# Tarpon etiquette



## Naturecoastfly

So I understand and respect the fact that guides make their living on the water. I also understand there are some crappy people in this world that will follow/scout guides for the cheating way of learning new spots. 

However as a traveling angler and someone trying to be respectful of locals I pose a question. How does one approach a new area (going in blind) and avoid confrontation by unknowingly stumbling across someone’s “spot”?

A friend told me a story today about his buddy who tarpon fished north west FL and got into an altercation at daylight because he unknowingly beat a “guide” to “his spot”. The guy innocently found the place on google earth and felt like it would be a good starting point.


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## Smackdaddy53

There is no such thing as a fishing spot that belongs to someone I don’t care who, when, where or what species. If you know each other or even if you don’t and fish the same areas whoever is there first gets to fish it. Tough titty for the guide. 
Cutting someone off intentionally is different. Overhearing someone telling their honey hole they are fishing the next morning is their fault for talking too much or too loud. This goes for any type of fishing, that is why some tournament boats are faster than others.


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## Rich11111

Some days I leave extra early to fish an area but if someone is there when i arrive I respect him being there and I go on to plan B.


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## Naturecoastfly

While I 100% agree with you, that doesn’t mean you won’t come face to face with a lunatic in the dark.


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## Smackdaddy53

Naturecoastfly said:


> While I 100% agree with you, that doesn’t mean you won’t come face to face with a lunatic in the dark.


So be it. Be packing!


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## The Fin

Naturecoastfly said:


> So I understand and respect the fact that guides make their living on the water. I also understand there are some crappy people in this world that will follow/scout guides for the cheating way of learning new spots.
> 
> However as a traveling angler and someone trying to be respectful of locals I pose a question. How does one approach a new area (going in blind) and avoid confrontation by unknowingly stumbling across someone’s “spot”?
> 
> A friend told me a story today about his buddy who tarpon fished north west FL and got into an altercation at daylight because he unknowingly beat a “guide” to “his spot”. The guy innocently found the place on google earth and felt like it would be a good starting point.


The guide had No reason to be a dick about it! I’ve worked well with other guides, private fishers, etc. Communicating with the guide or the other angler could have worked out quite well for everyone involved. There’s always that chance that someone “discovers” a spot before another angler (or guide). I also believe “packing” isn’t a great response! Remember, it’s only fishing!


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## Gatorbig

Sounds like a familiar story in that area for tarpon.


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## DuckNut

We have a lot of azzhats for guides around here. They will buzz 20 yards off as you are anchored up. You learn pretty quick who are the corksuckers.and do not give a crap. If I have plan A in mind and there is one of these azzhats near by I stick with plan A.

Otherwise, I steer clear and give them the respect I would appreciate.


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## The Fin

DuckNut said:


> We have a lot of azzhats for guides around here. They will buzz 20 yards off as you are anchored up. You learn pretty quick who are the corksuckers.and do not give a crap. If I have plan A in mind and there is one of these azzhats near by I stick with plan A.
> 
> Otherwise, I steer clear and give them the respect I would appreciate.


You’d be surprised how many clients that are with the “azzhat”guides during these episodes, realize how wrong that the guide was which negatively affects potential rebookings!


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## Jason M

If you are new to an area and you see boats polling, work in behind them and given then 500 yards if you can. If you try to jump in line or in front things could get spicy. As for getting to a spot early, man that's BS as long as your not fishing a spot they told you about or took you to then it's hard to debate that's it's public water.


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## TheFrequentFlier

The worst etiquette I see when tarpon fishing is not with naive (mostly) jet skiers, but rather with local tower boat captains. They don’t give you any distance, don’t respect that an anchor is down and you’re about to ambush and incoming line of fish, will motor across flats you’ve been staked out on for hours or big motor follow pods of fish for miles…it’s pathetic…
and the worst: they’ll motor down the beaches seeing if you’re casting at anything, if you are, get ready to welcome your new guest soon. 

obviously there are some good tower boat capts too, but they seem rare these days.


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## DuckNut

The Fin said:


> You’d be surprised how many clients that are with the “azzhat”guides during these episodes, realize how wrong that the guide was which negatively affects potential rebookings!


And I am happy to provide that proverbial push off the fence.


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## finbully

Pictures of them/their boat and post on here. It's a crappy guide if they have just one "spot"!


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## kjnengr

The Fin said:


> You’d be surprised how many clients that are with the “azzhat”guides during these episodes, realize how wrong that the guide was which negatively affects potential rebookings!


I have a friend that won't even book a trip in a certain area after a bad experience with one of those "azzhat" guides.


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## RennieRae

This is an interesting listen for guide "etiquette" in the area you are referring to. 

David Mangum — Mill House


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## lemaymiami

Bad actors can be found... anywhere.... but any guide who claims a particularly spot as "his" (don't think I've ever heard of a woman doing this sort of BS...) is just being a bully - and needs to be treated as such..... Places where there are more guides than "fishing spots" are where you'll usually find them. Fortunately most guides don't behave that way in my experience. Make no mistake though - most tarpon "spots" will only support one boat so if the idiot tries to set up on top of you - he's ruined both of your chances... That said, it's first come as far as any spot goes - and if someone is on that particular spot you've been dreaming about... simply stay away until they leave or come back another day. Something I learned many years ago is that other folks will only know a particular spot is of interest if they see you get all fired up about it... Nuff said about that... 

Jason M has it right - stay well behind someone on the pole who's tarpon fishing (pretty obvious since they'll be out in the open, someone on the poling platform, with an angler in the bow.... but that's not the only thing to remember for beginners... Here's what I was taught - all those years ago for down in the Keys and similar areas... 

First off how you hunt them is based on how they behave - migrating tarpon during the spawning season don't like to cross shallow areas - instead they'll try to go around them if possible. Folks who really know an area will set up on a point of a flat - or at the end of a blind channel - somewhere that moving fish will be following the bottom contour... So your first thing to learn oceanside of the Keys is never to run in four to eight feet of water if at all possible - stay out in a bit deeper water and you won't be spooking any tarpon. Next if there's a spot or a channel edge you want to set up on you simply can't run right up to it at all... Shut down as much as 500 yards out and ease into position with an electric motor or a pushpole (the way I did for so many years...) and if there's someone already working that spot or area, stay at least 200 yards away (300 is better but down in the Keys... not often possible..) and keep behind them - the first boat is the #1 position - and if he's staked out - so are you, period. If he's poling then you can too - but keep your distance - as the #2 boat you'll only become the #1 boat when the first guy has hooked up and is fighting a fish, etc (and yes some spots will accommodate a #3 spot.... (famous Buchanan Bank is one of them....). Done properly the #1 position gets the first shot at passing fish - the #2 only sees them after the #1 has already had their opportunity, etc. None of this works if there's no actual "spot" but you just have fish moving across really big flats - or following a shoreline going somewhere. The guiding principle, though, is that there ought to be a special corner in a really dark place for anyone that deliberately screws up another fellow's fishing... 

All of this is just the beginning of learning to tarpon fish when you're sight-fishing them. Booking a guide in a new area to learn a bit first, is a great idea - and with the right guide you'll learn more in a day - than you will in a year on your own. Yes, it's very possible for a first timer trying to figure out a new area to spook a bunch of fish -or actually guarantee that they won't keep moving to where someone else is waiting on them - so the whole "etiquette" thing does take some learning.... and it is important.


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## Mark H

The Fin said:


> I also believe “packing” isn’t a great response!


Of course you do. Yeah, packing is completely unnecessary...till you get attacked. Little legal lesson, you carry ALL the time and have to defend yourself or others, you are in a MUCH better position legally than if you carry occasionally and have to defend yourself or others. Carry all the time and avoid pulling it out unless you have absolutely no choice. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. God forbid I have to know I could have saved an innocent life if I had just put it in my pocket that morning. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Longer on the water.

I've never needed my seat belt either...but I put it on every time that truck moves.


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## kjnengr

My thoughts....

No one owns the water, except in Louisiana maybe - but that's another topic.

I feel sorry for the guide (or weekend warrior) who puts in the time to figure out a spot and why/when the fish are there but then gets potlicked just because someone else saw them fishing there. I understand and I would bitch about it as well.

However, no one owns any spot and no one is more entitled to fish it than any other person - guide or not.


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## Megalops

Guys, in order to better appreciate your stomping grounds, please come to Tampa and fish for a week of weekends.


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## bob_esper

I've never tarpon fished. . . . but i've done plenty of other fishing. IMO as long as your not following someone around everywhere is fair game. If you happen to luck up on someones hot spot and get there first then kuddos to you.


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## K3anderson

Megalops said:


> Guys, in order to better appreciate your stomping grounds, please come to Tampa and fish for a week of weekends.


Might change your mind about jet skiers being worse than tower boats too. Jetskis are the absolute worst on the water bar none. If I ever see one again it would be too soon.


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## MRichardson

RennieRae said:


> This is an interesting listen for guide "etiquette" in the area you are referring to.
> 
> David Mangum — Mill House


I listened to him on that episode. While I understand his feelings, they are just his feelings. It's not his water. There's shit I don't like in my profession but I deal with it because it's not my world and it's not his either. Buzz me on the flat to drive me off? Two can play that game. I like to think I'm more mature, but then I remember how homicidal I feel when a grandma pulls out in front of me on the highway and drives 35 mph. I'm working on it.


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## The Fin

MRichardson said:


> I listened to him on that episode. While I understand his feelings, they are just his feelings. It's not his water. There's shit I don't like in my profession but I deal with it because it's not my world and it's not his either. Buzz me on the flat to drive me off? Two can play that game. I like to think I'm more mature, but then I remember how homicidal I feel when a grandma pulls out in front of me on the highway and drives 35 mph. I'm working on it.


Remember that granny might be packing and feel threatened if you road rage her! She might “stand her ground “!


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## Naturecoastfly

I understand pot lickers. I learned to fish the tides most folks in my area can’t access due to larger flats boats and bay boats. All is well until an airboat or a tower boat burns up the flat you just poled for the last hour or more make a big circle and throw the boat in neutral from wide open and start casting to a busted school. Some things you just can’t control but I do have the luxury of being able to fish some afternoons during the week and that’s just pure gold. 

Thankfully we don’t have the jet ski issue up here. So much floating grass they spend more time cleaning it out than running across a flat. 

Seems like for the most part we all agree. Just be courteous and use your head. If I see someone in one of “my spots” I just go to one of my other 500 spots


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## ElLobo

lemaymiami said:


> Bad actors can be found... anywhere.... but any guide who claims a particularly spot as "his" (don't think I've ever heard of a woman doing this sort of BS...) is just being a bully - and needs to be treated as such..... Places where there are more guides than "fishing spots" are where you'll usually find them. Fortunately most guides don't behave that way in my experience. Make no mistake though - most tarpon "spots" will only support one boat so if the idiot tries to set up on top of you - he's ruined both of your chances... That said, it's first come as far as any spot goes - and if someone is on that particular spot you've been dreaming about... simply stay away until they leave or come back another day. Something I learned many years ago is that other folks will only know a particular spot is of interest if they see you get all fired up about it... Nuff said about that...
> 
> Jason M has it right - stay well behind someone on the pole who's tarpon fishing (pretty obvious since they'll be out in the open, someone on the poling platform, with an angler in the bow.... but that's not the only thing to remember for beginners... Here's what I was taught - all those years ago for down in the Keys and similar areas...
> 
> First off how you hunt them is based on how they behave - migrating tarpon during the spawning season don't like to cross shallow areas - instead they'll try to go around them if possible. Folks who really know an area will set up on a point of a flat - or at the end of a blind channel - somewhere that moving fish will be following the bottom contour... So your first thing to learn oceanside of the Keys is never to run in four to eight feet of water if at all possible - stay out in a bit deeper water and you won't be spooking any tarpon. Next if there's a spot or a channel edge you want to set up on you simply can't run right up to it at all... Shut down as much as 500 yards out and ease into position with an electric motor or a pushpole (the way I did for so many years...) and if there's someone already working that spot or area, stay at least 200 yards away (300 is better but down in the Keys... not often possible..) and keep behind them - the first boat is the #1 position - and if he's staked out - so are you, period. If he's poling then you can too - but keep your distance - as the #2 boat you'll only become the #1 boat when the first guy has hooked up and is fighting a fish, etc (and yes some spots will accommodate a #3 spot.... (famous Buchanan Bank is one of them....). Done properly the #1 position gets the first shot at passing fish - the #2 only sees them after the #1 has already had their opportunity, etc. None of this works if there's no actual "spot" but you just have fish moving across really big flats - or following a shoreline going somewhere. The guiding principle, though, is that there ought to be a special corner in a really dark place for anyone that deliberately screws up another fellow's fishing...
> 
> All of this is just the beginning of learning to tarpon fish when you're sight-fishing them. Booking a guide in a new area to learn a bit first, is a great idea - and with the right guide you'll learn more in a day - than you will in a year on your own. Yes, it's very possible for a first timer trying to figure out a new area to spook a bunch of fish -or actually guarantee that they won't keep moving to where someone else is waiting on them - so the whole "etiquette" thing does take some learning.... and it is important.


How would you set up #1, #2, #3 positions if the fish are swimming both directions? North bound and south bound fish?


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## The Fin

Naturecoastfly said:


> So I understand and respect the fact that guides make their living on the water. I also understand there are some crappy people in this world that will follow/scout guides for the cheating way of learning new spots.
> 
> However as a traveling angler and someone trying to be respectful of locals I pose a question. How does one approach a new area (going in blind) and avoid confrontation by unknowingly stumbling across someone’s “spot”?
> 
> A friend told me a story today about his buddy who tarpon fished north west FL and got into an altercation at daylight because he unknowingly beat a “guide” to “his spot”. The guy innocently found the place on google earth and felt like it would be a good starting point.


Can’t be much of a “guide” if he/she has only one spot!


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## 7WT

I have two friends who are excellent Tarpon guides in the Boca Grande area. They live a block on either side of me. Needless to say they have shared and taught me a ton about the area. I will take them out on my skiff and pole them to learn. When I fish on my own or with a different friend I find out where they are going that day with their clients and typically if they have a client that day I will go to another area miles from where they will be. And I do not take any local people to any of their spots which are of course quite a few. Really just common sense and etiquette. Here is a different take. I went our very early one day in Maine for stripers. When I put in at the launch at 4 am a guide was putting his boat in as well. I went down river about a mile and found stripers working a shoreline and fished them on a float. Float down hook one or two carefully idle back around and do it again. The guide saw me there. He passed by and went and picked up his client and came back to where I was and moved in front of me and anchored his boat at the sweet spot which disrupted the ability to float. I was done. He could have and frankly three or four boats could have fished that spot floating by hooking up and circling around. I knew he knew this how could he not. I was p.off and so full throttled my boat and spun around and "waked" him. A few weeks later we met up early at the launch again and he sounded off at me. I told him he knew better and that he didn't own the spot especially since we both could have easily fished it etc. This was probably 10 years ago. I still seem on occasion and last time I offered a greeting- which he disgruntled a muffled response. In some ways I wish I had not done that, my quick temper overruled a better choice. In the end I think we were both wrong. Spots are not owned, they are fished by who is there first though within reason and a courtesy extended to those who showed you.


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## Zika

RennieRae said:


> This is an interesting listen for guide "etiquette" in the area you are referring to.
> 
> David Mangum — Mill House


Revisionist history. There were several of us guiding in Location X long before he showed up, coincidentally at the invitation of a fellow guide when we were hosting an informal tournament among clients. But now his claim to fame is "discovering" it and "owning" every spot that's ever had a tarpon swim by within 1/2 mile. 

Glad I was there in the heyday before the carpetbaggers showed up. It was special for awhile. My policy is to practice the Golden Rule on the water. Many others--guides included--don't have a clue of that concept, unfortunately.


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## KimmerIII

Zika said:


> Revisionist history. There were several of us guiding in Location X long before he showed up, coincidentally at the invitation of a fellow guide when we were hosting an informal tournament among clients. But now his claim to fame is "discovering" it and "owning" every spot that's ever had a tarpon swim by within 1/2 mile.
> 
> Glad I was there in the heyday before the carpetbaggers showed up. It was special for awhile. My policy is to practice the Golden Rule on the water. Many others--guides included--don't have a clue of that concept, unfortunately.


He did the same thing in the Biloxi Marsh for awhile....


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## Mako 181

Some Guides Think
I am fishing to make a living.

I think
I make a living to fish.

No one owns a “spot”. Just be respectful and move on if someone is in the”spot” you want to be in.


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## MRichardson

Fishermen are nuts about this kind of stuff. But duck hunters are worse. 
I'm both.


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## TidewateR

MRichardson said:


> I listened to him on that episode. While I understand his feelings, they are just his feelings. It's not his water. There's shit I don't like in my profession but I deal with it because it's not my world and it's not his either. Buzz me on the flat to drive me off? Two can play that game. I like to think I'm more mature, but then I remember how homicidal I feel when a grandma pulls out in front of me on the highway and drives 35 mph. I'm working on it.


It was entertaining to hear Nicky express his point of view to Mangum. Nicky basically asked.. well what if I fish a new area to me, using spots I find on google earth and end up on your spot by chance? I don't recall Mangums exact answer, but in my opinion, he didn't have an answer for that. Mangum harps on the scenario where an angler sees him fishing a spot, then goes there the next day. That's bad etiquette and kind of chicken shit in my opinion...but the guy who does his homework, has no idea who fishes where and gets to the spot before the guide, did nothing wrong. The guide believes no one else could possibly find this spot on their own without shedding all the sweat, blood tears etc etc???...that's chicken shit as well.

As for tower boats...they have absolutely RUINED some prime tarpon areas along the beach (yes some MS members here do it too in the particular area). Run along the beach on the 2nd bar until you find a school..follow the school while you pound on them for as long as you can....then move on the next school and repeat it. It harasses the fish, makes them swim deep, and doesn't mesh with the anchor and wait style. The fish are swimming down the beach! Why not just wait for them to come to you?? The result would be much happier fish and schools that could be fished by multiple boats spread out in a given stretch of beach.

Exhibit "A"


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## kjnengr

TidewateR said:


> It was entertaining to hear Nicky express his point of view to Mangum. Nicky basically asked.. well what if I fish a new area to me, using spots I find on google earth and end up on your spot by chance? I don't recall Mangums exact answer, but in my opinion, he didn't have an answer for that. Mangum harps on the scenario where an angler sees him fishing a spot, then goes there the next day. That's bad etiquette and kind of chicken shit in my opinion...but the guy who does his homework, has no idea who fishes where and gets to the spot before the guide, did nothing wrong. The guide believes no one else could possibly find this spot on their own without shedding all the sweat, blood tears etc etc???...that's chicken shit as well.


100% truth right there.



I like when Nicky throws those in there, especially when aimed at his dad.


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## kjnengr

KimmerIII said:


> He did the same thing in the Biloxi Marsh for awhile....



What should have been a 7-10 year change in pressure took 2 years with all the self promotion videos. 

Now he doesn't want to fish in Louisiana anymore. 

Gee thanks for coming here, lighting a fuse, and running away when the bomb goes off.


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## lemaymiami

A few additional thoughts... If you're lucky enough to have a really good spot or situation for the fish you love - don't ever tell a soul - and if you're a guide don't ever fish it , not even once with clients... If you do what you shouldn't do - it will be gone in short order, period... Special spots or situations rarely last long in my experience so enjoy them when and while you can... If you do have something really special, treat it that way (this from a guy who's worked more than one spot - until the fish simply left - and haven't ever returned..). These thoughts aren't just about tarpon by the way...

Lastly, a few years back I ran into a very famous guide who was one of my first fly customers (back when I was just beginning to tie flies for shops - long before I even thought about guiding) and he seemed glad to see me and asked what I was up to, etc. When I told him I'd taken up guiding - his demeanor changed like I'd slapped him... and simply said "So has everyone else"... and so it goes

This was from a guy who did as much as anyone to popularize our sport... Hope I never end up with that attitude at all...


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## Gatorbig

Millhouse was a good conversation, another question I liked/ wonder about is when Nicky and Andy asked when they as customers have earned the right to diy and show up to the spots they have paid to be taken to. And how some guides (at least 1 in keys) have a problem with them fishing spots.


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## Gatorbig

The tower boat deal, I see the problem you are describing. I believe that is the preferred rig and technique for cobia guides in the area but cobia are not as prevalent as in previous years. I wonder if these guys are adopting the old techniques to tarpon as their targeted species has dwindled as mentioned in another thread here.


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## jonny

RennieRae said:


> This is an interesting listen for guide "etiquette" in the area you are referring to.
> 
> David Mangum — Mill House


This is a example of someone who thinks they own the water. He acts like he didn’t look at maps or Google earth to study. All of us do that and you should. I have always studied everything I could. Looking for channel edges or flats with lots of feeder creeks nearby. He can shove those skull buoys up his ass. Glad I’m nowhere near him. A good guide will have several spots for any given tide or they are just being lazy. This why I fish where most people don’t. Unfortunately it’s not going to get better just worse.


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## Jason M

I wish that we could make it to 10' poll and troll zones here in Tampa Bay. The tower boats can't help themselves.


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## jonny

When I lived in Titusville the poll and trolls in the Lagoon really helped keeping the riff raff off the flats. Some were very big and you had to commit. I think we really need some down here in Charlotte Harbor. Too many people running where they should be fishing


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## The Fin

Gatorbig said:


> Millhouse was a good conversation, another question I liked/ wonder about is when Nicky and Andy asked when they as customers have earned the right to diy and show up to the spots they have paid to be taken to. And how some guides (at least 1 in keys) have a problem with them fishing spots.


I imagine that some guides would have a big problem with the Mills boys showing up as they (Mills) are as talented as any two anglers out there when it comes to catching Tarpon.


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## TheFrequentFlier

The Fin said:


> I imagine that some guides would have a big problem with the Mills boys showing up as they (Mills) are as talented as any two anglers out there when it comes to catching Tarpon.


This is where I kind of take issue with folks. Disclaimer: not specifically talking about the Mill’s…But, If you’ve paid your way to have guides drag you around for most of your adult life - whether it’s tournaments or otherwise - and then you eventually buy your own skiff, at what point can you start using the same spots that have been developed thanks to those same guides that busted their asses to understand those spots and the tides and waters and hydrography over the years/decades and put in tens of thousands of hours of sweat equity that you have not... not saying folks haven’t invested time in the sport when they dump money at it (looking at the Wall Street types), I guess what I’m saying is that’s it at a different level if you’ve had your hand held the entire way by guides (and television shows) vs the pure DIY guy that’s has spent time on the water figuring it out for himself.

Tricky topic for sure. Standing by for spears.


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## lemaymiami

Won’t toss the first spear… issues raised here come with the territory and should be talked about. Whenever I’m asked about tournaments in the Keys for instance, I simply say I don’t wear the right shirts…


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## The Fin

TheFrequentFlier said:


> This is where I kind of take issue with folks. Disclaimer: not specifically talking about the Mill’s…But, If you’ve paid your way to have guides drag you around for most of your adult life - whether it’s tournaments or otherwise - and then you eventually buy your own skiff, at what point can you start using the same spots that have been developed thanks to those same guides that busted their asses to understand those spots and the tides and waters and hydrography over the years/decades and put in tens of thousands of hours of sweat equity that you have not... not saying folks haven’t invested time in the sport when they dump money at it (looking at the Wall Street types), I guess what I’m saying is that’s it at a different level if you’ve had your hand held the entire way by guides (and television shows) vs the pure DIY guy that’s has spent time on the water figuring it out for himself.
> 
> Tricky topic for sure. Standing by for spears.


Good points!


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## Naturecoastfly

I think someone nailed it earlier. There’s certain places I have discovered with a mutual friend either in my skiff or his and to this date we will exclusively fish those places when we are together or when we are solo.
I’d love to take other folks and experience what goes on there but as far as I’m concerned it’s off limits unless I am by myself or with that particular friend I learned it with and he feels the same way.

I’m no guide but I think if Andy was my client for years and years to the point my family knew him personally and he paid me well for many many years I’d say he probably earned his right to fish just about anywhere I showed him. I would think his relationship would be more valuable than a “spot” and I also would kind of expect he would be respectful of the spots and hold everything to a high/respectful standard on his end as well.


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## TheFrequentFlier

Naturecoastfly said:


> I think someone nailed it earlier. There’s certain places I have discovered with a mutual friend either in my skiff or his and to this date we will exclusively fish those places when we are together or when we are solo.
> I’d love to take other folks and experience what goes on there but as far as I’m concerned it’s off limits unless I am by myself or with that particular friend I learned it with and he feels the same way.
> 
> I’m no guide but I think if Andy was my client for years and years to the point my family knew him personally and he paid me well for many many years I’d say he probably earned his right to fish just about anywhere I showed him. I would think his relationship would be more valuable than a “spot” and I also would kind of expect he would be respectful of the spots and hold everything to a high/respectful standard on his end as well.


So just to be clear, do you “earn a spot” by “paying for it for years and years?”


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## Naturecoastfly

I don’t think it’s the paycheck I think it’s the friendship/bond you’ve built over the years.
There’s a big difference in a repeat client vs someone you want to have over for dinner/ at your kids wedding/ at your funeral. I think that person has probably earned it.


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## TheFrequentFlier

Naturecoastfly said:


> I don’t think it’s the paycheck I think it’s the friendship/bond you’ve built over the years.
> There’s a big difference in a repeat client vs someone you want to have over for dinner/ at your kids wedding/ at your funeral. I think that person has probably earned it.


valid and totally fair.


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## Jason M

TheFrequentFlier said:


> This is where I kind of take issue with folks. Disclaimer: not specifically talking about the Mill’s…But, If you’ve paid your way to have guides drag you around for most of your adult life - whether it’s tournaments or otherwise - and then you eventually buy your own skiff, at what point can you start using the same spots that have been developed thanks to those same guides that busted their asses to understand those spots and the tides and waters and hydrography over the years/decades and put in tens of thousands of hours of sweat equity that you have not... not saying folks haven’t invested time in the sport when they dump money at it (looking at the Wall Street types), I guess what I’m saying is that’s it at a different level if you’ve had your hand held the entire way by guides (and television shows) vs the pure DIY guy that’s has spent time on the water figuring it out for himself.
> 
> Tricky topic for sure. Standing by for spears.


I think we can all agree that once the guide retires it is fair game! Lol

All good points and I don't have a spear either but at some point you become friends and there's an agreement. I've been fishing with a guide in KW for more than a decade. I think there's spots I could fish with no problem and there's spots I'd never go.


----------



## 7WT

If you fish an area a long enough time ( and that time depends on how good you are) and you are paying attention to all or most of the details you can understand the fishery for the species you are targeting whether your a guide or not a guide. You will find spots. Maybe they are also a guides and others maybe not.


----------



## TheFrequentFlier

Jason M said:


> I think we can all agree that once the guide retires it is fair game! Lol
> 
> All good points and I don't have a spear either but at some point you become friends and there's an agreement. I've been fishing with a guide in KW for more than a decade. I think there's spots I could fish with no problem and there's spots I'd never go.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Jason M said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think we can all agree that once the guide retires it is fair game! Lol
> 
> All good points and I don't have a spear either but at some point you become friends and there's an agreement. I've been fishing with a guide in KW for more than a decade. I think there's spots I could fish with no problem and there's spots I'd never go.
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve had this same sentiment when I was stationed in South Carolina. I felt like he was likely the best guide for redfish in the state, and although that may be arguable, he took me to places that I would never ever venture to on my own skiff (his old one, in fact). That said, as I was leaving town to move on to the next chapter, I started sending him pics of/talking about a few spots that I actually found over the years on my own. Now I get pictures every so often when he’s hooking fish in that same spot and it totally warms my heart. I’m glad he’s there fishing it, because I physically cannot be. I would still never fish the same spots he showed me over the years, unless he told me explicitly that I could, but I’m damn glad he sometimes enjoys mine.
Click to expand...


----------



## Fishshoot

He's not the only one doing it up there. He is at least a decade behind the originals up there, but he was the one to seek glory and do a movie etc, and now whines about it and tries to bully other anglers and guides. Works on some, not on others.....


----------



## MRichardson

If I lived up there I would get skull buoys. Scarier, meaner skulls. Seems like something I would do.


----------



## finbully

RennieRae said:


> This is an interesting listen for guide "etiquette" in the area you are referring to.
> 
> David Mangum — Mill House


That guy is from another planet if he thinks no one can figure out a spot completely on their own! He is heading for disaster if he tries to bully the wrong person, particularly on the water.


----------



## kjnengr

The Fin said:


> I imagine that some guides would have a big problem with the Mills boys showing up as they (Mills) are as talented as any two anglers out there when it comes to catching Tarpon.


I think I would rather have them fish the spot correctly than to have some unexperienced guy set up and act incorrectly and throw the fish off.


----------



## Padre

Naturecoastfly said:


> So I understand and respect the fact that guides make their living on the water. I also understand there are some crappy people in this world that will follow/scout guides for the cheating way of learning new spots.
> 
> However as a traveling angler and someone trying to be respectful of locals I pose a question. How does one approach a new area (going in blind) and avoid confrontation by unknowingly stumbling across someone’s “spot”?
> 
> A friend told me a story today about his buddy who tarpon fished north west FL and got into an altercation at daylight because he unknowingly beat a “guide” to “his spot”. The guy innocently found the place on google earth and felt like it would be a good starting point.


And we in North West Florida know who that guide was.


----------



## Mako 181

I have taken people to “spots” on my boat. I am not a guide so if you are on my boat I take the chance that you will not tell all. 

But VERY few get on my boat so.....

I usually fish areas and if I have a “spot” in that area we just go to it without stating it is one of my “spots”. If I say anything it may be “ have you ever fished over there” or “wow We got a few fish out of here I gotta remember this place”

I don’t say much but to a few chosen but that’s pretty much anyone on my boat. 
I fish solo a lot cos I don’t take many out on my boat.


----------



## Padre

TidewateR said:


> It was entertaining to hear Nicky express his point of view to Mangum. Nicky basically asked.. well what if I fish a new area to me, using spots I find on google earth and end up on your spot by chance? I don't recall Mangums exact answer, but in my opinion, he didn't have an answer for that. Mangum harps on the scenario where an angler sees him fishing a spot, then goes there the next day. That's bad etiquette and kind of chicken shit in my opinion...but the guy who does his homework, has no idea who fishes where and gets to the spot before the guide, did nothing wrong. The guide believes no one else could possibly find this spot on their own without shedding all the sweat, blood tears etc etc???...that's chicken shit as well.
> 
> As for tower boats...they have absolutely RUINED some prime tarpon areas along the beach (yes some MS members here do it too in the particular area). Run along the beach on the 2nd bar until you find a school..follow the school while you pound on them for as long as you can....then move on the next school and repeat it. It harasses the fish, makes them swim deep, and doesn't mesh with the anchor and wait style. The fish are swimming down the beach! Why not just wait for them to come to you?? The result would be much happier fish and schools that could be fished by multiple boats spread out in a given stretch of beach.
> 
> Exhibit "A"


I remember one time we were fishing the Arkansas river in Colorado. The first day we got a guide from Salida. We told him that the next day we were going to DIY fish. So he didn't show us any secret spots. We mainly fished public spots accessible on the highway between Salida and Cotopaxi. That night we got on Google earth and found a spot that we would have to 4 X 4 to and then take a short hike to get to. Right when we walked up, we could see the trout stacked up down below. We had a great morning catching fish after fish. About an hour and a half into it, I could hear someone coming up the trail across the river and in walks that guide by himself. We yelled hellos and his first question was, "How did you guys find this place?" We told him on Google Earth. He wasn't upset and actually said, "good job." Google has changed fishing for sure and probably to guys like him, not in a direction that he would want.


----------



## "RockyG"

finbully said:


> That guy is from another planet if he thinks no one can figure out a spot completely on their own! He is heading for disaster if he tries to bully the wrong person, particularly on the water.


David Mangum is a #[email protected]# pure and simple. He showed up to our little spot up here in the great NW and didn't know jack poop. So he watched and learned and suddenly he invented Location X and is just soooo famous. And now he is pissed when someone sees him and is in his spot the next day. Well, guess what DS, you are in our spot. 

I can name exactly who "found" every one of the spots the few guides that are left still currently fish. The irony of the story is the guy who first showed Mangum the spot asked him for some tarpon advice recently and he acted like he didn't even know who he was. What a #[email protected]#. 

The greater irony is after 20 years the spot is a sad shadow of what it used to be. The fish have learned to swim deeper and avoid the "spots" we found all those years ago. On the most perfect tarpon day last month there were 4 skiff trailers in the parking lot when I launched. Sad....just sad.


----------



## MRichardson

I guess on the upside, there were only 4 trailers there.


----------



## lemaymiami

That's an ongoing process - everywhere... When I first became interested in flats fishing (bonefish, permit) down here in south Florida my usual ramp was on Key Biscayne - that was around 1974 - 75. In those days it was unusual to see a "flats boat" at all with the exception of a few guides (and there were only four guides for all of Biscayne Bay) that's roughly fifty miles from the top of the urban area down to Key Largo and one of them, Chief Harmon, was only part time.... Nowadays flats boats, technical poling skiffs, and absolute microskiffs - are everywhere from Canada all the way south (as far south as south goes, like that TV show said...). Nowadays I avoid that ramp like the plague...

Today there's at least 12 to 15 guides working that area daily - and for every guide - there's at least one weekend warrior - that's just as well equipped (or better) and with today's electronics - darned few "secret spots" at all.... That's just one of the reasons I retreated back into Everglades National Park years ago (and when anyone asks about bonefish I point them to someone else - not me....).


----------



## K3anderson

TheFrequentFlier said:


> This is where I kind of take issue with folks. Disclaimer: not specifically talking about the Mill’s…But, If you’ve paid your way to have guides drag you around for most of your adult life - whether it’s tournaments or otherwise - and then you eventually buy your own skiff, at what point can you start using the same spots that have been developed thanks to those same guides that busted their asses to understand those spots and the tides and waters and hydrography over the years/decades and put in tens of thousands of hours of sweat equity that you have not... not saying folks haven’t invested time in the sport when they dump money at it (looking at the Wall Street types), I guess what I’m saying is that’s it at a different level if you’ve had your hand held the entire way by guides (and television shows) vs the pure DIY guy that’s has spent time on the water figuring it out for himself.
> 
> Tricky topic for sure. Standing by for spears.


Not tricky at all. I totally agree. I've poled endless flats here and found nothing 95% of the time. I've gone up and down canals in 900 degree heat looking for micros and found nothing 95% of the time. The places I found are mine and I earned them. If you do what I had to do, you earned them too. If you paid someone to bring you to them you didn't. 80% of fly fishing is being where the fish are. Most of the rest is making the right cast at the right time, etc. And a little is the right fly. If I bring you to a place where they are rolling and you go the next day and take your pics, you missed out. You don't appreciate what it takes and won't appreciate that fish near as much. Your loss. Post your insta pic though. 

The only exception is kids. When I bring my 12 y/o and he crushes it  Just giving him the bug so its ok. Someday he will have to find his own too. And he will want to. Like I do.

I do like the Millhouse podcasts. Because I get to hear how the old school guides did it. They had to do all of the above plus unlock all the flies leaders, boats, poling and everything else. A couple of those being guided like Del also earned it. I know every one they jump means even more to them than I can understand.


----------



## Poon.Patrol

While not everyone has had the ability to flyfish for tarpon for decades, more and more fisherman are on the water every year and well known spots are being over populated. This includes myself and the other skiffs (recreational and guides) that are on the water too not just the googans...I have been ran over my countless tower boats, seen jet skiers do donuts around tarpon, and had pontoons anchor up within casting distance and go swimming next to me...

I find it very frustrating and difficult to try to communicate proper boating ettiequte let alone tarpon ettiequte. Yelling from your boat to another boat is typically not perceived well from the receiving end... I want to believe its ignorance but also I know sometimes its self entitlement when another angler cuts you off and acts like you haven't been sitting there waiting for that same string to pass by only to have a tower boat throwing white water wakes and plopping baits on the tarpon's head. When these kind of events occur what do you guys say? or do you just ignore it?


----------



## "RockyG"

What do I do? I used to yell, and I was not opposed to doing a few doughnuts around the offender. That was then. Now at well into my 60's I just pick up and move to one of my other dozen or more spots while shaking my head. lol 

And......don't go after tarpon anymore, ever. 

And......fish during the week, and never ever on a Saturday or a holiday weekend.


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## Flats Hunter

Interesting thread.

I would wager that the Jupiter/Stuart area I often fish is so overcrowded now there aren't really any secret spots left. Back when I used to fish Biscayne Bay alot everyone knew where the spots were too. IMO the more important factor isn't the where but the when. Most of us can study Google Earth and know where to go but getting that tide time just right based on the weather/water temps is the key.

That being said, I've been fishing Chokoloskee a lot lately and I'm trying to learn the area. For me learning a new location is fun. Just being told where to go takes away the thrill of the hunt. My rule of thumb there is to move on if someone is in an area. Plenty of water around. I prefer to be alone anyways.


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## Gatorbig

Summer Airboat tours kill half of my redfish spots that I can reach with paddleboard, weekends there will be 5 or 6 of them at the landing. They are as bad in the marsh as jetskis on the flats. Paddle 2 miles to a creek and start fishing the mouth airboat tour rips into the creek does a 360 and blows back out.


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## Mark H

After this thread I"m thinking of giving up fishing.


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## Naturecoastfly

Mark H said:


> After this thread I"m thinking of giving up fishing.


One less person I gotta worry about being in my spot 🤣🤣🤣


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## Gatorbig

I think the new move is to get a smileyface buoy 🙂 That way people know you're a nice guy and will let you have the spot?


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## ReelBoi

Gatorbig said:


> I think the new move is to get a smileyface buoy 🙂 That way people know you're a nice guy and will let you have the spot?


It seems like a rainbow buoy would scare the majority of this crew away, haha 🙃


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## altonclark

I try to show respect but I've also developed my own spots and it's still amazing that some guides thing people haven't over the years learned the same spots. Happened to me recently in Boca Grande last month. I've had the spot for several years now but it never stops people from saying something. I wish people and/or guides would just go about saying something with more tact and professionalism. I got cussed by a local guide with my son on the boat who was dumbfounded.


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## Jason M

altonclark said:


> I try to show respect but I've also developed my own spots and it's still amazing that some guides thing people haven't over the years learned the same spots. Happened to me recently in Boca Grande last month. I've had the spot for several years now but it never stops people from saying something. I wish people and/or guides would just go about saying something with more tact and professionalism. I got cussed by a local guide with my son on the boat who was dumbfounded.


That's straight up jack ass behavior with a kid on the boat. 

I've calmed down quite a bit but I'm not against politely asking, then not so politely asking.

I'll give you a good example of what happened to me a while ago. I was fishing a little known spot for tarpon. A new guide buzzed 100 yards of my bow. I knew of him and he knew of me. So I emailed him and it was polite but I let him know that was BS. He admitted he was wrong and we moved on. Sometimes easier to handle later.

I had a good 20 year run in some spots but like Steve Huff said I keep my mouth shut now unless I know you.


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## MSG

The Fin said:


> The guide had No reason to be a dick about it! I’ve worked well with other guides, private fishers, etc. Communicating with the guide or the other angler could have worked out quite well for everyone involved. There’s always that chance that someone “discovers” a spot before another angler (or guide). I also believe “packing” isn’t a great response! Remember, it’s only fishing!


Agreed — be packing so you can shoot someone over a fishing spot is really smart.


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## Mark H

MSG said:


> Agreed — be packing so you can shoot someone over a fishing spot is really smart.


Straw man argument.


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## Smackdaddy53

MSG said:


> Agreed — be packing so you can shoot someone over a fishing spot is really smart.


We know you are a snowflake, no need to reinforce our sentiments by extracting that one statement from all that has been brought up but you did anyway. No one said anything about shooting someone over a fishing spot, that was all from your little woke liberal brain. Move along.


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## Mark H

Smackdaddy53 said:


> We know you are a snowflake, no need to reinforce our sentiments by extracting that one statement from all that has been brought up but you did anyway. No one said anything about shooting someone over a fishing spot, that was all from your little woke liberal brain. Move along.


Hence, straw man argument by definition.


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## The Fin

Smackdaddy53 said:


> We know you are a snowflake, no need to reinforce our sentiments by extracting that one statement from all that has been brought up but you did anyway. No one said anything about shooting someone over a fishing spot, that was all from your little woke liberal brain. Move along.


Ah yes! The Sage from Zephyr Cove forgets his own post #5! Not surprised!


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## Smackdaddy53




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## The Fin

Smackdaddy53 said:


> View attachment 210054


I used to wonder who the real snowflake was? No more!


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## Smackdaddy53

Go away


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## MariettaMike

This thread reminds me of the three elderly ladies that grid-locked the parking lot in front of Crystal Springs Publix one morning.

Lady A was parked in the first handicap spot in front the center of the store.

Lady B drives in front the center of the store and is turning right down that center lane with all the handicap spots going away from the store. She sees the reverse lights of Lady A’s car in the first spot come on, hits the brake, and stops with her front bumper almost behind the parked car.

Lady C that was camped in front the store waiting for that first parking spot to open had watched Lady A load and get in her car to leave. While anticipating those reverse lights coming on, she had moved into position to turn left, and get Lady A’s parking spot. However she had to surprisingly stop when Lady B stopped.

Now Lady B and Lady C are blocking traffic from passing in front of the store while waiting for Lady A to leave.

About 10 seconds go by before all three of these cars’ horns are blowing with their drivers gesturing to the other drivers to move. Within a minute or two the drive in front of the store was filled with stopped cars.
Within the next five minutes all the parking drive lanes had stopped cars in them. Horns start to blow all around.

By now all three ladies had rolled their windows down and were yelling at each other to move. I watched this while wishing I had had a cold beer.

[Do young people still call it “rolling” windows down?]

Another few minutes go by when other store patrons try to get Lady B to move on. She refuses to move because she thinks there’s still enough room for Lady A to get out. Lady A tries to get out, but stops because its too close for her skill level. Now they’re all three jammed up like they’re not eating enough fiber.

Eventually the store manager had to come out and break it up, get them parked, and cars moving again. But it was even funnier to see Lady B and Lady C giving each other mean looks like NASCAR drivers while driving electric grocery cart buggies into the store.

Carry on ladies.


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## skinny_fishing

I wish I started flats fishing earlier when the only thing remotely showing what it was about was the Walker Cay Chronicles.

Now with Google Maps/Earth, youtube and basically the internet in general, EVERYONE knows lol. Secret spots are a thing of the past, and guides are kidding themselves if they think otherwise.


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## Megalops

altonclark said:


> I try to show respect but I've also developed my own spots and it's still amazing that some guides thing people haven't over the years learned the same spots. Happened to me recently in Boca Grande last month. I've had the spot for several years now but it never stops people from saying something. I wish people and/or guides would just go about saying something with more tact and professionalism. I got cussed by a local guide with my son on the boat who was dumbfounded.


Hmmmm. A secret tarpon spot in Boca Grande, in June. Lol.

Just busting your chops.


----------



## rovster

Mark H said:


> Of course you do. Yeah, packing is completely unnecessary...till you get attacked. Little legal lesson, you carry ALL the time and have to defend yourself or others, you are in a MUCH better position legally than if you carry occasionally and have to defend yourself or others. Carry all the time and avoid pulling it out unless you have absolutely no choice. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. God forbid I have to know I could have saved an innocent life if I had just put it in my pocket that morning. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Longer on the water.
> 
> I've never needed my seat belt either...but I put it on every time that truck moves.


I've had a few colorful exchanges on the water so yes, I pack for the day. Had one idiot once threaten us that he was "packing" when we were not. Talk about an oh shit moment. Some guys are just bullies out there hiding behind the safety of their gunnels. Had an incident with a jet skier once that was not pretty, total deuchebag. Obviously that is a last resort kind of deal but you never know out there. My dad has also had some shady interactions out there one time someone tried to board his boat saying he ran out of gas. WTF? Guy was stoned or hammered but my dad GTFO!

Back to etiquette, I'm not a tarpon fisherman but you need to give people space on the water and be mindful of what they are doing and try not to interfere. As far as anyone owning a spot, sorry buddy first come first served!


----------



## WC53

Still remember my Grandpa back in the day, son I don’t care if that old dude is anchored near the channel, don’t hit him with your wake, he might follow you back to the ramp and whup your ass….. manners maketh the man.

Now as that old dude, I’m probably too hot and tired


----------



## Mako 181

I myself feel if you are sitting or anchored up in or just outside a marked or staked channel I will not slow down to a no wake for you. I will scoot over to the other side to channel if possible but that is about it.

Nor do I expect anyone to slow or idle for me.


----------



## RennieRae

Mako 181 said:


> I myself feel if you are sitting or anchored up in or just outside a marked or staked channel I will not slow down to a no wake for you. I will scoot over to the other side to channel if possible but that is about it.


I understand your point of view on this subject Mako, but remember per state and federal law, an operator is responsible for his or her vessel’s wake and any damage or personal injury it may cause... In today's litigatory society, is it worth the hassle or $$ it might cause you? I am not judging, or preaching, just looking at it from another angle.


----------



## rovster

Mako 181 said:


> I myself feel if you are sitting or anchored up in or just outside a marked or staked channel I will not slow down to a no wake for you. I will scoot over to the other side to channel if possible but that is about it.
> 
> Nor do I expect anyone to slow or idle for me.


Absolutely. I would not slow down either unless it was a narrow channel and I couldn't veer away. I think the situation we are talking about here are open spaces that are "free to roam" such as beachfront, in the bay, on a large flat, etc. Areas where you have the room to "go around" or have space to give. I give the space I can, but if you are parked in the middle of a channel that is the only way through sorry I might ruin your spot. Actually you shouldn't be fishing there as far as I'm concerned. On the edge of a marked channel I also don't expect anyone to slow down but use common sense and give as much breathing room as possible. Burning by an anchored boat at close range is a deuche move as far as I'm concerned. Anchoring in the path of a main thoroughfare is also a deuche move.....


----------



## Mako 181

Couple places come to mind in ENP. 
Murray Key - Chanel runs right up by the point that everyone loves.
East Cape where it dumps into Florida Bay - A very secret and private hot hole! Oppps I just gave 2 of them away.

Many more but these are just 2 common trails that get 100's of boat traffic every day. 

Don't think I'm slowing down.


----------



## rovster

I slow down in east cape or at least try to go to the other side of the canal lol


----------



## Mark H

Either idle by at no wake speed or fly by at a high speed whichever seems appropriate. Just please do not slow down and mush by thereby giving me a bigger wake than either of the other two options.


----------



## MRichardson

I stop and anchor until they are done fishing, then proceed thru the channel.


----------



## TheFrequentFlier

My new one is to yell as guys that get too close to me: 

Me: “go back to New Jersey”

Them: “I’m not from New Jersey you $&&7& j%%*%!!!!!”

Me: “well then you should have some better etiquette.”

_crickets_


… have actually gotten an apology from one guy with this tactic (but not the norm)


----------



## lemaymiami

When I first started out up on the flats (and you never saw Bill Curtis south of Mashta Point (Key Biscayne)... you were never supposed to get close enough to another skiff - to be able to see what color it was.... Times have changed - but still, a little courtesy goes a long way...


----------



## Mark H

In 77 I went down to pick up dad's Bonefisher in Opa Locka. He sent me out on a guided trip. Biscayne Bay as I recall. Guide had been the drummer on Carson's tonight show band till they moved to LA. He chose to be a fishing guide at that point. Don't remember his name but I do remember his stories, the fishing and visiting a private island watched by a lady in a bikini. I don't remember being pressured by any other boats.


----------



## Sailfish_WC

RennieRae said:


> remember per state and federal law, an operator is responsible for his or her vessel’s wake and any damage or personal injury it may cause..


Does that apply to ships in a marked shipping channel and folks fishing?
The ship is liable for her 4,5,6’ etc wall of water?


----------



## Smackdaddy53

Sailfish_WC said:


> Does that apply to ships in a marked shipping channel and folks fishing?
> The ship is liable for her 4,5,6’ etc wall of water?


The shipping channel is there for ships to use, not for recreational or commercial fishermen or joy riders. Do you think a huge ship or tanker is going to limit it’s wake when the whole reason there is a channel there is because it was made for them to use? If you are fishing or running a shipping lane or adjacent flats you better be watching the ship wakes and adjust accordingly or you will have a bad day.


----------



## RennieRae

Sailfish_WC said:


> Does that apply to ships in a marked shipping channel and folks fishing?
> The ship is liable for her 4,5,6’ etc wall of water?


That's a good question and I am not sure. I would assume it does not apply to ships for the simple logic of what Smack mentioned as reasoning, but who knows anymore. If McDonalds' can be sued (and lose) over some idiot pouring hot coffee on themselves, I believe anything is possible nowadays.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

RennieRae said:


> That's a good question and I am not sure. I would assume it does not apply to ships for the simple logic of what Smack mentioned as reasoning, but who knows anymore. If McDonalds' can be sued (and lose) over some idiot pouring hot coffee on themselves, I believe anything is possible nowadays.


“Just as recreational boats are responsible for their wake and any damage or injury they cause, commercial pilots are also responsible for their ship's wake. The pilot will begin slowing the ship miles before he approaches congested waters or narrow channels. But you should protect yourself by being mindful of the ship's wake and its potential for damage and injury. If you are near the shoreline or docked when you see a big ship approaching, remember that in addition to the visible, curling bow wave from the front of the ship, you will feel the effects of the large, evenly spaced swells of the stem wake, traveling at the same speed as the s hip, long after the ship is safely passed.”

But you have to understand these huge ships will make a wake no matter what, they can only control the size to a certain point. Read more here:









Close Encounters: Commercial Shipping and You | BoatUS Foundation


Close encounters between commercial ships and recreational boats is a scenario repeated over and over throughout the United States, wherever large commercial vessels share the waterways with smaller recreational craft. These encounters occur with increasing frequency as waterfronts are developed...




www.boatus.org


----------



## Manbird

Smackdaddy53 said:


> There is no such thing as a fishing spot that belongs to someone I don’t care who, when, where or what species. If you know each other or even if you don’t and fish the same areas whoever is there first gets to fish it. Tough titty for the guide.
> Cutting someone off intentionally is different. Overhearing someone telling their honey hole they are fishing the next morning is their fault for talking too much or too loud. This goes for any type of fishing, that is why some tournament boats are faster than others.


I totally agree with this!


----------



## lemaymiami

For Mark H.... Pretty sure that drummer was Frank Garisto who used to guide out of Crandon Marina, Key Biscayne, along with Bill Curtis, and others in the mid to late seventies... 

There is a specific rule about "hampering a vessel's movement that's restricted by draft in a channel".... Of course I'm not quoting it correctly... 

As a practical matter, the "Law or Gross Tonnage" applies... It's very simple - but you'll never find it in Chapman's or any Coast Guard rule book... Stated simply the little boat keeps out of the big boat's way - since if your next of kin end up in court arguing for you... you've already lost...


----------



## The Fin

lemaymiami said:


> For Mark H.... Pretty sure that drummer was Frank Garisto who used to guide out of Crandon Marina, Key Biscayne, along with Bill Curtis, and others in the mid to late seventies...
> 
> There is a specific rule about "hampering a vessel's movement that's restricted by draft in a channel".... Of course I'm not quoting it correctly...
> 
> As a practical matter, the "Law or Gross Tonnage" applies... It's very simple - but you'll never find it in Chapman's or any Coast Guard rule book... Stated simply the little boat keeps out of the big boat's way - since if your next of kin end up in court arguing for you... you've already lost...


It doesn’t make much sense to be “dead right”!


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## Mark H

lemaymiami said:


> For Mark H.... Pretty sure that drummer was Frank Garisto who used to guide out of Crandon Marina, Key Biscayne, along with Bill Curtis, and others in the mid to late seventies...


 Frank sounds right. Thanks! Hewes hooked us up with him. Colorful fellow. Stories I did not repeat to dad.


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## Gogittum

Smackdaddy53 said:


> “Just as recreational boats are responsible for their wake and any damage or injury they cause, commercial pilots are also responsible for their ship's wake. The pilot will begin slowing the ship miles before he approaches congested waters or narrow channels. But you should protect yourself by being mindful of the ship's wake and its potential for damage and injury. If you are near the shoreline or docked when you see a big ship approaching, remember that in addition to the visible, curling bow wave from the front of the ship, you will feel the effects of the large, evenly spaced swells of the stem wake, traveling at the same speed as the s hip, long after the ship is safely passed.”
> 
> But you have to understand these huge ships will make a wake no matter what, they can only control the size to a certain point. Read more here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Close Encounters: Commercial Shipping and You | BoatUS Foundation
> 
> 
> Close encounters between commercial ships and recreational boats is a scenario repeated over and over throughout the United States, wherever large commercial vessels share the waterways with smaller recreational craft. These encounters occur with increasing frequency as waterfronts are developed...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.boatus.org


That all makes me wonder about observations I've made. Back in my youth, when ships left harbor they threw a huge wake....expected.

In ~2006 or so, I was chasing Killer Whales in Johnstone Strait, B.C., Canada and a cruise ship came down the channel, heading south. Just ripples coming off it and looked like it was just diddling along, so I aimed to pass ahead of it. Lots of room, so....?? 

It didn't work like that. Long story shorter, it turned out that ship was going faster than I was and finally had to turn and go astern of her.....but the wake was almost non-existent. I didn't even hafta slow down to cross it.

I understand that's because of the big "bulbs" on the prow of newer ships that makes it "eat its' own wake." I noticed the same thing in Strait of Juan de Fuca, WA, with ship traffic coming thru to Seattle and Tacoma. I did a lot of fishing out there and saw plenty of them.


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## Smackdaddy53

Gogittum said:


> That all makes me wonder about observations I've made. Back in my youth, when ships left harbor they threw a huge wake....expected.
> 
> In ~2006 or so, I was chasing Killer Whales in Johnstone Strait, B.C., Canada and a cruise ship came down the channel, heading south. Just ripples coming off it and looked like it was just diddling along, so I aimed to pass ahead of it. Lots of room, so....??
> 
> It didn't work like that. Long story shorter, it turned out that ship was going faster than I was and finally had to turn and go astern of her.....but the wake was almost non-existent. I didn't even hafta slow down to cross it.
> 
> I understand that's because of the big "bulbs" on the prow of newer ships that makes it "eat its' own wake." I noticed the same thing in Strait of Juan de Fuca, WA, with ship traffic coming thru to Seattle and Tacoma. I did a lot of fishing out there and saw plenty of them.


The amount of water they displace has a lot of affect on their wake as well.


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## Psycho_Killer

The wake of a boomer is something you misjudge once ….


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## Lucky

lemaymiami said:


> Bad actors can be found... anywhere.... but any guide who claims a particularly spot as "his" (don't think I've ever heard of a woman doing this sort of BS...) is just being a bully - and needs to be treated as such..... Places where there are more guides than "fishing spots" are where you'll usually find them. Fortunately most guides don't behave that way in my experience. Make no mistake though - most tarpon "spots" will only support one boat so if the idiot tries to set up on top of you - he's ruined both of your chances... That said, it's first come as far as any spot goes - and if someone is on that particular spot you've been dreaming about... simply stay away until they leave or come back another day. Something I learned many years ago is that other folks will only know a particular spot is of interest if they see you get all fired up about it... Nuff said about that...
> 
> Jason M has it right - stay well behind someone on the pole who's tarpon fishing (pretty obvious since they'll be out in the open, someone on the poling platform, with an angler in the bow.... but that's not the only thing to remember for beginners... Here's what I was taught - all those years ago for down in the Keys and similar areas...
> 
> First off how you hunt them is based on how they behave - migrating tarpon during the spawning season don't like to cross shallow areas - instead they'll try to go around them if possible. Folks who really know an area will set up on a point of a flat - or at the end of a blind channel - somewhere that moving fish will be following the bottom contour... So your first thing to learn oceanside of the Keys is never to run in four to eight feet of water if at all possible - stay out in a bit deeper water and you won't be spooking any tarpon. Next if there's a spot or a channel edge you want to set up on you simply can't run right up to it at all... Shut down as much as 500 yards out and ease into position with an electric motor or a pushpole (the way I did for so many years...) and if there's someone already working that spot or area, stay at least 200 yards away (300 is better but down in the Keys... not often possible..) and keep behind them - the first boat is the #1 position - and if he's staked out - so are you, period. If he's poling then you can too - but keep your distance - as the #2 boat you'll only become the #1 boat when the first guy has hooked up and is fighting a fish, etc (and yes some spots will accommodate a #3 spot.... (famous Buchanan Bank is one of them....). Done properly the #1 position gets the first shot at passing fish - the #2 only sees them after the #1 has already had their opportunity, etc. None of this works if there's no actual "spot" but you just have fish moving across really big flats - or following a shoreline going somewhere. The guiding principle, though, is that there ought to be a special corner in a really dark place for anyone that deliberately screws up another fellow's fishing...
> 
> All of this is just the beginning of learning to tarpon fish when you're sight-fishing them. Booking a guide in a new area to learn a bit first, is a great idea - and with the right guide you'll learn more in a day - than you will in a year on your own. Yes, it's very possible for a first timer trying to figure out a new area to spook a bunch of fish -or actually guarantee that they won't keep moving to where someone else is waiting on them - so the whole "etiquette" thing does take some learning.... and it is important.


I have not read the entire thread, but without question this is the best tarpon etiquette post I have read, thanks Bob. If I could add anything, it would be if the the guys that are in the #1 spot are fighting a fish, they often will leave an anchor buoy or pole behind on that spot. I believe it's best to let them get back to that spot back on their pole or buoy after the fish is released. Even if they don't leave anything behind, I think you should let them back to that spot, instead of having to fill in at the back, as other guys will have drifted up.

Regarding David Mangum, I totally disagree with his "intellectual capital" argument of priority to a spot, but I also totally understand why he does it, given the scarcity of spots up there compared to the keys, and that it appears to work for him, e.g., other people get tired of rude behavior and unpleasant encounters over a spot, and let him off the hook because of his reputation, both good and bad.


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## Str8-Six

This is indeed a great thread and I agree that this should be talked about.

I find it sad that these altercations still come up so often. And it seems like it’s always involving tarpon fishing which makes sense. Looking at things objectively, a non-tarpon on fly fisherman is not going to know any of this so expect them to continue to blow out tarpon and your spot. Posting up in a cut or channel edge does not mean that boat traffic will halt because of you. There are a lot of people chasing the same fish so expect them to be fishing the same spot you were planning to hit. Weather is usually bad so that will concentrate fishermen even more to protected spots. These are all things that make up the game of tarpon fishing. If you don’t like it then don’t play, that’s what I do.

Guides thinking they own spots is like a 5 year old trying to change the rules of a board game because they lost.


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## Capt.Ron

The Fin said:


> I imagine that some guides would have a big problem with the Mills boys showing up as they (Mills) are as talented as any two anglers out there when it comes to catching Tarpon.


Probably because they name every tarpon spot on their podcast….. then there’s Florida guides overstepping boarders on there saying shit they shouldn’t. I’m over it. The podcast, everything.


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## Mark H

lemaymiami said:


> For Mark H.... Pretty sure that drummer was Frank Garisto who used to guide out of Crandon Marina, Key Biscayne, along with Bill Curtis, and others in the mid to late seventies...


An image search for Frank Garisto images (194×259) (gstatic.com)
Date looks about right. He'd been going to the Keys fishing for some years before he became a guide. I'd say his timing was right. I remember him talking about fly fishing and sometimes think I could have been in early if I'd stayed and devoted myself.

Also taught music/drumming at the local community college IIRC


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## mwolaver

Mark H said:


> An image search for Frank Garisto images (194×259) (gstatic.com)
> Date looks about right. He'd been going to the Keys fishing for some years before he became a guide. I'd say his timing was right. I remember him talking about fly fishing and sometimes think I could have been in early if I'd stayed and devoted myself.
> 
> Also taught music/drumming at the local community college IIRC


I believe that Frank's wife, Joan, ran a sportfish at the same time. Colorful family.


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## Mark H

Forty five year old walk down memory lane. That was a good day.


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## skinny_fishing

Capt.Ron said:


> Probably because they name every tarpon spot on their podcast….. then there’s Florida guides overstepping boarders on there saying shit they shouldn’t. I’m over it. The podcast, everything.


Every episode I’ve ever watched/listened to they bleep out when they mention any spots.

it’s a decent podcast, better than most of drivel that’s out there I’d rather listen to guys talk about fishing than another joe rogan guest that nobody cares about


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## jonny

skinny_fishing said:


> Every episode I’ve ever watched/listened to they bleep out when they mention any spots.
> 
> it’s a decent podcast, better than most of drivel that’s out there I’d rather listen to guys talk about fishing than another joe rogan guest that nobody cares about


Yeah they are pretty good now about bleeping it out. I think they caught hell about being too specific. I know of one where Nicky would not shut. And Andy kept hushing him. But he kept going into to detail even about the water color. I was like damn now everyone knows about it. Or maybe it was just I could pick up on it because I was already familiar with it. But you are right they do more bleeping now.


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## Gatorbig

I have picked up a couple spots in the keys they tried to beep but the context and reading their lips made it obvious.


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## Cronced

Jerry Garcia of all people had the best quote about this and he wasn't even talking about fishing for tarpon.

"You don't want to be the best at what you do. You want to be the only one."

I've followed this advice in my fishing pursuits and I have staked out a lot of times and spots where I have the fishing to myself. I don't fish the cosmic honey holes a lot of people look for and I have found a few gems in some not very likely places. Even in the bustling nonsense of Miami I have a lot of really excellent tarpon fishing all to myself because I fish uncomfortable places at night.

I get that this approach isn't for everyone. There have been more fishless days than I care to remember, days where I went prospecting around in places that look unlikely. Four out of five times a location that looks bad IS bad, but occasionally I'll find some productive water that everyone else skips over.

And every once in a while I'll go back to a spot that I have never had luck with just to make sure. Some of my best catches have come from these previous dud spots. And a huge bonus to these types of spots is the fish there are easier to catch because they don't spend their days dodging lures and flies thrown at them.


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## PTLuv2Fish

Naturecoastfly said:


> So I understand and respect the fact that guides make their living on the water. I also understand there are some crappy people in this world that will follow/scout guides for the cheating way of learning new spots.
> 
> However as a traveling angler and someone trying to be respectful of locals I pose a question. How does one approach a new area (going in blind) and avoid confrontation by unknowingly stumbling across someone’s “spot”?
> 
> A friend told me a story today about his buddy who tarpon fished north west FL and got into an altercation at daylight because he unknowingly beat a “guide” to “his spot”. The guy innocently found the place on google earth and felt like it would be a good starting point.


A good guide has sooo many good spots he or she just don't care about someone finding just one of them. I actually had that happen on a Snapper trip years ago. Our guide was sooo professional and just said to this other Captain and all his clients that he had soooo many other good spots that he would help him out gladly. You have to consider the lack of character that seems to pervade our society now days. If a guide acted like that with me that trip would be over and so would his money.


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