# Chittum Islamorada 18 vs HB Marquesa



## pt448

*gasp* [smiley=eek2.gif] Blasphemy. I think you might be right though. HB's got some competition, which is good for us, the consumer. With the new stuff Chittum is doing and the new endeavor from Gordon and Morejohn hopefully it will push HB to do something new and interesting as well.


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## Snookdaddy

HB is doing something new, but it's in the hush hush stage...


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## pt448

> HB is doing something new, but it's in the hush hush stage...


Glad to hear it and can't wait to see it.


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## Rookiemistake

Anyone know the going rate for both chittum skiffs??


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## MariettaMike

> Anyone know the going rate for both  chittum skiffs??


$64k for the Legacy,

http://www.microskiff.com/reviews/boats/chittum-skiffs-Islamorada-18.html

It is my understanding that Marquesa's have gone up from the 2014 $53k base price I was quoted last year. (All HB's have.)

I recall Capt John Kipp saying $44k for the Performance, and the cost difference is all shop time and labor reductions by using gelcoat instead of epoxy. (75 pounds hull weight difference or $267/lb)


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## jsnipes

The new model (2 degree) w 50hp = 46k what i was told.


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## Shadow

There are good things to come from the House of Chittum.


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## Sheremeta

I was told Hal is building these boats in Flagler estates. Not sure how true that is but it came from a good source. If that's true I would not buy one ( you have to know where Flagler estates is to understand).


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## byrdseye

> I was told Hal is building these boats in Flagler estates. Not sure how true that is but it came from a good source. If that's true I would not buy one ( you have to know where Flagler estates is to understand).


Nope, they're being built in Stuart.


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## Sheremeta

This was after your build. BTW when your back in St Augustine I'm ready to take you up on your offer. I will show you the flounder hole.


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## Rookiemistake

Im in jax wanna take a ride for some flounder haha. I have a few up here myself!


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## byrdseye

> This was after your build.  BTW when your back in St Augustine I'm ready to take you up on your offer. I will show you the flounder hole.



I'd love to get out sometime........ Hal just recently moved the factory to Stuart.


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## obrientimm

I looked at the Chittum before going with my Professional. Nice boat. I spoke with keys guides about it and guides from Bear Holeman to Rob Fordyce didn't have that many great things to say. The basic deal breaker was that Hal outsources the boat build around. It's not completed all under one roof. Which means warranty will be a nightmare. But most of the people I know who've bought them are financially well off and that is not an issue for them.


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## fishman

Posted by: Snookdaddy Posted on: Apr 24th, 2015 at 2:08pm
HB is doing something new, but it's in the hush hush stage...


THE BIG SECRET for HELLS BAY is they are making a bay boat. My wifes sisters boy friend work for HB. They will be revealing it at the end of 2015.


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## suvtillerdriver

something like this.

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/2005-HELLS-BAY-Center-Console-Sportfish-Center-Console-102263396


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## cutrunner

I love how there's so many people that don't know about that boat. Egret has one too


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## fishman

The boat that HB will be debuting at the end of 2015 is a BAY boat NOT a high gunnel open fisherman center console. IT WILL BE SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAN ANYTHING THEY HAVE BUILT IN THE PAST.


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## devrep

stop shouting, hells bay isn't all that.


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## Megalops

HOW MUCH????


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## fishman

> stop shouting, hells bay isn't all that.


Hey they are damn good boats that hold there value. And if you own it long enough you can sell it for more than paid new. 99% of all HB owners are extremely satisfied with performance, draft, ease of poling, and the many boat ramp offers to sell. ............ SORRY YOU DONT OWN ONE. ;D


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## BCPD199

> This was after your build.  BTW when your back in St Augustine I'm ready to take you up on your offer. I will show you the flounder hole.


I'm in Palm Coast and will gladly take you out for a flounder hole location!


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## BCPD199

> THE BIG SECRET for  HELLS BAY is they are making a bay boat. My wifes sisters boy friend work for HB. They will be revealing it at the end of 2015.


I can confirm this. I was at the HB plant a couple of weeks ago and saw the prototype. It will be a good looking bay boat, I will tell you that.


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## Megalops

> stop shouting, hells bay isn't all that.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey they are damn good boats that hold there value. And if you own it long enough you can sell it for more than paid new. 99% of all HB owners are extremely satisfied with performance, draft, ease of poling, and the many boat ramp offers to sell.   ............ SORRY YOU DONT OWN ONE. ;D
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm a big fan of HB (East cape, Chittum, too) but no brand new skiff appreciates in value. Your saying that someone who buys a 60k Marquesa today is going to sell it for more than 60k in what? 5 years 10? And, if I'm laying out 60k for a skiff, I better be 100% satisfied, not 99%. 

The smart guys are the ones buying a used HB after they take a hit from depreciation.


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## hmaadd29

I think what he is saying is some hb's gordons bt's have sold for more than new ones 8 years down the road. 

I've noticed a couple gordons sell for more than new price recently. I still have a couple emails from Tom when I priced them in 07 so I know what he was selling them for. He sold me an 04 hb pro in 07 for 18k. I also have quotes from Mark and some of his skifs are also selling for new prices.

I wouldn't buy a new one today hoping for those same results. lol


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## Megalops

Thanks for the clarification had!


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## fishman

I am a good example. I have a real example of selling a HB for more than I paid new . I purchased a 2001 18' Waterman for 18,000 with 50 hp yamaha. I sold it in 2014 for 22,000 with the same motor. Not one spider crack anywhere. Skiff was in mint condition.


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## pt448

I'm a little disappointed Hell's Bay's new project is a bay boat. There are so many out there already I don't know what they could do that hasn't been done other than put there name on it and charge a lot of money. Maybe they're just looking to give Gordon some competition since he's branching back into the skiff market.


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## el9surf

If they can sell a bay boat for 80k + they can potentially become more profitable. With a limited production capacity it could be beneficial for them to have an additional segmet at a higher price point. Aside from that there is an inshore / nearshore market that is familiar with their brand and level of quality. Should be a home run for them as long as the hull design can stand up to the competition.


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## jsnipes

Yea, it's a pretty no-brainer business decision.

Do you think MBC makes more from Maverick or Pathfinder....


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## byrdseye

> I looked at the Chittum before going with my Professional.  Nice boat. I spoke with keys guides about it and guides from Bear Holeman to Rob Fordyce didn't have that many great things to say. The basic deal breaker was that Hal outsources the boat build around. It's not completed all under one roof. Which means warranty will be a nightmare.  But most of the people I know
> who've bought them are financially well off and that is not an issue for them.



Hal does everything in house now at his new place..........the only thing outsourced at present is the rigging which is done by Islamarine (a very good choice!)


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## pt448

> If they can sell a bay boat for 80k + they can potentially become more profitable. With a limited production capacity it could be beneficial for them to have an additional segmet at a higher price point. Aside from that there is an inshore / nearshore market that is familiar with their brand and level of quality. Should be a home run for them as long as the hull design can stand up to the competition.


I'm sure they can make money doing it or they wouldn't be doing it.  HB has developed a great brand that brings a premium price.  I'm disappointed because it's not interesting.  Bay boats have been done to death and I don't see how they can make one better than Tom.



> Yea, it's a pretty no-brainer business decision.
> 
> Do you think MBC makes more from Maverick or Pathfinder....


Pathfinder has been around for a long time and is established as a top player in the bay boat market.  HB is new to the bay boat game and unless their design drafts 10" and runs smooth and dry in 4' seas I don't see anything new they can bring to the table other than build quality.  There's a reason they don't make those center consoles anymore.

Chittum's skiffs are interesting and pushing the limits.  What Tom and Chris are doing is new and interesting as is evident by reading Chris' blog.  The ECC glide and evo, the Beavertail lightning, The shadowcast 18 combining a super aggressive tunnel with awesome poling characteristics; that's interesting.  JMHO, but a bay boat is kinda bland.  Hope I'm wrong and it's the greatest bay boat the world has ever seen.

Also, on a more on topic note, I'm glad to see Chittum's got everything in house and is building a great skiff.  The performance he's gotten out of a boat that size with a 50hp is awesome.


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## MSG

The Chittum is a very intriguing boat, to me. One thing to be clear on with the Chittum, it is a really the beam of less than 16 foot boat, with an 18 foot length, as the top cap extends quite far over on each side, which is one of the reasons it's supposed to run very well (it is not much boat to push through the water - very clever compromise). A Hell's bay Whipray has a 70" beam, and the Chittum is only 56" at the waterline, but 80" on the top cap. It should create very little drag and it does - however, the compromise is going to be stability - choose your poison - all these skiffs are compromises.


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## Megalops

> I am a good example. I have a real example of selling a HB for more than I paid new .  I purchased a 2001 18' Waterman for 18,000 with 50 hp yamaha. I sold it in 2014 for 22,000 with the same motor.  Not one spider crack anywhere. Skiff was in mint condition.


Well I stand corrected!! (Hey, it's still effed up that u sold for more than u paid  ;D)


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## MariettaMike

Chittum tiller testing


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## [email protected]

that grab bar looks a little familiar. I feel like I've seen it on a skiff on this form.


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## sotilloa1078

There are a lot of good skiffs out there. The chittum is a nice boat and dry running. My buddy has one and actually said my Professional poles better. But his boat is drier and softer in the rough stuff. The new Chittum coming out is the 2degree dead rise, which will not have the same ride as the model mentioned above. The Marquesa is a much bigger boat than the Chittum so a comparison isn't really fair. 

HB is developing a bay boat at the time. But I wouldn't be surprised if the have something else right behind that. Just saying.


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## MariettaMike

The super light sans cap 2 degree SS model. They posted a video of this boat running that shows how those chines under the bow deflect the spray down.

https://www.facebook.com/ChittumSkiffs?fref=photo


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## Net 30

Great concept and weight savings on the Chittum. 

IMO, I just wish it was better looking! I don't think it has the same classic look as a Hells Bay or East Cape…just sayin.


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## Shalla Wata Rider

Good eye Spruce...LOL No wonder your work is so meticulously clean... 
Net... It looks much better with the cap on ti... 
some think a cowboy hat with a wide brim looks silly... but the person wearing it loves the shade ... sometimes function trumps fashion...or you do the best to merge the two,as was done here...
It may look like I'm hanging on for life on the bow but I'm actually coming up from studying the water flow on the entry... 
There are some really cool things soon to come...


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## grovesnatcher

I agree with net30 the lines of the hull are not attractive. I'm sure it's a nice boat but if I'm spending a lot of money I want a good looking hull also. Part of the flats fishin experience is feeling a little spray. It's ok were on the water, when the wind is blowing stiff your going to get some spray no matter how big a spray rail you make. I'd rather get a little spray and pay 30k less now that would impress me as a consumer. IMHO


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## MariettaMike

> when the wind is blowing stiff your going to get some spray no matter how big a spray rail you make.


My experience in the Chittum Islamorada 18 says you're wrong. Every time I thought there would surely be at least a little spray there was not one drop came above or across the rub rail.

With expensive gear in the cockpit I think keeping salt spray off of it is worth every penny over the life of the boat.


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## MSG

"Part of the flats fishin experience is feeling a little spray"

I can do without this part of the experience.


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## grovesnatcher

Mike I'll have to take your word for it, is the boat your talking about the one in the picture? Or a different model, if it's that boat in the picture where are you testing it?


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## Net 30

> I agree with net30 the lines of the hull are not attractive. I'm sure it's a nice boat but if I'm spending a lot of money I want a good looking hull also. Part of the flats fishin experience is feeling a little spray. It's ok were on the water, when the wind is blowing stiff your going to get some spray no matter how big a spray rail you make. I'd rather get a little spray and pay 30k less now that would impress me as a consumer. IMHO


I've seen the pics of the Chittum SS over at Tribenwater and IMO it still doesn't have the special look as a 16 Whipray, 17.8 or Caimen.

I'm surprised Hal didn't get Chris Morejohn involved in the development of the esthetics of the skiff. Still an impressive build and state of the art next step in skiff tech.


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## MariettaMike

> Mike I'll have to take your word for it, is the boat your talking about the one in the picture? Or a different model, if it's that boat in the picture where are you testing it?


Not the one in the pic. I fished with Capt John Kipp out of the Lorelei on a 20+mph wind day in his 12 degree vee Legacy. We went oceanside in some really sloppy stuff and not a drop of spray went above the rub rail.

BTW Capt Rob Fordyce was launching ahead of us and I asked him how dry his new HPX-S rode. His answer was "The driest boat I've ever owned, but its not as dry as that boat." while pointing at the Islamorada 18."


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## grovesnatcher

Thanks I hope I get to try a chittiums skiff one day. Been in all the others over about 35 years on the water and never been in a totally dry skiff on a choppy quartering sea on a windy day. Some are better than others, I enjoy a dry ride but it really doesn't bother me on a hot day, I normally like to get in the water to cool off anyway. I love boats so it's great to have so many choices in great skiffs.


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## Sheremeta

> I agree with net30 the lines of the hull are not attractive. I'm sure it's a nice boat but if I'm spending a lot of money I want a good looking hull also. Part of the flats fishin experience is feeling a little spray. It's ok were on the water, when the wind is blowing stiff your going to get some spray no matter how big a spray rail you make. I'd rather get a little spray and pay 30k less now that would impress me as a consumer. IMHO


I have seen 3 Islamoradas in person when I was having work done on a boat. They are very sharp looking in person. I have seen a blue 
Islamorada at the ramp and they clear coated the transom so you could see the carbon fiber. You can tell that the design has been changed just enough to avoid a lawsuit. 

If the owners are reading this you should build a better website. It's not matching the level of product you are selling.


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## Shalla Wata Rider

Grove, We test ran it in a private 50+acre lake in Palm City...There have been a few inter coastal runs With fantastic results ... going to break out the "Salerno slipper" tomorrow and film some so it can be studied better...
Casa,Thanks, I'll pass on your thoughts (website)


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## swampfox

You can tell that the design has been changed just enough to avoid a lawsuit. 

If the owners are reading this you should build a better website. It's not matching the level of product you are selling. [/quote]

casa what are referring to here? Have I missed something? Did Chitum Skiffs change hands or something? Or did someone splash one already?


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## [email protected]

Idk what your referring to with the lawsuit thing. But just a bit of information. HB never put a patent on their first skiffs. "The Whipray". I'm. Pretty sure they did the 17.8 Pro and everything after. But after something is in production for I think it's a year, it becomes common knoladge. And anyone has the rights to copy it I think that's why HB couldn't sue BT and actually paid them to stop producing their hulls. And why there's so many hulls that use the HB signature spray rails.


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## Sheremeta

I am referring to the Vessel Hull Design Protection Act of 1997 passed by the 105th congress which added further protection under federal copyright laws for original designs of hulls that make a boat attractive or distinctive to the marketplace.  The act extended protection rights through a 10 year protection for an original vessel design. This is on top of intellectual patent protection.   A knowledgeable experienced patent attorney can also provide further protection for specific design features that may not necessarily be considered aesthetic features but more functional design features such as a distinctive spray rail. I was not talking negatively about the design of the boat rather pointing out the observation that there appears to be a intentional design to the spray rail to set it apart from other well known hulls. Recently there have been a few examples of designs that were close enough to warrant cease and desist notices to be issued. I also don't beleive that you necessarily need to file a patent on an aesthetic design which is similar to an artists intellectual property right. I don't know if this is true as I do not practice patent law however due to the investment in both time and capital to design a high end skiff I would consider it a good business decision to ensure my product design differs enough from triggering an attempted shut down from a deep pocket competitor. 

If I had to choose between the two boats I would go with the chitum with the 2 degree dead rise (as long as it wasn't being built in Flagler estates)


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## Shalla Wata Rider

Casa, Very nice with the Legal Ease ...  
All the magic will be happening in Palm City...(west of Stuart)...
The 2 degree(SS) ran awesome yesterday...very breezy and rough and not a drop in the boat .... even when my bro-in law tried  to  bury the nose with full tabs under 3/4 throttle... ;D
He Got scared and Backed off... Hal was laughing....
Through all the slop  ...Bone Dry...    
.......... There's much more to come...


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## gheenoelotide

> I am referring to the Vessel Hull Design Protection Act of 1997 passed by the 105th congress which added further protection under federal copyright laws for original designs of hulls that make a boat attractive or distinctive to the marketplace.  The act extended protection rights through a 10 year protection for an original vessel design. This is on top of intellectual patent protection.   A knowledgeable experienced patent attorney can also provide further protection for specific design features that may not necessarily be considered aesthetic features but more functional design features such as a distinctive spray rail. I was not talking negatively about the design of the boat rather pointing out the observation that there appears to be a intentional design to the spray rail to set it apart from other well known hulls. Recently there have been a few examples of designs that were close enough to warrant cease and desist notices to be issued. I also don't beleive that you necessarily need to file a patent on an aesthetic design which is similar to an artists intellectual property right. I don't know if this is true as I do not practice patent law however due to the investment in both time and capital to design a high end skiff I would consider it a good business decision to ensure my product design differs enough from triggering an attempted shut down from a deep pocket competitor.
> 
> If I had to choose between the two boats I would go with the chitum with the 2 degree dead rise (as long as it wasn't being built in Flagler estates)



makes me wonder about chittum spray rail vs ECC spray rail...


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## pt448

They're both big but they look pretty different to me. Plus a spray rail is a spray rail (bit of an oversimplification). They've all got them to some extent. That would be like one auto maker suing another because they're mudflaps look too similar.


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## Sheremeta

Well just keep in mind it all comes down to a judgement or jury's decision. A talented attorney can sway judge and jury into seeing their side of the argument. Case law in Florida isn't very supportive on either side of the argument however all it takes is a new trial, talented attorney and judgment to change direction (and a lot of money).

In simpler terms ask yourself this question. What would happen if you copied the eastcape line of skiffs and started a production line and became successful doing so? I am not talking about making a similar design but splashing each skiff and making molds. I am sure you would hear from eastcape fairly quickly. It may never go all the way to trial for financial reasons both on the side of the plaintiff or defendant but the action of copying a design for profit would probably stop. 

Now this is just my opinion on the spray rails they do make a certain line of skiffs distinctive as well as preform a function. Unlike sponsons those specific rails are relatively a new innovation in a time where our society protects the intellectual property rights of the creator. I would think an exact copy of them on a skiff that also shared similar design attributes would not sit well with the original manufacturer. 

Again this is just my opinion.


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## swampfox

I see no resemblance between this and a Vantage if that what you are referencing. Other than both are too big and too close to the edge. You better keep some bumpers in the boat for docking. All it takes is a bit of wake while tied off. And your spray rail is getting chipped on the barnacles.


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## MSG

good point about the rail being close to the edge


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## MSG

good point about the rail being close to the edge


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## gheenoelotide

not looking to spark controversy in any way, just for reference. 

east cape fury:



islamorada:


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## gheenoelotide

and sorry for the derail


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## swampfox

The Chittum finishes off into the hull before the nose. And they are shorter on a inward angle. The Fury cap looks like a lid on a 5 gallon bucket. The rails are nearly straight down and wraps around the nose. Definitely not one of ECCs sexier designs. The Vantage looks more like the Chittum to me. Yeah it's similar in ways. It's also pointy on one end and square in the back ;D


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## acraft1720

Look at the reverse chine of an 80's Boston Whaler (Outrage 18') which is one of the driest boats ever built and the bow of the Fury in that photo looks a lot like it. I guess calling them spray rails makes them different?


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## MSG

The Chittums are more like true spray rails - they are not closed on the bottom. The vantage chine is past of the hull. 

I can't imagine anyone really interested in buying either one of these boats would be considering the other.


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## nsbsurfer15

> Idk what your referring to with the lawsuit thing. But just a bit of information. HB never put a patent on their first skiffs. "The Whipray". I'm. Pretty sure they did the 17.8 Pro and everything after. But after something is in production for I think it's a year, it becomes common knoladge. And anyone has the rights to copy it  I think that's why HB couldn't sue BT and actually paid them to stop producing their hulls. And why there's so many hulls that use the HB signature spray rails.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on Mark Fisher's ethics... I wouldnt believe too much that comes out of his mouth in a press release.
Click to expand...

As if this thread wasn't long enough already lol


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## swampfox

Did BT splash HB or something? Was there a long drawn out lawsuit involving some pics of cut up molds? Did I miss something here? Please fill me in ;D


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## Sheremeta

If you really want to be bored we can go over the fundamentals of patent law as well as copyrights, trademarks and trade dress infringement.


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## pt448

> THE BIG SECRET for  HELLS BAY is they are making a bay boat. My wifes sisters boy friend work for HB. They will be revealing it at the end of 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> I can confirm this.  I was at the HB plant a couple of weeks ago and saw the prototype.  It will be a good looking bay boat, I will tell you that.
Click to expand...

It's here.

https://vimeo.com/129922856


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## Net 30

> THE BIG SECRET for  HELLS BAY is they are making a bay boat. My wifes sisters boy friend work for HB. They will be revealing it at the end of 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> I can confirm this.  I was at the HB plant a couple of weeks ago and saw the prototype.  It will be a good looking bay boat, I will tell you that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's here.
> https://vimeo.com/129922856
Click to expand...


Man…….I'm a big fan of the brand but that things is Butt Fugly!


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## MSG

Gotta agree - no beauty queen. Looks like it runs and rides bad, (real thick and not much vee at the waterline). Not sure what the design criteria was - bu I bet it floats skinny for what it is and the thought was that it be a "stealthy" bay boat. Not sure that's what the world wants in a 24 foot boat.


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## westsidefly

I’m more curious to hear from people who have experience on a Marquesa and a Islamorada. Is the Marquesa the best comparison? Has anybody seen the SS models, what are the differences?


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## pt448

> Man…….I'm a big fan of the brand but that things is Butt Fugly!


I have to agree, and I bet they'll charge about $100k fully rigged.



> I’m more curious to hear from people who have experience on a Marquesa and a Islamorada. Is the Marquesa the best comparison? Has anybody seen the SS models, what are the differences?


You're right.  This thread has gone in too many different directions (and I'm one of the one's to blame).  Some have said the 2 are not in the same category because the Chittum only has similar specs because it's a large cap on a smaller hull, but the initial comparison was that the Islamorada 18 rides considerably smoother, dryer, and more comfortable in big/rough water than the Marquesa.  That's a big part of the reason people choose the Marquesa.  The Chittum can also handle up to 150hp (which seems a little crazy).  There are a few different versions of the Islamorada 18 as well so that makes a comparison a little hard to nail down.  It seems like with the rising costs of a new HB or Maverick and Chittum now producing a lower cost version the Islamorada 18 should be one to check out for anyone looking for a high end skiff.


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## MariettaMike

Don't try this with a Marquesa, Biscayne, Waterman, Pro,....


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## Net 30

Anyone hear anything about the new Chittum Advantage Edition? 

Saw the Facebook page and it looks like they made a completely new hull. $46k boat motor and trailer. Looks like at that price it's gonna give HB and East Cape a bit of competition.


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## Backwater

pt448 said:


> It's here.


That thing's ugly!


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## pt448

Backwater said:


> That thing's ugly!


Extremely. I saw on their Facebook page last night though that they had just completed the hull mold for their 24 and hadn't even started the deck mold so maybe the actual finished product won't be that bad.


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## Backwater

MariettaMike said:


> Don't try this with a Marquesa, Biscayne, Waterman, Pro,....


Sweet!


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## westsidefly

I guess the rumors are true. Judging by the pictures, here and FB, it looks like it's at least 18. Not much if any dead rise at the transom. At a price point of 46, this should be some serious competition.

I can't wait to see the finished product!


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## MariettaMike

westsidefly said:


> I guess the rumors are true. Judging by the pictures, here and FB, it looks like it's at least 18. Not much if any dead rise at the transom. At a price point of 46, this should be some serious competition.
> 
> I can't wait to see the finished product!


They will use the same 18' cap on the 2 degree and 12 degree dead rise hulls.

Considering you can buy three Cayo 173 rigs for $46k, and Cayo has a back-log to March 2016, it would appear patience and wallets have worn thin for some potential buyers.

Heck, even Glasser is wet testing his skiff with a 60 HP tiller, and might be delivering skiffs sooner than Chittum.


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## Net 30

MariettaMike said:


> They will use the same 18' cap on the 2 degree and 12 degree dead rise hulls.
> 
> Considering you can buy three Cayo 173 rigs for $46k, and Cayo has a back-log to March 2016, it would appear patience and wallets have worn thin for some potential buyers.
> 
> Heck, even Glasser is wet testing his skiff with a 60 HP tiller, and might be delivering skiffs sooner than Chittum.


I'd think Hal would be a bit more forthcoming with details about this new model? From what little there is on the Facebook page, it looks like the cap layout is similar to the old 16 Whipray; large front hatch, single large rear hatch and a small crustacean well in the starboard corner.

Any idea if they changed the length or beam on this model? 
I heard they are offering it only as a side console like shown in the postings of the SS model?


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## KnotHome

Looks like an awful wet bay boat.


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## Lifeaquatic

As I understand it after a long conversation with George at Chittum Skiffs a couple of weeks ago, 46K does not get you the same specs. as Chittum Skiffs has been building over the last couple of years. This is done in order to have a skiff that is more affordable to many buyers. The 46k skiff will have a 2 degree hull without Imron finish, with different lamination schedules, a different console design, a different cap design and other changes made to reduce costs. Of course you can always upgrade to these finishes if you elected to do so for an additional cost. It sounds like they will be announcing the final specs. for the 46K skiff in the coming months to much anticipation and it will be available for testing soon after. If Chittum could deliver a $46,000 skiff to the market that is built to the original specifications I believe that it would be appealing to many out there but the numbers just don't pencil out. Until the new 46k Chittum skiff with the new specs. has been real world tested for some time the verdict will be out. Until then we will continue to hypothesize. Maybe someone from Chittum can update us in the meantime.


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## Net 30

Lifeaquatic said:


> Maybe someone from Chittum can update us in the meantime.


Thanks for the update. Let us know if you have any more discussions with George or Hal.


----------



## George Sawley

Hey Guys,
This is George from Chittum Skiffs and for the most part what has been said about our new model is true.
There are a number of changes in this model that will bring the price down and the weight. Biggest visual changes will be in the beck and console. Things you won't see are in the lamination and the labor costs.
The new model will be engineered to a 90 HP on the 12 degree hull and 70 HP on 2 degree. Lamination schedule of the Legacy transom is rated to a 150 HP motor. Reducing HP rating will change cost and weight.
Side console and center console will be offered in new model. New center console will not have a built in ice chest. Console will go straight to the deck without the built in kick that the Legacy has. The Legacy console is a labor intense piece, it takes a two part mold and extra finish work. New console is faster and less expensive to produce and lighter.
Smaller live well then Legacy, faster to build and lighter.
The knees coming off the transom supporting the transom and deck will be built lighter and have less square footage with added carbon fiber for structure.
Forward most bulkhead in front of the fuel tank that Lagacy skiffs has will be removed, structural carbon will be added for support. This will save weight and labor.
New model will have three hatches, 1 forward, 1 large aft and 1 live well hatch aft. Less hatches will save weight and labor.
So everyone knows the 12 degree hull in design is the same as the Legacy, there has been no changes to it as we don't feel there is anything we could do to improve it. As for the 2 degree we did make a few changes. We had two areas that we felt needed improvement, one was steering and the other was the stern had to much lift pushing the bow down at high speeds. Both items were taken care of to our liking and a new mold was made.
The new deck layout plug is about done and we hope to start the mold for it this week or next.

For the record when we started this project Hal was seeing a lot of guides and anglers having to own two boats to cover their fishing needs, Hal's Hells Bay clients were buying a Marquesa and a Whipray. Our goal was to build a boat that would ran drier and be more comfortable then a Marquesa and poled as well and drafted as shallow as a Whipray. We tested our prototype against the Marquesa and a Whipray on a regular bases. The Whipray we used was John Kip's that Hal had built for himself that had no floor, you could not get a lighter or better built Whipray then this one, I believe Larry Sydnor has this boat now. The Islamorada 18 only drafted a inch at most against that Whipray. But the kicker was when we did get the skiffs stuck the mud, the Islamorada would come off easier because there was less square footage in the bottom to create suction due to the dead rise and the small pad. 

In my opinion we accomplished that goal and we are looking forward to showing the industry we can produce a high tech boat at a more reasonable price. As I like to say innovation not imitation!


----------



## westsidefly

Thanks for the information, George. I can't wait to see the finished product.


----------



## Lifeaquatic

George Sawley said:


> Hey Guys,
> This is George from Chittum Skiffs and for the most part what has been said about our new model is true.
> There are a number of changes in this model that will bring the price down and the weight. Biggest visual changes will be in the beck and console. Things you won't see are in the lamination and the labor costs.
> The new model will be engineered to a 90 HP on the 12 degree hull and 70 HP on 2 degree. Lamination schedule of the Legacy transom is rated to a 150 HP motor. Reducing HP rating will change cost and weight.
> Side console and center console will be offered in new model. New center console will not have a built in ice chest. Console will go straight to the deck without the built in kick that the Legacy has. The Legacy console is a labor intense piece, it takes a two part mold and extra finish work. New console is faster and less expensive to produce and lighter.
> Smaller live well then Legacy, faster to build and lighter.
> The knees coming off the transom supporting the transom and deck will be built lighter and have less square footage with added carbon fiber for structure.
> Forward most bulkhead in front of the fuel tank that Lagacy skiffs has will be removed, structural carbon will be added for support. This will save weight and labor.
> New model will have three hatches, 1 forward, 1 large aft and 1 live well hatch aft. Less hatches will save weight and labor.
> So everyone knows the 12 degree hull in design is the same as the Legacy, there has been no changes to it as we don't feel there is anything we could do to improve it. As for the 2 degree we did make a few changes. We had two areas that we felt needed improvement, one was steering and the other was the stern had to much lift pushing the bow down at high speeds. Both items were taken care of to our liking and a new mold was made.
> The new deck layout plug is about done and we hope to start the mold for it this week or next.
> 
> For the record when we started this project Hal was seeing a lot of guides and anglers having to own two boats to cover their fishing needs, Hal's Hells Bay clients were buying a Marquesa and a Whipray. Our goal was to build a boat that would ran drier and be more comfortable then a Marquesa and poled as well and drafted as shallow as a Whipray. We tested our prototype against the Marquesa and a Whipray on a regular bases. The Whipray we used was John Kip's that Hal had built for himself that had no floor, you could not get a lighter or better built Whipray then this one, I believe Larry Sydnor has this boat now. The Islamorada 18 only drafted a inch at most against that Whipray. But the kicker was when we did get the skiffs stuck the mud, the Islamorada would come off easier because there was less square footage in the bottom to create suction due to the dead rise and the small pad.
> 
> In my opinion we accomplished that goal and we are looking forward to showing the industry we can produce a high tech boat at a more reasonable price. As I like to say innovation not imitation!


Thanks for dropping a line George. Its always nice to hear it directly from the source.


----------



## Net 30

Good update. You and Hal should start posting some pictures on here and keep the buzz going...


----------



## Creek Runner

pt448 said:


> I have to agree, and I bet they'll charge about $100k fully rigged.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right. This thread has gone in too many different directions (and I'm one of the one's to blame). Some have said the 2 are not in the same category because the Chittum only has similar specs because it's a large cap on a smaller hull, but the initial comparison was that the Islamorada 18 rides considerably smoother, dryer, and more comfortable in big/rough water than the Marquesa. That's a big part of the reason people choose the Marquesa. The Chittum can also handle up to 150hp (which seems a little crazy). There are a few different versions of the Islamorada 18 as well so that makes a comparison a little hard to nail down. It seems like with the rising costs of a new HB or Maverick and Chittum now producing a lower cost version the Islamorada 18 should be one to check out for anyone looking for a high end skiff.


My HB Marquesa is rated for a 150HP and if your getting wet in my Marquesa it's because the captain can't drive or because it's blowing hard enough that your going to get wet in any 18' flats/technical skiff. The Islamorda may ride a little better because it's a lot narrower at the water line, but as with anything there is a trade off. The same narrow bottom that allows it to ride a little better also makes it a lot more unstable . 

I'm of course talking about the 12 degree boat, the 2 degree boat shouldn't be compared to the Marquesa but more to an HPXS, PRO, or Whip.


----------



## George Sawley

Creek Runner said:


> My HB Marquesa is rated for a 150HP and if your getting wet in my Marquesa it's because the captain can't drive or because it's blowing hard enough that your going to get wet in any 18' flats/technical skiff. The Islamorda may ride a little better because it's a lot narrower at the water line, but as with anything there is a trade off. The same narrow bottom that allows it to ride a little better also makes it a lot more unstable .
> 
> I'm of course talking about the 12 degree boat, the 2 degree boat shouldn't be compared to the Marquesa but more to an HPXS, PRO, or Whip.


I don't know about a lot more unstable. Being more narrow and lighter does not make the skiff unstable, it does give it a more buoyant or corky feeling and more active yes, but not unstable. It still takes a pretty big guy to dip the out board corner. The Islamorada 18 Legacy is also rated for a 150HP as well and I have heard of speeds up to 67 mph from our client Carlos Duncan with Capt. Rob Fordyce at the helm with a E-Tec 150HP. I personally have been 54 mph with a 115HP and 64 mph with the 150HP. But as we say jokingly around the shop, the Islamorada 18 isn't half the boat the Marquesa is....if you know what I mean!

By the way I should have mentioned with the new model we have coming out. If you want the bigger motor we will beef up the lamination and core to take it at a added cost of course.


----------



## Creek Runner

George Sawley said:


> I don't know about a lot more unstable. Being more narrow and lighter does not make the skiff unstable, it does give it a more buoyant or corky feeling and more active yes, but not unstable. It still takes a pretty big guy to dip the out board corner. The Islamorada 18 Legacy is also rated for a 150HP as well and I have heard of speeds up to 67 mph from our client Carlos Duncan with Capt. Rob Fordyce at the helm with a E-Tec 150HP. I personally have been 54 mph with a 115HP and 64 mph with the 150HP. But as we say jokingly around the shop, the Islamorada 18 isn't half the boat the Marquesa is....if you know what I mean!
> 
> By the way I should have mentioned with the new model we have coming out. If you want the bigger motor we will beef up the lamination and core to take it at a added cost of course.


Sir I respect your opinion but a play on words is all the is, the definition of Stable is (not likely to change) and a skiff with a 56" waterline beam (going off memory) with 12 degrees of dead-rise vs an 79" waterline beam with the same degree of dead-rise is more likely to change when walking from one side to the other. 

As for dipping the outboard corner that really has nothing to do with how stable the boat and more about how much free-board the skiff has. The Maverick 18' HPXV is a very stable skiff, but due to the low free-board at the stern of the skiff it's very easy to dip the outboard corner. 

You build a very nice skiff and I looked at them in detail when you were still building them in St. Augustine before I bought my Marquesa. Good luck with you new skiff. 

Creek


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## George Sawley

Creek Runner said:


> Sir I respect your opinion but a play on words is all the is, the definition of Stable is (not likely to change) and a skiff with a 56" waterline beam (going off memory) with 12 degrees of dead-rise vs an 79" waterline beam with the same degree of dead-rise is more likely to change when walking from one side to the other.
> 
> As for dipping the outboard corner that really has nothing to do with how stable the boat and more about how much free-board the skiff has. The Maverick 18' HPXV is a very stable skiff, but due to the low free-board at the stern of the skiff it's very easy to dip the outboard corner.
> 
> You build a very nice skiff and I looked at them in detail when you were still building them in St. Augustine before I bought my Marquesa. Good luck with you new skiff.
> 
> Creek





Creek Runner said:


> Sir I respect your opinion but a play on words is all the is, the definition of Stable is (not likely to change) and a skiff with a 56" waterline beam (going off memory) with 12 degrees of dead-rise vs an 79" waterline beam with the same degree of dead-rise is more likely to change when walking from one side to the other.
> 
> As for dipping the outboard corner that really has nothing to do with how stable the boat and more about how much free-board the skiff has. The Maverick 18' HPXV is a very stable skiff, but due to the low free-board at the stern of the skiff it's very easy to dip the outboard corner.
> 
> You build a very nice skiff and I looked at them in detail when you were still building them in St. Augustine before I bought my Marquesa. Good luck with you new skiff.
> 
> Creek


Hey no problem Creek, I was just addressing your statement "a lot more unstable" no play on words....these are facts that come along with a skiff thats half the weight. If the Islamorada weight was 950 pounds unrigged like the Marquesa the 56" chine beam would help roll the skiff over pretty fast and hard but we are 450 so it is not apples to apples for sure. But with all skiffs and designs there is a trade off and a compromise. Our focus is on poling ability and efficiency, to get there you must be light. 
Feel free to come by our new shop in the future!


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## Net 30

George Sawley said:


> I don't know about a lot more unstable. Being more narrow and lighter does not make the skiff unstable, it does give it a more buoyant or corky feeling and more active yes, but not unstable. It still takes a pretty big guy to dip the out board corner. The Islamorada 18 Legacy is also rated for a 150HP as well and I have heard of speeds up to 67 mph from our client Carlos Duncan with Capt. Rob Fordyce at the helm with a E-Tec 150HP. I personally have been 54 mph with a 115HP and 64 mph with the 150HP. But as we say jokingly around the shop, the Islamorada 18 isn't half the boat the Marquesa is....if you know what I mean!
> 
> By the way I should have mentioned with the new model we have coming out. If you want the bigger motor we will beef up the lamination and core to take it at a added cost of course.


Curious to get your opinion on how the 2 degree Islamorada Advantage compares to the Classic 16 Whip. I fished on Kipp's old Whip and it was crazy light but I'm mostly curious about a side console in comparison.

What's the lowest HP you would run on the new 2 degree?

Thanks.


----------



## George Sawley

Net 30 said:


> Curious to get your opinion on how the 2 degree Islamorada Advantage compares to the Classic 16 Whip. I fished on Kipp's old Whip and it was crazy light but I'm mostly curious about a side console in comparison.
> 
> What's the lowest HP you would run on the new 2 degree?
> 
> Thanks.


The Islamorada 2 degree draws quite a bit less water than John's Whipray. It is lighter than his Whipray and will pole easier, it is much quieter than a Whipray and has a noticeably better ride because it is longer. It holds better in a turn than a Whipray. It is a far drier boat than a Whipray or any other skiff. It would run great with a 40 HP but no one but Tohatsu makes a short shaft engine and the Tohatsu 40 is the same weight as the 50 Tohatsu 4Stroke so I would do that motor. No one has tried it but it would probably run as well as the older, lighter Whiprays with a 25 Merc 2 stroke. By every measurable item, it will beat even the older, lighter Whipray by a wide margin.

I think the side console on any light skiff is a bit of a problem because the operator weight all the way to the side makes it more difficult to trim that side up in a quartering sea on that side. Especially a big person. But I like my side console.


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## Blue Zone

George,

I know you are merely responding to questions. 
However, it might be better to address those points without dumping on HB at every opportunity. If your skiff is pretty much at a prototype stage and not subject to objective scrutiny and comparison, none of your posts are terribly convincing. By the way, I am not an HB fan/owner.

Otherwise, I found this thread quite interesting. Good luck with the new skiff.


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## George Sawley

Blue Zone said:


> George,
> 
> I know you are merely responding to questions.
> However, it might be better to address those points without dumping on HB at every opportunity. If your skiff is pretty much at a prototype stage and not subject to objective scrutiny and comparison, none of your posts are terribly convincing. By the way, I am not an HB fan/owner.
> 
> Otherwise, I found this thread quite interesting. Good luck with the new skiff.


Great post, But remember, Hal Chittum was the real founder of Hells Bay and he knows that product better then they do.... as I have been schooled by Hal I believe we or he can use them as a comparison and I can give you a real world comparison between the skiffs in question. We have not been wrong yet!

I am not bumping on Hells Bay,, Hal did a great job putting that company where it is today, anything I post is factual. Its your responsibility as a buyer to investigate for yourself.


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## George Sawley

Lets talk about boat builders.... do you want to buy a boat from a guy that is a hobbyist or are real fisherman that wants a better boat for fishing that has a true passion and ability for it.


Apte: Hal Chittum was my guide when I broke the record twice in one day on six-pound- class. The record on fly: 82½ pounds. And on bait-casting or spinning tackle six-pound-class with an artificial. That was 107½ pounds. You know that 82½-pounder is the longest still standing tarpon record. Did you know that?

http://midcurrent.com/books/stu-apte-a-passion-for-tarpon/


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## George Sawley

https://books.google.com/books?id=nkT5bq92ItwC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=Hal+Chittum+and+Billy+Pate&source=bl&ots=Rg_8QIFtF_&sig=quFk6cVY2vITW81bOW7ZKvIrZC4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCoQ6AEwBGoVChMI3bLqgMSHyQIVBOkmCh01FwIo#v=onepage&q=Hal Chittum and Billy Pate&f=false


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## George Sawley

Further more, I met Chris Morejohn once when Hal took him on a ride on the Islamorada 18 and I know Tom Jordan pretty well as he rigged a few of our skiffs but they are not end users of the boats they build or boats they are re designing. They were both brought to the industry by Hal as far as I know. I really like Chris as he is a true sea dog with his sailboat he built while working at Hells Bay, I really enjoy following him on FB and his blog, I have worked the down Islands a few times and he is really living the life. Chris definitely was a big part of Hells Bay and I know Hal has high regard for him and truly appreciates his input and help in putting Hells Bay where it is today, unlike current ownership. But fisherman know best what they need, not builders, marketing or sales people. Fishing is not getting any easier. You need to cover more ground and stealth is very important. Do you want a guy to design and build you a skiff thats been there and done that or not?


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## Net 30

George Sawley said:


> The Islamorada 2 degree draws quite a bit less water than John's Whipray. It is lighter than his Whipray and will pole easier, it is much quieter than a Whipray and has a noticeably better ride because it is longer. It holds better in a turn than a Whipray. It is a far drier boat than a Whipray or any other skiff. It would run great with a 40 HP but no one but Tohatsu makes a short shaft engine and the Tohatsu 40 is the same weight as the 50 Tohatsu 4Stroke so I would do that motor. No one has tried it but it would probably run as well as the older, lighter Whiprays with a 25 Merc 2 stroke. By every measurable item, it will beat even the older, lighter Whipray by a wide margin.
> 
> I think the side console on any light skiff is a bit of a problem because the operator weight all the way to the side makes it more difficult to trim that side up in a quartering sea on that side. Especially a big person. But I like my side console.


Good feedback….thanks. 

Looking forward to stopping by once the first skiff is complete and taking a look in-person.


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## George Sawley

Blue Zone said:


> George,
> 
> I know you are merely responding to questions.
> However, it might be better to address those points without dumping on HB at every opportunity. If your skiff is pretty much at a prototype stage and not subject to objective scrutiny and comparison, none of your posts are terribly convincing. By the way, I am not an HB fan/owner.
> 
> Otherwise, I found this thread quite interesting. Good luck with the new skiff.


When we came out with our skiff at Chittum it was somewhat the same. as no one thought we could improve on a Hells Bay but we did. But that skiff was very expensive, now we are bridging that gap....


----------



## Creek Runner

George Sawley said:


> Hey no problem Creek, I was just addressing your statement "a lot more unstable" no play on words....these are facts that come along with a skiff thats half the weight. If the Islamorada weight was 950 pounds unrigged like the Marquesa the 56" chine beam would help roll the skiff over pretty fast and hard but we are 450 so it is not apples to apples for sure. But with all skiffs and designs there is a trade off and a compromise. Our focus is on poling ability and efficiency, to get there you must be light.
> Feel free to come by our new shop in the future!


No worries George we can go back and fourth all day, just as I said the Islamorada might ride a little better due to the narrower beam the added weight in the Marquesa will help its ride in the real rough stuff, while cutting weight in the Islamorda allows it to pole easier, it also adds cost to the skiff which raises the retail price. Everything has a trade off. Cause and Effect sometimes the effect is good and sometimes its bad. 

As another poster said, bashing HB or any other skiff manufacture doesn't win brownie points. And while you think your skiff, that you sale to customers for a profit does everything better than any other skiff out there. For me that wasn't the case I shopped every builder out there and while your skiff did somethings better than my current skiff it was not superior in every aspect, or trust me I would have purchased an Islamorada. I actually saw a better value in the skiff I decided to purchase which is the reason I bought it and I have loved every minute that the good lord has blessed me to spend on it. 

There is another guy on here that made the statement that another manufacture has designed the best fly fishing skiff in the world ever produced. He had a lot of credentials and wrote with excellent punctuation, you two guys should start a thread and debate the best skiff in the world. It would be great to read , as for me I'm just a dumb ole fisherman chasing tails as much as I can. 

As I have said so many times before if a customer is looking to purchase a new skiff, they should do their own research not on a forum but out on the water wet testing all the skiffs they can and make an informed decision that best meet their needs. 

Tight lines 
Creek


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## George Sawley

I also think our crowned deck look better then a flat deck and its easier to clean as water rolls off better and its stronger, Just saying.... I am also open to questions and constructive criticism.


----------



## coconutgroves

Blue Zone said:


> George,
> 
> I know you are merely responding to questions.
> However, it might be better to address those points without dumping on HB at every opportunity. If your skiff is pretty much at a prototype stage and not subject to objective scrutiny and comparison, none of your posts are terribly convincing. By the way, I am not an HB fan/owner.
> 
> Otherwise, I found this thread quite interesting. Good luck with the new skiff.


This is actually one of the more interesting threads I've seen recently on this board. Comparison and contrast is appreciated, especially by me - I don't need every post to kiss every boat maker's butt. The insight George has provided is worth the read, and hell, I learned a few things from it. That's more than I can say for most posts.


----------



## George Sawley

Creek Runner said:


> No worries George we can go back and fourth all day, just as I said the Islamorada might ride a little better due to the narrower beam the added weight in the Marquesa will help its ride in the real rough stuff, while cutting weight in the Islamorda allows it to pole easier, it also adds cost to the skiff which raises the retail price. Everything has a trade off. Cause and Effect sometimes the effect is good and sometimes its bad.
> 
> As another poster said, bashing HB or any other skiff manufacture doesn't win brownie points. And while you think your skiff, that you sale to customers for a profit does everything better than any other skiff out there. For me that wasn't the case I shopped every builder out there and while your skiff did somethings better than my current skiff it was not superior in every aspect, or trust me I would have purchased an Islamorada. I actually saw a better value in the skiff I decided to purchase which is the reason I bought it and I have loved every minute that the good lord has blessed me to spend on it.
> 
> There is another guy on here that made the statement that another manufacture has designed the best fly fishing skiff in the world ever produced. He had a lot of credentials and wrote with excellent punctuation, you two guys should start a thread and debate the best skiff in the world. It would be great to read , as for me I'm just a dumb ole fisherman chasing tails as much as I can.
> 
> As I have said so many times before if a customer is looking to purchase a new skiff, they should do their own research not on a forum but out on the water wet testing all the skiffs they can and make an informed decision that best meet their needs.
> 
> Tight lines
> Creek


Thanks Creek, Yes we could go back and forth on what we think is a better skiff.... but I can say I am a fisherman first and a boat rider second. But if I can get the best of both worlds I'm going for that fishing boat first. Seems most people agree that the Islamorada 18 out rides the marquesa but its a little more tippy as they say, I call it active... its a little easier to figure out how to walk down the middle of the boat then having to pole a extra 500 pounds for the day, but thats your choice. But still I hope you come to the shop so we can show you what we think makes a better fishing boat!


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## LimeSukka

They need to rename this thread Glades Skiff with Marquesa cap vs i18, then it would be apples for Apples, both 56" waterline, one has a bigger cap


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## George Sawley

Creek Runner said:


> No worries George we can go back and fourth all day, just as I said the Islamorada might ride a little better due to the narrower beam the added weight in the Marquesa will help its ride in the real rough stuff, while cutting weight in the Islamorda allows it to pole easier, it also adds cost to the skiff which raises the retail price. Everything has a trade off. Cause and Effect sometimes the effect is good and sometimes its bad.
> 
> As another poster said, bashing HB or any other skiff manufacture doesn't win brownie points. And while you think your skiff, that you sale to customers for a profit does everything better than any other skiff out there. For me that wasn't the case I shopped every builder out there and while your skiff did somethings better than my current skiff it was not superior in every aspect, or trust me I would have purchased an Islamorada. I actually saw a better value in the skiff I decided to purchase which is the reason I bought it and I have loved every minute that the good lord has blessed me to spend on it.
> 
> There is another guy on here that made the statement that another manufacture has designed the best fly fishing skiff in the world ever produced. He had a lot of credentials and wrote with excellent punctuation, you two guys should start a thread and debate the best skiff in the world. It would be great to read , as for me I'm just a dumb ole fisherman chasing tails as much as I can.
> 
> As I have said so many times before if a customer is looking to purchase a new skiff, they should do their own research not on a forum but out on the water wet testing all the skiffs they can and make an informed decision that best meet their needs.
> 
> Tight lines
> Creek


Thanks Creek, Yes we could go back and forth on what we think is a better skiff.... but I can say I am a fisherman first and a boat rider second. But if I can get the best of both worlds I'm going for that fishing boat first. Seems most people agree that the Islamorada 18 out rides the marquesa but its a little more tippy as they say, I call it active... its a little easier to figure out how to walk down the middle of the boat then having to pole a extra 500 pounds for the day, but thats your choice. But still I hope you come to the shop so we can show you what we think makes a better fishing boat!


LimeSukka said:


> They need to rename this thread Glades Skiff with Marquesa cap vs i18, then it would be apples for Apples, both 56" waterline, one has a bigger cap





LimeSukka said:


> They need to rename this thread Glades Skiff with Marquesa cap vs i18, then it would be apples for Apples, both 56" waterline, one has a bigger cap


Gladeskiff. I don't know what the Glades Skiff HB is building now measures in width but Hal's GS was much narrower than the Islamorada 18.

Our boat is the same width as the original 17.8 Professional.

A properly designed boat is engineered from the start to be a certain width based on how long it is and what the final weight will be. Extra width is there if the boat is extra heavy. A wider, heavier boat needs a bigger engine and more fuel weight. The wider, heavier boat with a heavier engine and more fuel is much harder to pole. It's harder to start the acceleration with the pole, harder to reach a good poling speed when intercepting fish, much harder to spin, the boat does not glide well during a poling stroke, and it is harder to stop with a pole. The wider and heavier a skiff is, the more it can spook a fish because of the pressure waves it gives off. Ask some of the best guides and anglers that have ever poled a boat and used a super skiff for many years, how important they consider extra wide "stability" They will laugh. If you list the 10-15 things that a great flats skiff needs to do, heavy and wide will not be on that list.


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## Harlieb3

I can only speak for my self on this but I don't have the time or mean$$ to go to every shop and wet test every boat. I've narrowed my decision down to 2, now 3, boats. HPX-18, Marquesa and Islamorada 18. I've been on the HPX-18 but not the other 2. I feel like I can't go wrong with any of these. I only add the 3rd boat from some chatter at the Ft Lauderdale Boat Show and from the blogs, especially this one. I know I'm searching for the holly grail and that probably won't happen as it is all about compromise. I look at this as a 1 shot deal. I don't want to want a different boat after I make this purchase. It keeps being said that the Islamorada will be more affordable... Give me a ball park price. I'm going to purchase soon so I don't want to wait for something I can't afford. Is this new skiff going to be available in the next month or so or is it going to be some time next year? Is there already a waiting list? Thanks


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## George Sawley

Harlieb3 said:


> I can only speak for my self on this but I don't have the time or mean$$ to go to every shop and wet test every boat. I've narrowed my decision down to 2, now 3, boats. HPX-18, Marquesa and Islamorada 18. I've been on the HPX-18 but not the other 2. I feel like I can't go wrong with any of these. I only add the 3rd boat from some chatter at the Ft Lauderdale Boat Show and from the blogs, especially this one. I know I'm searching for the holly grail and that probably won't happen as it is all about compromise. I look at this as a 1 shot deal. I don't want to want a different boat after I make this purchase. It keeps being said that the Islamorada will be more affordable... Give me a ball park price. I'm going to purchase soon so I don't want to wait for something I can't afford. Is this new skiff going to be available in the next month or so or is it going to be some time next year? Is there already a waiting list? Thanks


Yes this new skiff will be out in a month or so to demo. Skiff price will start at $46,000.00 Boat, motor and trailer package. Motor offered is a Tohatsu 50 four stroke. Ramlin galvanized. Yes there is a waiting list Feb would be delivery time at this point.


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## MariettaMike

George Sawley said:


> Yes this new skiff will be out in a month or so to demo. Skiff price will start at $46,000.00 Boat, motor and trailer package. Motor offered is a Tohatsu 50 four stroke. Ramlin galvanized. Yes there is a waiting list Feb would be delivery time at this point.


Thanks for posting.


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## Net 30

George Sawley said:


> Yes this new skiff will be out in a month or so to demo. Skiff price will start at $46,000.00 Boat, motor and trailer package. Motor offered is a Tohatsu 50 four stroke. Ramlin galvanized. Yes there is a waiting list Feb would be delivery time at this point.


Hey George….PM sent


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## sjrobin

George Sawley said:


> Thanks Creek, Yes we could go back and forth on what we think is a better skiff.... but I can say I am a fisherman first and a boat rider second. But if I can get the best of both worlds I'm going for that fishing boat first. Seems most people agree that the Islamorada 18 out rides the marquesa but its a little more tippy as they say, I call it active... its a little easier to figure out how to walk down the middle of the boat then having to pole a extra 500 pounds for the day, but thats your choice. But still I hope you come to the shop so we can show you what we think makes a better fishing boat!
> 
> 
> Gladeskiff. I don't know what the Glades Skiff HB is building now measures in width but Hal's GS was much narrower than the Islamorada 18.
> 
> Our boat is the same width as the original 17.8 Professional.
> 
> A properly designed boat is engineered from the start to be a certain width based on how long it is and what the final weight will be. Extra width is there if the boat is extra heavy. A wider, heavier boat needs a bigger engine and more fuel weight. The wider, heavier boat with a heavier engine and more fuel is much harder to pole. It's harder to start the acceleration with the pole, harder to reach a good poling speed when intercepting fish, much harder to spin, the boat does not glide well during a poling stroke, and it is harder to stop with a pole. The wider and heavier a skiff is, the more it can spook a fish because of the pressure waves it gives off. Ask some of the best guides and anglers that have ever poled a boat and used a super skiff for many years, how important they consider extra wide "stability" They will laugh. If you list the 10-15 things that a great flats skiff needs to do, heavy and wide will not be on that list.


The best skiffs now should be built around the current heavier engine weights. We can not go back to the old days of poling super light boats with light weight engines. It will be good to find out how the new light weight hull will hold up after four or five years in heavy chop. Of course it would be nice for all the skiffs to be a hundred pounds lighter and much easier to push and still be able to make big water crossings with more weight on the transom.


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## George Sawley

With all due respect, your thinking is 180 degrees in the wrong direction. In the "old days" of light weight engines, the boats were beastly tankers. The old flats boats weighed a ton. Literally. There were plenty of 2,000 lb flats boats on the water. Hells Bay came along just at the end of the lightweight 2 stroke engines. What is needed now is to build the lightest, strongest boats possible so we can use smaller horsepower engines and still have acceptable speed and performance. There are new 4 stroke engines that rival the weights of the old 2 strokes. The new Tohatsu 50 4 stroke is a terrific engine and weighs 209 lbs. That is very close to the old 60 Merc 2 stroke at 219 lbs. The 70 Yamaha 4 Stroke is another great choice. When you factor in a 35-40% better fuel burn with the 4 stroke, you can carry less fuel weight and actually have a far lighter overall package than the "old days". When Hells Bay was started, there were no other lightweight production skiffs on the market. We are in a far better situation now with the more efficient 4 strokes that are starting to weigh less than some earlier models. The state of the flats boat is now far superior to anytime in the past. As to how the lightweight hulls will hold up in 5 years, that has been answered many times over. The Hells Bay boats built from 1997-2003 are lightweight and still going strong. Thousands of hours of running on guide boats in all conditions have proved lightweight construction is here to stay. In fact, a heavy boat does not mean a strong boat. Proper naval engineering combined with high quality materials and construction methods are light years better than the old hand lay techniques. Look at the finest quality racing boats and yachts and they all use this type of construction. The Islamorada 18 is far lighter than the original Hells Bay boats and much stronger. This is not a guess, it is by design from a skilled structural engineer. No one that fishes hard in shallow water should settle for anything less than the lightest boat possible unless they are satisfied with a downwind drift. When you need the sun at your back and must pole into an 18 kt wind on a soft bottom to see the fish, every pound counts. 100 lbs lighter won't cut it, we need it 600 lbs lighter. If we purchase a flats boat to do the best possible job of delivering anglers to the fishing areas in comfort and safety and giving us the best possible chance at catching the fish we seek, the lightest boats possible will do that. Everything else is a compromise in the wrong direction.

Hal Chittum


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## sjrobin

George Sawley said:


> With all due respect, your thinking is 180 degrees in the wrong direction. In the "old days" of light weight engines, the boats were beastly tankers. The old flats boats weighed a ton. Literally. There were plenty of 2,000 lb flats boats on the water. Hells Bay came along just at the end of the lightweight 2 stroke engines. What is needed now is to build the lightest, strongest boats possible so we can use smaller horsepower engines and still have acceptable speed and performance. There are new 4 stroke engines that rival the weights of the old 2 strokes. The new Tohatsu 50 4 stroke is a terrific engine and weighs 209 lbs. That is very close to the old 60 Merc 2 stroke at 219 lbs. The 70 Yamaha 4 Stroke is another great choice. When you factor in a 35-40% better fuel burn with the 4 stroke, you can carry less fuel weight and actually have a far lighter overall package than the "old days". When Hells Bay was started, there were no other lightweight production skiffs on the market. We are in a far better situation now with the more efficient 4 strokes that are starting to weigh less than some earlier models. The state of the flats boat is now far superior to anytime in the past. As to how the lightweight hulls will hold up in 5 years, that has been answered many times over. The Hells Bay boats built from 1997-2003 are lightweight and still going strong. Thousands of hours of running on guide boats in all conditions have proved lightweight construction is here to stay. In fact, a heavy boat does not mean a strong boat. Proper naval engineering combined with high quality materials and construction methods are light years better than the old hand lay techniques. Look at the finest quality racing boats and yachts and they all use this type of construction. The Islamorada 18 is far lighter than the original Hells Bay boats and much stronger. This is not a guess, it is by design from a skilled structural engineer. No one that fishes hard in shallow water should settle for anything less than the lightest boat possible unless they are satisfied with a downwind drift. When you need the sun at your back and must pole into an 18 kt wind on a soft bottom to see the fish, every pound counts. 100 lbs lighter won't cut it, we need it 600 lbs lighter. If we purchase a flats boat to do the best possible job of delivering anglers to the fishing areas in comfort and safety and giving us the best possible chance at catching the fish we seek, the lightest boats possible will do that. Everything else is a compromise in the wrong direction.
> 
> Hal Chittum


No problem Hal. I really hope the Islamorada 18 build method and design revolutionizes shallow water sight casting for the foreseeable future. I might even trade my skiff in after it becomes too heavy for me to push around. By old days I meant when I owned an 03 Glades Skiff with a 112 lb Tohat and 06 18 Waterman with 229 lb 70 HP Yama. Some of my favorite lakes we had to pole across five inch flats to get in. Made a lot of sporty open water crossings in both skiffs to get to those lakes. Sounds like the smooth riding Islamorada 18 might be a good fit for crossing big Texas bays, but will it float as shallow as the Waterman or big Whipray with a F70 on the transom? Let me also say that all saltwater fly fishermen owe you guys a big thank you for making poling skiffs that made the sport much more effective and enjoyable.


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## coconutgroves

George Sawley said:


> With all due respect, your thinking is 180 degrees in the wrong direction. In the "old days" of light weight engines, the boats were beastly tankers. The old flats boats weighed a ton. Literally. There were plenty of 2,000 lb flats boats on the water. Hells Bay came along just at the end of the lightweight 2 stroke engines. What is needed now is to build the lightest, strongest boats possible so we can use smaller horsepower engines and still have acceptable speed and performance. There are new 4 stroke engines that rival the weights of the old 2 strokes. The new Tohatsu 50 4 stroke is a terrific engine and weighs 209 lbs. That is very close to the old 60 Merc 2 stroke at 219 lbs. The 70 Yamaha 4 Stroke is another great choice. When you factor in a 35-40% better fuel burn with the 4 stroke, you can carry less fuel weight and actually have a far lighter overall package than the "old days". When Hells Bay was started, there were no other lightweight production skiffs on the market. We are in a far better situation now with the more efficient 4 strokes that are starting to weigh less than some earlier models. The state of the flats boat is now far superior to anytime in the past. As to how the lightweight hulls will hold up in 5 years, that has been answered many times over. The Hells Bay boats built from 1997-2003 are lightweight and still going strong. Thousands of hours of running on guide boats in all conditions have proved lightweight construction is here to stay. In fact, a heavy boat does not mean a strong boat. Proper naval engineering combined with high quality materials and construction methods are light years better than the old hand lay techniques. Look at the finest quality racing boats and yachts and they all use this type of construction. The Islamorada 18 is far lighter than the original Hells Bay boats and much stronger. This is not a guess, it is by design from a skilled structural engineer. No one that fishes hard in shallow water should settle for anything less than the lightest boat possible unless they are satisfied with a downwind drift. When you need the sun at your back and must pole into an 18 kt wind on a soft bottom to see the fish, every pound counts. 100 lbs lighter won't cut it, we need it 600 lbs lighter. If we purchase a flats boat to do the best possible job of delivering anglers to the fishing areas in comfort and safety and giving us the best possible chance at catching the fish we seek, the lightest boats possible will do that. Everything else is a compromise in the wrong direction.
> 
> Hal Chittum


It's shame I can only like this post once. Great insight Hal, this is the type of knowledge we need on these boards and is the reason I joined in the first place.


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## George Sawley

sjrobin said:


> No problem Hal. I really hope the Islamorada 18 build method and design revolutionizes shallow water sight casting for the foreseeable future. I might even trade my skiff in after it becomes too heavy for me to push around. By old days I meant when I owned an 03 Glades Skiff with a 112 lb Tohat and 06 18 Waterman with 229 lb 70 HP Yama. Some of my favorite lakes we had to pole across five inch flats to get in. Made a lot of sporty open water crossings in both skiffs to get to those lakes. Sounds like the smooth riding Islamorada 18 might be a good fit for crossing big Texas bays, but will it float as shallow as the Waterman or big Whipray with a F70 on the transom? Let me also say that all saltwater fly fishermen owe you guys a big thank you for making poling skiffs that made the sport much more effective and enjoyable.


SJRobin, we are on the same page for sure. I think we do need to take into account the generally heavier weights of many of the new 4 Strokes but if we push the limits of technology, we can overcome the problems by reducing boat weights to make up for the slightly lower horsepower and have much stronger boats at the same time. George and I have been all over the world learning who has the materials, technology and most importantly, the knowledge to use all of these. It has been a long journey to separate facts from fiction. There is an astounding amount of smoke and mirrors out there with companies using the buzz words like carbon, Kevlar, infusion etc. It is not a simple task to learn how to use many of the valuable materials and technologies that are available but far too many are trying to market the exciting words without the proper usage to back them up.

When we started Hells Bay, one of the first things we discovered was that virtually every flats boat company was advertising their boat weights numbers far below the actual weights. We suspected that most of them had really never weighed their boats because they were normally about double their advertised weights. Because they were all doing this, no one called out the other companies and the status quo rolled along for a long time. Hells Bay called them out, took our boats to the shows in a small pool with our boat floating and a scale with lift. That started an important change in this industry.

After we sold Hells Bay, the new ownership did about everything possible to ruin everything we had worked so hard to build. We have noticed a slow drift back to the old ways of doing things. Boats are getting heavier and the boat weights being advertised are again not accurate. At Chittum Skiffs, we are going the other direction. We have spent a lot of time and an a lot of money to design these boats and to learn the best way to build them to be very light and very tough. They are by a wide margin, the strongest and lightest boats we have ever built. We have also seen some companies copying our designs that we spent years and large amounts of money to develop. We will not let that happen.

Hal Chittum


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## jsnipes

Good stuff in this thread! I am pretty excited to take a ride on George's boat in two weeks. 

Have a lot of hours on different flavors of Mirage / HPX models so pretty curious to see comparison. Think the only other boat that would potentially make sense for me would be the Biscayne (or maybe Marquesa but don't think I want that big a boat).


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## George Sawley

As to your questions on the performance of our new boats compared to your Waterman 18, here are our thoughts. The Waterman 18 and the 17.8 Professional were the same hull with different decks and the Waterman had 1 1/4" core in the bottom and no cockpit or stringers. The bottom core was thicker than the 1" core in the Professional to make up for the lack of a cockpit and stringers and it was a little lighter than the 17.8. These boats were the state of the art at the time they were built but with new materials and technology, we can now save approximately 40% of the weight in the same size boat and be much stronger. The new Islamorada 18 is a little longer than the Waterman 18 and almost exactly the same width. It has more displacement, which is floatation, because the Waterman had the recessed slot for the engine. This is a design that we should not have done because it does not help with the ability of a boat to trim well, it is noisier when poling or at anchor and it does not allow the boat to spin or turn well with a push pole. In our defense, we were putting a lot of these skiffs on the bow of sportfishing boats and because the motor was set back into the slot between the sponsons, the boat took up less space on the bow which allowed it to be on a boat that might have not had enough deck space if the transom was at the back like the Islamorada 18. The new 2 degree Islamorada 18 weighs about 40% less than the Waterman and has more displacement. We have tweaked the bottom until it has all of the handling issues exactly where we wanted. The boat will have much better trim capability, bow up, bow down, port and stbd up and down and it does not ever slide in a turn. This will allow the boat to run a little faster than the Waterman 18 with a slightly smaller engine. The draft will also de noticeably less. The ride will be radically drier because of the spray rails and the quality of the ride will be a little better. When we were developing this boat, we constantly looked at all of the measurable items a boat needed to do and we needed to improve all of those from previous boats. If we found something that was not an improvement over existing boats, we stopped and figured out a way to fix that. It is a long and sometimes frustrating process but our rule was and is to continue the testing and changing until it is right.

My advice to someone looking for a new skiff is to make sure the due diligence is properly done. Do not believe the stats on websites and watch out for used car salesmen that don't have thousands of days on the water with a push pole in their hands. There are very subtle things that a shallow water boat must have and they are important to know and understand. These fish are not getting easier!

Hal Chittum


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## fishingdave

George Sawley said:


> Lets talk about boat builders.... do you want to buy a boat from a guy that is a hobbyist or are real fisherman that wants a better boat for fishing that has a true passion and ability for it.
> 
> 
> Apte: Hal Chittum was my guide when I broke the record twice in one day on six-pound- class. The record on fly: 82½ pounds. And on bait-casting or spinning tackle six-pound-class with an artificial. That was 107½ pounds. You know that 82½-pounder is the longest still standing tarpon record. Did you know that?
> 
> http://midcurrent.com/books/stu-apte-a-passion-for-tarpon/


Thanks for posting. Great story to read. I do wonder what kind of boat was used to catch all these great fish? Was it hi-tech kevlar, lightweight carbon fiber, big sprayrails, or just a plain old boat.


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## sjrobin

George Sawley said:


> SJRobin, we are on the same page for sure. I think we do need to take into account the generally heavier weights of many of the new 4 Strokes but if we push the limits of technology, we can overcome the problems by reducing boat weights to make up for the slightly lower horsepower and have much stronger boats at the same time. George and I have been all over the world learning who has the materials, technology and most importantly, the knowledge to use all of these. It has been a long journey to separate facts from fiction. There is an astounding amount of smoke and mirrors out there with companies using the buzz words like carbon, Kevlar, infusion etc. It is not a simple task to learn how to use many of the valuable materials and technologies that are available but far too many are trying to market the exciting words without the proper usage to back them up.
> 
> When we started Hells Bay, one of the first things we discovered was that virtually every flats boat company was advertising their boat weights numbers far below the actual weights. We suspected that most of them had really never weighed their boats because they were normally about double their advertised weights. Because they were all doing this, no one called out the other companies and the status quo rolled along for a long time. Hells Bay called them out, took our boats to the shows in a small pool with our boat floating and a scale with lift. That started an important change in this industry.
> 
> After we sold Hells Bay, the new ownership did about everything possible to ruin everything we had worked so hard to build. We have noticed a slow drift back to the old ways of doing things. Boats are getting heavier and the boat weights being advertised are again not accurate. At Chittum Skiffs, we are going the other direction. We have spent a lot of time and an a lot of money to design these boats and to learn the best way to build them to be very light and very tough. They are by a wide margin, the strongest and lightest boats we have ever built. We have also seen some companies copying our designs that we spent years and large amounts of money to develop. We will not let that happen.
> 
> Hal Chittum


Thank you Hal. Great explanation for all the microskiff members to read. We all fundamentally want the best all around skiff for our chosen fly fishing sport, especially when it helps make a very challenging sport a little easier.


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## sjrobin

sjrobin said:


> Thank you Hal. Great explanation for all the microskiff members to read. We all fundamentally want the best all around skiff for our chosen fly fishing sport, especially when it helps make a very challenging sport a little easier.


One more difference in the skiffs. When poling directly into a strong breeze the Glades Skiff and Waterman 18 are more difficult to keep on line even though they are both much lighter than my Pro. More difficult to start the move but less work to stay on track. I can relax a little with the Pro.


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## MariettaMike

After over 6 months, 120 posts, and over 10,000 views I can't say I really have an answer to my question regarding *which skiff might be a better value?* That's my fault for basing my comparison between a $62k+ cutting edge material hand built skiff and a $52k+ old school material production skiff, and then assuming a $46k version of the $62k skiff that has yet to be produced was easy.

However I did confirm that HB owners will defend their "brand" better than a Packers fan after losing to Detroit....and Chittum isn't shy to say they're building a better skiff than HB....and while we wait to see the new Chittum go into production EC is delivering new EVO's every month. I'm not adding the EVO to my comparison, just saying EC is "walking the walk".


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## westsidefly

I was thinking the same thing. This has been one of the most informative/entertaining threads I've read in a while.


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## sjrobin

westsidefly said:


> I was thinking the same thing. This has been one of the most informative/entertaining threads I've read in a while.


Thank you. Hope you enjoyed it. If anyone would like to see HD videos of the 03 Glades Skiff, Gordon Waterman 18, and HB pro in action in very rough seas send me your email address and I will invite you to my icloud or google drive. You can almost feel the salt spray in your face and the hulls flex in one of the videos.


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## Limp Shrimp

However I did confirm that HB owners will defend their "brand" better than a Packers fan after losing to Detroit....and Chittum isn't shy to say they're building a better skiff than HB....and while we wait to see the new Chittum go into production EC is delivering new EVO's every month. I'm not adding the EVO to my comparison said:


> I'm offended you even put ECC in the same conversation with Mr. Chittums' first boat design and his current one... Don't get me wrong, I like the new EVO it's a great looking boat, but It's annoying to watch the owner make videos about his new knife cut spray rails that everyone is copying from him, that look exactly like the ones that have been on the Islamorada 18 for years..


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## Fish_specialist

MariettaMike said:


> After over 6 months, 120 posts, and over 10,000 views I can't say I really have an answer to my question regarding *which skiff might be a better value?* That's my fault for basing my comparison between a $62k+ cutting edge material hand built skiff and a $52k+ old school material production skiff, and then assuming a $46k version of the $62k skiff that has yet to be produced was easy.
> 
> However I did confirm that HB owners will defend their "brand" better than a Packers fan after losing to Detroit....and Chittum isn't shy to say they're building a better skiff than HB....and while we wait to see the new Chittum go into production EC is delivering new EVO's every month. I'm not adding the EVO to my comparison, just saying EC is "walking the walk".


Actually I think you've made a good comparison there- the reality is that the Islamorada 18, the ECC Evo and the new skiff from Tom Gordon the "Element" are all very similar in dims- in my eyes, they have more in common with each other than they have with the Marquesa. While all the skiffs have a similar 18x80" LOA/BEAM the reality is that the waterline beams are nowhere near the Marquesa. They are all nearly identical to the Professional...
Less drag will inevitably equate to greater ease of poling and less horsepower requirements. Lighter overall skiff means less draft. However, stability will suffer. This is evident in a video on YouTube in which the islamorada 18 is being poled. The boat is more "active" as George puts it. I can stand up in a canoe, so this doesn't bother me. But, last year I had people on my copperhead that were not comfortable on the boat. 

I know I'm not pointing out anything you all don't know... But this has been a fun thread and I felt I should add to it


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## MariettaMike

Years from the now the origin of integrated spray rails on a skiff will be just as forgotten as the original designer of the Tarpon Toad. (Gary Merriman)

http://midcurrent.com/flies/tying-the-tarpon-toad/


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## Limp Shrimp

Mike, being that you are a Dolphin SS owner, why does the 17 SS Pro not merit a comparison to the boats you have listed?


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## LOUMan

Limp Shrimp said:


> Mike, being that you are a Dolphin SS owner, why does the 17 SS Pro not merit a comparison to the boats you have listed?


I have a Super Skiff 16' and they are AWESOME. Legendary hull that eats the chop and floats relatively skinny. Sadly Dolphin is not as prestigious as they used to be. Maybe its the owners not sure. I would love for them to start incorporating some newer technology in their boats. The 17 SS is another great boat that will compete and out duel many. Again I feel the company has just fallen behind with the times. For example I recently re-did my entire skiff and I bought a fuel tank from them they told me it was 33 gallons. I wanted 30 but they told me the 33 was awesome blah blah blah. I bought it guess what the tank is 23 gallons on a good day. It was stamped 33. Your a boat builder, you have custom tanks specifically built for your boat, how the hell do you not know the real capacity. Little things like that, not so great customer service had made Dolphin a forgotten gem. I would not but a boat from the new regime over there. just my 2 cents..


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## coconutgroves

Limp Shrimp said:


> I'm offended you even put ECC in the same conversation with Mr. Chittums' first boat design and his current one... Don't get me wrong, I like the new EVO it's a great looking boat, but It's annoying to watch the owner make videos about his new knife cut spray rails that everyone is copying from him, that look exactly like the ones that have been on the Islamorada 18 for years..


Earlier post said ECC walks the walk, but yeah, they sure do talk the talk a lot too.


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## Net 30

Wondering if Hal or George can comment on how the lamination schedule is going to differ between the Legacy model and the new lower priced 2 degree model?


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## MariettaMike

Limp Shrimp said:


> Mike, being that you are a Dolphin SS owner, why does the 17 SS Pro not merit a comparison to the boats you have listed?


My OP states I had recently fished from both these 18' skiffs with veteran guides. So considering I've never fished from a 17SS, never seen a 17SS, and have never heard of anyone that owns a 17SS its not in here.

IMO Dolphin should have sold their molds to EC when they had the chance. Jus say'n.


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## George Sawley

Net 30 said:


> Wondering if Hal or George can comment on how the lamination schedule is going to differ between the Legacy model and the new lower priced 2 degree model?


The new model will have the same laminate in the running surface, we could go lighter on the running surface and still have structural strength but for impact purposes we are not changing. The bottom will be E-glass, Kevlar and structural carbon. The transom will have less carbon fiber and lower density core then the Legacy since it will be rated for less horse power. 

We can add the core and laminates if someone desires them for extra HP motors.


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## Net 30

George Sawley said:


> The new model will have the same laminate in the running surface, we could go lighter on the running surface and still have structural strength but for impact purposes we are not changing. The bottom will be E-glass, Kevlar and structural carbon. The transom will have less carbon fiber and lower density core then the Legacy since it will be rated for less horse power.
> 
> We can add the core and laminates if someone desires them for extra HP motors.


Thanks.


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## grovesnatcher

George
This was the info that came from 02-03 HB waterman, mines a non liner. So was this not correct when you guys put this out? Is the new 2 degree SS 40% lighter and drafts less? If so your new boats are going to be amazing. 
*Waterman*
Standard Features and Equipment Weight: 415 pounds Draft: 3 1/2"fully rigged w/engine & fuel Length: 18' Beam: 73" Mfr. Recommended Power: 40 - 60hp Vinylester resin Kevlar ™/E-Glass Hull and Components Core Cell™ construction - No Wood Heavy Duty Rub Rail Lg. 7' forward casting platform with dry locker Moonlight™ hatch holder on forward hatch 20 gallon aluminum gas tank (built in) Rod rack with fly rod tubes for 8 rods Poling platform 2 dry aft lockers Quiet & dry rubber gasketed hatches Dry gutters on all hatches Easy clean non-skid deck Lenco™ electric trim tabs AGM Battery Running lights/stainless steel shark eyes Insulated baitwell - ready for plumbing Push pole holders Heavy duty transom motor mounting plate Rigging and wiring to ABYC standards


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## Chris Morejohn

Hey everyone. It's Chris Morejohn here. I forgot my password and reset it and ended up with Turbot as my name.
This has been a great information thread. I will hopefully add to it, give some current and past information and maybe also give some food for thought.
First off I agree wholeheartedly with what George Shawley and Hal Chittium are building. If not for their dedication and drive all of us would not have their designs to compare to others and we would not be able to benefit from what they have learned in their ongoing process of tweaking. I have built with my own two hands many boats. The strongest boat I have built for what it weighed was my last build which was an ocean racing trimaran built in epoxy that when finished I had to cure the boat in an oven up to 120 degrees for 4 hours to reach its maximum hardness and strength. This sailboat 33'x 25' weighed 3500 lbs fully rigged with motor and all bunk cushions,stoves etc. After going through a gale in it on its delivery without a single problem I'am sold on the fact that for ultimate strength epoxy is the way to go if engineered right.
BUT this boat cost a small fortune to build. 
What Hal Chittum is striving for is to build the best he can.
What Hal and George have to also do is keep selling boats as all of the players in this market. So if your skiff performs real well then you can compare it against the others. What makes their skiff unique is that it is. It's very different than all the others that were smart guys that have gotten a ride on the HBs skirts.
If you have had lots of time in the industry with the building and fishing skills to back it up so much the better.
I have never had any problem with people comparing skiffs that I have been part of in their design and construction. But I have called out people who were telling others my boats were built like crap.
So I will side with what Hal and George have said about their new boat verses the old Whipray and its sisters. I have only been with Hal in his skiff once so I have no idea what's up with his skiffs. But I talk to tons of skiff owners online and as I sail about the Caribbean. I would very much hope that their new skiffs are an improvement on my 20 year old designs.

Now I will step into my shoes as a designer and builder and tell about the skiffs I built that you are talking about.
John Kipps first Whipray was built by me and a couple other helpers using vynelester resin out of buckets. The core was Dyvinycell hand laid in his hull. The materials were matt, Kevlar cloth and eglass cloth. This was very basic boatbuilding.
These hulls will last forever if not really abused.
I am very flattered to have George using these skiffs as the bench mark to compare against the new kid on the flats.
What is being asked today that anyone who has a HB skiff of that time frame if they would trade their skiff in for its original selling price as a down payment and then come up with the additional $30,000.00. I know what John Kipp paid for his Whiprays.

I've said this before, these boats sell for these prices because the market will bear it.

I think that anyone that can't afford a $50,000.00 485lb skiff should not be lusting after one. There are other skiffs out there.
Build your own for less than $20,000.00 
Or go for a ride and buy a great well built skiff.

Now onto about Bashing HBBW and other company's.
The thing I want all of you to realize is that HB is not building their skiffs today the way I did when I ran the shop.
I could write a blog about all of what I just see in HBs videos and other company's photos online. I'am not happy with what I see.
As a guy that has spent a lifetime in the building and repair of boats I get to see what goes wrong years down the road. What's going on today is just lazy building.
They are built very heavy today so will have a totally different feel and performance.
Other skiff builders are doing the same thing. Basic skiffs all round but they are not like the 1997-2000 HB skiffs in weight and build.
The Chittum skiff is in its own class today.
So what I have tried to say here is that it's pretty silly to compare all these skiffs that are from 20 years old to today's skiffs. Just find a builder you like, a hull that does what you want and need and buy it.
When comparing a new skiffs performance against a 19 year old skiff and achieving a 10-14% upgrade in performance and draft against it that's a good start. To build it with modern materials to get this weight gain-loss and strength is the way to go if money is not the issue.
I roll my eyes every time I hear someone say they used a trained Navel architect and engineer to help design their skiff. In my experience it's better to have someone who has rebuilt a bunch of skiffs and boats that really know the strengths and weaknesses of materials than a guy in an office that can crunch numbers from the manufacturers.

I won't ever be building skiffs again. If I wanted to get into the market again today I would be building the simplest skiffs in basic vynelester and core to sell to the mid range buyer.
It would be very boring.
What Hal is doing would be more fun, to push the limits and cater to the crowd that wants to be part of that.

Tom Gordons "element" will be out there soon.
I sent Tom a set of hull lines a year ago for him to use any way he wanted.
From the looks of it he did not use much of my design.
I have nothing more than this involment in his company period.
I like the fact that his new skiff will be another new design out there. Knowing Tom it will be a well built boat.

I have this past year been redesigning all my past designs to bring them up to today's knowledge. I am in the process of writing a How To book on flats skiff boatbuilding for the amertur and professional alike. This book will have all these new designs in them along with a step by step process on how to design and build any skiff in your garage to world class status using all building methods from strip plank cedar through infusioning in epoxy. I will hope to pass on all what I have learned, all the tricks of the trade in how to get a skiff built quickly and for a reasonable cost weather it be in plywood or in all carbon and epoxy.
From this I hope that you all can use this as a guide to how your skiffs are being built or to be able to build your own.
I rarely get good WYFY for me to post on this site. I will be back home in the Bahamas this May to finish my book and some art stuff for next year.
If you all have any questions you can ask here, but I cananswer quicker via email as I can answer on the boat and post later. I have to be online to write here. 
Thanks Chris Morejohn [email protected]


----------



## Net 30

Turbot said:


> Hey everyone. It's Chris Morejohn here. I forgot my password and reset it and ended up with Turbot as my name.
> This has been a great information thread. I will hopefully add to it, give some current and past information and maybe also give some food for thought.
> 
> If you all have any questions you can ask here, but I cananswer quicker via email as I can answer on the boat and post later. I have to be online to write here.
> Thanks Chris Morejohn [email protected]


Great post Chris. Too bad Gordon didn't follow more of what you created in your original design when he built his new skiff. After looking at the pics he posted, there sure are a few _"unique"_ features in what he created. The design turned me off from wanting to look at this as a possible replacement for what I have now.

Great idea writing a book on how to build a one-of-a-kind skiff….it should be a good read!

Hope you and your family have a great Thanksgiving.

_ps: the moderators can get your original screen name back if you request._


----------



## Chris Morejohn

Net 30 said:


> Great post Chris. Too bad Gordon didn't follow more of what you created in your original design when he built his new skiff. After looking at the pics he posted, there sure are a few _"unique"_ features in what he created. The design turned me off from wanting to look at this as a possible replacement for what I have now.
> 
> Great idea writing a book on how to build a one-of-a-kind skiff….it should be a good read!
> 
> Hope you and your family have a great Thanksgiving.
> 
> _ps: the moderators can get your original screen name back if you request._


Net 30 please get my name back. I like to be up front when talking. I just have been very busy lately and I think when this site upgraded my name might have had to be reinstated.
As for the Element it will have to be seen how Toms boat comes out. It's still in the trail stages so a lot can change. 
To me it would be great to have as many new designs out there as possible to test ride. In sailing it's so much fun to race against others to seek what really works. I'am in Antigus now and am racing on an all Carbon nomex epoxy sloop. We have to race with a very high handicap against all the others. We win or lose by seconds over 12-15 mile races.
In the flats skiff world it would be so much fun to start a skiff Olympics where all skiffs are really weighed, all anglers are weighed and then the boats have to go through a series of trials- tests , like speed, getting up on plane,draft, spinning time, noise etc all the way down the road doing this over a trial course.
This would Open a lot of eyes.
As I say in my sailing blogs " people sail boats places, boats don't sail people places" in other words all skiffs in the right hands will get the job done, but by being in the right skiff it will be so much better.
By having the best skiff ever will not make you the best fisherman.


----------



## MariettaMike

Thanks for posting Chris. Lots of great info and advice in there.


----------



## MSG

sjrobin said:


> One more difference in the skiffs. When poling directly into a strong breeze the Glades Skiff and Waterman 18 are more difficult to keep on line even though they are both much lighter than my Pro. More difficult to start the move but less work to stay on track. I can relax a little with the Pro.


A good point - the ability to track seems to be underrated by a lot of people - I would rather it require a bit more effort to get started than the constant battle of correcting course.


----------



## sjrobin

MSG said:


> A good point - the ability to track seems to be underrated by a lot of people - I would rather it require a bit more effort to get started than the constant battle of correcting course.





MSG said:


> A good point - the ability to track seems to be underrated by a lot of people - I would rather it require a bit more effort to get started than the constant battle of correcting course.


Yes anyone that has spent a lot of time poling can appreciate a skiff that stays on track without constant correction. The waterman is actually difficult to pole in a straight line, but you get used to it. The new super light Chittum may be even more difficult to control in wind unless the bow holds the water or you have a big person up front.


----------



## iMacattack

Chris, we'll get your name back. What do you want it to be?

I've been around, on and have tested many, many skiffs. Most of my musings are published. Some never will be. Boat building is a sordid occupation. 

Here is how I see the current state of skiffs. 

(*Warning*: grumpy man post look away if you are easily offended)

Still reading? Ok, you've been warned.

It's been 25 plus years since a true revolution. Everything since is an evolution. Some positive some a negative.

Some builders have made a lot of noise but have contributed very little. They hide behind slick websites or social media machines, paid sudo celiberities or self inflating you tube videos and everything they do is the next greatest thing. However IMHO every product is a rehash or redo of an already old idea. Not impressed.

Some have stayed quiet, focused on their core product and have made a huge impact. They may not have the fanciest websites or slick videos. What they have is a vision. Maybe it's building a well made skiff that the average person can afford. Or taking the process of building boats to another level with technology. They don't have to be loud, their product speaks volumes.

However where things go wrong is not the boat or the builder but why it was purchased. Too many times people buy the wrong skiff (myself included). These end up for sale after less than a year. There is nothing wrong with the skiff. The person buying the skiff got caught up in an idea or image that didn't fit with their needs.

When buying a skiff stay true to yourself. Don't buy brand X because some keyboard cowboy say it's the greatest thing. Buy it because it will go, do and be what you need. Who cares if it doesn't have the latest widget some other boat brand is trying to convince you that you have to have. That's not going to be important when you dump the boat a year later because it was never right in the first place.

The next problem (no disrespect meant to the OP) are these boat A vs. boat B threads on the Internet. What do we really learn? Not much useful. May de-evolve into schoolyard name calling. Thankfully folks like Chris and others have added incredible value with their clear headed posts.

Just a side obversation, those who have the least to gain have the most insightful stuff to say. Thank you!

Personally I think many people have no clue what they are talking about. Builders typically avoid these topics (and rightly so). Why? See above.

In some respects this is both a great time and a terrible time for boat building.

Great because we as consumers have so many options. Skiffs are being built for fit multiple budgets and needs.

Terrible because few builders are bold enough to innovate for themselves. They are too caught up in trying to be the next Brand X.

We as consumers are part of the problem. We should not ask how does brand X compare to another brand. We should as how has brand X fit my needs! Am I buying a tool or a status symbol?

As consumers we have a responsibility. Don't ask what sets brand X apart while still expecting them to look, feel, act and respond like their competitor. Doing so will limit choice as everyone will just copy each other. 

Cheers,
Capt. Jan (grumpy alderman)


----------



## pt448

iMacattack said:


> Chris, we'll get your name back. What do you want it to be?
> 
> I've been around, on and have tested many, many skiffs. Most of my musings are published. Some never will be. Boat building is a sordid occupation.
> 
> Here is how I see the current state of skiffs.
> 
> (*Warning*: grumpy man post look away if you are easily offended)
> 
> Still reading? Ok, you've been warned.
> 
> It's been 25 plus years since a true revolution. Everything since is an evolution. Some positive some a negative.
> 
> Some builders have made a lot of noise but have contributed very little. They hide behind slick websites or social media machines, paid sudo celiberities or self inflating you tube videos and everything they do is the next greatest thing. However IMHO every product is a rehash or redo of an already old idea. Not impressed.
> 
> Some have stayed quiet, focused on their core product and have made a huge impact. They may not have the fanciest websites or slick videos. What they have is a vision. Maybe it's building a well made skiff that the average person can afford. Or taking the process of building boats to another level with technology. They don't have to be loud, their product speaks volumes.
> 
> However where things go wrong is not the boat or the builder but why it was purchased. Too many times people buy the wrong skiff (myself included). These end up for sale after less than a year. There is nothing wrong with the skiff. The person buying the skiff got caught up in an idea or image that didn't fit with their needs.
> 
> When buying a skiff stay true to yourself. Don't buy brand X because some keyboard cowboy say it's the greatest thing. Buy it because it will go, do and be what you need. Who cares if it doesn't have the latest widget some other boat brand is trying to convince you that you have to have. That's not going to be important when you dump the boat a year later because it was never right in the first place.
> 
> The next problem (no disrespect meant to the OP) are these boat A vs. boat B threads on the Internet. What do we really learn? Not much useful. May de-evolve into schoolyard name calling. Thankfully folks like Chris and others have added incredible value with their clear headed posts.
> 
> Just a side obversation, those who have the least to gain have the most insightful stuff to say. Thank you!
> 
> Personally I think many people have no clue what they are talking about. Builders typically avoid these topics (and rightly so). Why? See above.
> 
> In some respects this is both a great time and a terrible time for boat building.
> 
> Great because we as consumers have so many options. Skiffs are being built for fit multiple budgets and needs.
> 
> Terrible because few builders are bold enough to innovate for themselves. They are too caught up in trying to be the next Brand X.
> 
> We as consumers are part of the problem. We should not ask how does brand X compare to another brand. We should as how has brand X fit my needs! Am I buying a tool or a status symbol?
> 
> As consumers we have a responsibility. Don't ask what sets brand X apart while still expecting them to look, feel, act and respond like their competitor. Doing so will limit choice as everyone will just copy each other.
> 
> Cheers,
> Capt. Jan (grumpy alderman)


Don't be so hard on yourself, Capt. Jan. That wasn't nearly as grumpy as I expected. Of course I've been on TigerDroppings a lot lately following the LSU coaching drama/bs so my gauge of "grumpy" is quite skewed at the moment.

Thanks for the good info.


----------



## MariettaMike

iMacattack said:


> The next problem (no disrespect meant to the OP) are these boat A vs. boat B threads on the Internet. What do we really learn? Not much useful. May de-evolve into schoolyard name calling. Thankfully folks like Chris and others have added incredible value with their clear headed posts.
> 
> We as consumers are part of the problem. We should not ask how does brand X compare to another brand. We should as how has brand X fit my needs! Am I buying a tool or a status symbol?
> 
> As consumers we have a responsibility. Don't ask what sets brand X apart while still expecting them to look, feel, act and respond like their competitor. Doing so will limit choice as everyone will just copy each other.
> 
> Cheers,
> Capt. Jan (grumpy alderman)


None taken Capt., but even Chris shared his idea of a "Skiff Olympics" so consumers can get "real world" data for making informed decisions.


----------



## sjrobin

MariettaMike said:


> None taken Capt., but even Chris shared his idea of a "Skiff Olympics" so consumers can get "real world" data for making informed decisions.


Skiff comparisons are good for us and are useful for making decisions. Especially if people are willing to share video of the skiffs in action and any problems that arise over time. Even one day sea trials of various skiffs do not really tell you everything that may be important to you, the operator, over the long term. Kind of like a great first date.


----------



## mtoddsolomon

The only thing I can contribute to this conversation is that, doing compairisons like this have really helped me discover and rediscover boats for every situation. You're going to get the cheerleaders and the typical "do yourself a favor and....." Comments but you also get a lot of good insight that have really helped guide me and others like me to the boat or boats that better suit my needs. When you have a lot of dialect it really does make you question if you really need something or if you just want something that you'll never get value out of.


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## MariettaMike

Just reposting jsnipes post from the flybridge 55 thread: 
_
"I really liked the 2 degree skiff. Performed surprisingly well in a ~2ft chop. It's essentially a flat bottom boat, and it was rough, so you're going to feel it, but getting the nose down it actually ran better at 30mph+ than it did at 24ish in those conditions. I think that 50hp Tohatsu pairs really nicely, boat is really well balanced and IMO more than fast enough. Good hole shot, ran 36-37 top end (not sure what kind of prop he has on it).

And those spray rails work like you think they will. Of course, in a turn or going broadside, you are still going to take some spray since it is a flats boat, but was really impressed with how dry it was given the conditions.

Boat was also a lot more stable than I had anticipated. Poled it around, and had George move around the deck quickly and side to side etc, and I didn't feel much movement from up there. I am not a big guy, probably weigh ~175, but it was totally fine to walk around the boat on the gunwales etc. Definitely wouldn't be a concern of mine (it's probably more stable than the Mirage II my family has).

I still want to ride the 12 degree and the decision between 2 and 12 would probably be based on how long I think I will be in TX vs moving back to FL, but definitely encouraging."_


----------



## Chris Morejohn

Capt. Jan, others
Well said all.
When I first started drawing out skiff interiors and figuring out- engineering hull structures to work in this market my goal was to build boats. Making money came second. Yes I had to live and pay my bills. I wanted to get ahead. But what I really wanted to do in my early twentys was to be building the best skiffs around.
It was not anything like it is today. Very few customers to find me in Tavernier selling bare custom made skiff hulls for $12,500.00 in 1984. I sold boats and had a years waiting list all because I was building what no one else was at the time and I was known to be very honest. What that meant in those days was I stuck to my price and delivered on time.
My past customers were my salesman. 
When Hells Bay came around I had to be a sales man to help pay the huge bills that came with lots of employees and overhead. This interfered lots in my life at the time but it was a nessasarry part of the business. Once we got a person in the boat it was a sale Because the boat performed like no other at the time. It was a huge challange to keep selling boats though as we had to get people to see the boat and then experience it. Hopefully they then could afford one.
I get a fair amount of emails asking advice about skiffs from my blog site even after they have read my blog posts.
I tell everyone pretty much the same thing. Really look at what your needs really are now and into the future. Don't buy new if you can't afford it. Always look for used skiffs first. If on a budget put your buying price aside and be ready to pounce when something comes up. Don't buy ever because it's touted to be the best. Do your homework and really go for real test test rides. 
That is go for a test ride with you and a really big clumsy friend to act as a dead weight customer to see how that skiff really performs. Bring weight with you. Do it on a really lousy day.
Go over the shop and keep asking why they claim to have reinvented the wheel when they have only been building skiffs for such a short time. I could make a list. It's your money.
In today's market and build knowledge you have many more options out there for you. Just make up your list a get the guys to explain to you what they have come up with.

If I could have my name as Chris Morejohn again that would be great.


----------



## Blue Zone

Turbot said:


> Capt. Jan, others
> Well said all.
> When I first started drawing out skiff interiors and figuring out- engineering hull structures to work in this market my goal was to build boats. Making money came second. Yes I had to live and pay my bills. I wanted to get ahead. But what I really wanted to do in my early twentys was to be building the best skiffs around.
> It was not anything like it is today. Very few customers to find me in Tavernier selling bare custom made skiff hulls for $12,500.00 in 1984. I sold boats and had a years waiting list all because I was building what no one else was at the time and I was known to be very honest. What that meant in those days was I stuck to my price and delivered on time.
> My past customers were my salesman.
> When Hells Bay came around I had to be a sales man to help pay the huge bills that came with lots of employees and overhead. This interfered lots in my life at the time but it was a nessasarry part of the business. Once we got a person in the boat it was a sale Because the boat performed like no other at the time. It was a huge challange to keep selling boats though as we had to get people to see the boat and then experience it. Hopefully they then could afford one.
> I get a fair amount of emails asking advice about skiffs from my blog site even after they have read my blog posts.
> I tell everyone pretty much the same thing. Really look at what your needs really are now and into the future. Don't buy new if you can't afford it. Always look for used skiffs first. If on a budget put your buying price aside and be ready to pounce when something comes up. Don't buy ever because it's touted to be the best. Do your homework and really go for real test test rides.
> That is go for a test ride with you and a really big clumsy friend to act as a dead weight customer to see how that skiff really performs. Bring weight with you. Do it on a really lousy day.
> Go over the shop and keep asking why they claim to have reinvented the wheel when they have only been building skiffs for such a short time. I could make a list. It's your money.
> In today's market and build knowledge you have many more options out there for you. Just make up your list a get the guys to explain to you what they have come up with.
> 
> If I could have my name as Chris Morejohn again that would be great.



Chris,

Nicely put and congratulations on your involvement in the new Chittum project, which I am sure, will be a huge success.

I recently bought a 1956 Challenger and I don’t know the chronology as to when the modifications were done to the hull, though I would think the mods were done in the 70’s and 80’s. Although the rehab on the boat is far from finished, I continue to marvel at the things these guys did back in the day:

· Fore and aft separate teak rails; the forward set to reduce spray and the aft set to presumably provide better lift and to reduce side-slip.

· Toe rails.

· Self-bailing with drainage running through tubes in the dry rear compartment.

· Rod tubes running into the foredeck.

· Hatches that actually drain properly without gaskets. (I know this from dragging the boat across the state @ 70mph during a monsoon).

· Transom-mounted poling platform, which doesn’t clutter the rear deck.

· No cleats or anything else which could cause snags.

· Side-mounted console. You can actually run the boat sitting down.

· An “analog” sea chest/livewell with a lead (God forbid) hatch cover to keep it from flying up at speed. Though tiny it precluded the need for an aerator/pump by taking in and expelling raw water.

Many of these “small” things have been either incorporated into or adapted further into today’s skiffs. I suppose the only real innovations going forward will be in design, materials and perhaps power options.

On the other hand, it would be good to have a look at look at the demographics of the golf and skiing “industries” which are not dissimilar to your particular market segment. Both are hurting as the monied population is aging. In a way this may pertain to skiffs as there are some of us older fellas who are more interested in form over function. Aside from the odd push here and there, the only time you’ll catch me on a poling platform is to either cast or to have a nice place to sit and enjoy lunch. 

Best of luck.


----------



## anytide

"If I could have my name as Chris Morejohn again that would be great."


----------



## yobata

x2 it felt very pious!!


----------



## Chris Morejohn

Blue zone.
You might have read the recent artical by Ted Lund about Hal Chittum and his latest project the big light weight Sport Fish. 
I have nothing to do with this at all. I live on my sailboat which is currently anchored in Antigua in the leeward islands.i talk on these threads to hopefully give a bit of insite to what I have been part of.
Hal Chittum and I talk via emails about ideas and boat stuff from time to time.
I still design boats all the time but most of my requests are from Sailboaters that like my shallow draft sailboats.
I have tried to show in my blog posts that everything I have learned is from past ideas.
The future will be like you have said all in very small upgrades and refinements. 
This I like very much. 
I will post online soon the hull lines I sent to Tom Gordon for all to see so everyone can compare the two hulls difference. This will show how things change when many different designers get in on the project. 
On another note, down here in the islands there are literally millions of tarpon about that have never been fished. Lots of fun fly casting to as they are very aggressive.
Have a good day,


Blue Zone said:


> Chris,
> 
> Nicely put and congratulations on your involvement in the new Chittum project, which I am sure, will be a huge success.
> 
> I recently bought a 1956 Challenger and I don’t know the chronology as to when the modifications were done to the hull, though I would think the mods were done in the 70’s and 80’s. Although the rehab on the boat is far from finished, I continue to marvel at the things these guys did back in the day:
> 
> · Fore and aft separate teak rails; the forward set to reduce spray and the aft set to presumably provide better lift and to reduce side-slip.
> 
> · Toe rails.
> 
> · Self-bailing with drainage running through tubes in the dry rear compartment.
> 
> · Rod tubes running into the foredeck.
> 
> · Hatches that actually drain properly without gaskets. (I know this from dragging the boat across the state @ 70mph during a monsoon).
> 
> · Transom-mounted poling platform, which doesn’t clutter the rear deck.
> 
> · No cleats or anything else which could cause snags.
> 
> · Side-mounted console. You can actually run the boat sitting down.
> 
> · An “analog” sea chest/livewell with a lead (God forbid) hatch cover to keep it from flying up at speed. Though tiny it precluded the need for an aerator/pump by taking in and expelling raw water.
> 
> Many of these “small” things have been either incorporated into or adapted further into today’s skiffs. I suppose the only real innovations going forward will be in design, materials and perhaps power options.
> 
> On the other hand, it would be good to have a look at look at the demographics of the golf and skiing “industries” which are not dissimilar to your particular market segment. Both are hurting as the monied population is aging. In a way this may pertain to skiffs as there are some of us older fellas who are more interested in form over function. Aside from the odd push here and there, the only time you’ll catch me on a poling platform is to either cast or to have a nice place to sit and enjoy lunch.
> 
> Best of luck.


----------



## sjrobin

Chris Morejohn said:


> Blue zone.
> You might have read the recent artical by Ted Lund about Hal Chittum and his latest project the big light weight Sport Fish.
> I have nothing to do with this at all. I live on my sailboat which is currently anchored in Antigua in the leeward islands.i talk on these threads to hopefully give a bit of insite to what I have been part of.
> Hal Chittum and I talk via emails about ideas and boat stuff from time to time.
> I still design boats all the time but most of my requests are from Sailboaters that like my shallow draft sailboats.
> I have tried to show in my blog posts that everything I have learned is from past ideas.
> The future will be like you have said all in very small upgrades and refinements.
> This I like very much.
> I will post online soon the hull lines I sent to Tom Gordon for all to see so everyone can compare the two hulls difference. This will show how things change when many different designers get in on the project.
> On another note, down here in the islands there are literally millions of tarpon about that have never been fished. Lots of fun fly casting to as they are very aggressive.
> Have a good day,


Good post Chris. Best time of year to fish the tarpon down there?


----------



## Blue Zone

Chris Morejohn said:


> Blue zone.
> You might have read the recent artical by Ted Lund about Hal Chittum and his latest project the big light weight Sport Fish.
> I have nothing to do with this at all. I live on my sailboat which is currently anchored in Antigua in the leeward islands.i talk on these threads to hopefully give a bit of insite to what I have been part of.
> Hal Chittum and I talk via emails about ideas and boat stuff from time to time.
> I still design boats all the time but most of my requests are from Sailboaters that like my shallow draft sailboats.
> I have tried to show in my blog posts that everything I have learned is from past ideas.
> The future will be like you have said all in very small upgrades and refinements.
> This I like very much.
> I will post online soon the hull lines I sent to Tom Gordon for all to see so everyone can compare the two hulls difference. This will show how things change when many different designers get in on the project.
> On another note, down here in the islands there are literally millions of tarpon about that have never been fished. Lots of fun fly casting to as they are very aggressive.
> Have a good day,


Chris,

Good that you got your identity back. Finally.
Nice post and thanks for clarifying your involvement on the skiffs.

Yes, I did read Ted Lund’s article. I made some earlier comments over on the 55 Chittum thread. I have had some additional thoughts on that, though I don’t want to derail this thread.

Tacking back to sailing, you and I had a discussion about the Bahamian Regatta catboats a while back. Last I heard you were over around Spanish Wells; I’ll have to catch up on your site/blog. Might you be heading over to the Bucket Race on your way home from Antigua?


----------



## Chris Morejohn

Blue Zone said:


> Chris,
> 
> Good that you got your identity back. Finally.
> Nice post and thanks for clarifying your involvement on the skiffs.
> 
> Yes, I did read Ted Lund’s article. I made some earlier comments over on the 55 Chittum thread. I have had some additional thoughts on that, though I don’t want to derail this thread.
> 
> Tacking back to sailing, you and I had a discussion about the Bahamian Regatta catboats a while back. Last I heard you were over around Spanish Wells; I’ll have to catch up on your site/blog. Might you be heading over to the Bucket Race on your way home from Antigua?


Hey guys, I'am sitting under big sailboats hull in the boatyard as a rain squall passes by.
The tarpon down here like to feed at night. I use very small white flies. Lots of baitfish, worms and very tiny shrimp about. I've hooked 3" jacks on these flies and the tarpon won't eat the Jack but these tiny flies drive them nuts.
I will be racing as crew for the winter season on a 37 Racheil Pugh all carbon sloop. Doing Grenada race week then on to the Caribean 600 and on to Hieneken regatta the Antigua race week.
From the in May we will sail home to the Bahamas and then over to Florida to get supplies for the summer.
I plan on checking out 7 different new skiff builds that are going on that people have been sharing with me online. Most are just private endevours.


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## sjrobin

Chris Morejohn said:


> Hey guys, I'am sitting under big sailboats hull in the boatyard as a rain squall passes by.
> The tarpon down here like to feed at night. I use very small white flies. Lots of baitfish, worms and very tiny shrimp about. I've hooked 3" jacks on these flies and the tarpon won't eat the Jack but these tiny flies drive them nuts.
> I will be racing as crew for the winter season on a 37 Racheil Pugh all carbon sloop. Doing Grenada race week then on to the Caribean 600 and on to Hieneken regatta the Antigua race week.
> From the in May we will sail home to the Bahamas and then over to Florida to get supplies for the summer.
> I plan on checking out 7 different new skiff builds that are going on that people have been sharing with me online. Most are just private endevours.


Thank you Chris for your innovative designs/ builds that truly were a game changer in the sport of saltwater fly fishing. For whatever reason, I don't believe you have been given the credit for your key contribution to the sport. I know the financing, production, and marketing are critical in getting the design to more of the people who appreciate and use your skiff designs but without your design and build techniques there was no skiff to market. From your blog and comments here it is good to see you are living the dream and still feeding the creative side with sailing hull design. 

Steve


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## Chris Morejohn

sjrobin said:


> Thank you Chris for your innovative designs/ builds that truly were a game changer in the sport of saltwater fly fishing. For whatever reason, I don't believe you have been given the credit for your key contribution to the sport. I know the financing, production, and marketing are critical in getting the design to more of the people who appreciate and use your skiff designs but without your design and build techniques there was no skiff to market. From your blog and comments here it is good to see you are living the dream and still feeding the creative side with sailing hull design.
> 
> Steve


Steve, thanks for the kind words. I started my blog and my Flats boat history because so many people were interested in their history. At the time my involvement was mostly a challange in design and a way to make a living. I have never had a problem with me being the behind the scenes guy. I have always been very appreciative of all my past clients that have provided the $ to employ me in all these projects. Without them I would never have gotten involved in flats boats as I'am a sailor first. 
If I had known that there would be so much intrest in these skiffs today I would have kept all my past info and taken way more pictures. Ha, I really had no clue.
I will add in to this thread some thoughts from an earlier question. I feel that really light skiffs and boats in general can be very hard to pole or handle because they lack the weight that gives momentum in forward motion.
So having a super light weight skiff will give you pros and cons.
The materials and engineering today of a skiff has shown that when running the ride will be fine. But at rest the boat can be cranky and jumpy. The jumpy feel comes from the very strong light weight constrution. These skiffs are very taught.
In sailing it's the same thing. A very light sailboat can feel like it wants to bounce you over board. Takes a while to get used to this. 
In small light weight skiffs when poling just a few hundred pounds makes a difference.
In my life I use a 12'3" skiff with a 15 hp Yamaha on the stern every day. I have built 6 different versions of this skiff using many types of materials with the lightest finished hull weighing 110 lbs. it was the worst one to use in daily life but the best for dragging up a beach. The best was one that weighed 180 lbs but it was too heavy to move about alone. The one we have now weighs 130 lbs and is about the best all round except the heavyest when poling around. So it's all a trade off.
I feel that the issues with skiff weights today should start off with the engines to be used with their new 4 stroke weights and how the new skiffs have been designed to handle these loads and what people are going to load into the skiffs.
Here in the Third World I can still buy 2 stroke outboards at very resonalble prices so maybe a new smuggling venture needs to happen in the dark world of flats skiffs and their quest to be the lightest and fastest.
Thank you net operator for my name back.


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## ol' superskiff

MariettaMike said:


> My OP states I had recently fished from both these 18' skiffs with veteran guides. So considering I've never fished from a 17SS, never seen a 17SS, and have never heard of anyone that owns a 17SS its not in here.
> 
> IMO Dolphin should have sold their molds to EC when they had the chance. Jus say'n.


Something makes me think they didn't need to.


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## Limp Shrimp

[QUOTE="MariettaMike, post: 288777, member: 4962 That's my fault for basing my comparison between a $62k+ cutting edge material hand built skiff and a $52k+ old school material production skiff, and then assuming a $46k version of the $62k skiff that has yet to be produced was easy.[/QUOTE]

Mike, when you were quoted these numbers, were they for complete packages or just a hull?


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## MariettaMike

Limp Shrimp said:


> Mike, when you were quoted these numbers, were they for complete packages or just a hull?





George Sawley said:


> Yes this new skiff will be out in a month or so to demo. Skiff price will start at $46,000.00 Boat, motor and trailer package. Motor offered is a Tohatsu 50 four stroke. Ramlin galvanized. Yes there is a waiting list Feb would be delivery time at this point.


The $52k+ Marquesa base BMT package price was from like two years ago and is probably higher now.

I saw someone post a $68k BMT base price for the Chittum Legacy recently, but I can't confirm that..


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## jsnipes

That sounds right re: Chittum as I think finished skiffs were in the 70s

Note the new 46k Chittum BMT is with 50hp (I am pretty sure), so going to a 70 probably costs another 2-3k I am assuming.


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## Net 30

Just poking the hornets nest to see if there is any update on the new 2 degree Chittum? 

Saw a new pic on Facebook the other day.


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## George Sawley

Hey there Net30,

We are about two weeks away from finishing the cap, deck, 3 hatches and live well for the new model. But so you know the new deck will fit the 12 degree hull as well as the 2 degree. The 2 degree hull is done and ready to build as soon as the deck parts are finished. We have had some delays with humidity and the holidays but up and running full steam now.

George


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## MariettaMike

George Sawley said:


> We are about two weeks away from finishing the cap, deck, 3 hatches and live well for the new model.


Thanks for the update George. I see your posting some pics on Facebook and had a couple questions.

What does Chittum Skiffs have "patent pending" on?


Is this "cooler step" an option with the new cap?


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## jsnipes

This series of photos is pretty cool; can really see the spray rails at work
http://floridakeysflatsguide.com/Islamorada18#image1


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## George Sawley

MariettaMike said:


> Thanks for the update George. I see your posting some pics on Facebook and had a couple questions.
> 
> What does Chittum Skiffs have "patent pending" on?
> 
> 
> Is this "cooler step" an option with the new cap?


The skiff on the bow is hull 2 or 3, we put Patent Pending on the first 12 or so skiff as we were waiting for the patent application to go threw. The hull is Patented. 

The box was custom made for the client, its the ice chest from our console cut in half and bonded together.


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## devrep

jsnipes said:


> This series of photos is pretty cool; can really see the spray rails at work
> http://floridakeysflatsguide.com/Islamorada18#image1


The spray rails seem to work well but if those photos were taken in 20 knot winds I must have been in 40 knot winds in Crystal Bay yesterday.


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## sjrobin

Yeah devrep, twenty knot winds in West Matagorda and that bow is going under at that speed.


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## George Sawley

MariettaMike said:


> Thanks for the update George. I see your posting some pics on Facebook and had a couple questions.
> 
> What does Chittum Skiffs have "patent pending" on? *patent*images.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US*D607805*.pdf
> 
> 
> Is this "cooler step" an option with the new cap?


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## jtrev3

George:
Thanks for letting me have the 2 degree prototype for a few days. An amazing boat. I was polling in 5 inches and running at 37 mph with the 50hp Tohatsu. What surprised me the most is how stable it is. The reason I sold my 2002 Waterman 18 was because of stability. My Marquesa was a lot better but this boat, at half the weight, is just as stable! Build me one!
Jesse


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## Net 30

jtrev3 said:


> George:
> Thanks for letting me have the 2 degree prototype for a few days. An amazing boat. I was polling in 5 inches and running at 37 mph with the 50hp Tohatsu. What surprised me the most is how stable it is. The reason I sold my 2002 Waterman 18 was because of stability. My Marquesa was a lot better but this boat, at half the weight, is just as stable! Build me one!
> Jesse


I just saw the pics on the Chittum FB page of the side console with that custom cooler step…what a dream rig! How about posting a good in-depth review of the 2 degree you had for a few days?


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## Fish_specialist

Be on the lookout guys!!


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## George Sawley

Fish_specialist said:


> Be on the lookout guys!!
> 
> UPDATE! Boat Recovered, Thank you for the help! Fortunately boat is completely intact and unharmed. Can't believe some one would steal a Smurf blue boat, what were they thinking. I would have loved to have seen their face when they saw it pop up on Facebook. Thanks again everyone!


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## yobata

Can you give us some detail on how the boat was recovered? How did they steal it? Did they have a trailer to take it off water? Is someone in jail? I'm glad you recovered your skiff!


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## George Sawley

yobata said:


> Can you give us some detail on how the boat was recovered? How did they steal it? Did they have a trailer to take it off water? Is someone in jail? I'm glad you recovered your skiff!


Skiff was taken from Hal's driveway, cops called. Lock cut from trailer and left on the side of the road. Don't have much info other then that at the moment.


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## Megalops

Well, they're pretty effing dumb since that skiff doesn't really blend in with the others.  But glad you got her back. Man I can't stand thievery.


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## Net 30

George Sawley said:


> Skiff was taken from Hal's driveway, cops called. Lock cut from trailer and left on the side of the road. Don't have much info other then that at the moment.


It was probably one of those East Cape or Hells Bay guys........


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## George Sawley

Net 30 said:


> It was probably one of those East Cape or Hells Bay guys........


Funny, we were joking around the shop that some one took it to copy the bottom..... lol


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## yobata

I hate thieves! Glad you got it back!!


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## Fish_specialist

Glad it was recovered George-

It's weird that that skiff would be stolen in Rocky Point. Generally VERY safe neighborhood. (I grew up in that neighborhood)


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## Harlieb3

Well?


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## Indoman

Beautiful boat George. Wow.

How is that blue deck color in the heat of a summer day? I love that color but have some reservations about it getting too hot.


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## George Sawley

Indoman said:


> Beautiful boat George. Wow.
> 
> How is that blue deck color in the heat of a summer day? I love that color but have some reservations about it getting too hot.


On the scale of 1 to 10 I would say its a 8. ..... I was shooting for less glare and taking a chance on the heat factor. Its a toss up but less glare and sunburn are my preference, Im going to try a shade lighter next time around.


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## LOUMan

George any updates on the new Islmorada with new cap?


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## George Sawley

LOUMan said:


> George any updates on the new Islmorada with new cap?


Yes, cap is done, next week we start building decks.


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## commtrd

fishman said:


> Hey they are damn good boats that hold there value. And if you own it long enough you can sell it for more than paid new. 99% of all HB owners are extremely satisfied with performance, draft, ease of poling, and the many boat ramp offers to sell. ............ SORRY YOU DONT OWN ONE. ;D


My Professional weighed 1100 lbs and felt heavy on the pole. There are many good skiffs available nowadays. They are all expensive. Most are too heavy.


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## Matts

commtrd said:


> My Professional weighed 1100 lbs and felt heavy on the pole. There are many good skiffs available nowadays. They are all expensive. Most are too heavy.


Keith, 
How on earth did you revive a thread from 2015
Matt


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