# Skiff Financing



## duppyzafari (Jul 9, 2015)

For the Floridians on the forum - I just saw that Suncoast Credit Union has an "Endless Summer" Promotion in June and July with rates as low as 4.00% on Boats, RVs, Personal Watercraft (boo), and Motorcycles. 

You don't have to be a member to apply. If you live in Florida, you're eligible for membership at Suncoast. I'm a strong advocate for Credit Unions over banks, but that's another discussion.

I know that there is some diversity of thought on the merits of financing a skiff vs saving and paying cash - for those of us who are open to using credit to finance our passion, I don't know that I've ever seen rates this low, previously, especially for pre-owned boats.

Anyway, I have nothing to do with it, so check their website for more info. I just saw it and wanted to share.

_EDIT_ to save you the clicking around and reading - they will finance boats up to 7 model years old based on Hull ID. Maximum Loan is $100k (cough CHITTUM) and you can choose a term up to 144 months/12 years. The rate does not change based on your term.


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## DBStoots (Jul 9, 2011)

Financing a skiff--_“Rather go to bed without dinner than to rise in debt.” (Ben Franklin)._


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

my dad always told me to never finance my toys. it was good advice as usual. many will protest.


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## spc7669 (Apr 15, 2015)

devrep said:


> my dad always told me to never finance my toys. it was good advice as usual. many will protest.


Your dad is a wise man


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

Unless you pay less interest than the return you make on the money in something else. Depends on your situation. If you finance 20k at 4-5% and you have methods to cash flow and return over that on the 20k then you would be a fool not to and build credit at same time. 

To each their own.


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

I financed less than half the cost of my first skiff years ago (2006). Paid it off early and sold it 9 years later for dang near what I paid for it. Since then, skiffs , side x side and other toys have all been cash.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

Just running some numbers based on what I've heard from people financing- say you do a $45K note for 84 months @ 6% you're only paying about $10K in interest over those 7 years. That's less than $1500 per year in interest that you're paying for the ability to not deplete your own savings. I don't know about y'all but I can damn sure put that $1500 per year to much better use in an investment vehicle that will earn me a 10% return annually.

Do that and the money you've saved by financing puts you over $1500 ahead where you would have been paying cash.


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## tcov (Apr 7, 2018)

I financed the skiff I own now while I had credit card debt, and a big truck payment and was living the “normal” way of life. Now our house is our only debt and we decided to never finance things again. Debt free is the way to go. Just remember the borrower is slave to the lender.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> Just running some numbers based on what I've heard from people financing- say you do a $45K note for 84 months @ 6% you're only paying about $10K in interest over those 7 years. That's less than $1500 per year in interest that you're paying for the ability to not deplete your own savings. I don't know about y'all but I can damn sure put that $1500 per year to much better use in an investment vehicle that will earn me a 10% return annually.
> 
> Do that and the money you've saved by financing puts you over $1500 ahead where you would have been paying cash.


trying to figure out how this scenario makes sense. if it did then EVERYONE would be going into debt financing big ticket items so they could make a ton of money.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> Just running some numbers based on what I've heard from people financing- say you do a $45K note for 84 months @ 6% you're only paying about $10K in interest over those 7 years. That's less than $1500 per year in interest that you're paying for the ability to not deplete your own savings. I don't know about y'all but I can damn sure put that $1500 per year to much better use in an investment vehicle that will earn me a 10% return annually.
> 
> Do that and the money you've saved by financing puts you over $1500 ahead where you would have been paying cash.


also, your monthly payment on a 45K loan at 6% would be more like 230.00 and the total interest paid on the 45K over 84 months would be 19K. spending 19K to borrow 45K on a small boat that most guys will use sporadically at best once the shine wears off doesn't sound like fun. bad enough to do it on a vehicle. are people even getting 6% loans on boats?


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

I just hate these kinds of threads. How someone pays for their skiff is nobody else's business. Period. OP thanks for posting up a great interest rate.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

When the market drops at the end of the year( and it will). Hope you still have money put away for your toys if you finance I saw it in 06 a lot of people I know lost them big jacked up trucks/ bay boats.

1 sheet of plywood 6 2×4s 
180.00
One of my contractors doing a remodel. This inflation will be the end.

I don't finance toys period.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

I agree with the op on credit unions over banks I have been a suncoast member 21 years and have a 4 Runner loan with them.


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## Mako 181 (May 1, 2020)

duppyzafari said:


> For the Floridians on the forum - I just saw that Suncoast Credit Union has an "Endless Summer" Promotion in June and July with rates as low as 4.00% on Boats, RVs, Personal Watercraft (boo), and Motorcycles.
> 
> You don't have to be a member to apply. If you live in Florida, you're eligible for membership at Suncoast. I'm a strong advocate for Credit Unions over banks, but that's another discussion.
> 
> ...


So you are buying a new Chittum?


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

ifsteve said:


> I just hate these kinds of threads. How someone pays for their skiff is nobody else's business. Period. OP thanks for posting up a great interest rate.


it's a discussion forum. I posted my opinion and experience. what I post is none of your business either.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

ifsteve said:


> I just hate these kinds of threads. How someone pays for their skiff is nobody else's business. Period. OP thanks for posting up a great interest rate.


Amen and as most things in life, highly nuanced and takes heavy discipline to manage and do well.

If investing was easy, everyone would just say trade and boom, rich. Just not how it works.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

Was my fault for adding my thoughts, I regretted it as soon as I hit send.


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## SS06 (Apr 6, 2021)

On several forums over the years I have seen similar posts and its always the same responses...."Don't finance toys", "Invest your money", etc, etc.

Not everyone is sitting on $40k cash, but are working hard. With the cost of skiffs now financing may be the only means to get a skiff. Hell a lot of you giving that advice probly bought your first (starter) homes for less than $50k....my 25 year old son is now looking for his first home and in Central Florida his "starter home" is looking in the neighborhood of $200k...I see no problem financing whatever dream you have as long as you don't over extend yourself and plan for your future. Life is to short to not fulfill at least some of your dreams and have some fun.


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## SymmFish (Aug 28, 2018)

If folks manage it correctly and work to pay off early, finance can be good for some to buy a skiff. You have to ensure that you manage properly and don’t get upside down and I would say don’t buy the max because you can finance it. Finance something that works for you and makes sense


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

fortunately none of you guys espousing the financing of expensive toys were my financial advisor. finance your house (hopefully with a decent down payment). finance your vehicle if you must. I get the "life is too short to not have fun" thing but there are many ways to enjoy fishing without a butt load of debt. I have several friends and a bunch of family members who are either working well beyond retirement age or are not living comfortably in retirement because "life is too short" and they made no effort to prepare. life is too short to save enough money for your old age if you fuck up.


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## marshrat (Feb 22, 2018)

SS06 said:


> On several forums over the years I have seen similar posts and its always the same responses...."Don't finance toys", "Invest your money", etc, etc.
> 
> Not everyone is sitting on $40k cash, but are working hard. With the cost of skiffs now financing may be the only means to get a skiff. Hell a lot of you giving that advice probly bought your first (starter) homes for less than $50k....my 25 year old son is now looking for his first home and in Central Florida his "starter home" is looking in the neighborhood of $200k...I see no problem financing whatever dream you have as long as you don't over extend yourself and plan for your future. Life is to short to not fulfill at least some of your dreams and have some fun.



I understand what you're saying, but you also don't HAVE to buy a $40k skiff... Catching fish and having a good time can be done for a LOT less, even in skinny water. 

Second, a house is not a boat. Houses and property appreciate in value, and skiffs depreciate.


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## duppyzafari (Jul 9, 2015)

I really appreciate the diversity of thought expressed above - one of the reasons that I love this forum is the extreme infrequency of the toxic negativity that seems to be the entire point of many other forums. Lots of good dudes (and a few dudettes) here expressing differences of opinions in respectful ways.

Here are a few of my thoughts - and I welcome further discussion.

Even with the ability to pay cash for some things, responsible use of credit is like an insurance policy for your reserve savings. If you were faced with an emergency and needed cash, having a boat that is paid in full will be far less useful than accessible funds in savings. Pricing your boat for a quick sale will always cost you more than the 4% you're paying to borrow the funds that secure it.

Obviously, owning a boat will always cost you something (insert pained, uncomfortable laugh here.) The purchase price is NEVER your final expense. Accessories, modifications, routine maintenance, unexpected maintenance... Financing some or all of the initial purchase leaves you in a better position to respond to the needs and wants of happy ownership, AND there is never a pre-payment penalty on simple interest contracts. When you decide you're ready to pay it off, you can. The interest paid in the interim is a tiny fraction of the entire cost of ownership.

Responsible use of credit is not inherently worse than paying cash for everything. It's just a different approach to personal finance. Would it be cool to have a mountain of cash? Heck yeah, but I don't think the only alternative should be living like a monk in the forest. (No offense intended to any monks on the forum.) 

Bu without a mountain of cash, if an option exists to engage in the happy activity that has brought us together on this forum, to live a fuller life, to experience more of the natural wonder of this county without taking a 10-year vow of poverty to finance it, I would argue that taking full advantage of that option is the right decision every single time.

I have said it before on this forum, and I'll say it now - when I'm on my death bed, I won't ask for a copy of my bank statement. I'll ask for pictures of my family during the best times of our life. If I can make more of those happy memories on a boat, writing a check to the credit union every month seems to be a very small price to pay.

I'm Duppy Fly Co, and I approve this message.


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## fatman (Nov 23, 2012)

duppyzafari said:


> I have said it before on this forum, and I'll say it now - when I'm on my death bed, I won't ask for a copy of my bank statement. I'll ask for pictures of my family during the best times of our life. If I can make more of those happy memories on a boat, writing a check to the credit union every month seems to be a very small price to pay.
> 
> I'm Duppy Fly Co, and I approve this message.


As the inimitable Justin Wilson once said: "Never seen an armored car in a funeral procession"


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## marshrat (Feb 22, 2018)

Sometimes these discussions just set up false choices. The choice is probably not buy (outright or finance) a $60K skiff or sit at home and do nothing. How many threads are there where guys chime in about how much they miss their old jon boat? 

If you've got a net worth of many millions of dollars, and you choose to finance a skiff to keep $40-60K in the market, that is a fundamentally different choice than someone with a negative net worth but $40k in cash that they are debating whether to keep on hand as an emergency fund, invest, or spend in cash on a boat. It's also different than someone with no cash on hand but a spare $300 a month that they can shoehorn into a payment on a note. And there are thousands of degrees in between each of those. 

I wholly embrace the attitude of living in the present, but there is an inherent danger to living like there's no tomorrow. More often than not, there is.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

Ok, here's a general summary of how I did it and how the numbers work for me. The numbers are rounded off and this is simplified but close enough for discussion sake.
My skiff was $50,000. We financed $40k for 5 years at 2% on a special rate deal I was able to jump on through a credit union. The monthly payment is $330.
My collective investments have a current average annual return of 20% (I checked this morning before posting this thread). Now this includes my continued contribution to my accounts as well as investment growth, but it is still strong net positive growth and I make those contributions out of my pay (pre and post tax) so I don't include that money in my budget.
We are tripling up on the monthly payments and will have the skiff paid off in two more years, if we continue to make payment and don't just pay it off. 
While I could have written a check for the boat, it is cheaper for me to use the credit union's money and pay $1000 per month than for me to have ripped $50k out of my accounts and lose the interest on that money.
The old adage of don't finance toys has merit but it is because most people don't have the financial discipline to evaluate how much they can really afford and continue with the accelerated payments to pay off the debt early. We have no credit card debt, the truck and Jeeps are paid for, and the house was paid off last year, 14 years early. 

Regardless of what you do, it's your money, your decision and no one is living your life for you, so take all this advice with a grain of salt. Make informed decisions for yourself.


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## Copahee Hound (Dec 21, 2017)

devrep said:


> fortunately none of you guys espousing the financing of expensive toys were my financial advisor. finance your house (hopefully with a decent down payment). finance your vehicle if you must. I get the "life is too short to not have fun" thing but there are many ways to enjoy fishing without a butt load of debt. I have several friends and a bunch of family members who are either working well beyond retirement age or are not living comfortably in retirement because "life is too short" and they made no effort to prepare. life is too short to save enough money for your old age if you fuck up.


Ha! My advisor hates me... *My opinion is within your means.* If you want to finance, do it, but be in a position to put more towards principal and pay it off early. We currently do this on our house, made double payments on vehicles and toys, and only left with a mortgage.

My mother in law retired 6 years ago, and was set up to do whatever the hell she wanted to do for the rest of her life. She only enjoyed 3 years of retirement and 2 of those were battling cancer. Life is too dang short!

"I'm goin out with nothin, just like I came in" -Cody Jinks

Edit, sorry Dev, didn't mean to quote you


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## attitudeindicator (Sep 8, 2020)

In my opinion if you can have passive income pay for the loan then go for it. If you don’t have passive income pay cash. If you make so much in passive income that you can buy a 30k boat every month then do whatever you like... I sometimes finance my toys but I make sure I don’t have to use any of my earned income to do it.


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## Czech_Mate (Jan 4, 2019)




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## hipshot (Sep 29, 2018)

I financed my boat. My home is paid off. My vehicle is paid off. I am pumping up my savings to buy a new home; and the boat will be paid off early, once I get a house taken care of. For my particular set of circumstances financing the boat was the best solution.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

devrep said:


> also, your monthly payment on a 45K loan at 6% would be more like 230.00 and the total interest paid on the 45K over 84 months would be 19K. spending 19K to borrow 45K on a small boat that most guys will use sporadically at best once the shine wears off doesn't sound like fun. bad enough to do it on a vehicle. are people even getting 6% loans on boats?


$45K amortized over 7 years at 6% is a monthly payment of $657.38. Multiply that by 84 and the total payout is $55,219.92. Subtract $45,000 and it's $10,219.92. Divide that by 7 and you're at $1,459.99 per year. If I can figure out how to post the Excel model I did I'll do so but running financial models (specifically for commercial real estate) is a massive part of my day job (commercial real estate brokerage & development).

So, I can save up or pull money out of my funds and pay cash (which I can) but then I lose the return on that $45K I have in investments that's currently running better than 25% year-over-year in my NASDAQ funds. I'd make more in one year on those funds just sitting in the market than the total amount of interest I'd pay on that note over 7 years.

I get that it takes discipline but at the current cost of debt and the performance of the market it makes zero sense to not finance.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> $45K amortized over 7 years at 6% is a monthly payment of $657.38. Multiply that by 84 and the total payout is $55,219.92. Subtract $45,000 and it's $10,219.92. Divide that by 7 and you're at $1,459.99 per year. If I can figure out how to post the Excel model I did I'll do so but running financial models (specifically for commercial real estate) is a massive part of my day job (commercial real estate brokerage & development).
> 
> So, I can save up or pull money out of my funds and pay cash (which I can) but then I lose the return on that $45K I have in investments that's currently running better than 25% year-over-year in my NASDAQ funds. I'd make more in one year on those funds just sitting in the market than the total amount of interest I'd pay on that note over 7 years.
> 
> I get that it takes discipline but at the current cost of debt and the performance of the market it makes zero sense to not finance.


when I state my opinions on this I'm not targeting folks like you who can probably pay cash if you want. sounds like you are already set up for your "golden" years. my hope is that my advice is heard by some of the younger people on here who are tempted to finance a boat when they have no acorns stashed yet. it happens all the time. those young people can buy a basic boat and still have a great time fishing. if they don't make preparations early they will not make it happen, esp with the way things are going. there is a coordinated effort underway to bring the US dollar down to the value of all the 3rd world countries. if even one young person gets this message and puts themselves and their family in a good place for their retirement I would be happy. over and out.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

@devrep - that's fair and I'm not trying to be hostile in any way. Just that there's more than one way to skin a cat. I'm 44 and honestly, I'll probably never truly retire. Not because I won't be able to but because I'll still want to be doing deals. Both of my mentors when I broke into commercial real estate were guys in their 70's (one early-70's, one late-70's) who had a combined net worth that was probably close to $100MM but they both still suited up almost every day and came into the office because they were addicted to doing deals. They just weren't grinding any more but being selective and doing the deals they wanted to do.

And, I get where you're coming from. But, even if you're younger if you've got a good career going and finances in order and are disciplined there's nothing wrong with financing. There's no single correct answer.


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## fjmaverick (Sep 18, 2015)

I financed my car with Suncoast. Hard to beat 2%...


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

fjmaverick said:


> I financed my car with Suncoast. Hard to beat 2%...



I _do_ have friends that have zero problem BORROWING money at zero percent citing that "I'm going to use their money", but are diametrically opposed to BORROWING money at 2%. You owe money in either case.


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## Str8-Six (Jul 6, 2015)

Most of my worst investment decisions involved me allowing other people’s opinions to influence me. On the other hand, my best decisions usually involved no ones opinion but my own. For this reason, I think it’s best to do your own homework and make a decision based on your situation.

“My idea of a group decision is to look in the mirror”
Warren Buffett


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## fjmaverick (Sep 18, 2015)

Sublime said:


> I _do_ have friends that have zero problem BORROWING money at zero percent citing that "I'm going to use their money", but are diametrically opposed to BORROWING money at 2%. You owe money in either case.


Most people have zero problem with 0%. Most of those deals expire at a certain date then increase to a normal rate. No one lends at 0%.

There was an old guy in my hometown called 10% Ed. Made an honest living writing personal loans at 10%.


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

fjmaverick said:


> Most people have zero problem with 0%. Most of those deals expire at a certain date then increase to a normal rate. No one lends at 0%.



I was thinking in terms of new cars. Just saying whether your APR is 0% or 12%, you owe the lender. In the latter case, you will owe more. I've had friends say they won't borrow money for xyz, but let a dealer offer 0% and they can't resist. Of course, most of the time if they offer 0% they won't give some of the other rebates, so it is all probably a wash.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Sublime said:


> I was thinking in terms of new cars. Just saying whether your APR is 0% or 12%, you owe the lender. In the latter case, you will owe more. I've had friends say they won't borrow money for xyz, but let a dealer offer 0% and they can't resist. Of course, most of the time if they offer 0% they won't give some of the other rebates, so it is all probably a wash.


Buying cars is the worst in my opinion I would rather get a sharp stick in the eye than deal with a car salesman. Thankfully I haven't had to do it in a few years.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> I don't know about y'all but I can damn sure put that $1500 per year to much better use in an investment vehicle that will earn me a 10% return annually.
> 
> Do that and the money you've saved by financing puts you over $1500 ahead where you would have been paying cash.


Math is not adding up.

10% on $1,500 is $150= $1,350 behind

Not to mention if you are getting a 10% ROI then you are taking huge risk playing with junk bonds as there is nothing of quality paying 10% dividends.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

DuckNut said:


> Math is not adding up.
> 
> 10% on $1,500 is $150= $1,350 behind
> 
> Not to mention if you are getting a 10% ROI then you are taking huge risk playing with junk bonds as there is nothing of quality paying 10% dividends.


Why are you subtracting 10%? 

Plenty of index funds returning 10% annually.

And the point is that if you financed 100% of that amount you’re effectively paying $1500 interest per year built into your payment. So you’re keeping $1500 per year cash in your pocket (ie- investments). That $1500 annual contribution to investments at 10% year-over-year provides a significant benefit over and above the cost of that debt, in this case about $10,220. Even if you didn’t invest it and just saved it, $1500 x 7 = $10,500 so just sticking it in a savings account has a marginal benefit.

Or let’s say you have the ability to set $1000 per month towards a boat. You can save for almost 4 years and pay cash. Or finance it as I’ve illustrated and still put $300 per month into an investment that will grow while you have the boat too.

I’m not saying this is the right move for everybody but there’s no one, single right answer. I can pay cash but similar to @jay.bush1434 above it makes no sense when I really dig into the numbers.


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## TheFrequentFlier (Feb 17, 2016)

duppyzafari said:


> I really appreciate the diversity of thought expressed above - one of the reasons that I love this forum is the extreme infrequency of the toxic negativity that seems to be the entire point of many other forums. Lots of good dudes (and a few dudettes) here expressing differences of opinions in respectful ways.
> 
> Here are a few of my thoughts - and I welcome further discussion.
> 
> ...


This is the most candid, articulate and sensible/diplmatic post i've read in a while...Thank you for sharing! Truly good stuff. I get the whole Dave Ramsey argument, but also understand the opposite end of the spectrum. Ultimately, based on YOUR own PERSONAL risk decisions and how much CASH you wish to have on hand, you have to make your own choices. I will say, whether it's a house, car, or boat, you NEED to be putting down enough money to ensure that for the life of the loan you can always cash out and not be under water. 

(as an aside, if you bought a boat a few years ago, it might have actually APPRECIATED, just like a used car....crazy times, but likely not the norm, and def wouldn't count on in for your financial planning)


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## SS06 (Apr 6, 2021)

My previous boat was financed when I had it built. When I sold 6 years later I did the math on what I had paid for the boat ( including 3.5% interest at Space Coast Credit Union) and what it sold for....that boat cost me less than $2000 per year for a whole lot of fun, and many trips fishing around the state. Thats not a whole lot of money when looking at a lot of other expenses associated with "fun" and extra curricular activities. Be smart, plan for the future, and live life to the fullest.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

DuckNut said:


> Math is not adding up.
> 
> 10% on $1,500 is $150= $1,350 behind
> 
> Not to mention if you are getting a 10% ROI then you are taking huge risk playing with junk bonds as there is nothing of quality paying 10% dividends.


Just did a quick waterfall on the payout here.

First, the $10,200 in interest on the note over the 7 years is basically a known figure in this assumed scenario.

If you're disciplined enough to put that $1500 each year into a fund averaging 10% then you actually total up $14,230 over those same 7 years. So you're $4K to the positive.


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## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

SS06 said:


> My previous boat was financed when I had it built. When I sold 6 years later I did the math on what I had paid for the boat ( including 3.5% interest at Space Coast Credit Union) and what it sold for....that boat cost me less than $2000 per year for a whole lot of fun, and many trips fishing around the state. Thats not a whole lot of money when looking at a lot of other expenses associated with "fun" and extra curricular activities. Be smart, plan for the future, and live life to the fullest.


In 2001 I bought a simple Carolina Skiff J16. Rigged with motor trailer platform etc I had about $7,000 in the boat and paid cash. I insured it with an agreed upon value policy for that $7,000, with the most recent increase I had, that policy was $113 a year. I ran that boat hard for 18 years, often thinking I wanted a nicer skiff, but never really being able to convice myself to spend the money. Finally toward the end of 2019 I had made up my mind that I would get a new (to me) skiff the following spring. Well the day after Thanksgiving 2019 I was in an accident on the highway that totaled the boat (didn't do anything to my vehicle). Insurance paid me the $7000 so my cost on the boat was $113 per year. 

The accident moved up my timetable on getting a new skiff by about 3 or 4 months, but that $7k was more money than I would have ever been able to get for the old boat (at least twice as much), so that went toward my down payment. I fell into a great deal on my current skiff and got it for a bit less than it was actually worth and with the down payment I had I have a tiny note so I don't see ever being upside down in it. Worked out well for me.


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## jboriol (Jan 2, 2010)

Wasn’t the original post sharing a great interest rate? What’s that got to do with advice on whether or not to finance a boat? 

Anyone who buys a boat in the first place has poor financial IQ anyway so we are all Dave Ramsey dropouts 🤑


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> Just did a quick waterfall on the payout here.
> 
> First, the $10,200 in interest on the note over the 7 years is basically a known figure in this assumed scenario.
> 
> If you're disciplined enough to put that $1500 each year into a fund averaging 10% then you actually total up $14,230 over those same 7 years. So you're $4K to the positive.


Show us a list of fixed income paying 10%.

Otherwise you are taking risk and you could lose 40+ % and be in the hole a lot deeper.


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## PTLuv2Fish (Feb 10, 2021)

SS06 said:


> On several forums over the years I have seen similar posts and its always the same responses...."Don't finance toys", "Invest your money", etc, etc.
> 
> Not everyone is sitting on $40k cash, but are working hard. With the cost of skiffs now financing may be the only means to get a skiff. Hell a lot of you giving that advice probly bought your first (starter) homes for less than $50k....my 25 year old son is now looking for his first home and in Central Florida his "starter home" is looking in the neighborhood of $200k...I see no problem financing whatever dream you have as long as you don't over extend yourself and plan for your future. Life is to short to not fulfill at least some of your dreams and have some fun.


I financed a small bass boat when I was in my early 20's, I could afford the payment and me and a couple of fishing buddies fished the crap out of that boat. In a few years I was reassigned overseas and sold it, payed the loan off but was 500 dollars upside down. Do you really think I gave a crap about that? No I made a lifetime of memories fishing and having a great time for 3 years. Yes people need to be able to afford debt and it's not a good idea to overextend yourself or take away from your family to have the latest toys. But you get one pass thru this life and your never coming back again. Don't rain on someone's party with your advice unless they ask for it.


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## scissorhands (Apr 8, 2012)

4 words. Get the damn boat!


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

DuckNut said:


> Show us a list of fixed income paying 10%.
> 
> Otherwise you are taking risk and you could lose 40+ % and be in the hole a lot deeper.


Who’s talking fixed-income? Bonds are low-risk, low-return. I’m talking index funds and there are literally hundreds which average 10% annually. Sure, there’s short-term risk at times but for the long play, stay in and you’ll always make money.

Personally, I don’t dick around with individual stocks with anything more than a little fun money here and then but index funds and the Warren Buffett model of picking solid, dividend paying assets and let them ride.

Even if you took a bath on paper in recent corrections the market has always come back stronger and with more gains. And if you’ve got cash when the market tanks go buy everything you can. The time to buy is when there’s blood in the streets, even if it’s your own.


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## Whistu (May 15, 2021)

PTLuv2Fish said:


> I financed a small bass boat when I was in my early 20's, I could afford the payment and me and a couple of fishing buddies fished the crap out of that boat. In a few years I was reassigned overseas and sold it, payed the loan off but was 500 dollars upside down. Do you really think I gave a crap about that? No I made a lifetime of memories fishing and having a great time for 3 years. Yes people need to be able to afford debt and it's not a good idea to overextend yourself or take away from your family to have the latest toys. But you get one pass thru this life and your never coming back again. Don't rain on someone's party with your advice unless they ask for it.


Have to agree with this sentiment.

Also, one's money and what they choose to spend it on should be a decision made Solely by the person who's money it is. One could argue that going out to dinner and paying 3X the price for food you could make at home is a ridiculous use of money. I could add more examples but it'd be a long list. 

Thanks to the original poster for some good information!


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

Dave Ramsey sucks. He takes credit cards on his website but says don't use credit. The irony.


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## Mark H (Nov 22, 2016)

GG34 said:


> Dave Ramsey sucks. He takes credit cards on his website but says don't use credit. The irony.


Well it's a long story. I suppose if he allows you to use the debit cards he approves of to buy stuff on his site, how's he going to stop a credit card but whatever. You have to realize two things about Dave. One, he's talking to the financial equivalent of alcoholics so he has to say NO credit to them. Two, his opinions about debt were formed when he used short term debt to buy long term assets and went broke. Problem wasn't the debt. To quote a Ramsey saying, he did stupid with zeros. Problem is he drew the wrong lesson. The stupid was HOW he used debt. He is very very good when it comes to getting out of debt and budgeting. Where I part ways with Dave is investing. As to borrowing money for depreciating assets, yeah it doesn't make sense in terms of building wealth unless you use that depreciating asset in your business. Does it make sense in terms of lifestyle choices? Each of you have to make your own call. Buy it and enjoy it, while you and your kids are young. Or buy a rent house and let that rent house pay your boat note with cash flow while it appreciates. Or focus on becoming wealthy. The self made wealthy I know focused on little else. On the other hand, Billy Sandifer didn't have much besides a full life that I could see but I think he lived his best life given the cards he was dealt. Depends on your goals and who and what you are responsible for. Tell me what your goals are and I'll offer advice if I think I can. 

I'm reminded of an old man long dead who spent literally every day of quail season hunting pretty much his whole life. He was a gauger and knew every landowner around. He would gauge in the morning, hunt in the middle of the day and gauge in the evening. Carried nothing in the field but a .410. Didn't have much but he and his wife were comfortable. Turned down promotions for his lifestyle choice. Just about every wealthy man in the county spoke of him with envy long after he was gone.

Just make sure your plans and actions agree with your goals. Find people who have accomplished what you want to accomplish and follow their map. Don't take financial advice from broke people. Don't take fishing advice from people who don't catch fish.


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## Mark H (Nov 22, 2016)

jay.bush1434 said:


> My collective investments have a current average annual return of 20% .


 I know how to do just that and more in real estate. How are you doing it?


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## Mark H (Nov 22, 2016)

Copahee Hound said:


> Ha! My advisor hates me... *My opinion is within your means.* If you want to finance, do it, but be in a position to put more towards principal and pay it off early. We currently do this on our house,


 What does your house pay you on a monthly basis as an investment? What would the equity in your house pay you on a monthly basis as an investment in the market or in rental property instead of just sitting there?


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## Mark H (Nov 22, 2016)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> Why are you subtracting 10%?
> 
> Plenty of index funds returning 10% annually.
> 
> ...


Yeah but most people don't follow that or won't follow that. Everyone knows life is shorter and poorer if you are fat and yet here we are. Everyone knows life is better and longer with regular exercise and yet...

Your math and your points are right but most of us lack the discipline. Money and investments are easy. It's people who are hard.


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

A lot of older people (I'm old) are still in the debt is bad camp because rates were outrageous back in the day. My house is at 2%. Absolutely no reason to pay extra. That extra money will make way more in the current market. Debt is good if used appropriately. Just like anything else. The cash for everything crowd is missing the boat. I'd rather pay a couple hundred extra a year for a toy/car and dump the 30k into an investment.


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## Mark H (Nov 22, 2016)

TheFrequentFlier said:


> This is the most candid, articulate and sensible/diplmatic post i've read in a while...Thank you for sharing! Truly good stuff. I get the whole Dave Ramsey argument, but also understand the opposite end of the spectrum. Ultimately, based on YOUR own PERSONAL risk decisions and how much CASH you wish to have on hand, you have to make your own choices. I will say, whether it's a house, car, or boat, you NEED to be putting down enough money to ensure that for the life of the loan you can always cash out and not be under water.
> 
> (as an aside, if you bought a boat a few years ago, it might have actually APPRECIATED, just like a used car....crazy times, but likely not the norm, and def wouldn't count on in for your financial planning)


Yeah we just sold wife's two year old car because of the stupid prices. Downside I'm driving the back up that was meant for a surf fishing rig till prices calm down again while she drives my new truck.  Seemed like a good idea at the time.


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## Mark H (Nov 22, 2016)

redchaser said:


> In 2001 I bought a simple Carolina Skiff J16. Rigged with motor trailer platform etc I had about $7,000 in the boat and paid cash. I insured it with an agreed upon value policy for that $7,000, with the most recent increase I had, that policy was $113 a year. I ran that boat hard for 18 years, often thinking I wanted a nicer skiff, but never really being able to convice myself to spend the money. Finally toward the end of 2019 I had made up my mind that I would get a new (to me) skiff the following spring. Well the day after Thanksgiving 2019 I was in an accident on the highway that totaled the boat (didn't do anything to my vehicle). Insurance paid me the $7000 so my cost on the boat was $113 per year.
> 
> The accident moved up my timetable on getting a new skiff by about 3 or 4 months, but that $7k was more money than I would have ever been able to get for the old boat (at least twice as much), so that went toward my down payment. I fell into a great deal on my current skiff and got it for a bit less than it was actually worth and with the down payment I had I have a tiny note so I don't see ever being upside down in it. Worked out well for me.


Awesome! Best rent house investment I ever made was the one that got blown up by the business next door. The right insurance is a big deal.


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## Charles Hadley (Jan 20, 2019)

New thread
Wife financing
Is it better to pay cash or finance over lifetime


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

Charles Hadley said:


> New thread
> Wife financing
> Is it better to pay cash or finance over lifetime


Only thing is that you never really pay off the wife.

For me, it's not so bad. I mean, I way outkicked my coverage so a Shrek-looking dude like me can't complain. As I recall from the Gospel of _Road House_, "life is too short to be married to an ugly woman."


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## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

Charles Hadley said:


> New thread
> Wife financing
> Is it better to pay cash or finance over lifetime


I got out of that market 10 years ago. Not looking to re-invest.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> Who’s talking fixed-income? Bonds are low-risk, low-return. I’m talking index funds and there are literally hundreds which average 10% annually. Sure, there’s short-term risk at times but for the long play, stay in and you’ll always make money.
> 
> Personally, I don’t dick around with individual stocks with anything more than a little fun money here and then but index funds and the Warren Buffett model of picking solid, dividend paying assets and let them ride.
> 
> Even if you took a bath on paper in recent corrections the market has always come back stronger and with more gains. And if you’ve got cash when the market tanks go buy everything you can. The time to buy is when there’s blood in the streets, even if it’s your own.


I am a retired S&P futures trader and I understand risk far more than the average cat. I like your enthusiasm but the reality is that when things are good people are confident, when things go south people freeze and ride the market down until they are scared shitless and then they sell.

Your statement above about "you'll always make money" is a statement which is so flawed I am not even going to comment beyond this. It simply is false and not true. 

There are a couple people on here that I have been helping and they have learned a lot and I believe the thing they learned the most about is managing risk.


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## Sonny Palma Sola (Jun 26, 2020)

Lots of interesting theories and positions about this, but I throw out the following for consideration by Florida residents. I have nearly always thought that it is best, for someone not able to pay cash for everything, to finance their toys and pay cash or put as much available cash in ones "Homestead". My reasoning is Article 10 Section 4 of the Florida Constitution which provides in part that the homestead is exempt from claims of creditors, unless they have a perfected security interest in it. This can be up to 160 acres in the County or 1/2 acre in the City with a dwelling located thereon. If you ever found yourself in a creditor claim situation equity in toys can become subject to attachment/execution and the homestead doesn't, therefore all the cash paid for it is protected. Obviously there are some moving parts with this that would need to be considered and everyones situation is different. Insurance can play a big part here, but in our litigious society sometimes insurance is not sufficent and with a judgment in excess of policy limits it becomes necessary to protect ones assets. Something to ponder.


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## Mark H (Nov 22, 2016)

DuckNut said:


> I am a retired S&P futures trader and I understand risk far more than the average cat. I like your enthusiasm but the reality is that when things are good people are confident, when things go south people freeze and ride the market down until they are scared shitless and then they sell.
> 
> Your statement above about "you'll always make money" is a statement which is so flawed I am not even going to comment beyond this. It simply is false and not true.
> 
> There are a couple people on here that I have been helping and they have learned a lot and I believe the thing they learned the most about is managing risk.


Like many investments, problem comes when you get in a bind for cash and have to liquidate assets like stocks or real estate at the wrong time and in a hurry. Or when emotion rules the day.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

Sonny Palma Sola said:


> Lots of interesting theories and positions about this, but I throw out the following for consideration by Florida residents. I have nearly always thought that it is best, for someone not able to pay cash for everything, to finance their toys and pay cash or put as much available cash in ones "Homestead". My reasoning is Article 10 Section 4 of the Florida Constitution which provides in part that the homestead is exempt from claims of creditors, unless they have a perfected security interest in it. This can be up to 160 acres in the County or 1/2 acre in the City with a dwelling located thereon. If you ever found yourself in a creditor claim situation equity in toys can become subject to attachment/execution and the homestead doesn't, therefore all the cash paid for it is protected. Obviously there are some moving parts with this that would need to be considered and everyones situation is different. Insurance can play a big part here, but in our litigious society sometimes insurance is not sufficent and with a judgment in excess of policy limits it becomes necessary to protect ones assets. Something to ponder.


so I guess it's ok to go into hock as long as you can cover your ass and screw your creditors.


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## Sonny Palma Sola (Jun 26, 2020)

You obviously missed my point, legitimate creditors you would be paying and not litigating with. What I was suggesting is the situation where you find yourself being sued and possibly having a judgment entered against you by some third party noncreditor. Call it covering you rear end or being smart you don't risk your place to live and that of your family. Plaintiff's lawyers are real and even though we have statutes to protect from frivolous suits there are plenty of hungry attorneys around looking for someone like you.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

DuckNut said:


> I am a retired S&P futures trader and I understand risk far more than the average cat. I like your enthusiasm but the reality is that when things are good people are confident, when things go south people freeze and ride the market down until they are scared shitless and then they sell.
> 
> Your statement above about "you'll always make money" is a statement which is so flawed I am not even going to comment beyond this. It simply is false and not true.
> 
> There are a couple people on here that I have been helping and they have learned a lot and I believe the thing they learned the most about is managing risk.


Thats fair. But you also hit on the 2 biggest things IMHO, and that’s the assessment of your risks and being able to separate your emotion so you don’t panic and sell.

There are always market corrections (and I believe we’re overdue now but that’s another discussion) and you lose money on paper in the short-term but holding on and not selling the market has always rebounded to higher levels such that over time (not always year over year) it increases. Of course, if you’re like my parents in their 70’s their portfolio is adjusted so they’re not at risk of being unable to recover.

For example, I lost a ton of money on paper in 2008-2009. But I didn’t sell and bought as much as I could and by 2019 the Dow nearly tripled from its low point in 2009. Did the same last year and all those paper losses have rebounded incredibly in a much shorter timeframe. 

I get that my perspective and situation isn’t universal but that’s really what I was trying to convey that running the analysis for myself to come to my personal solution isn’t the same for everyone but nor is it written in stone that you must pay cash for a boat.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Sonny Palma Sola said:


> Lots of interesting theories and positions about this, but I throw out the following for consideration by Florida residents. I have nearly always thought that it is best, for someone not able to pay cash for everything, to finance their toys and pay cash or put as much available cash in ones "Homestead". My reasoning is Article 10 Section 4 of the Florida Constitution which provides in part that the homestead is exempt from claims of creditors, unless they have a perfected security interest in it. This can be up to 160 acres in the County or 1/2 acre in the City with a dwelling located thereon. If you ever found yourself in a creditor claim situation equity in toys can become subject to attachment/execution and the homestead doesn't, therefore all the cash paid for it is protected. Obviously there are some moving parts with this that would need to be considered and everyones situation is different. Insurance can play a big part here, but in our litigious society sometimes insurance is not sufficent and with a judgment in excess of policy limits it becomes necessary to protect ones assets. Something to ponder.


There is also another way to prevent this from happening. Never have anything titled in your name and/or have property titled as "in it's entirety". This means that if someone was to sue the owner of a skiff they would have to prove that both owners of the skiff were equally negligent at the exact same time and that will never be possible. This goes for all property and bank accounts.

If you were driving in a car with your wife and you hit and killed someone it would protect you from suit because the passenger could never be found to equally negligent because she was not driving the car at the exact same time as you.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> Thats fair. But you also hit on the 2 biggest things IMHO, and that’s the assessment of your risks and being able to separate your emotion so you don’t panic and sell.
> 
> There are always market corrections (and I believe we’re overdue now but that’s another discussion) and you lose money on paper in the short-term but holding on and not selling the market has always rebounded to higher levels such that over time (not always year over year) it increases. Of course, if you’re like my parents in their 70’s their portfolio is adjusted so they’re not at risk of being unable to recover.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with your sentiment but I do disagree that the market will always come back - there will be a time it may not or may take decades.

What I do disagree with is your assumption of using a variable risk investment to counter a static interest rate. If I were to use your strategy today and in October the market shit the bed I am out money for an unknown period of time and the money used in the risk investment was needed to make the static payments the dealer would come looking for the boat.

Nothing has created as much wealth as the stock market. But keep this in mind. The greatest transfer of wealth happens on the downside of the market.


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## Charles Hadley (Jan 20, 2019)

Are skiffs worth more if you paid cash for them?


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## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

Charles Hadley said:


> Are skiffs worth more if you paid cash for them?


No but it can be easier to sell if you’re holding the title and don’t have to do a”pending payoff “ deal


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

How about this senerio even though the rates are low the boat prices are higher so are you really saving much money?


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Backcountry 16 said:


> How about this senerio even though the rates are low the boat prices are higher so are you really saving much money?


You won't be saving a whole lot. But there is a big difference between good debt and bad debt. Financing a depreciating asset is in the later category.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

DuckNut said:


> You won't be saving a whole lot. But there is a big difference between good debt and bad debt. Financing a depreciating asset is in the later category.


We all know what boat stands for


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## Sailfish_WC (Mar 7, 2019)

I’m amazed how many people have 30, 40k + just lying around


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## Sailfish_WC (Mar 7, 2019)

Backcountry 16 said:


> 1 sheet of plywood 6 2×4s
> 180.00
> One of my contractors doing a remodel. This inflation will be the end.


that right there blows my mind.
I have a hunt cabin I started. Once osb passed $15 a board I stopped.

I know a dude who can’t get a dishwasher for his restaurant.
the guy wanted $18hr to wash dishes.

with so much artificial money being pumped into the system, and interest rates being kept artificially low ...you’re right the inflation will get us

sorry for the derailment.


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## TravHale (May 17, 2019)

Here are rates from Legacy Credit Union


* Boat/Personal Watercraft** Term** APR***Payment *2019 – 2021Up to 48 MonthsAs low as 2.90%Monthly payment of $22.36 per $1,000.00 borrowed49 – 63 MonthsAs low as 2.90%Monthly payment of $17.51 per $1,000.00 borrowed64 – 75 MonthsAs low as 3.25%Monthly payment of $15.32 per $1,000.00 borrowed76 – 84 MonthsAs low as 4.25%Monthly payment of $14.31 per $1,000.00 borr


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## duppyzafari (Jul 9, 2015)

TravHale said:


> Here are rates from Legacy Credit Union
> 
> 
> * Boat/Personal Watercraft** Term** APR***Payment *2019 – 2021Up to 48 MonthsAs low as 2.90%Monthly payment of $22.36 per $1,000.00 borrowed49 – 63 MonthsAs low as 2.90%Monthly payment of $17.51 per $1,000.00 borrowed64 – 75 MonthsAs low as 3.25%Monthly payment of $15.32 per $1,000.00 borrowed76 – 84 MonthsAs low as 4.25%Monthly payment of $14.31 per $1,000.00 borr


Those are nice rates, but in order to get them you have to meet eligibility requirements for Legacy Credit Union, right? 

If you live, work, worship or attend school in Jefferson, Shelby, Blount, St. Clair, Walker, Chilton, and Bibb counties, you’re eligible for membership, but you're also several hours from the nearest redfish.


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## Jaterac (Jul 30, 2020)

When my car got paid off, i bought a boat. I took a loan out on my boat through my bank I already bank with. I paid it off in 1 year, no interest... And it made my credit score jump up almost 100 points. My boat was also under $16k so it was easy to do. I could see how a $50k could be different though.


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## rovster (Aug 21, 2018)

Been an interesting read. I’d be curious to see the ages of some of the posters on here as some of you spouting wisdom are definitely on a different stage in your life. Lots of you sound like my dad, lol.

For the record I’m 43 and my son is 10 and loves to fish. I’m looking to build and finance a skiff (my plan was to finance a portion of it and probably pay it off early). I recently paid off my small business loan, have no car payment, put a modest amount away for the future but paying for a new skiff cash would totally deplete my savings. But, I’m not getting any younger so I’m going in.

Not looking for advice but just sharing my “situation” to add some dimension here. Thanks for the good exchange!


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## Mark H (Nov 22, 2016)

rovster said:


> Been an interesting read. I’d be curious to see the ages of some of the posters on here as some of you spouting wisdom are definitely on a different stage in your life. Lots of you sound like my dad, lol.


No doubt.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

I'm 68. if I had listened to half of what my dad told me I'd be hella rich. I know I sound like a boring old fuck but I have had a lot of fun and I have a butt load of toys. I've never had debt other than houses and a very few vehicles. and I raised 3 children. I will admit that I had pretty much no toys during the child raising years.


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## rovster (Aug 21, 2018)

Well I'm 43 and have only had 3 cars in my lifetime, never a boat although I enjoy my dads as it if was my own. The skiff I'm getting will be my first and I hope to enjoy it for a LONG time. I'm probably due for a new car since my truck is pushing 180K but I've put off getting a toy for too long and me and my son are not getting any younger. 

Yeah in retrospect I've gotten a lot of advice in my life I should have taken but I think part of it is figuring it all out for yourself and hopefully you don't make any major booboos along the way.


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## finbully (Jan 26, 2013)

Backcountry 16 said:


> When the market drops at the end of the year( and it will). Hope you still have money put away for your toys if you finance I saw it in 06 a lot of people I know lost them big jacked up trucks/ bay boats.
> 
> 1 sheet of plywood 6 2×4s
> 180.00
> ...


The inflation won't stop with the current very low interest rates. Not much incentive right now for folks to avoid financing. As someone said here if you can make a greater return from your cash on investments than you pay out in fianacing interest, it's a good choice to finance assuming you have the working cash to otherwise pay in full. If you don't have the cash then the "not to finance" option is moot in terms of buying what you want.


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## cody0707 (Feb 24, 2017)

I’d love to have some of the boats I see here on these forums. I have 0 desire to finance a new toy though. For now my 1548 SeaArk gets it done.


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## T Bone (Jul 24, 2014)

cody0707 said:


> I’d love to have some of the boats I see here on these forums. I have 0 desire to finance a new toy though. For now my 1548 SeaArk gets it done.
> View attachment 176343


St. Marks lighthouse? 

Sweet rig!


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## cody0707 (Feb 24, 2017)

T Bone said:


> St. Marks lighthouse?
> 
> Sweet rig!


Sure is. Thanks


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## Sonny Palma Sola (Jun 26, 2020)

@rovster, 67 and holding.


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