# Sea level rise



## Fritz (Jan 17, 2017)

I’ve noticed the opposite down in the Keys. Lived on the same canal for almost twenty years and it seems like the low tides are lower, a bit more rock sticking up on the sides at low tide then ‘back in the day.’

I’ve seen data that showed sea levels are falling just lately. Do an internet search (I used to say Google it, now I use DuckDuckGo, so DuckDuckGo it!): https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017...ng-sea-levels-two-years-amidst-media-blackout

Climate Change may well turn out to be what the late HL Menken would describe as a ‘Hobgoblin.’ A great distraction so we won’t pay attention to the real problems that are out there. And there are some real problems out there...


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## dranrab (Oct 9, 2016)

We definitely see higher highs here than we used to. I don't know about lows. Many of the docks I work are covered with water when I work them. The old timers will tell you it used to take a really good blow to put water over the docks. Today it's normal. This is in South LA.

I should add a few notes. Some of it is likely attributable to subsidence since we are on highly organic land. We have built levees around most of the coast. Those levees will surely change the hydrology and biology of the coast for ways we won't fully understand for decades.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

I've been tracking tide levels for decades.
Part of my job as a land surveyor.
Results of tide studies are turned in to the DEP and collated by NOAA.

https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends.html


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Mosquito lagoon seems same as usual. Nowhere you couldn’t go before and can now. Just normal level change with the seasons and moon.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Ahh... you know... Global warming, ice caps melting.... sea level rising...










They say Florida will be underwater one day. But I'm just hoping my home 5 mins away from water will be waterfront property soon!


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

Backwater said:


> Ahh... you know... Global warming, ice caps melting.... sea level rising...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I ve had water in the foundation vents twice in the last 8 yrs, i never wanted a house boat I would love to have some pics with skiff tied to back deck tho.


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## dranrab (Oct 9, 2016)

What area are you in Rob?


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## dranrab (Oct 9, 2016)

Brett said:


> I've been tracking tide levels for decades.
> Part of my job as a land surveyor.
> Results of tide studies are turned in to the DEP and collated by NOAA.
> 
> https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends.html


The area that I am in is experiencing the greatest rise on the planet, and it shows!


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Backwater said:


> Ahh... you know... Global warming, ice caps melting.... sea level rising...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


May work out for both of us!! I want just enough warming for a resident Snook population in the Panhandle.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

I just don't get why people think the Earth is a static system. Its been heating and cooling for millennia. Land masses have been shifting and moving around for millennia. Species have been rising and falling for millennia. 

We can be smart about protecting habitat, conserving resources, developing alternative energy sources, and etc. But there is very little humans can do to significantly impact these cycles. And there is nothing we can do to prevent them from occurring.

We're not driving this boat...we're along for the ride...


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

dranrab said:


> What area are you in Rob?


Nc pamlico sound


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

crboggs said:


> I just don't get why people think the Earth is a static system. Its been heating and cooling for millennia. Land masses have been shifting and moving around for millennia. Species have been rising and falling for millennia.
> 
> We can be smart about protecting habitat, conserving resources, developing alternative energy sources, and etc. But there is very little humans can do to significantly impact these cycles. And there is nothing we can do to prevent them from occurring.
> 
> We're not driving this boat...we're along for the ride...


It’s all a cycle and just doesn’t seem like it because we are only alive for a split second in relation to how long the earth has been around.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> It’s all a cycle and just doesn’t seem like it because we are only alive for a split second in relation to how long the earth has been around.


Less than a split second...yup.

And that's my argument when people say the science is settled or that we can "save the planet" if we follow global warming dogma.

All we can do is try to be smart in our choices and decisions which is why I'm way more concerned about habitat destruction and pollution than I am temp changes, because those are areas we can directly impact.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Mother Nature will have the earth back to normal long after our species is extinct. There’s nothing that time can’t break down.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

LowHydrogen said:


> May work out for both of us!! I want just enough warming for a resident Snook population in the Panhandle.


You don't get any of our snook. You just have to come down here and fish!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Mother Nature will have the earth back to normal long after our species is extinct. There’s nothing that time can’t break down.


Yeah, us humans are like a virus, spreading everywhere, consuming everything in our path and destroying everything in our wake. I just hope me, my family, kids and eventually the grand kids are all long gone before Mother Nature drops the hammer down on all of us, like a bucket full of termicide on a bed of termites!


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Boggs has it exactly right our climate has never been stable - and "climate change" describes what goes on over the millennia -always either warming or cooling (sometimes so dramatically that all life on this planet was almost gone according to geologists who read the record in the earth's crust...). "Climate Change" is exactly how things work - but I'm getting ahead of myself...

As the old saw went... "Everybody complains about the weather - but nobody ever does anything about it" - that is until now when politicians from one side of the political spectrum have shouted to the heavens that the sky is falling (or was that Chicken Little?). Now we have "global warming" or is it "global cooling" - I know... we'll call it "climate change".... If P.T. Barnum were alive today he'd be laughing his fanny off...

Add to that folks who were foolish enough to build right next to the ocean on land that used to be swamp (and very predictably have flooding problems whenever king tides come along.. The best example (or worst...) that I can think of is Miami Beach... and now they're busy figuring out ways to get the state or federal government to pay for fixing... what they caused...

One last pointed example of how things actually work over time... It's not an accident that the hottest portion of archaealogy these days is underwater work -where whole towns, villages, and settlements can be found along one coast or other --- ten to twenty feet under water.... wonder how all that happened before "global warming"....


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

Im not wanting to start another political debate cause, at it's root, this really isn't a political issue but to say the science isn't settled is laughable. Math doesn't lie and the current "cycle" correlates with the industrial revolution and resulting release of carbon to the point that it is a mathematical certainty that we are causing the sudden spike in temps. 

It really is a shame that it has become partusan and normally reasoned people are convinced to not only refuse science, but also math.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

trekker said:


> Im not wanting to start another political debate cause, at it's root, this really isn't a political issue but to say the science isn't settled is laughable. Math doesn't lie and the current "cycle" correlates with the industrial revolution and resulting release of carbon to the point that it is a mathematical certainty that we are causing the sudden spike in temps.
> 
> It really is a shame that it has become partusan and normally reasoned people are convinced to not only refuse science, but also math.


So a hurricane is nothing more than a giant fractal algorithm of geometric mathematical equations?



















Whoooaa......


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

It's hard to dispute the evidence that things are getting warmer. What's debatable is the cause. And if human activity is the cause, does anyone really think that as long as profit is involved China, India, Indonesia, Russia, and most of the Third World nations are going to give a crap about hydrocarbon emissions? We need to quit obsessing about how we're going to stop or reverse the inevitable and start thinking about actions that will allow us to live with the changes that are surely coming.


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## jboriol (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm a geologist and studied climate change in school before it was such a polarizing issue. Climate change is fact, our impact is questionable. The Earth has and will always change, sometimes because of us (deforestation, coastal development, gas emissions, aquifers pumped down, and generally being shitty stewards of our planet) but regardless of anything we do the earth's dynamic systems will keep on doing thier thing long after we are gone. What was desert is now rain forrest and the bottom of the ocean is now in Colorado as the earth's plates keep moving. I studied core samples from beneath the ice of Antarctica and it contained remnants of perfectly preserved coral reefs and found marine fossils in the mountains of New Mexico. Yes, at our current rate sea level will rise as the earth warms, ocean currents change global temperature, ice melts, and land subsidence occurs. In the next hundred years and potentially in your grandchildren's lifetime there will be dramatic changes in the climate, geography, and coastline just like its always happened through geologic time. Then again...one catastrophic volcanic eruption could cool the climate and we are headed for the next ice age. Not to say we should not control what we can like water quality and habitat loss but we just can't stop geologic time so you just need to sell me all of your water front property for $.01 on the dollar when you run for the hills


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

trekker said:


> to say the science isn't settled is laughable.


What is laughable is asserting that science is settled.

Science, by nature, is never 100% settled. There may be degrees of certainty and understanding but it is *NEVER *settled. True scientists are always measuring and collecting data and revising their hypotheses or assumptions. Anyone who tells you that science is settled has an agenda...

I don't know your background but I'm a Georgia Tech grad.

Take a few minutes to read this open letter from Judith Curry. She was the Chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at Tech. 

https://judithcurry.com/2017/01/03/jc-in-transition/

If you don't want to take the time to read the whole thing, read at least the following excerpt:

--
_*The reward system that is in place for university faculty members is becoming increasingly counterproductive to actually educating students to be able to think and cope in the real world, and in expanding the frontiers of knowledge in a meaningful way* (at least in certain fields that are publicly relevant such as climate change). I’ve written on these topics before, I won’t belabor this here.

So why not try to change the system from the inside? Well, this is not the battle I want to fight, apart from any realistic assessment of being able to shift the ponderous beast from within.

Or maybe it’s just a case of ‘wrong trousers’ as far as I’m concerned. Simply, universities no longer feel like the ‘real deal’ to me (note: this criticism is not targeted at Georgia Tech, which is better than most). It’s time for me to leave the ivory tower.

*A deciding factor was that I no longer know what to say to students and postdocs regarding how to navigate the CRAZINESS in the field of climate science. Research and other professional activities are professionally rewarded only if they are channeled in certain directions approved by a politicized academic establishment *— funding, ease of getting your papers published, getting hired in prestigious positions, appointments to prestigious committees and boards, professional recognition, etc.

How young scientists are to navigate all this is beyond me, and *it often becomes a battle of scientific integrity versus career suicide* (I have worked through these issues with a number of skeptical young scientists).
--
_
This is what happens when you assert that science is settled and dogma is associated with what new scientists are expected to learn or find. Progress and understanding ends and we find ourselves in an echo chamber that delivers a self fulfilling prophecy...

In effect...we stop asking ourselves, "What if we're wrong?" and that is a dangerous thing.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

This winter is going to be a super cold one. Let’s discuss this again in April and see what everyone thinks about global warming. Last winter we had three bad fish kills here in Texas when the water temperature was nearly freezing.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

crboggs said:


> What is laughable is asserting that science is settled.
> 
> Science, by nature, is never 100% settled. There may be degrees of certainty and understanding but it is *NEVER *settled. True scientists are always measuring and collecting data and revising their hypotheses or assumptions. Anyone who tells you that science is settled has an agenda...
> 
> ...


Fair enough. "Science is settled" can be thrown out. The math cannot. P values and confidence intervals don't lie to us like someone who has an agenda. The causation is certain.

I bet a fair amount on college football games. If my data was this strong, I would've been retired at 25.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> This winter is going to be a super cold one. Let’s discuss this again in April and see what everyone thinks about global warming. Last winter we had three bad fish kills here in Texas when the water temperature was nearly freezing.


Thats like saying the 85 Bears couldn't run the ball because Walter Payton was stopped for a loss on back to back plays in game 11.


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Can we get back to beers, babes, boats and BBQ. It’s more entertaining while I perform my own environmental disaster. However I do like science.


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> This winter is going to be a super cold one. Let’s discuss this again in April and see what everyone thinks about global warming. Last winter we had three bad fish kills here in Texas when the water temperature was nearly freezing.


Last winter nc shut down trout fishing due to an unseasonably cold winter. Didnt open up until mid june


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> This winter is going to be a super cold one. Let’s discuss this again in April and see what everyone thinks about global warming. Last winter we had three bad fish kills here in Texas when the water temperature was nearly freezing.


Climate change doesn’t necessarily mean warmer weather, but rather it disrupts weather patterns.

It’s also analogous to red tide in the fact that we aren’t creating global warming, but we are enhancing it.

Focusing on manageable areas of immediate fixation such as habitat restorations and water quality issues are areas with a greater tangible kickback in my opinion.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

trekker said:


> Fair enough. "Science is settled" can be thrown out. The math cannot. P values and confidence intervals don't lie to us like someone who has an agenda. The causation is certain.


I would argue that our sample size is too small and that the planet will heat or cool in cycles impacted by various factors that may or may not even be terrestrial. Even the slightest change in our orbit or the sun itself will be reflected in temps here.

Regardless...we're a passenger on this ball of dirt. To think otherwise is a bit egotistical.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

crboggs said:


> I would argue that our sample size is too small and that the planet will heat or cool in cycles impacted by various factors that may or may not even be terrestrial. Even the slightest change in our orbit or the sun itself will be reflected in temps here.
> 
> Regardless...we're a passenger on this ball of dirt. To think otherwise is a bit egotistical.


I like how Joe Rogan explains it. “We are a bunch of advanced monkeys living on a rock that’s spinning through space”...


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## MooreMiller (Sep 10, 2016)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I like how Joe Rogan explains it. “We are a bunch of advanced monkeys living on a rock that’s spinning through space”...


Actually, it’s a flat disk that is falling up. Lol


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## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

I'm not going to mince words here. Climate change is real and exacerbated by man's actions. If you don't believe it that's too bad but you might as well tell me you think the sky is purple or that your boat runs on unicorn farts. You literally do not believe in science, and that's a shame.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2018)

State fish rob said:


> Last winter nc shut down trout fishing due to an unseasonably cold winter. Didnt open up until mid june


I believe it was 2010 when we had snow on the ground in Homosassa! Must have been millions of fish killed that year!


jimsmicro said:


> I'm not going to mince words here. Climate change is real and exacerbated by man's actions. If you don't believe it that's too bad but you might as well tell me you think the sky is purple or that your boat runs on unicorn farts. You literally do not believe in science, and that's a shame.


I don’t know that anyone is disputing that climate change is real or that we could be making it happen at a greater rate. What I am gathering is most believe the science tends to be scued one way or another to create the results wanted by whomever is funding the research! I am with @jboriol on this! This big blue berry is gonna do what this big blue berry does and we ain’t gonna stop that! If we are speeding up or slowing down the process I couldn’t say, but one day “probably soon” we’ll be gone, everything on the surface will work it’s way back to the core, and this ol’ girl will heal! Sucks for us humans, but hey... it is what it is.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I tell you what, you ice cap melting and ocean rise 
take a glass, fill it to the rim with ice then fill it with water. Let it sit till the ice melts.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

permitchaser said:


> I tell you what, you ice cap melting and ocean rise
> take a glass, fill it to the rim with ice then fill it with water. Let it sit till the ice melts.


Huh?


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

Well, my boat runs on unicorn farts and the sky is purple.


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## MooreMiller (Sep 10, 2016)

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddar...ns-of-antarctic-ice-sheet-greater-than-losses

This is why I have trust issues.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

In case my previous posting wasn't clear enough... "climate change" has always been an on-going process - Climate is always changing - one way or the other -either warming or cooling, getting wetter or dryer... The Sahara desert - wasn't always a desert, Great Britain was, at one time, a great wine growing region, as little as 10,000 years ago everything south of where Orlando is now - was under the ocean... But of course our own lives are so relatively short that we can't see this on-going change (until someone with an agenda starts shouting about it - usually citing some predicted time in the future....)

What hasn't changed is that our desire to control our environment can range from the reasonable to the absurd..... and there will always be those who seek to profit one way or the other.... I've been fortunate enough to work with a few of the scientific types from Mote Marine Labs and they were all up-front about the requirements of their profession. In short, they all "follow the money". If funding dries up for whatever they're working on - that's the end of that... and they'll be looking for funding somewhere else (usually on a different topic...). Anyone that thinks that doesn't apply to climate research is kidding themselves... Any scientist that comes up with contrary data, opinions, etc. isn't going to get funded again (if ever), when there's an established political goal.

I find it interesting that with the slow decline of organized religion, we begin to see folks that appear to worship "science" without being sufficiently educated on whatever topic is involved to be able to know for certain whether the "science" involved is actually correct, reliable, and whether someone or some organization might just have their thumb on the scales.... If you look closely at those organizations that rabidly tout science as the justification for their agendas you also start hearing about "social justice" and other ideas that are little more than favoring one group - at the expense of others.... Come to think of it - this whole area of concern is probably one of the factors in Tuesday's festivities... Me, I've already voted.


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

permitchaser said:


> I tell you what, you ice cap melting and ocean rise
> take a glass, fill it to the rim with ice then fill it with water. Let it sit till the ice melts.


What?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2018)

State fish rob said:


> What?


Just try it!


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

The problem with the "ice in a glass" analogy is that much of the polar ice caps are not floating in water, but sitting on bedrock. Let's not do stupid science as an argument against biased science.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

mosquitolaGOON said:


> Climate change doesn’t necessarily mean warmer weather, but rather it disrupts weather patterns.


Within my lifetime there have been scary stories about the planet cooling and an upcoming ice age and there have been stories about the planet heating and the sea levels rising. 

So now its being labeled as "anthropological climate change" which is the theory that climate change is a human problem rather than a natural problem. 

This is the narcissistic view that I tend to argue against. The data points to changes in the climate and weather patterns. But to attribute causation or remediation 100% to the actions of man is the height of vanity and conceit.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

jimsmicro said:


> I'm not going to mince words here. Climate change is real and exacerbated by man's actions. If you don't believe it that's too bad but you might as well tell me you think the sky is purple or that your boat runs on unicorn farts. *You literally do not believe in science, and that's a shame.*


These are the absolutes that pretty much end all constructive discussion and which damage the scientific process in general. The old "science denier" label is about as threadbare and overused as the various deplorable labels the left uses with impunity. 

Many of us agree that the climate is changing. It never stops changing. There's very little we can do to prevent it from changing or to make it change in the way we want it to. 

As far as the sky being purple...there actually is quite a bit of violet and indigo refracted by the particles in the atmosphere, but our eyes are more sensitive to blue. So that's what we see. (Full disclosure: I did a little research years ago to answer my eldest daughters question about it. *lol*)


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

trekker said:


> Huh?


He's saying that the glass will not overflow as the ice melts. Its...you know...science...


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

You’re all wrong...it’s all of these deep draft bay boats in the water. More and more every day.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Vertigo said:


> The problem with the "ice in a glass" analogy is that much of the polar ice caps are not floating in water, but sitting on bedrock. Let's not do stupid science as an argument against biased science.


True. 

I just chuckle at the "huh?" response rather than the legit counter point that you offer. 

There's too much "huh?" out there from people following dogma. Why? Because they've been told science is settled and now follow dogma instead of thinking critically...


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

GG34 said:


> Well, my boat runs on unicorn farts and the sky is purple.


I blame those dirty two stroke motors. We must regulate them out of existence.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

Numbers don't lie. The height of conceit and vanity would be thinking emotion is stronger than math.

Earlier you suggested sample sizes were too small. As a grad of Georgia Tech, i am suprised that you wouldn't know that sophisticated prediction models account for sample size.


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

Unicorn farts actually put ozone back and increase the polar I've caps thus reducing water levels. It should be mandatory.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

trekker said:


> Numbers don't lie. *The height of conceit and vanity would be thinking emotion is stronger than math.*
> 
> Earlier you suggested sample sizes were too small. As a grad of Georgia Tech, i am suprised that you wouldn't know that sophisticated prediction models account for sample size.


I'll acknowledge that prediction models account for sample size. But then I'll also stress that they are "models" and that models are rarely static...kinda like the environment. We tweak and adjust them as we learn more. Which is why we need to continue investigating and learning more. (Goes back to the settled science thing...)

I absolutely love the text that I bolded above. I may use it in the future. I wish our liberal friends believed that. They don't as is evidenced in the current election. Otherwise they'd acknowledge the amazing combination of GDP, unemployment, and wage metrics we're seeing right now. Instead they're pushing mobs and resistance instead of jobs and results.

My new platform:
Jobs > Mobs
Results > Resistance
Evidence > Emotion


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

You guys give the human race way too much credit.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

crboggs said:


> I'll acknowledge that prediction models account for sample size. But then I'll also stress that they are "models" and that models are rarely static...kinda like the environment. We tweak and adjust them as we learn more. Which is why we need to continue investigating and learning more. (Goes back to the settled science thing...)
> 
> I absolutely love the text that I bolded above. I may use it in the future. I wish our liberal friends believed that. They don't as is evidenced in the current election. Otherwise they'd acknowledge the amazing combination of GDP, unemployment, and wage metrics we're seeing right now. Instead they're pushing mobs and resistance instead of jobs and results.
> 
> ...



Think for yourself Bro. The liberal conservative war is no good for anybody


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

When the left is either defeated or turned into an also ran... the rest of us will be just fine... I don’t think John Kennedy or Harry Truman would have much in common with them at all... and I have nothing but admiration for both of them for the great courage they each showed under great adversity.

By the way I have never been a Republican either.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

trekker said:


> Think for yourself Bro. The liberal conservative war is no good for anybody


Always do. Have been for nearly 48 years. I'm not a "joiner" and never will be.

And I agree...identity politics and class warfare benefits noone. We all rise together. 

So lets not vote to stop the economic progress currently benefiting every American...


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## dranrab (Oct 9, 2016)

Since this has gone full blown political, I'll make a comment about the economy. I measure the economy by the bottom line. Let's round it off to $23,000,000,000,000.00 by the end of next year, without so much as a slight movement in the direction of a balanced budget. Our economy sucks. We are screwed. Maybe we can trade CA to China to pay off the debt. CA wants to be communist anyway. Hell, I bet China would even build a wall to keep us out.


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## Fritz (Jan 17, 2017)

I have much to say on this topic, but crboggs has hit most of the high points and done a really great job at it. Kudos man!

I would add one point, while I think most of the climate scare crap is fake science and far more harm then good will come from any policy that attempts to ‘fix’ our climate, I’m a big fan of alternate (green?) energy. I would love to look back in a few decades and see the Middle East as a useless desert and tell our kids stories of the old days when we used to fuel the world with hydrocarbons... and they would say “that sounds crazy.”


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## Fritz (Jan 17, 2017)

dranrab said:


> Since this has gone full blown political, I'll make a comment about the economy. I measure the economy by the bottom line. Let's round it off to $23,000,000,000,000.00 by the end of next year, without so much as a slight movement in the direction of a balanced budget. Our economy sucks. We are screwed. Maybe we can trade CA to China to pay off the debt. CA wants to be communist anyway. Hell, I bet China would even build a wall to keep us out.



Like I said in the beginning, we have some serious problems that no one wants to talk about. The destabilizing potential of some of them are so terrible to contemplate that we run to the relative safety of make believe problems. Distractions. Hobgoblins!


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

On the first Earth Day in 1971, newspaper headlines predicted the coming of a new Ice Age. There are studies now that show the earth has been cooling for the last eleven years. I don't want an Ice Age that will interfere with my fishing so I've been driving my Suburban and boats more lately. It doesn't seem to be helping.


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## paulrad (May 10, 2016)

lemaymiami said:


> I find it interesting that with the slow decline of organized religion, we begin to see folks that appear to worship "science" without being sufficiently educated on whatever topic is involved to be able to know for certain whether the "science" involved is actually correct, reliable, and whether someone or some organization might just have their thumb on the scales.... If you look closely at those organizations that rabidly tout science as the justification for their agendas you also start hearing about "social justice" and other ideas that are little more than favoring one group - at the expense of others....


Excellent post! In fact it's so good, that if Florida maga's tomorrow, I'm going to book a trip with lemay just to celebrate! And I'll define "maga" as a Desantis win.

I agree. "Science" has become just another religion. You can tell it's a religion to them because of how hacked off they get when anyone questions their faith. Here's the new version of the "scientific method":
1. Obtain funding.
2. Determine what your funders want to hear.
3. Build a model that will take a bunch of numbers and spit out whatever you decided in step 2.
4. Profit.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

I fear we may have to bury the Scientific Method in a plot next to Journalism and Due Process at some point...


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

paulrad said:


> Excellent post! In fact it's so good, that if Florida maga's tomorrow, I'm going to book a trip with lemay just to celebrate! And I'll define "maga" as a Desantis win.
> 
> I agree. "Science" has become just another religion. You can tell it's a religion to them because of how hacked off they get when anyone questions their faith. Here's the new version of the "scientific method":
> 1. Obtain funding.
> ...


Can you provide a valid example ?


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## brianBFD (Oct 25, 2017)

Since all of those whales have been killed, the FL algae and red tides along with overfishing in general having that many fish taken out of the water should make it lower all over the planet.....


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

trekker said:


> Can you provide a valid example ?


https://www.nas.org/articles/Estimated_40_Percent_of_Scientists_Doubt_Manmade_Global_Warming

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1060047798

https://www.independent.co.uk/envir...ll-bbc-newsnight-global-warming-a8575131.html


Need more?


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## Fritz (Jan 17, 2017)

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines." -Dr. Angell, 20yr editor NEJM

The world of healthcare/nutrition suffers the same rotten problem, pseudoscience is not limited to just one discipline. Follow the money!


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

FlyBy said:


> https://www.nas.org/articles/Estimated_40_Percent_of_Scientists_Doubt_Manmade_Global_Warming
> 
> https://www.eenews.net/stories/1060047798
> 
> ...


Looking for examples of those who follow your "new version of the scientific method". The lying, for profit scientist. I didnt ask for an example of doubters of greenhouse gas causation.

I did have to chuckle at your first example though. He also doubts the health risks of smoking.


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

It isn't about the deniers but how they are treated as heretics. Because it IS a religion to some.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Definitely time to end the FEMA program. Pure socialist welfare for the willfully ignorant.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2018)

camp said:


> Definitely time to end the FEMA program. Pure socialist welfare for the willfully ignorant.


I agree!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> I agree!


Impressive. How about the national flood insurance program?


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2018)

I don’t think so! I believe in fema but on in say a mass casualty or emergency situation, not for property loss! That’s what insurance is for, but you need a proper policy so no penny pinchen!


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2018)

At the same time, if the givernment is going to dictate how we build our homes, charge for inspections, perform inspections, sign off on them, then maybe they should be backing up all the lip service about how it is all for our own safety!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> I don’t think so! I believe in fema but on in say a mass casualty or emergency situation, not for property loss! That’s what insurance is for, but you need a proper policy so no penny pinchen!


Sorry dude 44 states in this union will never suffer the effects of a hurricane. A fresh water river flood is nothing compared to a storm surge/Harvey event. A few coastal states are being hugely subsidized by people you despise. You guys are completely DEPENDENT upon people who you will never help. And yet y'all will not admit that there is a problem and it can be mitigated.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> At the same time, if the givernment is going to dictate how we build our homes, charge for inspections, perform inspections, sign off on them, then maybe they should be backing up all the lip service about how it is all for our own safety!


The zoning and building codes are state/Florida codes and anyone who has seen pictures of Mexico Beach or Big Pine Key will have to admit that they work. Expensive yes but cheap when you are in the cross hairs. This is one of the few responsible moves the state of Florida has enacted in recent years. As to the expense...this fee for everything stuff is how republicans have paid for the privilege of not having an income tax. Very Regressive and the lower the net worth the greater the pain.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2018)

camp said:


> Sorry dude 44 states in this union will never suffer the effects of a hurricane. A fresh water river flood is nothing compared to a storm surge/Harvey event. A few coastal states are being hugely subsidized by people you despise. You guys are completely DEPENDENT upon people who you will never help. And yet y'all will not admit that there is a problem and it can be mitigated.


Sorry DUDE, no body subsidizes this DUDE! Most of the people recieving aid also have homes in those other states! I depend only on my lord and savior and ask for nothing from no one!
Do away with fema, do away with Slowbama care, do away with wic, do away with welfare, stop telling me I have to purchase water from the government for my safety because we all know that worked great for Flint, and stop allowing teachers and professors to teach and spew their own political views unto our children and youth of America!


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Of course FEMA does nothing about earthquakes, tornados, forest fires, drought and other emergency situations (sarcasm for the slow minded). River flooding can be far more devastating than storm surge because it lasts days or weeks and covers vast watersheds. Storm surge is localized, here for an hour our two then gone. There are folks living in areas that have had no flooding or storm damage for 100's of years and yet have suffered extreme damage from recent events. Are these people "willfully ignorant"? 

Interesting fact: Once FEMA assists a homeowner who has suffered flood damage, FEMA requires purchase of adequate flood insurance.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2018)

It’s not just republicans dude! It’s the whole lot of the weaseling bastards! Again, the whole building code thing, not many places gonna survive a 12’ wall of water man!


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2018)

Vertigo said:


> Of course FEMA does nothing about earthquakes, tornados, forest fires, drought and other emergency situations (sarcasm for the slow minded). River flooding can be far more devastating than storm surge because it lasts days or weeks and covers vast watersheds. Storm surge is localized, here for an hour our two then gone. There are folks living in areas that have had no flooding or storm damage for 100's of years and yet have suffered extreme damage from recent events. Are these people "willfully ignorant"?
> 
> Interesting fact: Once FEMA assists a homeowner who has suffered flood damage, FEMA requires purchase of adequate flood insurance.


Well said! Thank you! People tend to forget about all other natural disasters when it is convenient to do so!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Vertigo said:


> Of course FEMA does nothing about earthquakes, tornados, forest fires, drought and other emergency situations (sarcasm for the slow minded). River flooding can be far more devastating than storm surge because it lasts days or weeks and covers vast watersheds. Storm surge is localized, here for an hour our two then gone. There are folks living in areas that have had no flooding or storm damage for 100's of years and yet have suffered extreme damage from recent events. Are these people "willfully ignorant"?
> 
> Interesting fact: Once FEMA assists a homeowner who has suffered flood damage, FEMA requires purchase of adequate flood insurance.


Gee Vertigo...it wasn't my intention to imply that you were unable to protect your home and family without the help of a bunch of dim minded socialists. 

Thank you for mentioning that catastrophic events have visited people who have not seen these events in hundreds of years. Are they willfully ignorant? No just those who have built in the last 15 years. North Carolina has been hit with 2 1000 year floods in 3 years...you tell me the world is changing rapidly...or you are willfully ignorant.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> Well said! Thank you! People tend to forget about all other natural disasters when it is convenient to do so!


Nope...your comparing hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars with BILLIONS!......pure socialism LOL


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2018)

I’m not compairing a thing! I don’t need or want any givernment assistance! PS, I’m not sitting here telling you all I think is wrong with MN so it would be apprieciated if you’d stop with all your bs about my great state that several generations of my family have called home! Simply put, if ya don’t like my state then stay the hell out! Nothing more, nothing less!


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Camp, get the facts straight.
Since 1953 FEMA has declared 3728 disasters. Here's the breakdown:
Fire - 1054 disasters
Severe storm (not hurricane) - 923 
Flood - 786
Hurricane - 341
Tornado -164
Snow - 162
Ice storm - 62
Typhoon -55
Drought -46
Earthquake -29
miscellaneous others make up the rest.

Florida has had 13 floods, compared to Missouri with 22, Iowa with 27, Minnesota with 24. Natural disasters strike everywhere, and no one state is underwriting any other.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> I’m not compairing a thing! I don’t need or want any givernment assistance! PS, I’m not sitting here telling you all I think is wrong with MN so it would be apprieciated if you’d stop with all your bs about my great state that several generations of my family have called home! Simply put, if ya don’t like my state then stay the hell out! Nothing more, nothing less!


Never accused you(personally) of wanting gov't. assistance. I did say Fema and US flood insurance was socialist...this is obvious. Never said I didn't love Florida because I do. Never said we should actually end FEMA or Flood Insurance but used it as an argument that people should be responsible for the real risks they face as the climate changes. If certain states refuse to accept the reality of climate change than these socialist programs must end and these states must insure themselves. Trust me Florida is getting a sweet deal. Lucky for all of us I am the only one advocating for this.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Vertigo said:


> Camp, get the facts straight.
> Since 1953 FEMA has declared 3728 disasters. Here's the breakdown:
> Fire - 1054 disasters
> Severe storm (not hurricane) - 923
> ...


MONEY...just MONEY...that is what insurance deals in. Money


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

camp said:


> Never accused you(personally) of wanting gov't. assistance. I did say Fema and US flood insurance was socialist...this is obvious. Never said I didn't love Florida because I do. Never said we should actually end FEMA or Flood Insurance but used it as an argument that people should be responsible for the real risks they face as the climate changes. If certain states refuse to accept the reality of climate change than these socialist programs must end and these states must insure themselves. Trust me Florida is getting a sweet deal. Lucky for all of us I am the only one advocating for this.


No, you are not the only citizen advocating halting or reducing federally subsidized flood insurance in 100 year flood plains.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

What the hell are you guys arguing about?


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2018)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> What the hell are you guys arguing about?


Sorry, love my state, my God, and my country! Felt like my home was under attack, I’m a fighter!


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

This thing has slowly decayed about 2.5 days ago and now is qualified for the "Off Tropic" forum......please?


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

FlyBy said:


> It isn't about the deniers but how they are treated as heretics.


/Thread


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Everything becomes a political debate with guys copying and pasting ramblings they googled. Look at the dudes stolen Yeti thread, it’s headed there.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

camp said:


> You guys are completely DEPENDENT upon people who you will never help.


Kinda like all the people in the "fly over" states that the coastal elites (liberals) hate so much...you know the ones that run farms and feed everyone? The ones who liberals want to marginalize and control through the revocation of the electoral college?


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Like we need an excuse to ramble.
Let's just start posting homilies about life.
That'll add another 3 or 4 pages, no problem.

Life is tough, then you die.

There is no fair, there is no justice, you get what you get, deal with it.

Women are human beings who are not men.

Tanstaafl - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Planned obsolescence is not a business model.
Profits through repairs and replacement does not make quality job one.

Value engineering is just another way to justify higher prices from smaller quantities.


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## Cam (Apr 5, 2017)

crboggs said:


> Kinda like all the people in the "fly over" states that the coastal elites (liberals) hate so much...you know the ones that run farms and feed everyone? The ones who liberals want to marginalize and control through the revocation of the electoral college?


The general electoral college debate revolves around how some people's vote counts more than others. For example, Wyoming with less than 600k people gets the same number of votes as California with nearly 40 million people in the Senate. 

As added salt many low population states contribute less than they take in federal subsidies. So low population states get more per-person say in the federal government and many of these same states use more resources per-person.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Cam said:


> The general electoral college debate revolves around how some people's vote counts more than others. For example, Wyoming with less than 600k people gets the same number of votes as California with nearly 40 million people in the Senate.


You mix Senate seats and Electoral college votes in your response. 

But lets stick to comparing CA and WY for the sake of the argument.

*Electoral College*

California gets 55 electoral college votes. Wyoming, by contrast, gets 3. 
270 are needed to win a Presidential election. 55/270 = 20.3%, 3/270 = 1.1%
California has an approximate 20:1 louder voice / weighting in the Electoral College over Wyoming. California also controls 1/5 of the total electoral votes needed to win...
*House of Representatives*

California gets 53 seats in the House of Representatives. Wyoming's gets 1 seat. 
Congress is capped at ~435 seats...so...
California represents 12.1% of Congress
Wyoming represents 0.2% of Congress

CA has approx 60 times more influence than WY in the House of Representatives...
*Senate*

CA and WY both get two Senators because the Senate is expressly meant to be a check / balance on the popularly elected House. Senators weren't even elected positions when it was conceived...that came with the 17th Amendment in 1913.
The Founding Fathers were GENIUS in how they laid this stuff out. Our system of government has allowed the United States to ascend to be the preeminent nation in the world in under 200 years. That's freakin' amazing when you step back and acknowledge it.



Cam said:


> As added salt many low population states contribute less than they take in federal subsidies. So low population states get more per-person say in the federal government and many of these same states use more resources per-person.


I honestly don't have the inclination or energy to address this one. If forced to do so, I'd probably write something about makers vs takers, progressive taxes, wealth redistribution, and entitlement programs. Because you couldn't possibly be making a case for "fairness" in gov't spending or the use of our federal taxes to support those who don't work or who aren't here legally.


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## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

This thread has officially gone full retard.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

jimsmicro said:


> This thread has officially gone full retard.


NEVER go full retard...


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

jimsmicro said:


> This thread has officially gone full retard.


*lol* Yeah...arguing that Wyoming has as much political influence as California is indeed full retard. 

Can we still say retard?


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

crboggs said:


> You mix Senate seats and Electoral college votes in your response.
> 
> But lets stick to comparing CA and WY for the sake of the argument.
> 
> ...


I think we just became best friends.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

GG34 said:


> I think we just became best friends.


Don’t touch my drums!


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Don’t touch my drums!


Nice catch. Do you want to practice karate in the garage?


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Backwater said:


> Yeah, us humans are like a virus, spreading everywhere, consuming everything in our path and destroying everything in our wake. I just hope me, my family, kids and eventually the grand kids are all long gone before Mother Nature drops the hammer down on all of us, like a bucket full of termicide on a bed of termites!


Yeah, but if we can achieve interstellar space travel before that happens, we will be the literal cockroaches of the universe. They'll never get rid of us.


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## EvanHammer (Aug 14, 2015)

camp said:


> Sorry dude 44 states in this union will never suffer the effects of a hurricane. A fresh water river flood is nothing compared to a storm surge/Harvey event. A few coastal states are being hugely subsidized by people you despise. You guys are completely DEPENDENT upon people who you will never help. And yet y'all will not admit that there is a problem and it can be mitigated.


I get your point, just curious which 6 states you think are the only ones who will ever suffer from a hurricane?


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

EvanHammer said:


> I get your point, just curious which 6 states you think are the only ones who will ever suffer from a hurricane?


Evan, your math is faulty. You're thinking 50 states but Obama and camp know there are 58.


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

SomaliPirate said:


> Yeah, but if we can achieve interstellar space travel before that happens, we will be the literal cockroaches of the universe. They'll never get rid of us.


We'll make great pets...........


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

FlyBy said:


> Evan, your math is faulty. You're thinking 50 states but Obama and camp know there are 58.


we call it "truthful hyperbole" per the Golden Shower in "the art of the deal"


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## Edfish (Jan 4, 2013)

This thread was a bummer to read through for me. I'm a scientist and study fish, fisheries, and aquaculture. Sometimes that involves climate, more often it doesn't explicitly. Almost all the folks I work with want better outcomes for fisheries, and that specifically includes angler satisfaction, local economic impact, and sustainable populations. I'm sure there may be some scientists with agendas, but most of the people I work with take really seriously the idea of not advocating for one thing or another. My job is to suggest what's likely or unlikely to happen if management decides to do a thing (like stocking, artificial reefs, habitat restoration, changed harvest regs, water treatment, etc.)--*not* to say what _should_ happen. That's the job of public and mgmt. There's a bunch that folks like me can do better, especially in terms of making the science and data available to everyone. A bunch of us are aware of that and are working on it.

I get that it's easy to group all scientists together, same as lots of folks rip on lawyers for lacking scruples, and for sure there's gonna be people in this or that profession who aren't doing it right. But a bunch of us, like me, worked really hard to try to get the skills to do this work specifically because we wanted to make things better when they could be. And a bunch of us are putting in a ton of unpaid hours to make sure there's good information so that the folks making decisions have a better idea of what they're choosing between.


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## Edfish (Jan 4, 2013)

and please remember, a lot of the predictions for a changing climate, especially for this part of the world, focus on increased variance/variability as having the most noticeable consequences. My mom gets on my case for this too whenever it's cold like "where is your climate change now?". Increased variability in rainfall and temperature swings is what I worry about more and more, especially the former with the water quality and quantity issues. Obviously weather has always been varying, but increases in the variance are expensive to plan for, maybe more expensive not to plan for.


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

Where did the wheels come off .........


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2018)

Edfish said:


> This thread was a bummer to read through for me. I'm a scientist and study fish, fisheries, and aquaculture. Sometimes that involves climate, more often it doesn't explicitly. Almost all the folks I work with want better outcomes for fisheries, and that specifically includes angler satisfaction, local economic impact, and sustainable populations. I'm sure there may be some scientists with agendas, but most of the people I work with take really seriously the idea of not advocating for one thing or another. My job is to suggest what's likely or unlikely to happen if management decides to do a thing (like stocking, artificial reefs, habitat restoration, changed harvest regs, water treatment, etc.)--*not* to say what _should_ happen. That's the job of public and mgmt. There's a bunch that folks like me can do better, especially in terms of making the science and data available to everyone. A bunch of us are aware of that and are working on it.
> 
> I get that it's easy to group all scientists together, same as lots of folks rip on lawyers for lacking scruples, and for sure there's gonna be people in this or that profession who aren't doing it right. But a bunch of us, like me, worked really hard to try to get the skills to do this work specifically because we wanted to make things better when they could be. And a bunch of us are putting in a ton of unpaid hours to make sure there's good information so that the folks making decisions have a better idea of what they're choosing between.


I will agreee with you that most scientist want the outcome of their research to be true and real. Unfortunately for the general public it is easier to see an add on tv or the www and simply believe it to be truth. If state and federal government ran similar adds to monsanto and mosaic they will clearly see the differences. These large privately funded organized science adds and articles tend to lean hard one direction or the other. I think that most people are just too lazy to do any proper research on a subject themselves and simply believe what they see and here on tv, radio, & the www.


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## Edfish (Jan 4, 2013)

Boatbrains said:


> I will agreee with you that most scientist want the outcome of their research to be true and real. Unfortunately for the general public it is easier to see an add on tv or the www and simply believe it to be truth. If state and federal government ran similar adds to monsanto and mosaic they will clearly see the differences. These large privately funded organized science adds and articles tend to lean hard one direction or the other. I think that most people are just too lazy to do any proper research on a subject themselves and simply believe what they see and here on tv, radio, & the www.



Man, I agree with a bunch of that. Scientists can definitely get work published that has an agenda. While almost every journal where we publish in requires us to sign a bunch of conflict of interest forms and declare which if any institutions funded that or other work, (a) it's not easy to access those publications all the time (b) they often suck to read, even if you like that stuff, and (c) we're all busy and some of us, self included, have a touch of the lazy/tired/whatever at times.

At the heart of this issue, at least for me, is a real problem. I get that it's tough for my research to compete with massive corp. advertising budgets. But also, I don't want to advertise or try to make my work seem "sexy"--that's the point, I just want the work to be good and objective. The issue is, just like you say, how do you get folks to care about it, especially when we get constantly bombarded by info? 


I don't have an answer for this yes. There's a bunch of great data available in FL from state, federal, and private sources that I think would be interesting and useful to folks caring about fish, fishing, & the environment. I and others are trying to build tools to make it easier for folks to see and easily digest. Depending on the funding sources, it's all of our data, and regardless of funding, it's all of our resources. We should get to know what's going on with them. When I launch a website to show some of it, I'll post here and let folks know. Feedback about what people most want to see would be helpful.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Not sure about sea levels but the bullshit is definitely getting deep...


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2018)

The Earth is flat bro. No such thing as GLOBAL warming. Its DISK warming, earth is a flat disk.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2018)

239GLADES said:


> The Earth is flat bro. No such thing as GLOBAL warming. Its DISK warming, earth is a flat disk.


I'd like to build on the Earth is flat fact. Also i'd like to extremely highlight that there is DISK WARMING, and that the sea level won't raise until you show my sister a good time.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2018)

Trollin, trollin, trollin...


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Ummmmm....trolling is for folks who don't want fish ketchin to interrupt their beer drinkin'.


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## dranrab (Oct 9, 2016)

Curiosity here. Where do the scientists think we should set Earth's thermostat since we control it? If we achieved all the greenhouse gas reduction goals, what year would we hit that ideal temp?


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## Fritz (Jan 17, 2017)

Mark Twain said “A lie will make it half way around the world before the truth can get it’s boots on.”

Oh look... of course all the major media (propaganda?) outlets ran the story as ‘fact’ first.

*Climate Scientists Admit To Major Math Error After Global Warming Study Debunked*

*https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...ath-error-after-global-warming-study-debunked*


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## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

Dude on internet finds article that confirms his bias and disbelief, uses it as gospel.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2018)

jimsmicro said:


> Dude on internet finds article that confirms his bias and disbelief, uses it as gospel.


Happens all the time on any issue from either side or perspective too!


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## Fritz (Jan 17, 2017)

jimsmicro said:


> Dude on internet finds article that confirms his bias and disbelief, uses it as gospel.


This is true. Confirmation bias is one of my great enemies.

I’m not asking for you to believe me, but begging you to think for yourselves!


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## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

But in this case literally thousands of studies all point to the same conclusion - that man's activities are rapidly contributing to global warming. Can you cherry pick some studies that may suggest otherwise? Sure. But you can go online and literally confirm any bias whatsoever if you want to, no matter how repugnant or incorrect. There's an ugly rejection of science going on right now. People are rejecting science that has bettered nearly every aspect of their life. From infant mortality to eradicating diseases with vaccines, there are groups of people on the internet who have been the benefactors of solid scientific breakthroughs, yet they are actively promoting agendas that reject science. They use cell phones that rely on satellites to tell us the world is flat, and they look stupid doing it.


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

jimsmicro said:


> But in this case literally thousands of studies all point to the same conclusion - that man's activities are rapidly contributing to global warming. Can you cherry pick some studies that may suggest otherwise? Sure. But you can go online and literally confirm any bias whatsoever if you want to, no matter how repugnant or incorrect. There's an ugly rejection of science going on right now. People are rejecting science that has bettered nearly every aspect of their life. From infant mortality to eradicating diseases with vaccines, there are groups of people on the internet who have been the benefactors of solid scientific breakthroughs, yet they are actively promoting agendas that reject science. They use cell phones that rely on satellites to tell us the world is flat, and they look stupid doing it.


Man is arrogant with science these days. The ancient Egyptians used to dropdrill holes in heads to relieve headaches. We used to use leaches to cure diseases. That was high science at the time. Science is a religion now. We've taken God completely out of the equation.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

Sea levels have risen and fallen long before humans ever arrived.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Amen... and climate however you view it (study till you're blue in the face...) has never been stable. It's always warming or cooling. Pretty arrogant to think that we're the only factor involved... or even the chief causative factor....


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

lemaymiami said:


> Amen... and climate however you view it (study till you're blue in the face...) has never been stable. It's always warming or cooling. Pretty arrogant to think that we're the only factor involved... or even the chief causative factor....


Capt - with all due respect - your statement is akin to saying: The level of water flowing south of Lake O has always gone up and down, pretty arrogant to think that we're the only factor involved... or even the chief causative factor...

I don't understand how any amateur thinks they know better than NASA: https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/


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## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

Huh, how bout that, atmospheric levels of carbon dixide skyrocketed at about the time of the industrial revolution.... more so than any time in the last 400k years. I'm sure it's just a coincidence though. We should just keep burning some more coal, obviously that will help things.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Just the clean coal though!


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2018)

jimsmicro said:


> Huh, how bout that, atmospheric levels of carbon dixide skyrocketed at about the time of the industrial revolution.... more so than any time in the last 400k years. I'm sure it's just a coincidence though. We should just keep burning some more coal, obviously that will help things.


Because we’ve been monitoring and recording atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide for 400yrs!


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

yobata said:


> Capt - with all due respect - your statement is akin to saying: The level of water flowing south of Lake O has always gone up and down, pretty arrogant to think that we're the only factor involved... or even the chief causative factor...
> 
> I don't understand how any amateur thinks they know better than NASA: https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/


I think I found where most of the particulates are coming from- US averages 14-21. I think.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Boatbrains said:


> Because we’ve been monitoring and recording atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide for 400yrs!


Hahahahah no human has seen live dinosaurs either so they must have never existed. Also, since you and I haven't been to space to see this blue orb, the Earth must be flat!


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2018)

yobata said:


> Hahahahah no human has seen live dinosaurs either so they must have never existed. Also, since you and I haven't been to space to see this blue orb, the Earth must be flat!


Don’t get me wrong here! I’m not saying our carbon footprint shouldn’t be reduced! I am saying that we need to do so with repect to the main sources at this point! We can’t keep regulating our own nation out of business while the rest of the world is just dumping and dumping! We also can’t just assume what the carbon levels in the atmosphere were 400k years ago and compare to that.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

yobata said:


> Hahahahah no human has seen live dinosaurs either so they must have never existed. Also, since you and I haven't been to space to see this blue orb, the Earth must be flat!


Dinos indeed. Why were the atmospheric CO2 levels 20 times higher than they are now during the Cambrian Period , yet global temperatures were not high?


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## Seymour fish (May 13, 2018)

FACT


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

EdK13 said:


> Dinos indeed. Why were the atmospheric CO2 levels 20 times higher than they are now during the Cambrian Period , yet global temperatures were not high?


Average global temp of modernity - 14*C
Average global temp of Cambrian period - 22*C

Also, caught the ole Indian River Slam this evening


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Edk13: My research reveals that temperatures during the Cambrian period averaged about 7 degrees C above modern temperatures and that sea level was 30 to 90 meters above present day. CO2 was about 16 times pre-industrial level.

Please state sources that indicate otherwise.


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

The Cambrian period was supposedly 541 million years ago. What observable science could possible prove surface temps? Can you even wrap your mind around 500+million years? It's ridiculous.

You do realize that evolution of the Earth and man is an unproven THEORY? Even Darwin doubted his theories.


----------



## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

Perhaps we should move on to projected subsidence in Florida attributable to aquifer draw down.


----------



## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

EdK13 said:


> Perhaps we should move on to projected subsidence in Florida attributable to aquifer draw down.


----------



## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

lemaymiami said:


> Amen... and climate however you view it (study till you're blue in the face...) has never been stable. It's always warming or cooling. Pretty arrogant to think that we're the only factor involved... or even the chief causative factor....


Sorry Bob, arrogance has nothing to do with a changing planet earth. The actions of people can destroy or alter all life on this planet.


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## MooreMiller (Sep 10, 2016)

I’m a big supporter of global warming. Maybe we can drown out some of these northerners that drive slow in the left lane.


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

My folks live in the triangle, near dook forest. Dook university forestry program has been flooding the area w/ co2 for years trying to figure out what will happen if global warming gets worse.Biggest change ive read about so far is explosion of poison oak. Go figure


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

Brett said:


> Ummmmm....trolling is for folks who don't want fish ketchin to interrupt their beer drinkin'.


Lol. Thats how i started !


----------



## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

Vertigo said:


> Edk13: My research reveals that temperatures during the Cambrian period averaged about 7 degrees C above modern temperatures and that sea level was 30 to 90 meters above present day. CO2 was about 16 times pre-industrial level.
> 
> Please state sources that indicate otherwise.


Jurassic Park


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

sjrobin said:


> Sorry Bob, arrogance has nothing to do with a changing planet earth. The actions of people can destroy or alter all life on this planet.


20 worst cities posted earlier seems like good places to start mitigating pollution.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

yobata said:


> Average global temp of modernity - 14*C
> Average global temp of Cambrian period - 22*C
> 
> Also, caught the ole Indian River Slam this evening


pics! (of the slam, not Cambrian period...unless you have pics of those crazy armored fish that grew to nine feet long)


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Cambrian period armor plated 12 footers
Why it seems like only yesterday.....


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

I think I'm actually thinking of Permian maybe? Cambrian was more intertebrates, no? Shit, I should have paid more attention in school.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

SomaliPirate said:


> pics! (of the slam, not Cambrian period...unless you have pics of those crazy armored fish that grew to nine feet long)


I was wading - there are some deep holes so the phone stayed in the truck... I know I know: pics or it didn't happen...


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

yobata said:


> I was wading - there are some deep holes so the phone stayed in the truck... I know I know: pics or it didn't happen...


No pics either, but I catfish slammed last sunday...hardhead AND a sail cat.


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

No pics ,ever , i promise it didnt happen!


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2018)

SomaliPirate said:


> No pics either, but I catfish slammed last sunday...hardhead AND a sail cat.


That’s sounds like a Crystal river slam!


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> That’s sounds like a Crystal river slam!


Nah, I didn't get the ladyfish!


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2018)

SomaliPirate said:


> Nah, I didn't get the ladyfish!


Toadfish count here too!


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## dranrab (Oct 9, 2016)

yobata said:


> Capt - with all due respect - your statement is akin to saying: The level of water flowing south of Lake O has always gone up and down, pretty arrogant to think that we're the only factor involved... or even the chief causative factor...
> 
> I don't understand how any amateur thinks they know better than NASA: https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/


What year was it that the rapid climb started? It's hard to tell from the timeline, but it most assuredly started well before 1950. It started its rise from near historic lows and it started well before the industrial revolution. What caused it to start rising then. And if it was rising at that rate, what was going to reverse it and stave off the earth cooling period scientists tell us we were going to be going through? These should be simple, non-conflicting answers if the science is "settled"


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

EdK13: The diagram you posted shows temperatures during the Cambrian Period to average about 25 degrees Centigrade. The global average for the last century is about 12 degrees Centigrade. What's your point? 

BTW, there's about 377,000,000 years between the end of the Cambrian and start of Jurassic.


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

So, should we take the plastic bag or the paper bag?


----------



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

The Arctic Ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from the Consulate at Bergen, Norway.


Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard of temperatures in the Arctic zone.


Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes.


Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm.


Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and

stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared.


Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic,

while vast shoals of herring and smelts which have never before

ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds.


Within a few years it is predicted that due to the ice melt the sea

will rise and make most coast cities uninhabitable.


*I must apologize. I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2* *, 1922, as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post 96 years ago. This must have been caused by the Model* *T Ford's emissions or possibly from horse and cattle farts.*


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

Vertigo said:


> The Arctic Ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from the Consulate at Bergen, Norway.
> 
> 
> Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard of temperatures in the Arctic zone.
> ...


Fishermen and seal hunters ?


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Hey, I just quote the news, I don't write it.


----------



## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

Can we get help from d man : al gore? My hero.....


----------



## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Can we get help from d man : al gore


I am printing carbon credits as I write...millions comin' my way


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

Light bulb!!!!!!.....don't have to worry no more what the draft is on a chittum or hellsbay.....yeah buddy!


----------



## Guest (Dec 7, 2018)

topnative2 said:


> Light bulb!!!!!!.....don't have to worry no more what the draft is on a chittum or hellsbay.....yeah buddy!


Only if you plan on fishen Ozello still, everywhere else will have plenty of water!


----------



## Cam (Apr 5, 2017)

Ars did a good job on a sea level rise video:


----------



## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

yobata said:


>


Is that al gore?


----------



## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Pangea seems like just yesterday...


----------



## MooreMiller (Sep 10, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> Only if you plan on fishen Ozello still, everywhere else will have plenty of water!


A little off topic but a gentleman took his side by side from his house on the trail 3/4 of the way down fish creek one winter.


----------



## Guest (Dec 9, 2018)

MooreMiller said:


> A little off topic but a gentleman took his side by side from his house on the trail 3/4 of the way down fish creek one winter.


Doable, but I wouldn’t want to be the 2nd owner of that side by side!


----------



## Gvillewill (Feb 20, 2016)

trekker said:


> Im not wanting to start another political debate cause, at it's root, this really isn't a political issue but to say the science isn't settled is laughable. Math doesn't lie and the current "cycle" correlates with the industrial revolution and resulting release of carbon to the point that it is a mathematical certainty that we are causing the sudden spike in temps.
> 
> It really is a shame that it has become partusan and normally reasoned people are convinced to not only refuse science, but also math.


You do know that Lief Erickson and his boys established settlements on the coasts of Greenland and actually grew row crops there long before the Industrial Revolution? Nobody lives there today, why?, cuz it's too damn cold. As the glaciers in Europe melt, they reveal ancient forests, and silver mines that had to be abandoned because the glacier was advancing. The Romans used to grow grapes in England and it is only now that they can begin to grow them there again.


jimsmicro said:


> I'm not going to mince words here. Climate change is real and exacerbated by man's actions. If you don't believe it that's too bad but you might as well tell me you think the sky is purple or that your boat runs on unicorn farts. You literally do not believe in science, and that's a shame.


Can you please tell me what year in the Earth's climate history that the Climate was not changing? Then please tell me who proclaimed the early 20th century the optimal temperature? and by what authority?
Computer models are not "SCIENCE". At best they are tools and can only tell you what the guy who wrote the code tells it to tell you. All you AGW true believers have are computer models. And now since the Earth is not cooperating, and warming, you have changed verbiage and now are "climate change is bad" people.

Because of the Greenland and Antarctic ice cores and tree ring studies and deep ocean seabed cores, we know what the climate was like for 250,000 years, and when you overlay human history onto the climate history, one thing becomes crystal clear. When the earth is in a warming trend, humans tend to thrive, ( The Roman Warming Period, The Renaissance, The enlightenment) and when the earth is in a cooling period, humans are more miserable.( The Dark ages, The Plague). Now, in this warming period, we have the Green Revolution and technological advances that have brought more people out of poverty than in any other time in human history. The current "Warming Period" Started before the Industrial Revolution round about 1850, after what was known as the Little Ice Age.

Yes, Climate Change is real. It always has been. The real worry is that we are going back into another Solar Minimum period. That means more cold and more people moving to Florida with more pressure on our local ecosystem.


----------



## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Gvillewill said:


> You do know that Lief Erickson and his boys established settlements on the coasts of Greenland and actually grew row crops there long before the Industrial Revolution? Nobody lives there today, why?, cuz it's too damn cold. As the glaciers in Europe melt, they reveal ancient forests, and silver mines that had to be abandoned because the glacier was advancing. The Romans used to grow grapes in England and it is only now that they can begin to grow them there again.
> 
> Can you please tell me what year in the Earth's climate history that the Climate was not changing? Then please tell me who proclaimed the early 20th century the optimal temperature? and by what authority?
> Computer models are not "SCIENCE". At best they are tools and can only tell you what the guy who wrote the code tells it to tell you. All you AGW true believers have are computer models. And now since the Earth is not cooperating, and warming, you have changed verbiage and now are "climate change is bad" people.
> ...


Yes, extreme climate change as a result of a warming planet is real, but this rate of change is unprecedented. Why? Seven and a half billion more people on the planet earth and associated impacts including massive continuous doses of CO2 to our atmosphere from the burning of fossil fuels that began a step change about a hundred years ago. Humans thrive in a predictable, steady state climate, but even our advanced civilization will struggle with the exponentially extreme climate change we are experiencing now. This is not a political theory.


----------



## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

How do we get India and China on board w co2 emmisions. We are down 30%+on p plant emmisions since natural gas powering more of them thanks to fracking. Parts of Southeast Asia are running out of trees due to charcoal mfg. , more folks boiling water prior to drinking
I saw a temp prediction map, Miami to be as warm Cancun , Atlanta as warm as Miami by 2050
& don’t get me started on the chemicals in our drinking water. WTH


----------



## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

State fish rob said:


> How do we get India and China on board w co2 emmisions. We are down 30%+on p plant emmisions since natural gas powering more of them thanks to fracking. Parts of Southeast Asia are running out of trees due to charcoal mfg. , more folks boiling water prior to drinking
> I saw a temp prediction map, Miami to be as warm Cancun , Atlanta as warm as Miami by 2050
> & don’t get me started on the chemicals in our drinking water. WTH


All good points. We and other more advanced countries will have to lead the way and set the example with our technology. A level carbon emissions playing field will be required through carbon tax credits and energy trading. Currently, about sixty percent of the planet's human produced CO2 is the result of energy generation, the largest component of which is coal.


----------



## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

Backwater said:


> So a hurricane is nothing more than a giant fractal algorithm of geometric mathematical equations?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where al gore when u need him!


----------



## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

Capnredfish said:


> Can we get back to beers, babes, boats and BBQ. It’s more entertaining while I perform my own environmental disaster. However I do like science.


Now ya talking


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Where al gore when u need him!


he's celebrating his 30 year internet birthday, though all of us computer nerds were online a decade before that. I wonder how he got all the credit for that?


----------



## Seymour fish (May 13, 2018)

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Where al gore when u need him!


ManBearPig


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

looks like....CO2 and warming on earth occurred way, way, back and CO2 was higher?????? wait and see


https://www.foxnews.com/science/pas...tists-find-evidence-several-million-years-old


----------



## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

*China scientists warn of global cooling trick up nature’s sleeve
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/sci...ists-warn-global-cooling-trick-natures-sleeve*


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## Cliff (Oct 13, 2016)

looks like....CO2 and warming on earth occurred way, way, back and CO2 was higher?????? wait and see

Actually I think the article says it was during a relatively brief period of time when CO2 was high, at a similar level as today, but also suggest it could be from the island rising over time.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

*The Supreme Court of British Columbia recently dismissed a defamation lawsuit by celebrity climate scientist Dr. Michael Mann against global warming skeptic climatologist Dr. Tim Ball.* Mann must pay the full legal costs to the defendant. The ruling is explosive because it means that Ball’s claim that Mann was a scientific fraudster is now supported by the court. https://www.zerohedge.com/health/climate-alarmist-sued-skeptic-defamation-and-lost


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't know about all the scientific lingo, so I put my trust in experts.

Since Obama just spent $15 million on an ocean front home I am positive the rise in sea levels is over.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

DuckNut said:


> I don't know about all the scientific lingo, so I put my trust in experts.
> 
> Since Obama just spent $15 million on an ocean front home I am positive the rise in sea levels is over.


Who’s this Obama?


----------



## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

DuckNut said:


> I don't know about all the scientific lingo, so I put my trust in experts.
> 
> Since Obama just spent $15 million on an ocean front home I am positive the rise in sea levels is over.


I hadn't seen that. He must not be too worried about it.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

trekker said:


> I hadn't seen that. He must not be too worried about it.


He’s married to a tranny so...


----------



## taffrail (Dec 23, 2018)

Real world experience: Early '70s I am stationed at McConnell AFB, Wichita, Kansas. Had a little 350 cc Honda I liked to ride. Would ride to a lake not too far out of town to enjoy the scenery and possibly a bit of fishing. It was hot, seriously hot. My jeans were hot, my jean shirt was hot, the bike was hot. Out of town a few miles came to a wheat field. Wheat was about grown but still green. Temperature dropped a good 10 degrees, maybe more. Felt so good I pulled off and parked for a while. Air was clean too. Fresh. If I remember correctly plants use CO2 and give off oxygen. Fresh green plants are not conducive to heat build up whereas asphalt might be. If those plants are grown trees, the effect might be multiplied. Lived in Canada in the late '70s. My brother-in-law and I would travel a good piece to fish some lakes he knew about. Deep in the woods. First trip of the year was as close to June 1st as we could get off work. In town the temperature was around 60 day time and 40 at night. In the woods the condensation from my breath froze on the tent above my head. One year the ice was not off the lake yet. Think about these two experiences a lot when people start talking about climate change. Pretty sure the climate was changing long before there was an industrial revolution.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

taffrail said:


> Real world experience: Early '70s I am stationed at McConnell AFB, Wichita, Kansas. Had a little 350 cc Honda I liked to ride. Would ride to a lake not too far out of town to enjoy the scenery and possibly a bit of fishing. It was hot, seriously hot. My jeans were hot, my jean shirt was hot, the bike was hot. Out of town a few miles came to a wheat field. Wheat was about grown but still green. Temperature dropped a good 10 degrees, maybe more. Felt so good I pulled off and parked for a while. Air was clean too. Fresh. If I remember correctly plants use CO2 and give off oxygen. Fresh green plants are not conducive to heat build up whereas asphalt might be. If those plants are grown trees, the effect might be multiplied. Lived in Canada in the late '70s. My brother-in-law and I would travel a good piece to fish some lakes he knew about. Deep in the woods. First trip of the year was as close to June 1st as we could get off work. In town the temperature was around 60 day time and 40 at night. In the woods the condensation from my breath froze on the tent above my head. One year the ice was not off the lake yet. Think about these two experiences a lot when people start talking about climate change. Pretty sure the climate was changing long before there was an industrial revolution.


Think about this...once upon a time the earth was a molten ball of lava. Somehow, something caused up to cool down about 2,800 degrees.

If you read real research about the climate and the real omitter of CO2 you will find it is the natural life cycle of the planet and man accounts for very little of the total CO2.


----------



## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

I heard yesterday that concrete curing was one of the bigger emitters of green house gases. Supposedly they’ve made adjustments in the process.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Listen to the whole clip, skip to 3:10 if you don’t want to hear the lady.
Self made billionaires don’t get there by buying in to these bullshit schemes.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Listen to the whole clip, skip to 3:10 if you don’t want to hear the lady.
> Self made billionaires don’t get there by buying in to these bullshit schemes.


Here’s the better version condensed and simplified for they crayon eaters...


----------



## paulrad (May 10, 2016)

Global warming is just another religion.
Atheism is just another religion.
"Science" is turning into just another religion.

People believe these things because they want to believe in something....anything... other than God. I'm glad heaven has a wall and a strict immigration policy.


----------



## Doublehaul (Oct 3, 2015)

paulrad said:


> Global warming is just another religion.
> Atheism is just another religion.
> "Science" is turning into just another religion.
> 
> People believe these things because they want to believe in something....anything... other than God. I'm glad heaven has a wall and a strict immigration policy.


People believe science because it is real. Fact based and measurable.


----------



## Doublehaul (Oct 3, 2015)

Doublehaul said:


> People believe science because it is real. Fact based and measurable.


You can believe in God and science, in fact they are definitely not mutually exclusive.


----------



## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Rapid climate change risks are too great to not change how energy is produced, how humans live, and how governments function.


----------



## paulrad (May 10, 2016)

Doublehaul said:


> People believe science because it is real. Fact based and measurable.


It used to be. Not so much today. All they do is make these computer models that spit out some "results" that prove whatever they want to prove. It's a joke.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-39054778


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Doublehaul said:


> People believe science because it is real. Fact based and measurable.


Engineering is real, science is bullshit. Black matter...


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

sjrobin said:


> Rapid climate change risks are too great to not change how energy is produced, how humans live, and how governments function.


Solar panels are definitely not the way.


----------



## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

I hope the irony of the fact that many of you are posting on the internet using global satellites, consumer electronics, and a whole host of things that science brought you to talk about how science isn't real. Go back to fishing with a stick and a vine, you don't get to have all the modern ammenities we all enjoy.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

jimsmicro said:


> I hope the irony of the fact that many of you are posting on the internet using global satellites, consumer electronics, and a whole host of things that science brought you to talk about how science isn't real. Go back to fishing with a stick and a vine, you don't get to have all the modern ammenities we all enjoy.


Not all science, just a lot of the new age nonsense that’s not tangible and totally based on hypothesis. Just as not all engineers can make what they put on paper work in the real world. 

Paulrad nailed it in post #194


----------



## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

I mean technically all science is based upon a hypothesis until a better hypothesis comes along. Even gravity is a hypothesis/theory. The problem with waiting until there's a better hypothesis regarding climate change is that it will be too damn late because the planet will be beyond repair. Realistically I've decided the whole planet is screwed and to a large extent because of a lot of these sorts of opinions within this thread. We are too ignorant to exist as a species.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

jimsmicro said:


> I mean technically all science is based upon a hypothesis until a better hypothesis comes along. Even gravity is a hypothesis/theory. The problem with waiting until there's a better hypothesis regarding climate change is that it will be too damn late because the planet will be beyond repair. Realistically I've decided the whole planet is screwed and to a large extent because of a lot of these sorts of opinions within this thread. We are too ignorant to exist as a species.


Despair salesman


----------



## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

Yeah you wouldn't want to limit consumption, recycle things, or transition the world to a more sustainable energy model for no reason right?


----------



## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

I absolutely believe in "science" and see not one bit of conflict between it and whatever "higher power" you choose to believe in. As always, in every way... it's what we actually do with the info that science of one sort or other provides... 

Any time we get compared to monkeys - the monkeys should complain... 

I could go on and on but here's something to consider... climate has never been stable but our lives are so short that we tend to think that it should be. According to geologists our planet has warmed and cooled so dramatically over time - at least seven times they have evidence for... that there have been million of years when life itself in any form might not have survived (at times too cold - at times too hot...)... Sea rising? and yet some of the most productive archeological sites for exploration - can be found in about 20 feet of water - worldwide.... These sites by the way have been dated since before written history... Now listen to Miami Beach - a town that was built on a swamp and needed a bunch of land filling to even be able to build on.... complaining about sea-level rise (with their hand out, of course...). When I first came to Florida in 1971 - parts of Miami Beach routinely had salt water in their streets during king tides every fall... but that was long before politicians finally found the answer to the saying... "Everbody complains about the weather - but no one ever does anything about it..." This is their answer, I guess...


Far as I'm concerned - global warming, sorry, climate change, sorry, whatever name will work... is a lot more about politics and money than anything else...

These days with the decline of organized religions around the world - people still have a need to believe in something.. but basing public policy on that ruthlessly manipulated need... not a very good idea to me...


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

jimsmicro said:


> Yeah you wouldn't want to limit consumption, recycle things, or transition the world to a more sustainable energy model for no reason right?


“I've decided the whole planet is screwed and to a large extent because of a lot of these sorts of opinions within this thread. We are too ignorant to exist as a species.”

You’ve already made your mind up so I guess do what you want. I’ll try my best to raise my son right and not like most of these little ungrateful assholes I see today walking into poles, tripping over curbs and driving through red lights because they are glued to a black screen. I read a lot and post quite a bit on here while killing time at work so don’t bring that up. We don’t know much about each other so try not to judge my intelligence or morals based on an internet forum. If you’ve read any of my other content you might realize I push a lot of these very topics such as respecting the fishery, habitat and overall trying to push some common sense which seems to be lacking today.


----------



## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

Old scientists have to die off before the next wave of scientists and their ideas get an honest chance. Too much protection of turf , too little open mindedness. Imagine that.... academia


----------



## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> “I've decided the whole planet is screwed and to a large extent because of a lot of these sorts of opinions within this thread. We are too ignorant to exist as a species.”
> 
> You’ve already made your mind up so I guess do what you want. I’ll try my best to raise my son right and not like most of these little ungrateful assholes I see today walking into poles, tripping over curbs and driving through red lights because they are glued to a black screen. I read a lot and post quite a bit on here while killing time at work so don’t bring that up. We don’t know much about each other so try not to judge my intelligence or morals based on an internet forum. If you’ve read any of my other content you might realize I push a lot of these very topics such as respecting the fishery, habitat and overall trying to push some common sense which seems to be lacking today.


We can certainly agree on respecting habitat and fisheries as well as common sense, but we will certainly have to agree to disagree on climate change. I firmly and steadfastly believe the climate is changing and it is mankind to blame. But that doesn't mean we can't be friends because we disagree about it.


----------



## Doublehaul (Oct 3, 2015)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Engineering is real, science is bullshit. Black matter...


OK


Smackdaddy53 said:


> Engineering is real, science is bullshit. Black matter...


Pretty sure Engineering is based on science, like physics and chemistry.


----------



## Doublehaul (Oct 3, 2015)

paulrad said:


> It used to be. Not so much today. All they do is make these computer models that spit out some "results" that prove whatever they want to prove. It's a joke.
> https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-39054778


Right, so when you don't like the map that the science produces you just draw in what you want to see with a sharpie.


----------



## Surffshr (Dec 28, 2017)

I hate to weigh in here after the pit bull thing...I’m an engineer and work with scientists. Engineers solve problems. Scientists hypothesize and work towards a further understanding. Scientists do this by asking “why” to every problem...engineers just go about solving that problem.

Topic in point. I do not ask ‘why’ about sea level rise, but I’m working to solve it for each project I’m responsible for.


----------



## Doublehaul (Oct 3, 2015)

Surffshr said:


> I hate to weigh in here after the pit bull thing...I’m an engineer and work with scientists. Engineers solve problems. Scientists hypothesize and work towards a further understanding. Scientists do this by asking “why” to every problem...engineers just go about solving that problem.
> 
> Topic in point. I do not ask ‘why’ about sea level rise, but I’m working to solve it for each project I’m responsible for.


Well said. I think the question here was about science and not necessarily scientists or how they do what they do but your point is well taken. So, when it is said that science is "BS" and engineering is great there is a bit of a disconnect. Physics, chemistry, biology, etc all form the foundation of the various fields of engineering - Civil, chemical, electrical, nuclear, biomedical.
Numbers, measurements, calculations all matter.


----------



## FSUDrew99 (Feb 3, 2015)

If someone hasn't posted it yet....

I'll leave this gem here:


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

FSUDrew99 said:


> If someone hasn't posted it yet....
> 
> I'll leave this gem here:


I post that yesterday but you can re-post


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

I bet a bunch of you also believe this guy too? Check his credentials.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

"global warming is a chinese hoax"


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

yobata said:


> "global warming is a chinese hoax"


So are RTIC coolers, but I like them.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

SomaliPirate said:


> So are RTIC coolers, but I like them.


My RTIC held 40lbs of ice for 10 days inside the house


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

yobata said:


> My RTIC held 40lbs of ice for 10 days inside the house


I mix block and cube ice in mine for hurricane prep. Kept stuff cool longer than my fridge during Irma.


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

He was on point years ago.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

jimsmicro said:


> I mean technically all science is based upon a hypothesis until a better hypothesis comes along. Even gravity is a hypothesis/theory. The problem with waiting until there's a better hypothesis regarding climate change is that it will be too damn late because the planet will be beyond repair. Realistically I've decided the whole planet is screwed and to a large extent because of a lot of these sorts of opinions within this thread. We are too ignorant to exist as a species.


Hypothesis are different than theories. Theories are a balanced thought process. Hypothesis are one sided created by the one trying to prove a point.

There are many climate experts who once pounded the drums to this hypothesis and now are leaving and standing up saying it is a hoax.

Alternative forms of energy are a wonderful concept except for the cost of the production and cost of consumption. There are many experts that all agree the cheapest form of electricity is nuclear. But there is a trove of people who don't want to allow for efficient production of power.

There is one politician touting this Green New Deal thing and I don't think there is anyone that has said this will work. In fact, there was an experiment where Bloomberg gave a grant to a town in Texas who agreed to try it and it has failed and the mayor (or someone within the town) made statements as to all of the reasons it will not work. They have cancelled the experiment.

I don't like pollution any more or less than anyone else, but I don't need expensive production rammed down my throat so my consumption pays for this cost. A case in point. Here in Tampa TECO has built 2 solar farms, one in Apollo Beach and the other in Wimauma. Several hundred acres of panels. People have tried to get TECO to disclose information about these including the cost to construct and cost per kWh. TECO has ignored all requests and blatent lay came out and said they will not furnish this information. If this was such a great project why would they not be willing to share their findings.

Someday someone will come up with a better solution than burning coal at a comparable cost. But that day is not today.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

I did a little study, frankly a piss ant study while deciding whether to attend grad school. It was awhile ago. Had ears from some big boys. One of the interesting things I garnered from a couple elder lads in the know is that to turn California green would cost 60 - 70 percent of global lithium supply. One state. And when it failed (batteries) in 20-25 years it would be industrial waste. Nearly as bad as waste from Diabolo Canyon. 

When unscientific models fail with hind sight they are garbage. All the IPCC models don't even operate in reverse with an answer key. And yet some retarded Swedish chick that does not even attend school is - what- hell I do not know. GW Jesus. Insane.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

DuckNut said:


> Hypothesis are different than theories. Theories are a balanced thought process. Hypothesis are one sided created by the one trying to prove a point.
> 
> There are many climate experts who once pounded the drums to this hypothesis and now are leaving and standing up saying it is a hoax.
> 
> ...


We drove by one of those solar fields last week. What a waste of materials.


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## paulrad (May 10, 2016)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I bet a bunch of you also believe this guy too? Check his credentials.


We used to have the technology to go to the moon, but my dog ate it! lol


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

paulrad said:


> We used to have the technology to go to the moon, but my dog ate it! lol


What a joke right? People can’t see the forest for the trees. You are the only person that even replied to that video clip. All the telemetry data from the moon landing was destroyed, lost or taped over. Sure it was. We never went to the moon the way they claimed we did if we went at all. The “moon rock” we gave to Holland ended up being petrified wood. Embarassing! Stanley Kubrick should film some of these skiffs floating in 3” of water with two biscuit headed dudes and a full load of gear, it would be more believable.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> What a joke right? People can’t see the forest for the trees. You are the only person that even replied to that video clip. All the telemetry data from the moon landing was destroyed, lost or taped over. Sure it was. We never went to the moon the way they claimed we did if we went at all. The “moon rock” we gave to Holland ended up being petrified wood. Embarassing! Stanley Kubrick should film some of these skiffs floating in 3” of water with two biscuit headed dudes and a full load of gear, it would be more believable.


A woooooo. Good thing the global warming convention will be held at Obamas new Martha's Vineyard spread that was supposed to be underwater 18 years ago. Soon.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> We drove by one of those solar fields last week. What a waste of materials.


The simple fact that they won't disclose the cost to build and the output costs speaks volumes. I can't wait, they will want an increase next year.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

paulrad said:


> We used to have the technology to go to the moon, but my dog ate it! lol


I cun bild a micruskiff that will flot on deh clouds.. z- Hah. That is some funny sheeit right that. Close second to using coke money to build a city on a sand bar. Hope its fake, its probably not though. That 12 national cumulative IQ points lost since 65' may yet prove costly. But It'll pay.


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## paulrad (May 10, 2016)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> The “moon rock” we gave to Holland ended up being petrified wood. Embarassing!


You could certainly be correct - an embarrassing mistake. But there are other explanations. Getting someone to buy into a lie gives you a certain power over them. The more absurd the lie, the more a person is forced to lay aside their brain in order to accept it. Once you can do that, then you've basically got complete control over that person.

Ingsoc!


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

Solar is the most expensive power there is to generate


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

My Mom actually used to work directly for a man named Von Braun (you know the guy who worked for the Nazis before we grabbed him up at the end of WW Twice and invited him home with us... the alternative was the Russians and all the smart folks did everything they could not to be grabbed up by them...). She was one of two administrative assistants for the Director of Marshal Space Flight (Von Braun...). 

I was a kid living on Redstone Arsenal (Army brat) when they were testing the motors for the Saturn five B (the big base rocket for moon shots...) in the mid-sixties... Just one motor on a test stand 14 or 15 miles away would light up the night and rattle your windows (and that base rocket had four of the things...).

I know all these years later there are a more than a few who repeat the lie that it was all a hoax but I can tell you that those working on the deal - were the real thing... and we could do it again, no problem.... if the country had the willpower. Instead the money will go to the big cities for programs that have never worked or accomplished much - except keeping political types in office...

The closest thing I ever had to a home town or a home state was Huntsville Alabama, where Redstone is... Great place to raise a family - but entirely too far from saltwater to suit me... 

NASA, the space program, and all of that are the reasons for many of the inventions we take for granted today. The folks involved in all of that were some of the best we had, period. My Mom is 96 this year and long, long retired from that world. I still head up that way when I can...


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

Al Gore we have non believers on dis site, please come n give a seminar on rising waters!!!


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## BassFlats (Nov 26, 2018)

Al Gore please fly in on a private jet and lecture us on greenhouse gasses.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)




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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

lemaymiami said:


> My Mom actually used to work directly for a man named Von Braun (you know the guy who worked for the Nazis before we grabbed him up at the end of WW Twice and invited him home with us... the alternative was the Russians and all the smart folks did everything they could not to be grabbed up by them...). She was one of two administrative assistants for the Director of Marshal Space Flight (Von Braun...).
> 
> I was a kid living on Redstone Arsenal (Army brat) when they were testing the motors for the Saturn five B (the big base rocket for moon shots...) in the mid-sixties... Just one motor on a test stand 14 or 15 miles away would light up the night and rattle your windows (and that base rocket had four of the things...).
> 
> ...


The money will go to the big cities? That is funny. If you look at the states that take more money from the federal goverment than they contribute, you'll find they are mostly conservative states with few, if any, large cities. Think Mississippi, Alabama, West Virginia, Arkansas, etc. 

Just trying to keep a little reality in the circle jerk.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

trekker said:


> The money will go to the big cities? That is funny. If you look at the states that take more money from the federal goverment than they contribute, you'll find they are mostly conservative states with few, if any, large cities. Think Mississippi, Alabama, West Virginia, Arkansas, etc.
> 
> Just trying to keep a little reality in the circle jerk.


NASA gets no funding


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

trekker said:


> The money will go to the big cities? That is funny. If you look at the states that take more money from the federal goverment than they contribute, you'll find they are mostly conservative states with few, if any, large cities. Think Mississippi, Alabama, West Virginia, Arkansas, etc.
> 
> Just trying to keep a little reality in the circle jerk.


Maybe next time around the yankees will let them go, you know,because the south takes so very, very much, per capita.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

I was only talking about the serious opposition to funding the space program years ago in Congress that pretty much shut them down in the eighties... 

Congress can always find money for projects that get them re-elected...


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

The GREATEST generation! Ever. Much respect.
We can still learn from these rare gems.

I don’t think folks will ever buy in & sacrifice in that way again. 
Would not happen in today’s world.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Another good read and some pragmatic reasoning from Judith Curry...

https://www.city-journal.org/global-warming#.XbGKGtFqQQM.email


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## jtf (Jan 16, 2014)

The past two trips to fish the Pamlico, we had to drive through two feet of water rushing in the streets of Oriental in rain storms. Good thing we were in the F250, the water was up to the bottom of the doors.

My father was a fighter and recon pilot, flew almost 100 missions in two wars. Just as he predicted, he laid down on his 95 birthday last fall and died at Salisbury, NC VA Hospital. I am indebted to the folks volunteering and working there!

I'll always remember the time he and I sat up late alone at home and watched the first rendezvous around the moon. He was intent and quiet and when I asked what might happen if the engines didn't fire, he got very upset with me and told me not to ever think such a thing. It took me years to realize that the astronauts and he were about the same age.

That was about 50 years ago before I understood how many times he was in the air alone or with a single wingman picking the way through the Brenner Pass or up the Rhine or Poe valleys at 3 am in the darkest time of day. I only learned these things recently, he rarely talked about his time in the air. Last fall, one sad evening, close to our last visit, he pointed to me and soberly said, "when I die, all this ends."

He told me he was aiming for Christmas, _but if not, _he would choose his birthday. So if you have a parent left or an aunt or uncle, give them a call sometime. A post card is only $.35 to mail, that's how they used to surprise us with a short note...just to say they were thinking of us.


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