# Help with a 12 WT



## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

I found a one owner never used TFO 12 wt TICR for $100 and could not pass up the deal even though I have no big game fly fishing experience. 

I have an inexpensive reel picked out. Its a Pflueger President 2012. I all ready have a 1078 (8 wt) and like it. Just waiting to find a good deal on the 1012 (12 wt). I would like to get it for under $100 and maybe a 2nd spool for about 1/2 of that. Here is a link to the manufacture:

http://www.pfluegerfishing.com/products/products.php?p=28

What do think about that reel? I am mostly concerned about the weight. Is 7.5 oz. light enough? Is it worth picking up a 2nd spool?

Lastly, (and this is mostly for deerfly because he told me once but I forgot what he said :-[ ) what is a good fly line for going after the silver king. If you were to buy two would they be the same or different?


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

TFO TICR Rods are very powerful with fast actions compared to their competitors rods rated at the same rod wt. I would definitely take it to a flyshop or borrow some lines to see what cast the best for your setup.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2008)

> TFO TICR Rods are very powerful with fast actions compared to their competitors rods rated at the same rod wt. I would definitely take it to a flyshop or borrow some lines to see what cast the best for your setup.



Eric did not think the same of my TICRx. I could see the difference between his stick and mine. Almost like I had 14wt line 

Hopefully Eric will chime in.


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

I have no opinion on the reel other than with a fish like a Tarpon you want something with a good drag. As far as lines and buying two, I would buy the SA Tarpon floating line and also a sinking tip line.


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

Bob, ron must have a dud then. I wasn't even remotely impressed with it compared to a 12yr old Penn Gold Cup IM7 12wt I was throwing side by side. I could easily punch a third more line out with the same effort with the IM7. Believe me I was very surprised with this TFO to say the least. Up until that rod I had never tried a TFO that I didn't like either. I'm especially impressed with all the TiCr's I've ever messed with and my TiCrX 8wt is power house for its size too. I would expect most any TFO 10wt to handle a 12wt line without much fuss. But ron's 12 was disappointing to say the least, so I think there must be something up with it.


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

Here's some data from independent testers for TFO TICR 8, 9, & 10 wts:

Model MfgWt Len. Pcs ERN AA

TiCr 908-4 8 9 4 10.6 66 
TiCr 908-4 8 9 4 10.63 74 
TiCr 908-4 8 9 4 10.8 70 
TiCr 909-4 9 9 4 12.1 73 
TiCr 909-4 9 9  4 12.75 77 
TiCr 9010-4 10 9 4 14 73
TiCr 9010-4 10 9 4 14.62 77

Basically the ERN is the effective rod number, aka power, and should cast a line wt +/- .5 ern's above or below the whole number (based on 30'of line). If you plan to have 50'+ of line in the air while casting, then perhaps 1 wt (or more) lower line would be best.

AA is the action angle, basically anything above around a 67 is considered fast action (most bend occurs in the upper 1/3rd or higher of the rod). 75 would be very fast.

This doesn't measure "feel" or any qualitative characteristic.

Ron has a dud. I'd have to measure it to see how it ranks, or reeks.


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

> Here's some data from independent testers for TFO TICR 8, 9, & 10 wts:
> 
> Model MfgWt Len. Pcs ERN AA
> 
> ...


What site did you get that from?


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

Tom, I don't have any first hand experience with that reel, but if its anything remotely similar to the Trion its probably sufficient as long as you don't crank the drag down too tight. Set it to about 2.5-3lbs tops and apply any additional pressure by palming the spool with your hand and it'll be fine. Scientific Anglers Tarpon Taper is my favorite line. I use it on my 10 and 12wt outfits and have been for many, many years. Theres other good lines out there too, but SA is a sure thing IMO. 

I don't know what to say on the rod other than ron's 12wt really surprised me. I have to think its something specific to his outfit, not TFO 12wts in general.


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

Apparently Rons rod is a dud that reeks. LOL. This is kind of funny actually because for months Ron has been telling me the more he casts that TFO the more he appreciates his Sage. I understand now his comparison.


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

I appreciate the advice on the line. Do you think at this point I should just put on one of my heavier 8 wt reels on it to test with? Other than less backing what other problems might I be creating?


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

> What site did you get that from?


http://www.superbob.org/CC.htm - Select Rod Data. Use the tabs at the bottom of the spreadsheet to look at rods vs blanks.

Just don't try to talk to the guy that hosts the site - he's a frickin tool .


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

Tom those are the "common cents" numbers. Probably the best method to classify or measure fly rods out there. You can easily see the TFO's generally test out well above the rated line weight inscribed on the blank. Which is why I made the comment that I would expect a TFO 10wt to handle a 12wt line pretty easily, because in most cases they really are closer to 11 or 12wt blanks. 

So there really isn't any magic formula to TFO, the secret is what size you sell them as, not the size they really are.  If outboard engine manufacturers used similar engineering principles we'd be pretty outraged to find out our 25hp was in fact really just a 25 and not a 40. ;D Of course OB mfr's tried messing around a bit with HP rated at the power head vs the prop etc., so they're not exactly saints either.


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

> > What site did you get that from?
> 
> 
> Just don't try to talk to the guy that hosts the site - he's a frickin tool .


thanks for the warning, I'll try to remember that the next time I see him


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> I appreciate the advice on the line. Do you think at this point I should just put on one of my heavier 8 wt reels on it to test with? Other than less backing what other problems might I be creating?


Honestly Tom. Go to the Flyfisherman if you get to Titusville. They have test reels in every weight with line on them. Take your rod and borrow a reel from them and go cast on the front lawn. John and Rich are both very knowledgeable good guys and will be more than happy to help you out. I am sure Orlando Outfitters is the same way. Dont take an 8wt reel and put a 12 weight line on it to do some testing. IMHO you wont get the same feel as the lighter reel might throw off the balance of the rod a little. I have read that happens.


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

Now I know why most people stick to spinning tackle. Fly fishing is one of f-ing dark arts. I will get back to you guys later on this one. (if I learn to cast it)


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

> I appreciate the advice on the line. Do you think at this point I should just put on one of my heavier 8 wt reels on it to test with? Other than less backing what other problems might I be creating?


if all you want to do is see how it handles a 12wt line then any 9-10 sized reel that you can hang on there will be fine as a counter balance. You don't even need to spool the line on the reel, just pile it up at your feet on the lawn and cast away.

Now if you mean trying to fish for tarpon then I wouldn't try it with any reel that won't hold at least 150-175yds of 30lb backing plus about 70-80ft of the 12wt line. If you're trying to use something closer to an 8wt reel then you may have to cut the fly line from the back to shorten it and make room for more backing. 70-80' total fly line length is plenty. More backing than that is better insurance of not getting spooled if the boat operator can't get after the fish fast enough, but otherwise 150yds or so should be enough for most circumstances.


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> Now I know why most people stick to spinning tackle. Fly fishing is one of f-ing dark arts. I will get back to you guys later on this one. (if I learn to cast it)


Yeah. But once you get the bug..........well. I havent looked back.


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

> Now I know why most people stick to spinning tackle. Fly fishing is one of f-ing dark arts. I will get back to you guys later on this one. (if I learn to cast it)


Tom, this is exactly one of my rants on fly fishing the last 25yrs or so. The rod manufacturers have created a mess for less experienced people to get into the sport. 30 years ago when you picked a 10wt off the shelf it was really well matched to a 10wt line. If you wanted to slow it down you bought an 11wt line, speed it up a 9wt etc. Really pretty easy. Now you have to assume most rods are really a line class or two above what they're rated at, but not always. So now we're forced to "try" stuff to see what works best, but thats only good for people that already cast well enough to understand the forces at work and frankly I don't want to have to try a rod before I can know how well it handles the line I want to use. Its the line that dictates the size and weight of the flies we want/need to cast. The rod is somewhat secondary except that in saltwater its also a fighting tool as much as a casting tool. But you're right it confusing and limits new entry into the sport. I hate it, but then again who the hell am I. :-/


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

The only I would say Tom is don't go cheap on the reel. Cheaper equipment seems to do a lot of unwanted things when big fish take off a high rate of speed. Good find on the rod.


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

Bought a Scientific Angler Tarpon Series WF-13-F today. No deals there at $64. Found out my spare reel was not a 7/8 but actually a 9/10. So that was a little bit of a bonus. 

It took me about 2 hours to get my knots right :-[ Actually they are probably still wrong ;D I had about a 7 foot tapered leader and fly tied on a 2/0 hook with the point cut off. 

Off to the park I went. I took my 100' measuring tape. I was surprised to find out I could cast consistently over 70'. Even reached 80' several times. 

Casting that thing did wear me out. I quit after about 50 casts because things were getting sloppy. Its hard to hold any type of good form with that big rod once you get tired. I had a problem hitting myself in the back and the arm. Not a good thing if there was a hook on there. I am sure I have some technique issues, hell I don't really even know what a double haul is, but right now I feel like I can hit the water. Besides whats a few holes in my back anyways. ;D

Thanks to everyone who chimed in.


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

if you're throwing a 13wt line 80' or so then I'd say your $100 12wt rod is doing just fine. Nice work too, I may need to get some casting tips from you now.


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

I went with the 13wt line because of all the discussion around TFO having a fast action and that it could handle a heavier line. My interpretation was that a heavier line would slow down the action and therefore be easier to cast. 

Any ideas on what I am doing wrong if I am hitting myself in the back with the fly?


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

When you cast do you face completely forward and try to cast over your shoulder or sideways?


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

I start with my body facing forward but my shoulders turn in the back cast. Probably because I look at my back cast. 

I am not sure if I am casting over my shoulder or sideways. I think I need to video tape my cast for further embarrassments. ;D


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

your stance does have a little to do with it, but most likely the larger contributer is the rod tip is not following the same plane from forward to back. The key here is where ever the rod tip goes the line will surely follow. 

Stand about 3' or so with your casting shoulder next to a wall and try to imagine pushing the rod tip along the intersection of the ceiling and wall as you false cast. That plane and direction shouldn't change much unless you're trying to change direction of the delivered fly, but even then the rotation needs to be gradual. 

What you're probably doing is bringing the rod tip closer to overhead on the forward stroke and since where ever the rod tip goes the line will surely follow and the fly will follow the line and then whack you in the back.


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2008)

> your stance does have a little to do with it, but most likely the larger contributer is the rod tip is not following the same plane from forward to back. The key here is where ever the rod tip goes the line will surely follow.
> 
> Stand about 3' or so with your casting shoulder next to a wall and try to imagine pushing the rod tip along the intersection of the ceiling and wall as you false cast. That plane and direction shouldn't change much unless you're trying to change direction of the delivered fly, but even then the rotation needs to be gradual.
> 
> What you're probably doing is bringing the rod tip closer to overhead on the forward stroke and since where ever the rod tip goes the line will surely follow and the fly will follow the line and then whack you in the back.



Since we decided that my rod is a dud, I'm just going to blame it. ;D ;D ;D ;D I've got no pride. I'm take'n the easy way out. ;D ;D ;D ;D


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

Here is my first attempt. It goes 75' and I show how I was measuring. 





I got my kids to start measuring on this one. Quick 75' cast





Here is a little longer video where I hit 70' and then whack myself in the head on the next cast.


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

brute force style ya got there buddy, brute force.  

80' is 80' though so I'm impressed for sure. Part of the problem is you are using almost 100% of your arm to cast instead of some arm and more wrist and also letting the rod do some work too. Learning to double haul will save you quite a bit of that arm motion as well.

Another issue and its what I mentioned already about the rod tip. When you false cast you can not let the rod tip go horizontal out in front of you and then pull back for another back cast. Remember the line follows the rod tip, so once that tip goes down the line follows it and creates a big ole loop that you can't get out of and this is where you're fly gets out of control as you attempt the back cast and ends up chasing you around the yard a bit as you come forward again. You only lower the rod tip to near horizontal as the fly just about rolls out straight on the final presentation.

But for starters you are definitely getting results. I would work on casting half of what you're doing now though and try to refine those rod motions a bit more to say 11 oclock - 2 oclock arc, which is only approximate btw, but if you try to mimic the push-pull concept of the wall/ceiling thing you get a feel for the right arc that keeps the line up there and the loops tighter.


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

Thanks for all the help. I am sure I can get a little bit better. I am going to try to work on it every day. I will tone it down to a more manageable distance and start working on a better casting technique. I would really like to avoid having hooks removed from my head and back. ;D


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## White_Fly (Jan 15, 2007)

Tom,
Work on getting a shorter cast down pat then slowly add distance. To get that heavy line in the air and keep it up on a long cast you will likely need to work on increasing you line speed and keeping a tight loop. You will need to add a little "haul" on your fore cast. Try working on this with a bit shorter line until you get it down. Then begin adding some distance. You are working really hard! Also work on stopping your rod a little higher on the back cast and stop the rod with a "HARD" stop and don't let you arm drift backwards after the Hard Stop. It will come!!
Jim


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## White_Fly (Jan 15, 2007)

Tom,
Someone described it as being like throwing a DART. It is like a HURRY UP/STOP on the back cast and a HURRY UP/STOP the fore cast. Don't drop your back cast or your fore cast. On your fore cast don't drop it down until the line is straightening out and ready to lay out on the water.
Jim


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## White_Fly (Jan 15, 2007)

Tom,
Someone described it as being like throwing a DART. It is like a HURRY UP/STOP on the back cast and a HURRY UP/STOP the fore cast. Don't drop your back cast or your fore cast. On your fore cast don't drop it down until the line is straightening out and ready to lay out on the water.
Jim


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## White_Fly (Jan 15, 2007)

Sorry about that "DOUBLE HAUL" on the last post. :-[
jim


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## flytieguy (Jan 12, 2007)

I own a tfo pro 12wt and set it up with a rio tarpon line ghost tip med-sinking line... double haul is definitively a plus to do... one thing i learned the hard way... (sore shoulder for 4 weeks and an elbow that just by looking at it hurted) DO NOT POWER stroke a 12wt let the rod do the speed up ... once the inertia of that line is broken... believe me ... it will go.. far.. very far.
Oh... and by the way... i have a 49.95 whitewater reel bought in bass pro holding that line. No issues so far with it.


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