# Hell's Bay Marquesa v Professional



## jsnipes

Feels like this is basically a question of how often you plan to pole (and how deep) vs. use the TM or something else.

If it were me, and I was going to be poling 50% or more, I would go w the pro.


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## SomaliPirate

Get one of each to find the one you like and give me the one you don't want.


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## K3anderson

No TM? So poling? Pro.


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## lemaymiami

For the Marquesa... book a trip with C.A. Richardson - make a point of asking him not only what he does like...but also what he doesn't like about it... 

Then do the same with someone that works out of a Professional.

Good luck - so much of any skiff's character will revolve around what you want to do with the boat - and what you actually do with it... and in the end whether it actually meets your needs....

And of course, please tell your audience what you choose and why -once the dance is over.


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## Megalops

@WylanB i voted Marquesa. 

Please report back. Everyone is on pins and needles.


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## WylanB

lemaymiami said:


> For the Marquesa... book a trip with C.A. Richardson - make a point of asking him not only what he does like...but also what he doesn't like about it...
> 
> Then do the same with someone that works out of a Professional.


Hi Capt LeMay,

I have reached out to Capt C.A. on instagram, but haven't heard back. He is obviously very busy between his classes and charters. You're right though, that might be a good idea. I forgot to mention that I've never actually poled a Marquesa, so don't know how difficult that may be. 

As for the pro, I have reached out to Capt Benny Blanco. He suggested basically the same as "K3Anderson". Essentially, if you're poling 50% of the time or less, go with the Marquesa. But if you plan to pole 80% of the time or more, go with the pro. 

At this point, Im leaning towards the pro, but still anxious to hear other opinions.


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## sotilloa1078

WylanB said:


> Hi Capt LeMay,
> 
> I have reached out to Capt C.A. on instagram, but haven't heard back. He is obviously very busy between his classes and charters. You're right though, that might be a good idea. I forgot to mention that I've never actually poled a Marquesa, so don't know how difficult that may be.
> 
> As for the pro, I have reached out to Capt Benny Blanco. He suggested basically the same as "K3Anderson". Essentially, if you're poling 50% of the time or less, go with the Marquesa. But if you plan to pole 80% of the time or more, go with the pro.
> 
> At this point, Im leaning towards the pro, but still anxious to hear other opinions.


having owned a pro and fished out of a marquesa a lot, here’s my .02 

pro is a great poling skiff. Shallow draft and the 17.8 length gives you a good amount of room when you have more than 2 people. Just know when the waters get rough you’ll feel it. It will get your home every time though. Nothing ibuprofen and a stiff drink can’t fix. 

Marquesa- bigger, faster, drier, heavier. That equates to deeper draft and no where near the poling abilities of a Pro. The marquesa is heavy on the pole. Could you do do it?Absolutely, Just know you’ll have to work hard to get going into a wind and current. 

Good luck on your decision.


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## lemaymiami

After poling my old Maverick for many years I’ll bet that Marquesa would feel like a feather... 

You also might want to hook up with Armando (Sotilloa1078). I hear his new skiff will put the ones you’re considering to shame.


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## TidewateR

My buddy has a Marquesas with no trolling motor and a 90 zuke. We pole 100%, and it is no problem. I think the skiff poles just great, and I’m used to a gladeskiff type hull. In his boat, we pole through all of the shallow oyster ponds and yet cross big sloppy water to get there. If you are looking for a nice a ride and want to pole mostly, Marquesa can still be an option, depending on your draft needs. Just make sure you rig it as lightly as possible, and dont skimp on a good push pole. Another friend has a new Marquesa with a merc pro xs 115, iPilot and lithium batteries. Not as easy to pole, but again, I don’t find it bad all.

If you’re looking to get in less than 7-8” water, then you’ll have to go with the pro.


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## secretsquirrelflyfishing

I just polled my Marquesa all day yesterday into some too skinny for fish water with full fuel, trolling motor and a client and had no issues. When running home in the afternoon chop it was comfortable and dry. I’ve fished 3 people in it and it can be done. Smaller boats are only very slightly easier to pole, but they are not as good in an afternoon sea weather you are running or on the anchor along the beach. Putting more than 2 folks in narrower boats feels pretty cramped. When polling a boat generally you are creeping along quietly not pushing fast unless for Tarpon and then I would re-evaluate the no trolling motor idea because it helps when you are in 6+ feet of water.


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## ifsteve

I totally don't understand the "refuse to put a trolling motor on my skiff" crowd. Its just silly. Sure it ads weight but the draft change is not much different. And its an easy solution. Just rig it so you can remove the TM and batteries. But there are so many circumstances where a TM is such a good tool.

Now that said you are really asking us to recommend between two boats with vastly different purposes. Can you pole a Marquesa? Sure. Can you run a Pro in some big water on occasion? Sure. But like others have already said if you want a poling skiff then get the Pro. If you want a big water boat get the Marquesa. ONLY you know your day in and day out expected uses.

Oh on last point in favor of the Pro. None of us are getting any younger and each year the Marquesa is going to be harder and harder to pole all day....lol.


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## SomaliPirate

What about a Guide? Wouldn't that fish 4 and be easier to pole than a Marquesa?


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## bryson

Will this be your only boat?


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## MariettaMike

^^^^^^^

I chose my Marquesa over a Professional for the following reasons.

0) I fished Biscayne Bay with Joe Gonzales in his Marquesa on January 2nd years ago, and through the course of the day he demonstrated that its the right boat for him and his waters.
1) Wide enough for bench seat in front of console, and has 4 person rating.
2) Live well large enough for redfish tournaments, that doubles as an anchor locker.
3) Way faster with 115 that is really fun to drive, plus has water sports potential with grand kids.
4) I don't like sponsons.
5) I also use my boat for bay scalloping, free diving, and manatee hunting.

My guess is there are probably more HB guides running Marquesas now than Professionals. Al Keller just got his new Innegra boat down to Marco. He told me it feels a little lighter, and may be a little quieter than his former Kevlar boat.

Conversely the only reasons to get a Pro are:
0) The Marquesa is over your budget.
1) The fish you're targeting are consistently in waters that are inaccessible in a boat that drafts over 9".
2) Poling effort exceeds the physical capabilities of the poler.


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## Ruddy Duck LA

So you believe Chittum makes the best boats on the water, but you are going to drop $70k+- on a second or third place boat?

I'm not being a dick. It just boggles my mind how powerful brand loyalty can be. And how damaging shenanigans on social media can be to sales.

I owned a Pro. It was a nice boat. Nothing earth shattering compared to others in that class. Certainly more expensive.

I'm intrigued by the Marquesa as I have been gravitating toward bigger water.

The real purpose of my initial statement is you may not have to choose between poling and ride if you got over your dislike for Hal and his loyal following. You're about to drop a lot of money and don't have to settle. Are you going to be poling a beast of a Marquesa thinking about a Chittum but happy because HB supported BTT?

For what it is worth, I felt the same as you, but after talking to Hal a few times I realized that a purchase should be more about the product than the stigma. 

I struggled with the size of the Marquesa just like you. After talking with several owners, I believe poling it is doable. This is especially true if you aren't guiding out of it and aren't on the water ever day. You can probably pole anything two or three days in a row. It may not be ideal.

At the end of the day, you know this boils down to how you use the boat the most.

Good luck. Regardless, you will end up with a nice skiff.


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## backbone

Fishing the Lagoon or the Glades = Pro

Lots of wisdom in the above comments. #edit-I posted before post number 16

I fish areas where I have to get over a bar to get to fish, so my Pro does that well. It also sits on the beach well when Its advisable to be out there.

Good Luck!


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## WylanB

ifsteve said:


> I totally don't understand the "refuse to put a trolling motor on my skiff" crowd. Its just silly. Sure it ads weight but the draft change is not much different. And its an easy solution. Just rig it so you can remove the TM and batteries. But there are so many circumstances where a TM is such a good tool.


Very good points, ifsteve. I agree that a trolling motor is an immensely valuable tool and I have had ipilots on each of my previous boats. Heres what I have against them: I don't like the way they look on the boat, constantly snagging fly line (sure you can remove it, but then you're left with an ugly puck), they add weight, extra batteries take up all of my storage space, extra thing to clean at the end of the day / maintain every 6 months. Also by having one on the boat, I tend to rely on it too much in situations where poling would be much better. I'm really going for a purist vibe on this next skiff and want to challenge myself to become a better fisherman without the need for too many extra toys.


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## WylanB

bryson said:


> Will this be your only boat?


Yes. My original plan was actually to purchase the new ElDora (something I wanted) plus something like a Boston Whaler (something the wife wanted) to take the family out on weekends. After visiting the HB shop, I was able to convince the wife that we really only need one boat to do it all. I really didn't want to deal with the hassle of extra storage and extra maintenance.


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## SomaliPirate

WylanB said:


> Yes. My original plan was actually to purchase the new ElDora (something I wanted) plus something like a Boston Whaler (something the wife wanted) to take the family out on weekends. After visiting the HB shop, I was able to convince the wife that we really only need one boat to do it all. I really didn't want to deal with the hassle of extra storage and extra maintenance.


I'm considering doing a poor mans version of that and picking up a big Carolina Skiff for family trips and keeping my 17T for poling trips.


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## Stevie

I wasn’t going to respond, but..

- Resale value?

- You should charter @sotilloa1078. Saw his boat out on Biscayne Bay yesterday... it’s beautiful, 12 degrees and very skinny.

- Chittum donated a $75k skiff to IGFA last year...


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## WylanB

Ruddy Duck LA said:


> So you believe Chittum makes the best boats on the water, but you are going to drop $70k+- on a second or third place boat?


Good points Rudy and let me just elaborate on that a little bit since I wasn't too thorough in my original post. When I originally started looking at skiffs in this price category, I went straight to Chittum. Hal and I spoke on the phone for about 45 minutes and I have nothing but good things to say. He spent as much time as needed to answer all of my questions and went out of his way to lock in a build slot that worked with my time schedule. I consider him to be one of The Godfather's of our hobby and he has an extremely interesting and innovative new product.

A week or so after our conversation, a series of posts were made on their social media account (since deleted) bashing brands like HB and Maverick. I found it to be very distasteful and really turned me off from the brand. When I did some further research, I found that this was pretty much the sales tactic they've been using since the start of the company. I'm not sure who is running the social media over there, but I hope you're reading this and your tactics change. If you really believe your product is as good as you say, advertise it for what it is, not for what others aren't.

Now onto the other side of the coin. CP and the folks at HB did wrong by Hal by cutting his name and years of hard work out of the HB history. It's not right to include Morejohn and Flip and try to pretend that Hal wasn't as, or even more, important than each of them. As a buyer, I wouldn't have access to either of these great products (HB or Chittum) without Hal's years of hard work. And as a business, CP wouldn't be enjoying his profits without Hal paving the way for him to do so.

Anyway, this is all beside the point and I don't want to get too carried away here. I'm not here to choose sides or play favorites and I really wish that everybody could just get along lol. But competition is always good and it pushes the envelope for both companies, as well as others, to continue to improve their products. (For example, HB is now offering full and partial carbon fiber builds. Maybe they always have, but I didn't know this going in.) We as consumers are the real winners here.

At the end of the day, I chose Hell's Bay for my reasons listed in the original post and I have no regrets. They're a great company that builds great boats. All I have left to do is choose which one!


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## WylanB

Stevie said:


> I wasn’t going to respond, but..
> 
> - Resale value?
> 
> - You should charter @sotilloa1078. Saw his boat out on Biscayne Bay yesterday... it’s beautiful, 12 degrees and very skinny.
> 
> - Chittum donated a $75k skiff to IGFA last year...


- Out of curiosity, please explain what you mean by "resale value?". I believe that each of these brands enjoy the highest resale value in the game. Having said that, this is a non issue for me, as I plan to make this my lifetime skiff.

- Thats great to hear that Chittum donated to IGFA! As I stated in my previous post, when brands compete, we all win! Also as an aside, let's not forget that many of these charitable donations are tax write offs for the manufacturer. I'm not knocking it though, I think thats great!


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## SomaliPirate

This makes me miss that epic Hal vs. Flip thread from a few years ago.


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## backbone

Stevie said:


> I wasn’t going to respond, but..
> 
> - Resale value?
> 
> - You should charter @sotilloa1078. Saw his boat out on Biscayne Bay yesterday... it’s beautiful, 12 degrees and very skinny.
> 
> - Chittum donated a $75k skiff to IGFA last year...


How much do you think you can resell a $90k skiff for?


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## GladesFlyFishing

I currently have both boats. Fished the Marquesa for about the last 3 years, 200 or so days a year. Mostly poling, but ran the TM when I had the infamous fly/spin combo trip. I recently bought the pro just because I am getting older and wanted a lighter pole to pole, and focus on fly fishing. The Marquesa poled shallower than I thought it would. runs through anything pretty much, and is super stable. Thing I like the most about it is that in my years of fishing it I have had no structural or electrical issues. Which I cant say about boats I have owned from other companies.


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## Stevie

Hi @WylanB 

When you said this was a lifetime boat I thought... must be an older guy.... I see you’re 27 ... that’s awesome! I highly doubt it will be a lifetime boat for you. 

For the 2 boats in question, given your budget, why not buy BOTH Marquesa and Pro, quality used, not new build. To me the only reason for a new build is to get something exceptional that’s not available used.

The best advice on this post is sea trial everything, including boats you’ve excluded due to the Cyberspace perceptions. Do not get caught up in what the internet tells you. 

Good luck,


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## Stevie

backbone said:


> How much do you think you can resell a $90k skiff for?


Sold 2 new builds that cost over $70k in the last 14 months. Average depreciation was less than 15%. What hurt that average was selling a new build which I had overloaded with options...


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## HPXFLY

Another vote for the Marquesa here, I own one an older one but I think the only one with out sponsons (gordon did the work) so pretty similar to the new builds. I also own a Whipray. Ill say the marquesa is always surprising me. The ability to run big water, the storage, range, comfort ect.. is all there and it poles pretty damn good. Its no pro or whip, but I have no problem pushing it around in deep water and current for 5-6 full days in a row. It spins better than you'd think and really rides pretty high.

Why not demo a biscayne ? seems like that might be more in the middle and theres a good number of 1-2 year old used ones for sale right now, that will save you about 20k


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## K3anderson

I know you said not to add more models, but...

What draws you to the Marquesa? If its the space only, you should get a Guide 18. If its the ability to run in sloppier water, Marquesa. The Pro is a far superior poling skiff and can pole much shallower than the Marquesa. It's not nearly as good in chop. I have a Guide. I got this instead of the Pro because I wanted to bring more people sometimes, but, go as skinny as possible. I also wanted to do beach Tarpon in the summer conditions withstanding. Guide is a much bigger skiff than the Pro is. Kinda similar to the Marquesa. The Pro and Guide pole in skinnier water, but, the Guide holds more people.

If its choppy in the cuts, I can't (Or won't) go out there. I would np in a Marquesa. But, my passion is skinny water over big Tarpon on the beach when its choppy, so it' was an easy choice for me. At some point I'm going to get a super simple tiller boat at which time I'll probably get a Marquesa too for the chop. 

IDK Charlotte Harbor really. You are free to come to Tampa and pole my guide if it becomes a thing.


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## slewis

I've spent a significant amount of time in Charlotte Harbour; a lot of which were days I was glad I wasn't crossing in a Pro.


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## WylanB

Thank you so much to all who have reached out and offered insight thus far! All of the opinions have been very thought provoking. As mentioned, I am new to this forum, but I can already tell that this is a great place to be and I feel very fortunate to be a part of it. 

I wish I could say that I have decided on a model, but this has only made things more difficult. I may have to open my search back up to include the Chittum and the Guide, and I may even have to test both the Pro and the Marquesa again. Just so many great options out there.


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## sotilloa1078

Wise choice. The guide is a flat bottom boat also so you will only gain room over the pro but not ride.


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## MSG

OK since were opening it up to the models why not go all in. The Chittum 21 is supposed to float skinnier than the 18 - should ride better than marquesa and probably Poles T lest as well due to the weight. I would buy that if I was buying a boat right now


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## sotilloa1078

MSG said:


> OK since were opening it up to the models why not go all in. The Chittum 21 is supposed to float skinnier than the 18 - should ride better than marquesa and probably Poles T lest as well due to the weight. I would buy that if I was buying a boat right now


I don’t think it’s supposed to float skinnier than the 18. but it will be a skinny floating 21.


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## Matts

I bought Stevie’s old full carbon LM 2 and can say, even without a tunnel, there simply is no quieter or more shallow drafting skiff available for the TX market. It’s stable as a barge, poles like a dream and so quiet it gets within mere feet of fish. I have spent time on most other major brands and can tell you there is absolutely nothing that compares. The only problem is that my fishing partners literally want to buy it. Even with people weighing 250#,190 and 110, its stealthy in 5” of water. You won’t do that with a Pro or Marquesa. The added bonus, it’s so easy to hook up and move around because of it’d weight. Hal has truly left other companies behind. I don’t need all the banter either but at the end of the day, I really want a stable ride in very shallow water and Chittum delivers. I love HB but I couldn’t get them to convince me they would set up a Pro for S TX and I didn’t want to experiment. I spent time on 5 Chittum’s, numerous HB, Mavericks and my old BT Mosquito prior to buying this one and the others simply can’t touch it. You should wet test as many as you can and FISH them for hours. Thanks Stevie! 
All the best with your search,
Matt


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## MSG

sotilloa1078 said:


> I don’t think it’s supposed to float skinnier than the 18. but it will be a skinny floating 21.


Yes- chittum claims it is slightly skinnier than the18 - more displacement


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## texasag07

I was going to keep my crayons to myself on this one but I guess I will chime in.

I have spent a lot of time on Newer pro’s and older marquesa’s 2004 ish plus a lot of waterman’s of different sizes and configuration’s and vintage’s.

like most others if you need to get into less than a real 9” draft more than half of your fishing the marquesa isn’t for you. As setup light it’s a 9” ish boat.

I have fished on the super light 2004 marquesa with a 90 zuk 4stroke that @TidewateR speaks of its a great boat.

I have also fished a lot on an 2004 with a 115 pro xs command thrust with a 36 volt troller( all in the bow) The draft between the two is minimal. Maybe an one inch difference. The main difference is where they get stuck. The heavier skiff with troller gets stuck at the bow first in about 10” the super light with a 90 gets stuck in the stern first maybe in 9”.?If you put trolling and start batteries in the center console I think you could run a 115 and troller and end up with a boat that poles in 9-10”. For the 20 lbs difference I wouldn’t trade the 90 suk for the 115. More power all the way. In florida with or afternoon storms when it’s time to go it time to go(granted we always wait 10 mins to long to fish)

A pro or waterman with a 70 4 stroke is prolly a 7-8” boat. With less freeboard and deadrise you are going to take lots more waves over the bow on the hook Oceanside and get pounded in the big water. A guide won’t help any more since it’s a flat bottom hull design. The guide just carries more weight up front while poling so shallower draft with more weight but not much better in big water.

For reference(not to persuade you) I run a 24volt troller 2011 mav 18 with a 115. I like it but I’m not in love and a don’t drink the brand koolaid. It’s a 10 “ is boat it’s heavier than the marquesa but not by a ton, runs faster than a marquesa with the same power, but the marquesa is a touch drier but not by much.

For all these people taking about how much easier a pro is to pole they are right except when the wind in blowing hard. The larger skiff’s like the marquesa and mav 18 to me pole easier when the conditions suck than a pro or waterman. There weight plus the v shape of their hulls. Stays on track once the skiff is moving on your desired direction

I am not a big guy and I push my 18 mav about 70 percent of the time and troller the rest!

have you been on a Biscayne? Could be a nice fit.


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## texasag07

sotilloa1078 said:


> I don’t think it’s supposed to float skinnier than the 18. but it will be a skinny floating 21.


 I did a fairly mild price out on a 21 and it got into almost 6 digits. For that I get a pathy and A used v hull small mav.


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## sotilloa1078

The Biscayne would be a good option. But it’s not a family boat and drafts like a marquesa. But the ride is solid.


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## Capt. Moose

Buy a Pro and find a friend with a 12° Chittum.


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## ifsteve

MHO is that unless you are a guide and get a big discount or a trust fund baby I can't imagine spending the coin for a HB or Chittum. There are plenty of boats that are every bit or at least dang near as good for way less money. Way less. Flame away.


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## sotilloa1078

Capt. Moose said:


> Buy a Pro and find a friend with a 12° Chittum.


but the 12 degree will float right there with the pro. Especially a mangrove!


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## Stevie

sotilloa1078 said:


> but the 12 degree will float right there with the pro. Especially a mangrove!


Thank you @sotilloa1078. Been trying to say that subtly for quite a while. Mangrove 12 degree with a Tohatsu 60. Will run over 40 mph and float in 7 or less. Fully loaded. Poles well into the wind because it’s level. With the Chittum 12 degree, you avoid the very hard choices which this thread raises.

Had a 178... gorgeous, stately boat...but got caught poling anything but 0 degrees into the wind and came about.


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## BCPD199

texasag07 said:


> I did a fairly mild price out on a 21 and it got into almost 6 digits. For that I get a pathy and A used v hull small mav.


I looked at the 21 as well, and it easily passed 105k. Even the Legacy 18 got over the 100k mark. My problem is, I tend to over option things. Works out great for the next owner! Ended up with the Marquesa. Goes into the mold beginning of April. I think Hal builds a great boat; but, in my case (YMMV), I couldn't justify the extra cost.


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## Matts

I priced out a new Pro (65K or so), new Maverick (don’t remember) and a new 1/2 carbon LM 2 with tunnel like the Pro. At the end of the day, the LM 2 fished so much more stable, quiet and super shallow that an extra 10K would have been meaningless over the long haul, had I purchased new. I carry wading boots in my skiff but in 6 months of use, have never had to get out of the skiff to push, even in 4-5”’of water. Hal has literally answered numerous emails regarding his product and does so expediently. Even after expanding their facility by more than double, from what I’ve heard, they have still gone from a 3 to 12 mos build time. You don’t do that with poor customer service and an average product. The new HB are just so much heavier than the old ones that I could not justify spending that kind of money to have to get out and push. 
All the best,
Matt


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## Caleb.Esparza

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I can say objectively that a great friend loaned me his Chittum for a week in the keys and I was SHOCKED how much I liked it. 

There is a HUGE difference between riding on a skiff that someone else owns (we’ve all been on good boats with bad drivers), and running the absolute piss out of a boat yourself for an extended period of time in varying conditions. Oceanside and backcountry that boat was more well rounded than any skiff I’ve fished to date, and I’ve literally ran and poled just about all of them at this point even to include the Marquesa and 18 Maverick referenced in this thread. I was even lucky enough to spend some time on the new Floyd 10wt recently (VERY intriguing skiff, I can’t wait to spend some more time fishing one). 

If I was dead set on a HB which I’m not, the pro wouldn’t be on my list to begin with.. It would be a toss up between a lightweight marquesa and a lightweight biscayne for my purposes. I already have a super minimal skiff that will out skinny 98% of what’s out there and poles like a canoe.


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## sotilloa1078

Caleb.Esparza said:


> I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I can say objectively that a great friend loaned me his Chittum for a week in the keys and I was SHOCKED how much I liked it.
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between riding on a skiff that someone else owns (we’ve all been on good boats with bad drivers), and running the absolute piss out of a boat yourself for an extended period of time in varying conditions. Oceanside and backcountry that boat was more well rounded than any skiff I’ve fished to date, and I’ve literally ran and poled just about all of them at this point even to include the Marquesa and 18 Maverick referenced in this thread. I was even lucky enough to spend some time on the new Floyd 10wt recently (VERY intriguing skiff, I can’t wait to spend some more time fishing one).
> 
> If I was dead set on a HB which I’m not, the pro wouldn’t be on my list to begin with.. It would be a toss up between a lightweight marquesa and a lightweight biscayne for my purposes. I already have a super minimal skiff that will out skinny 98% of what’s out there and poles like a canoe.


Well said.


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## DBStoots

I have a Professional and have fished on the Marquesa several times--in the bayous of Louisiana, on the beaches for tarpon, and in Biscayne Bay for bonefish and permit. If I lived and fished the areas you are talking about, I would probably go with the Marquesa. If you ever want to talk about the Professional or come down to take a look at mine shoot me a DM. I am very happy with the Professional. C.A. will be down in Ft. Myers soon for a seminar. Perhaps you can arrange a charter or just a test ride.


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## SC on the FLY

Caleb.Esparza said:


> I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I can say objectively that a great friend loaned me his Chittum for a week in the keys and I was SHOCKED how much I liked it.
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between riding on a skiff that someone else owns (we’ve all been on good boats with bad drivers), and running the absolute piss out of a boat yourself for an extended period of time in varying conditions. Oceanside and backcountry that boat was more well rounded than any skiff I’ve fished to date, and I’ve literally ran and poled just about all of them at this point even to include the Marquesa and 18 Maverick referenced in this thread. I was even lucky enough to spend some time on the new Floyd 10wt recently (VERY intriguing skiff, I can’t wait to spend some more time fishing one).
> 
> If I was dead set on a HB which I’m not, the pro wouldn’t be on my list to begin with.. It would be a toss up between a lightweight marquesa and a lightweight biscayne for my purposes. I already have a super minimal skiff that will out skinny 98% of what’s out there and poles like a canoe.


where did the 10wt rank in your opinion?


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## Half Shell

No dog in this fight either but for my only boat I'd take a Marquesa. You can push or pole either boat back to deeper water and unless you're in knee deep muck like in Flamingo, you can always get out and wade that last 30-50 yards where the water goes from 11" to 7" on a flat. You can't make the Pro ride better when the wind picks up or give it more room when a 3rd person wants to go.

I ran into this situation in a 21' flats boat with a trolling motor (and no push pole) 2 days ago. Very low tides and a school of reds came up to feed on what was exposed ground 20-30 minutes ago. I only caught one because it didn't occur to me at first to stop seeing how shallow I could sneak up on the TM and just get out in shin deep water and walk 20 feet. The hull was floating but the TM needed more water. If I had a push pole much less a Marquesa, Pro, or any other skiff small enough to push just 30ft or just gotten out of the boat I would have caught more fish.

Perspective is a funny thing, when I went with CA Richardson I thought to myself how I wouldn't want anything smaller than his Marquesa but I guess if you're coming from something like a 16ft 0 degree skiff it may seem large.


----------



## Rod_Gentry

The part I don't get is if you just talked your wife (or HB personel did), out of her boat, how does a harsh running, poling specialized, skinny water boat, even come into consideration. You buy that thing as an all purpose boat, and by all rights you should have a Boston Whaler in you drive within a year. 

Does she know you post here?


----------



## B_ONE

Agree with your interpretation of the other companies. chittums aggressive attacking social media marketing strategy just turns me off and I won’t support a company like that no matter what their product is. Plus I think they are ugly. HB is a work of art. Just my opinion you are entitled to yours so simmer down fanboy.

Hells Bay is top notch and worth the extra pennies for me. Great company top to bottom. I enjoyed the entire process of my build and love my marquesa. I personally love the big water capabilities and don’t need a boat to get in ultra skinny areas. I think it poles well and I love the innegra build I have. The resale is worth it.


----------



## WylanB

Resistance is futile. I was all ready to put my deposit in at HB this week prior to joining this forum. After some very good advice, I have gone back to Hal to set up a test ride on the Mangrove 12 degree in April. I'm not picking any winners yet. But I have a feeling that once I try this boat, I will be sold. From what Ive heard so far, it just seems to be the best blend of everything that I'm looking for in both the Pro and the Marquesa. All skiffs are compromises. It just kinda seems less so with the Chittum. I'm looking forward to trying it myself. 

Also, to address the elephant in the room, I have to say that Hal has been such a class act in communicating with him directly. He responds promptly to phone calls, spends a lot of time putting together responses in his emails, and never even mentions other companies even if I bring them up. So I don't know who is to blame for the social media BS, but I would be surprised if it is coming from Hal himself. My experience has been nothing but positive. 

I have revised the poll - feel free to update your vote.


----------



## MariettaMike

WylanB said:


> .....I don't know who is to blame for the social media BS, but I would be surprised if it is coming from Hal himself.


He used to USE his name.

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/chittum-islamorada-18-vs-hb-marquesa.31779/page-5



George Sawley said:


> Great post, But remember, Hal Chittum was the real founder of Hells Bay and he knows that product better then they do.... as I have been schooled by Hal I believe we or he can use them as a comparison and I can give you a real world comparison between the skiffs in question. We have not been wrong yet!
> 
> I am not bumping on Hells Bay,, Hal did a great job putting that company where it is today, anything I post is factual. Its your responsibility as a buyer to investigate for yourself.


----------



## SC on the FLY

ifsteve said:


> MHO is that unless you are a guide and get a big discount or a trust fund baby I can't imagine spending the coin for a HB or Chittum. There are plenty of boats that are every bit or at least dang near as good for way less money. Way less. Flame away.


Exactly, I’m pretty sure the Chittum is similar bottom to the Mavericks never rode on one though , I just took a ride on Brian Floyd’s 10 wt and that thing was ridiculous for quite a bit less, I’ve ran both the pro and marquesa


----------



## sotilloa1078

SC on the FLY said:


> Exactly, I’m pretty sure the Chittum is similar bottom to the Mavericks never rode on one though , I just took a ride on Brian Floyd’s 10 wt and that thing was ridiculous for quite a bit less, I’ve ran both the pro and marquesa


Chittum bottom is significantly different than a maverick.


----------



## Matts

sotilloa1078 said:


> Chittum bottom is significantly different than a maverick.


Yep and the Chittum 2 degree full carbon WILL certainly float in 5", fully loaded and I can tell you first hand that the Maverick HPX-S will not come close.
Best,
Matt


----------



## SC on the FLY

sotilloa1078 said:


> Chittum bottom is significantly different than a maverick.


Thanks for the info ,not familiar Though Apparently you can’t always believe what you hear, is your 12° a true 12 or does it have a flat spot in the center?


----------



## Stevie

Photos of the 12 degree. No “flat spots”, except the narrow pad. To me it’s the very light weight of Chittum’s hulls and that they are a full 18 foot boat (with that light weight) that makes the 7” draft for the Mangrove w/ Tohatsu and Snake Bight w/ F70.


----------



## SC on the FLY

Stevie said:


> Photos of the 12 degree. No “flat spots”, except the narrow pad. To me it’s the very light weight of Chittum’s hulls and that they are a full 18 foot boat (with that light weight) that makes the 7” draft for the Mangrove w/ Tohatsu and Snake Bight w/ F70.
> 
> View attachment 112956
> View attachment 112960
> View attachment 112962


Wow , impressive, thanks for posting that


----------



## Water Bound

So, at 12 deg, isn’t the “rise” from the center keel pad to outer chine at least 7”? That would mean that unless the chines are out of the water while floating, the draft of the unrigged, unweight hull would need more than 7” just to float. 



Stevie said:


> Photos of the 12 degree. No “flat spots”, except the narrow pad. To me it’s the very light weight of Chittum’s hulls and that they are a full 18 foot boat (with that light weight) that makes the 7” draft for the Mangrove w/ Tohatsu and Snake Bight w/ F70.
> 
> View attachment 112956
> View attachment 112960
> View attachment 112962


----------



## WylanB

Stevie,

Do you happen to know real world draft and speed numbers on 100% CF 12 Degree with Tohatsu 60?

Thanks


----------



## Str8-Six

Water Bound said:


> So, at 12 deg, isn’t the “rise” from the center keel pad to outer chine at least 7”? That would mean that unless the chines are out of the water while floating, the draft of the unrigged, unweight hull would need more than 7” just to float.


Actually.. Tangent of 12 degrees multiplied by 28 (assuming waterline beam is actually 56”) is 5.95”. This doesn’t account for the small pad or the chine.


----------



## Stevie

WylanB said:


> Stevie,
> 
> Do you happen to know real world draft and speed numbers on 100% CF 12 Degree with Tohatsu 60?
> 
> Thanks


Hi Wylan

I’ve seen a 60 hp reach 42 mph on a 1/2 carbon Mangrove- 2 guys no gear. 

The draft of the full carbon is something like 6.5”, depending on load.


----------



## TheAdamsProject

Just for frame of reference on the draft deal. When I was test riding and ordering my boat, 50% Carbon Mangrove with 50HP Tohatsu side console, I met George and Hal with my 2004 Pro to test all three together. George, Myself and my wife rode and poled all three to do our best to maintain close to an equal weight in the boat. The 2 deg, the 12 deg and my boat. It was clear the 12 deg was the boat for me, the poling ability, the ride and the draft I gave up, if any from my Pro, is still negligible.

Here are a couple screen grabs from my boat sitting waiting for clients. I have About 10gal of fuel, a 45qt. yeti with a bag of ice and water and a fly stripping bucket that weights about 12lb, plus standard fly gear. Granted there is no one in the skiff but you can see the edges of the trim tabs are out of the water.


----------



## Str8-Six

Does a single person on the bow expose the chine and trim tab?


----------



## TheAdamsProject

Str8-Six said:


> Does a single person on the bow expose the chine and trim tab?


Valid question for sure. I would say it might depend on the model. I haven't pushed mine backwards solo. I put the cooler on the bow and push from the poling platform. I have seen Hal push from the bow a number of times from a few different configurations and although it tracked well and was quiet I don't have any photo examples.


----------



## Stevie

Videos of full carbon Mangrove 18 poling. https://www.instagram.com/p/B1htL24HBMP/?igshid=1ix6o5yrgzk7m

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1hxEWFHEgh/?igshid=xhvs5qo8wgwt

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1hxm7cnCW4/?igshid=1tx7l1zcisqko


----------



## Stevie

TheAdamsProject said:


> Just for frame of reference on the draft deal. When I was test riding and ordering my boat, 50% Carbon Mangrove with 50HP Tohatsu side console, I met George and Hal with my 2004 Pro to test all three together. George, Myself and my wife rode and poled all three to do our best to maintain close to an equal weight in the boat. The 2 deg, the 12 deg and my boat. It was clear the 12 deg was the boat for me, the poling ability, the ride and the draft I gave up, if any from my Pro, is still negligible.
> 
> Here are a couple screen grabs from my boat sitting waiting for clients. I have About 10gal of fuel, a 45qt. yeti with a bag of ice and water and a fly stripping bucket that weights about 12lb, plus standard fly gear. Granted there is no one in the skiff but you can see the edges of the trim tabs are out of the water.


Nice photos, Chris. Even loaded as you describe, there’s a slight squat. I imagine when you have a guy on the bow (less displacement) and you on the tower, she levels out...in which case draft at the transom might be similar to the photo you’ve shown of the unloaded boat. I notice that about our 10% carbon Mangrove in MX. To see the unloaded Mangrove squat with a 210 lb Tohatsu 50, shows just how light the hulls are. The empty Snake Bight with a 259 lb F70 actually squats less because the hull is heavier.


----------



## sotilloa1078

I can tell you guys this. My self and one client with a light load and my tabs were right at the water surface. Crazy how shallow this 12 degree floats. I have a 50% carbon Snake Bite


----------



## bryson

Those pictures are great -- looks like she floats really well. Do any of you know the beam at the waterline? Just curious, since weight is only one factor in determining draft.


----------



## MariettaMike

The 100% carbon Mangrove is really light and does float shallow. Its beam is also narrow, and easy to pole. However the light weight makes it “corky”, and the narrow beam makes it “tippy”.

Most recreational anglers can handle tippy, but corky can catch even the most experienced and agile professional guides by surprise.

It is interesting to see the reaction by Maverick, HB and maybe even Drake (idk) to Chittum’s all carbon success. But I think they are going to find out that without the structural benefits of those hideously large spray rails, and crowned deck, that’s its NOT just a simple matter of using all carbon.


----------



## backbone

I have an '02 - 17'8, (a very light lay up) and I prefer the ride when I have two big batteries in the bow.


----------



## Chris Morejohn

Great thread here. I will jump in and give my observations based on having designed the original Marquesa and Pro designs.
I have also known Hal Chittum since 1982 and know his designs inside and out intimately.
I will start with what I feel are my kids, all grown up. The Hells Bay versions of these 2 designs are very different from my original design engineering, and build practices. Both hulls have been modified many times going back and forth with the current owners ideas.
From the start up of Hells Bay with Hal,Flip and myself HB produced 7 different hull designs, along with the engineering that has changed the industry. A wave was started by this effort with the help of all the people that bought our skiffs.
All the current companies that are building today have caught this wave and carved their owns paths down its growing face.
I stopped by Hells Bay a week ago on my way north to see what I feel was the Mecca of the past technical skiff world. To see my old shop one last time.
I was very disappointed. The shop on a Friday was manned by 4 guys in lamination, 4-5 guys in rigging,4 in the office in parts, sales and 2 secretaries along with Chris Peterson.
Avery said the glass people have shifts when gel coating so that was why not much was going on there.
The shop where the rigging Is done was mostly filled with unused molds. 
The yard out back had lots of old molds sitting upright to catch rain water to be ruined. There were skiffs all over looking to be needing repairs or custom work done. No one was outside working.
I was totally dumbfounded.
In my last year in 2002 under my guidance we put out over 150 skiffs. There were skiffs everywhere being built. 1/4 of the rigging shop was dedicated to new plugs and molds.
Not only were we building top of the line skiffs but we also were building just as many Everyman skiffs from prices starting under $10,000.00.
What’s happened to Hells Bay? Has it gone from a leader in the industry to a high end frat club?
Nothing new or innovative that I can see other than a brilliant advertising rebranding effort in eliminating Hal Chittum and putting Flips presence in as the main driving force of its past history.
Having my name up there in its lone spot without Hal’s name leading the list is embarrassing to say the least. It’s BS plain and simple.
Being able to buy an already established name brand and doing with it how you please is for sure your right. Donating to great causes with your own $ is very commendable for sure. 
After I left HB and sold out my partners took my name out of the company’s history just as Chris has done to Hal’s.
Chris put my name back on the letterhead and added the addition of visionary designer in my history. I have by association gotten a free ride with all HBs advertising because of this. I have thanked Chris for this very time I see him. But it does not feel right.
The HB skiffs you are looking at are very well built and look beautiful. They are way over weight from there original design concept of 21-20 ago. Which ever one you choose will be like riding with 5 guys in the skiff due to there added weight.
Nothing new has been done to improve there 20+ year old design thinking. Adding sales talk of materials this and that is well just sales talk.
Other than fit and finish I am not impressed with how my children have aged with their step parents.
I will stop here as my space is running out.


----------



## jsnipes

what are those last 2 pictures?


----------



## yobata

lol I don't think Chris will be invited back to the shop in Titusville


----------



## Chris Morejohn

I met Hal Chittum in 1982. He hired me as a 22 year old to finish a skiff he was trying to get built.
Since this time we have been friends and have enjoyed going over all the what if’s or how I to do things in the skiff and fishing world.
Hal hired me to build him and Flip a skiff using my hull design and build engineering. They liked it so much Hal offered me a partnership in a company he wanted to form. It became Hells Bay.
Hal has always strived to want the best. To me he can get side tracked and not look at what is practical.
Our relationship at HB was basically me telling Hal no. That was too detailed and we should just stick with what I call...high tech, low tech. Good Common sense design along with good engineering.
Hal’s CHITTUM skiffs are reconfigured HPX 17 hulls. They work and perform very well. I would never have built them the way Hal has done being way too complicated in the way they go together.
I have been on the operating table with many of these builds so I know them inside out. I also have seen the insides of all the other builds out there.
Any skiff can be built using all carbon. It can do wonders. To me there are trade offs in how they feel. Jumpy and cranky.
If built properly from the inside out Hal’s 12 degree Islamorda is a wonderful skiff for its size. A definite move forward in the skiff world.
Because they were based on the HPX design they are just over 17’ long on the hull and they get the 18’ length through advertising only.
Every time we “donated a skiff to CCA “ during my days at Hells Bay we sold the skiff to what ever charity for cost and they made their money on anything over that. I don’t think that practice has changed except with maybe Chris Petterson.
I wish when posting photos people would put 3 guys in the skiff with all their gear, show the full fuel tank, add in the trolling motor and all that goes with them. 
If you know the skiffs designed displacement in advance you can just show the public your design drawings with its waterline at the draft it will be with its displacement loads. I do this on all my designs. If you build in all carbon you are saving a bit of weight in cloth 10%














adding 30% more in strength but your hull can only carry so much because of its displacement. 
All my past and present skiffs can float in very shallow water if built right.
Hal’s shop is buzzing with builds. I just wish he would taper his sharp core edges before he infuses so his carbon inner skins won’t fail in a couple years down the road.
That’s The skiff I redid for Hal and started our relationship.
The Waterman skiff is in 1999. It cost less than $10,000.00 fully rigged boat motor and trailer. 
The wave has gotten more costly


----------



## ifsteve

Wow somebody has quite the ego!


----------



## Stevie

Chris Morejohn said:


> Great thread here. I will jump in and give my observations based on having designed the original Marquesa and Pro designs.
> I have also known Hal Chittum since 1982 and know his designs inside and out intimately.
> I will start with what I feel are my kids, all grown up. The Hells Bay versions of these 2 designs are very different from my original design engineering, and build practices. Both hulls have been modified many times going back and forth with the current owners ideas.
> From the start up of Hells Bay with Hal,Flip and myself HB produced 7 different hull designs, along with the engineering that has changed the industry. A wave was started by this effort with the help of all the people that bought our skiffs.
> All the current companies that are building today have caught this wave and carved their owns paths down its growing face.
> I stopped by Hells Bay a week ago on my way north to see what I feel was the Mecca of the past technical skiff world. To see my old shop one last time.
> I was very disappointed. The shop on a Friday was manned by 4 guys in lamination, 4-5 guys in rigging,4 in the office in parts, sales and 2 secretaries along with Chris Peterson.
> Avery said the glass people have shifts when gel coating so that was why not much was going on there.
> The shop where the rigging Is done was mostly filled with unused molds.
> The yard out back had lots of old molds sitting upright to catch rain water to be ruined. There were skiffs all over looking to be needing repairs or custom work done. No one was outside working.
> I was totally dumbfounded.
> In my last year in 2002 under my guidance we put out over 150 skiffs. There were skiffs everywhere being built. 1/4 of the rigging shop was dedicated to new plugs and molds.
> Not only were we building top of the line skiffs but we also were building just as many Everyman skiffs from prices starting under $10,000.00.
> What’s happened to Hells Bay? Has it gone from a leader in the industry to a high end frat club?
> Nothing new or innovative that I can see other than a brilliant advertising rebranding effort in eliminating Hal Chittum and putting Flips presence in as the main driving force of its past history.
> Having my name up there in its lone spot without Hal’s name leading the list is embarrassing to say the least. It’s BS plain and simple.
> Being able to buy an already established name brand and doing with it how you please is for sure your right. Donating to great causes with your own $ is very commendable for sure.
> After I left HB and sold out my partners took my name out of the company’s history just as Chris has done to Hal’s.
> Chris put my name back on the letterhead and added the addition of visionary designer in my history. I have by association gotten a free ride with all HBs advertising because of this. I have thanked Chris for this very time I see him. But it does not feel right.
> The HB skiffs you are looking at are very well built and look beautiful. They are way over weight from there original design concept of 21-20 ago. Which ever one you choose will be like riding with 5 guys in the skiff due to there added weight.
> Nothing new has been done to improve there 20+ year old design thinking. Adding sales talk of materials this and that is well just sales talk.
> Other than fit and finish I am not impressed with how my children have aged with their step parents.
> I will stop here as my space is running out.


Hey Chris,

Your IG post about the HB visit says it all...
















https://www.instagram.com/p/B63ZsbPhA_vg28bqbskgw_BxK5QbtD_I_ZQxh40/?igshid=opu8f01gaosm


----------



## SomaliPirate

<insert Michael Jackson popcorn meme>


----------



## Chopsflyfishes

After running a Marquesa for about three years I have concluded that is is an unbelievable boat ride and stability wise. However that being said, about three quarters of my time is spent on the beach or in deeper creeks (all my skinny stuff is done in a whipray). It is also quite heavy to pole all day with a 115SHO yami, especially in deeper water. If you were like me and spent the majority of your time on the beach or bigger water, I would suggest the Marquesa, but I have also tarpon fished on the pro and it is also a phenomenal boat, but you gain a couple inches of draft and some weight. Therefore I think that the pro would be a better choice for your needs.


----------



## jonterr

Chris Morejohn said:


> I met Hal Chittum in 1982. He hired me as a 22 year old to finish a skiff he was trying to get built.
> Since this time we have been friends and have enjoyed going over all the what if’s or how I to do things in the skiff and fishing world.
> Hal hired me to build him and Flip a skiff using my hull design and build engineering. They liked it so much Hal offered me a partnership in a company he wanted to form. It became Hells Bay.
> Hal has always strived to want the best. To me he can get side tracked and not look at what is practical.
> Our relationship at HB was basically me telling Hal no. That was too detailed and we should just stick with what I call...high tech, low tech. Good Common sense design along with good engineering.
> Hal’s CHITTUM skiffs are reconfigured HPX 17 hulls. They work and perform very well. I would never have built them the way Hal has done being way too complicated in the way they go together.
> I have been on the operating table with many of these builds so I know them inside out. I also have seen the insides of all the other builds out there.
> Any skiff can be built using all carbon. It can do wonders. To me there are trade offs in how they feel. Jumpy and cranky.
> If built properly from the inside out Hal’s 12 degree Islamorda is a wonderful skiff for its size. A definite move forward in the skiff world.
> Because they were based on the HPX design they are just over 17’ long on the hull and they get the 18’ length through advertising only.
> Every time we “donated a skiff to CCA “ during my days at Hells Bay we sold the skiff to what ever charity for cost and they made their money on anything over that. I don’t think that practice has changed except with maybe Chris Petterson.
> I wish when posting photos people would put 3 guys in the skiff with all their gear, show the full fuel tank, add in the trolling motor and all that goes with them.
> If you know the skiffs designed displacement in advance you can just show the public your design drawings with its waterline at the draft it will be with its displacement loads. I do this on all my designs. If you build in all carbon you are saving a bit of weight in cloth 10%
> View attachment 113342
> View attachment 113344
> adding 30% more in strength but your hull can only carry so much because of its displacement.
> All my past and present skiffs can float in very shallow water if built right.
> Hal’s shop is buzzing with builds. I just wish he would taper his sharp core edges before he infuses so his carbon inner skins won’t fail in a couple years down the road.
> That’s The skiff I redid for Hal and started our relationship.
> The Waterman skiff is in 1999. It cost less than $10,000.00 fully rigged boat motor and trailer.
> The wave has gotten more costly


Oh chit!!!
I bet the wife takes away your privledge of seeing the kids!


----------



## Water Bound

So HB's have 5 frat boys buried between the glass with the foam core and Chittums will have lamination failures in a couple years because they don't know how to cut their foam ...that settles it, everyone should just buy a 10 wt! #justsaywhatyoureallymean


----------



## WylanB

I’d be interested to hear more about the lamination failures that Chris Morejohn and others have referred to in reference to Chittum. I hear a lot of skepticism about this issue, but no actual reported occurrences. Can anyone confirm or deny these claims or is it still too early to tell. This scares me a bit.


----------



## eightwt

Water Bound said:


> that settles it, everyone should just buy a 10 wt!


You dance with who brought you, least that's what it seems.....


----------



## WylanB

Chris Morejohn said:


> Great thread here. I will jump in and give my observations based on having designed the original Marquesa and Pro designs.
> I have also known Hal Chittum since 1982 and know his designs inside and out intimately.
> I will start with what I feel are my kids, all grown up. The Hells Bay versions of these 2 designs are very different from my original design engineering, and build practices. Both hulls have been modified many times going back and forth with the current owners ideas.
> From the start up of Hells Bay with Hal,Flip and myself HB produced 7 different hull designs, along with the engineering that has changed the industry. A wave was started by this effort with the help of all the people that bought our skiffs.
> All the current companies that are building today have caught this wave and carved their owns paths down its growing face.
> I stopped by Hells Bay a week ago on my way north to see what I feel was the Mecca of the past technical skiff world. To see my old shop one last time.
> I was very disappointed. The shop on a Friday was manned by 4 guys in lamination, 4-5 guys in rigging,4 in the office in parts, sales and 2 secretaries along with Chris Peterson.
> Avery said the glass people have shifts when gel coating so that was why not much was going on there.
> The shop where the rigging Is done was mostly filled with unused molds.
> The yard out back had lots of old molds sitting upright to catch rain water to be ruined. There were skiffs all over looking to be needing repairs or custom work done. No one was outside working.
> I was totally dumbfounded.
> In my last year in 2002 under my guidance we put out over 150 skiffs. There were skiffs everywhere being built. 1/4 of the rigging shop was dedicated to new plugs and molds.
> Not only were we building top of the line skiffs but we also were building just as many Everyman skiffs from prices starting under $10,000.00.
> What’s happened to Hells Bay? Has it gone from a leader in the industry to a high end frat club?
> Nothing new or innovative that I can see other than a brilliant advertising rebranding effort in eliminating Hal Chittum and putting Flips presence in as the main driving force of its past history.
> Having my name up there in its lone spot without Hal’s name leading the list is embarrassing to say the least. It’s BS plain and simple.
> Being able to buy an already established name brand and doing with it how you please is for sure your right. Donating to great causes with your own $ is very commendable for sure.
> After I left HB and sold out my partners took my name out of the company’s history just as Chris has done to Hal’s.
> Chris put my name back on the letterhead and added the addition of visionary designer in my history. I have by association gotten a free ride with all HBs advertising because of this. I have thanked Chris for this very time I see him. But it does not feel right.
> The HB skiffs you are looking at are very well built and look beautiful. They are way over weight from there original design concept of 21-20 ago. Which ever one you choose will be like riding with 5 guys in the skiff due to there added weight.
> Nothing new has been done to improve there 20+ year old design thinking. Adding sales talk of materials this and that is well just sales talk.
> Other than fit and finish I am not impressed with how my children have aged with their step parents.
> I will stop here as my space is running out.












I hate to do this to you Mr Morejohn because I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and everything you have done for our hobby. But I have to call you out here. You bash HB on microskiff, but on instagram you write, “keep up the absolutely fantastic work”. How do you really feel? This makes things very difficult for prospective buyers such as myself looking for a new skiff. Theres just too much conflicting information online.


----------



## Water Bound

To be clear @WylanB , in case its not obvious, I only referenced CM's comments to point out what I find to be tactless comments about two companies producing great skiffs! I have no knowledge nor have I ever heard they have occurred. If I was either of these companies, he'd be receiving cease and desist letters!



WylanB said:


> I’d be interested to hear more about the lamination failures that Chris Morejohn and others have referred to in reference to Chittum. I hear a lot of skepticism about this issue, but no actual reported occurrences. Can anyone confirm or deny these claims or is it still too early to tell. This scares me a bit.


----------



## Bonesonthebrain

Flip looks a little stiff in the photo.


----------



## WylanB

Water Bound said:


> To be clear @WylanB , in case its not obvious, I only referenced CM's comments to point out what I find to be tactless comments about two companies producing great skiffs! I have no knowledge nor have I ever heard they have occurred. If I was either of these companies, he'd be receiving cease and desist letters!


@Water Bound, its not you I’m referring to. I’ve read this in several places. I tend to agree with you though in that this has never happened and is just a tactless way to find something “wrong” with a Chittum.


----------



## backbone

Bonesonthebrain said:


> Flip looks a little stiff in the photo.


Where can I buy a HB Flat Stanley Flip?
Asking for a friend...


----------



## Stevie

WylanB said:


> I’d be interested to hear more about the lamination failures that Chris Morejohn and others have referred to in reference to Chittum. I hear a lot of skepticism about this issue, but no actual reported occurrences. Can anyone confirm or deny these claims or is it still too early to tell. This scares me a bit.


I’m running the 2018 Chittum race boat—full carbon Snake Bight. After the race, a trip back & forth to Andros and over 100 hours on Biscayne Bay... no lamination failures. The boat is not “jumpy”. I find both the 12 degree Snake Bight and Mangrove to be stable. They are not “tippy” like a Whipray or a Caimen. On the description of “corky” that’s a great adjective. @MariettaMike — thanks for the 2015 archive thread... Because these boats are corky, they never get flooded when you back off the throttle. It’s also why they are dry and don’t submerge with a couple guys on the transom.

@WylanB now you can clearly see the need to seatrial the boats for yourself and not rely on internet perception.


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## sotilloa1078

WylanB said:


> I’d be interested to hear more about the lamination failures that Chris Morejohn and others have referred to in reference to Chittum. I hear a lot of skepticism about this issue, but no actual reported occurrences. Can anyone confirm or deny these claims or is it still too early to tell. This scares me a bit.


there is none. Between the race boat still going strong and lots of others that get run hard regularly. 

take what CM says with a grain of salt. Like stated he’s pushing the 10 wt now days.


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## Charles Hadley

Why are HB skiffs so much heavier now, even if built with current materials?laminating schedule?


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## mtoddsolomon

This is my favorite thread since ranking skiff manufactures.


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## JEROME MCKOWN

WylanB said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> New to the forum, but long time lurker. After reading countless threads and spending hours on research, I am left with the difficult (although fortunate) decision of purchasing a new Hell's Bay Marquesa versus a Professional.
> 
> A little bit about me: I will primarily be using the skiff in Charlotte Harbor. We do a little bit of everything here - from snook and redfish in backwater creeks to tarpon in the deep water pass. I also plan to use this skiff for extended weekend trips (probably 10+ per year) to the keys, everglades, and mosquito lagoon. I will be making full use of my Simrad NSS Evo and FMT chip.
> 
> Now before you suggest other boats or other models, I am only interested in the above two boats. I have owned a Beavertail (Will & Liz are phenomenal), spoken in depth with East Cape (Kevin is great to work with. Their skiff designs and customization options are truly top notch), Ridden and fished on a friend's Maverick (Love everything about the boat except for the lack of direct to consumer sales approach), and seen several Chittums (I believe this to be the best skiff on the water, but I don't want to support all of the bashing they do - even though some of it may be deserved - thats another story altogether between Hal Chittum and Chris Peterson). Unlike many on this forum, I support all builders and believe all of them make exceptional products. Each of these builders build boats that will perform roughly equal give or take an inch, a hundred pounds, or 2 mph for each boat in a given category.
> 
> I have chosen Hell's Bay for the following reasons:
> - History of the Company
> - Quality Fit and Finish
> - Support of Charitable Organizations such as BTT and CFCW
> - Good Looks
> - Community (Captains, Owner's Tournaments, Inner Circles)
> - Customer Service
> 
> Anyway, I have had the chance to test both boats and love them both equally. The professional is lighter and easier to pole (I refuse to mount a trolling motor on my skiff) and drafts 4-5" less. The Marquesa is about 15 mph faster, has room for 4 people, and handles open water much better. I believe each boat will fit my needs while making compromises here and there.
> 
> Which would you choose in this situation?
> 
> P.S. - Boat is being delivered in August and I am excited to share pictures of the build process and final product once my hull choice is decided.


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## JEROME MCKOWN

FOOD FOR THOUGHT...

I KNOW WHAT YOU SAIID ABOUT OTHER SKIFFS BUT AS A CAPT. AND AVID FLY FISHERMAN I WOULD KINDLY ASK YOU TO LOOK AT THE NEW KID ON THE BLOCK...
SABINE SKIFFS MADE. BY BRIAN LITTLE ..NO TWO ARE ALIKE...110%CUSTOM MADE.... TAKE 5 MINUTES TO LOOK EVALUATE AND THEN THAN ME FOR TELLING YOU ABOUT THIS SKIFF,BUILT BY THE SKIFF MASTER HIMSELF...ONE AT A TIME..

CAPT. JEROME
832-627-5006


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## WylanB

JEROME MCKOWN said:


> FOOD FOR THOUGHT...
> 
> I KNOW WHAT YOU SAIID ABOUT OTHER SKIFFS BUT AS A CAPT. AND AVID FLY FISHERMAN I WOULD KINDLY ASK YOU TO LOOK AT THE NEW KID ON THE BLOCK...
> SABINE SKIFFS MADE. BY BRIAN LITTLE ..NO TWO ARE ALIKE...110%CUSTOM MADE.... TAKE 5 MINUTES TO LOOK EVALUATE AND THEN THAN ME FOR TELLING YOU ABOUT THIS SKIFF,BUILT BY THE SKIFF MASTER HIMSELF...ONE AT A TIME..
> 
> CAPT. JEROME
> 832-627-5006


Why are you yelling at me?


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## Str8-Six

mtoddsolomon said:


> This is my favorite thread since ranking skiff manufactures.


Me too


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## B_ONE

Chris Morejohn said:


> Great thread here. I will jump in and give my observations based on having designed the original Marquesa and Pro designs.
> I have also known Hal Chittum since 1982 and know his designs inside and out intimately.
> I will start with what I feel are my kids, all grown up. The Hells Bay versions of these 2 designs are very different from my original design engineering, and build practices. Both hulls have been modified many times going back and forth with the current owners ideas.
> From the start up of Hells Bay with Hal,Flip and myself HB produced 7 different hull designs, along with the engineering that has changed the industry. A wave was started by this effort with the help of all the people that bought our skiffs.
> All the current companies that are building today have caught this wave and carved their owns paths down its growing face.
> I stopped by Hells Bay a week ago on my way north to see what I feel was the Mecca of the past technical skiff world. To see my old shop one last time.
> I was very disappointed. The shop on a Friday was manned by 4 guys in lamination, 4-5 guys in rigging,4 in the office in parts, sales and 2 secretaries along with Chris Peterson.
> Avery said the glass people have shifts when gel coating so that was why not much was going on there.
> The shop where the rigging Is done was mostly filled with unused molds.
> The yard out back had lots of old molds sitting upright to catch rain water to be ruined. There were skiffs all over looking to be needing repairs or custom work done. No one was outside working.
> I was totally dumbfounded.
> In my last year in 2002 under my guidance we put out over 150 skiffs. There were skiffs everywhere being built. 1/4 of the rigging shop was dedicated to new plugs and molds.
> Not only were we building top of the line skiffs but we also were building just as many Everyman skiffs from prices starting under $10,000.00.
> What’s happened to Hells Bay? Has it gone from a leader in the industry to a high end frat club?
> Nothing new or innovative that I can see other than a brilliant advertising rebranding effort in eliminating Hal Chittum and putting Flips presence in as the main driving force of its past history.
> Having my name up there in its lone spot without Hal’s name leading the list is embarrassing to say the least. It’s BS plain and simple.
> Being able to buy an already established name brand and doing with it how you please is for sure your right. Donating to great causes with your own $ is very commendable for sure.
> After I left HB and sold out my partners took my name out of the company’s history just as Chris has done to Hal’s.
> Chris put my name back on the letterhead and added the addition of visionary designer in my history. I have by association gotten a free ride with all HBs advertising because of this. I have thanked Chris for this very time I see him. But it does not feel right.
> The HB skiffs you are looking at are very well built and look beautiful. They are way over weight from there original design concept of 21-20 ago. Which ever one you choose will be like riding with 5 guys in the skiff due to there added weight.
> Nothing new has been done to improve there 20+ year old design thinking. Adding sales talk of materials this and that is well just sales talk.
> Other than fit and finish I am not impressed with how my children have aged with their step parents.
> I will stop here as my space is running out.


Holy cow.... this is exactly what I mean. Why not focus on your own product rather than constantly bash another brand's? Sign of insecurity.


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## mtoddsolomon

I DONT KNOW WHAT WE’RE YELLING ABOUT!

also, using the “Chris is pushing the 10wt” line doesn’t really hold water. 10 wt is his improved design on the skiffs he had previously designed. The guys spends a ton of time sailing around the world thinking about boats, it’s his passion and he’s always wanting to improve.

Steve Jobs wouldn’t try to sell you on an original iPhone when he just released the iPhone 11XR 9er.


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## Matts

I can promise you My 2 degree LM2 is the most stable skiff I’ve fished. Night and day different from the others and one of its best attributes!! Stevie is right about floating high and not taking on water aft.


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## MariettaMike

Oh Snap! The fan boys are coming out now.


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## B_ONE

I’m convinced CM has ten accounts on here and just self aggrandizes w them.


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## JEROME MCKOWN

WylanB said:


> Why are you yelling at me?


MY GLASSES ARE BROKE AND OLD EYES DONT SEE WELL...PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGY


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## Caleb.Esparza

This thread is developing nicely. And to whoever asked me about the 10wt a few pages back, I enjoyed it immensely for the 30 minutes I’ve spent on one. Seemed solid as a brick sh*thouse (Brian Floyd) has built a skiff or two.. and it cornered better than any skiff I’ve driven, to the point I almost went for an unintended swim while trying to find its limits behind the wheel. Poled very well for its size and seemed to get up and go plenty good with the f70. 

I would like to spend some more time on one soon to see what she can do in some truly rough stuff, when Brian stopped in Mississippi to let us take her for a spin it was unfortunately slick which doesn’t do much for sea trials but I have a feeling it will be a great skiff on that front as well.


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## SC on the FLY

Caleb.Esparza said:


> This thread is developing nicely. And to whoever asked me about the 10wt a few pages back, I enjoyed it immensely for the 30 minutes I’ve spent on one. Seemed solid as a brick sh*thouse (Brian Floyd) has built a skiff or two.. and it cornered better than any skiff I’ve driven, to the point I almost went for an unintended swim while trying to find its limits behind the wheel. Poled very well for its size and seemed to get up and go plenty good with the f70.
> 
> I would like to spend some more time on one soon to see what she can do in some truly rough stuff, when Brian stopped in Mississippi to let us take her for a spin it was unfortunately slick which doesn’t do much for sea trials but I have a feeling it will be a great skiff on that front as well.


 Thank you Caleb for the response that was me who asked the question, I can tell you After I asked the question ( I’ve never been on one until )Brian brought it to Charleston it was pretty snotty out, , The brick shit house comment was spot on, we had three people on the boat and ride in rough water was exceptional, was it better than a pro I would say so, Was it better than a waterman definitely was it better than Marquesa probably not as much but the Marquesa I demoed had a 115 sho on the back and might not be that good of an assessment. The 10 weight that we took out had a Yamaha 70 , I can tell you though on the pole wind was blowing about 17 miles an hour and it’s tracked beautifully and no slap ,the front did not want to pull around into the wind at all for some reason even with the high freeboard, Off to start it took a bit of a push because it is a bigger boat ,when moving it poled like butter, I’m not sure, but the OP sounds like he wants the highest end skiff with the best fit and finish out there, But on the flipside it seems like one has to pay a pretty hefty price tag for that, Which is also fantastic if it plays in your budget, whatever the case I do enjoy reading this thread, it’s turned out to be a pretty good one, hopefully the bashing/banter stays tackfull . I guess I’m happy I can participate in these first world issues, lol, I hope the OP doesn’t leave everybody hanging on his choice


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## ifsteve

mtoddsolomon said:


> I DONT KNOW WHAT WE’RE YELLING ABOUT!
> 
> also, using the “Chris is pushing the 10wt” line doesn’t really hold water. 10 wt is his improved design on the skiffs he had previously designed. The guys spends a ton of time sailing around the world thinking about boats, it’s his passion and he’s always wanting to improve.
> 
> Steve Jobs wouldn’t try to sell you on an original iPhone when he just released the iPhone 11XR 9er.


Don't think anybody disagrees with that but also don't think that's the point. Tout your latest design. Tell the world why its the next best thing. But you don't need to write a page shitting on other builders.


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## mtoddsolomon

ifsteve said:


> Don't think anybody disagrees with that but also don't think that's the point. Tout your latest design. Tell the world why its the next best thing. But you don't need to write a page shitting on other builders.


I'm just trying to stir the pot.


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## SomaliPirate

All this skiff drama and here I am with a MBC skiff...








My biggest drama is hoping my stringers stay attached to the boat.


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## yobata




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## LowHydrogen

backbone said:


> Where can I buy a HB Flat Stanley Flip?
> Asking for a friend...


That's not cardboard, it's a proprietary Guava / Carbon-fiber layup and you can't afford it.


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## SomaliPirate

LowHydrogen said:


> That's not cardboard, it's a proprietary Guava / Carbon-fiber layup and you can't afford it.


I actually lol'd at my work desk.


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## sotilloa1078

yobata said:


>


I’ll bite. What skiff is that?


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## SomaliPirate

sotilloa1078 said:


> I’ll bite. What skiff is that?


Looks like every skiff keel in Ozello to me.


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## yobata

sotilloa1078 said:


> I’ll bite. What skiff is that?


Obviously its a


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## Charles Hadley

SomaliPirate said:


> All this skiff drama and here I am with a MBC skiff...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My biggest drama is hoping my stringers stay attached to the boat.


Haha "white boy problems!"


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## SC on the FLY

sotilloa1078 said:


> I’ll bite. What skiff is that?


It looks like one a beaver chewed on, do tell


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## jonterr

ifsteve said:


> Don't think anybody disagrees with that but also don't think that's the point. Tout your latest design. Tell the world why its the next best thing. But you don't need to write a page shitting on other builders.


Personally, I didn’t take it as him shitting on HB
I took it as him saying nobody ever works there and when they do, they build heavy ass boats, and not to buy a model after 2001


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## SHOAL

Being a little biased, I got buy a HPX an save 15/20K, LMAO...


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## SHOAL

Being a little biased, I got buy a HPX an save 15/20K, LMAO...


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## HPXFLY

No chance you step on a new 17 hpx done up for 20k less than one of these boats named here. Not to mention a new "carbon" model


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## sotilloa1078

HPXFLY said:


> No chance you step on a new 17 hpx done up for 20k less than one of these boats named here. Not to mention a new "carbon" model


Bingo!


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## mtoddsolomon

If you thought you were saving $15-20k by going maverick instead of HB you never got a quote from hell’s bay.


SHOAL said:


> Being a little biased, I got buy a HPX an save 15/20K, LMAO...


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## SHOAL

I guess I'd be bent outta shape also if I just found out I brought the fat girl to the dance...
The comment was to Morejohn referencing "Hal's CHITTUM skiffs are reconfigured HPX 17 hulls".
But on the serious side what does it matter what depth your boat floats in? 5", 6"? Rigged the way these boats (pics) on this thread with 8"(a guess) of motor below the bottom of the hull your surely not running it that depth. But then again most boats I see are rigged this way.


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## Smackdaddy53

SHOAL said:


> I guess I'd be bent outta shape also if I just found out I brought the fat girl to the dance...
> The comment was to Morejohn referencing "Hal's CHITTUM skiffs are reconfigured HPX 17 hulls".
> But on the serious side what does it matter what depth your boat floats in? 5", 6"? Rigged the way these boats (pics) on this thread with 8"(a guess) of motor below the bottom of the hull your surely not running it that depth. But then again most boats I see are rigged this way.


Not everyone is running around all day, poling is a huge part of draft.


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## SHOAL

Smack, I'd rather not pole (what would feel like) miles to get to 5" of water


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## slewis

cough https://www.microskiff.com/threads/2017-maverick-hpx-v-17.72382/ cough


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## Smackdaddy53

slewis said:


> cough https://www.microskiff.com/threads/2017-maverick-hpx-v-17.72382/ cough


But where’s the carbon fiber?


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## Capt. Moose

Smackdaddy53 said:


> But where’s the carbon fiber?


Push pole?


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## Charles Hadley

Just so I have it right,this is a chittum,maverick, morjon thread now?


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## Smackdaddy53

Charles Hadley said:


> Just so I have it right,this is a chittum,maverick, morjon thread now?


That’s where they all go


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## LowHydrogen

Charles Hadley said:


> Just so I have it right,this is a chittum,maverick, morjon thread now?


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## HPXFLY

SHOAL said:


> I guess I'd be bent outta shape also if I just found out I brought the fat girl to the dance...
> The comment was to Morejohn referencing "Hal's CHITTUM skiffs are reconfigured HPX 17 hulls".
> But on the serious side what does it matter what depth your boat floats in? 5", 6"? Rigged the way these boats (pics) on this thread with 8"(a guess) of motor below the bottom of the hull your surely not running it that depth. But then again most boats I see are rigged this way.


Yea not sure any of this has to do with running in shallow water. Also I priced a chittum and an HPX. Much closer than youd think and that wasnt a carbon model HPX. 

Ive owned a few HPXs, currently own two HBs and I was very impressed by the two chittums I demoed.


----------

