# Fly line to butt section help



## fishfirst92 (Jan 22, 2018)

I'm about 15 minutes from selling my fly gear because I can't get a good knot to connect my fly line to my butt section of leader and it's driving me insane. This is for my 10wt setup that'll be going after smaller tarpon in the keys, jacks, muskies, stripers to give you an idea. 

I'm using 60lb mono (trilene big game) as a butt section of my leader, but I just cannot get it to properly seat. I've tried loop to loop connection but the knot size on a perfection loop on 60lb mono is large and I'm worried a hot fish could do some damage to guides or worse. So I've tried a blood knot and cannot get the mono to seat without slipping, my nail knots look like a dog turd and I can't get them flat so they'll evenly pass through the guides, and I also can't get an Albright knot to seat.....is the 60lb too stiff? Is it too slick? What is my issue here? Maybe I'm just that bad at knots? I'm not a novice and that's frustrating also so can someone PLEASE help me before all my gear ends up in the for sale section thanks!


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Needle nail knot with a perfection loop on the end. Assuming you don't have a welded fly line loop to work with.

What kind of gear are you going to sell?


----------



## fishfirst92 (Jan 22, 2018)

I cut my loops off because I usually just blood knot my fly line to my butt section, but I can't seem to be able to do that with the 60lb I'm using. The blood in my opinion passes through the guides better then the loop to loop. However when I do this it's always been on smaller/thinner diameter line like 40lb, 30lb etc... I'm just struggling with this 60lb.

And I'm hypothetically saying I'm going to sell my gear because I'm frustrated lol. I'm not actually going to sell it.... At least not yet


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

What weight rod is this going on? 60 lb, seems like overkill, I would think 40 would probably work better. You should have a weaker section of line down near the bite tippet in most cases anyways.

If you aren't using loop to loop are you prepared to retie this connection a hundred times over the next 2 years? I would imagine you will shorten the length of this section every time you change your leader if you aren't using a loop to loop.

Just to clarify this is the head of the fly line to the butt section of the leader correct?


----------



## fishfirst92 (Jan 22, 2018)

It'll be going on my 10wt a Mystic Reaper to be exact. 

And yes I'm just talking about connecting the head of the fly line to the butt section of the leader. I figure that after this connection I could just make a loop to loop connection let's say the 60lb to 40lb and that way I would only ever have to retie the 40lb and below sections when need be. Also I will have a 16-20lb fuse just above my bite tippet.

I was thinking 60lb may just be too much and was debating dropping it to 40lb.


----------



## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Fly line has welded loop or whipped loop. 4’ 40# with perfection on one side to fly line. Blood knot to 3’ 30#, 2’ 20# (fuse), then tippet if 20-40# depending on situation. 60# butt on a 10wt is overkill in my opinion. This is what I use on my 11wt. If you don’t want a loop in your Fly line then nail knot a 1’ 40# mono butt with perfection on the end so you can easily add leaders.


----------



## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

I cut loops off and do a permanent butt section (#60) with a double nail knot to the fly line. 8wt and down gets #40 most of the time. Here's a thread with pics on this subject.
https://www.microskiff.com/threads/butt-section-to-fly-line.45507/page-2#post-363457


----------



## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

I would add back in a whipped loop or get some braided loops but do not use the heat shrink, nail knot the braided loop to the fly line. Then connect the whipped loop to the perfection loop on the butt end of the 60lb. I also agree 60lb is excessive. I would go down to 40lb, it will be a better perfection loop.


----------



## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

mosquitolaGOON said:


> 4’ 40# with perfection on one side to fly line. Blood knot to 3’ 30#, 2’ 20#


Ah, yes, square root of two. My formula as well. I put a larger loop at the end of the 20# so I can change tippets with fly attached.


----------



## fishfirst92 (Jan 22, 2018)

Awesome thanks guys. I'll go give that a shot


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

60# for a butt section on a 10wt is too big IMO. I use 50# on my 12wts. And cutting loops off factory fly lines is really silly. 10 years ago maybe but the technology now is so good there is just no need to do that. Even the GT guys in the Seychelles have stopped doing that for this year.


----------



## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

As much time as I've spent whipping loops on fly lines I was glad to see welded loops.


----------



## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

ifsteve said:


> 60# for a butt section on a 10wt is too big IMO. I use 50# on my 12wts. And cutting loops off factory fly lines is really silly. 10 years ago maybe but the technology now is so good there is just no need to do that. Even the GT guys in the Seychelles have stopped doing that for this year.


I respect your opinion, I cut them off because I think my connection goes through guides smoother, and to me reliability is still suspect, maybe I've just had bad luck, but it makes me feel better.
Bought 3 new lines last year. This one was the most expensive ($130), looked like this out of the box. Loop felt really stiff like it was over cooked. Aside from that the line has been flawless and pretty dang durable.


----------



## fishfirst92 (Jan 22, 2018)

Cutting the loop is also just personal preference for me. I've fished welded loops and don't really have anything bad to say about them, I just like a different connection because imo it's smoother again though that's just me. I'll definitely downsize to 40lb most likely and go from there.


----------



## Guest (Feb 26, 2018)

fishfirst92 said:


> I'm about 15 minutes from selling my fly gear because I can't get a good knot to connect my fly line to my butt section of leader and it's driving me insane. This is for my 10wt setup that'll be going after smaller tarpon in the keys, jacks, muskies, stripers to give you an idea.
> 
> I'm using 60lb mono (trilene big game) as a butt section of my leader, but I just cannot get it to properly seat. I've tried loop to loop connection but the knot size on a perfection loop on 60lb mono is large and I'm worried a hot fish could do some damage to guides or worse. So I've tried a blood knot and cannot get the mono to seat without slipping, my nail knots look like a dog turd and I can't get them flat so they'll evenly pass through the guides, and I also can't get an Albright knot to seat.....is the 60lb too stiff? Is it too slick? What is my issue here? Maybe I'm just that bad at knots? I'm not a novice and that's frustrating also so can someone PLEASE help me before all my gear ends up in the for sale section thanks!


You may go with a lighter butt section. I believe the fly line core is around 30 lb. I've also covered nail knotted butt sections with a bullet shaped covering of aqua seal.


----------



## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

The 60lb stuff is not necessarily too big for a ten wt line, you can soften it up a bit with hot water before tying your nail knot, that may make it easier. I routinely do nail knots with 60 lb stuff, I know it can be done with Big Game mono, but don’t know the brand or diameter of what you’re using.
JC


----------



## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

How are you cinching down your perfection loops? What is the diameter of that line?


----------



## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

If you want to use 60 lb. With a blood knot try using 3 wraps or 2. Wet it and try to pull it up

If you can't do that just send me all your fly gear you won't need it any more

Also to tie a nail knot I use that handy little metal tool from Orvis. Makes great nail knots
I'll post a picture if you need it


----------



## fishfirst92 (Jan 22, 2018)

tailwalk said:


> How are you cinching down your perfection loops? What is the diameter of that line?


60lb trilene big game with an .030" avg. dia.


----------



## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

What part worries you, the knot or the loop-loop connection? When tying the perfection loop in butt sections, especially the bigger sizes, I like to slip the loop over something round like a screwdriver and then take a couple wraps around my hand with the line and really reef on it to cinch it down tight. A glove is a good idea, haha. Ends up being a pretty small knot. I don't get how you'd blood knot a butt section to fly line, maybe someone will walk through that one. I don't trust nail knots for butt to fly line, but that's me.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

tailwalk said:


> What part worries you, the knot or the loop-loop connection? When tying the perfection loop in butt sections, especially the bigger sizes, I like to slip the loop over something round like a screwdriver and then take a couple wraps around my hand with the line and really reef on it to cinch it down tight. A glove is a good idea, haha. Ends up being a pretty small knot. I don't get how you'd blood knot a butt section to fly line, maybe someone will walk through that one. I don't trust nail knots for butt to fly line, but that's me.


I do the same on perfection loops with larger diameter line, a screwdriver usually works perfectly. Was also wondering about the blood knots mentioned. I trust the nail knot up to about 7 -8 wt but past that a big fish can strip the coating right off the line. 

If you want bomb proof a custom braided mono loop about 8 inches, nail knotted on the fly line with braid will be about as slim and functional as you can get. I have done a lot of testing on that connection and the core always fails before the connection. I use that connection on the butt of all my fly lines, it goes through the guides much easier than the welded loops. And I'm not referring the the tiny 4 inch pre made braided loops that they sell in the shops with the crappy heat shrink connection. Don't see why that wouldn't work on the head of the fly line. Just limited color selection on the braided mono.


----------



## fishfirst92 (Jan 22, 2018)

tailwalk said:


> What part worries you, the knot or the loop-loop connection?


The part that worries me is how large the knot on the P-loop is. I cinch mine with a screwdriver also and then coat it with a tiny bit of UV knot sense, but the knot just seemed like it was larger then it should be and putting a large knot/bump through the guides with larger fish worries me a bit. I also fish solo a lot and out of a kayak so I need to get those fish nice and close. That's essentially my main worry, but maybe I'm just being too anal.



If you want bomb proof a custom braided mono loop about 8 inches, nail knotted on the fly line with braid will be about as slim and functional as you can get. I have done a lot of testing on that connection and the core always fails before the connection. I use that connection on the butt of all my fly lines, it goes through the guides much easier than the welded loops.[/QUOTE]

This is interesting I've seen the braided loops in bass pro, but I wouldn't use them on large fish. Could you post a picture of this braided mono if you don't mind? This may be something I'd be interested in doing.


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

So how many times in a fish fight is your fly line to butt section connection going through the guides? For me its zero. No doubt that a loop to loop is a bigger connection than some others but I just don't see how this is an issue.


----------



## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

@fishfirst92 
Look in that thread I sent a link for. The braided loops and how to attach them was covered well. Also, I think there was a video posted toward the end of the thread.


----------



## fishfirst92 (Jan 22, 2018)

ifsteve said:


> So how many times in a fish fight is your fly line to butt section connection going through the guides? For me its zero. No doubt that a loop to loop is a bigger connection than some others but I just don't see how this is an issue.


Rarely ever does that connection make it through my eyes in the midst of a fight. There are times however when I fish solo that that connection needs to come through my eyes in order to give me the best shot at getting a hold on the fish. Still it's a rare occurrence, but those times that it occurs I'd much rather have a connection that is smoother in case that fish goes crazy in that last stage of a fight and starts taking line. With how high my rod would be it would create a good bend in the rod and i'd prefer if that connection was as smooth as possible and not clunking out and possibly getting hung. That's just me and my preference, so that's why I asked.


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Long handled net.....my best answer for when I am fishing alone. Especially because I can land the fish quicker. But landing a fish solo is the circumstance that can lead to a butt connection going in/out of the guides.


----------



## fishfirst92 (Jan 22, 2018)

ifsteve said:


> Long handled net.....my best answer for when I am fishing alone. Especially because I can land the fish quicker. But landing a fish solo is the circumstance that can lead to a butt connection going in/out of the guides.


The net is going to be a purchase without a doubt, I'm currently in the stage of shopping for one to make it easier. I'm visiting my Florida so I don't have all my stuff with me which includes a long handle net I use back home. Thinking a packable one for here would be best.


----------



## Shadowcast (Feb 26, 2008)

I've always used the welded loop to connect to my butt section. I use the 5x rule (8wt line=40# butt, 10wt line=50#, etc). Never had an issue. The perfection loop holds really good and I cinch it down relatively small. Sounds like you've already got some great advice.


----------



## fishfirst92 (Jan 22, 2018)

Shadowcast said:


> I've always used the welded loop to connect to my butt section. I use the 5x rule (8wt line=40# butt, 10wt line=50#, etc). Never had an issue. The perfection loop holds really good and I cinch it down relatively small. Sounds like you've already got some great advice.


I like 5x advice I've never heard that to be honest. Thanks, I figured it was because the 60lb was too large, but as seen above 60lb is doable so there's operator error involved on my end. That's why I ask questions! Some great advice here indeed.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I'm more concerned about the connection at the butt end of my fly line to my backing. I want that as smooth as possible which is why I use the braided loop, or Hollow core Spectra.


----------



## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

When you do a bit of tarpon fishing with the fly you'll learn you need knots that can pass through both the tiptop and the guides multiple times with a single fish at the end of the fight without the slightest problem (whether you're using just an 8 or 9wt for fish around 30lbs or a 12wt for big mama...). I just posted a fishing report that doesn't focus on leaders but every one of the seven or eight fish each night were a PITA at the skiff (those that didn't just take us to school and never were anywhere near the skiff...).

I'm still using a permanently attached butt section on all of my fly lines with a single nail knot for lines up to 9wt - for big intermediate fly lines (10wt on up) we're still using two nail knots in a row (and those hold up to anything you can put them through, while still passing through the guides if needed...


----------



## Argent (Feb 15, 2017)

I agree that 50lb is a little high for a 10wt. I'm using 50lb butt for my 11s and 12s, but I'm also using Ande Hard Mono, which I think has a larger diameter, so the BGT 50lb may be the same difference as their 30 or 40lb. The link below is what I've been doing with all my 11 and 12wt poon lines and have never had a loop fail. Have had lines themselves fail by having the outer coating completely strip off, but the loops held. As for knots passing through the guides, i've never had too much of an issue with a perfection loop or double surgeons going through the guides. I have a hook screwed into my deck and put on a pair of gloves and chinch that thing down really good though. For a 10wt, the factory loop is perfectly fine IMO, just loop yer leader on there and go. If the knot gets stuck just lay off slightly and bounce or hop the knot free. Also, I realize adding the nail knot just below the loop defeats the purpose of the braided mono loop, but the stress that those silver fish put on it s-h-o-u-l-d (I say should b/c I have no way of inspecting the loop while i'm fighting the fish) stretch that braid to were it digs in and grips the line coating, increasing the holding strength of the installed loop. 

http://flyfishingresearch.net/images/HISPANICA_LOOPS_.pdf


----------



## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

fishfirst92 said:


> Rarely ever does that connection make it through my eyes in the midst of a fight. There are times however when I fish solo that that connection needs to come through my eyes in order to give me the best shot at getting a hold on the fish. Still it's a rare occurrence, but those times that it occurs I'd much rather have a connection that is smoother in case that fish goes crazy in that last stage of a fight and starts taking line. With how high my rod would be it would create a good bend in the rod and i'd prefer if that connection was as smooth as possible and not clunking out and possibly getting hung. That's just me and my preference, so that's why I asked.


Your leaders need to be shorter. A 9' leader should not have to go through the guides landing a fish with a 9' rod. IMHO


----------



## Rick hambric (Jun 24, 2017)

Might be just me, but does anyone else whip or nail knot both ends of all their lines, or is it just me??? I’ll typically use 200d gsp or 10#suffix 832.


----------



## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

On new lines that don't have a loop on the end that attaches to the backing... I form a loop then nail knot it twice (each knot is seven turns of 30lb Ande mono). With lines that have pre-formed loops at the leader end I'll simply do a loop to loop butt section to attach them (and that's with lines all the way up to 12wt and beyond. To date I've not had the slightest problem. If and when the loop shows the slightest abrasion or wear - then I'll cut it off and go to a double nail knot connection for my butt section (two nail knots with butt section similar to what was described as noted above - with the ends cut on the bias as close to the knot as possible so there's nothing to hang up on the guides...).


----------



## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

lemaymiami said:


> On new lines that don't have a loop on the end that attaches to the backing... I form a loop then nail knot it twice (each knot is seven turns of 30lb Ande mono). With lines that have pre-formed loops at the leader end I'll simply do a loop to loop butt section to attach them (and that's with lines all the way up to 12wt and beyond. To date I've not had the slightest problem. If and when the loop shows the slightest abrasion or wear - then I'll cut it off and go to a double nail knot connection for my butt section (two nail knots with butt section similar to what was described as noted above - with the ends cut on the bias as close to the knot as possible so there's nothing to hang up on the guides...).



Bob I do similar techniques for my fly line loops and also nail knotting leader butt section directly to flyline. To make the knot a touch smaller I do three nail knots with 15lb mono. So far I haven't had one break what species I am chasing. I also usually put one or two nail knots on a factory welded loop on my larger rods 10-12 wt. Any reason why your two with 30lb are better, asking since you have a lot more experience doing this year after year?


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Since I use braid/gsp for my backing I sleeve it with 120# hollow braid. Never have to worry about the backing wearing or chaffing the fly line loop.


----------



## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

If the line doesn't have a loop (and I haven't gotten one lately that didn't) I whip a loop in both ends with a bobbin and mono tying thread. I strip 1/2" of coating off the line to expose the core and whip the loop. Haven't had one to fail yet.


----------



## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

I started nail-knotting a butt section directly to the fly line a few years ago and feel like it works great- I use a 30# butt section on my 8wt rigs, 40# on the 10wt, and 60# on the 12. I believe I first heard about it on here and was referred to this tutorial video on how to do it.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Here is the butt end of my 11wt line with a 50lb braided mono loop. The fly line goes inside of the braided mono. It's pretty much seamless going in and out of the guides. As tension is increased on the braided mono it reduces in diameter, especially at the loop.


----------

