# GS Backing to Welded Loop?



## Bonecracker (Mar 29, 2007)

Wanted to know your thoughts on attaching gel spun (say 50-65lb braid) to a welded loop. I have always done a short 12 wrap Bimini (vs 20 wrap) and then doubled the loop with a Surgeons Knot! Anything better??


----------



## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

I do something very similar with a few differences. My bimini twist for braid is a 40 turn....I then make that Surgeon's loop (so there's a double strand making contact with each side of the welded loop) but make a point of making the surgeon's loop big enough to pass the fly reel through (so that quickly changing fly lines on the water only involves removing the reel to un-loop then re-loop with the new line (instead of having to cut, then re-tie the bimini and looped end on the backing each time we need to change lines...).


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

lemaymiami said:


> I do something very similar with a few differences. My bimini twist for braid is a 40 turn....I then make that Surgeon's loop (so there's a double strand making contact with each side of the welded loop) but make a point of making the surgeon's loop big enough to pass the fly reel through (so that quickly changing fly lines on the water only involves removing the reel to un-loop then re-loop with the new line (instead of having to cut, then re-tie the bimini and looped end on the backing each time we need to change lines...).


X2!


----------



## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

Backwater said:


> X2!


Same here as Capt lemay and backwater, when is use gsp instead of Dacron.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

texasag07 said:


> Same here as Capt lemay and backwater, when is use gsp instead of Dacron.


But a disclaimer..... I'm not a fan of gel spun!


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

You could tie in a small section of 80 lb hollow core and just do your normal loop connection to the welded loop, it would be a lot less bulky of a connection and the 80 lb hollow core won't cut into the welded loop.


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Here you go....I do it this way on all my fly lines now.

http://www.microskiff.com/threads/heres-how-to-attach-gsp-to-fly-line.21320/#post-158891


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

ifsteve said:


> Here you go....I do it this way on all my fly lines now.
> 
> http://www.microskiff.com/threads/heres-how-to-attach-gsp-to-fly-line.21320/#post-158891


I have messed around with this method in the past not knowing other people were using it. The issue I always ran into was covering the dacron ends to keep them from sliding and bunching up. I had done a whip finish but now I'm thinking I did it wrong.


----------



## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

@lemaymiami - not following the surgeon's loop addition to the bimini, mainly because I do something similar, but different at the end.

I tie a normal bimini - 30 to 40 turn, finish it off normally. The trick on getting it not to slip is to make sure your overhands on both sides are tight, then the final knot seats down nice and tight.

But I keep a single strand of the backing as the loop - it's big enough to pass the reel through it, but I pass the reel through twice. That creates a double loop to welded loop connection which distributes the backing more evenly across the welded loop.

Here it is before pulling tight:









And after:


----------



## Bonecracker (Mar 29, 2007)

BTW folks, I remember a specific article in a fishing magazine a few years back by a guy that had access to the IFGA's testing equipment and he did alot of testing on braid and knots. He found out that a shorter Bimini (8-10 wraps) was much stronger than the 20+ wrap Bimini! Anybody every heard this before??


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

coconutgroves said:


>


Yea that is a good idea to get a little more holding strength and distribute the area longer where the gsp touches the flyline loop. But then again, what Bob LeMay and I mentioned, you are essentially doing the same thing with a double loop and then only needing to pass the reel thru once, which can save time fumbling around with it on the water where you are staring at fish and need to get your fly back out to them as soon as possible.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Bonecracker said:


> BTW folks, I remember a specific article in a fishing magazine a few years back by a guy that had access to the IFGA's testing equipment and he did alot of testing on braid and knots. He found out that a shorter Bimini (8-10 wraps) was much stronger than the 20+ wrap Bimini! Anybody every heard this before??


It's sort of like trying to tie a 12 turn albright knot vs a 6 turn albright. It's easier to get a 6 turn albright fully and completely cinched down and therefore bites into the leader vs the 12 turn, which, when not fully cinched down will slip off the leader when sudden impact type pressure is applied.

But Bonecracker, the Bimini has two jobs. One is a knot that has lots of area to hold onto itself. The added wraps doesn't necessary make the knot stronger, but instead expands when pulled and therefore acts like a shock absorber. That's why I like to do a 30-40 turn Bimini (I call it the Magnum Bimini) and will give just enough bounce to help keep things from breaking.



Hey Btw, Bonecracker, PM me so I can send you these "Drum Crab Candy!" If not, I'm gonna give them to someone else! LOL


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Tying a bimini in gsp is s waste of time. There is so little stretch in gsp or braid that the advantage of a bimini is lost. And a triple surgeons is so much easier to tie and in fact as strong or stronger than a bimini. And as an earlier poster said, if using a bimini the testing has shown that few turns (like 12) is better.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> Tying a bimini in gsp is s waste of time. There is so little stretch in gsp or braid that the advantage of a bimini is lost. And a triple surgeons is so much easier to tie and in fact as strong or stronger than a bimini. And as an earlier poster said, if using a bimini the testing has shown that few turns (like 12) is better.


There is just enough flex in a long bimini to help absorb the shock it takes to impact break a knot, even in braid. But the flyline itself will be your main shock absorber. There is no way I can see a triple surgeons knot being stronger than a 30-40 turn bimini with a huffnagel tied at the end and then doubling the long loop to make a smaller loop (but big enough to pass a reel thru) and then with that dbl line, tie a double surgeons knot (a.k.a a dbl dbl surgeons loop knot). I just don't see that happening My uncle taught me how to tie a bimini properly when I was 15 and I learned that backing to flyline setup from Stu Apte when I was still in my 20's. I've never had that setup fail me with who knows how many big fish I've caught over the years. But again, I'm using braided backing, not gsp or super braids.


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Ted, there is certainly nothing wrong with a bimini. I wish I could remember where the article was detailing the breaking strength of a triple surgeons vs a bimini in gsp. It was from a pretty well known saltwater angler. I want to say Rick Murphy but don't quote me on that. Pretty sure it was in the old Fly Fishing in Saltwater magazine.

I know lots of guys who use braid or gsp for backing and just loop it directly to the flyline loop. Probably will never have a problem with that. Most fish fights aren't so long as that ever to be an issue. But the tuna guys convinced me that a sleeve is a better approach so that's what I do. And since the backing never needs to be replaced short of busting it off (I haven't ever had that problem) its no big deal to do the sleeve once and forget about it.


----------



## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

At times the reasons for various line connections get lost in all that's subsequently written about them... The original reason for a Bimini Twist is that it's rope-making technique and as a result is just as strong as the line itself (where most knots are never as strong as the line itself). Years and years ago the fishing club I belonged to had a big, heavy, very precise tensile strength meter and any club member could test their new lines (as purchased in a time when the labels on line spools rarely told the truth) as well as knots tied with them. In that era many of us were obsessed with setting world records and we needed very accurate line testing to be sure we were in the right line class before going to the trouble of submitting a catch for a club record (or that elusive world record...). These days with the advent of super braids, line class world records are a lot less interesting to most anglers. In the interim someone noticed that a Bimini added a tiny bit of "cushion" when it came under pressure - and that's what popular media mentioned about it... Any stretch provided by a bimini is minimal at best -but folks who ought to know better continue to pass on that bit of mis-information....

Do without a bimini if you choose (many anglers do..) but don't think your connections are as strong as they could be with one as your starting point...

By the way the reason for the doubled bimini surgeon's loop isn't for line strength - it's there specifically to keep single strand braid from cutting through the mono or other loop it's connected to.... Braid under pressure will absolutely cut through softer lines unless you do something to eliminate that single line cutting ability that every super braid comes with...


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

lemaymiami said:


> Do without a bimini if you choose (many anglers do..) but don't think your connections are as strong as they could be with one as your starting point...


Correct (maybe) but when you are talking gsp or braid backing any reduction in breaking strength from using a bimini or a triple surgeons or most any knot you care to is irrelevant. If you are using a backing with a rating of 50# (and its likely more than that as most gsp and braid are labeled less than the actual breaking strength) even if its only an 80% connection is still stronger than your leader (and probably your fly line).


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I see no point in a Bimini in 50lb gsp. If you break the gsp on a fish with that backing you are going to be way under gunned with your rod and reel.


----------



## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

There are definitely much better choices than gelspun, completely agree there.

While it is expensive, I moved over many of my reels to Hatch backing. My experience with gelspun has been negative - can't tell you how many times I had the line cut through the spool under tension. If it doesn't go back on the reel with extreme pressure, it will cut through itself. You don't want to lose a fish because of that.

In many cases gelspun is used to gain that extra 200' (30 yards) of backing on the reel. But ask yourself, when was the last time you were nearly spooled where only 200' was left on the reel? Now granted, I've seen a marlin on fly and knew we needed every bit of backing on that reel, but that's a different game entirely.


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Don't overlook the advantage you get with braid/gsp on retrieve rate. Its not just about capacity. I haven't had an issue with braid cutting back into itself leading to a fish break off but I know guys that has happened to. The key is to put it on under good tension in the first place. Don't have to worry about it when fighting a fish....if a fish is strong enough to take out much backing then you are retrieving it under plenty of tension.

Of all the stuff out there I have tried or guys I know have tried the winner in most guys opinions is Jerry Brown hollow braid.....but its dang pricey. But then Hatch isn't cheap!


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> Of all the stuff out there I have tried or guys I know have tried the winner in most guys opinions is Jerry Brown hollow braid.....but its dang pricey. But then Hatch isn't cheap!


That's a subject that brings us back to the hollow core backing thread we recently have about 4 or 5 months ago with el9surf and.... ~thinks~ whats his name that lives down by Marco Island and fishes the 10k ahh... sjim??. ahh... sjm1580, yea, that's right. The guy with all those sweet Islanders! 

el9surf ----> Power Pro Hollow Core

sjm1580 ----> Toro Tamer 60lb Hollow core (still haven't tried that yea but sounds interesting)

I'd like to see a piece of both to see and feel what they look like, including a sample of Jerry Brown and The Hatch stuff. I'd like to see how the feel and compare to the Cortland Micron (which I've always used.).


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Ted the Jerry Brown and Hatch stuff are very soft feeling. And they are pretty proud of that....lol


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

The power pro hollow ace is very soft as well, nothing like the abraisive solid power pro braid. I haven't seen the toro tamer or jerry brown but they are both 16 strand hollow braid, same as the hollow ace. Send me a pm and I will mail you a couple samples backwater. You can do the unbiased review.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

While the hatch and JB / hollow ace are expensive they will easily last the life of the reel if not longer. When I sell reels I keep my backing lol


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

el9surf said:


> While the hatch and JB / hollow ace are expensive they will easily last the life of the reel if not longer. When I sell reels I keep my backing lol


Then you need to buy better reels.....lol


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I upgraded to hatch in a few sizes and an abel 7/8n recently, but the backing came off my old reels. Pretty happy with them so far.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

This might be a good idea. Who out there has kinda of backing?

I pm'ed sjm1580, tho his probably busy fishing the 10k.

el9surf - PP Hollow Ace?

Coconutgroves - Hatch?

Bonecracker and if ifsteve? Variety of gsp?

I have some micron and maybe some Rio backing (maybe even some dacron) and so new braid from Cortland that I don't like.

I have some old flyline that we can test it on.

Not sure if I still have a micrometer. Maybe need some sort of scale to test connection break strength.

It would be cool to get ahold of a scale like what Capt LeMay was refering to in his fly club back in the day.


----------



## BarHopper (May 23, 2016)

Backwater said:


> This might be a good idea. Who out there has kinda of backing?
> 
> I pm'ed sjm1580, tho his probably busy fishing the 10k.
> 
> ...


Really great posts and thread guys - I have been doing the Bimini for a long time, but some of the hints for doubling the loop and minimizing cut into the fly line are great - many thanks!


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I think I have a little left of the hollow ace in 40, 60 and 80


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

I have 65# power pro on all my fly reels. And yes I mean all of them. Even my little 4wt trout reels. I bought a huge bulk spool years ago and just used the last of it this spring when I got my Hatch 7+. I was going to go with Hatch backing but in talking to my buddy who works in the business he suggested the Jerry Brown hollow. I looked all over for it but the only place that had it in stock would have had to ship it overnight to get it to me before I left for Argentina. That was going to just add too much cost to an already expensive product so just used the rest of the power pro. 

Eventually I will likely replace the backing on the reels I use the most with something softer but I just haven't seen the need yet to warrant the spending. It would be nice to have something softer to reduce the chance of getting sliced by a running fish. But, and we have had this discussion before. When a hot fish is running you shouldn't have your fingers on the fly line or backing anyway!


----------



## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

@Backwater - I'm game - let me know and I can send some.

While Hatch is expensive, it is extremely durable and super soft to the touch. It lays down nicely on the reel as well. My only complaint is that it only comes in white, which can discolor under certain conditions.

But investing in good backing allows you to keep it for years like @el9surf said. Great tip - reverse it from one reel to another. Or if it is getting a bit discolored, reverse it on the same reel. This extends the life of the backing.

Look at us geeks - excited about backing. Who is actually fishing? I am fishing Belize in a week - in packing mode now for 3 anglers plus me. I should charge an outfitting fee for my buddies....  Actually, the payoff is watching them land fish. Love it.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> I have 65# power pro on all my fly reels. And yes I mean all of them. Even my little 4wt trout reels. I bought a huge bulk spool years ago and just used the last of it this spring when I got my Hatch 7+. I was going to go with Hatch backing but in talking to my buddy who works in the business he suggested the Jerry Brown hollow. I looked all over for it but the only place that had it in stock would have had to ship it overnight to get it to me before I left for Argentina. That was going to just add too much cost to an already expensive product so just used the rest of the power pro.
> 
> Eventually I will likely replace the backing on the reels I use the most with something softer but I just haven't seen the need yet to warrant the spending. It would be nice to have something softer to reduce the chance of getting sliced by a running fish. But, and we have had this discussion before. When a hot fish is running you shouldn't have your fingers on the fly line or backing anyway!


PP regular green stuff or the Hollow Ace?


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

coconutgroves said:


> @Backwater - I'm game - let me know and I can send some.
> 
> While Hatch is expensive, it is extremely durable and super soft to the touch. It lays down nicely on the reel as well. My only complaint is that it only comes in white, which can discolor under certain conditions.
> 
> ...



Just snook fishing these days  and a landscaping makeover at the house!  and coaching my boys on DIY bass fishing. 

Go get em!!! Turneffe?


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Ted its the yellow version standard stuff. I also have used Tuf XP a lot. About the same as power pro.


----------



## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Backwater said:


> Just snook fishing these days  and a landscaping makeover at the house!  and coaching my boys on DIY bass fishing.
> 
> Go get em!!! Turneffe?


Not Turneffe - they are pricey, plus they are closed until the 14th due to storm damages to their piers. We'll be around the middle cayes, a little south from there.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> Ted its the yellow version standard stuff. I also have used Tuf XP a lot. About the same as power pro.


Steve, I can saw wood with that stuff!  You're really using that for backing?


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Ted when I started using this stuff over 10 years ago there weren't the choices there are now. But I have never cut myself. I have never had a fly line loop get cut. And I have never lost a fish due to the backing. But I have landed fish that I probably would not have had I been using 20 or 30# micron.....I would have been spooled. Fact. Not saltwater. But trout. I have cuaght a number of trout over 10# that I would have had almost zero chance with 20# micron. Using 3X which is as light as I could go and still get bit I needed well over 100 yards of backing or I would have been toast on the first run. 

If I was just spooling up now then I would go with Hatch or Jerry Brown.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> Ted when I started using this stuff over 10 years ago there weren't the choices there are now. But I have never cut myself. I have never had a fly line loop get cut. And I have never lost a fish due to the backing. But I have landed fish that I probably would not have had I been using 20 or 30# micron.....I would have been spooled. Fact. Not saltwater. But trout. I have cuaght a number of trout over 10# that I would have had almost zero chance with 20# micron. Using 3X which is as light as I could go and still get bit I needed well over 100 yards of backing or I would have been toast on the first run.



I can't see where 65lb PP saves any dia. over 20lb micron. Btw, that's not considered gsp. Real gsp is smooth but will still cut the heck out of you. I've seen it being used with clients from other countries that came over to fish with me, 20yrs ago. I saw the problems with it then and I just wouldn't mess with it even today. you really don't need anything more than 20lbs on anything 8wt or less. If you want less diameter, then get the micronite 20lb and have less dia but still smooth line.


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

65# power pro has a diameter of 0.016 inches. I got such a killer deal I just went with it but 50# is what I would buy if I paid normal prices for it. And its diameter is only 0.014 inches.
Hatch 68# backing is 0.015 inches.
Dacron 20# is 0.018 inches and 30# is 0.024 inches.
I couldn't find the specs on micron but its less than dacron for sure.

And I agree that you don't need anything above 20# on a 8wt or smaller rod. But when you have a bulk spool of heavier and thinner stuff its silly to go buy something else.

Here's a good read on using the new gen stuff even on small trout reels.

http://www.gorgeflyshop.com/store/pc/Backing-In-depth-look-d253.htm#.UtdUyLSYySo


----------



## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

I use Dacron and tie an Albright knot. Both for the backing and the tip it. It's easy, fast and simple.


----------



## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

And the cheap bass pro kind. Unless your fighting a 400lb marlin from the beach, 150yds of 30lb backing is enough time to crank the boat up and start following the fish.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater
I looked and can spare some short samples of 40 60 and 80lb PP hollow ace if you still want to do a review.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Ok el9surf. I'll send you a PM with my address.

coconutgroves, before you leave to Belize, do you have a sample of the Hatch stuff you can send me?

Anyone have some Jerry Brown backing?

ifsteve, I have access to the power pro in green.

Someone try to get ahold (pm) sjl1580 and ask if he can send some. Otherwise, I'll follow up on the Toro Tamer. I'd really like to compare hollow braid backing as well.

Who else have various brands of backing samples that we can evaluate? I'd like to see something in the range 20lb dacron or that dia that you would use for an 8wt or less. Also something like 30lb dacron backing and/or anything that you would use for a 9/10wt or up to a 12wt.

Dacron, micron, real gel spun or any braid that you use that you believe to be great for backing. It'd be nice to see various brands! Please don't send just any braid you use on your spinning equipment, unless you are convinced that is has the properties it takes to be really good backing. If you don't have it but your local fly shop can spare a sample that they recommend or you like, than get some.

I promise that I will stay non-bias in this *"Backing Shootout!" *LOL  No really, it's just a flyline backing review! 

I have access to data from one of the largest braid testing facilities in the world. In the review I will look up the data, breaking strength, actual tested diameter and other test run on the lines. I'll also be comparing smoothness of the line and do some other test that is relevant to fly fishing.

I need at lease 10ft of each sample, labeled what it is. Entries who submitted samples will be noted in the review.

PM me to enter your favorite flyline backing and I will give you the address to send it to.

*It's ON!!!* 

Ted Haas


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Ted, did you ever do this test? I am thinking about upgrading my backing on my big game reels to Jerry Brown, Toro Tamer, or Hatch but not sure I want to fork out the bucks. But sometime in the next year or so I will prior to going after GTs.


----------

