# What are the best skiff industry rumors?



## tom_in_orl

Please share ;D


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## Flyline

> Please share  ;D


share you with what??? uhhhh I'm keeping my mouth shut and wait for somebody to spit it out..........  ;D


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## marshman

make up as we go?? or actual "part-truth" rumors??


i heard.... theres a new skiff around south louisiana in the works...around 18/19 feet long and 5-ish foot beam...300-350 pound range...

more of a tuff little marsh and duck skiff than what yall call a poleing skiff....

not sure where i heard that, though.... : : :


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## marshman

but, im sure that has nothing to do with what this thread is about...


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## JoeWelbourn

In the past 2 months I have seen new (not public)  and very viable  competition to the Custom Gheenoe suite of boats. 

There are 4 new sub-17 foot microskiffs (all from different builders)  coming to market in the next few months. All are considered techinal poling skiffs.  All of which have been specifically designed to take market-share from Gheenoe.  How? First of all, original hull designs, not a Riverhawk or Peenoe play.  Secondly, better boat at comparable pricing:  Drier, more storage (hatched), not polyester chop-gun (better quality), better fit and finish, much quieter hull, and around the same price at a LT25/LT15.  I have the CAD drawings for 3 on my desk, I am cutting the plugs for 2.  

I know of 2 more in addition, but based on the drawings I saw,  I do not think they will be able to compete.

Hum,  I guess all good products eventually get copied, right Pugar and Dustin?

As the skiff turns....

Cheers,
Joe
Carbon Marine


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## costefishnt

> In the past 2 months I have seen new (not public)  and very viable  competition to the Custom Gheenoe suite of boats.
> 
> There are 4 new sub-17 foot microskiffs (all from different builders)  coming to market in the next few months. All are considered techinal poling skiffs.  All of which have been specifically designed to take market-share from Gheenoe.  How? First of all, original hull designs, not a Riverhawk or Peenoe play.  Secondly, better boat at comparable pricing:  Drier, more storage (hatched), not polyester chop-gun (better quality), better fit and finish, much quieter hull, and around the same price at a LT25/LT15.  I have the CAD drawings for 3 on my desk, I am cutting the plugs for 2.
> 
> I know of 2 more in addition, but based on the drawings I saw,  I do not think they will be able to compete.
> 
> Hum,  I guess all good products eventually get copied, right Pugar and Dustin?
> 
> As the skiff turns....
> 
> Cheers,
> Joe
> Carbon Marine


WOW!


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## aaronshore

I was told that Hells Bay actually splashed the Beavertail mold not the other way around.

Also that MHP really believes their new 18' will draw less than 10" with a 150 on the back. [smiley=stfu2.gif]


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## iMacattack

No comment... ;D

I can confirm that in a time to economic turmoil there are several companies out there who have decided to buck the big auto market trend of looking for public handouts and have taken true grit and determination to innovate their way to prosperity. They have my RESPECT! ;D

The unfortunate and sad truth though is that there will be far fewer companies by the end of this year from which to pick your next boat or boat accessory from. I read one industry report that indicated that up to 43% of the all marine related companies who's doors were open December of '08 will be closed December of '09. I can not confirm the validity of that number, but the cold truth is that there will be many closings and hard working Americans will loose their jobs. 

With that in mind false, malicious or vindictive rumors or innuendos that are counter productive to our current situation I will kill them off this thread. As many are completely baseless and only hurt those with which they are directed to and have no validity. False rumors are a cheep form of eDrama. 

Capt. Jan


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## JoeWelbourn

Update: One of my clients (a microskiff builder) called me this morning to discuss an unrelated topic. I mentioned this thread. He said I could release a few photos of one of the boats I mentioned above. I will have all the photos at the Frank Sargent show today through Sunday.




















As my other clients authorize, I will release more photos of the other skiffs mentioned above.

Summary details (approximate so do not kill me if the number vary 10% either way): 12 foot long, 4 feet wide, target hull weight approximately 150 lbs with cap and hatches. Power options: 15 to 25 HP tiller. Accessories options: carbon fiber poling platform, casting platform, and tiller handle extension.

He is ready to come to market and sell skiffs. Most likely co-branded under DitchCraft and Hellsbay. Rumor has it, it will be called a Threadfin.

As the Skiff turns....

Float Shallower,
Joe
Carbon Marine


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## JoeWelbourn

More skiff industry gossip. There will be a new 21 to 25 foot pushpole debut at the Frank Sargent show today: lighter and least expensive than Stiffy but just as stiff with a better finish and texture. It is sectional so it can be shipped UPS or FedEx. Go to the East Cape canoe booth to see and feel it.


Float Shallower,
Joe
Carbon Marine


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## Dustin

Well I have thought as to wether or not I wanted to reply to this message but as it appears Mr. Welbourn has taken a personal swing here at me, so I am compelled to reply.  

Since Mr. Welbourn has done this in a public forum I guess I will reply with all the information so that those reading can make their own decisions.

Last year just after the Tiller Pillar was made Mr. Welbourn and I along with the principle of our company met at Bass Pro Shops in Orlando to discuss wether or not our company could take on the production of the Tiller Pillar, at that time I indicated to Mr. Welbourn that we were also working on a Tiller Extension made from composites that would be in direct competition with his.  He had no issues with it and we worked forward to see if we wanted to work together.  We decided for many reasons not to work together and moved on.  We revealed last year some R&D models of our design at last years CG Boat Show. Which by the way we were invited to do.  We continued to work on the project and just recently CG came out with the product we and CG worked together on.  If Mr. Welbourn wishes to make accusations of copying he should do so privately but I am happy to produce the copyrighted drawings our design which date back to 2006.

Competition is good for the economy and I am not so concerned that I make public jabs at the competition. The Tiller Pillar is a fine product and is something Mr. Welbourn should be proud of but I don't care for jabs.

I do not speak for Custom Gheenoe but I am sure that Pugar does not mind the competition either. There have been others that have tried but there will always only be one original MicroSkiff in my humble opinion.  Custom Gheenoe.   

Dustin


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## Dustin

PS: I try to spend my time more constructively like producing quality products and serving others instead of spreading rumors.

:-?


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## marshman

ok, back on track....thats a cool little skiff...12 foot??  thats micro...looks like big boats being built in the background, so im guessing thats a builder thats already in existence...??

blazer boats(makers of bassboats and bayboats) are showing some new lil boats in their lineup...like 13 and 15 if i remember correctly..they call them skiffs...should be like some barebones type flats skiffs..i havent seen any pics...


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## BIGGHEENOE

Joe
What did I copy? Decks for my own boat or tiller extensions? I was contracted to build before you started yours

please let me know what hurt your little feelings


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## costefishnt

WOW!


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## Un-shore

I thought Joe was taliking about people copying Gheenoes. [smiley=1-doh.gif]


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## Un-shore

> ok, back on track....thats a cool little skiff...12 foot??  thats micro...


Thats microcosmic!


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## Neumie

> ok, back on track....thats a cool little skiff...12 foot??  thats micro...
> 
> 
> 
> Thats microcosmic!
Click to expand...

No joke! My kayak has 3 feet on that skiff. I do like though.


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## JRH

Has Hal Chittum's new skiff and his gang of followers put all the other skiff builders out of business yet?


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## costefishnt

WOW!


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## orlgheenoer

a 12 foot skiff.... using a bathtub for a mold?

;D


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## Un-shore

I was thinking of going bigger than my 13, but that lil skiff has got me rethinking.... :-?


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## orlgheenoer

SHHHHH

East Cape is making a battleship btw


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## Flyline

> SHHHHH
> 
> East Cape is making a battleship btw


STFU! U and me gotta flyfishing sometime and u own me punk!

We'll go on my gheynoe!


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## lemaymiami

Here's an item that's probably a bit more than a rumor... I don't believe that many small skiff builders are actually in production right now... I'm not talking about the small custom builders but actually the larger, very well known brands... Most are keeping their production lines open but only building to specific orders. That's a sad situation, if true, but probably accurately reflects market conditions.

Here's hoping that many survive, since the more builders the greater choices every buyer will have. I'd hate to be in the boat building business right now. Particularly larger outfits with significant overheads have to be hanging on by a very small margin. Small flexible outfits with a good following are in a better position. Let's hope that the current economics turn around. Watching the folks who run this country say one thing, then do another doesn't generate much confidence at all....


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## rkmurphy

> Here's an item that's probably a bit more than a rumor...  I don't believe that many small skiff builders are actually in production right now... I'm not talking about the small custom builders but actually the larger, very well known brands... Most are keeping their production lines open but only building to specific orders.  That's a sad situation, if true, but probably accurately reflects market conditions.
> 
> Here's hoping that many survive, since the more builders the greater choices every buyer will have.  I'd hate to be in the boat building business right now.  Particularly larger outfits with significant overheads have to be hanging on by a very small margin.  Small flexible outfits with a good following are in a better position.  Let's hope that the current economics turn around.  Watching the folks who run this country say one thing, then do another doesn't generate much confidence at all....


But you know what...it's how major manufacturing companies such as boats, vehicles, etc. should run.

It's called a "Just-in-Time" manufacturing system. Toyota is the most well known user of this system and they're not doing too bad right now (actually I believe they are the originator of the system). If Maverick/Hewes/Pathfinder would switch (which would be costly of course) then maybe they wouldn't be having issues right now.

A good side effect of JIT manufacturing is quality control is basically required to go up because these companies can't afford the returns/failures as they don't have inventories (VERY little to zero inventory, actually) to back them up. Not only does quality increase but JIT also allows the company to be more innovative. Traditional manufacturing companies must clear out current inventory before new/improved products can head to R+D. In JIT, R+D is constantly happening. Look at Ankona (not as simple as JIT but you get the point), the Copperhead is constantly improving into one of the baddest skiffs on the market, period.

A bad side effect is cost goes up to the customer. But, only slightly. That is a price I would be willing to pay to get a quality product.

It's simple supply push (GM, Ford, etc...working out for them?) vs demand pull (Toyota, Honda, Dell, etc).

Just thought I'd throw this out there...was feeling intellectual this morning...


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## lemaymiami

If the manufacturers aren't actually in production... I'll bet there's glass men, riggers, etc. who aren't working. That's not something anyone will want to admit, that they've let go or laid off skilled workers. Here's hoping there are very few lay-offs...


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## iMacattack

It's not a rumor Capt. I know several companies who are for all intense purposes closed and living on product in showrooms. 

Some will weather this better than others. Some have some capital that will get them through. While it's never a good thing to drain reserves it's something that many are doing. Some are keeping the smallest of lights on to try to make it through. I fear though some will not make it. Which is sad. 

Jan


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## TomFL

> Here's an item that's probably a bit more than a rumor...  I don't believe that many small skiff builders are actually in production right now... I'm not talking about the small custom builders but actually the larger, very well known brands... Most are keeping their production lines open but only building to specific orders.  That's a sad situation, if true, but probably accurately reflects market conditions.
> 
> Here's hoping that many survive, since the more builders the greater choices every buyer will have.  I'd hate to be in the boat building business right now.  Particularly larger outfits with significant overheads have to be hanging on by a very small margin.  Small flexible outfits with a good following are in a better position.  Let's hope that the current economics turn around.  Watching the folks who run this country say one thing, then do another doesn't generate much confidence at all....
> 
> 
> 
> But you know what...it's how major manufacturing companies such as boats, vehicles, etc. should run.
> 
> It's called a "Just-in-Time" manufacturing system.  Toyota is the most well known user of this system and they're not doing too bad right now (actually I believe they are the originator of the system).  If Maverick/Hewes/Pathfinder would switch (which would be costly of course) then maybe they wouldn't be having issues right now.
> 
> A good side effect of JIT manufacturing is quality control is basically required to go up because these companies can't afford the returns/failures as they don't have inventories (VERY little to zero inventory, actually) to back them up.  Not only does quality increase but JIT also allows the company to be more innovative.  Traditional manufacturing companies must clear out current inventory before new/improved products can head to R+D.  In JIT, R+D is constantly happening.  Look at Ankona (not as simple as JIT but you get the point), the Copperhead is constantly improving into one of the baddest skiffs on the market, period.
> 
> A bad side effect is cost goes up to the customer.  But, only slightly.  That is a price I would be willing to pay to get a quality product.
> 
> It's simple supply push (GM, Ford, etc...working out for them?) vs demand pull (Toyota, Honda, Dell, etc).
> 
> Just thought I'd throw this out there...was feeling intellectual this morning...
Click to expand...

This is all fine and good, but let's not forget the very basic problems here which is affecting not just the boat industry, but most companies today. 

The economy is in the you-know-what. There are a lot of people out there with their hands out, expecting to get saved by the government, and almost as many (myself included) who are pissed at the thought of having to pay handouts to people who made bad decisions while they've made level-headed, conservative decisions and remain safe. 

Nobody ever bailed me out when I made a bad decision in life. Ever. 

Others are on the sidelines expecting "the housing market to rebound" to levels never before seen in history, where the overwhelming majority of Americans can't afford them (see bailout sentence above). There will be no "rebound", as people won't make the same mistake twice. 

My point here? Things are out of whack. Houses doubled/tripled in price in a short amount of time. Boats did the same. Cars did the same as well. A mustang, probably a lot of people's first hot rod, is now a $30-$50k car. What 18 year old kid can afford that? There's probably a lof of forum members here who can't justify that expense for a car (need), let alone a boat (toy). $40 to $60k *easy* for a production flats boat? Come on, people!!   

Did your salary double or triple in the same amount of time? Did the rest of Americans' salaries? If not, do you think there needs to be a leveling off? 

Part of what fueled the price increased was available credit, and people thinking if they could afford a payment they could afford a boat. In the boat market specifically, 10, 15, 20 year boat loans. WTF?? People/industries got FAT on the gluttony with the *free* credit markets. What's going on now is that industries (especially boat builders or any other "disposable income" product manufacturer) are going to have a tough time surviving when their product is worth only 40-60% of what it was in the time of glut, as people can't get credit, are afraid to enter into a long-term contract in a time of uncertainty, or simply feel safe paying CASH, which of course smacks you in the face with what you can really afford to buy. 

The manufacturers who can bring products to market that sell in a time when *people are scared to spend money *will survive, along with those that lived lean in the good times and banked it. A fundamentally good product, loyal customer base along with excellent customer service will go a long way toward helping that cause.

There will always be those that remain, for the most part, unaffected by the economy (doctors/firemen/cops are examples) and have $$ to spend on toys. But even a good number of those people also bought houses during the boom, and along with the stock market with all their investments, have now watched their net worth take a dump, which doesn't leave them in a spending mood. 

What we need today is a resurrection of the original VW beetle of sorts. A car/boat/tv/whatever that does what is was designed to do and does it well, at a fair, affordable-to-the-masses price. Built to last, affordable to repair/maintain. We don't need a complete redesign every year or two for more flash and another buzzer, nor do we need the year-after-year dramatic price increases that go along with the redesign/retool. 

Sorry to bring this up again, but that new Yamaha 25 4-stroke and the press release that went along with it are prime examples of what this country doesn't need. It doesn't offer the user anything of value over the old model. A "new" 25 hp, designed for a small skiff, that is dramatically heavier than it's predecessor, with no real improvement in fuel economy, reliability or emissions, at a substantial cost increase over the old, discontinued model. After 4 years of intense R&D (and millions of $$) what are they bringing to the table over the old model? Folks, what are you spending that extra money on? A redesigned cowl and new stickers to show off the new pig on the back of your boat? Where's the beef? 

Gluttony and greed have gotten this country where it is today. Level-headedness and a return to basics will IMHO go a long way toward sterring us in the right direction. 

Be it the boat market, auto industry or others. 

Above is MHO, flame if you must. :-X

-T


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## snark

> Here's an item that's probably a bit more than a rumor...  I don't believe that many small skiff builders are actually in production right now... I'm not talking about the small custom builders but actually the larger, very well known brands... Most are keeping their production lines open but only building to specific orders.  That's a sad situation, if true, but probably accurately reflects market conditions.
> 
> Here's hoping that many survive, since the more builders the greater choices every buyer will have.  I'd hate to be in the boat building business right now.  Particularly larger outfits with significant overheads have to be hanging on by a very small margin.  Small flexible outfits with a good following are in a better position.  Let's hope that the current economics turn around.  Watching the folks who run this country say one thing, then do another doesn't generate much confidence at all....
> 
> 
> 
> But you know what...it's how major manufacturing companies such as boats, vehicles, etc. should run.
> 
> It's called a "Just-in-Time" manufacturing system.  Toyota is the most well known user of this system and they're not doing too bad right now (actually I believe they are the originator of the system).  If Maverick/Hewes/Pathfinder would switch (which would be costly of course) then maybe they wouldn't be having issues right now.
> 
> A good side effect of JIT manufacturing is quality control is basically required to go up because these companies can't afford the returns/failures as they don't have inventories (VERY little to zero inventory, actually) to back them up.  Not only does quality increase but JIT also allows the company to be more innovative.  Traditional manufacturing companies must clear out current inventory before new/improved products can head to R+D.  In JIT, R+D is constantly happening.  Look at Ankona (not as simple as JIT but you get the point), the Copperhead is constantly improving into one of the baddest skiffs on the market, period.
> 
> A bad side effect is cost goes up to the customer.  But, only slightly.  That is a price I would be willing to pay to get a quality product.
> 
> It's simple supply push (GM, Ford, etc...working out for them?) vs demand pull (Toyota, Honda, Dell, etc).
> 
> Just thought I'd throw this out there...was feeling intellectual this morning...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is all fine and good, but let's not forget the very basic problems here which is affecting not just the boat industry, but most companies today.
> 
> The economy is in the you-know-what. There are a lot of people out there with their hands out, expecting to get saved by the government, and almost as many (myself included) who are pissed at the thought of having to pay handouts to people who made bad decisions while they've made level-headed, conservative decisions and remain safe.
> 
> Nobody ever bailed me out when I made a bad decision in life. Ever.
> 
> Others are on the sidelines expecting "the housing market to rebound" to levels never before seen in history, where the overwhelming majority of Americans can't afford them (see bailout sentence above). There will be no "rebound", as people won't make the same mistake twice.
> 
> My point here? Things are out of whack. Houses doubled/tripled in price in a short amount of time. Boats did the same. Cars did the same as well. A mustang, probably a lot of people's first hot rod, is now a $30-$50k car. What 18 year old kid can afford that? There's probably a lof of forum members here who can't justify that expense for a car (need), let alone a boat (toy). $40 to $60k *easy* for a production flats boat? Come on, people!!
> 
> Did your salary double or triple in the same amount of time? Did the rest of Americans' salaries? If not, do you think there needs to be a leveling off?
> 
> Part of what fueled the price increased was available credit, and people thinking if they could afford a payment they could afford a boat. In the boat market specifically, 10, 15, 20 year boat loans. WTF?? People/industries got FAT on the gluttony with the *free* credit markets. What's going on now is that industries (especially boat builders or any other "disposable income" product manufacturer) are going to have a tough time surviving when their product is worth only 40-60% of what it was in the time of glut, as people can't get credit, are afraid to enter into a long-term contract in a time of uncertainty, or simply feel safe paying CASH, which of course smacks you in the face with what you can really afford to buy.
> 
> The manufacturers who can bring products to market that sell in a time when *people are scared to spend money *will survive, along with those that lived lean in the good times and banked it. A fundamentally good product, loyal customer base along with excellent customer service will go a long way toward helping that cause.
> 
> There will always be those that remain, for the most part, unaffected by the economy (doctors/firemen/cops are examples) and have $$ to spend on toys. But even a good number of those people also bought houses during the boom, and along with the stock market with all their investments, have now watched their net worth take a dump, which doesn't leave them in a spending mood.
> 
> What we need today is a resurrection of the original VW beetle of sorts. A car/boat/tv/whatever that does what is was designed to do and does it well, at a fair, affordable-to-the-masses price. Built to last, affordable to repair/maintain. We don't need a complete redesign every year or two for more flash and another buzzer, nor do we need the year-after-year dramatic price increases that go along with the redesign/retool.
> 
> Sorry to bring this up again, but that new Yamaha 25 4-stroke and the press release that went along with it are prime examples of what this country doesn't need. It doesn't offer the user anything of value over the old model. A "new" 25 hp, designed for a small skiff, that is dramatically heavier than it's predecessor, with no real improvement in fuel economy, reliability or emissions, at a substantial cost increase over the old, discontinued model. After 4 years of intense R&D (and millions of $$) what are they bringing to the table over the old model? Folks, what are you spending that extra money on? A redesigned cowl and new stickers to show off the new pig on the back of your boat? Where's the beef?
> 
> Gluttony and greed have gotten this country where it is today. Level-headedness and a return to basics will IMHO go a long way toward sterring us in the right direction.
> 
> Be it the boat market, auto industry or others.
> 
> Above is MHO, flame if you must.  :-X
> 
> -T
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct. The thing to remember is that behavior like this is like any other addiction. You don't start out wanting to be in debt up to your ears. But that $3,000 Kevlar layup option will save you 75 lbs. If the wife is unhappy about the price of the boat, get her the $8,000 countertops. Just refinance the house and take out $50,000. You'll just use the extra $39,000 to pay off the credit cards and the car. Or, since you'll be getting a raise in 3 months, just use that to drop a down payment on a new F250 that matches the boat.

There are builders out there that recognize the need for value in the skiff industry. There is a need for cutting edge technology and advanced construction techniques. That's how the industry advances. But not everyone needs to own those skiffs. The technology will trickle down, and probably get better at a lower price. The custom builders and manufacturers that offer real value and understand how to build a brand and their reputation are the ones who will weather this economic blowout.


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## FSUfisher

I agree with TomFL's statements. Greed and gluttony have gotten us here, and now it's time for a serious gut check. I went to the boat show in Tallahassee this weekend, and although it wasn't up to par from years past, there were a few signs that companies were willing to adapt to the strains of the economy. Unfortunately, for now it looks like they want to skimp on quality, design and features to give us that discount, but with the market still falling things will probably change.


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## CarlosNoe

I did not see the name of the builder. Wow 12 feet is very small about the size of one of mine Kayaks. I will go back up and read again to see if I find the name of the company. 

Looks kind of nice........


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## aaronshore

THIS IS NOT A RUMOR:

Hells Bay is going to be manufacturing the Ambush formerly done by Gordon Boatworks!!!! [smiley=1-thumbsup1.gif]


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## phishphood

Will it be under $40k?


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## aaronshore

I am curious about that as well.


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## JoeWelbourn

I have been cleared to discuss another newly designed microskiff that I have seen and worked on in private.  

Project Code: Fennoe

Length: 192 inches (15 feet)
Width: 36 inches (3 feet)
Deadrise at stern: 12 inches (1 foot)
Estimated weight: 125lbs (or less) with deck and hatches 
Hull shape: deep-V, transitioning to a flat-bottom with a most unique poling strake design.  A "Mini-Caimen" with the same hull features and lines for a fraction of the cost.
Estimated target price: $3000-$4000 without power
Construction: vacuum infusion on core foam with a unique "rigidizing design to the hull that makes it stiffer without adding extra weight.
Power: up to a 15HP, but very easy to paddle, troll, or pole as a primary power source.
Target Market: microskiffers seeking more quality and a quieter boat than overpriced, chop-gun fiberglass and cheap polyester resin.  Anyone considering a Custom Gheenoe, Riverhawk, Peenoe, or Copperhead or other entry-level boat, wait until you see, and ride in, this microskiff before you buy. 

East Cape has been working on this boat for awhile.  The architectural drawings are complete.  I have been asked by ECC to cut a test model, then a production plug.  

As a reminder for a few lost souls out there.  Meritocracy: a system wherein appointments are made and responsibilities are given based on demonstrated talent and ability (merit), rather than by wealth (plutocracy), family connections (nepotism), class privilege (oligarchy), friends (cronyism), seniority (gerontocracy), popularity (as in democracy) or other historical determinants of social position and political power. In a meritocracy, society rewards (by wealth, position, and social status) those who show talent and competence as demonstrated by past actions or by competition. 

"...as the skiff turns...."  Cheers.

Float Shallower,
Joe
Carbon Marine


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## Bob

> As a reminder for a few lost souls out there.  Meritocracy: a system wherein appointments are made and responsibilities are given based on demonstrated talent and ability (merit), rather than by wealth (plutocracy), family connections (nepotism), class privilege (oligarchy), friends (cronyism), seniority (gerontocracy), popularity (as in democracy) or other historical determinants of social position and political power. In a meritocracy, society rewards (by wealth, position, and social status) those who show talent and competence as demonstrated by past actions or by competition.
> 
> "...as the skiff turns...."  Cheers.
> 
> Float Shallower,
> Joe
> Carbon Marine


So now you're working in the Dilbert Zone too?


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## White_Fly

WOW!


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## beavis

> Deadrise at stern: 12 inches (1 foot)
> Estimated weight: 125lbs (or less) with deck and hatches
> Hull shape: deep-V, transitioning to a flat-bottom


sounds like the deep-V is at the stern ;D


DEADRISE
The design angle between the keel and horizontal. A vessel with a 0 degree deadrise has a flat bottom where as a a higher degree will indicate a deeper 'v' shaped hull.


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## tom_in_orl

> As a reminder for a few lost souls out there.  Meritocracy: a system wherein appointments are made and responsibilities are given based on demonstrated talent and ability (merit), rather than by wealth (plutocracy), family connections (nepotism), class privilege (oligarchy), friends (cronyism), seniority (gerontocracy), popularity (as in democracy) or other historical determinants of social position and political power. In a meritocracy, society rewards (by wealth, position, and social status) those who show talent and competence as demonstrated by past actions or by competition.


Joe, I just don't know what to make of this? Nor do I feel like I am listening to the same guy that I knew a few years back. The guy I knew was a lot more positive and strait forward. I am not sure how many of us you are referring to when you say "lost souls" but I sure don't like it. I hate responding in public to this. This would have been a PM if so many forum members couldn't have walk away thinking your comments were about them. I have to ask did you mean the entire Gheenoe community? A community that you were very much a part of not to long ago? Because that is what it sounded like to me.

BTW, I noticed that you left out character; attributes or features that distinguish an individual and can be both positive or negative. Arguably more important than talent or merit. Your posts in this thread have me concerned about your character. You must know that character or personal reputation affects peoples purchasing decisions. You must also know that it will affect their ability to recommend product to other possible customers? 

I never like to be the one who points these things out because I acknowledge that I am not perfect either. I try to do the right thing a majority of the time but I am always grateful when people can forgive me for my mistakes. I hope that your transgressions are short lived too and all of us can return to being civil in our posts. 

Respectfully,

Tom


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## TomFL

> I have been cleared to discuss another newly designed microskiff that I have seen and worked on in private.
> 
> Project Code: Fennoe
> 
> Length: 192 inches (15 feet)
> Width: 36 inches (3 feet)
> Deadrise at stern: 12 inches (1 foot)
> Estimated weight: 125lbs (or less) with deck and hatches
> Hull shape: deep-V, transitioning to a flat-bottom with a most unique poling strake design.  A "Mini-Caimen" with the same hull features and lines for a fraction of the cost.
> Estimated target price: $3000-$4000 without power
> Construction: vacuum infusion on core foam with a unique "rigidizing design to the hull that makes it stiffer without adding extra weight.
> Power: up to a 15HP, but very easy to paddle, troll, or pole as a primary power source.
> Target Market: microskiffers seeking more quality and a quieter boat than overpriced, chop-gun fiberglass and cheap polyester resin.  Anyone considering a Custom Gheenoe, Riverhawk, Peenoe, or Copperhead or other entry-level boat, wait until you see, and ride in, this microskiff before you buy.
> 
> East Cape has been working on this boat for awhile.  The architectural drawings are complete.  I have been asked by ECC to cut a test model, then a production plug.
> 
> As a reminder for a few lost souls out there.  Meritocracy: a system wherein appointments are made and responsibilities are given based on demonstrated talent and ability (merit), rather than by wealth (plutocracy), family connections (nepotism), class privilege (oligarchy), friends (cronyism), seniority (gerontocracy), popularity (as in democracy) or other historical determinants of social position and political power. In a meritocracy, society rewards (by wealth, position, and social status) those who show talent and competence as demonstrated by past actions or by competition.
> 
> "...as the skiff turns...."  Cheers.
> 
> Float Shallower,
> Joe
> Carbon Marine


I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with the vibe I'm getting from this post, *but with that aside*, there are some things I'd like to ask. First off, any new micro on the market interests me of course, and I'm glad to see new products coming down the pipe, especially in today's challenging market. 

Having said that, I'm wondering what the "niche" is for this hull and looking over the specs I've got questions. 

See my highlights above for specific areas of interest: 

First, what's with the name? Sounds a lot like XXXXnoe? Is this intentional? Is it intended to be an exact competition for them?

Second, it seems like with the specs posted the hull is basically a hi-sider, or made to compete directly with one???

Third, the specs mention some new "ridgidizing" construction techniques and building a stiffer and lighter weight hull than what's currently avialable, yet the stated weight is above that of even a standard hi-sider, and a more substantial jump over that of an NMZ. Is that correct?

Latstly, You mention the term "overpriced" when referring to the other hulls/builders, and this I'm really confused on so I gotta ask: With the specs you've listed that compare almost directly to a hi-sider (which street price is ~$850) exactly which boat are you referring to as overpriced, the hi-sider style or this new boat at 4-5 times the price of a highsider? Not sure if I'm following that one.  :-?


Granted, I know the quality, or more specifically the fit and finish, of  some of these lower priced hulls isn't anything to jump up and down about, but at that price point it's acceptable. Basically it does the job intended fine, so there's no reason for concern. But it seems like there's an awfully big void between $850 and $3-$4K that I'm not sure correcting those issues alone would be enough to bridge the gap. 

My $.02 and again, completely without prejudice.

-T


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## costefishnt

WOW!

Tom, a lot nicer than I would have said it. [smiley=1-thumbsup3.gif]


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## TomFL

> WOW!
> 
> Tom, a lot nicer than I would have said it. [smiley=1-thumbsup3.gif]


Yet another star for you 

-T


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## marshman

3000-4000

you can go ahead and call that 4000 as always is the case...


so, a 4000 dollar "high-tech", vacuum infused, gheenoe knock off??...

with an attitude to boot...


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## aaronshore

This whole post has turned out to be hogwash. Why would ECC put out a gheenoe style boat? They have the Gladesman and are currently putting alot of time into the Vantage. Until Kevin comes on here or his forum and spills the beans I thnk this is crap.


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## East_Cape

East Cape has been drawing a "new" micro for some time now and it'll have for now, my last name...
Many builders use their personal name for companies and models...
mine just happens to fit this boat. So, FENNOE it is!
Nothing personal against any builder other than we're building a new model that will be price-point w/good materials and fit'n finish AND have some cool new things not seen on a micro before...
First of all the price will be lower...more like 2k ( 4k if you want tabs,built-in tank etc. )
and include HUGE front and rear locking hatches and be a very light-weight craft. Max is 15hp but it will push this thing ALOT faster you might think. Also will be self-bailing and room for a live-well. 
Marc and I enjoy what we do and love taking our ideas and putting into place...
This project is not slated to come out till later in the year and if it does, it will be a VERY nice craft that.
It will NOT look like a Gheenoe...although the LT's have their place I'm sure many will like what we and other builders have to offer in the coming months.

More for less money is what we started the company on and I think if somebody can get a VERY nice micro that will offer what we're doing, then what's the problem?
Every builder is being put on notice to deliver a better product than EVER before and we certainly see a market share we know we can fit /offer the customer.
Hope this "clears" some issues and tight lines!
Kevin


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## Tom_W

"Every builder is being put on notice to deliver a better product than EVER before and we certainly see a market share we know we can fit /offer the customer."

I hope that even half of this is true. I admit that I have a hard time dumping down some serious cash for a boat that looks like @#$%.

A long story...

22 years ago I was offered use of some molds for a 12' raceboat that raced in a stock 25 HP class in NJ with the hopes that the people racing could get enough people to race each week.

So me (a mechanic) and my smuck brother (who worked in a body shop) spent a 5 or 6 nights after work laying up a hull and deck.

Did the whole thing ourselves with some advise from the owner from waxing the molds to spraying the red metalflake gel deck to laying out the glass and joining the two halves.

Took the boat out a few weeks ago with my son at lake Tarpon (it now belongs to a friend who put a 40 on it about 12 years ago) and it's still together and looking good. Which is amazing because we built the thing so light we thought we going to be determining where it would break first (one of the stipulations for getting to use the molds).

It actually got a second glance from a couple of guys there with their 2.5 EFI Allisons as I was staring at their pride and joys.

My point is the glass work that 2 idiots did after work looks better than a lot of the boats I've been looking to buy lately....which is why I still fish out of my kayaks and/or jon boat.

Yes there is time and material in making boats BUT it's just as easy to line the glass straight as crooked and if you spend 30 extra minutes to get the roving ends to lay down flat as the resin is curing it's not going to add thousands of dollars to the product.

I hope the days of "what kind of quality do you expect in a ___ thousand dollar boat" are over.

I see what quality can/is produced in some of the accessories for our boats and it's outstanding....but the boats themselves... well?

I have to admit that there are a couple of boats on my list that I have to check out still and maybe I'll find a gem or two to pick from.

A small skiff shouldn't have to cost more than 18 grand to look better than 2 smucks did after work on their first effort. 

I know alot of people don't care about small details and I know alot of people just want to say they spent 40k on a skiff but I'm somewhere in the middle. I want a boat that was layed up right that I can use and pass down to my grandkids after I'm done with it in 20-25 years. Boats really should last longer than the motors we put on them.

Move or delete if you have to.

Tom W


----------



## skinny_water

> I have been cleared to discuss another newly designed microskiff that I have seen and worked on in private.
> 
> Project Code: Fennoe
> 
> Length: 192 inches (15 feet)
> Width: 36 inches (3 feet)
> Deadrise at stern: 12 inches (1 foot)
> Estimated weight: 125lbs (or less) with deck and hatches
> Hull shape: deep-V, transitioning to a flat-bottom with a most unique poling strake design.  A "Mini-Caimen" with the same hull features and lines for a fraction of the cost.
> Estimated target price: $3000-$4000 without power
> Construction: vacuum infusion on core foam with a unique "rigidizing design to the hull that makes it stiffer without adding extra weight.
> Power: up to a 15HP, but very easy to paddle, troll, or pole as a primary power source.
> Target Market: microskiffers seeking more quality and a quieter boat than overpriced, chop-gun fiberglass and cheap polyester resin.  Anyone considering a Custom Gheenoe, Riverhawk, Peenoe, or Copperhead or other entry-level boat, wait until you see, and ride in, this microskiff before you buy.
> 
> East Cape has been working on this boat for awhile.  The architectural drawings are complete.  I have been asked by ECC to cut a test model, then a production plug.
> 
> As a reminder for a few lost souls out there.  Meritocracy: a system wherein appointments are made and responsibilities are given based on demonstrated talent and ability (merit), rather than by wealth (plutocracy), family connections (nepotism), class privilege (oligarchy), friends (cronyism), seniority (gerontocracy), popularity (as in democracy) or other historical determinants of social position and political power. In a meritocracy, society rewards (by wealth, position, and social status) those who show talent and competence as demonstrated by past actions or by competition.
> 
> "...as the skiff turns...."  Cheers.
> 
> Float Shallower,
> Joe
> Carbon Marine
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with the vibe I'm getting from this post, *but with that aside*, there are some things I'd like to ask. First off, any new micro on the market interests me of course, and I'm glad to see new products coming down the pipe, especially in today's challenging market.
> 
> Having said that, I'm wondering what the "niche" is for this hull and looking over the specs I've got questions.
> 
> See my highlights above for specific areas of interest:
> 
> First, what's with the name? Sounds a lot like XXXXnoe? Is this intentional? Is it intended to be an exact competition for them?
> 
> Second, it seems like with the specs posted the hull is basically a hi-sider, or made to compete directly with one???
> 
> Third, the specs mention some new "ridgidizing" construction techniques and building a stiffer and lighter weight hull than what's currently avialable, yet the stated weight is above that of even a standard hi-sider, and a more substantial jump over that of an NMZ. Is that correct?
> 
> Latstly, You mention the term "overpriced" when referring to the other hulls/builders, and this I'm really confused on so I gotta ask: With the specs you've listed that compare almost directly to a hi-sider (which street price is ~$850) exactly which boat are you referring to as overpriced, the hi-sider style or this new boat at 4-5 times the price of a highsider? Not sure if I'm following that one.  :-?
> 
> 
> Granted, I know the quality, or more specifically the fit and finish, of  some of these lower priced hulls isn't anything to jump up and down about, but at that price point it's acceptable. Basically it does the job intended fine, so there's no reason for concern. But it seems like there's an awfully big void between $850 and $3-$4K that I'm not sure correcting those issues alone would be enough to bridge the gap.
> 
> My $.02 and again, completely without prejudice.
> 
> -T
Click to expand...

Did everyone miss the part where it was going to be a Mini Caimen???


----------



## JoeWelbourn

Tom,

Good points and well taken. I can see why you were troubled by my broad implication. I was not attacking you or the entire "Gheenoe Army". I seem different because I have learned a lot from a few mistakes I made along the way. 

So if I offended you personally, I apologize. I have no bone to pick with you, or Curtis, or Gary, or Eric, or Clark, or Lone Ranger, or Tom C, or Tate, or Sophia, or Eddie or the countless other Gheenoe'r I have spend hours talking to and befriending. You all have been stand up and straight in my book. 

My point is simple: typically merit, not luck, not force, not deceit wins the day. So the tag at the end of my update was to remind a very, very small set of people that it is what you do with merit that gets you ahead in life for the long-run. 

It is no secret. There are a few bad apples in the bunch. My only regret is I should have heeded the warnings I got 2 years ago from several friends on the forums who said be careful who I work with. I live and I have learned.

My message on merit is for anyone that feels, or walks around in life thinking, it is accept to advance in life by means OTHER THAN wholesome merit. It is the process and the end-goal not the just the end-goal that is often measured and remembered.

I hope this puts you at ease. The Gheenoe family is so closed-knit it is difficult to shine a light on a few bad apples without accidently illuminating many other good people in the process. 

Float Shallower,
Joe


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## East_Cape

Thank you for pointing that out Skinny...
It seems alot missed that clue.

We've never splashed nor plan too.

Vantage has all our atten at the moment but later down the road the "FENNOE" will be next on the shop floor.


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## JRH

> Tom,
> 
> Good points and well taken.  I can see why you were troubled by my broad implication.  I was not attacking you or the entire "Gheenoe Army".  I seem different because I have learned a lot from a few mistakes I made along the way.
> 
> So if I offended you personally, I apologize.  I have no bone to pick with you, or Curtis, or Gary, or Eric, or Clark, or Lone Ranger, or Tom C, or Tate, or Sophia, or Eddie or the countless other Gheenoe'r I have spend hours talking to and befriending.  You all have been stand up and straight in my book.
> 
> My point is simple:  typically merit, not luck, not force, not deceit wins the day.  So the tag at the end of my update was to remind a very, very small set of people that it is what you do with merit  that gets you ahead in life for the long-run.
> 
> It is no secret.  There are a few bad apples in the bunch.  My only regret is I should have heeded the warnings I got 2 years ago from several friends on the forums who said be careful who I work with. I live and I have learned.
> 
> My message on merit is for anyone that feels, or walks around in life thinking, it is accept to advance in life by means OTHER THAN wholesome merit.  It is the process and the end-goal not the just the end-goal that is often measured and remembered.
> 
> I hope this puts you at ease.  The Gheenoe family is so closed-knit it is difficult to shine a light on a few bad apples without accidently illuminating many other good people in the process.
> 
> Float Shallower,
> Joe



Get over yourself. If you're that bitter, maybe you should talk to the "bad apples" yourself. The rest of us don't care.


----------



## costefishnt

> Tom,
> 
> Good points and well taken.  I can see why you were troubled by my broad implication.  I was not attacking you or the entire "Gheenoe Army".  I seem different because I have learned a lot from a few mistakes I made along the way.
> 
> So if I offended you personally, I apologize.  I have no bone to pick with you, or Curtis, or Gary, or Eric, or Clark, or Lone Ranger, or Tom C, or Tate, or Sophia, or Eddie or the countless other Gheenoe'r I have spend hours talking to and befriending.  You all have been stand up and straight in my book.
> 
> My point is simple:  typically merit, not luck, not force, not deceit wins the day.  So the tag at the end of my update was to remind a very, very small set of people that it is what you do with merit  that gets you ahead in life for the long-run.
> 
> It is no secret.  There are a few bad apples in the bunch.  My only regret is I should have heeded the warnings I got 2 years ago from several friends on the forums who said be careful who I work with. I live and I have learned.
> 
> My message on merit is for anyone that feels, or walks around in life thinking, it is accept to advance in life by means OTHER THAN wholesome merit.  It is the process and the end-goal not the just the end-goal that is often measured and remembered.
> 
> I hope this puts you at ease.  The Gheenoe family is so closed-knit it is difficult to shine a light on a few bad apples without accidently illuminating many other good people in the process.
> 
> Float Shallower,
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get over yourself.  If you're that bitter, maybe you should talk to the "bad apples" yourself.  The rest of us don't care.
Click to expand...

WOW! ;D


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## aaronshore

Looks Tippy ;D


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## madsnook

I am intrigued...what will be the weight capacity? Do you have any conceptualized drawings to share....c'mon, how bout a little cheese for the rats....

I'm done with big boats,big towing vehicles etc and being a fuel sucking pig...going on a gasoline diet for good. 

Will this micro have the ability to be paddled? Thanks-S


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## East_Cape

It will replace the G-man and IMHO was one of the earlier micro's that started the craze... with that said we won't share anything at this time as many builders lurk on this site and don't want to give the "rats" any cheese! LOL

It will be rated for two anglers and have MANY cool features not found on a micro of this size. Or at least to date. Yes on the paddle feature too as well as dry if you opt for power and above all more stable than the Gladesmen as that was the only gripe w/potiental owners.
Hope this helps and laslty.

WOW! 

Kevin


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## marshman

hmm...maybe ill be able to get my hands on a gladesmen once its obsolete.... ;D ;D

momma always say patience is a virtue... ;D ;D


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## East_Cape

Why would you want a G-man if the "FENNOE" is less and VERY cool stuff? Just curious and I'm sure the "FENNOE" will want you too...

P.S. How about sharing what your building?


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## marshman

mine is just a little marsh skiff for the ditches around here....basically a flat back pirogue on steroids....


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## marshman

p.s. ya never wanted something you cant get your hands on?? ;D ;D ;D


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## costefishnt

splashing my WOW....uncool.


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## East_Cape

I didn't splash your "WOW", I only made it better...LOL

~ Kevin


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## lemaymiami

As a guy who will have to fit a second skiff into a garage where it would be tough to fit a 16' skiff, you've got my attention with that new micro. Since my anglers who can afford to book a trip solo aren't young guys, stability will be important. I know that micro generally means not quite rock solid but every bit will help. Like I said, I'll be looking forward to what you come up with...


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## East_Cape

Thank you Bob! Marc and I got some cool things planned for it when we get around to it.
I'm just happy it's on the drawing board...


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## madsnook

How bout the Chickee?


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## East_Cape

No on the Chickee...
The reason was the way we built the mold. The shape of the canoe made the mold a two-piece and since we infuse...it's a PITA to build.
60 wing-nuts to open, then spray gel, then while it's drying we put back the wing-nuts and they gotta be tight as well. then place the tacky-tape on the seams to seal, then lay in the skin coat as a barrier etc...
Then there's the finish work after you open it up by sanding the flanges etc.
The Chickee was a personal project for Marc and I plus it was never made for production purposes. Hope you understand?
It is still to date the sharpest entry on a canoe that I've seen.


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## aaronshore

Kevin. Would it make a difference if you just hand-laid the chickee and left out the infusing?


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## East_Cape

We could do it but it would be heavy and still a PITA to build due to the split mold. Maybe we'll try it in a few months to see. 
p.s. got your e-mail and will give you a call bro. Yes we need to fish! LOL


----------



## paint it black

Definitely can't wait to see the FENNOE. Sounds like it's going to be a great little skiff.


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## costefishnt

> I didn't splash your "WOW", I only made it better...LOL
> 
> ~ Kevin



no, it is still just wow. no better. no worse. splashing my wow makes baby jesus sad.


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## East_Cape

Ok. Fair enough...you can have your WOW, I'll go for BAM!

So now you have WOW and I have BAM...isn't life great?

~ Kevin


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## orlgheenoer

WOW! I expected to see BAM! when I see you two in the same thread ;D

You guys have a short list of things in common...

1.your short ;D

haha JK kevin isnt really short ;D 

you guys should meet over beers sometime


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## Un-shore

Isn't bam taken? Yes, wow has been around forever but so has bam. It takes a noticable character to make a signature out of a word so wow is taken and so is bam. IMO

How about "supercalafrigginepletivesexplodin"?

Wait, I'll take that one. Find yer own!


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## aaronshore

Back from the dead.............................................................................................................



A heard a Copperhead was seen at Custom Gheenoe.


----------



## SLEEP_AND_FISH

> Update:  One of my clients (a microskiff builder) called me this morning to discuss an unrelated topic.  I mentioned this thread.  He said I could release a few photos of one of the boats I mentioned above.  I will have all the photos at the Frank Sargent show today through Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As my other clients authorize, I will release more photos of the other skiffs mentioned above.
> 
> Summary details (approximate so do not kill me if the number vary 10% either way): 12 foot long, 4 feet wide, target hull weight approximately 150 lbs with cap and hatches.  Power options: 15 to 25 HP tiller.  Accessories options: carbon fiber poling platform, casting platform, and tiller handle extension.
> 
> He is ready to come to market and sell skiffs.  Most likely co-branded under DitchCraft and Hellsbay.  Rumor has it, it will be called a Threadfin.
> 
> As the Skiff turns....
> 
> Float Shallower,
> Joe
> Carbon Marine




Hey Joe, now it's been over 3 months since you posted this tease picture above. Has your client decided to come out of the closet with their new skiff ?
Any update would be helpful. ;D


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## TomFL

Joe, that's a cool little micro. 

12' long is truly a micro. 

Rig it with a 25 and I can't imagine the the speed!

More pics/info when you get 'em please!

-T


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## tom_in_orl

> A heard a Copperhead was seen at Custom Gheenoe.


Confirmed


----------



## paint it black

I wonder what the price is going to be like.


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## iMacattack

photoshop


----------



## beavis

> A heard a Copperhead was seen at Custom Gheenoe.
Click to expand...


that copperhead looks like it has a TLDI on it. We need some details on that little bad boy.

NOW!!!!!!!
Confirmed


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## iMacattack

I think it was one of the EFI 25hp 4 strokes...


----------



## aaronshore

How'd it run and why was it at Custom Gheenoe? Somethin goin on?


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## tom_in_orl

Wow, one little rumor about a Cooperhead at Custom Gheenoe left more questions than answers ;D


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## iMacattack

There was a Copperhead sighting in Ft. Lauderdale today...


----------



## aaronshore

So. The Copperhead at Custom Gheenoe is more interesting. Ron could have come over to fish with you or something. Catch anything? ;D


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## iMacattack

Tease...


----------



## Guest

> So. The Copperhead at Custom Gheenoe is more interesting. Ron could have come over to fish with you or something. Catch anything? ;D


Not even close.


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## aaronshore

> So. The Copperhead at Custom Gheenoe is more interesting. Ron could have come over to fish with you or something. Catch anything? ;D
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close.
Click to expand...

As the skiff world turns...................


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## Brett

Can you smell what the Captain's cookin'?

                                             [smiley=StirPotChef.gif]


----------

