# rio hard mono for leaders



## MSG (Jan 11, 2010)

I just looked it up - the rio is .027" diameter - basically about what 50lb is. I know that Bruce Chard uses this stuff and likes it quite a bi tfor his bonefish leaders and worries about stepping down every 2 feet to a size that is .003" less diameter. It would seem that you could start with the 30lb and doe the step down accordingly even for tarpon leaders, as there is no need for stronger than 30lb, and the diameter is more like 50? Any one with any real world experience with this stuff?


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

What line weight are you making leaders for?


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## MSG (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm interested in 9 wt and 11 wt lines. Looking at the 30lb rio again - as I mentioned, it is the same diameter as 50lb mono.


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

It's great for class tippets but not sure it would turn over well as a butt section. try this, tie it to the end of the fly line and bend the connection by holding a few inches on either side. What does the bend look like? Ideally there should be the same or very similar stiffness between the end of the fly line and the butt section of the leader. The 30 pound might work on an 11 or 12, but it might be too stiff even on those.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

tailwalk said:


> It's great for class tippets but not sure it would turn over well as a butt section. try this, tie it to the end of the fly line and bend the connection by holding a few inches on either side. What does the bend look like? Ideally there should be the same or very similar stiffness between the end of the fly line and the butt section of the leader. The 30 pound might work on an 11 or 12, but it might be too stiff even on those.


Good point. Too stiff of the 1st stage piece of butt leader and it will hinge over instead of smoothly rolling over. Too soft and it will have a tenancy to collapse on itself. That is why diameters vs stiffness is so important to get it right in order for it to transfer the energy and unroll out correctly, depending on what size and weight flies you are throwing.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

MSG... here's what I use for the permanent butt sections on my fly lines....
9wt... 40lb
10wt. 50lb
11wt. 60lb (also the same for 12wt lines...)

Butt section lengths 9wt, 4 1/2 feet, 10wt, 5 feet, 11wt (and larger) 6 feet....

For butt sections I only use Ande premium or Sufix Superior mono... Yes, I do like stiff mono for tippets -particularly when they're going to have a heavier bite tippet (also called shock tippet) at the bitter end.... I only use Mason (because that's what I know...). I'll be interested to hear your experience with the Rio... (by the way when we're not using bite tippets I simply use straight 20lb fluorocarbon - and we do very well with it... even with popping bugs or other surface flies..).


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

MSG said:


> I'm interested in 9 wt and 11 wt lines. Looking at the 30lb rio again - as I mentioned, it is the same diameter as 50lb mono.


What flyline are your throwing, exactly, with each rod?


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## MSG (Jan 11, 2010)

throwing the royal wulff on both setups. I have strung up 30-25-20-16- then a 30 fluro tippet - each section 2 feet long for my 9 wt - this seemed to work really well. Each of the lines reduces by 3/100 of an inch - still you get to the tippet - which appears to be very similar in diameter to the 16lb rio. For the 11 wt I am not sure - as I said, the 30 rio is about the same diameter as regular 50 mono.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

All floating lines?


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## MSG (Jan 11, 2010)

yep


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Ok then, So I take it you have Rio Hard Mono in 30, 25, 20, and 16lb, right?

What flies are you throwing for both rods and for what? 

The *devil* is in the details!!!


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## MSG (Jan 11, 2010)

correct - then 30lb bite tippet. Am most concerned with a leader easy to turn over , in windy conditions - throwing a wide variety of flies - mostly using this for snook and small tarpon.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

MSG said:


> correct - then 30lb bite tippet. Am most concerned with a leader easy to turn over , in windy conditions - throwing a wide variety of flies - mostly using this for snook and small tarpon.


For the 9wt, try 4ft of the 30lb hard mono, then 2ft of 20lb HM and about 18" of 16lb. This will be your butt section of your leader. You can do a loop to loop connection if you want to, connecting your butt section to your tippet, for quick change outs. Otherwise, just tie in your tippet. Then go 24-30" of 15-16lb FC for your tippet and about 12-18" of 30lb FC for your bite leader. This setup wouldn't crash on the water and spook your fish, giving you a decent presentation while still turning over heavier or bigger flies in the wind. The 30lb is really big and tough to work with. So when you make your blood knots, go 1 wrap less on the larger dia side, then the smaller dia side. So from 30 to 20lb, go 3 wraps on the 30 and 4 wraps on the 20. Next go 4 wraps on the 20 and 5 wraps on the 16. If you are then blood knoting the tippet to it, then do 5 wraps on the 16lb HM and 6 wraps on the 15-16lb FC tippet. Spit on all knots before you cinch them down good. Clip tags flush.

I have to tell you that I would go all FC on your 11wt, unless you are throwing surface flies, which most big tarpon flies aren't. If you want that formula, then I can give that to ya.

Ted Haas


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## MSG (Jan 11, 2010)

thank you, Ted. Yes - I have already discovered 3 turns is best on the 30lb fir the blood knot. Do you think I can use the 30 lb hard mono for the butt of the 11 wt? I was thinking of 4 feet of 30 hard, then 3 feet of 20 hard then a bite tippet of 3 feet?Aas I said earlier, the 30lb hard is about the same diameter as 50 lb mono. Then again - I understand about maybe going all floor so it sinks a bit.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

All fluorocarbon leader sinks faster so you can use lighter weight flies that look more natural. Especially with intermediate lines.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Like Steve Robin said, for your 11wt, you really want to have all FC in your leader system. It's stealtheir and in the deeper poon waters, you need the fly to get down to eye level a little bit more. The FC will help to do that.

60/40/30 of the FC in the same lengths recipe I gave above. Then if you are not setting records, I recommend 24-30" total of 20lb FC for your tippet. Then 60lb FC for your bite leader (12-18"). Below is more details for knots and such.

I guess if you are fishing shallow and more near surface flies, you can go 30HM, 25HM and 30FC (same recipe as I have above with the 9wt). That can be your butt section with a loop at each end (dbl figure 8 Steve Huff Loop on the fly line end and a Non Slip loop of lefty Krey loop at the tippet end). Then your tippet can be 20lb FC. Start off doing a magnum 30-40 turn bimini with a dbl loop at the end, still on the spool. Then cut off 3ft of the 20lb FC with the attached Bimini. Then on your leader end (40-60lb FC, depending on what you are chasing), do an Alberto knot to that. Pre-straighten the Bite leader. You want to end up with a min of 24" of tippet, up to 30." 

You can just pick up the Tsunami Pro 25yrds of 20 & 30lb large arbor spools from Walmart. I really like that FC.



Ted Haas


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## sidelock (Jan 31, 2011)

Ted, would it be OK to make the entire tarpon fluoro leader including butt, mid/class section and bite tippet for a 12 weight using Tsunami Pro 60/40/30 for butt, 20 or 16 for class/bimini and 80 for bite to fish Homosassa ? It seems to be reasonably priced compared to some other popular high price brands.


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## redfish504 (Feb 5, 2017)

The RIO hard mono is larger in diameter than most other 30lb. I've been using it for years, with Bruce's leader formula and in a more traditional formula like 50/30/20, both with fluorocarbon at the fly end. It works great in both style leaders. Bruce's has more pieces and more knots, which is a consideration if there's a lot of grass or other things to snag, but has a more gradual taper. 

For leader formulas, the diameter matters more than the pound test. I use 30 for the butt section for 9-12 weight, and 25lb for 7 weight and sometimes for 8 weight. Then use the same type of mono in lighter weights for the rest of the leader, except the tippet is fluorocarbon. There are situations where I like all fluorocarbon for the leader, but when I use mono leader with fluorocarbon tippet, the hard mono has worked well for me.


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## MSG (Jan 11, 2010)

Correct - the rio hard mono is a larger diameter - 30 hard mono is similar to 50 or 60 mono. I have switched oven my 11 wt for poons to all fluro - thank you Ted. I am using the 30 hard mono on the 9 and 10 wt as a butt, and will most likely use the 25 hard mono as a butt on my new to me 8 wt (crosscurrent pro1 - 8wt - just picked up today).


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

I use mono on the butt and class, then flouro on the tippet. I lIke the stretch of mono on big fish.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Backwater said:


> For the 9wt, try 4ft of the 30lb hard mono, then 2ft of 20lb HM and about 18" of 16lb. This will be your butt section of your leader. You can do a loop to loop connection if you want to, connecting your butt section to your tippet, for quick change outs. Otherwise, just tie in your tippet. Then go 24-30" of 15-16lb FC for your tippet and about 12-18" of 30lb FC for your bite leader. This setup wouldn't crash on the water and spook your fish, giving you a decent presentation while still turning over heavier or bigger flies in the wind. The 30lb is really big and tough to work with. So when you make your blood knots, go 1 wrap less on the larger dia side, then the smaller dia side. So from 30 to 20lb, go 3 wraps on the 30 and 4 wraps on the 20. Next go 4 wraps on the 20 and 5 wraps on the 16. If you are then blood knoting the tippet to it, then do 5 wraps on the 16lb HM and 6 wraps on the 15-16lb FC tippet. Spit on all knots before you cinch them down good. Clip tags flush.
> 
> I have to tell you that I would go all FC on your 11wt, unless you are throwing surface flies, which most big tarpon flies aren't. If you want that formula, then I can give that to ya.
> 
> Ted Haas


I looked online at Walmart and they don't list Tsunami mono. The only place I found it was Tackle Direct in 25 yd spools


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

permitchaser said:


> I looked online at Walmart and they don't list Tsunami mono. The only place I found it was Tackle Direct in 25 yd spools


Tsunami Fluorocarbon... Should be able to walk in the store and find it in the fishing dept in the 20lb & 30lb test. Ebay has it in the bigger lb test. Otherwise, just get the Yozuri in the clear fluorocarbon and you can order that where ever it's sold.


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## Rawb (Jan 25, 2019)

Backwater said:


> For the 9wt, try 4ft of the 30lb hard mono, then 2ft of 20lb HM and about 18" of 16lb. This will be your butt section of your leader. You can do a loop to loop connection if you want to, connecting your butt section to your tippet, for quick change outs. Otherwise, just tie in your tippet. Then go 24-30" of 15-16lb FC for your tippet and about 12-18" of 30lb FC for your bite leader. This setup wouldn't crash on the water and spook your fish, giving you a decent presentation while still turning over heavier or bigger flies in the wind. The 30lb is really big and tough to work with. So when you make your blood knots, go 1 wrap less on the larger dia side, then the smaller dia side. So from 30 to 20lb, go 3 wraps on the 30 and 4 wraps on the 20. Next go 4 wraps on the 20 and 5 wraps on the 16. If you are then blood knoting the tippet to it, then do 5 wraps on the 16lb HM and 6 wraps on the 15-16lb FC tippet. Spit on all knots before you cinch them down good. Clip tags flush.
> 
> I have to tell you that I would go all FC on your 11wt, unless you are throwing surface flies, which most big tarpon flies aren't. If you want that formula, then I can give that to ya.
> 
> Ted Haas



Would this leader recipe work well for an 8wt line as well? Or should I do 25-20-16 of HM for the butt? And 20-15 fluoro tippet. I don’t use bite leader but maybe I should? I’m new to fly fishing and fish mainly for mangrove snook, small tarpon, trout, and redfish. Does the hard mono still work well with making short quick casts under mangroves?


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## Gadaboutgaddis (Jan 19, 2019)

And further questions Mr Ted... how about butt sections for 7wt and 6 wt using rio hard mono to a loop for a FC tippet? What would you suggest as step downs.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Rawb said:


> Would this leader recipe work well for an 8wt line as well? Or should I do 25-20-16 of HM for the butt? And 20-15 fluoro tippet. I don’t use bite leader but maybe I should? I’m new to fly fishing and fish mainly for mangrove snook, small tarpon, trout, and redfish. Does the hard mono still work well with making short quick casts under mangroves?


Wow, old thread there. Do or did you actually buy the Rio Hard Mono or Mason (basically the same thing)? If not, then you have other options. Yes, you can step down your leader size. At this point, it's really not about the lb test (pound test), but more about material diameter size of the line, in the same type of line, where everything flows evenly and smoothly down the line, and there throughout the loop it makes.

So to answer your initial question... Yes, step it down. 25-20-16 hard mono or mason then 24-30" of 15lb fluorocarbon tippet and YES, 12-18" of either 20, 25 or 30lb fluorocarbon leader, depending on snook, tarpon, jacks and other pelegics, I use 25-30lb and with only trout and redfish, 20lb (and sometimes just the tippet. FYI, I'm typically using between 10-15lb tippet, depending on what I'm doing, then adding a 12"+/- or bite leader (again, depending on what it's being used for).

Remember, being new, don't confuse Rio Hard Mono or any other Mason or Hard Mason as regular monofilament or mono. Because they are not the same. Hard Mono or Mason is actually a nylon and is harder and thereby stiffer than mono with a thicker diameter than mono. Where regular mono is different is softer and thinner in diameter. Both can be used as leader materials. 

For the same leader in regular mono, you can use the same lenghts in 40/30/20 (for your butt section) and then a 12-15lb tippet.

Where the difference with butt section use in Hard Mono or Mason (let's just call it "hard mono" for now) vs regular monofilament ("mono" for short) is the hard mono being stiff, will help turn over larger and/or heavier flies at the end of your final roll-out of the loop, at the end of your cast, thereby putting that bigger fly out as far as possible (that is considering you made the cast properly). The things you will notice will be the entire leader opening up wider since it's stiffer, which will also help to turn over those slightly larger flies than normal. But to effectively do this, the last needs to be slightly more opened, where your loops are purposely made slightly larger and will end up matching the loop in your leader. IF you throw a tight loop, the leader will still want to open up larger and will end up hinging at the leader to fly line connection and will therefore slap the fly down on the water. Ok with some fish in certain conditions, but not ok for other spooky fish. Also, the larger opened up loop in the leader will have some negative effect in the wind and will cause the fly to get blown in the directing of the wind and not necessarily at the target. So throwing bulky, heavier redfish flies (like a thick redfish crack fly, size 1-1/0 hook with small to medium size lead dumbell eyes, on a redfish fly line on a med/fast to fast action 8wt fly rod) up close and personal in protected waters would be ideal for a hard mono or mason leader. 

The mono leader (and for now, we are only discussing the butt section of the leader here), being softer and thinner in diameter than hard mono or mason, will turn over tighter with flies appropriately sized, for that weight fly line and mono leader. In other words, say you are throwing small bead chain type eyed #4 bonefish gotchas on a wide open windy flat, in ultra skinny water at some bones, where you are aerializing 40ft of flyline before you shoot it out there 70ft to those pak of bones, with razor tight loops and you want that leader to follow suit? Then that would be an ideal situation for a mono butt section of a leader. Other situations are throwing under docks where your leader loop needs to be tight, or throwing into nooks and crannies of mangrove roots and branches and both situations you are using smaller type flies.

All this being said, all these materials (hard mono, mason, hard mason, mono) float, almost as good as a floating fly line. The typical situation I use Hard Mono, Mason or regular mono, is for either fishing surface flies, or sub-surface flies that you want to ride high in the upper water coloum where you are fishing, like skinny flats, shallow waters, or for some pelagics where the fish want it up top. Another use is for that typical up and down jigging action with a weighted fly that you want it top pop up and then let it go back down, say like working a jig on a spinning rod and hopping the jig up off the bottom and moving it along like that.

IF, none of those situations are not the case or the intended use, try considering using an all fluorocarbon leader. Typically fluorocarbon leader material runs about the same diameter as regular mono. So with a recipe of a good monofiliment leader, you can build the same thing with fluorocarbon (FC) leader materials and achieve the same benefits that FC has over mono.

We've had a lot of discussions on this subject and you can find some of these details in the Tarpon Leader thread, on top of this forum, or do a search on the subject, up top of this forum page under "Search." There you will see mine and many other responses to those questions and also their recipes for building leaders.

One final thing. I don't recommend using hard mono or mason for tippet or bite leader material. Why? Well.... they suck for that in saltwater for saltwater species. (there are too many reasons why I need to explain why I don't like it for those 2 uses. I only use FC for both, period! 

Ted Haas


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Gadaboutgaddis said:


> And further questions Mr Ted... how about butt sections for 7wt and 6 wt using rio hard mono to a loop for a FC tippet? What would you suggest as step downs.


Hey there sir! How have you been? 

I'd use 20/16/12 for the butt section of your leader on those 5-7wts using Rio Hard Mono, then, yes, the loop or direct tie. Then 10-15lb tippet, then whatever size bite FC bite leader (shock) you want, if any. 

Ted


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## Rawb (Jan 25, 2019)

Wow! Tons of knowledge! Thank u!!!
So seems like I should stick to using normal mono as leader due to the fact that I make a lot of casts under mangroves and docks using small unweighted baitfish flies, because it will allow me to keep my tighter loops. And use the hard mono leader for when I’m fishing open flats for redfish and trout using weighted flies with some wind. My leader system I have now and have been using forever now has been 3ft 40# mono, 3ft 30# mono, blood knotted together with perfection loop conmecting to 2-3ft 20# fluoro or mono depending if I’m throwing top water or not. It works ok, but now that I’m a far better caster than when I started, I feel it’s time to finally get more serious with my leaders to get the most out of my casts and presentations. Thanks for the info. Yes it’s an old thread but everyone’s input was very helpful.


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