# Vertigo's next Build - Redfish 17



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

I had so much fun designing, building and running my 14 ft. skiff, that I've decided to move up to one size larger. Attached are a few preliminary drawings for a 17 ft., two-man, tournament oriented boat. The boat is designed specifically to be light and run shallow and fast on low horsepower. I'm planning around the 70 hp Yamaha 4-stroke, but similar performance could probably be had with the 60 hp e-TEC, and outrageous performance with an older Yamaha 90 hp 2-stroke. To keep weight, cost, and complexity down, I'm planning on tiller steering, and no need for trim tabs, so maybe the 90 hp is out. Specs: LOA - 17', Beam - 6' 4", Deadrise - 2 degrees at the transom, all up weight with just the skipper - 950#, pocket tunnel hull. Performance estimates put the WOT speed range from 40 to 50 mph, depending on load. Check out the drawings and let me know what you think.


----------



## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

Did you do this in sketchup again?


----------



## junkin35 (Nov 20, 2011)

Throw in a little carolina flare and I'd take one.


----------



## Creek Runner (Sep 1, 2011)

Good looking skiff! But I think 50mph is a stretch with the bottom your going to be running.

Good luck with the build!


----------



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

CW: Yes, I used Sketchup.  It's a pain, but it's free, and it gets the job done for the simple stuff I'm doing.

junkin:  Good idea, but I'm afraid this is going to be a wet boat in chop/cross winds no matter how much flair.  OTOH, since the skipper can stand, all the spray will hit below his waist.  The environment this boat is designed for is flats and creeks.  If I have to run open water in bad chop, I'll just suffer.

CreekRunner:  You're probably right.  I'll be satisfied if it hits 40 with a full crew and load running the Yamaha 70.  If I hang a 90 on it, all bets are off.


----------



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Based on input from readers, I've modified the design.  I'm still looking at a weight for boat, motor, gear, gass, and crew of around 1000# or less (compared to a Maverick HPX-V with a test weight of 1275#)  LOA 17'3", max beam 6'4".  With this iteration, there is more volume forward, and a little more flare.  Here are the updated drawings:


----------



## blittle (Jun 3, 2012)

Sweet design and sketch. You're good.


----------



## hooked-up (Dec 20, 2011)

looking at length/beam and with little deadrise is sliding in turns gonna be an issue? Not familiar with tunnel hull so not sure if that helps prevent this or not. Like the idea of light and simple.


----------



## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

> looking at length/beam and with little deadrise is sliding in turns gonna be an issue? Not familiar with tunnel hull so not sure if that helps prevent this or not. Like the idea of light and simple.


Tunnel hulls tend to slide more on turns.


----------



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Tunnels do tend to slide in turns. I've owned about a half dozen tunnel hull boats, and some are better than others. My Pathfinder 17T (sold it) slid like an airboat, but my SeaArk (still own it) doesn't slide at all. The 14 skiff I just built does not slide, and the small amount of deadrise and light weight make it possible to steer through wide turns just by shifting weight. I'm hoping a similar aft hull shape in this design won't slide either. The danger with a flat bottomed tunnel is that the prop/skeg are the only things providing stability in a hard turn...if the prop lets go, the boat slides.


----------



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

I've done a more detailed weight analysis and come up with the following all up weights with skipper, trolling moter, batteries, gear, motor, gas, etc:

Motor, Total Weight, WOT speed range 
eTec 60hp, 927#, 41mph to 46mph
Yamaha 70hp, 934#, 44mph to 49mph
eTec 90hp, 997#, 48mph to 56mph

I like the eTecs for many reasons, but I like the weight/performance range of the Yamaha too. Which motor would you choose and why?


----------



## jfboothe (Dec 19, 2012)

I am no boat designer but when I was building the Crystal I spent a lot of time reviewing the regulations. The USCG regs on safe powering confused me the most especially how you jump up in HP rating from having a 20" transom and remote steering and how a flat bottom hard chined boat affected the rating too. Is it even legal to have a 70-90hp tiller engine on a boat like that per the regualtions? I am just asking out of curiosity and for a homebuilt I guess it really doesn't matter. 

I really like the look of it though.


----------



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Interesting point. Did the USCG inspect your boat? No one said a thing to me when I jumped through all the state hoops to register my last build...and there's a Coast Guard station about 2 blocks away. I wave at them every day. Do the regs even apply? Any real lawyers here?

I found this statement:

"While we encourage recreational boat owners to use the information for their benefit, compliance with the regulations is the responsibility of the boat manufacturers."

which sort of leads me to believe that homebuilders are encouraged to use the regulations for guidance, but not required to comply.

In any case, I figure the 70hp Yamaha would fit the bill (and the guidelines) as a tiller. If I go with remote steering, 130hp would fit the guidelines. Funny though, I see much crazier stuff on the water every day. What is remote steering? If I use a real long tiller, is that remote?


----------



## jfboothe (Dec 19, 2012)

No inspection for me and I don't believe there is any requirement for a homebuilder to have a capacity plate. I wasn't really questioning your choice of motors. I was more questioning the regulations on the subject and how they apply to homebuilts. Do the regs mean you have to have remote steering and a 20" transom or do they mean you have to have one or the other?

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title33-vol2/xml/CFR-2010-title33-vol2-part183-subpartD.xml


----------



## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Each state has it's own reg's.
Look 'em up and follow 'em.
Federal law applies also, enforced by the USCG and on water LEO's.

http://www.boatingbasicsonline.com/content/general/3_7.php

Failure to have a capacity plate is not an enforcement priority,
but, if the LEO decides to be a stickler, there are fines involved.
Lack of a plate or overpowering can be used as a reason
to keep you off the water, if the officer is so inclined.

I printed up my own capacity plate and laminated it under the gunnel
as recommended by the regs here in Florida. And yes
I was given a pat on the back by the Marine Patrol Officer
who inspected my boat at the ramp one morning about a year
after it was titled and registered.


----------



## jfboothe (Dec 19, 2012)

From what I can find, a capacity plate is only required for commercially manufactured boats. I did find this interesting from the USCG Vessel Safety Check Manual:

http://www.uscg.mil/directives/cim/16000-16999/cim_16796_8.pdf 

The Capacity Plate contains important information. The
operator should clearly understand it. It provides information
for the maximum safe limits under ideal sea conditions.
Changes in the state of the weather and seas will reduce this
capacity.

If there is no capacity plate on a boat less than 20 feet,
the following formula can be used to determine the maximum
number of persons that can be safely carried in calm
weather:

Boat length multiplied by boat width divided by 15
(L x W/15) =Number people that can be safely carried in calm waters.

The capacity plate also provides information on the maximum
horsepower limits. While the horsepower rating on the
capacity label is “advisory” in nature, some states have laws
prohibiting any overpowering. Outboard motors with greater
horsepower than listed on the capacity plate are possibly in
violation of these laws. In addition, most manufacturers will
void the warranty if the boat is overpowered. Some insurance
companies may cancel policies because of the overpowering.
(VEs should be aware of state law applicability.)


----------



## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

I adhered to the regs I found in this publication:

http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/boat_builders_handbook_and_regulations.aspx

Note the comment on certification on page 38 of this publication, page 41 of the pdf:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/pdfs/SafetyStandardforBackyardBoatBuilders.pdf


----------



## jfboothe (Dec 19, 2012)

It would appear that in the usual spirit of our federal government the requirements are clear as mud...

So it can't hurt to have a capacity plate. Now I have to try and decipher the regs to come up with my max capacities. Well I don't really since the BoatDesigner already did that, but we didn't figure in remote steering.


----------



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

According to the guidelines, my 14ft skiff could carry 4 people and 25hp.  No way in hell would I ever consider that kind of load and power.  Just shows what happens when government gets involved with issues that should be personal responsibility.  One size does not fit all, and no matter what the politicians do they can't legislate away stupidity...including their own. So if I put a plate on my boat saying max hp 25, max capacity 4, then sold the boat, somewhere down the line you can bet that some idiot would load it up with 4 souls and 25 horses and proceed out 10 miles...but it would be OK because the plate said so.


----------



## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

I used the numbers from your Solo build...

14 x 4.58 = 64.12

round off to 64

I'm going to call it flat bottomed (2.5° ain't enough to really call it a vee   )

So 64 x .5 = 32

32 - 15 = 17 hp using the 15" transom flat bottom factors.

That seems to be a little more realistic than 25 hp... 

closer to the hp rating of the Alumacraft jon with similar hull dimensions

http://www.alumacraft.com/1436.php


----------



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Since the "standards" don't give any kind of definition of V, a hull must either be a V hull or flat bottomed. My skiff is not flat bottomed, so it must be a V. This is another example of how one size does not fit all. But, OK, 15hp, 4 people, 10 miles offshore.  Is that any safer? 

The point is that the unintended consequences of poorly crafted legislation, in this case, has made it easier for stupid people to do stupid things.


----------



## Boatdesigner (Dec 9, 2009)

Sorry not to respond sooner, been away and now I got some kind of bug that's slowing me down. As if I wasn't slow enough already! Life sucks without an immune system!

I think the hull plate question is best served by installing one. When it will really become an issue, that is if you never get boarded, is when you sell the boat. Will you now be considered a manufacturer? It would take someone with some legal training to answer that, so you might as well get a plate made up and be on the safe side. I have calculated that stuff out for my designs, you guys designing them yourselves will have to use your drawings and come up with the correct figures. If you need any help with that stuff Vertigo, send me a PM. 

As for horsepower, the calculation is pretty strange and doesn't take much of the design into account. The Crystal 16 comes out to 85 hp with the steering Hoosier has added to the boat. But, unlike other designers, I include a weight limit on the outboard. So Hoosier, keep that in mind if you decide you want your Crystal 16 to be a rocket ship! ;D


----------



## jfboothe (Dec 19, 2012)

Hmmmm....85hp.....I'll have to think about that. :


----------

