# Thoughts on Carbon Fiber, Innegra and Epoxy Resin Builds



## trekker

Give me epoxy over polyester everytime.


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## commtrd

I dont think it is a question of epoxy over vinylester or polyester resins so much as it is carbon fiber over regular e-glass, standard cloth, and bi-axial types (legacy?) Laminating schedules. 

It would be hugely informative to have Chris Morejohn, Boatbrains, and several other very knowledgeable individuals comment in-depth about this very subject. 

Just HOW DESIRABLE IS CARBON FIBER AS A BOAT BUILDING MATERIAL? I know it is very stiff and light. But how well does it handle hundreds of thousands of repetitive hammering shocks from short stiff chop? Technical considerations in lay-up using carbon fiber with respect to radius of corners, directional bias with respect to stress loading, optimal resin-wetting etc.? 

It would be very enlightening to have some gurus of glass provide some real hard-core do's and don'ts on proper laminating schedules for a great resource. Not only for a prospective home builder, but also for anyone looking to buy a skiff for proper evaluation of cost / price and best functionality like weight vs handling diverse conditions etc.


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## jmrodandgun

I don't know shit about carbon but I fish on a carbon boat from time to time. It's nice but it makes this crazy roaring noise when traveling across wind rippled water. Kind of like driving a sports car really fast down a gravel road. Your coffee better have a lid that closes tight or you will be wearing it. 

My experience in motor sports tells me that stiff carbon parts have a weird resonance to them. They tend to be noisy. My wife has an all carbon road bike that feels and sounds very stiff.


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## commtrd

I have a Trek carbon fiber frame and recently ordered a Rodriguez custom steel frame and the difference in ride quality is night and day. The steel frame is MUCH more comfortable to ride. 

Wondering if a completely carbon fiber boat absorbs shock and provides a nice ride on light to moderate chop. Like just about every trip in TX coastal waters the wind will be from a light breeze to a nice gale at around 40+ so it matters if a boat will beat you down or not.


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## devrep

its a good question. or 2 questions:
will a carbon fiber hull hold up to long term hard use
will a carbon fiber hull ride as comfortably and quietly in a chop.

likely if any problems develop it won't be a warranty issue as I'm guessing it would get through the warranty period.


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## commtrd

Yes it would be somewhat unfortunate to discover 5 years later when the last payment is made, that cracks are starting to form around the transom area exactly right about the time the 5 year hull warranty goes away. Then a trip under the boat shows a few more cracks starting to develop along the keel and into the flats. Well darn it that $60k spent on the boat is not looking too good. 

Hopefully this does not prove to be an actual scenario. Increased usage of carbon fiber does seem to be the next direction though.


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## Chris Morejohn

I am basing my thoughts here having since 1973 lived aboard boats for 98% of the time over this time period. I have had the opportunity to have experienced hundreds of different designs in all kinds of conditions from sailboats to small powerboats.
All materials have their place in boat design, construction, and engineering if used properly.
Today in the flats skiff market several materials and building methods in my opinion are used as advertising tools to lure potential buyers by touting the materials greatness alongside their company’s name and by association hoping to glean some build credibility.
During my time at Hells Bay Boatworks Hal and I wrote together all our advertising lingo. We used words like vacuum bagging, Kevlar/carbon construction, patent pending, etc through out our sales pitches. 
We advertised all our hulls in a basic eglass construction version and then a Kevlar carbon one at greater cost.
When asked I always said just go with the eglass build. Explaining that the Kevlar skin would aid in impact resistance only.
In reality 1 layer of 10 oz Kevlar cloth was laid in the outer skin only and a strip of carbon Unidirectional cloth was laid down the top of the stringer. Carbon was used at times in other places under the deck depending on the client and the build.
No mater how I explained it everyone went with the more expensive build. 
The Kevlar and carbon cost difference verse regular Eglass was about $95.00 to us.
When I came up with what became the Waterman series of skiffs these hulls had to cost less so we had to take out more stuff.
So out went the core in the upper hull sides and the build was just 18oz roving and 1-1/2 oz. Matt.
No Kevlar option.
These two build types have it seems held up pretty well over the past 20 years.

Fast forward to today’s market of several builders trying to outdo the ole Whiprays old school building methods. I designed this skiff to be light yet strong using basic materials and user friendly methods that anyone off the street could be taught to build. What made these skiff builds really work well was it was a simple concept of a monocoque build putting hull skin thicknesses in place where it was needed and the rest using common sense elsewhere, and having a good hull shape to mold all this into.

Today finds Carbon and Carbon blends all the rage. Builders using and touting these magic materials are going on about how much lighter their hulls are. Yes they are lighter by 50 or so pounds from their previous builds but they are still way heavier than the Whipray and it’s later sisters originally built at Hells Bay. By many, many lbs.
To me the original micro skiffs started with the Challanger skiffs, Super Skiffs, Maverick Marage, and then the Whipray which introduced super light weight design and engineering compared to its predecessors.

By not taking the commonsense approach to build engineering and practice you can end up with a nightmare.
Look at the above hull build as one example. It’s an all carbon vacuum infused hull. Look at the sharp edges of the core being put into place onto the dry outer skin. Now you can see the inner all carbon skin cloth is in place.
The final photo shows a finished hull that has been infused over the sharp edged core with the worker leaning over its hull.
You can clearly see the core was not tapered to allow the carbon cloth to lay and flow over the cores sharp edges evenly as it’s supposed to. It’s an industry standard to taper all core edges starting from the day the core method was developed. This is a step that has not been used in ignorance by everyone in that shop or as a timesaving cost, cutting out a step in the build process.
What will happen as we all know carbon is very brittle and when bent at a slight angle against a corner it will crack and fail. A hull built like seen above has the potential to fail all along those unfaired sharp core edges.
If built to military specs this hull would be discarded. In America’s cup sailboats this would be laughable.

Carbon is a great material if used properly. In skiff design I would not use it except in certain places like around stringers, bottom of the stern, deck beams etc. I have recently used carbon 12” Wide uni cloth in my last two skiff builds that were solid skin hulls under the stringers. Works great there.
An all carbon hull will be a very rigid unforgiving jumpy feel at rest and underway compared to a regular eglass hull. Not for me. Even if I get the material for free.
In sailboats built properly you have to be very good on your feet at rest because they are so springy it’s like being on a trampoline with your kids.

Kevlar cloth can add impact resistance to a skin over the same weight eglass cloth. The weight savings is minimal between the two. It has no abrasion resistance. Any skiff built with a Kevlar skin on the inside or worse a Kevlar-Carbon blend saw you coming. A waste of $ to no use to the skiff and to you.

Basalt cloth is new to me and I will be using it soon so will get back with what I see. On paper it looks to be a good alternative to Kevlar, eglass for abrasion and sound and increased stiffness over eglass.

I have never used Ennegra blends, I have always stayed away from blends because I see no sense in having one cloths stiffness work against another’s lower stiffness in the same layer of skin. To me it’s like locking your fingers together with someone else’s who you know can break your fingers no problem if bending just a bit.

I hate all biaxel weaves and cloths for light weight skiff construction. Not enough space here to show and explain all the failures I have come across using it. 

So what this comes down to is, engineering first, then building details next, If your aim is to be in the light weight top end micro skiff world.

I will in my coming book have all the info to explain from my point of view and from the industry's to help understand the options out there today. 

The best clue about a skiff salespersons hands on knowledge to me is by how much glue, resin are on its clothes and the shape its hands are in.


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## permitchaser

commtrd said:


> I have a Trek carbon fiber frame and recently ordered a Rodriguez custom steel frame and the difference in ride quality is night and day. The steel frame is MUCH more comfortable to ride.
> 
> Wondering if a completely carbon fiber boat absorbs shock and provides a nice ride on light to moderate chop. Like just about every trip in TX coastal waters the wind will be from a light breeze to a nice gale at around 40+ so it matters if a boat will beat you down or not.


i think my Trek Domane is aluminum and as light as carbon


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## Half Shell

Permitchaser,

I'm guessing you have a Domane AL3 which is the same weight as the cheapest carbon Domane SL4, and about 1.5 lbs heavier than the much more expensive carbon Domane SL6.

If you shell out $8,000 more you can drop another 3 lbs on the SLR9..... and you thought the carbon/kevlar hull upgrade was expensive.


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## flysalt060

What CM said above. Carbon fiber should be used around stringers and stress areas. And depending on the resin used that changed weight. You can use West system epoxy and gain a little weight or whatever resin IRL car builders use and get a very light and flimsy hull.


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## Pole Position

I've never been real smart, and after a couple of drinks this afternoon am probably less so. That being said, for the most part all of our skiffs run around 30mph----we're not talking offshore power boat racing here. We run in the waterways and sheltered creeks--not 4' seas ( though some on this site may claim so ). We are literally talking about less than an inch difference in draft for most boats using this material if the manufacturers were honest . So.....why does anyone need space age material that costs 40% more, unproven, and does not work nearly as well as Viagra for all of us vain, macho , more money than sense boat owners???

Fire away---I can take it...........


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## SkiffsDoWha

All this thread does is make me want to build a boat.


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## commtrd

WOW look at that layup there with that core laid in there crazy like that. And that is superior to these guys' hand built works of art in what way? That just looks horrible.


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## EasternGlow

Carbon might be used for different reasons in bikes. One, it’s significantly lighter than aluminum or steel frame bikes. But it’s also a very stiff material which is great for transferring power through the bike. That stiffness isn’t great for comfort when there’s bumps in the road.


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## flysalt060

Carbon fiber is great for safety cells in racing boats, cause the rest is wood. Someone made a all carbon tunnel boat and if raced will need about 500 lbs of weight to be legal. It is not the be all to end all.


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## Fishtex

The problem I see as coming from the aerospace side, which is light years ahead of the boat market, is the desire to use “advanced”, cutting edge composite tech where it doesn’t apply, purely for marketing to rich fuck wannabes. These are light duty skiffs for chrissakes, not aircraft. 
A better approach would be DFM, Design For Manufacturing. Vacuum infusion, or even better, closed mold. All I have worked on is always based on design and process, process, process. Precise layup schedules, controlled glass to resin ratios with light stiff core added where applicable. Epoxy is superior which is why it’s used in aircraft exclusively not poly based resins for a whole bunch of reasons. But, it’s not necessarily needed in such a low level application. But....you get the layup right and process down, the delta between costs/performance/weight/ CYCLE time, might just favor epoxy. It can all work. 
As far as carbon...why? stiff, light, brittle, but possibly with compromises in a hull application for power boats but has advantages in a racing canoe. It’s about application. 

You can build really great hulls with high quality marine ply and epoxy, light, strong and durable but not suitable for volume production, but done well are superior to anything production based. You can do it the less precise way in a mold, cheap resin, CSM, etc. as well, and pop them out fast and surprisingly good if the layup and process is controlled. They’ll all be fine. 
You can use all the latest fibers and resins and cores with a good design but a so-so process and be no better off than a cheap poly hull using CSM and average mfg process. 

The idea that using the latest and greatest buzz words makes your hull better is just bs, but you guys eat it up and so the mfg’s go where there money is, just like the fly rods and reels. If you really think you can only fish with a $500+ fly reel explains a lot about why we have these discussions. It doesn’t mean anyone is right or wrong. 

And at times I think we should all just STFU.....

YMMV as always...


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## sjrobin

jmrodandgun said:


> I don't know shit about carbon but I fish on a carbon boat from time to time. It's nice but it makes this crazy roaring noise when traveling across wind rippled water. Kind of like driving a sports car really fast down a gravel road. Your coffee better have a lid that closes tight or you will be wearing it.
> 
> My experience in motor sports tells me that stiff carbon parts have a weird resonance to them. They tend to be noisy. My wife has an all carbon road bike that feels and sounds very stiff.


Correct


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## el9surf

Seeing the carbon fiber transoms in the chittums has always made me wonder how durable they are. Not sure if that is just an inlay for show or if the cf has a purpose.


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## commtrd

EXACTLY why I am not buying a pure carbon fiber layup boat. Not enough data on the longevity of those boats, plus I am not sure about how they would ride and handle stiff chop etc. Just too many un-knowns to risk big dollars on at this time.


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## Stevie

My understanding on carbon is that besides the specific weight savings of the same weight carbon vs fiberglass, carbon’s strength means the builder doesn’t need to use as much or as heavy of carbon cloth as they would use fiberglass for the same application, and carbon absorbs significantly less resin than fiberglass.


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## Sublime

Today I'm ordering 300 gram twill basalt cloth for my Conchfish build. I see no downside to it other than it is more expensive. But what's another $250-$300 when I'm having this much fun? It might end up a tad heavier, but my build is minimalist old school whip style, no walkable gunnels etc.


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## Sethsawyer

Not all skiff companies show their true #'s for weight differences for carbon and non carbon hulls, but surf ski, and SUP companies do, and you can verify with a bathroom scale.

my 14' cored fiberglass race board weighs 26lb
the 14' cored Carbon board weights 23lbs

the difference in the skins: the glass board uses two full layers of 6oz glass to cover the entire board. the carbon uses 1 layer of 5.7oz carbon to cover the board. Obviously not much of a weight difference for a serious difference in durability. If you are an olympic athlete with a team to repair your gear carbon is the way to go.....is it worth it for a skiff......depends on what you want.



Kevlar is popular due to it's success in the ultralight canoe market, and it is a better material than glass for light weight hulls when you do not use a core, but all these skiffs are cored and so not as big a deal.

problems with exotics and for the home built skiff:

Carbon is expensive and not clear so when you wet it out it is easier to get dry spots. 5.7oz would be about the heaviest I would want to hand wetout.
Kevlar is a pain to work with. You cannot sand it, and it is a bear to cut, and if you damage it it absorbs water and is difficult to repair. You can see a good color change when it wets out, but is thicker and so 10oz is really hard to work with on any kind of contour. 5oz would probably be best for a hand layup.
innegra is less dense than epoxy so it floats making a hand layup almost impossible without peel-ply There is a lot of success in using innegra fiberglass blends in the canoe market, but again those are uncored skins.
I do not know anything about basalt, but my guess is it is similar to kevlar and you would want to use very light 5oz or so cloth to laminate well.

Cool stuff though and I still think i might add a bit of exotics in a second skiff build, but 90% of your skiff weight is determined by your design and making sure there is no extra resin in your layups.


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## Net 30

Would be great if one of the builders currently using Carbon would chime in.......


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## Fishtex

Miscellaneous Rambling: There are builders out there who have been using carbon for 20 years running or more.....Hinckley anyone?, we’ve been using carbon fiber composites in everything from aircraft to bike frames for over 30.....there is a bunch of data out there, the knowledge is there but it’s about access to that knowledge and let me say from experience that the boat industry has never been particularly generous with spending money on R&D...for obvious reasons. Like most things I work in the answer is usually -“ it’s geometry dependent or follow the money” 

in the end, it’s just a fuckin boat. I’d much rather fish from an old Willy Roberts or a classic Fibercraft, etc., than the guy who just threw money at it. Guides are a different story. OTOH....if you got it, spend it, so the rest of us will have a chance when you get tired of your latest toy,. 

I passed on a restored classic out of south FLA, Palm Beach throttle, Rybovich console, no kidding, etc., it ended up in DFW a few years back, semi local guy bought it -he’s on here- and I could kick my self for not buying that boat. Glad he got it. Just think of the fish that boat has seen. Point is...style or substance?...sometimes you can do both. Any idiot can throw money at it, but is it really necessary? For some...yes, the rest, it depends. I don’t have the big ego so no it’s not necessary. 

What’s new will become old or vintage at some point so it’s just timing..... Mezcal tonight!


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## Fritz

A thought that has been rattling around my otherwise fairly empty head lately is what if, on my next build, instead of three layers of 10oz, then fair, then prime, then paint. What if I did most of the shaping on the core... or lay down two layers of 10oz glass and lightly faired that with no sharp edges and then one layer of carbon, 3K or 6K and used West System epoxy with the UV blocking 207 hardener (or regular epoxy and a uv clear coat). 

My primary goal to shortcut fairing/priming and painting and reduce weight while making for an easier build at a similar total cost. An obvious downside is it won’t be crazy perfect like @Sethsawyer’s boat, but maybe the gloss black carbon will distract from the bumps and valleys from less fairing and, importantly, is the fairing mostly cosmetic? Will this boat perform as well? (I definitely would not need to be in the garage at midnight with a flashlight looking for shadows and I’m thinking it would look super cool!)

Carbon has been around for a long time, I’m not overly worried about it failing unpredictably.

Also, I am aware that adding a layer of carbon to a glass layup will not enhance tension strength at all (because the stiffer carbon will fail long before the glass, leaving the glass to fend for itself) so how important is tension strength to a cored hull?


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## Sethsawyer

Kevlar stand up paddle board I built. Kevlar clear coated looks sharp. 



Fritz said:


> A thought that has been rattling around my otherwise fairly empty head lately is what if, on my next build, instead of three layers of 10oz, then fair, then prime, then paint. What if I did most of the shaping on the core... or lay down two layers of 10oz glass and lightly faired that with no sharp edges and then one layer of carbon, 3K or 6K and used West System epoxy with the UV blocking 207 hardener (or regular epoxy and a uv clear coat).
> 
> My primary goal to shortcut fairing/priming and painting and reduce weight while making for an easier build at a similar total cost. An obvious downside is it won’t be crazy perfect like @Sethsawyer’s boat, but maybe the gloss black carbon will distract from the bumps and valleys from less fairing and, importantly, is the fairing mostly cosmetic? Will this boat perform as well? (I definitely would not need to be in the garage at midnight with a flashlight looking for shadows and I’m thinking it would look super cool!)
> 
> Carbon has been around for a long time, I’m not overly worried about it failing unpredictably.
> 
> Also, I am aware that adding a layer of carbon to a glass layup will not enhance tension strength at all (because the stiffer carbon will fail long before the glass, leaving the glass to fend for itself) so how important is tension strength to a cored hull?


I thought about doing this with Kevlar and I actually might if I build a slightly smaller simpler skiff. I would strip and fair the foam really well. Then glass really carefully to keep the hull almost fair then lay down your final layers You would probably want to do a carbon layer and then a 6oz or 4oz layer of glass to cover this way if you sand through your fill coat you hit glass not your show cloth. 6oz glass lays down almost perfectly clear. then 3 coats neat epoxy sand smooth...not necessarily fair, but smooth two more coats of epoxy sand down to 220 then varnish.

problems: The paint/primer protects the epoxy/glass from UV degredation and scratches. In the canoe world a bright finish like this is several lbs lighter so with a skiff you should end up lighter as well. I wouldn't use carbon for the deck or interior as this would get hot. Kevlar would be fine. . You would still need to clear coat with varnish (polyurethane or spar.) This would give it some UV protection, but you would really need to keep this boat in a garage. 

Kevlar canoes do not show scratches or minor imperfections due to the weave kinda acting as camo for any problem spots. Not sure how much cheaper it would really be, and your outer coating would be thinner meaning easier to damage your structural cloths, but .....it would be pretty cool though.


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## bryson

@Fritz I would not mix fiberglass and carbon in a layup due to the different stiffness. For example, say the plans call for 30 oz of fiberglass cloth, and you decide to do 20 oz of glass and 10 oz of carbon. I believe that what will happen is the carbon (being significantly stiffer) will carry almost the entire load initially. Since 10 oz of carbon isn't enough to carry the load, it will fail. Then, once it fails, the load will be transferred to the 20 oz of fiberglass, which also isn't enough, causing it to fail.

I would need to actually look at some numbers and stress-strain curves to back this up, but I believe this is the case. If I were incorporating carbon, I would build strategic components out of it -- maybe entire hatch lids, or maybe a carbon stringer or tabs for the deck, basically anything that you want to be stiffer than glass, but I wouldn't mix the two across a whole layup.


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## Fritz

bryson said:


> @Fritz I would not mix fiberglass and carbon in a layup due to the different stiffness. For example, say the plans call for 30 oz of fiberglass cloth, and you decide to do 20 oz of glass and 10 oz of carbon. I believe that what will happen is the carbon (being significantly stiffer) will carry almost the entire load initially. Since 10 oz of carbon isn't enough to carry the load, it will fail. Then, once it fails, the load will be transferred to the 20 oz of fiberglass, which also isn't enough, causing it to fail.
> 
> I would need to actually look at some numbers and stress-strain curves to back this up, but I believe this is the case. If I were incorporating carbon, I would build strategic components out of it -- maybe entire hatch lids, or maybe a carbon stringer or tabs for the deck, basically anything that you want to be stiffer than glass, but I wouldn't mix the two across a whole layup.


I agree!

Here ya’ go: 




Under seven minutes and this guy demonstrates the math on a carbon reinforced fiberglass layup, tension only.


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## Smackdaddy53

Fritz said:


> I agree!
> 
> Here ya’ go:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Under seven minutes and this guy demonstrates the math on a carbon reinforced fiberglass layup, tension only.


That totally busted my beliefs, nice post!


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## Fishtex

When carbon fails, it just goes, no stress cracks, no telltail, “catastrophic failure” is the term. I have seen plenty of carbon fiber e/s glass layups. The carbon is for additional stiffness while keeping the weight down, while the regular glass provides impact strength and some stiffness. The how and where is the trick and I’m not a composites engineer I just helped them look good.


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## Cut Runner

Will someone please build me a balsa cored skiff with one layer of carbon on each side , no paint, just clearcoat.
Please and thankyou


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## devrep

is there a clearcoat that won't break down and turn yellow in the sun?


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## Half Shell

For epoxy garage flooring, polyurea top coat doesn't yellow in the sun like epoxy. I have no idea if it's appropiate for gel coat or boats. You would think there would have to be a similair product for this.


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## Fishtex

devrep said:


> is there a clearcoat that won't break down and turn yellow in the sun?


You should be able to add a UV inhibitor to the resin. It’s what we do with thermoplastic resins. When you spec out plastic like ABS or polycarbonate you’ll find versions with UV packages or flame retardant additives, etc. 

I recall working on a peddle powered kayak project that was all carbon and the hatches were clear finished epoxy, I was told they had UV protection so no issues. I would still go with a UV resistant clear urethane top coat as it will extend the life of the epoxy. From experience I don’t think anything can stand up to UV over time.


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## Charles Hadley

I have a new drake outlaw, carbon/carbon inegra, does what it's intended to,float shallow and pole easy in and out of the grass.Sweet side console I might add!


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## Fritz

Charles Hadley said:


> I have a new drake outlaw, carbon/carbon inegra, does what it's intended to,float shallow and pole easy in and out of the grass.Sweet side console I might add!


Dude, that’s like farting in a elevator... it’s just wrong. Pictures man! We need to see that boat.


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## Charles Hadley

Charles Hadley said:


> I have a new drake outlaw, carbon/carbon inegra, does what it's intended to,float shallow and pole easy in and out of the grass.Sweet side console I might add![/QUOT


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## Charles Hadley

Fritz said:


> Dude, that’s like farting in a elevator... it’s just wrong. Pictures man! We need to see that boat.


Trying to upload pictures. Bit tarded


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## Charles Hadley




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## Charles Hadley

Skiff will be on display at Tailers Ball on Oct 4 in Charleston at tradesmen brewery all evening if anyone wants to check


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## Charles Hadley

Fritz said:


> A thought that has been rattling around my otherwise fairly empty head lately is what if, on my next build, instead of three layers of 10oz, then fair, then prime, then paint. What if I did most of the shaping on the core... or lay down two layers of 10oz glass and lightly faired that with no sharp edges and then one layer of carbon, 3K or 6K and used West System epoxy with the UV blocking 207 hardener (or regular epoxy and a uv clear coat).
> 
> My primary goal to shortcut fairing/priming and painting and reduce weight while making for an easier build at a similar total cost. An obvious downside is it won’t be crazy perfect like @Sethsawyer’s boat, but maybe the gloss black carbon will distract from the bumps and valleys from less fairing and, importantly, is the fairing mostly cosmetic? Will this boat perform as well? (I definitely would not need to be in the garage at midnight with a flashlight looking for shadows and I’m thinking it would look super cool!)
> 
> Carbon has been around for a long time, I’m not overly worried about it failing unpredictably.
> 
> Also, I am aware that adding a layer of carbon to a glass layup will not enhance tension strength at all (because the stiffer carbon will fail long before the glass, leaving the glass to fend for itself) so how important is tension strength to a cored hull?


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## Charles Hadley

Darker the color the more you see waves and deviations, same as paint.


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## Sublime

@Charles Hadley beautiful skiff. F25? Short Shaft? If short shaft, do you have a CMC tilt unit? What is your top speed?


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## Charles Hadley

Sublime said:


> @Charles Hadley beautiful skiff. F25? Short Shaft? If short shaft, do you have a CMC tilt unit? What is your top speed?


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## Charles Hadley

25 long with plate


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## Charles Hadley

27 mph 3 blade 10 pitch


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## Tigweld

The Outlaw has a 20” transom


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## Stevie

Wow, @Charles Hadley, beautiful boat. Is that 27 mph running solo?


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## Charles Hadley

It may but my skiff was built as to how they build them.25 Yamaha long shaft with jackplate.it works as to their design. That's all that matters to me


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## Charles Hadley

Yes 27 solo not meant to go any faster by me it's all good.


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## Stevie

el9surf said:


> Seeing the carbon fiber transoms in the chittums has always made me wonder how durable they are. Not sure if that is just an inlay for show or if the cf has a purpose.


@el9surf The above are photos of the transom on a 12 degree all carbon Snake Bight with Mercury 175xs that has run up to 72 mph. There is a lot of stress on the transom, and whole boat at this speed.

To my understanding, the carbon Chittum’s boats is not layered with fiberglass different sections are either glass or carbon. Carbon is standard on transoms, stingers and structural parts on all boats. I believe the 1/2 carbon package includes carbon bulkheads liner and deck.


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## mariscos

Fishtex said:


> The problem I see as coming from the aerospace side, which is light years ahead of the boat market, is the desire to use “advanced”, cutting edge composite tech where it doesn’t apply, purely for marketing to rich fuck wannabes. These are light duty skiffs for chrissakes, not aircraft.
> A better approach would be DFM, Design For Manufacturing. Vacuum infusion, or even better, closed mold. All I have worked on is always based on design and process, process, process. Precise layup schedules, controlled glass to resin ratios with light stiff core added where applicable. Epoxy is superior which is why it’s used in aircraft exclusively not poly based resins for a whole bunch of reasons. But, it’s not necessarily needed in such a low level application. But....you get the layup right and process down, the delta between costs/performance/weight/ CYCLE time, might just favor epoxy. It can all work.
> As far as carbon...why? stiff, light, brittle, but possibly with compromises in a hull application for power boats but has advantages in a racing canoe. It’s about application.
> 
> You can build really great hulls with high quality marine ply and epoxy, light, strong and durable but not suitable for volume production, but done well are superior to anything production based. You can do it the less precise way in a mold, cheap resin, CSM, etc. as well, and pop them out fast and surprisingly good if the layup and process is controlled. They’ll all be fine.
> You can use all the latest fibers and resins and cores with a good design but a so-so process and be no better off than a cheap poly hull using CSM and average mfg process.
> 
> The idea that using the latest and greatest buzz words makes your hull better is just bs, but you guys eat it up and so the mfg’s go where there money is, just like the fly rods and reels. If you really think you can only fish with a $500+ fly reel explains a lot about why we have these discussions. It doesn’t mean anyone is right or wrong.
> 
> And at times I think we should all just STFU.....
> 
> YMMV as always...


Personally I need a $900 reel to catch fish.


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## mariscos

I just bought a Spear boat. Great design. Simple glass layup. Floats shallow, runs fast, dry and smooth for what it is, and anyone can repair it. I get to shallow tailers and stay On them a helluva lot longer on falling water. I have zero expertise on skiff building. But I can speak to what can be achieved by a skilled fiberglass craftsman, and how effective this tool is for me. 

A good friend built a lot of boats and isn’t sold on the space age materials. Similar to Chris he refers to them as boat company marketing smoke and mirrors.


----------



## mariscos

A lot of people here are speaking to the use of carbon in hulls and that is might not be advisable. 

what about using it heavily on the cap, other topside like hatches and console? Again I don’t have the expertise interested to learn.


----------



## Guest

mariscos said:


> A lot of people here are speaking to the use of carbon in hulls and that is might not be advisable.
> 
> what about using it heavily on the cap, other topside like hatches and console? Again I don’t have the expertise interested to learn.


Carbon is fine when used correctly. It does conduct electricity so keep that in mind.


----------



## BCPD199

mariscos said:


> A lot of people here are speaking to the use of carbon in hulls and that it might not be advisable.
> 
> What about using it heavily on the cap, other topside like hatches and console? Again I don’t have the expertise interested to learn.


I was wondering the same. I was thinking for use in a deck and it's hatches. Flat surface, relative low impact except for walking on. Save 30 to 40 lbs over a regular 'glass deck. Now whether or not it's worth 2k upcharge, that's a question for another day.


----------



## Fishtex

You can buy pre glassed Nida core panels in epoxy which are lighter than anything you can lay up yourself outside of vacuum bagging and would be cheaper and more suitable.


----------



## commtrd

commtrd said:


> EXACTLY why I am not buying a pure carbon fiber layup boat. Not enough data on the longevity of those boats, plus I am not sure about how they would ride and handle stiff chop etc. Just too many un-knowns to risk big dollars on at this time.


Well OK looks like I am about to feast on my own words: I have ordered a full carbon Laguna Madre 2. With a tunnel. I unwisely spoke earlier before actually riding on and poling a full carbon Chittum. For the record I am not rich wannabe. The LM2 is so far superior to the 2017 Professional I owned that it is ridiculous. The Chittum I rode on was not a tunnel, it ran in water I would not have believed had I not seen it. Crossed Copano Bay with a 30 mph southeasterly and a fairly nasty cross chop. The boat rode on top and we didnt get beat near as bad as I thought. Still is a 2* deadrise, so will never ride like a 12* hull, but choices made for priorities. The boat several times was poled to within a foot of redfish before they detected a boat nearby. True I saw it personally. I had to seriously adjust my poling the LM2 compared to the pro. Far less effort required to push it, and spins so easily it is crazy. Not having sponsons is a very good thing. 

I am not remotely concerned about the boat longevity and durability. What is advisable is for all considering buying a boat (me included) to actually ride on the boat, and actually do research before just stating untrue bullshit. Anyway, it is my hard earned going on the line here and all the nonsense that keyboard cowboys can spew really does not matter. Same as if I was buying a Drake Outlaw or anything else. Before the crap starts about "Chittum fanboi" starts.


----------



## bryson

commtrd said:


> Well OK looks like I am about to feast on my own words: I have ordered a full carbon Laguna Madre 2. With a tunnel. I unwisely spoke earlier before actually riding on and poling a full carbon Chittum. For the record I am not rich wannabe. The LM2 is so far superior to the 2017 Professional I owned that it is ridiculous. The Chittum I rode on was not a tunnel, it ran in water I would not have believed had I not seen it. Crossed Copano Bay with a 30 mph southeasterly and a fairly nasty cross chop. The boat rode on top and we didnt get beat near as bad as I thought. Still is a 2* deadrise, so will never ride like a 12* hull, but choices made for priorities. The boat several times was poled to within a foot of redfish before they detected a boat nearby. True I saw it personally. I had to seriously adjust my poling the LM2 compared to the pro. Far less effort required to push it, and spins so easily it is crazy. Not having sponsons is a very good thing.
> 
> I am not remotely concerned about the boat longevity and durability. What is advisable is for all considering buying a boat (me included) to actually ride on the boat, and actually do research before just stating untrue bullshit. Anyway, it is my hard earned going on the line here and all the nonsense that keyboard cowboys can spew really does not matter. Same as if I was buying a Drake Outlaw or anything else. Before the crap starts about "Chittum fanboi" starts.


Congratulations! Please post pictures of the progress!


----------



## TheAdamsProject

commtrd said:


> Well OK looks like I am about to feast on my own words: I have ordered a full carbon Laguna Madre 2. With a tunnel. I unwisely spoke earlier before actually riding on and poling a full carbon Chittum. For the record I am not rich wannabe. The LM2 is so far superior to the 2017 Professional I owned that it is ridiculous. The Chittum I rode on was not a tunnel, it ran in water I would not have believed had I not seen it. Crossed Copano Bay with a 30 mph southeasterly and a fairly nasty cross chop. The boat rode on top and we didnt get beat near as bad as I thought. Still is a 2* deadrise, so will never ride like a 12* hull, but choices made for priorities. The boat several times was poled to within a foot of redfish before they detected a boat nearby. True I saw it personally. I had to seriously adjust my poling the LM2 compared to the pro. Far less effort required to push it, and spins so easily it is crazy. Not having sponsons is a very good thing.
> 
> I am not remotely concerned about the boat longevity and durability. What is advisable is for all considering buying a boat (me included) to actually ride on the boat, and actually do research before just stating untrue bullshit. Anyway, it is my hard earned going on the line here and all the nonsense that keyboard cowboys can spew really does not matter. Same as if I was buying a Drake Outlaw or anything else. Before the crap starts about "Chittum fanboi" starts.


Congratulations, it certainly does make a difference putting the boat through its paces rather than just listening to rhetoric or opinions based on speculation. I had to see it myself when I tested my '04 Pro side by side with the 2deg and 12deg all at the same time on the water. Mine is now just over a year old and still delighted every-time I fish her.


----------



## finbully

theoretically, if I’m driving an F22A Raptor and snapping out of a 8 G ascent to transition to a -3 G dive I will have a seat of the pants feel with the carbon and other classified materials of the airframe that I will not feel when driving an aluminum riveted F101 of the past. For flats fishing I would not gain that same benefit of a tactical firing solution, or materially significant draft gains. The weight savings will be moot for me as there are a fleet of skiffs that will float all day in 8” loaded which is my reference bar. I blew any weight savings as my girth expanded over time and the addition of a TM with its’ two batteries. Maybe the glamorous thing in boat building right now but to each their own. I’ll hold out for flats boat hovercraft technology.


----------



## commtrd

The weight savings are paramount for extreme shallow water poling around in marsh etc. I would not have believed the difference weight and advanced design makes in a boat had I not experienced it first hand. It is good that there are options available for those who see no benefit to dramatically decreased weight, combined with advanced design features.


----------



## Miragein

Just was curious—now that these skiffs are getting so light, how are they poling in a strong wind? Do they tend to get away from ya on the pole?


----------



## Capnredfish

No. They have an advanced coating providing no friction going forward or backwards. But it sticks to water like glue going sideways. Miracle shlt really.


----------



## el9surf

Stevie said:


> View attachment 94256
> View attachment 94258
> View attachment 94260
> 
> 
> @el9surf The above are photos of the transom on a 12 degree all carbon Snake Bight with Mercury 175xs that has run up to 72 mph. There is a lot of stress on the transom, and whole boat at this speed.
> 
> To my understanding, the carbon Chittum’s boats is not layered with fiberglass different sections are either glass or carbon. Carbon is standard on transoms, stingers and structural parts on all boats. I believe the 1/2 carbon package includes carbon bulkheads liner and deck.


The trend seems to be headed towards lots of carbon fiber layup schedules. The cf transom looks awesome but what does the carbon fiber achieve that can't be done with standard vac bagged glass? Is cf lighter and stronger when laminated than regular glass? Would vacuum bagging both materials side by side everything else being the same (foam core & resin) yield a significant weight difference? I thought cf was more prone to stress cracking where glass allows for a little more flex before failure. Are these builds trading longevity and durability for weight? Is hull flex and ride quality with standard glass an advantage to consider over cf considering the beating it will take over its life?


----------



## Half Shell

On the durability vs performance thing..... one of the things that makes dropping absurd amounts of money on boats is that the hull should last the remainder of your life and beyond with care. I've always been an early adopter of most things and even have $4000+ carbon fiber framed bicycles and $600 carbon blank fishing rods. I'm cautiously optimistic about electric cars and carbon fiber boats, but I be damned if I have the balls to drop $70K on a carbon fiber skiff or even a carbon transom today. I need about 20-30 years of proven track record before I would feel comfortable with that.

America's Cup racing boats is one thing. I need a hull that I am confident will expire long after me even after a few "oh shits".


----------



## Stevie

Miragein said:


> Just was curious—now that these skiffs are getting so light, how are they poling in a strong wind? Do they tend to get away from ya on the pole?


No, lighter boats pole into the wind better than a heavier boat in my experience.


----------



## george kleinstuber

Charles Hadley said:


> I have a new drake outlaw, carbon/carbon inegra, does what it's intended to,float shallow and pole easy in and out of the grass.Sweet side console I might add!


Picking mine up next week ! Console looks nice! Are you loving it ?


----------



## bryson

el9surf said:


> The trend seems to be headed towards lots of carbon fiber layup schedules. The cf transom looks awesome but what does the carbon fiber achieve that can't be done with standard vac bagged glass? Is cf lighter and stronger when laminated than regular glass? Would vacuum bagging both materials side by side everything else being the same (foam core & resin) yield a significant weight difference? I thought cf was more prone to stress cracking where glass allows for a little more flex before failure. Are these builds trading longevity and durability for weight? Is hull flex and ride quality with standard glass an advantage to consider over cf considering the beating it will take over its life?


Carbon is stiffer and stronger than e-glass. So, it depends on your design parameters. If you want to build a panel with equal load-carrying capacity, the carbon one will be lighter (thinner skins). If you build a panel with the same weight, the carbon one will be stronger. For a foam sandwich construction, the stiffness will be more a function of the overall thickness than it will be of the skin material (increases linearly with skin stiffness, but exponentially with sample thickness). Increasing core thickness is much more effective than choosing a skin with higher stiffness. Obviously this isn't always an option with a skiff. The load-carrying capacity will be determined more by the thickness and strength of the skin (assuming no excessive deflection and sufficiently strong core).

I do think that carbon layups are less resistant to fatigue than glass, but I also don't believe most of the cracks and things that you see on skiffs are due to fatigue (this is a big assumption since I don't have lots of experience in this field). I think you get these infrequent, large loads that occur during use -- hitting a dock, running aground, hitting a pothole while on a trailer, etc... and I think those are larger contributors than high-cycle fatigue that comes from normal operation. So maybe fiberglass has an advantage there when it comes time to absorb some of that load. But, the carbon can handle much higher loads for a given weight, so maybe it doesn't need to absorb/dissipate that load as much.

I'm a mechanical engineer by trade but don't have a lot of direct experience with composites design, and have been out of school for over a decade. Think I've still got a grip on the principles, though. If anyone has more experience with composites design and disagrees with anything I said, I'd love to get corrected or re-edumacated.


edit:
On a side note -- are these builders using epoxy or poly resin with the carbon layups? I know Drake claims to use epoxy, though I don't know if it's 100% throughout the whole build. I'd be curious to see what weight savings could be gained by using epoxy resin and e-glass, and getting rid of most of the chop-strand mat. I'm guessing the swap to carbon is more bang for the buck, but maybe it's also because epoxy isn't as sexy as carbon fiber...


----------



## Charles Hadley

george kleinstuber said:


> Picking mine up next week ! Console looks nice! Are you loving it ?


Absolutely, purpose built to get skinny and does it well.Are you getting tiller or console?


----------



## texasag07

I had talked to someone with some good intel on the chittum’s and there is some CSM in the layup which would imply Vinylester or Poly resin. This was earlier on so maybe things have changed.

I am also not using this as a shit talking point as vinylester is a pretty decent resin from what I have seen. I think a lot of us think our boats are all made from epoxy based on looking at some of these home builds or we attribute the fact they cost so much so they must be built using the most expensive technology(epoxy).

I theorize a lot of us are wrong about production boats.


----------



## george kleinstuber

Charles Hadley said:


> Absolutely, purpose built to get skinny and does it well.Are you getting tiller or console?


Tiller. Wanted a basic skiff. But of course ended up loaded with options ! Those controls on yours are great ! Who wrapped your wheel? Would like to maybe do my grab bar to make it a little earthy !


----------



## Charles Hadley

george kleinstuber said:


> Tiller. Wanted a basic skiff. But of course ended up loaded with options ! Those controls on yours are great ! Who wrapped your wheel? Would like to maybe do my grab bar to make it a little earthy !


Captain hunters addiction, wrapped wheel, he just did my cooler backrest bar top yesterday, I will pm you his number,he does Drake's work as well.


----------



## Charles Hadley

george kleinstuber said:


> Tiller. Wanted a basic skiff. But of course ended up loaded with options ! Those controls on yours are great ! Who wrapped your wheel? Would like to maybe do my grab bar to make it a little earthy !


Did you get any cushions?their guy Redbeard @holycitytrimshop does incredible work


----------



## Guest

commtrd said:


> Well OK looks like I am about to feast on my own words: I have ordered a full carbon Laguna Madre 2. With a tunnel. I unwisely spoke earlier before actually riding on and poling a full carbon Chittum. For the record I am not rich wannabe. The LM2 is so far superior to the 2017 Professional I owned that it is ridiculous. The Chittum I rode on was not a tunnel, it ran in water I would not have believed had I not seen it. Crossed Copano Bay with a 30 mph southeasterly and a fairly nasty cross chop. The boat rode on top and we didnt get beat near as bad as I thought. Still is a 2* deadrise, so will never ride like a 12* hull, but choices made for priorities. The boat several times was poled to within a foot of redfish before they detected a boat nearby. True I saw it personally. I had to seriously adjust my poling the LM2 compared to the pro. Far less effort required to push it, and spins so easily it is crazy. Not having sponsons is a very good thing.
> 
> I am not remotely concerned about the boat longevity and durability. What is advisable is for all considering buying a boat (me included) to actually ride on the boat, and actually do research before just stating untrue bullshit. Anyway, it is my hard earned going on the line here and all the nonsense that keyboard cowboys can spew really does not matter. Same as if I was buying a Drake Outlaw or anything else. Before the crap starts about "Chittum fanboi" starts.


Congrats, ya fan boy!​


----------



## Guest

bryson said:


> Carbon is stiffer and stronger than e-glass. So, it depends on your design parameters. If you want to build a panel with equal load-carrying capacity, the carbon one will be lighter (thinner skins). If you build a panel with the same weight, the carbon one will be stronger. For a foam sandwich construction, the stiffness will be more a function of the overall thickness than it will be of the skin material (increases linearly with skin stiffness, but exponentially with sample thickness). Increasing core thickness is much more effective than choosing a skin with higher stiffness. Obviously this isn't always an option with a skiff. The load-carrying capacity will be determined more by the thickness and strength of the skin (assuming no excessive deflection and sufficiently strong core).
> 
> I do think that carbon layups are less resistant to fatigue than glass, but I also don't believe most of the cracks and things that you see on skiffs are due to fatigue (this is a big assumption since I don't have lots of experience in this field). I think you get these infrequent, large loads that occur during use -- hitting a dock, running aground, hitting a pothole while on a trailer, etc... and I think those are larger contributors than high-cycle fatigue that comes from normal operation. So maybe fiberglass has an advantage there when it comes time to absorb some of that load. But, the carbon can handle much higher loads for a given weight, so maybe it doesn't need to absorb/dissipate that load as much.
> 
> I'm a mechanical engineer by trade but don't have a lot of direct experience with composites design, and have been out of school for over a decade. Think I've still got a grip on the principles, though. If anyone has more experience with composites design and disagrees with anything I said, I'd love to get corrected or re-edumacated.
> 
> 
> edit:
> On a side note -- are these builders using epoxy or poly resin with the carbon layups? I know Drake claims to use epoxy, though I don't know if it's 100% throughout the whole build. I'd be curious to see what weight savings could be gained by using epoxy resin and e-glass, and getting rid of most of the chop-strand mat. I'm guessing the swap to carbon is more bang for the buck, but maybe it's also because epoxy isn't as sexy as carbon fiber...


I am no “engineer” but have researched until I am blue and I’d say you are pretty spot on! I’d like to chat with ya some about the subject some time! I am working out a new lam schedule for X-Caliber 2.0 and think I have the best compromise for strength/weight/longevity/abrasion and puncture resistance with my scantlings and would like to run by someone smarter than I!​


----------



## george kleinstuber

Charles Hadley said:


> Did you get any cushions?their guy Redbeard @holycitytrimshop does incredible work


Yes ! White/ black trim.


----------



## Matts

Fan boy here as well. About the only poling flaw with my Chittum full carbon LM 2 (hull #1) is that if just myself (185#) and my son (120#) are fishing, you need the weight of the 45Q up front to help it in a heavy headwind. It's really a minor thing and with 3 people, it's a dream to pole. Like Keith said, it's just so easy to spin and it tracks very, very well. With the weight savings, it' easy to move around the garage, launch, etc. I was poling saturday and it stopped floating in about 4.5-5" and I just pushed it off. I always carry wading boots but have yet to have to get out to push it. That's an absolutely HUGE change from my previous BT Mosquito and there simply is no comparison between these skiffs. I'm not knocking BT as a company as I loved working with them but I'm very objective in how I evaluate my skiff. The only reason I would ever sell this one would be to get another one. My 0.02. 
All the best,


----------



## bryson

Boatbrains said:


> I am no “engineer” but have researched until I am blue and I’d say you are pretty spot on! I’d like to chat with ya some about the subject some time! I am working out a new lam schedule for X-Caliber 2.0 and think I have the best compromise for strength/weight/longevity/abrasion and puncture resistance with my scantlings and would like to run by someone smarter than I!​


Appreciate the compliment, I'd love to chat sometime. I'm not a naval architect/engineer though, so I am hesitant to recommend specifics as far as scantlings/layups go. But overall design, or comparisons between concepts and existing designs, I'd be happy to "nerd out" with you some.


----------



## Guest

bryson said:


> Appreciate the compliment, I'd love to chat sometime. I'm not a naval architect/engineer though, so I am hesitant to recommend specifics as far as scantlings/layups go. But overall design, or comparisons between concepts and existing designs, I'd be happy to "nerd out" with you some.


Cool, I have a “little experience” with all of the materials and know what I want but would like your input on my thoughts anyway.


----------



## MariettaMike

Boatbrains said:


> I am no “engineer” but have researched until I am blue and I’d say you are pretty spot on! I’d like to chat with ya some about the subject some time! I am working out a new lam schedule for X-Caliber 2.0 and think I have the best compromise for strength/weight/longevity/abrasion and puncture resistance with my scantlings and would like to run by someone smarter than I!​


I am an engineer, and the things Chittum is doing with all carbon is NOT just a matter of materials, and build schedule. The combination of the hull, spray rails, and crowned cap are structurally superior to everyone else’s design.

The levees in rice fields are curved for a reason.


----------



## commtrd

George called while ago and said they are starting my boat tomorrow. So here goes!


----------



## MariettaMike

commtrd said:


> George called while ago and said they are starting my boat tomorrow. So here goes!


Congrats.

When did you pay your deposit?


----------



## Guest

MariettaMike said:


> I am an engineer, and the things Chittum is doing with all carbon is NOT just a matter of materials, and build schedule. The combination of the hull, spray rails, and crowned cap are structurally superior to everyone else’s design.
> 
> The levees in rice fields are curved for a reason.


Oh, no doubt! Build design and reasons why I know and understand thoroughly! I also know that Hal didn’t design and engineer his boats but instead enlisted the help and knowledge from “smarter” individuals leading to such a great “design”! I am smart enough to know that when I want to push the limits “which I have full intensions of doing with 2.0!” To open my mind to others thoughts, knowledge, and opinions for a sec and take it in!


----------



## commtrd

MariettaMike said:


> Congrats.
> 
> When did you pay your deposit?


Deposit went in around Nov 1 2019. Stephen just called and he is in the keys. He said boat would take a couple months. Need to get a push pole lined up next. Very excited about this boat.


----------



## jmrodandgun

MariettaMike said:


> crowned cap


Makes yer coolers wobble


----------



## BCPD199

MariettaMike said:


> I am an engineer, and the things Chittum is doing with all carbon is NOT just a matter of materials, and build schedule. The combination of the hull, spray rails, and crowned cap are structurally superior to everyone else’s design.
> 
> The levees in rice fields are curved for a reason.


Thoughts on carbon fiber on a flat deck like a Marquesa? Asking for a friend.


----------



## Matts

commtrd said:


> Deposit went in around Nov 1 2019. Stephen just called and he is in the keys. He said boat would take a couple months. Need to get a push pole lined up next. Very excited about this boat.


Can't wait to see the new skiff.
All the best,
Matt


----------



## commtrd

Can see a trip to 9 Mile coming on! Want to explore the marsh by Cedar Bayou a lot more too. Basically just fish as much as possible. 
=)


----------



## Matts

commtrd said:


> Can see a trip to 9 Mile coming on! Want to explore the marsh by Cedar Bayou a lot more too. Basically just fish as much as possible.
> =)


Let’s do that! Cedar Bayou is about 2 hrs closer to home for me.


----------



## bryson

BCPD199 said:


> Thoughts on carbon fiber on a flat deck like a Marquesa? Asking for a friend.


I know this was directed at Mike, but I'll shoot. Crowned deck is stronger than a flat deck and resists buckling (oil-canning). Carbon is stiffer than e-glass and will probably feel better underfoot on any deck. If anything, I think the extra stiffness of carbon would be more noticeable on a flat deck than a curved one since it's likely to deflect more. 

I think @MariettaMike has some real world experience and could probably quantify the difference in "feel" better than I can.

If I were looking at a new skiff, I would think the biggest bang for your buck when using carbon would be in the hatches, followed closely by the deck.


----------



## mariscos

mariscos said:


> A lot of people here are speaking to the use of carbon in hulls and that is might not be advisable.
> 
> what about using it heavily on the cap, other topside like hatches and console? Again I don’t have the expertise interested to learn.


I think this is an important question. Would love to hear from some experts.


----------



## commtrd

Half Shell said:


> On the durability vs performance thing..... one of the things that makes dropping absurd amounts of money on boats is that the hull should last the remainder of your life and beyond with care. I've always been an early adopter of most things and even have $4000+ carbon fiber framed bicycles and $600 carbon blank fishing rods. I'm cautiously optimistic about electric cars and carbon fiber boats, but I be damned if I have the balls to drop $70K on a carbon fiber skiff or even a carbon transom today. I need about 20-30 years of proven track record before I would feel comfortable with that.
> 
> America's Cup racing boats is one thing. I need a hull that I am confident will expire long after me even after a few "oh shits".


Interesting and really pertinent points here. Agree except for needing 20-30 years of proof of concept. I am 60, likely don't have 30 years left to wait. Grabbing the brass ring now. Anyway, was visiting with a guide last week who borrowed Stephen's boat while his motor was being replaced. He tried to take the lower unit off, hit something. Transom completely un-affected. Full carbon build, Laguna Madre 2 non-tunnel. He was completely surprised the transom didn't get wrecked also. We did have a nice discussion about tunnel vs non-tunnel but outside scope of this little missive... 

Anyways, I am confident that there will be no issues with the full carbon build, and if there is, that would be satisfactorily resolved. These boats are built to be handed down as heirloom items. Hal said he will give me a full tutorial on proper application of carbon fiber when I go pick up the boat.


----------



## Guest

THE USE OF CARBON FIBER IN STRATEGIC PLACES AND OF THE CORRECT WEIGHTS CAN GREATLY REDUCE THE WEIGHT AND INCREASE STIFFNESS OF OF A PART!

Is a full carbon build necessary? Probably not but hey, it’s your hard earned $ and who am I to say how you spend it? 
The use of carbon fiber in areas such as the bottom side of a cap, hatches, cockpit floor, bulkheads, stringers, etc... or even the inner laminate of these one off skiffs we are all building will allow the use of a lighter weight fabric also reducing the amount of resin used in turn significantly reducing weight! It seems, a lot of folks are misunderstanding the properties of the fabrics. When using carbon, innegra, kevlar in place of fiberglass in a laminate you are not matching weight for weight on the materials instead you are matching material properties! In my opinion having repaired thousands of hulls I would choose Fiberglass over carbon for the hulls skin due to the way in which the two fail! I will be failure testing some basalt soon but believe from the data I’ve been reading that it may also be a better material than Carbon for a hull skin and maybe better than glass...
I am not a fan of Kevlar except in my favorite vest as it just sucks to repair! And I am not experienced enough with innegra to speak with any level of expertise/experience on it but my research shows it has a lot of the same mechanical properties as Kevlar with better bonding to the resin matrix. I’m not sure if it furs up when hit with a grinder though​


----------



## BCPD199

bryson said:


> Crowned deck is stronger than a flat deck and resists buckling (oil-canning). Carbon is stiffer than e-glass and will probably feel better underfoot on any deck. If anything, I think the extra stiffness of carbon would be more noticeable on a flat deck than a curved one since it's likely to deflect more.
> 
> I think @MariettaMike has some real world experience and could probably quantify the difference in "feel" better than I can.
> 
> If I were looking at a new skiff, I would think the biggest bang for your buck when using carbon would be in the hatches, followed closely by the deck.


Without a doubt, crowning adds strength. One just needs to look at a bridge or a flatbed semi trailer to observe that. I also agree with your next statement and that's why I thought staying with the standard hull layup with innegra; but, doing the deck and hatches with the carbon.


----------



## Stevie

After running both a full carbon 12 degree and borrowing a friend’s mostly glass 12 degree in Biscayne Bay over the last 6 months:

- The deck of the full carbon boat feels stiffer / stronger. The glass deck has some give. Both are epoxy built boats, so very strong.

- The full carbon boat overall is solid as a rock. You hardly feel the chop/ rip of the water in up to 2 foot seas.

- The glass boat flexes a lot more when running; you feel a lot more.

* A major difference in these 2 boats is the glass boat has stringers connecting the liner floor to the hull. The full carbon boat does not have stringers except in the rear hatch, so no transfer of hull vibrations to the cockpit.

- When launching off big waves, the carbon boat feels harsher.

** This point is very telling: my wife finds the full carbon boat to have a smoother ride than the glass boat. She doesn’t know the technical differences between them...


----------



## MariettaMike

commtrd said:


> Deposit went in around Nov 1 2019. Stephen just called and he is in the keys. He said boat would take a couple months. Need to get a push pole lined up next. Very excited about this boat.


That’s not that long.

But when’s the last time you caught one of these.











BCPD199 said:


> Thoughts on carbon fiber on a flat deck like a Marquesa? Asking for a friend.


It would be lighter, but still requires bulkheads for support.

Having a crowned cap, and hatches puts the materials in compression under load, and is structurally superior than flat and being put in tension under load.

Adding that the span on a Chittum is narrower they don’t need any bulkheads between the transom and liner like other builders have. Not sure about the bow.

FYI over on the MBG forum Skip Lyshon goes into detail about their carbon builds and the associated weight savings. The MOST interesting observation to me is their reluctance to abandon Kevlar in the hull.


----------



## SomaliPirate

The next great thing in skiffs, you heard it here first: Hydrogen infused sealed flotation foam. It will reduce draft by 75%. No smoking on deck though.


----------



## sotilloa1078

commtrd said:


> George called while ago and said they are starting my boat tomorrow. So here goes!


what model did you go with?


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## commtrd

Laguna Madre 2 with tunnel, full carbon build. Tohatsu 60 short shaft. =)


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## Pole Position

SomaliPirate said:


> The next great thing in skiffs, you heard it here first: Hydrogen infused sealed flotation foam. It will reduce draft by 75%. No smoking on deck though.


Just wait for the helium infused; it is my understanding you will have to add weight just to keep the prop in the water.


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## sotilloa1078

commtrd said:


> Laguna Madre 2 with tunnel, full carbon build. Tohatsu 60 short shaft. =)


sweet!!


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## new2theflats

Last week in Louisiana I fished out of an all carbon 12 degree Chittum Snake Bight in the marsh for two days. It certainly is an excellent boat.

I'm a big guy, 6' 5" and 290lbs. This boat was certainly corky, and I mean that in a good way. When I stepped off the dock and into the boat it's draft didn't change one iota. It was like I hadn't even stepped into the boat- that's just crazy (cool). 

Walking on the gunnels was equally impressive, Dropped no more than an inch and a half.

It was powered by a 115PROXS and was a pleasure to ride in. Biggest water we saw was one foot and it knifed through that almost imperceptibly. And opened up it is a fast boat.

Running in very light chop (the kind you like to run in cause you go faster) and turning the boat brought on a chatter from the hull, not unlike my light-weight all kevlar Bullet from back in the early 1990's when she was up on the pad in the same kind of water. It's a sound I love. Excellent boat from my two-day experience.

Will it hold up? I know kevlar will, I've no experience with carbon fiber so can't say.

Do I want an all carbon boat? If the result is like a Chittum you bet.

I'm not sure exactly what the layup will be on my boat yet, but I do know I will look to save grams wherever I can while still adding the features I desire. Grams become ounces and ounces become pounds. Will it really matter? I don't know, but it will be fun seeing and running the result.


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## mariscos

Did this in my glass boat today. Hard to tell just how shallow it was. I would say a legit 5-6” with 3 men, rigging fuel gear etc.


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## commtrd

Guys who would like to see more tips on utilizing carbon fiber should get into these videos that Mike Patey puts out on custom building his airplanes. Just absolutely fascinating stuff. The guy is a genius and even if not really interested in aviation, much can be learned from his custom build projects. I do hope to one day get my pilots license and own a plane as well, but the point is to learn from his innovative approach to custom building his carbon fiber parts for his airplanes. I can watch these videos for hours on end. Great stuff in there.


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## boyscout

Um, i know a little bit about bicycles, maybe more. i know nothing about boats! A couple of things that i believe should also be considered but not mentioned in this thread.
1 Coefficient of elasticity. 
2 As speed increases energy and stress increases exponentially. 

I am not a hydrodynamicist, but the faster you go the less forgiving any fluid is; and as we all know fluids can not be compressed. 

Also please understand that carbon fiber can be broken and may not be perceived until a catastrophic failure unless xrayed.

Any who, horses for courses. 
Flex isnt a bad thing as energy is not lost. 

and for you bicycle guys, enjoy your carbon frames.... but only use carbon bars if someone else makes you and will replace them if you even drop your bike. Trust me!

I really enjoyed reading this thread, all the best. 
t


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## JC Designs

boyscout said:


> Um, i know a little bit about bicycles, maybe more. i know nothing about boats! A couple of things that i believe should also be considered but not mentioned in this thread.
> 1 Coefficient of elasticity.
> 2 As speed increases energy and stress increases exponentially.
> 
> I am not a hydrodynamicist, but the faster you go the less forgiving any fluid is; and as we all know fluids can not be compressed.
> 
> Also please understand that carbon fiber can be broken and may not be perceived until a catastrophic failure unless xrayed.
> 
> Any who, horses for courses.
> Flex isnt a bad thing as energy is not lost.
> 
> and for you bicycle guys, enjoy your carbon frames.... but only use carbon bars if someone else makes you and will replace them if you even drop your bike. Trust me!
> 
> I really enjoyed reading this thread, all the best.
> t


Good stuff! Understand, while we talk about stiffness it is not just the stiffness we are wanting. It is the stiffness for a given amount of material. As you know, this is where carbon fiber shines bright. The trade off for us tends to be in puncture resistance. We use various cores that add exponential strength and stiffness when done properly and helps reduce the stresses created on the laminate by the forces of the compressed water at speeds. Also note, that these sandwich constructions absorb impact much much better than hollow tubes.


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## jasonrl23

boyscout said:


> Also please understand that carbon fiber can be broken and may not be perceived until a catastrophic failure unless xrayed.


One of the guys I learned glass work from changed my opinion on Carbon hulls.

He said that carbon was not made to take the repetitive beating from waves/chop. Like you said, tiny fractures go unnoticed. He was dead set against carbon in boats.

And as much as I love Mike Pateys videos sometimes he scares me with his carbon work. After doing around 600 resin infusion parts with 6781 S glass and 7781 E glass (@ 9 layers each with very clear epoxy), which means every mistake I made was visible in the final product, its nearly impossible to keep voids out of a layup. No doubt in my mind Mike is flying with carbon that has trapped air in it that is expanding and contracting depending on his altitude. Hopefully none of the trapped air is anywhere that will ever see serious stress.


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