# Hell's Bay Holding, Inc. vs. Fisher Beavertail MFG



## The_Skiff_Shop (Oct 28, 2008)

> United States District Court - Middle District of Florida, Orlando Division
> Case No. 6:08-CV-1963-ORL-18-KRS
> Complaint filed 11-20-08
> Nature of suit: Patent infringement
> ...


Even more if you were representing HB. ;D ;D ;D


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

Is a copy of the complaint online somewhere? Can I go down to the court house and request a copy ;D


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

No thanks, Ron! That patent law stuff is for nerds. ;D

Tom, you have a PM.

To get access to the federal docket through PACER you have to have an account and it costs something silly like $0.08 per page to download the documents.


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## brew1891 (Dec 10, 2006)

That patent law stuff is for uber smart people.

It's no fun to me if someone aint facing jail time ;D


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

> It's no fun to me if someone aint facing jail time ;D


You scare me........


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

The ad in the middle of this page is a BT ad.  That made me laugh.

This makes me laugh too:












Hmm, nice letter B for your logo.  That looks familiar....











P.S. The above views are for my Internet forum entertainment only.  I couldn't care less what BT or HB does as a business.


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## phishphood (Dec 15, 2006)

Does this mean I can pick up a BT on the cheap?


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

> The ad in the middle of this page is a BT ad.  That made me laugh.
> 
> This makes me laugh too:
> 
> ...


Looks like they made 10% change to that logo


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

> Does this mean I can pick up a BT on the cheap?


Yes but you can't bring it to JB's anymore ;D


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

only Florida manufactured boats are cool at JB's


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

They are even copying money!http://www.beavertailskiffs.com/

Is there such a thing as a pathalogical copier? :-?

This lawsuit is BS! see the major differences here;

Hell's Bay 17.8'

Beavertail skiff 17.75'

Hah!

http://www.hellsbayboatworks.com/professional.html
http://www.beavertailskiffs.com/ospreyspecs.html


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

> > only Florida manufactured boats are cool at JB's
> 
> 
> And it's all about being "cool"


I knew you would respond to my post, I knew you would find some reason to invalidate my post just like you did on all the other HB/bt threads ;D


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## MATT (Apr 30, 2007)

> > only Florida manufactured boats are cool at JB's
> 
> 
> And it's all about being "cool"



I don't know what's cool, But I do know it's good to see Captn Ron back and posting........you were missed


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

> > > > only Florida manufactured boats are cool at JB's
> > >
> > >
> > > And it's all about being "cool"
> ...


you dont even know billy so dont refrense him, I could care less about how Cool my boat is or how cool i am, I was more concerend about what people said about my gheenoe then my Watermen, its a boat.

You can try and act like i think im to good because I have a HB but, thats not me and you know that.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

If we're going for patent infringement,
take a close look at the old challenger hulls upside down.
Cut the shear down and you have a hells bay or a beavertail.

Now about engines, enough with the kiddy toys...
run a blown, blueprinted, ported Chevy 283
with a borg-warner transmission and an Arneson surface drive.
Ever see a 120 foot solid mud roostertail....


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

> > > > > > only Florida manufactured boats are cool at JB's
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And it's all about being "cool"
> ...


I made several statments in my youth but, You are kinda funny the way you knock me down by telling me I am the all knowing. I know I dont know the half of it but, you can keep trying to make me seem like i have big head. I could care less what kinda boat you own and I could care less about what boat i own.


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## The_Skiff_Shop (Oct 28, 2008)

> No thanks, Ron!  That patent law stuff is for nerds.   ;D
> 
> Tom, you have a PM.
> 
> To get access to the federal docket through PACER you have to have an account and it costs something silly like $0.08 per page to download the documents.


Interesting reading.

I think we should start a poll for this. ;D ;D ;D

As I would expect, HBII/Peterson, look like they have a decent case. :-/

JRH,
Looks like BT can continue to manufacture till a verdict? Any insight? I'm guessing we're talking 1 to 2 years? :-/ :-/


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

Keep this on topic... if Ron and Tanner want to have a "male rooster" fight. Take it somewhere else. 

Management.


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

I had a conversation with someone else who had an interesting thought. If HB can win this law suit then some other boat manufactures who are highly copied but lack the resources to go first may also benefit. :


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## The_Skiff_Shop (Oct 28, 2008)

> I had a conversation with someone else who had an interesting thought. If HB can win this law suit then some other boat manufactures who are highly copied but lack the resources to go first may also benefit.  :


Yeah, kind of what I was thinking the same ( in between getting under Tanners skin ;D ;D ;D)

Posted a new and original hull design for someone last week on another forum. Someone asked if it was "borrowed". The boat they suggested might be "borrowed" has been "improved" by other manufacturers.


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## The_Volfish (Jan 22, 2008)

Fisher should have copied a noe. No boat, no crime...


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## Flyline (Mar 3, 2008)

[smiley=popcorn2.gif] [smiley=popcorn2.gif] [smiley=popcorn2.gif] [smiley=popcorn2.gif] [smiley=popcorn2.gif] here we go again! : : :


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

http://www.bizbuysell.com/listing-information-q411197.html


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> Keep this on topic... if Ron and Tanner want to have a "male rooster" fight. Take it somewhere else.
> 
> Management.


Can I have the feathers of the loser? I need some hackles and such.


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

> > Keep this on topic... if Ron and Tanner want to have a "male rooster" fight. Take it somewhere else.
> >
> > Management.
> 
> ...


arnt all roosters males? ;D


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## The_Volfish (Jan 22, 2008)

I'll bet this guy has stories to tell.

Capt. Jim Dismore. 320.573.1961. 320.217.3376 (cell)

He would be top of the list for depo if I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express...


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

Well this is some huge news, I hate to see bt go down the tubes but, it's a sure sign times are tough.


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> > > Keep this on topic... if Ron and Tanner want to have a "male rooster" fight. Take it somewhere else.
> > >
> > > Management.
> >
> ...


Good boy!! You learnt somethin in school. Never seen a bald rooster. ;D


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

> > > > Keep this on topic... if Ron and Tanner want to have a "male rooster" fight. Take it somewhere else.
> > > >
> > > > Management.
> > >
> ...


um i think Ron might be getting there ;D


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## B.Lee (Apr 29, 2008)

> Can I have the feathers of the winner? I need some hackles and such.


Wouldn't you be looking for the loser's feathers?  The winner should get to keep theirs per unofficial cockfighting rules, I think.

Interesting find on the boat builder for sale...:-/


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> > Can I have the feathers of the winner? I need some hackles and such.
> 
> 
> Wouldn't you be looking for the loser's feathers?  The winner should get to keep theirs per unofficial cockfighting rules, I think.
> ...


Good catch. Fixed it. Thanks. I am not smot!!!


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## IRLyRiser (Feb 14, 2007)

> > > > > only Florida manufactured boats are cool at JB's
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And it's all about being "cool"
> ...


Tanner has a Gordon.


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## Flyline (Mar 3, 2008)

> > > > > > only Florida manufactured boats are cool at JB's
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And it's all about being "cool"
> ...


X2, he has a Gordon waterman with HB sticker on it and he wish it made from "Hellsbay" ;D


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## KOBY (Jul 18, 2007)

D.O.A. lost their suit over the Scrimps.....now tons of companies copy it, is this the same type of suit.....? If HB loses, does every wanna be boat builder start splashin....?


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

You have an excellent point. My guess is that they would not have filed the suit unless they were extremely confident in their case.

Someone (off forum) mentioned that there was some recent changes in the law that improved HB's ability to pursue a case like this. Anyone what those changes were and have the ability to explain it to us laymen  [smiley=dancing3.gif]


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

> X2, he has a Gordon waterman with HB sticker on it and he wish it made from "Hellsbay" ;D


no i got the boat i want...


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## roto77777 (Jan 12, 2008)

Hmmmm Let's review....

First they takeover Gordon, now they sue Beavertail....
Seems like it is eliminate the competition time for the company with the deepest pockets.

Looks like ECC is going to get a lot of business....or get sued (or both).


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## Bill_Nosan (Dec 14, 2008)

Just dropped in to correct Tanner's spelling. And, to peruse this thread.
Will be interesting to say the least.

Hello, and beers on me.


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

welcome Bill, you are a great addition.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

Bill,

Good morning sir. Thanks for dropping by our litter... err... "micro" park of the internet. ;D

Sam Adams Winter Lager... thanks.

Cheers
Capt. Jan

My .002 on this topic. 

1. It will provide for years of internet fodder. 
2. In time every opinion will be expressed.
3. "IF" and this will be a big if the case goes to trial it will take years and cost both companies a boat load of money.
4. If a ruling is established it will create case precedent for future lawsuits

Cheers


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

Settled.

Rumored settlement terms:
- BT pays HB a lump sum.
- BT agrees to destroy copied molds.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

would prefer facts over rumor.


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

rumors are so much more fun


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

> would prefer facts over rumor.



You are connected in the skiff world. Make some calls and see if I'm right.


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## East_Cape (Jun 3, 2008)

Heard something close to that...
However, I was read an e-mail while I was driving on sat. supposedly from BT saying they got PAID from HB and the $$$ they got was good.
Again, not sure if any is true but it would be nice to see the "right" guy in this came out on top...
Then I got a call tonight saying BT had to pay HB


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

Kev,

There would only be 2 scenarios under which HB would have had to pay BT, and both are highly, highly unlikely. 

- As part of the settlement, HB bought BT out. 
- There was some agreement that HB would drop the lawsuit, and HB would pay BT their attorneys fees. 


As of this morning no notice of settlement has been filed with the Court which is why it's all still rumors, but whoever told you HB had to pay BT is likely mistaken.


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## East_Cape (Jun 3, 2008)

Thank you Jason. I agree as well w/you...
However, when the e-mail was read to me it made me laugh as I don't believe ANYTHING BT ever says. I truly hope HB won the suit as it will set a case for future splashers out there.

Just my thoughts only.
Kevin


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

There will be a press release soon. I will get facts ASAP.

Cheers
Capt. Jan


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

Hope the right guy prevails...


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> Hope the right guy prevails...


Mark Fisher?


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

No I hope he never builds a skiff again.


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> No I hope he never builds a skiff again.


I know. I read your signature.


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

Notice of voluntary dismissal with prejudice filed yesterday.
So it settled.


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## flyfisheraa573 (Jun 26, 2008)

What the heck does that mean exactly? Who has the prejudice?

While we are on this subject, and to clarify ahead of time, I really don't have any feelings, negatively towards either company. I like both of their lines of boats. The question is this....what exactly defines intellectual pirating? 

This may need to be a topic within itself, but please know that I am asking the question in a serious way. I mean I can understand the whole Gheenoe knock-off being made by people that used to make them for Gheenoe as pirating. But even at the same time, would you consider every Jon boat manufacturer as a pirate? 

I mostly fly fish in rivers, and I'm just now getting into flats fishing. But I have a drift boat, and I can say that most drift boats look like the original McKenzie style drift boats, and a lot of drift boats look almost exactly alike, same size, etc. What defines them is the options and quality, and of course preference. 

I guess my point is, that anyone that takes an idea and improves (in their opinion, not the popular opinion) is guilty of intellectual pirating. Their idea is not per se original.

Sorry for "kind of" derailing this, but this is a case of intellectual pirating. Did my question make sense, btw?


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

> What the heck does that mean exactly?  Who has the prejudice?



It's a legal term of art, which means HB does not have the right to refile the lawsuit now that they have dismissed it. It is normally done after the parties have agreed to settle a lawsuit.


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

Rumors are now fact.


_For Immediate Release Hell’s Bay agrees to settlement in its splashing lawsuit against Beavertail Skiffs Florida boat company takes action against patent and trade dress infringement TITUSVILLE, Fla., 

--- Since launching its anti-splashing lawsuit five months ago in protecting its distinctive hull designs from being copied, Hell’s Bay has reached an out-of-court settlement with Beavertail Skiffs Hell’s Bay Holdings, Inc. filed the complaint against Fisher Beavertail Manufacturing this past November alleging Fisher Beavertail had splashed Hell’s Bay’s Waterman models. Though Fisher Beavertail Manufacturing is an Avon, Minnesota, based corporation, the lawsuit alleged Beavertail built, distributed, marketed and sold the copied skiffs in Florida injurious to the Hell’s Bay designed and manufactured boats headquartered in Titusville. The suit was filed in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida, Orlando Division. Hell’s Bay had asked for a jury trial before a settlement was reached. Through its Orlando based intellectual property attorneys of Beusse Wolter Sanks Mora, & Maire, P.A., Hell’s Bay brought five counts against Beavertail which included design patent infringement, trade dress infringement, unfair and deceptive trade practices and violations of Florida’s anti dilution statute. A decade ago Hell’s Bay was formed to create a new style of shallow water fishing skiff that incorporated many new design ideas that now give Hell’s Bay a distinctive look. That look has now become the trade dress for a Hell’s Bay skiff. 

For the trade dress portion of the lawsuit Hell’s Bay also included photographs of the unique hulls of its high-end performance flats boats for comparison to the hulls it alleged were copied, produced, marketed and sold by Beavertail under its Osprey, B2 and BTX models. Though the exact terms of the settlement were not disclosed, Chris Peterson, Hell’s Bay’s president, was elated with the results of the outcome which included *Hell’s Bay receiving monetary compensation and that the current Beavertail designs would be discontinued and the molds destroyed.* “While no liability was found or admitted in the settlement we feel that the results of the settlement should show the marine industry that marine intellectual property rights can be protected,” said Peterson. “It can take some companies well over a hundred thousand dollars and up to a year to develop a design, create its tooling, test it, refine it, and do more on-the-water testing to bring it to market,” said Peterson. 

“But to splash a hull, it can take just days to copy and a minimal amount of money to produce a boat.” Kevin W. Wimberly, one of Hell’s Bay’s attorneys said, “Hell’s Bay has been diligent in not only obtaining protection for its intellectual property portfolio but also in asserting that protection. “Vessel hull designs may be protected in several ways, including by obtaining vessel hull registrations with the Copyright Office, obtaining design patents under the Patent Act, and via registered or common law trade dress under the Lanham Act. Despite this apparent overlapping protection, vessel hull designs are often thought to inhabit an intellectual property gray area due to the intricacies of the law and past precedent. “While the specific strategy used for protecting a business’s intellectual property portfolio may vary, market conditions and the ever-present threat of shortcut-seeking market entrants make the need for some form of protection plan vitally important.”

Peterson further explained, “One key portion of our lawsuit was the trade dress infringement. Registered or not, trade dress is a protectable right. It’s the unique, distinctive design and look of a product,” said Peterson who gave as an example competitive soft drink bottlers trying to use the styling of the famous green Coca Cola bottle. “We are known, especially among owners of shallow water boats, for the distinctive look of our boats which include the curvature of the bow hull along with the bold splash chine. “Our boat designs are covered by design patents and our distinctive trade dress. We feel that other manufacturers have copied our designs and we will be evaluating those infringements as we decide to go after other builders who we feel copied us,” Peterson concluded.

Hell’s Bay Marine, which has eight models of shallow-water skiffs in the 14’ to 18’ range, is located in Titusville, Fla., and its web site is hellsbayboatworks.com. Peterson can be contacted at 321-383-8223 or via e-mail to [email protected] ### (4/3/2009) Pete Johnson, Johnson Communications, Inc. Scottsdale, Arizona
e-mail: [email protected] phone: 480-951-3654_


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## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

Justice have been served.


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## Capt_jaclmack (Apr 5, 2009)

Timing is everything, I just put my 8 month old beavertail b2 up 4 sale yesterday. My take on this it make's the beavertail worth more why? Becuase its the same hull as the Hb this is the reason HB filled suit in the 1st place , I love the boat but never use it and buying a lake and bay .If anyone is intrested in the beavertail its like new condition and has everything you could ever want on it. my number is 239 289 8908 or email me [email protected]  Paid 32000.00 asking 26000.00 obo it has over 6000.00 in options, under 40 hrs on engine warranty til 2011.


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## pescador72 (Aug 6, 2008)

BT website has no models except "The Vengeance." Hopefully everyone including the consumers can benefit from all of this. I for one, would like to see BT continue to make skiffs, maybe their Vengeance might bring something new and fresh to the market. I hate to think people are going to lose their jobs, hopefully some lessons have been learn and everyone can look forward to new things.


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

There are no pics of the Vengeance yet because BT has not had a chance to splash ECC's Vantage yet. ;D


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## backwaterbandits (Dec 15, 2006)

Good one!!! ;D


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## irlshallow (Oct 16, 2008)

We feel that other manufacturers have copied our designs and we will be evaluating those infringements as we decide to go after other builders who we feel copied us,” Peterson concluded.

Interesting last line....but I can't think of anything else out there that's copied from HB. BT was one thing but are they going to claim they were the first skiff with a pointed bow next?


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> but I can't think of anything else out there that's copied from HB.


Havent you ever noticed how much the Terrapin Dragonfly looks like a Gladeskiff? Not saying they splashed one, but HB certainly would have an arguement.


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## irlshallow (Oct 16, 2008)

Ok on that one, guess I wasn't paying close enough attention to the Terrapin banner ad....


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## mrbacklash (Nov 1, 2008)

Maybe Bentley should sue for their logo that they coppied also


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

Maybe.


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## Parrothead305 (Dec 3, 2007)

Ugly... Del arbol caido todos hacen fuego. Just not right.
Splash or not the quality (of the splash) was far better than HB.
my 0.02

Raf
Parrothead305


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

> Del arbol caido todos hacen fuego.


literal translation: From a fallen tree, everyone makes fire...

the concept being expressed: Taking advantage when they're down.

 I get your point.


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## Mills (Apr 18, 2009)

This seems to have been overlooked here:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OEKdWs_Y-g[/media]


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## East_Cape (Jun 3, 2008)

It seems he got his side to tell but there's still some lies in it however. Also, you got both saying they got paid from the other party so IMHO no one was a winner but both lost. BT would've been better off w/a better edit job on the video OR just issue a written press release..the video shows a side of him/company that might turn off buyer's.


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## TomFL (Oct 2, 2007)

> It seems he got his side to tell but there's still some lies in it however. Also, you got both saying they got paid from the other party so  IMHO no one was a winner but both lost. BT would've been better off w/a better edit job on the video OR just issue a written press release..the video shows a side of him/company that might turn off buyer's.


I know nothing about this case, and really couldn't care one way or the other as I'm not into that style of skiff for my type of fishing. 

But after seeing that vid I gotta say he looks legit to me, and it's certainly hard to call them lies when the facts are shown from the actual settlement paperwork. The copy of the check is the arrow that dropped the prey in my book. 

Also, I didn't find it standoffish at all. I thought it was honest, direct, and backed up by good evidence. I thought he came across very well, and certainly not like someone who looks like they came out on the short end of the stick in big a legal case. 

In fact, in my mind after hearing that and seeing the check, if I were in the skiff market I'd HAVE to consider a beavertail now that the case is done, even if I wasn't including them in my search prior. The check that was written will have to be recouped somewhere, so in my mind if I were a potential future customer of HB I see myself paying even more for it now than I would for a BT as HB is gonna have to recoup the check amount one skiff at a time. In today's boat market I don't know how that's gonna fly. Especially when your competitor now has a new line of hulls out and is debt free so they can maneuver with pricing if need be. 

That would certainly put off any potential new customers for HB IMHO. 

Having a company in today's market operating at 0% debt levels gives a company flexibility, an upbeat attitude and undoubtedly a better finished product than someone who owes out a ton or at the very least just had to write a big fat check to his competitors. 

I'd be ecstatic if my competitors paid for all my R&D and my marketing to boot. 

Time will tell how this all pans out, but it sure looks to me like BT is in the driver's seat right now. 

My $.02

-T


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## East_Cape (Jun 3, 2008)

The facts I was talking about Tom was that the skiff side of the company "was for sale" as I saw the listing w/my own eyes as well as plenty of other people before they took it down. Secondly they paid the company in TN to build the molds and the skiffs as the USCG HIN database tells me so...also they don't build, rather they only rigg...again, the USCG HIN database tell me and anybody who wants to look. Then later the molds were moved up to Carsten's where they were later built. Also they didn't "rigg" 411 sold skiffs as the data base says differently of registrations. Also, that ck. could've been made out for $20 bucks for all we know. And laslty, I'm thinking that video breached the argeement they both agreed on and I'm sure HB could sue again if they feel up to it...
The video was good for him to tell his side of the story but like I said, the USCG list/tell differently. 
Again, this is good for all the consumers out there as i've been a big supporter of choice but I've also been a big suppoter of showing how you build and actually build your own skiffs too! Not being harsh here, rather letting what I know come forth. Cool?

My .02

Tight Lines Gang.
~ Kevin


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## salt_life (Apr 7, 2009)

[smiley=devil10.gif] nice video !Well spoken and a touch of kiss my in his voice.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

> This seems to have been overlooked here:


This site has a proper section for Industry News and press releases... Both points of view are posted there.

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=Ind-News

Cheers
Capt. Jan


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

> [smiley=devil10.gif] nice video !Well spoken and a touch of kiss my in his voice.



I guess we all hear different things. To me Mark came off as a well practiced con man. I did not appreciate it when he said; _"a lot of misdirection mis-truths flat out lies and people speaking behind a computer screen that have never owned a business have never been in any type of litigation and just don't know a whole lot about the process or have any business acumen in general so that is where a lot of the information comes from and that's why its so non credible when it comes to the facts"_

IMHO, he established that we are a bunch of idiots and he is the only one worth listening. Classic con man set up. 

BTW, I have stayed out of this until now. Because of that video, I am now personally offend by Mark. Why? Because I spent years building this forum as a credible place. I will not stand by and let someone disparage our integrity. There are legal professionals, business men and others with good input here. That's not to say that there is some garbage every once and a while but that does does get sorted out.

Just remember Mark Fisher is the one who has not establish himself around here. No track record in a community this big? Why would that be? So when you watch the video carefully consider how much is spinning the facts and how much is trustworthy information. 

Good night.


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## TomFL (Oct 2, 2007)

Just so I'm clear - as I mentioned I really know nothing about either side of this case nor am I interested in the outcome - why all the bad blood against this guy and BT??

It's been said on this forum he splashed a HB hull, but in the vid he makes it clear that the hull wasn't even a HB hull, it was designed and owned by someone else. So he splashed something that HB copied too????

Just curious..

-T


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## flyfisheraa573 (Jun 26, 2008)

No offense meant to anyone here....but I'm going to have to stand in the same place TomFL is here. 

I can understand the "splashing" or stealing of "intellectual" whatever...but, what I don't understand is the what seems like pure hate for this company.

I mean is this a "Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge" thing? If so, that's cool, but I'm not sure I follow the true "tone" meant by some peoples postings.

As far as Mark being a con-man...I'm going to have to disagree. And as most people on here, that is my opinion. What I am basing my opinion on is the following...I contacted Mark or I guess I should say BT. Granted it was by email, but Mark, not some secretary or point person, or attorney, but Mark, emailed me back. His correspondence seemed pretty sincere, and very straight forward. Simple as that..maybe I am naive, but I don't think I am.

As for his video...I think it was pretty cool for him to come out with that. He seemed very straight forward, and pretty level headed, especially considering his name, and his company just got drug through the court system and I'm sure a lot of different message boards.

All in all, I have "no dog in this fight" but, I will say, that if I ever buy a skiff, I know which one it will be, or which one will be at the top of my short list.


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

this has been some of the best free entertainment on the forums in a while ;D


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## costefishnt (Dec 11, 2006)

booorrriiinnnggg.


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> I contacted Mark or I guess I should say BT.  Granted it was by email, but Mark, not some secretary or point person, or attorney, but Mark, emailed me back.  His correspondence seemed pretty sincere, and very straight forward.


Just to give you a little perspective, if you email Hells Bay about a boat, Chris Peterson will email you back and personally call you. If you email ECC about a boat, Kevin Fenn will email you and personally call you. I guess what I am saying is that Mark Fisher emailing you back isnt something special or groundbreaking. Especially in this economy, it is what it is. 2010 is gonna be a bad year................ [smiley=beavis-bang-your-head.gif]


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## TomFL (Oct 2, 2007)

Just because my curiosity has been piqued with this topic, I state the obvious: 

NOBODY HAS GIVEN A SOLID REASON FOR ALL THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN POSTED. NOT EVEN ONE ABOUT THE TRUTH OF THE HULL SPLASHING ISSUE WHICH HIS VIDEO SEEMS TO PUT TO BED.

All those complaining that he splashed a HB hull, well apparently it wasn't even a HB hull, so exactly who is splashing hulls here, BT or HB or both?????? :-?

Just out of curiousity, how much does HB charge for their splashed version vs what BT was charging for theirs? 

So what really gives here?? Did this guy sleep with all your sisters? Take your lunch money? Put a laxative in your brownies before a camping trip? 

I don't understand it. What gives? 

If it's just as simple as the beat-to-death Riverhawk vs Gheenoe thing, somebody please have the wherewithall to say it and let's put this whole thing to rest and move on. 

I mean, the guy builds a nice looking boat (same hull as HB apparantly). He apparently didn't splash anything that HB didn't splash either (If they both have the same hull and neither designed it then who splashed what??). I haven't heard he took a zillion $$'s in deposits and split town. He seems like an honest, knowledgeable business owner who seems to be getting a bad rap over something that doesn't exist. 

Again, I'm not in the market for a boat like this. I'm not interested in either a HB or a BT in the least bit. Hell I probably wouldn't know either one if I passed it on the water. But let's be clear about what the issues are or leave this be. 

-T


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## pescador72 (Aug 6, 2008)

Mel, I would venture to say, is having one hell of a good year. I have not taken any side or have any interest, but I also sense the hate against Mark. 

But now that the suit is over, let's see what Mark and BT can do now? Choices and competition is always good for the consumer....

BTW, I am just a simple working stiff that is addicted to fishing, I would gladly take my PAID for Copperhead over any HB, Dolphin, or BT any day. ;D


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

Tom. To answer your question the best I can. Mark technically prob. didnt splash the hulls. But the company he had make them obviously did. If you pay someone to kill someone else, you are still a murderer. Or even if he didnt know, he's still guilty by association. If you have ever spent any time on the Watermans, or B1, B2's etc., the similarities become obvious and IMO impossible to be coincidental. All that aside, Beavertail made a pretty nice boat. I am sure thier new boat the Vengeance (Vantage?) is going to be nice. Time will tell. I hope this helps.


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

> But let's be clear about what the issues are or leave this be.




There are no issues remaining.  The litigation settled.


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## fatalbert43 (Dec 13, 2006)

Funny thing to me is that he states who built the molds.....................................But, never once mentions any development effort to make the plug..........................the thing the mold is made from. :-/

That just strikes me as odd. If I designed a boat hull from scratch I would think that you could expound on the development of the plug, the tweaking of the plug, anything like that.

It just seems odd to me......... :-/


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> Funny thing to me is that he states who built the molds.....................................But, never once mentions any development effort to make the plug..........................the thing the mold is made from. :-/
> 
> That just strikes me as odd. If I designed a boat hull from scratch I would think that you could expound on the development of the plug, the tweaking of the plug, anything like that.
> 
> It just seems odd to me......... :-/


Refer to my previous statement......... ;D


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## TomFL (Oct 2, 2007)

> Tom. To answer your question the best I can. Mark technically prob. didnt splash the hulls. But the company he had make them obviously did. If you pay someone to kill someone else, you are still a murderer. Or even if he didnt know, he's still guilty by association. If you have ever spent any time on the Watermans, or B1, B2's etc., the similarities become obvious and IMO impossible to be coincidental. All that aside, Beavertail made a pretty nice boat. I am sure thier new boat the Vengeance (Vantage?) is going to be nice. Time will tell. I hope this helps.


Good point, did not think of it from that angle. 

-T


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> > Tom. To answer your question the best I can. Mark technically prob. didnt splash the hulls. But the company he had make them obviously did. If you pay someone to kill someone else, you are still a murderer. Or even if he didnt know, he's still guilty by association. If you have ever spent any time on the Watermans, or B1, B2's etc., the similarities become obvious and IMO impossible to be coincidental. All that aside, Beavertail made a pretty nice boat. I am sure thier new boat the Vengeance (Vantage?) is going to be nice. Time will tell. I hope this helps.
> 
> 
> Good point, did not think of it from that angle.
> ...


Thats what I'm here for ;D


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## phishphood (Dec 15, 2006)

Well, that settles that. I'm getting me one of those Vantageances. Anybody know where I can get it at? ;D


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