# Speaking of Batteries..(Sorry, Long Post)



## ElLobo (Sep 14, 2020)

Battery questions - Need an electronics whiz. Here's the setup I went for. Same setup the Drake Boatworks guys are using. I have a NOCO 2 bank charger which can charge both Lithium and AGM/lead acid. No issue with my setup at all. Yamaha F70


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## ElLobo (Sep 14, 2020)

Should the Battery Selector Switch be turned to “Both” when operating the trolling motor periodically during the day? Leave it on “Both” after stowing the TM and getting underway? While the boat is underway, all three batteries will be charging? - I run my trolling motor on position 2 and save my house in case of emergencies on position 1. You can run on position 1+2 and everything should be fine as well. I've done both. 
Is there any downside to having the yellow power control wire for the Simrad connected directly to the house battery? - I clipped my yellow cord that automatically turns the Simrad on when the battery is switched on. Allows me to turn the Simrad off while keeping the the batteries in the on position.
Any issues “mixing” the batteries (AGM and Lithium)? - Yamaha says not to use lithiums with their alternator but a lot of manufacturers are doing it (Drake, HB) I haven't noticed any issues with my lithiums and they can crank the engine in an emergency and will recharge from the alternator. The Relion Batteries have a BMS system to manage their charge/overcharge. 
The on board charger will charge all three batteries when it is plugged in to power in the garage? - My setup is one bank charging the the House AGM and one bank charging both lithiums in parallel. Theoretically one tops off then the other starts charging. Still a 12v system. 
Any other considerations I should be aware of? On long runs (30+ min) where im doing 5500 or more rpms the majority of the run, I have noticed some issues with the alternator giving too much load to the system when in position 1+2. Simrad will cut out sometimes and I believe this is happening because of over charging from the alternator.


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## rickc (Nov 7, 2018)

Most likely the energy management system on your lithium battery shut it down. Overcharging with your boats alternator is likely what caused it. That is why most outboard manufacturers don't recommend lithium starting batteries.


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## Zika (Aug 6, 2015)

My long-time Yamaha tech also recommended alternating on the battery selector switch. Run half the day on Batt 1 and the other on Batt 2 for optimum charge and dependability. 

I use a solar charger so I have shied away from the lithium batteries (and my wallet thanks me for it!).


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## Bonesonthebrain (Jan 2, 2020)

rickc said:


> Most likely the energy management system on your lithium battery shut it down. Overcharging with your boats alternator is likely what caused it. That is why most outboard manufacturers don't recommend lithium starting batteries.


Yes, Dakota should be able to tell you how to reset the BMS if/when this happens.

Without knowing how the battery selector switch is wired, kind of impossible to know what might be going on. But keeping the switch on ‘both‘ sounds like trouble to me, the lithium battery is at a higher voltage than the AGM batteries and will try to equalize the voltage, effectively drawing the lithium battery down. Since it keeps almost a constant voltage all the way to depletion, it will likely never equalize.

Also, it is my understanding that you should not put batteries that have different Ahr ratings in parallel. No way would I be using your 2 bank onboard charger to supposedly charge three batteries of different types at once. A NOCO will do it, but not the one you currently have.


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## Water Bound (Dec 12, 2018)

Love my Lithium’s, but if you use a lithium starting battery and are under warranty, make sure you take it out if anything goes wrong. I was told by a servicing dealer here that Yamaha has told them that coverage will be denied if electrical issues arise and there is a lithium battery involved.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

My $0.02 - Lithium for trolling motors... AGM for house/starting. IMHO.


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## g8rfly (Oct 9, 2011)

My first thought after researching the lithiums was the energy management system. I generally agree with AGMs for starting also - at least for now until lithium becomes more proven with outboards/ charging. Somewhat related though, I really like the thought of having trolling motors on lithium up front and completely disconnected from everything else, and would much prefer to have the agm starting battery to be truly dedicated to the motor and maybe jackplate + emergency bilge wired directly. Then have a very small and light lithium for all the house stuff - small electronics mainly, potentially an amp. 

Building on Question 4 above, is anyone running a charging relay like the Blue sea ACR for two batteries where the primary starter is AGM and a secondary battery is lithium? This is what a I currently run on my panga with 2 agms and I like it a lot. I believe the power pole charge would handle this but does anyone know if the blue sea or yandina options (much more affordable) accomodate 1 AGM / 1 Lithium?


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## rickc (Nov 7, 2018)

I run an ankona copperhead with a 30 etec tiller.

Tried a small house battery and found it lacking in cranking amps when using my lowrance elite 9. Didn't realize how much power it uses. I don't run far to where I fish and that 30 just didn't have the charging capacity to keep the battery charged.

Now I run an odyssey pc925 for a house battery and it only weighs 23#. No more problems.

I use a battleborn 50amp hour battery for trolling. Only weighs 22#

I don't use any type of on board charger. Keep it simple. Plug them in when I get home. House battery seldom needs charging. When I use the troller, which is not that often, I plug it in when I get home. A few hrs and it is topped off.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

DBStoots said:


> What is the charging profile for the Yamaha F70 alternator?


Probably need to research deeper but according to Yamaha's website it's 17amps @ WOT. What it's doesn't mention is @ what voltage.
My Suzuki DF90 is 27amps @12volts. However in speaking to Mike @ Outboard Marine they indicate that Suzuki still does not recommend Lithium.


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## DBStoots (Jul 9, 2011)

Why does it have to be so complicated?  Thanks everyone.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

DBStoots said:


> Why does it have to be so complicated?


It's easy once you have the super double secret Stone Cutters Ovaltine Decoder Ring.


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## Mako 181 (May 1, 2020)

I had my ring for many years but the battery died. 
Now I’m stuck


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## Golden Channels (11 mo ago)

iMacattack said:


> My $0.02 - Lithium for trolling motors... AGM for house/starting. IMHO.


Keep in mind that to your alternator, a battery that it is charging is a load. If the load draws more power than the alternator is designed to supply, and the alternator is not designed to power, the alternator may be damaged. AGM, SLA and lithiium all have different charge characteristics, and therefor, they all load your alternator differently. AGMs are more like starting batteries, designed to deliver lots of power for short intervals, and charge back up quickly. This is why an AGM or an SLA is generally okay in a starting circuit with an alternator feeding it.

All bets are off when you connect your lithium battery to an alternator, unless it was designed for it.


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## Golden Channels (11 mo ago)

DBStoots said:


> Why does it have to be so complicated?  Thanks everyone.


Truer words were never spoken.

As a guy who has made his living with electricity for 40+ years, I can tell you that batteries are actually one of the most complicated things you can discuss. Besides the differences in chemistry, which each creates different charge characteristics, voltages, discharge capacity, etc. there is also the problem of life cycles and maintenance methods.

My favorite issue to pick on is how the vast majority of battery manufacturers don't actually publish proper spec sheets for the batteries they produce. This single thing probably produces more problems for people than any other problem in this industry.

There are some really good ideas here in this thread. In particular is the important point about hooking two different batteries in parallel. If one battery is weaker than the other, the bad battery can become a load on the good battery. This is where the rule about only connecting two identical models and age of batteries together comes from. Bottom line on two batteries in parallel, is if one has a cell that shorts, the remaining good one with push all it's power into the one with the shorted cell, probably boiling it, and killing the healthy one in the process.

Sorry to be so verbose. Hope this helps.


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## DBStoots (Jul 9, 2011)

Golden Channels said:


> Truer words were never spoken.
> 
> As a guy who has made his living with electricity for 40+ years, I can tell you that batteries are actually one of the most complicated things you can discuss. Besides the differences in chemistry, which each creates different charge characteristics, voltages, discharge capacity, etc. there is also the problem of life cycles and maintenance methods.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Eric. I've decided on an Odyssey PC680MJST battery to replace the Constant Power lithium battery I have been using for starting/house. It only weighs 16.6 lbs., so I'll actually reduce the weight of my system. Hope this will be ok.


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## Golden Channels (11 mo ago)

DBStoots said:


> Thanks, Eric. I've decided on an Odyssey PC680MJST battery to replace the Constant Power lithium battery I have been using for starting/house. It only weighs 16.6 lbs., so I'll actually reduce the weight of my system. Hope this will be ok.


I looked at the most recent owners manual Yamaha published for the F70. Their specification for minimum CCA is 380 and RC of 124 minutes. Your battery has less than half that rating.

Using a battery smaller than they specify could lead to two things. First, as the battery ages, it may eventually not have enough oomph to get the outboard started. When the battery is new, the battery will be drawn into a lower voltage range to deliver enough power to start your engine, and this will definitely place a greater strain on the battery, and possibly (not absolutely) on your starter.

So what I would expect to happen is that your battery will not live as long as you expect, and may create heat in your starter motor (not absolutely certain). But in general, running too small a battery may lead to your engine not starting, and a premature failure of the battery.

On the practical side, and trying to not break the bank, how your outboard starts should be what you watch closely if you want to continue to use that battery. If the engine jumps to life right away, and seems to start well, keep an eye on it, and remember this discussion. When it hesitates to start, it's probably a good idea to be more prompt than usual in replacing it. As long as your starter isn't on very long, that is a good indication that it isn't stressed. If the engine turns slower than normal, I'd be concerned for your starters health.


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## rickc (Nov 7, 2018)

DBStoots said:


> Thanks, Eric. I've decided on an Odyssey PC680MJST battery to replace the Constant Power lithium battery I have been using for starting/house. It only weighs 16.6 lbs., so I'll actually reduce the weight of my system. Hope this will be ok.


Two things 

you have an Odyssey PC1100 which would make a great house battery. Save or sell the second one. The boats alternator should keep it charged up fine.

You have a 100 amp hour lithium that would make a great trolling motor battery. I wouldn't set it up for any sort of charge on the run. Just charge it with the proper charger when you get home.

That smaller odyssey has a metal jacket. I don't think you want that in a salt water boat.


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## DBStoots (Jul 9, 2011)

Golden Channels said:


> I looked at the most recent owners manual Yamaha published for the F70. Their specification for minimum CCA is 380 and RC of 124 minutes. Your battery has less than half that rating.
> 
> Using a battery smaller than they specify could lead to two things. First, as the battery ages, it may eventually not have enough oomph to get the outboard started. When the battery is new, the battery will be drawn into a lower voltage range to deliver enough power to start your engine, and this will definitely place a greater strain on the battery, and possibly (not absolutely) on your starter.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that--I should have checked before placing the order. I've put in a request to cancel the order. What would you suggest that might keep the weight close to current (30 lbs or under)? I appreciate your insight.


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## Golden Channels (11 mo ago)

DBStoots said:


> Thank you for that--I should have checked before placing the order. I've put in a request to cancel the order. What would you suggest that might keep the weight close to current (30 lbs or under)? I appreciate your insight.


This is where the other guys might have some brand suggestions based on their experience, but from my perspective, the thing that sets the weight on a battery is the design for which it is intended, which in this case is a starter battery, and its chemistry, which here is SLA. Basically, there will be little difference in manufacturers by weight by CCA rating, assuming they are all arriving at CCA using the same test/math. It's basically lead and acid designed to deliver a certain amount of power at a certain draw. Not much room for design improvements. I personally like Rolls and Trojan batteries, but there are other good manufacturers out there. My AGM batteries are Duracells from Costco, and they seem okay, but the model I bought is 72 lbs.

If you have been impressed with a certain brand of battery in your area, I would go back to them. Like I said, at the end of the day, these are a bucket of acid and lead plates. Just make certain it's a battery designed for starting.


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## manny2376 (Mar 15, 2007)

ODS-AGM28L (PC925) ODYSSEY Extreme Series Battery | ODYSSEY® Battery


Looking for an ODS-AGM28L (PC925) ODYSSEY Extreme Series Battery? Buy it online at OdysseyBattery.com - the official manfacturer's website. Whether it's a battery for your car, boat, RV, a powersports battery or a heavy duty / commercial application battery - powerful performance starts here!




www.odysseybattery.com







28lbs. Been running one as my house battery (f60, lowrance, tabs and a bilge) on my Waterman without issue for two years.


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## Golden Channels (11 mo ago)

manny2376 said:


> ODS-AGM28L (PC925) ODYSSEY Extreme Series Battery | ODYSSEY® Battery
> 
> 
> Looking for an ODS-AGM28L (PC925) ODYSSEY Extreme Series Battery? Buy it online at OdysseyBattery.com - the official manfacturer's website. Whether it's a battery for your car, boat, RV, a powersports battery or a heavy duty / commercial application battery - powerful performance starts here!
> ...


That's better. I'd second that.


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## rickc (Nov 7, 2018)

DBStoots said:


> Thank you for that--I should have checked before placing the order. I've put in a request to cancel the order. What would you suggest that might keep the weight close to current (30 lbs or under)? I appreciate your insight.


What is wrong with just switching the batteries that you have and eliminating one of the 1100s. That will save the weight of one of them.

I use a 12v 55# trolling motor. Have a 50 amp hr. Lithium. Never ran it out of charge. Weighs half what your 100 weighs.


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## rickc (Nov 7, 2018)

manny2376 said:


> ODS-AGM28L (PC925) ODYSSEY Extreme Series Battery | ODYSSEY® Battery
> 
> 
> Looking for an ODS-AGM28L (PC925) ODYSSEY Extreme Series Battery? Buy it online at OdysseyBattery.com - the official manfacturer's website. Whether it's a battery for your car, boat, RV, a powersports battery or a heavy duty / commercial application battery - powerful performance starts here!
> ...


I too run the 925 with no problems.


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## attitudeindicator (Sep 8, 2020)

Not trying to cause any heart attacks or anything but I’m running a single Dakota Lithium 60AH dual purpose starting/deep cycle for my skiff.. it’s the only battery on board and powers my trolling motor as well.


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## DBStoots (Jul 9, 2011)

attitudeindicator said:


> Not trying to cause any heart attacks or anything but I’m running a single Dakota Lithium 60AH dual purpose starting/deep cycle for my skiff.. it’s the only battery on board and powers my trolling motor as well.


Curious how you charge it.


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## attitudeindicator (Sep 8, 2020)

DBStoots said:


> Curious how you charge it.


On the water the Suzuki Df60a charges it. I have a charger that was supplied by Dakota when I purchased but I rarely use it.


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## 35spline (Mar 21, 2020)

attitudeindicator said:


> Not trying to cause any heart attacks or anything but I’m running a single Dakota Lithium 60AH dual purpose starting/deep cycle for my skiff.. it’s the only battery on board and powers my trolling motor as well.


I have one Ionic 125ah that starts and runs everything including the troller. I can fish multiple days without needing to charge. The Bluetooth phone app monitors the charge capacity which is helpful. I think it is 34lbs.


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## Golden Channels (11 mo ago)

Speaking from the perspective of a manufacturer, customers never know what is going on inside the outboard manufacturers failure analysis and design groups. These companies keep their dealers pretty close, relationship-wise, so I would expect that many (but not all) of the outboard manufacturers engineering teams would digest any increased rates of alternator failures globally, and determine a root cause.

Over time, the use of other batteries in their charging circuits would be a topic of discussion, and a policy would be created. This policy may never be made public, only disclosed by dealer conversations with customers on an "as needed" basis.

This is where having a chat with your mechanic is as good a data as you can expect. The designs of alternators will vary by manufacturer, and I expect that some might have already made changes to how their charging circuits work, based on lithium and other chemistries being used more frequently. I would approach the question as general failure rate of alternators under heavy charging loads, of a particular outboard and model and year, if you don't want to bring battery type into the discussion. But he will know why you're asking. Nudge-nudge. Wink-wink.

So, it would seem obvious that the older the outboard, the less likely there have been any changes to the charging circuit to accommodate newer battery technology. But, some charging circuits are better designs for conditions that will cause the alternator to fail, so some outboards may experience no problem charging different chemistries whatsoever.

It's not inconceivable that some outboards will be happy forever charging a certain lithium battery bank through it's battery management system. An over designed alternator charging a well designed lithium BMS bank is very possible. On the other side of the equation, BMS systems vary widely, and some will be better matched to the charging from certain outboards and alternators.

This is one of those times that designers who overbuild stuff are going to have more happy customers.


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