# What makes Chittums different



## Stevie

Lots of talk on various threads regarding the performance characteristics of Chittum. Many responses that mainline builders all use the same materials, so what’s the difference. There are many build threads for other fine companies showing their processes. Chittum owners rarely post in this way. The following IG posts from Chittum show their process, which is really different from other builders and results in an extremely light/ strong boat:

Gelcoat and transom infusion:


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http://instagr.am/p/Bu-Lv99FR7Z/


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http://instagr.am/p/Bu9ClxtlbSw/

Outer skin, core (which is beveled BTW), inner skin, flow media, epoxy infusion all in one shot, *this sequence of photos is probably the most remarkable in terms of Chittum’s process**:


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http://instagr.am/p/B1H1dygpkyn/


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http://instagr.am/p/B6oCOOFJR0r/

Another shot of core placement in the mold. Core is not scored in the case of a Mangrove which has 1/2” core. Less costly process and lighter boat for lower HPs


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http://instagr.am/p/BnomAp3nxzB/


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## loganlogan

🍿


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## Stevie

Part 2


A Snake Bight with 3/4” core, which is scored length wise, not criss cross, so the thicker core smooths out to the radius of the hull. Notice the rear running surface panels are not scored as that area is flat ... this is to avoid unnecessary resin absorption.


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http://instagr.am/p/BXjevlKAQRV/

A Snake Bight with a fiberglass and Kevlar hull preparing for infusion:


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http://instagr.am/p/BsoC-7Nh2sn/

A carbon hull after infusion, drain & bilge box installed preparing to the liner:


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http://instagr.am/p/BqQiDByhU6e/

Liner installed in the 1st LM2 (@Matts ). With all Chittums, there are no other bulkheads, except those of the liner. The liner doesn’t have sides.


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http://instagr.am/p/BoJ3NQaAmnx/
—————
Chittum offers 3 main build choices, all of which have been reviewed by a lamination engineer., suited to power:

Mangrove / LM2 for 50-60 hp;

Snake Bight for 70 hp or 90 2 stroke;

Snake Bight Performance for 90/115 hp 4 stroke & up.

Within these 3 classes, there are 3 main layup schedules:

10% carbon, which is transom & structural,

50% carbon liner & deck cap, and

Full carbon.

There are multiple other variations depending on the application and power needs.

If I could have only one boat on a comparable budget of other leading skiff makers— a 10% carbon 12 degree Mangrove would be a great choice... My experience running the 10% carbon Mangrove over a month in Holbox, MX : sub 7” draft; Level / dry boat. Very strong hull, capable of ocean running, shallow back country fishing and very easy poling.


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## finbully

Is this an ad?


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## mwolaver

I think it's an attempt to provide actual information on this manufacturer, from an actual owner. Not opinions on price and company ownership from people who are not owners. 

I have been to the factory and it is definitely impressive. Say what you want about this product, fact is that a large number of the best of the best now run these boats. And it is increasing. 

I can see why people buy these skiffs.


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## K3anderson

Stevie said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B1H1dygpkyn/
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B6oCOOFJR0r/


Whats in that can? Is that spray glue to hold down the cloth? What kind?


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## CKEAT

Thanks for sharing, always like to see the build pics!


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## Stevie

K3anderson said:


> Whats in that can? Is that spray glue to hold down the cloth? What kind?


You’re asking a non industry, non technical, hard core recreational angler...

Blv it’s spray which is used in their infusion process. You can see the name of it later in this post.



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http://instagr.am/p/B5_IPiRJzTg/


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## TheAdamsProject

K3anderson said:


> Whats in that can? Is that spray glue to hold down the cloth? What kind?


The spray can is an adhesive spray used to tack the core to the hull or the cloth to the core. Used by all manufactures. When the epoxy flows it actually dissolves the adhesive so there are not spot on the hull. Most of these can cans have a slight color additive so they can see exactly how much they are applying, as putting on too much can not be good.


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## JC Designs

TheAdamsProject said:


> The spray can is an adhesive spray used to tack the core to the hull or the cloth to the core. Used by all manufactures. When the epoxy flows it actually dissolves the adhesive so there are not spot on the hull. Most of these can cans have a slight color additive so they can see exactly how much they are applying, as putting on too much can not be good.


Exactly! It’s just used to hold everything in place until vacuum is applied.


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## fpflats

I've seen these up close, impressive but these photos don't answer a lingering question I've had for some time. Where's the flotation foam to meet USCG requirements?


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## JC Designs

fpflats said:


> I've seen these up close, impressive but these photos don't answer a lingering question I've had for some time. Where's the flotation foam to meet USCG requirements?


The majority if not all is in the core. 😎


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## fpflats

JC Designs said:


> The majority if not all is in the core. 😎


You build boats, a fully 3/4 cored hull won't meet USCG requirements. A full 4 x 8 sheet only yields a possible 2 cu/ft or less than 120 lbs flotation. Plus it has to have level flotation, so there should be more in the back part of the boat to offset engine weight.


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## Stevie

There’s flotation foam in the spray rails, see the 2nd photo for more detail... they add it in the bow sometimes on heavier boats with bigger fuel tanks.


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http://instagr.am/p/B5GctTepQnR/


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## JC Designs

fpflats said:


> You build boats, a fully 3/4 cored hull won't meet USCG requirements. A full 4 x 8 sheet only yields a possible 2 cu/ft or less than 120 lbs flotation. Plus it has to have level flotation, so there should be more in the back part of the boat to offset engine weight.


You are correct, but forgetting about the core in the deck, liner/floor, etc... and most builders do not account for the neutral buoyancy factor. There are between 7 & 10 full sheets that go into some hulls before all is said and done. I can’t speak for Chittum, but that adds up pretty fast. As long as the boat can sit level at or above the water’s surface with motor, persons and gear weight that is on the placard... that is all that matters. Also keep in mind that many of these lightweight skiffs also use lightweight foam as the transom core! it is a higher density than the rest in most cases bug still weighs much less than the water it is displacing.

When calculating for this, and weight is as big of a factor as in the case with most skiffs... One must keep his pencil sharp and calculate in every oz of material added.


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## JC Designs

I also believe there is an exemption clause that allows certain builders to not follow the level flotation rule. It’s deep in the fine print and probably takes an attorney to pull off but I’m pretty sure Hal has that take care of if this is the case. Then there is the calculated risk end of things. In most cases if one of these skiffs goes down, it sits on the bottom with 4-6” of gunnel sticking out lol! 😂


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## fpflats

I appreciate the replies and the info, really do. I understand the details but JC is right, the devil is in the details. Sabine skiffs for instance clearly states they have a shallow water exemption from USCG, whatever the heck that is. Given that, I just don't see how the skiff will meet the flotation requirements. As JC says, most skiffs will just sit on the bottom with the bit of the bow out (which is what I experienced once on a bud's skiff). Thus my concern. 

There was a thread on here a good while ago about a skiff "sinking" on the moquito lagoon because of a know problem with the garboard drain. The OP was chastised for even taken the skiff out with a known problem, but you should be able to leave the plug out and not sink. This was a well known skiff too.

Regardless, you have to hand it to Chittum for what they are doing. At least they are really pushing the envelope where as other "well regarded" folks are serving up modified "leftovers" of 20 year old designs. I like Thanksgivings leftovers, but if I'm plunking down some serious coin......


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## Stevie

My experience over 3 years, 2 builds and 2 demo purchases, Chittum does absolutely everything by the book. Could cite specific examples; will leave it at that.

Started this thread because 1) Have learned so much from MS reading old threads, 2) MS community has been great to be a part of on many levels 3) there’s really very little understanding about Chittum in terms of their process and innovation. Am writing this as a passionate recreational angler and skiff owner... have no commercial angle except the resale value of 2 boats.

There’s an intimidation factor about price and dealings with Chittum that anyone buying a top tier skiff should get over by contacting Hal or George directly. They have given back to the community in their own way: donating a boat to IGFA auction for the past 2 years... giving scrap core to various home builders and Jimmy’s @Backcountry 16 ’s replacement build

Lastly I put my first order in before I was a member of MS and heard about the drama in the skiff world. Even if I had, I’m more worried about the specific performance abilities of a boat, than the drama, stigma or spin... Hal, George, Mike & Shane have been great to deal with.


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## JC Designs

fpflats said:


> I appreciate the replies and the info, really do. I understand the details but JC is right, the devil is in the details. Sabine skiffs for instance clearly states they have a shallow water exemption from USCG, whatever the heck that is. Given that, I just don't see how the skiff will meet the flotation requirements. As JC says, most skiffs will just sit on the bottom with the bit of the bow out (which is what I experienced once on a bud's skiff). Thus my concern.
> 
> There was a thread on here a good while ago about a skiff "sinking" on the moquito lagoon because of a know problem with the garboard drain. The OP was chastised for even taken the skiff out with a known problem, but you should be able to leave the plug out and not sink. This was a well known skiff too.
> 
> Regardless, you have to hand it to Chittum for what they are doing. At least they are really pushing the envelope where as other "well regarded" folks are serving up modified "leftovers" of 20 year old designs. I like Thanksgivings leftovers, but if I'm plunking down some serious coin......


I’m not a fan boy, but couldn’t have said it better. I will add, those 20yr old designs sure changed the industry in a good way but no reason to stop pursuing better, lighter, faster! The reason those old designs haven’t been updated is because they still sell, for now. Hal, East Cape, and several others including myself have been thinking outside the box and some great designs and skiffs are coming in to the scene. The pressure will be intense in a year or so should the economy hold up! That’s my plan anyway!


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## JC Designs

Stevie said:


> My experience over 3 years, 2 builds and 2 demo purchases, Chittum does absolutely everything by the book. Could cite specific examples; will leave it at that.
> 
> Started this thread because 1) Have learned so much from MS reading old threads, 2) MS community has been great to be a part of on many levels 3) there’s really very little understanding about Chittum in terms of their process and innovation. Am writing this as a passionate recreational angler and skiff owner... have no commercial angle except the resale value of 2 boats.
> 
> There’s an intimidation factor about price and dealings with Chittum that anyone buying a top tier skiff should get over by contacting Hal or George directly. They have given back to the community in their own way: donating a boat to IGFA auction for the past 2 years... giving scrap core to various home builders and Jimmy’s @Backcountry 16 ’s replacement build
> 
> Lastly I put my first order in before I was a member of MS and heard about the drama in the skiff world. Even if I had, I’m more worried about the specific performance abilities of a boat, than the drama, stigma or spin... Hal, George, Mike & Shane have been great to deal with.


Agree, Hal could have just said pound sand when approached about the scrap core! Most other commercial builders would have. Gemlux told me to pound sand “in different words” when I asked about some hardware for it! Guess what, I won’t be purchasing from them anymore, don’t care how much I like their stuff. Might contact Edson about some custom stuff, who knows? Point is, Hal could have done the same but didn’t! He donated way more in scrap core than the cost of a couple hinges and latches! BTW, I have some Gemlux latches I might sell cheap!


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## jmrodandgun

#patentedsprayrails 

Pretty boats for sure. Parked mine next to one not too long ago. We chatted a little, talked a bit of shit, I threw peanut shells in his boat, then we shared some tall beers. Good times. George is a square.


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## JC Designs

JC Designs said:


> I’m not a fan boy, but couldn’t have said it better. I will add, those 20yr old designs sure changed the industry in a good way but no reason to stop pursuing better, lighter, faster! The reason those old designs haven’t been updated is because they still sell, for now. Hal, East Cape, and several others including myself have been thinking outside the box and some great designs and skiffs are coming in to the scene. The pressure will be intense in a year or so should the economy hold up! That’s my plan anyway!


I know this thread is about Chittums, but I forgot @Skiffmizer and the 10wt! I guess my point is even @Chris Morejohn knows those old designs while proven winners are outdated and could be improved on! Look at some of his latest designs for example. Look at my design, you’ll be hearing from @Think-like-a-Snook soon enough about it. I actually impressed myself with that one! There are those of us that use boats and believe it can’t get any better, and there are those of us that say here... hold my damn beer! @Chris Morejohn was even skeptical of my design thinking and I’m sure he’d tell ya the same, but believe me when I say it works frickin’ awesome! I am a boat/skiff lover, it is in my blood and I personally can’t wait to see what the Chittum team comes up with next! Maybe something in a 26 ft’er? 🤔


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## Finatic7

Coming from a newbie who's been considering a nice skiff and has been on 6 wet tests...I can say definitively that George at Chittum made the most time to educate me and show me the ropes in their boat. I think we were out on the water for nearly 3 hours. He essentially gave me a poling lesson for an hour and had me pushing the boat under power for an hour or so to show me how to handle the chop. In my opinion, this definitely "Made them different". Actually, after some negative things that I'd read prior to visiting the Chittum factory, I was blown away...not to mention that the Mangrove was by far the easiest to pole of all. At the other end of the spectrum, one of the other high end companies took me to a small lake for no more than 20 minutes and wasn't interested at all in really helping. Even though I'm not ready to spend the $60k+, I'm a huge fan from that experience.


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## redchaser

Thanks for posting this Stevie. I am hopefully in my "forever skiff" and don't see a scenario where I would be in the market for a Chittum (but never say never right?), but I still enjoy seeing threads like this that not only show pictures of the build process but give some of the reasoning behind it. Most of us here like talking boats any chance we get,it's cool to have a broader understanding of different boats, makers and processes, and if for some reason I did end up back in the market for a skiff (like winning the powerball) the better understanding I have about different processes, the better choices I'll make.


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## K3anderson

TheAdamsProject said:


> The spray can is an adhesive spray used to tack the core to the hull or the cloth to the core. Used by all manufactures. When the epoxy flows it actually dissolves the adhesive so there are not spot on the hull. Most of these can cans have a slight color additive so they can see exactly how much they are applying, as putting on too much can not be good.


I assumed. I'm wanting to know what its called so I can get it. I doubt its super77. But if it dissolves, it would be better than the "silica trick"


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## JC Designs

K3anderson said:


> I assumed. I'm wanting to know what its called so I can get it. I doubt its super77. But if it dissolves, it would be better than the "silica trick"





https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Hi-Tack-Composite-Spray-Adhesive-71/?N=5002385+3290539321&rt=rud


There are other brands, but this is what you are looking for. The silica trick is for a wet lay up. This is for holding dry goods in place until vacuum is applied.


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## K3anderson

I'd like to see a 17.8 infused with epoxy resin and 1/2" core.


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## SomaliPirate

I just miss George's slick marketing and PR campaigns here back in the day. Now those were some serious flame wars. And @JC Designs if those are swagged up 3 hole friction hinges, I'll make you an offer.


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## sjrobin

Hal and George are not transparent about the build process and they have a history of over promise and under deliver. Not many, if any buyers post pics of the build process of their hulls. There will be lots of variability in the build quality with all the different lay up options offered. Why? Proprietary process? I think the design build material suits the 12 degree much better than the flat bottom for serious use. Also, Chittum skiff owners, or any other brand users, will not be forthcoming about the negative experiences with the brands they are dropping serious coin on. I think the jury is still out on longterm durability and customer service, warranty issues. What is the hull warranty? Does it matter?


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## JC Designs

SomaliPirate said:


> I just miss George's slick marketing and PR campaigns here back in the day. Now those were some serious flame wars. And @JC Designs if those are swagged up 3 hole friction hinges, I'll make you an offer.


They aren’t, the hinges are standard 3 hole the latches are locking compression latches all keyed alike. Give me a call later though and I’ll give ya some intell!


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## SomaliPirate

JC Designs said:


> They aren’t, the hinges are standard 3 hole the latches are locking compression latches all keyed alike. Give me a call later though and I’ll give ya some intell!


Will do!


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## kylet

I mean, when it comes down to it, it’s a boat.


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## jsnipes

kylet said:


> I mean, when it comes down to it, it’s a boat.


which is why we have an entire forum dedicated to boats. they are massively important!


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## Finatic7

sjrobin said:


> Hal and George are not transparent about the build process and they have a history of over promise and under deliver. Not many, if any buyers post pics of the build process of their hulls. There will be lots of variability in the build quality with all the different lay up options offered. Why? Proprietary process? I think the design build material suits the 12 degree much better than the flat bottom for serious use. Also, Chittum skiff owners, or any other brand users, will not be forthcoming about the negative experiences with the brands they are dropping serious coin on. I think the jury is still out on longterm durability and customer service, warranty issues. What is the hull warranty? Does it matter?


10 year hull warranty according to the pricing document that they sent to me.


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## kylet

jsnipes said:


> which is why we have an entire forum dedicated to boats. they are massively important!


Not really following your logic. I doubt we have an “entire forum” dedicated to boats because it’s a boat.


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## Mike Haydon

I have news for you all! Any boat under 20 feet isnt held to the coast guard standards for flotation foam.


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## trekker

Mike Haydon said:


> I have news for you all! Any boat under 20 feet isnt held to the coast guard standards for flotation foam.


Elaborate ?


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## devrep

chittum is a tree that grows in my home state. they used to process the bark to make laxative. true story.


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## JC Designs

Mike Haydon said:


> I have news for you all! Any boat under 20 feet isnt held to the coast guard standards for flotation foam.





trekker said:


> Elaborate ?


Yes, yes... please do.

Well, I’ll go ahead and name a few that are above and beyond the coast guard standards for flotation foam...

Carolina skiff J series, Sundance skiff, Boston whaler, and old sears hull I had when I was a kid, pro lines... shall we continue?

Donzi, sunbird, ranger, triton, stratos...
😎


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## Jason M

The other thing that separates beyond the build process is the hull footprint in the water. Honestly the build process is a secondary consideration for me. How the fish was my primary consideration. They are dead quite and push less displacement wake than other similar sized/comparable skiffs. You do not hear hull slap when you are quartering or staked out with the stern into the waves. It is truly amazing.

When you run your hand over the entry you can feel the design in the hull and how it is designed to make the boat as quiet as possible. There is a little wave at the entry that you do not necessarily notice right away.

I have one complaint but I think that is owner error so far. I am still trying to figure out the occasional misty spray that I get in a strong quartering wind. I was not able to do the full hands on with George as the day I picked it up was the day the state closed so I am still figuring out the ins and outs of running the skiff. My old skiff was like driving a minivan compared to the Chittum. 

For fishing Tampa Bay and anywhere where you deal with big confused sea like Charlotte Harbor or Key West I cannot imagine a better skiff. If I was fishing the Lagoon or Choko primarily my opinion may differ.


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## Tx_Whipray

Man, if you guys think Chittums are expensive you should go price wake surfing boats. My neighbor just bought a new Air Nautique and it cost more than my first house.


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## Viking1

I may never own a high end skiff but I do enjoy learning more about the thought process and technology of how these boats are built. Thanks to the OP for the pics and information. If you are in the market for one of these skiffs visit one of the shops and see how they are built it is very educational. I've been to Hell's Bay and East Cape and it was time well spent.


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## JC Designs

Jason M said:


> The other thing that separates beyond the build process is the hull footprint in the water. Honestly the build process is a secondary consideration for me. How the fish was my primary consideration. They are dead quite and push less displacement wake than other similar sized/comparable skiffs. You do not hear hull slap when you are quartering or staked out with the stern into the waves. It is truly amazing.
> 
> When you run your hand over the entry you can feel the design in the hull and how it is designed to make the boat as quiet as possible. There is a little wave at the entry that you do not necessarily notice right away.
> 
> I have one complaint but I think that is owner error so far. I am still trying to figure out the occasional misty spray that I get in a strong quartering wind. I was not able to do the full hands on with George as the day I picked it up was the day the state closed so I am still figuring out the ins and outs of running the skiff. My old skiff was like driving a minivan compared to the Chittum.
> 
> For fishing Tampa Bay and anywhere where you deal with big confused sea like Charlotte Harbor or Key West I cannot imagine a better skiff. If I was fishing the Lagoon or Choko primarily my opinion may differ.


I am hoping you have trim tabs! If so, use them to list the windward side up a little and that should allow the spray rail to do it’s job! The driest of the driest can still get moist in a quartering sea with a little wind! And don’t let anyone tell you otherwise!


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## Mike Haydon

It is all different by where someone can sit or stand. Then how much weight is in the craft. Also it doesnt have to float level as we think but not sink if certain weight is added. Its just complicated is all. Not a one size fits all.


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## Stevie

Jason M said:


> The other thing that separates beyond the build process is the hull footprint in the water. Honestly the build process is a secondary consideration for me. How the fish was my primary consideration. They are dead quite and push less displacement wake than other similar sized/comparable skiffs. You do not hear hull slap when you are quartering or staked out with the stern into the waves. It is truly amazing.
> 
> When you run your hand over the entry you can feel the design in the hull and how it is designed to make the boat as quiet as possible. There is a little wave at the entry that you do not necessarily notice right away.
> 
> I have one complaint but I think that is owner error so far. I am still trying to figure out the occasional misty spray that I get in a strong quartering wind. I was not able to do the full hands on with George as the day I picked it up was the day the state closed so I am still figuring out the ins and outs of running the skiff. My old skiff was like driving a minivan compared to the Chittum.
> 
> For fishing Tampa Bay and anywhere where you deal with big confused sea like Charlotte Harbor or Key West I cannot imagine a better skiff. If I was fishing the Lagoon or Choko primarily my opinion may differ.


Hi @Jason M

Agree fishing is more important than the how the boats are made. They fish well because the way they’re built. The minimal displacement wake / hull footprint are a direct result of the very light weight of the Chittum Mangrove and hence the build process. Chittum Mangrove builds are uniquely light for an 18 foot skiff and fish very well.

Running rough chop (higher than freeboard) in quartering winds will get you wet in any boat. It’s a matter of how wet. The spray rails help a lot. Trimming the bow up and raising the windward side with tabs, as James said, help too. Another question: are you running fast enough and riding on top of the chop as much as possible?


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## Rollbar

Stevie said:


> Hi @Jason M
> 
> Agree fishing is more important than the how the boats are made. They fish well because the way their built. The minimal displacement wake / hull footprint are a direct result of the very light weight of the Mangrove and hence the build process. Mangroves are uniquely light for an 18 foot skiff and fish very well.
> 
> Running rough chop (higher than freeboard) in quartering winds will get you wet in any boat. It’s a matter of how wet. The spray rails help a lot. Trimming the bow up and raising the windward side with tabs, as James said, help too.








New Skiff Alert – Mangrove Bay “Ibis”







www.skifflife.com


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## commtrd

sjrobin said:


> Hal and George are not transparent about the build process and they have a history of over promise and under deliver. Not many, if any buyers post pics of the build process of their hulls. There will be lots of variability in the build quality with all the different lay up options offered. Why? Proprietary process? I think the design build material suits the 12 degree much better than the flat bottom for serious use. Also, Chittum skiff owners, or any other brand users, will not be forthcoming about the negative experiences with the brands they are dropping serious coin on. I think the jury is still out on longterm durability and customer service, warranty issues. What is the hull warranty? Does it matter?


Such snidely BS. All of you guys: REST ASSURED THAT IF THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH MY BOAT YALL WILL KNOW ABOUT IT. Same as with my Professional. That thing was a total pig for weight, got called out for that. It was a beautiful boat, got complimented on that. Hull warranty: of course it matters. I will look in my paperwork and post the terms. Just drove 22 hours straight from Stuart FL to Corpus Christi TX. And have some stuff to do. Get BMT weighed, pay taxes for TPWD, go pick up push pole, sign docs, full day of stuff and dead tired from the drive. I have a bunch of images but need post processing first. There are quite a few examples of anecdotal evidence of these hulls being seriously abused and surviving just fine. Why would the build process and laminating schedule suit a 12* hull moreso than a 2*? More BS. Fanboys or not, it would behoove anyone to actually research in-depth the particular argument prior to reporting a bunch of nonsense. 

Now I will launch my LM2 for the first time tomorrow and start engine breakin. I am vastly more concerned about the Tohatsu than I am the 100% carbon fiber hull. Finally, both Hal and George were 100% transparent with me on every stage of applying their proprietary lamination schedule. 100% transparent. So stop it with the BS. This shit infuriates me no matter what boat company is involved.


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## Bonesonthebrain

Not sure I even understand a statement about someone not being transparent about revealing a proprietary lamination schedule. Unless you have a non-disclosure agreement with them, they do not have to reveal squat about a proprietary design. Kind of like being pissed off at KFC because they will not give you their recipe.


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## JC Designs

commtrd said:


> Such snidely BS. All of you guys: REST ASSURED THAT IF THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH MY BOAT YALL WILL KNOW ABOUT IT. Same as with my Professional. That thing was a total pig for weight, got called out for that. It was a beautiful boat, got complimented on that. Hull warranty: of course it matters. I will look in my paperwork and post the terms. Just drove 22 hours straight from Stuart FL to Corpus Christi TX. And have some stuff to do. Get BMT weighed, pay taxes for TPWD, go pick up push pole, sign docs, full day of stuff and dead tired from the drive. I have a bunch of images but need post processing first. There are quite a few examples of anecdotal evidence of these hulls being seriously abused and surviving just fine. Why would the build process and laminating schedule suit a 12* hull moreso than a 2*? More BS. Fanboys or not, it would behoove anyone to actually research in-depth the particular argument prior to reporting a bunch of nonsense.
> 
> Now I will launch my LM2 for the first time tomorrow and start engine breakin. I am vastly more concerned about the Tohatsu than I am the 100% carbon fiber hull. Finally, both Hal and George were 100% transparent with me on every stage of applying their proprietary lamination schedule. 100% transparent. So stop it with the BS. This shit infuriates me no matter what boat company is involved.


On the build process and lamination schedule thing... I am sure they use a different lamination schedule from a 12* to the 2*, that is like engineering 101 a first year student would know! And remember, I’m just a Homosassa dummy! 😎

You are dead on, all just fanboy stuff! Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t mind having a 98/99 Whipray. I’ve no use for a new one though. Enjoy the Chittum!!!


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## JC Designs

Bonesonthebrain said:


> Not sure I even understand a statement about someone not being transparent about revealing a proprietary lamination schedule. Unless you have a non-disclosure agreement with them, they do not have to reveal squat about a proprietary design. Kind of like being pissed off at KFC because they will not give you their recipe.


Exactly, and the average consumer wouldn’t have a clue what they were looking at anyway!


----------



## devrep




----------



## commtrd

They actually do customize the schedules per application. Hal told me if I ever wanted to order a 21 and put a 300 on the stern (have no idea why in the world someone would do such a thing) they would build the boat to absolutely handle the weight and power. 

Now if a guy told them he would run a 50 and then decides to hang a 150 on it, there are going to be issues there. A little common sense can go a long way.


----------



## RJTaylor

JC Designs said:


> Yes, yes... please do.
> 
> Well, I’ll go ahead and name a few that are above and beyond the coast guard standards for flotation foam...
> 
> Carolina skiff J series, Sundance skiff, Boston whaler, and old sears hull I had when I was a kid, pro lines... shall we continue?
> 
> Donzi, sunbird, ranger, triton, stratos...
> 😎


I think he's confused with longer than 20'


----------



## finbully

Bonesonthebrain said:


> Not sure I even understand a statement about someone not being transparent about revealing a proprietary lamination schedule. Unless you have a non-disclosure agreement with them, they do not have to reveal squat about a proprietary design. Kind of like being pissed off at KFC because they will not give you their recipe.


100% agree! Goofy thinking transparent and revealing are words or actions used in any proprietary process demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the meaning of the word proprietary!


----------



## Jason M

Stevie said:


> Hi @Jason M
> 
> Agree fishing is more important than the how the boats are made. They fish well because the way their built. The minimal displacement wake / hull footprint are a direct result of the very light weight of the Chittum Mangrove and hence the build process. Chittum Mangrove builds are uniquely light for an 18 foot skiff and fish very well.
> 
> Running rough chop (higher than freeboard) in quartering winds will get you wet in any boat. It’s a matter of how wet. The spray rails help a lot. Trimming the bow up and raising the windward side with tabs, as James said, help too. Another question: are you running fast enough and riding on top9of the chop as much as possible?


I agree with you and you are right. I just don't know the ins and outs of other manufacturers process and materials that I cannot comment intelligently about it. Beyond carbon and glass that's about as much as I know. I've never studied skiff building.

Hal and Georgie were great with me. I just showed up one day unannounced at the factory.


----------



## JC Designs

At the end of the day, what does any average buyer really know about composites engineering or construction other than a little “and I mean little” info they can get off the www and what the salesman tells them? I know there are some engineers out there but at the end of the day... the consumer typically has to trust that the builder knows what they are doing! Not a bad thing, same goes for the auto industry really.


----------



## Stevie

sjrobin said:


> Hal and George are not transparent about the build process and they have a history of over promise and under deliver. Not many, if any buyers post pics of the build process of their hulls. There will be lots of variability in the build quality with all the different lay up options offered. Why? Proprietary process? I think the design build material suits the 12 degree much better than the flat bottom for serious use. Also, Chittum skiff owners, or any other brand users, will not be forthcoming about the negative experiences with the brands they are dropping serious coin on. I think the jury is still out on longterm durability and customer service, warranty issues. What is the hull warranty? Does it matter?


Hey Steven @sjrobin ,

You’re great at hunting fish and poling a skiff ...but.... your remarks have a lot of mis information....



















I seriously doubt a builder could be more revealing than the extensive step by step photos which Chittum has posted on IG and I reposted on this thread. If there’s only 1 IG repost everyone should see, it’s the 3rd one on the first post showing Chittum’s steps in one shot infusion on the hull.

Of the 4 I’ve owned, 3 were prototypes or the first of a kind: Carbon Race Boat (1st 100% carbon build), LM2 1st 100% Carbon Mangrove build 2 degree,12 degree Mangrove prototype (originally a tiller- converted to center console). All 3 of these boats are my favorites for their application— all have held up under serious use.

I get a text every month from the 2nd owner of my LM1 tunnel... he raves. Just yesterday:

“Just fished the LM hard for five days. Hands down the easiest poling skiff made! ... People just don’t understand the difference...”

@sjrobin, your comment: “There will be lots of variability in the build quality with all the different lay up options offered.” The base Snake Bight layup has been around since 2009. The Snake Bight Performance has been in development since the first “widow maker” was built in 2013 for Thane Morgan & Dustin Huff, later owned by Nathaniel Linville (that boat is at the Chittum factory for sale with Evinrude 175 — no stress cracks after 7 years running 50-60 mph). The Mangrove / LM2 builds began in the summer of 2018... to me these are the most exciting boats given their super light weight and strong performance with lighter outboards. *** The common denominator of all Chittums since 2009 is 100% infusion— hulls, parts liner & deck... these are very strong boats. The first 2 posts on this thread demonstrate their infusion mastery.

Your remark: “Hal and George .... have a history of over promise and under deliver.” @sjrobin - you said that to me in 2017! ... I got my 2 new builds 2017& 2018 on time. I believe they’re on hull 149 from the Palm City facility.

Let’s get out on the water soon!


----------



## Jason M

Stevie said:


> Hi @Jason M
> 
> Agree fishing is more important than the how the boats are made. They fish well because the way their built. The minimal displacement wake / hull footprint are a direct result of the very light weight of the Chittum Mangrove and hence the build process. Chittum Mangrove builds are uniquely light for an 18 foot skiff and fish very well.
> 
> Running rough chop (higher than freeboard) in quartering winds will get you wet in any boat. It’s a matter of how wet. The spray rails help a lot. Trimming the bow up and raising the windward side with tabs, as James said, help too. Another question: are you running fast enough and riding on top9of the chop as much as possible?


To your question on riding on top. This is the thing that's been hardest for me to adjust to moving from my old skiff. 15 years of running the old one and I have to make myself push that throttle and ride on top when it gets nasty. My Silver King would not let you do that.

For what it's worth. If I'm a manufacturer I wouldn't give any of my proprietary info away either. Either they bought that or figured it out. That can't be a complaint.


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## Smackdaddy53

Gotta love some Chittum drama. They are nice boats. They’ll get you there then it’s up to you to catch. Keith that is a pretty girl!


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## commtrd

Another thing that is not widely advertised is: when visiting with George on many technical ideas, some opposing, he is really a wealth of information. George told me I should really consider getting a steel galvanized RamLin trailer. he said it would tow much better, be more forgiving for road harshness. So I surprised him and ordered a galvanized with Gatorskin white coating on everything. I love that trailer. It tows like a dream. Very attractive too. Point being that if a person is willing to utilize good solid input they will likely be very happy with the end result. 

They are there to bounce ideas off of and there has been a ton of correspondence back and forth during the planning and building phases. Just invaluable. This has been a learning experience for me for sure.


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## scissorhands

Both the 2 and 12 degree are really nice boats, I’ve been on both in their own environment, but I’ve never driven either. They do seem to ride bow down


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## CKEAT

I spoke to Hal and George recently and both took quite a bit of time out of their day to talk to me and answer any questions and also I engage in conversation about fishing and boats. That means a lot in today’s day and time. Oh and they did that not knowing if I will ever buy a boat. Goes a long way for me.


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## NealXB2003

Anybody got performance numbers on the 21?


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## Smackdaddy53

CKEAT said:


> I spoke to Hal and George recently and both took quite a bit of time out of their day to talk to me and answer any questions and also I engage in conversation about fishing and boats. That means a lot in today’s day and time. Oh and they did that not knowing if I will ever buy a boat. Goes a long way for me.


Did they email you their top secret G-13 classified documents?


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## CKEAT

Hahaha, not yet.  Just normal discussion. I know, it sounds impossible.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

No boat, no matter how badass and how much carbon fiber, is worth losing fishing buddies over. I think we are all better than that. Let’s all go fishing and cut the childish bullshit.


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## CKEAT

Oh for sure, that wasn’t meant to be snide. I was referring to how much folks get all over Chittum and hells bay or whatever company for whatever reason. It’s silly, I care more about my own interactions with folks. 

If that came across that way, it is because it is behind a machine on social media.


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## Matts

So glad you got that beautiful skiff Keith! Can’t wait to run with you down south. I think my LM 2 Carbon is in fact, better than sliced bread and certainly helps me catch more fish. It’s truly that quiet on the pole. I think Stevie sold me hull #1 of the thinner LM 2 lay-up so that makes me a guinea pig. I send Hal, George and Stevie pics of fish and the Chittum all the time. I’ve had it for a year and love the skiff more each day. Absolutely the best brand I’ve fished. That being said, I love the fly fishing community and will certainly fish in any other skiff. Just ask me and I’ll take you up on it! Friends are more important than fishing. Life’s too short!


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## JC Designs

Smackdaddy53 said:


> No boat, no matter how badass and how much carbon fiber, is worth losing fishing buddies over. I think we are all better than that. Let’s all go fishing and cut the childish bullshit.


Speak for yourself A-HOLE! 🤣 😂 🤣


----------



## commtrd

A few images of my new LM2. Since Stevie initiated... =)
Such a beautiful boat. Awesome craftsmanship.


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## makin moves

Wow what a beautiful boat! Enjoy it.


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## Matts

Wow Keith, that thing looks amazing! Now I really want to see how it’s going to do with the tunnel. Glad you got the spider cage as that should help with all the wind down south. Look, what do you know, they actually mounted the right engine at the right height, which is not something you can say about your last build😎


----------



## Stevie

commtrd said:


> A few images of my new LM2. Since Stevie initiated... =)
> Such a beautiful boat. Awesome craftsmanship.


Gorgeous skiff, Keith! Felicidades!


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## FMH

What a beautiful skiff! Enjoy her.


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## ifsteve

CKEAT said:


> I spoke to Hal and George recently and both took quite a bit of time out of their day to talk to me and answer any questions and also I engage in conversation about fishing and boats. That means a lot in today’s day and time. Oh and they did that not knowing if I will ever buy a boat. Goes a long way for me.


Sure it does. But don't make it sound like Chittum are the only guys who take the time to truly engage with a potential customer. Any quality builder should do the same and I know first hand several that do.


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## CKEAT

ifsteve said:


> Sure it does. But don't make it sound like Chittum are the only guys who take the time to truly engage with a potential customer. Any quality builder should do the same and I know first hand several that do.


Did I say that? I have also worked with several that do, never said other wise. I have no bias. Zero. Mel at ankona was awesome! 

I will always call it like I see it by my own experience. Just wish all here that had so much to say had to do it in an elevator with that person on their face. It wouldn’t go the same way.


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## ifsteve

CKEAT said:


> Did I say that? I have also worked with several that do, never said other wise. I have no bias. Zero. Mel at ankona was awesome!
> 
> I will always call it like I see it by my own experience. Just wish all here that had so much to say had to do it in an elevator with that person on their face. It wouldn’t go the same way.


No you didn't. But the title of the thread was what makes Chittum better. So I took your post to mean just that. Sorry that wasn't what you meant.


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## Stevie

ifsteve said:


> No you didn't. But the title of the thread was what makes Chittum better. So I took your post to mean just that. Sorry that wasn't what you meant.


Hi @ifsteve

Somehow you changed the quote of the title from “different” to “better”. The title doesn’t say “better”...In the context of your 1st post here, your observation would have been the same anyway...

Today in the supermarket I was taking a sample the store offered of a pricey item.. the cashier turned around and looked at me... I didn’t think much of it, but she said, from behind her mask: “That was a smile!” I responded, “I could tell by the twinkle in your eyes!”.... Communicating on this forum and always in writing is contorted.... I agree w/ @CKEAT ’s elevator example...

To your original comment @ifsteve, I agree it’s not unique that Chittum’s owners treat their customers well. I had nice personal interactions with Kevin Fenn and Wylie Nagler (a long time ago)... Kevin refunded a deposit I made on a Glide when I backed out....(I had a Caimen at the time); he didn’t have to...

About George— I’m extremely biased because he ran my skiff to Andros from FL for me to fish for a season.. Then, I ran it back to FL with him, fishing wilderness areas 3 days, a trip that was a lifetime experience. He really saved us from serious danger as we had engine problems (F70) due to bad fuel crossing the Gulf Stream... George pulled all the camping gear etc from the rear locker climbed inside and changed the Racor... he had the cowling off probably 7 times to remove a dirty filter, then take a water out of the bowl and reprime the engine... I sat on the bow as human ballast... he never once lost his cool... George is a 50 some year old still full of piss and vinegar... he’s totally dedicated and committed to making the best product possible for his customers and to being clear about the schedule... When I first got on MS, I couldn’t believe all the bombast, hyperbole, drama and often mean spirited interactions among the skiff community, and George was in the middle of it. When I first met him, I thought he wasn’t anything like the guy I saw on this forum... over time I realized, yeah that’s the same guy, but he’s really passionate about the quality of the skiffs he’s making... I’m glad he’s built the skiffs I run, and I would only want to cross the Gulf Stream again with George at the helm...

I’m grateful to run the skiffs I do, and the ones I’ve had in the past, to be a part of this community... and to get out on the water as much as I have the past 3 years...


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## ifsteve

Stevie

Good response and yes I changed a word from the trhead title. However, I don't think I changed the suggestion made in the title. I highly doubt anyone took the word different to me worse.....lol


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## commtrd

#allskiffsRrelevant. =)

OK guys truce! For the right person, any given skiff will be the RIGHT ONE. The HB guys won't like a BT, the ECC guys might not like ANY of the others. Or whatever. Ford, Chevy, Dodge you know the drill. 

To me the only real problem with the Chittums are the cost. Not saying it is not justified (it is). Just that they are priced such that the majority of guys are going to have a really tough time resolving the entry cost. Me included. There are several 24' boats with 200+ hp outboards that can be had for less money. Conflicting value assessments, and totally understandable too.

For the many who just cannot come up with the funding to make it happen, there will be disdain and that too is understandable. 

So it is really just their position in the market place of available skiffs. It is a very top shelf product, and most guys either can't or don't want to pay the price. That in no way diminishes the value and functionality of any other skiff, nor should it be implied via perception. Some guy on a jon boat may do a lot better catching than a guy on a Chittum, of course the jon boat guy might be soaking croaker on the bottom too. Whatever. 

Other than prohibitive cost, I see no downside to a Chittum skiff. To me it was worth the entry price. Others will not see it that way.


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## JC Designs

CKEAT said:


> Did I say that? I have also worked with several that do, never said other wise. I have no bias. Zero. Mel at ankona was awesome!
> 
> I will always call it like I see it by my own experience. Just wish all here that had so much to say had to do it in an elevator with that person on their face. It wouldn’t go the same way.


I would, but that’s just me. Calls it likes I sees it. Mel is a great dude, have had a few conversations with him and he knows I’m not even interested in purchasing but rather becoming yet more competition. He took the time to email me and offer some great advise in the beginning and even offered some assistance if I needed it! Hal is a great guy too, like I said before... he could have just told us to pound sand when asked about some scrap core for @Backcountry 16’s new re build but he stepped up and said sure, no problem. That means a whole hell of a lot to me! Again, Hal knew there wasn’t gonna be a sale but stepped up and did what was a good thing for no reason other than to be kind! Hat is tipped to both!


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## Stevie

My friend in MX has caught 9 permit yesterday and 7 today from a panga.


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## Bonesonthebrain

Value is in the eye of the beholder. To me a Chittum skiff would never be worth it, blown out knees, arthritic feet and a head operation that results in occasional vertigo, means I do not pole much. I would be better off spending the money on a guide with a Chittum. 

But just like high end stereo equipment, cars etc, there is a point of diminishing returns and not everyone can hear the difference in stereos, or can drive well enough to appreciate a car, or pole a skiff enough to see the value.

So for me it is Pathfinder, Beavertail, Ram 1500, BMW Z4, Marantz amps and Paradigm speakers. Plenty of more expensive and ‘better’ out there, but this is my sweet spot of diminishing returns. Everyone has their own point and no right or wrong is involved. Kudos to those who can take advantage of what a high end skiff has to offer.


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## JC Designs

Bonesonthebrain said:


> Value is in the eye of the beholder. To me a Chittum skiff would never be worth it, blown out knees, arthritic feet and a head operation that results in occasional vertigo, means I do not pole much. I would be better off spending the money on a guide with a Chittum.
> 
> But just like high end stereo equipment, cars etc, there is a point of diminishing returns and not everyone can hear the difference in stereos, or can drive well enough to appreciate a car, or pole a skiff enough to see the value.
> 
> So for me it is Pathfinder, Beavertail, Ram 1500, BMW Z4, Marantz amps and Paradigm speakers. Plenty of more expensive and ‘better’ out there, but this is my sweet spot of diminishing returns. Everyone has their own point and no right or wrong is involved. Kudos to those who can take advantage of what a high end skiff has to offer.


You do make some valid points. I will add a little twist to it though if you’ll humor me please...
Some folks are boat enthusiasts just like the car guys and they love to fish too. They may not be able to pole the skiff or even operate it or an offshore boat for that matter. So they buy the boat, then pay someone or take a friend along that is competent and capable. I spent my 20’s working at a large dealership and my boss and best man was a fair bit older than I. He had some coin and loved flats and offshore fishing. I captained his boats when he wanted to go out or wanted to “wine and dine” some friends or clients from his other business and in return I got to go offshore fishing on a regular basis fo free and that was back when we could keep 5 grouper so needless to say I ate well! Same for inshore, would go anytime and pole the boat a few hrs in the A:M for him then switch to trolling motor and spin tackle the rest of the day. Plus, I had a company fuel card and was permitted to fill my tank if he wasn’t going! Ok, it was a little long winded and some gloating but the point was some folks just like boats and prefer to own there own even though they can just hire guides and life would be much simpler.


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## Stevie

scissorhands said:


> Both the 2 and 12 degree are really nice boats, I’ve been on both in their own environment, but I’ve never driven either. They do seem to ride bow down


@scissorhands 
In general, Chittums seem to perform best running level and on top of chop. The 12 degree has more trim range to get the bow up than the 2 degree with short shaft OB. In my experience running the 2* I could trim the bow up plenty to cross Galveston, Epiritu Santo & San Antonio Bays.

Will post some running videos soon...

Best,


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## Stevie

NealXB2003 said:


> Anybody got performance numbers on the 21?


Top speeds I’ve heard:

On the Mangrove build 21 with Merc 115, reached low 50s. On a heavily appointed 21 (2 bait wells, tuna tubes, etc) with F150, reached 57 mph. In both cases the boats were not totally dialed in with props.

I poled the Mangrove build 21 w/ Tohatsu 115 at the Miami Boatshow. It drafted the same as the Mangrove Performance 18 with F70: about 7”. The 3rd video on the IG post below shows Johan Vannieuwland poling the 21.


__
http://instagr.am/p/B8rZPanhD14/


----------



## sjrobin

Stevie said:


> Hey Steven @sjrobin ,
> 
> You’re great at hunting fish and poling a skiff ...but.... your remarks have a lot of mis information....
> 
> View attachment 151708
> 
> 
> View attachment 151707
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt a builder could be more revealing than the extensive step by step photos which Chittum has posted on IG and I reposted on this thread. If there’s only 1 IG repost everyone should see, it’s the 3rd one on the first post showing Chittum’s steps in one shot infusion on the hull.
> 
> Of the 4 I’ve owned, 3 were prototypes or the first of a kind Carbon Race Boat (1st 100% carbon build), LM2 1st 100% carbon 2 degree,12 degree Mangrove prototype (originally a tiller- converted to center console). All 3 of these boats are my favorites for their application— all have held up under serious use.
> 
> I get a text every month from the 2nd owner of my LM1 tunnel... he raves. Just yesterday:
> 
> “Just fished the LM hard for five days. Hands down the easiest poling skiff made! ... People just don’t understand the difference...”
> 
> @sjrobin, your comment: “There will be lots of variability in the build quality with all the different lay up options offered.” The base Snake Bight layup has been around since 2009. The Snake Bight Performance has been in development since the first “widow maker” was built in 2013 for Thane Morgan & Dustin Huff, later owned bu Nathaniel Linville (that boat is at the Chittum factory for sale with Evinrude 175 — no stress cracks after 7 years running 50-60 mph). The Mangrove / LM2 builds began in the summer of 2018... to me these are the most exciting boats given their super light weight and strong performance with lighter outboards. *** The common denominator of all Chittums since 2009 is 100% infusion— hulls, parts liner & deck... these are very strong boats. The first 2 posts on this thread demonstrate their infusion mastery.
> 
> Your remark: “Hal and George .... have a history of over promise and under deliver.” @sjrobin - you said that to me in 2017! ... I got my 2 new builds 2017& 2018 on time. I believe they’re on hull 149 from the Palm City facility.
> 
> Let’s get out on the water soon!


No worries Stevie, just an old, out of touch Texas fish hunter with a special dislike for hype. I have spent hours talking to Hal (boat shows/events) about everything from ranches to fishing big game in Australia, but skiff building did not come up much. Any negatives I mentioned and the response is operator error. He is fun to talk to because of his experiences. Zero sales pitch to me. I think deep down he regrets selling the Hells Bay brand. The hype comes from the owners and George, just the way it should. I actually recommend Chittum skiffs to people that don't pole a skiff much or have good working knowledge of the water they intend to fish. I know of a few 2 deg sales I have made for them, 
Kids in t-shirts assembling a complex product probably triggered my response.


----------



## sotilloa1078

Speaking of hype..... I will be the first to say ( and I’ve told many that ask me how I like my boat) I didn’t believe the hype at first and was very skeptical about all of the claims being made.
Fast forward a couple months. I made trip down to key west to fish with a buddy of mine who has an Islamorada 18 with a 115. Long story short my HB was for sale on my ride home. Haven’t looked back since. I won’t get into the details here since I don’t think it’s that kind of thread, but I would be happy to share if someone so happens to want to know.


----------



## Renegade

I just made the decision to purchase my newest skiff. Naturally, I considered a Chittum. 

After a lot of debate between the BT Vengeance, HB Marquesa, Chittum Snake Bight 18, and a light weight version of the ECC Vantage, I chose the Vantage.

I will be building the VHP in Aramid (Kevlar) with Carbon deck surfaces, but my VHP will be lightly built for a Pro XS 115. I'll go all Lithium and cut out weight here and there.

I narrowed my choices down to Chittum and ECC. I could not justify the large cost difference for 1" of draft when the VHP is more similar in deck size to the Chittum 21, and each has a great ride. 

I do believe that Chittum builds an excellent boat but I struggled with the pricing. Charging $15K for a carbon upgrade that represents an $1200 material difference seems unethical to me, and I am a builder of high-end waterfront homes. 

Not looking for a debate here. I am just being honest about what swayed my decision. If you can afford it, and you find value in it, good on you.


----------



## JC Designs

Renegade said:


> I just made the decision to purchase my newest skiff. Naturally, I considered a Chittum.
> 
> After a lot of debate between the BT Vengeance, HB Marquesa, Chittum Snake Bight 18, and a light weight version of the ECC Vantage, I chose the Vantage.
> 
> I will be building the VHP in Aramid (Kevlar) with Carbon deck surfaces, but my VHP will be lightly built for a Pro XS 115. I'll go all Lithium and cut out weight here and there.
> 
> I narrowed my choices down to Chittum and ECC. I could not justify the large cost difference for 1" of draft when the VHP is more similar in deck size to the Chittum 21, and each has a great ride.
> 
> I do believe that Chittum builds an excellent boat but I struggled with the pricing. Charging $15K for a carbon upgrade that represents an $1200 material difference seems unethical to me, and I am a builder of high-end waterfront homes.
> 
> Not looking for a debate here. I am just being honest about what swayed my decision. If you can afford it, and you find value in it, good on you.


Great choice in the Vantage, but the full carbon Chittum would have been too! The $15k difference certainly represents more than the cost of materials and as a builder you should recognize a few... Lamination schedule engineering to create the lightest yet strongest platform they can, the build methods are different, from what I see the Chittum is “mostly” fully cored not just in “key” areas and this creates a substantial amount of waste. But don’t get me wrong, the East Cape line is a good line and from everyone I have talked to Kevin is a great guy to deal with! Also remember, there is a lot in a “NAME”! Around here and I am pretty sure it is like this in many places, the clients are going to want the creme de la creme and will jump on the “Nicest, fastest, cleanest” first... even if the guide might be mediocre. Again, that’s no jab at East Cape as they build a fabulous boat! But Chittum has that “luxury thing” going for them!


----------



## Renegade

I guess my own brand might be in line with Chittum's by your description. Except that mine delivers obvious value along with sex appeal, performance and quality. Hence the basis of my decision; Is the Chittum worth $30K more than the Vantage I will be building? Not when I viewed the two pragmatically. 

There is a curve in the line graph that represents quality vs cost. At some point costs rise with no equitable quality attached. In my view, the ECC was on that curve and the Chittum was nearly straight up from there. 

No judgement here. It's just that if there is real value there, Chittum either does a poor job of expressing that value or I have not valued it in the way they have expressed it.

Again, not knocking the boat. It is phenomenal. I just don't think it is worth 50% more than boats that are similar in size, ride and overall performance. Regardless, I am happy that they exist to elevate the entire market and continue to push the industry upward.


----------



## JC Designs

Renegade said:


> I guess my own brand might be in line with Chittum's by your description. Except that mine delivers obvious value along with sex appeal, performance and quality. Hence the basis of my decision; Is the Chittum worth $30K more than the Vantage I will be building? Not when I viewed the two pragmatically.
> 
> There is a curve in the line graph that represents quality vs cost. At some point costs rise with no equitable quality attached. In my view, the ECC was on that curve and the Chittum was nearly straight up from there.
> 
> No judgement here. It's just that if there is real value there, Chittum either does a poor job of expressing that value or I have not valued it in the way they have expressed it.
> 
> Again, not knocking the boat. It is phenomenal. I just don't think it is worth 50% more than boats that are similar in size, ride and overall performance. Regardless, I am happy that they exist to elevate the entire market and continue to push the industry upward.


I certainly get it my friend, and if you’ve followed any of my posts you’ll know I am no where near being able to purchase a skiff that cost at a minimum double what my 5 acre homestead cost me. But the value is in what the purchaser/ owner sees. Any item, and I mean any item is truly only worth what someone is willing to pay for said item! I think you made a great choice for your needs and intended budget and you will enjoy your new skiff as it is a quality skiff no doubt! And besides that... once X-Caliber comes on the market ya’ll will all be trading up!!! 😎 🤘 Tight lines, and God bless, James!🙏


----------



## jsnipes

^ I am not a Chittum cheerleader (though I think they are excellent boats) but I really don't understand where people come in thinking they are 50% more expensive than some other mid-high end flats boat. 

A 10% CF Chittum is I think 54k with a 50hp Tohatsu, 60k with an F70. 

So, you are telling me a Vantage out the door is 36-40k? I don't think so.

Now, could you make a Chittum that is 50% more than a Vantage? Sure, you can get 100% CF, lots of random expensive options and get there. But ECC would also build you a full carbon Vantage that would cost 80k as well!


----------



## Str8-Six

What I’ve gathered from this thread:

Chittum has pushed the envelope and has leaped past the competition 
The OP moved to my area and caught more permit on fly on his chittum in 3 months than I have in my entire life
The most popular hulls haven’t changed in years besides increasing weight to support 4 Strokes
There is a demand for similar light weight Builds
I can’t afford any of the skiffs mentioned


----------



## JC Designs

Str8-Six said:


> What I’ve gathered from this thread:
> 
> Chittum has pushed the envelope and has leaped past the competition
> The OP moved to my area and caught more permit on fly on his chittum in 3 months than I have in my entire life
> The most popular hulls haven’t changed in years besides increasing weight to support 4 Strokes
> There is a demand for similar light weight Builds
> I can’t afford any of the skiffs mentioned


I think that sums it up, I can afford one of them but I have to build it lol!😂


----------



## devrep

and people are still spending money like crazy even with a pandemic, a marxist uprising and imminent collapse of the economy. life is good my friends.


----------



## Rollbar

devrep said:


> and people are still spending money like crazy even with a pandemic, a marxist uprising and imminent collapse of the economy. life is good my friends.


Ya, that way they can keep their boat for only the payments they sent in because the banks won't be around to take them. LOL


----------



## JC Designs

devrep said:


> and people are still spending money like crazy even with a pandemic, a marxist uprising and imminent collapse of the economy. life is good my friends.


They are patriots, and besides... it’s fake money anyway! 🤣 And the $600 week federal unemployment put $100’s more in some folks hands each week than they have ever made and they have not a clue what to do with it! Not everyone, but many! $1200-$2400 down will get them all sorts of new toys they can’t afford when they go back to work! Hey, I was there once and I was earning every penny of what I had coming in! Those middle grounds trips with a built 250 Yamaha turning a 15x26 prop 10k rpms were so much fun though! Yes, I took a single engine boat with a race motor to the middle grounds... and many many times, but hey, I was in my 20’s!


----------



## Rollbar

JC Designs said:


> They are patriots, and besides... it’s fake money anyway! 🤣


Yep, and if Trump isn't re-elected, the price just went down for resale as well as purchasing at the dealer.
Might want to wait till November.


----------



## JC Designs

Rollbar said:


> Yep, and if Trump isn't re-elected, the price just went down for resale as well as purchasing at the dealer.
> Might want to wait till November.


I’m not in the market for anything. If you look back through some of my posts you will see my business plan was to be up and running in 2021. Ol’ ******* cracker from Homosassa ain’t as dumb as some on here thought! 🤣 😎 🤙

Man, I do love the hieroglyphics! 🤪


----------



## CKEAT

Can anyone say Hyper Inflation or the value of the dollar is headed for the toilet?  being facetious here but very real and scary possibility.


----------



## sotilloa1078

Renegade said:


> I just made the decision to purchase my newest skiff. Naturally, I considered a Chittum.
> 
> After a lot of debate between the BT Vengeance, HB Marquesa, Chittum Snake Bight 18, and a light weight version of the ECC Vantage, I chose the Vantage.
> 
> I will be building the VHP in Aramid (Kevlar) with Carbon deck surfaces, but my VHP will be lightly built for a Pro XS 115. I'll go all Lithium and cut out weight here and there.
> 
> I narrowed my choices down to Chittum and ECC. I could not justify the large cost difference for 1" of draft when the VHP is more similar in deck size to the Chittum 21, and each has a great ride.
> 
> I do believe that Chittum builds an excellent boat but I struggled with the pricing. Charging $15K for a carbon upgrade that represents an $1200 material difference seems unethical to me, and I am a builder of high-end waterfront homes.
> 
> Not looking for a debate here. I am just being honest about what swayed my decision. If you can afford it, and you find value in it, good on you.


congrats on the new boat. But I can guarantee you the draft difference will be more than 1”. To be honest the vantage is more comparable to a marquesa. Not taking away anything from the Vantage but they’re not in the same class in my opinion.


----------



## Renegade

jsnipes said:


> ^ I am not a Chittum cheerleader (though I think they are excellent boats) but I really don't understand where people come in thinking they are 50% more expensive than some other mid-high end flats boat.
> 
> A 10% CF Chittum is I think 54k with a 50hp Tohatsu, 60k with an F70.
> 
> So, you are telling me a Vantage out the door is 36-40k? I don't think so.
> 
> Now, could you make a Chittum that is 50% more than a Vantage? Sure, you can get 100% CF, lots of random expensive options and get there. But ECC would also build you a full carbon Vantage that would cost 80k as well!


You are comparing apples to oranges. When considered comparably, it is nearly $86k for the Chittum. The Vantage has a 115. Add up what it takes to get there alone. Then add the rest.

I did my homework.


----------



## sotilloa1078

jsnipes said:


> ^ I am not a Chittum cheerleader (though I think they are excellent boats) but I really don't understand where people come in thinking they are 50% more expensive than some other mid-high end flats boat.
> 
> A 10% CF Chittum is I think 54k with a 50hp Tohatsu, 60k with an F70.
> 
> So, you are telling me a Vantage out the door is 36-40k? I don't think so.
> 
> Now, could you make a Chittum that is 50% more than a Vantage? Sure, you can get 100% CF, lots of random expensive options and get there. But ECC would also build you a full carbon Vantage that would cost 80k as well!


here’s what I think happens. People go to chittum and spec out a 100% carbon fiber boat with all the bells and whistles (that most don’t even need) and then get sticker shock.
Then they go to the other company they were comparing to and spec out a non carbon fiber boat and it’s significantly cheaper. Well yeah it’s not apples to apples so yes it will be cheaper. 50% cheaper I don’t know about that.
I have talked to someone that did this exact thing and they didn’t realize it until I pointed it out. The 10% chittum is lighter than just about any skiff out there in its class but people seem to want 100% carbon fiber.
Like mentioned you’re not paying for the material. The build process in the Chittum’s is far more labor intensive which is why they are so light. More labor equals more man hours which equals higher cost. I think that’s how it goes. But what do I know.


----------



## Renegade

sotilloa1078 said:


> congrats on the new boat. But I can guarantee you the draft difference will be more than 1”. To be honest the vantage is more comparable to a marquesa. Not taking away anything from the Vantage but they’re not in the same class in my opinion.


My understanding Is that a real draft for a 115 build is slightly over 8” in 10% carbon, loaded with gear.
Light weight Vantage with 115 in Carbon/Kevlar is heavier but with more displacement. With my build I Should not be over 9” in real world.

Define “class”. Cost aside, they seem comparable enough.


----------



## Renegade

sotilloa1078 said:


> here’s what I think happens. People go to chittum and spec out a 100% carbon fiber boat with all the bells and whistles (that most don’t even need) and then get sticker shock.
> Then they go to the other company they were comparing to and spec out a non carbon fiber boat and it’s significantly cheaper. Well yeah it’s not apples to apples so yes it will be cheaper. 50% cheaper I don’t know about that.
> I have talked to someone that did this exact thing and they didn’t realize it until I pointed it out. The 10% chittum is lighter than just about any skiff out there in its class but people seem to want 100% carbon fiber.
> Like mentioned you’re not paying for the material. The build process in the Chittum’s is far more labor intensive which is why they are so light. More labor equals more man hours which equals higher cost. I think that’s how it goes. But what do I know.



I imagine you are correct. Some people do that.

I am not one of them.

Likewise, I imagine people put more value in the cost of a thing than they do in the reality of a thing.

Not you; just people.


----------



## prinjm6

Sotilloa1078, let me get your prostaff code for Chittum so I can get that % off my build!


----------



## sotilloa1078

Renegade said:


> My understanding Is that a real draft for a 115 build is slightly over 8” in 10% carbon, loaded with gear.
> Light weight Vantage with 115 in Carbon/Kevlar is heavier but with more displacement. With my build I Should not be over 9” in real world.
> 
> Define “class”. Cost aside, they seem comparable enough.


I haven’t taken a tape to the chittum with a 115 but it was shallower than I expected. There was a thread here that was discussing the Vantage extensively. The vantage I fished out of was not a 9” boat. More like 10+with a real world load. It wasn’t a carbon Kevlar build so I’m not sure what the real weight savings would be. I’m curious to know the weight difference.


----------



## Rollbar

JC Designs said:


> I’m not in the market for anything. If you look back through some of my posts you will see my business plan was to be up and running in 2021. Ol’ ******* cracker from Homosassa ain’t as dumb as some on here thought! 🤣 😎 🤙
> 
> Man, I do love the hieroglyphics! 🤪


Nothing implied to you at all.
Just an open comment of life's situations.


----------



## sotilloa1078

prinjm6 said:


> Sotilloa1078, let me get your prostaff code for Chittum so I can get that % off my build!


ha I wish I had one. There are others peoples “codes” that will benefit your more. Haha.
I’ve been fortunate enough to have owned and fished MANY brand skiffs quite extensively. They all make nice skiffs.


----------



## Rollbar

sotilloa1078 said:


> I haven’t taken a tape to the chittum with a 115 but it was shallower than I expected. There was a thread here that was discussing the Vantage extensively. The vantage I fished out of was not a 9” boat. More like 10+with a real world load. It wasn’t a carbon Kevlar build so I’m not sure what the real weight savings would be. I’m curious to know the weight difference.


10"+ good info


----------



## JC Designs

Rollbar said:


> Nothing implied to you at all.
> Just an open comment of life's situations.


Sorry if it came off like that, was really just being my usual smart ass self. Had a lower spine nerve block today for several bulged disks and feeling a little spunky! Site is lucky I have to be up at 3:30 for work tomorrow or I would jump over to the off topic section! 🤣


----------



## Rollbar

JC Designs said:


> Sorry if it came off like that, was really just being my usual smart ass self. Had a lower spine nerve block today for several bulged disks and feeling a little spunky! Site is lucky I have to be up at 3:30 for work tomorrow or I would jump over to the off topic section! 🤣


No worries, I just wanted to make sure that I was the one who wasn't coming off like that to anyone.
Hope you feel better.


----------



## JC Designs

Rollbar said:


> No worries, I just wanted to make sure that I was the one who wasn't coming off like that to anyone.
> Hope you feel better.


So far so good, whatever he shot in my spinal canal was instant relief! That, and I finally have a team of doctors that are figuring everything that’s been wrong out which is a major stress relief! Now back to the latest Chittum, Hells bay, East Cape drama thread! 🤣 😂 🤣 😂 🤘


----------



## Stevie

ifsteve said:


> Stevie
> 
> Good response and yes I changed a word from the trhead title. However, I don't think I changed the suggestion made in the title. I highly doubt anyone took the word different to me worse.....lol


Thanks, @ifsteve - I was trying to say that aim of the thread is to be informative, not high handed. And yes, I run a Chittum because it’s the best option for me.

Started saltwater fly fishing walk-in wading in TX for 10 years; so appreciate anything that will get you to the spot... Ran a 17.8 for 5 years, then a Caimen for 7 years. Had 4-5 used skiffs in rapid succession, then the Chittums. At 53, I want the lightest, easiest poling skiff, capable of big water crossings and shallow poling. I generally prefer buying a good used skiff. My 2 LM new builds at Chittum were because they were innovative boats I couldn’t buy used. I’m thankful the two 12 degree boats I run now were demos.

I mentioned my friend in MX caught 16 permit in 2 days from a panga... he’s a very talented tournament angler & pressure is way down after Covid-19 ... the last time I caught a permit from a panga required casting most of the fly line, which I’m not great at.... I sent the demo Mangrove to MX to try to get closer to the fish, make a reasonable cast & presentation. 



sjrobin said:


> No worries Stevie, just an old, out of touch Texas fish hunter with a special dislike for hype. I have spent hours talking to Hal (boat shows/events) about everything from ranches to fishing big game in Australia, but skiff building did not come up much. Any negatives I mentioned and the response is operator error. He is fun to talk to because of his experiences. Zero sales pitch to me. I think deep down he regrets selling the Hells Bay brand. The hype comes from the owners and George, just the way it should. I actually recommend Chittum skiffs to people that don't pole a skiff much or have good working knowledge of the water they intend to fish. I know of a few 2 deg sales I have made for them,
> Kids in t-shirts assembling a complex product probably triggered my response.


Hey Steven, nice comments... I think Hal regretted being out of the industry from so long—2002 to 2009. His drive for innovation took a while to crystallize as Chittum really was not a production company until 2016/2017. The product evolution they’ve made since 2017 has been remarkable. With the 21 just in production, a 26 on the drawing board, probably a bay boat... then projects for an outboard sport fisherman with Chittum’s build process, I bet Hal isn’t looking back.

I believe George has been very much involved in hull design of all the boats mentioned and advances with process, composites, and lamination.



sotilloa1078 said:


> here’s what I think happens. People go to chittum and spec out a 100% carbon fiber boat with all the bells and whistles (that most don’t even need) and then get sticker shock.
> Then they go to the other company they were comparing to and spec out a non carbon fiber boat and it’s significantly cheaper. Well yeah it’s not apples to apples so yes it will be cheaper. 50% cheaper I don’t know about that.
> I have talked to someone that did this exact thing and they didn’t realize it until I pointed it out. The 10% chittum is lighter than just about any skiff out there in its class but people seem to want 100% carbon fiber.
> Like mentioned you’re not paying for the material. The build process in the Chittum’s is far more labor intensive which is why they are so light. More labor equals more man hours which equals higher cost. I think that’s how it goes. But what do I know.


@sotilloa1078 Spot on. To me, the lion’s share of the value of a Chittum is built into the 10% boat... the 50% carbon saves 100 lbs... the 100% saves an additional 50 pounds and changes the ride quality. My favorite builds have the fewest options.

It’s great many other builders are embracing alternative materials. But until I’m convinced their basic build process is light to begin with, I question if the carbon, etc adds significant value. I once started a post saying that as consumers, we should insist that builders weigh the unrigged boat... that would be a step forward....

It would be very hard for me to build a 115 Chittum 18. We’re experimenting with a Yamaha 90 2 stroke with HydroTec Phase Kit (thanks to inspiration from James’ post!) for 100 hp on the carbon race boat. Will report numbers...


----------



## Renegade

sotilloa1078 said:


> I haven’t taken a tape to the chittum with a 115 but it was shallower than I expected. There was a thread here that was discussing the Vantage extensively. The vantage I fished out of was not a 9” boat. More like 10+with a real world load. It wasn’t a carbon Kevlar build so I’m not sure what the real weight savings would be. I’m curious to know the weight difference.


I am doing a VHPwith a light lay up since I am only doing the 115. The Aramid package saves 250#. I am doing no liners in hatches and doing all lithium batteries as well as a few other things to save weight.

It is a significant weight savings compared to the normal 9-10” boats. It should be sub-9”.

Regardless, I am keeping my Towee which floats in an honest 3”. It’s my river/winter low boat. I’m more interested in the ride, the space and the flexibility than an inch, or two, of draft.

It’s hard to make any 12 degree boat float in less than 8”. Physics is a bitch that way.


----------



## Renegade

@sotilloa1078 Spot on. To me, the lion’s share of the value of a Chittum is built into the 10% boat... the 50% carbon saves 100 lbs... the 100% saves an additional 50 pounds and changes the ride quality. My favorite builds have the fewest options.

It’s great many other builders are embracing alternative materials. But until I’m convinced their basic build process is light to begin with, I question if the carbon, etc adds significant value. I once started a post saying that as consumers, we should insist that builders weigh the unrigged boat... that would be a step forward....

It would be very hard for me to build a 115 Chittum 18. We’re experimenting with a Yamaha 90 2 stroke with HydroTec Phase Kit (thanks to inspiration from James’ post!) for 100 hp on the carbon race boat. Will report numbers...
[/QUOTE]

Chris Morejohn just did this with his Beryllium, Lithium and Marquesa. Average rigging weighed 183#. Hard to get around that. 

I believe the Marquesa weighed more than what was advertised.


----------



## Stevie

Renegade said:


> I am doing a VHPwith a light lay up since I am only doing the 115. The Aramid package saves 250#. I am doing no liners in hatches and doing all lithium batteries as well as a few other things to save weight.
> 
> It is a significant weight savings compared to the normal 9-10” boats. It should be sub-9”.
> 
> Regardless, I am keeping my Towee which floats in an honest 3”. It’s my river/winter low boat. I’m more interested in the ride, the space and the flexibility than an inch, or two, of draft.
> 
> It’s hard to make any 12 degree boat float in less than 8”. Physics is a bitch that way.


Hi @Renegade

Congratulations on your new build!

Agree the 115 boats couldn’t be sub 8”, but my experience is the Mangrove 12 degree w/ Tohatsu is 7” to slightly less and the Snake Bight w/ F70 is 7.5”.

Check the 2nd video on this post. Dustin Huff’s Mangrove 18 w/ Tohatsu 60.


__
http://instagr.am/p/B0lu9ZlhYOY/


----------



## Renegade

They are impressive.

If I wasn’t keeping my Towee, and if I needed a skinnier boat, the Snake Bight is hard to beat without building your own cored boat.

In my instance I think the added value was negligible, but I can see where that may have been different in a more standard build.

Congrats on yours! They are damn fine skiffs.


----------



## sjrobin

sotilloa1078 said:


> Speaking of hype..... I will be the first to say ( and I’ve told many that ask me how I like my boat) I didn’t believe the hype at first and was very skeptical about all of the claims being made.
> Fast forward a couple months. I made trip down to key west to fish with a buddy of mine who has an Islamorada 18 with a 115. Long story short my HB was for sale on my ride home. Haven’t looked back since. I won’t get into the details here since I don’t think it’s that kind of thread, but I would be happy to share if someone so happens to want to know.


I am sure the 12 deg Chittum with a light weight OB is the perfect skiff for Florida and maybe Louisiana, but very limited use on most days in Texas. Even then, I have a 160 mile range in the Pro, so no need to carry plastic fuel containers when traveling long distance.


----------



## texasag07

Cool to see the build pics and the info. Thanks for posting. A little less scoring in the core on some of these builds looks like a good idea to save a little weight. Is the core in the deck mold scored at all or is it just flat pieces glued to the skin due to the crowned shape of the deck mold?

Are they using epoxy on all builds infusion or are the 10 percent builds built using VE? Not that it matters from a material weight as a gallon of VE and gallon of epoxy are near the same weight.

Aside from the use of CSM used in VE or poly layups which would add some more weight depending on the glass layup choices chittum uses for epoxy infusion. From my amateur glass projects using csm, biax, and 10 and 24 oz woven mat the csm combined with a woven mat yields a really strong product. Yes the csm uptake of resin is greater but subsequent layers especially when speaking of 10 oz absorb most of their resin from the csm layer when applied on top of the csm with some additional resin being added to ensure a good wet out. Also if shooting for a desired glass thickness it’s isn’t hard to calculate how much resin it will take to wet out multiple layers of glass based on manufacture data. 

I priced them in my shopping when looking at a new build and sadly I haven’t been able to get out on one. They are also about 15 grand higher than the other skiff I was looking at with similar options. If I really needed to push the draft limitations of a 12 degree skiff on the pole then they would have ranked higher. For where I fish the most the difference in an inch or so in draft I couldn’t justify the cost. If I fished the keys more and chasing bones and such often I could definitely see the appeal. As with all skiff companies you never hear the truth about a brand till someone has sold them ( especially the guides with pro deals). In my opinion it makes it much easier to swallow larger upfront cost for performance if the skiff is your office rather than your weekend hobby. 

I understand layup and design has a lot to do with draft. I fish a lot from a one off skiff that is 15 ish feet and 3-4’ wide beam at greatest. It’s all cored and has one layer of 1708 Inside and out of The Whole skiff. With a 20 hp tohatsu it will float with two 200 lb guys, no battery and fly gear in a legitimate 4” it’s the shallowest craft I have been on.

I love seeing all skiff build pics and info so much to learn and things to add on to your magical list of the perfect skiff.


----------



## commtrd

Ran boat first time. Worst experience i ever had with a new boat. The engine ran super rough, loud as hell, no power, and overheats terribly. Lucky to get a 5 minute run before engine temp hits 210. Feels like crap trying to get on plane. Wish i had ordered anything other than a damned tohatsu to put on it. I paid all that money for this? BUMMED


----------



## CKEAT

commtrd said:


> Ran boat first time. Worst experience i ever had with a new boat. The engine ran super rough, loud as hell, no power, and overheats terribly. Lucky to get a 5 minute run before engine temp hits 210. Feels like crap trying to get on plane. Wish i had ordered anything other than a damned tohatsu to put on it. I paid all that money for this? BUMMED


Wow, let's hope it is an easy fix. That has to be super disappointing! Sorry to hear that.


----------



## finbully

commtrd said:


> #allskiffsRrelevant. =)
> 
> OK guys truce! For the right person, any given skiff will be the RIGHT ONE. The HB guys won't like a BT, the ECC guys might not like ANY of the others. Or whatever. Ford, Chevy, Dodge you know the drill.
> 
> To me the only real problem with the Chittums are the cost. Not saying it is not justified (it is). Just that they are priced such that the majority of guys are going to have a really tough time resolving the entry cost. Me included. There are several 24' boats with 200+ hp outboards that can be had for less money. Conflicting value assessments, and totally understandable too.
> 
> For the many who just cannot come up with the funding to make it happen, there will be disdain and that too is understandable.
> 
> So it is really just their position in the market place of available skiffs. It is a very top shelf product, and most guys either can't or don't want to pay the price. That in no way diminishes the value and functionality of any other skiff, nor should it be implied via perception. Some guy on a jon boat may do a lot better catching than a guy on a Chittum, of course the jon boat guy might be soaking croaker on the bottom too. Whatever.
> 
> Other than prohibitive cost, I see no downside to a Chittum skiff. To me it was worth the entry price. Others will not see it that way.


Well written!


----------



## sotilloa1078

Renegade said:


> They are impressive.
> 
> If I wasn’t keeping my Towee, and if I needed a skinnier boat, the Snake Bight is hard to beat without building your own cored boat.
> 
> In my instance I think the added value was negligible, but I can see where that may have been different in a more standard build.
> 
> Congrats on yours! They are damn fine skiffs.


yeah makes sense. Having that other super shallow skiff definitely helps. I’m sure you’ll love the new skiff.


----------



## jpipes

commtrd said:


> Ran boat first time. Worst experience i ever had with a new boat. The engine ran super rough, loud as hell, no power, and overheats terribly. Lucky to get a 5 minute run before engine temp hits 210. Feels like crap trying to get on plane. Wish i had ordered anything other than a damned tohatsu to put on it. I paid all that money for this? BUMMED


Man, I'm sorry to hear that. Frustrating when things that you pay hard earned money for don't work as expected or advertised. Will be following along to see how it gets resolved.


----------



## 7WT

Jason your description of ease of polling, quiet with no slap, and stable let alone skinny sound just like the guide I was with 5 years ago when he was using a loaner chittum waiting for his build. He was like a kid in a candy store. It was impressive morning.


----------



## 7WT

I have heard problems with Tohatsu. Didn't Harry Spear stop using them due to issues and went to Honda? You would think Chittum would test run ahead of your first run? Chittum has been using Tohatsu since first boats. Why would they sell a Tohatsu option to begin with


----------



## 4991

commtrd said:


> Ran boat first time. Worst experience i ever had with a new boat. The engine ran super rough, loud as hell, no power, and overheats terribly. Lucky to get a 5 minute run before engine temp hits 210. Feels like crap trying to get on plane. Wish i had ordered anything other than a damned tohatsu to put on it. I paid all that money for this? BUMMED


Is this what makes Chittum skiffs different??


----------



## commtrd

It looks like the outboard was mounted too high on the jack plate. Chittum is being very supportive in resolving these issues. I feel like they will get it all right, just got wound up when it was not running well at all on initial run. Will post up more as available. All should be resolved soon and will be out working on getting some eats.


----------



## EdK13

commtrd said:


> Ran boat first time. Worst experience i ever had with a new boat. The engine ran super rough, loud as hell, no power, and overheats terribly. Lucky to get a 5 minute run before engine temp hits 210. Feels like crap trying to get on plane. Wish i had ordered anything other than a damned tohatsu to put on it. I paid all that money for this? BUMMED


Ooosh.


----------



## commtrd

dhenderson said:


> Is this what makes Chittum skiffs different??


I think it is just a matter of getting the motor set right on the jack plate, there was some mis-communication there plus the intended prop is a Baumann since he started doing props again. Stephen came to my house and got the boat, is dropping the motor on the jack plate some, and I will go over there after work to ride on it. It is nice to have great customer support. I said I would post up both good and bad info and I did. Prolly should have let them have a chance to look into it first though. I do have an extremely bad temper and came un-glued over how it performed. So take all that with a grain of salt, and know that the customer support is there.


----------



## sotilloa1078

commtrd said:


> I think it is just a matter of getting the motor set right on the jack plate, there was some mis-communication there plus the intended prop is a Baumann since he started doing props again. Stephen came to my house and got the boat, is dropping the motor on the jack plate some, and I will go over there after work to ride on it. It is nice to have great customer support. I said I would post up both good and bad info and I did. Prolly should have let them have a chance to look into it first though. I do have an extremely bad temper and came un-glued over how it performed. So take all that with a grain of salt, and know that the customer support is there.


Take a breath. Motor height is an easy adjustment. Your not the only one that jumps the gun before getting some support/adjustments made. You see it across all brands. Looking forward to the update.


----------



## CKEAT

Could you not just lower it a tad and hit sweet spot? Did it not come with the Baumann or were you supposed to pick it up here in Texas? I would be curious to hear how Van Zandt is running his with the tunnel. This still seems a bit confusing.


----------



## LowHydrogen

commtrd said:


> Ran boat first time. Worst experience i ever had with a new boat. The engine ran super rough, loud as hell, no power, and overheats terribly. Lucky to get a 5 minute run before engine temp hits 210. Feels like crap trying to get on plane. Wish i had ordered anything other than a damned tohatsu to put on it. I paid all that money for this? BUMMED





commtrd said:


> I think it is just a matter of getting the motor set right on the jack plate, there was some mis-communication there plus the intended prop is a Baumann since he started doing props again. Stephen came to my house and got the boat, is dropping the motor on the jack plate some, and I will go over there after work to ride on it. It is nice to have great customer support. I said I would post up both good and bad info and I did. Prolly should have let them have a chance to look into it first though. I do have an extremely bad temper and came un-glued over how it performed. So take all that with a grain of salt, and know that the customer support is there.



You'll get it figured out. IMO frustration is warranted on a boat of this class/cost. Do they test run these boats prior to delivery? Could have been just a fluke problem that popped up with the motor after they tested it, and not related to setup.

Good luck man.


----------



## sjrobin

Once again, to pole well in any substantial wind, a skiff, boat, or anything that floats has to float level. Tohatsu engines are used on most ultralight Chittum skiffs because they are the only OB that allows the skiff to float level. Otherwise put a trolling motor on your poling skiff. Anytime I see a skiff with a trolling motor, I know I will not see that skiff where I am hunting fish in Texas. Our water is generally not clear enough to hunt sight cast fish in two feet of water. Another down side to light ultra light skiffs is the Tohatsu. I just helped a guide unload a new in box Tohatsu lower unit. His fourth lower unit. The lower unit is lightweight and inexpensive so just keep one in your truck bed as a spare, or put in your forward hatch to balance the skiff. If some one was feeling generous and gave me a 60 hp Tohatsu, I would not put it on my primary skiff.


----------



## sotilloa1078

The Tohatsu is a loud motor though. I have heard them running and they’re pretty damn loud for a 4 stroke.


----------



## scissorhands

commtrd said:


> Ran boat first time. Worst experience i ever had with a new boat. The engine ran super rough, loud as hell, no power, and overheats terribly. Lucky to get a 5 minute run before engine temp hits 210. Feels like crap trying to get on plane. Wish i had ordered anything other than a damned tohatsu to put on it. I paid all that money for this? BUMMED


Bummer dude. Should be a simple fix and thanks for being honest.


----------



## Bonesonthebrain

Curious, why would an engine run rough just by being mounted a little too high? Understand the overheat. But is the lack of power due to not getting the prop to hookup and blowing out, or is the lack of power not being able to get the motor up to speed? Lack of getting on plane without blowing out the prop is a motor/prop issue, not a height issue.


----------



## NealXB2003

Strange. Though I have never owned a tohatsu, many of the guys I duck hunt with in AR run them. They're never problematic, and running flooded timber and jumping logs has to be harder on them than flats fishing. The loudness is a true statement though..... they are noisier than my Yamaha.


----------



## devrep

did it get hot enough to shut down to idle?


----------



## Jason M

sotilloa1078 said:


> The Tohatsu is a loud motor though. I have heard them running and they’re pretty damn loud for a 4 stroke.


I would agree with this especially say the higher end on the RPMs. Not a concern for me coming from a 2-stroke.


----------



## Stevie

Keith, look forward to hearing updates. That 1st time or any time on the water should be special.

I’ve had 4 Tohatsus, still run one in MX...never these issues. The prop shaft failure is rampant (I never saw it myself) and Tohatsu needs to correct it.


----------



## commtrd

Yes that happens at 214* F. From what i observed. Stephen has lowered the motor on the plate, and installed the Baumann prop off his Tohatsu 60. Going over there after work for a run. SO it should help with the overheating and will see what the change in props does. Hal told me they are getting a Baumann prop for it now that he is building props again. Now for the rough running and lack of power i dont know. If persistent, may take a trip to the mechanic with diagnostic software i dont have. 

This motor looks to be set up for volumetric rather than pressure for cooling water, i.e. it runs around 3 psi (hopefully?) at over 4000 rpm. It would detect loss of flow rather than water pressure decreasing. I was not running shallow or in grass. Verified screens clear. Hopefully the changes today help resolve issues satisfactorily. 

One other thing discovered: this hull seems to be very much more sensitive to minute changes with trim tabs, motor tilt / trim, loading etc. Much more so than my last skiff. Like the difference between a race car and a minivan.


----------



## Jason M

commtrd said:


> Yes that happens at 214* F. From what i observed. Stephen has lowered the motor on the plate, and installed the Baumann prop off his Tohatsu 60. Going over there after work for a run. SO it should help with the overheating and will see what the change in props does. Hal told me they are getting a Baumann prop for it now that he is building props again. Now for the rough running and lack of power i dont know. If persistent, may take a trip to the mechanic with diagnostic software i dont have.
> 
> This motor looks to be set up for volumetric rather than pressure for cooling water, i.e. it runs around 3 psi (hopefully?) at over 4000 rpm. It would detect loss of flow rather than water pressure decreasing. I was not running shallow or in grass. Verified screens clear. Hopefully the changes today help resolve issues satisfactorily.
> 
> One other thing discovered: this hull seems to be very much more sensitive to minute changes with trim tabs, motor tilt / trim, loading etc. Much more so than my last skiff. Like the difference between a race car and a minivan.


Oh it's like driving a Ferrari. You just touch the tabs to adjust them. There's no slide in turns it's freaking amazing. Heck my wife even agrees that it is like driving a Ferrari. 

Although I've never driven one, lol. Compared to my truck everything is a sportscar.


----------



## NealXB2003

A cavitating prop can shake the whole motor as it slips, regains bite, repeat. Could that be what you felt?


----------



## Rollbar

So they didn't text the boat before delivery?
A few friends have the Tohatsu and no problems although for that amount of money for a skiff, why use a Tohatsu unless it is for level flotation as mentioned or customer's choice.
You would think something could be incorporated in the hull like pods etc to help the hull at rest and not in the water while running.
I don't know, just an observation.


----------



## devrep

the hatsu's are high volume low pressure cooling systems. my tldi 50 runs 5 to 6 psi. barely shows on the gauge. I just watch the telltale like in the old days.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

If you ever need a tugboat prop call Louie Baumann. If you want a shallow water skiff prop call Jack Foreman...just sayin’.


----------



## commtrd

That Baumann prop was magic. Hal will be sending me one soon as he gets them. WOW! This boat is totally completely sick. Completely puts TX scooters to shame with what this skiff will do. Just un-believable. Much operator error, combined with motor a little too high on the jack plate. She is ready to rock now. No worries. =)


----------



## commtrd

Stevie said:


> Keith, hope they take care of you. Look forward to hearing updates. That 1st time or any time on the water should be special.
> 
> I’ve had 4 Tohatsus, still run one in MX...never these issues. The prop shaft failure is rampant (I never saw it myself) and Tohatsu needs to correct it.


Yes sir the customer support was exemplary. Absolutely no issue with the Tohatsu what-so-ever. Let me be clear on that point. This skiff is neater than tits. That's all there is to that.


----------



## JC Designs

commtrd said:


> That Baumann prop was magic. Hal will be sending me one soon as he gets them. WOW! This boat is totally completely sick. Completely puts TX scooters to shame with what this skiff will do. Just un-believable. Much operator error, combined with motor a little too high on the jack plate. She is ready to rock now. No worries. =)


Whoo hoo, glad ya got her worked out!!! Never been a fan of scooters other than they run shallow! That is the easy part in my opinion! Tight lines, keep us updated!


----------



## jpipes

commtrd said:


> That Baumann prop was magic. Hal will be sending me one soon as he gets them. WOW! This boat is totally completely sick. Completely puts TX scooters to shame with what this skiff will do. Just un-believable. Much operator error, combined with motor a little too high on the jack plate. She is ready to rock now. No worries. =)



Happy to hear it. Baumann is very good at what he does, and has always done me fair. He is also easy to get ahold of!


----------



## sotilloa1078

Bingo! Glad you got it figured out. Crazy what some minor adjustments will do. I always adjust something after I take delivery. It’s part of fine tuning it to your liking. Enjoy the skiff!


----------



## Smackdaddy53

commtrd said:


> That Baumann prop was magic. Hal will be sending me one soon as he gets them. WOW! This boat is totally completely sick. Completely puts TX scooters to shame with what this skiff will do. Just un-believable. Much operator error, combined with motor a little too high on the jack plate. She is ready to rock now. No worries. =)


Glad you got it sorted out. Time for that two boat trip.


----------



## I Heart Big Ugglies

Is it true that these boats have a feature where you can levitate above the water?


----------



## Rollbar

I Heart Big Ugglies said:


> Is it true that these boats have a feature where you can levitate above the water?


Called a step hull-lol


----------



## sotilloa1078

I Heart Big Ugglies said:


> Is it true that these boats have a feature where you can levitate above the water?


Yup comes standard in all the builds.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

I Heart Big Ugglies said:


> Is it true that these boats have a feature where you can levitate above the water?


No wormy black drum allowed on a Chittum. You have to jump your happy ass in the water with them like Steve Irwin...KRIKEY


----------



## CKEAT

Hover?? Shoot, they can travel above water!


----------



## kylet

Str8-Six said:


> What I’ve gathered from this thread:
> 
> Chittum has pushed the envelope and has leaped past the competition
> The OP moved to my area and caught more permit on fly on his chittum in 3 months than I have in my entire life
> The most popular hulls haven’t changed in years besides increasing weight to support 4 Strokes
> There is a demand for similar light weight Builds
> I can’t afford any of the skiffs mentioned


I’ve read whole thread to try and see “what makes chittum different”
Thanks for the bullets


----------



## Smackdaddy53

I didn’t know boats caught fish.


----------



## commtrd

IMHO what makes Chittum skiffs "different" is relative to their construction. Now yall don't go and get your panties in a wad. This may or may not all be attributable to carbon fiber, but for sure it has everything to do with light weight. The boat handles very much differently than a heavier boat does. I can draw comparisons to my other skiff, which was a really nice boat with the exception that it was substantially heavier. It was analogous to a cadillac, with its stately more sedate handling characteristics. Now fast forward to current skiff, this thing is completely different. Not "nervous" by any means, but more like a very spirited thoroughbred race horse. This boat must be driven, it is not a set-it-and-forget-it type ride at all. It will reward the captain with instantaneous response to input from trim tabs, lift, trim, and steering. It is quite surprising how well the hull can be controlled with these inputs, but also it must be tended to at all times. The prime determinant to the particular combination of inputs at any given time is what the engine temperature is doing. That indication will let you know when it is time to make an adjustment to maintain that variable in a safe range. Which is not hard to do at all, but rather it must be trended to enable taking whatever action may be required to keep temperature in a safe range. Some guys may not take to this technical approach to running a boat at all. I personally love this degree of control over what the boat does, and how it does this. The deal is, it is not detrimental to have to monitor the engine temperature BECAUSE in so doing, the most favorable running attitude also corresponds to the most efficient set of variables for any given scenario. Which is a really neat thing to be able to interact so intimately with the controls. This makes the boat a complete blast to drive. This boat is an extremely well-engineered and technical piece of work. I have never owned a boat like this that is so technically oriented. There is a bit of a learning curve involved in getting up to speed with it (pun intended). Hopefully this short dissertation will offer up my observations and impressions so far. 

Combined with the increased challenge of fly fishing and all that entails, the entire pursuit becomes a complete immersion into technical mastery. For the more cerebrally oriented fisherman, owning a boat like this will be the catalyst to enter a new experiential realm. So clean and technical. For other guys, it may be a PITA to drive. I suspect that the majority of guys on here will be the former and not the latter. 

Such a fishing tool. Wow. Levitation? I think so... =)


----------



## kylet

commtrd said:


> IMHO what makes Chittum skiffs "different" is relative to their construction. Now yall don't go and get your panties in a wad. This may or may not all be attributable to carbon fiber, but for sure it has everything to do with light weight. The boat handles very much differently than a heavier boat does. I can draw comparisons to my other skiff, which was a really nice boat with the exception that it was substantially heavier. It was analogous to a cadillac, with its stately more sedate handling characteristics. Now fast forward to current skiff, this thing is completely different. Not "nervous" by any means, but more like a very spirited thoroughbred race horse. This boat must be driven, it is not a set-it-and-forget-it type ride at all. It will reward the captain with instantaneous response to input from trim tabs, lift, trim, and steering. It is quite surprising how well the hull can be controlled with these inputs, but also it must be tended to at all times. The prime determinant to the particular combination of inputs at any given time is what the engine temperature is doing. That indication will let you know when it is time to make an adjustment to maintain that variable in a safe range. Which is not hard to do at all, but rather it must be trended to enable taking whatever action may be required to keep temperature in a safe range. Some guys may not take to this technical approach to running a boat at all. I personally love this degree of control over what the boat does, and how it does this. The deal is, it is not detrimental to have to monitor the engine temperature BECAUSE in so doing, the most favorable running attitude also corresponds to the most efficient set of variables for any given scenario. Which is a really neat thing to be able to interact so intimately with the controls. This makes the boat a complete blast to drive. This boat is an extremely well-engineered and technical piece of work. I have never owned a boat like this that is so technically oriented. There is a bit of a learning curve involved in getting up to speed with it (pun intended). Hopefully this short dissertation will offer up my observations and impressions so far.
> 
> Combined with the increased challenge of fly fishing and all that entails, the entire pursuit becomes a complete immersion into technical mastery. For the more cerebrally oriented fisherman, owning a boat like this will be the catalyst to enter a new experiential realm. So clean and technical. For other guys, it may be a PITA to drive. I suspect that the majority of guys on here will be the former and not the latter.
> 
> Such a fishing tool. Wow. Levitation? I think so... =)


so you’re saying they are different because they are lighter (assuming per horsepower class)? Why are they lighter? Coleman’s are lighter than Yeti’s. Carolina skiffs are lighter than pathfinders. 
as far as having to drive a fishing boat, not that there’s anything wrong with your opinion but I don’t see any scenario where that becomes appealing to me for a skiff. I love running race boats. I agree a skilled driver is rewarded in that platform. I just don’t see the crossover for a technical poling skiff. It goes back to the Skiff Challenge (which chittum didn’t do so well btw), nobody really gives a shit because that’s not what these boats are for.

Not really trying to start something, just really trying to learn. I’m very interested in a chittum. I personally don’t want a skiff that rides like a light boat. I’d love a light boat that runs like a tank. I’d love a light boat that lasted as long as a tank would. I obviously wouldn’t want to pay a lot more money for a boat that’s lighter and thus has less structural integrity. Not saying it does, like I said I’m in this thread to educate myself.


----------



## commtrd

Well therein lies the beauty of having many different boats available. You don't want a boat that has extremely favorable traits like riding and performing like a light boat? Great! Buy yourself something else! Some surfers like to ride 10' heavy logs and just go down the line. Some guys like to ride short boards that let you (command you) turn and work inside the pocket. Get what you need. I have my tool! This thing is sick. I love it. BTW, might re-assess that statement concerning lighter = less structural integrity.

I do not think you are interested in a Chittum skiff.


----------



## kylet

commtrd said:


> Well therein lies the beauty of having many different boats available. You don't want a boat that has extremely favorable traits like riding and performing like a light boat? Great! Buy yourself something else! Some surfers like to ride 10' heavy logs and just go down the line. Some guys like to ride short boards that let you (command you) turn and work inside the pocket. Get what you need. I have my tool! This thing is sick. I love it. BTW, might re-assess that statement concerning lighter = less structural integrity.
> 
> I do not think you are interested in a Chittum skiff.


I am absolutely interested in them. In general lighter, means less structural integrity. That’s a fact. To assume otherwise would defy physics. I don’t think that’s a hard concept. If chittum does defy that, I think everyone would love to see it.

and lmao at “extremely favorable traits like riding and performing like a light boat”. That’s funny


----------



## jsnipes

the ride is much better to be experienced than to try and describe.

my best attempt is that with the chittum (12 degreee) i have experienced you are able to "ride on top" of the waves instead of going "through them". So, ordinarily when you have a ~15mph wind you typically would back off the throttle some to make the ride more comfortable. My experience with the chittum was if you get going > 30mph you actually get on top of the chop and it's a smoother ride than going 25mph.

and in other boats (my hells bay being one of them) as you get faster just feels like you are banging into the waves harder vs. getting on top. just my inelegant 2c


----------



## NealXB2003

kylet said:


> I am absolutely interested in them. In general lighter, means less structural integrity. That’s a fact. To assume otherwise would defy physics. I don’t think that’s a hard concept. If chittum does defy that, I think everyone would love to see it.
> 
> and lmao at “extremely favorable traits like riding and performing like a light boat”. That’s funny



Allison defied that "lighter means less structural integrity" theory in the bass boat world. I don't see any reason why the same couldn't be done with a skiff.


----------



## kylet

jsnipes said:


> the ride is much better to be experienced than to try and describe.
> 
> my best attempt is that with the chittum (12 degreee) i have experienced you are able to "ride on top" of the waves instead of going "through them". So, ordinarily when you have a ~15mph wind you typically would back off the throttle some to make the ride more comfortable. My experience with the chittum was if you get going > 30mph you actually get on top of the chop and it's a smoother ride than going 25mph.
> 
> and in other boats (my hells bay being one of them) as you get faster just feels like you are banging into the waves harder vs. getting on top. just my inelegant 2c


Based on length of the hull there is a sweet spot to ride on top of chop. That applies to all boats from a 12 ft John to 42 ft contender. The longer the boat the easier it is to get on top. That’s due to the length between crests. If you have trouble getting on top of chop due to weight, then you do not have enough power.
The concern with running on top isnt being able to get up there. It’s if you get your prop out of the water and spin a hub.


----------



## kylet

NealXB2003 said:


> Allison defied that "lighter means less structural integrity" theory in the bass boat world. I don't see any reason why the same couldn't be done with a skiff.


Allison hasn’t defied that theory.


----------



## sjrobin

jsnipes said:


> the ride is much better to be experienced than to try and describe.
> 
> my best attempt is that with the chittum (12 degreee) i have experienced you are able to "ride on top" of the waves instead of going "through them". So, ordinarily when you have a ~15mph wind you typically would back off the throttle some to make the ride more comfortable. My experience with the chittum was if you get going > 30mph you actually get on top of the chop and it's a smoother ride than going 25mph.
> 
> and in other boats (my hells bay being one of them) as you get faster just feels like you are banging into the waves harder vs. getting on top. just my inelegant 2c


Accurate to a certain point of wave height and frequency, then I assure you, a less punishing, dryer ride in a Marquesa or even Biscayne. Also, to be clear, any of my previous reviews refer to the flat bottom Chittum skiffs.


----------



## sotilloa1078

kylet said:


> I am absolutely interested in them. In general lighter, means less structural integrity. That’s a fact. To assume otherwise would defy physics. I don’t think that’s a hard concept. If chittum does defy that, I think everyone would love to see it.
> 
> and lmao at “extremely favorable traits like riding and performing like a light boat”. That’s funny


 have you seen the video of George hitting the carbon step with a hammer? And also hitting other steps laminated with other materials. You will be surprised. I’ve said it many of times. Weight savings goes far beyond the material you choose to use in the lamination.
Like stated above some people like to run tabs down, bow down and go. Me well I’m a short board guy when it comes to surfing. I can stand on a wave and go straight down the line or I can get technical and do critical turns in the pocket. You can do both on a short board. Not so much on a long board.


----------



## commtrd

kylet said:


> I am absolutely interested in them. In general lighter, means less structural integrity. That’s a fact. To assume otherwise would defy physics. I don’t think that’s a hard concept. If chittum does defy that, I think everyone would love to see it.
> 
> and lmao at “extremely favorable traits like riding and performing like a light boat”. That’s funny


Lighter construction can absolutely equate to much stronger structural integrity. Reference modern aircraft with high-tech composite radar-evasive skins, racing sailboats, modern automobiles employing much lighter bodies that contribute to greater fuel efficiencies. And of course Chittums with their vastly improved resin / carbon ratios which does indeed yield much greater strength per weight, which is evident and has been so for some time. Other boat builders also employ the vacuum infusion methodology as well, so not just Chittum obviously.

Finally, what is so funny about experiencing extremely favorable traits like riding in / performing like a highly tuned, finely engineered, well-optimized composite hull formulated of carbon fiber? Because I can promise that in all my 40+ years of owning and running boats, that I have NEVER experienced anything even remotely like this Chittum hull. Trolls always do what trolls will. There is no further argument to be made here. Disregard technological advancement as desired. I don't care what you think. Buy what you want.


----------



## kylet

sotilloa1078 said:


> have you seen the video of George hitting the carbon step with a hammer? And also hitting other steps laminated with other materials. You will be surprised. I’ve said it many of times. Weight savings goes far beyond the material you choose to use in the lamination.
> Like stated above some people like to run tabs down, bow down and go. Me well I’m a short board guy when it comes to surfing. I can stand on a wave and go straight down the line or I can get technical and do critical turns in the pocket. You can do both on a short board. Not so much on a long board.


I have. I have also watchEd Corey Cooper do similar to his BOTE boards - not going to get into that but simply say structural integrity goes beyond resilience to blunt impact. Furthermore, at no point have I said anything that claims Chittums do not have anything but the best structural integrity. I’ve simply stated I wanted to know what makes chittum different. If it’s not materials then what? If they cut weight and maintained structural integrity and performance, then how?
I can’t comment to how other people prefer to run their boats. I don’t really see it as a preference. If people want to run bow down and kill economy, speed and put more work on their engine then whatever. As far as surfing, although I’m not good at all at it, I have the same preference as you. It seems more fun to be able to move around and maneuver when riding a wave, however the comparison to a boat is lost on me. If I ever decide to ride waves and catch barrels with my skiff I’ll probably lean towards shorter and lighter as well.


----------



## kylet

commtrd said:


> Lighter construction can absolutely equate to much stronger structural integrity. Reference modern aircraft with high-tech composite radar-evasive skins, racing sailboats, modern automobiles employing much lighter bodies that contribute to greater fuel efficiencies. And of course Chittums with their vastly improved resin / carbon ratios which does indeed yield much greater strength per weight, which is evident and has been so for some time. Other boat builders also employ the vacuum infusion methodology as well, so not just Chittum obviously.
> 
> Finally, what is so funny about experiencing extremely favorable traits like riding in / performing like a highly tuned, finely engineered, well-optimized composite hull formulated of carbon fiber? Because I can promise that in all my 40+ years of owning and running boats, that I have NEVER experienced anything even remotely like this Chittum hull. Trolls always do what trolls will. There is no further argument to be made here. Disregard technological advancement as desired. I don't care what you think. Buy what you want.


Forgive me for omitting all the adjectives, for me they dont provide any more validation... Give me an example of a aircraft made lighter with more structural integrity that a similar use heavier aircraft. What racing sailboats built lighter have more structural integrity than heavier racing sailboats? Automobiles are not more structurally sound, to accommodate for less weight while losing structural integrity, they have designed them to crumple in a manner that protects the passengers added safety harnesses and air pillows everywhere.
I’ve been hearing all about this “vastly improved resin carbon ratio” so far it’s just words for me and many others even though it’s so evident. It’s evident yet here we are still having the discussion. Vacuum Resin is pretty much industry standard now.
I mainly found it funny by your excessive use of adjectives and adverbs. In general a light boat doesn’t have as favorable ride as a heavier boat. Companies aren’t pushing for lighter to create a better ride. They are trying to balance and find a good ride while cutting weight.
lastly I think if you’ll step away from the keyboard a little bit and relax, you realize I’m not trolling you. From the looks of how emotional tied to this subject you are, I assure you if I wanted to set you off it could have been done with far less of my time and effort.


----------



## Rollbar

P.S. I've caught more Red Fish out of my FS128T Yak, than any other boat I have been in.


----------



## Net 30

commtrd said:


> IMHO what makes Chittum skiffs "different" is relative to their construction. Now yall don't go and get your panties in a wad. This may or may not all be attributable to carbon fiber, but for sure it has everything to do with light weight. The boat handles very much differently than a heavier boat does. I can draw comparisons to my other skiff, which was a really nice boat with the exception that it was substantially heavier. It was analogous to a cadillac, with its stately more sedate handling characteristics. Now fast forward to current skiff, this thing is completely different. Not "nervous" by any means, but more like a very spirited thoroughbred race horse. This boat must be driven, it is not a set-it-and-forget-it type ride at all. It will reward the captain with instantaneous response to input from trim tabs, lift, trim, and steering. It is quite surprising how well the hull can be controlled with these inputs, but also it must be tended to at all times. The prime determinant to the particular combination of inputs at any given time is what the engine temperature is doing. That indication will let you know when it is time to make an adjustment to maintain that variable in a safe range. Which is not hard to do at all, but rather it must be trended to enable taking whatever action may be required to keep temperature in a safe range. Some guys may not take to this technical approach to running a boat at all. I personally love this degree of control over what the boat does, and how it does this. The deal is, it is not detrimental to have to monitor the engine temperature BECAUSE in so doing, the most favorable running attitude also corresponds to the most efficient set of variables for any given scenario. Which is a really neat thing to be able to interact so intimately with the controls. This makes the boat a complete blast to drive. This boat is an extremely well-engineered and technical piece of work. I have never owned a boat like this that is so technically oriented. There is a bit of a learning curve involved in getting up to speed with it (pun intended). Hopefully this short dissertation will offer up my observations and impressions so far.
> 
> Combined with the increased challenge of fly fishing and all that entails, the entire pursuit becomes a complete immersion into technical mastery. For the more cerebrally oriented fisherman, owning a boat like this will be the catalyst to enter a new experiential realm. So clean and technical. For other guys, it may be a PITA to drive. I suspect that the majority of guys on here will be the former and not the latter.
> 
> Such a fishing tool. Wow. Levitation? I think so... =)


Hopefully your constant monitoring of engine temps is only due to the fact you have a tunnel? That would be a major PIA on a non-tunnel skiff.


----------



## NealXB2003

kylet said:


> Allison hasn’t defied that theory.


Care to expand on that?


----------



## NealXB2003

If weight = structural integrity, I guess we are all "missing the boat" by not running concrete hulls.

Choice of materials, design, and craftsmanship are all much more important factors than weight. All three of those cost money. Cutting weight by cutting corners is another topic altogether. 

Chopper gun hulls are heavier than hand laid. Does the chopper gun hull have more structural integrity?


----------



## kylet

NealXB2003 said:


> Care to expand on that?


Well like there is nothing that flat out supports what you say, I doubt there is anything that supports what I say. I could bore you with details about my experience and opinion and who I know, but the simplest proof is their sales, and the resale value. Not really here to shit talk any brand. No offense to you but I’m going to stop responding to posts that doesn’t have substantial information what makes chittum different. I have no interest in taking about a 4th or 5th tier bass boat.


----------



## kylet

NealXB2003 said:


> If weight = structural integrity, I guess we are all "missing the boat" by not running concrete hulls.
> 
> Choice of materials, design, and craftsmanship are all much more important factors than weight. All three of those cost money. Cutting weight by cutting corners is another topic altogether.
> 
> Chopper gun hulls are heavier than hand laid. Does the chopper gun hull have more structural integrity?


You’re being silly, do you really think a composite hull would have more structural integrity than concrete?


----------



## commtrd

Lighter hulls can be poled easier. Since they are lighter, they will tend to draft less. Overcoming the physics of a largely flat hull shape will be impossible, however it is possible to enjoy a somewhat better ride in chop than what would traditionally be seen, but of course all relative to a 12* hull. At the end of the day, I am just going fishing and not worry too much about much of anything else. All those worries are going to be right there where I leave them at the dock. Buy what you want, do what you will.


----------



## NealXB2003

kylet said:


> You’re being silly, do you really think a composite hull would have more structural integrity than concrete?


Of the same thickness, yes......


----------



## DeepSouthFly

they all lie and nothing is true. salesmen bullshitting everybody and we all believe it. all boat brands are bull shit just buy what you like if you got the money to do so and do yo thang. the mark up on all these top tier skiffs are ridiculous especially chittums. but we still buy em so whatever.


----------



## Jason M

jsnipes said:


> the ride is much better to be experienced than to try and describe.
> 
> my best attempt is that with the chittum (12 degreee) i have experienced you are able to "ride on top" of the waves instead of going "through them". So, ordinarily when you have a ~15mph wind you typically would back off the throttle some to make the ride more comfortable. My experience with the chittum was if you get going > 30mph you actually get on top of the chop and it's a smoother ride than going 25mph.
> 
> and in other boats (my hells bay being one of them) as you get faster just feels like you are banging into the waves harder vs. getting on top. just my inelegant 2c


This is 100% my experience also. The boat rides way better at 30 in chop than 25. It's crazy and hard to get used to.


----------



## sotilloa1078

kylet said:


> I have. I have also watchEd Corey Cooper do similar to his BOTE boards - not going to get into that but simply say structural integrity goes beyond resilience to blunt impact. Furthermore, at no point have I said anything that claims Chittums do not have anything but the best structural integrity. I’ve simply stated I wanted to know what makes chittum different. If it’s not materials then what? If they cut weight and maintained structural integrity and performance, then how?
> I can’t comment to how other people prefer to run their boats. I don’t really see it as a preference. If people want to run bow down and kill economy, speed and put more work on their engine then whatever. As far as surfing, although I’m not good at all at it, I have the same preference as you. It seems more fun to be able to move around and maneuver when riding a wave, however the comparison to a boat is lost on me. If I ever decide to ride waves and catch barrels with my skiff I’ll probably lean towards shorter and lighter as well.


Yeah you clearly missed the mark on the sarcasm I was putting out there. Hard to compare a skiff to a surf board as far as performance goes.
Any how. I don’t think the point is that they are lighter and MORE structurally sound. It’s that they are lighter and JUST AS structurally sound. There is the difference safe structural integrity and longevity yet a lighter more responsive boat. 
Is it the best softest riding 12 degree boat. Probably not. Due to the weight and lamination of the skiff it will be a lighter more on top ride which isn’t always they smoothest and softest. Where a skiff shines is beyond the ride, it’s when you stand up on the poling platform and start pushing in wind and current that you truly see the benefit of a light, well designed skiff.
Again it’s not that it is MORE structurally sound. But it’s just as structurally sound and lighter.


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## commtrd

Well said. Factually correct, on all points. I think my Professional actually took chop a little better, having a more pronounced vee entry, and A LOT more weight. It was more like a luxury car. More relaxed drive too. But overall, for poling and overall, glad i have the Chittum. Have to get over the sticker shock though. Ouch.


----------



## jsnipes

kylet said:


> Based on length of the hull there is a sweet spot to ride on top of chop. That applies to all boats from a 12 ft John to 42 ft contender. The longer the boat the easier it is to get on top. That’s due to the length between crests. If you have trouble getting on top of chop due to weight, then you do not have enough power.
> The concern with running on top isnt being able to get up there. It’s if you get your prop out of the water and spin a hub.


that's not not true, however, it's a very different ride than other skiffs. i have spent a lot of time on a 17 and 18hpx (both with plenty of power) and the chittum (12) stays on top of the chop in a very different way.

i am not sure why i am arguing w random chittum haters on here (i actually just put a deposit down on a different boat) it just boggles my mind the way folks like to hate on chittum without much cause.

edit: to add, the 2 degree is basically a flat bottom boat and not going to ride as well. my comments were re: the 12 degree version


----------



## Jason M

commtrd said:


> IMHO what makes Chittum skiffs "different" is relative to their construction. Now yall don't go and get your panties in a wad. This may or may not all be attributable to carbon fiber, but for sure it has everything to do with light weight. The boat handles very much differently than a heavier boat does. I can draw comparisons to my other skiff, which was a really nice boat with the exception that it was substantially heavier. It was analogous to a cadillac, with its stately more sedate handling characteristics. Now fast forward to current skiff, this thing is completely different. Not "nervous" by any means, but more like a very spirited thoroughbred race horse. This boat must be driven, it is not a set-it-and-forget-it type ride at all. It will reward the captain with instantaneous response to input from trim tabs, lift, trim, and steering. It is quite surprising how well the hull can be controlled with these inputs, but also it must be tended to at all times. The prime determinant to the particular combination of inputs at any given time is what the engine temperature is doing. That indication will let you know when it is time to make an adjustment to maintain that variable in a safe range. Which is not hard to do at all, but rather it must be trended to enable taking whatever action may be required to keep temperature in a safe range. Some guys may not take to this technical approach to running a boat at all. I personally love this degree of control over what the boat does, and how it does this. The deal is, it is not detrimental to have to monitor the engine temperature BECAUSE in so doing, the most favorable running attitude also corresponds to the most efficient set of variables for any given scenario. Which is a really neat thing to be able to interact so intimately with the controls. This makes the boat a complete blast to drive. This boat is an extremely well-engineered and technical piece of work. I have never owned a boat like this that is so technically oriented. There is a bit of a learning curve involved in getting up to speed with it (pun intended). Hopefully this short dissertation will offer up my observations and impressions so far.
> 
> Combined with the increased challenge of fly fishing and all that entails, the entire pursuit becomes a complete immersion into technical mastery. For the more cerebrally oriented fisherman, owning a boat like this will be the catalyst to enter a new experiential realm. So clean and technical. For other guys, it may be a PITA to drive. I suspect that the majority of guys on here will be the former and not the latter.
> 
> Such a fishing tool. Wow. Levitation? I think so... =)


Did you have a specific temp gauge installed or through the chart plotter?


----------



## kylet

jsnipes said:


> that's not not true, however, it's a very different ride than other skiffs. i have spent a lot of time on a 17 and 18hpx (both with plenty of power) and the chittum (12) stays on top of the chop in a very different way.
> 
> i am not sure why i am arguing w random chittum haters on here (i actually just put a deposit down on a different boat) it just boggles my mind the way folks like to hate on chittum without much cause.
> 
> edit: to add, the 2 degree is basically a flat bottom boat and not going to ride as well. my comments were re: the 12 degree version


Im not sure why you think I’m a chittum hater. In my circle, I’m criticized for considering them.
I have owned many boats. I have been on more. I’ve never been on a boat that couldn’t get on top of waves. I’ve spun hubs multiple times on contender 39’s riding a little too hot on top. The factors that determine if you can do it is if you can get from crest to crest without airing out the prop to the point of spinning a hub. The two things that help in preventing that is length and having enough weight not to air out. I understand completely that it’s different with a chittum. It would be different with a full carbon and a non carbon layup chittum, but gravity and physics are consistent.


----------



## commtrd

commtrd said:


> Yes that happens at 214* F. From what i observed. Stephen has lowered the motor on the plate, and installed the Baumann prop off his Tohatsu 60. Going over there after work for a run. SO it should help with the overheating and will see what the change in props does. Hal told me they are getting a Baumann prop for it now that he is building props again. Now for the rough running and lack of power i dont know. If persistent, may take a trip to the mechanic with diagnostic software i dont have.
> 
> This motor looks to be set up for volumetric rather than pressure for cooling water, i.e. it runs around 3 psi (hopefully?) at over 4000 rpm. It would detect loss of flow rather than water pressure decreasing. I was not running shallow or in grass. Verified screens clear. Hopefully the changes today help resolve issues satisfactorily.
> 
> One other thing discovered: this hull seems to be very much more sensitive to minute changes with trim tabs, motor tilt / trim, loading etc. Much more so than my last skiff. Like the difference between a race car and a minivan.





Jason M said:


> Did you have a specific temp gauge installed or through the chart plotter?


All the engine stuff is displayed on the right side of the chart plotter in a column about 1.5" wide. Very convenient.


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## Jason M

commtrd said:


> All the engine stuff is displayed on the right side of the chart plotter in a column about 1.5" wide. Very convenient.


Simrad? I need to look through my unit


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## JC Designs

😊


----------



## kylet

sotilloa1078 said:


> Yeah you clearly missed the mark on the sarcasm I was putting out there. Hard to compare a skiff to a surf board as far as performance goes.
> Any how. I don’t think the point is that they are lighter and MORE structurally sound. It’s that they are lighter and JUST AS structurally sound. There is the difference safe structural integrity and longevity yet a lighter more responsive boat.
> Is it the best softest riding 12 degree boat. Probably not. Due to the weight and lamination of the skiff it will be a lighter more on top ride which isn’t always they smoothest and softest. Where a skiff shines is beyond the ride, it’s when you stand up on the poling platform and start pushing in wind and current that you truly see the benefit of a light, well designed skiff.
> Again it’s not that it is MORE structurally sound. But it’s just as structurally sound and lighter.


Gotcha, how do they cut weight and make them as structurally sound? Not trying to be argumentative, I try not to presume others thoughts but for me that’s the obvious question.


----------



## Stevie

The video clip is an example of running in rough conditions . Usually we trim the bow down more to level, but with the size of the waves, I didn’t want to stuff one. We encounter 2’ chop on any given day crossing or returning. We knew a front was arriving on the specific day in the video, but stayed out because we were seeing lots of fish...


__
http://instagr.am/p/B43kZA3hl_F/


----------



## JC Designs

kylet said:


> Gotcha, how do they cut weight and make them as structurally sound? Not trying to be argumentative, I try not to presume others thoughts but for me that’s the obvious question.


Good engineering, higher quality raw materials with higher stress, load, sheer ratings than the others are using is all it takes. A simple phone call to the manufacturer of the core, carbon, and resin can yield you pretty much what ever properties you want or need within reason. All it takes is some knowledge and cash!


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> I’m not calling you stupid because I don’t even know you, but this was just an obnoxiously stupid thing to say my friend! If comparing a lightweight fiberglass/polyester hull to a heavy built fiberglass polyester hull then yes I agree. Problem is, we aren’t! We are discussing a well engineered lamination schedule using a material designed to be strong and light! CF is 3 times stiffer than fiberglass and everyone knows the benefits and strength gains of vinyl ester and epoxy resins over polyester! There are plenty of early whiprays out there proving day in and day out that a lightweight build can be more than structurally sound! If you are going to talk physics, or compare something from an engineering stand point, you need to know the materials and what the capabilities of the combined materials as a whole are.


Well I appreciate you not calling me stupid, I guess in turn I won’t call you stupid. Not very necessary but since we are stating the things we won’t do, there you go. I do understand the weight differences and strength difference between materials. And I was not referring to the difference in hulls with a different layups. Even chittums have different layups and thus different weights, so I was ignoring the obvious and focusing on what makes chittum different. Are you saying the material chittum uses is superior to other boat builders?


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> Good engineering, higher quality raw materials with higher stress, load, sheer ratings than the others are using is all it takes. A simple phone call to the manufacturer of the core, carbon, and resin can yield you pretty much what ever properties you want or need within reason. All it takes is some knowledge and cash!


I’ve made that phone call. I’ve made it to several builders. The call are all very similar in context.


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## kylet

JC Designs said:


> Good engineering, higher quality raw materials with higher stress, load, sheer ratings than the others are using is all it takes. A simple phone call to the manufacturer of the core, carbon, and resin can yield you pretty much what ever properties you want or need within reason. All it takes is some knowledge and cash!


So chittum is cutting weight by using better quality materials than other builders? And they are compensating the strength and ride through design and engineering that is superior to other builders?


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## JC Designs

kylet said:


> Well I appreciate you not calling me stupid, I guess in turn I won’t call you stupid. Not very necessary but since we are stating the things we won’t do, there you go. I do understand the weight differences and strength difference between materials. And I was not referring to the difference in a hull with a different layups. Even chittums have different layups this different weights, so I was ignoring the obvious and focusing on what makes chittum different. Are you saying the material chittum uses is superior to other boat builders?


It very well could be! Not all carbon is created equal, just as not all fiberglass is created equal. Your argument was that it defies the laws of physics to build lighter and stronger. I pointed out that it doesn’t. Others have also. I happen to know a little bit “just a smidge” about the materials used in as well as engineering a laminate schedule! So perhaps, it is the engineering and the quality of materials used in the Chittum that makes them different? BTW, I’m not a fan boy of any of the brands mentioned in this thread... well, maybe one if I slipped and mentioned X-Caliber “oops, guess I just did”. I am however a fan of quality materials, craftsmanship, good design, and engineering when it comes to most things. My next build’s calculated dry weight for an 18’ hull is 250-275lbs for a one off skiff and I guarantee it will be structurally sound and abused to the ragged edge of it’s limits.

Good engineering, quality materials and components! All it takes.


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## JC Designs

👍👍


----------



## Str8-Six

Stevie said:


> The video clip is an example of running in rough conditions . Usually we trim the bow down more to level, but with the size of the waves, I didn’t want to stuff one. We encounter 2’ chop on any given day crossing or returning. We knew a front was arriving on the specific day in the video, but stayed out because we were seeing lots of fish...
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B43kZA3hl_F/


Been there many times.. looks like the Chittum handled it very well. This video is a good example of what running a skiff in heavy chop looks like. I think some people assume that some skiffs can run fast in this.

I’ve also noticed fishing to be extremely good right before a storm comes through which has got me in trouble multiple times.


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> It very well could be! Not all carbon is created equal, just as not all fiberglass is created equal. Your argument was that it defies the laws of physics to build lighter and stronger. I pointed out that it doesn’t. Others have also. I happen to know a little bit “just a smidge” about the materials used in as well as engineering a laminate schedule! So perhaps, it is the engineering and the quality of materials used in the Chittum that makes them different? BTW, I’m not a fan boy of any of the brands mentioned in this thread... well, maybe one if I slipped and mentioned X-Caliber “oops, guess I just did”. I am however a fan of quality materials, craftsmanship, good design, and engineering when it comes to most things. My next build’s calculated dry weight for an 18’ hull is 250-275lbs for a one off skiff and I guarantee it will be structurally sound and abused to the ragged edge of it’s limits.
> 
> Good engineering, quality materials and components! All it takes.


I still disagree on that if both use the same materials. The one with the more material will be more structurally sound. That’s physics. It’s a bit naive to compare physics of two different/quality materials. If that’s the difference then, I’m sorry but no one has said that till now page 10. What is the difference in the carbon material between Chittum, Hells Bay, ECC,Maverick and Drake?


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> Maybe, I’m just a dumb ass that you like to argue with though so what do I know really? Again, you referred to the laws of physics. I pointed out you were wrong. Sorry if it stung a little but there are ways to produce a better, lighter, stronger product than the next guy without defying the laws of physics.


I haven’t argued with anything you’ve said. Do you think we are arguing?

and what do you mean maybe? You just stated they use superior materials. Do they or do they not?


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## JC Designs

kylet said:


> I still disagree on that if both use the same materials. The one with the more material will be more structurally sound. That’s physics. It’s a bit naive to compare physics of two different/quality materials. If that’s the difference then, I’m sorry but no one has said that till now page 10. What is the difference in the carbon material between Chittum, Hells Bay, ECC,Maverick and Drake?


Well that is a great question and quite possibly one that only each of these builders can answer. A quick google search will yield a generic answer in that there are multiple modulus carbon fibers available in different tow sizes all offering varying degrees of stiffness and strength for particular applications to handle specific loads. Same goes for the resins available, too many variables to count and there are custom blends of both resin and textile that are most likely used by the higher end builders and would most certainly be proprietary.
It is not about how much material is used, but rather how said material is used.


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## JC Designs

I never said with certainty that they did use higher quality materials, I stated that is how a lighter and stronger product can be built coupled with good engineering is all.


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## kylet

JC Designs said:


> I never said with certainty that they did use higher quality materials, I stated that is how a lighter and stronger product can be built coupled with good engineering is all.


Yeah I’m really only here to know how they do it. I realize the possibly exist for a superior product to be used to achieve better results. If that were the case my question would be why other companies aren’t using said product but I’d obviously save that for another thread as this one is for what makes chittum different. I get that several are agitated but we are now 11 pages in and I still don’t know.


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> Well that is a great question and quite possibly one that only each of these builders can answer. A quick google search will yield a generic answer in that there are multiple modulus carbon fibers available in different tow sizes all offering varying degrees of stiffness and strength for particular applications to handle specific loads. Same goes for the resins available, too many variables to count and there are custom blends of both resin and textile that are most likely used by the higher end builders and would most certainly be proprietary.
> It is not about how much material is used, but rather how said material is used.


I kind of figured that, but as I said earlier, don’t like to assume. It seems that if that is the thing that sets them a part then someone who has purchased one would have gotten that answer though. You know as good as I do that each builder has proprietary claims.


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## JC Designs

I get it, but one can't expect them to just release proprietary processes either. They all claim to build differently. I’ve never had the pleasure of wet testing a Chittum btw. But I have many many skiffs, offshore, bass, and race boats and the differences between builders can sometime be eye opening. Maybe Chittum nailed it with the r and d years they put in?


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> I get it, but one can't expect them to just release proprietary processes either. They all claim to build differently. I’ve never had the pleasure of wet testing a Chittum btw. But I have many many skiffs, offshore, bass, and race boats and the differences between builders can sometime be eye opening. Maybe Chittum nailed it with the r and d years they put in?


Yeah, I don’t expect them to. It seems like this would be the thread to learn though if that were the case. I personally only had one (not through the Internet) experience with a chIttum owner. He owned several (12 degree and 2). I think he’s on this forum. He’s from Texas and was doing guiding in Mexico or the Yucatán. He bought my buddy’s Marquesa sight unseen after fishing on one on a tarpon trip in apalach. He was getting it for down there (Mexico/Yucatán?) due to running a ways across open water.
I keep telling my friends when discussing boats that it’s the next one I’m going to look at buying. If I do get one I’ll hop back in this thread and hopefully answer some of my own questions. I can assure at that price I’ll know exactly what sets them a part.


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## Stevie

I’m not a boat builder, or technical person, but I pay attention to details. What I tried to illustrate on the first posts was....

1- Chittum infuses the hull all in one shot, outer skin, core, inner skin all at once. I don’t see that on other build threads. Usually it’s many passes... infusion of outer skin... then suddenly core is attached to the outer skin... then the inner skin appears (it’s not clear if they’re infusing the 2nd skin and core.... all of which to me must mean more resin, chop, bonding putty etc, WEIGHT...which is not the case with Chittum ..

2- There’s minimal resin in Chittums due their infusion process and to little to no scoring of core... other builders have squares cut throughout there core to absorb resin. 

3- The Chittum liner provides the only bulkheads...(and no sides on the liner), also there’s probably a lot of strength from the Chittum cambered decks .... other similar sized boats have multiple bulkheads in the bow etc to shore up the hull...

4- Chittum is making the lightest class of boats Mangrove/ LM2 with 1/2” core (same as the very 1st Whiprays), that light type build went away as HB got in production mode by maybe 2000...

5- there’s a specific model / build classs for 3 different weight classes of power on each boat — within each one, there are 3 options of carbon inclusion

6- The base model 12 degree Mangrove floats in 7” or slightly less— my experience is most other 2 degree boats draft that much or more... my Caimen and my 178 certainly did. The price of the 10% carbon Mangrove ($54,500) is a similar price as competitors in the same top tier of builders...not exorbitantly more...

Later, I stated that most of the value of the Chittum as far as weight , draft and hull design is built into the simple 10% boat... you don’t need to spend for carbon to enjoy the advantages

Will step out and make some other comparisons:

The fishing platform of the Chittum 18 boats is similar in size to the HB Guide...

My experience with the LM2 — 2 degree Mangrove build — is draft 5” loaded with 2 guys...and poling ease compare with the earliest Whiprays, (I own Whipray#7) but you have a 18 foot boat that can run in the upper 30s maybe low 40s with Tohatsu 60.

The 12 degree Mangrove Chittum again compares in draft to a 178 (I ran a 178 for 5 years) ... but you get the great ride with a 12 degree boat...

Based on the limited time I poled a 21 , poling wise it will compete against Marquesas, 18 HPX, ... if powered with a 350, it will compete with the speeds of a Lake & Bays....but it’s a 21, so way better ride, and again, you can really pole it, and it’s draft is 7” on the lightest version, which is powered with a 115.


----------



## Matts

sjrobin said:


> No worries Stevie, just an old, out of touch Texas fish hunter with a special dislike for hype. I have spent hours talking to Hal (boat shows/events) about everything from ranches to fishing big game in Australia, but skiff building did not come up much. Any negatives I mentioned and the response is operator error. He is fun to talk to because of his experiences. Zero sales pitch to me. I think deep down he regrets selling the Hells Bay brand. The hype comes from the owners and George, just the way it should. I actually recommend Chittum skiffs to people that don't pole a skiff much or have good working knowledge of the water they intend to fish. I know of a few 2 deg sales I have made for them,
> Kids in t-shirts assembling a complex product probably triggered my response.


I love poling my 2 degree. Not only is super quiet but it’s so stable that I’m not near as tired from trying to maintain balance all day like my old Mosquito. Friends that are 225 can walk the gunnels and we stay put.


----------



## NealXB2003

Only the resin that is absorbed adds strength. Any resin not absorbed only adds weight. There is several ways that excess resin can be removed. But that's one area where weight can be cut without affecting strength. It's just time consuming to do so.


----------



## JC Designs

NealXB2003 said:


> Only the resin that is absorbed adds strength. Any resin not absorbed only adds weight. There is several ways that excess resin can be removed. But that's one area where weight can be cut without affecting strength. It's just time consuming to do so.


Close! But excess resin does more than add weight, it also makes for a brittle weaker structure.In most cases a 60/40 fiber resin ratio is about perfect for strength/weight. Tough to achieve though, infusion or pre preg is about the only way unless you are real good and weight all materials then vac bag it after a wet lay up!


----------



## JC Designs

Does any body know if they are post curing? Maybe @Stevie can find out?


----------



## Rollbar

JC Designs said:


> My next build’s calculated dry *weight for an 18’ hull is 250-275lbs* for a one off skiff
> Good engineering, quality materials and components! All it takes.


Now that is sweet!
I could get behind that.


----------



## kylet

Correct me if I’m wrong but it looks like all their 18s use with the base 10% carbon use the same material and build process. The legacy which is coined as their premier model is 650 lbs and can handle up to 140 hp (without performance upgrade). The Snake bight and Laguna Madre are the same materials and build process. The have 2 less hatches and a smaller shrimp/crab well instead of a 30 gallon well. It is rated for 90 (without performance upgrade). They are 100 lbs lighter.
The mangrove which is their lightest model uses same materials and build process with thinner core and a smaller lamination schedule. It is rated for 60 hp. It is 200 lbs less weight than the legacy. 
I think all that really explains how they cut weight. And the 650lbs of the legacy isn’t that farfetched when looking at a 12 degree with 10% carbon. This is all from the description and specs on their website.

looking at all that I think my preferred option would be the the snake bight 12 degree. I don’t need the extra hatches and have no use for a 30 gallon well. that’s a 60k starting with a f70. That’s not terribly higher for similar class boats from other builders, around 10k or so, but admittedly some of the standard features listed which I assume is included in that base Price arent included in the base on other boats.


----------



## sjrobin

Matts said:


> I love poling my 2 degree. Not only is super quiet but it’s so stable that I’m not near as tired from trying to maintain balance all day like my old Mosquito. Friends that are 225 can walk the gunnels and we stay put.


The Chittum LM/tunnel/nontunnel with Tohatsu is marketed and built for you, Stevie, and Commtrd. I have met all of you and understand your skiff requirements. Not that different than most avid sight fishers. Floats shallow and easier to push plus planes very shallow so water knowledge is not required. I have fished two LM tunnels and the non tunnel all set up the same way. I know what the skiffs are capable of both on plane and on the pole. Some guides will like them for the same reasons. I do not like them in the wind either on plane or on the pole. The wind blows at a consistent nice clip in Texas. .I like to plane the skiff long distances at times in almost any wind to hunt fish and some of my clients are older grandmothers and grandfathers. I hunt fish in a 2019 HB Pro with a layer of carbon/innegra instead of kevlar in the other skiffs I have owned. It is great all around Texas skiff for guiding.


----------



## sotilloa1078

kylet said:


> Correct me if I’m wrong but it looks like all their 18s use with the base 10% carbon use the same material and build process. The legacy which is coined as their premier model is 650 lbs and can handle up to 140 hp (without performance upgrade). The Snake bight and Laguna Madre are the same materials and build process. The have 2 less hatches and a smaller shrimp/crab well instead of a 30 gallon well. It is rated for 90 (without performance upgrade). They are 100 lbs lighter.
> The mangrove which is their lightest model uses same materials and build process with thinner core and a smaller lamination schedule. It is rated for 60 hp. It is 200 lbs less weight than the legacy.
> I think all that really explains how they cut weight. And the 650lbs of the legacy isn’t that farfetched when looking at a 12 degree with 10% carbon. This is all from the description and specs on their website.
> 
> looking at all that I think my preferred option would be the the snake bight 12 degree. I don’t need the extra hatches and have no use for a 30 gallon well. that’s a 60k starting with a f70. That’s not terribly higher for similar class boats from other builders, around 10k or so, but admittedly some of the standard features listed which I assume is included in that base Price arent included in the base on other boats.


the build process are similar but the legacy is a more labor intensive build due to the fact that the entire boat is painted
And you make a very good point that the base price on a chittum includes things that would considered options/upgrades for some other manufacturers.


----------



## commtrd

sjrobin said:


> The Chittum LM with Tohatsu is marketed and built for you.


Apparently the Laguna Madre II (tunnel or not) is built and marketed for several of us in south TX. Even snobby narcissistic guides...


----------



## Stevie

This IG post shows the comparatively large fishing platform and cambered deck on Chittum 18 (thanks to @jglidden for the great drone shot):


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bwf5aCDDPBA/

Yet the waterline beam at transom is very similar to a 178 or HPX... (glad she’s running well, Keith):


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## prinjm6

Stevie,

I wish you would be transparent as to why your Caimen weighed more than what a Caimen built today would be. I know why, you know why. When you want hatches in a boat that doesnt have tooling for hatches to be made from a mold and hatches are added by hand they will weigh more among other things in your Caimen build.


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## ifsteve

I get a kick when i see comments like a certain boat is only 10K more than a similar skiff of another top builder. Certainly its all in the eye of the beholder. But what I see is that 10k amounts to 20%: $60k vs 50K. And in reality I think the difference is actually more than that. The Snake Bight is indeed $60K which is the base price, hardly the out the door price. I was half tempted to fill in the order sheet on Chittum and get a quote but would be not fair to them since I am not interested in their boat. But in looking over the build sheet I suspect that a similar rigged Snake Bight to a on the water skiff like mine is probably more like $20K not $10K. Now again it may be worth it to some. I would guess that the only boat that would really apply to would be the other over priced top end skiff.


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## finbully

A ton of discussion on here. A mix of good and fake information I suspect. A big reason I choose the skiffs I've bought (that helped tipped "the scales") are trim tab placement. I prefer recessed trim tabs. Why? A couple of reasons:

1) less things extending from the stern to get fishing line zipped off on
2) hydrodynamically speaking, recess trim tabs deflect a lot of the water they displace to the bottom of the hull instead of to open water
What is this benefit? More lifting power at the same tab angle as opposed to trim tabs that extend beyond the transom. The added water pressure recessed trim tabs provide are effectively a free energy lifting device. Water does not compress, so that is why this benefit physically exists. From an engineering standpoint it is similar to an aircraft traveling close to water surface creating a pressure wave that helps keep the aircraft aloft at slower speeds than in normal flight. Remember Captain Scully's commercial airliner ditching on the Hudson River? This pressure wave is what he used to save many lives. It would be good to hear why this is not incorporated into such a revolutionary design and build technique this thread is originally about.


----------



## kylet

Personally I’m at a grand total of 0 fish lost due to trim tabs. 
The idea that recessed tabs perform better is another one of those defies physics deals. I can definitely see someone using that as a sales pitch though.
I haven’t ran an evo x but I’ve ran a maverick and I’ve ran boats with all different lengths of tabs. The longer the tab, the more responsive. I could see the argument that you had a wider range of adjustment with recessed being that it is less responsive.


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## ifsteve

kylet said:


> Personally I’m at a grand total of 0 fish lost due to trim tabs.
> The idea that recessed tabs perform better is another one of those defies physics deals. I can definitely see someone using that as a sales pitch though.
> I haven’t ran an evo x but I’ve ran a maverick and I’ve ran boats with all different lengths of tabs. The longer the tab, the more responsive. I could see the argument that you had a wider range of adjustment with recessed being that it is less responsive.


Yeah trim tabs are right up there with my most important features when looking for a new boat.....lol.


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## jsnipes

JC Designs said:


> Does any body know if they are post curing? Maybe @Stevie can find out?


I don't believe they post cure. Drake does post-cure and has a custom built 'oven' to do so for all parts.


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## finbully

kylet said:


> Personally I’m at a grand total of 0 fish lost due to trim tabs.


Me too!


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## sotilloa1078

Yeah the whole trim tab catches line thing is negligible. I’ve seen line wrap around a stern trim tab and maverick trim tabs alike. It’s actually easier to the get the line off the transom mounted tab when it occurs. So that’s a plus.


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## finbully

Maverick holds the patent is the real answer.


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## Jason M

If recessed tabs would be a benefit or hindrance with the step in the hull is the real question. 

The way I figure my tabs at 11 inches long, I have the metal not fiber ones. My skiff is almost a 19' skiff for running purposes. 

I recall a long time ago that the keys guides were glassing in the recessed tabs and putting in traditional tabs on their Mavs.


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## finbully

Good history information. Do you know if this is still going on?


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## Jason M

finbully said:


> Good history information. Do you know if this is still going on?


That's a good question and I don't know. I'm sure that Mav addressed why this was happening.


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## texasag07

I like the recessed tabs on the Maverick, but it isn’t a buying decision deal breaker. The best would be a skiff designed not to need them or finite adjustment. My old copperhead needed them to run correctly and you were always messing with them.

When you have pushed a boat in water that is essentially to shallow ( which I would say most of us have) external Transom tabs will at times want to dig or stick in the mud/soft bottom and make it harder to get out, backup, crab walk when poling.

If you haven’t had someone while fishing let their fly fall overboard and not pay attention to it hence getting hung on a tab then you must fish with better fisherman than me. I haven’t had that happen on recessed tabs.

It’s less about fish getting hung up on tabs as the fisherman getting hung up on them from my mileage.

I feel they do work better off the transom for responsiveness. 

The 18 Hpx with a 115 can be ran without any tab for normal driving and to be honest I don’t need much if any tab to adjust left to right.

The new evo v I test rode requires even less tab input from the driver, the boat just want to hop up and run.

If I had the choice I would choose recessed if I had an option they are more cumbersome to work on though if you have a tab issue.


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## Bonesonthebrain

kylet said:


> Personally I’m at a grand total of 0 fish lost due to trim tabs.
> The idea that recessed tabs perform better is another one of those defies physics deals. I can definitely see someone using that as a sales pitch though.
> I haven’t ran an evo x but I’ve ran a maverick and I’ve ran boats with all different lengths of tabs. The longer the tab, the more responsive. I could see the argument that you had a wider range of adjustment with recessed being that it is less responsive.


You keep saying nonsense about defying physics, just not true. If you take an I beam and add material at the center of it, the gain in strength is zero, when loaded as an I beam is meant to be loaded. The material at the center is at zero stress, so you can add all the material you want, it gains zero strength. So here is the example of more weight adding zero structural integrity. Why do you think they use I beams? High strength to weight ratio.

The recessed tab will have an effect on the water pressure on the hull, fact, not defying physics. An outboard tab will not have an effect on the hull water pressure, but does have a lever advantage due to being farther from the CG of the boat. Which has the greater effect, I do not know with more info, but the earlier statement of defying physics is outright wrong.

Load distribution also has a lot to due with structural integrity, correctly done a lighter structure can definitely be stronger and have longer fatigue life. This is how physics works. Have been a Mechanical Engineer designing construction equipment for 36 years, believe I understand physics at this point in my life.


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## Stevie

jsnipes said:


> I don't believe they post cure. Drake does post-cure and has a custom built 'oven' to do so for all parts.


I think your correct, John, Chittum doesn’t post cure— have never heard about it. Look forward to hearing about your build!

Best,


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## JC Designs

Bonesonthebrain said:


> You keep saying nonsense about defying physics, just not true. If you take an I beam and add material at the center of it, the gain in strength is zero, when loaded as an I beam is meant to be loaded. The material at the center is at zero stress, so you can add all the material you want, it gains zero strength. So here is the example of more weight adding zero structural integrity. Why do you think they use I beams? High strength to weight ratio.
> 
> The recessed tab will have an effect on the water pressure on the hull, fact, not defying physics. An outboard tab will not have an effect on the hull water pressure, but does have a lever advantage due to being farther from the CG of the boat. Which has the greater effect, I do not know with more info, but the earlier statement of defying physics is outright wrong.
> 
> Load distribution also has a lot to due with structural integrity, correctly done a lighter structure can definitely be stronger and have longer fatigue life. This is how physics works. Have been a Mechanical Engineer designing construction equipment for 36 years, believe I understand physics at this point in my life.


Thank you! You explained it well. I understand it but can’t get the words out at times! I wish folks would learn how to understand just how all these materials, design, and engineering come together to create a structure... especially a composite one! I’m no high rise builder nor am I an egineer by trade or degree, but I do study composites and composite structure daily and I just can’t get through to some of these folks!


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## brokeoff

Exactly how much lighter is a Chittum than the competition? It seems like the draw of a Chittum is the 12 degree boat that can handle a bit of slop in a package that can be poled more easily than the competition. But just what is that difference?


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## commtrd

Dont know what a 12* hull weighs per specific construction. My LM 2 hull @ 18' and 2* tunnel weighs 350. I had to get BMT weighed for title application in TX, the gross weight came in at 1074 and i had 5 gals non-ethanol fuel in the tank. My hull is the full carbon build, the trailer is a galvanized steel Ramlin, outboard is a Tohatsu 60 short shaft. No troll motor, no power pole, with poling platform and spider basket / casting platform. 1 battery. I think this would be the absolute lightest build possible to buy from Chittum AFAIK.


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## JC Designs

commtrd said:


> Dont know what a 12* hull weighs per specific construction. My LM 2 hull @ 18' and 2* tunnel weighs 350. I had to get BMT weighed for title application in TX, the gross weight came in at 1074 and i had 5 gals non-ethanol fuel in the tank. My hull is the full carbon build, the trailer is a galvanized steel Ramlin, outboard is a Tohatsu 60 short shaft. No troll motor, no power pole, with poling platform and spider basket / casting platform. 1 battery. I think this would be the absolute lightest build possible to buy from Chittum AFAIK.


You need to bring it and my boy @Smackdaddy53 back to Fl.and lets go catch ya’ll a Nature Coast Big fish Slam! If it can get to these places then Chittum is the creme de la creme! I’m talkin’ the big girls btw, 30 plus” red, 35 plus “ snuke”, 60lb or better poon, and if we can get @SomaliPirate to go along we’ll have to do a biggest hardhead calcutta! 🤣
Hope to complete my “man cave/ guest cabin” this year so accommodations will be handled!


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## JC Designs

BTW, @SomaliPirate, the sheepies are stacking up in that secret spot I was telling you about a while back. Just remember the secret fly and you will do good!!!


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## finbully

Those enthralled about weight differences of top shelf flats boat regardless of manufacturer make sure you take a dump before you go fishing. Don't carry that excess weight around.


----------



## brokeoff

commtrd said:


> Dont know what a 12* hull weighs per specific construction. My LM 2 hull @ 18' and 2* tunnel weighs 350. I had to get BMT weighed for title application in TX, the gross weight came in at 1074 and i had 5 gals non-ethanol fuel in the tank. My hull is the full carbon build, the trailer is a galvanized steel Ramlin, outboard is a Tohatsu 60 short shaft. No troll motor, no power pole, with poling platform and spider basket / casting platform. 1 battery. I think this would be the absolute lightest build possible to buy from Chittum AFAIK.


Good point. It doesn’t only apply to the 12*. I guess that’s just what would be applicable where I fish.

So the question I have is what does a comparable Dolphin, Maverick or HB weigh? Also, I think we are saying we don’t need to keep power consistent because a lighter Chittum hull can get the same performance out of less HP than a heavier hull with more HP.


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## kylet

Bonesonthebrain said:


> You keep saying nonsense about defying physics, just not true. If you take an I beam and add material at the center of it, the gain in strength is zero, when loaded as an I beam is meant to be loaded. The material at the center is at zero stress, so you can add all the material you want, it gains zero strength. So here is the example of more weight adding zero structural integrity. Why do you think they use I beams? High strength to weight ratio.
> 
> The recessed tab will have an effect on the water pressure on the hull, fact, not defying physics. An outboard tab will not have an effect on the hull water pressure, but does have a lever advantage due to being farther from the CG of the boat. Which has the greater effect, I do not know with more info, but the earlier statement of defying physics is outright wrong.
> 
> Load distribution also has a lot to due with structural integrity, correctly done a lighter structure can definitely be stronger and have longer fatigue life. This is how physics works. Have been a Mechanical Engineer designing construction equipment for 36 years, believe I understand physics at this point in my life.


None of it is non sense it is literally physics. More mass and density equals more strength. Obviously I am aware that there would be a possibility of removing material in a certain area by compensating in others thus resulting in less materials is a possibility. Otherwise why would I be asking how they achieve that. I’m stating the physics with the same understood controls that are understood with the laws of physics. I’m not going to state that the reduction of material equaling less strength has the control of using the same material or using the same design. I don’t really see any point in stating the obvious, but you assuming that I don’t understand the possibility doesn’t really make sense if I’m asking how they defy it. If variables couldn’t play a factor then why ask how they are able to do it? If the answer was move material in a different spot and compensate for strength, then that would be a pretty good thing to know. It make much more sense then going by the assumption that somehow the acquired better materials, and some other imaginative methods, which is simply not the case. They cut weight by reducing the amount of features. They cut weight on Mamgrove by using thinner core and reducing lamination schedule. And as physics would suggest, they don’t claim the mangrove to have the same structural integrity as their other boats with more material.

the recessed tabs isn’t changing the water pressure on the hull infront of the tab no differently than tabs on the back of the hull. the difference would be how the water affect the hull behind And under the tab. The idea that you get lift Because water doesn’t compress ignores the fact that the water displaces. You say it has an affect on the water pressure on the hull, what affect does it have? How much increased force on the hull does it have? Show me the math behind that for both designs. As far as the rule of the lever, science is against you on placing the fulcrum further from the load you are lifting. While the load would be easier to lift with a more forward fulcrum, it would similarly lift at a quicker rate and with more range with the fulcrum closer to the lifted load. That’s really basic science.

I also have an engineering degree and a second degree in math. I am only 34. so I have only worked in the engineering field for 14 years.

also, like has been stated in here, and you are welcome to try both designs. Recessed tabs are less responsive. Run both and see, there’s really not any point in arguing.


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## jsnipes

finbully said:


> Those enthralled about weight differences of top shelf flats boat regardless of manufacturer make sure you take a dump before you go fishing. Don't carry that excess weight around.


i always stop at buc-ee's in the morning. very serious fisherman


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## brokeoff

finbully said:


> Those enthralled about weight differences of top shelf flats boat regardless of manufacturer make sure you take a dump before you go fishing. Don't carry that excess weight around.


This is kind of what I’m getting at. But it’s really hard to compare without numbers. It would be nice to have the weight of the hull, the engine, the rigging etc. I think in a Chittum going from 50% carbon to 100% you save 50#. I can loose 50# and my wife would be much happier if it came off of my body to than a hull.

Here’s my other question. What is the limiting factor when poling? If technique is perfect then is the speed of poling limited by the pusherman’s strength and endurance or is it limited by the strength of the push pole?


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## commtrd

Wish there was a Bucees on the way to Port Mansfield / SPI. Don't know how many times I had to really hold on to get to Whataburger in Raymondville... =)


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## Smackdaddy53

These threads are great entertainment. The internet skiff scientists and hydrodynamic engineers come out of the wood work. 
Keith I’m glad you are happy brother. Let’s try to go when it cools off some. I’ll make sure to take a dump before I get to the ramp.


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## Bonesonthebrain

Kylet Too much wrong in your post to even start. Just one example, your statement about ignoring that water displaces. How do you think the water gets displaced? A force must be applied to displace the water. According to Newton’s Third Law, every force has an equal and opposite force, where do you think the opposite force is at? The tab and hull. The displace water for a transom mounted tap gets pushed up, but has no resistance except for air. With a recessed tab, some of the displaced water from the side of the tab will push up against the hull. Similar to compression plate on a lower unit.

As to your fulcrum statements, you are inconsistent in what you are claiming. The further a force is away from the CG, the moment arm, the less force is needed to lift the boat. The force comes from the water impinging on the tab, so the further the tab is away from the CG, the less force is need to lift the boat. The same sized tab closer to the CG can be more responsive, which is what a recessed tab is, and yes a longer tab will be more responsive, regardless of where it is for the same sized tab. Your latest post contradicts what you stated in post #225.

Please explain how anything I have stated defies the laws of Physics? I already showed you how your statement on strength and weight was incorrect, which you still have not acknowledged and responded with a rambling incoherent diatribe.

What discipline is your engineering degree in? What do you actually do?


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## JC Designs

🤙


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## kylet

brokeoff said:


> This is kind of what I’m getting at. But it’s really hard to compare without numbers. It would be nice to have the weight of the hull, the engine, the rigging etc. I think in a Chittum going from 50% carbon to 100% you save 50#. I can loose 50# and my wife would be much happier if it came off of my body to than a hull.
> 
> Here’s my other question. What is the limiting factor when poling? If technique is perfect then is the speed of poling limited by the pusherman’s strength and endurance or is it limited by the strength of the push pole?


Chittum claims a 100 lb difference between 10% to 50%, and a 100 lb difference between a 50% and 100%.
But as far as poling, a few factors to think about imo is displacement of volume. That’s not really an ease of poling issue, but rather an issue that can affect the reason you are poling. A larger volume boat has a larger presence. One of the big things for me as far as ease of poling is the amount of freeboard and wind. I’d say that creates more resistance in my experience than weight or drag from lack of draft.


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> No disrespect meant for “most of the engineers” on this site but the rest can take their degree and wipe their ass with them. I’ll take my real world knowledge and experience and you can take your computer models and theories. You older guys know what I am saying here. It all looks great on paper then the damn boat falls apart after a year or weights 3x’s what it should.


That’s fun to say and all, but no one forced you to participate. Take your ball and go home and tout your real world experience all you want. No one really cares.


----------



## kylet

Bonesonthebrain said:


> Kylet Too much wrong in your post to even start. Just one example, your statement about ignoring that water displaces. How do you think the water gets displaced? A force must be applied to displace the water. According to Newton’s Third Law, every force has an equal and opposite force, where do you think the opposite force is at? The tab and hull. The displace water for a transom mounted tap gets pushed up, but has no resistance except for air. With a recessed tab, some of the displaced water from the side of the tab will push up against the hull. Similar to compression plate on a lower unit.
> 
> As to your fulcrum statements, you are inconsistent in what you are claiming. The further a force is away from the CG, the moment arm, the less force is needed to lift the boat. The force comes from the water impinging on the tab, so the further the tab is away from the CG, the less force is need to lift the boat. The same sized tab closer to the CG can be more responsive, which is what a recessed tab is, and yes a longer tab will be more responsive, regardless of where it is for the same sized tab. Your latest post contradicts what you stated in post #225.
> 
> Please explain how anything I have stated defies the laws of Physics? I already showed you how your statement on strength and weight was incorrect, which you still have not acknowledged and responded with a rambling incoherent diatribe.
> 
> What discipline is your engineering degree in? What do you actually do?


the little displaced water from the tab that does find the hull is being displace to the side of the tabs. Similarly what do you think the water is doing to the hull in front of the non recessed tab where your recessed tab is sitting as far as Newtons third law is concerned? I am not inconsistent in my fulcrum statements but really the point we are arguing isn’t about the fulcrum, it’s about where on the lever we are creating upward force. 

people haven’t showed me that my statement on strength and weight is contradicted. People have offered several scenarios in which everything is a variable and there are really no controls. That’s not scientific and counterproductive to find a conclusion which if anything has been shown.

I almost didn’t post my education and experience. I genuinely believe as far as conversations like this play out on a forum, that posting that information at the end of context is an affirmation that even the author of the context was not confident enough in the context thus needing to provide additional validation that can neither be validated or honestly compared. There is nothing I can respond to you with that is going to provide any validation to you so in an effort to avoid that rabbit hole, I’m not giving you that info.


----------



## sotilloa1078

commtrd said:


> Dont know what a 12* hull weighs per specific construction. My LM 2 hull @ 18' and 2* tunnel weighs 350. I had to get BMT weighed for title application in TX, the gross weight came in at 1074 and i had 5 gals non-ethanol fuel in the tank. My hull is the full carbon build, the trailer is a galvanized steel Ramlin, outboard is a Tohatsu 60 short shaft. No troll motor, no power pole, with poling platform and spider basket / casting platform. 1 battery. I think this would be the absolute lightest build possible to buy from Chittum AFAIK.


that’s awesome. Your entire rig weighs as much as some skiffs! lol

Skylet have you been in a Chittum yet?


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## kylet

sotilloa1078 said:


> that’s awesome. Your entire rig weighs as much as some skiffs! lol
> 
> Skylet have you been in a Chittum yet?


I haven’t. Like I said, and have shown with my participation in this thread, I’m pretty eager to see what’s it’s all about.

I postedearlier that my only real life (not via internet) experience with a Chittum owner was a guywho had several and was buying a marquesa. He offered is opinion on them.


----------



## JC Designs

😎


----------



## Bonesonthebrain

kylet said:


> the little displaced water from the tab that does find the hull is being displace to the side of the tabs. Similarly what do you think the water is doing to the hull in front of the non recessed tab where your recessed tab is sitting as far as Newtons third law is concerned? I am not inconsistent in my fulcrum statements but really the point we are arguing isn’t about the fulcrum, it’s about where on the lever we are creating upward force.
> 
> people haven’t showed me that my statement on strength and weight is contradicted. People have offered several scenarios in which everything is a variable and there are really no controls. That’s not scientific and counterproductive to find a conclusion which if anything has been shown.
> 
> I almost didn’t post my education and experience. I genuinely believe as far as conversations like this play out on a forum, that posting that information at the end of context is an affirmation that even the author of the context was not confident enough in the context thus needing to provide additional validation that can neither be validated or honestly compared. There is nothing I can respond to you with that is going to provide any validation to you so in an effort to avoid that rabbit hole, I’m not giving you that info.


More nonsense, variables, controls, you do not have a clue what you are talking about, we are merely talking about basic principles of physics. Obviously you have no credentials, nor can you understand the basics or even begin to offer a logical explanation. Remember, you are the one who originally accused others of violating the laws of physics, yet cannot even begin to explain yourself.


----------



## kylet

Bonesonthebrain said:


> More nonsense, variables, controls, you do not have a clue what you are talking about, we are merely talking about basic principles of physics. Obviously you have no credentials, nor can you understand the basics or even begin to offer a logical explanation. Remember, you are the one who originally accused others of violating the laws of physics, yet cannot even begin to explain yourself.


I have explained to the point of it’s becoming repetitive and thus pointless. I never accused anyone of violating a law of physics, I have simply cited the known. It is physically impossible to violate laws of physics, why would anyone accuse a person of violating them?
I just hope you can appreciate the fact that you are doing a credential check and arguing your point to someone who you admittedly do not believe can “understand basics”. If you truly believe that then how smart are you? Or is this another attempt to validate your context? Let it speak for itself.[/QUOTE]


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## Smackdaddy53

Are you guys done thumping your hairless chests now? No one cares. Go fishing.


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> You can do the same you sawed off know it all little prick! Os your engineering degree in composites? How many boats have you designed or built in your career? How many composite repairs have you performed successfully without a single failure in your career? How many engine certifications do you hold from how many manufacturers? I didn’t think so, so STFU you snotty little child!


Are you the former boatbrains who had a temper tantrum and quit? Not trying to offend, I just see a lot of similarities.


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## kylet

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Are you guys done thumping your hairless chests now? No one cares. Go fishing.


Are you some sort of chest hair expert? 
yeah I’m done


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## devrep

page 13 of this Chit. keep it coming, I'm enjoying myself.


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## JC Designs

😎


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## kylet

JC Designs said:


> Yeah, I was Boatbrains, I didn’t “quit” I just changed a few things in my life. One of them was not taking shit from POS’s like you! Go back to your basement and stare at your degree a little more. 🖕


Haha, I guess I’m not as dumb as you’d like to believe. Im going to give myself a pat on the back.
I have traditional foundation.
So... your still working on that boat huh?


----------



## finbully

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Are you guys done thumping your hairless chests now? No one cares. Go fishing.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

Lighten up


----------



## brokeoff

Well, there is a Mangrove 12 full carbon for sale. Looks like the options add up pretty quick on a Chittum too. 96k retail.


----------



## kylet

brokeoff said:


> Well, there is a Mangrove 12 full carbon for sale. Looks like the options add up pretty quick on a Chittum too. 96k retail.


I wasn’t gonna say shit... but yeah


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## JC Designs




----------



## Rich11111




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## JC Designs

🤙


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> Oh no, boat is done my friend. Working on the company now. “See, I’m not as dumb as you thought either, never start a business in an election year” By the way, the boat is a bad ass skiff and I’ll put it against anything you can design and build as well as any other skiff in her class! I see you still haven’t reversed your reassignment surgery? Or does your doc have the hormones messed up again? I remember you from way back telling me how wrong I was about diagnosing another member’s yamaha... guess what? Yep, I was right! I think you are most likely a gender confused narcissist that can’t handle being told she is wrong. Keep telling yourself the lies, you are the only one that believes them. When you learn to accept the fact that you aren’t the smartest person in the room, you may just learn something.


So when you decided to quit or (not quit but make changes like not dealing with piece of shits like me), how would you say that’s going for you? I mean obviously I knew you weren’t quitting. No one who has a temper tantrum and announces quitting ever quits, but you did take a break and come back under a new name. 
you know how I knew it was you? You consistently look for affirmation from others when you post. At some point there is a calling of the banners (like you did earlier, lol). You love to hop into arguments and immediately start getting passive aggressively personal in an effort to discredit the other person as if that makes what you say any more credible. The problem is that it only takes a simple ‘uh-uh’ and you are at the point of what we’ve seen here in these posts. I mean that’s shit show man. Like full on let’s take the gloves off. I’d imagine this thread probably eats at you today. You should calm down. Stop worrying whether I know if I’m the smartest in the room. Hell im the only person in my room right now. It’s not really saying much.
Anyways, good to see you back. Good luck with your boat/company.


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> And I can guarantee you you that the people on this forum care more about my expertise and experience that I readily share with them than you and your self righteousness! All you ever really contribute is your silly ass opinions and tell everyone else how brilliant you are and how wrong they are.


People don’t give a shit about you or me. Not really sure why that means anything to you.


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## Rich11111

I came here for the *"**What makes Chittums different"*discussion. Should the title to this discussion be changed to fit the discussion?


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## JC Designs

😎


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## makin moves

I care. All lives matter


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## JC Designs

🤘


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> It’s all good buddy, pull your panties back up and wipe the lube off your tush. I certainly don’t need affirmation from you or anybody but if that is what you think... you go ahead with your narcissistic self. And remember, Jesus loves you! 🙏


I’m really am just trying to go ahead with my “narcissistic self”. Believe me. I just hate that it’s gotten to this point, again, with you. Are you ok?


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> Plenty of people care about me, I don’t know why that bothers you so bad. I’ve made friends with many people on here that have helped me and I have helped them as well. That is how us normal people live. I know it is hard for a narcissist like yourself to grasp. Or is there something deeper that makes you feel nobody cares about you? Were you touched as a child? Is that why you feel nobody cares? It’s ok, it wasn’t your fault! Jesus still loves you, and I will pray for you.


I mean, are you really going to pray for me? Basically the things I’ve learned from you itt is I’m a transgender, I try to convince myself I’m the smartest in the room, and I am offended that people care about you. It’s kind of a weird dynamic getting prayers from somebody with those factors in play. I really do think that I appreciate those prayers though. That’s really thoughtful.


----------



## JC Designs

🤙


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> Oh, I am better than terrific my friend! Thanks for asking. I hope all is well with you and that you have yourself a blessed day!


Man, that’s awesome. Why didn’t we start the conversation being this nice to each other?

we should discuss politics. How do you feel about making America great again?


----------



## sotilloa1078

Hahahahaha well this turned into pure entertainment!


----------



## JC Designs

🤙


----------



## HPXFLY

Anyone actually weigh their boats? Just curious was recently discussing with a friend and heard some stories of advertised at X but actually came out at Y. Not brand specific. Be nice to have a running thread on here with that info. Im gonna pull my two to a scale one day here soon since the same friend asked what one of my boats weighs and i can honestly only speculate.


----------



## commtrd

Well i do know that when i feel a nudger i dont want it to touch cotton, and that tends to lever my butt towards a a bathroom somewhere! =)

I have not weighed the hull by itself, Hal told me the current lamination schedule intended for a 50 or 60 is right at 350 full carbon. The weight i got the other day from a certified scale would seem to verify that i guess. 

I also know two things: this boat was stupid expensive, and it is crazy fun to drive and fish on. Now i am not an engineer, but i would say those two things are the most pertinent items to the run of the mill schmuck like me who just wants to go cast flies to fish, and do photography and art to reflect the experience. Life is good!


----------



## JC Designs

HPXFLY said:


> Anyone actually weigh their boats? Just curious was recently discussing with a friend and heard some stories of advertised at X but actually came out at Y. Not brand specific. Be nice to have a running thread on here with that info. Im gonna pull my two to a scale one day here soon since the same friend asked what one of my boats weighs and i can honestly only speculate.


That is a good idea. I will say that many builders list dry weight as the combined weight of the frp parts straight out of the mold! Also, I believe Chris laid out the weights of all the accessories on his Beryllium build thread. I’ve never weighed it all out like that myself since these are variables I cannot change. But it is significant and something all designers/ builders should take in to consideration. I believe Chittum did & that is something that makes them different. There are ways to adjust for the added weight and I suppose I subconsciously do it myself. You can certainly reduce weight and maintain strength in a laminate by simply using different cores, high modulus, intermediate modulus, and low modulus fiber reinforcements along with custom engineered resin blends and through a post cure process. Back to what you are suggesting with weighing, the last complete rig I did and I won’t mention the name again on this thread, the stainless hardware including bow/stern eyes, all nuts/bolts/washers was around 20lbs! That was for it all including trim tab and micro power pole mounting but still quite a bit for just hardware on a skiff!


----------



## JC Designs

🤘


----------



## devrep

it all comes down to how much disposable cash you have. if it's worth an extra 30K to you above an already ridiculous price then I say go for it. its either going to take a mound of cash or a lump of debt. I'm not into nth degree cars or boats but I am a top tier tackle whore and I like fine motorcycles. everyone has different priorities.


----------



## devrep

and you 2 children please stop with the bickering and personal insults.


----------



## JC Designs

devrep said:


> it all comes down to how much disposable cash you have. if it's worth an extra 30K to you above an already ridiculous price then I say go for it. its either going to take a mound of cash or a lump of debt. I'm not into nth degree cars or boats but I am a top tier tackle whore and I like fine motorcycles. everyone has different priorities.


You also have a thing for nice old heavy iron IIRC.


----------



## HPXFLY

commtrd said:


> Well i do know that when i feel a nudger i dont want it to touch cotton, and that tends to lever my butt towards a a bathroom somewhere! =)
> 
> I have not weighed the hull by itself, Hal told me the current lamination schedule intended for a 50 or 60 is right at 350 full carbon. The weight i got the other day from a certified scale would seem to verify that i guess.
> 
> I also know two things: this boat was stupid expensive, and it is crazy fun to drive and fish on. Now i am not an engineer, but i would say those two things are the most pertinent items to the run of the mill schmuck like me who just wants to go cast flies to fish, and do photography and art to reflect the experience. Life is good!


yea most the motors all are advertised weights pretty close plus 20-30lbs. not sure what a standard aluminum ramlin or ameritrail weighs but gonna guess 250-300? sure thats listed somewhere for DOT, be pretty easy to figure out what the boat rigged to fish weighs by itself after that. Bc the advertised weights I never know what that includes. Is it everything less motor? just hull? just hull, cap, hatches ect...


----------



## JC Designs

Ok, ok, ok, I figured it all out! I have the answer to everyone’s question finally! You can thank me later, but what makes a Chittum different? Let’s go deeper! What makes Hell’s Bay, East Cape, Drake, New Water, Ankona, South Dade, Spear, Skimmer, etc... different?









We may never know, your welcome!


----------



## Rich11111

devrep said:


> and you 2 children please stop with the bickering and personal insults.


I think they kissed and made up.


----------



## HPXFLY

For instance HB advertises a Marquesa at 695lb. Chittum has the snake bite advertised at 550lbs. I own a marquesa and have been on a snake bite and I can tell you they feel alot more than 145lbs different.


----------



## commtrd

My Professional seemed quite a bit harder to push than the new ride does. Saying that though, i will always miss that boat. She was a beauty. Sweetest lines, fit and finish. Does that matter? I sure think so.


















Apologies for posting these again... But thinking about that boat, just brought back memories.


----------



## sotilloa1078

devrep said:


> it all comes down to how much disposable cash you have. if it's worth an extra 30K to you above an already ridiculous price then I say go for it. its either going to take a mound of cash or a lump of debt. I'm not into nth degree cars or boats but I am a top tier tackle whore and I like fine motorcycles. everyone has different priorities.


30k difference is a stretch.


----------



## devrep

ok, but not by much I think.


----------



## commtrd

Whatever the weight might be for any given boat, this is the end reason we fantasize so much and try to optimize the experience. I think.
Stephen Ford's boat over by Cedar Bayou. This trip is what made me sign my life away. =)
That boat did stuff I didn't even know was possible for a non-tunnel skiff to do. 'Nuff said.


----------



## Jason M

HPXFLY said:


> For instance HB advertises a Marquesa at 695lb. Chittum has the snake bite advertised at 550lbs. I own a marquesa and have been on a snake bite and I can tell you they feel alot more than 145lbs different.


This was one of my main considerations when looking at mine. Honestly I was close to getting a Marquesa but realized that I didn't want to buy another boat in 5 or 10 years and just bit the bullet. I didn't want a new heavy boat, I had an old heavy boat and wasn't going to buy a new one and still have a 1,000 pounds to push around.

Second I had fished out of one and knew what it was all about. The guides that are buying their own speaks quite a bit about the Chittum.


----------



## ifsteve

sotilloa1078 said:


> 30k difference is a stretch.


No its not. Go look at the used one for sale in the Classifieds/


----------



## commtrd

Well that boat has just about every conceivable extra option tacked on. Any upper-tier boat fully optioned realizes a substantial increase in price.


----------



## T Bone

Jason M said:


> The guides that are buying their own speaks quite a bit about the Chittum.


If I were a betting man, a good portion of those guides that switched within the past two years had some form of financial incentive to do so. I don’t know this for fact, but if you cut a guide a good enough deal, he will drive whatever boat, to a certain extent.

In saying that, I would love for Chittum to cut me a deal...


----------



## ifsteve

T Bone said:


> If I were a betting man, a good portion of those guides that switched within the past two years had some form of financial incentive to do so. I don’t know this for fact, but if you cut a guide a good enough deal, he will drive whatever boat, to a certain extent.
> 
> In saying that, I would love for Chittum to cut me a deal...


I'd like to hear of single guide that is running a Chittum that had to pay street price! Not saying there aren't any but anytime a guide recommends any type of equipment the first thing I want to know is if they are on said company bro staff. That doesn't mean that a recommendation from a staffer isn't good. It just means take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## sotilloa1078

ifsteve said:


> I'd like to hear of single guide that is running a Chittum that had to pay street price! Not saying there aren't any but anytime a guide recommends any type of equipment the first thing I want to know is if they are on said company bro staff. That doesn't mean that a recommendation from a staffer isn't good. It just means take it with a grain of salt.


what I paid is irrelevant . But know this, I paid more for my skiff than any other skiff I could have bought. I paid more because it was worth it for the fishing I do on a regular basis.
I’ve owned a couple HB a Maverick and have fished in many more. This is the boat for me. So I ponied up.


----------



## Jason M

sotilloa1078 said:


> what I paid is no ones business. But know this, I paid more for my skiff than any other skiff I could have bought. I paid more because it was worth it for the fishing I do on a regular basis.
> I’ve owned a couple HB a Maverick and have fished in many more. This is the boat for me. So I ponied up.


Good guides get deals from all of the manufacturers so that's not a big deal. Hell there's plenty of examples where guides get them for free.


----------



## devrep

it's good to be happy with your boat.


----------



## ifsteve

sotilloa1078 said:


> *what I paid is no ones business*. But know this, I paid more for my skiff than any other skiff I could have bought. I paid more because it was worth it for the fishing I do on a regular basis.
> I’ve owned a couple HB a Maverick and have fished in many more. This is the boat for me. So I ponied up.


No it certainly isn't. That wasn't the point and you know it. And so what if you paid "more for that than any other skiff you could have bought." You will also hopefully get a higher resale if and when you change boats. Great that you have the skiff that's for you. That has nothing to do with what I posted Zero.

In fact you helped make my point. You didn't pay what I would have to pay for that boat. So your recommendation should be taken with that in mind. AND as I said that doesn't mean its not good feedback. Its just reasonable to know when a guide is recommending something that they probably have a vested interest in promoting that equipment. Nothing wrong with that!!!! I just feel its important for guides to be upfront about that.


----------



## sotilloa1078

ifsteve said:


> No it certainly isn't. That wasn't the point and you know it. And so what if you paid "more for that than any other skiff you could have bought." You will also hopefully get a higher resale if and when you change boats. Great that you have the skiff that's for you. That has nothing to do with what I posted Zero.
> 
> In fact you helped make my point. You didn't pay what I would have to pay for that boat. So your recommendation should be taken with that in mind. AND as I said that doesn't mean its not good feedback. Its just reasonable to know when a guide is recommending something that they probably have a vested interest in promoting that equipment. Nothing wrong with that!!!! I just feel its important for guides to be upfront about that.


Agreed I hope you didn’t take my first sentence as being rude in any way. Wasn’t meant to be an attack in any way shape or form.

I don’t know if you saw my build thread. I am as humble as can be and will never tell someone the boat they like or bought is bad or the wrong boat etc. there’s a boat for everyone out there and what important to some may not be for others etc. Also what I was trying to say that I have the skiff that works best for me is that it is worth the higher cost that’s all. 

Again I hope I didn’t come off like a jerk in the opening sentence. I’ll edit it now actually.


----------



## Matts

Stevie, tell us what you think about the new LM2 I full vs half carbon as to actual performance? Full carbon is amazing but I wonder how much it really improves draft and ride?


----------



## Stevie

brokeoff said:


> Exactly how much lighter is a Chittum than the competition? It seems like the draw of a Chittum is the 12 degree boat that can handle a bit of slop in a package that can be poled more easily than the competition. But just what is that difference?


Hi @brokeoff
Your questions on weight and comparative weights go to the heart of the matter...my guesstimates on weights of fully rigged boats and real figures on top speeds w/ 2 Anglers & fly gear:

- Mangrove 18 1/2 Carbon with Tohatsu 60 (220lbs.) - 750 pounds rigged - top speed: 40-41 mph (I understand the 2* and 12* boats weigh in similarly. @commtrd ‘s report of 1074 with trailer seems super low—- unless the steel RamLin weighs 350 lbs)

- Snake Bight 18 1/2 Carbon with Yamaha F70 (259 lbs.) - 825 lbs rigged - top speed: 42mph

- Snake Bight Performance 18 1/2 Carbon w/ Yamaha SHO 115 (377 lbs) ; Bobs JP (50 lbs)- 1000 pounds rigged - top speed 57-59 mph (A guide in KW told me his Snake Bight 1/2 C with 22 gallons fuel, 3 Blue Top batteries & 100 lbs of gear weighed 1180 on the marina forklift, quite a bit less than my estimate).

My sense is other boats in the same class weigh 250-300 lbs more— at least the weight of another passenger on board. CM weighed a Marquesa at 1600 lbs with trolling motor. My experience riding in a Marquesa with F90 was top speed was 39 mph (that boat reportedly weighs 1500)....I was grateful to charter that Marquesa for an extended period of time & we definitely caught fish that we wouldn’t have out of a panga. Our 10% C Mangrove in MX with Tohatsu 50 does 36-37 mph, probably 1/2 the rigged weight. We fish the same ocean flats as the Marquesa and 23 pangas (apples & oranges & pears as far as boats, yet doing the same job). But the Mangrove certainly drafts shallower and is easier to pole.

You could look at speeds of other boats with the same power as an indication of hull weight.


----------



## Stevie

Matts said:


> Stevie, tell us what you think about the new LM2 I full vs half carbon as to actual performance? Full carbon is amazing but I wonder how much it really improves draft and ride?


Hi Matt

In the exact same boat/build, I think full vs 1/2 Carbon would draft about the same. The full C reportedly saves 50lbs. The ride will be stiffer and smoother in the carbon, harsher if your launching off waves. The 1/2 C will feel more buttery but you feel more of the chop; it’s softer in some ways. Very hard to describe.

Anyone seriously interested should test ride & decide for themselves...


----------



## Stevie

ifsteve said:


> I'd like to hear of single guide that is running a Chittum that had to pay street price! Not saying there aren't any but anytime a guide recommends any type of equipment the first thing I want to know is if they are on said company bro staff. That doesn't mean that a recommendation from a staffer isn't good. It just means take it with a grain of salt.


And Chittum is not the only boat company that has a guide program...


----------



## Str8-Six

My Hpx 18 weights 3 times the weight of the 100% carbon Chittum. That’s crazy when you think about it.


----------



## Stevie

prinjm6 said:


> Stevie,
> 
> I wish you would be transparent as to why your Caimen weighed more than what a Caimen built today would be. I know why, you know why. When you want hatches in a boat that doesnt have tooling for hatches to be made from a mold and hatches are added by hand they will weigh more among other things in your Caimen build.


Sorry this point escaped me... The one off hatches were not the only element which made that Caimen heavy... Prefer not to rehash an old build ; very fond memories of that boat...

My TX fishing partner used to say: Stevie, we don’t need to go to the gym today...we’ve got 24 Hour Fitness right here on the boat when you open the front hatch!

If I had known the weight of the hatches and some other things, I would have built it differently.... but I loved that Caimen... caught a lot of fish on it... learned how dry a boat could be and how it can pole into the wind easier (than my 178 before)... it was also priced VERY well and I got my money’s worth. However, could never get that Caimen to go over 29 mph with a Yam 50 2 stroke (185 lbs) and a heavily cupped prop.

Yes I gather Caimens are built better today & a no floor boat with 30 Tohatsu would draft well... I loved seeing that Old’s Cool boat up for sale recently... that was a gem.


----------



## Surffshr

Soooo, did anyone see that Snakebight 18 with the Hydrotech Yamaha 90 2s on the back?


----------



## ifsteve

Stevie said:


> And Chittum is not the only boat company that has a guide program...


Of course there are several and it doesn't stop with just boats. That's why my last post was more generic about advice from staffers on equipment. Certainly guides are not going to use crap stuff even if its free. Sooner or later word will get around and they'll lose business. Just a word of caution to guys reading recommendations. Important to know the whole story.


----------



## Stevie

Surffshr said:


> Soooo, did anyone see that Snakebight 18 with the Hydrotech Yamaha 90 2s on the back?




__
http://instagr.am/p/CDH_WIGANwK/


----------



## Stevie

ifsteve said:


> Of course there are several and it doesn't stop with just boats. That's why my last post was more generic about advice from staffers on equipment. Certainly guides are not going to use crap stuff even if its free. Sooner or later word will get around and they'll lose business. Just a word of caution to guys reading recommendations. Important to know the whole story.


Agree... you should watch when guides suddenly get out of a new-to-them brand skiff after a short period of time. There are guides giving back boats from the free program of one company....


----------



## jpipes

Stevie said:


> Agree... you should watch when guides suddenly get out of a new-to-them brand skiff after a short period of time. There are guides giving back boats from the free program of one company....


And who would that company be?


----------



## Matts

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Glad you got it sorted out. Time for that two boat trip.


Make it 3 boat trip as going to see how much shallower Keith can run!


----------



## Matts

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I didn’t know boats caught fish.


I honestly believe mine does help me catch more😎


----------



## JC Designs

Matts said:


> I honestly believe mine does help me catch more😎


Hell yeah! You gotta phrase it so @Smackdaddy53 gets it though... Try something like this...

Smack, I believe in using the best “tools” for the job. I buy high quality “tools” because they make my job easier. You know how important good tools are when making a repair or building something like... maybe a chicken coupe. A skiff is just another tool. A technical poling skiff is a “specialized” tool. And given the fact that you know how important quality tools are, I know you’ll appreciate that a quality skiff can certainly help catch fish! 🤘


----------



## Stevie

jpipes said:


> And who would that company be?


You’ll have to do your own homework... It exists... not boats that would work well in TX...


----------



## Stevie

Matts said:


> Make it 3 boat trip as going to see how much shallower Keith can run!


If you need a guy to pole or serve drinks... I’m in


----------



## commtrd

It will go skinnier than i need to be running. Plus that is only one aspect of the boat's performance. Like does a boat beat you to death, how does it pole, dry ride, etc.


----------



## Matts

Stevie said:


> If you need a guy to pole or serve drinks... I’m in


I’d be honored Stevie. I owe you for breaking the LM in for me!


----------



## Smackdaddy53

Matts said:


> Make it 3 boat trip as going to see how much shallower Keith can run!


No trenching...


----------



## JC Designs

Smackdaddy53 said:


> No trenching...


That’s why they gotta come here! Our bottom hits back so they can’t fake it!


----------



## Stevie

Matts said:


> I honestly believe mine does help me catch more😎


Looks like someone gave you bad info on a fishin hole the other day... This is what SJR was talkin about...used to be able to run through that slough...


----------



## CKEAT

Stevie said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CDH_WIGANwK/





JC Designs said:


> That’s why they gotta come here! Our bottom hits back so they can’t fake it!


Oh make no mistake, there is bottom in POC that hits back hard. 🤣


----------



## commtrd

Tough poling there.


----------



## Matts

commtrd said:


> Tough poling there.


The LM 2 had been there once so Braden wanted to explore an inside lake. I can promise my much narrower Mosquito would not have made it through that jungle. Kept waiting on a rattlesnake to join our party! Took a while to scrub the mangrove marks off the “mangrove.” Good memories, no doubt. That skiff is a fishing machine.


----------



## mwolaver

So, enjoying this thread. Thanks, Stevie. Have seen no mention of the hull design here. Only a bunch of material talk and some price bitching. (and name calling)

Certainly the hull design makes chittum boats different, no?


----------



## JC Designs

mwolaver said:


> So, enjoying this thread. Thanks, Stevie. Have seen no mention of the hull design here. Only a bunch of material talk and some price bitching. (and name calling)
> 
> Certainly the hull design makes chittum boats different, no?


While I did some name calling and materials mentioning... I do believe I also spoke of design and the engineering way back. Carry on


----------



## JC Designs

Why yes, yes I did... way back on pages 1&2 🤘


----------



## mwolaver

Fair enough. You did mention some design features. I'll specify: design of the hull shape.


----------



## JC Designs

mwolaver said:


> Fair enough. You did mention some design features. I'll specify: design of the hull shape.


Sorry, was just being my typical smart ass self! 🤣 To add, there was a whole lot of thought and R & D over the years leading up to the release.


----------



## finbully

mwolaver said:


> So, enjoying this thread. Thanks, Stevie. Have seen no mention of the hull design here. Only a bunch of material talk and some price bitching. (and name calling)
> 
> Certainly the hull design makes chittum boats different, no?


I talked about my trim tab preferences and why. I even got dissed about it so I feel like part of the clan.


----------



## Stevie

mwolaver said:


> So, enjoying this thread. Thanks, Stevie. Have seen no mention of the hull design here. Only a bunch of material talk and some price bitching. (and name calling)
> 
> Certainly the hull design makes chittum boats different, no?


Howdy @mwolaver,

I really wanted avoid a shit show... ... given the topic and the audience obviously that’s impossible. This was really supposed to be a nerdy, build technique thread & I purposely wrote my first posts in the most factual, un emotional tone I could.... Glad you’re still hangin in with us.

@Jason M ‘s first post describing the bow and fishing qualities came the closest to addressing hull design..

Hull design is above my pay grade... my limited interpretation : Chittum has said from the beginning that their bow design (photo below) eliminates / reduces the pressure wave felt by fish as you approach them, so there’s greater stealth. Bob Branham, who has hull #2 swears by it. The 7 or so top Key West guides who changed to the Chittum 12* in the last 2 years would tell you they get within 30 feet of permit, and could not do so consistently in other boats. In my experience we have approached fish in a way I hadn’t seen before in TX and FL. The 3 biggest bonefish I’ve caught in FL over the past 6 months were within 35 feet of the boat, 2 were within 20’. A month ago we were poling for permit in 2& a half feet of off color, sargassum stained water, & suddenly there’s a 20 lb permit tailing, feeding down at 10 feet off 5 o’clock of the boat, by the poling platform...whether we had passed it, or it caught up to us, don’t know... but it stayed around long enough for me to flub 3 casts (I’d rather have a 45 foot cast then a 20 foot cast with a super long leader & heavy fly).... the radiused corners of the transom (not unique to Chittum) make the boats easier to spin and quieter when poling with chop coming from aft... George talks about the lifting and running strakes ... way above my understanding, but you can see them in the 2nd photo...


----------



## Stevie

finbully said:


> I talked about my trim tab preferences and why. I even got dissed about it so I feel like part of the clan.


Do you still wonder whether this is an advertisement??


----------



## finbully

Stevie said:


> Do you still wonder whether this is an advertisement??


The Instagram parts, yes.

You're contributions and information - a proud, dedicated real life owner. Nothing negative about that.


----------



## ifsteve

Here is a scientific fact. You can design a hull to minimize slap and pressure wave. You can not eliminate it. When a hull of any kind moves through water that water is displaced. That displaced water moves. Period.


----------



## JC Designs

ifsteve said:


> Here is a scientific fact. You can design a hull to minimize slap and pressure wave. You can not eliminate it. When a hull of any kind moves through water that water is displaced. That displaced water moves. Period.


Agreed! While you can not eliminate it as you are well aware of. You can reduce it, as you are also well aware of.

You can also re direct it. I feel this is what they probably mean when stating “eliminate”. By this, if you re direct the pressure wave away from the fish you are trailing in some way, you have in effect eliminated the pressure wave the fish would normally feel? I could be wrong, but it is a theory.


----------



## Stevie

ifsteve said:


> Here is a scientific fact. You can design a hull to minimize slap and pressure wave. You can not eliminate it. When a hull of any kind moves through water that water is displaced. That displaced water moves. Period.





JC Designs said:


> Agreed! While you can not eliminate it as you are well aware of. You can reduce it, as you are also well aware of.
> 
> You can also re direct it. I feel this is what they probably mean when stating “eliminate”. By this, if you re direct the pressure wave away from the fish you are trailing in some way, you have in effect eliminated the pressure wave the fish would normally feel? I could be wrong, but it is a theory.


.... And, the less a boat drafts vs it’s LOA & Beam footprint, means the less of a pressure wave the boat will emit... 

I recall that Chittum’s explanation was that they redirected the pressure wave to the sides of the boat..


----------



## Stevie

finbully said:


> I talked about my trim tab preferences and why. I even got dissed about it so I feel like part of the clan.


Glad you’re still here, @finbully ... I prefer community over clans, gangs & tribes... I’m grateful to the MS community & am sure we have a whole lot more in common as passionate shallow water anglers and skiff enthusiasts, than the differences of our respective brand preferences.. our experiences on the water become engrained in our psyche, and hence we grow fonder or more attached to the vessel that carried us through those experiences... and that is all very hard to convey in writing through impersonal social media ...


finbully said:


> The Instagram parts, yes.
> 
> You're contributions and information - a proud, dedicated real life owner. Nothing negative about that.


Thanks for your clarification... I can understand how the initial 3rd person photo essay could be construed as an advertisement...

I just pulled that content from the public domain of Chittum’s IG... I find their IPhone pics a lot more authentic with cans of spray adhesive sitting on the hulls, and guys in t-shirts doing their jobs, than the beautiful light filled laboratory-looking, heaven on earth, “the messiah is born”/ photo studio of another shop...

Again will say that Chittum is extremely revealing about their process for a company with such a strong reputation for touting its secret sauce...


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> While I did some name calling and materials mentioning... I do believe I also spoke of design and the engineering way back. Carry on


You also followed that all up with a disclaimer that you actually have no experience with chittums.


----------



## Stevie

kylet said:


> You also followed that all up with a disclaimer that you actually have no experience with chittums.


Pls guys... not again...


----------



## kylet

Stevie said:


> .... And, the less a boat drafts vs it’s LOA & Beam footprint, means the less of a pressure wave the boat will emit...
> 
> I recall that Chittum’s explanation was that they redirected the pressure wave to the sides of the boat..


Yep, volume is displaced. Less volume below the waterline equals less displacement. Science


----------



## kylet

Stevie said:


> Pls guys... not again...


I mean come on, the same could be said about any thread started about any boat... “please guys not again”. It’s not hurting anybody.


----------



## Matts

Stevie said:


> Howdy @mwolaver,
> 
> I really wanted avoid a shit show... ... given the topic and the audience obviously that’s impossible. This was really supposed to be a nerdy, build technique thread & I purposely wrote my first posts in the most factual, un emotional tone I could.... Glad you’re still hangin in with us.
> 
> @Jason M ‘s first post describing the bow and fishing qualities came the closest to addressing hull design..
> 
> Hull design is above my pay grade... my limited interpretation : Chittum has said from the beginning that their bow design (photo below) eliminates / reduces the pressure wave felt by fish as you approach them, so there’s greater stealth. Bob Branham, who has hull #2 swears by it. The 7 or so top Key West guides would tell you they get within 30 feet of permit, and could not do so consistently in other boats. In my experience we have approached fish in a way I hadn’t seen before in TX and FL. The 3 biggest bonefish I’ve caught in FL over the past 6 months were within 35 feet of the boat, 2 were within 20’. A month ago we were poling for permit in 2& a half feet of off color, sargassum stained water, & suddenly there’s a 20 lb permit tailing, feeding down at 10 feet off 5 o’clock of the boat, by the poling platform...whether we had passed it, or it caught up to us, don’t know... but it stayed around long enough for me to flub 3 casts (I’d rather have a 45 foot cast then a 20 foot cast with a super long leader & heavy fly).... the radiused corners of the transom (not unique to Chittum) make the boats easier to spin and quieter when poling with chop coming from aft... George talks about the lifting and running strakes ... way above my understanding, but you can see them in the 2nd photo...
> View attachment 152622
> 
> 
> View attachment 152623


----------



## Matts

Quote thing messed up:
My response to the bow engineering:
Hal told me that his aerospace engineers designed the front and side parts of the bow to reduce the pressure waves emanating from the skiff. All I know is I get RIDICULOUSLY close to fish in this Chittum. A Chittum guide, who shall remain entirely anonymous, told me after I poled his skiff to “please not tell everyone about the capabilities of Chittum.” I was shocked that this was said (guide programs are supposed to be in to sell skiffs) but tells you they too feel there is a difference. My 0.02.


----------



## JC Designs

Stevie said:


> Pls guys... not again...


He is correct Stevie, I did say that. When ya wanna get together and change that so I can continue to give these folks my completely unbiased but professional opinion? Just let me know and we’ll make it happen bud! Because as you know, 20+ years in the field studying, building, repairing, and operating skiffs and offshore boats is meaningless until I have been at the helm, on the tower, and on the bow so in order to give an opinion on how one is different I need to wet test.


----------



## JC Designs

kylet said:


> You also followed that all up with a disclaimer that you actually have no experience with chittums.


You are right, I did. I have never fished or operated a Chittum skiff. My opinion was based solely on my knowledge of hydrodynamics, other designs, my own designs, and a lifetime of operating literally thousands of various vessels. But again, you are correct sir.


----------



## Stevie

kylet said:


> I mean come on, the same could be said about any thread started about any boat... “please guys not again”. It’s not hurting anybody.


It’s a free country.. have at it with the personal flame wars... I appreciate a lot of your observations, like the displacement verification... but you and James should take it outside or get a room..

So far we’re not socialists either, so anyone who has earned their way to buying whatever skiff shouldn’t be frowned upon either whether it’s 10, 20%, or 100% more... @kylet this one was not directed at you..


----------



## commtrd

Sure seems like the golden age for skiff design. Greatly improved and innovative materials combined with futuristic design parameters is providing some of the finest skiffs ever seen. And the competition benefits all.


----------



## Jason M

Stevie said:


> Howdy @mwolaver,
> 
> I really wanted avoid a shit show... ... given the topic and the audience obviously that’s impossible. This was really supposed to be a nerdy, build technique thread & I purposely wrote my first posts in the most factual, un emotional tone I could.... Glad you’re still hangin in with us.
> 
> @Jason M ‘s first post describing the bow and fishing qualities came the closest to addressing hull design..
> 
> Hull design is above my pay grade... my limited interpretation : Chittum has said from the beginning that their bow design (photo below) eliminates / reduces the pressure wave felt by fish as you approach them, so there’s greater stealth. Bob Branham, who has hull #2 swears by it. The 7 or so top Key West guides would tell you they get within 30 feet of permit, and could not do so consistently in other boats. In my experience we have approached fish in a way I hadn’t seen before in TX and FL. The 3 biggest bonefish I’ve caught in FL over the past 6 months were within 35 feet of the boat, 2 were within 20’. A month ago we were poling for permit in 2& a half feet of off color, sargassum stained water, & suddenly there’s a 20 lb permit tailing, feeding down at 10 feet off 5 o’clock of the boat, by the poling platform...whether we had passed it, or it caught up to us, don’t know... but it stayed around long enough for me to flub 3 casts (I’d rather have a 45 foot cast then a 20 foot cast with a super long leader & heavy fly).... the radiused corners of the transom (not unique to Chittum) make the boats easier to spin and quieter when poling with chop coming from aft... George talks about the lifting and running strakes ... way above my understanding, but you can see them in the 2nd photo...
> 
> 
> View attachment 152622
> 
> 
> View attachment 152623


I fished early today here in Tampa Bay and was working down a bank and looked down and there was a giant black drum right under my bow.

Yes it's a drum but it was early and the water was off color but I did have the trolling motor on and it was only 2 feet deep. Crazy how quiet these skiffs are.


----------



## JC Designs

commtrd said:


> Sure seems like the golden age for skiff design. Greatly improved and innovative materials combined with futuristic design parameters is providing some of the finest skiffs ever seen. And the competition benefits all.


Well said sir.


----------



## JC Designs

@kylet, out of respect for @Stevie, this forum, it’s members, and myself... I have started editing my trash posts between you and I as they are totally irrelevant to this thread and disrespectful to you, this forum, and all it’s members. I hope you will accept my apology, delete/ edit yours to me as well and let’s put our differences aside for the benefit of the forum and this thread? The site would only allow 10 edits so some will have to stay. What do you say friend?


----------



## finbully

I hope public policy reverses water management choices that have degraded many areas and the fish keep a little bit of advantage or our niche passion will become a boring pastime.


----------



## Stevie

finbully said:


> I hope public policy reverses water management choices that have degraded many areas and the fish keep a little bit of advantage or our niche passion will become a boring pastime.


Yessir, that perspective should resonate universally through the MS community! How do we reach a broader audience?


----------



## commtrd

For all the cutting edge work and innovation with shallow water fishing boats and equipment in FL, it seems there is an amazing lack of consciousness relative to the Everglades in particular and the aquatic environment in general by the mass populace. It will likely take strong opposition by the general public to finally give big sugar the boot, and revert back to responsible management of resources by all concerned.


----------



## commtrd

Picked up these plastic bins to put inside compartment at the stern to help keep stuff organized. Cheap and works well.


----------



## makin moves

I like skiffs of all sizes and prices. Knowing more about them is a plus. Thanks for the thread Stevie.


----------



## sotilloa1078

I use similar bins and they work great.

like stated above. It’s easy to hate or trash talk skiffs based on the price lots of people will say it’s not worth it. That they skiff they chose will do everything the same etc. Hell just a few years ago HB was the company that had the highest price tag ( they’re not far off now) and everyone said that was crazy. But that’s what makes the world go round giving people options. There is even a relatively new builder that their intro price is in the 60k range if I’m not mistaking. People will love them some will hate them. That’s life.

Buy the boat that fits you best. Run it, fish it and if you decide you want some different.... sell it and move on. That’s the beauty of this. I enjoy talking skiffs. That’s the main reason I come to this site.


----------



## Matts

commtrd said:


> Picked up these plastic bins to put inside compartment at the stern to help keep stuff organized. Cheap and works well.
> 
> View attachment 152633


I need some of those! How large are yours? I’ve been using my stripping basket to store stuff. Did you see the sliding tray Chittum advertised?


----------



## Net 30

Stevie said:


> It’s a free country.. have at it with the personal flame wars... I appreciate a lot of your observations, like the displacement verification... but you and James should take it outside or get a room..


Man I couldn't agree more. I gotta believe that Hal is sitting back in his Lazy Boy reading this thread, cocktail in one hand, iPad in the other & laughing his ass off at all the non-owner expert opinions.


----------



## Stevie

Renegade said:


> @sotilloa1078 Spot on. To me, the lion’s share of the value of a Chittum is built into the 10% boat... the 50% carbon saves 100 lbs... the 100% saves an additional 50 pounds and changes the ride quality. My favorite builds have the fewest options.
> 
> It’s great many other builders are embracing alternative materials. But until I’m convinced their basic build process is light to begin with, I question if the carbon, etc adds significant value. I once started a post saying that as consumers, we should insist that builders weigh the unrigged boat... that would be a step forward....
> 
> It would be very hard for me to build a 115 Chittum 18. We’re experimenting with a Yamaha 90 2 stroke with HydroTec Phase Kit (thanks to inspiration from James’ post!) for 100 hp on the carbon race boat. Will report numbers...


Chris Morejohn just did this with his Beryllium, Lithium and Marquesa. Average rigging weighed 183#. Hard to get around that.

I believe the Marquesa weighed more than what was advertised.
[/QUOTE]
Hey @Renegade

Nice observations on the CM post. In his rigging calculations, the marine battery weighed 53 or 58 pounds. Chittum uses 25 lb West Maine AGMs standard or sometimes 15lb Lithium batteries as an option. 

What was also interesting in CM’s post was the net hull weight on the Beryllium of 600 # & change... that was a hand laid boat with 1 & 1/8” core...

The Marquesa weight at 1600 lbs with TM is consistent with my understanding of a Marquesa that I chartered over 10days & poled some.


----------



## Stevie

sjrobin said:


> I am sure the 12 deg Chittum with a light weight OB is the perfect skiff for Florida and maybe Louisiana, but very limited use on most days in Texas. Even then, I have a 160 mile range in the Pro, so no need to carry plastic fuel containers when traveling long distance.


Can you elaborate on this opinion, Steven? Your comment on the LM is that it will blow away in any wind, but you’ve also said if you were in FL, you would consider a 12 degree, because it tracks better....

In my experience a 12 degree Mangrove with Tohatsu 50 and a 23 gallon fuel cell should have a 210 mile range. My boat in MX has plastic tanks, because that was the idea of the prototype, a bare bones tiller boat... we’ve run over 90 miles on its 9 gallon plastic tank... when we modified that boat to a center console, I purposely left the plastic tanks for easier maintenance in MX...


----------



## Stevie

texasag07 said:


> Cool to see the build pics and the info. Thanks for posting. A little less scoring in the core on some of these builds looks like a good idea to save a little weight. Is the core in the deck mold scored at all or is it just flat pieces glued to the skin due to the crowned shape of the deck mold?
> 
> Are they using epoxy on all builds infusion or are the 10 percent builds built using VE? Not that it matters from a material weight as a gallon of VE and gallon of epoxy are near the same weight.
> 
> Aside from the use of CSM used in VE or poly layups which would add some more weight depending on the glass layup choices chittum uses for epoxy infusion. From my amateur glass projects using csm, biax, and 10 and 24 oz woven mat the csm combined with a woven mat yields a really strong product. Yes the csm uptake of resin is greater but subsequent layers especially when speaking of 10 oz absorb most of their resin from the csm layer when applied on top of the csm with some additional resin being added to ensure a good wet out. Also if shooting for a desired glass thickness it’s isn’t hard to calculate how much resin it will take to wet out multiple layers of glass based on manufacture data.
> 
> I priced them in my shopping when looking at a new build and sadly I haven’t been able to get out on one. They are also about 15 grand higher than the other skiff I was looking at with similar options. If I really needed to push the draft limitations of a 12 degree skiff on the pole then they would have ranked higher. For where I fish the most the difference in an inch or so in draft I couldn’t justify the cost. If I fished the keys more and chasing bones and such often I could definitely see the appeal. As with all skiff companies you never hear the truth about a brand till someone has sold them ( especially the guides with pro deals). In my opinion it makes it much easier to swallow larger upfront cost for performance if the skiff is your office rather than your weekend hobby.
> 
> I understand layup and design has a lot to do with draft. I fish a lot from a one off skiff that is 15 ish feet and 3-4’ wide beam at greatest. It’s all cored and has one layer of 1708 Inside and out of The Whole skiff. With a 20 hp tohatsu it will float with two 200 lb guys, no battery and fly gear in a legitimate 4” it’s the shallowest craft I have been on.
> 
> I love seeing all skiff build pics and info so much to learn and things to add on to your magical list of the perfect skiff.


Howdy @texasag07 

First... I love your fly patterns...

I am not a technical guy, so in over my head on a lot of your questions...

On the core, my understanding and as is illustrated in the IG posts, for the Mangrove build boats with 1/2” core they don’t need to score... the thinner core takes the shape of the hull in the mold.... for the Snake Bight builds, they score the thicker 3/4” core for the areas where the hull is curved. The flat areas are not scored.

I can’t answer your questions on resins, etc...


----------



## Stevie

sjrobin said:


> Accurate to a certain point of wave height and frequency, then I assure you, a less punishing, dryer ride in a Marquesa or even Biscayne. Also, to be clear, any of my previous reviews refer to the flat bottom Chittum skiffs.


I would agree the Marquesa has a more regal ride, with smooth chines and hydrostatic lock that creates, more like a displacement hull. Whereas Chittum 12 degree has a more active ride as the sharply angled chines are designed to repeatedly break loose and put/keep the boat on a plane. The Marquesa probably rides better in following seas. To me the Chittum rides better in head seas. I actually find lighter boats ride better than heavier boats, that’s my opinion... I wouldn’t say a Marquesa is drier at all. I’ve found that a Chittum 12 degree can run relatively faster in nasty conditions as long as you can stay on top of the waves. 

I would repeat the description above replacing Professional for Marquesa, and Chittum 2 degree for 12 degree....


----------



## devrep

CM has some interesting things to say about what it actually costs to make these fancy skiffs we have.


----------



## Water Bound

A lot of CM’s comments should be taken with a grain of salt....regarding both the weight of the Marquesa and his view of “what make a Chittum different” 

Post #78 should be example enough-









Hell's Bay Marquesa v Professional


Photos of the 12 degree. No “flat spots”, except the narrow pad. To me it’s the very light weight of Chittum’s hulls and that they are a full 18 foot boat (with that light weight) that makes the 7” draft for the Mangrove w/ Tohatsu and Snake Bight w/ F70. Wow , impressive, thanks for...




www.microskiff.com


----------



## devrep

yeah, CM doesn't know anything about this business.


----------



## kylet

Stevie said:


> It’s a free country.. have at it with the personal flame wars... I appreciate a lot of your observations, like the displacement verification... but you and James should take it outside or get a room..
> 
> So far we’re not socialists either, so anyone who has earned their way to buying whatever skiff shouldn’t be frowned upon either whether it’s 10, 20%, or 100% more... @kylet this one was not directed at you..


Man if I wanted to get into a flame war, this thread would have been a lot different. You can look through this whole thread. I finally gave a personal dog after several post of gender identity, mocking intelligence, etc. after several times I stuck to stating my point and posting relevant stuff to that. After a while it becomes “what’s the point”. I made a dig and quit. As far as the last post. I felt like it was relevant. It was only bringing up a statement that was said prior. Didn’t include anything extra. I get it. You don’t care and would rather talk about something else. I’ve been at that point from post 1. That’s just really where we are right now in this age, different opinions are not welcomed and usually devolve. I believe I stated that earlier. Just another day.


----------



## kylet

JC Designs said:


> @kylet, out of respect for @Stevie, this forum, it’s members, and myself... I have started editing my trash posts between you and I as they are totally irrelevant to this thread and disrespectful to you, this forum, and all it’s members. I hope you will accept my apology, delete/ edit yours to me as well and let’s put our differences aside for the benefit of the forum and this thread? The site would only allow 10 edits so some will have to stay. What do you say friend?


Man, I ain’t mad at you. Never was. No apology needed. My only request is that we start all conversations with mutual respect.


----------



## JC Designs

kylet said:


> Man, I ain’t mad at you. Never was. No apology needed. My only request is that we start all conversations with mutual respect.


Sounds good to me.


----------



## commtrd

Put the rest of the break-in hours on motir. Typical hot windy TX day running skinny south of Bird Island from causeway, over to King Ranch shoreline and some fairly nasty chop du jour; around Pita Island and back to trailer. It is nice to have that happy feeling that your boat is set up and tuned for what you want to do with it. So no matter which skiff, or scooter, or whatever, if it fits the individual then it's good. It is somewhat amusing to see guys on 24 Shallowsports or Majeks or whatever look over at my little skiff with a smirk on their face. Like they think "when you outgrow that toy boat, then step up to a real boat". Perspectives, opinions, everyone has one. I am good to go, i know those guys could never stalk fish silently in a few inches water to get a fly within inches of spooky fish. Which is more akin to bow hunting than fishing i reckon. On the other hand, i cannot run 50 to 60 mph hauling 5 of la familia or beer-soaked bros to get to Baffin in 45 minutes either so its all a trade-off right? =)


----------



## bryson

Stevie said:


> Howdy @mwolaver,
> 
> I really wanted avoid a shit show... ... given the topic and the audience obviously that’s impossible. This was really supposed to be a nerdy, build technique thread & I purposely wrote my first posts in the most factual, un emotional tone I could.... Glad you’re still hangin in with us.
> 
> @Jason M ‘s first post describing the bow and fishing qualities came the closest to addressing hull design..
> 
> Hull design is above my pay grade... my limited interpretation : Chittum has said from the beginning that their bow design (photo below) eliminates / reduces the pressure wave felt by fish as you approach them, so there’s greater stealth. Bob Branham, who has hull #2 swears by it. The 7 or so top Key West guides who changed to the Chittum 12* in the last 2 years would tell you they get within 30 feet of permit, and could not do so consistently in other boats. In my experience we have approached fish in a way I hadn’t seen before in TX and FL. The 3 biggest bonefish I’ve caught in FL over the past 6 months were within 35 feet of the boat, 2 were within 20’. A month ago we were poling for permit in 2& a half feet of off color, sargassum stained water, & suddenly there’s a 20 lb permit tailing, feeding down at 10 feet off 5 o’clock of the boat, by the poling platform...whether we had passed it, or it caught up to us, don’t know... but it stayed around long enough for me to flub 3 casts (I’d rather have a 45 foot cast then a 20 foot cast with a super long leader & heavy fly).... the radiused corners of the transom (not unique to Chittum) make the boats easier to spin and quieter when poling with chop coming from aft... George talks about the lifting and running strakes ... way above my understanding, but you can see them in the 2nd photo...


I had high hopes for this thread initially -- they were dashed pretty quickly, but it looks like things might be getting back on track. I'm super interested in the nerdy side of this stuff, just for the hell of it. I'm not in the market for a new skiff, and I'm certainly not looking to build and sell skiffs, but I do really enjoy the design/engineering side of things. I definitely dig the advanced materials and manufacturing processes, but for some reason the hull design is really what catches my attention. Since this seems to be the big thing getting addressed, I like the idea of discussing poling characteristics. I do like many other things with respect to Chittum's design though, and hopefully this thread gets there.

This is me thinking through it -- feel free to ignore: So first things first -- a stationary boat won't produce a pressure wave. Okay, simple enough, let's focus on what the boat is doing to produce the pressure wave. So, the "wave" could be created by the boat moving forward, or sideways, or by the hull moving up and down as the guy on the platform leans into the pole. I figure we can ignore the stern for now? Maybe not... It has a significant effect on water movement regardless of the direction you're moving, but I imagine not in any way that would affect a fish in front of the skiff. I don't want to totally discount it yet, but let's ignore it anyway for the sake of the discussion. Okay, anything above the water line won't matter, so focus on what's underwater. First big step, like @ifsteve and @Stevie both said, minimize how much volume is underwater that will be moving. That's pretty straightforward, so let's not belabor the weight/displacement issue.

Next would be to reduce the drag of the hull in any direction it might be moving. I imagine that is already pretty good for most hulls if you're gliding dead straight. If the bow is swinging left or right even slightly (isn't it always), then the bow will make a pressure wave. So, one idea would be to carry minimum deadrise forward until above the waterline, but really anything to minimize drag will help. I see the segmented chines, I'm guessing the benefit is twofold -- it keeps the chine below the waterline to minimize slap (definitely useful), and since it's lower it will contribute to lift for a longer period of time (stays under the waterline slightly longer when getting on plane). It's tough to tell how it may impact the pressure wave, though. Finally, the bow will move up and down as the weight shifts or as the guide leans into the pole. The pressure wave in this scenario is caused by the slope of the sides of the hull. So, it's the same scenario as before. More vertical surfaces help (less increase in displacement outwards), and less drag will help. This _should_ be a pretty small window, so you could definitely tweak the hull right around the loaded waterline without affecting the running characteristics too much. I don't see any weird wave in the hull, so I'm guessing this isn't much of an issue with the typical hull angles, or maybe I've missed something.

Although it gets treated as such, I definitely don't think the pressure wave thing is magic. Still, I'm sure it takes a lot of R&D to optimize the hull shape. Please know that I am in no way trying to discount what those guys are doing, because I absolutely love the engineering behind it (I'm a mechanical engineer that performs/teaches FEA and CFD), but I would love to learn more about it. There absolutely may be things that I'm missing and I would love to discuss them in private if they don't want to be shared openly. Otherwise let's hear a discussion on what you all have noticed that you might think contributes to the success of their design. For the record, I believe their hull design (even without any type of carbon package) would be one of the best on the market, and that's with _very_ little firsthand experience with their skiffs.

Obviously there are things like customer support and build quality that earn them a spot as a premium boat builder, but I would love to talk simply (hah!) about the design of the hull. Maybe some of the owners have seen things that I've missed? I would really like to hear what y'all think.


----------



## commtrd

Is there a weight threshold beyond which the design constraints cease to work as designed? This then would imply pre-planned wetted surface area immersion and coefficient of friction studies to determine laminar flow, aided and abetted by MUCH time spent in a test tank doing exhaustive studies of these technical aspects of a given hull. Then attempting to take into account all probable variables, which is akin to trying to hit the proverbial moving target. I can tell there are some really neat things happening under the waterline on this boat. Exactly what all they are, it is hard to say beyond getting under the thing and studying it. I do feel strongly that the light weight definitely does play into how the hull moves across the water in a major way. Such that if the hull was 25% heavier, some if not all of the design features would likely be negated due to excessive wetted surface profile affecting the bow wave, minimal as it may seem in practice it is tangible. I pick up on more subtle things about the hull every time I run it. Which is pretty darned neat to look forward to every trip just to see what else the boat will or may reveal about itself. George told me the boat was over-engineered; I thought that statement was a bit strange coming from one of the partners in the company. Upon reflection though, I can see that the boat is in fact a really highly tuned shape, intended to fulfill a certain mindset which for the Laguna Madre II hull is extreme shallow-water performance, whereas the boats intended for Florida are tuned in a different direction IMHO. At any rate, I suspect I will be learning subtle nuances about this boat for a long time. Which is pretty awesome.


----------



## commtrd

Another factor to consider would be the inter-activity of different design implementations, i.e. make one change to effect a certain desired trait, and three other things get messed up. Which can be maddening to try to reach the best compromise (if that is the right word) in this context to end up with the best most functional package to include hull stealth, optimal draft, protection from the elements to the extent possible, ergonomics, topside structure enhancement relative to stealth, weight distribution, encompassing optimal options of configuration, just to start to list the plethora of variables taken into consideration. Such that there is likely a pretty good reason these boats are pricey, because it goes much further than just what meets the eye with a very "technical" hull shape.


----------



## JC Designs

bryson said:


> I had high hopes for this thread initially -- they were dashed pretty quickly, but it looks like things might be getting back on track. I'm super interested in the nerdy side of this stuff, just for the hell of it. I'm not in the market for a new skiff, and I'm certainly not looking to build and sell skiffs, but I do really enjoy the design/engineering side of things. I definitely dig the advanced materials and manufacturing processes, but for some reason the hull design is really what catches my attention. Since this seems to be the big thing getting addressed, I like the idea of discussing poling characteristics. I do like many other things with respect to Chittum's design though, and hopefully this thread gets there.
> 
> This is me thinking through it -- feel free to ignore: So first things first -- a stationary boat won't produce a pressure wave. Okay, simple enough, let's focus on what the boat is doing to produce the pressure wave. So, the "wave" could be created by the boat moving forward, or sideways, or by the hull moving up and down as the guy on the platform leans into the pole. I figure we can ignore the stern for now? Maybe not... It has a significant effect on water movement regardless of the direction you're moving, but I imagine not in any way that would affect a fish in front of the skiff. I don't want to totally discount it yet, but let's ignore it anyway for the sake of the discussion. Okay, anything above the water line won't matter, so focus on what's underwater. First big step, like @ifsteve and @Stevie both said, minimize how much volume is underwater that will be moving. That's pretty straightforward, so let's not belabor the weight/displacement issue.
> 
> Next would be to reduce the drag of the hull in any direction it might be moving. I imagine that is already pretty good for most hulls if you're gliding dead straight. If the bow is swinging left or right even slightly (isn't it always), then the bow will make a pressure wave. So, one idea would be to carry minimum deadrise forward until above the waterline, but really anything to minimize drag will help. I see the segmented chines, I'm guessing the benefit is twofold -- it keeps the chine below the waterline to minimize slap (definitely useful), and since it's lower it will contribute to lift for a longer period of time (stays under the waterline slightly longer when getting on plane). It's tough to tell how it may impact the pressure wave, though. Finally, the bow will move up and down as the weight shifts or as the guide leans into the pole. The pressure wave in this scenario is caused by the slope of the sides of the hull. So, it's the same scenario as before. More vertical surfaces help (less increase in displacement outwards), and less drag will help. This _should_ be a pretty small window, so you could definitely tweak the hull right around the loaded waterline without affecting the running characteristics too much. I don't see any weird wave in the hull, so I'm guessing this isn't much of an issue with the typical hull angles, or maybe I've missed something.
> 
> Although it gets treated as such, I definitely don't think the pressure wave thing is magic. Still, I'm sure it takes a lot of R&D to optimize the hull shape. Please know that I am in no way trying to discount what those guys are doing, because I absolutely love the engineering behind it (I'm a mechanical engineer that performs/teaches FEA and CFD), but I would love to learn more about it. There absolutely may be things that I'm missing and I would love to discuss them in private if they don't want to be shared openly. Otherwise let's hear a discussion on what you all have noticed that you might think contributes to the success of their design. For the record, I believe their hull design (even without any type of carbon package) would be one of the best on the market, and that's with _very_ little firsthand experience with their skiffs.
> 
> Obviously there are things like customer support and build quality that earn them a spot as a premium boat builder, but I would love to talk simply (hah!) about the design of the hull. Maybe some of the owners have seen things that I've missed? I would really like to hear what y'all think.


Well said and great points! I see a lot of things in the design that themselves don’t do much but the sum of the combined features do. Now you know I am a simpleton but I’ll talk skiffs with anybody all day long. I’ll dig up some pics and outline what I see is going on and get them to you at some point in the near future. I will say this, there is a design feature that is so subtle it goes unseen by most. This is the feature I believe at least greatly reduces this pressure wave.


----------



## jonny

Stevie said:


> There’s flotation foam in the spray rails, see the 2nd photo for more detail... they add it in the bow sometimes on heavier boats with bigger fuel tanks.
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B5GctTepQnR/


 I thought it was added there to solve the noise issue. With a large hollow cavity. And keep anything from finding its way in there. Doesn’t seem like it would help much in level floatation that high up.


----------



## jonny

Mike Haydon said:


> I have news for you all! Any boat under 20 feet isnt held to the coast guard standards for flotation foam.


I thought it was just the opposite. Boats under 20’ have to have all the floatation. And do the sink your boat for 24 hours. Then see if it floats level after being submerged. And submit video proving the hull is capable of turning at speed. Which all seems idiotic to me. For small low hp low capacity shallow water boats. But you can build a sport fisher load it up with a dozen people. And head miles out into the deep blue. With none of the same requirements of a small boat🤔


----------



## jonny

Tx_Whipray said:


> Man, if you guys think Chittums are expensive you should go price wake surfing boats. My neighbor just bought a new Air Nautique and it cost more than my first house.


Yep I used to drive their factory at 4 am every morning. It’s was lit up like noontime. With a dozens of guys running around with chopper guns. You could smell it a mile before getting too it. You are just a sucker if you pay $150k for a glorified Carolina Skiff with a tower with speakers in it.


----------



## kylet

commtrd said:


> Is there a weight threshold beyond which the design constraints cease to work as designed? This then would imply pre-planned wetted surface area immersion and coefficient of friction studies to determine laminar flow, aided and abetted by MUCH time spent in a test tank doing exhaustive studies of these technical aspects of a given hull. Then attempting to take into account all probable variables, which is akin to trying to hit the proverbial moving target. I can tell there are some really neat things happening under the waterline on this boat. Exactly what all they are, it is hard to say beyond getting under the thing and studying it. I do feel strongly that the light weight definitely does play into how the hull moves across the water in a major way. Such that if the hull was 25% heavier, some if not all of the design features would likely be negated due to excessive wetted surface profile affecting the bow wave, minimal as it may seem in practice it is tangible. I pick up on more subtle things about the hull every time I run it. Which is pretty darned neat to look forward to every trip just to see what else the boat will or may reveal about itself. George told me the boat was over-engineered; I thought that statement was a bit strange coming from one of the partners in the company. Upon reflection though, I can see that the boat is in fact a really highly tuned shape, intended to fulfill a certain mindset which for the Laguna Madre II hull is extreme shallow-water performance, whereas the boats intended for Florida are tuned in a different direction IMHO. At any rate, I suspect I will be learning subtle nuances about this boat for a long time. Which is pretty awesome.


In general, boats with more volume in the water are less negatively affected by added weight. The things that are going to be affected are the performance under power top and low end, stability and the delta of draft at the different weights.


----------



## kylet

bryson said:


> Although it gets treated as such, I definitely don't think the pressure wave thing is magic. Still, I'm sure it takes a lot of R&D to optimize the hull shape. Please know that I am in no way trying to discount what those guys are doing, because I absolutely love the engineering behind it (I'm a mechanical engineer that performs/teaches FEA and CFD), but I would love to learn more about it. There absolutely may be things that I'm missing and I would love to discuss them in private if they don't want to be shared openly. Otherwise let's hear a discussion on what you all have noticed that you might think contributes to the success of their design. For the record, I believe their hull design (even without any type of carbon package) would be one of the best on the market, and that's with _very_ little firsthand experience with their skiffs.


There is nothing in this world that is magic. If it something performs a way, there is a quantitative mathematical reason it does.

This is my thoughts on these boats in general. I would say my interest and experience is similar to yours. We’ve all seen the build threads. I have yet to see a picture that show a difference in the design or building that represent a substantial weight reduction in comparison to other builds.

what I do see, which in my opinion is a pretty desirable trait, is a chittum is a smaller boat below the deck than any other 18 ft boat. You commonly get in these threads and immediately the comparison is to a marquesa or guided or some other large 18 ft boat, but the actual performing hull is much more closer to an HPX 17. It has obvious addition features on the bottom and a spray rail, but it looks to be similar. It should be compared performances with to 17’s, biscayne, evo etc.

So from just obvious looking at chittums, I think one thing that sets chittums apart is the size deck compared to their performing hull. If you look at the benefits of that addition you get a built in drier ride. you get a built in less draft per fishable deck.you get a built in less volume below the water per fishing deck, You get built in more stability due to the horizontal dispersion of weight- dispersion of weight that doesn’t increase water level footprint. Biscaynes are tippy. Hpx 17vs are tippy. Chittums are doing similar to a person sticking their arms out to assist balance/stability.

I don’t really see from what’s out there that there is some secret that sets them apart.


----------



## Stevie

jonny said:


> I thought it was added there to solve the noise issue. With a large hollow cavity. And keep anything from finding its way in there. Doesn’t seem like it would help much in level floatation that high up.


Hi @jonny , you’re probably right about the foam being for noise dampening 

I understand that if the plug were left open, a Chittum will float without flooding the cockpit floor just the drain box... haven’t tried it myself, but that was feedback I got about the flotation question...


----------



## kylet

double post


----------



## kylet

Stevie said:


> Hi @jonny , you’re probably right about the foam being for noise dampening
> 
> I understand that if the plug were left open, a Chittum will float without flooding the cockpit floor just the drain box... haven’t tried it myself, but that was feedback I got about the flotation question...


Yep foam above a waterline has no flotation value. Noise dampening is interesting and makes sense. It could also be an area where they can offset weight of different outboards.


----------



## finbully

Stevie said:


> Yessir, that perspective should resonate universally through the MS community! How do we reach a broader audience?


Two simple suggestions:
Vote for "water friendly" elected officials
Spend as much time writing/communicating with elected officials as one does on social media platforms such as this of the importance of water management changes that are needed right now.


----------



## bryson

kylet said:


> Yep foam above a waterline has no flotation value. Noise dampening is interesting and makes sense. It could also be an area where they can offset weight of different outboards.


I believe the idea is that if the boat were submerged, having the foam up high would encourage the boat to stay upright. In theory, lots of flotation below the waterline could cause the boat to capsize if swamped.


----------



## sotilloa1078

kylet said:


> There is nothing in this world that is magic. If it something performs a way, there is a quantitative mathematical reason it does.
> 
> This is my thoughts on these boats in general. I would say my interest and experience is similar to yours. We’ve all seen the build threads. I have yet to see a picture that show a difference in the design or building that represent a substantial weight reduction in comparison to other builds.
> 
> what I do see, which in my opinion is a pretty desirable trait, is a chittum is a smaller boat below the deck than any other 18 ft boat. You commonly get in these threads and immediately the comparison is to a marquesa or guided or some other large 18 ft boat, but the actual performing hull is much more closer to an HPX 17. It has obvious addition features on the bottom and a spray rail, but it looks to be similar. It should be compared performances with to 17’s, biscayne, evo etc.
> 
> So from just obvious looking at chittums, I think one thing that sets chittums apart is the size deck compared to their performing hull. If you look at the benefits of that addition you get a built in drier ride. you get a built in less draft per fishable deck.you get a built in less volume below the water per fishing deck, You get built in more stability due to the horizontal dispersion of weight- dispersion of weight that doesn’t increase water level footprint. Biscaynes are tippy. Hpx 17vs are tippy. Chittums are doing similar to a person sticking their arms out to assist balance/stability.
> 
> I don’t really see from what’s out there that there is some secret that sets them apart.


I agree. The only thing the chittum and Marquesa have in common is the length. Other than that they’re two totally different boats. The real comparison is between the Chittum and 17 HPX. Which in my opinion they’re the most versatile skiffs on the market.
Reference a few comments back about poling characteristics. I really think some people will never truly know the true pole-ability of their skiff. I say this because some fisheries just don’t have the elements to really push the limits for example wind/high current etc. some people would fall in love even more with their skiff some maybe not so much.


----------



## kylet

bryson said:


> I believe the idea is that if the boat were submerged, having the foam up high would encourage the boat to stay upright. In theory, lots of flotation below the waterline could cause the boat to capsize if swamped.


Very good point, also at that point though it would no longer be “above the water line”.


----------



## SomaliPirate

JC Designs said:


> You need to bring it and my boy @Smackdaddy53 back to Fl.and lets go catch ya’ll a Nature Coast Big fish Slam! If it can get to these places then Chittum is the creme de la creme! I’m talkin’ the big girls btw, 30 plus” red, 35 plus “ snuke”, 60lb or better poon, and if we can get @SomaliPirate to go along we’ll have to do a biggest hardhead calcutta! 🤣
> Hope to complete my “man cave/ guest cabin” this year so accommodations will be handled!


I got me a spot on the back side of Fort Island where the sail cats are big and wild.


----------



## kylet

dp


----------



## SomaliPirate

JC Designs said:


> BTW, @SomaliPirate, the sheepies are stacking up in that secret spot I was telling you about a while back. Just remember the secret fly and you will do good!!!


I'm gonna call you on that one for a refresher. Might actually get to fish next week!


----------



## jonny

commtrd said:


> Ran boat first time. Worst experience i ever had with a new boat. The engine ran super rough, loud as hell, no power, and overheats terribly. Lucky to get a 5 minute run before engine temp hits 210. Feels like crap trying to get on plane. Wish i had ordered anything other than a damned tohatsu to put on it. I paid all that money for this? BUMMED


It ain’t the motor. It’s the way the motor is rigged. Should be a easy fix with some tweaking/learning. There is a reason they chose Tohatsu for most builds. What’s going on with it? You turning too many RPMs? Do have a jack plate or tunnel? This could be affecting water pickup. Almost sounds like it’s too high. With exhaust being loud and No thrust. I’m sure Hal or George can get you straight with these issues


----------



## jonny

😶


----------



## mwolaver

Now we're getting somewhere.... Thank you all for contributing about the hull shape/design. Someone mentioned quiet on the pole. I had an HPXV that was very quite, quieter than my whip/watermans, IMO. But it was tippy and not particularly skinny. The littler whipray hull is near perfect for skinny and calm, but noisy in anything above a minimum chop. Lightness: My first waterman was a no-liner, minimum core boat and super skinny. But IMO it was almost too light and the bow would blow away some, much like my experience in an HPXT. Chittum seems to have designed that away. Pressure wave: I never heard this discussed to any substantive degree before the chittum boat. It was always a "this boat is small and light and therefore doesn't push water". Stability: Kylet explained this pretty well.

So I agree with commander and alonso (and Stevie): this company has made an extreme effort at achieving ALL things important on the pole, better than any other. This, IMO, is what makes the chittum different/better.


----------



## jonny

Stevie said:


> I’m not a boat builder, or technical person, but I pay attention to details. What I tried to illustrate on the first posts was....
> 
> 1- Chittum infuses the hull all in one shot, outer skin, core, inner skin all at once. I don’t see that on other build threads. Usually it’s many passes... infusion of outer skin... then suddenly core is attached to the outer skin... then the inner skin appears (it’s not clear if they’re infusing the 2nd skin and core.... all of which to me must mean more resin, chop, bonding putty etc, WEIGHT...which is not the case with Chittum ..


Stevie pretty sure guys that infuse do it all in one shot. Even the stringers. Chittum has to then add their stringer box in after. Which requires all standard materials and techniques. Not much of a gain weight wise. I think you may be thinking of the skin coat of cloth over the gel coat. To help with print through of the core joints. This usually just hand laid or even sprayed with chopper gun


----------



## commtrd

jonny said:


> It ain’t the motor. It’s the way the motor is rigged. Should be a easy fix with some tweaking/learning. There is a reason they chose Tohatsu for most builds. What’s going on with it? You turning too many RPMs? Do have a jack plate or tunnel? This could be affecting water pickup. Almost sounds like it’s too high. With exhaust being loud and No thrust. I’m sure Hal or George can get you straight with these issues


Fixed already. Motor mounted too high on jack plate. She is all good now.


----------



## sotilloa1078

jonny said:


> Stevie pretty sure guys that infuse do it all in one shot. Even the stringers. Chittum has to then add their stringer box in after. Which requires all standard materials and techniques. Not much of a gain weight wise. I think you may be thinking of the skin coat of cloth over the gel coat. To help with print through of the core joints. This usually just hand laid or even sprayed with chopper gun


that’s incorrect. Here’s a picture of new build from another builder after being infused the stringers will then be tabbed/bonded in.


----------



## jonny

finbully said:


> Those enthralled about weight differences of top shelf flats boat regardless of manufacturer make sure you take a dump before you go fishing. Don't carry that excess weight around.


Don’t forget that 70 pound Yeti.


----------



## jonny

sotilloa1078 said:


> that’s incorrect. Here’s a picture of new build from another builder after being infused the stringers will then be tabbed/bonded in.
> 
> View attachment 152694


The picture you show all but the stringers infused at one time. I was just adding that some even infuse the stringers at the same time. HB used to wet layup the outer. Then bag it. Then sand it for core. Then goop a bunch of putty down for the core. Then I believe they bagged it again to hold the core. Then did a wet layup inner layer. That was then bagged once again for a good bond to the core. All that shit can be done in one shot. It is almost one solid part of like resins through out. Without the added weight of putty. And the worries of the putty cracking or breaking down. Or your employee putting too little. Or too much. HB has just recently abandoned this old but proven technique. It was very high in man hours. I believe I heard Peterson say they have more man hours in a HB. Than Bentley does in their cars. That’s not a good thing these days. If you want to remain competitive. Hence they finally got in on this infusion game last year. Pretty much every manufacturer that infuses does like the pic you posted. Core and all in one shot. Not like what Stevie was describing. Which sounded more like a wet layup vacuum bagging not infusion


----------



## jonny

Stevie said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CDH_WIGANwK/


We need some running shots with sound Stevie


----------



## jonny

Stevie I know I have thanked you in the past. But thanks once again for posting this insight and info. You can speak more from the consumer side of Chittum than anyone can. Wha are you number 4😂
Sorry for blowing this thread up. But I haven’t been on here in a while. Because of all the side show shit that came up in this post. Being a engineering school drop out. I love this technical geeky stuff. When I am at a football game. My mind wonders to the bleacher structure. And I start reverse engineering every brace beam or strap on it. That just the way my mind works.


----------



## sjrobin

Stevie said:


> Can you elaborate on this opinion, Steven? Your comment on the LM is that it will blow away in any wind, but you’ve also said if you were in FL, you would consider a 12 degree, because it tracks better....
> 
> In my experience a 12 degree Mangrove with Tohatsu 50 and a 23 gallon fuel cell should have a 210 mile range. My boat in MX has plastic tanks, because that was the idea of the prototype, a bare bones tiller boat... we’ve run over 90 miles on its 9 gallon plastic tank... when we modified that boat to a center console, I purposely left the plastic tanks for easier maintenance in MX...


The v-hull has more contact with the water and more resistance to wind, unlike the ultra light flat bottom skiffs that require more work to control in wind, both into and down wind when approaching fish or traveling poling lines between fish zones. This is my experience with ultra light skiffs in typical Texas heavy wind. In a perfect light or no wind poling condition, or closed backcountry pond or lake, the ultralight requires less effort to push around. Easy to fall in love with it and exactly why it appeals to the majority of people(includes guides) who want to try their hand at shallow water fish hunting in *Texas.* There is an ideal weight/water contact for poling skiffs. Really simple condition that I have witnessed more than a few skiff pushers experience in ultralight skiffs. Also, any skiff that operates well with only one engine design better have a really excellent engine design mounted on the transom. At sixty five, I realize I am fast approaching the most people category.

On the fuel capacity reference, the LM's I have fished had fourteen gallon fuel tanks, plenty for the most people market. Or did your LM's have twenty three gal. capacity?


----------



## sjrobin

Stevie said:


> Hey Steven @sjrobin ,
> 
> You’re great at hunting fish and poling a skiff ...but.... your remarks have a lot of mis information....
> 
> View attachment 151708
> 
> 
> View attachment 151707
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt a builder could be more revealing than the extensive step by step photos which Chittum has posted on IG and I reposted on this thread. If there’s only 1 IG repost everyone should see, it’s the 3rd one on the first post showing Chittum’s steps in one shot infusion on the hull.
> 
> Of the 4 I’ve owned, 3 were prototypes or the first of a kind: Carbon Race Boat (1st 100% carbon build), LM2 1st 100% Carbon Mangrove build 2 degree,12 degree Mangrove prototype (originally a tiller- converted to center console). All 3 of these boats are my favorites for their application— all have held up under serious use.
> 
> I get a text every month from the 2nd owner of my LM1 tunnel... he raves. Just yesterday:
> 
> “Just fished the LM hard for five days. Hands down the easiest poling skiff made! ... People just don’t understand the difference...”
> 
> @sjrobin, your comment: “There will be lots of variability in the build quality with all the different lay up options offered.” The base Snake Bight layup has been around since 2009. The Snake Bight Performance has been in development since the first “widow maker” was built in 2013 for Thane Morgan & Dustin Huff, later owned bu Nathaniel Linville (that boat is at the Chittum factory for sale with Evinrude 175 — no stress cracks after 7 years running 50-60 mph). The Mangrove / LM2 builds began in the summer of 2018... to me these are the most exciting boats given their super light weight and strong performance with lighter outboards. *** The common denominator of all Chittums since 2009 is 100% infusion— hulls, parts liner & deck... these are very strong boats. The first 2 posts on this thread demonstrate their infusion mastery.
> 
> Your remark: “Hal and George .... have a history of over promise and under deliver.” @sjrobin - you said that to me in 2017! ... I got my 2 new builds 2017& 2018 on time. I believe they’re on hull 149 from the Palm City facility.
> 
> Let’s get out on the water soon!


To be clear, I took the opportunity to fish the two versions of LM's with you and one version with Tom Horbey to see how they would perform both on plane and on the pole. Four trips with your versions and one with Horbey. They all performed pretty well in pretty benign Texas conditions. At the time, I was operating a 2015 Pro, after a 2006 18 Gordon Waterman and 2003 HB Glades skiff, plus various skiffs owned by friends and guides. so my experience was well rounded for Texas, but no experience with 12 deg Florida skiffs. After the trips, without a skiff budget limit and a guide rate offer from both builders, I chose the 2019 HB Pro as a better performing all conditions skiff for all Texas coastal zones.


----------



## Stevie

jonny said:


> Stevie pretty sure guys that infuse do it all in one shot. Even the stringers. Chittum has to then add their stringer box in after. Which requires all standard materials and techniques. Not much of a gain weight wise. I think you may be thinking of the skin coat of cloth over the gel coat. To help with print through of the core joints. This usually just hand laid or even sprayed with chopper gun


Hi Johnny

I don’t want to post photos from other guys’ builds. What I’m seeing is infusion of the outer skin, it’s black...

then the core appears in the boat.... (presumably adhered with bonding putty.... there is a video I would refer to showing just that... NOW I see a later post from you referring to that),

then the outer skin appears... it’s not clear if it has been infused again or not.

For the 12 degree carbon boats Chittum does not add stringers


----------



## Str8-Six

I would like to know how the Chittum compares to a similarly rigged HPX 17? Also, approximately how much weight do you have to put on the bow when poling solo? I assume there is hull slap when not countering the weight of a single person on platform.


----------



## sotilloa1078

Str8-Six said:


> I would like to know how the Chittum compares to a similarly rigged HPX 17? Also, approximately how much weight do you have to put on the bow when poling solo? I assume there is hull slap when not countering the weight of a single person on platform.


The chittum is lighter and a little shallower. Speeds are close with the slight edge going to chittum I believe. It’s not by much. Fit and finish, the chittum will get the nod. They’re both so close to performance. And now with the Carbon edition the pricing isn’t much different either.


----------



## JC Designs

jonny said:


> Stevie I know I have thanked you in the past. But thanks once again for posting this insight and info. You can speak more from the consumer side of Chittum than anyone can. Wha are you number 4😂
> Sorry for blowing this thread up. But I haven’t been on here in a while. Because of all the side show shit that came up in this post. Being a engineering school drop out. I love this technical geeky stuff. When I am at a football game. My mind wonders to the bleacher structure. And I start reverse engineering every brace beam or strap on it. That just the way my mind works.


I accept full responsibility for the side show shit. Will have the rest of my shit posts deleted as soon as the site will allow. Please forgive me, I’m passionate! 😎


----------



## Caspeed

JC Designs said:


> So far so good, whatever he shot in my spinal canal was instant relief! That, and I finally have a team of doctors that are figuring everything that’s been wrong out which is a major stress relief! Now back to the latest Chittum, Hells bay, East Cape drama thread! 🤣 😂 🤣 😂 🤘


I’ve been down that road, with good results. I might be able to give you some more insight into treatment.


----------



## JC Designs

Clasped said:


> I’ve been down that road, with good results. I might be able to give you some more insight into treatment.


Thanks, happy to hear! Please pm me as I have derailed this thread enough already. Chiropractor is next for some decompression!!! 🤙


----------



## Matts

kylet said:


> There is nothing in this world that is magic. If it something performs a way, there is a quantitative mathematical reason it does.
> 
> This is my thoughts on these boats in general. I would say my interest and experience is similar to yours. We’ve all seen the build threads. I have yet to see a picture that show a difference in the design or building that represent a substantial weight reduction in comparison to other builds.
> 
> what I do see, which in my opinion is a pretty desirable trait, is a chittum is a smaller boat below the deck than any other 18 ft boat. You commonly get in these threads and immediately the comparison is to a marquesa or guided or some other large 18 ft boat, but the actual performing hull is much more closer to an HPX 17. It has obvious addition features on the bottom and a spray rail, but it looks to be similar. It should be compared performances with to 17’s, biscayne, evo etc.
> 
> So from just obvious looking at chittums, I think one thing that sets chittums apart is the size deck compared to their performing hull. If you look at the benefits of that addition you get a built in drier ride. you get a built in less draft per fishable deck.you get a built in less volume below the water per fishing deck, You get built in more stability due to the horizontal dispersion of weight- dispersion of weight that doesn’t increase water level footprint. Biscaynes are tippy. Hpx 17vs are tippy. Chittums are doing similar to a person sticking their arms out to assist balance/stability.
> 
> I don’t really see from what’s out there that there is some secret that sets them apart.


 that’s the way my Chittum feels bs my old Mosquito. Night and day.....


----------



## RJTaylor

I don't know about all the bickering, but I'm looking forward to seeing commtrd's on the water. I rarely get south enough to check out Eric Glass's LM.


----------



## Jason M

sotilloa1078 said:


> The chittum is lighter and a little shallower. Speeds are close with the slight edge going to chittum I believe. It’s not by much. Fit and finish, the chittum will get the nod. They’re both so close to performance. And now with the Carbon edition the pricing isn’t much different either.


I've fished out of 17 HPXs quite a bit, my two fishing buddies both have them. They are obviously very good boats. 

I would say the difference is that with the Chittum you are getting the performance of a Microskiff (light weight, less pressure wave, easy to pole, smaller motor, etc) with the benefits of being in a larger skiff (better ride, storage, wide gunnels, fish 4 people lol). When you compare the real estate you feel like you are fishing in a large skiff, the 17HPX feels like a way smaller platform. I changed my mind to the Chittum because I knew that if I went a different route that in 5 years I'd be looking again.

Honestly there's no perfect boat. The perfect skiff is really two. A big one when you are running around and fishing more people and a small one when you need to get skinny or into small water. If I had unlimited funds and garage storage I'd still have a john boat too.


----------



## commtrd

sjrobin said:


> The v-hull has more contact with the water and more resistance to wind, unlike the ultra light flat bottom skiffs that require more work to control in wind, both into and down wind when approaching fish or traveling poling lines between fish zones. This is my experience with ultra light skiffs in typical Texas heavy wind. In a perfect light or no wind poling condition, or closed backcountry pond or lake, the ultralight requires less effort to push around. Easy to fall in love with it and exactly why it appeals to the majority of people(includes guides) who want to try their hand at shallow water fish hunting in *Texas.* There is an ideal weight/water contact for poling skiffs. Really simple condition that I have witnessed more than a few skiff pushers experience in ultralight skiffs. Also, any skiff that operates well with only one engine design better have a really excellent engine design mounted on the transom. At sixty five, I realize I am fast approaching the most people category.
> 
> On the fuel capacity reference, the LM's I have fished had fourteen gallon fuel tanks, plenty for the most people market. Or did your LM's have twenty three gal. capacity?


Agree with all this. I see my ultra-light moved very easily by the wind. As is usual, there is always going to be a trade-off with something or another. No getting around it. I do think the advantages of light weight and stealth are somewhat off-setting to susceptibility of excessive wind. There is likely no absolutely perfect boat for every possible scenario. This boat comes pretty close though I think. Can definitely see where a heavier boat may be preferred in situations where a guide has to make trips and deal with really excessive wind conditions while poling. 

So what to do? If it is really super windy, i just do something else. Trying to go out and flyfish when the wind is blowing 35 to 40+ sucks anyway. Guides may need to do that; I do not. Problem solved! =)


----------



## ifsteve

I am curious to hear from those who say "better ride" why that is? Certainly hull design has a lot to do with that. But hull material and weight are also key components are they not? Super light weight and stiff materials seems to be counter productive with a smooth ride.


----------



## devrep

I don't think too many are fishing in 35 to 40.


----------



## Sublime

devrep said:


> I don't think too many are fishing in 35 to 40.


I don't. Well, there have been times when it started slicked off and ended up Victory at Sea conditions. But normally I go when conditions are good and I spend a lot of time on leeward shorelines or in ponds connected by creeks that a skiff can barely get through. Light is good for me.


----------



## commtrd

My boat does not ride too super smooth in nasty chop. I can get it on top somewhat, but really a 2* deadrise is going to ride exactly like you suspect it would.


----------



## CKEAT

commtrd said:


> My boat does not ride too super smooth in nasty chop. I can get it on top somewhat, but really a 2* deadrise is going to ride exactly like you suspect it would.


Did your Pro ride better?


----------



## commtrd

I would say that it took heavy chop a little better. It was so much heavier and had a sharper deeper bow section, that when tabbed down really took the chop apart. The Chittum will also handle chop with the bow tabbed down, but the ride on the Pro was more plush and sedate. On the other hand, the LM2 poles so much easier and better there really is no contest at all. Now in really high wind, the Professional may be desired but i dont intend to be out in extreme wind conditions anyway. 

As said before, with all boats there are tradeoffs and caveats that each prospective owner must qualify for themselves. In this case the Professional rode better, and the Chittum does pretty much everything else better. IMHO However it is all relative. Some may well prefer a Professional or Waterman over other boats. One thing for sure, at this level they are all stinkin' expensive. Count on that.


----------



## devrep

my little boat gets pretty skinny and runs super skinny but its not the happiest when it gets too white cappy.


----------



## JC Designs

devrep said:


> my little boat gets pretty skinny and runs super skinny but its not the happiest when it gets too white cappy.
> View attachment 152885
> 
> Well if you’re runnin’ her around here, she runs skinny no doubt. And Crystal bay to Wacasassa can get pretty snotty!


----------



## devrep

yeah, scared the hell out of my grandson coming back across the bay in a thunderstorm last year. really piles up in that shallow bitch (the bay).


----------



## JC Designs

devrep said:


> yeah, scared the hell out of my grandson coming back across the bay in a thunderstorm last year. really piles up in that shallow bitch (the bay).


Oh yeah! I’ve seen some damn big water up between long point and the barge canal too! Scary big!


----------



## Matts

CKEAT said:


> Did your Pro ride better?


I've heard from Hal that they weighed a Pro hull alone and it was about #1100. I surely can't verify that but the LM 2 is about 350# and you can feel it as you pick up either end and on the pole. It's a very different ride but I've only spent a couple of days in a Pro. The Pro hull has a very different bow entry vs the 2 degree LM2. I would think when the weather went bad, the Pro might be a little smoother than the basically flat bottom LM2. That being said, if you know how to drive it, the Chittum is dry and the draft difference is significant. Take a test ride with the TX Chittum rep, Stephen Ford and see what you think. I personally think the LM2 and Pro are VERY different hulls. The top cap of the Chittum is much wider and it floats much higher in the water. To me, the Pro (I demoed one and fished one with a guide) was more like my Mosquito. Heavy, cuts through waves and a pretty smooth ride.


----------



## Matts

commtrd said:


> I would say that it took heavy chop a little better. It was so much heavier and had a sharper deeper bow section, that when tabbed down really took the chop apart. The Chittum will also handle chop with the bow tabbed down, but the ride on the Pro was more plush and sedate. On the other hand, the LM2 poles so much easier and better there really is no contest at all. Now in really high wind, the Professional may be desired but i dont intend to be out in extreme wind conditions anyway.
> 
> As said before, with all boats there are tradeoffs and caveats that each prospective owner must qualify for themselves. In this case the Professional rode better, and the Chittum does pretty much everything else better. IMHO However it is all relative. Some may well prefer a Professional or Waterman over other boats. One thing for sure, at this level they are all stinkin' expensive. Count on that.


I've found that if it's just me (185#) and my 15 yr old (maybe 130#) with the Yeti 45 in the middle and him on the bow, it could ride just a bit bow high. Still ZERO hull slap but back when he was about 30 pound lighter, I just moved the cooler onto the bow and problem solved. With my other 250# buddy on board (all 3 of us), it poles fine, even into the wind. Granted, it's wider so there's that to work around but without sponsons (to me, a BIG bonus), the Chittum is much easier to deal with on the pole and draft is just stupid skinny. I've gotten out to push only twice and it was about 4" of water over hard bottom. It's a 5" skiff with an average load. Note: I have no power pole, TM, TM battery, etc. It's fairly bare bones. I do alway have a full Yeti 45 on board as I like to eat and stay hydrated. The Chittum is a much wider and more stable platform vs about all other hulls out there right now, at least the 2 degree LM2. I've never stepped foot on a 12 degree. I have also fished a couple half carbon LM1 tunnels and while maybe 100# heavier (Stevie, tell me if I'm wrong), they were equally amazing. It's about the hull design, much lighter weight and engine set up, IMO. I have a full carbon but I'd happily run a 1/2 carbon tunnel or non-tunnel for what I do here in TX.


----------



## CKEAT

Yea I am going to hitch a ride with Stephen here in mid sept. I have my pro running light, it’s side console with lithium’s and I taped it to test real draft this weekend. I would like to know because it does handle rough water shockingly well.

I was a bit concerned with the bow design on the mangrove, all that are I Texas know, getting to the spots and making long runs sometimes lands you in rough conditions. Just the way it is. Just need to find out if the trade offs are worth it.

I have put a good bit of money in this pro, most of which wasn’t needed but I like to make it much my own. Re powering now. I will say, I still have way less than the LM II will set me back.


----------



## commtrd

Shoot if your Professional is where you want it and works well for you, should just keep that and run it. Especially if re-powering the boat. Stephen has his LM2 non-tunnel sold, expecting a new LM2 full carbon tunnel in November. So in mid-September will be riding on the non-tunnel hull, which is neat because you could test ride that hull and then shortly after test ride on a tunnel hull LM2. Prepare to be amazed at what that non-tunnel hull will do. I almost decided on one; in fact my initial order was for the non-tunnel, but I am glad I did get the tunnel. Cannot go wrong with either hull. Except the old wallet will take an ass-kicking for sure.


----------



## CKEAT

Yea that is my dilemma, l do really like this pro.

Definitely will pick the windiest day while down there a week and have Stephen put it through the paces. Will be good times at the very least.

When folks say it may not be best in the wind, it’s always windy on the Texas coast.


----------



## Matts

CKEAT said:


> Yea that is my dilemma, l do really like this pro.
> 
> Definitely will pick the windiest day while down there a week and have Stephen put it through the paces. Will be good times at the very least.
> 
> When folks say it may not be best in the wind, it’s always windy on the Texas coast.


Granted, I can only really compare it to my Mosquito and old custom Jon but I have no complaints in the wind. It’s such a light skiff that it does well on the pole.


----------



## Stevie

My sequence of TX boats was : 178, Caimen, Stiffy Xisle tunnel, wateman 16 tunnel, LM1 tunnel, LM2. This talk about Chittums being not good in the wind is nonsense to me. Maybe I forgot about the attributes of the 178... but I found it wet, and very difficult to pole into the wind...Specifically I had to be on the stick or it got off track and turned around if I hesitated at all/ stopped to take a drink... (I kept the 178 for a year after I got the Caimen to be sure & then switched).. the 178 had a 70 2 stroke and a JP. The 178 was probably the most beautiful of all the boats. My favorite was the LM2. Nearly every time we went out, we pushed the limit of the 5” draft. As SJR says 1” in TX gains a lot of acreage of fishing grounds, certainly 2+” does. Never any issue poling into, and certainly not down wind... I found the 178 fishing was limited to deeper tides and open shorelines. Limited access to back country.

One place I reference in POC is the shallow bar as you go into Mule Slough from oilfield 2 ... the 178, Caimen, Waterman 16 tunnel all went aground there... never got stuck in the LM1 or LM2 and we went on very low tides. Once I found out the shallow running/ hole shot capabilities of the LM1/LM2, it opened a lot possibilities for exploration of TX back country... definitely a lot of fun..

We can all write our keyboard jockey perspectives... really need to sea trial.


----------



## sotilloa1078

Jason M said:


> I've fished out of 17 HPXs quite a bit, my two fishing buddies both have them. They are obviously very good boats.
> 
> I would say the difference is that with the Chittum you are getting the performance of a Microskiff (light weight, less pressure wave, easy to pole, smaller motor, etc) with the benefits of being in a larger skiff (better ride, storage, wide gunnels, fish 4 people lol). When you compare the real estate you feel like you are fishing in a large skiff, the 17HPX feels like a way smaller platform. I changed my mind to the Chittum because I knew that if I went a different route that in 5 years I'd be looking again.
> 
> Honestly there's no perfect boat. The perfect skiff is really two. A big one when you are running around and fishing more people and a small one when you need to get skinny or into small water. If I had unlimited funds and garage storage I'd still have a john boat too.


I agree with you 100% that’s the main reason I went with my current skiff. I feel like it does the work of two boats in one!


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## CKEAT

I will test it myself, no doubt.


----------



## Matts

Stevie said:


> My sequence of TX boats was : 178, Caimen, Stiffy Xisle tunnel, wateman 16 tunnel, LM1 tunnel, LM2. This stuff about Chittums being not good in the wind is nonsense to me. Maybe I forgot about the attributes of the 178... but I found it wet, and very difficult to pole in the wind...Specifically I had to be on the stick or it got off track and turned around if I hesitated at all. (I kept the 178 for a year after I got the Caimen to be sure & switched) Had a 70 2 stroke and a JP. The 178 was probably the most beautiful of all the boats. My favorite was the LM2. Nearly every time we went out, we pushed the limit of the 5” draft. As SJR says 1” in TX gains a lot of acreage of fishing grounds, certainly 2+” does. Never any issue poling into, and certainly not down wind... I found the 178 fishing was limited to deeper tides and open shorelines. Limited access to back country. One place I reference in POC is the shallow bar as you go into Mule Slough from oilfield 2 ... the 178, Caimen, Waterman 16 tunnel all went aground there... never got stuck in the LM1 or LM2 and we went on very low tides.
> 
> We can all write our keyboard jockey perspectives... really need to sea trial.


Indeed I question whether Stevies old LM2 is a 5”, or 4” skiff. I stuck it with my son and another teenager in it poling back in a very shallow back lake in POC. Once we hopped out it just floated. I was the only boat they could get back there to fish and they were air boats hovering around pulling everybody out from that super low tide. The way the skiff is rigged, I do think I can probably float in four. I’ll get pictures next time. I guess that may be one of the benefits of having the full Carvin as it surely lighter than the old LM 1 in half Carbon But I was an entirely different layup too.


----------



## Stevie

Re: Yamaha vs Tohatsu in TX/ 2 degree boats/ LMs.... the weight advantage of 55 lbs is important.. and 55 lbs is important to balancing the boat on LM2 or Mangrove build.. but equally important to any 2 degree boat is the lower poling platform afforded by the 15” shaft—- it’s like 32” tall on the LM2 non tunnel and maybe 34” on the tunnel version.

Very few LMs have been built with Yamaha 70. The layup for a F70 is the standard Snake Bight / LM1 with 3/4” core, still a very light and capable boat.. But the F70 LM1 requires a lot taller poling platform 38-40” and or a notch in the platform to accommodate the 20” shaft Yamaha mounted so tall on a JP. Chittum strongly resists mounting poling platforms forward of the transom, (which is the solution for many other manufacturers), to balance a boat... Hal feels it’s very hard to pole if your not over the transom... which is true unless you’re always in a shallow water column... The speed gain with the F70 has been something like 2-3 mph over the Tohatsu 50, and Tohatsu 60 is very close Or same as F70... One guy with a F70 LM1 reached out to me to ask about switching to a Tohatsu 60 because he wanted to make his boat even lighter...


----------



## commtrd

Stevie said:


> My sequence of TX boats was : 178, Caimen, Stiffy Xisle tunnel, wateman 16 tunnel, LM1 tunnel, LM2. This talk about Chittums being not good in the wind is nonsense to me. Maybe I forgot about the attributes of the 178... but I found it wet, and very difficult to pole into the wind...Specifically I had to be on the stick or it got off track and turned around if I hesitated at all/ stopped to take a drink... (I kept the 178 for a year after I got the Caimen to be sure & then switched).. the 178 had a 70 2 stroke and a JP. The 178 was probably the most beautiful of all the boats. My favorite was the LM2. Nearly every time we went out, we pushed the limit of the 5” draft. As SJR says 1” in TX gains a lot of acreage of fishing grounds, certainly 2+” does. Never any issue poling into, and certainly not down wind... I found the 178 fishing was limited to deeper tides and open shorelines. Limited access to back country.
> 
> One place I reference in POC is the shallow bar as you go into Mule Slough from oilfield 2 ... the 178, Caimen, Waterman 16 tunnel all went aground there... never got stuck in the LM1 or LM2 and we went on very low tides. Once I found out the shallow running/ hole shot capabilities of the LM1/LM2, it opened a lot possibilities for exploration of TX back country... definitely a lot of fun..
> 
> We can all write our keyboard jockey perspectives... really need to sea trial.


Well there it is. Well said and accurate too. That deal about one inch less draft is so true. In the LLM, that one inch of draft can be and usually is critical. So overall, for my intended use, there really is no better boat. I can see that in FL or deeper waters, a 12* would be the ticket. For here, the (at least) 2" less draft (conservative) compared to my Professional is huge. Add in the better performance, and it is not arguable really [for me] what boat i should have. IMHO


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## El Capitan

commtrd said:


> I would say that it took heavy chop a little better. It was so much heavier and had a sharper deeper bow section, that when tabbed down really took the chop apart. The Chittum will also handle chop with the bow tabbed down, but the ride on the Pro was more plush and sedate. On the other hand, the LM2 poles so much easier and better there really is no contest at all. Now in really high wind, the Professional may be desired but i dont intend to be out in extreme wind conditions anyway.
> 
> As said before, with all boats there are tradeoffs and caveats that each prospective owner must qualify for themselves. In this case the Professional rode better, and the Chittum does pretty much everything else better. IMHO However it is all relative. Some may well prefer a Professional or Waterman over other boats. One thing for sure, at this level they are all stinkin' expensive. Count on that.


I’m curious about your real world comparison of your pro (assuming it had a tunnel - Yamaha f70) and the LM. Draft on plane, water needed to jump up, draft at rest. 
I’ve had the tunnel pro as my next step purchase for a few years but everyone loves the LM, and there seem to be very few folks in TX who’ve actually run the tunnel pro for any amount of time and the LM. Thoughts on those comparisons?


----------



## Matts

El Capitan said:


> I’m curious about your real world comparison of your pro (assuming it had a tunnel - Yamaha f70) and the LM. Draft on plane, water needed to jump up, draft at rest.
> I’ve had the tunnel pro as my next step purchase for a few years but everyone loves the LM, and there seem to be very few folks in TX who’ve actually run the tunnel pro for any amount of time and the LM. Thoughts on those comparisons?


Keith will answer was the that better But the real problem, is the F 70 is heavy, and a 20 inch shaft so typically has to be raised to have the prop near even with the tunnel. They send them out the door with a engine mounted to low. The engine height needs to be such that the prop is near the tunnel, not 6 inches below it if you want the tunnel to have any benefit at all. I think it will take at least 12 if not 15 inches to jump a standard Hills pro up in our waters, which is about twice that needed for the LM. I almost ordered a pro and talked extensively with the guys at HB about this but they really didn’t want to experiment with a short shaft engine and wanted me to do all the experimental work once I bought the boat. I think if you set a pro up correctly, it may work, but I wasn’t willing to deal with all the rerigging.


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## CKEAT

I believe there is a new build (21 pro) with tahatsu 60 coming soon, Can’t remember the persons user name on here.


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## scissorhands

Matts said:


> Keith will answer was the that better But the real problem, is the F 70 is heavy, and a 20 inch shaft so typically has to be raised to have the prop near even with the tunnel. They send them out the door with a engine mounted to low. The engine height needs to be such that the prop is near the tunnel, not 6 inches below it if you want the tunnel to have any benefit at all. I think it will take at least 12 if not 15 inches to jump a standard Hills pro up in our waters, which is about twice that needed for the LM. I almost ordered a pro and talked extensively with the guys at HB about this but they really didn’t want to experiment with a short shaft engine and wanted me to do all the experimental work once I bought the boat. I think if you set a pro up correctly, it may work, but I wasn’t willing to deal with all the rerigging.


I doubt it takes 12-15" to jump a non tunnel pro up, maybe if the driver has no clue with what they are doing. 


CKEAT said:


> I believe there is a new build (21 pro) with tahatsu 60 coming soon, Can’t remember the persons user name on here.


That would be me.


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## scissorhands

El Capitan said:


> I’m curious about your real world comparison of your pro (assuming it had a tunnel - Yamaha f70) and the LM. Draft on plane, water needed to jump up, draft at rest.
> I’ve had the tunnel pro as my next step purchase for a few years but everyone loves the LM, and there seem to be very few folks in TX who’ve actually run the tunnel pro for any amount of time and the LM. Thoughts on those comparisons?


Mine should be here in a few weeks tunnel pro. I had a choice and I went with the HB.


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## Sublime

Here is where y'all start to lose me. What kind of bottom are people getting up in with half the prop out of the water and water intakes completely out of the water ?


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## scissorhands

upper Texas coast, mostly mud/soft bottom here.


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## jsnipes

Sublime said:


> Here is where y'all start to lose me. What kind of bottom are people getting up in with half the prop out of the water and water intakes completely out of the water ?


same same. let's say there is 6" of hull in the water. the top of the prop is basically aligned to bottom of the hull on a non-tunnel boat. i should go measure it but I am guessing prop + skeg is at least 10-12". So, in a firm bottom even if you stay completely level I don't see how it's possible in less than 16-18"?


----------



## Sublime

scissorhands said:


> upper Texas coast, mostly mud/soft bottom here.


Agreed on that. This is where you can power your way on plane. A note here is that my 30 horse etec on my GladesX tunnel didn't have enough oomph to get the job done, even spinning up.


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## scissorhands

Sublime said:


> Agreed on that. This is where you can power your way on plane. A note here is that my 30 horse etec on my GladesX tunnel didn't have enough oomph to get the job done, even spinning up.


Same thing with my glide, didn't have enough oomph to get up


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## CKEAT

@Smackdaddy53
let’s hear it man. I know you have some input.


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## commtrd

Choices are good. My personal experience with my 2017 Professional was this: I took delivery of the boat, and discovered that the motor was mounted way too low on the jack plate to render the tunnel functional at all. At that time, it took around 2 feet of water to get that pig on plane. I remember vividly the shakedown cruise with John McCain the TX HB rep on board; at Nighthawk Bay, I had to pole that boat way out near the Intercoastal to have enough water to jump up. I was pissed. 

I ended up taking the boat to Mac in Victoria, to assist in pulling the motor off the jack plate and relocate it on a piece of 6061 1/2" aluminum plate I had ordered. So we lifted it up 3" on the jack plate, leaving the jack plate at its original location on the transom. Subsequently, the boat behaved so much better for hole shot and general performance like a tunnel is supposed to work. I could reliably get her up in a foot of water and it drafted around 9" or so, could run in about 7" but I did not push it hard into some really shallow areas in LLM to find out just how skinny it would really go either. But I would say it was mostly sufficient for the areas in upper LM to all points north as a rule. Boat felt very heavy on the pole, had a very plush ride in heavy chop. Quite a bit of noise (IMHO) from the sponsons. Again, these are strictly my impressions from my professional that I owned. Nothing here intended to get the HB fanboys all wound up. I too had a choice and did visit with the new guy over there at HB about a Waterman tiller with a custom designed center rack mount box for electronics etc. Which would have trick and very nice BTW. This was largely based on visiting with Steve Robinson about how his Professional performed with the F60 non-tunnel hull tiller.

OK so I ended up ordering a Chittum LM2 full carbon package. I purposely omitted troll motor, batteries, power pole to keep the boat minimal as possible to shave weight off. Initial impressions of this boat: draft approximately 5", poles much easier with greatly reduced effort, love the front porch on the poling platform, have got on plane sitting on mud, does not handle heavy chop as well as the professional did BUT still acceptable for a 2* hull. Hull is dead silent. Spins on the pole like a dream. No sponsons. I have almost all the break-in time done, so have not been dogging it hard on purpose. Tohatsu 60 short-shaft seems to be a solid performer, is noisier than a F70. I think the OB weighs in at 211 vs 258 for the F70. The short shaft allows for a shorter poling platform which I like a lot. The PP on the pro was very tall to accomadate the taller F70. So far it looks like to me the LM2 tunnel full carbon hull is going to be a killer fishing machine. It is an extremely serious highly tuned hull for extreme shallow water fly fishing. It was stupid expensive. Such are my impressions for the near 10 hours of run time I currently have on it. Not much, but this damned work thing keeps getting in the way LOL. 

The HB Pro was a beautiful, functional boat after amending the motor rigging somewhat. The Chittum LM2 is absolutely stunning in performance, maybe not quite as beautiful lines, which is subjective, but for me performance takes serious precedence over looks any day. I think the LM2 is a gorgeous boat and its performance only reinforces that. Don't have near enough time on the boat yet to go much further than that, initial impressions from running by myself and with Stephen Ford over in Copano. The Simrad 9" is sick, got the TX mapping chip and that is tits. 

Hope this helps anyone contemplating what boat if indeed either one of these to buy. For my intended usage the LM2 is the more logical choice. For anyone else, that may be directly reversed. Keep in mind I purposely ordered the tunnel for deep south TX LLM excursions into extreme shallow water. The guy who fishes mainly Galveston and Louisiana, may not even need a tunnel at all. YMMV as usual. Apologies before hand to any HB afficionados who might get their feelings hurt over this. Just think: the Shallowsport barge drivers look down their long noses laughing at us "idiots" who run skiffs that cost more than their boats did... So it's all relative yes? Whatever.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

Sublime said:


> Here is where y'all start to lose me. What kind of bottom are people getting up in with half the prop out of the water and water intakes completely out of the water ?


They aren’t. Just like people claiming running a skiff 30mph in 2’ chop...it’s most likely 1’ or less. I don’t care who you are you aren’t getting a non tunnel on plane in 8” of water without dredging bottom. If it’s sand...forget about it with a non tunnel much less a tunnel. You’re looking at a 13-14” diameter prop even on a skiff with 5” draft and 3-4” of prop below the hull tell me hopping up in 8” on hard sand is physically possible. You can’t bullshit a bullshitter or a guy that makes 8-10” holeshots every trip at least once or twice. I’d rather pole to a pothole and jump up in a foot but it’s not always possible. As far as intakes out of the water...you can’t run any outboard with intakes out of the water on a regular basis and not be replacing water pump impellers once a month. This is more believable if you have some sort of low water pickup like mine, Chittum’s or a Bob’s nosecone. Not trying to hurt feelings or debate.


----------



## Matts

scissorhands said:


> I doubt it takes 12-15" to jump a non tunnel pro up, maybe if the driver has no clue with what they are doing.
> 
> That would be me.


So did you go with a short shaft 60? I’ve seen guides need at least 12” to jump a Pro up on sand, but Steve would be a better person to ask.


----------



## scissorhands

Matts said:


> So did you go with a short shaft 60? I’ve seen guides need at least 12” to jump a Pro up on sand, but Steve would be a better person to ask.


I did go with the short shaft 60. I've never owned a HB pro before, but I will be as transparent as commrd has been with both his chittum and HB.


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## CKEAT

If HB has half a mind to do it they could make few tweaks to the 17.8 and it would be a different world. They obviously don’t care about the Texas market.


----------



## Str8-Six

Why no love for the Suzuki 60?


----------



## Stevie

Hi @Sublime

The short answer is yes, FOR HOLESHOT ONLY— we were running Tohatsu 50s with the prop at the water level and intakes exposed.... we had Jack Foreman scoop intakes. The Tohatsu can run 15-30 seconds like that...it continues to run with the alarm going off.... and, once you drop the engine down, hot engine temps drop quickly... As soon as you get on plane or start to, you gradually drop the engine on JP and or trim..The guy who bought my LM1 burned out an impeller in one day running the JP all the way up. I suspect Keith’s alarms last week may have been partially due to running with the engine all the way up, in addition to 1.5” adjustment on the engine. (Both Keith and the LM1 buyer had previously run tunnel Pro/Waterman 16, with OB’s mounted lower, so understandable they had to adjust to the Chittum).

ONE IMPORTANT point about Chittums: these boats are very “corky”. You can be running WOT and back completely off the throttle abruptly, you won’t flood the transom... I never can put water over the back deck when dry launching or backing up (unless reversing in big chop)..... this was not the case with many other boats I had, especially tunnels, which could easily flood when in reverse.

My experience running/ hole shot on LM1 tunnel/ LM2 non tunnel:

LM1 tunnel was a 6” poling draft; LM2 was 5” (with 2 guys averaging 225 lbs)...

Either boat could run in 4” of water. There’s a curious phenomenon when you run super shallow— the bow has no where to porpoise, so you can trim the engine up in a non tunnel boat... tabs can help too.

For holeshot— I confess we would interact with the bottom if necessary...

A friend that showed me how to run the LM1 jumped my LM1 tunnel up in 6” of water (where we were basically touching bottom when poling) with the Tohatsu 50 on a hard sand bottom... How? I sat on the bow and we both leaned to the Port side of the boat. The guy gently applied the throttle, turning a circle to the Port side & we slowly jumped up.... my own experience was it was easy to jump up in 7” of water on the LM1 tunnel.

For the LM2 non tunnel, hole shot was the only draw back. I would usually put the tabs down, have the angler sit on the bow, sometimes leaning to the Port side. Sometimes I would stand in front of the console while jumping on plane... I’M NOT RECOMMENDING any of this.... I would jack the engine up to 5” on the JP or all the way up... then tilt the engine up a bit, and ease into a holeshot in 8-9” of water.... I did this one day in the 9 Mile Hole fishing with SJR. We were on a sand bottom flat and were dragging on the 5” of draft. I was able to pole , then putt putt to that 8-9” depth of water & jump up... Otherwise we had 20 minutes or so to get off the given flat...

Here are photos of the LM 2 jacked all the way up– skeg was 4” above the bottom of the hull, but trimmed up, we got it pretty high... I never had any prop shaft issues that have plagued Tohatsus.

Now that I’m in FL, with beautiful turtle grass and a channel within easy poling distance, I’m grateful not to have to jump through those extreme hoops which we experience in TX... it’s hard to explain all this to people here... and I’m grateful to be running a 12 degree boat...


----------



## devrep

the hatsus have several drain holes way down low so water won't freeze in the lower unit if you live up north. I believe these also intake water to some degree when the motor is jacked up.


----------



## JC Designs

Wait, let me get this straight please...
You mean to tell me, that it is 2020 and someone builds a skiff with a tunnel and doesn’t raise the transom to accommodate the tunnel? I mean, I know hatsu makes a 15” motor but that seriously limits one’s power options! You can’t just start out with a 20” transom, cut in a tunnel, and slap a 20” motor on it without adding the depth of the tunnel back to the height of the transom! Sure, a jackplate will get you there, but would need to be maxed all the time rendering it somewhat useless and seriously limiting the ability of the tunnel.


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## Stevie

This is the raised transom and higher platform on LM1 with F70:


__
http://instagr.am/p/BmybyoPgY-v/


----------



## JC Designs

Stevie said:


> This is the raised transom and higher platform on LM1 with F70:
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BmybyoPgY-v/


Proper set up!


----------



## Matts

scissorhands said:


> I did go with the short shaft 60. I've never owned a HB pro before, but I will be as transparent as commrd has been with both his chittum and HB.


That will be cool as I’m not sure I’ve seen anybody put a short shaft on the pro. Perhaps that will be the ticket.


----------



## Matts

Stevie said:


> This is the raised transom and higher platform on LM1 with F70:
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BmybyoPgY-v/


That’s an interesting picture as it’s not a Laguna Madre II and it’s a tunnel. Is this a recent production boat? Did somebody specifically order the Laguna Madre I? TX skiff!


----------



## JC Designs

Matts said:


> That will be cool as I’m not sure I’ve seen anybody put a short shaft on the pro. Perhaps that will be the ticket.


If the distance from the top of the tunnel to the top of the transom is only 15-16” it surely will be the ticket! 🤙


----------



## Stevie

This pic was from 2018. Again, Chittum doesn’t as yet put the F70 on the lighter LM2... If someone wants a F70, it’s a LM1 (same as Snake Bight layup with 3/4” core). I know they shipped one of these last year, after the LM2 was out. To me the Tohatsu 60 15” for 2 degree boat is way better. I don’t like that tall poling platform mounted so far forward


----------



## Jason M

Here is a tangent question. How deep are you guys dipping the trailer when loading your Chittum? I am scared to only get the rubber wet on the tires which is fine for launching. I am afraid I will drag the skeg if I try to load it that way.

Are you guys also powering it all most of the way up the trailer also? My old skiff and winch on trailer required me to dunk the trailer pretty deep.


----------



## commtrd

When i was experiencing difficulty with overheating, i never had the jack plate close to half way up. Usually at around 2 or lower. Evidently the motor was just mounted really too high on the jack plate. Stephen saw that immediately. Never having run or even seen a Chittum tunnel until i bot mine, i didnt know exactly the right mounting height. Assuming it was set right from the shop, i didnt know what the cause was. 

It's all good now. I suspect i may need to change the impeller at 6 months just for peace of mind if nothing else. One thing for sure, on a super highly tuned hull like this, small adjustments can make a really big difference. I have an oil filter coming to change engine oil post break-in. I know its fixing to get beat on down south going REAL shallow so need to take good care of it.


----------



## sotilloa1078

Jason M said:


> Here is a tangent question. How deep are you guys dipping the trailer when loading your Chittum? I am scared to only get the rubber wet on the tires which is fine for launching. I am afraid I will drag the skeg if I try to load it that way.
> 
> Are you guys also powering it all most of the way up the trailer also? My old skiff and winch on trailer required me to dunk the trailer pretty deep.


I get the tires to the water on the launch. When I load the boat back on the trailer I will go back a little further to get the roller a little closer to the water so the transition onto the trailer isn’t so bad. I motor the boat just over roller and hook up. The power winch does the rest.


----------



## commtrd

So far just submerging the rear roller on both launch and retrieve. Seen water up to bottom of hubs. May depend on steepness of any particular boat ramp i guess.


----------



## Matts

Stevie said:


> This pic was from 2018. Again, Chittum doesn’t as yet put the F70 on the lighter LM2... If someone wants a F70, it’s a LM1 (same as Snake Bight layup with 3/4” core). I know they shipped one of these last year, after the LM1 was out. To me the Tohatsu 60 15” for 2 degree boat is way better. I don’t like that y’all platform mounted so far forward


Agree! I love the shorter platform! Only way I would have it. Don't want to accommodate a larger, heavier engine. Mine's perfect even with just a 50.


----------



## Matts

Jason M said:


> Here is a tangent question. How deep are you guys dipping the trailer when loading your Chittum? I am scared to only get the rubber wet on the tires which is fine for launching. I am afraid I will drag the skeg if I try to load it that way.
> 
> Are you guys also powering it all most of the way up the trailer also? My old skiff and winch on trailer required me to dunk the trailer pretty deep.


I've mainly launched with the water just below the hubs but most ramps, that is not necessary. I've gone to just having the roller even with the water or just submerged for both. It is a bit of a pain to winch it up without power but minor details as the skiff is just not heavy.


----------



## commtrd

Doesnt seem like a F70 would be appropriate for a hull like the LM2.


----------



## Stevie

sotilloa1078 said:


> I get the tires to the water on the launch. When I load the boat back on the trailer I will go back a little further to get the roller a little closer to the water so the transition onto the trailer isn’t so bad. I motor the boat just over roller and hook up. The power winch does the rest.


Same level of dunking on launch/ reload... don’t have a powerwinch. We power up about half way on the bunks, hook up, turn of the engine, then crank it up. Try to trim up some when loading back up and when launching.


----------



## jonny

I agree that the 15” is the way to go. When I built my skiff. I built it around the Tohatsu. They call for 16” at the transom. To get in the ballpark. So I made my transom 17”. For a built in 1” rise. Before I even move it up a hole. A 20” gives zero advantage to a low freeboard skiff. The COG is raised all the time with power head higher. Then it only gets worse once you climb to the top of that 3 foot ladder. Plus it just looks odd. With low freeboard and a jacked up transom. The only problem is the lack of options. But the few options we have are pretty damn good.


----------



## CKEAT

If Yamaha would make a short shaft it would be a bit lighter


----------



## JC Designs

CKEAT said:


> If Yamaha would make a short shaft it would be a bit lighter


Yamaha needs to get on the ball again with their 90 & smaller motors! I know they did the 25 portable, but a lightweight 70 & 90 would be awesome! Zuke should also!


----------



## Jason M

Stevie said:


> Same level of dunking on launch/ reload... don’t have a powerwinch. We power up about half way on the bunks, hook up, turn of the engine, then crank it up. Try to trim up some when loading back up and when launching.


I guess I'm pretty close to this. Back roller to the water. If I'm by myself I leave it in gear while I'm hooking it up, walk back turn off the engine and then crank it in. Otherwise it will not stay on the trailer. I made that mistake the first time. 

I had a power winch on my old skiff but it took forever so I took it off. But I could see with the Chittum how it could work okay and I wouldn't have to get the hubs near the water.


----------



## sotilloa1078

Jason M said:


> I guess I'm pretty close to this. Back roller to the water. If I'm by myself I leave it in gear while I'm hooking it up, walk back turn off the engine and then crank it in. Otherwise it will not stay on the trailer. I made that mistake the first time.
> 
> I had a power winch on my old skiff but it took forever so I took it off. But I could see with the Chittum how it could work okay and I wouldn't have to get the hubs near the water.


this is my first power winch I’ve ever had and it’s a life saver. Cranking the boat all the way up at the end of the day can get old quick day after day.


----------



## jsnipes

^^^ I have a power winch on my HB but going back to a manual on new boat. It seems it's just always breaking and another thing I have to take care of. + if someone else wants to trailer the skiff they won't have the proper elec hook up on their truck so have to manual it on the power winch (which is very painful)


----------



## jsnipes

@Stevie - did that little shaw wing make much of a difference?


----------



## devrep

with a good tunnel, the right prop and a good compression plate it's hard to mount the motor too high. I drilled new higher mounting holes in my jackplate to mount it higher on the transom. I also drilled higher holes in the jack plate to mount the motor higher on the plate. and this was before I put the nosecone on. before the nosecone I could only run with it all the way up at lower rpms, now I can run wide open with it up unless I'm running thru heavy chop and popping out of the water a lot. it doesn't lose water pressure but it revs too high when the prop comes out of the water and I have to drop it a couple of inches. wave jumping is fun in this old boat. short shaft hatsu. pictures are with jackplate all the way up.


----------



## Stevie

jsnipes said:


> @Stevie - did that little shaw wing make much of a difference?


Hi John
I believe so. Had a larger one on the LM1. Would have to check why they went with the smaller version... I believe when the new owner of the LM1 repowered with Tohatsu 60, he went with the smaller version too.

Jack Foreman likes the New Water Cavitation plate


----------



## devrep

Transport plate. I had the large shaw wing on my yellow boat for a year. did nothing for it. when I took it off and sold it I could not tell a difference.


----------



## Jason M

devrep said:


> Transport plate. I had the large shaw wing on my yellow boat for a year. did nothing for it. when I took it off and sold it I could not tell a difference.


Stevie, what is that little bracket on post 458, the third picture?

I will be honest with you guys there's a lot going on with those Texas skiffs. Tunnels, Shaw wings (?), Transport plate. I guess I'm glad I can just pick a 12* and go. I will say that I would like to fish the lower LG seems like my style of sight fishing.


----------



## Stevie

Jason M said:


> Stevie, what is that little bracket on post 458, the third picture?
> 
> I will be honest with you guys there's a lot going on with those Texas skiffs. Tunnels, Shaw wings (?), Transport plate. I guess I'm glad I can just pick a 12* and go. I will say that I would like to fish the lower LG seems like my style of sight fishing.


Hi @Jason M 

The 3rd photo in post #458 shows aftermarket scoop shaped water intakes from Jack Foreman (Crossroads Propeller Service). These scoops replace the standard screens on water intakes On the lower unit and catch more water. Very helpful to shallow water performance. The photo is of a Tohatsu 50. I Blv Jack has scoops for F70s and other OBs


----------



## Stevie

commtrd said:


> When i was experiencing difficulty with overheating, i never had the jack plate close to half way up. Usually at around 2 or lower. Evidently the motor was just mounted really too high on the jack plate. Stephen saw that immediately. Never having run or even seen a Chittum tunnel until i bot mine, i didnt know exactly the right mounting height. Assuming it was set right from the shop, i didnt know what the cause was.
> 
> It's all good now. I suspect i may need to change the impeller at 6 months just for peace of mind if nothing else. One thing for sure, on a super highly tuned hull like this, small adjustments can make a really big difference. I have an oil filter coming to change engine oil post break-in. I know its fixing to get beat on down south going REAL shallow so need to take good care of it.


Hey Keith

Very glad your boat’s dialed in... and she’s beautiful...looking forward to hear about hole shot...


----------



## commtrd

Hope to go fishing with you someday! And Matt and Mac... great thread, lots of good info in here.


----------



## CKEAT

I have foreman’s pick up screens and prop on pro f70 and they both help quite a bit!


----------



## d2jlking

commtrd said:


> A few images of my new LM2. Since Stevie initiated... =)
> Such a beautiful boat. Awesome craftsmanship.


Wow! Absolutely stunning


----------



## devrep

what makes range rovers different? they cost more and eat more fuel.


----------



## devrep

d2jlking said:


> Wow! Absolutely stunning


you think that contraption on the bow looks good? I guess fly fisherman of the past were just wasting their time without one of those things. how could they even catch a fish? sweet jesus.


----------



## loganlogan

Are they?


----------



## Matts

devrep said:


> you think that contraption on the bow looks good? I guess fly fisherman of the past were just wasting their time without one of those things. how could they even catch a fish? sweet jesus.


The big draw regarding the Chittum LM is weight, poling draft and quietness, which I firmly believe translates into more caught fish. Chittum got it right as to what we need in TX. I’ve never fished out of one of the Spider casting platforms but have stood in one and it has some advantages on a windy day. If I was a guide, I would really like one for my older clients. I fish just a standard platform and do you prefer not to have the stripping cage in my way for strip strikes. That being said, I hear the Florida Tarpon fisherman love the cage. I drive an old Toyota and have no interest in ever owning a Range Rover 😴. My skiff is a no-frills fishing machine and I can’t think of any other skiff I would rather own.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

devrep said:


> you think that contraption on the bow looks good? I guess fly fisherman of the past were just wasting their time without one of those things. how could they even catch a fish? sweet jesus.


Keith liked it so much he bought it. Did he contact you to ask your opinion before doing so? I don’t even know why you made that shitty post to begin with.


----------



## d2jlking

devrep said:


> you think that contraption on the bow looks good? I guess fly fisherman of the past were just wasting their time without one of those things. how could they even catch a fish? sweet jesus.


I think the entire skiff and setup looks GREAT. Nobody said anything about fly fishermen of the past. It's a great looking skiff.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

That platform is removeable and he also had a regular platform for less windy days. Keith does not visit the forum any more so I will answer for him. He fishes the lower laguna madre a lot and if you have fished there it is usually blowing 20mph on a daily basis. That spider platform helps catch the fly line instead of it blowing off the deck or wrestling a bucket. He chose the basket as an option, it’s nothing new really so I’m not sure why devrep made his post seem like this spider is the only option for a Chittum casting platform and it’s the dumbest thing he has ever seen. I believe a few other people on this forum fabricate and sell these as well.


----------



## d2jlking

Smackdaddy53 said:


> That platform is removeable and he also had a regular platform for less windy days. Keith does not visit the forum any more so I will answer for him. He fishes the lower laguna madre a lot and if you have fished there it is usually blowing 20mph on a daily basis. That spider platform helps catch the fly line instead of it blowing off the deck or wrestling a bucket. He chose the basket as an option, it’s nothing new really so I’m not sure why devrep made his post seem like this spider is the only option for a Chittum casting platform and it’s the dumbest thing he has ever seen. I believe a few other people on this forum fabricate and sell these as well.


I fish the LLM as well. I fished with Stephen Ford one day, and he had the SPIDER on. It was different, but I can certainly see situations where it would be very helpful. I didn't order it as an option on my LMII, but I'm not ruling it out as a future add on.


----------



## Jason M

I think the spider cage was initially designed for bouncy ocean side tarpon fishing and if you have older clients you can fish more days with it. 

I don't have it and I'm not a captain but if it allowed me to fish more days I would have it. Second there are plenty of people fishing out of other skiffs that have it.

Always keep your mind open to advances otherwise we'd all still be fishing fiberglass and shitty hooks and lines.


----------



## TheFrequentFlier

JC Designs said:


> Yes, yes... please do.
> 
> Well, I’ll go ahead and name a few that are above and beyond the coast guard standards for flotation foam...
> 
> Carolina skiff J series, Sundance skiff, Boston whaler, and old sears hull I had when I was a kid, pro lines... shall we continue?
> 
> Donzi, sunbird, ranger, triton, stratos...
> 😎


A 40' boston whaler feels like most other manufacturer's 24'. Tons of wasted space for this exact reason


----------



## TheFrequentFlier

jsnipes said:


> the ride is much better to be experienced than to try and describe.
> 
> my best attempt is that with the chittum (12 degreee) i have experienced you are able to "ride on top" of the waves instead of going "through them". So, ordinarily when you have a ~15mph wind you typically would back off the throttle some to make the ride more comfortable. My experience with the chittum was if you get going > 30mph you actually get on top of the chop and it's a smoother ride than going 25mph.
> 
> and in other boats (my hells bay being one of them) as you get faster just feels like you are banging into the waves harder vs. getting on top. just my inelegant 2c


There's a sweet spot in my HB Pro where you get atop some significant chop doing about 28-30 mph, and it really pierces through the worst of it. I've literally passed much larger center consoles because they don't know how to drive their boat in the given conditions. That said, this wasn't something that I could do the first day out on the water with the 17.8. It took experience, and after a while you knew its capes and limitations.


----------



## TheFrequentFlier

commtrd said:


> Lighter construction can absolutely equate to much stronger structural integrity. Reference modern aircraft with high-tech composite radar-evasive skins, racing sailboats, modern automobiles employing much lighter bodies that contribute to greater fuel efficiencies. And of course Chittums with their vastly improved resin / carbon ratios which does indeed yield much greater strength per weight, which is evident and has been so for some time. Other boat builders also employ the vacuum infusion methodology as well, so not just Chittum obviously.
> 
> Finally, what is so funny about experiencing extremely favorable traits like riding in / performing like a highly tuned, finely engineered, well-optimized composite hull formulated of carbon fiber? Because I can promise that in all my 40+ years of owning and running boats, that I have NEVER experienced anything even remotely like this Chittum hull. Trolls always do what trolls will. There is no further argument to be made here. Disregard technological advancement as desired. I don't care what you think. Buy what you want.


Also, less weight = less stress = less fatigue over the long term


----------



## TheFrequentFlier

finbully said:


> A ton of discussion on here. A mix of good and fake information I suspect. A big reason I choose the skiffs I've bought (that helped tipped "the scales") are trim tab placement. I prefer recessed trim tabs. Why? A couple of reasons:
> 
> 1) less things extending from the stern to get fishing line zipped off on
> 2) hydrodynamically speaking, recess trim tabs deflect a lot of the water they displace to the bottom of the hull instead of to open water
> What is this benefit? More lifting power at the same tab angle as opposed to trim tabs that extend beyond the transom. The added water pressure recessed trim tabs provide are effectively a free energy lifting device. Water does not compress, so that is why this benefit physically exists. From an engineering standpoint it is similar to an aircraft traveling close to water surface creating a pressure wave that helps keep the aircraft aloft at slower speeds than in normal flight. Remember Captain Scully's commercial airliner ditching on the Hudson River? This pressure wave is what he used to save many lives. It would be good to hear why this is not incorporated into such a revolutionary design and build technique this thread is originally about.


Not sure your physics is entirely solid. Assuming a CG is around the area of the console of a small 18' skiff, the further aft the tabs are, the larger the moment arm. For a given size, the smaller the tabs will have to be the further away from the CG they are (neglecting lift and other effects they might have). In theory, the closer you get toward the CG of a skiff (i.e. the recessed trim tabs you speak of) the less of a bow up or down moment they have for a given surface area.


----------



## Matts

d2jlking said:


> I fish the LLM as well. I fished with Stephen Ford one day, and he had the SPIDER on. It was different, but I can certainly see situations where it would be very helpful. I didn't order it as an option on my LMII, but I'm not ruling it out as a future add on.


I just picked up my large casting platform from Stephen a few months ago. The reason I bought a large is that you can simply add the cage when you want. If I chased Tarpon or jacks more, would have bought the cage.


----------



## devrep

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Keith liked it so much he bought it. Did he contact you to ask your opinion before doing so? I don’t even know why you made that shitty post to begin with.


says the pot calling the kettle black.. pretty funny.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

devrep said:


> says the pot calling the kettle black.. pretty funny.


People contact me all the time to talk about boats, I’m not sure what you are alluding to. How about we squash this bullshit now?


----------



## devrep

roger.


----------



## Mike Haydon

texasag07 said:


> Cool to see the build pics and the info. Thanks for posting. A little less scoring in the core on some of these builds looks like a good idea to save a little weight. Is the core in the deck mold scored at all or is it just flat pieces glued to the skin due to the crowned shape of the deck mold?
> 
> Are they using epoxy on all builds infusion or are the 10 percent builds built using VE? Not that it matters from a material weight as a gallon of VE and gallon of epoxy are near the same weight.
> 
> Aside from the use of CSM used in VE or poly layups which would add some more weight depending on the glass layup choices chittum uses for epoxy infusion. From my amateur glass projects using csm, biax, and 10 and 24 oz woven mat the csm combined with a woven mat yields a really strong product. Yes the csm uptake of resin is greater but subsequent layers especially when speaking of 10 oz absorb most of their resin from the csm layer when applied on top of the csm with some additional resin being added to ensure a good wet out. Also if shooting for a desired glass thickness it’s isn’t hard to calculate how much resin it will take to wet out multiple layers of glass based on manufacture data.
> 
> I priced them in my shopping when looking at a new build and sadly I haven’t been able to get out on one. They are also about 15 grand higher than the other skiff I was looking at with similar options. If I really needed to push the draft limitations of a 12 degree skiff on the pole then they would have ranked higher. For where I fish the most the difference in an inch or so in draft I couldn’t justify the cost. If I fished the keys more and chasing bones and such often I could definitely see the appeal. As with all skiff companies you never hear the truth about a brand till someone has sold them ( especially the guides with pro deals). In my opinion it makes it much easier to swallow larger upfront cost for performance if the skiff is your office rather than your weekend hobby.
> 
> I understand layup and design has a lot to do with draft. I fish a lot from a one off skiff that is 15 ish feet and 3-4’ wide beam at greatest. It’s all cored and has one layer of 1708 Inside and out of The Whole skiff. With a 20 hp tohatsu it will float with two 200 lb guys, no battery and fly gear in a legitimate 4” it’s the shallowest craft I have been on.
> 
> I love seeing all skiff build pics and info so much to learn and things to add on to your magical list of the perfect skiff.


Please show me some pics if this one off skiff. And details, where was it built and by who. Please sir. I am like you and really enjoy seeing the custom builds. Thanks, Michael


----------



## GitFishin

commtrd said:


> Dont know what a 12* hull weighs per specific construction. My LM 2 hull @ 18' and 2* tunnel weighs 350. I had to get BMT weighed for title application in TX, the gross weight came in at 1074 and i had 5 gals non-ethanol fuel in the tank. My hull is the full carbon build, the trailer is a galvanized steel Ramlin, outboard is a Tohatsu 60 short shaft. No troll motor, no power pole, with poling platform and spider basket / casting platform. 1 battery. I think this would be the absolute lightest build possible to buy from Chittum AFAIK.


I think the 21 full carbon is 750 lbs. Don't believe there's another 21 within 500 lbs of that.


----------



## LowHydrogen

Skiffs are a lot like women. They're priced based on visual appeal, performance, and most importantly, weight...


----------



## Smackdaddy53

I have a 21 and an 18 in my shop right now getting some lovin’. My Maverick is under the carport getting jealous.


----------



## jonterr

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I have a 21 and an 18 in my shop right now getting some lovin’. My Maverick is under the carport getting jealous.


Pics?


----------



## Smackdaddy53

jonterr said:


> Pics?


$5 for one of each skiff, $10 for both, $20 for one of me posing on one...


----------



## ifsteve

TheFrequentFlier said:


> Also, less weight = less stress = less fatigue over the long term


This is factually incorrect. Sure less weight is typically a good thing. But its also not an absolute. As materials get stronger per a given weight you can make lighter boats. But there is also a point where you can make a lighter weight boat that will NOT stand up to those stresses over time. THAT is a fact. I am not saying any boat builder has done that. But just because a boat weighs less than some other boat does not mean it will hold up better.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

ifsteve said:


> This is factually incorrect. Sure less weight is typically a good thing. But its also not an absolute. As materials get stronger per a given weight you can make lighter boats. But there is also a point where you can make a lighter weight boat that will NOT stand up to those stresses over time. THAT is a fact. I am not saying any boat builder has done that. But just because a boat weighs less than some other boat does not mean it will hold up better.


Have you run a Chittum yet?


----------



## TheFrequentFlier

ifsteve said:


> This is factually incorrect. Sure less weight is typically a good thing. But its also not an absolute. As materials get stronger per a given weight you can make lighter boats. But there is also a point where you can make a lighter weight boat that will NOT stand up to those stresses over time. THAT is a fact. I am not saying any boat builder has done that. But just because a boat weighs less than some other boat does not mean it will hold up better.


@ifsteve it’s actually a correct statement, but obviously there are no absolutes, and yes you can find situations where perhaps the opposite is true. Seems like you’re just arguing to argue at this point. Not really sure what you’re trying to gain. Saying my statement is incorrect is just wrong, and goes against structures/engineering principles anyway. This is precisely why a foundation for a home doesn’t work for a skyscraper or why aircraft manufacturers are using carbon fiber to reduce weight/stress on components over the life of the airframe. Many of the principles work for high end boats as well, although you’re right, not in every case. 

My point is that generally one of the upsides with using super light super strong structures is the structure doesn’t have to carry as much of its own load, which means less stress/fatigue over the life of the object.

you should learn to play nicer with others, it more fun that way.


----------



## CKEAT

This is why, as a general rule, huge people don’t live as long. Gravity is a bitch.


----------



## ifsteve

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Have you run a Chittum yet?


No and not sure what that has to do with my comment.



TheFrequentFlier said:


> @ifsteve it’s actually a correct statement, but obviously there are no absolutes, and yes you can find situations where perhaps the opposite is true. Seems like you’re just arguing to argue at this point. Not really sure what you’re trying to gain. Saying my statement is incorrect is just wrong, and goes against structures/engineering principles anyway. This is precisely why a foundation for a home doesn’t work for a skyscraper or why aircraft manufacturers are using carbon fiber to reduce weight/stress on components over the life of the airframe. Many of the principles work for high end boats as well, although you’re right, not in every case.
> 
> My point is that generally one of the upsides with using super light super strong structures is the structure doesn’t have to carry as much of its own load, which means less stress/fatigue over the life of the object.
> 
> you should learn to play nicer with others, it more fun that way.


Just because a material can be used for a boat that makes said boat lighter does not mean that the resultant product is going to last longer or not suffer stress or fatigue over the life of the boat. Materials don't work that way. The right materials work that way. And knowing which materials are right takes a lot of research, development, and testing. I have no idea to what length any boat builder, including Chittum, has done in this area. I am merely pointing out that just because X is lighter than Y doesn't mean X is better.

Now I apologize if my comment came off as not being nice. Just being an engineer.


----------



## GitFishin

TheFrequentFlier said:


> @ifsteve it’s actually a correct statement, but obviously there are no absolutes, and yes you can find situations where perhaps the opposite is true. Seems like you’re just arguing to argue at this point. Not really sure what you’re trying to gain. Saying my statement is incorrect is just wrong, and goes against structures/engineering principles anyway. This is precisely why a foundation for a home doesn’t work for a skyscraper or why aircraft manufacturers are using carbon fiber to reduce weight/stress on components over the life of the airframe. Many of the principles work for high end boats as well, although you’re right, not in every case.
> 
> My point is that generally one of the upsides with using super light super strong structures is the structure doesn’t have to carry as much of its own load, which means less stress/fatigue over the life of the object.
> 
> you should learn to play nicer with others, it more fun that way.


I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as the rest of you but common sense says less weight=less stress. Certainly true in people. Losing weight is one of the best ways to reduce orthopedic problems. If a boat is lighter it stresses structure less. @ifsteve is right in an academic sense but weight doesn't equal strength and I don't know anywhere in the boating world I've seen that better illustrated than with Chittum. It really is amazing to ride in a 100% carbon boat. Your brain says something this light should feel flimsier but in fact it feels even more solid than the heaviest of fiberglass boats. Ultra light, but solid.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

ifsteve said:


> No and not sure what that has to do with my comment.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because a material can be used for a boat that makes said boat lighter does not mean that the resultant product is going to last longer or not suffer stress or fatigue over the life of the boat. Materials don't work that way. The right materials work that way. And knowing which materials are right takes a lot of research, development, and testing. I have no idea to what length any boat builder, including Chittum, has done in this area. I am merely pointing out that just because X is lighter than Y doesn't mean X is better.
> 
> Now I apologize if my comment came off as not being nice. Just being an engineer.


Real world vs theory. I have been in the oil field twelve years and witnessed first hand screw ups engineers made because on paper or a computer screen it seems legitimate but in the real world it is just silly. Lighter material that is stronger...how do you go wrong? There is a lot of research and testing that goes into it and that’s what it takes...boats on the water made with those materials and building methods. 
Not saying you are a screw up but go ride in a Chittum across bay chop and see for your self.


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## ifsteve

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Real world vs theory. I have been in the oil field twelve years and witnessed first hand screw ups engineers made because on paper or a computer screen it seems legitimate but in the real world it is just silly. Lighter material that is stronger...how do you go wrong? There is a lot of research and testing that goes into it and that’s what it takes...boats on the water made with those materials and building methods.
> Not saying you are a screw up but go ride in a Chittum across bay chop and see for your self.


I have zero idea what your complaint is with what I posted? You said "there is a lot of research and testing......" Which is what I said dang near verbatim.

As for riding in a Chittum. I'd love to go fishing on a Chittum. Just like I'd love to go fishing on just about any skiff. A day on the water ....and all that.


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## Smackdaddy53

ifsteve said:


> I have zero idea what your complaint is with what I posted? You said "there is a lot of research and testing......" Which is what I said dang near verbatim.
> 
> As for riding in a Chittum. I'd love to go fishing on a Chittum. Just like I'd love to go fishing on just about any skiff. A day on the water ....and all that.


Was I complaining?


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## Jason M

Smackdaddy53 said:


> $5 for one of each skiff, $10 for both, $20 for one of me posing on one...


If you do that you will really make the Mav jealous.


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## Jason M

I can tell you one thing for sure there's way less stress on your body polling a lighter boat around. 

Ask any of those guides that run a Chittum how much better they feel.


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## Bruce J

Limey and I once fished with the designer of super high end multi-hull racing sailboats, like they use in the America’s Cup now. He said the design goal of these boats is to be right at the point where they are so light that they are just one hair short of exploding at any moment from the stress of racing. And if a few of the boats don’t blow up in the design process, it wasn’t close enough.


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## ifsteve

Bruce J said:


> Limey and I once fished with the designer of super high end multi-hull racing sailboats, like they use in the America’s Cup now. He said the design goal of these boats is to be right at the point where they are so light that they are just one hair short of exploding at any moment from the stress of racing. And if a few of the boats don’t blow up in the design process, it wasn’t close enough.


I don't want a boat that is that close to blowing up.


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## GitFishin

I see a lot of people that seem to think you lose strength as you lose weight. I can agree with that if we're talking about reducing the amount of something in the build that provides structural support. However, when the primary decrease comes from a swap in materials, i.e. carbon builds, I understand how the weight dropped but the question becomes is carbon just as strong or stronger. It's definitely more expensive. From riding in a100% carbon boat it sure seemed stout, to the point of stiffness. I'm a layman on the engineering but carbon builds look to me like they result in greater strength at lower weight and higher cost.


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## Smackdaddy53

Jason M said:


> I can tell you one thing for sure there's way less stress on your body polling a lighter boat around.
> 
> Ask any of those guides that run a Chittum how much better they feel.


I can pole the 18 with one hand and the 21 is as easy to pole than my HPX-T.


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## TheFrequentFlier

They don't build fighter jets and passenger airliners out of steel and concrete....just saying... different materials have different properties and types of strength (tension, torsion, compression, etc). Chittum isn't making America's cup sailboats, he's making skiffs that are designed to be light, strong, agile and durable. While some of the principles are likely the same, no, they aren't going to blow up. Yeah it's more expensive to build a boat the same strength at half the weight.


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## Smackdaddy53

TheFrequentFlier said:


> They don't build fighter jets and passenger airliners out of steel and concrete....just saying... different materials have different properties and types of strength (tension, torsion, compression, etc). Chittum isn't making America's cup sailboats, he's making skiffs that are designed to be light, strong, agile and durable. While some of the principles are likely the same, no, they aren't going to blow up. Yeah it's more expensive to build a boat the same strength at half the weight.


Haha THEY’RE ALL ON THE VERGE OF EXPLODING!!! That will be the next false internet myth that spreads like wild fire. Not that Bruce’s reference is not factual but CF skiffs are not built that way.


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## CKEAT

I can assure you if Dustin Huffs rigged with a 225 hasn’t exploded it’s not likely they will and I know at least four guys that are extremely careless and hard on their Chittums and all is good.


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## Tx_Whipray

Smackdaddy53 said:


> $5 for one of each skiff, $10 for both, $20 for one of me posing on one...


Fine, but only if you show the lower unit.


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## Smackdaddy53

Tx_Whipray said:


> Fine, but only if you show the lower unit.


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## GitFishin

Yall think the other guys are stupid, hold my beer and I'll give you my thoughts. I like Chittum because Hal used to be a guide and has lots of time on the water, he was a founder of my favorite skiff company and has a desire to apply his years of experience to some new concepts. I've toured his facility and I like a lot of the detailed design that has gone into what they're doing. I like his toe kick console, radiused transom, the towing bridle/anchor management receivers, the deck to wet surface proportions, the way he's distributed weight, etc. I'm pricing a 21 without a poling or casting platform, with dual power poles, a power pole charge and a 36v tm with lithium batteries. I have no intention of poling. You probably think I'm crazy and I'll give you that. What I want is a 21 that will take me into 8" water or out to the barrier islands 10 miles south in a 3' chop with a relatively decent ride. On calm days I'll go 20 miles out for cobia. Since i fish by myself a lot I also want a light boat that's easy to handle on the trailer or if i have to push it off a bar. I see Chittums as having a smaller "radar signature" than any other 21 due to the smaller wet surface, far lighter weight and hull design. I've seen how he reduces weight while maintaining strength and its expensive but it makes sense to me. Some of what makes Chittums different is that some of the same things might be available from others but not all in one model. They're pricey but they're the total package.


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## Bruce J

Just to clarify, I didn’t mean to imply at all that I thought Chittums would explode. I’ve been on several and think they’re great boats. Just making a general point that whenever pushing the edge of the design envelope for anything, there are compromises in some elements. For multi-hull racing sailboats, at least some are willing to risk explosion at 40kts to win big races.

For microskiff owners, I don’t think any of us are so tolerant of failure. But we’ve seen it in other boats, particularly guys strapping 400+ HP on flats boats so they can go 80mph.


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## Smackdaddy53

Bruce J said:


> Just to clarify, I didn’t mean to imply at all that I thought Chittums would explode. I’ve been on several and think they’re great boats. Just making a general point that whenever pushing the edge of the design envelope for anything, there are compromises in some elements. For multi-hull racing sailboats, at least some are willing to risk explosion at 40kts to win big races.
> 
> For microskiff owners, I don’t think any of us are so tolerant of failure. But we’ve seen it in other boats, particularly guys strapping 400+ HP on flats boats so they can go 80mph.


I knew you weren’t implying that but some may not understand.


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## sydngoose

Skiffs today are highly engineered to the chemical/ molecular level. These aren't your plywood back yard skiffs anymore... guess why they are $70K and up. Quality craftsmanship for sure.


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## Rich11111

sydngoose said:


> Skiffs today are highly engineered to the chemical/ molecular level. These aren't your plywood back yard skiffs anymore... guess why they are $70K and up. Quality craftsmanship for sure.


I think the $70K is pre pandemic and pre inflation price! But you are right the fit, finish and materials are top of the line.


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## War Bird

As stated. Built by someone with experience. They use top of the line materials and don't cut corners


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## ifsteve

War Bird said:


> As stated. Built by someone with experience. They use top of the line materials and don't cut corners


Which applies to numerous skiff builders.


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## Matts

Rich11111 said:


> I think the $70K is pre pandemic and pre inflation price! But you are right the fit, finish and materials are top of the line.


Nah. Chittums were 70+ pre pandemic but they are truly the most cutting edge skiff made. They fish well.


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## Megalops

Dear Hal -

Lets do the raffle ticket thing. Been waiting 12 years.

Love,

@Megalops


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## Smackdaddy53

Matts said:


> Nah. Chittums were 70+ pre pandemic but they are truly the most cutting edge skiff made. They fish well.


Rich has one. Yours will be truly cutting edge in a couple of weeks...


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## Rich11111

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Rich has one. Yours will be truly cutting edge in a couple of weeks...


Sounds like low water pick up happening in a couple weeks...


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## birdyshooter

It’s the same as it ever was guys. Fish what you can afford and be happy.


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## Matts

Rich11111 said:


> Sounds like low water pick up happening in a couple weeks...


I’m on Smacks list for a low water. Engine mount is high enough to eventually run out of water even with Jack Foreman scoops and Shaw Wing.


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