# New Microskiff homebuild - 13'



## Andrewp

Here are some pics of the balsa model I made (rough!).  Scale is 1" = 1', so the model is 13" long and 4" wide (3" on the bottom).

There is a center seat; not sure exactly where this will fit but will balance out later with me in the boat.  Will probably need a tiller extender.  

I'm trying something out with the diamond gussets used as braces instead of full-running forms running across the boat.  The idea is that this opens up the boat better for flyfishing and moving around in general.  Will they work?  Sure hope so .....

Not sure how much of the bow I will cover -- maybe not this much as I do want to keep weight down.  But I do need an area to store life jacket, rope, anchor, etc.

From bow ...



From side and bow ....



From side and stern ...


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## Brett

I think you'd be able to get more width than that
and still fit the back of a truck. Width is displacement
and stability when it comes to small boat design.
Plenty of space in a standard pickup to load a hull, see?
That's a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood in the bed...
Based on my measurements, chine width about 46 inches, shear height 16 inches
gunnel width 56 inches, and with the tailgate down a 12 foot overall length...
Don't be surprised when the TLAR method produces a good looking hull.


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## firecat1981

Hold on a second there sport! Where do you get off calling my boat beautiful and square???

Brett, Brian, and myself all built our boats to fish, not cruise the friday night boat show . My rig looked great in pictures but when you got within 10ft you could see it was definately a workboat finish.

As far as squareness goes.....Well it wasn't quite, but it was close enough that it did the job well. That's the beauty of the stitch and glue meathod of building boats, no micrometer needed 

I dig the model, but I will caution you against using balsa to do it. Balsa flexes alot more then plywood, even the thin stuff so you might not be able to make the curves as you are planning when you build full scale. I might have missed this, but what kind of power are you putting on it, and where do you fish?


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## Frank_Sebastian

Hello AP,

Mr Michalak (rhymes with metallic) once worked for the same company as I did and lived in the Coco area. I have a couple of his designs including Rogue.

Rogue is a 10' rowboat. I built it from Moorland UltraplyXL and Raka epoxy and glass. It weighs 58# and rows well. The power boat won't row as well, but will have greater initial stability. Below is the site for Moorland which I purchased at Lowe's.

http://www.morelandcompany.com/ultraplyXL.htm

Good luck with your build and best regards,
Frank_S


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## Andrewp

Thanks for your responses ....

Brett:  I have a mini-truck (4 cy), so trust me, I'm getting the most width I can from the bed.  Did all the same things you did to make sure everything will fit.  I am a bit concerned about width (3' bottom) and stand-up stability; would love it wider, but I can stand in my narrower kayak right now, so hopefully ok.  I won't be getting up on any decks for-sure!  Sides are 16" ......  I'll post some pics of a full-scale styrofoam model shortly ......

FireCat -- I know about the flex issues with balsa, but I think I'll be ok with the curves.  They won't be as smooth in full-size as they are on the model -- a more definitive chine line to make the bow "V".  There will be a little curve and twist, but hopefully nothing that 1/4" ply can't handle (he says with fingers crossed!) ....  

Oh, and probably run no more than a 5hp.

Frank:  Yeah, love Jim's designs, and his plans are pretty inexpensive when compared to others.  I've already sent him an email or two; he's replied quite promptly, which gives you some added confidence if you run into a situation and you're not sure how to proceed ....

Thx for link on Ultraply; my closest Lowes did not have .. maybe I need to place a few calls to other Lowes locations to see which one carries .......


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## firecat1981

Just a thought, but if you only have 3 feet to work with then perhaps it's worth looking into a water vessel of a different type. What about a wood kayak/canoe hybrid? or build a kayak that can be powered and has a stand for fly fishing? Something with low freeboard and a low center of gravity to maximize stability. It would be easy to make some outriggers also.


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## Andrewp

FC: I thought about that ... already own a kayak, have built a 16' pirouge that I could have put trolling motor on .... just wanted to try something a bit wider. I am concerned about the stability; we'll see how tippy it is once completed. I have an idea for a removable/adjustable outrigger system that could be easily deployed off one side to give additional stability. Might end up having to build that in too ....

I know this would all be a lot easier if (a) I had a bigger truck or (b) I could get a trailer in the garage so that I could build a wider boat. But, I have to work with what I got .......... :-/


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## Brett

I once had an aluminum jon that didn't fit in the truck bed.
Added 2x4 crosspieces and runners to the top of the bed to allow
me to set the boat atop the bed. Still below the top of the cab.
Also let me keep the outboard, gear and cooler in the bed.
Made for easier transport and loading...possible solution?
  
                                       :-?


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## firecat1981

Dang Brett I was just about to suggest something like that , great minds.......... ;D

AP seriously though Brett is right on, make a support system somewhere above the wheelwells and then you can make the boat much wider. Personally if I couldn't get atleast 40 inches wide at the bottom, then I'd stick with the kayak for now and just build some outriggers for it. Then again I'm sure I'm a little bigger then you so stability is my friend! :-[


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## Swamp

> But, I have to work with what I got .......... :-/


Necessity is the mother of invention!

I agree with Brett and Firecat, see about getting the hull above the wheel wells, or leaving the tail gate up like when you get a full sheet of ply.  If you have a bed that is less than 48" (where the tops of the wells are outside the bed), just put 2x4's all the way across.  Just be careful that the boat can't get loose and go thought the back window.  Sounds like a gun going off.  Ask me how I know this. :-[

Question, is that a seat or center console in the model? Might be a bit far back if it is a CC unless you plan on putting lots of weight in the bow.

Looking forward to the process/results of your build.

Swamp


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## WhiteDog70810

You can fit more boat into a compact truck than you think (you might need an Extend-A-Truck).  That was one of my parameters when I drew mine up.  My original drawing was 37" across the bottom at 8', which puts the widest point behind the wheel wells (my design is 16').  Of course by the time I actually started my build I had bought a full size truck, so I let myself play with the design a bit.  

The most I could fit between the wheel wells (`04 Mazda B2300) was 36" across the bottom at 45" forward of the transom, which was roughly how far the end of the wheel wells are from the front of the bed.  The 36" is based on 4.5" of flare, so it would ultimately be 45" wide across the rails by the end of the wheel wells.  That measurement dictated the overall shape of the boat and the widest I could make it was 37" (46" across the rails) without having a dinky transom.  The transom was about 30" wide at the bottom/39" across the top.  

Once I got the bigger truck, I redrew my design with 6" of flare and a 40" bottom at 8' (52" across the top).  I will now have to place 2x6 rails under it to carry it in the little truck, but that isn't a big issue.

Nate


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## Andrewp

Thanks to all for the suggestions of a truckbed support system. I'll take a look at that. I need to keep in mind weight (keep it down!), and I'm concerned about height as I will be dragging this on/off the truckbed ...... But Brett did bring up a good point about transport of the motor, gas, etc ....

I've seen pics of this plan already built and running, so I keep telling myself it will be ok. Have to do some more measuring and comptemplating before starting to cut ply. Right now I have some time as I haven't purchased ply yet. I'm working on the strongback, so that'll keep me busy for a little bit .....


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## Andrewp

OK, for those comptemplating a build, you can easily full-scale your design -- in styrofoam board.  Boards are $9 each (4' x 8' x 1/2") at your local BigBox, you cut with a knife (a bit messy, have a vac ready!) and then use packing tape to assemble.

So here's mine, roughly done, with 3' bottom and 4' max width, 13' long.  I did not finish the bow area as I really was doing this to see how the boat would fit into the truckbed.

Side view ...



Stern view ...



Top view ...



Wheel well view -- side just getting by .....




So everything fits.  Brett did bring up an excellent point about transport of motor, gas, etc.  I thought about locking motor onto extend-a-bed and resting the lower unit on the tailgate area.  Note sure there is enough room. Have to make sure everything will fit ...... otherwise motor will have to be placed inside of boat for transport (worried about damage to boat if I do that) ....


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## oysterbreath

Glad to see that you are cranking up. Just let me know when the extra opposible thumbs are needed...


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## WhiteDog70810

Oh, you're putting it in the bed bow first! I didn't think that plan would fit between the wheel wells, but I was visualizing putting the heavy end toward the cab. I guess with the Extend-A-Truck, it really doesn't matter.

You can carry the motor in the boat without hurting the boat if you support the bottom with rails.

Nate


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## Andrewp

Well, that was how I first thought it would work best. With the idea of truckbed support system, I can re-think whether or not the boat can be transported bow-first, stern-first, rightside-up or turned over. I've got the full-sized model, so if I can design a support system, I can do a few more tests ....

I've already got the wood cut for the beginnings of the strongback. 2' wide. Secured the ends, now need to secure the middle braces and add cross-members or gussets to brace against wobble. What would be a recommended height to raise the strongback? 24"? I plan on putting removeable casters under the legs so I can roll everything in/out of the garage. Once out in the driveway, I can remove casters and (hopefully quickly) shim to level, and start work ....... thoughts on that?? Just can't work (at least I can't sand) in the garage ......


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## WhiteDog70810

My stongback is 24" high. Most of my frames are mounted 19 3/4" above that for a total height of 44 1/2". I may cuss that height once I start fairing the bottom, but it seems pretty nice now and it will allow me to work in the bottom of the boat when I flip the hull and have to work over the sides. I made the legs and cross members 24" because it was an easy number to do math with. The 19 3/4" is just what it takes to give myself 1 1/2 " of clearance under the shear when the bottom is level.

Nate


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## WhiteDog70810

I just realized that 24" + 19 3/4" don't equal 44 1/2". The 1/2" ply of the bottom and the shims necessary to get the strongback level lead to the 44 1/2" height on the corner I measured.

Nate


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## Andrewp

> .....  I built it from Moorland UltraplyXL and Raka epoxy and glass. It weighs 58# and rows well. The power boat won't row as well, but will have greater initial stability. Below is the site for Moorland which I purchased at Lowe's.
> 
> http://www.morelandcompany.com/ultraplyXL.htm
> 
> Good luck with your build and best regards,
> Frank_S



Frank, thanks once again for this ....

For anyone interested, I contacted Lowes to find out about Ultraply.  It looks like Lowes is in the process of changing out the stock.  The old stock number was #80246, the new stock number is #84143.  Lowes stores should start getting this new # and material shortly.  The Lowes closest to me will get it around the 14th of this month.  It's still stamped with "Ultraply" says the Lowes rep.  I'll go check it out as soon as it arrives, and if good stuff I'll purchase.


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## Andrewp

I got a little bit of time to work on the strongback this weekend.  Constructed of 2x4s, it is 12' long by 2' wide and also 2' high.  I have casters for the feet so I can roll this guy in/out of the garage.  The casters will be removeable so I can then prop up the strongback to get it level.  I'm not sure if I need any more bracing ........

Anyway, here are pics ...



Here's one from the front ...




So next up will be purchase of plywood, hopefully this coming weekend -- assuming Lowes get's their new Ultraply shipment in.  I'll be able to start cutting out frames, sides, etc., but might have to wait another week or two to get funds to purchase epoxy supplies.  I have some old epoxy (like 1-2 years old); have to see if it is any good.  I do have TightBong glue, so I could glue framing lumber to forms I guess ........


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## Swamp

You may want to put in some 45* 2" X 4" braces or metal L braces (more $) to the legs. I'm concerned that it will get wobbly in a short period of time otherwise, especially if you want to roll it back and forth. The problem with soft wood is the screw holes will deform and loosen things up, good bracing slows that process. Looks good otherwise.

Swamp


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## WhiteDog70810

I love being the voice of experience now!

More legs, you need more legs!  It makes it hard to shim, but those 2x4s are gonna sag in the middle of a 12' span once they are under load.  Also, when you start grinding off ugly epoxy chunks with the Surform, the entire strongback will start to walk around.  Ask me how I know.  
:-[
My strongback is heavier and my boat is bigger than what you are planning.  Despite that, every time I clean up a joint, my strongback walks off its shims.  I get kinda pissed about that because it means rasping takes longer.  Grinding an epoxy seam in not a job you want to savor any longer than absolutely necessary.

I stacked extra lumber on the crossbracing of my legs for weight.  I would bolt the whole thing to floor of the garage it this wasn't a rental house.  Yours is mobile, so you'll have to find a creative way to get it to hold still.

Swamp Skiff is right.   Get some form of diagonal braces across the frame to make it hold its form.  The repetitive vibration of rasping and sanding will cause pine to get loose.  I used ply triangles on some corners in the middle of the frame.  45 degree braces to the legs are a good plan.  I didn't do that because I thought I would have enough mass to resist front and back motion.  I was worried more about twisting across the frame.  I haven't had a problem, but I probably should have braced the legs also, if only just to make the dang thing heavier.

Nate


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## Andrewp

With all the additional bracing being suggested, I wonder if my strongback will end up weighing more than the boat!!!!   

I sat on the strongback and can see how it could develop some sag on the 12' length, but then again, I'm 200+ lbs and the boat should be under 100.  But I probably will add some bracing to sides and some ply gussetts on corners.

Still haven't decided if I'm building rightside up or upside down.  Trying to weigh pros/cons of both.  If boat was heavier/bigger, I'm pretty sure I'd build upside down.  But I built (lighter) pirougues rightside up without any issues, so I'm just not sure yet.

Getting ply this weekend (hopefully) where I can then start layingout design and making cuts ......


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## WhiteDog70810

"I wonder if my strongback will end up weighing more than the boat" 

I'd recommend it. Increased mass = increased inertia.

Both factions (rightside up or upside down) are equally verbal about the benefits of their approach. I won't bore you with my opinion. When there are multiple answers to any common problem, it means that the answers probably are about the same in the end. Otherwise, there would be only one answer.

If you are having trouble deciding, flip a coin.

Nate


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## oysterbreath

Nevermind, swampskiff touched on all of my points. I didn't read his post before repling

Aweman! Dude, you gonna need some kickers or simson strong ties on those legs. Nate is right, they gonna wobble as the humidity in the wood changes and the nails bite/ compress the wood as constant weight is applied.  If you only wanted to go with legs on the extrem egdes of the strongback I would have gone with 2x6 on your strong back joist. We'll se how it works out as-is though! I still think you should have built a variation of the "canoe craft" strong back but it's all good. You set up shouldn't fail thought but since you are gonna use casters you REALLY want to secure those legs because you are introducing some additional dynamic forces.


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## Andrewp

Nothing exciting to post (and no pics this time) except that plywood was purchased from Lowes -- their Luan Underlayment. Kinda warped sheets of ply, I guess because the Luan in only on one side. Hopefully it will all end up acceptable once items are cut out and glued together .....

Drew out lines for all cuts, but didn't have time to make the cuts yet -- maybe this week. Bought a new battery-powered mini-circular saw (5" blade) which should make cutting the ply a bit easier than using the standard-corded saw.

Will also add the additional bracing on the strongback and finish up on the removeable casters-wheels. Pics of that when done ....

A little more cash this weekend means I can go ahead and order the epoxy, flour, micro-balloons, fiberglass tape, etc so I can then get serious about putting things together .... meanwhile I will do the items above and then attach the forms to the strongback and get everything square(ish) and level(ish) ...


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## WhiteDog70810

Warped ply? Find a bunch of cinder blocks or something equivalently heavy. You will save yourself some major headaches if you get the ply to lay flat across the joints. I see guys do it with a couple of bottles of epoxy resin per joint, but mine didn't respond to that little weight. Brett recommended making a sandwich of your joint between layers of plastic and 1/2" MDF on both sides. You then use big C-clamps to press the sandwich flat. I didn't have enough clamps for my big joints, but otherwise I think it was the best approach. I used a modification of the technique on some other smaller joints and it worked great.

Nate


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## Andrewp

Jeez, things sure take longer than expected .....

I finally finished cutting all boat parts out from 1/4" ply. The little 5" battery-powered circular saw is not up to the task. I had to recharge the battery about 5 times to get all the cuts done. When you add in charging time ..... took way too long to get things done. Don't think this purchase was worth it (cheapo unit from Harbor Freight). Would not recommend anyone purchase, not sure if it would make it more than 8' through 1/2" ply without needing a re-charge ....... 

Cooler weather this weekend; maybe I can get more work done without sweating into my glasses ..... 

Slowly making progress and now have to watch Brett build yet another boat, probably before I can get this one in the water!!


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## Brett

Not true AP, you've already decided which boat to build.
I'm still at the "hmmm, nope...not quite right" stage.
I figure I'll be watching you complete your build, and still adjusting mine.

                                     ;D


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## Andrewp

No work accomplished this weekend because, of all things, my garage door broke!! Door came down on something and has jumped track. Almost impossible to move door even 2-3". Have to wait for repair -- hopefully this weekend, and of course that money is taken away from boatbuilding 

The only good news of the weekend, which in some ways affects this build, is that I got a new (used) vehicle, a Honda Ridgeline. The bed of the truck, while wider, is shorter. I still have my test styrofoam boat; was going to measure everything until broken garage door put a halt to all boatbuilding efforts ..... 

Glad I wasn't in a hurry on this build .....
:-/


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## Andrewp

Nothing new expect a few photos of the cut-out parts all laid out (except inside braces).  If you look at the pics, you can kinda get an idea of how everything will zip up, how the bow will form the "V" .........

From Bow ....



From Stern



Close-up of bow area




When I cut the sides out, I simply flipped the one piece, traced it's outline, and then cut out the second piece.  I did a better job than I thought I would, as there are only a few places where I need to do a little sanding to get both pieces equal.

Discovered wife had torn up my sander in her last project, so I'm off this weekend to get both a belt sander as well as a small orbital sander ....


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## oysterbreath

Hey you dang woodchuck quit chucking my wood!
Get R done man!

Shorter shouldn't be an issue. Yous till have your bed extender right?


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## B.Lee

Having not looked at the Michalak plans recently, I'm interested to see how that bow looks assembled. Pretty cool so far!

As for the floor and the triangle frames, I'll tell you from my experience how it'll work. 

My bottom is 4' at the widest beam, and mostly flat, although the forward few feet of cockpit floor is slightly curved. I built up the floor with two laminated layers of luan. My side frames extend 8" into the floor, leaving roughly 32" x 72" of open, non-stringered floor. It flexes pretty good. 

Next time I'll use full width frames and stringers, or at minimum 1/2" for the floor. With your flat bottom/floor, you could easily use 1/2" ply for those flat sections, and it'll be much stronger.


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## Andrewp

B Lee: It's a trade-off. I'm trying to keep weight down because I will be wrestling this boat on/off the bed of the truck (no trailer). There are stringers on the underside of the bottom that I hope will stiffen things up enough. Also, my boat bottom is only 3' across, so maybe less width will equal a little more stiffness. Guess time will tell ......


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## Andrewp

Sorry, no pics this time, but should have some for next post ....

Slow progress but things are literally coming together ....

Got plywood sides joined. Used both fiberglass tape as well as a butt-splice (wood) plate. Tape on both sides of the joint. Used regular epoxy to soak tape, then thickened it up with pine flour dust for the actual joint and for the plate. I hope the plate will become part of the decorative effect on the boat (finished natural). Same work for bottom of boat.

Also got framing sticks cut and installed on temporary forms. Got the transom framing sticks cut but not yet glued to transom. I have to cut in the bevels for side (5 degree) and bottom (15 degree) of the transom before gluing sticks to transom. Still have two temp forms to cut from 1x2 or 1x4s but rain yesterday stopped me short.

Still, good chance we will get to 3D this weekend, and of course that's where it starts really looking like a boat .....

AP


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## Andrewp

We go 3D!!

Earlier, I had mentioned that I had joined the two pieces sides and bottom with tape and a plate.  Here are pics of the side and the bottom panels.  A 3" fiberglass tape on both sides and the butt plate over the top for added security.  I left gaps for being able to tape the bottom chine and for an internal rubrail at the top of the side.  I hope to leave the plates natural while I paint the rest of the sides/bottom just to give some character to the boat ....

Side plate ...



Bottom plate ...




But there were some things to do first before going 3D.  I had to finish making the temporary forms and getting them framed out.  Had to cut a 15 degree bevel for the transom and a 5 degree side bevel for the transom.  Tricky cuts to keep straight in your head and make sure you cut the correct way!  On the transom I first screwed the 2x4 frames to the plywood transom, then backed out the screws, glued with thickened epoxy, and then screwed back together.  Got out clamps and clamped everything, let it start to dry and then took out screws before everything was solid.  On all of the other temporary frames, I simply screwed the frames onto the plywood - no glue needed.

So, here is a picture of the frames, including the transom:



I then got the two sides, clamped them together, and found areas where one side was cut slightly different than the other.  Smoothed everything out and matched them up using a Stanley SureForm.  I was surprised and pleased at how well the sureform worked in bringing down the sides of the 1/4" plywood.

Pic of sureform like the one I used:










Thanks to someone here (Brett, Nate, FireCat??) -- with one of your build posts -- on reminding me to use this tool!  

So after sides are evened up, I started putting in the temporary forms.  Had to have assistance with someone holding pieces while I drilled/screwed to get things together, but after a bit of time and head-scratching making sure things were where they were supposed to be, it was done.

By this time it was late and I was running out of daylight, and had gone ahead and moved everything back into the garage before remembering to take a picture, so forgive the low light condition and not-so-great pics; I'll get some better ones next time.

3D pics from side and bow:






In the last shot you can see that the bow bildge panels will eventually be connected to the side panel and the bottom, which you can just see .....

Anyway, next up is getting on external rubrails -- first set is 1x4 pine, outside of that will be 1x2 Douglas Fir.  Got to scarph them to proper length, of course.  That should help stiffen up the boat.  Assuming that everything is relatively straight, I'll then start attaching the bottom with zip ties and/or duct tape and start the epoxy and tape ...

That's it for now, but a pretty productive weekend!!

AP


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## Brett

Surform and a block plane,
2 of the handiest small tools in wood working.


I'm still watching... [smiley=happy.gif]


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## oysterbreath

Awe, sweet man! Good to see her go 3D!
Looking good so far! Now we've got something to talk about at FnL!


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## Andrewp

Progress is slow, but steady.

This weekend I started pre-assembling the rub-rails, clamping them into position on the boat.  When I did that, I noticed that the two sides did not match up.  One side had a nice sheer line, the other was flat if not even a little bowed in. (I wish I had remembered to take photos of this so you could visually see it better!)

What the ??!!!??!!??    

If you look at the pictures of the boat in my last post, notice how you can see the bend in the right side of the boat (left side as you look head-on in the pic) near the transom.  See that?

I finally figured out I had made an incorrect angle cut for the right-side temp frames.  So, by easing out the angles on these frames, I was able to eliminate the flat spot and get everything to look much more fair.  Here's a pic of how I eased one of the frames ....



The second temp frame needed even more adjustment ...



Yeah, I can flat-out butcher some angle cuts ......  

So after adjusting the two temp frames like this, I was able to get a much truer, fairer (?) line with the rub-rails.  I then scarph-cut the first set of rub-rails, glued them up,  and set them aside to dry.

Next was the gluing of the transom to the bottom.  Easy enough -- mix epoxy/wood flour,  un-do screws holding bottom to transom, apply glue, screw back tight.

Then I started stitching the sides and bottom together with zip ties ....

Finally started attaching the bow bildge panels to both the side panels and the bottom panel.  Finished one side and only then remembered to get the camera to take some pics ...

Shot showing one bildge panel in place with ties ....



From underneath so you can see the one panel installed and the other side where the temp frame for the bow is located ....




Attempted to install the other panel, and the parts did not fit so well.  Not unexpected, as the plans designer said to cut a bit oversized and then adjust to get proper fit.  With my lousy cutting skills, there will be areas needing serious adjustment ....

So, for next time I should be installing motor mount (oak) on transom, installing first set of rub-rails, and then getting those bilge panels adjusted to fit better ...

Then after that, I can get serious about epoxying the seams and taping ....


AP


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## joshuabward

Great post keep it up. Any progress is more progress than my project. It seems every time I get a little extra coin I have to pay a bill or my wife thinks we need something for the house. ;D


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## oysterbreath

Sweet man! Looking good so far! Next time you have to do some angle cuts try to leave the pizza with the special shrooms alone! ;-)


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## Andrewp

I didn't get as much done this weekend because I took some time out to do a little of this ....



But on to boat-bulding  ....   


I spent some time playing around with puzzle-cuts (see my next post) and this took away from direct time spent on the boat.  But a few things did get done ....


Last time I was gluing up rubrails.  I tried something a little different.  I cut the rails with the table saw as sharp as I could with the guide (did not want to do this free-hand).  I glued the rails with TiteBond III and also secured them with a screw.  In addition, I covered one side of the rail with a piece of 'glass tape and soaked in more TiteBond.   Everything seems to have worked pretty well.  I then test-fitted the rails to the boat and snapped this pic ....




I didn't feel like I had enough clamps for both sides, so I have just glued up one side and will get to the other side later this week once it warms up a bit.

I fixed the bow bildge panels, zip-tied them in, and have started "spot-welding" the bottom and sides.  Will finish that up this weekend, and I think will then be in good shape to remove the temp forms and start really 'glassing the chines on the inside of the boat.

Oh, and I finally placed casters on the bottom of my strongback so I can move the whole assembly in/out of the garage without calling for assistance.

So when it warms up, I'll glue on the rail to the other side and continue spot-welding.

Steady as she goes there, mate .......


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## Andrewp

So ...... Puzzle cuts.

Had a discussion with Brett on the merit of doing puzzle cuts when securing large sections of plywood together -- this instead of creating a scarf joint, or simply butt-gluing with a backing plate or securing with tape.

The idea behind the cuts is that your two sides have a greater area of glue contact than when simply butting up two pieces of wood.  The question was how easy would it be to make these joints with simple wood-working tools.

So, the theory of this cut was that two pieces of plywood could be overlapped, and as long as you cut on the overlap, you would create a perfect joint.  To test this yourself, just get two pieces of paper, overlap (secure with tape so they don't move) and cut where the paper overlaps with sizzors.  Now mate the pieces up -- amazing, eh?  They fit right together!!

So now, let's try this with real wood.  1/4" plywood to be exact.

I've got two pieces of ply up on some braces so I can do a cut with my jigsaw.  I will overlap the ply 3".  Drew a pencil mark to line up the overlap and secured the two ply pieces to try to keep them from wiggling.  Draw another line on the second piece so you know the area you can cut inside.  So, I will be wasting 6" (3" per each board) in order to do this cut:



Now, do the cut ..... just randomly cutting, no particular pattern.  I will say you have to cut slow in order to make tight turns with the jigsaw ..... so you finally end up with this:



Why such a crappy cut?  Well, as I was cutting, the ply pieces were moving around on me.  One of the things I discovered is that you have to lock the two pieces of ply together.  Because if you get any wiggle in the cuts, this is what you end up with:



Yup, those two pieces are pushed together as close as they can go.  Pretty crappy.  But I think I can do better, since I know the ply wiggling caused the big gaps.  So cut off the bad stuff and get straight pieces again ........

So the next time, I overlapped by 5", but secured the two pieces of ply with screws in the extra 2", leaving room for 3" of cutting.  Lets try the cut again ......



Much smoother!!  Let's take it apart and then match up the two pieces ......



Much, much better!!  There still is a gap -- it's not like these two pieces snapped in place -- but the gap is pretty small.

I didn't glue these two pieces together yet.  What would you have me do -- just some slightly thickened epoxy in the joints and see how it holds?

However ...........

Now after going through this exercise, I'm not really sure if it is worth it.  Thinking about securing 4' of ply to each other, and then laboriously jig-sawing the puzzle cuts -- I don't think there is any time savings vs. either scarfing or butt-joining.  Maybe if the glue joints shows a lot of hold, but right now I'm not quite as enthused with the puzzle-cut idea as I was at first ........

Appreciate anyone else's thoughts on this .....


----------



## Brett

The puzzle cut will work, but after all that effort
I think the circular saw scarf produces a larger glue
surface and a smoother joint when complete.
That means even bends and less fairing at the end.
We're not putting together a kit boat, we're building
from scratch, that means using the the method that
produces the best results from the least effort.

[smiley=2cents.gif]


----------



## firecat1981

I'd have to argue the effectiveness of the puzzle cut. Yes you are creating more gluing surface, but you are weakening the wood itself. Think of it this way, you can grab one of the loops in the puzzle cut and mostlikely snap it off by hand, same thing with a dovetail joint. A scarf joint I think will actually have a bigger gluing surface and minimizes appearance. Both the scarf and butt joint just need a thin strip of tape to make them solid where a puzzle cut would need enough tape to reinforce the wide joint and go beyond which would make a larger joint and one thats harder to bend.
For my money I'll stick to butt joints backed up with tape, I beat the snot out of my boat and it never had an issue with a joint, even when it was plowed by 4000lbs of SUV


----------



## Andrewp

OK, back to the skiff ......

This weekend I finished gluing the second (other side) rail in place.  I then spot-welded the rest of the sides and bottom, and started filling in the screwholes.  Once everything was dry, I removed all the zip ties and all temporary frames so I can begin full fillets and taping of all the inside seams.  I put some temporary sticks to help hold the dimensions as the sides tighted up a little more than I wanted when all the framing was removed .......

Anyway, plans were to start taping but Sunday weather was wet all day.  I need to do some sanding before I start taping, and have to do the sanding outside.  So, guess that will wait until Xmas weekend ....

Here are a couple pics where you can see the installed rubrails (a second rubrail will be added both externally and internally), the temp sticks, and the spot welds .....




Closer up shot .......


----------



## Andrewp

No pics this time; promise to get them for the next post ....

I patched all the screw-holes with thickened epoxy. After that dried, I then spent some time doing my least-favorite thing when boatbuilding -- sanding. Sanded all screw-holes and all of the spot-welds smooth, as well as some of the excess sides/bottom where it overlapped a joint. Spent about 2 hours with the sander, going through quite a few pads of paper in the process. Yuk, sanding.

After sanding, wiped everything down and then re-taped the outside joints with duct tape (to keep epoxy from leaking out).

Next, started the fillets and tape. I got the front half of the (inside of the) boat filleted and then 'glass-taped with two runs of 4" tape. I hope to finish fillet/taping the back half of the boat this week. I'll take some pics of the completed inside -- yes, you will see lots of little bubbles in the tape. I tried to keep everything smooth but ..........ah, well, you will see ......

If I get this done (will need it to warm up some to get all that epoxy set up!!) then this coming weekend I can flip the boat over and start on the outsides seams -- sanding first, then fillet/taping ........


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## Brett

Pics...pics...pics! 


Could have saved some sandpaper if you only had this tool...










Hey, you do have this tool....why didn't you use it? :-?


----------



## Andrewp

heh heh heh ........ do you remember your Next build where you got a little "red paint" on the side of your boat? 

I did the same thing using my plane -- got a little too aggressive and scraped the pi$$ out of my thumb when the plane jumped off the ply side -- hurt like heck in the cold!!!!  Wrapped it up with a little paper towel and duct tape to stop the bleeding, and then decided to use sandpaper for the rest of the work ...... 

I think when I flip the boat, I'll have some more planing work to do to get some bottom/sides fair. Probably back to the Staney sure form then .....

But I have a question for you -- would you ever use any other kind of plane (block, low, etc.) to shave down the extra ply, or would you stick to the sure-plane? Do you use that plane on 1/2" ply, or use something else? 

Eventually, I have some rub-rails that I will need to shave down, and I think it might be a bit too much work to do 26' worth with the little Stanley sure plane. I guess the other option is a belt-sander -- or maybe a electric planer?


----------



## Brett

If you ain't bleeding, how can you tell that your having fun?   

When it gets down to finish work, I use most every tool in my collection.
Draw knife, block plane, electric plane, surform, wood chisels (in varying widths)
belt-disk-orbital sanders, wood block, foam block, shaped block,
rasps, files, saws both powered and hand operated
...even my router gets in on the fun, whatever it takes to get the job done
quickly, accurately and safely so as to end up with the desired result.
If you go through the Slipper build, you can see all the tools I used.
I make a tool if one isn't already in my collection...

Remember this tool? Needed it to finish the 1/2 inch radius on the chine of the Slipper...


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/GrassSlipperContinued#5261145193147807554

Or this one for sanding inside curved edges...









http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/FinishingTheGrassSlipper#5279321424488513346


----------



## Baily

Brett, I picked up on that pvc idea when you were doing your build and made one for myself, works slick as chit, thanks for the idea.

Brian


----------



## Andrewp

Yeah, nice improv on the tool useage .....  I keep reviewing your details and always find something I can use -- thanks.

I have a "scrap bucket" that holds all kinds of little pieces of wood, metal, PVC, etc .... surprising how often I'm fishing around in it looking for something that I can use to solve a particular problem .......

Anyway, I'm trying to decide between a belt sander and an electric planer. I understand how I could use the belt sander, but I haven't used an electric planer before so I don't know how much use it would get. Although I really do like the nice scarf joints you produced with yours ........


----------



## Brett

I like the belt sander for large areas and planes for narrow edges.
The electric planer comes in handy around the house for hanging/rehanging doors.
The cutting depth can be adjusted to a few thousandths.
Removes old paint on door edges quickly.
Wear a face shield with the electric planer, it slings debris everywhere.
Electric plane also works well on bulk removal in long runs along the chine
and shear when you're trying to get your half scale model right.


----------



## oysterbreath

Well, I'm back from the frozen tundras of Ohio! It's good to see that you are making great progress. I didn't realize you were this far along bro...and WITHOUT the belt sander! Ugggggg man! You better make that stop over to harbor freight!
Decent planner $30
Belt sander with known belt issues (buy extra belts) $30
By the way, this is the belt sander I was talking about:








Isn't she sexy? Ergonomic and $80! She takes those smaller rolls thought 14 x 2.5 I think. But you can get right into the corners with it.





http://www.deltaportercable.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=15062#


----------



## oysterbreath

AP as a continuation of our earlier convo:
http://www.unclejohns.com/bysk14/default.htm


----------



## Andrewp

I will probably get the planer from HF this weekend .....

OB:  yeah, seen that skiff -- would be an easy project .....

I did get some quality time in last night, forgoing watching Tuesday Night Football and instead finishing up the inside of the boat.  Finished up around midnight ..... Got two layers of tape down on the back half of the boat (had to fillet the transom areas first) so that now the entire inside has been epoxy fillet and double-taped.

I found an interesting way to apply the fillets .... I use small paper Dixie cups to mix the epoxy in (an aside --- I use the pumps to dispense the epoxy, never had any issues with them not giving correct amounts until you get to the bottom of the jugs and you don't get a full pump.  I have heard others have had issues, but I haven't ...yet!).  So anyway, after mixing the epoxy and adding (pine) flour and getting the consistancy to thick peannut butter, I then form the rim of the paper cup into a little spout and press that into the corner of the area I want to fillet.  Squeeze the cup, the epoxy comes out in a nice bead, and move the cup along the seam squeezing the cup to force the epoxy out ..... hope that makes some sense.  Then used a plastic scraper to fully form the fillet and smooth it out ......

So the good news is that inside is fillet/taped, so now I can flip the boat and start working on the outside.  First up will be some sanding ---I'll clean up the insides some first, flip the boat, and then start smoothing the outside corners to get things ready for the fillets and tape ......

And yes, I'll get some pics this weekend ......


----------



## WhiteDog70810

The pumps do fine unless you get stoopid. I happen to be good at stoopid.

Nate


----------



## firecat1981

From my experience the pumps do ok at first, but after a few weeks some of the liquid, usually the activator, can build up inside the pump which means every pump you get less and less. I went back to using small dixie cups (3oz, cheap at walmart), makes mixing even small batches very easy and it's easy to estimate 1, 1.5, or 2oz if needed.

PS. I didn't have a belt sander for my last build, but I'm thinking a new one is in my future.


----------



## Andrewp

I think I would have earned an "attaboy" from Brett last night -- used this:











to knock down the the sedge (I think that's the word -- its the hard edge on one side of fiberglass tape) on all of the tape runs on the inside of the boat.  Gotta say the sureform really did a nice job, creating nice fiberglass shavings as opposed to what a sander would have created (lots of fiberglass dust).  I didn't dust-up the inside of my garage, and it was easy to shop-vac the shavings.  

D'oh [smiley=1-doh.gif] -- maybe I'll rescue those shavings in case I have to do a patch somewhere .....


----------



## firecat1981

> D'oh -- maybe I'll rescue those shavings in case I have to do a patch somewhere .....


That's a good idea, I saved everything I sanded off and used it later on, just kept emptying the sander bag into a bucket.

I got into the habbit of cutting off the thick edge of the tape before I glassed it in. just made things a hair easier later on.


----------



## Brett

> I think I would have earned an "attaboy" from Brett last night -- used this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to knock down the the sedge (I think that's the word -- its the hard edge on one side of fiberglass tape) on all of the tape runs on the inside of the boat.  Gotta say the sureform really did a nice job, creating nice fiberglass shavings as opposed to what a sander would have created (lots of fiberglass dust).  I didn't dust-up the inside of my garage, and it was easy to shop-vac the shavings.
> 
> D'oh [smiley=1-doh.gif] -- maybe I'll rescue those shavings in case I have to do a patch somewhere .....



Tee-hee...Attaboy AP... 

btw, the word you're looking for is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selvage


----------



## Andrewp

Progress and pics ....

Last posting I reported that I had gotten two layers of fiberglass tape layed into the inside of the boat.  Here's what that looks like ......

From back ...



From front ...




This weekend I flipped the boat over and started on the outside.  First, had to spend some "quality time" with my sander to round off some edges (ugh!! I really do not like sanding).  Then applied unthickended epoxy on all joints and let it soak in and set up a bit.  While it was doing that I applied thickened epoxy to all edge areas where seams were located, and also added to any drill holes or spots than needed it.  Then started taping ...... and got 1 layer on all external seams, so I still have another one to go.  Hopefully will tackle that in bits and pieces at night during this week ....

So here are some pics of the outside with 1 layer done ....

Front .....



Frontal area and bilge panel ...



Front area and bilge panel rightside up ...



Back .....




SO ......... now I have a problem and a question.  The problem:   Looking at the bottom of the boat, I can tell there are some significant peaks and valleys.  To give you an idea, I layed a pretty straight 1x4 on its edge on the bottom.  Can you see the gap?



The pic makes it look worse than it is, but still ... the gap at the deepest is 3/8".  Remember, the bottom ply is 1/4" and is still pretty flexible at this point .....

Now, I really don't want to add that much fairing compound to even things up.  Also, I still have to install two 1x4 runners/skids on the bottom.  What I am hoping is that if I screw the runner tight to the bottom at the "dips", I'll pull the bottom up, or at least pull it up some.

Does that sound right, and any other opinions on how to proceed with flattening that bottom panel?

OK ..... so moving forward, plans are after installing the second layer of glass tape on the bottom, I have a decision to make.  

Originally, I was not planning on glassing the bottom.  I'm considering glassing the bottom now, but with xynole instead of cloth (not worried so much about strength, more worried about abrasion resistance).  Wondered if anyone cares to comment on that idea .... but either cloth or no cloth, I will then epoxy the bottom with several layers of graphite/epoxy mix.

Then install runner/skids .... I'm trying to decide if I wanted to use treated lumber for the skids, or try something more exotic like pvc-created trim board (like this:  http://www.lowes.com/pd_238343-99999-282608003_4294934154+4294815653_4294937087_?productId=3195345&Ns=p_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl_Rot%2BFree_4294934154%2B4294815653_4294937087_%3FNs%3Dp_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr%7C0%7C%7Cp_product_quantity_sold%7C1&facetInfo=Rot%20Free) Thoughts about that??

And then once bottom is completed, I can flip boat and start finished work on inside .......


----------



## Brett

Thought about this for a while, interesting problem.
Came up with a possible solution, how about this...
Using wax paper, polyurethane foam sealant and a chunk of MDF.
Wax paper wrapped and stapled to the MDF
Foam is applied to the low spot
then the board gets placed over the low spot and held down
thereby filling and flattening the hole.
After the foam cures, the board and wax paper are removed.
Light sanding or reapplication of more foam if needed.
Then a layer of glass and resin to cover the foam.
Fills the cavity without increasing weight appreciably.

                                  :-?


----------



## Andrewp

Brett: will think about that as a possibility ........

I think I have a theory of why it happened in the first place. The "valleys" are in locations where I had installed temporary forms. I had screwed the forms in on both the sides as well as the bottom of the boat. I think that I "pinched" the bottom in when I did that, and of course it stayed there when I started stitching the sides. I should have removed the bottom screws before starting the side stitching ..... oh well, live and learn, will know better for when I build the next one .....


----------



## firecat1981

Brett I learned from my livewell that he will need alot of glass over the foam to make it rigid and so it doesn't puncture easily. I had 2 layers of 6oz cloth on my livewell and could still easily flex the sides, but I have an idea 

AP this is an easy fix, I had to do it to straighten out some bulkheads. Well first let me ask is the hull bottom as flat as it looks? I mean is it designed to be flat? if so then there is a simple solution that will only take a few minutes to do.

Find a flat, hard, and more or less level surface (garage floor basically). Set the boat upright so the bottom is resting on the flat concrete floor. 

You will need a board to fit over the section that is deformed, waxpaper or plastic sheeting, some glass cloth, and lots of weight (buckets filled with water, concrete blocks....)

Epoxy the fiberglass cloth over the deformed section, while it's still very wet cover it with the wax paper/plastic, then put the board over it and load on all the weight you can find on top of it. Try to distribute the weight evenly over the area but make sure there is enough to flatten the panels against the floor. 

Wait till it cures and you will have no more, or atleast much less, distortion as the lamination will hold the panel in shape. I was able to straighten 3/8" plywood with just a single layer of 6oz cloth. It can be sanded smooth once you glass the bottom. Good luck .


----------



## Andrewp

> Brett I learned from my livewell that he will need alot of glass over the foam to make it rigid and so it doesn't puncture easily. I had 2 layers of 6oz cloth on my livewell and could still easily flex the sides, but I have an idea
> 
> AP this is an easy fix, I had to do it to straighten out some bulkheads. Well first let me ask is the hull bottom as flat as it looks? I mean is it designed to be flat? if so then there is a simple solution that will only take a few minutes to do.
> 
> Find a flat, hard, and more or less level surface (garage floor basically). Set the boat upright so the bottom is resting on the flat concrete floor.
> 
> You will need a board to fit over the section that is deformed, waxpaper or plastic sheeting, some glass cloth, and lots of weight (buckets filled with water, concrete blocks....)
> 
> Epoxy the fiberglass cloth over the deformed section, while it's still very wet cover it with the wax paper/plastic, then put the board over it and load on all the weight you can find on top of it. Try to distribute the weight evenly over the area but make sure there is enough to flatten the panels against the floor.
> 
> Wait till it cures and you will have no more, or atleast much less, distortion as the lamination will hold the panel in shape. I was able to straighten 3/8" plywood with just a single layer of 6oz cloth. It can be sanded smooth once you glass the bottom. Good luck .


FC: yes, it is a flat bottom ........

So ..... with the above, you are talking about glassing the inside of the boat, right? Funny, I was thinking about the same kind of idea but was thinking the glass would have to go on the bottom. Otherwise it was the same idea of heavy weights to push the bottom down.

I hadn't planned on glassing the inside (remember, I'm trying to keep overall weight down). I might have to re-consider.


----------



## firecat1981

I'm not talking about the whole inside, just where the flexing is on the floor, so you might be adding maybe 1/2lbs at absolute most. I would do it on the inside first, then if it didn't take all the way repeat on the outside.


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## oysterbreath

Here is an idea....don't do anything!
You're not putting a big motor on it.
At most a 3-5 HP right?
You're not gonna run the boat more than 15 mph right? Think of all the dinted jon boats out there running! Sure you will not have the most effecient craft but so what! It's not going to give you and structural problems will it?


----------



## Andrewp

Update with no pics as there wasn't any real change from last time ....

Got the second layer of tape on the bottom. Ran out of epoxy, so will get some more from Raka at next paycheck. Did have enough leftover cash to purchase 6oz fiberglass cloth for bottom of boat. Plan will be to cover bottom with cloth and while still wet put the runners in place and screw bottom (from inside) into runners to pull bottom panel up. Hopefully that will be good enough .......


----------



## Andrewp

Update again with no pics, as nothing exciting has happened, plus I lost a weekend of work due to being sick with a cold .....

When we last left you ...... I was asking about possible fixes for a wavy bottom. Got some good tips -- thanks to all. I ended up flipping the boat over (right-side up) and examined the bottom -- there were large portions of it that were not perfectly flat.

So ....... I felt I either needed to fiberglass the entire inside and weight it down to try to flatten it out, or just live with it the way it is. I even contacted the boat designer and asked him his thoughts -- he said don't worry too much, it won't affect performance. SO ...... I opted to live with it. Again, as I spelled out when I first started this boat, I'm not worrying about building something perfect. My skills nor my patience will allow it. I'll just remmeber this for the next build and be a bit more careful.

This Sunday all I managed to do is clean up the bottom and put down a first layer of epoxy on the bottom. For folks using epoxy, I was able to get coverage over the bottom of my boat with about 6 oz of epoxy. I used a plastic spreader to move the epoxy all over and to get a nice, thin amount of coverage.

Will glass the entire bottom (that should go on tonight) and then add more epoxy with graphite to finish the bottom. The I add the bottom runners, epoxy them in place, and can finally flip the boat and start finish work on the inside of the boat .....


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## WhiteDog70810

I'd attach the runners before you graphite the bottom. It is hard to get anything to stick to graphite from what I hear.

Nate


----------



## Andrewp

Nate: Hmmm ..... hadn't thought about that; guess it won't hurt anything one way or the other ......

Well, on the subject of runners -- have a question for those out there: So these runners on the bottom are sacrificial, hopefully contacting before the actual 1/4" bottom. I know they will get scraped up getting in/out of the water and loading onto my truck. So the question -- what would you use for the runners (1x4 wood) -- regular pine, treated pine, hardwood, or .... some kind of composite (PVC)? Would you cover in 'glass knowing they will get scratched up a lot?


----------



## Brett

I like wood, 'glass 'em...adds to rigidity of the sole and durability.


----------



## DuckNut

Graphite/epoxy is for making the bottom slippery for uses such as a duck boat that goes over vegitation/weeds. Aluminum powder/epoxy is for abrasion resistance against things such as rocks and oysters. The difference is very significant.


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## WhiteDog70810

They are sacrificial to some extent, but if you make them stout enough, you can repair damage in place instead of replacing them. If you just screw a sacrificial runner in place and don't glass it, you be replacing it every couple of years as the screws allow moisture to rot out the screw holes. Also you won't as much longitudinal stiffness from them as if you glassed them on. I'd use the straightest 1x2" board I could find and glass the hell out of it. I don't think type of wood is as important as the straightness. I covered mine with 12 oz tape, so the durability will come from that, not the wood itself. Ply will work, but it is a bit harder to work with than solid wood for this purpose. You could make fiberglass runners, but that seems like a lot of work for me.

Nate


----------



## Andrewp

OK, so an update ......

I did get the 6oz fiberglass cloth laid down and epoxy'd .... took a pic but forgot the camera today, so I'll upload it for next post.  

Boy, compared to how little epoxy the undercoat of bare wood needed, I used about 4X as much to get the cloth wetted out properly.  I used a plastic "scraper" to move the epoxy around .... mixed up 3 oz (2 squirts resin, 1 of hardner) at a time, poured it onto the cloth, pushed it around to wet out cloth, and then repeated ..... The nice thing about the scraper was that I think I did a good job of using the minimum amount of epoxy.

Anyway, pic of bottom with 'glass on next post .....

Remember the wavy bottom issue?  I decided to see what would happen if I screwed the runners to the bottom (from inside boat to outside).  Good news is that it did lift the bottom up somewhat -- not 100%, but better than it was.  So I guess I will butter up some epoxy onto the runners and get them laid out properly on the bottom and screw into them to hold (temporarily).  Then per suggestions I will fiberglass the runners, hopefully stiffening the bottom even more.  Then final coats of epoxy/graphite to fill weave, smooth out bottom, etc ......


----------



## TomFL

> OK, for those comptemplating a build, you can easily full-scale your design -- in styrofoam board.  Boards are $9 each (4' x 8' x 1/2") at your local BigBox, you cut with a knife (a bit messy, have a vac ready!) and then use packing tape to assemble.
> 
> So here's mine, roughly done, with 3' bottom and 4' max width, 13' long.  I did not finish the bow area as I really was doing this to see how the boat would fit into the truckbed.
> 
> Side view ...
> 
> 
> 
> Stern view ...
> 
> 
> 
> Top view ...
> 
> 
> 
> Wheel well view -- side just getting by .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So everything fits.  Brett did bring up an excellent point about transport of motor, gas, etc.  I thought about locking motor onto extend-a-bed and resting the lower unit on the tailgate area.  Note sure there is enough room.  Have to make sure everything will fit ...... otherwise motor will have to be placed inside of boat for transport (worried about damage to boat if I do that) ....



Anyone know if it's legal sticking out that much?


----------



## firecat1981

> Then final coats of epoxy/graphite to fill weave, smooth out bottom, etc ......


I wouldn't do it this way, Smooth the bottom first then coat it with graphite/epoxy. If you do the graphite/epoxy bottom first and then decide you need it smoother you are kinda screwed. The graphite/epoxy mix should be used like paint, not for smoothing or anything structural.


----------



## Andrewp

> Then final coats of epoxy/graphite to fill weave, smooth out bottom, etc ......
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't do it this way, Smooth the bottom first then coat it with graphite/epoxy. If you do the graphite/epoxy bottom first and then decide you need it smoother you are kinda screwed. The graphite/epoxy mix should be used like paint, not for smoothing or anything structural.
Click to expand...

FC:  Hmmm, ok, I was assuming it wouldn't matter so much one way or the other.  Assumed if it took a couple of thin coats of epoxy/graphite, it would both get smooth and fill in weave.

Tom:  Sure hope this isn't illegal, since I've used the same setup for 6+ years with my kayak sticking out the back (14' kayak, while boat is only 13').  I do hang a red flag off the back of kayak/boat as well ......


----------



## firecat1981

I just wrote like a full page responce and Microskiff took a crap on me again! . This is happening alot lately and I don't have the patience to rewrite everything, especially since the crash screwed up my type and I can barely read the size it is now.

Long story short:
It will take more thin coats then you think to get the protection you need because it needs to float above the weave, not inbetween it in order to protect it. Not only that but it may smooth it a bit, but it won't effect the shape. If you find later you need to correct an issue (ie the hook you have if it effects performance) you will be kind of screwed. I would shape and fair it first, then put the mixture on.

As far as legal transport goes...


> Maximum rear load overhang I've found is 6 feet.
> Requires a red or orange warning flag or red light


So as long as it sticks out less then 6 feet you are ok, if it is longer then it's time for a cheap trailer


----------



## Brett

Another reg states that the load may exceed past the rear of the bed
by an amount equal to half the length of the bed
and 2/3rds of the load must be resting in the bed.
Any load that extends 3 feet past the rear tailights
must have a red flag in daytime and a red light at night.
Technically speaking, if your outboard extends 3 feet past your rear trailer lights
It needs a flag or red light attached to it...


----------



## firecat1981

Hmmm, so if you have a 8 ft bed the max boat you can stick in it is a 12 footer? :-/

Well AP can you prop it up on the roof of the truck or something?


----------



## DuckNut

AP- you can simply paint the epoxy mix on and fill the weave to get a smooth finish. It is no different than adding coats of epoxy alone or thickening the epoxy, fairing and sanding. Anyway you do it , it will fill the weave and give you a nice finish.

But as FC states about the shape is true. If you need to make adjustments after the graphite is down you will have a mess. Sandpaper will not remove it - it will require a grinder. I don't know about you but I certainly cannot grind something smooth. I can only grind something with thousands of grinder wave marks in it. I guess that is why they invented fairing putty.


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## Andrewp

OK, progress report with a few pics ....

First, a pic to show that I got the fiberglass cloth laid out all nice and purdy on the bottom ......



I came back and cut off the excess cloth and sanded a few things smooth ...

Next, I laid out the runners.  Screwing them from the bottom up into the runner did help pull the bottom fair where it had dipped before .... not perfect, but not enough for me to worry.  So back out the test screws, lay down the runners in position, mark locations, take off, epoxy butter the underside of the runner, place back in location, and screw from bottom into runner to get a good hold.  

Looks like this ....



and from the back ...




Next, I took some epoxy and coated the top and sides of the runners.  I then thickened up some epoxy and sawdust and created a fillet on the sides of the runners.  I then took two layers of 4" tape and ran it down the length of the runners.  I did not try to wrap it down over the fillets, as the runner edge was too sharp and my fillet was not wide enough.  Got more epoxy and wet out the tape on the bottoms of the runners.   After epoxy had set up and dried, I trimmed off excess hardened glass materials on the runner (Brett, another attaboy; used the Sureform and it worked great -- what a nice little tool to have). 

Came back the next day and added additional epoxy/filler to the fillets to make them a bit more substantial. I ended the day by adding additional epoxy to the overall bottom to work on filling the weave of the 'glass cloth.

I forgot the final pic showing progress to this point as it was getting late and I had to get the boat inside for the night.  I'll get a pic posted of how things look now in a day or so .....


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## Brett

Did you round over the corners of the runners before glassing?

:-?


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## Andrewp

> Did you round over the corners of the runners before glassing?
> 
> :-?


I didn't ........ :-/ (hope I didn't just lose an attaboy) 

I think I want a sharp edge on the sides (better bite in water when turning) but that means no glass on sides of runners. I do need to round over the front of the runners (near the bow) and will have to add some tape up there once I get that done.

Anyone with pros/cons on rounding the runners vs. leaving them sharp?


----------



## Brett

The reason to round a corner is to remove the sharp edge,
which is the first location to go when abrasion takes place.
Doesn't have to be a major rounding, just enough to ease the corner for sealing.
If you were going to encase in fiberglass, a full 1/2 inch radius
would be needed in order to allow the fiberglass to wrap the corner
without creating an air pocket.

You're not encapsulating so no worries...


----------



## Andrewp

Didn't get a lot done, as was tied up all day Saturday with errands (the good weather day) and Sunday it rained all day. Too dark in the garage to get any good pics; will try for some later this week.

Earlier in the week I added a second coat of epoxy to fill in the weave of the bottom glass. I did get a chance to round the nose of the bottom runners, but have not re-glassed that area yet. I also started with my final coat(s) of epoxy/graphite to the bottom. First coat did a pretty good job; should only need a second coat and then I'm declaring the bottom "DONE" .... (well, do need to re-glass the nose of the runners too, but will do that before final epoxy/graphite coat).

Oh, I think I'm going to leave the bottom of the runners clear (just as a contrast to the dark bottom). The runners will need a little more epoxy to fill the weave on them ...

Next paycheck I will go buy the paint colors I need to paint the outside hull and inside areas. Most of the boat will be painted with certain spots (rubrails, motor mount, some internal bracing) being left "natural" wood color .... think I will finish up on epoxy then painting the sides before flipping the boat over and finishing the inside .....

Dang, this process is a lot slower than I thought it would be!! I keep wanting to be further along, but then I have to tell myself that any progress is good .......

AP


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## Andrewp

OK, pictures this time .....

As stated earlier, I had put on the first coat of epoxy/graphite mix on the bottom.  I started out today by sanding some of the imperfections out of the bottom (ie graphite globs, chip-brush hairs, and various biologicals).  I also sanded the sides of the boat to get them ready for their first coat of epoxy.  I then finished sanding the front of the runners and mixed up some epoxy/wood flour mix, lathered it on the front and placed two patches of tape.  Wetted everything out, now looks like this ...



Close-up of front of runner just after wetting out of glass ...




Proceeded to put another coat of clear epoxy on bottom of runners.  Then mixed up a second batch of epoxy/graphite, and painted the bottom again.  This time, I used a roller instead of a brush.  Rolled out real smooth; like how that worked (I had bought these disposable rollers for like $2 each from HD -- they were perfect for the job).  Used another roller to put epoxy on the sides of the boat (to seal the wood before I paint over it).

So, picture after second coat of graphite ....



Another pic of the front of the runner now after second coat ...



And a pic of the side of the boat .....




So ..... Maybe some touch-up work on the bottom (need to clean up the graphite line on the bottom) and then I'll go get my paint this week (planning on using an acrylic porch paint).  Will paint outside of boat up to rub-rail (planning on leaving rub-rail natural).  Then I can flip boat and start finish work inside .........

Will post a pic later of proposed paint scheme .....


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## Andrewp

Decided to flip the boat over to get started on inside .... easily flipped her over (boat is still pretty light) and placed back on strongback. Went ahead and sanded insided one more time, then coated all of inside with a round of epoxy. Will begin measurements/design of the diamond gussets (to strengthen and stiffen the boat) and then decide on the location for one or two bulkheads. Might start on outside paint too ......

Nothing real exciting, so no pics this time .....


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## Andrewp

Possible paint scheme ......



I'm re-using some paint I already have (the red and white) which happen to be nice, glossy marine paint.  The gray, however, is going to be a Valspar acrylic porch paint.  The brown you see is going to be a natural wood finish.  The black is of course the epoxy/graphite bottom color ....

I think I'll end up using the same gray on the inside of the boat, but with some speckling mix thrown into the paint along with some non-skid additive.  I'll leave a couple of places on the inside natural-wood as well.

Hope to  get to some of the outside painting this weekend ....


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## Andrewp

Didn't get much time in this weekend due to other duties (SWMBO had me build her a wooden planter for the yard ....)

I cut down the transom to the proper height for a 15" motor, and I'm glueing two 1x6 pieces of oak together to beef up the transome area where the motor will mount. I'll get that glued to the transom but probably also supported with some screws ..... filled in some screw holes on the bottom of the boat where I had attached the runners .... that was about all the time I had.

Hope to get more done this next weekend.


----------



## Gramps

Come on AP, you're killing me! We need pictures.


----------



## Andrewp

Pics next time, Gramps, I promise ...... ;D


----------



## Andrewp

The pics I promised Gramps .......  



That was a photo of the back end of the boat with the newly-installed motor-mount/brace.  I used two pieces of 1x6 oak epoxy'd together and then glued and screwed to the transom.  You can see where I cut down the transom earlier in order to get a proper fit for a 15" shaft motor ....

Here's another close-up shot of the transom and the motor-mount .....




So, in other work I shaved down the rub-rails to match the height of the plywood sides.  I used a newly-purchased planer from Harbour Freight -- wow, it did a great job in taking down the wood to the proper height (created a tremedous amount of wood shavings!!).  I put in place two temporary braces to get the width-at-gunnel correct (or at least to my liking).   Here's what it looks like head-on ....




Since this photo, I've placed a 1x6 piece of oak over the temporary brace in the from of the boat and glued/screwed it to the rub-rails.  I've also cleaned up the nose of the boat, installed a small oak nose-piece and filled the surrounding area with thickened epoxy.  Also been busy sanding (yuk!!) getting outside ready for primer.  Inside the boat, I need to clean up a few places and add the final bracing -- some diamond braces along the floor/sides, and some bracing at the transom/side area as well .......


----------



## Andrewp

Again got very liitle time to spend on boat due to other factors ....

I got two coats of primer on the outside of the hull.  Looks like this ....

Front:



Back:




If you look at the bow picture closely, you can see the fiberglass tape lines still apparent.  I also have some places where the sides were joined that could use some filling in .....





What I'm trying to decide now is if it is worth adding some kind of fairing compound to smooth things out.  

The arguements for doing this is making a nicer looking boat.  The arguements against doing this are that it will take more time.  I'm already behind my self-set schedule, and if you recall I specifically noted when I started this build I was only aiming for workboat-finish.

Still, if I could fill in a few areas quickly, I might be inclined .......... will make a decision here in a couple of days ....


----------



## Andrewp

Hey, a question to anyone out there who may have worked on fairing a boat .....

I thought about getting some cheap, quick-dry epoxy and mix in my fairing compound (microballoons) with it. The idea is that the epoxy will dry much faster so that I can start the sanding process sooner.

This opposed to getting QuickFair (expensive!) ....

Would that work? Thoughts?


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## Brett

Microballoons and epoxy worked for me...
but quick set epoxy won't give you time to mix and then spread.


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## firecat1981

Bad idea, I just faired my boat and it takes a while to get the epoxy thickened enough. It will start gelling before you can finish appying it and then it will be useless. the 2:1 epoxy I use takes about 6 hours to dry, apply in the morning and you can sand in the afternoon.
Also you will need to sand off the primer to get a good bond, yes you can put it over the primer technically, but when you are sanding the primer will be softer then the fairing compound and will be hard to get it leveled out. It will end up being wavy.


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## DuckNut

Fast setting is a very bad idea. Get the 2:1. You can speed up the process by mixing and applying in the garage, make several batches and do the area you need to do. Then move it outside and in direct sunlight. You will be ableto sand pretty quick and you won't waste time, money, energy and aggrevation dealing with the fase setting that will set in your hand.


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## oysterbreath

AP, don't forget the mandatory galv eye bolt! How else are you gonna be able to tow me back to the tarpon honey hole? lol

It's looking really good so far! Stop wine'n -N- dine'n the wife and get-R-done! ;-)


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## Andrewp

Oyster, you'll get no free rides from me!! (Hmmmm .....then again, he could help me pull the boat on/off the truck and help tote the motor and gear over ......). Wait!! I take it back!!!! ;D

Guys, thanks for your wisdom on the (bad) patching idea. I gritted my teeth and mixed up a dose of epoxy heavied up with microballoons. I started applying it, and damn if it started firming up on me after about 10 minutes of being mixed. This was with Medium hardner .... so I know you guys are right about the other, quicker stuff. So thanks for talking me out of that ....

As it is, I got one side of the boat spackled up, and got a few other places filled in before the stuff went off and I ran out of time. Still will need to get some places spackled on the other side of boat. Again, I'm not fairing the whole boat, but getting the worst areas smoothed out some. You'll still see some fiberglass tape lines, but they won't look too bad .....

This weekend I plan on cutting out the diamond gussetts (side bracing) -- turns out getting this done will be a lot easier than I originally thought -- no special measuring, nothing but isosceles (right) triangles. Will do initial install/gluing to be followed by glass taping. Will also cut out and install the transom-to-side gussets. If I have time and everyything is dry, will sand outside fairing compound and see about another coat of primer ....

And so it goes ....


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## Andrewp

OK, pics of progress from the weekend ....

First, I cut out the transom-to-side braces.  Test fit, glued and clamped into place.  There's a screw that was counter-sunk into the transom brace (a 2x4); will cover up the screw-head with epoxy later ..... here's a pic:



Now, you may have heard be talking about diamond gussets for inside bracing.  I'm experimenting here; will find out if they provide enough bracing to keep the sides from flexing so much.  Anyway, here is what a diamond gusset brace looks like ....



Turned out creating them to fit was really easy -- they are just right triangles.  As to how large to make them ..... I used the T.L.A.R. guide (*T*hat *L*ooks *A*bout *R*ight).

Here is a pic from the side so you get an idea of the placement of the gussets ....



From the stern ....



From overhead from the bow ....




In the last two shots you can also see the final piece of oak bracing (clamped in place, now glued) for the motor mount.

Also, I drilled small holes in the diamond gussets and ran cable-ties -- this to get the gussets to hold the proper position when I get to gluing them in place (next week).

I ran out of time; I did sand down the faired areas on the side. Will still need to fair other side and probably do more fairing /sanding until I can't stand it anymore ....

Got a nice sunburn of the back of my neck from craning over the boat; have to remember to wear my big floppy straw hat in the future ......  


AP


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## firecat1981

> There's a screw that was counter-sunk into the transom brace (a 2x4); will cover up the screw-head with epoxy later


I've been told that's a no-no by several boat builders on my first project. Basically the screws can work there way lose with vibrations and then crack the surface of the glass. Screws are good for holding things, but remove them, drill the hole smooth and filling it would be a better way to go. Once it is bonded you won't need it anyway.


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## Andrewp

This weekend I removed the tape and ties that held the gussets temporarily in place, and thicken-epoxyed the gussets permanently to bottom and sides.  I was a bit nervous when I removed the last temp brace across the gunnels to see if the sides moved back in, but happily the gussets seem to have done a very good job of stiffening up the boat such that the sides did not move back in and the temp brace simply fell out of position.

I do have some touch up work to fully finish the gussets, but here's what the  boat looks like now:






I then epoxyed the whole inside again, and spent time removing screws and filling them with thickened epoxy.  Oh, and I placed a small piece of glass tape underneath the front brace and the back braces to further strengthen them.

All that's left on the inside is to finish gluing gussets and place a nose cap at the front of the boat.  Then I can start the paint scheme on the inside of the boat.  Think it will be the same color (gray) as the outside but with the gussets and ply braces left natural color.  After all the painting is done I will add the final rubrail piece on both sides.

Some observations ....

1)  The original wood (5.0mm Luan from Lowes) was crappy wood.  I can see places that have lumps where I suspect some delamination may be taking place.  I may open up those areas and then if delaminating, see if I can glue back down.  I also do not like the thin veneer on the surface -- it flakes way too easily.  Will go with a different wood instead of this Luan next time.

2)  I'm using red oak as my front and back braces and transom support.  I never experienced "outgassing" from wood until I used this stuff.  Wow, all the bubbles!!  I know I should be epoxying later in the day when things cool down to prevent the bubbles from forming, but you have to do what you can when you can, so this was the result.  I try to pop all the bubbles before the epoxy gets firm enough to prevent new ones from forming, but sheesh!!  Very previlent on the ends of the wood, but even some on the sides.  It it this wood in particular?  I don't ever recall having this issue with pine ....

3)  I keep thinking I'm spending too much time with epoxying and sanding things.  I wanted this boat to be simple, yet if feels like I've put a lot of time into it.  I can see how much extra time it would take to do boats like Brett, FireCat and others have created.  Wow, wow, wow.  You have to love doing this but I admit to a character flaw where I want to say "Enough!! -- lets go fishing in this damn thing!!"

Pretty soon, tho ...... pretty soon ........


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## Andrewp

No real news to report (and no pics) ....

Finished up epoxying the gussets, so now they are sealed (well, maybe a bit of touch-up still needed). I lathered on some more fairing compound to fill in the sides .... oh, went to Lowes and picked up the red oak for the nose-cap and the final set of rubrails. Those will be the last pieces to go on the boat (after final painting). 

Will sand fairing compound down next weeked and start the final paint job. Boy, I have to say I do like the inside finished natural, but I still think I will paint most everything and just leave some spots natural (the gussets and the braces). It will look fine either way ....

I have one last surprise for the boat, but I don't know if I will be able to pull it off (takes artistic ability and some tools I've never used before). But it will look/be pretty cool if I can ...... 


AP


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## Andrewp

Sanded down the fairing compound, and decided "Enough".  I know the boat could use a lot more fairing to get it looking professional, but I think it's "work boat finish" good enough.

So started painting with the latex portch paint.  Color came out with a little more blue tint than I thought it would, but it will look fine.

Sorry for the low-quality (light) pics; I took these after I had already put the boat back in the garage ...


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## Andrewp

Not much new to report as I didn't get a whole lot of time to spend on the boat.

I touched up the sides with a little more fairing compound, smoothed that out and painted. Re-did the black/gray line so it looks a little smoother. I did paint the white stripe just under the gunnel -- looks pretty good but need to do some touch-up work. I need to clean up the bow area, but then should be done with paint on the outside.

Inside, I'm still deciding what to do. Right now leaning towards painting the bottom only the same gray-blue as the outside, and leaving all sides "bright".

In other big news, I picked up a motor -- a 1960's 6hp Evinrude. It cranks on the second pull, runs (pees) fine. Light weight for carrying -- I'd say 35lbs or so. Got it pretty cheap ($260).

Bought a new 3-gallon tank and hose and fitting; also bought bow eye and cleats to be installed at the very end of the build.

REALLY getting close now ........


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## firecat1981

good deal man that thing should fly with a 6hp motor. What are you doing for a seat? Installing a bench (good place to hide the gas tank)? 

Also make sure the fuel hose is A1 fuel line, if it is the attwood/walmart kind it will last a while but the inside will degrade and could effect the motor. If it is the cheaper kind you can reuse all the fitting and just replace the line in a few month, think A1 is about $3 a foot now.


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## Andrewp

FC: not 100% sure about seat. Won't be a bench, tho. Probably more like a small square cooler with a pad on top.

What I need to do is get the boat on the water with me in it so I can find the proper balance point. Since I designed this as a 1-man boat, the balance point won't move around too much, so once found I can determine how I want to secure my seating arrangement.

Oh, Brett -- absolutely stealing your idea for a tiller extender.  How do you decide on the proper length for the extension -- I mean, where should it ideally rest in relation to your body?


----------



## Brett

Fabricating a tiller extension from lightweight tubing is an old trick.
It was too many years ago to remember who taught me.

All I did was document what I had learned... 

Length of extension is determined by finding the best spot to stand
to balance out the hull when on plane. Cut length so the end is aft of you.
Otherwise you'll be blocked by your body when trying to turn.


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## firecat1981

Nothing wrong with a cooler as a seat. My plans have a cooler mounted to my front deck as a seat/casting platform. This is the tie down system I'll be using. As I learned if you don't bolt the cooler down it will scratch the heck out of your deck.
http://www.kennedytiedown.com/gallery1.htm#coolerkit

You could use it and bolt it through the sides of your hull above the waterline.


----------



## Andrewp

Well, at least I got some pics this time but first, my big mistake ........

When I built my transom, I wanted to make sure I protected the 1/4" ply from getting easily crushed.  The plans called for a 2x6 brace across the outside of the transom.  This I applied per plans, using two 1X6 oak boards glued together.  But I was concerned about the inside, so I glued another 1x6 piece on the inside.  I did this all before purchasing my boat motor (got it last week) ...............

So when I go to place the motor on the transom, it won't fit.  I've made the transom too beefy -- about 1/4" too big.

Rats!!!!     [smiley=angry4.gif]

Solution which cost me most of the weekend's boatwork was to set my circular saw for a 1/4" cut, and cut lines in the oak on both the inside and outside.  Then using a screwdriver and hammer (I didn't have a chisel) I slowly chiseled out a 1/4" gap so that the motor will fit.  I still need to clean up and seal the oak, but I test fit with the motor and now everything fits.

I also cut out a bow-cap piece, but haven't glued it yet -- that should be next.

I have to decide on what to do about my rubrail.  I have something new that I'm seriously thinking of trying -- a plastic (pvc?) angle piece.  Take a look in the pics and see what you think.  How would you glue this plasic to the inside wooden rubrail -- any ideas?

Also, I finally got inside the boat, and like FireCat warned me, the bottom oil-cans much more than I'd like.  I'm thinking about adding another layer of 1/4" ply 2' wide (that way it spans the 1X braces underneath) inside starting from the transom and extending about 6' up in the cockpit.  Anybody think this is a good/bad idea?

Enough for now ... here are the pics ....

First from the right side, so you can see the white stripe I painted.  Thinking about adding a thin red bootstripe near the bottom .... also put the motor and a (too long) tiller extension on, and placed a cooler roughly where I would sit ...



Now a pic from the side, showing that cap rail made of plasic being held in place with some clamps ...



Finally from the bow -- you get a better look at what the plastic looks like ....




I keep thinking I'm almost finished and I keep running into more to do ....

AP


----------



## firecat1981

Define oil-canning?

The PVC for the rails looks pretty good. where did you pich them up?
How thick is the rub rail under it? if it's 1/2" or so I'd use 1/2" SS screws spaced about 10" apart and some white silicone to attatch it. You can use 5200, but it might cause some damage later on it they need to be removed. Bring the front of the plastic out further and cut it at an angle to match the other side for a nice finished look. If the rub rail under it is thinner then 1/2" then it might be better to put it on with aluminum rivets instead of screws.

PS don't feel bad about the transom, my first built the transom was to thin (1") for my motor. I didn't find out till the night I finished it, which was about 10 hours before we left for captiva. I made a midnight run to wally world and used a 1/4" cutting board to space it, and protect the transom, worked awsome.


----------



## Andrewp

"oil-canning" -- the flex you get when you've used too thin a bottom and you go put weight on it and it flexs more than a little  .....  

it's not terrible, just a little disconcerting.  So I think I'll add the 1/4".  It will span over the 1" bottom runners give me 1/2" right on the center, which is where the cooler/seat will be .....

The plastic cap-rail I got at HD.  Don't think it was very expensive.  Yeah, 1/2" wood rubrails underneath.  I think I'm going to go with it and pick up some glue and small screws like you mentioned .....


----------



## firecat1981

Building up the floor more will help, it would really help if it could be tied into the sides. That's the disadvantage of building light weight, you have to plan ahead alot of times and fine ways to make things stiffer.


----------



## Andrewp

I hear ya. I hoped for super light weight, but I think I need to do this for piece of mind.

If things get too heavy, I'll just have to go buy a trailer and give up on the idea of carrying the boat only in the truck cab ....


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## Brett

Build it the best you can,
otherwise you'll be seeing stress fractures like these...

:-[


----------



## pgmelton

With respect to the oil-can syndrome, I have two solutions. If it is flexing through the deck (a lot) I go with a 1/4 ply with 2 layers of 1708 clothe. If it it minimal I go with straight 1708 and that will do it. I have to admit one of my major faults is overdoing it.


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## Brett

> Define oil-canning?


Good question, I know what it looks like, I know what causes it,
but never stopped to think about why it happens.
Simply put: it's the flexing that takes place across the center of a flat panel.
Usually caused by force being applied to the center of the panel and then being released.
The change in pressure causes the center portion of the panel
to flex back and forth depending on the direction of the loading.
The why works out to be basic trigonometry. Had to think about it a while.
Remember Pythagoras and his theorem "A squared  plus B squared equals C squared?"
The non-braced center of the panel can move a small distance
back and forth at right angles to the plane of the panel
and it doesn't affect the overall distance across, from one side of the panel to the other,
until you get out to the 3rd or 4th decimal place.
As an example: I've got flex in the deck of the Slipper.
The non-braced distance across the hull panel is 32 inches.










Distance "A" from edge to center is 16 inches
and distance "B", the flex, is 1/4 inch

lemme grab my calculator here...

16 x 16 = 256 (A squared)

0.25 x 0.25 = 0.0625 (B squared)

256 + 0.0625 = 256.0625 (C squared)

take the square root of 256.0625 and the change in length
from the edge of the panel to the center is 16.00195 inches, more or less, when flexed 1/4 inch.
So a quarter inch of flex up or down doesn't produce enough change in length, about 2 thousandths of an inch,
to provide enough tension across the panel to control the flex.
So while on the water the hull is constantly flexing up and down
and over time will weaken the structural joints along the perimeter of the panel.
1/4 inch up, 1/4 inch down, 1/2 inch of travel total.

Which shows up as stress fractures along the perimeter like these...



















The damage caused by oil canning is cumulative
and over time will result in the degradation of hull integrity.
Not really a major problem on a low horsepower, flat water skiff
but running in any kind of chop at speed, will destroy the hull.
The harder the impact, the greater the force, the greater the flex.
Too much flex will split the hull at a seam, simple as that.


----------



## Andrewp

Thanks for that, Brett; most informative and the pics help show the end results ....

Related to this, I had an interesting side-conversation with FireCat over how I had modified the plans to fit my needs.  My design eliminated box-bench seating that ran across the boat.  I looked at the box seating as providing side stabilization (elimination of the side of the boat flexing); what I did not take into consideration was I would also be eliminating bottom flex.  The diamond gussets work well to elimate the side flex, but I lost bottom stiffening without the accross-the-bottom bracing.  Thus, we have the situation of me having to add the additional (unwanted) weight of an additonal layer of 1/4" ply .....

Somewhat unrelated but of note, I would like to point out that the diamond gussets do offer small pockets of sealed air flotation .... probably not all that much, but better than none in this open boat ....

Well, onto this weekend where I glued on piece of of the plastic railing in place -- had to use all my clamps to make sure I got a good glue-hold.  I also installed the 2x4', 1/4" additional plywood to the bottom of the boat.  Got a coat of epoxy over it; will need to glass tape down the sides of the ply which may also help eliminate some flex.

Some small paint clean-ups, and that was about it ....pics next time when I should be pretty much done.


----------



## Andrewp

I should have some pictures of the boat pretty much done this weekend (excpet for title and registration work)...

But I was curious if anyone had any idea what might be the best way to move my boat when not using the motor. I plan on fishing alone, and will not be using an electric motor, so it's either a push pole or a kayak-paddle for propulsion purposes. 

Given the size of my boat, any thoughts as to which option would be either more efficient or easier to deal with when fishing?


----------



## Brett

I use both, pole for working through heavy vegetation
long yak paddle for sneaking around in open water.
Keeping a low profile by paddling seated in the bow
has let me get goofy close to laid up fish.
Literally reach out with the paddle tip and touch 'em.
Fun to watch a sleeping red blast out of a grass patch.


----------



## Andrewp

So .............. I couldn't wait any longer and decided for a test-launch at a local lake.

The loading operation at the house went smoothly.  Here's what if looks like loaded onto the back of the truck ....

From back:



From side:




Once strapped down, drove to a local lake that has a ramp.  Unloaded all gear from truck, then pulled boat off of the "trailer" and into the water.  That wasn't so bad -- back truck right to waters edge, and as boat tilts off trailer it hits the water, floats, and makes it easy to hold onto stern and take it off trailer.

Now, load in all gear, and drop motor on transom.  Step back, take a look, and snap a pic to see what draft looks like without me in the boat ....



Around 3", but add in skid and it's more like 4" .......

So get in the boat (a bit tippy getting in!), connect the fuel line, couple of pulls and we're running.  Cast off, and off we go.  Sorry I don't have any pics of her under way, as I was by myself.  Opened her up, and I was a little disappointed in top speed, which I would guess was 10 knots.  I was hoping for more.

Then motor conked out.  Found that for some reason, the hose does not make a fast, complete connection to the tank fitting and air gets into the hose.  I manually push the connection secure enough to pump the bulb tight, restart the motor, and come back to shore.  Gonna have to look at what is the problem -- is the tank fitting not the right model -- I know the hose is, and it fits the motor connections side perfectly.

Anyway, as I was riding in the baot, noticed that my container-seat slides around too much.  I need to install "cleats" to help keep it in position, now that I know where the proper trim locaton is .....

Anyway, back at the dock I take one more photo .....



(that's weird -- the white stripe should go right up to the top of the side of the boat.  Some kind of optical illusion makes it look like it doesn't)

I unload everything out of the boat, and get ready to load boat back on the trailer.  This is wher I discover it is much harder to load it back on than it was to launch.  I end up dropping the trailer's "T" bar to it's lowest position, and I'm then able to place the transom on the bar, walk around to the bow and then push everything back onto the truck.  Then, lifting bow I can get the "T" bar back to it's proper position supporting the bow.

Anyway, after doing this I have an older gent come over to admire the boat.  He was surprised it was a home-build, and paid me several nice compliments.   

So, I learned a lot from this dunking.  Just a bit more work to do, and this week for-sure will get registration done (paperwork is completed, I just have to get by the License office).

Hopefully next time she'll be properly licenced and registered and I can get some pics of her in motion .....


AP


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## firecat1981

Congrats man, she floats!


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## Andrewp

> Congrats man, she floats!


She does indeed, and I'm not forced to change my name to Shipwreck or The Submariner .... ;D


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## firecat1981

What do you think the draft was with you in it loaded down? Get a buddy to take some running pictures of you.


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## makin moves

its looks great in the water congrats on a job well done


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## Brett

No need for speed, AP. Pick your ramp close to where you want to fish.
Spend more time fishing, less time running. You'll catch more fish and burn less gas.
More speed does not equate to more fish. I'll be watching for your fishing reports.

Boat looks good.


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## oysterbreath

Bout time my fluff chucking friend! ;-)
I'm glad to see her on the water! Just be sure that your "trailerless" boat launches don't go down like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI9y3GlcTEw

I'll have inspect the boat sometime soon and make sure that the proper "scupper pro" towing cleat was installed on the transom! 

I like the color scheme too!


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## Andrewp

My boat is now fully registered and titled ..... $31.75 -- $23.50 for registration and $8.50 for mailed-to-me paper title.

I'm going to try to post some additional information on the sticky post provided by Brett at the top of this Forum:  http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1262902247 

But, I can say as long as your boat is less than 16' in length, the process is easy.  Fill out the paperwork on the two necessary forms (easy, nothing tricky), bring in a copy of all (most   ) of your receipts used to build your boat, and you get to pick out your own vessel ID # (can be anything).  No inspection required.

I'm (quasi) legal now .......   


AP


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## Brett

Quasi-legal? Does that mean you haven't made your hull ID tags yet?  :-?


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## firecat1981

Good thing about how little they care about sub 16ft boats is if you ever cut it up and build a new one you can just slide over the FL#'s. Yes I know it's not technically what they want you to do, but in my case since I'm using parts from my old boat I am considering this a rebuild


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## DuckNut

AP - that is a great info post in the above sticky on titles.

I have two comments on your post: First is I am not an FWC gut but I can tell you for certain the difference between 15 1/2 and 16 1/2. Second, is your hull number 37332337 as well?

Really nice build- something you should be very proud of. Congrats.


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## Andrewp

> Quasi-legal? Does that mean you haven't made your hull ID tags yet?  :-?


Brett: Now that's cool!!!  Yours? If so, dang, you have EVERY tool imagineable! ;D

Yeah, have to make them. Going to use a woodburning tool on a scrap piece of ply ...... I got to chose my hull ID; assuming all homebuilders get to choose theirs .....


DuckNut: Well I suspect you might be in the minority in terms of telling the difference. Really what I was getting at was the legal requirements. I understand to operate a boat over 16' there are some additional requirements that a FWC or marine Patrol officer might ask for you to produce. Other than that, I can't see anyone measuring your boat and then asking you to prove it was titled as 16' or above .....

FC: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.


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## Brett

Stamp sets are cheap, picked mine up on sale at Harbor Freight.
Useful for so many things, like permanently marking trailer frames,
so when the manufacturers sticker weathers off,
those trailer ID numbers will still be there.

                               


My Hull ID number was generated by the automated system at the tag agency.
The first three letters (FLZ) indicate a homebuilt hull.


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## firecat1981

Brett where did you put them? I was thinking about making one but putting it out of sight so the bad guys won't be abole to pull it off.


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## Brett

Florida regs require the HIN number be placed in 2 spots.
1 is on the transom, starboard side, just below the top of the transom.
The other is in a hidden, but viewable location, at the discretion of the builder.

http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/hin.html


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