# Leaders



## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

I don't see a problem with it as long as you can cast it well. There are a lot of people out there who fish with a straight piece of fluoro/mono.

I have been using the same leaders for a while now. Tapered Orvis Fluorocarbon 9ft 20lb. I just keep adding 20lb fluorocarbon tippet material every so often.


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## Rediculous (May 5, 2012)

If you're throwing heavy or weighted flies, using a straight leader is fine. If you're throwing small, unweighted light flies tapered is the way to go. If there isn't enough weight in the fly, it can be difficult to turn it over without a tapered leader. I use 30 to 20 and tie a 2' to 3' piece of 15lb tippet.


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## landlord2401 (Feb 19, 2013)

> If you're throwing heavy or weighted flies, using a straight leader is fine. If you're throwing small, unweighted light flies tapered is the way to go. If there isn't enough weight in the fly, it can be difficult to turn it over without a tapered leader. I use 30 to 20 and tie a 2' to 3' piece of 15lb tippet.


I am not sure I can agree with this .I agree until you say "if there isnt enough weight in the fly it can be difficult to turn it over without a tapered leader"  .                                                   It is the energy that travels all the way to a large fly through a straight leader that turns it over. If a straight leader will turnover a heavy fly it will definitely turnover a weightless fly. It transfers so much energy to a weightless fly it will cause the fly to kick at the end. It is the taper that allows the energy to be spent by the time the weightless fly turns over. It is all about f=MxA  . It can be difficult to turn over a heavy fly with a poorly designed tapered leader but a  heavy straight leader will turn over a weightless fly. Am I thinking right?


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## Capt. Eli Whidden (Jun 7, 2012)

Well, that's a complicated question. You will receive many opinions based on many different circumstances. And that's enough to right a 200 page book. 

Just remember... 

Fluorocarbon is dense, abrasion resistant and more translucent underwater. For most folks that's exactly what you want. However, There are times where a mono will put flourocarbon to shame. 

Mono doesn't sink as much and is more flexible. This comes in handy when fishing very shallow water. It helps keep your fly from dredging the bottom and fouling. 

Best to have to both leader materials on hand. Knotless tapered leaders preferred. Sometimes 6 ft works fine while other days 12-15ft leaders will solve the puzzle. 

All depends on what your doing, how your doing it, where your doing it and why your doing it.


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## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

Thanks for posting about leaders. What does everyone think about the following article:

http://midcurrent.com/techniques/saltwater-tippet-in-your-favor/


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## Rediculous (May 5, 2012)

> > If you're throwing heavy or weighted flies, using a straight leader is fine. If you're throwing small, unweighted light flies tapered is the way to go. If there isn't enough weight in the fly, it can be difficult to turn it over without a tapered leader. I use 30 to 20 and tie a 2' to 3' piece of 15lb tippet.
> 
> 
> I am not sure I can agree with this .I agree until you say "if there isnt enough weight in the fly it can be difficult to turn it over without a tapered leader"  .                                                   It is the energy that travels all the way to a large fly through a straight leader that turns it over. If a straight leader will turnover a heavy fly it will definitely turnover a weightless fly. It transfers so much energy to a weightless fly it will cause the fly to kick at the end. It is the taper that allows the energy to be spent by the time the weightless fly turns over. It is all about f=MxA  . It can be difficult to turn over a heavy fly with a poorly designed tapered leader but a  heavy straight leader will turn over a weightless fly. Am I thinking right?


That's fine. I based my post off of my experiences and what works for me. It's possible my casting is so bad, that it defies physics.


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## FredGrunwald (Sep 24, 2012)

> > > If you're throwing heavy or weighted flies, using a straight leader is fine. If you're throwing small, unweighted light flies tapered is the way to go. If there isn't enough weight in the fly, it can be difficult to turn it over without a tapered leader. I use 30 to 20 and tie a 2' to 3' piece of 15lb tippet.
> >
> >
> > I am not sure I can agree with this .I agree until you say "if there isnt enough weight in the fly it can be difficult to turn it over without a tapered leader"  .                                                   It is the energy that travels all the way to a large fly through a straight leader that turns it over. If a straight leader will turnover a heavy fly it will definitely turnover a weightless fly. It transfers so much energy to a weightless fly it will cause the fly to kick at the end. It is the taper that allows the energy to be spent by the time the weightless fly turns over. It is all about f=MxA  . It can be difficult to turn over a heavy fly with a poorly designed tapered leader but a  heavy straight leader will turn over a weightless fly. Am I thinking right?
> ...


There has been times in my fishing that I think I've defied physics as well


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

I'm hoping to see other input here before I reply, if no one will.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

*Re: LeadersGFA*

Ok, to answer your original question, the answer is....  You can do whatever you want to.

However....

It's just not a proper leader system.  The weight of a fly has nothing to do with it's ability to turn over a leader or not.  Remember, you are casting the fly line, not the fly.  Everything past the flyline either follows suit to what the flyline is doing, or behaves differently based on how the leader tapers from fly line to fly.

Sure, with enough force you can get anything out there in front of you.  But how that fly behaves in the air and landing on the water will determine on how it's connected to the flyline.

With the straight leader you are describing, you will have a hard time properly turning over flies since the butt section is too light and the tippet is too big and not tapered.  The butt will hinge and the tippet will smack your fly on the water and not gently roll it over properly in the same manner that your fly line is rolling over.  That hinging action will also cause you to hit the water, grass or bushes behind you and not allow your flyline to properly transfer all it's energy straight out for maximum speed, power and therefore distance.

A normal fly leader is a tapered leader, whereas the beginning side matches up to the diameter of the tip of your fly line or slightly steps down in diameter from it (hence starting your taper).  Then it tapers in diameter down to the tippet where you want stealth between your fly line and the fly.  The end of the leader is called the Tippet, which is the stealthy side of your leader system, connecting the butt section of your leader to your fly.  10lb to 16lb is typical for saltwater tippet and can go up to 20lb tippet, depending on what is needed.  Then you would tie on about 12-18" of shock leader (also called bite tippet).  That keeps toothy fish from biting your fly off your tippet.  20-30lbs is a great size for inshore fish.  Bigger fish might need higher than that.  But that 25lb fluorocarbon you have is ideal for non-floating flies for general all around inshore where snook are either small or not there at all (i.e. reds, sea trout, flounder, ladyfish, jacks, etc...) for an 8wt.  You can even add a small piece (say 3-6") of light wire for mackeral, bluefish, cudas and sharks.

How heavy of bite tippet you need (lb test) has nothing to do with how many lb test it is (tho that's how it comes).  It has everything to do with how sharp the teeth, gill plates, barnacles, oysters and other sharp things around it's mouth *verses* the amount of pressure you apply on the rod.  So it's the ability for the fish or object to cut through the line.  Diameter is one way to slow down those sharp things, density and it's ability to resist abrasions without snapping off.  Anyways, the preferred bite tippet these days is fluoro, unless you are throwing floating flies.

In the butt section of the leader system, the line test (how many lb test the material is) has nothing to do with it.  It's what the diameter of the material you are using and it's behaviour properties (stiffness vs suppleness).

Though not the most stealthiest, clear "hard mason" line is ideal as far as it's ability to turn over heavier flies since it's stiffer than fluorocarbon and monofilament.  It is however, somewhat hard to get (pun intended) and pricey (possibly more than fluoro these days).  

Fluorocarbon is stiffer, denser, sinks faster, more abrasion resistant, sometimes a smaller diameter and of course cost more than mono.  Mono is lighter, not as stealthy, has bigger diameters, not quite as abrasion resistant, easier to come by and of course cost less than the other 2.

You can buy saltwater or bass tapered leaders and then tie on a shock/bite tippet.

A standard hand tied leader system for a normal 8wt. floating flyline would be 3ft of 40lb, 2ft of 30lb, 1ft of 20lb.  That makes up the butt section.  For the tippet section, you would tie on a 18 to 24" piece of 10 to 16lb for the tippet and a 12 to 18" piece of 25 to 30lb bite tippet, if you are normal saltwater fly fishing.  The tippet can be directly tied to the small diameter of your butt section.  That connection can be made either by a knot or a loop to loop for easy change outs.  You can use blood knots, uni to uni knots or albright knots to tie each section together.  You can use a loop to loop system to attach your butt section of the leader to your flyline and likewise for your tippet section to your butt section.  Perfection loops, Lefty Krey loops, Mirrowlure loops, DOA loops or even dbl surgeons loops can be used.

To connect the larger diameter line of the butt section to the flyline, you can either use a nail knot, or.... tie a 40lb piece of mono with a nail knot to the flyline and a perfection loop 3 to 6" from the flyline.  That connection will be permanent and then you can connect the butt section using that loop and another loop tied on the end of the butt section of the leader.

If you are fishing shallow or using floating flies, then use hard mason line or mono since it floats better.  You can use fluorocarbon on the tippet section for shallow fishing (flats) with sub-surface flies, and where stealth is needed.  I use Fluorocarbon to tie the butt and tippet section for intermediate tipped flylines and intermediate lines as well as sinking lines, since fluorocarbon tends to slowly sink.

If all of that is too complicated, then a basic system is 4ft 40lb mono or fluoro, 2ft of your 25lb fluoro, 18"-2ft of 12-15lb fluoro and 12-18" of 25-30lb fluorocarbon.

That way you will turn the fly over better, helping your leader to cast better and roll out better with a gentler presentation.  Plus the old timers and advanced guys will see you know what you are doing.


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## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

Backwater - thank you for taking the time to explain leader fundamentals! [ch128077]


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## redjim (Oct 16, 2012)

> Thanks for posting about leaders. What does everyone think about the following article:
> 
> http://midcurrent.com/techniques/saltwater-tippet-in-your-favor/


Mega, this is just another wonderful piece by the master himself. It is amazing how many fish I catch after using some of Chico's methods. i try to read everything he has ever written! His knowledge of fly fishing is hard to believe. Midcurrent seems to have an awful lot of his work.

Thanks for posting this.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

I never read that article or seen Chico speak on the subject, tho I've met him several times over the years. It's just something I've learned over the years.

Thanks for sharing that article. He IS the master! I didn't want to go into that depth since I didn't have the time nor did I want to bore folks with yet another 20 paragraph reply! 

I didn't want to get into details either about advanced leader modifications since I just wanted to cover the basics. I may use a 3ft tippet but not everyone can turn it over properly.

Cheers!


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Ok I will chime in.

1. Leaders need to be no more complicated (tapered) than the fishing you are doing. Fishing for redfish I use two leaders. Bulls I use a 3ft piece section of 40#, a 2 ft section of 30#, and a 2ft section of 20# (or 15# if the fish are a bit leader shy). Slot sized fish then 3ft of 30#, 2ft of 20#, and 2ft of 12 or 15# tippet. Bonefish then I use knotless tapered leaders in 9-15ft depending on where I am fishing. Knots catch grass so for bones that's not ideal.
2. A bite tippet is only a good idea if you are fishing for a fish that requires one. Redfish, bonefish, specks, drum. Don't need a bite tippet. Don't go to all the trouble to tie a nice tapered leader only to lessen its casting quality by using a bite tippet. But if you are fishing for a critter like snook, tarpon, or Spanish macks then by all means you better use one.
3. I use fluorocarbon for all my leader material from the butt down to the tippet except when dry fly fishing for trout. The fact that flouro sinks faster than mono is irrelevant for top water fishing in saltwater. The flies are so bigger in comparison that they simply will not sink from the tippet sinking.
4. BUYER BEWARE: Know the product you are buying and whether or not the manufacturer states an honest breaking strength for their material or give you some bogus number. Most line manufacturers materials will test stronger than their stated breaking strength. The reverse is true for fly fishing products. Many companies overstate their breaking strength per diameter. RIO is one who is actually pretty accurate. This really only matters if you are potentially going to go after an IGFA record. Undertesting is fine but a line that overtests will kill you.


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## Rediculous (May 5, 2012)

So, Chico says he was turning over fine throwing a heavier fly, but when he switched to a lighter fly he had to adjust his leader to counter the weight difference. Now I know I didn't articulate as eloquently as he, but that's basically what I meant by my original post. When I'm using a lead weighted fly, I can get away with using a single or two piece leader. But when I'm throwing light flies or gurglers, I need a more tapered set-up. I'm relatively new to fly-fishing and have a ton to learn (and I very much look forward to it). I gladly take all advise from experienced anglers, see if it benefits my style of fishing and go from there. Sometimes it's helpful to me, sometimes not so much. So many variables in any given scenario. But, I appreciate anyone who takes the time to share their knowledge and experience.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

SkiffinIdaho, I'm not sure where the area is where you are fishing.  Here on the Gulf coast from Tarpon Springs to Key West, the fish get a fair amount of pressure.  So throwing a 7ft leader is not that stealthy and will get less bites due to the simple fact that there is more of a chance of the fish seeing your flyline (or lining them for that matter), unless you are spot-on accurate (which most fly fishermen aren't).  Sure, it's a lot easier to cast, but get's less looks down here in the long run.  

Normal saltwater tapered leaders and tied leader/tippet systems are approx 9ft in length.  I usually fish with at least 10ft +/- total length (which includes the bite tippet) and sometimes up to 12ft.  So 3ft - 40lb, 2ft - 30lb, 18" - 20lb for the butt section, then the 30" +/- or so of tippet and about 12-18" of bite tippet.   It's a little harder to turn over so I don't recommend it.  But I never recommend that setup for beginners to intermediate fly casters since it takes some techniques to keep it managed up in the air.

As far as bite tippet goes, it's a must down here since snook will often be mixed in with redfish and specks.  Other incidental by-catch include ladyfish, jacks, bluefish, runners, cobia, snapper and a number of other species that can chew thru 10 to 16lb tippet with no problem.  Of course, we wouldn't even talk about macks, which there are plenty of them. Oh and cudas for the south tip of Florida, not to mention the Bahamas and the rest of the southern Caribbean.

So does the bite tippet effect the "flow of the roll?"  Yep!  It does!  It hinges and flops over right at that knot where the tippet is tied to the bite tippet.  But it's a necessary evil to be paid in order to land these fish down here.

Besides, I've had plenty of redfish grind their way thru 15 to 20 lb straight tippet, trying to grind out the fly on the bottom, as they often try to do.  However, 20lb is the 1st bite tippet I choose since I usually go for the stealthy approach at first.  Then switch to 25-30lb if the water is murky and or the fish are frisky and let their guard down.

There was a time that I did use fluorocarbon for everything.  Still do for all my clear intermediate sink tips and clear intermediate lines.  Even on my floaters where (again), I'm throwing sub surface flies.  But when you make long cast with a floating and a long fluoro leader system with surface flies that are smaller profile than a popping cork, especially if there is any ripple on the water, than leader will eventually drag the fly down or at least reduce it's surface buoyancy and therefore, it's effectiveness.  Just sayin....

As Itsnotlupus stated (hey, what does your handle mean anyways?), I've pealed off 3ft of 30lb, 3ft of 20lb and 3 ft of 12-15lb with a 30 lb bite tippet in a quick pinch for my 8wt and it works for me, especially with light weight flies.  It's just not the easiest thing to properly turn over for most.  Remember, having a leader than is less in diameter and not tapered right, can sag when it's trying to roll over a heavier fly, resulting in adding to your tailing loop problems.

However Itsnotlupus, having a straight piece of leader material will "hinge" and cause the fly to do weird things tho your flyline loops are doing good.

Let's get back to SkiffinIdaho....  Only the tippet matters what lb test it is (even with IGFA).  All the rest of the butt section of the leader does not matter how many lb test it is or if it test higher than what it's rated.  The rest of the butt section of the leader system, be it store bought tapered or a hand tied leader system, is all about the diameter of the line and it's properties (stiffness vs suppleness).  

Stealthy knots fully cinched down with clipped tag ends flush will trail fairly clean without collecting too much crap on them.  Blood knots, albrights, etc...  But hey, if you are collecting moss on your knots (and I'm "knot" sayin it can't happen either  ), then go to a store bought tapered leader and do what someone said (can't remember who said it on this thread) and just re-tie on a piece of tippet material as you clip it back (well back to a certain point where the tapered line is slightly larger in dia. than the tippet you are tying on).

When hand tying leaders, try to stick with the same brand/ model of line (be it mason, mono or fluoro) when going between the different lb test.  That way, you are gradually stepping between the same properties of leader material and therefore the loops will flow better.  As an example of that, say you got a stiff thick 40lb fluoro to start the butt section, then when to a soft thin mono 30lb, then back to a stiff, thick 20lb., then it will cause funky things like the loop collapsing on itself at the 30lb, then hinging at the 20lb, etc, etc...

If you are trying to stay in line with IGFA (which I tried doing that for years with a couple of species), their regs say the tippet has to be a miin of 18" (knot to knot).  Bite tippet can only be 12" (which includes both knots).  It's a pain in the neck and I don't play that way normally.

Anyway, IF you are trying to stay within IGFA regs, then search out those tippet materials that meet those exact standards.  That is a whole nother world of discussion that we don't need to be getting into on this thread.  Bottom line (pun intended), stick with quality tippet materials and go have fun rather than getting so in-depth in that microcosm of technical malarkey, that it takes the fun right out of it.

However, on the flip side of the coin, don't let me hear about you throwing straight 80 to 100lb leader for tarpon either, or yer gonna get an ear full!      ;D  Hey speaking of that, I knew a guy here in Tampa bay that used straight 100lb mono for his flyline and leader for bridge fishing at night.  That my friends is the fastest way to break a perfectly good rod.  Think of the tippet material being one of the best fuses in preventing a 9ft fly rod from breaking.  Plus it gives the fish an equal vantage point (man vs beast!).  Stu Apte told me once he used 100lb test mono for flyline at one time, where he heated it up and stretched it in areas to give it some taper. Of course, he used a proper leader and tippet with it and that was waaay before they invented clear intermediate fly lines (they didn't have clear floaters either, back in the day....).

Rediculous, go back to the comment where I said straight leaders = hinging.  Yes, with enough force, you can get it out to the same zip code.  But gently and accurately placing it on her front door step is another thing...  Just food for thought.  But hey, don't take my word for it, go test it out on your own and compare the difference.   

Hey guys, you've gone this far, getting that cool microskiff, buying those choice rods, reels and some decent flylines.  You got a hot tip on some serious flies you bought or managed to tie em up right yourself.  So don't let that leader system be the week link between you and that laid up pig out there in that secret honey hole, who may or may not still be wondering if you finally got it together or not yet!    

Just kidding guys!  Go out and have fun!  Life's too short and there is still too many fish to be had!


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Backwater agree with most of what you wrote. 

As I said in my first point, a leader doesn't need to be anymore complicated than necessary. Bottom line is that the leader should be structured for your particular fishery.

Now to where I disagree. I have caught lots of bull redfish on 15 and 20# tippets and have never had a single fish rub through the leader. Nor has anybody fishing on my skiff. Oyster shell bottoms and all. There is no need for a bite tippet for redfish. Shoot I have caught bull reds on 8# tippet when I have been looking for slot sized fish and a toad comes by. Now in a situation where a snook might swim by that's a different story. 

Oh and one more thing. The IGFA tippet requirement is a minimum length of 15 inches. Not 18 inches.


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## Vining (Aug 28, 2012)

This subject always sounds funny to me. Admittedly I ahve only been fly fishing for about 6 years but all this leader stuff seems crazy. Coming from a regular tackle background. We threw straight floro or mono all the time and never do we complain about spooking fish. Yet I get into fly fishing and all of a sudden that last 9 feet of line is something special. I understand if the fly is small and some heavy line might not allow it to fly right. But all this roll over stuff on the heavier flies we use in bass and sLy water just makes little sense. If anything a small fly cast on a straight 15 pound leader is way less of an issue than any big plug we throw on a spinning or casting Rod. I have yet to have any fish spook because of my straight 15 pound leader that would not have spooked at anything else. And why 15 pound you as? Because that is about as small as I can see to tie a knot.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Riverpirate

You are comparing apples to oranges when talking fly fishing versus conventional. Without writing a dissertation the bottom line is that when we are fly fishing we are, depending on the day, casting to fish that are often less than 50ft from the boat. Soft presentations and proper action of the fly are critical hence the need for a proper leader setup.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Idaho, I agree with every thing you are saying, including the comment of "using the right leader for the right fishing situation."

But I still will tell you that I've been cut off with 10-20lb plain fluoro tippet with redfish grinding the fly out on the bottom, especially on some of these sandy bottoms we have with grit, rock and shell.  Then again, I can tell about story about big 30+lb bull reds around pilings and boulders in 45ft deep of fast ripping tides (so fast, you have to run the outboard to keep up) where we use 20 tippet minimum (for the experience fly anglers) and 30lb for the novice guys and both with 12wt rigs and 60lb fluoro bite leaders and believe me when I say you don't want to use anything less.

Idaho, are most of the bottoms you fish silt and mud?  Can you get out of the boat and wade it easily?  If so, that may be why your reds aren't doing the same.

Anyways, a short piece of  20-30lb bite tippet doesn't keep these fish from grabbing the fly (at least down here anyway).

Hey Riverpirate, remember, when you are chunking plugs on spinning gear or bait casters, you are casting the weight of the plug.  With fly fishing, you are not casting the weight of the fly, it's too light.  Try tying one onto your spinning outfit and see how far you get with it.  With fly fishing/ fly casting, you are not casting the weight of the fly but rather the weight of the fly line.  So the fly is along for the ride.  

Also Riverpriate, putting a 3 ft 15lb leader onto a 15lb braided line on your spinning rodcwith the diameter of about 2lb test or even mono line is a different story to the fish then what happenes with a fly line presentation.  More than likely, it will not see that braid or mono way up past your 3 ft leader.  But more than like, it will see a brightly colored orange opaque flyline with the diameter of 60lb test above that same leader and therefore spook the fish.  Hence the reason for the long leader, aside from the fact that the tapering part helps to roll over the tippet where the near weightless fly is attached to and as SkiffinIdaho says, creates an easy presentation to the fish without spooking it.   

Btw Riverpirate, guess you are not Alan (he's a flyrod builder (with 40 flyrods for his personal stash) with more flyrod experience than I've been alive).  Sory for the confusion on the "how many flyrods..." thread.  So then riddle me this Batman (JK, sounded funny anyways  ) , if there is that much confusion about flyline leaders, what are you doing with 42 fly rods?  Just curious.   :-?


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## Vining (Aug 28, 2012)

I realize the difference between regular tackle and fly tackle but the point is the same. The last 9 feet is the same in both, 15# floro or mono depending. Of course the fish may see the fly line, but the leader, straight or tapered, has nothing to do with that. Further if I use a tapered leader, half my leader is larger that the last 15 pound piece so that means it's even easier to see. I just don't see the whole tapered leader thing. I could use them, in fact I get can get them at a very good deal. But why use them. My flies fly no different with them than without them. As I said maybe on a very light fly but not on the heavy flies I throw for bass and salt water fish.

Why do I have so many rods? Because I can. As I posted on the poll, I use 3-11 weights. And have more than one in each weight. I also guide so sometimes clients borrow them.


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## Vining (Aug 28, 2012)

Oh and when I first got into fly fishing, I followed the advise about using tapered leaders. But after trying straight floro and mono for the last three years, I saw no difference in the action of the fly. It's probably because I throw big flies and once the line has them moving they have energy to carry themselves. A small trout fly may be different. But I don't fish for those little slimy things.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

So Riverpirate, from the end of your flyline, how long of exactly what, do you use between your flyline and the fly (say on an 8wt.)?  On that outfit, exactly what flyline and color of the flyline are you using?  So approximately how far are you throwing with it on average?  Have you experience any problem with the fly while casting it?  Also, what are you typically fishing for with that rod and what are the size of the flies (what type of flies?)?  And with that outfit and leader you use, would you consider you are doing pretty good with it and catching what you figured or hoped you would be catching, or do you think there might be some room in there somewhere for improvement? :-?


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## Vining (Aug 28, 2012)

I mostly throw a 7weight here on the rivers I guide on. I typically use a 9 foot leader of just 15 pound floro or mono depending on if I am throwing a subsurface or top water. Flys are anything from a Cowans Coyote to a Harry fodder to a stealth bomber. I have even been known to throw small plastics on a fly rod. I also throw lots of big poppers and baitfish patterns like Pulgisi or halfandhalf and game changers. When I first started using a fly rod I thought I would be handicapped. I though catching fish would be hard. To the contrary i catch more and larger bass on the fly rod than I ised to catch on a regular rod. My cast are typically short 40-50 feet on the river but I do make 70-80 foot casts also.


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## Vining (Aug 28, 2012)

Here is a picture of what most of my clients come for. This is a shoal bass.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Backwater

If you get out of the boat where I fish you might get back in.....but you will be covered in mud. Our waters may have mud bottoms, sand, or oyster shells depending on the specific area you are fishing.

I have fished redfish from LA to the gulf coast of FL down to the keys and both Carolinas. And I have never used a bite tippet for redfish nor have any of the guides I have fished with. But if you use the leader that I do for redfish you already have a hefty business end to start with!


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## landlord2401 (Feb 19, 2013)

Gentlemen
  This has been a great conversation. I was concerned when I didn't agree with how straight vs tapered leaders that it may have been offensive and hurtful. That was not my intent. This is the part of fly fishing that interests me. It is way more than tying a store bought lure on a string and casting a mile. We can't cheat physics but we can explore what works best for us so we can catch more fish. Leaders need to be right for us and the fish. Check out a George Harvey designed leader. Tight loops. Well,maybe not so tight.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Hummm.....  ~thinks~

I can tell you that at 51, my eyes are getting worse than I want them to be (yes I know, I should be wearing glasses and probably will talk myself into getting a pair).  But anyways, sometimes we pay attention to what our fly line is doing, but don't/can't see and therefore don't pay attention to what our leader and fly are doing and can actually observe what it's really doing out there beyond out flyline.

So with that being said, it's possible that your leader and therefore your fly is not doing what it should but by shear inertia energy, the fly seems to make it out there past your flyline and ends up out there on the water anyways.

Question(s) - Are you getting wind knots? Does your fly make it out to the 9ft end of your leader?  Does your fly hit the end of your 9ft leader then bounces back a few feet short of the full length of your leader?  Does your fly drag below your leader or even your fly line while in flight?  Do you notice if your leader is sagging below the tip of your flyline?  Does your fly catch the fly line towards the tail of your loops occasionally??  Does your fly pop the water behind you on your back cast occasionally?  Does your fly smack the water instead of gently settling down on the water?  When you throw longer casts with those weighted flies (half & halfs, coyotes, etc.) in wider open areas on windier days with longer casts, are you noticing wind knots in your tippet?  When you casts either short or long, does your flies seem to follow the exact line and direction of the fly line where it lands straight out in front of your flying approx 9ft out in front of it?  Or does it stop short of the 9ft and plops down on the water or smacks the water?  Or, does the whole leader at the end of your fly line pile up when it lands on the water (like a pile cast?)?

If you have answered yes to any 1 or more of these, it may be due to the cause of you having a straight 15lb 9ft leader.

I can see where if you were throwing those lighter bushy flies on a shorter cast like 40-50ft and opening your loop like you may do (which I would have recommended) in those calm, protected from the wind, areas on the river, then I can see you getting the fly out there within reason.

If you were throwing long, wind resistant tight loops with those weighted flies out on a windy saltwater flat, the straight 15lb leader would not be able to turn over the fly. That leader will not be stiff enough and will get blown around out of sync with your flyline and possible collapse on itself.  Also the weighted fly by shear inertia energy may just be launched to the end of your leader from the end of your fly line but then bounced at the end of the tippet like a bungee and thereby landing the fly other than where you wanted it to go.  So it will be hard to be accurate with the fly.

Btw, NICE bass!!!      We have a bass in north Florida called a suwannee bass that has similar markings on it but tend to be darker due to the tannins in the water.  Plus I don't think they get that big, kinda like a rock bass or red eye.  Anyways, very cool fish!  What area do you catch them?  I'll have to throw that fish in my bucket list of fish to catch on fly.   ;D

Oh yea, I forgot to mention the "Old Town!"  IMO, the best buy for a great, reasonably priced canoe on the market with nice high sides, tracks great, easy to paddle, stable, fast, carries a heavy load and durable!  Hard to beat em!   ;D


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## Vining (Aug 28, 2012)

Well I do get many of those things at one time or the other but it is not a continuous problem for any of those.  Yes I do open the loop up on some Of the heavier flies.  But none of those are consistent issues.  Besides, I would not consider myself a great caster anyway.

We also have Swanee in the southern part of the state.  Presently there are 9 species of black bass.  Georgia has 7 of the 9.  The only state that has that many.  Mostly because of our rivers.  Swanee and shoal bass can't reproduce in damed up water.  It has to be moving.  IDon't you ever want to come up to middle Georgia, I'd be glad to
Put you on some.

As for the canoe.  Thanks for your support.  I am on old Town and Ocean Kayak's Prostaff.  I helped design the Predator kayak for Old town.  We won boat of the year at ICAST two years in a row.  I'll be back in Orlando again this year for a third straight try.


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