# Observations On The Skiff Market



## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

I have been looking around various skiff builders’ sites to look for any innovations we can incorporate in my skiff refit. In doing so, I thought I'd share what I have gleaned from the market.

One thing that struck me is that some builders are drifting away from their focus on skiffs. I am wondering if it is due to either a general trend or an anticipated future softness in the skiff market. A few observations:

· Most notably, it seems that Egret has abandoned their lower end line, Moccasin. They are launching a 20’ 11” boat, maybe one of the ex-Moccasin hulls?. Not only that, I was surprised to see they now have a 30’ CC with a single Volvo diesel coupled to a duoprop drive. I know back in the day they had a bay boat of sorts, but this is a whole different bird.

· HB’s 24’ Estero looks to be ready. If someone put a gun to my head and told me I had to have a bay boat, this would be my choice. For me it maintains the classic HB lines, but it seems people either love it or hate it.

· No news from Chittum on their lower cost skiffs after all the noise. I do like the custom cooler they built into the forward bulkhead for one Legacy client, though there doesn't seem to be much going on with that model.

· Islamorada seems content with their bay boat sales, though they are facing strong competition from Barker on the high-end segment. I couldn’t find any new info on the Element flats boat; is that still in development?

So it seems all the high-end builders are re-positioning in one way or the other. At the same time, the other mid-range guys seem to be continuing to improve, innovate and concentrate solely on the skiff market. You have to wonder if Ankona is doing the right thing with three different brands; it seems one line may be cannibalizing the other.

We’re all not getting any younger and the general population is ageing, so maybe there is some logic to covering all the bases. My only take-away is the fore-mentioned built-in cooler/step box from Chittum; I guess the only tweaks left are materials and hull design, but jeeze a lot of these guys need to tweak their crap sites as well.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Like Chris Morejohn stated " Just small incremental improvements" About all there is for poling skiffs. Simple tools of the sight fishing trade. Unless the improvements come from the engine power side.


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm fairly new to the game but I have a few observations from doing my own research for the best boat for me.

People either want a "do most things well" bay boat to take out the friends and family and still get in some 10"-14" water to catch fish or they want a skiff to get in really shallow water and sacrifice hauling everyone around and running really fast. 

A lot of the innovators are aging, Chris morejon, flip pallot, etc but there is a growing market of inshore guys in the 20-40 year old range that have made the sport "cool." I think as this generation spends more time in skiffs we'll change things by making small tweaks to make boats pole easier float a little shallower, and run a little faster. But I think all we can do is improve what's out there because the boats already do most of that really well.

I think there will always be a skiff market and I hope it doesn't get too populated because our fish population will suffer. Don't lose faith in the younger generation of skiff people.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I think the influx of builders jumping into the skiff market over the last 5 - 10 years has saturated things to some extent. It's difficult to be innovative when there are some really good designs that have withstood the test of time and are still superior in performance. Skiffs have a limit as to how shallow the will float, how fast they will run and how quiet they can be and at this point the consumer has a ton of great options across different price levels.

The value builders have brought a whole new crowd of people to the flats. A decent skiff used to cost an arm and a leg, not anymore. I also wonder if the influx of people has been aided by the offshore bans on snapper and grouper. I'm not sure if this added pressure has been good for the inshore fisheries as a whole. I also think the water quality issues we are having here in Florida have left the skiff market kind of flat as of lately. I have been seeing a ton of really nice skiff for sale. Many are sitting unsold for a good bit of time which is unusual in the summer time. The boat market in Florida is usually red hot from April - Sept.


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## Dawhoo (Oct 27, 2015)

There must be some great things in these current model years, or else I can't for the life figure out why so many people sell 2014 and 2015 skiffs with less than 50 hours on the engine.


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## GatorFan321 (Jun 8, 2016)

Dawhoo said:


> There must be some great things in these current model years, or else I can't for the life figure out why so many people sell 2014 and 2015 skiffs with less than 50 hours on the engine.


This blows my mind. Ive noticed it too. Someone orders a custom built skiff to their liking then they change their minds I guess? I plan on keeping my ShadowCast for quite some time. It is exactly how I want it. Thats why I ordered it built like I did.


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## Bluwave (Nov 3, 2014)

Dawhoo said:


> There must be some great things in these current model years, or else I can't for the life figure out why so many people sell 2014 and 2015 skiffs with less than 50 hours on the engine.


My guess is that they're tired of a loan payment on a 30-50k boat.


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## kensfl (Oct 22, 2010)

Scott Deal has said that they sell many more Pathfinders than skiffs. It's not even close. Broader market appeal and maybe more profit on a higher priced item--I'm not surprised many companies are building both or at least moving larger.


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## Dawhoo (Oct 27, 2015)

Bluwave said:


> My guess is that they're tired of a loan payment on a 30-50k boat.


I imagine having to deal with that depreciation hit would be tough as well. This is out of the scope of this thread, but I can't fathom financing the majority of a recreational item such as a high end skiff, unless I was a guide and my income depended on it.


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## zthomas (Jan 14, 2014)

Blue Zone said:


> jeeze a lot of these guys need to tweak their crap sites as well.


I've been preaching that for a over a year now -- since starting Overslot Web and Communications -- with limited success. The new Ankona site was my work. But in most cases, marketing is low on the priority list -- especially websites. I suppose if you've got a six-month waiting list, it's easy to dismiss the need. The way I see it, the economy changes and trends come and go. So better to be at the top of the pile when the market starts contracting than in the middle.

I'm amazed how often I hear, "Thanks, but my nephew/wife/buddy/ex/etc. does my website." I'm always tempted to ask, "Would you let them hang your engines or prep your molds to save a few bucks if they offered?"


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Bluwave said:


> My guess is that they're tired of a loan payment on a 30-50k boat.


Yup, they trading those in for 50-70k loans


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## Adam Redden (Apr 8, 2016)

DuckNut said:


> Yup, they trading those in for 50-70k loans


That's what I've gleaned in my relentless scouring of this forum for information. People seem to be going bigger$$$$, not just dumping a payment.


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## GatorFan321 (Jun 8, 2016)

I doubt they're catching any more fish than before either...


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

And when the economy goes tits up again (and it will) they will be all back to John boats and Gheenoes !!!


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## bowersmw (Mar 3, 2011)

Blue Zone said:


> I have been looking around various skiff builders’ sites to look for any innovations we can incorporate in my skiff refit. In doing so, I thought I'd share what I have gleaned from the market.
> 
> One thing that struck me is that some builders are drifting away from their focus on skiffs. I am wondering if it is due to either a general trend or an anticipated future softness in the skiff market. A few observations:
> 
> ...


As far as I'm aware Egret is making more Moccasins than Egrets. The 20'11" was introduced in 2011. The Moccasins derive from the Egret hull not the other way around. There never was a bay boat that I'm aware of but there were a couple of technical poling skiffs in the 15ft length. The 30ft offshore boat was introduced by the original Egret builder. The web site is poor like many builders. 

The design and quality from the new builder is nothing compared to the old boats IMHO and I've owned both. I've had awesome support from the old builder Jim Gardiner trying to figure out the cause and remedy for all the problems while the new builder just ignored my requests for help with serious issues.


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## Padre (Jul 29, 2016)

A couple of things... For one, I am glad they are selling more Pathfinders than Mavericks. Let them have the bay boats. That means less people in the back country. Secondly, I have a new skiff on order. 10 years ago, it would have been a bay boat. But now the kids are all grown up. It is just me and the Mrs. and whoever might be fishing with me that day (and the dog). So life evolves and I can go smaller. So until the skiff is ready, I am dreaming about the long haul out to Broad River and Lostmans Five.


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## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

noeettica said:


> And when the economy goes tits up again (and it will) they will be all back to John boats and Gheenoes !!!


Agreed. The secret to life is to be content with about 30% less than you can pay cash for. The anxiety that arises from debt is 10x the benefit derived from fishing.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Really looking into purchasing a Hells Bay Professional hopefully to be the last boat I ever buy. But honestly I have found a couple other builders with boats I could probably live with just fine that are considerably less costly. I hate debt and currently have none so really thinking about this. Here in TX the vast majority of boats sold seem to be the cats in 21' to 25' range with 150 hp to over 300 hp outboards. With price tags that generally start at 50k and go up quickly from there. I suspect that moving into 2017 and beyond that the economy may not support a whole lot more of these big-ticket boats that are not income producing assets. Depending on who gets the nod for president I may not pursue the HB skiff although I really want one. Health insurance costs escalating into the stratosphere alone may preclude spending 50k to 100k on a boat...

Great topic.


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

bowersmw said:


> As far as I'm aware Egret is making more Moccasins than Egrets. The 20'11" was introduced in 2011. The Moccasins derive from the Egret hull not the other way around. There never was a bay boat that I'm aware of but there were a couple of technical poling skiffs in the 15ft length. The 30ft offshore boat was introduced by the original Egret builder. The web site is poor like many builders.
> 
> The design and quality from the new builder is nothing compared to the old boats IMHO and I've owned both. I've had awesome support from the old builder Jim Gardiner trying to figure out the cause and remedy for all the problems while the new builder just ignored my requests for help with serious issues.


When I started this thread, I couldn't find a mention of the Moccasin on their site. 

Jim Gardiner is a member here on MS (osteg). I am pretty sure he did a bay boat in his Egret era.


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## jsnipes (May 1, 2011)

FYI - Chittum is now producing a bunch of the 'lower cost' version skiffs now. Check their FB or IG, just haven't updated their website.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Lower cost Chittum. Sounds like an oxymoron.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I have a slightly different perspective. Personally I don't think there has been any major innovations in smaller boats in decades. The accessories have changed, power poles, trolling motors, jackplates, fishfinders,....outboards...., but not much else really. Some material upgrades here and there, but the new high dollar skiffs don't perform leaps and bounds above their predecessors really, just slight differences in performance.

I think a lot of what we see is manufactures cashing in on 2 footitis once they have brand recognition and loyalty. Just like any other business they all start small and grow from there if they survive at all. The bigger the boat the more money they can squeeze out of it. 

Think about it a 17ft model doesn't cost much more to produce then a 15ft, but retails for thousands more sometimes. Now keep going, next you come out with a 20ft, then a 22ft.........then when the economy dips you dust off the skiff molds again....when it heats up you shelve them.

Same thing applies to the level of finish. Good economy you see fully loaded boats with full liners, center consoles...... when the economy dips the splatter coated tiller driven skiffs come back in style.


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## Edfish (Jan 4, 2013)

^this seems right...


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Yeah except for us old guys who have 4 or 5 decades in fishing and want to buy the last boat. For real and want the best one. Buying a new Hells Bay Professional and yeah it is expensive but also the last boat I ever intend to buy. Sure some will come on here and argue but so what. Bottom line they are built sweet and I can fish it anywhere from Mexico to Florida. So there's that and someday I dream of living in Florida and learning the Keys and Everglades. In between surf trips to Costa Rica and Puerto Rico etc.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Quality matters.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

I agree. You will not be disappointed if you have owned other skiffs.


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## zach (May 17, 2014)

Dawhoo said:


> There must be some great things in these current model years, or else I can't for the life figure out why so many people sell 2014 and 2015 skiffs with less than 50 hours on the engine.


This. I don't understand it. I've got a deposit on my first ever micro-skiff from what appears to reputable builder. Every day I check this site and see another <12 month old skiff listed for sale. I wonder if I'm missing something...


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

What you may be missing is the work required to pole a skiff in less than ideal conditions. That discovery results in a lot of short interval selling.


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## jsnipes (May 1, 2011)

Also, shit happens and ppl move, take new jobs, make mistakes buying boats, decide they want something else. Humans are impulsive, imperfect creatures. Not sure why people find it surprising that a lot of <2yr boats are for sale.


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

How many less than 2 year old cars do you see for sale. same thing


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## Slacker (Oct 7, 2016)

I'm going to jump in here and get provocative. I think a reason why we see very new micros for sale involves builders who aren't straight with buyers about the real capabilities and limitations of the genre. That problem is complicated by the general unwillingness of owners and reviewers to fairly portray the "cons" of these boats. I think some new and/or young skiff buyers get caught up in the hype only to realize after delivery that they have bought into a compromise with serious limitations as far as general use.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Slacker said:


> I think some new and/or young skiff buyers get caught up in the hype only to realize after delivery that they have bought into a compromise with serious limitations as far as general use.


True story. My friend sold his Caimen to someone who later complained that he could not walk on the "catwalks" because the boat wasn't stable enough. Also that the poling platform couldn't be used because it felt like the boat would tip over.


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

To be honest, I bought my first skiff, and had a buddy literally trick me into selling it to them, two years after I got it. Then my second skiff, I took a buddy fishing on a camping trip who fell in love with the skiff so much he made me a serious cash offer on the skiff that gave me more money than I paid for it two years earlier. 

After selling that one, I figured I wanted to go back to a smaller tiller skiff. Then I needed a mud rig, so I got one of those, too. But now I found myself with two small tiller skiffs, which doesn't make much sense to me. So I put one up for sale and ordered a larger, more open water capable skiff that'll have more power and remote steering. So I will have one small tiller boat and the bigger skiff for tarpon season.

I've seen a lot of skiffs similar to mine, sell much quicker, for way more money. Makes me wonder if I am asking too little for mine.


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## bowersmw (Mar 3, 2011)

zach said:


> This. I don't understand it. I've got a deposit on my first ever micro-skiff from what appears to reputable builder. Every day I check this site and see another <12 month old skiff listed for sale. I wonder if I'm missing something...


Call up those sellers and find out why they are selling. Make a punch list and inspect the hell out of it before you take delivery. Bring some friends to look it over too. Once they have your money they will be much less likely to fix something.


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## Timucua_Outdoors (Oct 15, 2016)

Egret line of boats is made for fishing the flats of Texas and LA in that case they don't have to sarifice width and length to have a shallow draft. The producer has to match to there customers and egrets customers mainly fish Texas and LA flats so they don't need to have a smaller boat as folks in Florida, South Carolina and Ga do. It is the same with the other companies they are just adapenting to what the consumer needs.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

This line of reasoning is pretty much spot on because in many ways TX is not at all like FL. Unfortunately. Which is not to say a well-adapted TPS will not function very well in TX waters. As well there is quite a diversity in ecosystems even from upper coastal area compared to deep south TX. But for me there are two main things that lead me to want to buy a TPS from FL: wanted to really get into salt water fly fishing (need a much quieter hull to work with) and secondly the FL boats typically just have much better build quality than the TX boats do. And my own [multiple] experiences bear that out too. In TX, a lot of the time the boat is just used as a taxi to get to where they will get out and wade. In FL, the boat typically is used much more as a technical tool in the overall approach. Very interesting discussion.


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## Timucua_Outdoors (Oct 15, 2016)

You are right there are different styles of fishing from Texas to Georgia and the Carolinas to Florida. The companies adapt to there costumers and how they use the boat to fish these different styles.The companies are doing everything right by adapting to there customers and how they fish. Everyone just needs to find the company that fits there style of fishing.


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## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

I think you will find that very few people can answer the question "is this a good boat?" Most substitute the question with "is this a reputable company?" or "do other people like this boat?" Including myself, I have not met anyone on this forum that has analyzed the forces on a hull and knows the material properties of resin and cloth. Everyone I meet will pay extra money for a skiff that has Kevlar without asking where the Kevlar is and why its needed. The response that makes me laugh the most is "its on the outside to help with abrasion resistance" Even Hells Bay puts Kevlar on the wrong side, they always have and likely always will. Animal Spirits will keep the sheep flocking to these over priced items. Evolution has favored belief to reason. Belief is automatic, its easy. Reason takes precious time and effort; it requires you to override a built in layer of protection(beliefs) which is incredibly painful. Suppose you are walking along and you hear something in a bush. You jump and take the long way around because its better to believe a threat exists and avoid it than reason the threat away and perish. This is the reason people exhibit brand loyalty, buy insurance, go to church, have biases, believe fake news articles, vote for someone without a plan or any relevant experience.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I was with you until the last sentence, which I would remove or at least edit if I were you. Inserting your personal ideology into a decent boat discussion? Not cool.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Good grief dude, lighten up. It was a well put together thought.


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## Padre (Jul 29, 2016)

I buy insurance because someone makes me.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I agree with the exception of last sentence. Statements like that belong on other forums, because they cause issues that we don't need.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Dawhoo said:


> There must be some great things in these current model years, or else I can't for the life figure out why so many people sell 2014 and 2015 skiffs with less than 50 hours on the engine.


First, as has been stated, microskiffs are very, very simple creatures regardless of build type or material. Despite all the marketing hype, microskiffs have much more in common with a jonboat than the manufactures would have you believe. As a result, two-foot-itis/the seven-year itch/lust for new hotness is almost inevitable and lots of folks, some faster than others, upgrade to something bigger, shinier, faster and more comfortable.

Second, microskiffs are niche boats for most people and should really be a second hull. This forum doesn't stress that enough and many people do not truly understand that prior to purchase. Poling around the back country without another boat in sight sounds sexy and this image sells a lot of microskiffs. However, once you have a microskiff, you must immediately accept that you should avoid big water crossings, long runs aren't fast or comfortable, you can't pull the kids on a tube, it isn't fun to anchor in 30' of water over a brush pile to catch crappy on a windy day, you can't load your buddies on it and run out to the sandbar, etc. If you don't already have an all-around hull, you are sacrificing a lot of capabilities in order to catch (likely fewer) fish in a very specific manner. If you are limited to a single boat, the all-around hull is usually a better option than a microskiff. Lots of microskiffs get sold once the owners realize they can't live with the limitations.

Nate


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

People's ideas of "comfortable" are so varied this is hard to define. 
For a lot of folks being able to run 40 across the open bay and haul three or four buddies and all their beer, gear etc is comfortable. 
If I can't run the back lakes to get away from the masses I am not comfortable but as far as everything else other than being able to run across the open bay wide open and hauling a group of people, I believe most of it is very doable in a poling skiff. If you are considering a 16'10" skiff with a 70 a micro anyway...


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

WhiteDog70810 said:


> First, as has been stated, microskiffs are very, very simple creatures regardless of build type or material. Despite all the marketing hype, microskiffs have much more in common with a jonboat than the manufactures would have you believe. As a result, two-foot-itis/the seven-year itch/lust for new blingy hotness is almost inevitable and lots of folks, some faster than others, upgrade to something bigger, shinier, faster and more comfortable.
> 
> Second, microskiffs are niche boats for most people and should really be a second hull. This forum doesn't stress that enough and many people do not truly understand that prior to purchase. Poling around the back country without another boat in sight sounds sexy and this image sells a lot of microskiffs. However, once you have a microskiff, you must immediately accept that you should avoid big water crossings, long runs aren't fast or comfortable, you can't pull the kids on a tube, it isn't fun to anchor in 30' of water over a brush pile to catch crappy on a windy day, you can't load your buddies on it and run out to the sandbar, etc. If you don't already have an all-around hull, you are sacrificing a lot of capabilities in order to catch (likely fewer) fish in a very specific manner. If you are limited to a single boat, the all-around hull is usually a better option than a microskiff. Lots of microskiffs get sold once the owners realize they can't live with the limitations.
> 
> Nate


Spot on Nate. But for life time saltwater baby boomers like me, the guys who have owned a few large fishing boats and maybe have some blue water experience, the skiff becomes the ultimate fish hunters challenge. The irony is we are often at the edge of being physically able to push the skiff through the wind, mud, oyster, and mangroves.


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## J-Dad (Aug 30, 2015)

sjrobin said:


> Spot on Nate. But for life time saltwater baby boomers like me, the guys who have owned a few large fishing boats and maybe have some blue water experience, the skiff becomes the ultimate fish hunters challenge. The irony is we are often at the edge of being physically able to push the skiff through the wind, mud, oyster, and mangroves.


And it's that physical aspect that's the most appealing part of these skiffs.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Yes J-Dad I am with you - Hard work usually produces great rewards. I will say that had Morejohn"s skiff designs been available in the 80's I would have been using them. Wading, aluminum boats, airboats, kayaks, pirogues, and canoes are not even close to the efficiency of the modern skiff for hunting fish shallow.


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

For me, I fished offshore a lot as a kid with my dad on his boat, and a few of his friends on theirs. When it came time for me to get my own boat I went through a progression much like i'm sure a lot of y'all did. I had a Carolina skiff (essentially a fiberglass jon boat) that got me in the water where I learned inshore fishing. 

Then a bay boat where I was at first I was all about catching and keeping as many fish as I could. Then it was catching and releasing as many as I could. Then it was redfish tournaments and running around all over creation as fast as I could go. 

Finally I sold that because Fly fishing caught my attention and I am more about the thrill of stalking a fish or two all day and making them eat a fly that I tied in places that very few people get to go. It's a very small niche market and I see it for me as a small community like bow hunters and MX racers. If you think about it, any small niche type of hobby is going to more expensive because so few people actually are involved enough to buy the toys.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

mtoddsolomon said:


> Finally I sold that because Fly fishing caught my attention and I am more about the thrill of stalking a fish or two all day and making them eat a fly that I tied in places that very few people get to go. It's a very small niche market and I see it for me as a small community like bow hunters and MX racers. If you think about it, any small niche type of hobby is going to more expensive because so few people actually are involved enough to buy the toys.


Well said mate. Very accurate description of the progression.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

WhiteDog70810 said:


> sacrificing a lot of capabilities in order to catch (likely fewer) fish in a very specific manner


Absoloutely. Well put, great post! 
I wouldn't trade 10 big bulls on a gulp skrimp under a popping cork, for 1 stalked, hard earned upper slot taken with a perfect cast, of a fly I tied. I'm not knocking the other ways of fishing at all, but working hard, sneaking up on a fish and positioning to get to take that shot .......the feeling to me is completely different. To me that feeling is what sells these boats. 
LH


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