# Leader length when throwing larger flies



## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Medium dumbbell eyes are going to be difficult on a leader approaching 12'.

What type of fish are you after, I don't use a bite leader at all on redfish just 12-14# tippet. Also keep in mind that line is really going to hurt you on distance, It is really approaching 9wt+. So combined you've got a really heavy fly, an overweighted line and what I think is a somewhat soft rod. All that together = bitch to cast. Lighten the fly, shorten the leader will help but that Rio line runs heavy, the Red taper runs really heavy, only option with that short of trimming would be to change the line.
Hope that helps.
Good luck.


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## CrappieFisherman (Mar 15, 2015)

I have the exact same rod, and have the exact same issue. I think this is one area where the less expensive rods struggle.

Basically, what happens is that as the lure extends to the full extent of the backcast, the fly line and rod flex and stretch a bit too much, and cause an internal spring effect in the cast. While the idea of the cast is to load the rod with energy, and send that down the line, this internal springiness actually fights against that.

To get around this, I have found two solutions, the first is to never allow the fly to stop. This is counter to the traditional cast, and is more of an oval motion, with the forward and backcast on two different planes. The other solution is to use line that loads with a shorter head. Both of these solutions greatly reduce line stretch, and therefore reduce the internal springy effect.


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## Jfack (Nov 2, 2014)

What depths are u fishing? With a full flouro leader you should get a small dumbbell fly down pretty easy. I don't throw larger than a small dumbbell on my 8wt BVK. Mostly throw xsmall or bead chain actually. If throwing med i use the 9wt. When i first started i made the mistake of tying all med dumbbell flies and I only had an 8wt and had a hard time with it. You can make it work by back casting kind of side arm, then coming more over on you're forward cast. 

Also, IMO some of those pre made leaders suck. What kind did you get? You can try out making your own leader. MANY recipes out there but i keep it simple with masons hard mono 4' 40, 3' 30, 2' 20 then like 1' of 15 fluro. I change the lengths up like maybe less 40 and 30 and then 2 ft fluro, etc. or dump the 40 and start from 30...


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Jfack said:


> What depths are u fishing? With a full flouro leader you should get a small dumbbell fly down pretty easy. I don't throw larger than a small dumbbell on my 8wt BVK. Mostly throw xsmall or bead chain actually. If throwing med i use the 9wt. When i first started i made the mistake of tying all med dumbbell flies and I only had an 8wt and had a hard time with it. You can make it work by back casting kind of side arm, then coming more over on you're forward cast.
> 
> Also, IMO some of those pre made leaders suck. What kind did you get? You can try out making your own leader. MANY recipes out there but i keep it simple with masons hard mono 4' 40, 3' 30, 2' 20 then like 1' of 15 fluro. I change the lengths up like maybe less 40 and 30 and then 2 ft fluro, etc. or dump the 40 and start from 30...


x2 agree on the size of the eyes, seems like the difference between small and medium is much bigger than the diff between xs and s


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Jfack said:


> What depths are u fishing? With a full flouro leader you should get a small dumbbell fly down pretty easy. I don't throw larger than a small dumbbell on my 8wt BVK. Mostly throw xsmall or bead chain actually. If throwing med i use the 9wt. When i first started i made the mistake of tying all med dumbbell flies and I only had an 8wt and had a hard time with it. You can make it work by back casting kind of side arm, then coming more over on you're forward cast.
> 
> Also, IMO some of those pre made leaders suck. What kind did you get? You can try out making your own leader. MANY recipes out there but i keep it simple with masons hard mono 4' 40, 3' 30, 2' 20 then like 1' of 15 fluro. I change the lengths up like maybe less 40 and 30 and then 2 ft fluro, etc. or dump the 40 and start from 30...


I'm sight casting to reds in less than 18". Most of what I tied had medium sized eyes because I wanted to make sure they rode hook side up. Maybe I'll re-tie with small eyes and smaller patterns. 

The leaders I've been using are rio's fluorocarbon tapered leaders. I started tying my own leaders a few months ago but at that time there was a lot of dead grass in the lagoon and I kept snagging it. I was using a 50-30-20. I think a combination of too long of a leader and too heavy a fly with a slower rod in the wind wasn't helping me at all.


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## Jfack (Nov 2, 2014)

mosquitolaGOON said:


> I'm sight casting to reds in less than 18". Most of what I tied had medium sized eyes because I wanted to make sure they rode hook side up. Maybe I'll re-tie with small eyes and smaller patterns.
> 
> The leaders I've been using are rio's fluorocarbon tapered leaders. I started tying my own leaders a few months ago but at that time there was a lot of dead grass in the lagoon and I kept snagging it. I was using a 50-30-20. I think a combination of too long of a leader and too heavy a fly with a slower rod in the wind wasn't helping me at all.


I've tried those leaders. They're ok but I think the masons turns flies over like a mother. Plus that long all fluoro leader prolly sinks a lot more than a mono leader with fluoro tip. 

Yesss go lighter and smaller flies. Took me a while to figure it all out tying my own flies. The greatest thing about fly fishing is being able to throw small flies that land extremely lightly for sight fishing reds. If you want the throw the med eyes maybe grab a 9wt rod down the road.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

It sounds like your main issues are an overly heavy line and a leader that is on the long side. What does the leader taper down to at its lightest lb rating?
I will throw medium bead chain depending on the pattern, they are somewhat big but they turn over on my 8wt, no problem.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Before messing with your leader configuration or flies, try a distinct pause on the back and forecasts to make sure the line has fully extended to enable to load the rod. Pretty easy for heavy flies to create a hinge effect in your casting.


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## Riverrambler (Dec 5, 2015)

I fish an 8wt TFO BVk and a 8wt Mangrove. I've had the same issues with both of them. I thought it was my poor casting form, moving from 2-3 weight rods to heavy salt water rods, until I changed fly line and leader. I went to a knotted leader, tried many different formulas to get one I liked and shortened it to a total of about 9 feet including tippet. I also changed fly line as I had the same issue with the Redfish Taper line. It's a great line for close in casting for but, I've found that it's a bit over-lined for my rods at distance and my casting bad habitats. Only explanation I could come up with was that, I was losing to much line speed at long distance due to the over-lined rod. Once I changed line, my frustrations went down and my distance improved greatly. I've been told that Wulff Bermuda triangle taper is a great line for long cast. I'm going to order some if, you are interested I can let you know how it does.


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## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

Assuming there isn't any casting gremlins this is my opinion.

Are you tying your 20lb fluoro to a piece of the knotless leader that is larger than 20lb. If not that's probably causing some of your problems if tying 20lb onto a leader that's 12lb.

Other would be making your own leaders. I throw fairly big flies on my 6wt with leaders in the 9-11ft range fairly regularly.

What I have found helps is starting with a heavier butt section typically use 50(4')-40(2')-20(2')-15(2-3')

The thicker/stiffer leader will help some with turnover.


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## Riverrambler (Dec 5, 2015)

You nailed it, my issue is definitely some casting gremlins. Going from really light #18-#22 nymphs and dries to big saltwater weight flies has been a little difficult.

However, I agree on the stiffer/thicker leader which, has helped me in both salt and small dry fly streams. That's one reason I like knotted vs. extruded leaders.

Your formula is very similar to min. It's really more about the diameter of the line and not the pound test for me: 60lb/0.80mm(2'),-50lb/0.70mm(2'), 40lb/0.60mm(1'), 30lb/0.55mm(1'), 20lb/0.45mm (1'), 0X/15.5lb/0.28 mm(1'-1.5'), but, its easier to explain in pound test. I like to limit the diameter reduction from line to line connections to around 0.10mm or about 0.02 inches as the knots seem to hold better. Additionally, if I want it to sink quicker, I will tie the tippet and/or leader out of all fluorocarbon.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Riverrambler said:


> I fish an 8wt TFO BVk and a 8wt Mangrove. I've had the same issues with both of them. I thought it was my poor casting form, moving from 2-3 weight rods to heavy salt water rods, until I changed fly line and leader. I went to a knotted leader, tried many different formulas to get one I liked and shortened it to a total of about 9 feet including tippet. I also changed fly line as I had the same issue with the Redfish Taper line. It's a great line for close in casting for but, I've found that it's a bit over-lined for my rods at distance and my casting bad habitats. Only explanation I could come up with was that, I was losing to much line speed at long distance due to the over-lined rod. Once I changed line, my frustrations went down and my distance improved greatly. I've been told that Wulff Bermuda triangle taper is a great line for long cast. I'm going to order some if, you are interested I can let you know how it does.


You're going to fall in love with the Wulff BTT, I currently have it on a 8'6" custom, the stuff is awesome, as my lines need replacing I will be going to that on all except my super short Redfish rod.


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## Jason (Feb 9, 2016)

LowHydrogen said:


> You're going to fall in love with the Wulff BTT, I currently have it on a 8'6" custom, the stuff is awesome, as my lines need replacing I will be going to that on all except my super short Redfish rod.


I just picked some up for the rod I'm building and love it with the test casting I've done so far!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

mosquitolaGOON said:


> I was having a difficult time on the fly yesterday, the wind was only blowing 5-8 and I was throwing a larger sized shrimp with medium dumbbell eyes. I was having difficulty turning the fly over and getting any distance whatsoever.
> 
> Equipment is an 8wt TFO pro2 with SA redfish line. I was using a knot less 9ft flouro leader with about 2.5ft of 20#flouro at the end of that. Am I overdoing it? Should I scale down the bite leader to a foot or so of 12-15#?


Without reading all the other replies (i'm sure they are good), the 2 things I see happening on the OP is that med size lead dumbbell eyes is too heavy for that rod. Try ex sm for an 8wt unless you are good, then sm is ok, if you really need that kind of depth. And if that is the case, I'd opt for an all FC leader system with ex sm lead eyes, over sm lead eyes with a mono or mason butt/tapered leader (which they float). Med is just too heavy for that rod unless you really open up your loops (or belgium cast it). But then again, you will be dealing with issues again if the winds pick up. In 18" water depth, extra small lead eyes, or bead chain eyes will get it down just fine with an all FC leader.

If you are using the SA Redfish for short loading and short casting, then ok. But if you are trying to reach further distances, then the rod will have a bit of trouble since the line is slightly heavy and the rod butt of that rod is more like a med fast rod. So if you are airing too much line on too many false cast, the rod will over load. If you are averaging 40 to 60-70ft cast, you may consider an SA general purpose saltwater tapered line or something similar, like a Rio General Purpose Saltwater, etc. Otherwise, try not to aerolize so much line, water load about 20-25ft+ of fly line SLOWLY on the pickup and only make 1 or 2 false cast, then shoot it back out there.

What was the rating for your knotless FC leader? If 10-16lb and you want the 20lb FC for bite leader, then cut the 20lb FC to 12-18". That will give you a total of 10-10.5ft, the max I recommend for an entry level to intermediate caster. Otherwise, if the knotless FC leader is rated 16-20lbs and that is sufficient, then use that until you cut it back and re-tie it (due to abrasion) down to about 8ft, then add a 2ft piece of 16-20lb FC tippet.

Ted Haas


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

texasag07 said:


> What I have found helps is starting with a heavier butt section typically use 50(4')-40(2')-20(2')-15(2-3')
> 
> The thicker/stiffer leader will help some with turnover.


I hope that is not Mason.


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## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

Backwater said:


> I hope that is not Mason.


No way,

I stopped messing with mason about the 3rd week I started fly fishing. I'm sure it has its place for some but not on my fly leader.


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

Why do you not like mason?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

texasag07 said:


> No way,
> 
> I stopped messing with mason about the 3rd week I started fly fishing. I'm sure it has its place for some but not on my fly leader.


Fluorocarbon, Mono?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

GG34 said:


> Why do you not like mason?


Mason in that lb test rating would be too thick for an 8wt. (texasag07's formula).


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## cougmantx (May 25, 2016)

I looked up the Wolfe BTT and it says it's best in temps above 70 degrees which would be great most of the year here in Texas. What do y'all recommend for colder days or do you even bother to change out your lines.


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## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

I wouldn't worry about getting a cold weather line for Texas flats fishing.


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## cougmantx (May 25, 2016)

Yeah, kinda what I thought. Never have but I thought I would through the question out there since lines have advanced so much.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

cougmantx said:


> I looked up the Wolfe BTT and it says it's best in temps above 70 degrees which would be great most of the year here in Texas. What do y'all recommend for colder days or do you even bother to change out your lines.


http://www.scientificanglers.com/product/mastery-redfish-cold/


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