# Cloth to replace Kevlar and Carbon fibers



## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

I will be using this material to build my next skiff with. From what I have been told it’s way more abrasive resistant than kevlar, has way better impact resistance than kevlar and is about midway between Eglass and carbon in stiffness. It’s Ecco friendly because it does not have to be chemically made like the other fabrics. It’s very cost competitive compared to carbon and Kevlar.
Be the first kid on the boat ramp to say...” yea my skiffs made out of melted Lava”


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## FireTurtle (Apr 27, 2019)

Nice! That will be fun to learn about from your progress.


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## jglidden (Feb 13, 2014)

View attachment 79302


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## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

Ill do it......
Whats the weight diffrence?


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Rookiemistake said:


> Ill do it......
> Whats the weight diffrence?


Compared to glass It's right about 1/10th of a gram per cubic centimeter heavier than eglass and 2/10th's heavier than s2 glass. It's significantly heavier than kevlar per cubic centimeter but I don't know anything about lay up and how the different proprieties come together to make a strong piece of material.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

The question should be, how much resin does it hold. That's where the weight comes from, isn't it? Isn't that the benefit of carbon? Less resin=less weight?


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

@Chris Morejohn 

When do you think you'll have a laminate schedule using this material?


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## Pole Position (Apr 3, 2016)

Sounds like this stuff may be the answer to all the mysterious oyster rashes I seem to get...


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## East Cape (Sep 3, 2015)

I'll reply in short. The fabric and vail flow ok but it does use more resin...
For fire retardant/heat areas this is GREAT! This and two other types of materials we've been playing with. IMHO it's hard to beat pure fabrics over hybrids that others are now into. Good to see others looking deeper into alternate composites.
~ Kevin


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

Thanks for the insight Kevin,
What I like about it’s possibilities is that it’s ecco friendly. Combined with infusion skiff builders would be helping the environment out a bit more. 
I like the part that because it’s made of Rock when grinding you possibly wont be getting as itchy because it’s not glass fibers. 
In one-off skiff building it could be an answer to the outside skins for abrasion resistance. Kevlar does nothing for this other than puff up.
I will let you know what I experience as I start to work with it this fall.


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## East Cape (Sep 3, 2015)

Chris Morejohn said:


> Thanks for the insight Kevin,
> What I like about its possibilities is that it’s eco friendly. Combined with infusion skiff builders would be helping the environment out a bit more.
> I like the part that because it’s made of Rock when grinding you possibly won't be getting as itchy because it’s not glass fibers.
> In one-off skiff building, it could be an answer to the outside skins for abrasion resistance. Kevlar does nothing for this other than puff up.
> I will let you know what I experience as I start to work with it this fall.




I agree on the environment with the added benefit to the infusion aspect. But if it uses more resin than typical with the added costs of the material itself, plus resin, it makes it difficult to use.
Now with the Kevlar, we work the bag while it 60% pulled before we pull 100%
Doing this gets the pleats out and not needing sanding/peel-ply to the areas you want to finish.
We have also been using a "DRY" skin coat as well over the typical open mold via chop/mat that many been doing for years. We find less resin use, lighter part, easier lay up and better for the earth...
And without hyping the latest ubber dubber space age material...LOL


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

East Cape said:


> I agree on the environment with the added benefit to the infusion aspect. But if it uses more resin than typical with the added costs of the material itself, plus resin, it makes it difficult to use.
> Now with the Kevlar, we work the bag while it 60% pulled before we pull 100%
> Doing this gets the pleats out and not needing sanding/peel-ply to the areas you want to finish.
> We have also been using a "DRY" skin coat as well over the typical open mold via chop/mat that many been doing for years. We find less resin use, lighter part, easier lay up and better for the earth...
> And without hyping the latest ubber dubber space age material...LOL


Kevin,
What I find is if building a one off skiff like I am pushing with my design plans is that you have way more control over final weight in the build over conventional molded builds if built properly.
In production building there can be lots of added weight using hatch liners, cockpit liners and on and on.
The thing that gets my attention with the possibility’s of stuff like this is when building a one off skiff you can very easily build a skiff lighter than an infused all carbon production build because you can leave out all the Extra materials needed for the above mentioned parts. The one-off builder can fair and paint and save weight.
I feel that Kevlar needs to be in muiltple layers to offer any impact resistance. Same thing with the Basalt cloth. To get enough layers into a skiffs hull defeats the purpose in the first place.
In a one-off build though a combination of materials and proper engineering of laminates can result in a finished hull that can weigh right there with an all carbon hull and in the end most likely won’t feel as jumpy as an all carbon build.
This will be fun to see how it goes.


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## manny2376 (Mar 15, 2007)

As a self proclaimed skiff nerd, that was an amazing exchange to read! Thank you both for sharing on this forum!


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## East Cape (Sep 3, 2015)

Chris Morejohn said:


> Kevin,
> What I find is if building a one off skiff like I am pushing with my design plans is that you have way more control over final weight in the build over conventional molded builds if built properly.
> In production building there can be lots of added weight using hatch liners, cockpit liners and on and on.
> The thing that gets my attention with the possibility’s of stuff like this is when building a one off skiff you can very easily build a skiff lighter than an infused all carbon production build because you can leave out all the Extra materials needed for the above mentioned parts. The one-off builder can fair and paint and save weight.
> ...










I'll keep this reply short and say I disagree with you on one-off/home builder vs. a company. Good arguments can be had for both sides.
The main reason is the variables all come into play on each side of this equally...

I can't speak for other builders but if a customer comes to us and wants a non-linear, no-frills boat we will build that boat. Other than their time where do they save and gain a better built boat?
The other point you mention on "proper engineering of laminates" can also be had on the company side making that just as equal. And lastly, all things considered, the company through repetitive steps will produce a better laminate as the home-builder is in a learning phase/stage.

But again, it will come out to the person doing it and neither really has an edge over the other IMHO. 
A home built boat will save you money but cost you time...

The result of how long you build that boat will give you the end result of what you built. 
Good topic for sure but this topic and replies comes to more of an opinion IMHO 

Cheers!
Kevin


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## fjmaverick (Sep 18, 2015)

How do you account for the change in ride when the boat weighs 1/10th the normal design? I recall seeing a stepped hull boat made out of Carbon that road significantly different than the fiberglass version because of the reduced weight and draft. It was like the free board was way out of the water and the steps weren't even functional.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

This is very cool. I like seeing the technology develop with boat building. I come from a racing sailboat background and the highest quality custom builders have been building race boats with pre-preg carbon fiber, vaccuum bagged, and autoclave cured hulls for years. The power boat market seem to be playing catch up. That being said, there is a point where you need some weight in a hull to make it ride comfortably and push the water out of the way as opposed to riding like a surfboard. I can tell you that while those all carbon sailboats were fast (for sailboats) they had very jerky motions when it was choppy. The other issue is cost of the build. How many folks would actually spend the money to have a 17 or 18' skiff made that way? I'd guess and easy $120k for a basic build. So for the business, there has to be a point where we can get almost the same performance out of a glass build vs carbon/kevlar/basalt etc and only charge $60k for the same skiff.
As an old boss of mine used to say, "good, fast, cheap- pick two...)


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

At speed I really don’t think a hull that weighs 100 pounds more will draft much more than a lighter one but it will have the “ass” to handle the chop better. I have experienced this first hand with larger hulls (26’) that were made 350 pounds lighter and rode so much rougher it was not really worth the weight savings versus loss in ride quality. There must be more rigidity to a CF hull over Carbon/Kevlar right? Wouldn’t the added rigidity coupled with being lighter cause a loss in ride comfort in chop? I’m thinking along the lines of hull flex acting as a buffer. Poling skiffs should in theory be poled more than run on plane so I can see where an inch of draft could be great but at what cost? I have been running a Whipray 17.8 the last couple of weeks and have to honestly say I prefer my HPX Tunnel even in chop. Maybe I just got used to the Maverick but I’m not quite sure I can see where the rough water capability is any better. If it is, it’s very marginal. Maybe the 90 needs to be swapped to my 70TLR? We’re about to find out. 
Very interesting topic. I have still not set foot on a Chittum.


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

Kevin, and all.
I started this thread to share to possibility’s of another type of cloth that might work in this market. If the cloth could dampen noise that could be very useful. If it does not itche so much when working with it compared to eglass cloth that would be nice. The uses are there for the trying, testing out. I will this fall on my next one-off build.
I have said here before that the quality of a home build one off skiff depends on the builder. With a good set of plans with a proven hull shape and some time to set aside then I feel most anyone can build a skiff that can be as good or better than a store bought skiff. Some of the guys that have started skiff building company’s started their careers building a skiff this way as a one off.
One example I give of building a one off being possibly a better skiff than store bought skiffs is the trend today of skiff companies installing so much hardware in the hulls before the deck goes on. All those hose clamps that can never be reached again because they are hidden in places that can only be reached by cutting the newish skiff to pieces. In a well thought out build this will never need to happen.
The cool thing about one off building is the build is totally in your control. Skiff building is not hard, it just takes one step at a time. 
Men build fishing rods, tie flys, repair their trucks, build decks, houses, weld aluminum I can go on. America is full of excellant craftsman just needing a proven hull shape a good set of plans and some information to build custom skiffs to suit their needs.

I too am a sailor and have sailed many miles in all carbon sailboats. They are very strong and light. Sailing is different than standing on the deck of a small 17’8” skiff with a waterline of 15’9”. Just look at today’s trend in having a bunch of aluminum contraptions on the bow and stern to keep people from not falling overboard. 
When sailing you are going through a ton of gyrations sailing over the seas at all angles. Your goal is to go as fast as possible to win and to not get thrown overboard. It’s a sport that can be very fun. But very wearing.
When building a one off skiff you can dial in what you want your skiff to weigh by making a list of your goals in advance. All my designs from the past 36 years can benefit from being as light as what works with the final load needs. This means they and most other skiffs that have some weight to them feel better running in a chop. It’s obvious. Now take the perceived need to float as shallow as possible. So you build the skiff as light as possible and strong enough to take the strain. Then you add your weight needs to it from that bigger engine you think you need to all the gear. Then add your real weight. Your buddies weight. If you jump into one skiff to the other and want the heavy skiffs ride but want the 400lb skiff to pole around in.... well you have to do what I suggest at times is to have two skiffs. Tow the real skiff for fishing with the dream skiff with all the stuff on it. Or just be realistic. It’s all a compromise. 
Look at my skiff hull lines plans. They have the displacement calculations on them for each inch of submersion. When you see you are at 1438lbs at 7” this means you need to add up your weight-wish list 
To see where your real draft will, could be. Would be cool to see this on all the other builders spec sheets. Kind of like looking at the calories at McDonalds.

Aside from saving enough cash to buy a new car outright when building your own skiff you get the satisfaction of the final product. 
I built my 38’ sailboat at HB while I was building, designing and selling skiffs there in my after hours.
It cost me $35,000.00 to get her launched and ready to live aboard. 20 years, 36,000 ocean miles, and 36 counties visited later and she still makes me smile as she saved me years of extra time earning the cash to buy a store bought boat. 

I will let you all know what I find out with this material as I go along


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

@Chris Morejohn 
I was telling @Boatbrains about this fabric a couple months ago. 

I experimented with it a few years ago and I feel it is closer to S glass than E. When made into a panel there is a totally different sound to it. It sounds like a thud vs a ping.

I scuffed up a piece of panel so I could get it to fray and then soaked in water for 5 days. It absorbed exactly 0 grams (scale was 3 decimal places).

There is no doubt there is benefits to it but those currently are outweighed due to cloth choices and width. Never seen it wider than 36. The biggest disappointment is that it is very difficult to source. I had to order from Scandanavia (or somewhere like that) and I don't know of anyone who carries it. However, you can buy some small squares off ebay that guys use to make a carbon fiber effect. The cost makes it a bit prohibitive as there are 2 companies in the world who make it, all of it is sold as a pre-packaged product. Processing is less intense and price should be less than glass, but it is not.

I tried to get the owner of Raka to start sourcing it and he was open to it and started down that road but found it too difficult and eventually focused his energy elsewhere. 

I think boatbrains was going to buy some and start testing it.


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

DuckNut said:


> @Chris Morejohn
> I was telling @Boatbrains about this fabric a couple months ago.
> 
> I experimented with it a few years ago and I feel it is closer to S glass than E. When made into a panel there is a totally different sound to it. It sounds like a thud vs a ping.
> ...


What interests me is the sound deadening effect as apposed to a carbon hull. Also the abrasion resistance.
Look at the info I posted here. I got an email back from the guy listed and they have 10 oz. cloth equivalent in 39-1/2” widths which is not bad. I have built skiffs in the past out of 12” Wide S glass and it was not too time consuming. I have pictures of a client trying to shoot a bullet through a test Panel. Bullet bounced off. The eglass panel it went right trough. The info above is based out of Texas.


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## Finsleft258 (Oct 7, 2018)

A bit anecdotal but, I play a lot of tennis. Wilson first started doing the basalt (BLX) rackets in 2008-2009. The basalt does improve impact deadening by a remarkable amount. However, I noticed I flexed out the frames much more quickly. I would guess it cannot handle cyclic loading as well as other fabrics. 

Chris is there any data on the loading characteristics?


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

Finsleft258 said:


> A bit anecdotal but, I play a lot of tennis. Wilson first started doing the basalt (BLX) rackets in 2008-2009. The basalt does improve impact deadening by a remarkable amount. However, I noticed I flexed out the frames much more quickly. I would guess it cannot handle cyclic loading as well as other fabrics.
> 
> Chris is there any data on the loading characteristics?


Not yet...

I just came across this stuff from an overseas client. What I see as a good step in the right direction this material could do for the market is the deadening of hull noise you get with a cored hull verses a solid laminate hull skin, the better abrasion possibility’s, the good impact resistance. 
What I look to do with it is to use it on the outside of the core skin from the upper chine downwards.
The rest of my build I will probably stick with regular eglass 10 oz cloth. 
If I were to use carbon it would only be on the inside of the hull skin under the stringers that go down the sides.
Because my designs are all one piece completely glued together they can be built lighter than a production skiff in many places. Especially ones that are built in all carbon.
Carbon gives a hull great stiffness if it’s used in enough layers. When you are building an all core hull that’s 3/4” thick regular 10 oz eglass cloth layers using basic polyester resin can produce a hull that’s plenty strong and still be very light. Use epoxy resin and it gets a bit stronger and stiffer. 
Any hull that has Kevlar on its inside skin is wasting $ on the build.

What everyone needs to look at is the dry weights of the fabrics and how little they vary. Then look at each individual cloth to see the % of stiffness compared to old school eglass.
Now take a typical production skiff and it’s vertical bulkheads, cockpit pan. To get a good part out of the mold you have Gelcoat, matt, fabric ? Bonding putty and then final outside cloth. 
If infusing you eliminate the bonding putty. 
In my one off skiffs you just layup 1 layer of 10oz. Cloth over the coresheet that will make up the vertical bulkheads and other parts. Because the bulkhead is in compression only and is bonded via putty fillets, and glass tabbings to the deck, sheer, hull sides,cockpit floor, hull bottom,it is sharing its load through out the structure. This is way lighter than production hulls. You finish off with primer and paint.
There’s the difference, Gelcoat vs paint.
I have skiffs built this way still going strong at 37 years old.
I Don’t believe in having a super light weight hull as a general rule. But what’s nice is to put your weight in skins like on the bottom and save weight in other places.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Chris Morejohn said:


> What interests me is the sound deadening effect as apposed to a carbon hull. Also the abrasion resistance.
> Look at the info I posted here. I got an email back from the guy listed and they have 10 oz. cloth equivalent in 39-1/2” widths which is not bad. I have built skiffs in the past out of 12” Wide S glass and it was not too time consuming. I have pictures of a client trying to shoot a bullet through a test Panel. Bullet bounced off. The eglass panel it went right trough. The info above is based out of Texas.


I misspoke. I said 36 and in fact it was 39.

It will do exactly what you want it to.


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

DuckNut said:


> I misspoke. I said 36 and in fact it was 39.
> 
> It will do exactly what you want it to.


Great!


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## Pole Position (Apr 3, 2016)

For those who are interested, here is the contact info for the US distributor:

Nick Gencarelle
Smarter Building Systems
401-481-8422
[email protected]

Here are some youtubes on basalt--pretty damn impressive, needless to say:


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Pole Position said:


> For those who are interested, here is the contact info for the US distributor:
> 
> Nick Gencarelle
> Smarter Building Systems
> ...


Where do I get a Parsun outboard?


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

Pole Position said:


> For those who are interested, here is the contact info for the US distributor:
> 
> Nick Gencarelle
> Smarter Building Systems
> ...


Thanks for posting these videos. To me this means no more Kevlar in skiffs of my design. Kevlar is extreamly hard to repair. Not because it’s bulletproof it’s because you can grind it, it just puffs up.
Looks to me like this stuff should be the go to material for any oyster area.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

yobata said:


> Where do I get a Parsun outboard?


that Parsun 90 looks pretty light...


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

devrep said:


> that Parsun 90 looks pretty light...


Wonder it it is "bulletproof"?


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## Pole Position (Apr 3, 2016)

yobata said:


> Where do I get a Parsun outboard?



I wonder whose technology the Chinese stole on this product?


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

same technology that the Japanese reversed engineered.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-40-HP-...142495257468?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

devrep said:


> same technology that the Japanese reversed engineered.
> View attachment 80184


Looks like a Yamaha...Japanese


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## Pole Position (Apr 3, 2016)

http://www.parsun.us/about-us/


Parsun is a US and international brand of outboards motors, generators, pumps, and engines, co-designed with expertise of our US and Japanese partners.

Suzhou Parsun Power Machine Co., Ltd. was founded in 2001 in Suzhou, China. Our core technology team’s collective experience dates back to 1968, including working with OMC (the original manufacturer of Johnson and Evinrude) in the development of integral components for high-power outboard engines in the late 1990’s.

Our US partner, Elco Motor Yachts, LLC located in New York, manages the design, technology and patents for our electric outboard products and accessories, as well as the global outsourcing of key parts and materials.


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

You want a 40 hp 2 stroke Enduro Yamaha cheap, fly to Panama City Panama, buy a 25’ brand new Panga hull ready to go for under 10K and load it up with these engines at $3,400.00 each. Island hop back up to the Gulf states and your buddies will keep you in beer for awhile. I was there for the past year on my sailboat.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

devrep said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-40-HP-...142495257468?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10


One of the photos in that ad is sporting a Croatian flag - wonder if they're trying to make it look more legit??


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

apparently Croatians are still allowed to purchase simple 2 strokes...


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Chris Morejohn said:


> You want a 40 hp 2 stroke Enduro Yamaha cheap, fly to Panama City Panama, buy a 25’ brand new Panga hull ready to go for under 10K and load it up with these engines at $3,400.00 each. Island hop back up to the Gulf states and your buddies will keep you in beer for awhile. I was there for the past year on my sailboat.


 Be careful Chris, there are some guys on this forum ready to jump anyone’s ass for even talking like that...


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Chris Morejohn said:


> You want a 40 hp 2 stroke Enduro Yamaha cheap, fly to Panama City Panama, buy a 25’ brand new Panga hull ready to go for under 10K and load it up with these engines at $3,400.00 each. Island hop back up to the Gulf states and your buddies will keep you in beer for awhile. I was there for the past year on my sailboat.


When you sail back from the PNW maybe you could fill your sailboat with them...just sayin'


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

yobata said:


> Where do I get a Parsun outboard?


Import from China assembled by $3/day worker, no parts supply, warranty, or repair. But just think you could buy three of them for redundancy.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

sjrobin said:


> Import from China assembled by $3/day worker, no parts supply, warranty, or repair. But just think you could buy three of them for redundancy.


Judging by that photo Yamaha 50TLR parts should fit...


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Judging by that photo Yamaha 50TLR parts should fit...


Buy a couple of them and let us know.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Judging by that photo Yamaha 50TLR parts should fit...


Buy a couple of them and let us know.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Judging by that photo Yamaha 50TLR parts should fit...


I was thinking the same damn thing. Looks EXACTLY like a Yammy.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

It's funny how a thread can go off track and fast, we went from a suggestion that there is a new material on the market that coupld be used similarly to fiberglass, kevlar, and/or carbon to how to pushacse a Panga in Panama and power it with so cheap knockoff power-plant instead...

I need a new car any suggestions ?


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

When it comes to building boats with fibers other than glass, Hells Bay tested the carbon innegra laminate schedule over the last two years in the Skiff Challenge Biscayne and other skiffs before converting all builds to this material for the 2019 model year. The advantage HB has in testing new laminates is they build a lot of skiffs the same way. I just bought another 2019 Professional with innegra laminate. Other than minor changes in the poling platform height it is the same skiff as my 2015 model with 500 tough hours and zero problems with skiff, Yamaha F60, TH Marine plate, electrical system rigging, and Raymarine Axiom Pro. The only negatives on the 2015 were the Ramlin trailer tire failures. I only have ten hours on the 2019, but the improvement is what I expected in performance. A little more responsive and easier to start with the push pole. The other minor differences on this hull with same F60 and prop size is 1.5 mph faster at top end at 35.4 mph and it has a slightly different ride feel in chop. I have not compared draft yet. I am a fish hunter, not a skiff driver, but I hunt fish in almost any wind speed so rough water planing performance and poling performance are number one. I expect a little less draft with the much lighter innegra fiber vs kevlar. You can feel the weight difference between the fibers in your hand.


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## POCtied (Oct 19, 2016)

never understood why Kevlar was ever used in anything near h20


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2019)

POCtied said:


> never understood why Kevlar was ever used in anything near h20


Because is sells boats!


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Be careful Chris, there are some guys on this forum ready to jump anyone’s ass for even talking like that...


Yeah liberal crybabies


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

POCtied said:


> never understood why Kevlar was ever used in anything near h20


Kevlar is a used for impact resistance and strength. Given the same design and build methods, skiffs built with a layer of kevlar will have a longer service life than an all glass laminate, especially if they are used in choppy open water. The closed cell foam with no voids in the Boston Whaler laminate made them legendarily tough and 1960's built Whalers will still be in service long after other boats are in the fiberglass graveyard.


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Be careful Chris, there are some guys on this forum ready to jump anyone’s ass for even talking like that...


These types of Pangas go for just over $9,000.00 in Panama. 40hp enduros are just over $3,100.00 
Take them out of their boxes and you should be able to carry at least 6-8 back, plus the 2 on the transom.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Chris Morejohn said:


> View attachment 80372
> 
> These types of Pangas go for just over $9,000.00 in Panama. 40hp enduros are just over $3,100.00
> Take them out of their boxes and you should be able to carry at least 6-8 back, plus the 2 on the transom.


Headed down in February


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Headed down in February


You can jump back via long day jumps from Bocas Del Toro out to San Andreas, to Provdencia and on up through the mosquito islands to Belize and up to Mexico. Make the jump from there to Key West.
Stay away from The Nicaragua coast and Honduras, bandits there.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

60's built Whalers... I've worked on them at a friend's glass shop -and many were terribly water-logged. Any old tri-hull built that way had a tendency to soak up water if there was the slightest breach in hull integrity... "closed cell" foam was a dream back then... One of the tricks my friend used was to bore a hole or two at the bottom of the transom then stand the hull straight up and use an air line to add internal pressure from the top. 

If you actually weighed one of those older Whalers (or any similar type construction) you'd usually find it was much, much heavier after a few years hard service than it was as it came from the factory - but folks still bought them...

I have no idea how they build them today but closed cell foam would be a necessity...


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

But would the coasties lock me up for running Yammy groupers?


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Chris Morejohn said:


> View attachment 80372
> 
> These types of Pangas go for just over $9,000.00 in Panama. 40hp enduros are just over $3,100.00
> Take them out of their boxes and you should be able to carry at least 6-8 back, plus the 2 on the transom.


Multiple problems with the plan. Mexican coast guard/police, USCG, and US Customs. Be prepared to lose $$$. Kind of like going to Vegas.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

sjrobin said:


> 1960's built Whalers will still be in service long after other boats are in the fiberglass graveyard.


But they will weigh 2 tons from the water inside.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

sjrobin said:


> Multiple problems with the plan. Mexican coast guard/police, USCG, and US Customs. Be prepared to lose $$$. Kind of like going to Vegas.


I have heard there are guys in Miami who are importing them.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

DuckNut said:


> But they will weigh 2 tons from the water inside.


Only the Whalers that were damaged and not repaired in a timely fashion or the owners drilled holes all over them for useless attachments. I have owned and fished out of many Whalers going back to 1968 models that are still in service. I had a 1978 21' Outrage with OMC 200 that would run 50 mph in 1998 and float in nine inches of water.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

lemaymiami said:


> 60's built Whalers... I've worked on them at a friend's glass shop -and many were terribly water-logged. Any old tri-hull built that way had a tendency to soak up water if there was the slightest breach in hull integrity... "closed cell" foam was a dream back then... One of the tricks my friend used was to bore a hole or two at the bottom of the transom then stand the hull straight up and use an air line to add internal pressure from the top.
> 
> If you actually weighed one of those older Whalers (or any similar type construction) you'd usually find it was much, much heavier after a few years hard service than it was as it came from the factory - but folks still bought them...
> 
> I have no idea how they build them today but closed cell foam would be a necessity...


Bob, you are referring to Whalers that were compromised by the humans that owned them.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

sjrobin said:


> Only the Whalers that were damaged and not repaired in a timely fashion or the owners drilled holes all over them for useless attachments. I have owned and fished out of many Whalers going back to 1968 models that are still in service. I had a 1978 21' Outrage with OMC 200 that would run 50 mph in 1998 and float in nine inches of water.


When the heat from the sun warms the deck and the water cools the hull you will get condensation in between the sole and hull. It will accumulate over time. This is a law of nature that has yet to be dis-proven.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

DuckNut said:


> When the heat from the sun warms the deck and the water cools the hull you will get condensation in between the sole and hull. It will accumulate over time. This is a law of nature that has yet to be dis-proven.


I have no experience with these hulls, but I'm guessing almost all of the extra water in these hulls is due to rigging. If they are truly sealed up, the only condensation that could occur can only precipitate out of whatever air is in there.

So *theoretically* if you were to encapsulate that foam in a zero percent humidity environment, you will never see water in that hull (assuming nothing penetrates the fiberglass resin). Real world translation, you will never see more than a trivial amount of water accumulated in the hull due to condensation, even if it's laid up in a pretty humid environment -- almost exclusively an effect of breaching the fiberglass skin.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

bryson said:


> I have no experience with these hulls, but I'm guessing almost all of the extra water in these hulls is due to rigging. If they are truly sealed up, the only condensation that could occur can only precipitate out of whatever air is in there.
> 
> So *theoretically* if you were to encapsulate that foam in a zero percent humidity environment, you will never see water in that hull (assuming nothing penetrates the fiberglass resin). Real world translation, you will never see more than a trivial amount of water accumulated in the hull due to condensation, even if it's laid up in a pretty humid environment -- almost exclusively an effect of breaching the fiberglass skin.


There are thousands of carolina skiffs with tiller steer and nothing mounted to the floor which are water logged.

Not disagreeing with you on the point of penetration by screws and such but i have worked on enough boats and never found one that was dry.

I inherited a BW 15SS that was meticulously maintained and not one single screw in anything that penetrated the sole and it was very water logged that was quite visible when tied to a dock.

Just how much water can accumulate is unknown but it will and every builder will tell you that it was caused by bad mounting or something else. They will never admit condensation happens.


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

If any cored hull even infused hulls are kept in the water for long periods they will absorb water in waterever voids are in the hull by condensation.
This means than in a closed cell cored hull using epoxy resin on down if you have any unfilled kerfs, or air bubbles there will eventually be moisture in there.
The best way to avoid excessive moisture is to fill the voids as best as possible when building.
Infusing is best.
Take any cored skiff and drill an 1/8” hole through the inside skin and watch the water spurt out. Won’t last long though. This has to done on a skiff that’s a few years old.
If you have hulls that are foam filled for flotation that type of foam with act like a sponge. Even if your hull is plywood and glassed over it will absorb moisture.
The key to elimination is to have a solid skin below the waterline and everything else above the waterline cored.
Does it matter in skiffs that are day fished and live their lives on trailers, NO.
My last dinghy I had for 12 years before it was stolen in Bequia was all cored and was built at HB.
It gained a bit of weight but was as strong as ever. It lived its life floating astern and on adventures.


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## Troy_time (Jan 15, 2019)

Have been doing some pricing on the basalt 

Best price I can get is $37 m 
Full roll purchase only 50m
For 650g

For 300g $22 any length 

Over Tripple the price over normal glass 

What prices are you guys getting over there


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2019)

Between glass and aramid prices.


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

Troy_time said:


> Have been doing some pricing on the basalt
> 
> Best price I can get is $37 m
> Full roll purchase only 50m
> ...


$640.75 USD for the 50 meter ( I meter wide) roll of the 3oo gram twill.


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## Troy_time (Jan 15, 2019)

Sublime said:


> $640.75 USD for the 50 meter ( I meter wide) roll of the 3oo gram twill.


Pretty close to the same price once converted to here 

Are you going with using it on your outer layers still ?


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

Troy_time said:


> Pretty close to the same price once converted to here
> 
> Are you going with using it on your outer layers still ?


Yes sir, that is my plan. I'd like to get a sample and see how it wets out before I determine my exact layup.


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## Pole Position (Apr 3, 2016)

Sublime said:


> Yes sir, that is my plan. I'd like to get a sample and see how it wets out before I determine my exact layup.


Iirc, Chris was going to use 2 layers of the 10oz glass and a layer of basalt as the final layer on the exterior ( inside will be 3 layers of 10oz.glass.) Have you figured if one roll will be enough to cover the exterior w/ one layer?


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

Pole Position said:


> Iirc, Chris was going to use 2 layers of the 10oz glass and a layer of basalt as the final layer on the exterior ( inside will be 3 layers of 10oz.glass.) Have you figured if one roll will be enough to cover the exterior w/ one layer?


Should be plenty. @Sethsawyer said 50 yards did his 3 outside layers and 2 inner layers. I am assuming he was using 50" wide rolls.

One of these Solidworks or autocad guys should do us a solid and calculate total surface area inside and out.


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## Troy_time (Jan 15, 2019)

Sublime said:


> Yes sir, that is my plan. I'd like to get a sample and see how it wets out before I determine my exact layup.


Would be keen to know how many layers are needed to make it “bullet proof “ as per the video


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## Fishtex (May 10, 2014)

Sublime said:


> Should be plenty. @Sethsawyer said 50 yards did his 3 outside layers and 2 inner layers. I am assuming he was using 50" wide rolls.
> 
> One of these Solidworks or autocad guys should do us a solid and calculate total surface area inside and out.


Email Chris’s CAD guy and he can pull the model up and it will show the surface area, no need to do any calculations. His email is in a thread somewhere.


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## Indoman (Jul 25, 2013)

Found 10.5 oz plain weave basalt cloth on eBay. $12.99 sq yard or 4oz twill for $14.55. Made by Innovative Composite Technologies out of NC. 

Considering buying a yard to test layup. From the bit of reading I’ve done, sounds like the twill would be stronger than the plain weave? Thinking 2-3 layers of the twill vs 1 layer of the plain weave since it’s lighter weight. ??


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

Indoman said:


> Found 10.5 oz plain weave basalt cloth on eBay. $12.99 sq yard or 4oz twill for $14.55. Made by Innovative Composite Technologies out of NC.
> 
> Considering buying a yard to test layup. From the bit of reading I’ve done, sounds like the twill would be stronger than the plain weave? Thinking 2-3 layers of the twill vs 1 layer of the plain weave since it’s lighter weight. ??


Twill seems to be the way to go.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I can't see this being that big a deal in such light weight fabrics. I'd go with the 10.5oz plain and play a bit.


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## Troy_time (Jan 15, 2019)

Plain cloth lays over perfectly fine just need to round your edges a little more but would depend on the cloth weight 

Got a new price today 
400g plain woven 
30m roll. 1 m wide
638 shipped to my door


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## Nick Gencarelle (Aug 19, 2019)

jmrodandgun said:


> Compared to glass It's right about 1/10th of a gram per cubic centimeter heavier than eglass and 2/10th's heavier than s2 glass. It's significantly heavier than kevlar per cubic centimeter but I don't know anything about lay up and how the different proprieties come together to make a strong piece of material.


Although a bit heavier many times less layers can be used than fiberglass because it takes impacts far better. So less weight and costs in total.


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## Nick Gencarelle (Aug 19, 2019)

Sublime said:


> Twill seems to be the way to go.
> 
> View attachment 87084


Our price is $10.53 a square yard for a roll price for the plain weave basalt and $9.07 for a 5.9 oz basalt twill


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## Nick Gencarelle (Aug 19, 2019)

Our price is $10.53 a square yard for a roll price for the plain weave basalt and $9.07 for a 5.9 oz basalt twill https://www.basalt.guru/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SBS-Basalt-Product-List.pdf


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## Nick Gencarelle (Aug 19, 2019)

Troy_time said:


> Plain cloth lays over perfectly fine just need to round your edges a little more but would depend on the cloth weight
> 
> Got a new price today
> 400g plain woven
> ...


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## Nick Gencarelle (Aug 19, 2019)

350 gram plain weave $10.53 sq/yd. roll price and 50 meters long


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