# What do you fish...



## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

....and how does it compare to the rest?

My daily driving for my entire saltwater fishing career has been an Xi3 9 wt for stripers. When I read different reviews and opinions about rods it's hard for me to understand what fast means, what feel means, what noodle means, what lifting power means, etc.

Is it possible to start forming a comprehensive list that ranks these attributes? I know Telluride Anglers has a comparison of Sage rods which includes 1 - 10 ratings for stiffness, distance, touch, versatility, and feel.

It would be interesting to see how people compare the rods they use to other rods they have tried. The Method I have seems to be faster, and more accurate, with less feel, and less lifting power than the Xi3.

How would these rods compare to the Salt, X, Meridian, S4S, NRX, Asquith, Zephrus, Proaxis, Solar, Helios 2., etc? Details on quarry and fishing method would help paint the picture.


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## Tarp0nTime (Apr 7, 2017)

The faster a rod the the further down the blank it makes its arc. I think feel/soul is a subjective thing. Lifting power is more or less fish fighting capability, how much "backbone" the rod has. For me, out of all the mainstream Saltwater rods the NRX has the most feel and gives the most feedback. I have several meridians and a sage one in 8wt. Both of those rods seem to do the same thing for me which is they are highly accurate but dont transmit the same feel to my hand that the NRX'S do. I've read about the meridians being "fast with feel", i only agree to an extent. As usually the faster and or stiffer a rod gets, the less feel it has. I dont necessarily think the meridian has great "feel", it's just so accurate i think it compensates for it, and it does do feel better than a one or method in my opinion. I own a 12wt proaxis, it has ZERO feel, its very fast, casts very far, and has HUGE lifting power. I believe most saltwater dedicated rods will have good to great lifting power in the high end realm where as most "all water" rods I.E. Hardy Zenith, Sage ONE, Sage method typically lose a little power in favor of overall lightness. So the way i usually go about a rod purchase is that my rods in lower weight 6/7/8 are more about precision and castability (ONE, Method, Zenith) where as the higher line weights 9/10/11/12 are more geared toward lifting (NRX, Proaxis, Salt, Crosscurrent ).
I live in south florida so i routinely encounter small tarpon and big snook in close proximity, for that reason my 9wt NRX is kind've my "flex" rod. The rod I believe has the best combination of both attributes. I think it all depends on the caster.


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## Tarp0nTime (Apr 7, 2017)

Personally, I'd call it like this -

H2-
stiffness- 8
Distance- 7
Touch- 10
Versatility- 7
Feel-10

Salt-
stiffness- 9
Distance- 8
Touch- 7
Versatility- 9
Feel- 6

NRX-
stiffness- 8
Distance- 10
Touch- 8
Versatility- 10
Feel-9

Meridian-
stiffness- 9
Distance- 9
Touch- 10
Versatility- 10
Feel- 8

X-
stiffness- 8
Distance- 8
Touch- 9
Versatility- 7
Feel- 9

Proaxis-
stiffness- 10
Distance- 10
Touch- 3
Versatility- 8
Feel- 4

Zephrus-
stiffness- 8
Distance- 9
Touch- 8
Versatility- 8
Feel-7

S4S- never casted.

Asquith- never casted.

Solar- never casted.


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

Fast and slow action flex profile seem to be pretty commonly misunderstood, I've even encountered it with a major manufacturers customer service person. Slow action is full flex, all the way to the butt in soft older rods, it is characterized by a relatively stiff tip which drives the bend downward into the midsection. Fast action bends mostly in the top half of the shaft and has a soft tip and stiff butt. There's lots more to this but that's simple basics of it.
JC


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

The problem, and this has been discussed at length for years and the bottom line is that it will never change.

How a rod works for a given angler is all about the rod, line used, casting technique of the angler, and the fishing situation. What I "feel" may be in a different universe of how the same setup "feels" to somebody else. Any rating system is great....for the person who made the ratings. Its a place to start but thats about it.

The only real answer is to cast a rod with the line you plan to use. That is the only way to really know how it will work for you. Reading reviews and other guys thoughts are all fine and good but they mostly are just something to do while you are on the internet. If I had a dollar for every guy that got a rod based upon somebody else's review and ended up not liking it I would have a fair bit of cash.....lol

Here's a quick example. After I got home yesterday from redfishing, my buddy broke out his new 11wt. He just picked up a new Sage One, with an Abel 4, loaded with a RIO tarpon line. From what I heard and read I was open to the Sage One but not sure it would really fit my style. WRONG! This was a superb tool in my hands......now I gotta go get one for me. I was quite surprised how much I liked that rod.


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

ifsteve, this makes sense in some cases but I'm not sure in aggregate. I would think that the flex of the rod would be the same regardless of casting style.

Additionally, to make suggestions based on casting style might not be helpful for new guys. Personally, I would describe my casting style as flip flops and sweats. That's as detailed as I can get. Of course, I could try each of the ten rods with 3 different line pairings to get the best answer.

I just think a shoot out from anglers would be helpful instead of a shoot out from an outfitter. I can tell you what we use up in the NE for most fishing and was looking for insights of what's goain't on in other places.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Too many variables in the equation if you open it up to everybody for a shootout. I already ignore the shootout because there are simply too many line adjustments that can be made to get a rod to perform the way you want. I'll see them ding a rod for something and then when you look at the line they used it's pretty obvious what the issue was.

You would get plenty of guys that don't like a rod because it feels too stiff, or too floppy. There is no way of knowing where the issue is. Does the caster just suck? Are they trying to make 80ft cast with a redfish line? Did they pick the right line to start? Do they even understand the mechanics of a double haul? Were they casting with a 20mph wind at their back? Did they have a cold water line in 90 degree heat? Did the have a warm water line in cold weather that was coiling up?


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

Okay, I'm two to three weeks away from the striper migration. Fifeteen months out from a Belize trip. Doing everything I can to bide the time.

I'll motion to have this thread killed...any seconds?


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## Tarp0nTime (Apr 7, 2017)

brokeoff said:


> ifsteve, this makes sense in some cases but I'm not sure in aggregate. I would think that the flex of the rod would be the same regardless of casting style.
> 
> Additionally, to make suggestions based on casting style might not be helpful for new guys. Personally, I would describe my casting style as flip flops and sweats. That's as detailed as I can get. Of course, I could try each of the ten rods with 3 different line pairings to get the best answer.
> 
> I just think a shoot out from anglers would be helpful instead of a shoot out from an outfitter. I can tell you what we use up in the NE for most fishing and was looking for insights of what's goain't on in other places.


I think your questions are reasonable. The forum is for enjoyment. 100 people will have 100 different feelings about one fly rod, doesnt mean that the action or power changes dramatically from person to person.. sure, if you put a 9wt line on an 8wt H2 it will alter its speed/action. The only answers you're going to get on this thread are going to be subjective. I always think these kind of comparisons are fun, whats the harm?


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## bananabob (Jun 3, 2015)

Concerning those shootouts...Yellowstone Anglers George Anderson was NOT at all impressed with Scott's S4S. Next shootout...fantastic rod! What the heck? Called Scott myself to inquire as to any tweaking of the blanks. The answer...NO! Go figure.
As for me I had a Sage Xi2 10wt and didn't like it at all and sold it. Later had a Redington Vapen 10wt and really impressed with it's lightness and effortless rocket casting, but rarely fish a 10 and sold it.
As stated before it's all about what works for you.


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## Tarp0nTime (Apr 7, 2017)

bananabob said:


> Concerning those shootouts...Yellowstone Anglers George Anderson was NOT at all impressed with Scott's S4S. Next shootout...fantastic rod! What the heck? Called Scott myself to inquire as to any tweaking of the blanks. The answer...NO! Go figure.
> As for me I had a Sage Xi2 10wt and didn't like it at all and sold it. Later had a Redington Vapen 10wt and really impressed with it's lightness and effortless rocket casting, but rarely fish a 10 and sold it.
> As stated before it's all about what works for you.


I always thought that was really odd..one year the St. Croix legend Elite and S4S are limp "410 shotguns" the next year they're rocket launchers...one year the Xi3 is great, the next year he hates it..


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

Tarp0nTime said:


> I think your questions are reasonable. The forum is for enjoyment. 100 people will have 100 different feelings about one fly rod, doesnt mean that the action or power changes dramatically from person to person.. sure, if you put a 9wt line on an 8wt H2 it will alter its speed/action. The only answers you're going to get on this thread are going to be subjective. I always think these kind of comparisons are fun, whats the harm?


I do agree. It just seems like when I read a review from any fly fishing media or outfitter it goes like this: some rods have their issues, but this xyz rod allows you to shoot the whole line with ease and also nail those shots at your feet...in the dark. 

Also, it occurred to me that knowing what rods people use and quarry they chase should put other discussions into perspective. Up here lots of people recommended the Rio OBS but now I realize that's not great for a lot of what I do. Sometimes I'm looking for schoolie stripers going after little shrimp in ankle high glassy conditions.


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## Tarp0nTime (Apr 7, 2017)

brokeoff said:


> I do agree. It just seems like when I read a review from any fly fishing media or outfitter it goes like this: some rods have their issues, but this xyz rod allows you to shoot the whole line with ease and also nail those shots at your feet...in the dark.
> 
> Also, it occurred to me that knowing what rods people use and quarry they chase should put other discussions into perspective. Up here lots of people recommended the Rio OBS but now I realize that's not great for a lot of what I do. Sometimes I'm looking for schoolie stripers going after little shrimp in ankle high glassy conditions.


On a side note, i go on SOL forum from time to time and alot of the guys on there are very high on the Xi3. Wanted to mention that earlier on just slipped my mind.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Good thread. Keep it open.

Brokeoff, most stripper fly fishermen are fairly good casters. But like what ifsteve and el9surf stated, one could have some deep rooted bad casting habits that could skew your view on what a really good rod should feel like and one vs the other. Throw in the variable of a certain fly line you may love and felt good on one rod, might not be the ideal line for another rod, with changing conditions. ifsteve might not "love" that 11wt One he's intending to get, if he finds out that the ideal line to fish for those north Florida beach poons is dredging an intermediate sink line for them, in order to get them to eat. And so that line may not "feel" so good with that One, but may feel and cast better with another rod. So it depends.....

Here is the other mix or variable. I may love a certain rod in an 8wt and then hate it in a 10, or love it in a 8wt but be disappointing with it in a 6wt. (same rod, same fly line).

I know George Anderson (fished with him even). We've talk about his shootouts. Last one was using a bonefish line only. Boy!  If that tells you anything. I knew the Meridian would win the shootout, months before it took place, namely due to one person (lips sealed). The Shootout this year was moved to this fall coming up. I already know what rod will win. Do you want to know? Does it matter?

I think what really matters is what will "win" for you by casting it with the line you intend to use (or best 3 lines you are considering, which MOST fly shops will not oblige). On that note, like I've said multiple times, you can take a crap line on a great rod (or wrong line for the rod and situation) and cause it to feel like a crap rod. On the flip side, you can take a crap rod, with a great line and fits perfect for the rod and conditions, and cause that rod to feel great. Add the mix of either bad casting habits or great casting techniques, in either scenario and yet further change the results.

A scenario of that is, I happen to cast well (to some, but needs improvement in my own mind, still). Give me a cheap rod and a great fly line and I have no problems going fishing with the best of them, without hesitation. That's not to say, I don't like fishing with nice equipment, because I do. But I don't let that handicap me for being proficient in my casting performance.

Yes I know, I went waaay off topic with it. Also splitting hairs between rod model performances is not the original topic either tho.

TarpONTime did a great jop on comparison. But again, as ifsteve & el9surf mentioned, the scores change from one caster to another, depending on preferences, experiences and casting styles. The variables can be limitless. We've had this same discussion several years ago on this board. To set a rating standard is too tricky since you are relying on who is making those claims or statements. Then who is then voted on setting those "Non-Bias" standards and who is voted on as the panel of testers to average their "opinions" of ratings? Is it possible to set something like this up? Possibly, but the final outcome will only be an educated guesstimate, depending on who is on the panel and not 100% accurate and will still be disputed. But will it actually happen? Probably not. Knowing what constitutes a "stardard of rating" is like knowing how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop. The world may never know! 

Ted Haas


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## Tarp0nTime (Apr 7, 2017)

Backwater said:


> Good thread. Keep it open.
> 
> Brokeoff, most stripper fly fishermen are fairly good casters. But like what ifsteve and el9surf stated, one could have some deep rooted bad casting habits that could skew your view on what a really good rod should feel like and one vs the other. Throw in the variable of a certain fly line you may love and felt good on one rod, might not be the ideal line for another rod, with changing conditions. ifsteve might not "love" that 11wt One he's intending to get, if he finds out that the ideal line to fish for those north Florida beach poons is dredging an intermediate sink line for them, in order to get them to eat. And so that line may not "feel" so good with that One, but may feel and cast better with another rod. So it depends.....
> 
> ...


Wise words. I've read that George was being quoted as saying that testing that many rods with several lines would be too "complex", or something of that nature. I agree with you though, i think for most people most rods need an intimate rod/line/caster fine tuning. Hate bonefish line on my NRX for example, love Wulff TT. Brings up another important subject - The value of our local fly shops that allow us to show up and cast 7 different rods side by side eith our own lines and reels. Its really invaluable to us lucky enough to live anywhere near a good fly shop to not have to buy a 7-800 dollar stick sight unseen. Oh, and let me guess, the Asquith wins over the Meridian?


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

George does know what he is doing. But until he is wiling to do the tests with at least three lines per rod it is way too biased for me. Now that doesn't mean it isn't good information. It absolutely is!. You just have to recognize what the shootouts are and what they are not. Ted's point on the Sage One I cast is a great example. The fish I am chasing tend to ride high in the water column. Move slowly (well at least slow as tarpon go!) and can offer more than one good shot. A floater is the line to use in that circumstance. However, if I was fishing a scenario where an intermediate tip or even a full intermediate were the line of choice the One may not be the best rod for that situation. Which leads me to my bottom line. There is no "perfect" all around rod. So the best advice I can give is to do just like with a boat. There is no boat that is perfect for all fisheries so get the one that is the best for the majority of your fishing. Same with a fly rod. Unless you have a lot more money than most guys I know buy the rods that best suit the majority of fishing you do.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Funny thing about the shootout is that they rank Winston low. You can tell they just aren't fans of them for some reason. But every guide I've let cast them absolutely love them. Every friend I've let cast them love them. 

I love my NRX 9 weight. The thing is a sniper rifle. It is a little more accurate than my 9 wt Winston B2mx. However, I had an 8 wt NRX and didn't like it. That's because most of the fish I use an 8 for are reds. The NRX is just too fast for those close in fish. I took it on a bonefish trip and it was great at the long shots, but I hated it for reds so I sold it.

So it depends on what you're targeting too. Stripers and sinking head line is "chunk and duck" style casting. Different than delicate presentation to tailing bones in slicked off water. The former doesn't require pin point accuracy, while the latter does.


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## Tarp0nTime (Apr 7, 2017)

coconutgroves said:


> Funny thing about the shootout is that they rank Winston low. You can tell they just aren't fans of them for some reason. But every guide I've let cast them absolutely love them. Every friend I've let cast them love them.
> 
> I love my NRX 9 weight. The thing is a sniper rifle. It is a little more accurate than my 9 wt Winston B2mx. However, I had an 8 wt NRX and didn't like it. That's because most of the fish I use an 8 for are reds. The NRX is just too fast for those close in fish. I took it on a bonefish trip and it was great at the long shots, but I hated it for reds so I sold it.
> 
> So it depends on what you're targeting too. Stripers and sinking head line is "chunk and duck" style casting. Different than delicate presentation to tailing bones in slicked off water. The former doesn't require pin point accuracy, while the latter does.


Own any B3's? Interested in hearing opinions about them.


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

Unfortunately, I don't even try rods before I buy them. I was in a fly shop about ten years ago and the guy there said if it wasn't for steep discounts he got on a certain brand he would buy Sage rods. That planted the seed. Seven years later I wanted to get into the saltwater thing and what do you know...Xi3 is on SALE! I figured out that I could always get a Sage at half price so that is what I did.

When buying rods without casting them, then adding in the multiple line parings, things get a bit confusing.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Tarp0nTime said:


> Own any B3's? Interested in hearing opinions about them.


I have a 10wt B3sx that I mostly swing for tarpon. It's stiffer than the B2mx. I have cast the B3 Plus and found it to be more accurate, like dead precisely accurate. However, I have not yet upgraded. I sent several B2mx rods back to them and had new cork and guides put on them for a fee. It was like getting new rods. I love the service at Winston.


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