# Selling homemade boat - product liability



## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

I would think with anything else that is sold as used it is sold as-is unless a warranty is implied.

Selling as new would be different.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

We're talking product liability, not used vehicle.
Think about it, you sell a homemade boat,
the new owner takes it out with the family aboard
and pushes it and hull failure occurs.
Some one gets hurt or worse.
The incident will be investigated, and the findings will be public record.
If for any reason the investigation determines hull construction
was to blame, the builder becomes legally and financially responsible.
If taken to court and the builder is put on the stand,
any attorney is going to ask those questions
and as a result, the builder has a serious personal problem.


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## floridanative1028 (May 30, 2009)

Then you have a perfectly good reason to disappear to the Bahamas for a little while that's all


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

I see your point and would likley boil down to who had the better lawyer, and since the plaintiff lawyer would be working on contingency......


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

Do it the way we sell homebuilt aircraft ...

In your case remove the motor and sell as a non powered vessel ....

Have an attorney draw up a waiver / release of liability and record it at the courthouse ...


the same applies to ALL Customized / modified Boats ...


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

cheaper to keep her ;D


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Sad part is, manufacturers liability seems to be forever.
Safety recalls are a fact of life.
Build it wrong and it will come back and cause the builder problems.
The USCG maintains a safety recall database for just that purpose.

http://www.recalls.gov/uscg.html

The problem with the waiver is that it only applies to the signee,
what happens if he sells the hull? You now have another person involved.
That hull ID number links the homebuilder to that hull,
until the hull is reported to the DMV as destroyed.


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

[smiley=1-mmm.gif]
Hmmm. 

This would add a whole new dimension for all those  people that titled a "lost title" boat as a home built..


[smiley=1-headache.gif]
they might have some 'splainin to do!


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Brett I had the same concerns a little while ago when I was getting offers from people on my wrecked hull. I asked someone who works in the insurance law industry and got an answer.

Basically as it was explained to me, since you are not selling for profit, a registered builder, or building a commercially available design, all liability would be assumed by the purchasing party as long as there was a proper bill of sale with no warranty expressed or implied.
The only hitch would be if you were dishonestly representing it as something other then a homemade boat (IE selling a boat as homemade due to a "lost title). Or express a warranty of some kind.

It's the same thing with home built trailers, or custom cars, swamp buggies.....
One thing I was told is if I wanted to I could sell the trailer and motor, then give the hull away with it. Since there is no money exchanged for the vessel there is no liability 

That being said I still decided to destroy the hull because I didn't want anything on my conscience if some fool used it, or repaired it wrong, but you are selling a fully intact boat.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

> I didn't want anything on my conscience



There's the most important line in your reply FC.
I know that this was my first build. I'm not a professional builder.
I know this hull was built for inshore, calm, shallow waters.
I'm not using it to run in any kind of chop or swell.
But if I sell it and the next owner uses it a little harder, not good. 
If someone gets hurt or worse due to a mistake I made in construction,
then it's just not worth it to me to sell the boat.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Well then you will need to do the obvious....Cut it clean down the middle, widen it a bit by adding a V section and keep it 

Can anyone say 16ft Panga/jon/skiff hybrid?


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

I could always epoxy on 8 lb density structural foam,
shave a vee bottom onto the existing hull, then glass over.

Then the Slipper would look like a Mitzlaff design, with a tunnel... ;D


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

get 'er done!


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## HialeahAngler (Dec 18, 2008)

give it to me as a gift and I will release you of all liability.


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## cutrunner (Jun 8, 2010)

Use it for redbull flug-tag!!!


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

just eliminate the lawyers ;D


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

Ok Relax ...


Gheenoe sells tens of thousands of boats rated for 10 Horsepower or less Specified for "calm"
Waters ... Yahoos like myself Install 3 times the rated horsepower and beat the Crap out of them ...

Yes they can take it ... 

Is CG responsible if they break ... OF COURSE NOT ....


I have busted up Things in my lifetime and blame only myself ...


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## Flyline (Mar 3, 2008)

How much do u want for the glass slipper? It will looks great on my 9.8 tohatsu 4stroke and I'm sure it runs very skinny!


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

flug-tag... ;D

Some good lawyer jokes on line, Top... 

OK, I'm relaxed Dave... 

Blake, I'm not selling the Slipper.
I was seriously thinking about it, and mentioned it to my wife.
Her father is a retired attorney, she thinks like an attorney,
and asked me what I thought our liability would be.
I didn't know, very little information on the web,
so a few phone calls were made. 
Posted the results here for further discussion and opinions.


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## DSampiero (Oct 18, 2009)

> How much do u want for the glass slipper?   It will looks great on my 9.8 tohatsu 4stroke and I'm sure it runs very skinny!





> give it to me as a gift and I will release you of all liability.


Sorry guys, but I have first dibs and was planing to take ownership March first until this happened... Lawyers, can't live with 'em...


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Let's assume that you sell a homemade and the purchaser gets injured (or worse) and calls 1-800-ask-gary and some sleezy attorney takes the case and you receive a nice letter in the mail requesting you to appear for a Q&A session with a man in a black robe. You now have to pony up $10k to start to defend yourself and that is to START and that is probably half of the final bill unless you only had $2k and that the attorney you hire is less than enthusiastic and you loose. How long will you have to pay?

Was it worth the $300 you got for the sale? Take the chainsaw to it, take the remains to Dave's house and enjoy the bonfire.

Anybody can sue for any reason and you ARE guilty until you prove your innocence.


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## joshuabward (Apr 3, 2010)

Its simple sell it as a titled "lawn ornament" and if they take it out onto the water, then they were using it in manner for which it was not designed ;D


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## popcorn (Apr 11, 2010)

I've thought the same thoughts about my homemade skiff so I'm going to run it until it starts giving problems. Then late one night I might make a fish reef out of it at my favorite pond. Drill a few holes in the deck, pull the plug, slip over into my kayak and say goodbye but record the location on my gps of course so I can come by from time to time and leave lures imbeded in her hull :'(


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## oysterbreath (Jan 13, 2009)

> give it to me as a gift and I will release you of all liability.


Best answer of the day!


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

You could give them the materials receipts and have then Register it them selves as homemade ...

Lawn ornament might work 

I sold a Camera as a piece of Industrial Art Paperweight ...

Put it in Bold type ....


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

I would not exchange any money for it if you don't have absolute comfort in your product. You could let a trusted friend borrow it on a semi-permanent basis. No chainsaws or bonfires please. Lawyers cause enough destruction as is.

No matter how many boats you have, you will never not have a use for a simple 16' skiff.

Nate


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

> Take the chainsaw to it, take the remains to Dave's house and enjoy the bonfire.


Just don't let anybody inhale the fumes, that could open up a whole new can of worms! ;D


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## floridanative1028 (May 30, 2009)

So if someone makes a U-turn in front of you and you don't have enough time to stop, does some scumbag lawyer convince a judge that you are at fault and rule in the plaintiffs favor because you replaced your brakes without any professional credentials? I doubt it. I'm also curious to know how many thousands of homemade boats have been sold compared to how many court cases have even been opened as a result of hull failure. I know its a possibility and even more so around here with the over population of bored lawyers but if your father in-law is a lawyer you should be able to get him to draft you a disclaimer that protects you from any fault.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Get a release of liability and then sell it to a forum member so you know it will be used right. Your design is no different technically from other flat bottomed boats like a jon or stump, never heard of any law suite against those.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Still researching the problem, reading news regarding lawsuits
against boat builders who've been sued due to bad design and faulty construction.

examples...

http://sbj.net/main.asp?SectionID=18&SubSectionID=23&ArticleID=87603

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/ForensicArticle.htm

and the personal injury attorneys websites advertise
that they're willing to take any injury case that can be
traced back to bad design or faulty construction.

                                      

The more I read, the more I understand the reasoning behind
the recommendations made by the attorney in the family.

If you build your own boat:

1) Use it until you're bored with it, or it falls apart.
2) Then take a chainsaw to it and report the destruction to the DMV.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm not buying it Brett! I know your googley skills and if you really wanted you can find a much better example then those 2. The first isn't even really a boat it's a car on the water, and they willfully violated safety standards, the second is an account of how people unsuccessfully sue others more or less and manufacturers trying to get away cheaply.

I think you are trying to justify keeping her, if so no one will blame you


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

;D   Good comeback FC!   ;D

I posted the question to a free legal advice website
been waiting for the answer and this was the reply I received...

https://www.lawguru.com/legal-questions/-/built-small-boat-training-constructionif-549349664/a


I wonder what the guys over at bateau.com think about this question?

:-?


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## floridanative1028 (May 30, 2009)

Ha! The lawyer that responded is from Delray Beach, FL. Go figure....

Ask him if it is possible to include all future owners in the waiver.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Not sure but I bet someone at bateau.com has an answer, post up over there and link us in.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

I only lurk bateau... [smiley=paranoid.gif]

If I was a member there
I'd spend way too much time at the computer.

I spend enough time here as it is...


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Microskiff just told me my explanation was spam and deleted what I wrote? WTF??? I'll type it again in a few minutes


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## floridanative1028 (May 30, 2009)

You should call Contender and see how they argued their hull warranty.  Every advertisement whether print or video shows Contenders hauling ass and going airborne but somehow they say your boat is not supposed to be run like that and if it is that it voids the hull warranty.  I don't know how that case ended or if its still open but you might be able to get some insight by researching that.  Their used to be a website http://www.contenderboatsbreachwarranty.com/ but its not up anymore, probably per the lawyers advice.  It's about a warranty and not liability but if you see this guys transom it more than likely would have led to a liability suit had it gotten worse at sea.


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## floridanative1028 (May 30, 2009)

heres 291 pages for you to dig through!
http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/265780-contender-waranty-must-suck.html
There was a big one on fs too but they deleted it.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

ok let me try this again

What if you got the boat back after you sold it? What I mean is what if it could only be sold back to you?

A release of liability with a buy back option? You and the seller agree in this contract of sorts that if he ever sells the boat he must offer it back to you at an agreed upon value?

EI. you sell it to him for whatever, Lets say $3k for the boat motor and trailer, but if he ever wants to get rid of it he must give you the option of buying just the hull back for say $500 or so. If you decline the purchase the next owner must sign a similar contract with another buy back option.

This way you can sell it to a forum member or friend, and then in a few years have the opportunity to fish her again


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

FC, if this had been a molded fiberglass hull, there'd be no problem.
I've had enough experience with fiberglass that I've learned
what needs to be done to ensure a safe, durable and lasting hull.
The Slipper was my first try with wood/epoxy/glass composite.
I know what I did right and what I did wrong.
I didn't use marine plywood, there are no stringers to reinforce the sole.
The wood will be a problem as soon as a leak occurs.
The lack of stringers is fine as long as the boat is used in flat calm waters.
But run it in any kind of chop, you can feel the sole ripple.
Over time, that flex is going to be a problem for the hull.
It's good enough for me to puddle around in skinny water,
but I'm not confident enough in my abilities as a
wood boat builder/designer, to be willing to take a chance
on someone else running the boat with me not there.
Then there's the fact that I've been bumping and banging
my way through miles of oyster creeks and the underside of the hull shows it.
I won't hand off a boat I'm not absolutely confident in, especially not to a friend.
It's just not worth the risk. I'm not that greedy,
and I like going to bed at night with a clear conscience.
Add to that the opinions obtained from 2 attorneys,
regarding long term exposure to liability as the boat's builder,
and I'm not going to give or sell a homebuilt hull to anyone, ever.
I would, however, be more than willing to help someone build their own hull.


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## floridanative1028 (May 30, 2009)

If your going to destroy the boat at least use it for a while longer. Isn't it only like a year or two old? Your responsibility is admirable and not very common these days. However, and i think FC can agree, I am not arguing for the sake of profit, just wanting someone else to be able to use such a sick boat and maybe be inspired to build one on their own.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

I'll keep using the Slipper until I consider her unsafe.
She'll make a good freshwater boat too, for use in the backyard canal.
Hang an electric trolling motor on the back instead of the merc.
No need to keep renewing the registration.
It's not like I don't have a 2 car boat garage.

                                     

btw, the reason for this thread was not because I was deciding
whether or not to sell the Slipper, but because I'd never given any thought
to the possible legal repercussions in selling a homemade boat.
It's a boat, right? They are bought and sold all the time.
It's that "homemade" designation that incurs the liability.
After having it brought to my attention, I decided to bring it to yours.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

> Just don't let anybody inhale the fumes


"I lit up but never inhaled" - William Jefferson Clinton


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

> > Just don't let anybody inhale the fumes
> 
> 
> "I lit up but never inhaled" - William Jefferson Clinton


Speaking of slippery lawyers ;D

"I did not have sex with that woman" - William Jefferson Clinton


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

> the second is an account of how people unsuccessfully sue others more or less


Agree 100% and that is the exact reason I made my previos post. Even though some of those cases ended without compensation - how much was spent on defense.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Screw it, go to the garage right now, pull her out, punch a hole in the gas tank and set her on fire! 
Atleast when she is gone it will light a fire under your butt to start the next project.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Firecat you are on to something. Brett and all of his Googleing equals stall tactics.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

The boys at bateau.com took up the topic.
The thread is in the "Anything else..." section.
Some good points brought up there also.



The wife says not to worry, Slipper won't go to waste.
             she'll use it for my Viking funeral...
     Don't forget the extra long marshmallow sticks!

                                     [smiley=happy.gif]


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Found this quote while continuing my research



> People who build a boat for their own use are known as "Backyard Boat Builders". They are expected to comply with the same safety standards and administrative regulations as regular boat manufacturers. Failure to do so could affect their insurance coverage and make them vulnerable in a liability suit.


http://www.boatcourse.com/Florida/01_BasicBoatingInformation/07_Homemade_Boats.aspx


The line in the quote that clarifies the liability issue is the very first one.

People who build a boat for their own use

As long as it is for your own use, you avoid most problems.
As soon as you sell an amateur built hull, you're leaving yourself open to liability worries.


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

"As long as it is for your own use, you avoid most problems."

As long as you built it to what the insurance company lawyer deems as industry standards you would be okay. If you believe that someone looking to avoid a payout will see your boat as meeting industry standards, well.... [smiley=evil.gif]

I agree with your point as a builder being responsible for their product but, I believe they are talking about the home made boat builder being held liable for any injury, loss of life, and property damage while they own and operate the boat. Now that is reason for pause! :-/


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