# Sticky  Tarpon leader ?'s



## Danny Moody

Where's Ted?


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## Pierson

deleted


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## reallyshallow

THX1138 said:


> Someone teach me about Tarpon leaders. Best to buy pre-made or make your own?
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Lou


This is the fourmula I use.

For 11 & 12wt - 6' of 60, 3-4' of 40, 15" of 16lb mason for class, 1' of bite tippet of your choice. Makes for a 12-13' leader. Blood knots throughout, improved blood knot for the class.


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## LowHydrogen

jk


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## THX1138

Hahahahaha!! I take it this subject has been beat to death in the past?

Lou


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## permitchaser

Yep. Pm Ted


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## THX1138

So um... who's ted?

Lou


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## tailwalk

Yes this subject gets beat to death, probably every year around this time. If you're starting out, don't like tying / don't know the knots, don't have time, etc. etc., there's nothing necessarily 'wrong' with premade leaders. that said there's something attractive to many about rolling your own. It's similar to flies, I think. You can buy what someone else made and live with it (quite successfully I might add) or you can do it yourself and know you've created exactly what you're looking for. I personally prefer tying my own. That way win or lose, it's on me. as for formulas, they're everywhere, pick one and give it a shot. Andy Mill's book, Rob Fordyce and Donald Larmouth's, and Bill Bishop's are all good investments.


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## Capt. Eli Whidden

For migrating fish in shallow water, blood knots are the norm for your butt to mid section to class. For your 16-20# class to 60-80# bite tippet, an Albright would be a much stronger connection. Hard mono for everything except the bite tippet. Less knots the better. People get crazy with these setups. 

Tarpon are not near as smart as we think they are. Presentation is more important than anything. And the right flies of course!!


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## LowHydrogen

THX1138 said:


> So um... who's ted?
> 
> Lou


@Backwater = Ted

And don't worry about it I was just giving you shit. A bunch of us never get tired of hearing/reading/talking about leaders/knots, flies, materials etc. Especially me since I'm back stuck up on another project in the upper Midwest until summer.


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## Backwater

What, what.... Yawn!

Ok Lou (THX1148), since you have a lil time on yer hands, read the following thread below that we had last summer on leader materials and the "whys". This will give you the prelimanary setup for what type of meader materials to use and why.

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/leader-tippet-diameter-and-strength-chart.39459/

Geeze, re-reading that thread, I must have drank a few too many cups of coffee! lol


When I get a chance, I'll either find a thread or one of my PM replies I did on the subject and post it up here.

Ted Haas


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## THX1138

Thanks broski!

Lou


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## Backwater

Lou, here's a thread we did last summer on loop knots and what knots to connect butt section to tippet, including bimini's and knot connections from tippet to bite leader. All is important with the process of building the right tarpon leader.

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/loop-knots.38850/

Several days ago, I was watching a 60lb laid up resident tarpon waiting for mullet to swim by. Water temps are rising quickly to that magical #.

Ted


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## Backwater

A couple of other threads on leaders. Btw, hard mono, hard mason, mason, hard nylon.... pretty much, one in the same IMO. Read this too.

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/rio-hard-mono-for-leaders.43708/#post-346707


Somewhere in this next thread on the 2nd page is where I touch on "homeboy rig vs tapered leaders" for tarpon. Also biminis and the whys they are used, as well as my version of a large bimini which I call the "magnum bimini!" Good to know the "whys!" 

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/backing-for-tarpon-reel.36837/


The inshore leader thread below on page 2, I talked about doing blood knots to connect each leg of your butt section of your leader using one less turn for the larger diameter side of the knot than the smaller diameter size of the knot.

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/fly-fishing-knots.41999/


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## Backwater

So Lou, do you know what size fish or size rods you will be fishing with. Moreover, it really depends on what size fly line and what type of flyline, weather it be a floating line, sink tip or sinking line. of course, what size fish you are targeting and what flies will be thrown to them.

If it's small micro tarpon, a 6wt to 8wt will work. Up to juvenal tarpon size up to 10 and even up to 20lbs, ... more like 7-9wt. Then little poons from... say 20lbs up to 30-40lbs, a 9wt-10wt is ideal. With those fish, you can just use a standard inshore leader system and nix the bimini.

Going 30lbs to 60lbs a 10wt is ideal. Shallow water Keys tarpon, fishing on the shallow grass flats or Gulf coast smaller beach tarpon from 50 -120, an 11wt is ideal. Any more deeper water fish near passes, in deeper beaches, away from the shallows where you have to do some serious lifting, or in an area where the fish are grown, then I always recommend a 12wt. This is where you really need a tarpon leader system, from these 10wt size fish and up.

So here is the quick summary from the threads that you read above where you are fishing for those 10wt size fish or larger. The following, the system I'm going to give you is for 11wt-12wt flylines and fish. If using a 10wt, you can throttle the 1st leg size back by 10lb test. So here is my "*Ted Haas K.I.S.S. tarpon leader system*."

Remember, Mason, hard mason, hard mono, in this description is one in the same. its pretty inexpensive and easily gotten from your local fly shop or Cabelas/BPS.

*For floating leaders, mason or hard mono butt sections of the leader.*

Loop to loop connection from butt leader to fly line. So the 1st leg will start out with a Steve Huff double figure 8 loop knot. This loops tracks completely straight, one of the strongest loop knot I know of, but somewhat bulky, so I want it as far away from the fish as possible. However, you notice the tag points back to the fly, thereby avoiding grass and slime.

*40/30/20 HM.*

The leg lengths below are what you want to end up with, so leave some extra length to tie with or leave it still on the spool, then just cut off some extra to tie the other end with.

*1st leg - 4ft of 40lb HM* (Hard Mason), to the *2nd leg of 2ft of 30lb HM*. This connection gets a blood knot, where the 40lb has 3 turns and the 30lb has 4 turns in it. Wet with spit and really cinch down tight. So that 2nd leg gets a blood knot to the *3rd leg of 1.5ft of 20lb HM*. The 30lb gets 4 turns on the blood knot and the 20lb gets 5 turns. Again, fully and completely cinch those well lubed up (with spit) knots, down good. Trim tags ends flush at the knot. The blood knots will end up being as about as small as it can get and still hold. You'll notice blood knot sizes when it get's run in and out of your snake guides, so best to leave the whole leader out of the tip top guide.

At the end of the 3rd leg of 20lb mason, tie in a "Non-Slip mono loop knot, or Lefty Krey loop knot (one in the same) or a Haas loop knot (same but one less turn). Notice that those tag ends will continue pointing towards the fly, thereby (again) reducing fouling from weeds or slim. Those tags on both loop knots can be clipped back about 1/8" from the knot, for a little insurance purposes (especially if cinched down completely).

So there you have it! That's the butt section of the leader. If you are wanting to use *mono instead of mason*, then use the size/pound test of the following using FC recipe as the example since the material diameter is about the same as FC.

*Using Fluorocarbon (FC) as the butt section of a tarpon leader for bub surface or sinking fly lines and flies.*

All leg lengths and knots will be exactly the same as the Mason recipe above. Pound test changes though.

*60/40/30 FC.*


Alternative Butt leaders

On windy days, and/or with really bushy flies or really heavy flies for both mono, mason or FC, use 5ft as the 1st leg, then 1.5ft in length for the 2nd leg and finally 1-1.5ft on the 3rd leg.
*

Tippet and bite leader
*
To start out, I always use FC tippets, no matter what the butt section is made of. If the fly line is floating and the butt section floats, as well as your floating fly and you want everything to float, a small thin piece of FC will be held up. Otherwise, most big tarpon flies are not true flotation, but can ride high, within inches from the surface. So FC wouldn't hurt that process, be abrasion resistant and stealthy.

You'll find that most tarpon tourneys inthe Keys are using 16lb tippets. But they are using mason for that. You'll find that 16lb mason and 20lb FC is about the same diameter, especially with Seaguar. But some smaller FC like Yozuri is thinner yet, but still ok to use since it's stiff enough

For me, with regular tarpon fly angling, I use 20lb FC tippet, unless I need ultra stealth or trying to seek records, which I'm not these days. So 20 is still stealthy but enough to pour on the juice to a hot fish.

Tho IGFA says a minimum of 15", there is no max. However it can be too long to properly turn over. I like my fly as far away from my flyline and bimini and still turn over good. So I'm normally going with a 24-30" FC tippet

Note - On very windy days with heavy or bushy flies, then I'll go down to a 18"-24" tippet.

So I buy those larger arbor spools of FC (25yrds to 30meters), which keeps the memory out of the line.

On the butt end side of the tippet, I'll tie in a 30-40 turn "magnum" bimini with a huffnagel and a loop knot in the loop (the loop knot has 2 legs or lines). That loop knot is a 3 turn surgeons loop. The loop is close to the bimini and tags cut close. One drop of super glue on the surgeons loop knot and one drop on the huffnagel ONLY, not on the bimini twist itself.

So basically a 2ft tippet is normal for me, from bimini to bite leader. If and only if the winds are low, my casting is spot-on and the fish are weary, I might go as long as a 3ft tippet. But watch to make sure the fly is fully unrolling out there and not slapping the water or hinging on you.

On the business end of the tippet, I'll use an "Alberto knot" with tag ends clipped close.

*Bite leaders* can be from 40lb to 80lb. I've even used 100lb in dark dirty water or at night in the dark (not by lights). But normally for the bigger fish during daylight hours, I'm using 60lb. I like really clear FC for this and I pre-stretch my leader before I cut them. We can talk later how I do this, but you can pre-stretch it, cut it to 2ft lenghts and store it in small tubes to keep it straight and keep the memory out of it.

Again, IGFA says a maximum of 12" from knot to fly. But that's for record setting. Personally, I use it from 12-18", depending on what I'm doing. If you are going to be riffling thru flies 1st thing in the morning, trying to see what they will eat, by clipping off flies and tying on multiple times, then I'll start out with 18" and then replace it when it get's down to about 8". That's also where the slightly longer tippet comes in handy. On a side note, I've landed poons where I was in a hurry to change out the bite leader and clipped and re-tied it down to a 6" piece of bite leader. 

If you are using a tarpon fly stretcher box to keep them pre-rigged and straighten, then 12" measured will work, in case you land an eye-opening fish that you want to get checked out.

*Loop knot to the fly - *

For me, it's the Haas loop knot since the larger diameter material will do well with less turns (basically a 2 turn non-slip mono loop knot). Otherwise, a 3 turn Non-Slip Mono loop or Lefty Krey Loop knot (same thing) will work too and have a little extra insurance there. Again, the tag is swept back and faces the fly, avoiding weeds and slime.

And that's it! This all seams complicated, but once you get it figured out, it's pretty easy to tie up.

Good luck and let me know how you do.

Ted Haas


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## THX1138

Holy crap bro! Thank you so much! Let me get some reading done and I'll get back on here shortly. Thank you again, this is amazing!

Lou


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## Blue Zone

Backwater said:


> So Lou, do you know what size fish or size rods you will be fishing with. Moreover, it really depends on what size fly line and what type of flyline, weather it be a floating line, sink tip or sinking line. of course, what size fish you are targeting and what flies will be thrown to them.
> 
> If it's small micro tarpon, a 6wt to 8wt will work. Up to juvenal tarpon size up to 10 and even up to 20lbs, ... more like 7-9wt. Then little poons from... say 20lbs up to 30-40lbs, a 9wt-10wt is ideal. With those fish, you can just use a standard inshore leader system and nix the bimini.
> 
> Going 30lbs to 60lbs a 10wt is ideal. Shallow water Keys tarpon, fishing on the shallow grass flats or Gulf coast smaller beach tarpon from 50 -120, an 11wt is ideal. Any more deeper water fish near passes, in deeper beaches, away from the shallows where you have to do some serious lifting, or in an area where the fish are grown, then I always recommend a 12wt. This is where you really need a tarpon leader system, from these 10wt size fish and up.
> 
> So here is the quick summary from the threads that you read above where you are fishing for those 10wt size fish or larger. The following, the system I'm going to give you is for 11wt-12wt flylines and fish. If using a 10wt, you can throttle the 1st leg size back by 10lb test. So here is my "*Ted Haas K.I.S.S. tarpon leader system*."
> 
> Remember, Mason, hard mason, hard mono, in this description is one in the same. its pretty inexpensive and easily gotten from your local fly shop or Cabelas/BPS.
> 
> *For floating leaders, mason or hard mono butt sections of the leader.*
> 
> Loop to loop connection from butt leader to fly line. So the 1st leg will start out with a Steve Huff double figure 8 loop knot. This loops tracks completely straight, one of the strongest loop knot I know of, but somewhat bulky, so I want it as far away from the fish as possible. However, you notice the tag points back to the fly, thereby avoiding grass and slime.
> 
> *40/30/20 HM.*
> 
> The leg lengths below are what you want to end up with, so leave some extra length to tie with or leave it still on the spool, then just cut off some extra to tie the other end with.
> 
> *1st leg - 4ft of 40lb HM* (Hard Mason), to the *2nd leg of 2ft of 30lb HM*. This connection gets a blood knot, where the 40lb has 3 turns and the 30lb has 4 turns in it. Wet with spit and really cinch down tight. So that 2nd leg gets a blood knot to the *3rd leg of 1.5ft of 20lb HM*. The 30lb gets 4 turns on the blood knot and the 20lb gets 5 turns. Again, fully and completely cinch those well lubed up (with spit) knots, down good. Trim tags ends flush at the knot. The blood knots will end up being as about as small as it can get and still hold. You'll notice blood knot sizes when it get's run in and out of your snake guides, so best to leave the whole leader out of the tip top guide.
> 
> At the end of the 3rd leg of 20lb mason, tie in a "Non-Slip mono loop knot, or Lefty Krey loop knot (one in the same) or a Haas loop knot (same but one less turn). Notice that those tag ends will continue pointing towards the fly, thereby (again) reducing fouling from weeds or slim. Those tags on both loop knots can be clipped back about 1/8" from the knot, for a little insurance purposes (especially if cinched down completely).
> 
> So there you have it! That's the butt section of the leader. If you are wanting to use *mono instead of mason*, then use the size/pound test of the following using FC recipe as the example since the material diameter is about the same as FC.
> 
> *Using Fluorocarbon (FC) as the butt section of a tarpon leader for bub surface or sinking fly lines and flies.*
> 
> All leg lengths and knots will be exactly the same as the Mason recipe above. Pound test changes though.
> 
> *60/40/30 FC.*
> 
> 
> Alternative Butt leaders
> 
> On windy days, and/or with really bushy flies or really leavy flies for moth mono, mason or FC, use 5ft as the 1st leg, then 1.5ft in length for the 2nd leg and finally 1-1.5ft on the 3rd leg.
> *
> 
> Tippet and bite leader
> *
> To start out, I always use FC tippets, no matter what the but section is bade of. If the fly line is floating and the butt section floats, as well as your floating fly and you want everything to float, a small thin piece of FC will be held up. Otherwise, most big tarpon flies are not true floation, but can ride high, within inches from the surface. So FC wouldn't hurt that process, be abrasion resistant and stealthy.
> 
> You'll find that most tarpon tourneys inthe Keys are using 16lb tippets. But they are using mason for that. You'll find that 16lb mason and 20lb FC is about the same diameter, especially with segard. But some smaller FC like Yozuri is thinner yet, but still ok to use since it's stiff enough
> 
> For me, with regular tarpon fly angling, I use 20lb FC tippet, unless I need ultra stealth or trying to seek records, which I'm not these days. So 20 is still stealthy but enough to pour on the juice to a hot fish.
> 
> Tho IGFA says a minimum of 15", there is no max. However it can be too long to properly turn over. I like my fly as far away from my flyline and bimini and still turn over good. So I'm normally going with a 24-30" FC tippet
> 
> Note - On very windy days with heavy or bushy flies, then I'll go down to a 18"-24" tippet.
> 
> So I buy those larger arbor spools of FC (25yrds to 30meters), which keeps the memory out of the line.
> 
> On the butt end side of the tippet, I'll tie in a 30-40 turn "magnum" bimini with a huffnagel and a loop knot in the loop (the loop knot has 2 legs or lines). That loop knot is a 3 turn surgeons loop. The loop is close to the bimini and tags cut close. One drop of super glue on the surgeons loop knot and one drop on the huffnagel ONLY, not on the bimini twist itself.
> 
> So basically a 2ft tippet is normal for me, from bimini to bite leader. If and only if the winds are low, my casting is spot-on and the fish are weary, I might go as long as a 3ft tippet. But watch to make sure the fly is fully unrolling out there and not slapping the water or hinging on you.
> 
> One the business end of the tippet, I'll use an "alberto knot" with tag ends clipped close.
> 
> *Bite leaders* can be from 40lb to 80lb. I've even used 100lb in dark dirty water or at night in the dart (not by lights). But normally for the bigger fish, I'm using 60lb. I like really clear FC for this and I pre-stretch my leader before I cut them. We can talk later how I do this, but you can pre-stretch it, cut it to 2ft lenghts and store it in small tubes to keep it straight and keep the memory out of it.
> 
> Again, IGFA says a maximum of 12" from knot to fly. But that's for record setting. Personally, I use it from 12-18", depending on what I'm doing. If you car going to be riffling thru flies 1st thing in the morning, trying to see what they will eat, by clipping off flies and tying on multiple times, then I'll start out with 18" and then replace it when it get's down to about 8". That's also where the slightly longer tippet comes in handy. On a side note, I've landed poons where I was in a hurry to change out the bite leader and clipped and re-tied it down to a 3" piece of bite leader.
> 
> If you are using a tarpon fly stretcher box to keep them pre-rigged and straighten, then 12" measured will work, in case you land an eye-opening fish that you want to get checked out.
> 
> *Loop knot to the fly - *
> 
> For me, it's the Haas loop knot since the larger diameter material can due well with less turns. Otherwise, a 3 turn Non-Slip Mono loop or Lefty Krey Loop knot will work too. Again, the tag is swept back and faces the fly, avoiding weeds and slime.
> 
> Any that's it! This all seams complicated, but once you get it figured out, it's pretty easy to tie up.
> 
> Good luck and let me know how you do.
> 
> Ted Haas


Very well done, Ted. 
*
They ought to sticky your post*; at the very least it provides a fine blueprint that can be modified here and there if anyone feels the need.


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## coconutgroves

+1 on the sticky! They need to do the same thing for "Line recommendations for an 8 wt" - that one comes up more than this one!


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## THX1138

@Backwater
Mind. Blown.

First off, let me say thank you. This has been some eye opening reading and a boat load (no pun intended ;-)) of info to process.

My rig: 11wt Abel 9' 3pc and Mirage VI. This rod is primarily used for Muskie as I still live in Indiana. I get to FL a couple times a year and I have a two week trip planned for when I get home from this deployment.
With all that having been said, I have no delusions of grandeur and I do not expect to land a 100lb fish DIY with out knowing the waters or having zero experience. I am guessing my first poon will be a juve in the back country. I do have a couple days planned in the Coupon Bight area as well. Ill be in the south FL in late July. My trip will end in the Palm Coast area in early August. 
Moving on... I've ordered 60lb Hercules Dyneema for my backing. Near as I can tell it is pretty close to the Hatch backing and a fraction of the cost. Also, the multi-color is just cool. I have not chosen a fly line yet but I am leaning towards the Liquid crystal as it has gotten rave reviews from a lot of folks. The flies I have tied are the "standard" Bunny's, Toads, Roach's and few others. nothing too big or bulky. I intend to use floating line and hopefully target shallower fish if I happen upon them. I basically just want a good set-up on my 11wt just to be prepared. I'd hate to come across a string of fish and not be able to do anything about it. From what I've been reading, the most of the bigger fish will have begun to migrate north from the southern waters by late July but there can still be some good fishing with a little luck. At the end of my trip I will be in the Palm Coast area and the Matanzas inlet is only a 30-40 min motor up the ICW from my moms place. I have heard there can be some good fish cruising the beaches up there as well as randomly found in the back waters of the Pelicer creek area.

Now that that's all out there... Please feel free to tell me I'm nuts.

My final questions: What are your thoughts on knot tying aids such as a blood knot tool?
https://www.amazon.com/BLOOD-KNOT-TOOL-EZ-TIE/dp/B00BO9X2ZQ

What brand do you recommend for class tippet and bite mono? The yo-zuri? At this point I will probably make both Mono and FC butt sections using your formula (thank you again) and use FC tippet and bite tippet.

I have some cheap, Walmart brand 30lb here that I use for weed guards on my flies. I think I'm going to practice some of these new to me knots and see what shakes out...

Lou


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## Blue Zone

coconutgroves said:


> +1 on the sticky! They need to do the same thing for "Line recommendations for an 8 wt" - that one comes up more than this one!


Like a turd that won't flush...


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## THX1138

One more thing... How are you doing the Bimini to fly line? Are you passing the length of the fly line through the loop in the backing or running the backing though the loop in the fly line then tying the Bimini?

Lou


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## Backwater

QUOTE="THX1138
Mind. Blown. Wow, didn't think it would cause that! lol

First off, let me say thank you. This has been some eye opening reading and a boat load (no pun intended ;-)) of info to process. There is a lot to the "whys" and "hows" to this process. Tarpon is the only fish I've found to test your rigging to the furthest extend. So that's why I include to the saying...* "The devil is in the details!"*

My rig: 11wt Abel 9' 3pc Older rod with a slight progressive action throughout the entire stick, with still some good ass to the butt section for power. So the rod doesn't feel clunky, but does flow nicely throughout the cast tho it's a little heavy on the swing. But that's ok because it can work to your advantage with fishing cast from 20 to 60ft, which most poons and fish are hooked in. Don't try to hurry up your casting with this rod and let the rod work for you, instead of trying to over power the rod, and it will wake up and make it happen. Good close up casting and back country rod for laid up fish. This rod should not be over lined. One additional note, this is a good offshore pelagic combo. and Mirage VI. Very good and capable reel with adequate drag and plenty of backing room. I'd spool up about 300yrds at least on this reel. This rod is primarily used for Muskie as I still live in Indiana. I get to FL a couple times a year and I have a two week trip planned for when I get home from this deployment. As a former Navy man myself, I personally and sincerely THANK YOU for your service and I'm sure the break is well deserved! 
With all that having been said, I have no delusions of grandeur Nothing visioned, nothing gained!  and I do not expect to land a 100lb fish DIY with out knowing the waters or having zero experience. It's possible! I am guessing my first poon will be a juve in the back country. (again, 8-9wt fish) I do have a couple days planned in the Coupon Bight area as well. good laid up 11wt fish in there. PM me before you go and I can give you some pointers there. Ill be in the south FL in late July. My trip will end in the Palm Coast area in early August.
Moving on... I've ordered 60lb Hercules Dyneema for my backing. have you ordered it yet, if not, PM me about it. Near as I can tell it is pretty close to the Hatch backing and a fraction of the cost. No.... Also, the multi-color is just cool. I have not chosen a fly line yet but I am leaning towards the Liquid crystal as it has gotten rave reviews from a lot of folks. If so, then I recommend the sky blue tarpon taper version of the LC since it's important for you to see what your flyline is doing. Otherwise, I'm going to go out on a limb here and mentioned that you might also look at Wulff BTT for that particular rod. However, the LC should work fine for you. Also, the line you use in Florida might not work for Pike/ Musky fishing, due to the cold water temps. The flies I have tied are the "standard" Bunny's, Toads, Roach's and few others. nothing too big or bulky. I intend to use floating line and hopefully target shallower fish if I happen upon them. I basically just want a good set-up on my 11wt just to be prepared. I'd hate to come across a string of fish and not be able to do anything about it. From what I've been reading, the most of the bigger fish will have begun to migrate north from the southern waters by late July by late July, the migrating tarpon had already been to Boca Grande to Tampa Bay, the spawn was over by then and they are starting to move out towards Big Bend and the Pandhandle and on the east coast, they've moved up heading towards north Florida and beyond. but there can still be some good fishing with a little luck. The remaining fish in the Keys and Coupon Bight will be singles, resident fish, laid up at 1st light in the early morning, holding deeper on an incoming tide. This is where I would only be throwing an all FC leader system and nix the floating leader (it's slightly deeper in there (3-6ft on a higher tide). Mid morning and during the day, they will seek deeper cuts and channel edges to get some cooler water relief from the incoming tide, due to the hot water being scorched by the sun. So they will not be riding high and happy, like in late spring and early summer, but holding deeper. So the key is getting the fly to them at eye level. That's where the FC leader comes in handy. the end of my trip I will be in the Palm Coast area and the Matanzas inlet is only a 30-40 min motor up the ICW from my moms place. I have heard there can be some good fish cruising the beaches up there as well as randomly found in the back waters of the Pelicer creek area. July-Aug should see their fair share of the mullet run starting on the beaches. Look at Cresent beach to the pass and then going south of Matanzas. Ask around at the local bait shops where the mullet run is and then that's where I would target. Tarpon big snook and sharks will be gorging themselves on those juvenal silver mullet FC leader system for sure! Big mullet flies, (natural and also dark ones) that push a lot of whater is what I'd be throwing at them, right smack in the "blitz!" The Matanzas Inlet bridge will hold tarpon at night on a slow moving tide. Either big white bushy seducer flies or big black or black/purple mullet flies will be the trick there. A boat with a TM is key there with someone that can operate the boat while the other guy cast to the leading tide side of each piling. Sit back and watch the pilings to see if fish pop or roll around it, then move in to that area and cast around that piling.

Now that that's all out there... Please feel free to tell me I'm nuts.  IMO, people who are not nuts, don't catch tarpon! Fact! 

My final questions: What are your thoughts on knot tying aids such as a blood knot tool?
https://www.amazon.com/BLOOD-KNOT-TOOL-EZ-TIE/dp/B00BO9X2ZQ 

NO! You don't need that! Just moe junk to carry around with ya! They are simple enough to tie and you can pre-tie them and get them right before hand.

What brand do you recommend for class tippet and bite mono? The yo-zuri? At this point I will probably make both Mono and FC butt sections using your formula (thank you again) and use FC tippet and bite tippet.

For tippet, it doesn't matter much and whatever you have in 20lb FC, use it, tho I've been using the Tsunami Pro Grade in the 20-30lb that you find in Walmart. It's really clear, smaller dia and stiff. Low memory too and seems to be good abrasion resistant as well, so far, since I started using it a couple of years ago.









You can order it in bigger lb test sizes on ebay, but if you don't have 40-60lb FC for bite tippet, I personally like the "CLEAR, not the disappearing pink" Yozuri that you get from Bass Pro in the larger spools (to reduce memory) for the heavier bite leader. I also like the yozuri since its a smaller dia than Seaguar. 










I have some cheap, Walmart brand 30lb low cost doesn't always mean cheap! here that I use for weed guards on my flies. I think I'm going to practice some of these new to me knots and see what shakes out...


Lou

Good luck! 

Ted Haas


----------



## Backwater

THX1138 said:


> One more thing... How are you doing the Bimini to fly line? Are you passing the length of the fly line through the loop in the backing or running the backing though the loop in the fly line then tying the Bimini?
> 
> Lou


You are not doing a bimini to the flyline. The bimini is on the tippet with that loop being made so it can be connected to the business end loop of the butt leader system (with a loop to loop connection). The the other end of the tippet get's no bimini (but back in the old days, they did it like that) and get's tied with an alberto knot to the bite leader (a.k.a. the bite tippet).

Ted


----------



## MSG

Ted - what's the story on the hercules 60b braid? Looks like a super deal?? They have a 4 strand and an 8 strand - the 8 strand is only about $11 or so for 300 yards


----------



## THX1138

@Backwater 

Thank you again for all the info. I can't behind to tell you how much I appreciate it.
Thanks for the input on the rod, I found it on eBay for a price I couldn't pass on so I thought it was worth taking a chance on it. I picked up the reel around xmas and got it when they went on sale, could pass on the reel and a spare spool both for 3 hundo ;-)

As for line, I use WTT on a few other rods and love it. Does the Bermuda floating line have a loop on the leader end? If not, is a nail knot ok to form the loop on the head? I've done this on lower line weight rods as well as I use a nail knot to reinforce factory welded loops. Alaina with line, what is your preferred method of connecting backing to fly line? I thought for sure I read in one of the threads you linked that you Bimini twist the backing and the loop to loop backing to fly line. But my brain is half mush from everything I've read today so I could totally be mistaken, lol.

Backing... I have already ordered the Hercules but it was only $15. I'm totally willing to talk more about this and will PM you shortly. Worst case scenario, it will fill my second spool with my Muskie line. 

Thank you for the words of encouragement as well. I really can't wait to pick up my new Cayenne and hit the water. My wife for sure thinks I'm nuts in terms of my fishing habit but she fishes too so it's not that bad ;-)

One last thing, thank YOU for your service!

Lou


----------



## LowHydrogen

coconutgroves said:


> +1 on the sticky! They need to do the same thing for "Line recommendations for an 8 wt" - that one comes up more than this one!


We also need an "8wt setup for beginners".

@THX1138 when are you getting to Indiana? If you're here before I leave, we need to hit Sugar Creek


----------



## THX1138

We can make that happen brother. Should be July. Any luck yet?

Lou


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## LowHydrogen

THX1138 said:


> We can make that happen brother. Should be July. Any luck yet?
> 
> Lou


I think I'll be done here by the beginning of June. I'm hoping that happens because of tarpon but we'll see.

Got 6 large mouth in Willow Slough this past Sunday. Really pretty day sunny and warm, but it's been bad since then.

Weather app said tonight it's going to be 50-60mph winds and waves at the lakeshore could reach 14'-18' Lakeshore Dr in Chi might see flooding..... Oh and they said it'll probably snow some overnight too..... This place is ridiculous.


----------



## THX1138

Yeah, I pretty much avoid Chicago like the plague... lol. Its spring time, next week it will be 80 deg but the rivers will be blown out because of the rain. Its a vicious cycle. Hang in there!

Lou


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## Backwater

LowHydrogen said:


> We also need an "8wt setup for beginners".
> 
> @THX1138 when are you getting to Indiana? If you're here before I leave, we need to hit Sugar Creek


That pony has been whipped pretty good. I should just do a video and be done with it.


----------



## Backwater

MSG said:


> Ted - what's the story on the hercules 60b braid? Looks like a super deal?? They have a 4 strand and an 8 strand - the 8 strand is only about $11 or so for 300 yards





THX1138 said:


> @Backwater
> Backing... I have already ordered the Hercules but it was only $15. I'm totally willing to talk more about this and will PM you shortly. Worst case scenario, it will fill my second spool with my Muskie line.


We've also had this backing thread multiple times, but the jist of what I always say is, gel spun, Power Pro, 4, 8, ?? strand backing can not only bite into your spool on a direct lined spool like a fly reel with a big fish greyhounding on one and, and you trying to put the brakes to her on the other end. In other words, I've seen people break off a fish because the backing bite down into itself with all the pressure and got stuck and the fish broke itself off cause the spool wouldn't turn anymore.

However, the main reason is, I've seen too many people get their fingers cut while accidentally touching or grabbing with a hot poon making a sudden burst. Those lines, especially going thinner and having that course braided texture, with wet hands, is like a band saw blade ripping through your skin. I had a client once in Boca Grande that had his 12wt Abel strung up with about 400yrds of 50lb gel spun for backing, who had a hot fresh ocean fish make a blinding fast run towards an old pier and he accidentally wrapped his index and middle finger in front of the spool while palming it (to put more brakes on the fish) and the zipping backing cut both fingers to the bone. It was a bloody mess. The fish ended up breaking off around the pilings anyway. Hey, when they want to go, it's hard stopping them!

Anyways, that's why I've always used the softer material of Cortland's Micron 30lb. Softer and slightly thinner than dacron. But on and off, I've been testing various backing and backing alternatives. Corland has other products, I've looked at Rio, SA Jerry Brown, Hatch, Spiderwire Invisibraid, Toro Tamer 16 strand Hollow core, Power Pro Hollow Ace, and others. Still doing my search for the best value.

So the Cortland 30lb Micron is still a good value (at about $30.300yrd spool). Their other super braids are just too course.

*SA?* No! Course!

*Rio Backing* (normal stuff)? No! Course!

*Rio 2-tone GSP 50lb?* Big Yes! However, they only make it in the 50lb, which has the diameter of normal 20lb backing. Good if you are trying to fit more backing on a lesser capacity reel, but bad if you are trying to load up a full size 11/12wt tarpon reel, since it will reduce the arbor size (and be slower on the pickup). Plus the 50lb / 20lb size may still cut, tho its one of the smoothest backings I've tested so far. I think for a 9 & 10wt reel, I think it's perfect stuff for $29 retail for a 300yrd of 50lb (again, 20lb backing dia.). But it really needs to be 65lb+/- to get that in the right dia size to avoid cutting, tho it is super smooth.

*Power Pro?* Awe hell no!!! Stuff cuts like a band saw!

*PP Slick?* - The jury is still out on this one. I like the "slick" coating, but the stuff comes out on your fingers. Still, it's smoother than the standard PP.

*Hatch?* - 68lb was sent to me by Keith (you all know him as coconutgroves (well known board MS fly board member). Nice and smooth and in the right dia., but expensive ($68/300yrds)! A lot smoother than most, but not as smooth as others.

*Torro Tamer 16 strand Hollow Core* in 60lb - This was sent to me by well known MS fly board member sjm1580. He's an older guy whos been at it a long time too, that lives on the north side of the 10,000 Islands and has a whole line of Islander Reels, strung up with the stuff, so I have a lot of respect for him. Ok, the stuff is super smooth. Probably one of the smoothest backings I've felt. I'm going to say tho that it wasn't as smooth as that Rio 2-tone GSP 50, but it's close. It has 2 major advantages over standard round backing. Because it's hollow, it lays flat and wider than most dacron backings in the 30lb range. So flat, not tall and can still put more backing on at that pound test, than 30lb dacron. So probably 350yrds at that 60lb test over 300yrds of Dacron (slightly better than 30lb Cortland Micron). The other traight is, since it's hollow core, with a splicing needle, you can cut the loop off the backing side of your flyline, stick the needle on the end of the flyline and thread it into about 3ft of the hollow core stuff. With a whip finish and a drop of super glue at the end of the HC, you have probably the strongest connection from backing to fly line possible with no bumping thru the guides as it zips thru. The down side? 300meters of 60lb TTHC 16 strand will run you $80. You'll need the needle (no way to splice it w/o it) is about $10 and with shipping, you'll be just under $100. But if you are a gear head with really high end equipment, then it's worth it. The only other consicern is that it is super limp and I worry if it wouldn't get wind knots or foul easier than some.

*Power Pro Hollow Ace* - Same idea as the Toro Tamer Hollow Core, slightly less in price, but not as smooth.

Here's an alternative! *65lb Spiderwire Invisibraid ?*(about the same dia. as Cortland Micron). Not as smooth as the better braided backings I've tested, but stiffer than most. Might be good to resist fouling. Still, cheaper price than others. Nevertheless, I'd still pick the Cortland Micron over this line. Btw, some of the cheaper Spiderwire, like the Stealth has a smooth finish, but the finish comes off everywhere. They have some other new lines that I'm going to test, like their Ultra Cast - Fluorobraid and their new Stealth Translucent.

One thing clear that I've found is that the more "strands", the smoother the braid is. So if I were looking for an alternative to the standard Dacron or even Micron, then look at the braid count, then pull it thru your fingers tightly and see how it feels. Back in the day, a lot of new Gel Spun backings still had a low count of strands. I think the Rio 2 tone GSP (Gel Spun) is a major improvement, where I always use to "Boo" other gel spuns, due to their cutting properties. Like you use to be able to saw wood with it! Not as technology progresses, so are these new braided lines. So we'll see! 

I'm still testing others (sort of a "backing shoot-out!"). Lots more to test.

BTW Lou, I always tie in a standard Bimini Twist with a double loop at the end of my backing, so I can do a loop to loop connection to the loop on my fly line. The dbl loop on the Bimini needs to be long enough, therefore wide enough to run a spool thru it, so I can change out fly lines, even on the water.


*EDIT - Backing Shoot out update! *

After the backing shootout I did with all the brands out there, including all Cortland products (which Cortland 30lb Micron was my old tried and true backing), Hatch, Rio (tho I still like the Rio GSP 50, but decided it's too thin for big poon rigs), Jerry Brown, Power Pro Hollow Ace, Toro Tamer 16 straind Hollow Core (but still a very good one), Spiderwire Invisibraid and some others, I've found my favorite in Seaguar's Threadlock 60-80lb 16 strand hollow core braided line. Lays flat and wide on the spool, but round and thinner off the spool and silky smooth. The 60'b is about the dia of 25lb dacron and the 80lb is about the dia as 30lb dacron. But both lb test lays wider when flat on a surface, which can avoid finger cuts if accidentally touched when it's screaming out. So the Seaguar Threadlock won my backing shootout!

Ted Haas


----------



## Backwater

THX1138 said:


> @Backwater
> 
> Does the Bermuda floating line have a loop on the leader end? If not, is a nail knot ok to form the loop on the head? I've done this on lower line weight rods as well as I use a nail knot to reinforce factory welded loops. Alaina with line, what is your preferred method of connecting backing to fly line? I thought for sure I read in one of the threads you linked that you Bimini twist the backing and the loop to loop backing to fly line. But my brain is half mush from everything I've read today so I could totally be mistaken, lol.


Lou, with the bigger rods, I never want to do just a standard nail knot. If you don't trust the welded loops, then cut it off, go buy some of those 50lb braided loops (about 3-6" long) and install them the correct way (that can be another thread in of itself). There is a way to do a triple nail knot that has also worked. But with that dia butt section of the leader, it makes for a series of large knots that can be a hassle running thru your guides. So I don't always recommend them. Same thing can be done on your backing side of your flyline, with the braided loops (but try to find and use the 6"version of the 50lb loops for 10wts and above), tho a triple nail knot with fly line backing material can work, since the diameter is small. However, you loose the ability to quickly change out your fly line by not having a loop to loops connection on the backing to fly line (using a braided loop on the flyline and a large dbl loop attached to the bimini on the backing.)

*Installing 50lb clear braided loops onto your fly line.*

Those long braided loops can be threaded onto your fly line ends. The concept works like a Chinese thumb lock (the harder you pull, the tighter it gets.).

Here's a video describing how to install the braided loops onto your fly line. Below I will give you my modification to what I do to finish it, instead of finishing it the way the video describes it.






The modification to the video, for what I recommend for securing and finishing the ends, is I use 10lb test braid instead of the mono tippet material used in the video. The other exception is I'll not use a whip finish tool and just use a folded over piece of the same braid to make a loop, to pull the tag end under the loop (see videos on how to tie a nail knot without a tool).

So 1st step is to trim the braid even at the end so there is no fraying. Next pinch and hold the tip of the flyline within the braided tubing at the loop with one hand and use your thumb and fingers from your other hand to drawl back and pull the braid tightly towards the end of the braided tubing to about 3/4" from the end of the braided tubing and then pinch and hold that spot firmly. At that spot, use the 10lb test braid to tie in a 6-8 turn nail knot about 3/4" from the end of the braid. Use long tag ends on the braided line so you can grab them and cinch them down very tightly. Leave the tag ends until the entire process is completed, incase one of the nail knots loosen. That braided line will bite down into the flyline better than mono and be a smaller package going thru your guides.

Next about halfway between that 1st nail knot and the end of the braided tubing, pull any slack out of the braided tubing, drawling towards the end, then pinch and hold and tied in your 2nd nail knot the same way as the 1st one. Again, leave the tag ends long.

Finally, check for fraying at the end of the braided tubing end and trim if necessary again. Your final nail knot will act more like a rod wrapping whip finish process, completely covering the end of the tubing and a few wraps over onto the bare flyline itself. This not only pulls down the braided tubing ends and completely covers it (thereby creating a smooth end finish), but the few extra wraps on the flyline makes for extra holding insurance on the flyline itself. So to complete that nail knot, again, pull out the slack in the tubing and start wrapping your braided line about an 1/8" from the end and start wrapping, thread wrap next to each thread wrap and then wrapping off the braided tubing about another 1/16" or about 4-6 more wraps off the tubing. Slowly start pulling the tag ends of the nail knot, a little at a time to work the braided line wraps, next to each other and completely covering the braided tubing ends. A little at a time, using your fingers to work the knot together and over the braided tubing ends and onto the fly line. Once you work it down and completely cinch it down into a small package, the entire knot will only be about an 1/8 to 3/16" long.

Finally, do a final cinch down of all 3 knots, trim the tag ends flush and cover each knot with zap-a-gap or super glue and let it completely dry before touching it or reeling it onto the reel.

If someone knows how to service a loop, that last knot can be serviced with fly tying thread, instead of the mega nail knot using the 10lb braid. Here's a video of Bruce Chard with a fly tying spool method of servicing a loop. Only in this case, you are just servicing the end of the braided tubing and onto the flyline a little. Then super gluing it once completed.






Sorry for the lengthy instructions.

I do have other methods for attaching butt leaders or backing to the flyline securely, but they are a hellava lot more complicated.  So I'll save the bandwidth! 

The end results with these braided loops is you get a very secure hold on the flyline itself and the end loop is a smaller profile than the welded flyline loops.


One other tip I do to reduce the size of the loops bumping thru the guides on the butt leader. Pinch the butt leader loop together tightly and cause the leader material to kink and crease at that point (at the very tip or end of the leader loop. It wouldn't hurt the integrity or strength of the leader system, but will help to keep that loop with a smaller profile, especially with the braided loop. The end results will be a smaller bump thru the guides if the butt leader happens to pull up into the rod guides too far. If that happens, I try not to let the leader go any further than the 1st blood knot of the butt leader (the blood knot at the end of the 1st leg of the leader. As a side note, I've seen big knots hang in the rod's tip top or snake guides at the boat side and with one head shake of the fish, cause the tippet to break. 

If it happens, the best thing to do is point the rod tip straight at the fish and let the leader ease out of the rod guides.


This example is where the 1 leg of the butt section of the leader is in the rod guides, but that's it. The possibility of that connection hanging is much lower.

So be careful not to thread the whole string of knots of your butt leader, as well as the tippet connection, along with the bimini (a big no-no!) into your rod guides when the fish is at the boat.

On the backing side of the flyline, I like to run that dbl braided loop from the bimini thru the braided loop twice. That makes a total of 4 line loops going thru the braided loop, reducing cutting and also helping to keep the loop held tightly close into a small profile as it zips thru the guides.

Ted Haas


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## THX1138

Damn it man. I've learned more from this thread in the last few days then I though I would. Thank you again for taking the time to write all of this.

Making/ Reinforcing loops in fly line - I watched a video a while back on rigging for GT's and that's where I got the idea for nail knotting the factory loop as a reinforcement. I have used some Orvis and SA lines in the past that the factory loops never gave me any issues. MY wife and I both LOVE the Wulff TT lines and I think we now own 5 or 6 in various makes from Wulff. with that having been said, the factory loops on the Wulff lines have not help up well for us. Her 6wt TT+ was the first one to start separating. My first attempt at a repair was heat shrink but obviously that did not hold. I eventually just nail knotted a loop in and its held ever since. On our 7 and 8 WT's I proactively put a nail knot on the factory loop as a reinforcement and that hasn't been an issue so far.

Now that that's all out there... What are your opinions on the factory loops for the Wullf BTT and Cortland LC Tarpon? What method do you prefer for reinforcing a factory loop if it is warranted?

I tried to use a braided loop on a 5wt trout line early in my fly fishing days and it did not work out too well. I will admit that I really had no clue what I was doing when I installed it but I do remember it hanging on the guides all the time, lol. If I were to try these again, I would definitely serve in the end of the braid to cover it completely and I think that would be a solid.

Again, I cant thank you enough for all the time you've taken to help me out.

Lou


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## THX1138

@Backwater
What are your thoughts on intermediate lines or the use of a sink tip on a floating line?

Lou


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## sidelock

Ted I don't understand what you mean by "on the butt end side of the tippet, I tie in a 30-40 turn bimini with a Huffnagel and a loop knot in the loop" on your 60/40/30 FC leader set up in post #16. Can you please elaborate which knot attaches where ?
I clearly understand that you are attaching the fly to the bite tippet with a loop knot, the bite tippet to the class tippet with an Alberto knot but after that I'm lost. What I can't figure out is how you are attaching the 3 turn surgeon's loop in the bimini to the butt section and where you are tying the Huffnagel since you put a surgeon's loop in the bimini.


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## THX1138

My understanding is as follows...

Steve Huff double figure 8 loop (this is the butt end that will connect to the fly line via loop to loop) 60lb section, blood knot to 40lb, blood knot to 30lb, non-slip mono loop (this is the loop that will connect to your tippet), the butt section of the leader is now complete.
Bimini twist loop (This will connect your class tippet to the butt section also via loop to loop) 20lb class tippet, Alberto knot to 80lb bite tippet, non-slip mono loop to fly.

I hope this helps to clear up the actual leader. If you go though and re-read all the links listed in this thread you can get a good understanding of why what knot is used where. I won't lie, I had to read some of this stuff a couple times before it clicked but I think its some good info and it has helped me in other aspects of my fly fishing and rigging fly rods and leaders.

Lou


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## sidelock

Thanks Lou, I understand your description clearly and most of what I read in the listed links but Ted mentions a Huffnagel and a 3 turn surgeon's knot to double the loop in the class bimini in post #16 and that's where he lost me. If a Huffnagel is used to attach the butt section to the class bimini, it does not require a loop in the bimini so if he is putting a doubled loop in the bimini to attach the class tippet to the butt section with a loop to loop connection, where does the Huffnagel come in ? assuming he is not using it to attach the butt section to the fly line.


----------



## Backwater

Sorry guys, been tied up. I'll reply tomorrow.


----------



## Finn Maccumhail

So I'm headed to FL tomorrow and hopefully get to dance with the other woman but I've been fiddling around with my tarpon leaders and wanted to bounce this off the board regarding knots and leader construction.

That being- typically the recs to construct an IGFA-compliant leader recommend using a Bimini at either end of the class tippet and connecting to the butt section and bite tippet using one of the following knots: Huffnagle, Slim Beauty, or loop-to-loop (least common it seems). Alternatively the recipes tend to leave out the Bimini and connect at either end with an Improved Blood Knot or Slim Beauty.

Frankly, despite a good bit of practice I cannot consistently tie a good Bimini (except in my backing), Blood Knot, Huffnagle, or Slim Beauty.

What I can do quickly and well is the uni-knot.

So tell me why this wouldn't be a good idea on my tarpon leaders: tie a double-overhand knot in the end of the heavier butt section and bite tippet (50-100# test) but don't cinch down all the way. Then thread my 20# class through the double-overhand in the same manner as the Slim Beauty or Huffnagle. Then, using the heavier line as the "cinching post" tie a uni knot in the 20# class around the butt/bite. And once loosely tied cinch down the double-overhand most of the way, then cinch down the uni and finally cinch them both down so they're firmly seated against each other.

Thus, you've got the double-overhand as the "stopper" knot with the uni knot cinched down against the "stopper."

Anyway, I hope this was clear enough to follow.

Thoughts?


----------



## James Humphrey

THX1138 said:


> Someone teach me about Tarpon leaders. Best to buy pre-made or make your own?
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Lou


Make your own. All that matters is if you want to adhere to IFGA specs or NOT. (tournaments and records). Things get very specific for IFGA regs.


----------



## k-roc

Go on hatchoutdoors.com and check out Bruce Chard explain his tarpon leader setup. It's about as detailed as it gets if you watch the whole version, 20 min. or so.
I ended up writing the guys at Hatch on wednesday asking for a permit leader too, well they have one on there now too.


----------



## Seymour fish

reallyshallow said:


> This is the fourmula I use.
> 
> For 11 & 12wt - 6' of 60, 3-4' of 40, 15" of 16lb mason for class, 1' of bite tippet of your choice. Makes for a 12-13' leader. Blood knots throughout, improved blood knot for the class.


Same, but Jam Duncans, huffnagle into bite


----------



## G McC

sidelock said:


> Thanks Lou, I understand your description clearly and most of what I read in the listed links but Ted mentions a Huffnagel and a 3 turn surgeon's knot to double the loop in the class bimini in post #16 and that's where he lost me. If a Huffnagel is used to attach the butt section to the class bimini, it does not require a loop in the bimini so if he is putting a doubled loop in the bimini to attach the class tippet to the butt section with a loop to loop connection, where does the Huffnagel come in ? assuming he is not using it to attach the butt section to the fly line.


Read this a couple of times and still don't get where why and how the huffnagle and the surgeons loop come into play. I could understand if it was one loop know the end of the class to connect to the butt dontd understand there being two. What an I missing? Also, what's the reason for using a loop to loop between the butt section and the class section?


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## 4991

G McC said:


> Read this a couple of times and still don't get where why and how the huffnagle and the surgeons loop come into play. I could understand if it was one loop know the end of the class to connect to the butt dontd understand there being two. What an I missing? Also, what's the reason for using a loop to loop between the butt section and the class section?


Some people tie biminis on both ends of the class and connect the butt to class using double surgeons loops. Then you take the other bimini on the class and tie a huffnagle knot to connect to the bite. The double surgeons loop at the end of the class is often used for a "quick change" leader set up where you have all of your class to bite sections pre-tied to flies in a stretcher. Simply disconnect from the double surgeons at the butt to class and you can put on another fly/leader. Really comes down to preference. I prefer the blood knot connections which are not as bulky as the bimini and huffnagle


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## permitchaser

I tied up a leader for my 13 wt. Last night. 5 turn nail to fly line with 50 lb. Then blood knot to 40 then 30 then 20 class. I intend to attach the bite with an Albright


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## mro

Back in the day when I lived in Florida I equipped my 10w 40/30/20/bite.
I'll probably be accused of hearsay but on the 100# bite I'd tie an overhand knot leaving it slightly loose. Stick the 20 threw the knot and tie it on the 100 with a nail knot then tighten both knots and trim.


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## flyclimber

I have a complicated knot system. Could use some improvement.

60-40-30(Bimini) Loop to Loop with 20 lb Bimini to Bimini to Slim beauty to 60 lb Bite. 

It does test to 20+ lbs on a non-calibrated spring fish scale.


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## Seymour fish

freeclimber said:


> I have a complicated knot system. Could use some improvement.
> 
> 60-40-30(Bimini) Loop to Loop with 20 lb Bimini to Bimini to Slim beauty to 60 lb Bite.
> 
> It does test to 20+ lbs on a non-calibrated spring fish scale.


Had loops fail once on a big poon. Have tied everything direct since with no failures. No interest in IGFA, so longer shock allows plenty quick enough fly changes


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## Flatbroke426

I always follow the I.G.F.A. rules to leader specs. Ya just never know when a potential record will present itself.


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## tarponwt

Keep it simple! For your 11-12wt rods... 60lb butt, 40lb mid section, class tippet, bite tippet. Adjust to what you are comfortable throwing. However long your butt section, make the mid section 40-50% of its length. IGFA lengths for class and bite.

Depending on the stiffness of the line you use, try to match the butt section be it fluoro or mono with the stiffness at the end of your Flyline. I personally tarpon fish with Cortland liquid crystal lines and prefer 60lb Seaguar blue label fluoro butt and 40lb Seaguar blue label fluoro mid sections. Hard mason class and Cortland fluorocarbon bite. Done.


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## Backwater

tarponwt said:


> Keep it simple! For your 11-12wt rods... 60lb butt, 40lb mid section, class tippet, bite tippet. Adjust to what you are comfortable throwing. However long your butt section, make the mid section 40-50% of its length. IGFA lengths for class and bite.
> 
> Depending on the stiffness of the line you use, try to match the butt section be it fluoro or mono with the stiffness at the end of your Flyline. I personally tarpon fish with Cortland liquid crystal lines and prefer 60lb Seaguar blue label fluoro butt and 40lb Seaguar blue label fluoro mid sections. Hard mason class and Cortland fluorocarbon bite. Done.


With all due respect (I can tell you're a player), your mid section 40 fluoro will hinge at the mason class tippet, unless you are using 20lb mason as your class tippet. Also no shock absorber at the boat. Why not go fluorocarbon (FC) all the way thru your rig except your class tippet? Why not carry the FC all the way from fly line to fly. It will all sink at the same rate, plus I've had more knot breakage at the class tippet with mason than with FC. Also FC is more stealthy and more abrasion resistant and if you are wanting IGFA rated FC, it's out there. The only thing is you will have to make at least one more step down and throw in a short piece of 30lb FC at the end of your butt section, before you connect your tippet. That will funnel the energy properly thru the taper, from fly line to fly and help get that thing to unroll out dead straight out without hooking, bouncing back or piling up.

Again, a big bimini at that connection (30lb to tippet) at least will help protect the tippet at the boat (hate those head shakes!). 

I do like that you mention the stiffness of the 1st leg of the butt material vs the stiffness of the tip of the flyline. I too like them to bend at the same rate and will watch for that, to help avoid hinging. I may have mentioned it somewhere in this thread or the connecting threads.

Do I know you?


----------



## slewis

Backwater said:


> With all due respect (I can tell you are a player), your mid section 40 fluoro will hinge at the mason class tippet, unless you are using 20lb mason as your class tippet. Also no shock absorber at the boat. Why not go fluorocarbon (FC) all the way thru your rig except your class tippet? Why not carry the FC all the way from fly line to fly. It will all sink at the same rate, plus I've had more knot breakage at the class tippet with mason than with FC. Also FC is more stealthy and more abrasion resistant and if you are wanting IGFA rated FC, it's out there. The only thing is you will have to make at least one more step down and throw in a short piece of 30lb FC at the end of your butt section, before you connect your tippet. That will funnel the energy properly thru the taper, from fly line to fly and help get that thing to unroll out dead straight out without hooking, bouncing back or piling up.
> 
> Again, a big bimini at that connection (30 to tippet) at least will help protect the tippet at the boat (hate those head shakes!).
> 
> I do like that you mention the stiffness of the 1st leg of the butt material vs the stiffness of the tip of the flyline. I too like them to bend at the same rate and will watch for that, to help avoid hinging. I may have mentioned it somewhere in this thread or the connecting threads.
> 
> Do I know you?


Thats Honson.

I primarily used Honsons exact formula all last season with solid results. Fought a couple large fish without breakage or knots pulling, and flies would lay out easily even throwing into the wind. All knots were blood and improved blood. Yes its more convenient to just slap on a new class/bite with a bimini loop, but I figured having a handful built butt to bite and changing out when needed was just as easy.

p.s. Where the hell you been, Ted.


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## Mike Geer

If you do not care about a record the easiest tarpon leader and one used quite often in the Keys is a 60 butt section to straight 40.
An alternative that I use a lot is 60 butt, 30,60.
Most of the tarpon records are very difficult to catch, so it is not important for me to use IGFA regs. I do use IGFA if I am trying to break the 3 kg record.
Keep it simple unless you want to catch a record.

Mike


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## sidelock

Mike Geer said:


> If you do not care about a record the easiest tarpon leader and one used quite often in the Keys is a 60 butt section to straight 40.
> An alternative that I use a lot is 60 butt, 30,60.
> Most of the tarpon records are very difficult to catch, so it is not important for me to use IGFA regs. I do use IGFA if I am trying to break the 3 kg record.
> Keep it simple unless you want to catch a record.
> 
> Mike


Do you know the breaking strenght of the flyline you use when you tie a 60/40 leader set up ?


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## fishnsurf

sidelock said:


> Do you know the breaking strenght of the flyline you use when you tie a 60/40 leader set up ?





Mike Geer said:


> If you do not care about a record the easiest tarpon leader and one used quite often in the Keys is a 60 butt section to straight 40.
> An alternative that I use a lot is 60 butt, 30,60.
> Most of the tarpon records are very difficult to catch, so it is not important for me to use IGFA regs. I do use IGFA if I am trying to break the 3 kg record.
> Keep it simple unless you want to catch a record.
> 
> Mike


THIS. I've been using simple systems like this for quite some time for everything but bonefish/trout. 

The majority of my fishing is for snook and tarpon. I Albright the 60 to the fly line (Took me a while to execute this correctly, it's a bit harder than doing it with two mono sections), then taper to 40 and then 20 or 30 with snook or dock light fishing setups. 

For tarpon, i usually just taper to 50 or 40. Two 4 or 5 foot sections makes your leader, and it rolls out quite nicely. Since I'm also not shooting for records, this has made things much simpler when re-rigging on the boat etc. 

I saw the question come up above, "do you know the breaking strength of your fly line".. I'll tell you I've gotten a good number of flys stuck and it almost always breaks at the knot at the fly, or a knot in the leader. I've never had the fly line break. And if it does, I probably needed new fly line anyway.


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## bryson

I'd think an easy "fuse" for heavy leaders would be a thin-wire hook.

I like the idea of fewer knots in my leader system (for lower visibility and fewer points of failure), but also don't want to risk having a fish break me off at my backing, leaving it to drag around an entire fly line. In my mind, I think that a good option is one of the leaders @Mike Geer suggested, with a hook that will straighten or break before the fly line or backing does.

Although, I've never had to really pull hard on any fly-caught fish before, so this could definitely be flawed logic.


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## tailwalk

What's the breaking strength of the flesh on your finger with a line wrapped around it? Incorporating a fuse isn't all about records.


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## Mike Geer

sidelock said:


> Do you know the breaking strenght of the flyline you use when you tie a 60/40 leader set up ?


10-12 wt flylines generally have a breaking strength of about 50 lbs, but this is really not that important. Most people never put more than 5-7 lbs of preassure on a Tarpon, and I never put a ton of pressure on them unless I have the flyline on the reel (the fish is within 60 feet). With a 12 wt I can put about 15 lbs. of pressure, with a 10 wt about 10 lbs. A loop knot in 40 lbs has a breaking strength of about 24 lbs; most people never pull that hard. I have never lost a flyline because I was pulling too hard, only when a fish cuts my backing on obstruction or against it’s body. Thiswould have happened no matter the tippet strength. Do not pull real hard unless you have several raps of flyline on your reel. I am just rambling, but I hope you get the picture.
The 40 or 30 give you protection from abrasion, but the high breaking strength has never been an issue.

Mike


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## LowHydrogen

tailwalk said:


> What's the breaking strength of the flesh on your finger with a line wrapped around it? Incorporating a fuse isn't all about records.


Can't comment on a finger but fly line around a thumb with 20# class and good knots is strong enough to scare you for about .7 seconds. Still think I'd have rather had the fish, I don't use the top half of that left thumb for much anyway...


----------



## tailwalk

LowHydrogen said:


> Can't comment on a finger but fly line around a thumb with 20# class and good knots is strong enough to scare you for about .7 seconds. Still think I'd have rather had the fish, I don't use the top half of that left thumb for much anyway...


fair enough


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## fishnsurf

bryson said:


> I'd think an easy "fuse" for heavy leaders would be a thin-wire hook.
> 
> I like the idea of fewer knots in my leader system (for lower visibility and fewer points of failure), but also don't want to risk having a fish break me off at my backing, leaving it to drag around an entire fly line. In my mind, I think that a good option is one of the leaders @Mike Geer suggested, with a hook that will straighten or break before the fly line or backing does.
> 
> Although, I've never had to really pull hard on any fly-caught fish before, so this could definitely be flawed logic.





Mike Geer said:


> 10-12 wt flylines generally have a breaking strength of about 50 lbs, but this is really not that important. Most people never put more than 5-7 lbs of preassure on a Tarpon, and I never put a ton of pressure on them unless I have the flyline on the reel (the fish is within 60 feet). With a 12 wt I can put about 15 lbs. of pressure, with a 10 wt about 10 lbs. A loop knot in 40 lbs has a breaking strength of about 24 lbs; most people never pull that hard. I have never lost a flyline because I was pulling too hard, only when a fish cuts my backing on obstruction or against it’s body. Thiswould have happened no matter the tippet strength. Do not pull real hard unless you have several raps of flyline on your reel. I am just rambling, but I hope you get the picture.
> The 40 or 30 give you protection from abrasion, but the high breaking strength has never been an issue.
> 
> Mike



Nailed it. (for me at least!)

You can do a million knots and have 38 sections of leader if it makes you happy and you feel like you're being productive. OR, you can just keep it simple. There's no "right" answer here, and everyone will do what feels right to them. I've found in my case I like no loops or the complications of many connections. So this system works well for me and leaves me with the brain capacity to focus on technique and finding fish


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## Seymour fish

fishnsurf said:


> Nailed it. (for me at least!)
> 
> You can do a million knots and have 38 sections of leader if it makes you happy and you feel like you're being productive. OR, you can just keep it simple. There's no "right" answer here, and everyone will do what feels right to them. I've found in my case I like no loops or the complications of many connections. So this system works well for me and leaves me with the brain capacity to focus on technique and finding fish


No Loops!!! Agree 100 %


----------



## Backwater

I don't use perfection loops with tarpon rigs. For me, like I mentioned in previous replies in this thread, I use Steve Huff's "Double Figure 8 Loop knot" on the Butt section to fly line (tag points to tippet). On the end of the butt section, it's a "non-slip mono loop knot" on the 30lb (again, tag points to the fly). On the tippet, the butt section side of the tippet, there are 2 lines in the loop on the tippet side. In other words, there are 2 tippet loops connecting to the butt section (if you know how to connect a bimini properly). In other words, with a bimini, you are left with a very long loop. So that loop is tied shorter into a dbl loop where it connects to the butt section of the leader. Here you can get away with a 3 turn surgeon's loop knot or dbl figure 8 (both tags will point to the fly). Then Alberto knot the business end of your long 30"+ tippet to your FC shock/bite leader and then 2 turn non-slip mono loop knot (aka Haas Knot) to the fly (also tag points to the fly. Again, all tags are pointing to the fly to keep slip and weeds from catching on the tag ends of the loop knots. Also, all loop knots are stronger than your tippet.

As far as as keeping it simple, a 3-step Butt section, like I mention on the 1st page of this thread, is still a simple, aggressive leader, yet without hinging and a proper transfer of energy with somewhat of a decent presentation, especially with the longer tippet. You have the built in fuse. You have the built in shock absorber, you have a leader that transfers the energy properly so that the fly lays out straight at the end of your leader system and not hooked somewhere to the right of left of the fly line of lagging behind (got cast your leaders on the lawn and walk out and see how they lay out). You also have your built-in presentation so the fly doesn't smack the water like homeboys rigs do. If you are throwing to dumb keys tarpon or in open water on a rough day, smacking the water is not the end of the world and you can get away with it. But up here on the Gulf Coast where I do most of my tarpon fishing, on either dead calm, gin clear shallow water days on the outside or laid up single or double fish up in the back country, smacking the water with your fly line and fly will turn the fish off and even spook them and you'll wonder why those fish are not looking at your fly.

Also you guys that like the homeboy rig (or even Mike Geer's 60/40 rig), and tippets without Bimini's, you haven't had enough people in your boat over the years with broken $600-900 rods due to the fish doing something crazy at the boat (too many things to list), or had fly line wrapped around the reel or guides, or huge knots in the fly line, or fly line wrapping around your wrist, etc., or had fly lines broken. Or you haven't released fish by breaking them off, or breaking them off due to a hammerhead being on their ass. Also, you just haven't had picky fish who sees this thick homeboy rig in gin clear water and it spooks or turns off on the fly due to seeing and evaluation it (the homeboy rig). That's where I see many people shrug their shoulders and say...."they must not be eating today!" That's a funny statement for a fish that is an eating machine and your fly is just like popcorn or potato chips to us. They just don't like how you are serving it and at least up here where I fish, they get smart, see something odd and unnatural about it and turn off to it. Not saying what I use is natural, but maybe more stealthy and not noticed as much.

But hey, to each, their own. 

Ted Haas


----------



## sidelock

Going over some older threads I came across a post titled "Loop Knots" with a link that shows two separate videos on how to tie a Lefty's non slip-loop, one by Salt Strong and the other by Tight Lines. I tried to quote the post with the videos but it wouldn't allow me to because it was too long. The knot is finished differently in one video from the other, which one is wrong ?


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## TheAdamsProject

@sidelock this is the way I was taught and have been using it for a very long time and been solid with mono or fluro.


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## sidelock

nativejax said:


> @sidelock this is the way I was taught and have been using it for a very long time and been solid with mono or fluro.


That's how I'v always tied mine also but the way its illustrated in the Salt Strong video, the tag end is incorrectly inserted in both loops. That's the problem with social media, there is just as much if not more misleading information as there is useful information.


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## bryson

I do the knot @nativejax posted for most anything say 30# or less.  Anything above that and I'm doing the Steve Huff double figure 8 knot.


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## TheAdamsProject

sidelock said:


> That's how I'v always tied mine also but the way its illustrated in the Salt Strong video, the tag end is incorrectly inserted in both loops. That's the problem with social media, there is just as much if not more misleading information as there is useful information.


I would never, ever, listen to anything Salt Strong has to say and you are right, the amount of bad or misleading info on social media is staggering


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## TheAdamsProject

bryson said:


> I do the knot @nativejax posted for most anything say 30# or less. Anything above that and I'm doing the Steve Huff double figure 8 knot.


Agree.


----------



## Finn Maccumhail

Backwater said:


> Also you guys that like the homeboy rig (or even Mike Geer's 60/40 rig), and tippets without Bimini's, you haven't had enough people in your boat over the years with broken $600-900 rods due to the fish doing something crazy at the boat (too many things to list)...


I'd just like to point out that even with a 20# class or below you can still bust expensive rods on tarpon.

I used to do the "homeboy" leaders until I fished with a couple Keys guides who were serious about their IGFA leaders. The reasons vary but both pointed to the ability to break off a fish if necessary and the respect for the sport & fish. Even still I've busted a couple rods on tarpon but in reality both were my fault.

The first was a Scott Tidal 10wt down in Key West on 16# class. Somehow the first ferrule above the handle had gotten sort of loose while fighting about a 70# fish. We got her alongside the boat and she dove for the bottom before we could grab her and the rod couldn't flex properly through the ferrule so it busted. Then as my guide was trying to pull up the fish by the leader it snapped too. But we had the leader so it counts in my book.

The second was last summer in the Panhandle fishing 20# class. I had a big, old hammerknocker that went about 140 on and it just wouldn't quit. We had the leader inside the rod 2-3 times and every time we tried to grab her she'd power away. Finally after about close to 30 minutes I was physically whipped and we had her by the boat and went to grab her. She tried to dive and I figured "fuck this, I'm gonna get this bitch's head up whether she likes it or not" and SNAP, my Hardy ProAxis 12wt busted and a nanosecond later so did the leader. Oh well, that's what warranties are for and Hardy made good.

These days my tarpon leader on my 12wt runs like this:
fly line-->nail knot to a 60# flouro butt section-->blood knot to a 40# flouro section-->blood knot to 20# class (Hard Mason)-->slim beauty to a 60-80# flouro bite tippet

On my 10wt I take out one of the butt sections and do a 1-part butt section with a 40# butt-->20# class-->40-50# flouro

And, knock-on-wood, but I've yet to have a knot fail me with this system.


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## Backwater

Finn Maccumhail said:


> I'd just like to point out that even with a 20# class or below you can still bust expensive rods on tarpon.
> 
> I used to do the "homeboy" leaders until I fished with a couple Keys guides who were serious about their IGFA leaders. The reasons vary but both pointed to the ability to break off a fish if necessary and the respect for the sport & fish. Even still I've busted a couple rods on tarpon but in reality both were my fault.
> 
> The first was a Scott Tidal 10wt down in Key West on 16# class. Somehow the first ferrule above the handle had gotten sort of loose while fighting about a 70# fish. We got her alongside the boat and she dove for the bottom before we could grab her and the rod couldn't flex properly through the ferrule so it busted. Then as my guide was trying to pull up the fish by the leader it snapped too. But we had the leader so it counts in my book.
> 
> The second was last summer in the Panhandle fishing 20# class. I had a big, old hammerknocker that went about 140 on and it just wouldn't quit. We had the leader inside the rod 2-3 times and every time we tried to grab her she'd power away. Finally after about close to 30 minutes I was physically whipped and we had her by the boat and went to grab her. She tried to dive and I figured "fuck this, I'm gonna get this bitch's head up whether she likes it or not" and SNAP, my Hardy ProAxis 12wt busted and a nanosecond later so did the leader. Oh well, that's what warranties are for and Hardy made good.
> 
> These days my tarpon leader on my 12wt runs like this:
> fly line-->nail knot to a 60# flouro butt section-->blood knot to a 40# flouro section-->blood knot to 20# class (Hard Mason)-->slim beauty to a 60-80# flouro bite tippet
> 
> On my 10wt I take out one of the butt sections and do a 1-part butt section with a 40# butt-->20# class-->40-50# flouro
> 
> And, knock-on-wood, but I've yet to have a knot fail me with this system.


I've purposely busted off fish for various reasons, including sharks on their tail. Nothing worse than to see a big female poon get eaten at the boat and I refuse to let that happen. So it's tough enough to even break off 20lb, let alone trying to break off 40-60lb rigs.

As far as your rig goes. I just don't use Mason for any class tippet. The stuff is overly thick and breaks easily (and I believe it breaks under what it's rated). If I need a floating type butt section of the leader, then yes, I'll use mason for that and prepare based on the diameter of the material. Then I'll use fluorocarbon for the tippet and shock/bite.

In your leader system, you have floating fly line, connecting to a sinking butt section to a floating tippet and a sinking shock/bite (i.e. FC sinks, mason floats). That can throw off the tracking of your fly and just that very thing can turn fish off to your fly. Try instead, going to a FC tippet. Then at lease the fly will track straight horizontally. Of course, there are many combinations to use, but using the right ones for the right situation is the key.

In your system, it should lay out nicely since the 20lb mason has the same diameter as 30lb FC. So your rig diameter will flow like this.... 60 to 40 to 30 and then the bite leader. The transfer of energy from your fly line should flow fairly evenly to the fly. But if you did what I explained above, (60/40/20 FC), then the 20lb FC will hinge at the 40lb FC because the dia of the 40 will be twice that of the 20lb FC and will cause that point to hinge and the fly will loose control on where it will land.. So in that case, it would be best to split the lenght of your 40lb FC piece to 40lb and 30lb, then to the 20lb FC tippet. I'd say like 4ft 60lb FC, then 1.5ft 40lb FC and then 1.5ft of 30lb FC to make up your butt leader, then a 2ft section of 20lb FC tippet
and a 12" piece of FC bite leader, to make up a total of a 10ft leader.


----------



## Seymour fish

Finn Maccumhail said:


> I'd just like to point out that even with a 20# class or below you can still bust expensive rods on tarpon.
> 
> I used to do the "homeboy" leaders until I fished with a couple Keys guides who were serious about their IGFA leaders. The reasons vary but both pointed to the ability to break off a fish if necessary and the respect for the sport & fish. Even still I've busted a couple rods on tarpon but in reality both were my fault.
> 
> The first was a Scott Tidal 10wt down in Key West on 16# class. Somehow the first ferrule above the handle had gotten sort of loose while fighting about a 70# fish. We got her alongside the boat and she dove for the bottom before we could grab her and the rod couldn't flex properly through the ferrule so it busted. Then as my guide was trying to pull up the fish by the leader it snapped too. But we had the leader so it counts in my book.
> 
> The second was last summer in the Panhandle fishing 20# class. I had a big, old hammerknocker that went about 140 on and it just wouldn't quit. We had the leader inside the rod 2-3 times and every time we tried to grab her she'd power away. Finally after about close to 30 minutes I was physically whipped and we had her by the boat and went to grab her. She tried to dive and I figured "fuck this, I'm gonna get this bitch's head up whether she likes it or not" and SNAP, my Hardy ProAxis 12wt busted and a nanosecond later so did the leader. Oh well, that's what warranties are for and Hardy made good.
> 
> These days my tarpon leader on my 12wt runs like this:
> fly line-->nail knot to a 60# flouro butt section-->blood knot to a 40# flouro section-->blood knot to 20# class (Hard Mason)-->slim beauty to a 60-80# flouro bite tippet
> 
> On my 10wt I take out one of the butt sections and do a 1-part butt section with a 40# butt-->20# class-->40-50# flouro
> 
> And, knock-on-wood, but I've yet to have a knot fail me with this system.


Damn good advice here, and love a good story. Here’s one: tarpon-set a 120 around Loggerhead. Sage 12 snapped in two but the fish was well hooked and ran. Buddy said you can’t land one with a busted rod so being from Texas I sad “ watch this”. After a couple hours had her just back on the running line, when she gave a somersault jump which whipped the line across the jagged end of my pole. Cut it. Fish was exhausted and could barely move, yet the cut end of the line started sliding away on the surface. I thought @ if I was 20 yrs younger, I’d dive in and grab the SOB. The end reached that now or never point and damned if I didn’t. Got a nice ball of line in hand, feet well planted on sand in 4’ of water, and declared “I’ve got the SOB now !” She began to revive. Somehow the purchase on the sand was slipping and oh shit it’s getting deeper. Soon could not touch bottom and the sleigh ride was full on. Buddy poled alongside and I gave him the line. Grabbed fly boxes that came floating by and boarded. Buddy tied the line onto his rig and just as he reached to hand it over, she jumped and landed on the leader. So, was it a caught fish, or a caught fisherman ? Would love to try it again, bull sharks be damned


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## LTChip

I use a variety of hand-tied formulas, premade tapered ones when I can get them on sale at STP or just lazy 30lb floro straight on a 9 or 10 wt rig. or 12-20lb on a 6,7,8 wt rig.


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## Nick George

Straight 50 mono, what the majority of the guides use down in islamorada for the ocean, if they’re being super picky (which will probably happen lol) 50 with 3 ft of 30 tippet.


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## LTChip

cost efficiency and they value their time -plus fewer lost fish that way I am guessing


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## Backwater

bryson said:


> I do the knot @nativejax posted for most anything say 30# or less. Anything above that and I'm doing the Steve Huff double figure 8 knot.


My version of that knot (Krey Knot or what is known as the Non-Slip Mono Loop Knot) for bite leader over 20lb, including C to 100lbs, was a little twist I started where I only do 2 turns around the leader and back into the half hitch hole (or over-hand loop), instead of 3 or more turns. The other thing I do is put the tag end back thru the hole on the final 2 turns, but in-between lines going through the hole. This causes the tag to point directly towards the fly instead of pointing out to the side. Then I pull the tag some with the pliers (but not real hard) as I'm cinching hard on the leader to fly with the other hand. The results is the bit of clip-off tag remaining becomes weedless.. Some of my clients started dubbing it as the Haas knot. If cinched down correctly, it doesn't come apart.

This is the best video I've ever found describing the proper way to tie the Non-Slip Mono Loop Knot or what was dubbed the Krey knot, tho Lefty said it wasn't his knot, just that he used it all the time and people referring to it as the Krey knot _("Hey, what was the Krey knot you showed me the other day?"....._).






Pay close attention on how the knot is tied. The one I do for the bite leader only has 2 turns around the running line tho. Also, I feel that the half hitch loop or over hand loop only needs to be tied 3" up the leader to tie it.

When I use just straight tippet for a inshore setup with tippet, I use 3 turns from 16'bs of less. Anything from 10'b or less, I'll do 4 turns for inshore straight tippet to fly (non-tarpon stuff).


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## sotilloa1078

Nick George said:


> Straight 50 mono, what the majority of the guides use down in islamorada for the ocean, if they’re being super picky (which will probably happen lol) 50 with 3 ft of 30 tippet.


I beg to differ.


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## sotilloa1078

There is no place for “homeboy leaders” in this sport. Some may disagree but I stand firm on that.


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## Jason M

I have a couple of different setups. For my 10 and 11wts I run 40 butt to 16lb tippet with a Bimini and furled loop that is then improved blood knot to the 40 or 60 lb flouro bite.

For my 12wts I taper the butt section 60, 50, 40, then class tippet with 16 then to bite.

I used up fish 20 but realized that you can pretty much do what ever you want to a fish with 20. Going down to 16 seemed like a good idea and I may even go back to 12 because I don't care if I break off a fish. We get big fish in Tampa Bay so it's fun to pull hard on them once in a while.


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## Jason M

Looks like this.


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## snookin44

This is a great thread!


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## Codeman120992

Yes. I agree. This site has helped me learn a lot about leaders. Very helpful. Can’t wait to try them out


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## Mike.Lelio

that was a fantastic post of information, very clear and detailed. I have a request though, I would love to see a picture of what the finished leader looks like, specifically the section where the class tippet is connected to the butt section via the Bimini and HuffNagel knot. I understand the description, but I would love to see what the finished product should look like. 

Thanks!
-Mike


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## fatman

Mike.Lelio said:


> that was a fantastic post of information, very clear and detailed. I have a request though, I would love to see a picture of what the finished leader looks like, specifically the section where the class tippet is connected to the butt section via the Bimini and HuffNagel knot. I understand the description, but I would love to see what the finished product should look like.
> 
> Thanks!
> -Mike


The Angling Company: IGFA Tarpon Leader on Vimeo


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## Jason M

Mike.Lelio said:


> that was a fantastic post of information, very clear and detailed. I have a request though, I would love to see a picture of what the finished leader looks like, specifically the section where the class tippet is connected to the butt section via the Bimini and HuffNagel knot. I understand the description, but I would love to see what the finished product should look like.
> 
> Thanks!
> -Mike


Here's a couple. An example with a blood knot and a Huffnagle. The Huffnagle always had that little kick out at the junction of the Bimini and overhand. 

Also a bonus stretcher picture. I made that it college as they were super expensive to buy back then and I needed money to eat. I'm so glad that flouro came along.


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## Jason M

Note. On my blood knots I leave those long until I tie a fly on and straighten it out. Then I trim the tags.


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## flyclimber

Here’s my go to. 20 lb class with Bimini to slim beauty on 40


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## Juan Vega

THX1138 said:


> Someone teach me about Tarpon leaders. Best to buy pre-made or make your own?
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Lou


easy peasy. 4,3,2 and tippet. 4’ of 40, 3’of 30lb, and 20’ of 20’. Add bitr tippet of say 50, 2ft. Good to go.


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## TX_Brad

Juan Vega said:


> easy peasy. 4,3,2 and tippet. 4’ of 40, 3’of 30lb, and 20’ of 20’. Add bitr tippet of say 50, 2ft. Good to go.


27' leader?


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## Juan Vega

TX_Brad said:


> 27' leader?


Hahaha!! Typo, 2’ of 20lb. Tongue twister…


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## kjnengr

TX_Brad said:


> 27' leader?


Some of those tarpon are getting pretty skittish.


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## jay.bush1434

TX_Brad said:


> 27' leader?


Make sure you bring a few of those for next week, just in case...


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## Water Bound

So far this season we’ve had a Homer Rhodes loop in 60 and improved blood 20 hard to 40 fluoro fail on two separate fish! Maddening, but love this chit.

New and improved Current recipe-
50lbs fluoro butt via Albright to fly line, 40 fluoro to butt via blood, 20lbs hard to mid and 50/60 bite via FG’s on both ends, fly to bite via huff figure 8


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## bryson

Water Bound said:


> So far this season we’ve had a Homer Rhodes loop in 60 and improved blood 20 hard to 40 fluoro fail on two separate fish! Maddening, but love this chit.
> 
> New and improved Current recipe-
> 50lbs fluoro butt via Albright to fly line, 40 fluoro to butt via blood, 20lbs hard to mid and 50/60 bite via FG’s on both ends, fly to bite via huff figure 8


I love the double figure 8 knot in heavier stuff. I haven't tested it on any bruisers, but I like how it pulls down straight. Haven't tried an FG on a mono/mono connection, but sounds interesting. I've been using improved blood knots for big jumps in diameter, or triple surgeons when tying on the water. Still haven't tested much on anything other than a bench, though.


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## Jason M

Water Bound said:


> So far this season we’ve had a Homer Rhodes loop in 60 and improved blood 20 hard to 40 fluoro fail on two separate fish! Maddening, but love this chit.
> 
> New and improved Current recipe-
> 50lbs fluoro butt via Albright to fly line, 40 fluoro to butt via blood, 20lbs hard to mid and 50/60 bite via FG’s on both ends, fly to bite via huff figure 8


The only thing I don't like is that Albright in the 50 to fly line.


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## Water Bound

I use the Albright that Andy Mill shows on his podcast. 7 wraps, with the first 3 worked down over the fly line and onto the butt as you tighten it down.



Jason M said:


> The only thing I don't like is that Albright in the 50 to fly line.


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## Beach Snook

Great info on this one - thanks Boys!


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## SupergrandslamIII

I highly recommend tying your own I use mason #12 or#16 as my class I begin with a Bimini then use a improved blood knot to attach the 50 or 60 lb shock tippet hope this helps


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## eeu

So, I guess one piece of 30 pound tippet isn't sufficient?


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## LTChip

I am all for straight 20, 25, or 30lb floro - these have no issues with knots, and work for 90% of tarpon and small enough to allow for a snook here or there.


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## WW Jones

Backwater said:


> So Lou, do you know what size fish or size rods you will be fishing with. Moreover, it really depends on what size fly line and what type of flyline, weather it be a floating line, sink tip or sinking line. of course, what size fish you are targeting and what flies will be thrown to them.
> 
> If it's small micro tarpon, a 6wt to 8wt will work. Up to juvenal tarpon size up to 10 and even up to 20lbs, ... more like 7-9wt. Then little poons from... say 20lbs up to 30-40lbs, a 9wt-10wt is ideal. With those fish, you can just use a standard inshore leader system and nix the bimini.
> 
> Going 30lbs to 60lbs a 10wt is ideal. Shallow water Keys tarpon, fishing on the shallow grass flats or Gulf coast smaller beach tarpon from 50 -120, an 11wt is ideal. Any more deeper water fish near passes, in deeper beaches, away from the shallows where you have to do some serious lifting, or in an area where the fish are grown, then I always recommend a 12wt. This is where you really need a tarpon leader system, from these 10wt size fish and up.
> 
> So here is the quick summary from the threads that you read above where you are fishing for those 10wt size fish or larger. The following, the system I'm going to give you is for 11wt-12wt flylines and fish. If using a 10wt, you can throttle the 1st leg size back by 10lb test. So here is my "*Ted Haas K.I.S.S. tarpon leader system*."
> 
> Remember, Mason, hard mason, hard mono, in this description is one in the same. its pretty inexpensive and easily gotten from your local fly shop or Cabelas/BPS.
> 
> *For floating leaders, mason or hard mono butt sections of the leader.*
> 
> Loop to loop connection from butt leader to fly line. So the 1st leg will start out with a Steve Huff double figure 8 loop knot. This loops tracks completely straight, one of the strongest loop knot I know of, but somewhat bulky, so I want it as far away from the fish as possible. However, you notice the tag points back to the fly, thereby avoiding grass and slime.
> 
> *40/30/20 HM.*
> 
> The leg lengths below are what you want to end up with, so leave some extra length to tie with or leave it still on the spool, then just cut off some extra to tie the other end with.
> 
> *1st leg - 4ft of 40lb HM* (Hard Mason), to the *2nd leg of 2ft of 30lb HM*. This connection gets a blood knot, where the 40lb has 3 turns and the 30lb has 4 turns in it. Wet with spit and really cinch down tight. So that 2nd leg gets a blood knot to the *3rd leg of 1.5ft of 20lb HM*. The 30lb gets 4 turns on the blood knot and the 20lb gets 5 turns. Again, fully and completely cinch those well lubed up (with spit) knots, down good. Trim tags ends flush at the knot. The blood knots will end up being as about as small as it can get and still hold. You'll notice blood knot sizes when it get's run in and out of your snake guides, so best to leave the whole leader out of the tip top guide.
> 
> At the end of the 3rd leg of 20lb mason, tie in a "Non-Slip mono loop knot, or Lefty Krey loop knot (one in the same) or a Haas loop knot (same but one less turn). Notice that those tag ends will continue pointing towards the fly, thereby (again) reducing fouling from weeds or slim. Those tags on both loop knots can be clipped back about 1/8" from the knot, for a little insurance purposes (especially if cinched down completely).
> 
> So there you have it! That's the butt section of the leader. If you are wanting to use *mono instead of mason*, then use the size/pound test of the following using FC recipe as the example since the material diameter is about the same as FC.
> 
> *Using Fluorocarbon (FC) as the butt section of a tarpon leader for bub surface or sinking fly lines and flies.*
> 
> All leg lengths and knots will be exactly the same as the Mason recipe above. Pound test changes though.
> 
> *60/40/30 FC.*
> 
> 
> Alternative Butt leaders
> 
> On windy days, and/or with really bushy flies or really heavy flies for both mono, mason or FC, use 5ft as the 1st leg, then 1.5ft in length for the 2nd leg and finally 1-1.5ft on the 3rd leg.
> 
> 
> *Tippet and bite leader*
> 
> To start out, I always use FC tippets, no matter what the butt section is made of. If the fly line is floating and the butt section floats, as well as your floating fly and you want everything to float, a small thin piece of FC will be held up. Otherwise, most big tarpon flies are not true flotation, but can ride high, within inches from the surface. So FC wouldn't hurt that process, be abrasion resistant and stealthy.
> 
> You'll find that most tarpon tourneys inthe Keys are using 16lb tippets. But they are using mason for that. You'll find that 16lb mason and 20lb FC is about the same diameter, especially with Seaguar. But some smaller FC like Yozuri is thinner yet, but still ok to use since it's stiff enough
> 
> For me, with regular tarpon fly angling, I use 20lb FC tippet, unless I need ultra stealth or trying to seek records, which I'm not these days. So 20 is still stealthy but enough to pour on the juice to a hot fish.
> 
> Tho IGFA says a minimum of 15", there is no max. However it can be too long to properly turn over. I like my fly as far away from my flyline and bimini and still turn over good. So I'm normally going with a 24-30" FC tippet
> 
> Note - On very windy days with heavy or bushy flies, then I'll go down to a 18"-24" tippet.
> 
> So I buy those larger arbor spools of FC (25yrds to 30meters), which keeps the memory out of the line.
> 
> On the butt end side of the tippet, I'll tie in a 30-40 turn "magnum" bimini with a huffnagel and a loop knot in the loop (the loop knot has 2 legs or lines). That loop knot is a 3 turn surgeons loop. The loop is close to the bimini and tags cut close. One drop of super glue on the surgeons loop knot and one drop on the huffnagel ONLY, not on the bimini twist itself.
> 
> So basically a 2ft tippet is normal for me, from bimini to bite leader. If and only if the winds are low, my casting is spot-on and the fish are weary, I might go as long as a 3ft tippet. But watch to make sure the fly is fully unrolling out there and not slapping the water or hinging on you.
> 
> On the business end of the tippet, I'll use an "Alberto knot" with tag ends clipped close.
> 
> *Bite leaders* can be from 40lb to 80lb. I've even used 100lb in dark dirty water or at night in the dark (not by lights). But normally for the bigger fish during daylight hours, I'm using 60lb. I like really clear FC for this and I pre-stretch my leader before I cut them. We can talk later how I do this, but you can pre-stretch it, cut it to 2ft lenghts and store it in small tubes to keep it straight and keep the memory out of it.
> 
> Again, IGFA says a maximum of 12" from knot to fly. But that's for record setting. Personally, I use it from 12-18", depending on what I'm doing. If you are going to be riffling thru flies 1st thing in the morning, trying to see what they will eat, by clipping off flies and tying on multiple times, then I'll start out with 18" and then replace it when it get's down to about 8". That's also where the slightly longer tippet comes in handy. On a side note, I've landed poons where I was in a hurry to change out the bite leader and clipped and re-tied it down to a 6" piece of bite leader.
> 
> If you are using a tarpon fly stretcher box to keep them pre-rigged and straighten, then 12" measured will work, in case you land an eye-opening fish that you want to get checked out.
> 
> *Loop knot to the fly - *
> 
> For me, it's the Haas loop knot since the larger diameter material will do well with less turns (basically a 2 turn non-slip mono loop knot). Otherwise, a 3 turn Non-Slip Mono loop or Lefty Krey Loop knot (same thing) will work too and have a little extra insurance there. Again, the tag is swept back and faces the fly, avoiding weeds and slime.
> 
> And that's it! This all seams complicated, but once you get it figured out, it's pretty easy to tie up.
> 
> Good luck and let me know how you do.
> 
> Ted Haas


Wow thank you all good info. Good to know! Always learn something!


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## Earle Waters

THX1138 said:


> Someone teach me about Tarpon leaders. Best to buy pre-made or make your own?
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Lou


I would love to help 🤗 practical systems her IGFA leaders and would you like on the boat instructions or face time👀


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## Líneas tensas

THX1138 said:


> Someone teach me about Tarpon leaders. Best to buy pre-made or make your own?
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Lou


Get this book.


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