# GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thread)



## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

Are you sure it's infusion and not baging? Two different methods...
Kevin


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

> Are you sure it's infusion and not baging? Two different methods...
> Kevin


Bagged 

http://gladescraft.com/construction.htm


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

Plus they're using epoxy - the ultimate boat building material. With most laminating epoxy resin systems, if you added another layer within ~24 hours you will still get a chemical bond with the previous layer. That's a good thing. 

Vinylester & Polyester properties just don't compare even though every boat manufacturer that uses them will tell you they're just as good as epoxy. Be glad that aircraft manufacturers don't use the 'ester systems in their products.


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## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

> Plus they're using epoxy - the ultimate boat building material. With most laminating epoxy resin systems, if you added another layer within ~24 hours you will still get a chemical bond with the previous layer. That's a good thing.
> 
> Vinylester & Polyester properties just don't compare even though every boat manufacturer that uses them will tell you they're just as good as epoxy. Be glad that aircraft manufacturers don't use the 'ester systems in their products.


Actually thy do...
In fact the latest isue of composites tech magazine
has an article explaining that ester resins and infusion have taken the lead...
Years ago epoxy was king. Not so true today.
nothing wrong w/epoxy OR vinyl based resins. I do agree about general GP stuff though...
my .02


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

Here's the cured resin system properties for the epoxy system I use to make kayak paddles. Feel free to post the properties of your 'ester system so we can compare...

Physical Properties

Color Amber 
Shore Hardness 86D 
Tensile Strength, psi 12,600 
Tensile Modulus, psi 499,000 
Tensile Elongation, % 5.8 
Compressive Strength, psi 16,700 
Flexural Strength, psi 19,500 
Flexural Modulus, psi 494,000 
HDT, Post Cured, °F 210 
Izod Impact, Notched, ft-lb/in 1.06 
Shrinkage, in/in <0.002

For those that aren't familiar with all the properties, I'll sum it up:

This is a relatively hard, but tough epoxy that has no shrinkage when cured and like all epoxy systems is impervious to water migration.

This is supplied by Epoxical - System 2110/9218. I believe they were recently sold, so I'm not sure if this particular system is still available. I bought it last year (epoxy has an indefinite shelf life with no loss of cure properties).

I googled up one of the Derakane vinylester systems. Here's what they have:

Tensile Strength 12,000 psi 
Tensile Modulus 460,000 psi 
Tensile Elongation, Yield 5-6% 
Flexural Strength 22,000 psi 
Flexural Modulus 3.4 GPa 490,000 
Volume Shrinkage 7 - 8%
Heat Distortion Temperature(9) 220°F 
Glass Transition Temperature, 250°F 
Barcol Hardness 35 

Fairly comparable except for the shrinkage. There appears to be no direct comparison for the Shore & Barcol hardness scales.

If the organic volatiles (e.g. styrene) weren't so nasty to both air and the workers, then the newer vinylester chemistry would be comparable to an average epoxy system. I guess that's why the EPA is driving builders using 'ester based systems & styrene to using "closed" laminating systems like infusion? And with 7% shrinkage they would fall out of the molds - is that good or bad? Is pre-release an issue in that regard?

So do you use vinylester as the base for your gelcoat as well? Just curious, since historically polyester based gelcoat has been a pretty cheap & crummy coating (e.g. blistering & cracking). I notice most respected yacht manufacturers don't use gelcoat, but use Awlgrip, Sterling or similar linear polyurethane systems.

Sorry for derail on Gordon's new skiff - it's up to the next poster to steer it back on track.


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## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

There's newer "epoxy based" vinylester resins out there that offer the benifits of both types of resin btw 

I'm not gonna battle this out w/you unless you want to hash it out at our shop and we can line up a few chemists for you to battle as "both" have a place and materials as a whole have changed over the last few years as newer laws,methods, and needs are changing.

BTW- IBEX is going on right now in case your bored and want to see all the new resins/epoxies out there! MASS,COOK,AOC etc. all are showing off the new low VOC stuff too! 

Back on track...
Kevin
East Cape


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

> There's newer "epoxy based" vinylester resins out there that offer the benifits of both types of resin btw
> 
> I'm not gonna battle this out w/you unless you want to hash it out at our shop and we can line up a few chemists for you to battle as "both" have a place and materials as a whole have changed over the last few years as newer laws,methods, and needs are changing.
> 
> ...


Actually, I would like to see this thread split. This is good stuff and I would like to hear. This is a good topic / debate.

Bob? Kevin?


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

Thanks Tom for granting the request to split the thread. 
[smiley=z-respect.gif]

This is a topic that interests me and I'll admit I'm ignorant so anyone with knowledge here please chime in. I probably know just enough to blow something up. ;D ;D ;D

Thanks,
CR


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> historically polyester based gelcoat has been a pretty cheap & crummy coating (e.g. blistering & cracking). I notice most respected yacht manufacturers don't use gelcoat, but use Awlgrip, Sterling or similar linear polyurethane systems....


Bob,

What material is applied directly to to the mold (after the release of course) by builders using Awlgrip / Sterling? and how is it prepped for "paint"?

I also know gelcoat is very porous, so how would it be best prepped for paint such as Awlgrip / Sterling?

I personally would not re-gelcoat a boat and would rather paint it. Am I wrong here?


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## knotmyfault (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> Fairly comparable except for the shrinkage.


 :-?


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> > Fairly comparable except for the shrinkage.
> 
> 
> :-?


And hardness.


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

I guess I have to drive 2-1/2 hours to a builder's shop whose product I will never buy (or to a trade show 6 hours away to see more stuff I'll never buy) to discuss the merits of various boat building materials. :-[

The one thing that I have yet to see is an 'ester based system that is "better" that an epoxy system. They all market themselves as comparable, but no product comes out as to say their stuff is "better" (for laminating, gluing, and areas where forces are being applied and where strength is a concern). 

Most of the decisions made in a production operation are cost driven. Epoxy will almost always be the loser in price. But how much more does it cost over the comparable vinylester system? If you use ten gallons of each to build a skiff, I'd be surprised if the raw material cost difference was more than $300 per boat. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the markup of all the bling that gets added.

So far, I haven't seen a company that successfully markets their boats on the resin materials they use (but look out if it has carbon or kevlar hatch lids*** see below). The techno-babble (like this thread) rarely sells a boat, so there's little incentive to change to better materials until the gubberment cracks down on the volatiles being emitted or your competitors are building a better mousetrap.

As far as gelcoat goes, builders keep using it because it's cheap, easy and relatively durable. But there's no free lunch here either - it's heavy, it absorbs water (blisters), repairs are time consuming (and usually involves epoxy), it gets brittle with age (spider cracks & crazing). 

Current paint systems are more expensive (many of the good ones are shockingly more expensive) and more difficult to apply. Paints applied in a female mold are thin and fragile, where gelcoat is thick (10x's). In the mold, you could drop a tool & probably do little or no damage. A thin layer of paint would have to be treated with more care. Because of this paints are applied after construction and once everyone is done crawling all over and dragging tools around the hull. And honestly, unless they start using automotive paint systems, a poorly maintained gelcoat will outlast a poorly maintained paint - visually anyway. In most cases I would argue that a properly formulated paint provided better protection from water absorption.

Disclaimer: Just my opinion and everybody's got one - but I'm not here trying to sell anything.

*** I'm not saying that any company would ever do this, but...

Ever wonder why some builders leave the underside of their carbon/kevlar lids unfinished and the rest of their interior parts gelcoated? Did they invite you by their facility when the laminates were put in the mold for your new carbon/kevlar unobtanimum hull? Did you know there's now fiberglass that is visually identical to carbon cloth and kevlar cloth? Do you think someone in the marketing dept. might exaggerate the use of the exotic materials in their hulls when only a stiffener strip of carbon was added to the stringers (but now it's a carbon/kevlar "composite" hull - but the other 95% is fiberglass). Or how about core materials? Did the builder go down to home depot to get some foam sheet or did they pay 10 times the price for a PVC or similar based foam? Did they have to quickly laminate the core because the vinylester resin would dissolve their dirt cheap polystyrene core material before it fully cured?

I guess I'm just a mean, cynical bastard to think such thoughts.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

OK, so epoxy is the ultimate for building a hull. But in these economic times, is it feasible for a production builder to use epoxy and high grade "paint's" for a production hull to compete in the "price wars"? Is that not why most use gelcoat and polyester resins - speed, cost and a product that has acceptable (to most) quality?


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## phishphood (Dec 15, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

Lots of info here, so let me see if I got this straight. Shrinkage=bad. Hardness=Good. Right?


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*










[smiley=1-biggrin.gif]


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> Lots of info here, so let me see if I got this straight. Shrinkage=bad. Hardness=Good. Right?



Not sure. 

If in fact shrinkage helps the release from the mold so they don't have to jack hammer it out and without pre-release, I would think it would be a good thing. :-/

Hardness could be good if it doesn't relate to brittle. :-/

Just my thoughts.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> [smiley=1-biggrin.gif]



[smiley=no_derail.png] 

Eve though this is the derailed thread. ;D ;D ;D

[smiley=1-biggrin.gif]


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> OK, so epoxy is the ultimate for building a hull. But in these economic times, is it feasible for a production builder to use epoxy and high grade "paint's" for a production hull to compete in the "price wars"? Is that not why most use gelcoat and polyester resins - speed, cost and a product that has acceptable (to most) quality?


Given the prices that these new hulls are fetching? Hell yes. Are the materials, technologies, design, & labor being used on a higher level as another industry like bathtubs, shower stalls, fiberglass pools, or hot tubs? Granted, most bathtubs don't go screaming across 4 foot swell at 60 mph so there's some added design costs to spread out over a production life. So if design staff gets paid $500k to design a boat with a projected production run of 500 over it's production life, that's $1k added to boat sticker. The numbers still don't add up. A businessman should be able to make a strong business from building products out the best of breed materials and processes. The competition is painting themselves into the corner with environmentally detrimental materials and processes that are also hazards to the health of their employees.
The companies that are in it for the fast buck are going to make more money, but they'll be eaten up with warranty claims and retrofits to their hazardous processes in the end. The guy looking for a long future will have to settle for a little less profit (still make money), but be a long term player. 

Personally I would rather make a comfortable living and make a high quality product, than to be rich but constantly battling the headaches of pissed off customers, dealers, OSHA, & EPA inspectors.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> > OK, so epoxy is the ultimate for building a hull. But in these economic times, is it feasible for a production builder to use epoxy and high grade "paint's" for a production hull to compete in the "price wars"? Is that not why most use gelcoat and polyester resins - speed, cost and a product that has acceptable (to most) quality?
> 
> 
> Given the prices that these new hulls are fetching? Hell yes. Are the materials, technologies, design, & labor being used on a higher level as another industry like bathtubs, shower stalls, fiberglass pools, or hot tubs? Granted, most bathtubs don't go screaming across 4 foot swell at 60 mph so there's some added design costs to spread out over a production life. So if design staff gets paid $500k to design a boat with a projected production run of 500 over it's production life, that's $1k added to boat sticker. The numbers still don't add up. A businessman should be able to make a strong business from building products out the best of breed materials and processes. The competition is painting themselves into the corner with environmentally detrimental materials and processes that are also hazards to the health of their employees.
> The companies that are in it for the fast buck are going to make more money, but they'll be eaten up with warranty claims and retrofits to their hazardous processes in the end. The guy looking for a long future will have to settle for a little less profit (but still make money), but be a long term player.



OK, save me some time doing the math.

What if the lifetime production run was say 100 boats selling at a cost less than 15K (for the hull)? Would that change your views?


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

SWAG -

$5000 for the materials. (including the mold, equipment & tooling costs spread out over 100 hulls)

Let's throw $75,000 to the naval architect for the design. 

Advertising by attending some boat shows, websites, fishing gatherings, freerides, factory tours, etc. Throw in another $500 a boat.

Let's say your production volume is 1 per week. That's 2 years to finish the run or 24 months.

Staff of 3 including yourself. The employees make $40,000 per year fully burdened. $160K for labor with you pitching in when necessary. $1600 per boat for labor. (You can either add your salary in here or hope for some profit to pocket)

Rent & utilities for the shop. Beats me, but let's throw out $2k a month or $48K for the run. $480 per boat for the run.

$5000 Materials (including the mold costs spread out over 100 hulls)
$750 Designer (he's WAY over compensated, probably should just give him a free boat)
$500 Marketing
$1600 Labor
$480 Rent & utilities

$8330 per boat to make the hull.

You get to keep the $6670 per hull or your salary is about $333500 per year not including all the taxes. Not a bad living, especially if you have a waiting list for the hulls. The taxes won't be so bad because you'll get to write off the depreciation on all that equipment, boat show travel, free rides, strippers, hookers & beer.


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

[smiley=off-topic1.gif] .

[smiley=1-sillyface.gif]


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> SWAG -
> 
> $5000 for the materials. (including the mold, equipment & tooling costs spread out over 100 hulls)
> 
> ...


I see you haven't put much thought into this but your last statement looks to cover all the important aspects. ;D ;D


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> [smiley=off-topic1.gif] .
> 
> [smiley=1-sillyface.gif]


 [smiley=finger.gif]

[smiley=tongueout.gif]


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



>


Just take 6 aspirin 1 hour before you start to read and it's not so bad.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

This is Glades Craft's claim:

 "The Epoxy Advantage:

Epoxy is approximately six times stronger than vinylester or polyester resin. Epoxy also has buoyancy properties that make it float shallower than other resins. Epoxy and shallow water skiff construction are a match made in heaven."

I guess the strength is now debatable but what about the bouyancy?


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

I'll wait for the resident boat builders to join the discussion. I don't want to be a thread hog (is there a gif for that?)


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> I'll wait for the resident boat builders to discuss buoyancy relative to the resin system. I don't want to be a thread hog (is there a gif for that?)


Yeah. If you and I are going to have a discussion, why don't you just drop by for a bheer? Ooooooooooor I still would like to come see your work.  But will bring bheer. ;D ;D

Thanks for the input.


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> I don't want to be a thread hog (is there a gif for that?)


No, I checked. But I am concerned that you know enough to call them GIFs. 

Lets see you know boat building, IT and what else?????


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> > I don't want to be a thread hog (is there a gif for that?)
> 
> 
> No, I checked. But I am concerned that you know enough to call them GIFs.
> ...



Bheer. Doesn't that cover it? ;D ;D


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

Hey Bob, 

Great info. I have a question about the gelcoat. Now I know fiberglass will absorp water over time. I was always under the assumption that the gelcoat was used on the hull to prevent this water absorption into the fiberglass. Is there a big difference in the rates of absorption between the fiberglass and the gelcoat that the gelcoat is used between the fiberglass and the gelcoat? I was also under the assumption that blisters were from other things like incorrect mixture in the resin or air bubbles left in during the lay up which could grow from everyday heating and cooling, but not water absorption.


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## swampfox (May 9, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

daaamm! i didn't think i would get much response. i was wrong.


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## brew1891 (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



>


bwaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I agree and this is why I leave the boat building to the experts like Tom, Kev, and Puger

*edit: i cant make the picture show up again, i am internet retarded, Tom please fix


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## Tom_C (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> i cant make the picture show up again, i am internet retarded, Tom please fix


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

Beavis - Do a google search for "osmotic blistering". I could regurgitate what I know, but there are better articles and authorities on the subject than me.


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> i cant make the picture show up again, i am internet retarded, Tom please fix


Pictures don't show up in quotes. Have to just repost them........Its a feature :


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## brew1891 (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

that feature=the suck


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

Is blistering even an issue for the typical microkiff that may be kept in a garage or under a cover? I can not recall seeing a small boat that was reasonably well kept ever having a blister. 

A submerged boat or a boat that sat filled with water might be a different story.


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> that feature=the suck


I will add it to the list of things I will never get done ;D


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

[smiley=soapbox.gif]

I don't want people to get the idea that their polyester & vinylester built boats are garbage. Those resin systems are perfectly acceptable and create a solid boat - *if* certain rules are followed in the process. There are millions of great boats floating out there that are good testaments to the proper use and combinations of fiberglass, quality core material, and 'ester resins.

Are they best resin systems when you are after (or paying the price for) the lightest & strongest hull for a particular application? Probably not, in my view. Will they get you in the ballpark parking lot, yes. 

All the marketing that gets shoved down a boat buyers throat conveys the idea that they're buying the latest in technology and materials and that's why their boats are better than everyone else's. IMHO, in very few instances are they doing anything better or different than the next guy. The boats are priced and marketed as the ultimate combination of bleeding edge technology and human genius. They're not.
$20,000 for a plastic hull? It boggles my mind every time I see those prices and think of all the other technologies out there and what you can get for $20K.

A few years ago I wanted to build a canoe and sit-on-top kayak that would fit my needs. I'm 6'6", so these small boats aren't really built with a person of my size in mind. So, I'm confident of my skill levels that I could probably build what I wanted. I researched materials and processes to get there. I've got a background in aerospace composites & engineering, so I knew what I was looking for and if the boats exceeded my expectations I figured I would approach the building of them as if i was going to make at least 10 more.. I've got some knowledge on what makes a high strength & light weight composite and the equipment and methods to make them. I've invested a little bit of money in equipment to be able to imitate the people who are building things right. I've built some small parts as a proof of concept and they've turned out well. I'm currently building a skiff similar to the Glades Skiff as a further learning exercise.

So what I'm getting at with all this typing is that I've learned a lot in the process of finding my perfect boat because I've always known I would be building it myself. I've come across & tried things that work well and scratch my head as to why everyone isn't doing or using "it" this way. One of those things happens to be epoxy resins. Mostly, I think builders are too lazy, too cheap, or too scared to improve things for themselves, their customers, and their employees.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> Is blistering even an issue for the typical microkiff that may be kept in a garage or under a cover? I can not recall seeing a small boat that was reasonably well kept ever having a blister.
> 
> A submerged boat or a boat that sat filled with water might be a different story.


Correct. If one does appear it should be a warranty issue. But it important to know that your boat will actually get heavier because it is absorbing water. For most of us the boat does not get used enough to matter and another reason gelcoat is "acceptable".


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> [smiley=soapbox.gif]
> So what I'm getting at with all this typing is that I've learned a lot in the process of finding my perfect boat because I've always known I would be building it myself. I've come across & tried things that work well and scratch my head as to why everyone isn't doing or using "it" this way. One of those things happens to be epoxy resins. Mostly, I think builders are too lazy, too cheap, or too scared to improve things for themselves, their customers, and their employees.


Hell, then we might as well pick on any other manufacturer of mass producer of almost any product. Even in my business, I applied what I learned from my experience in the body shop to my application. I have people from the industry come by and ask "why do I do it that way"? I learned from a guy who was fast and taught me that sometimes the fast way is the long way. Better to take your time and make sure everything is properly aligned than to have to beat it to death and / or cut it apart. It's faster and makes for a better job to do it one time right. The trouble is finding someone who is willing to pay for the difference in quality. I end up giving it away and sleep well at night.  I do a lot of repeat work though.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

JRH,

Ditch the rocket science, teach me to catch Tarpon and we'll talk about boat construction.  All over a cold one without holders.


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> JRH,
> 
> Ditch the rocket science, teach me to catch Tarpon and we'll talk about boat construction.  All over a cold one without holders.



;D

Better to ask Deerfly than me!


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> > JRH,
> >
> > Ditch the rocket science, teach me to catch Tarpon and we'll talk about boat construction.  All over a cold one without holders.
> 
> ...


In that case the rocket science is back in.   Just for deerfly though.


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## LoneRanger (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

good thread.




L.R.


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## Seek_Hunt386 (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

Sounds like Bob knows his stuff!!


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## greyhound (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> This is Glades Craft's claim:
> 
> "The Epoxy Advantage:
> 
> ...


------------------------------------------------

There is no debate about bouyancy. If I make a box (ok a large box about skiff sized) out of an epoxy skin or make it out of steel, what matters is the volume displaced, which is simply is a matter of its weight. Make the same shape out of any material, fill it with anything you want so they all weigh exactly the same and they will float at exactly the same level. Sorry, Gladescraft, that's crap.

If they are refering to the density attributes of an epoxy/glass laminate verus an ester/glass laminate, that's a different story. However, as far as a boat floating is concerned, it is irrelevant. I can make an epoxy laminate hull that weighs less than the ester hull at the same strength, but I've reduced the weight, thus floating higher.

Bob makes some great points about epoxy, and it is the ultimate laminating material from a strength point. However, there are some very detrimental effects epoxies can have on people. Its not the epoxy itself, but the amines in the epoxy catalyst can be very sensitive to people. It's like getting poison ivy and once you get sensitized to it, its usually a lifelong thing thereafter.

I still like pre-preg epoxies heat cured under vacuum....still the ultimate and more consistent than the current infusion craze.


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## Weedy (Dec 11, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*

So, if I fill my boat with foam it will float higher, right????? 
Bob,
I must say that you have alot of information with you, I can't say that I agree with all or even a few points, but non the less, you have some valid points. When you talk about the builders like you do, what do you have to compare it to? There is a very big difference from building a few parts in your garage/work shop to a full scale production plant.
Weedy


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*



> So, if I fill my boat with foam it will float higher, right?????
> Bob,
> I must say that you have alot of information with you, I can't say that I agree with all or even a few points, but non the less, you have some valid points. When you talk about the builders like you do, what do you have to compare it to? There is a very big difference from building a few parts in your garage/work shop to a full scale production plant.
> Weedy


Having been part of the team designing the world largest carbon fiber composite structures (at the time), and part of the team commissioning the worlds largest autoclave (at the time), I agree there's a big difference in making filament wound, carbon fiber, space shuttle rocket booster segments and making kayak paddle components. But then again there are a lot more similarities than differences. 

Most of my experience is with pre-preg carbon fiber laminates, with honeycomb cores that were vacuum bagged and autoclaved in an inert nitrogen atmosphere. This process is still one of the preferred ways for making parts with the highest strength to weight ratios, but it's also the most expensive. This was an around the clock production environment. We had a gantry robot that used water a water jet cutter to cut the kevlar, carbon fiber, s-2 fiberglass and core materials. 

We weren't building boats :'(

If I had an autoclave, this is what I'd being doing, but I'll settle for room temperature resin infusion for now.

You have to start somewhere. Mistakes will be made. Improvements tested and implemented.


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## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: GladesCraft Construction(Split from Gordon Thr*


If your bagging/autoclaving the epoxy it seems to me you'd be better off to infuse the epoxy to get the same benifit or almost as close. 
I'm gonna build a Chickee and infuse it with epoxy to see what gains will come from it... I've always liked trying new/different things so this will be another chance to try something new. Were already "tinting" w/gel during fusion to get a cool finish. 

I can't speak for other builders but I like knowing we are " ahead of others" in the marine industry as most have blinders and continue to mass produce and hope to deal w/isues later rather than spending the money for quality materials and build something that will last 10x longer than the norm. Lastly, I'd like to add someone can use the best stuff out there but, if your using it wrong...how can it be the best?  

Kevin


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