# Advice Aluminum vs fiberglass, tunnel or keel canoe



## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

hey mates. Looking to get into a canoe for the nmz areas etc, along with some local canals. Will be used for fly fishing primarily. From what I have researched a tunnel hull may be best for stability but may not track as well. Also, have questions on square back vs conventional. At most I would toss a trolling motor for bass fishing but usually paddle and pole. Aluminum clearly more durable, but hull slap? Indian river canoes seem to be solid fiberglass - tunnel and 36 inch beam. The kingfisher looks awesome too. Any advice is appreciated


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

I was looking for an Indian River myself but was told they're no longer in production as the owner of the company passed away. But if you can find a used one they're great for your purposes. 

Otherwise just see if you can get a Gheenoe NMZ or the regular 15'4" Gheenoe. I'm looking at getting one for paddling local bayous with my son vs. a kayak and want added stability.


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## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

I love the gheenoe but I want to car top it and at 100 plus pounds that is too much of a pain in the arse. They don't make the Indian river any longer but plenty on Craigslist. I wonder if 12 ft or 14 is best?


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

I just bought a We-no-Nah a few weeks ago. The 14' Fisherman model. I'm a big fan so far.

Paddles quietly and easy to stand and cast in it. I may actually prefer it to my Cayo SUP.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

I have and Indian River flatback 14 without the tunnel if you plan on trying to stand and cast buy a tunnel. Or all your gear will be floating.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

This ----> https://www.oldtowncanoe.com/canoes/recreation/guide_160/ The Guide or Discovery 16ft+/-. Stable, tracks great, quiet, paddles easily, higher sides, holds lots of weight and gear!


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

I put another 9-10 hours on my canoe this weekend and I'm starting to like it significantly more than my SUP. The SUP may excel on a windy flat, but the canoe allows me to push up and through creeks and smaller cuts. And its a bit like paddling around in a stripping bucket making line management significantly easier.

View media item 1925


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## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

That looks great. I was reading articles with interviews from Steve Kanter (land captain), Chico Fernandez, and Borski that they all love fly fishing from their canoes and they all stand and pole from them. Chico fishes out of a merrimack - https://merrimackcanoes.com/
They are beautiful and hand crafted but upwards of 3k+. He says that he and another angler stand to fish no problem. Borski fishes out of 12 ft tunnel hull by indian river. I think wenonah 14 looks perfect- what material did you gets your in.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

I got one of the last Royalex "lay ups" canoes at a local shop. Supposed to be super tough...we'll see how it handles oyster bars. I like the Fisherman model because I can flip it around and paddle it "backwards" when I go solo. That allows me to stand and cast nearer to the middle where there is more beam. I can double haul the 6wt easily and reach out to points or fish in the 50-60' range without rocking too badly or feeling like I am tippy.

I also spend alot of time poling the canoe...I use an 8' Yak Attack "Park n Pole". Works fine...just long enough to push me along without being too bulky to stow in the floor of the canoe when its time to paddle.

I had a couple of stud reds cruise right past me on Sunday morning. Close enough that I could see scales, scars, etc. The canoe was quiet enough that I didn't spook them at all.

I'm still working on the transition from poling to casting. So far a mushroom anchor on a 3' tether dropped over the side does a good job of stopping me when I see fish and need to trade the push pole for the fly rod. Its MUCH easier to manage in the canoe than on the SUP.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

It depends on budget... I have a Wenonah Vagabond kevlar build and as a Solo sit down paddle craft is hard to beat, unlike my SUPs requires no fin and floats in spit, as far as standing I can stand and paddle or pole... but when a fish is sighted its not an easy or quiet stop, switch form paddle/pole to rod for casting... I have casted myself out more than once. It doe not flip is very stable but there is a very quick point of no return where you will be in the water.
Its very light, easy to load/unload and hump to/from the water. Pretty quiet on the water but does get blown around a bit more than an SUP or kayak due to its higher presense above the water.

I've also been through 3 or four other canoes (Mohayk and Indian River tandems) as well as kayaks. Had 3 Tandem canoes before and that Indian River Otter 12' square back with tunnel is the easiest to stand and paddle or pole as well as fish.. I don't fly fish but paddle and fish many days a year with Cordel Baum (BoneFishWhisperer) and he only fly fishes... also takes others flyfishing the flats.
If you plan to have trolling motor which I had on the Mohawk I'd recommend a squareback its much easier with the motor on the stern than hanging off the sie on a bracket. I think we rolled that Mohawk more than once because of the trolling motor hanging off the side. I feel that the square back is a little better for poling as well since you are standing closer to the rear of the canoe.
That Otter with tunnel is stable as a rock, weighs around 65-70 pounds, and its hard for me to keep up with Cordel in either my 38 pound 14' Vagabond or the 12'&13'6" sup's. I had both IR tunnel and non tunnel and liked the tunnel better. I'd probably still have the Otter if I did not have medical issues that kind of limit me to 40 pounds of humping.
The only drawback I can say is if you are the person in the bow your feet may get cramped sitting looking or standing forward... but I have been that person standing most of the day sighting and casting with Cordel poling in the back and pointing.


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## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

Thanks for the info. So the 12 ft otter is reasonable for two to fish it sounds like. It is a shame they dont make them anymore.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

The 12' is good, but like I said the person in the front's feet will get scrunched a bit in an all day adventure.
Not sure I've heard they don;t make them anymore.. I know Cordel beats the hell out of his and patches it up until its beyond repair. He drags it out of the pickup and across what ever is in the way at a launch site.

Here is a shot of his current one, loaded and ready to hed out.. notice the 3 fly rods loaded and ready to go... very easy to just lay them out.









Like I said its cost decision... $600 vs $2k


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Yup...I like being able to lay my rod out for easy access like this. The canoe is so much easier to organize than the SUP...

I cut a short length of pool noodle and used it to create a little "padded" area to lay my rods across. I also found that the neoprene reel cases hang nicely if you fold the flap over and make a nice fly holder / pouch within easy reach. (The best are older beat up 12wt cases since they are so big.)


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## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

I actually called Indian River Canoe as the website is still up. He said they haven't made any in 2 years however they plan on starting back next spring; he blamed the economy. I hear the 14 tunnel version is great also - it is a little lighter than the 12 actually - per the webpage. I found a couple on Craigslist but they are asking too much for a used canoe that had a new sticker price of 675.00. I follow some guide on instagram in 10k island area that has the 14ft tunnel and he stands on a yeti and poles/fished from the platform; amazing. This is the poor mans, lighter version of gheenoe. It suits me better since I can car top it. If money was not an option I would get the 14 fisherman by wenonah in carbon fiber -weighs 38 pounds.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

I haven't tried to stand on the Yeti inside the Fisherman yet...that might be pushing it. *lol*


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

The primary advantage of a canoe is portability. A 40# canoe is a hell of a lot more portable than just about anything else, including 90# canoes. I'd look for one of the Kevlar Fisherman models (they don't call them Fisherman for nothing). I've seen them used on Craigslist in the $600 range. They come up frequently, just two last month in central Florida.


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## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

If you see one, send me a PM. I got nothing around here at the moment.


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## fjmaverick (Sep 18, 2015)

Lake Placid NY
They make a nice canoe 
http://placidboatworks.com/

Lots of canoeing back home in upstate ny


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

mpl1978 said:


> hey mates. Looking to get into a canoe for the nmz areas etc, along with some local canals. Will be used for fly fishing primarily. From what I have researched a tunnel hull may be best for stability but may not track as well. Also, have questions on square back vs conventional. At most I would toss a trolling motor for bass fishing but usually paddle and pole. Aluminum clearly more durable, but hull slap? Indian river canoes seem to be solid fiberglass - tunnel and 36 inch beam. The kingfisher looks awesome too. Any advice is appreciated



old town makes a 15' roylex sport boat. much like a grumman but quieter...and a bit tippier. Set up for rowing or small motor, pretty easy to paddel. I think it would be ez to pole.


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## Canoeman (Jul 23, 2008)

I own an old Indian River which spends most of its time upside down on the lake bank at my daughter's house. I never use it anymore, but it is the easiest poling boat I've ever used for catching redfish on the flooded grass flats...slides thru like butter. I'm sure I caught more redfish from that boat than any boat i've ever owned. It's very stabile, I'm 70 years old and I have no trouble standing on the seat to pole it. It was powered by a 4hp Evinrude, which due to the hull flex, is about all the motor you would ever want to put on it. It doesn't paddle very well but it's a pleasure to pole. As far as length, buy the 14 or I think they might have made a 16 which would be even better.


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## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

I have a 13' sportspal s-13 square stern aluminium canoe. It is also at times called Meyer s-13. This is what I consider the Cadillac of the flats canoes.

It's around 50 lbs 38" wide hull but has 3" of foam bolted to the outside of the hull to create a extra rocker. Works similar to the ghennoe but I feel it's more stable since above the waterline. I pole the canoe from the rear with an angler up front or the middle by myself with no issue while standing on a cooler.

The interior has closed cell foam so it's not loud like a standard aluminum canoe. 

It has a 3/4" keel so it poles really well. With the addition of a homemade jackplate it runs gets up in 8-9" of water which is impressive in a motorized canoe. I also made push pole holders and pvc rod tubes that attach to the foam outriggers to store two rods fully protected.

I have used, been on, and built jack plates for the Indian river 14' tunnel and I feel the sportspal is a better canoe all around.

I bought it used but I have ran/poled it across oysters in Galveston, Tx, fished the lower laguna madre, ran rivers all over montana, and paddles many creeks in the Florida panhandle. I will get rid of my wife before this canoe( don't tell her).

The amount of fish and ducks that have been hauled over the side of it is impressive. It also once flew out of the truck bed at 50 mph and landed on its bottom after a 3 day duck hunting bender with very little scar's. Show me a fiberglass that would hold up to that.

Link
https://www.meyersboat.com/#/sportspal/models/S-13


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## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

Anyone familiar with canoes or mad river, if you wouldnt mind taking a look at the one below in my area and tell me if if is work rehabbing. It appears to be a mad river canoe and a relatively flat bottom and very little keel, so perhaps it has good stability. if i could snag it for cheap and slap some new paint, seat and gunnels, it may be nice. I have no idea how hard it is to get new gunnels however


https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/858209071021730


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Oh and for sure fiberglass/royalex/plastics over aluminum... aluminum is tuffer than nails but way to noisy for fishing. Even the kevlar/fiberglass Wenonah I have has the aluminum rails and thwarts and they are to noisy for me... wood rails is noce but requires maintenance stripping and seal/coating every couple years.
Note... Royalex is no longer made the one company that made the raw material stopped producing it.

Saw one on CL in Key largo $500.00
https://keys.craigslist.org/spo/d/indian-river-canoe/6230315704.html


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## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

Well, not sure if I bit off more than I can chew, but below is the mad river explorer 16ft in royalex that i picked up on CL for 100.00. Hull is in great shape, but needs new gunwales and a seat. I read it was a classic


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

I've owned a couple of Explorers, one in Royalex. The Royalex version is a little on the heavy side and not really stable enough to stand in and may also tend to "oilcan" when under way. These flaws aside, they are a desirable canoe and $100 is a good deal, even if the gunnels are crap. The replacement gunnel kit is about $400 from Mad River, but I've done a few gunnel replacements from scratch for about $50 total. You'll need a table saw and a router and a source of 18' lengths of ash, but it's not that big a project. You can usually repair and re-cane the seats for about $10. Don't waste money buying new seats unless they're really shot. When you get it done and cleaned up, the canoe could be worth more like $600/$700.


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## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

I was unsure about its ability as a stand and fly fish boat, but for 100.00 I figured at a minimum, I could rehab and either keep it as a family mover or sell it. I am going to try and make some gunwales from a synthetic wood this weekend. Give it a new paint job with some krylon fusion, a new sticker and she is good to go. I was probably too impatient on buying a canoe, but I was itching.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

I'd advise you not to waste time on the paint. It will lower the value and Royalex is very difficult to paint. I'd also stick to ash for gunnels. I don't think anything synthetic will last or even work very well. Gunnels need to be stiff to help the hull maintain shape. Here's a Mad River that I replaced gunnels and seats this fall.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/f...G8n2faZKM7MKNtd7jIBbO2DLpgeEk5=w2155-h1293-no


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

^^^^^^This is good advice^^^^^^^
The synthetic deck boards are much floppier than the wood equivalent. Unless you want to fork out the dough for carbon fiber, there aren't many materials that are stiffer per unit of mass than plain old wood. Ash is tough and bends cleanly. Cedar bends cleanly also and is more readily available. I've also seen cypress and redwood used. 

...and painting plastic is a frustrating endeavor.

Nate


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## Cliff (Oct 13, 2016)

I have an old town 14 ft guide and I love it. It has three seats and the middle seat is set to oar. The canoe can really fly when oaring, is stable and weighs 56 lbs. I have used it for over 10 years and it is beat from oysters but many times I prefer the canoe to my Fury.


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## BM_Barrelcooker (May 4, 2011)

I have a Kevlar wenonah fisherman. 
It is an awesome canoe. 

I also have a native tandem kayak that is super stable for stand up fly fishing. 

Both have their advantages. Both are great little boats.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

I love the Fisherman so far. The Royalex gets cut a bit from oysters so I'll likely put some skid plates on there or invest in some helicopter tape in the most abraded areas.


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## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

Anyone have any videos or how to's on DIY wood gunwales. I went to Home Depot and looked at a lot of options just to get an idea of what is there. Anything but pine seems way to expensive. They have some grade one YP pieces but i am not sure how thick - maybe 3/4 inch. The treated wood seems very, very heavy and not great quality. What is the most cost effective way to get this done. Also, does it matter if they are square vs. round. Seems like a pain in A** to round the edges


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Second growth pine does funky things as it dries (splits, corkscrews, fractures at knots, just plain looks ugly, etc.). I guess old growth pine was a different creature, but you and I will never see that stuff. Home Depot and Lowes have wood for framing house, building a fence and some oak and poplar hardwoods, nothing more. Go to a specialty wood shop that caters to cabinet makers and other such wood snobs (boat builders). You can find some clean cedar for a bit more than that crap pine, but less than the hardwoods. Ash is gonna cost you more because you are bidding against Louisville Slugger for the good stuff.

I'd start with 1.5x2" stock (should be 1.25x1.75" real dimensions). I'd put a 3/8" radius on all four edges and groove it 1.25" deep by down the center with a router bit just wide enough to accept the edges of the hull, then dry fit it to the hull. This is a "measure three times and cut once" moment. While it is dry fit, I'd pre-drill from the inside of the rail through the hull to the outside of the rail with a countersink bit every 12" along the rail. Once it is cut to fit, sand it smooth, stain it as you see fit and seal it with exterior polyurethane. Before final fit, lay a bead of clear silicone caulk down the groove. I wouldn't use 5200 because rails fracture all the time and you want to be able to get it back off with out too much cussing. The silicone just keeps it from rattling. Carefully hand tighten 7/8" stainless wood screws until flush with the interior face of the rail. DO NOT OVER-TIGHTEN THE SCREWS AND STRIP OUT THE SCREW HOLES. You will likely have to touch up the polyurethane afterward. Once done, I'd flip it and fill the seam between the rail and side with a fillet of clear silicone caulk. There should be a pre-existent breasthook and corner pieces to smooth the transitions into the corners. If not, you may have to get creative.

Nate


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Nate, good info!


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Do it right or don't do it at all. If you're replacing wooden gunnels, ash is the wood to use. The cost is insignificant relative to the labor involved and the quality of results you'll get. I'd recommend not even considering the job unless you have access to a good table saw and router and know how to use them. Don't use silicone, and oil is recommended instead of polyurethane. I get my ash at Triton Lumber in Homosassa. There are probably specialty lumber yards near the OP. Home Depot is NOT a lumber yard for serious woodworking or boat building. A rough sawn plank of ash, long enough and with enough wood to do the job will cost about $50. Finding ash in long enough strips pre-cut to size will be ridiculously expensive. That's why you need the table saw. If you don't have the tools, here's a kit option, but it's still pretty expensive.

http://www.shop.northwestcanoe.com/Ash-Gunwales-Knockdown-Kit-681007.htm

Here's Mad River's advice on replacing gunnels.

https://www.madrivercanoe.com/us/sites/default/files/WoodGunwaleInstallation.pdf


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Vertigo said:


> Do it right or don't do it at all.


Preach it!


Vertigo said:


> Here's Mad River's advice on replacing gunnels.


Ummm, there is a rail kit from the maker? Oh hell no! PAY FOR THE KIT! By the time you factor in the cost of materials, time hunting down the materials and time rigging it together on your own, the kit will be the same cost and take a quarter of the time. My "from scratch" idea above is for masochists that have a bunch of woodworking experience and tools and no better options.

Nate


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## Howard Cummings (Apr 8, 2016)

Canoeman said:


> I own an old Indian River which spends most of its time upside down on the lake bank at my daughter's house. I never use it anymore, but it is the easiest poling boat I've ever used for catching redfish on the flooded grass flats...slides thru like butter. I'm sure I caught more redfish from that boat than any boat i've ever owned. It's very stabile, I'm 70 years old and I have no trouble standing on the seat to pole it. It was powered by a 4hp Evinrude, which due to the hull flex, is about all the motor you would ever want to put on it. It doesn't paddle very well but it's a pleasure to pole. As far as length, buy the 14 or I think they might have made a 16 which would be even better.


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## Howard Cummings (Apr 8, 2016)

So Canoeman, I saw your recent photo at the end of "bragging spots" and should I assume that the boat is your Indian.. I have owned a few boats and am getting back to the basics. I spend too much time on boats not enuff time fishing..so I have owned Grumman sportboats and Gheenoes (classics) now have a 16 guide old town..need a square stern...Grumman, Old Town, Indian, who can decide...oh yea..I'm as old as you and I still prefer pole...


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## mpl1978 (Apr 14, 2016)

Fellas,

I picked up an indian river otter 12ft sq. stern tunnel hull this weekend that was on CL for 200.00. I took it out for a run yesterday and it one stable craft for a canoe. My 6 year old was able to stand in the front no problemo. I could easily stand and fly fish all day. Just as Krash said however, the front is a little uncomfortable to sit and paddle. I am replacing the gunwales on the mad river, but this is a different animal altogether. I am looking for suggestions on mods to make for a poling platform - cooler? I think Cordell (aka bonefish whisperer) uses some kind of stool? I think Borski used wood over the gunnels. Any mods to help to assist in turning this craft into a fly fishing machine would be appreciated. What size push pole?


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> This ----> https://www.oldtowncanoe.com/canoes/recreation/guide_160/ The Guide or Discovery 16ft+/-. Stable, tracks great, quiet, paddles easily, higher sides, holds lots of weight and gear!


Just picked up a guide 16 off of Craigslist to ditch fish. The plastic is pretty tough compared to fiberglass. Might come in handy launching in less than ideal areas


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