# S. Texas solo flyfisherman TUNNEL VS. CAT



## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Prolly answered your own question. Obviously dont need to be thinking about a technical poling skiff. Just go buy a 21' Shoalwater, put a 200 on it and you will fit In just fine. Stylin' in fact.


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Distinction between technical (I agree with you on the that) and skinny flats boat? Do you mean a shoalwater CAT or other? How about shorter? $


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## Surffshr (Dec 28, 2017)

This here is what you need.


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Surffshr said:


> View attachment 100848
> 
> 
> This here is what you need.


Is this Kevin? I’ve been to East Cape and Kevin was wonderful and patient. I’m heavy and not mobile And I worried about stability, tippy. An issue? Is yours for sale? Others avail?


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## Surffshr (Dec 28, 2017)

No but Kevin is a cool dude that has helped me more than once even though I bought this used. It will be for sale soon. It is a Lostmen, and head and shoulders better than any tunnel/cat that we see here. I bought it because it reminded me of the ‘89 shallow sport i ran for years insofar as stability. With the trolling motor and power pole, I fish solo and do well sightcasting with a fly rod. The issue with every “south Texas” tunnel hull that I know is they are so damn flat/loud that you (almost) have to wade to sight cast.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Might consider a New Water Ibis as an alternative as that is a little over 21' and drafts pretty shallow with a tunnel that works. Since not poling, thus might fit the bill. They are quite proud of those boats though. Could also look at their Curlew. That Lostmen could also be the right boat. Good to have choices.


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

commtrd said:


> Might consider a New Water Ibis as an alternative as that is a little over 21' and drafts pretty shallow with a tunnel that works. Since not poling, thus might fit the bill. They are quite proud of those boats though. Could also look at their Curlew. That Lostmen could also be the right boat. Good to have choices.





commtrd said:


> Might consider a New Water Ibis as an alternative as that is a little over 21' and drafts pretty shallow with a tunnel that works. Since not poling, thus might fit the bill. They are quite proud of those boats though. Could also look at their Curlew. That Lostmen could also be the right boat. Good to have choices.


thnx for response. I’m working on it. I was thinking Evo or fury for size. Smaller cat (18’ ish) with lower profile?? Two very different things I’m aware. Isis is too much$ for me. Curlew too slow. Picky, picky.


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## Seymour fish (May 13, 2018)

Jhw said:


> thnx for response. I’m working on it. I was thinking Evo or fury for size. Smaller cat (18’ ish) with lower profile?? Two very different things I’m aware. Isis is too much$ for me. Curlew too slow. Picky, picky.





Jhw said:


> thnx for response. I’m working on it. I was thinking Evo or fury for size. Smaller cat (18’ ish) with lower profile?? Two very different things I’m aware. Isis is too much$ for me. Curlew too slow. Picky, picky.


Jhw, best pick something before we get old


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## tdlredbud (Jan 13, 2016)

SCB re con with a 250 SHO with trp. Expensive but has a true 8-10 inch draft and would cruise at 55hp


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Already too old. 
I am still confused about draft, depth of trolling motor, 1100lb. dry weight cat vs 500 lb. skiff with the same “claimed” draft. (What difference does it make if the “claimed” draft at rest is 5” but the trolling motor needs 10” depth to perform?) Displacement is the answer of course but all the boats seem sold by anecdote, not empirical proof. 
A very few years ago stability meant nothing to me but now it is near the most important attribute. Advantage catamaran.
See sentence #1.
I really enjoy the forum, especially Chris Morejohn and the thoughtful, well reasoned responses to his posts. His design, the Piranha Magro is a new entry in the pack. Kevin at East Cape is the best ambassador for boating i’ve met.


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## Surffshr (Dec 28, 2017)

The difference is in how much noise the hull generates underway with a trolling motor. Draft/Depth of water between my old shallow sport and current Lostmen using a TM is negligible. Hull weight does make a difference when you get too skinny. No way I’d push the SS but the Lostmen is no big deal. 

There is no magical boat that will accomplish everything you listed. Some will get close and those that do are spendy. 
Here are the answers to your questions for a Lostmen. 
South Texas, 18’ to 21’, tunnel vs. cat? solo flyfisherman, (Troll no pole), 18’ tunnel
Jack plate ? Yes
Draft? 5-7 inches depending on load
Tabs? Yes
Other variables? Quiet hull
Depth of trolling motor vs. draft? Enough to spin prop maybe 10” needed when using TM. Still shallow enough for tailing fish. 
Dry? Depends on operator 
STABLE! Aircraft carrier like for a skiff
Other? It actually turns


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## tdlredbud (Jan 13, 2016)

One last entry. Call Keith Kay (361-563-2685) in Corpus. He makes a 23' Wild skiff with a tunnel. It was designed by Bruce Wild and is a fabulous boat. Shallow draft, stable, gets up skinny and handles rough water well. Top speed with a 200 SHO/TRP is low 50's. Keith just built one for my accountant who is 68 years old and still wants to fish skinny. He loves it.


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Thnx. Don’t know your recommendations but at least they are not in the Keys. Corpus is easy from McAllen.


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## texasislandboy (Jul 25, 2011)

Shoot me a message and I'll give you my phone number. I'm down in south padre and I have owned shallow sports, New waters, Pathfnders, Build a few SCB's for shallow sport. I can shoot you right not one boat is good at everything. They all have a give and take. I own a shallow sport 24 V an a Pathfinder 17T


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

texasislandboy said:


> Shoot me a message and I'll give you my phone number. I'm down in south padre and I have owned shallow sports, New waters, Pathfnders, Build a few SCB's for shallow sport. I can shoot you right not one boat is good at everything. They all have a give and take. I own a shallow sport 24 V an a Pathfinder 17T


956-533-1393


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Waiting for your call


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## SeaDrifter (Apr 4, 2018)

My current primary solo setup is a Majek Texas Skiff, Yamaha 70, jack plate, 80# Minkota, 8' power pole, trim tabs. With this little setup I can fish solo or with the family/friends and be comfortable. 



Michael


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

I had an ultra cat 22’ that was stable but SLOW. THIS WAS BEFORE MAJEK BOUGHT THE MOLDS and they have never given out the specs on their Ultra Cat since... any length? as you’ve seen above I’m solo, fly, catch and release, old, limited movement and value stability and money. I’ll be trolling not polling. 
Used East Cape with tunnel or other/tunnel. Lower Laguna Madre SPI so nw to fish then se home. Good weather only. Stability argues for Cat but draft, handling, appearance, etc. argues for skiff.
Thoughts?





SeaDrifter said:


> My current primary solo setup is a Majek Texas Skiff, Yamaha 70, jack plate, 80# Minkota, 8' power pole, trim tabs. With this little setup I can fish solo or with the family/friends and be comfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





SeaDrifter said:


> My current primary solo setup is a Majek Texas Skiff, Yamaha 70, jack plate, 80# Minkota, 8' power pole, trim tabs. With this little setup I can fish solo or with the family/friends and be comfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> Michael





SeaDrifter said:


> My current primary solo setup is a Majek Texas Skiff, Yamaha 70, jack plate, 80# Minkota, 8' power pole, trim tabs. With this little setup I can fish solo or with the family/friends and be comfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> Michael





SeaDrifter said:


> My current primary solo setup is a Majek Texas Skiff, Yamaha 70, jack plate, 80# Minkota, 8' power pole, trim tabs. With this little setup I can fish solo or with the family/friends and be comfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> Michael





SeaDrifter said:


> My current primary solo setup is a Majek Texas Skiff, Yamaha 70, jack plate, 80# Minkota, 8' power pole, trim tabs. With this little setup I can fish solo or with the family/friends and be comfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> Michael


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## SeaDrifter (Apr 4, 2018)

Jhw said:


> I had an ultra cat 22’ that was stable but SLOW. THIS WAS BEFORE MAJEK BOUGHT THE MOLDS and they have never given out the specs on their Ultra Cat since... any length? as you’ve seen above I’m solo, fly, catch and release, old, limited movement and value stability and money. I’ll be trolling not polling.
> Used East Cape with tunnel or other/tunnel. Lower Laguna Madre SPI so nw to fish then se home. Good weather only. Stability argues for Cat but draft, handling, appearance, etc. argues for skiff.
> Thoughts?


My little skiff is the smallest in the Redfish Line and is very stable. Mine is setup to go super skinny and get up in a puddle of mud. I have seen 30mph at WOT one time running the 4 blade deep cupped prop. It drafts less than 6" and I can get on plane in less than 1'. For me it is just this side of perfect but only being 16' long it can beat you up if you try to go too quick through the chop. 



Michael


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## Matts (Sep 2, 2015)

tdlredbud said:


> One last entry. Call Keith Kay (361-563-2685) in Corpus. He makes a 23' Wild skiff with a tunnel. It was designed by Bruce Wild and is a fabulous boat. Shallow draft, stable, gets up skinny and handles rough water well. Top speed with a 200 SHO/TRP is low 50's. Keith just built one for my accountant who is 68 years old and still wants to fish skinny. He loves it.


One of my good friends has one of the first 3 Wild 23 made and for a big boat, it is amazing. Powered with a 150 TRP, it will get up on 8-10”. He even has a poling platform but if it’s windy, down wind is preferred. Super versatile craft!


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Your question is way too general. Sounds like you want a bay boat. Try not to chop salad with the trolling motor.


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Jhw said:


> 956-533-1393





Smackdaddy53 said:


> Your question is way too general. Sounds like you want a bay boat. Try not to chop salad with the trolling motor.


Which question is too general? I certainly tried for specific. Solo, fly, catch and release, old, relatively immobile, skinny but not extreme (no technical polling need apply), STABLE, casting platform with stripping basket, troll not pole, 40+ speed. I had a Cat when I didn’t need stable and now I miss that but it was slow. Too much data now?


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

23’ Dargel Cat


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> 23’ Dargel Cat


Thnx.
JW


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## Matts (Sep 2, 2015)

I’d take a Wild 23 over any cat all day long and twice on Sunday!


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Matts said:


> I’d take a Wild 23 over any cat all day long and twice on Sunday!


How long have they been around?


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> 23’ Dargel Cat


Captain Scott Null runs this one for fly clients when he wants to fish for tarpon off the beach and inside with multiple anglers but it will also troll and fish like you are describing. Solid, fairly skinny, her lines aren’t easy on the eyes but function over form in my book. Too many boat divas that spend more time polishing their hulls and buying/selling brand new gear than fishing.


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Captain Scott Null runs this one for fly clients when he wants to fish for tarpon off the beach and inside with multiple anglers but it will also troll and fish like you are describing. Solid, fairly skinny, her lines aren’t easy on the eyes but function over form in my book. Too many boat divas that spend more time polishing their hulls and buying/selling brand new gear than fishing.


Specs, pics?
JW


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Matts said:


> I’d take a Wild 23 over any cat all day long and twice on Sunday!


Can’t find them with Google? Where are they built? By whom? Any in south Texas? Rio Grand Valley? Other? Guides down here? 
Cold front hit here at 9 pm. Hard!


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## tdlredbud (Jan 13, 2016)

I listed Keith Kay’s info on page 1. He builds the wild 23 here in Corpus.


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## texasislandboy (Jul 25, 2011)

A new Water curlew would be my pick. nothing with a tunnel is going to be fast without a ton of HP on it. You can't find a more stable skiff type boat than a ibis or curlew.


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## Bruce J (Mar 4, 2018)

I've never used a tape measure to see how skinny you can use a trolling motor, but I bet 10" is not realistic. You have to have the prop fully submerged by several inches at least to be relatively quiet. I bet it would be something like 18" at least to operate it, and then you still have grass issues in most places. Now you can catch a lot of fish in 18"+ of water, but it's really quite different than poling silently in half of that. A buddy of mine had an 18' Shallow Sport that he loved that would fit your requirements pretty well, except for speed.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

If you want something that's going to be stable, float in 10-12" so you can troll, put a casting platform/stripping basket on the bow, and run 40+ that's going to be at home way down in the Lower Laguna Madre where you might have to run through a chop to get to the flats I'm thinking you need to go with a cat hull all day long. Especially since you said you can't or don't want to pay for a New Water Ibis.

Some options that are all made in South Texas (in no particular order):
Haynie 21' Cat http://hayniebayboats.com/boat-models/21-cat/
Dargel 23' Cat https://dargelboats.net/boat-model-lines
Shallow Sport 25 X3 https://www.shallowsportboats.com/boat/25-x3/
JH Outlaw 210X https://www.jhperformanceboats.com/
El Pescador 21 Cat http://www.elpescadorboats.com/21-cat.html
Stoner SuperCat http://www.stonerskiffs.com/Stoner_Boats_Super_Cat/Welcome.html

CraigsList has a whole bunch of used boats down in the Valley that seem to fit your needs. A cat is going to float fairly skinny, run better in a chop, have good speed, be extremely stable, and easily outfitted with a trolling motor, casting platform w/ basket, and PowerPole.

Hell, get a custom casting platform with basket (think like a tarpon cage) and stick it on the front deck here and you're set: https://mcallen.craigslist.org/bod/d/aransas-pass-21-ft-shoalwater-cat-2008/7017958154.html


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Not an El Pescador cat whatever you do, just trust me.


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## Matts (Sep 2, 2015)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> How long have they been around?


My buddies boat is like a 2001 or so and it’s solid. They didn’t build any for about a decade and just started again last year. Definitely an unknown but a big skiff, it’s all that.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Matts said:


> My buddies boat is like a 2001 or so and it’s solid. They didn’t build any for about a decade and just started again last year. Definitely an unknown but a big skiff, it’s all that.


I’d like to look into these, send me any info you may get your hands on please.


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## Yamadog (Oct 19, 2015)

No matter which cat hull you choose your going to have a hard time efficiently operating a trolling motor quietly enough to sneak in fly range for reds. A skiff with a trolling motor would be a better choice but still not optimal. Poling from the bow of a skiff would be the most effective but certainly not easy. Have you considered hiring a fly fishing guide several times a year? Would likely be more cost effective. Just my .02.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yamadog said:


> No matter which cat hull you choose your going to have a hard time efficiently operating a trolling motor quietly enough to sneak in fly range for reds. A skiff with a trolling motor would be a better choice but still not optimal. Poling from the bow of a skiff would be the most effective but certainly not easy. Have you considered hiring a fly fishing guide several times a year? Would likely be more cost effective. Just my .02.


I know a pretty decent fly fishing guide that needs some clients to get going...


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I know a pretty decent fly fishing guide that needs some clients to get going...


Guide’s name and numbers please.
John


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Not an El Pescador cat whatever you do, just trust me.


I have zero experience with them. And actually very little with the classic El Pescador but I know they're very highly regarded.


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## KurtActual (Sep 25, 2017)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I know a pretty decent fly fishing guide that needs some clients to get going...


You have my interest. PM me?


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

956-533-1393


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> I have zero experience with them. And actually very little with the classic El Pescador but I know they're very highly regarded.


The cats have their issues. I demo’d a 21 for a guy and fished a 24 a few times and there are a lot of issues for a boat with that price tag.


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

I had an ultra cat 22, very stable but 35 mph with Evin 225. Ridiculously slow. Very, very smooth in light to medium. MAJEK now owns the molds 18’, 20’, 22’ I think but they refuse to publish any specs. ? They may have improved the molds but who knows. Other than that good people, boats, company.


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## Matts (Sep 2, 2015)

Jhw said:


> I had an ultra cat 22, very stable but 35 mph with Evin 225. Ridiculously slow. Very, very smooth in light to medium. MAJEK now owns the molds 18’, 20’, 22’ I think but they refuse to publish any specs. ? They may have improved the molds but who knows. Other than that good people, boats, company.


Wow. I can get that or better in my very stable TPS with a 50hp! Amazing.


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## RJTaylor (Oct 4, 2017)

I "poled" a 17 Dargel Skout for years, and caught plenty of fish on the LLM from it. It will float skinny enough to get you in trouble, will run more than fast enough, and keep you cool from the wet ride on those hot summer days.

Or you could find an older HPX-T...


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Jhw said:


> I had an ultra cat 22, very stable but 35 mph with Evin 225. Ridiculously slow. Very, very smooth in light to medium. MAJEK now owns the molds 18’, 20’, 22’ I think but they refuse to publish any specs. ? They may have improved the molds but who knows. Other than that good people, boats, company.


Sounds like a prop and motor height issue. My cousin had the same boat and motor about ten years ago and it would run 42-44. It split down the middle but it was a nice hull but rough layup I guess. 


RJTaylor said:


> I "poled" a 17 Dargel Skout for years, and caught plenty of fish on the LLM from it. It will float skinny enough to get you in trouble, will run more than fast enough, and keep you cool from the wet ride on those hot summer days.
> 
> Or you could find an older HPX-T...


He’s 75 years old, those Dargel Skouts are ROUGH!


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## Matts (Sep 2, 2015)

I had a Dargel Skout briefly and it's a super skinny boat, but will beat you a bit. Great design for a wade fisherman but I wouldn't want to pole it much.
Best,


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

The “roll edge” cats that I’ve seen have zero gunnel space for rod storage. Ultra cat, flats cat, Dargel, shallowsport, they are just not Flyfishing boats. Am I missing something? Tran, haynie, other?


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## Matts (Sep 2, 2015)

You can fly fish out of any boat, but storing flyrod’s is another thing altogether. Most of these are flats boats designed for trolling or waiting and do not come rigged to carry fly rods.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

Scott Null did this on his Dargel Kat for fly rods


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## Surffshr (Dec 28, 2017)

I can only imagine how effed up my rigs would be if I did that. I had a hard enough time keeping spook jrs from taking an eye out.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Matts said:


> Wow. I can get that or better in my very stable TPS with a 50hp! Amazing.


Gonna be very difficult to beat a Chittum. In fact I am going out on a limb and saying "Not Happening". Now cost, that is an entirely different matter there.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Jhw said:


> The “roll edge” cats that I’ve seen have zero gunnel space for rod storage. Ultra cat, flats cat, Dargel, shallowsport, they are just not Flyfishing boats. Am I missing something? Tran, haynie, other?


Far as I know, the ONLY TX-made boats that could be said to be made for fly fishing would be the New Water boats. Again, totally NOT cheap either. I think the OP would BY FAR be best served with a Curlew. No one really needs to be running the flats at 60 mph anyway. So that "too slow" argument is N/A IMHO.


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Sounds like a prop and motor height issue. My cousin had the same boat and motor about ten years ago and it would run 42-44. It split down the middle but it was a nice hull but rough layup I guess.
> 
> He’s 75 years old, those Dargel Skouts are ROUGH!


Again, thanks for the input. I tried height, pitch “tuck”, prop pitch and never got speed. It would leap out of the hole though. Tabs down, motor in and up and it would plane in far less than its 22’ length. 
Fly rod storage terrible. I only fished in good weather with winds under 20 and it was much smoother than any other boat I’ve been in.


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> If you want something that's going to be stable, float in 10-12" so you can troll, put a casting platform/stripping basket on the bow, and run 40+ that's going to be at home way down in the Lower Laguna Madre where you might have to run through a chop to get to the flats I'm thinking you need to go with a cat hull all day long. Especially since you said you can't or don't want to pay for a New Water Ibis.
> 
> Some options that are all made in South Texas (in no particular order):
> Haynie 21' Cat http://hayniebayboats.com/boat-models/21-cat/
> ...


Am I the only person who wonders why none of the catamaran builders use Kevlar or other methods to remove a lot of weight from their flats or bay boats? Given their weight disadvantage relative to ALL Florida boats it would seem an easy change. Comparing skiffs it seems Kevlar saves about 20 to 25% in weight. Is that accurate and what is the corresponding cost increase in materials and labor?
John


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Jhw said:


> Am I the only person who wonders why none of the catamaran builders use Kevlar or other methods to remove a lot of weight from their flats or bay boats? Given their weight disadvantage relative to ALL Florida boats it would seem an easy change. Comparing skiffs it seems Kevlar saves about 20 to 25% in weight. Is that accurate and what is the corresponding cost increase in materials and labor?
> John


Haynie offers a hybrid hull.


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## Chad Cohn (Mar 8, 2018)

Have you looked at Fat Cat? Built out of Corpus as well. I've never ridden in one but I've been told they're fast and stable. This is a 16 ft'r.
http://www.fatcatboats.com/pages/dw-16-details.asp


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## Jhw (Jan 13, 2019)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I know a pretty decent fly fishing guide that needs some clients to get going...


Happy Thanksgiving. Who is the guide? #s please.
John


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## Steve Washington (Nov 9, 2019)

Jhw said:


> Which question is too general? I certainly tried for specific. Solo, fly, catch and release, old, relatively immobile, skinny but not extreme (no technical polling need apply), STABLE, casting platform with stripping basket, troll not pole, 40+ speed. I had a Cat when I didn’t need stable and now I miss that but it was slow. Too much data now?


Look at the Action Craft 1720. Small enough for one person to load/unload on a trailer. Runs shallow 7-8 inches static, runs low 40's with a 115HP, and made for fly fishing. Full three piece boat that will last 20 or more years. It has an 87" beam and is extremely stable for three people so for one it is rock solid. PM if you want more info.


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