# Fly Tying Question



## flysalt060 (Aug 5, 2012)

Sam looper makes a deer hair spook fly and he might have a non articulated sub surface walker


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## Fliesbynight (Mar 23, 2020)

@LowReynolds# , do you mean a swimming action or more of a "Walk the Dog" Zarra Spook kind of thing?

For a swimming action, there are various methods. Bob Popovics created a fly called Pop-Lips, which uses sheep fleece as the body material lip is built using silicone. I don't have any currently tied up but here is a picture from the net. These are effective but can be hard to tune for straight swimming.


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## LowReynolds# (Mar 23, 2021)

Great fly. Yes, movement like a soft plastic jerkbait. Would have to be slightly negative buoyant, but with a lot of left/right motion but only a foot or two below the surface. Looks like the lip on this fly would make it wiggle nicely. I'll have to check out Sam's fly. Txs.


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## Flyboy (Aug 26, 2019)

Jerk changer- new fly from Blane


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## karstopo (Nov 28, 2019)

Casey Smartt’s Deadhead Minnow moves a lot like a Paul Brown Corky lure under water. Sort of the sick, injured mullet movement, but not such a rhythmic movement like something like a plug with a hard plastic bill. The Deadhead minnow is more or less barely negatively buoyant so it sort of hovers instead of jigging up and down or moving so much in a straight line. Unless you have fished a corky lure, you may not understand the motion I’m talking about.

I haven’t tied a Casey Smartt dead head minnow in a long time as they are too much, for me, of a pain to mess with. Steve Farrar Blend Baitfish and Gartside Soft Hackle Streamers fill the role of barely/slowly negatively buoyant hovering baitfish, work just as good if not better, and are much more simple ties, IMO.


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## flysalt060 (Aug 5, 2012)

You will probably have to fish subsurface walking fly on a intermediate line. Composition of head and how it is trimmed along with loop knot will get the action. There might be a single hook, wiggle fly tie, on fly fish the ozarks YouTube channel.


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## Featherbrain (Nov 5, 2021)

Jake Villwock has a fly called the roamer. I think it’ll do what you’re wanting.


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## goose_ (Jun 3, 2021)

As mentioned above game changer and it's variations may be close to what you want. In my experience they have a lot of left-right movement.


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## AZ_squid (Mar 14, 2018)

This fly will walk the dog sub surface. Just play around with hook weight and how much foam you use. Those two factors will change how deep the fly will sink/suspend.


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## fishnpreacher (Jul 28, 2018)

I did a quick search but couldn't find what I was looking for. I remember seeing a Fish Skull type mask that fit on the head of the hook that had a small lip on it similar to a crank bait. This would give you the swimming action. I've also seen a mask with a cupped face for a chugger type fly. I wish I could remember where I saw them.


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## LowReynolds# (Mar 23, 2021)

Thanks all for the input. Looks like the key is the shape of the head (Gamechanger and Roamer) and some "stiffness" on the fibers at the head so they can help move the fly. I currently don't use UV glue, but might have to invest and play with the shape of the head until I get the action. Agreed that an intermediate line and a loop knot will help. Found this tank test on the Gamechanger. Pretty cool.


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## brody3112 (Feb 18, 2021)

LowReynolds# said:


> There is some really great fly tying experience on this forum. Anyone know how to create a fly that will move left/right under the surface. A gurgler can sometimes do left/right on the surface, but most flies just go up/down when you strip them. Anyone know how to tie something like that?


Look up how to hollow-tie materials (will create air pockets/neutral buoyancy) and also Buford heads (with deerhair), which were designed for musky flies but work well in smaller versions for snook and tarpon. The stacked head creates a walk-the-dog subsurface action on the pause.


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## mfdevin (Jun 18, 2020)

Can’t seem to find the original video that I based my fly off, and I believe I deleted photos of the fly - but I had found a craw pattern that used a 3mm foam sheet back, that was segmented as if to create the exoskeleton, weighted in the front, but then the foam came down below the eye of your hook, to create that lip you would have on a jerk bait. As you strip the fly the lip pushes it further subsurface, and also give a wagging motion. I used it successfully on smallmouth and LMB last year, but haven’t tied any in a while. I’m sure something similar could be adapted for your needs, so long as you’re not wanting to sit on bottom


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## Denduke (Oct 31, 2018)

Kinda like LazyIkes. Larry Tullis makes wigglers but not “walk the dog” if that helps. Plastic lips for a crankin fly.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Featherbrain said:


> Jake Villwock has a fly called the roamer. I think it’ll do what you’re wanting.


I like the fly and will try to tie some but it's hard for me to watch this guy. 2 wraps of thread maybe 4, he UV's some but one fish and that things coming apart 
Just me


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

There's a fine line between fly or lure on some of these


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## Denduke (Oct 31, 2018)

Walking plugs typically float with tail down to create the effect. I tried couple of things. Only real walker was the deer hair bug with blade added to rear to make it work. Subsurface maybe sparse deer hair tie that slow sink with the same rear overbalance. Kinda lost interest after struggling. Good luck fellas...


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## Donovan (Dec 27, 2021)

learn how to make deer heads ie drunk and disorderly, muddled minnow, sex dungeon, zoo cougar, rag dolly are all patterns with deer hair heads that have a “s“ action. Really any of the modern trout stuff can be adapted to flies tied for the salt. the brushes are great for heads too.


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## JDiballa_2002 (11 mo ago)

I like to tie flies with deer hair heads. If you tie on the right amount of hair they will jerk side to side and swim just below the surface


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## Crazy Larry (Nov 8, 2017)

I didn't see him mentioned so I'll add Gunnar Brammer to this thread. He's a great tier and his instructional videos are excellent. He has several videos on youtube about head design and weighting for different fly actions including side to side movement. I think the Jerk flies is what you're interested in (get your coffee and comfortable seat):


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## LowReynolds# (Mar 23, 2021)

JDiballa_2002 said:


> I like to tie flies with deer hair heads. If you tie on the right amount of hair they will jerk side to side and swim just below the surface


Really great information and a lot to look into, thanks. I wonder how durable some of the flies would be made with the UV glued fibers to shape the head? The deer hair would be more durable, I think. Are you talking about spinning and shaping the deer head like a Borski Slider?


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## JDiballa_2002 (11 mo ago)

LowReynolds# said:


> Really great information and a lot to look into, thanks. I wonder how durable some of the flies would be made with the UV glued fibers to shape the head? The deer hair would be more durable, I think. Are you talking about spinning and shaping the deer head like a Borski Slider?


Yes but I don’t use any added weight. I also don’t use glue in the fibers because they need to get a little water logged to get under the surface of the water. They are pretty durable flies with out it. Just a little glue on the thread wraps should do just fine


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## JDiballa_2002 (11 mo ago)

This is what I mean. And depending on the tail material you can get a really sweet swimming action on a fly that is only 2-2.5 inches


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## flysalt060 (Aug 5, 2012)

Forgot about Gunnar, somewhere on his YouTube channel he has a fly or 3 that can be adapted to salt. UV heads hold up good. Also Fish Mask from Flymen fish products moves water and gets movement. Good luck tying gamechangers. All that work tying and then you can ruin it trimming. There is a 5 or 6 year old video on YouTube,where Blake is tying a gamechanger and he explains trimming each section as he ties. He trims from back to front.


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## Featherbrain (Nov 5, 2021)

flysalt060 said:


> Forgot about Gunnar, somewhere on his YouTube channel he has a fly or 3 that can be adapted to salt. UV heads hold up good. Also Fish Mask from Flymen fish products moves water and gets movement. Good luck tying gamechangers. All that work tying and then you can ruin it trimming. There is a 5 or 6 year old video on YouTube,where Blake is tying a gamechanger and he explains trimming each section as he ties. He trims from back to front.


Completely agree on the game changer. I hate trimming. Pretty stressful lol. Can’t put it back when it’s gone that’s for sure.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Crazy Larry said:


> I didn't see him mentioned so I'll add Gunnar Brammer to this thread. He's a great tier and his instructional videos are excellent. He has several videos on youtube about head design and weighting for different fly actions including side to side movement. I think the Jerk flies is what you're interested in (get your coffee and comfortable seat):


Thanks for sharing. Like this OCD tier. Ordered some Tear Mender. I've tied plenty of pushers will try the thinner profile


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## Donovan (Dec 27, 2021)

You can tie the feather changer and just use the taper of the saddle, no trimming


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## kjnengr (Jan 16, 2018)

In order to get that "jerk" motion, you need a big head and a smaller tail. Gunnar Brammer's videos describe the difference in motion imparted by round/cylindrical heads vs. narrow high and tight heads.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

This is my first try at Gunnar’s jerk fly. Owner 5108, 3/0. Going to try black and purple next. That Owner hook has bend in it so it may help the action


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I received my Tear Mender glue. So far I haven’t glued my finger together. I put a tweezer on the eyes overnight and there was no sticking


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## LowReynolds# (Mar 23, 2021)

permitchaser said:


> This is my first try at Gunnar’s jerk fly. Owner 5108, 3/0. Going to try black and purple next. That Owner hook has bend in it so it may help the action


The fly looks great! Did you get out and throw it yet? Interested to see if you got the action you wanted.


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## Clamfoot (Jun 21, 2021)

LowReynolds# said:


> There is some really great fly tying experience on this forum. Anyone know how to create a fly that will move left/right under the surface. A gurgler can sometimes do left/right on the surface, but most flies just go up/down when you strip them. Anyone know how to tie something like that?


@LowReynolds# 
You might want to check out the kinky muddler tying video by Jonny King (link below) 
It's a long video but I've tied a few and they behave like you are looking for. 
I downsized them and tied them with relatively dense heads using heavier fibers than Jonny King used (he uses SF I think).
The ones I tied make a slow relatively level descent and when short stripped they dart left/right depending on how you pinch the head and tweak the hook. I tune it while I'm fishing. 
The nice thing about the long video is that it gets into detail/theory on how it works. They swim great once you get the concepts down on the vise.

good luck and Jonny, if you read this, thanks.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

LowReynolds# said:


> The fly looks great! Did you get out and throw it yet? Interested to see if you got the action you wanted.


I haven't tried it out yet. Thought about the bathtub test but may take it to my daughter's farm pond and see how it reacts. That pond is full of fish so who knows


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## Bonzo (11 mo ago)

I've seen a guy on insta make a spook style fly out of packed deer hair. just an idea.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

The Dahlberg Diver might be what you want. A variant of it is shown above in this thread. Here’s a video showing how to tie it. Deer hair requires practice to tie well but you can get decent flies to fish, if not to show in a pattern book, pretty quickly. Just don’t give up after the first couple of tries.


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## Oldsenilegoat (11 mo ago)

Clamfoot said:


> @LowReynolds#
> You might want to check out the kinky muddler tying video by Jonny King (link below)
> It's a long video but I've tied a few and they behave like you are looking for.
> I downsized them and tied them with relatively dense heads using heavier fibers than Jonny King used (he uses SF I think).
> ...


thanks for sharing that video. very interesting and adaptable to a variety of uses.


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