in flounder populations and have been making their own regulation changes. 
FWC has been working with stakeholders to gather input on this fishery through workshops, online commenting and more.
*Draft rule changes include:*

 Increase minimum size limit from 12 inches to 14 inches total length (recreational and commercial).
 Reduce recreational bag limit from 10 to five fish per person.
 Establish a November closure (recreational).
 Establish a commercial trip and vessel limit of 150 flounder when using allowable gear for all months outside of November.
 Establish a November commercial trip and vessel limit of 50 pounds when using allowable gear.
 Extend* ALL *FWC flounder regulations into federal waters.


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## tcov (Apr 7, 2018)

Bumping this up....new regs take affect starting March 1st.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

tcov said:


> Bumping this up....new regs take affect starting March 1st.


Based on crappy data collection...
It’s amazing how they go after flounder and they are plentiful but allow the trophy trout kill tournaments all summer long. Hell I don’t think the people at the Coastal Conservation Association know what CCA stands for. Four months of STAR killing 8 pound plus breeder trout?!? Why not tag some 18” trout and release like they do redfish? I will never understand it. Hopefully this is the year they end that nonsense!


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## mgcolli (Jun 25, 2017)

I think it is necessary to point out that this is not a Florida only issue. The state agencies have recently recognized that Southern Flounder in the South Atlantic are a single unit stock. So they travel between the states and are a connected population. So, what happens in NC affects FL and what happens in FL affects NC and you get the idea. In 2019, NC completed a South Atlantic coastwide stock assessment using data from the respective states (Including Florida) (linked here: Stock Assessment of Southern Flounder (Paralichthys lethostigma) in the South Atlantic, 1989–2017). The data and recommendations in this report are likely what led to the rethinking of the flounder regulations in Florida. I'm sure if you listened to the workshop they referred to this report several times as they did in the SC flounder workshop. While a project of this size obviously has possibilities for sampling bias, the biologists aren't idiots, they know that. They can account for the uncertainty of the data in their models by acquiring estimates of the bias. If you want to know how that works exactly, PM me. Whether you blame commercial fisherman or giggers or whoever, the outcome is the same, there are not enough of them. And I know you may still be catching flounder because you have a good spot. The explanation for that phenomenon is outlined well in this paper based on the decline of Atlantic Cod in the 90's: Spatial and temporal variation in the density of northern cod. If you are still not convinced, look at the data yourself. Commercial landings for 2019 Florida Southern Flounder: 160,611 lbs (FL Commercial Fisheries Landings). Recreational Landings in 2019 for Southern Flounder: 1,320,885 lbs. (MRIP Recreations Fisheries Query. Go to catch data in the top right and select "time series" then "go to query"). While these are both estimates, even if they are off by 50%, it is not even close in comparison.
I think it is important to do a little digging into the data yourself, instead of basing your opinions on that one time you saw a guy filling a cooler. Hopefully this brings forward informed conversation, and not "I still catch plenty of flounder, why are they taking it away?" conversation. Now let's move on and save a struggling fishery so our kids can enjoy it too. Because to me, that is more important than me keeping a 12 inch flounder.


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## BrainlessBoater (Feb 18, 2018)

Flounder is my preferred target any time I get to go fishing. It’s alarming what’s going on.


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