# Nail Knot to Fly Line



## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

I'm looking for some help tying butt section to a fly line with a nail knot. Everything looks good and when I finally test it and give it my all one of two things happens. First, the coating separates from the core right next to the knot. Second, the nail knot made of butt section strips off the coating.

Stumped with a fishing trip fast approaching.


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## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

Create a loop with your fly line and use three nail knots to finish the loop. Then use a perfection loop on the butt section of your leader, connect the loop to loop and enjoy your trip. The 1980's were a long time ago, no need to tie your butt section to your fly line with a nail knot anymore.

You can also, create a loop in your line and whip it with kevlar thread or use a high quality braided loop slipped over your fly line to create a loop... just dont use the supplied shrink tubing to connect, use three nail knots over the braided core to connect to the fly line.


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

That is the way I usually rig my leaders but I was trying this out before a trip. Now, I’ve hacked off the factory loop and taken off four inches of fly line trying to get this to work.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

We've had many threads on the subject and you can research them. You can find more detailed info in the "Tarpon Leader" thread up above.

But, to be concise about it, this is the gist of what you need to do.

I use to service my own loops in my flyline, back when it wasn't common to have welded loops in your flyline or the ones that they started doing wasn't very reliable. So in the early 90's I learned this from a fly shop owner. I basically used this from anything from a 7wt on up. 






Here in Bruce Chard's video, his splice is only about a 1/2 long when finished, where I'll have at least 1" to 1.2" of splice, depending on line wt (of course, the bigger lines got the bigger splice).
I also used white thread and I spun it with the bobbin swing out further, to add more bite into the flyline outer core.. Then superglue only the whip finish, let it dry completely, then coat the entire splice thread with Liquid Fusion or gorilla glue clear (dries clear, hard finish but flexible) and just let it hang for 24hrs to fully cure.

That all being said, it still adds a bump in your fly line as it comes thru your rod guides. Still, in a pinch, this is the most secure loop I've found over the years, aside from the braided loops.

The Braided loops. Most fly shops sell them or easy to order. Rio makes them, as well as a number of other mfg's. I use the 30lb version up to an 8wt and then use the 50lb version from 9wt up. What I like about them is when completed, the loop cinches down smaller, which helps to go through the guides easier.







Here in this video, I do the same but not use the clear shrink tube. Instead, I'll do a dbl nail knot with 10lb white braid (like some leftover Spiderwire Invisibraid I use on my spinning reels). Then service white thread, just like the Bruce Chard video above, over the very end of the braid (maybe a 1/4"+/-) to cover any remaining braided tubing that might stick out after it's trimmed back, so it doesn't hang up on any snake guides, when going thru. Then coat all knots and thread and the braided tubing between the 2 nail knots, including about a 1/2 inch past the closest nail knot towards the loop, using the glues I just described.

I've yet to have anything pull these loops off, if properly secured this way.

I have used more complicated methods, but this is the easiest and most reliable method.

Ted Haas


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Backwater said:


> We've had many threads on the subject and you can research them. You can find more detailed info in the "Tarpon Leader" thread up above.
> 
> But, to be concise about it, this is the gist of what you need to do.
> 
> ...


I think the second video with braided loops is too complicated .I've used the wip finish for years also nail knots. I learned the wip finish from Lefty's saltwater book that I have referred to for years
If you do the wip finish right it goes through the guides fine. Just sayen


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

permitchaser said:


> I think the second video with braided loops is too complicated .I've used the wip finish for years also nail knots. I learned the wip finish from Lefty's saltwater book that I have referred to for years
> If you do the wip finish right it goes through the guides fine. Just sayen


Nothing wrong with a loop in the fly line and whip finished in place with thread and a bobbin (like Chard's video above). It's just a slightly bigger bump than the braided loops, because the braided loop cinches down a little tighter.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Backwater said:


> Nothing wrong with a loop in the fly line and whip finished in place with thread and a bobbin (like Chard's video above). It's just a slightly bigger bump than the braided loops, because the braided loop cinches down a little tighter.


Well what if you make a little bitty whip loop


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

permitchaser said:


> Well what if you make a little bitty whip loop


What if you just tied the fly to the end of your flyline and just eliminated the leader all together!


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

My Airflow clear tip does the same thing. What line are you having trouble with?


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

RunningOnEmpty said:


> My Airflow clear tip does the same thing. What line are you having trouble with?


Me?

RIO Permit.


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## Rayreds (Oct 24, 2016)

Backwater said:


> Nothing wrong with a loop in the fly line and whip finished in place with thread and a bobbin (like Chard's video above). It's just a slightly bigger bump than the braided loops, because the braided loop cinches down a little tighter.


Had a braid loop come apart on a Permit. Never again.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Backwater said:


> What if you just tied the fly to the end of your flyline and just eliminated the leader all together!


Yea, that's the ticket


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## Pudldux (Mar 3, 2016)

Just use an allbright!! Simple,done.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> We've had many threads on the subject and you can research them. You can find more detailed info in the "Tarpon Leader" thread up above.
> 
> But, to be concise about it, this is the gist of what you need to do.
> 
> ...


Ted, that's what I have been telling you for a few years lol. I like the invisibraid because you know it's tight when it goes from white to translucent. You only need one nail knot. Two if you want overkill, just make sure they are butted up against each other. If you space the nail knots out you start taking away the surface area of the finger trap effect which is what makes the connection strong.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> Twd, that's what I have been telling you for a few years lol. I like the invisibraid because you know it's tight when it goes from white to translucent. You only need one nail knot. Two if you want overkill, just make sure they are butted up against each other. If you space the nail knots out you start taking away the surface area of the finger trap effect which is what makes the connection strong.


I don't think that a 1/2" is going to take away from a 6" braided tube, especially if you are gluing it in-between the 2 nail knots.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Rayreds said:


> Had a braid loop come apart on a Permit. Never again.


Ouch! 

I've not had a problem with them.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> I don't think that a 1/2" is going to take away from a 6" braided tube, especially if you are gluing it in-between the 2 nail knots.


Agree but if you have 3 nail knots spaced half an inch apart on the braided mono you are cutting the amount of finger trap down. At most I will use two nails butted tight to each other, but usually only one. The whole purpose of the nail knot is to bind the braided into the fly line coating and to keep it from coming unraveled. If it's secure on there it's not coming off.


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

brokeoff said:


> Me?
> 
> RIO Permit.


All of my Rio lines take a nail knot without any problems? I was cutting off all of my my loops until I had issues with my Airflow line. My BTT takes a nail knot as well just like a good fly line should.


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

RunningOnEmpty said:


> All of my Rio lines take a nail knot without any problems? I was cutting off all of my my loops until I had issues with my Airflow line. My BTT takes a nail knot as well just like a good fly line should.



It’s definitely not the line. I think I’m pulling way too hard while testing the connecting.


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## Rayreds (Oct 24, 2016)

Backwater said:


> Ouch!
> 
> I've not had a problem with them.


Braid stayed on line and loop open up at Fly line to backing. Found line floating but fish was gone. At least didn't now lose fly line. I think nail knot loop is the way to go. Less stuff to buy!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> Agree but if you have 3 nail knots spaced half an inch apart on the braided mono you are cutting the amount of finger trap down. At most I will use two nails butted tight to each other, but usually only one. The whole purpose of the nail knot is to bind the braided into the fly line coating and to keep it from coming unraveled. If it's secure on there it's not coming off.


I thought I only mentioned using 2 nail knots a 1/2" apart.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> I thought I only mentioned using 2 nail knots a 1/2" apart.


You probably did. Just pointing out that you are taking away surface area of the finger trap which is what makes the connection so strong.

The braided mono space between nail knots can't contract when pulled since it has nails on both ends. At that point the second knot isn't doing anything. That's why if I use two nails I butt them up next to each other so there is no gap of braided mono visible in the space between the nails. At that point you have double the surface area of nails pushing the braided mono down into the core. Again it's overkill, 1 nail knot is enough to bind the braided mono to the fly line and keep it from unravelling.

Probably splitting hairs here but I have tested the connection a bunch of different ways over the past few years and this has been the most effective if you are set on having more than one nail knot.


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## matthew butcka (Sep 26, 2016)

brokeoff said:


> It’s definitely not the line. I think I’m pulling way too hard while testing the connecting.


I have the same problem with Rio lines, I'm guessing because the coating doesn't adhere to the mono core like it does with a braided core. I just tested a Rio outbound vs. an airflo 40+ and the nail knot worked perfectly on the airflo and pulled the coating right off the Rio. Try an albroght if you don't want the loop to loop, that knot works well with the Rio lines


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> You probably did. Just pointing out that you are taking away surface area of the finger trap which is what makes the connection so strong.
> 
> The braided mono space between nail knots can't contract when pulled since it has nails on both ends. At that point the second knot isn't doing anything. That's why if I use two nails I butt them up next to each other so there is no gap of braided mono visible in the space between the nails. At that point you have double the surface area of nails pushing the braided mono down into the core. Again it's overkill, 1 nail knot is enough to bind the braided mono to the fly line and keep it from unravelling.
> 
> Probably splitting hairs here but I have tested the connection a bunch of different ways over the past few years and this has been the most effective if you are set on having more than one nail knot.


They idea of the space is to add the glue to help lock and hold things. You're right that dby nail knots is enough. The rest is just extra insurance. I get the concept of the cinching effect of the braid.


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## afernandez (Aug 28, 2013)

Good video on nail knot to fly line. Says to half hitch the fly line in front of the nail knot to prevent slippage, which i had never seen before.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

afernandez said:


> Good video on nail knot to fly line. Says to half hitch the fly line in front of the nail knot to prevent slippage, which i had never seen before.


Just an extra bump to keep the fly line from pulling the outter pvc casing off the end of the fly line. I think it's ok on lighter rods, Say 8wt and less, but I personally wouldn't trust it for anything heavier.

Back years ago when it was easier to strip the outer PVC coating from the inner core of the tip of the flyline, we use to strip about 2-3" of outer core off the end of the fly line. Then to a nail knot with the leader as normal, near the end of the stripped core. The nail knot should be tight (use pliers to tighten your tag end of the nail knot, not your teeth (learned that the hard way over the years and my dentist gives me heck about that)). Then use the stripped core to do a huffnagle knot around the leader and cinch it tight back towards the nail knot.. Then clip the tag off. I use to use Sally Hansen's or a few drops of super glue to lock everything in, including the nail knot. Today, I would use Liquid Fusion, since it flexes a bit and wouldn't crack and break off. Then I tie in a loop about a foot or so down. Then do a loop to loop connection. I don't know what that guy was talking about with the line to leader hinging at that point, as long as it's connected with a hand shake method.

Today, stripping the outer casing off the inner core is tough with most "Good" fly lines. So I don't use that method anymore.

Ted Haas


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