# Help me with fly lines



## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

Aight fellas help me understand. So started throwing an 8wt about 2 years ago. Started off with a crosswater with a behemoth reel lined with rio redfish 8wt. I recently just changed over to a TFO Pro series II and just lined my reel with some SA Mastery Grand Slam. I got it cause I thought it would load a little faster at shorter distances but it feels the same as the rio to me. 

I just need some help on understanding what taper serves what purpose. 

appreciate it.


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/all-about-fly-lines


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

DeepSouthFly said:


> Aight fellas help me understand. So started throwing an 8wt about 2 years ago. Started off with a crosswater with a behemoth reel lined with rio redfish 8wt. I recently just changed over to a TFO Pro series II and just lined my reel with some SA Mastery Grand Slam. I got it cause I thought it would load a little faster at shorter distances but it feels the same as the rio to me.
> 
> I just need some help on understanding what taper serves what purpose.
> 
> appreciate it.


So what are you fishing for and where are you fishing. How does both lines behave where you want to improve it? Where are you located?


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

I am not familiar with the Crosswater rod you are using but if the lines cast the same the rod is not compatible with either heavy short head line type or it could be your casting technique. I have a 90's model Sage Graphite III that does not cast well with the more advanced forward taper fast rod fly lines. I have not really tried to match any of the new lines to the old rod


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

I'm redfishing. And more than likely it's my technique. I mainly am just wanting to understand different tapers for different action rods and things like that. Also a tarpon set up, I'm thinking about getting a 12wt. Where do I start as far as rods and line? Prolly gonna go with a Tibor reel but I'm not sure which one yet.


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## CrappieFisherman (Mar 15, 2015)

So that 8wt Pro II really wants a heavier line to load better. My favorite floating link is the SA Sharkwave, which is a half wt heavier.

The absolute best line I've thrown so far on my TFO 8wt has to be the Orvis Depth Charge 250gr. That has a very heavy front section, and really loads that rod well.

My suggestion for you is to try a shooting head, or bank shot type line, that should load that rod more quickly.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

DeepSouthFly, the article that MosquitolaGoon gave, up above, is a very good start in understanding the parts of a flyline and how it effects the casting and conditions you are using it in. Re-read that carefully and slowly to fully absorb it. Then you need to go to the main mfg's websites and look at the specs and tapers of the lines, in the warm water saltwater fly lines section, to determine what best suits you. The problems will be understanding the behaviors of those lines vs the rods you are using them on. Knowing the actions of a rod will help determine what lines to use, relative to what your fishing needs are. It's almost like reading the labels of the food you are buying, if you want the best food for you and you want to eat healthy.

The Redington Crosswater is an entry level rod and leans more towards a medium action rod. So it loads easy and doesn't need to be over lined (1 line size heavier) to be able to feel the rod loading. However, the Rio Redfish is a heavier line and therefore will cause that rod to feel like it's overlined. So that's ok for short close casting but not good for reaching out there further like 40-60ft. The TFO Pro II is a little faster rod (more like a Med-Fast) and will help throw the line further. But if you are used to the Crosswater setup (you still have it?), it will behave differently, even if you use the same Rio Redfish.

The real question is... what do you want and need for the type of fishing you are doing and in the conditions you are fishing. Again, where do you live? I ask that because that will help determine what you need for that area.

Tarpon? Where and for what size fish? They come in all sizes, from micros to grown! 

Ted


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## Alex M. (Jan 23, 2017)

I really like cortland liquid crystal. It shoots really well, with a pretty aggressive taper so it's fast. It's been pretty tough/durable line too. I also like SA redfish.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Alex M. said:


> I really like cortland liquid crystal. It shoots really well, with a pretty aggressive taper so it's fast. It's been pretty tough/durable line too. I also like SA redfish.


Great lines. I use them too. 

Welcome to the Fly board of microskiff.com. What side of the Bay are you on? I'm on the south side.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

One word of caution. Every line, rod, and caster combination is different. The manufacturers list their tapers to give you an idea of how a line will behave on a certain rod type but its still just a starting place. One well known fly shop does a set of tests every so often to compare and rate a bunch of different rods. And they do a pretty decent job with one big caveat. They use the same fly line on each of the rods to keep the test parameters equivalent. But the problem is that skews the test results to those rods that happen to work best with the fly line they use. Pick a different fly line and the results may be different.

The bottom line is that there is only one way to know how a line is going to cast for an angler and that is to try that line on their rod. Unfortunately unless you know a bunch of fly rodders with a bunch of different lines its pretty hard to do. But if you have access to a number of fly guys then try their lines and see how they work for you. If not......

... here's an approach.
1. Get online and ask advice and opinions.
2. Based upon that input find a like new line online that somebody is selling and buy it.
3. Try that line and if it works great. If not then put it right back for sale and try another.
4. Repeat this process until you find a line that works well for you.

Its not really that expensive to go this route. As long as you keep a line you try in great shape you'll be able to sell it (or trade it) for about what you paid for it. The only downside to this tact is that it takes some time. But its a lot cheaper than forking out $80+ for a bunch of new fly lines.

Oh and one other option. If you are close to a fly shop many of them have a bunch of lines spooled up that you can try. Just take your rod down there and test cast a bunch. My local fly shop in Idaho has dozens of lines in the popular line sizes for that area on hand just for such a purpose. But if you do this PLEASE then buy the line you like from them and don't go back home and find it for a few bucks cheaper online.


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## Alex M. (Jan 23, 2017)

Backwater said:


> Great lines. I use them too.
> 
> Welcome to the Fly board of microskiff.com. What side of the Bay are you on? I'm on the south side.


Thanks! mostly old tampa bay but i like to fish all over and explore.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> One word of caution. Every line, rod, and caster combination is different. The manufacturers list their tapers to give you an idea of how a line will behave on a certain rod type but its still just a starting place. One well known fly shop does a set of tests every so often to compare and rate a bunch of different rods. And they do a pretty decent job with one big caveat. They use the same fly line on each of the rods to keep the test parameters equivalent. But the problem is that skews the test results to those rods that happen to work best with the fly line they use. Pick a different fly line and the results may be different.
> 
> The bottom line is that there is only one way to know how a line is going to cast for an angler and that is to try that line on their rod. Unfortunately unless you know a bunch of fly rodders with a bunch of different lines its pretty hard to do. But if you have access to a number of fly guys then try their lines and see how they work for you. If not......
> 
> ...


THIS!!!

Great advise Steve!

Sad....but the dirty truth of it all!


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

@Backwater I'm in the panhandle of FL. Most of the time it will be long shots at spooky fish. Don't really push into creeks that much so no close quarter shots. I appreciate all the awesome advice fellas. Unfortunately I'm from south AL so not many fly shops around me. @ifsteve I have joined a FB group of some fly fishing guys out of panama city. Planning on meeting up next time they have a meet and maybe trying out some of their sticks. As far as the tarpon goes I will be targeting big migrating fish off the beach since we don't really have areas that hold micros. Advice on that would help too.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Tarpon off the beach - three tips.
1. Practice casting.
2. Practice casting.
3. Prepare for rejections ....lots of them.

Mostly serious too. Tarpon are not about getting lots of eats. Yea those magical days occur but way more zero days. Tarpon are about the hunt and when it comes together there is nothing better in the flyfishing world!


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

Yeah that's what I hear.


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## Tanner Nations (Feb 20, 2017)

Check out the Orvis Hydros Redfish line. I love the way it casts with my recon 8 wt!


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## Tip'n'Tail (Jan 2, 2017)

This article has a wealth of knowledge. Although its based on Australian fish species and conditions it will help with comparing manufacturers, tapers, core, density etc 
https://flylife.com.au/featured-articles/lines-in-the-sand


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Excellent article. Thanks Tip n Tail for posting.


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

I'll check it out.


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

sjrobin said:


> I am not familiar with the Crosswater rod you are using but if the lines cast the same the rod is not compatible with either heavy short head line type or it could be your casting technique. I have a 90's model Sage Graphite III that does not cast well with the more advanced forward taper fast rod fly lines. I have not really tried to match any of the new lines to the old rod


The new lines are different. Heavier and designed for todays fast rods.


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

This thread and your other about stiff fast action rods kinda go hand in hand I think. Ultimately the goal in any situation is to put a bend in the rod to store energy, or "load" the rod, then perform the stop to unload the stored energy in the rod, transferring the energy into and down the line, thereby executing the backcast and finally coming forward carrying the fly to the fish. that's a bit of oversimplification but the key point in my thinking is the load and unload actions. 

Every rod out there is made to do the same thing, and they all do it a little different. let's take lines out of the equation for a moment, except to say that they provide mass with which to initiate the bending of the rod, or storage of energy. lets say were comparing two rods. One rod is going to store energy by bending deeply into the blank and the other will store energy by bending into the tip or midsection. when the first rod unloads it will do so via the straightening of a longer portion of the blank compared to the second rod. We're talking small increments here, but that unloading of the longer portion of the rod will take longer or be slower than the unloading of the rod that only bent to the midsection. the caster will need to perform the cast in a way that enhances the action of the rod. The rod that flexes deeply will not require as much force to load as the rod that flexes only in the tip or midsection. so you can see a lot depends on the input of the caster and the rod type. 

Lines, like rods, are all different. let's say we have one line that has a short heavy head and another that has a long head that isnt as heavy in the first 30'. Both are designated with the same #, say 8 weight. The short head is compacting all of the mass in the first 30', whereas the longer head is distributing that mass across a longer length. Compared on the same rod these lines will perform differently. Lets say we're casting 30-40'. The short compact head is going to be loading the rod with the maximum amount of mass. The longer head is going to be loading the rod with less mass. The result is going to be a different feel, and a caster might like the short heavy head a lot, but not care do the longer head. now push out to a 60 foot cast and we'll see that things change. Now with the short heavy head there's all the mass from the earlier example plus the mass of 20-30' of additional line and the longer head line may have the same mass as the other line did at 30', only now we're at 60'. Now the caster might like the long head line and not care for the short one. Again there are things that make up for the difference but this is long enough already. 

So the trick is to match the rod action and line characteristics in a way that extracts the performance we're after. That's going to be dictated by the type of fishing situations we put ourselves in. basically though, a softer slower rod is easier to load and therefore won't require the mass of the short compact head to make short casts, and can be overpowered by such a line rather easily. Conversely, a faster stiffer rod wont load as easily in close with the longer head and will benefit from the added mass of the compact short head and won't be overpowered as easily. there's a lot more to it but I think that's a good start.


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

Man. That was great. hahaha


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Lots of talk about matching line weights to rods, but I don't think anyone mentioned matching line tapers to flies.

If you are throwing at spooky, laid up reds in skinny water then you will probably want something that can delicately deliver a smaller fly. If you are throwing at cruisers in deeper water then you are likely throwing a weighted fly and you need to turn it over more than you need to be delicate.

That's where the bonefish vs redfish vs general tapers factor in IMHO. (And also your leader construction can be huge.)

I carry two 8wts on the skiff now...one with a bonefish taper for my smaller flies that are sight cast and one general tropical taper for the gurglers that I blind cast in low light conditions or into those snooky pockets and points.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Good explanations guys. Going even further for our extreme conditions lately in Texas, I carry 5/6wts to 10 wts depending on the wind and fly weight/size(wind resistance)


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

Good points. Perfect examples of letting the fishing situation guide the gear choices.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

tailwalk said:


> This thread and your other about stiff fast action rods kinda go hand in hand I think. Ultimately the goal in any situation is to put a bend in the rod to store energy, or "load" the rod, then perform the stop to unload the stored energy in the rod, transferring the energy into and down the line, thereby executing the backcast and finally coming forward carrying the fly to the fish. that's a bit of oversimplification but the key point in my thinking is the load and unload actions.
> 
> Every rod out there is made to do the same thing, and they all do it a little different. let's take lines out of the equation for a moment, except to say that they provide mass with which to initiate the bending of the rod, or storage of energy. lets say were comparing two rods. One rod is going to store energy by bending deeply into the blank and the other will store energy by bending into the tip or midsection. when the first rod unloads it will do so via the straightening of a longer portion of the blank compared to the second rod. We're talking small increments here, but that unloading of the longer portion of the rod will take longer or be slower than the unloading of the rod that only bent to the midsection. the caster will need to perform the cast in a way that enhances the action of the rod. The rod that flexes deeply will not require as much force to load as the rod that flexes only in the tip or midsection. so you can see a lot depends on the input of the caster and the rod type.
> 
> ...


Guys, I promise I didn't write this!!! LOL 

Really great explanation on rod speed vs fly line heads! Felt like some long screen scroller I would write! LOL  Hey want out, coconutgroves might be lurking around to make a comment about it!


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

Fire away!  There's certainly more at work than I wrote.

Thanks for the compliments.


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

thanks for the help fellas. awesome feed back. just what i needed to hear to learn. i did learn a little this weekend. windy conditions, my TFO with the SA mastery grand slam was a little too floppy with the wind so i had some first had experience. also, gurglers in wind, not a good idea


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