# Loop Knots



## Backwater

We were having a conversation on a particular loop knot on one of the flies that was posted in the "Whats your 3 Best Flies!" thread. So instead of clogging up the thread and going into an off-topic tangent from the subject, I thought I'd put my reply on a different post. You can refer to the thread to see where the question started.



permitchaser said:


> 1. Super Toad Tarpon fly. Yarn body, rubber band legs, rabbit and marabou tail





coconutgroves said:


> @permitchaser what knot is that on the toad fly? Can't tie a knot, tie a lot?





Backwater said:


> coconutgroves, that looks like a Lefty Krey knot.





permitchaser said:


> Backwater your right, as usual, I got the knot out of Lefty's 1986 book Fly Fishing In Saltwater. It may also be called an Arbor Knot





jonrconner said:


> Lefty's loop knot and the arbor knot are totally different animals, the knot described sounds like an arbor knot, and in the heavy bite tippet knot strength isn't important, conversely the loop knot aproaches 100% strength if properly tied according to Lefty's instructions.
> JC


Jon, I've tied a ton of these knots. You'll notice that the tag end in this pic points to the hook and is a loop knot.


permitchaser said:


>


Also Jon, with an Arbor knot, the tag end points away from the hook and is a jam knot that is cinched down to the hook.

At the hook, I always like loop knot that the tag end points towards the hook to avoid it catching weeds and slime type vegetation. About 6 or 7 years before that, I use to use another knot that the tag would stick straight out to the side, and thereby catch things, It also pulled a few times. So I wasn't crazy about that knot. So about 20yrs ago, I ran across the Lefty Krey knot. Lefty didn't actually come up with this knot. It was called a "Non-Slip Knot" and Lefty always referred to it and claimed it was his favorite knot to use, especially in saltwater. So it was referred to as the "Lefty Krey Knot." I personally heard him tell that story about it back in the 90's

Here is a video I just found to illustrate it for those who are knot familiar with it. (pun intended!  )







To fully and completely understand the Lefty Krey knot or what was normally referred to as the "Non-Slip Knot", especially as it pertains to fly fishing, watch this video.






Here is my experience with it. With multiple turns with the the tag around the running line before entering the tag back thru the hole, the knot seemed to be bulky, especially with 80lb bite fluoro leader material. So I had a client from Africa come fishing with me once that was down in Costa Rica fishing for tarpon down there. So a native guide showed him a loop knot that was way simpler to tie and claimed that it could be taken back apart (untied) and retied and it held. It almost looked like a perfection knot or bowline knot when finished. Simply make a half hitch loop, like to start with a non-slip knot. Go thru the eye of the hook and come thru the hole (or half hitch loop) on the other side of the hole (upward side). Have the tag come around the running line once and go thru the opposite side of the hole going back thru. Cinch down. It holds, really holds and you can work it back loose, take the tag back out of the hole, take that fly off, change the fly, put the tag back in the hole and re-cinch it down. I didn't like that it only wrapped once and didn't have confidence in it, but the guy swore by it.

So that all gave me an idea. I would take a Non-Slip knot, where Lefty throws a min of 3 turns in the tag end, I would reduce it to 2 turns (thereby reducing knot size and keeping it a simpler knot). So after a run one summer of about 20 big poons and about 100 snook on the fly (and whatever else) back then, that was test enough to make it my go-to loop knot! A buddy later dubbed it as the "Haas Knot!" It's still is a non-slip knot, but simple to tie. I've proven it over and over for 20yrs that it holds and to date, have never broke or pulled it apart. So from about 20lb fluoro northward, I use only 2 turns around the running line. It holds and that's all is needed. I've tested it down to 8lb tippet and it still works, but for anything south of 15-16lb tippet, I throw in a 3rd turns for added insurance, which can be considered a non-slip or Lefty Krey knot again. But with that size, both of those knots will have 4-6 turns in them. I've found at that point, that they are not necessary. So we still call it the Haas knot. 

Note, in recent years, for 60-80lb fluorocarbon bite leaders sporting loop knots, especially for tarpon, I've gone to a Steve Huff double figure eight knot, since it tracks the fly extremely straight, which can be very important for fly behavior with thick leader material for tarpon. I haven't found that to be as important to other species. The thing I don't like is the tag sticks straight out and can catch stuff on it, tho with this knot, then tag is aligned and next to the running line. So it hangs up less. So if I'm fishing clear beach water will little to not grass or seaweed, then I will use this knot. Else, I'll go back to the Haas knot for grass flats, back country or night fishing.











Sorry to get off-topic, but it's a good point to catch! 

Btw, in the Non-Slip video, that is about as perfect of a clouser as you can get (for non-gin clear water), except I like it with chartreuse and white and a little silver or gold flash.


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## yobata

I use a figure 8 follow through knot. It is used by rock climbers. It is a little bulky and the tag end faces away from the hook, but I still like it and it does not fail.


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## yobata

Here is a video that shows the figure 8 follow through. I stop at the 1:51 mark and do not add the additional barrel knot that they show in the video...


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## Danny Moody

I have been using the (what I refer to as) "MirroLure knot" for years. Since I do much of my fishing at night and re-tie often, I find this knot perfect for quick ties that can be done without looking at process. It's simple and it works.


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## Backwater

Danny Moody said:


>


Yes no question, that knot is quick and easy. I've use it long ago had them pull a few times on conventional rods you can put more pressure on the rod. But again, they do work. I also use the one where you tie another half hitch, instead of just putting the tag back under like a mirrorlure knot. I can't remember what it was called but used it for about 6yrs. That one also had knot pull thru. But the mirrorlure knot you shown above was as simple as that Costa Rico knot where the tag can be pushed back thru and re-tied. So I like the added insurance of the additional wrap and also the tag facing backwards towards the hook keeps it from being buggered up catching grass and slime. But that's just my preference. It's a little harder to tie, but still kinda of simple and I can tie it in the dark as well.


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## Finn Maccumhail

I use the Homer Rhode for pretty much everything. Never noticed the kink mentioned in the Saltwater Experience video.


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## Backwater

yobata said:


> Here is a video that shows the figure 8 follow through. I stop at the 1:51 mark and do not add the additional barrel knot that they show in the video...


Kinda complicated and the two doesn't chinch down together, leaving 2 separate knots. The last knot in that "fishermen's knot" at the end of your video, makes an additional figure 8 knot. If you look at the Steve Huff knot demonstration in the above video, you'll see that it's a simpler knot than the one in your video and the double figure eights jam together to form one knot.


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## floridascuba

I will have to see the videos at home, since they are blocked at work. But I tie an overhand knot than something similar to the improved clinch knot to cinch it down to the over hand knot. Never had the knot fail me yet. Even caught a sword fish on it.

Backwater,
The knot with 2 overhand knots is called the canoe man knot I believe. Or at least that's what Blair Wiggins called it. I don't like it. Had it fail on me.


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## permitchaser

These are great knots and I have used them all on light line. But on 80-100 lb bite you can only use a few. Homer Rhode , Huff figure 8


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## Blue Zone

Backwater said:


> We were having a conversation on a particular loop knot on one of the flies that was posted in the "Whats your 3 Best Flies!" thread. So instead of clogging up the thread and going into an off-topic tangent from the subject, I thought I'd put my reply on a different post. You can refer to the thread to see where the question started.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jon, I've tied a ton of these knots. You'll notice that the tag end in this pic points to the hook and is a loop knot.
> 
> Also Jon, with an Arbor knot, the tag end points away from the hook and is a jam knot that is cinched down to the hook.
> 
> At the hook, I always like loop knot that the tag end points towards the hook to avoid it catching weeds and slime type vegetation. About 6 or 7 years before that, I use to use another knot that the tag would stick straight out to the side, and thereby catch things, It also pulled a few times. So I wasn't crazy about that knot. So about 20yrs ago, I ran across the Lefty Krey knot. Lefty didn't actually come up with this knot. It was called a "Non-Slip Knot" and Lefty always referred to it and claimed it was his favorite knot to use, especially in saltwater. So it was referred to as the "Lefty Krey Knot." I personally heard him tell that story about it back in the 90's
> 
> Here is a video I just found to illustrate it for those who are knot familiar with it. (pun intended!  )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To fully and completely understand the Lefty Krey knot or what was normally referred to as the "Non-Slip Knot", especially as it pertains to fly fishing, watch this video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my experience with it. With multiple turns with the the tag around the running line before entering the tag back thru the hole, the knot seemed to be bulky, especially with 80lb bite fluoro leader material. So I had a client from Africa come fishing with me once that was down in Costa Rica fishing for tarpon down there. So a native guide showed him a loop knot that was way simpler to tie and claimed that it could be taken back apart (untied) and retied and it held. It almost looked like a perfection knot or bowline knot when finished. Simply make a half hitch loop, like to start with a non-slip knot. Go thru the eye of the hook and come thru the hole (or half hitch loop) on the other side of the hole (upward side). Have the tag come around the running line once and go thru the opposite side of the hole going back thru. Cinch down. It holds, really holds and you can work it back loose, take the tag back out of the hole, take that fly off, change the fly, put the tag back in the hole and re-cinch it down. I didn't like that it only wrapped once and didn't have confidence in it, but the guy swore by it.
> 
> So that all gave me an idea. I would take a Non-Slip knot, where Lefty throws a min of 3 turns in the tag end, I would reduce it to 2 turns (thereby reducing knot size and keeping it a simpler knot). So after a run one summer of about 20 big poons and about 100 snook on the fly (and whatever else) back then, that was test enough to make it my go-to loop knot! A buddy later dubbed it as the "Haas Knot!" It's still is a non-slip knot, but simple to tie. I've proven it over and over for 20yrs that it holds and to date, have never broke or pulled it apart. So from about 20lb fluoro northward, I use only 2 turns around the running line. It holds and that's all is needed. I've tested it down to 8lb tippet and it still works, but for anything south of 15-16lb tippet, I throw in a 3rd turns for added insurance, which can be considered a non-slip or Lefty Krey knot again. But with that size, both of those knots will have 4-6 turns in them. I've found at that point, that they are not necessary. So we still call it the Haas knot.
> 
> Note, in recent years, for 60-80lb fluorocarbon bite leaders sporting loop knots, especially for tarpon, I've gone to a Steve Huff double figure eight knot, since it tracks the fly extremely straight, which can be very important for fly behavior with thick leader material for tarpon. I haven't found that to be as important to other species. The thing I don't like is the tag sticks straight out and can catch stuff on it, tho with this knot, then tag is aligned and next to the running line. So it hangs up less. So if I'm fishing clear beach water will little to not grass or seaweed, then I will use this knot. Else, I'll go back to the Haas knot for grass flats, back country or night fishing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to get off-topic, but it's a good point to catch!
> 
> Btw, in the Non-Slip video, that is about as perfect of a clouser as you can get (for non-gin clear water), except I like it with chartreuse and white and a little silver or gold flash.


Funny you mention bowline. I use that for dolphin and tuna. Quick fly changes are needed not because they are particular about what they eat, but they make a mess out of flies in a hurry. I have always wished the made bigger hook eyes for the pelagics; you could double over a loop in the shock without including the hook eye, run the doubled over loop through the eye and around the whole fly to attach. Of course this negates the ability for the fly to track freely. Change-outs would take seconds...


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## Backwater

floridascuba said:


> I will have to see the videos at home, since they are blocked at work. But I tie an overhand knot than something similar to the improved clinch knot to cinch it down to the over hand knot. Never had the knot fail me yet. Even caught a sword fish on it.
> 
> Backwater,
> The knot with 2 overhand knots is called the canoe man knot I believe. Or at least that's what Blair Wiggins called it. I don't like it. Had it fail on me.


The *Canoe Man* was Capt Mel Berman's best friend and lived over here in the Tampa Bay area. Capt Mel had a radio talk show for years here in the area. He had an impressive local fishing website and it still lives on after the passing of both.

www.capmel.com. There's a lot of good local fishing info on that site.

The Canoe Man didn't come up with that knot, as Blair Wiggins (from the east coast) refers to it as. It was just "dubbed" that name since he used it, talked it up and other people refer to it as the knot the "Canoe Man" uses (a.k. The Canoe Man Knot), just like the Lefty Krey knot is referred to. That is the loop knot I used exclusively for about 6yrs (which is the one I couldn't remember the name and refer to Danny Moody as such) until I saw the Lefty Krey knot. Basically 2 overhand or half hitch knots jammed together. Like I said earlier, I've had them pull a couple of times.

Now Steve Huff does another loop knot for smaller fish, like permit, bones, redfish and such. Not tarpon. I've never use it. But I'm sure it works good. Again, the only thing I don't like about it, for thicker leader material, is that it's a bigger knot. But not so much for light tippet only, not shock or bite leader.






Btw, I've met Steve several times but don't personally know him. But I have a huge about of respect for the guy and I still try to learn from pears like him. Steve was/is a well known, well respected Keys and Glades guide, specializing in fly fishing for tarpon, bonefish and Glades action.


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## Backwater

Blue Zone said:


> Funny you mention bowline. I use that for dolphin and tuna. Quick fly changes are needed not because they are particular about what they eat, but they make a mess out of flies in a hurry. I have always wished the made bigger hook eyes for the pelagics; you could double over a loop in the shock without including the hook eye, run the doubled over loop through the eye and around the whole fly to attach. Of course this negates the ability for the fly to track freely. Change-outs would take seconds...


Funny thing about a bowline knot. It's my favorite non-fishing loop knot, bar none. It's got to be the best hold in any rope. It's insanely too easy to tie, once you get the hang of it. Too easy and would just be too simple to use for a fishing knot. Thought it would slip to easily but thought about it. So I started trying it on leader material. BHAM! It works! Quick and easy! Tag faces back somewhat too. I just can't get myself to use or trust it for some dumb reason. But here's the real kicker about it that I figured out about 5 yrs ago, it works on braided line too! Try it out for yourself. I just don't have 100% confidence in it tho but have used it on both in a pinch to do a quick speed loop knot. Go figure! Ha! Still, I can't get myself to trust it for fishing.

And for those guys who don't know how to tie a bowline knot (pronounced "bowlean" knot), here's how to do it (normal Navy and boaters knot).





The biggest problem what I've heard is it only has a 55% knot strenght. So maybe it's ok for heavy leader material tying to hooks, but not thinner tippet materials. Again, I don't use it for fishing, but it's an amazing loop knot for ropes.


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## ifsteve

One thing that I had never thought about on loop knots that a guide buddy told me. Make sure, with whatever loop knot you use, that the resultant loop is small enough so that it can't flop around the eyes of the fly. I always tended to tie my loops small but if it came out too big I never worried about it. But his point made sense. If the loop wraps around the dumbell eyes the fly will retrieve crooked which is not good.


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## permitchaser

Can anyone tell me the knot strength of th Arbor knot. It's easy to tie and creates a loop any size. And has been used on Tarpon flies to catch Tarpon


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## Backwater

ifsteve said:


> One thing that I had never thought about on loop knots that a guide buddy told me. Make sure, with whatever loop knot you use, that the resultant loop is small enough so that it can't flop around the eyes of the fly. I always tended to tie my loops small but if it came out too big I never worried about it. But his point made sense. If the loop wraps around the dumbell eyes the fly will retrieve crooked which is not good.


Good point Steve!





permitchaser said:


> Can anyone tell me the knot strength of th Arbor knot. It's easy to tie and creates a loop any size. And has been used on Tarpon flies to catch Tarpon


If It where only 50% knot strength on 60lb bite leader, would that work for you?


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## jsnipes

Backwater said:


> Yes no question, that knot is quick and easy. I've use it long ago had them pull a few times on conventional rods you can put more pressure on the rod. But again, they do work. I also use the one where you tie another half hitch, instead of just putting the tag back under like a mirrorlure knot. I can't remember what it was called but used it for about 6yrs. That one also had knot pull thru. But the mirrorlure knot you shown above was as simple as that Costa Rico knot where the tag can be pushed back thru and re-tied. So I like the added insurance of the additional wrap and also the tag facing backwards towards the hook keeps it from being buggered up catching grass and slime. But that's just my preference. It's a little harder to tie, but still kinda of simple and I can tie it in the dark as well.


Yea, for lighter leaders < 30lbs I use this with the double half hitch that you referenced and I have never lost a fish. And yep, I can tie it with my eyes closed in about 15 seconds. If there are fish around, and I am in a hurry it's for sure my go-to. Also feel like I can control loop size perfectly with this knot.

I am actually interested in what everyone uses for their shock to tippet connection. I used to use a full huffnagle, mostly when I was making offshore leaders but it's so damn big. And I always feel nervous using an Albright (although I don't think I've ever had a problem, I tend to only use it with hard wire). Started using this 'slim beauty' one, and it seems good. Curious if anyone uses anything else
http://www.animatedknots.com/slimbeauty/#ScrollPoint


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## jsnipes

Man, used to love knots as a kid. I can't seem to find the name online, but I used to do this one painstaking knot to connect 50# or 80# directly to the swivel when we didn't use wind-ons offshore (so no double-line). It was like a beautiful 4-inch long knot that looked like the knot portion of a bimini when it was finished directly to the swivel.


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## floridascuba

jsnipes said:


> I am actually interested in what everyone uses for their shock to tippet connection. I used to use a full huffnagle, mostly when I was making offshore leaders but it's so damn big. And I always feel nervous using an Albright (although I don't think I've ever had a problem, I tend to only use it with hard wire). Started using this 'slim beauty' one, and it seems good. Curious if anyone uses anything else
> http://www.animatedknots.com/slimbeauty/#ScrollPoint


I keep it simple. I stay uni-uni


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## el9surf

I use a 2 turn version of the lefty loop knot, it has never failed me to this point, been using it for years. Very easy to control loop size when tying it and you can clip the tag so it doesn't catch on the grass. You need a pair of pliers or something to pull the hook on to cinch the knot down. As for leader material I mainly use a slim beauty for joining small diameter to larger diameter lines.


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## coconutgroves

@Backwater my original question in the other thread was a bit of a joke - that is a bulky knot to use on such heavy line and it also was not straight. But I'm glad it sparked comments to make another thread!

I use the perfection knot on flies most of the time. It takes a little time to learn, but once you have it, it is super easy and strong when done right. This is the same knot many tie on leaders to loop line connections. Some knots are better on flouro than mono, and vise versa, depending on if it is true knot, or a clinch.


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## Blue Zone

Backwater said:


> Funny thing about a bowline knot. It's my favorite non-fishing loop knot, bar none. It's got to be the best hold in any rope. It's insanely too easy to tie, once you get the hang of it. Too easy and would just be too simple to use for a fishing knot. Thought it would slip to easily but thought about it. So I started trying it on leader material. BHAM! It works! Quick and easy! Tag faces back somewhat too. I just can't get myself to use or trust it for some dumb reason. But here's the real kicker about it that I figured out about 5 yrs ago, it works on braided line too! Try it out for yourself. I just don't have 100% confidence in it tho but have used it on both in a pinch to do a quick speed loop knot. Go figure! Ha! Still, I can't get myself to trust it for fishing.
> 
> And for those guys who don't know how to tie a bowline knot (pronounced "bowlean" knot), here's how to do it (normal Navy and boaters knot).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest problem what I've heard is it only has a 55% knot strenght. So maybe it's ok for heavy leader material tying to hooks, but not thinner tippet materials. Again, I don't use it for fishing, but it's an amazing loop knot for ropes.


I have always pronounced bowline "bowlyn" accenting the bow...like bowlin' alley...

Anyway, my usual setup is 16# tippet and 30# shock; break-off always seems to occur with the tippet. So my ignorance of the 55% knot strength of the bowline accidentally worked out.

Related to the bowline, after reading a vast amount of info on here concerning line, tippets, shocks etc., a few weeks ago I bought some fluro (which I had never used before). Last night I was fooling around with some 40# fluro and tied a couple of bowlines which were very difficult to tighten down. Today it looks like they came slightly undone as you can see space in the bends of the knots. Fluro seems less supple than mono or is it just me?


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## jonrconner

Flouro is generally a little stiffer than mono, however, there's a range just like mono, some is really stiff and some is pretty supple, you may have some that's on the stiff end of the spectrum. 
JC


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## Backwater

Ok, let's see if I can respond to all of that.

jsnipes - I've use the slim beauty but I prefer the albright for several reasons. An albright is actually slimmer than the slim beauty. lol go figure... I can tie an albright in the dark. The shock tag faces down where the SB tag faces up. It's possible that the SB is a stronger knot, but I'm not sure of that. If I want more insurance over an albright, then I modify the albright (I do something different with it) or I'll use an alberto knot. Nevertheless, I've been known to tie a slim beauty in the light and if I have the time.

But for those who don't know, here is "the" vid on the Slim Beauty!






And here is the Alberto Knot.







el9surf - That is the same knot that I was mentioning I use for most of my loop knots.


coconutgroves - Yea thanks for the idea for this thread!  Yea you and all the other purist fly fishermen out there uses perfect loops!  It is a standard for the smallest loop knot you can tie. Funny thing tho, it almost looks like a bowline knot when finished, except the tag comes out perpendicular to the knot and the bowline tag towards the loop. It took be for ever to figure out how to tie it, so I started using it years ago to tie the loop in the butt section of my leader to the loop in my flyline. Problem was, after some years of using it for that on heavy materials for butt section of the leader, not only would the tag catch slime and silt, but it could catch going thru the rod guides. Most fly fishermen using this knot would clip the tag flush to the knot, but for big fish, I like the lil extra insurance of a tiny tag end (1/16 - 1/8") just in case. So I stopped using it for that and *I could never figure out how to tie ia perfection loop to the eye of the hook*,  so that was out as well.  Lol


So for the loop knot I use for that loop that connects the butt of the leader to the loop in the fly line, I've gone to the "Steve Huff" knot. Not only is it very strong, but once cinched down good and tight, you will notice 2 things. 1st - it tracks perfectly straight and true. 2nd, the tag faces towards the running line. When the loop is position in the direction towards the flyline, the tag becomes weedless! 

Same thing if I decide I want to use tippets where I loop to loop the tippet to the butt section of the leader. Case in point, with tarpon or big fish leaders and tippets. I want those tippets to have a bimini on the top side of the tippet. The Steve Huff loop knot keeps it tracking straight and points the tag to the fly, thereby making it weedless. Then I'll tie directly to the shock/bite leader. And for me, that connection is either an albright, a modified albright or an alberto knot (depending on what I think I need).

For the loop knot on the fly, it's either that 2 turn non-slip (Haas knot ) where that knot at the fly, the tag points to the fly, or for ultra clean water where I want a big fly to track perfectly straight, then it's the Steve Huff knot.

For a direct tie to the fly (no loop), then mostly I'll tie an improved clinch knot or sometimes I do a uni knot.

Bluezone - That's why I couldn't trust it for fishing. 

jon conner - Most 100% pure fluorocarbon leader materials are stiff and stiffer than mono, but not as stiff as hard mason. The fluoros found that is more supple, like what they use for fluorocarbon "fishing line" (not leader), especially like the stuff that comes in large spools (for the same price as 25yrs of leader material) to spool up a spinning or baitcaster reel with, is fluorocarbon coated mono core. The mono core keeps it supple to cast with conventional reels. Sure it's better than mono and holds knots better than 100% fluoro leader materials, but it is not as abrasive resistant (bite resistant) and doesn't disappear as well as the true blue stuff does!


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## permitchaser

Backwater said:


> Good point Steve!
> 
> I took my made up leader with Arbor knot on 80 lb bite hooked to hook to my weight bench then pulled it till the bench almost tipped over. I thought the hook was going to straighten, it was an Owner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If It where only 50% knot strength on 60lb bite leader, would that work for you?


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## Capt. Eli Whidden

I'm a big fan of the Homers Rhodes loop knot for 60lb or less. Never fails. Over 60lb(witch only applies for the nighttime and Everglades fish), a 3 turn clinch is the ticket. Both knots are super easy to tie and not bulky at all.


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## permitchaser

Ok I have re- read all the knot till my eyes are crossing. I am going to Carrabell Fl to chase tarpon in July so I am changing knots for my flies. I have decided to cut all the flies in my stretcher box off the 12" bite and put them in a fly box. Then go to a 18"-20" bite leader. I have used a blood knot to attach class tipit line to my 80 lb. bite so that's what I will contiue to do then use Lefty's Loop knot with 2 turns for the bite to fly


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## Backwater

Doing a blood knot with 80lb fluorocarbon bite leader material is not the easiest thing to do with a tippet diameter, significantly smaller, say like 20lbs. Consider a different knot for that connection, like an albright, alberto or a slim beauty. Also, by July, those fish will be hammered pretty good by then. So I would consider having your butt section of your leader with a loop connection with your tippet section. The reason I recommend this is I would start out using 60 bite leader at the end of your tippet section to at lease, get a quicker eat. If they bang a few of your flies and doing good in that dept. and the water is a bit murky, then you can quickly change it out for an 80 bite leader with the tippet. I'd also have a magnum bimini twist at the loop end of your tippet and a minimum of 2ft of tippet (not including the bite leader). Then tie the business end of your tippet, straight to your bite leader. That will give you the much needed shock absorber in your tippet (thereby reducing breakage at the boat) and the bimini is far enough from the fish's eye so he can't see it. Therefore, your total leader system will be safe but stealthy. Your tippet to bite leader knot (such as the ones above) will then be small and stealthy.

Tarpon stretchers do serve a purpose (to keep the bite leader straighten out and ready to go).. But if you are making them up on demand, it's important to have a straight bite leader material with you, since it's the hardest material you have that can be hand stretched out to remove any memory. One thing you can do to have pre-straighten bite leaders on hand, is to take your spool of 60 or 80lb fluorocarbon leader into the garage, workshop, barn or even outside. Find a secure place to tie it on one side of the garage (like an eye ring, bolt or whatever). Then unroll the spool evenly to the other side of the garage and find a place to secure it. Before completely tying it down on the other side of the garage, pull hard to stretch out any bulk memory it may have in the line. Then tie it off good. Note; try using a knot that can be untied later to re-stretch it. So 2 or 3 days later, come back in the garage, un-tie the knot, pull hard to re-stretch the line, then tie it back down. You can repeat the process several more times. I like the garage cause it get's hot and helps to work out the memory in the line. On the final day, take a thin, straight hard tube (1/4 - 1/2" I.D.) with a cap on one end that is between 18" to 24", depending on how much leader material you want to work with. Cut the stretched, straightened leader material into pieces that fit inside the tube length. When completed, you should cap the other end of the tube. Those tubes can be brought onboard with you on your trips, just in case you need to tie up another bite leader. Easy to store and makes it easy to use when needed The straighten leader will help your fly track straight and keep it from spinning as you retrieve it.

Ted Haas


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## erikb85

Not tarpon, but musky, we tie 20-30lb to a 60-80lb flouro bite tippet. My go to is a modified Albright. Do five or six turns down the shock tippet then wrap four or five back up over those wraps and go thru the eyelet you've created. When you cinch it down it locks and never moves, easy to tie.


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## permitchaser

Backwater said:


> Doing a blood knot with 80lb fluorocarbon bite leader material is not the easiest thing to do with a tippet diameter, significantly smaller, say like 20lbs. Consider a different knot for that connection, like an albright, alberto or a slim beauty. Also, by July, those fish will be hammered pretty good by then. So I would consider having your butt section of your leader with a loop connection with your tippet section. The reason I recommend this is I would start out using 60 bite leader at the end of your tippet section to at lease, get a quicker eat. If they bang a few of your flies and doing good in that dept. and the water is a bit murky, then you can quickly change it out for an 80 bite leader with the tippet. I'd also have a magnum bimini twist at the loop end of your tippet and a minimum of 2ft of tippet (not including the bite leader). Then tie the business end of your tippet, straight to your bite leader. That will give you the much needed shock absorber in your tippet (thereby reducing breakage at the boat) and the bimini is far enough from the fish's eye so he can't see it. Therefore, your total leader system will be safe but stealthy. Your tippet to bite leader knot (such as the ones above) will then be small and stealthy.
> 
> Tarpon stretchers do serve a purpose (to keep the bite leader straighten out and ready to go).. But if you are making them up on demand, it's important to have a straight bite leader material with you, since it's the hardest material you have that can be hand stretched out to remove any memory. One thing you can do to have pre-straighten bite leaders on hand, is to take your spool of 60 or 80lb fluorocarbon leader into the garage, workshop, barn or even outside. Find a secure place to tie it on one side of the garage (like an eye ring, bolt or whatever). Then unroll the spool evenly to the other side of the garage and find a place to secure it. Before completely tying it down on the other side of the garage, pull hard to stretch out any bulk memory it may have in the line. Then tie it off good. Note; try using a knot that can be untied later to re-stretch it. So 2 or 3 days later, come back in the garage, un-tie the knot, pull hard to re-stretch the line, then tie it back down. You can repeat the process several more times. I like the garage cause it get's hot and helps to work out the memory in the line. On the final day, take a thin, straight hard tube (1/4 - 1/2" I.D.) with a cap on one end that is between 18" to 24", depending on how much leader material you want to work with. Cut the stretched, straightened leader material into pieces that fit inside the tube length. When completed, you should cap the other end of the tube. Those tubes can be brought onboard with you on your trips, just in case you need to tie up another bite leader. Easy to store and makes it easy to use when needed The straighten leader will help your fly track straight and keep it from spinning as you retrieve it.
> 
> Ted Haas


Ted your the best. Thank you for your help. Yep those fish might be hammered by then and they may be hard to find or just not there. But everyone from there says to come in the hottest months for Tarpon. 

I am wondering on colors of flies. Black for murky water and light colors for clear water. I fished with Harry there once and he said to use a blue fly. We did not see any Tarpon that day so I never had a chance to see if they ate blue flies


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## Backwater

erikb85 said:


> Not tarpon, but musky, we tie 20-30lb to a 60-80lb flouro bite tippet. My go to is a modified Albright. Do five or six turns down the shock tippet then wrap four or five back up over those wraps and go thru the eyelet you've created. When you cinch it down it locks and never moves, easy to tie.


That is called an Alberto knot. You can see it in the video I posted above. Great knot and one of my favorites!


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## Backwater

permitchaser said:


> Ted your the best. Thank you for your help. Yep those fish might be hammered by then and they may be hard to find or just not there. But everyone from there says to come in the hottest months for Tarpon.
> 
> I am wondering on colors of flies. Black for murky water and light colors for clear water. I fished with Harry there once and he said to use a blue fly. We did not see any Tarpon that day so I never had a chance to see if they ate blue flies


Thanks permitchaser. Yea I can imagine you'll have fishing constantly moving in up there from where we are down here. The long journey will calm them back down and I'm sure by the time they pull into that area, they will be ready to eat.

The 1st fly I ever tied on my own you here on the Gulf coast that took a big tarpon (140lbs) had a significant about of blue in it. I've used blue before in other flies since then, but not all blue. However, at night, I've used all blue flies and they work. Funny thing while night time tarpon fishing with purple, black and blue flies, I caught some big snook on a blue tarpon fly. Yes blue! Ha!

Watch your solunar tables to plan out your trip. I do that all the time. I had plenty of chances to tarpon fish this week but the solunar tables were off and in the toilet. For example, today is Memorial day (please remember our heroes) So the solunar tables (solar and lunar) are the worst for fishing today in like 2 months. Yet, there are people out there trying to do something today. Today, I'm spending the day with my family since I know there is no chance of doing any good out there (not to mention all the boaters will be out there today as well.). Sure during those times, you can see plenty of fish but your chances of them eating will be slim. If I go out there during those times, is only to see what they are doing. But even then, they can be in one place one day and gone the next day. So I mostly stick with good solunar/bite tables, good moon phases and tides. There you will find peak bite periods where the fishing will be it's hottest. So you start to fish the peak bite times (typically 1.5 hrs to 3hrs long) and then head off the water when it's over. Everything else will almost be a waste of time. Later on this week, it will be "On" and I will be out there!


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## permitchaser

I was reading Bill Bishop's book High Rollers again. This time I wanted to see what knots he used. He said he uses a huffnagle to attach the bite to class tippet. He says he uses a double overhead knot then the wraps. Sounds more like a Slim Beauty to me. I enjoyed the book but 280 flies on stretchers arranged by color is a little anal


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## permitchaser

Backwater said:


> Ok, let's see if I can respond to all of that.
> 
> jsnipes - I've use the slim beauty but I prefer the albright for several reasons. An albright is actually slimmer than the slim beauty. lol go figure... I can tie an albright in the dark. The shock tag faces down where the SB tag faces up. It's possible that the SB is a stronger knot, but I'm not sure of that. If I want more insurance over an albright, then I modify the albright (I do something different with it) or I'll use an alberto knot. Nevertheless, I've been known to tie a slim beauty in the light and if I have the time.
> 
> But for those who don't know, here is "the" vid on the Slim Beauty!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is the Alberto Knot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> el9surf - That is the same knot that I was mentioning I use for most of my loop knots.
> 
> 
> coconutgroves - Yea thanks for the idea for this thread!  Yea you and all the other purist fly fishermen out there uses perfect loops!  It is a standard for the smallest loop knot you can tie. Funny thing tho, it almost looks like a bowline knot when finished, except the tag comes out perpendicular to the knot and the bowline tag towards the loop. It took be for ever to figure out how to tie it, so I started using it years ago to tie the loop in the butt section of my leader to the loop in my flyline. Problem was, after some years of using it for that on heavy materials for butt section of the leader, not only would the tag catch slime and silt, but it could catch going thru the rod guides. Most fly fishermen using this knot would clip the tag flush to the knot, but for big fish, I like the lil extra insurance of a tiny tag end (1/16 - 1/8") just in case. So I stopped using it for that and *I could never figure out how to tie ia perfection loop to the eye of the hook*,  so that was out as well.  Lol
> 
> 
> So for the loop knot I use for that loop that connects the butt of the leader to the loop in the fly line, I've gone to the "Steve Huff" knot. Not only is it very strong, but once cinched down good and tight, you will notice 2 things. 1st - it tracks perfectly straight and true. 2nd, the tag faces towards the running line. When the loop is position in the direction towards the flyline, the tag becomes weedless!
> 
> Same thing if I decide I want to use tippets where I loop to loop the tippet to the butt section of the leader. Case in point, with tarpon or big fish leaders and tippets. I want those tippets to have a bimini on the top side of the tippet. The Steve Huff loop knot keeps it tracking straight and points the tag to the fly, thereby making it weedless. Then I'll tie directly to the shock/bite leader. And for me, that connection is either an albright, a modified albright or an alberto knot (depending on what I think I need).
> 
> For the loop knot on the fly, it's either that 2 turn non-slip (Haas knot ) where that knot at the fly, the tag points to the fly, or for ultra clean water where I want a big fly to track perfectly straight, then it's the Steve Huff knot.
> 
> For a direct tie to the fly (no loop), then mostly I'll tie an improved clinch knot or sometimes I do a uni knot.
> 
> Bluezone - That's why I couldn't trust it for fishing.
> 
> jon conner - Most 100% pure fluorocarbon leader materials are stiff and stiffer than mono, but not as stiff as hard mason. The fluoros found that is more supple, like what they use for fluorocarbon "fishing line" (not leader), especially like the stuff that comes in large spools (for the same price as 25yrs of leader material) to spool up a spinning or baitcaster reel with, is fluorocarbon coated mono core. The mono core keeps it supple to cast with conventional reels. Sure it's better than mono and holds knots better than 100% fluoro leader materials, but it is not as abrasive resistant (bite resistant) and doesn't disappear as well as the true blue stuff does!


Thanks again. I use two uni knots to tie mono leader to braid. Learned from a keys guide


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## Backwater

permitchaser said:


> I was reading Bill Bishop's book High Rollers again. This time I wanted to see what knots he used. He said he uses a huffnagle to attach the bite to class tippet. He says he uses a double overhead knot then the wraps. Sounds more like a Slim Beauty to me. I enjoyed the book but 280 flies on stretchers arranged by color is a little anal


Never read any of his books but Bill and I have talked on several occasions. He was probably referring to a huffnagle with 2 lines coming off of a bimini *the big loop at the tail end of a bimini. That's what Stu Apte uses, which I'm sure Bill learned it from him.


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## permitchaser

Backwater said:


> Never read any of his books but Bill and I have talked on several occasions. He was probably referring to a huffnagle with 2 lines coming off of a bimini *the big loop at the tail end of a bimini. That's what Stu Apte uses, which I'm sure Bill learned it from him.


I have his book on our kindle. And am referring to it that will help me find Tarpon
I went out this evening a cast my 13 wt. It is a custom made Sage 2 built by Charlie Reading in "87. It's still shoots line like a rocket
I have used it twice Tarpon fishing. Once around 1990 I flew to Miami then drove to the keys. I think Islamarada but I am not sure I stayed at a motel that had giant Tarpon in the swimming pool Also with Bonefish. I fed the Tarpon shrimp by hand. I had a guide and cast to Tarpon for 2 days with only 1 follow. Got yelled at and buzzed by a guide who said we had his spot
Next time I was in Tampa and my friend that owned Family Boating arranged for me to go out with one of his guides. I had to go to his house the night before to show him my stretcher box. Then on the day of the trip he would only let me take one fly rod. As we motored out he said the weather was to rough on the beach so we staid inside. I had to use my 13 wt. to try and catch a red fish. So he wanted me to blind cast to see if we could find one. I caught one small trout. And he said I could cast good enough to catch Tarpon. Dah!
Since then I have sworn off guides.
Sorry to hijack your thread Ted


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## Backwater

permitchaser said:


> I have his book on our kindle. And am referring to it that will help me find Tarpon
> I went out this evening a cast my 13 wt. It is a custom made Sage 2 built by Charlie Reading in "87. It's still shoots line like a rocket
> I have used it twice Tarpon fishing. Once around 1990 I flew to Miami then drove to the keys. I think Islamarada but I am not sure I stayed at a motel that had giant Tarpon in the swimming pool Also with Bonefish. I fed the Tarpon shrimp by hand. I had a guide and cast to Tarpon for 2 days with only 1 follow. Got yelled at and buzzed by a guide who said we had his spot
> Next time I was in Tampa and my friend that owned Family Boating arranged for me to go out with one of his guides. I had to go to his house the night before to show him my stretcher box. Then on the day of the trip he would only let me take one fly rod. As we motored out he said the weather was to rough on the beach so we staid inside. I had to use my 13 wt. to try and catch a red fish. So he wanted me to blind cast to see if we could find one. I caught one small trout. And he said I could cast good enough to catch Tarpon. Dah!
> Since then I have sworn off guides.
> Sorry to hijack your thread Ted


Sorry you had some bad experiences. If you ever want to book a really good guide, just make a post well in advanced and the area in which you are going and there are enough of use to steer you into a great trip with a really good guide.

That rod will be a very progressive rod. compares to 13wts today. So that's good and makes it easier to throw bigger sticks like that instead of a fast, stiff 13wt, which is a chore to throw. I'm a 13wt guy myself and still keep one on hand for certain situations. What I recommend is I'm sure the line is now too old. So do yourself a favor and buy a good new line for the rod. Hummm.... ~thinks~ I have a hard to fine, near new clear floating 13wt fly line by Monic that I only dry threw on the lawn once and wet threw the line one time. I cleaned it and boxed it back up as a backup. You can have it for $30 plus about $5 for shipping. You can PM me direct. I just threw it up on ebay if you want to buy it that way if you are interested. Either way, you'll need to replace your old fly line. If you want it, I'll throw in some good tarpon flies that should work good for that area (not Keys flies, which are not good for the Gulf Coast).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/301955088417?item=301955088417&vectorid=229466&rmvSB=true

Ted


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## permitchaser

Backwater said:


> Sorry you had some bad experiences. If you ever want to book a really good guide, just make a post well in advanced and the area in which you are going and there are enough of use to steer you into a great trip with a really good guide.
> 
> That rod will be a very progressive rod. compares to 13wts today. So that's good and makes it easier to throw bigger sticks like that instead of a fast, stiff 13wt, which is a chore to throw. I'm a 13wt guy myself and still keep one on hand for certain situations. What I recommend is I'm sure the line is now too old. So do yourself a favor and buy a good new line for the rod. Hummm.... ~thinks~ I have a hard to fine, near new clear floating 13wt fly line by Monic that I only dry threw on the lawn once and wet threw the line one time. I cleaned it and boxed it back up as a backup. You can have it for $30 plus about $5 for shipping. You can PM me direct. I just threw it up on ebay if you want to buy it that way if you are interested. Either way, you'll need to replace your old fly line. If you want it, I'll throw in some good tarpon flies that should work good for that area (not Keys flies, which are not good for the Gulf Coast).
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/301955088417?item=301955088417&vectorid=229466&rmvSB=true
> 
> Ted


Ted
The line on my #4 Fin-Nor has been replace since "87. It says Mastery on the sticker. I keep all my reels in a cool place out of the sun so the line keeps. But if you think I need to update the line I'll be glad to accept your deal
HOW DO YOU PM WITH THIS NEW SET UP


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## permitchaser

Backwater said:


> Sorry you had some bad experiences. If you ever want to book a really good guide, just make a post well in advanced and the area in which you are going and there are enough of use to steer you into a great trip with a really good guide.
> 
> That rod will be a very progressive rod. compares to 13wts today. So that's good and makes it easier to throw bigger sticks like that instead of a fast, stiff 13wt, which is a chore to throw. I'm a 13wt guy myself and still keep one on hand for certain situations. What I recommend is I'm sure the line is now too old. So do yourself a favor and buy a good new line for the rod. Hummm.... ~thinks~ I have a hard to fine, near new clear floating 13wt fly line by Monic that I only dry threw on the lawn once and wet threw the line one time. I cleaned it and boxed it back up as a backup. You can have it for $30 plus about $5 for shipping. You can PM me direct. I just threw it up on ebay if you want to buy it that way if you are interested. Either way, you'll need to replace your old fly line. If you want it, I'll throw in some good tarpon flies that should work good for that area (not Keys flies, which are not good for the Gulf Coast).
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/301955088417?item=301955088417&vectorid=229466&rmvSB=true
> 
> Ted


sent to you a PM or conversation or what ever they call it


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## Backwater

Lol, yea your line is due to be replaced!


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## Blue Zone

permitchaser said:


> Ted
> The line on my #4 Fin-Nor has been replace since "87. It says Mastery on the sticker. I keep all my reels in a cool place out of the sun so the line keeps. But if you think I need to update the line I'll be glad to accept your deal
> HOW DO YOU PM WITH THIS NEW SET UP


Wow! Nice to see someone else on here who hasn't become a victim of those new-fangled fly reels. Ted's probably right as usual; after 29 years you might want to make a change out your fly line. Might want to change out the backing as well...


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## NDuncan

If you look at some of the first publications of "Vic Dunaways Complete Book of Baits, Rigs & Tackle" you will find that Vic attributes the invention of this loop knot to me, it was originally, and in many places still is called the "Duncan Loop". I have extensive correspondence where I have tried to straighten out some of the misinformation and incorrect illustrations. N


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## Backwater

Norman, it is a pleasure and an a honor to have you on our fly board. 

Guys and gals, take note, Norman has been doing this thing here in Florida when some of us were not even born yet!









_Fifty years ago it was different. Legend Norman Duncan __catches 
another monster snook. Photo taken on Florida State road 92 
– just off the “Trail. Then, Marco Island was uninhabited and 
the beach was loaded with big snook. 
Photo courtesy of Norman Duncan._

http://midcurrent.com/contributors/norman-duncan/


Yes, one of the more famous loop knot and is very similar to a uni knot but not completely cinched down to form a loop.

Here is George Anderson demonstrating the Duncan Loop.






Norm, thanks for the clarification! 

Cheers!

Ted Haas


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## Blue Zone

Thanks Ted, I was wondering who he was. I posted one his photos of Chico Fernandez down on the Challenger thread.


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## Backwater

Btw, I took George (above in the video) to a little secret snook spot about 2 weeks ago. It was right after that storm and George caught about 15 snook on fly). I think he was using a duncan loop to begin with, but by habit when I changed out his fly, I tied my normal loop knot I use.

Anyways, Norm and Vic are certainly fishing legends here in Florida. Good stuff!


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## Blue Zone

When i was a kid, I used to rise early to be the first one to get the Miami Herald (was it Saturday or Sunday) to pour over Vic Dunaway's and Jim Martenoff's columns.


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## jsnipes

Yea that knot is always super pretty. I feel like I quit using it after the move to fluoro...it ties super nicely though with thicker mono, e.g. 30-50lb.


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## crboggs

floridascuba said:


> The knot with 2 overhand knots is called the canoe man knot I believe. Or at least that's what Blair Wiggins called it. I don't like it. Had it fail on me.


That's the knot that I had either break or pull loose on Friday when I fed my first tarpon.

Thus the reason I'm back in this thread reading up on some new (to me) knots.


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## Backwater

crboggs said:


> That's the knot that I had either break or pull loose on Friday when I fed my first tarpon.
> 
> Thus the reason I'm back in this thread reading up on some new (to me) knots.


Chris, I too had them pull and break. That's why I spent so much time on knots, leaders and hooks for tarpon back in the day (90's), since I was depending on it for my livelihood (specializing in tarpon and snook on fly). When you had people flying in from all over the world to come fly fish with you for big poons and you have tackle failures, it's all on you and you learn and figure it out quickly, otherwise, your out of business! Hence the reason for my loop knot and the use other proven knots that really work well. Also, one thing to note, it is extremely important with tarpon to fully and completely cinch down the knot completely with lots of pressure (especially with the higher pound test materials) rather than haphazardly just tying the knot and tightening it some. Remember, aside from the tippet, your knots are your weakest link and a big fish will find all of the faults and weaknesses in your rigging. It's not so important with smaller inshore species.


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## floridascuba

I haven't had any issues yet with my loop knot. I do the first over hand knot, pull it down to the hook eye, then do a clinch knot on top of it. Haven't had it break or pull on me.


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## Backwater

floridascuba said:


> I haven't had any issues yet with my loop knot. I do the first over hand knot, pull it down to the hook eye, then do a clinch knot on top of it. Haven't had it break or pull on me.


I thought it was the canoeman or 2 dbl overhand knots. Yea I've caught maybe over a 1000 fish on fly( and hundreds of snook) on that very knot and worked fine for years when I first started out using a loop knot for fly fishing, but it only took me several big tarpon before I realized it wasn't the knot for me. Since I changed it, I never went back to it.

But if you are doing an overhand (half hitch), running it thru the eye of the hook and then back thru the overhand knot hole, then doing a clinch knot on top of that instead of another overhand knot, then that should work and is close to what I do on my knot, or with Lefty's knot or a non-slip mono loop. However, the tag will come straight out the side vs pointing down towards the fly (which avoids catching seaweed).

Just my fitty cents worth!


----------

