# Finally...Our J16



## rkmurphy

After a lot of stressing, looking, researching, and debating it's finally over.  I'm in debt...but it's all going to be worth it.  We finally got exactly what we wanted.  Was going to just save money and buy a new one but found this cherry on FS website.  Got a great deal.  It's a 2006 CS J16 with a large front deck, removable trolling motor mount, dual livewells, lights, and he even included a nice bilge pump.

I ended up having to provide a trailer which I did a little work on but plan on completely refurb-ing.  I'll show the progess on this thread, too (watch out hammer!  It's going to be nicer than your's! haha).

It's going to sit for now til I get some bills paid off but I plan to hang a motor on her by summer at the latest.

Here's my plans for the future:
- 30-40hp short shaft tiller
- Tom C Jack Plate
- Poling platform
- Trolling motor
- Some sort of push pole (make or buy?)
- Yeti cooler seat w/ cushion and back rest...maybe

That's all I have in mind for now.  And unlike Obama's 510 campaign promises, I would like to follow through with all of these.

If you have any suggestions, let me know.  I have plenty of time to consider options!

And...I know...pics























































Not the best pics but I took them as soon as I got home from Jacksonville...long driving day for me...


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## Brett

The hard part's done.
You've got the bow and stern decks in and ready to use.
Rod racks in, bow light, storage areas and room to play.
Trailer survived a long trip so short ones will be easier.
Replace the bow stop roller with a pivoting block stop.
Spread the load over a larger area.

http://www.allianceboating.com/Image/j16scdf25%20001.jpg

Looks good, you're going to have fun.


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## rkmurphy

Hey thanks for all of your help (especially the guru). I really appreciate it.

The J16 is unbelievably more spacious than the J14. It has sooooo much room. Did a float test today and it was pretty stable as well. Can't wait to get it on the water.


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## rkmurphy

Just got done scrubbing the bottom of the boat for the last 3 hours. There was all kinds of dirt residue from it sitting in the yard for a couple years. Got almost all of it off with dish soap and water. I'm sure with some bleach I could make it look new...but I don't think the fish will mind. I'm satisfied.

Checked the bearing buddies on the trailer and both needed filling. The only problem is one wouldn't fill...so I just filled the whole thing with grease and covered it with a bra. The grease gun is a pain in the a** to get off, too. I'll probably just end up replacing the whole assembly (hub, bearing, and bearing buddy).


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## rkmurphy

Anyone know how to get these little, tiny shell/mini-barnacle looking things off the bottom of the hull? There are a few on the sides as well.

And is it safe to take some Soft Scrub w/ bleach to the bottom of the boat? I know I said I wasn't going to worry about it but it's just sitting there unrigged...I need to do something...


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## Brett

Barnacles, oh boy, the top comes off easy, the base is part of the boat.
Try a very sharp putty knife, or razor sharp paint scraper.
Work small, work careful, or you'll damage your gelcoat or your hands.

Scrub brush, rag, gloves and 1 part bleach, 3 parts water. No grit


more info:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Boat-Hull-Cleaning-Procedures-for-Owners-and-Detailers&id=36464


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## FSUfisher

NO Soft Scrub, unless you're very careful. Brushing that in will eat away your gelcoat. Whatever you do make sure to polish and wax before the boat goes back in the water if you plan to use an abrasive cleaner like bleach.


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## rkmurphy

Very nice Brett. Thank you...if I get some time this weekend...I'll get 'er done.

Does anyone know what this is called and where I can get a new one? I know it controls the trailer's tilt but I don't know the formal name to look up.


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## Taterides

Tilt latch assembly- Any trailer specialty store should have one/or be able to order.


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## HaMm3r

Congrats man! Glad you made the trip safely. 

One little tip to avoid the blurred pictures. Use the timer feature on your camera. Usually a digital camera will have a short 2-3 second timer, as well as a longer 10-15 second one. Use the short one so you don't shake the camera by depressing the shutter.  Just want to make sure we can clearly see your so called "better than hammer's" trailer refurb. ;D


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## rkmurphy

Haha thanks hammer. Just did a little research and came up with my budgeted costs to go into the boat/trailer. I divided the total costs into 5 projects...to give myself some saving goals. Total costs will be somewhere between $3,250 and $3,500. This includes between $225-$250 for the trailer refurb, which is Project 1. I'll keep updates and pics coming when the time comes for each project to begin. I'm also keeping track of my budgeted and actual costs of each project in a spreadsheet and I will include that in the updates.

Since I'm completely broke and it's just sitting...all I can do is sit here and dream and plan. This sucks.


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## islander1225

as far as cleaning the barnacle go to west marine and they have a product called on/off it is made by mary kate i believe. awsome stuff works very well it is a hull cleaner i recomend not using it straight though dilute in some soap and water and still wear gloves when you use it cause it has two type of acid in it but the stuff works wonders. and it is safe for the gel coat.

here is a link for it, i worked for west marine for 7 years before we had a falling out and i sold a lot of this stuff and i mean a lot and never had a complaint, eveyone i sold it to loved i even sold some to my father and he liked it to.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/5400/377%20710/0/hull%20cleaner/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=hull%20cleaner&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=hull%20cleaner&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5000&subdeptNum=4&classNum=34


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## tgaud11

Congrats Man. SHould be getting you real skinny. I'm lookin forward to seeing the additions that you plan on doing.


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## UCFishin19

Nice looking boat! Good call on the 16 vs the 14. The increased displacement will make up for the extra weight, and you'll be much more comfortable on the water. Can't wait to see the mods!


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## rkmurphy

Thanks for the kind words.

Been doing more research...nearly getting emotional over the lack of funds.

The fiance insists on getting a removable cooler for the middle with a seat cushion and back. Yeti doesn't offer anything with a back. I did find this, though:

http://www.rivermarinesupply.com/xcart/catalog/product_10880_Moeller_Swing_Back_Cooler_Seat_3000.html

Anyone heard of these/know if they're any good?

Just trying to get the budget for mods 100% figured out before I start trying to make the extra money and make em happen!


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## HialeahAngler

did the hottie come with the boat? ;D j/k 

On & Off will make the hull look brand new. I used it on my hull last week and it took of stains that were there for the past year that wouldn't come off. what I did was brush it on the bottom of the hull, wait a few seconds, and rinse. Viola, brand new hull. That cooler seat isn't bad and it'll save you space because now you won't need to put a cooler on the deck. Try to find yourself a good used engine and you should be able to save some $$. As little as a 25 hp should be able to move it just fine. congrats.


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## rkmurphy

Hahaha. No she was purchased seperately...I should have bought the extended warranty...she's a money pit. Haha.

Anyways thanks for the suggestions. I'll pick up some of that On/Off within the next couple of weeks...just trying to find extra work for extra money right now...part time at the YMCA just ain't cuttin' it...


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## Flyline

wow! she is hot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  the one standing back there!   ;D

just kidding!  love your skiff and hope u enjoy the hell of it!

lucky my wifey didnt see it! 


BTW, Did I see a jackrussels????

I have my babies it's a jackrussels Abbie and LAuren


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## Brett

Back when I fished offshore,
I built a swingback seat to fit over my big igloo.
Look at the design of the typical swingback.
A box, 2 pivot points 2 inches above the deck,
2 swing arms, 2 trapping braces, and a backrest.
Looks like an afternoon of woodwork.
Then time for some painting.

If you're feeling really ambitious,
you can learn to bend stainless steel tubing,
and make a 1 piece swing back.

Today I'd probably bolt a piece of plywood or starboard
to the top of a cooler, and mount a pair of swiveling tempress seats.
Less chance of pinched or crushed fingers.

http://www.tempress.com/index.php?cPath=10_21_63


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## Flyline

Rkmurphy,

let me know if u wanna go fishing on your CS skiff and I will bring my fishing gear and 15hp merc 4-stroke to splash your skiff!


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## rkmurphy

> BTW, Did I see a jackrussels????
> 
> I have my babies it's a jackrussels Abbie and LAuren


Yes those are Jack Russells. The bigger boy with the tail is 3 and the little girl with the nub is 9 months. Love those dogs.



> Rkmurphy,
> 
> let me know if u wanna go fishing on your CS skiff and I will bring my fishing gear and 15hp merc 4-stroke to splash your skiff!


And I may just have to take you up on that one day. I really appreciate that. Hopefully I can get some time away from school soon here and get a good fishing trip in. Lately it's consisted of 2-4 hour wading trips about twice a month. Can't even work around the tides! Oh well...at least I'm getting my line wet.


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## UCFishin19

That cooler seat looks like a good deal. Be sure to check out marine surplus stores, or boat dealers that sell boats that come with cooler seats (i.e. seapro, sea fox, sailfish...) because sometimes they might have used ones or extra ordered stock where clients went the leaning post option. For instance we replaced the cooler seat in our 19ft seapro bay with a shearwater leaning post that we picked up just sitting at a dealer.


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## rkmurphy

> That cooler seat looks like a good deal. Be sure to check out marine surplus stores, or boat dealers that sell boats that come with cooler seats (i.e. seapro, sea fox, sailfish...) because sometimes they might have used ones or extra ordered stock where clients went the leaning post option. For instance we replaced the cooler seat in  our 19ft seapro bay with a shearwater leaning post that we picked up just sitting at a dealer.


That's a good idea...never thought of that. They'd probably sell it for dirt, too.

I'll worry about that when the time comes, though. I need to pay some bills and get my motor and trolling motor before anything. Once the funds start coming in (Please...God...) I plan on adding to my PVC push pole project from a while back. Turned out nice but it's only about 10'. Want to extend it to 16'-18' and sand it, paint it, and make it pretty.


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## rkmurphy

Sorry about not replying to any of my threads over the past couple of days. Didn't want to jynx what was going on.

I am now the proud owner of a 1998 Mercury 25hp short shaft tiller. In great shape just needs a clean up and stickers. Low hour motor with 124 psi compression even, great looking gear lube, ran good, pumped water good. I'm pumped (no pun intended). Apparently the water pump and lower gear oil were maticulously maintained. Previous owner was actually there when I went to look at it. He was the second owner. He only used it twice in saltwater and traded it in on a bigger motor for his offshore boat. The owner before that just fished a river (freshwater). Almost no corrosion, if any.

I got a little scared when it was barely pumping water at first (just spitting) but then the thermostat kicked in and it peed really good. Gonna have to get used to that...

I feel like I got a great deal but only time will tell. The seller (outboard repair shop) even agreed to service the carb for me free of charge, although it probably doesn't need it. I may just have him show me how to do the water pump while I'm there, so I can do it myself from now on. Will post pictures by Wednesday night. Hopefully I can get a break from exam studying and take it out for a couple hours this weekend.

Thanks so much for everyone's help! This is only the beginning...


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## marshman

cool...congrats....pics....


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## rkmurphy

Just a couple night pics from the day of purchase.  After I took a little WD-40 and a paper towel to the cowling and rubber around the cowling.




























The gear oil looks d*mn near new but should I still change it?  Maybe change the plugs, too?  It ran great when they demonstrated it for me.

What about doing this:
http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226933509

Just want to know if there's some precautionary measures I should take other than seeing it run, gear oil checked, compression checked, and making sure it pumps water.

Edit: What all am I going to need for the fuel setup? I have the attachment to the motor for the fuel line. I plan on using a cheap-o Attwood 6 gal tank for now.

Sorry...VERY new at this...


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## paint it black

You just need the bulb, gas line, and fittings along with the fuel tank and fuel....lol

Some people use an inline filter, or inline water separator, but it's not a must. It can help with the e10 issues, but if you run it occasionally, you shouldn't have a problem regardless.


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## marshman

its been my experience not to go cheap on the fuel line....walmart fittings and line w/ primer  are absoulutely not the same quality as the quicksilver or yamaha kind...trust me....i got burned(not literally, no fire involved) 2 different times with leaky fittings and not getting good prime...my old man even had problems(kept fighting it and fighting it) with his merc...finally called me over to see what was wrong, and first thing i saw was the old cheapo fuel line, i took it off, put mine(quicksilver brand) and he had no problems...and he uses his rig alot....

i know the quicksilver is probably twice the price of the attwood or whatever that crap at walmart is, but, i promise you will be better in the long run....

someone might chime in and contradict...you make the decision...im just speaking from my experience.....it sucks to get to the lake(we dont have"close" fishing where i live, its always 45 mins - hour car drive to the fishing holes)and have to fool/mess with your fuel line and smell like gas while your fishing....


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## Brett

previous fuel line post

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1233100585


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## rkmurphy

Thanks for the help. Where would I be able to purchase the Quicksilver stuff?

And what about these questions?



> The gear oil looks d*mn near new but should I still change it?  Maybe change the plugs, too?  It ran great when they demonstrated it for me.
> 
> What about doing this:
> http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226933509
> 
> Just want to know if there's some precautionary measures I should take other than seeing it run, gear oil checked, compression checked, and making sure it pumps water.
> 
> Sorry...VERY new at this...


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## Brett

Every time I buy a used engine
I treat it like it's time for the annual service.
Why? So that when I'm on the water, everything works.
And to set a service date for the next checkup (written on tape inside cowl)
New plugs, set gap before installing
lube all zerk fittings
lube shift and throttle linkage rub points
all electrical connections tight
remove prop, inspect hub, clean and lube prop shaft splines
reattach prop
change lower unit lube
wax fiberglass components

You have a new (for you) motor
invest in a shop manual,
makes repairs/maintenance easier when all instructions and specs are hard copy.

Quicksilver is mercury OEM trademark
means buy from merc parts dealer/repair shop


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## rkmurphy

I appreciate the detail, Brett. What exactly is a zert fitting? And should I be able to get a shop manual for a '98 Merc from a Merc dealer? Or am I stuck with eBay?


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## Flyline

Good job finding a sweet motor.......

That'll looks good with your skiff.....

Do me a favor pls.....TAKE OUT ON THE WATER AND RUN IT LIKE U STOLE IT!


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## Brett

Oops, misspelled, should be "zerk" fitting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grease_fitting

shop manuals can be found on-line
used book stores, libraries, parts shops,
I've even found a few in pdf format on the web.

example:

http://www.repairmanual.com/marine/7/9257


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## rkmurphy

I thought it sounded funny...haha

So I just put my grease gun nozzle over those and shoot a little grease in? And I'm guessing go with Quicksilver gear lube?

Whitesnooky...your wish is my command...hahaha


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## Brett

Pump "marine" grease until it bleeds out around the edges,
if it's a used motor I'll pump grease in until the old
water contaminated grease stops showing up.
Lotsa paper towels to wipe up the mess.

Merc motor - merc lube...keep it simple


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## marshman

anywhere that sell mercury outboards....quicksilver is mercury....

fwiw...if you have a yamaha dealer closer to you , you can use yamaha brand...some year model mercs and yamahas intertwine, and the fuel fittings are even  the same( some models, not all)....if not...you can use yamaha primer and hose and just put the merc fittings for your motor on it...the yamaha dealer should also have the fittings for merc if he has a decent marine supply/parts section...

just stay away from the cheapo attwood stuff...hose for sure, fittings even more...

your merc fuel line fitting has the ball and spring, with the little metal lever on the side...the walmart one doesnt seal properly...it will work for a while, but "sucks air". and will fail, and youll have to unhook it , rehook it, making sure it "clicks"...(its agravavating) all this , when your not expecting it...like, when you have the wife or the kids out for a nice day...kids panic when dad has to work on the motor while floating in the water...


the red attwood tanks are fine...just put a good fitting with some good thread sealant and roll on...


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## rkmurphy

What about a Seasense hose and primer bulb? This just needs to be something temporary...last a year or so. I checked on the quicksilver fuel line and it's $89. Not in the cards right now...just needs to be cheap and work for the time being.


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## Brett

You can find better prices than that.
Gonna have to look around a bit more...

Like this google book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=LPDseE1mkT8C&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=replace+stator+1998+25+hp+mercury+outboard&source=bl&ots=zuCLR1YiLl&sig=UDDfgsFUq6bGHRDWhq48eU0oL_Y&hl=en&ei=SeStSd7JNorGtgfbidyKDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP1,M1

You need to be one with the google...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=quicksilver+fuel+line+assembly&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

Even crowley marine carries oem fuel line assemblies for your motor:

http://www.crowleymarine.com/mercury_parts/368/260.cfm


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## paint it black

He has a great point about the faulty fuel lines. I hate leaky fittings. I had to get a direct straight plug into the tank with a clamp because the fittings kept leaking and get air in the lines. I wasn't aware about the quicksilver lines I will definitely give it a try.


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## Brett

I have assembled my own fuel lines from OEM components,
rather than purchase a cheap after-market fuel line assembly.
It's not fun being 20 miles offshore trying to figure out why
your motor won't run. Been there...solved that.


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## marshman

"""It's not fun being 20 miles offshore trying to figure out why
your motor won't run. Been there...solved that. """"

esp, when its such a simple thing as a fuel line....

im just trying to keep you from spending money on the cheapo, trying to save, and then when you have probs with it, youre out what you already spent on the cheapo, and then have to spend more on the good stuff...


and you can definately get set up for less than 90 bucks...dang, i prob got one or 2 laying around you can HAVE...itll be the w/e before i get to look... 
but, if its just temporary(im scratching my head, now)...go ahead..i thought you were trying to get 5 years out of your purchase......not sure i understand that...but, cool..........im smiling either way....


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## rkmurphy

Haha it's temporary because I'm a poor college student who stretched to even get the motor. I also had to buy all of the required stuff like life jackets, etc. I just spent $150 at Wal Mart buying little things here and there that I needed. I went with the SeaSense...it just happened to be on clearence, too...lucky me. I went with a different merc fitting to the Attwood tank as I already had the OEM fitting that clicks on the motor. I got the one that you push and twist in...you said the other one sucked so I figured I'd try a different one. It's plastic but I used some threadlock and screwed it in as hand tight as I could get it. Like I said...as long as I get a year out of it or til I can afford the real deal...I'm satisfied.

WalMart carried the Quicksilver gear lube so I went ahead and got the lube and pump. Is a quart enough?

Got an Attwood bilge pump hose to set up the Rule Mate automatic pump. The boat had the bilge installed when I got it with the exit hole in the side and everything...all it needed was a hose. I got a little EverStart lawn mower battery to run the bilge and lights. How do you wire the bilge up to the battery?

And Brett I'd have to agree...Google knows all...


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## Brett

wiring diagram


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## rkmurphy

I'll deal with the battery on Friday...cleaned, inspected, and regreased the propshaft.  Looked great.

On the part of the prop facing the motor, there appeared to be some sort of rubber, or something similar, washer that looks pretty worn.  Also, any secrets on getting that thrust washer metal piece thing off?  I can't seem to pull it off...didn't force it because I didn't want to mess anything up.

Update: Ok got the washer off. Just wasn't moving it quite the right way. Cleaned the whole propshaft up to the seal and cleaned the thrust washer. Applied grease VERY liberally to both. Rather use way too much than even slightly too little...

That rubber thing I talked about is supposed to be there, I guess. Not even shown in a parts diagram.

And how tight should I tighten the nut/spacer back on?  It didn't seem too tight when I took it off...


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## Brett

Generic prop installation:

http://www.propline.com/Propeller-General-Information/Propeller_Installation.htm


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## rkmurphy

Sh*t...well....anyone in the Tampa area have a torque wrench :-[?


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## Brett

Does your prop shaft use a cotter pin or the folding tab washer?


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## marshman

25 merc uses niether brett...uses a nylon nut....thats it...its all you need...


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## Brett

What is it? A big ny-loc

http://www.crowleymarine.com/mercury_parts/368/200.cfm

Looks like one, I was an Evinrude junkie until 2001...


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## marshman

not a metal nut with nylon insert...the whole nut is nylon...works great...

has a "washer"surface built into it...

****just dont tighten too tight, so that you strip it out...****dont ask how i know....but i will say its only like 5 bucks to replace it, again, dont ask how i know.... ;D


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## Brett

Hear that RK, tighten until snug, no torque wrench needed.


Plastic lock nuts on a prop...sheesh,
hope that they're better than the plastic gears in the old GM distributors.

;D


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## marshman

http://www.getaprop.com/content-popup_image/pID-3040/popup_image.html


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## marshman

ive owned 7 25 mercs/mariners over the course of 25 years....all ive ever used...and i run a 300 dollar prop....and im hard on it...


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## rkmurphy

Haha missed out on this conversation. Yeah it's a plastic nut and that's exactly what a Merc mechanic told me today. Tighten "snug". Going to run a 1 gallon of gas with 1 bottle SeaFoam mixture either today or Friday. Friday I'll change plugs, gear lube, and grease everything up (zer'K' ( ) fittings, linkage rub points, etc.). Then she'll be ready to run...I can't wait!

Should I through bolt it to the transom? Or just clamp on? I have it centered on the transom and clamped on already.


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## Brett

previous post regarding clamp on outboards:

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1235856752


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## Tom_C

> Should I through bolt it to the transom?  Or just clamp on?


BOLT IT!!!


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## Flyline

> Should I through bolt it to the transom?  Or just clamp on?
> 
> 
> 
> BOLT IT!!!
Click to expand...

uhhhh what he said but I never bolt mine.

BOLT IT AND U CANNOT LOSE A MOTOR!


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## rkmurphy

Any good procedures or tricks for properly mounting and through-bolting the motor? I googled a little but didn't find anything worth while...


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## Brett

You gotta point there, no bolt mounting holes in the clamp bracket.

http://www.crowleymarine.com/mercury_parts/368/180.cfm

Mount a pad eye or cleat below the screw clamps.
Tie a section of 5/16 inch diameter dacron rope
up and over the screw clamp/bracket in a way that will
securely tie the motor down without interfering with steering
or tilting the engine.


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## rkmurphy

There are mounting holes on the bracket. It's weird that it doesn't show it on the diagram...


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## Brett

Well, if you got the holes, you have a template.

Standard mount is to have the cavitation plate 1/4 inch below
the bottom of the hull when the hull is level on the trailer.
If you plan to adjust upwards for maximum height, minimum wetted
lower unit, that's a different game. See the jackplate post for more
info and diagrams.


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## rkmurphy

Centered it as close as I possibly could without getting too scientific with it. My only tools were a measuring tape and a pencil. Once I got it centered I used the pencil to mark through the holes in the bracket. Going to go to Ace on Friday and get some stainless steel hardware and some 5200. Just a pair of bolts/nuts/washers is all I need I'm guessing. Then the sad drilling happens . Should the bold head be on the outside of the transom/mounting bracket or the inside of the transom/in the boat?


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## marshman

brett 25 merc does have 2 bolt holes on the mount....

anyway...for your application...no jack and just trying to get on the water, id just slap it on flat on the transom, be sure youre centered, bolt it down and go...

1/2 inch or 1 inch of fine tuning in height will not make or break your boat....

use lock nuts(stainless nuts with the nylon inserts), fender washers(big washer/small hole) on the inside of the transom...


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## marshman

put bolt head to the inside, lock nut and washer outside...

be sure to squeeze some sealant in the the hole with the bolt....i dont know if that is a wood transom or not, but cant hurt to seal it either way..


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## Brett

Full mounting procedure, diagrams, bottom of page:

http://www.marinepartsman.com/installing-an-outboard-on-your-boat.html

plus much more useful info regarding engine setup


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## rkmurphy

Thanks guys. I found that website last night. Right now, the cavitation plate is about 3/4 in to 1 in below the bottom. That is when it is mounted all of the way down. So I'm going to mark where the bracket is now, horizontally, and move it vertically up an inch to make the cavitation plate level with the bottom. That website says it can be mounted up to an inch above the bottom.

Marshman, that website shows the bottom bolts on the bracket with the bolt head on the "outside" and the nut and washer on the "inside".

And, the boat is completely composite. No wood, no rot, no cry.


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## marshman

Marshman, that website shows the bottom bolts on the bracket with the bolt head on the "outside" and the nut and washer on the "inside".



ok...cool...im fixin to go turn all mine around, wish i had found that 10 years ago..... ;D ;D ;D ;D

im just playing...i dont think it really matters...there might be some techinical reason, but i assure you it will work either way...


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## rkmurphy

Yeah I don't think the 25 has as much torque as a 250 etec...I think it'll be fine...


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## rkmurphy

I think I may have changed my mind...

I was taking a study break and just thinking...the J16 set up the way it is drafts approximately 4 inches (estimated without a float test). Which means if the cavitation plate is mounted level with the bottom it will actually sit approximately 4 inches under the water. When running on plane, add an inch or so to that. I would think it would be safe to say that mounting it to where the cavitation plate is 1-2 inches above the bottom shouldn't be a problem, right?

Would mounting it higher affect speed, ride comfortability, or deeper/rougher water running ability?

I want to plan this out to a 'T' before I drill...


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## Tom_W

Have you been to the CS owners forum? 

From what I've read most CS don't run well with the cav plate more than 1-2 inches above the bottom of hull....not sure why?

Do a search under "jackplates"

PM those guys...I've never had one not answer me back.

Maybe workinprogress or tarponiser?

An idea might be to get a setback plate so you can mount the plate to the boat once and then drill or redrill the plate until you get the motor where you want it.

I know you're on a budget but less holes in transom is "priceless" to me.

Best of luck

Tom W


----------



## marshman

youre limited to how high you can go, with the depth of your clamps......

you can put a block of 1x2. or 2x2 on top the transom if that will pick you up to where you want, but watch the clamp feet...you dont really want them all the way at the top of the transom....

but, yes...with a flatbottom, a 25 merc is fine with cav plate being 1 or 2 inches above level with boat bottom....


----------



## Brett

Tilt your hull on the trailer so that the hull tilts at a rate of 1/2" per foot.
(bow up)That will be a safe guesstimate of your running angle. Then set your
engine tilt so the the cavitation plate is level (get out that bubble level).
Then with the carpenters level held level, measure the vertical difference from the
top of the cav plate to the bottom of the hull. That's your correction height.
Kapish?


----------



## marshman

i have an engineers transit....we can shoot some benchmarks on the driveway and then shoot the hull, the cavplate, and figure some elevation.......

;D ;D ;D ;D

ok...too cocky...

brett, you dont think a good straightedge and tape measure would be just fine...?? 1/2 inch either way shouldnt make a difference...its a carolina skiff....it will be loaded differently everytime hes goes out probably, rough water, smooth water...im just saying...


----------



## Brett

I'm sorry...been thinking about turbulence, surface friction, vent shells...saw the question
and just wrote what I'd do. Probably more than needed, but he asked, so I answered.
Maybe I should change my handle to "overkill" or "TMI"

                                              

Wonder exactly how much the running angle is on this carolina?

Doesn't look like it runs very flat to me...
that bow is at least 12 inches higher than the transom.


----------



## rkmurphy

With the help of the fiance, I mounted her (the motor) 1 inch up. I would need a riser plate or jack plate (now accepting free TomC jackplates) to mount any higher. I will drill the holes tomorrow. It takes a 1/4" bit.

Is it ok to have a 1" gap between the top of the transom and the mounting bracket? Or should I put something in between?


----------



## Brett

Couldn't hurt to put a piece of pressure treated lumber in there.
It'd help with the alignment to have the block in place before marking and drilling.


----------



## Tom_C

> With the help of the fiance, I mounted her (the motor) 1 inch up.  I would need a riser plate or jack plate (now accepting free TomC jackplates) to mount any higher.  I will drill the holes tomorrow.  It takes a 1/4" bit.
> 
> Is it ok to have a 1" gap between the top of the transom and the mounting bracket?  Or should I put something in between?


Sorry I don't have any extra ones lying around. I would fill in the gap with wood or starboard. If you don't fill it in and your clamps loosen up the weight of your motor will be on the through bolts. If the through bolts don’t shear they may increase the size of your through holes without you knowing and could cause you problems latter down the road.

All the small motor I have mounted uses 5/16 bolts.


----------



## rkmurphy

5/16"?  Hmmmm....I guess I'll exchange the bolts I just bought then.  The 5/16" bit was too tight of a fit, to me.  Should I use 5200 to seal? Or just marine silicone?  Should I use a washer on the transom side and in front of the lock nut on the back side? Or should I just use one on the transom side?

Edit: 5/16" was perfect. Muchos gracias Tom


----------



## Brett

Oversize washers inside the hull to spread load
small washers on the engine side to prevent steel nut from cutting aluminum plate.

5200 or silicon, not a wood boat...


----------



## rkmurphy

What a bad day...

I ran the mixture through the motor 3 times. I figured it would run great after that. It's a pain to keep it running when the mixture is going through it. I ran it through 3 times and emptied the gas tank to put in some regular gas/oil (50:1 of course). It runs horrible now. It idles like crap and when I give it a little gas as it starts to choke up...it dies. Takes a couple pulls to start back up when that happens. And this happens even when it's warmed up.

So I figure I'll go idle it around and let fresh gas and water run through it for a while up at the Hillsborough as it's right by the house. Put the boat it and start it up, still runs like crap. Back it up and begin to idle. The water depth by the ramp was around 10ft. I get about 200yds from the ramp and the motor shoots up. Great...

I pulled the motor up and the prop is basically destroyed...go figure. Apparently the river goes from 10ft algae/mud bottom to 10 inch rock bottom instantly.

So after I cool down a bit I head home and take the prop off. Oh...wait...theres a black ooze coming from the prop area. Wonderful.

None of this includes the small annoyances throughout the day.

So now I need to troubleshoot a crap running motor with black ooze and some how get a hold of a new/used prop with money that I don't have....

I'm going to post pictures in a few.


----------



## islander1225

hey man i have a very well used aluminum prop you can have only prob is i am in jax if you want to pay the shipping i will take some pics of it e-mail them to you and then if you want i can ship the prop to you be cheaper than of use driving to get to you, also the black depending on how black might be carbon, i ran a can of valvtect decarb through my motor when i got it and there a blackish ooze coming out of the prop exhaust.

let me know on the prop.

Alex


----------



## Brett

Hard lesson you just learned,
just because it's wet doesn't mean it's deep.
I operate under the "don't know - go slow rule"
out front Flamingo, that's the only way to get around.

Black goo is probably unburnt 2 stroke oil
and carbon trickling out of the exhaust housing.
Result of a rich running motor.

2 props are a normal safety need on any hull. Slipper has 2.

Rough running is due to fouled plugs.
Pull 'em and clean 'em.


----------



## paint it black

I was told that black ooze around the prop is regular. My friends motor does it, and I asked a mechanic about it. He said that's from the exhaust that it's normal.


----------



## rkmurphy

Pics as promised:


----------



## marshman

the black ooze is just all that "junk" you put in it burning out of the system...or years of carbon build up....

i can probably fix you up with a stainless prop, if you figure out how to get it from louisiana to you...youd have to promise to keep it off the rocks... ;D ;D


fwiw...i read all the time about all the decarbs and seafoams and stuff, i have never ever used any of those in any of my engines...ive never had any problems...

sorry you had a rough day....dont get discouraged with the motor....you have the best motor you can get...just gotta get the bugs worked out...like a dog, hes gotta get used to the new owner...

i think you have to much "junk" in it....i dont know what the procedures are for those products, but a motor wants gas and oil, and once you get that stuff all burned out, youll get it straight...might/probably need new plugs when all said and done...


----------



## marshman

yep, prop is fried...the ooze is carbon....youll have to run it out..


----------



## rkmurphy

Thanks marshman.  And everyone for that matter.  Alex (islander) has already EXTREMELY generously offered me his old prop (we have the same motor) for shipping costs.  I thought that was so great.  Again Alex, I really can't tell you how much I appreciate it.  And marshman thank you for the offer.  I'm just as appreciative that you would offer me that.  And I promise, I will do my best to keep any prop off the rocks from now on...and stay out of the d*mn Hillsborough River!

The spark plugs are brand new.  Just put them into today and gapped them to .045 which is what the old ones were.  How hard should the fuel line/primer bulb be when running?


----------



## paint it black

> Thanks marshman.  And everyone for that matter.  Alex (islander) has already EXTREMELY generously offered me his old prop (we have the same motor) for shipping costs.  I thought that was so great.  Again Alex, I really can't tell you how much I appreciate it.  And marshman thank you for the offer.  I'm just as appreciative that you would offer me that.  And I promise, I will do my best to keep any prop off the rocks from now on...and stay out of the d*mn Hillsborough River!
> 
> The spark plugs are brand new.  Just put them into today and gapped them to .045 which is what the old ones were.  How hard should the fuel line/primer bulb be when running?


Are you sure you got the right plugs? Try removing them, and clean them up. They might have gotten dirty with said additive.


----------



## iMacattack

Ouch!


----------



## rkmurphy

I removed them a little while ago. They were clean. After Brett mentioned the fouled plugs possibility I checked them. They are the right ones. The motor had NGK when I got it but all Advance Auto Parts had was Autolite. I compared them, though. Looked the same and I gapped the Autolites the same. There was a crackling noise when I revved it a little bit (maybe opened the carb 1/10th to 1/5th throttle in neutral). It may be normal but I don't know these things yet...thought I'd through it out there. Here's a video of it running at the river (post-prop destruction):



Alex said I should just run it at higher RPM for a while til everything burns out from running the mixture which is probably causing the poor running/dying issue. How long could that take?


----------



## marshman

sounds to me like you just need to run it...just gotta run that stuff out of it....did you open it at all?? did it bog down with a load?? its not missing, so thats good...i think you just gotta run it...


----------



## paint it black

It also appears to not be peeing very well kinda skittish, weak stream....... Have you checked the impeller? Or it could just be the angle in the video.


----------



## rkmurphy

It has a thermostat. When it kicks in it pees great.

How does this strategy sound...tomorrow I'll start the motor up and slip a flathead bit for a drill under the carb throttle to hold it a little higher then idle. Then I'll let it run for 15 min or so. Turn it off for 10-15 min and do it again for 10-15 min. You think it'll take care of it if I do one cycle like that?


----------



## paint it black

> *It has a thermostat.  When it kicks in it pees great.
> *
> How does this strategy sound...tomorrow I'll start the motor up and slip a flathead bit for a drill under the carb throttle to hold it a little higher then idle.  Then I'll let it run for 15 min or so.  Turn it off for 10-15 min and do it again for 10-15 min.  You think it'll take care of it if I do one cycle like that?



Well that makes sense. Sorry, I don't own a motor of that caliber. lol My 40 is an early 90's and my merc is only a 5hp..lol

That's going to be a nice fishing machine once you work out the kinks. Very nice clean hull, with a really nice motor.


----------



## rkmurphy

Well thank you sir. And nothing to be sorry about...just don't let it happen again, k? Haha kidding. But I was worried, too, when they first ran the motor for me. Then he told me and it peed out good.


----------



## paint it black

lol


----------



## islander1225

not a prob man i figured shipping is cheaper than one of us using a tank gas to deliver or pick it up, also you might want to get with your mechanic and check the gap on the plugs i just replaced mine and mechanic and book said 40 thousandths or i guess that would .040 on the gap tool. i would check it out yeah that is def a crap load of carbon...]

Alex


----------



## rkmurphy

Hmmm well I will definitly reduce the gap then. Any good tricks on reducing the gap? Increasing is easier...

Well I ran 3 15 min idle 15 min sit cycles of seafoam through it. Hopefully it's much better now. We will see when/if I get everything cleared out.

Thanks for letting me in on that, Alex. Hopefully it'll help.


----------



## Brett

> Obtain proper gap setting from owners manual.
> 
> Use a gap tool to check the gap of the spark plug. Slip the tool
> between the ground electrode and center electrode. The gap tool
> should fit snugly at the recommended gap width indicated on the tool.
> 
> Push the tool between the electrodes a few times to ensure proper gap.
> If the gap is too wide, push the ground electrode firmly against a flat
> surface to narrow the gap and then check again with the gap tool.
> 
> Repeat as necessary until you reach the correct gap.


Googled how to gap spark plugs...


----------



## rkmurphy

Haha had company over last night. I googled it and even found a video. Fixed the gap in around 3 minutes. Hopefully that'll make a bit of a difference...now to get all of that carbon out...


----------



## rkmurphy

Changed the spark gap to .040 and ran it above idle for about 15 minutes today.  It started first pull, which was nice as opposed to yesterday.  Still runs like crap but hopefully it's getting better.  Held the throttle open with a thin flat head.  It didn't want to shut off when I revved it this time, either.  May take it to a local lake next Thursday or Friday if I get a prop by then...just to open it up and run it.  I'll run it above throttle some more tomorrow.

I did notice that if I held it at 2500-3000ish (guessing) RPM it would make a loud crack sound and a puff of extra smoke would come out the exhaust.  I'm guessing it's just beating up the left over carbon?

Edit/Update: Put a paper towel down on the garage floor and no carbon sludge drip all day. Will try to idle it normal tomorrow...hopefully it's back to normal or better.


----------



## Brett

> Put a paper towel down on the garage floor


All motors will drip sludge sooner or later.
I keep a section of old carpet, 3' x 3',
centered under the outboard on the garage floor.
Catches the drips from the exhaust and engine maintenance work.


----------



## rkmurphy

She idles on her own! Ran it for about 20 minutes this morning on the hose. 10 minutes was with the flathead opening the throttle and 10 minutes was just idle. It was running with the flathead and it was like something let go and it started to rev a little higher. So I pulled the bit and it idled! About 5 minutes into the idle I revved it a little in forward and reverse (don't ask why I did both) and it did fine. Looked like it shot out a little more heavy smoke but I didn't expect it not to. I need to get it out on the water to let it really run.

I never noticed that the prop functions somewhat as a muffler. It is considerably louder with the prop off.

Also, is it normal for the motor to shake a little more when out of the water than when in the water. I noticed that when we ran it at the seller/shop it wasn't as shaky as on the back of my boat hooked to a hose. We put it in a LARGE water tank at the shop.


----------



## Brett

Water acts as a shock absorber.


----------



## rkmurphy

That's what I was thinking. Helps to hear it from a professor, though. Haha. Pending the prop situation, I'd like to take it out to a local lake and just run the piss out of it Thursday or Friday. Get the rest of the gunk out and test the speed and what-not.


----------



## Brett

Many moons ago when the earth was young and life was new, I was taught: 
The first fifteen minutes of the trip was to warm up the engine, take it slow an easy.
The majority of the trip is done at mid to 3/4 throttle, in the comfort zone.
The last stretch of calm open water was to run as fast as possible,
to blow the days accumulated crud out of the engine, before hitting the ramp.


----------



## rkmurphy

I like that. It's funny because when I was using my grandfather's boat for a while, that's basically what I did. I would idle it at the ramp to warm it up (10-15 min) then run it cruising speed throughout the day (open it up every once in a while) then at the end of the day gun it to the ramp (to get home so the wife didn't beat me). I'm typing all of this with a jack russell lating on my face. I can't really see the computer screen or keyboard. how;d I do?


----------



## rkmurphy

Received the prop today that Alex (islander) sent me.  Thanks man!  You definitely saved me.  I am going to try to make it to a local lake tomorrow sometime to run her around.  I want to finish burning off the rest of the engine gunk and open her up for a real test run.  Hopefully all will go well and I'll be able to get some good numbers (bringing the GPS).  If all goes well I'll try to make a short video and post it. This will be the first test drive of my first boat.  Wish me luck!


----------



## rkmurphy

So I finally took the boat out today. It did NOT start out good.

I got to the gas station to get some boat ramp money from the ATM and when I looked inside the boat I noticed that I forgot to unhook the fuel line and the fuel tank had slid forward, only to pop the fitting out of the primer bulb. I reattached everything and could not get the bulb to pump anything but air. I got a hose clamp from the boat ramp and tried that...same result. So...off to a Wal Mart 10 minutes from the lake.

I exchanged the crap SeaSense line for a slightly less crap Attwood line and headed back to the lake. After a little tweaking, I got the fuel line working good and providing plenty of fuel pressure. I started her up (first pull with choke  ) and she ran like crap...big surprise. I couldn't keep it running at all and I could just see/hear it puffing out the carbon smoke. I figured the carbs were gunked from the SeaFoam cleaning. A man who works at the boat ramp came up and started to talk with me and he agreed...gunked carbs. He then told me to just go ahead and idle around a bit in front of the ramp and see if I can start to open it up more. So...I did.

It shut off twice and finally kept running on lucky number 3. Each time I had to restart the motor it needed choke. Once I got it to keep running I started to give it more gas gradually. It choked up each time I gave it more but...then...it happened...she took off! It felt great! After that I cruised around for about 40 minutes just enjoying the ride, the water, and the beautiful day. I spent about 20 min at cruise or a little above, about 15 min at WOT, and about 5 idling. It still idles a little rough and chokes up at low RPM (idle) so a carb cleaning is probably in order. I hit 31mph by myself and 29mph with a 130lb man from the boat ramp who sat in the back with me (probably could have got 1 more mph had he moved up front).

I made a short video:



I know he's probably tired of hearing it but...Alex is the man! Thanks so much...definitely made this all worth it. Good day!


----------



## Unclebob

sounds healthy to me.


----------



## Flyline

Beautiful ......it ran really good.....what u mean it's idle rough?  it's a 2-stroke...not a 4-stroke. ...just run her bat out of hell!  that's what I did to muh mariner 25hp 2-stroke.

I haven't ran my 25 mariner for awhile so  I sprayed quicksilver powertuner in the carburator and in the powerhead gasket while spark plugs out. let the motor sit overnight while it soaked.  The next day...give a one pull..spray in the powerhead and the carburator and let it sit again overnight. repeated the same thing for the next 4 days. 

then put a spark plugs in  and warm up the engine for 2 minutes. doesnt matter if this run like crap or not.

get a small gas tank and filled half gallon of gas then put 3oz of quicksilver oil in it then let it warm it up while the motor is hot.

then put a whole 16oz of seaform in the gas tank then run it high idle for 15 mins and let it sit for 15 mins 3 dosages.

then last thing u need while all the crap soaked up in the motor replace to get a regular gas tank 6 gallons 50:1 ratio and run that mothercrappity smacker like u stole it for an hour! WOT! no excuse!

that 's how my 97' mariner 25hp 2-stroke runs like brand new, smooth operation, top speed power and easy start without a choke.

just help u out man.


----------



## paint it black

That thing looks like it ran great! Congratulations! Now lets see some slime in it!


----------



## rkmurphy

That's the next plan...fish blood!

Anyone know any good procedures for polishing/waxing the hull to like new condition? I'm sure some areas are probably gonna look like matte when I scrub off the mini barnacles...


----------



## paint it black

> That's the next plan...fish blood!
> 
> Anyone know any good procedures for polishing/waxing the hull to like new condition?  I'm sure some areas are probably gonna look like matte when I scrub off the mini barnacles...



Wet sand it with 1200 grit, then buff it out with some 3m rubbing compound, then glaze it with 3m foam pad glaze using a variable speed buffer/polisher. It'll look like it's brand new, or better. I guarantee it.


----------



## rkmurphy

> That's the next plan...fish blood!
> 
> Anyone know any good procedures for polishing/waxing the hull to like new condition?  I'm sure some areas are probably gonna look like matte when I scrub off the mini barnacles...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wet sand it with 1200 grit, then buff it out with some 3m rubbing compound, then glaze it with 3m foam pad glaze using a variable speed buffer/polisher.  It'll look like it's brand new, or better.  I guarantee it.
Click to expand...

How much would all of that run in materials?  I'm not looking to spend more than $10-$15 for now...

I guess Chevron Techron is the active ingredient in Quiksilver Power Tune and Quicksilver Quickleen.


----------



## paint it black

> That's the next plan...fish blood!
> 
> Anyone know any good procedures for polishing/waxing the hull to like new condition?  I'm sure some areas are probably gonna look like matte when I scrub off the mini barnacles...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wet sand it with 1200 grit, then buff it out with some 3m rubbing compound, then glaze it with 3m foam pad glaze using a variable speed buffer/polisher.  It'll look like it's brand new, or better.  I guarantee it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How much would all of that run in materials?  I'm not looking to spend more than $10-$15 for now...
Click to expand...

Well, the compound alone is probably about 15 bucks. Then you'll need glaze that's somewhere in the 20's. The pads are about 28 bucks for the pair. And the buffer would cost you about 40 at Harbor Freight. If you were any closer, I would do it for you. Doing such small boats is very simple. I also have a guy who does it REALLY cheap. I have him do it for me sometimes when I don't feel like buffing a car. He's really good too. 

It's not the cheapest option, but it'll definitely get the job done. Probably better than anything else in the market.


----------



## rkmurphy

Whitesnook...do you thinking putting a 1/4 bottle of Chevron Techron to 3 gallons fuel/oil will make a difference in cleaning the jets?


----------



## rkmurphy

Took her out on her maiden saltwater excursion today.  It runs great but idles horribly and usually requires choke to start back up.  I don't get it...what could the issue be?  I'll start it...it'll choke up and run a little bit then it'll slowly idle rougher and at a lower RPM until it dies.  Then I choke it to start again and it does the same thing.  If I idle it at a higher RPM it's not so bad.  Once I get running it's fine but if I go from idle to full throttle it will either die or hesitate.

I also noticed a squeaky/chirpy noise after/while I run the crap out of it but it goes away after a while and it didn't do it at all while I was flushing the motor...no clue what this could be either...hopefully nothing serious...anyone have any insight?

On a positive note, I got soaking wet today (as it was a little rough...and I was jumping wakes ) and had a blast running it.  I raced my fiance's 22ft Century with a 225 Merc Saltwater and beat it out of the hole.  Hahaha.  Only slightly, though.  I'm sure I could beat it even better if I could give it full throttle out of the hole!


----------



## Brett

If I was messing about with your motor, I'd remember the basics: fuel, air, spark.
Vacuum leaks can mess up the idle big time. Just like on a car.
Running rich can mess up the idle. ditto.
Fouled plugs or old plug wires arcing to the block will cause problems.
Air leaks in the fuel system between the tank and the carb will mess things up.
You get to play mechanic and find the problem...air, fuel, spark.
Sounds like fun to me...


----------



## islander1225

hey you also might want to check the fuel filter that is under the cowling, when i first got my motor it was bad and was doing the same thing put a new one in and it ran like a champ.


Alex


----------



## Brett

It's probably that attwood hose...


----------



## rkmurphy

My theories are gunked carb, fuel filter, and crap hose. I was screwing with it in my future father-in-law's driveway when he sat me down and basically said, "let a pro take care of it the first time around". A good friend that he grew up with owns a Mercury shop and he (father-in-law) offered to pay his friend to take a look at it and fix it for my birthday. So that's where she is now...and I'm sad... :'(

I tried to get my fiance to make a video and take some pics of the maiden saltwater voyage but she was too busy trying to increase her chances of skin cancer. I'm not gonna lie...I got a nice tan, too. But I was having more fun taring up the ICW sport zone and gulf on a rough day. I got soaked! But I wasn't exactly trying not to...

Ok...I don't wanna talk about it anymore...I haven't seen my boat or heard anything about it in almost 3 days and I'm getting emotional thinking about it.


----------



## iMacattack

> MI tried to get my fiance to make a video and take some pics of the maiden saltwater voyage but she was too busy trying to increase her chances of skin cancer.


 [smiley=worth.gif]


----------



## paint it black

> MI tried to get my fiance to make a video and take some pics of the maiden saltwater voyage but she was too busy trying to increase her chances of skin cancer.
> 
> 
> 
> [smiley=worth.gif]
Click to expand...

x2!


----------



## rkmurphy

Just heard back from the shop earlier today. They inspected everything (checked for leaks, checked spark compression, etc.) and replaced the fuel filter which was apparently horrible. Then they ran it for a while and all was good. Then they took it out and did a water test and all was good, too. I guess the fuel filter replacement and the mixture (1 bottle Quickleen to 6 gal gas/oil mix) sitting in the motor and loosening varnish did the job. Good day!

Going to pick it up tomorrow and test it for myself...hopefully soak it with some fish slime! Will at least get some pics for you pic hungry microskiffers. Sorry about the lack thereof on the maiden voyage.

Thanks for everyone's help!


----------



## Frank_Sebastian

Nice looking cooler seat. Do you have to fasten it down? I bought a few nice coolers from "Habitat For Humanity" over here near Vero Beach. If you have one near you it might just pay to look there. One is a 96 quart size Igloo that came with a really nice snap on cushion. They are used, of course, though very reasonable in price. < $25 for the cooler seat by Igloo.

Frank_S


----------



## rkmurphy

Well I came down to Venice today to pick up the boat and go out for a nice day on the water. Mission accomplished but...you guys are going to be mad...I forgot the camera in the truck.

Motor idled nicely and ran great. Went to a local island with the dogs and hung out. The only problem I'm having now is the motor won't shift into reverse sometimes. I guess I'll have to mess with the linkage and see what the issue is. Sometimes it shifts smoothly...others it won't shift at all. But only for reverse...forward is fine and shifts very smoothly.

On the bad side...I have to leave it in Venice again until next weekend . The future father in law is insisting on having an electrical setup done for me so I have my lights and bilge ready to go. I can't take this...I need some flats fix!


----------



## rkmurphy

> Nice looking cooler seat. Do you have to fasten it down? I bought a few nice coolers from "Habitat For Humanity" over here near Vero Beach. If you have one near you it might just pay to look there. One is a 96 quart size Igloo that came with a really nice snap on cushion. They are used, of course, though very reasonable in price. < $25 for the cooler seat by Igloo.
> 
> Frank_S


Frank I don't have a cooler seat. Planning on getting a Yeti w/ seat that I can mount/remove, though.


----------



## islander1225

> hey you also might want to check the fuel filter that is under the cowling, when i first got my motor it was bad and was doing the same thing put a new one in and it ran like a champ.
> 
> 
> Alex





DANG SOUNDS LIKE I KNEW EXACTLY WHAT YOUR PROB WAS MAN LOL



GOOD TO HEAR IT IS RUNNING STRONG AGAIN..


ALEX


----------



## rkmurphy

> hey you also might want to check the fuel filter that is under the cowling, when i first got my motor it was bad and was doing the same thing put a new one in and it ran like a champ.
> 
> 
> Alex
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DANG SOUNDS LIKE I KNEW EXACTLY WHAT YOUR PROB WAS MAN LOL
> 
> 
> 
> GOOD TO HEAR IT IS RUNNING STRONG AGAIN..
> 
> 
> ALEX
Click to expand...

Well I wouldn't have even known about any problem if it wasn't for your help! Haha but yeah that may have turned out to be it. I want my boat back...now...


----------



## rkmurphy

Just finished my tiller extension project. Materials used were:

- 2' section of 1.5" Sched 40 PVC (cut to length)
- 5' section of 1" Sched 40 PVC (cut to length)
- 1 x 1.5" coupler
- 1 x 1.5" to 1" bushing
- 1 x 1" adapter
- 1 x 1" cap
- 1 x small can of medium PVC cement
- 1 x What-a-Grip tennis racquet handle cover (thanks SaltFlyer from the CG forum for the idea!)
- 1 x roll of electrical tape
- 1 x can of Valspar Gloss Black Plastic Spray paint
- 1 x sheet of 60 grit
- 1 x cutting drill bit used for smoothing/perfecting edges and lines ($5 @ Lowes)
- 1 x boiling pot of water
- 1 x random vitamin bottle that happened to be 2" in diameter

Total cost of materials was around $20 but if you have the tools (which I lack many) it's really around $15.

I used a drill to make holes for the gaps and a jigsaw to make the cuts. I perfected (as much as possible) the lines with the cutting bit and sandpaper on a ruler (******* Tech file...thanks Brett!).

It turned out pretty decent although I'm not 100% satisfied with the paint job. I scored the PVC with some 60 grit so the paint would adhere better. It definitely adhered great but doesn't leave a nice, smooth, glossy finish. Even with 3 coats.

Here's pics:
































































I hope it fits as I won't get my boat until Friday @ the earliest. I took measurements before I left it, though.

Let me know what you think or if you have any questions.


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## Brett

Looks like it will work.
Paint doesn't matter, it's going to get chewed up anyhow.
If chips and scratches bug you, carry a black permanent marker.
Easy touch up.


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## tom_in_orl

> Let me know what you think or if you have any questions.


I think you have a neat looking tiller extension but I don't have confidence that the PVC part that attaches to the tiller will be strong enough. Especially if you are running decent size motor. (I think you have a 25 hp). PVC is not that strong to begin with and to me it looks like you have removed quite a bit making the part that fits over the tiller. I may be wrong but please be careful.


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## paint it black

> Let me know what you think or if you have any questions.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have a neat looking tiller extension but I don't have confidence that the PVC part that attaches to the tiller will be strong enough. Especially if you are running decent size motor. (I think you have a 25 hp). PVC is not that strong to begin with and to me it looks like you have removed quite a bit making the part that fits over the tiller. I may be wrong but please be careful.
Click to expand...


I was thinking the exact same thing.


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## rkmurphy

> Let me know what you think or if you have any questions.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have a neat looking tiller extension but I don't have confidence that the PVC part that attaches to the tiller will be strong enough. Especially if you are running decent size motor. (I think you have a 25 hp). PVC is not that strong to begin with and to me it looks like you have removed quite a bit making the part that fits over the tiller. I may be wrong but please be careful.
Click to expand...

I didn't remove very much at all. It just looks like it because when I molded it, it increased the gap. I used schedule 40 PVC, as well, for extra stiffness and way more strength. That on top of the short length, to me, would leave very little room for a chance for breaking. Hopefully...


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## HaMm3r

I think you did a super job! Great craftsmanship. [smiley=1-thumbsup1.gif]

If the tip of your tiller handle fits all the way down into the thicker PVC coupler then you shouldn't have to worry as much about breakage. Still, be careful at first.


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## rkmurphy

> I think you did a super job! Great craftsmanship. [smiley=1-thumbsup1.gif]
> 
> If the tip of your tiller handle fits all the way down into the thicker PVC coupler then you shouldn't have to worry as much about breakage. Still, be careful at first.


Thank you. And all of the fittings fit all of the way down. I can't wait to test it!


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## rkmurphy

Went out for a couple hours today to get myself and my fiance out of the house. Beautiful day. Nice strong incoming tide incoming tide but I didn't have a trolling motor (now accepting donations) to get me into and out of the skinnys fast enough for our lack of time. I got the line wet and tried out my new Mir-o-dine but not-a-bite.

The tiller extension worked BEAUTIFULLY. What a difference. I will never go out without it.

Everything went good but when I was approaching the boat ramp and went to put it into neutral it didn't go in and began to rev funny. I ran to the front and attempted to stop the boat from nailing the dock but didn't help very much. I tore off about an 8 inch section of bump strip from the front edge, broke off about a 6 inch section of about half of the layers of fiberglass (within the bump guard strip section), put a small crack in fiberglass on the back edge of that section, and some small cracks in the gelcoat on the front. SUPER .

Blessing in disguise I guess. I get to do my first minor glass repair. So I went to the autoparts store (Ace was closed) and got a $7 tube of Permatex epoxy. I applied 2 coats to the in need areas with my my finger (I wore latex gloves, of course) and am going to let it cure overnight. It is dry, now, and it's amazing how much more rigid the epoxy made it. Next I'll clean it up with some 60 grit and reseal the bump guard strips on with some 5200. Then I'll polish it up with that Turtle Wax Ice stuff (makes rubber stripping AND gelcoat look great!)...good as new...kinda 

Now my only concern is figuring out this shift problem thing. When flushing the motor I messed with it and it worked fine. Shifted easily into forward and reverse every time. When it was "stuck" or whatever in gear, I noticed it revved for a while and sounded like something clicked. Then it sounded fine. Maybe it wasn't stuck in gear and it was just revving from going WOT for the last 5 min...I don't know. Like I said, it shifted fine when flushing.

Another thing I have a problem with is...I don't have any good recent pictures of the boat! That is going to have to change. I'll get some up tomorrow or Wednesday. Sorry for the lack of them.


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## paint it black

My friends boat was having problems with shifting too. When he put it into neutral it would begin to rev really high and it was only as we were pulling into the boat ramp. It then popped a pin that held the shift linkage. So the motor is always in gear. We put a new pin in it, but it keeps revving up really high until that pin broke off as well. We've been fishing it like that for a while now, but it's a pain in the a$s. lol 

He's got to take it to a mechanic to get it fixed. 



And, you seem to have some real bad luck!


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## rkmurphy

> My friends boat was having problems with shifting too. When he put it into neutral it would begin to rev really high and it was only as we were pulling into the boat ramp. It then popped a pin that held the shift linkage. So the motor is always in gear. We put a new pin in it, but it keeps revving up really high until that pin broke off as well. We've been fishing it like that for a while now, but it's a pain in the a$s. lol
> 
> He's got to take it to a mechanic to get it fixed.
> 
> 
> 
> And, you seem to have some real bad luck!


It's good to hear that I'm not the only one to ever have this problem. It's funny that it's under the same circumstances.

And yes...tremendously bad luck...and not just with boats. Computers, cell phones, you name it.

What did you all end up thinking the problem was?


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## paint it black

> My friends boat was having problems with shifting too. When he put it into neutral it would begin to rev really high and it was only as we were pulling into the boat ramp. It then popped a pin that held the shift linkage. So the motor is always in gear. We put a new pin in it, but it keeps revving up really high until that pin broke off as well. We've been fishing it like that for a while now, but it's a pain in the a$s. lol
> 
> He's got to take it to a mechanic to get it fixed.
> 
> 
> 
> And, you seem to have some real bad luck!
> 
> 
> 
> It's good to hear that I'm not the only one to ever have this problem.  It's funny that it's under the same circumstances.
> 
> And yes...tremendously bad luck...and not just with boats.  Computers, cell phones, you name it.
> 
> What did you all end up thinking the problem was?
Click to expand...

 We have no clue what the problem is. So we just left it without the pin and fish it like that. He's going to get it fixed soon, but he only has time to take it to a mechanic on the weekends, and that's the only time he has to fish, so........lol Without the pin it doesn't act up. The only thing is that it's always in gear. So we have to turn the boat around at the ramp and start it up with a moving start. lol It idles perfectly without the pin.


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## HaMm3r

How the heck do you start it in gear! I just about yank my shoulder out of the socket everytime I forget to put it in neutral before pulling the rope. Quessing electric start?

Anyway, did you know that the shift rod that runs vertically from under the cowling down into the lower unit is adjustable? It's threaded on the bottom end and you basically unscrew it to make it longer or screw it in to shorten it. That's how it is on my Merc, anyway. Maybe it's out of adjustment slightly, which might make it shift into neutral while still slightly throttled up. I guess if there's too much tension on it, it could shear the pin on the top end? I don't know...


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## paint it black

> How the heck do you start it in gear! I just about yank my shoulder out of the socket everytime I forget to put it in neutral before pulling the rope. Quessing electric start?
> 
> Anyway, did you know that the shift rod that runs vertically from under the cowling down into the lower unit is adjustable? It's threaded on the bottom end and you basically unscrew it to make it longer or screw it in to shorten it. That's how it is on my Merc, anyway. Maybe it's out of adjustment slightly, which might make it shift into neutral while still slightly throttled up. I guess if there's too much tension on it, it could shear the pin on the top end? I don't know...



You know what, that makes PLENTY of sense. The boat was having problems with shifting into reverse so my friend was messing with the cable adjustments. I'm sure he screwed something up and didn't realize it. And yes, electric start on a 40hp Johnson.


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## Brett

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=shift+rod+adjustment+outboard


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## HaMm3r

> How the heck do you start it in gear! I just about yank my shoulder out of the socket everytime I forget to put it in neutral before pulling the rope. Quessing electric start?
> 
> Anyway, did you know that the shift rod that runs vertically from under the cowling down into the lower unit is adjustable? It's threaded on the bottom end and you basically unscrew it to make it longer or screw it in to shorten it. That's how it is on my Merc, anyway. Maybe it's out of adjustment slightly, which might make it shift into neutral while still slightly throttled up. I guess if there's too much tension on it, it could shear the pin on the top end? I don't know...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know what, that makes PLENTY of sense. The boat was having problems with shifting into reverse so my friend was messing with the cable adjustments. I'm sure he screwed something up and didn't realize it. And yes, electric start on a 40hp Johnson.
Click to expand...

I tried to explain it better over in your outboard maintenance thread. Take a look. It may help or just confuse you more. I make no promises either way.


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## rkmurphy

Thanks for the help Hammer.  I am starting with AFA Marine's theory (because it's extremely simple) and if that doesn't work, I'm moving to your's.

Here's the pics, as promised:


















































































This is just the beginning...


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## paint it black

The skiff is looking great!


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## rkmurphy

Thank you. Looking at El Pesc's pics of him washing the Copperhead (beautiful boat btw) inspired me to give her her first real bath. After that I gave her a decent polish with Turtle Wax Ice liquid polish. Shined it up nicely. I'm probably going to end up getting some rubbing compound and polishing it out the right way.

I also scraped some of the micro-mini-barnacles off of the bottom. PVC pipe leftovers work great for this ! And no damage to gelcoat with PVC, either.


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## Unclebob

very nice!!


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## rkmurphy

Took her out for a post-final exam trip today, just to relax and enjoy nature. The fiance and dogs went with us and it was a beautiful day.

The best part...finally got to go on a trip with no major issues! Yeeeeeeeeeeah! Out of the slump!

The reverse issue did come back to haunt me but not as bad as before. I think it may have something to do with the little trim lever thing.

Also, I have narrowed down the squeak issue to some sort of air/fuel mixture coming off WOT. The reason being as I didn't notice it while I was running WOT (maybe I just couldn't hear it) but when I got back down to 1/2 throttle I did notice it. I decreased RPM to idle and went to give it more gas and it sounded like it burned off some carbon (popped sort of) and no more squeak. It ran perfect from that point.

I'll post that to the outboard forum, too.

Anyways...bottom line is beautiful day, got skunked, but got to finally use the new boat and have a good time.


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## rkmurphy

Happy Birthday to me! [smiley=partyguy.gif]

My fiance decided to give me my birthday present a few days early and I have to say....I'm a lucky man.

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_103796_225001004_225000000_225001000_225-1-4?ordProd=Y&CMID=TOP_selectitems#itemDetail

It's the 52" shaft 5/3 speed. I get it next Friday! I can't wait to use it.

All I need is a battery...which one should I get? Best bang for the buck...


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## islander1225

nice man way to go, i reccomend getting the small marinco plug and receptacle for it, i guess she had to make it up to for all those times she forgot the camera lol.


Alex


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## rkmurphy

I got the trolling motor in Thursday and started installing it today. I also got new springs, hubs, bearings, and bearing buddies for the trailer. So, today was a busy day. I got the trailer done including "galvanizing" and painting the new springs and old axle. I used a wire wheel on the drill to blast off some of the rust. It turned out pretty nice and it was my first trailer experience. I'll take some pics and post them tomorrow.

I still need to finish the trolling motor later this week. I hit some "road blocks"...I go into details later...heading to a movie.


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## rkmurphy

I still haven't gotten a chance to take some pics as I've been studying for an exam I have in the morning. Tax laws :-/

Anyway I thought I'd explain the roadblocks real quick since I'm taking a short break.

The bolts that came with the trolling motor were too long to work with the bracket. I measured and the bolts need to be 2.25". Of course, no where has 2.25" bolts. Great. So I buy a hack saw. What a bad idea. It took forever and messed up the top thread so you couldn't put a nut on. Finally, someone at TA Mahoney suggested going to Harbor Freight Tools and getting a dremel tool. It turns out there's one about 10 minutes from the house. I got a 16,000 rpm dremel with 80 pieces and a hole saw bit set for the drill for less than $14. I'm in love.

I figured the job would go quick...and then realized I'm dealing with stainless steel hardware. Each bolt took ~20-30 min to cut down. My trolling motor's instructions say to use at least 4 fasteners and 6 if possible. I used 4. ;D

So, I go to put the fasteners on and realize the depression which the nut goes in isn't wide enough to take a ratchet. Super. I got an idea to try jamming a flathead in between the nut wall and the wall of the depression and tighten from the bracket side. Worked like a charm 

So, I got the whole motor assembled and next was the plug. I used the hole saw to drill the hole and found out that my front deck is cored with plywood. This makes me realize that the rotting "core material" that complicated my recessed cleat (because the PO didn't seal it and just screwed it in!) is actually rotting wood that will most likely eventually spread to the rest of the deck. Oh well...I will deal with it when the time comes.

I spread some marine epoxy around the hole surface thick and sanded it till I could just barely hammer the receptacle in. I sealed the screw holes for the mounting plate and the actual mounting plate with 5200 to prevent water from entering the deck.

I'm just waiting for the 5200 on my jimmy-rigged battery tray to cure to the deck so I can tie down the battery and complete the hook-up of the circuit breaker and wires to the terminals.

Hopefully the battery tray holds...if not the incline isn't very steep so I'm not too concerned with the battery leaking.

I'm really sorry about starving you all of some boat porn. Been too busy with these summer classes. I'll do my best to get them up by tomorrow night.


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## iMacattack

Welcome to B.O.A.T. enjoy your stay... ;D

(Break Out Another Thousand)


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## rkmurphy

> Welcome to B.O.A.T. enjoy your stay...  ;D
> 
> (Break Out Another Thousand)


I'm learning fast  

Pics as promised...I'll try to get some better ones tomorrow.  Just some quick snaps I took during my study break after I completely finished the trolling motor.  Yay!  Now I have to test it...



























































































The battery thing worked out kind of weird.  The 5200 had been curing for about 14 hours (it's the quick-cure stuff) so I figured it was okay to go ahead and mount the battery.  I shimmied the battery in (huge pain in the a**) and the front of the battery was at the front of the hold down tray but the rear, as you can see in the pics, won't go passed a certain point.  It's jammed against the wall.  I guess that's good because it's a decently solid hold, especially with the strap.  On top of that, it also leveled itself by getting jammed like that.  If it holds, fine by me.

My trolling motor indicated that the new battery on has 3/4 charge.  Is that normal?


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## paint it black

Looks good. Although, I think you should change the cable ends. Those are automotive grade, and they will corrode. Once it corrodes, it will start draining the battery.


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## rkmurphy

> Looks good. Although, I think you should change the cable ends. Those are automotive grade, and they will corrode. Once it corrodes, it will start draining the battery.


That's what they gave me at TA Mahoney . I asked if they had stainless and they said "it doesn't conduct good". Well I guess neither does copper if it's completely corroded...


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## paint it black

> Looks good. Although, I think you should change the cable ends. Those are automotive grade, and they will corrode. Once it corrodes, it will start draining the battery.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they gave me at TA Mahoney  .  I asked if they had stainless and they said "it doesn't conduct good".  Well I guess neither does copper if it's completely corroded...
Click to expand...


The marine grade ones are silver in color. lol The cables are too. The cables are copper but they have a protective coating that is silver in color.


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## rkmurphy

> Looks good. Although, I think you should change the cable ends. Those are automotive grade, and they will corrode. Once it corrodes, it will start draining the battery.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they gave me at TA Mahoney  .  I asked if they had stainless and they said "it doesn't conduct good".  Well I guess neither does copper if it's completely corroded...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The marine grade ones are silver in color. lol The cables are too. The cables are copper but they have a protective coating that is silver in color.
Click to expand...

Oh . The cables are marine grade. The terminal things are not.


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## ecu0107

RK, my trolling motor charge indicator has never shown a full charge on my battery - the most it ever shows is 3/4, so either both of ours are broken or its normal.


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## cal1320

Looks good. 

Turn your lug nuts around. The taper goes towards the rim to keep it centered.


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## rkmurphy

> Looks good.
> 
> Turn your lug nuts around. The taper goes towards the rim to keep it centered.


Really? I figured it was just like a car...oh well. Thanks a lot. I'll jack it up today and fix that.


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## Brett

Did you grease your nuts?

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1227656898


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## paint it black

> Looks good.
> 
> Turn your lug nuts around. The taper goes towards the rim to keep it centered.
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  I figured it was just like a car...oh well.  Thanks a lot.  I'll jack it up today and fix that.
Click to expand...


The tapered side goes in on cars too.  That is so the rim is centered on the hub evenly, and it helps the lug nuts grip to the wheel as well.


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## rkmurphy

> Looks good.
> 
> Turn your lug nuts around. The taper goes towards the rim to keep it centered.
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  I figured it was just like a car...oh well.  Thanks a lot.  I'll jack it up today and fix that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The tapered side goes in on cars too.  That is so the rim is centered on the hub evenly, and it helps the lug nuts grip to the wheel as well.
Click to expand...

The nuts hath been turned and lubed. All that's left to do now is give her a bath and mount the cooler. And get much more fish blood in her.

I noticed one of my tires is slightly off balance but whatever...I'll replaced those when the time comes.

After trying to mount the cooler today I realized the tie-downs I got were crap. I'll have to return them tomorrow and get the turnbuckle style ones. I'm going to cut 2 small squares of some sort of Starboard type material and 5200 it to the deck. Then I'll drill the turnbuckle mounts into that.

After that I'm all done. I need to fish!

And I will get some more pics on Wednesday.


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## Brett

> 2 small squares of some sort of Starboard type material and 5200 it to the deck.


Bad idea! Almost nothing sticks to starboard type material.
Try pressure treated lumber and epoxy. that'll produce an effective bond.
Make sure the lumber is completely dry before bonding.


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## rkmurphy

> 2 small squares of some sort of Starboard type material and 5200 it to the deck.
> 
> 
> 
> Bad idea! Almost nothing sticks to starboard type material.
> Try pressure treated lumber and epoxy. that'll produce an effective bond.
> Make sure the lumber is completely dry before bonding.
Click to expand...

That's how the PO installed the "gunwale" rod holders and they work great. I just figured it was a starboard material but I could be wrong. You don't even think 5200 would adhere? I'll see what the have at West Marine. I want something white that's unnoticeable.


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## Brett

Rod holders no one sits or stands on. They come loose, who cares.
A cooler is a different story, think how you'd feel if a guest is injured when the cooler mount pops loose.

read this:

http://www.kingplastic.com/InfoCenter/glue.aspx


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## ecu0107

I use 5200 to adhere pieces of the cheap white cutting board to my boat and then screw into the cutting board. Works like a champ! Never had any problems with adhesion and you can get a huge cutting board from walmart for $10.


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## rkmurphy

> I use 5200 to adhere pieces of the cheap white cutting board to my boat and then screw into the cutting board.  Works like a champ!  Never had any problems with adhesion and you can get a huge cutting board from walmart for $10.


I like it! I may just pick one up tomorrow! It the cutting board cut pretty easily with a hack saw?


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## ecu0107

Yeah a hacksaw with a fine tooth blade. 

For larger cuts, I have used a jig saw. Both work fine.


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## rkmurphy

A couple quick, late night updates. I finally got the cowling painted and the battery tray level. The battery tray doesn't look pretty or look solid but it hasn't crapped out yet. Let's hope it stays that way.

Pics:




























The battery is level despite how the pics may make it look...I could crawl inside the deck to get a good pic.

A friend of the family (fiance's aunt's fiance...I know) happened to do a lot of work on cars and had some left over black paint. He sprayed the cowling for me free of charge. It looks great.

Here's some shots I snapped tonight...not the greatest :-/ :



















On another positive note, the motor performed well and peed well this past weekend. Unfortunately, my rewind starter rope broke...on the water...but...luckily there was a small piece left which gave me one more chance to start it and get to the ramp. I succeeded and we got back in safely. So now the motor pees good (for now!) and has a new starter rope!

The rope was so rotten it was bound to happen, anyways. The fix only cost $11 in rope @ Home Depot (only sold it by the bag with about 30 ft in it ) and about 20 minutes of time.

Hoping to get on the water this weekend as well. Wish me luck. I'll try to take some more pics and maybe convince the fiance to take some action pics.


----------



## rkmurphy

More pics I took right after I finished the birthday mods. I don't know why I never posted them...


----------



## paint it black

The paint on the cowling turned out great.


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## rkmurphy

> The paint on the cowling turned out great.


Thanks man. I'm glad I took your advice and got a real paint job done instead of going with a can.


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## rkmurphy

A couple of updates.

As some of you know, my old tiller extension ate it on the way to the bash.  I made a new one a little differently by not using a threaded fitting (where the old one broke) and making one small slit to mold on the bottom of the extension versus 2 large cut-outs on the sides of the extension.  This way I have more PVC which adds strength.

Pics:




























Some pics from the CRB Ramp with the new decals and it just lookin' pretty:


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## backwaterbandits

The CS is looking great!
Good luck this weekend, Dave


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## WhiteDog70810

I kinda liked the pre-decal, black death, Darth Vader look. However, a shiny cowling makes the entire boat look new. Looks good.

Nate


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## Frank_Sebastian

Murph you have stayed the course and done very well. You deserve some trouble free boating and good fishing. 

Kudos and best regards,
Frank_S


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## JaredFacemyer

Awesome boat, looking great.


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## noeettica

Looks Great ! Like the pot of Gold at the end of the rainbow ....

Dave


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## rkmurphy

Got the Wang bracket installed (Thanks Ted/INSHORE SLAM!!). Then I went out and bought a Wang with money I don't have. But I have a Wang now ;D

By the way...can any sentence that has to do with a Wang anchor NOT sound funny?


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## Brett

Now you've done it!
Every time you hit the water, you'll be looking out the corners of your eyes,
to see if anyone is checking out your Wang...
                 
                             [smiley=paranoid.gif]


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## Woodie

This could start some WANG envy.......


----------

