# Cork vs Sealed Drags



## K3anderson

I've never done that maintenance to any my cork reels and they work fine. I probably should though. 

Maybe you can post a quick tutorial on how to do it and what products you need to do it. I'd personally appreciate it.


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## crboggs

The Tibor recommendation is explicit that you not use Neet Foot Oil on the cork. It may cause the cork to dry out. (Or so they say...) I use the Tibor Graphite Lube on the cork.

That said, what do you guys use on your spindle, pawls, clutch dogs, etc?


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## ifsteve

Abel has a full set of instructions. They specify pure neats foot oil and thats all I have used on my reels as long as I have owned them. And I have fought yellowfin, bluefin, and dogtooth tuna on them. Nothing is harder on a reel than a tuna and Ive never had an single issue with any of my reels.

http://www.abelreels.com/easy-care.html


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## Pierson

I believe the the materials in the cork differ slightly by brand (some are impregnated with other materials) so it makes sense different manufacturers will recommend different lubricants for their reels. Abel recommends neats foot oil for the drag surface, Tibor recommends Graphite Lube for all surfaces, Islander recommends Superlube synthetic oil for the drag surface and Superlube Teflon grease for the mechanical parts. I don't know what would happen if you used different grease/oil than what is recommended but since properly lubricating the cork drags is a huge part in making your reel function properly, I just stick with the recommended product for whatever reels I own.


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## RunningOnEmpty

I loved my old Islander fly reel and it was a cork drag.


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## crboggs

Pierson said:


> Abel recommends neats foot oil for the drag surface, Tibor recommends Graphite Lube for all surfaces, Islander recommends Superlube synthetic oil for the drag surface and Superlube Teflon grease for the mechanical parts.


I just got a response from Tibor...the recommendation for the mechanical parts is Super Lube.

Probably can't go wrong with either. But I'll save the graphite for the cork and super lube everything else.


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## sjrobin

The only reasons to go with any other reel than cork is cost and more importantly weight if you are casting a lot. For redfish or bonefish all day I prefer weight reduction. Tibor Everglades or Abel Supers will wear you down.


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## ifsteve

SJ just what reel do you favor then for redfish and bonefish? I looked at Nautilus and here are the specs.
XL Max - 4.7 oz
CCF-X2 6/8 - 7.6 oz
NV-G 7/8 - 6.6 oz

Abel Super 7/8N - 6.8 oz

And please tell me where I can go redfishing and/or bonefishing where I will get worn down from casting all day....I am looking for my next travel adventure.....


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## Jfack

just to play devils advocate (trust me I looooove the looks and feel of a tibor, not a huge abel fan though). Here are some shootouts I've found. Yes i know these don't say much, but one thing i liked was the startup inertia and drag smoothness check. Looks like the sealed drags came out on top on any of the shootouts i found. 
"*The Tibor and Abel did show us a very slight amount more start up inertia, but nothing that was a problem*" SO is the cork drag really so much smoother and nicer, or are you guys just backing it because you paid the big bucks and they've been around longer? The tibor i used felt fine, but i wasn't crazy impressed by the drag or anything. 

"*On the reels that do not have totally sealed drags, saltwater can get into even sealed ball bearings. You can trip in the rocks and bend something beyond repair or even break your handle clean off. Luckily all of the manufactures offer a Lifetime Warranty (for the original owner only) against all defects or problems that might arise, like water getting into the bearings.*"

So zero maintenance, and if a problem does arise who cares, send it in. We all have multiple rod/reel combos, pick up the other one if you need to go out in the week it's sent out. Ive yet to hear many complaints about sealed drag failures on here. And if they did fail I'm sure the reel made some noise or warning well before where it could have been sent in.

http://www.tridentflyfishing.com/blog/2013-8-weight-wt-challenge-fly-reel-review

https://www.yellowstoneangler.com/g...ander-abel-cheeky-loop-bauer-sage-lamsonreels


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## TheAdamsProject

Cork drags all the way for me. When I traveled for a living I knew something like my Billy Pate would never fail under any conditions whether dropped or mistreated. I have seen sealed drags fail in the Amazon and on flats at the edge of the earth. You are SOL at that point. What is worse than dropping the fancy lightweight reel and bending the frame? Me with a set of pliers bending it back out so you can use it on your vacation. 

And for the weight regarding Abels, Tibors and such... worn down, really? We have seen bonefish days in the 20's with a permit sprinkled in and what I would expect 100 casts at the most in one day. You guys are telling me you have to have a reel that weights 1.5oz~ less because you cant make 100 casts in a day sight fishing? How do you make it through a round a golf or maybe a round of sporting clays? Maybe Abel or Tibor can include little logoed 2.5lb dumb-bells like my grandma uses while she watches her stories.

In regards to maintenance, I use the Tibor lube you can buy from them and never had an issue.


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## K3anderson

HAHAHA


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## ifsteve

I wondered how long it would be before somebody posted up a link to the "unbiased' reviews by Yellowstone Angler. Amazing some guys actually buy into them.


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## K3anderson

Those "shootouts" are the most ridiculous things on the planet. The rod one is worse. "fun to fish" category?


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## K3anderson

ifsteve said:


> SJ just what reel do you favor then for redfish and bonefish? I looked at Nautilus and here are the specs.
> XL Max - 4.7 oz
> CCF-X2 6/8 - 7.6 oz
> NV-G 7/8 - 6.6 oz


I have an NV-G in an 8w and the CCF 12W. I still use the everglades 90% of the time on the 8W and the NV-G is the backup. Theyre both great. 

I bought the CCF silver King for the 12W because I didnt want to deal with the Pawl replacement. I have a cheeky backup. If I get another 12W for some reason it will be a Tibor.


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## Jfack

ifsteve said:


> I wondered how long it would be before somebody posted up a link to the "unbiased' reviews by Yellowstone Angler. Amazing some guys actually buy into them.



I totally get they aren't the best, but I'm not looking at who won, I'm looking at the drag testing, start up inertia and smoothness. 

Plus trident sells reels, why would they put less expensive reels above the Abel? Maybe better profit margins, but Id think the hatch and nautilus are pretty similar margins. 

Either way I'm just keeping this going, otherwise it'd just be y'all saying corks better end of convo. It very well may be.


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## Jfack

One final though and I'm out, 

Why are all the new high end reels not using cork if it's far superior? I'm guessing it cost the companies a lot more money to come up with a sealed drag system, and I'm also guessing it costs more in parts to make a sealed drag. Also, why is tibors latest a sealed drag reel? 

Not trying to say they're better or not, just honestly curious on those questions.


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## crboggs

Maybe a better question is "How many cork vs sealed reels does Tibor sell? What is the market asking for?"


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## Jfack

crboggs said:


> Maybe a better question is "How many cork vs sealed reels does Tibor sell? What is the market asking for?"


True, but to change their roots and put the money into making a sealed reel instead of a new lighter better cork reel seems funny. Anything tibor comes out with will sell.


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## Pierson

Well the idea of a sealed drag that requires no maintenance and is impervious to the elements sounds awesome! Many companies pursue this platform and do it quite well. Companies like Tibor and Abel saw pressure from these companies and their fans wanted a sealed drag from them as well. So both Tibor and Abel made their sealed drag series. I have no idea if they sell more of those than their classic draw bar drags but the point is they offer them. As time has passed anglers have come to love the sealed drags and buy more of them, or have found their shortcomings and have reverted to the classic draw bar cork drags. The fact that Tibor still makes the Billy Pate series shows you that many anglers see the value in the most classic design. Since different companies offer sealed and unsealed drags, everyone wins. Its all personal preference!


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## Blue Zone

On the subject of cork drags, does anyone know if there is source for the pre-cut cork?


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## coconutgroves

Jfack said:


> One final though and I'm out,
> 
> Why are all the new high end reels not using cork if it's far superior? I'm guessing it cost the companies a lot more money to come up with a sealed drag system, and I'm also guessing it costs more in parts to make a sealed drag. Also, why is tibors latest a sealed drag reel?
> 
> Not trying to say they're better or not, just honestly curious on those questions.


Tibor made the sealed drag to appeal to the customer who is concerned about their reel getting dunked. They've stated this. Many Tibor owners will even tell you the unsealed is the way to go.

I have never sent back any of my Tibors. They have never failed on me during a fight. They have never failed on me during a trip. I have back up parts I can replace myself if I am in a pinch. I cannot do that with a sealed drag.

Every sealed drag I have owned (Ross, Lamson and Nautilus) have been sent back. I had my new Nautilus drag not tighten down all the way within the first year. Love the reel, love the weight, love the inertia. What I don't like is spending $50 to send it back in shipping and insurance, then paying a $50 return fee. And I don't like learning about the drag issue on the nose of boat while a big ass permit is tailing 80' away, which is what happened. I loosen my drag before I store them, so I take care of it the way it is recommended.

There is a reason why cork has landed more world records than any other reel. It is a timeless, easy to service, minimal design. The start up inertia competes just as good with the best of the sealed.

While I fish both, for hard core salt water fish like tarpon and permit, cork is the way to go. For blue water fish, there is not even an argument. I watched a Ross Momentum 8 nearly melt on a 150lb marlin. No stopping power whatsoever on a fish of that size and speed. A Tibor would have handled it. That is a fish of a lifetime and I was under gunned thinking my sealed drag was one of the best on the market. That reel went back too.


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## el9surf

What about the Colton Torrent, it's an unsealed rulon drag. It has a world record mako on it.


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## K3anderson

[QUOTE="I have back up parts I can replace myself if I am in a pinch. I cannot do that with a sealed drag."[/QUOTE]

WHat back up parts do you have?


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## sjrobin

ifsteve said:


> SJ just what reel do you favor then for redfish and bonefish? I looked at Nautilus and here are the specs.
> XL Max - 4.7 oz
> CCF-X2 6/8 - 7.6 oz
> NV-G 7/8 - 6.6 oz
> 
> Abel Super 7/8N - 6.8 oz
> 
> And please tell me where I can go redfishing and/or bonefishing where I will get worn down from casting all day....I am looking for my next travel adventure.....


I should have included lighter Abel reels. I like Abel reels Steve. I have three Abels I use in the salt: Super 5N(5.2 oz) Super 6N (5.6) and two Ross Evolutions (4.8 oz) for all day lots of casting.(standing with a rod in hand) I rotate to larger reels for spaced casting intervals or winds NV 9/10 8.5 oz, Abel 9/10, 8.5 oz, Galvan T8 7.6 oz. I don't own a Everglades but I have fished them for hours straight with lots of casting and would have switched off at the end of the day if possible. Most of the rods I keep on the skiff are very light Meridians, Helios, NRX, and Asquith, I even have a Sage One 6 wt. I appreciate light weight and clients do also. For most people, super athletes excluded, the heavier the rod/reel combination the faster the casting form drops off during the day(especially when it is hot). Think of carrying 8 oz of lead vs 6 oz of lead in your hand for eight hours and pivoting your elbow every now and then. Light weight gear is really about the user's performance. I know we are not talking tarpon fishing but I suspect we all know several people that have returned from tarpon trips with sore elbows and shoulders from casting tarpon rigs.


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## ifsteve

SJ i agree that the casting falls off as a day wears on when you use heavy equipment and cast a lot. I have just never seen any saltwater experience where that was the case except blind casting structure for striped bass with a 10 wt. Bonefish and redfish? I can't fathom ever casting that much in a day to where anybody would get tired unless they never fish.


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## crboggs

So if you are looking for a cork drag on a 6wt, what are your options these days?

Tibor doesn't make the Freestone. 

The Abel 6N is laughably priced at $700 for the black finish...much less anything else.

What else is there?


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## el9surf

Abel's can be had on eBay for a lot less. I missed out on a brand new 7/8n on Wednesday, it went for $340.


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## sjrobin

ifsteve said:


> SJ i agree that the casting falls off as a day wears on when you use heavy equipment and cast a lot. I have just never seen any saltwater experience where that was the case except blind casting structure for striped bass with a 10 wt. Bonefish and redfish? I can't fathom ever casting that much in a day to where anybody would get tired unless they never fish.


It is not just the casting effort. Standing and trying to maintain balance on the bow of a light weight skiff in bright sun and wind takes a lot of unconscious energy. I have seen people get tired and sit down on the casting platform after casting to and fighting more than a few redfish. Grab bar and cage casting platforms allow the caster to stay up longer. I am sure I will need help one day if I live long enough.


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## ifsteve

SJ no doubt standing on the casting platform all day in the sun and wind can really take it out of you. I just don't see how an ounce or two in the reel is going to matter in that case with their casting performance. Their casting performance well may suffer and suffer a lot. But its not the reel weight causing the problem.

And FWIW I am to the point where I take two Aleve BEFORE I head out for a day. Like they say 'getting old isn't for sissies."


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## coconutgroves

el9surf said:


> Abel's can be had on eBay for a lot less. I missed out on a brand new 7/8n on Wednesday, it went for $340.


I picked up a new in box 7n for $400. I saw one go the week before for exactly $340, so you are right that they pop up often. Great reels for reds and bones. Lighter than the Tibor in the same class since the Abel is narrower, which took some time for me to get used to. I love some of the Abel custom finishes, but man they are pricey. Their flat black is awesome. Tibor makes this as well.

In regards to weight, I agree that lighter is better, but there has been many times where I've done nothing but cast a 12 wt with intermediate line and heavy flies day after day for poons. What I learned is that to compensate for the weight, increase the haul hand to lessen the work the rod hand has to do. This same principle can be used on any weight rod. When this style of casting is done correctly, there is little to no fatigue. So that extra 1.5 to 2 ounces really doesn't make that big a difference.


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## coconutgroves

K3anderson said:


> WHat back up parts do you have?


You can buy any part directly from it Tibor. I have nearly enough to replace the inside of the reel completely.


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## sjrobin

coconutgroves said:


> I picked up a new in box 7n for $400. I saw one go the week before for exactly $340, so you are right that they pop up often. Great reels for reds and bones. Lighter than the Tibor in the same class since the Abel is narrower, which took some time for me to get used to. I love some of the Abel custom finishes, but man they are pricey. Their flat black is awesome. Tibor makes this as well.
> 
> In regards to weight, I agree that lighter is better, but there has been many times where I've done nothing but cast a 12 wt with intermediate line and heavy flies day after day for poons. What I learned is that to compensate for the weight, increase the haul hand to lessen the work the rod hand has to do. This same principle can be used on any weight rod. When this style of casting is done correctly, there is little to no fatigue. So that extra 1.5 to 2 ounces really doesn't make that big a difference.


Yes sir I use the 6N and Evolutions on 8 wts. The 5N's on 6 wts. Nice balance. I have bought three Abels from the Microskiff classifieds.


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## crboggs

crboggs said:


> What else is there?


Never mind. 
View media item 1547


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## redchaser

I recently saw a picture of a Tibor that had been lost overboard and sat in salt water for a very long time. The reel was dirty and there was some corrossion on teh outside of the spool, but when they opened the reel up, the back side of the spool where the drag was had remained spotless. While not technically a "sealed drag" when properly greased that drag washer basically adheres to the back of the spool creating it's own seal that water isn't likely to penetrate.


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## jmrodandgun

redchaser said:


> I recently saw a picture of a Tibor that had been lost overboard and sat in salt water for a very long time. The reel was dirty and there was some corrossion on teh outside of the spool, but when they opened the reel up, the back side of the spool where the drag was had remained spotless. While not technically a "sealed drag" when properly greased that drag washer basically adheres to the back of the spool creating it's own seal that water isn't likely to penetrate.


The reel you are thinking of was a Jack Charlton Mako. 5 months on the seabed.


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## redchaser

jmrodandgun said:


> The reel you are thinking of was a Jack Charlton Mako. 5 months on the seabed.


That's impressive, but the picture I saw was of a Tibor, it wasn't the reel you ahve pictured.


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## jmrodandgun

> Words from the guy who found the reel - "I haven't really messed with getting the worm tubes and barnacles off yet. I will say the drag "wheel", for lack of a better term, was all packed with sand. I soaked it over night and blasted it out with some water and air really quick and it works unbelievable. As far as I can tell it is in perfect working order!! Absolutely Amazing. Once I get all the growth off I plan to fish it with little hesitation. I may have to craft a new handle since the wood has split but other than that me and the guys at our shop just can't believe this!"
> The reel was sent to Jack for inspection and here's what he had to say:
> "I now have the subject reel and it is the same reel I shipped to so many months ago.Except for the violation of the surface by barnacles etc. everything is a Mako Reel and could be spooled tomorrow and fished. The interior is dry as a bone and the drag settings are at factory levels. I must admit it is gratifying to see these results but frankly I am more amazed by the fact that in the industrial world of things it is extremely rare to have a nature field testing of the advertised attributes of a product."


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## TheAdamsProject

jmrodandgun said:


> The reel you are thinking of was a Jack Charlton Mako. 5 months on the seabed.


Not to take anything from that Mako but the reel he was referring to was this Tibor Pacific that spent 3 years on the seafloor.

https://www.facebook.com/tiborreels...618896474315/1130091330360395/?type=3&theater


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## redchaser

As posted by Tibor


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## jmrodandgun

Woah


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## rjackh90

So what about for the average guy fishing local waters for redfish? Hatch or Nautilus < Tibor or Abel?


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## redchaser

All of those are awesome reels


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## rjackh90

redchaser said:


> All of those are awesome reels


I like my ccf x2 a lot. But I am not traveling around the world with it.


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## sjrobin

rjackh90 said:


> So what about for the average guy fishing local waters for redfish? Hatch or Nautilus < Tibor or Abel?


For slot reds, I would fish the lightest versions of those reels and include the Ross Evolution LT.
Which means the 6/7 models for the 8 wt rods and 5/6 for 6 wts. Backing capacity is certainly not critical for redfish but a smooth powerful drag is nice to have.


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## 994

rjackh90 said:


> So what about for the average guy fishing local waters for redfish? Hatch or Nautilus < Tibor or Abel?


If you're just starting out look at the 2200 series from Sage. Under $200 bucks. I've had a 2280 on a backup rod that gets heavily abused and it still is as good as new (mechanically). I think I paid $125 from the local fly shop. Most slot reds willbe handled on hand line any way.


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## RTmoss

ifsteve said:


> I wondered how long it would be before somebody posted up a link to the "unbiased' reviews by Yellowstone Angler. Amazing some guys actually buy into them.


I've actually read that one too, but the assumption there is the tested reels are perfect represnetative of the model. One like my orvis reel made in Korea may not have the same consistent quality in every unit. Not an issue in my backyard, but on vacation it is a big deal.


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## rjackh90

I don't need another redfish reel at the moment. I'm just wondering if the benefits of cork mentioned earlier in this thread hold for the average person fishing for average fish and not carrying the reel to some remote place.


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## ifsteve

rjackh90 said:


> I don't need another redfish reel at the moment. I'm just wondering if the benefits of cork mentioned earlier in this thread hold for the average person fishing for average fish and not carrying the reel to some remote place.


Only each individual can answer that question. The pros and cons have been pretty well laid out in this thread. To me it comes down to the old adage, buy once and cry once.


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## Blue Zone

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd give this another try here. 

I'm promoting my son from an ancient Medalist to an Old Florida #3 I had lying around which could use a new drag. _Anyone know a source for cork drags?_


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## el9surf

Blue Zone said:


> Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd give this another try here.
> 
> I'm promoting my son from an ancient Medalist to an Old Florida #3 I had lying around which could use a new drag. _Anyone know a source for cork drags?_


Call Nautilus, they still have the cork drag washers for the old Florida reels.


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## Steve_Mevers

ifsteve said:


> SJ i agree that the casting falls off as a day wears on when you use heavy equipment and cast a lot. I have just never seen any saltwater experience where that was the case except blind casting structure for striped bass with a 10 wt. Bonefish and redfish? I can't fathom ever casting that much in a day to where anybody would get tired unless they never fish.


Gear has come a long way, my first quality fly reel was a Fin Nor 8/9 cork reel, talk about heavy! I have both cork and sealed, my next new reel will be a cork reel.


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## Blue Zone

el9surf said:


> Call Nautilus, they still have the cork drag washers for the old Florida reels.


Thanks. Forgot about Nautilus. Sent them a note and will call Monday.


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## lemaymiami

Since I've been around a while (my next b'day will have a 70 attached...) I've owned and used a variety of reels (and I actually have two reels for each line size rod a left and a right hand reel from an 8wt up to a 12wt - the last one needed to complete the set will be a left hand 7wt...)-both with cork and the newer sealed drags.... Here's the only differences I've noted.... Yes, a cork drag will periodically need a bit of maintenance - you'll do no maintenance on a properly working sealed drag (and if maintenance is needed, the factory is your best bet...).

I have had great performance from both of my Pates ( a Bonefish and a Tarpon model) and they're flat out my first choice if I'm headed far from fly shops and modern mail systems.... All of my Nautilus reels have been outstanding as well (and it's nice being thirty minutes from where they're made....) for sealed drag reels. I even have a few Old Florida reels still in service (solid cork drag reels...) but with them there's a caution... Leave one out in a driving rain (or get too enthusiastic with the freshwater hose.....) and you'll need to dry it out to restore the drag to proper function. That lovely cork drag on the Old Florida simply is too accessible to water in heavy rain and you lose 90% of your drag when the cork gets wet. The Pate reels, although they have a similar good solid cork drag simply don't allow water to get to the cork because of the design... so they never have that problem at all.... The easiest remedy for the Old Florida's vulnerability is to keep it in the reel cover when not in use if rain is coming... 

All of the toys we use on the water come with drawbacks of one kind or another since you rarely gain a specific advantage without giving up something else (that goes for boats, motors, rods, reels... they're all a compromise...). What I find just fine standing on the bow of a skiff might not be what I'd want if I'm going to be wading six or seven hours and carrying my rod in hand... That's one of the reasons I still have one of the old STH lever drag reels (one of the original larger models that will hold an 8 or 9wt line and lots of backing while still remaining so light that it's a pleasure to have in hand for hours at a time...) even though they're a bit fragile compared to a machined bar stock reel.... Note as well that the only reason I have two reels for each rod is because more than half of my anglers these days prefer to wind their reels with their weak hand - but that's another argument entirely.... I was taught (all those years ago) that you wind with your strong hand in saltwater.....


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## ifsteve

lemaymiami said:


> I was taught (all those years ago) that you wind with your strong hand in saltwater.....


....and I was taught all those years ago to fight the fish with our strong arm......but we have debated that on here a lot over the years......good to see your still doing it strong Capt Bob. Hope I can be doing the same in a few years when I have a birthday that starts with a 7!!


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## Danny Moody

I made a full switch from Tibor cork drags to Nautilus' ceramic brake system on the NV-G series. I absolutely love them and have put them to the test with some blistering runs. I have all the respect for companies like Tibor and Abel but ceramic is the way to to go.


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## Steve_Mevers

Interesting thread. I am thinking about buying an Abel Super 7/8 for a Meridian 8wt, has anyone matched those two together yet? If so are you happy with the setup? I find that in Florida I use an 8wt 75% of the time, so I decided to lay out a few $$$ for a nice outfit.


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## sjrobin

I use the Abel super 7 on the 8 wt NRX. Pretty good combination. The new Ross Evolution has worked well so far and is super light on the NRX 7 wt.


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## bryson

I have an Alutecnos 6wt reel that is constructed like most of the cork drag reels, but also has a carbon fiber drag that I can drop in.

I'm not saying it's better (I have actually only used the cork drag so far, not to mention I haven't had a fish on that reel that really tested the drag), it's just an interesting option.


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## ifsteve

bryson said:


> I have an Alutecnos 6wt reel that is constructed like most of the cork drag reels, but also has a carbon fiber drag that I can drop in.
> 
> I'm not saying it's better (I have actually only used the cork drag so far, not to mention I haven't had a fish on that reel that really tested the drag), it's just an interesting option.


I don't think the issue is really one of cork being better than a carbon fiber drag or vice versa. The issue is that in almost all cases its a matter of being able to deal with a drag malfunction if it occurs. With a cork drag its easy anyplace on the planet to deal with it. If its a sealed drag you are simply SOL. 

There are those who feel that a sealed drag wont fail so its a better option. 
There are those who don't believe that to be the case and want the ability to fix it on the spot.


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## bryson

ifsteve said:


> I don't think the issue is really one of cork being better than a carbon fiber drag or vice versa. The issue is that in almost all cases its a matter of being able to deal with a drag malfunction if it occurs. With a cork drag its easy anyplace on the planet to deal with it. If its a sealed drag you are simply SOL.
> 
> There are those who feel that a sealed drag wont fail so its a better option.
> There are those who don't believe that to be the case and want the ability to fix it on the spot.


I agree on the sealed vs. unsealed thing, and I have both types of reels. I just meant that on one of my unsealed reels, I can remove my cork drag and drop in another (unsealed) identical drag, that has carbon fiber surface rather than a cork surface. One of the previous comments about the possibility of the cork getting wet made me think that might be an advantage of the carbon.


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## jmrodandgun

Carbon drags are for squares.


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## mwong61

ifsteve said:


> SJ
> And FWIW I am to the point where I take two Aleve BEFORE I head out for a day.


Crap, I thought I was the only one that does this!


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## el9surf

mwong61 said:


> Crap, I thought I was the only one that does this!


Me too


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## Steve_Mevers

Me too


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