# Is it the Line or Me?



## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

Recently loaded my reel with some Rio Bone Quikshooter in the 8wt. This morning, I started throwing a gurgler and had a lot of problems shooting the line. I switched the fly over to a clouser pattern and had better results. I'm using a older Sage Rpl blank that was custom made. I've honestly never had a issue casting my other Rod with different patterns. They all seem to work well. I'm just wondering if anyone who uses the line or has used a similar Sage Rod has seen any of these problems. I'm by no means a fly professional so any help would be appreciated. Thx


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

And by trouble shooting line, I mean 3 false casts and only getting 20-30 feet at best. It seemed like the line was stuck to my hand and wouldn't go through the guides.


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## Capt. Eli Whidden (Jun 7, 2012)

Your over loading the rod with that line. Go to a lighter grain.


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

Capt. Eli Whidden said:


> Your over loading the rod with that line. Go to a lighter grain.


Thx man! Bummer though with the cost of line now days. I use to complain about buying power pro..


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## BayStYat (Sep 12, 2012)

try changing leader length. I adjust my leader for the type of fly.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Sorry Eli, but on the contrary and with all due respect, that's a bonefish line so the rod is under loaded with some of the head still in the guides and the flies are shocking the line. 

Afterhours2, bonefish lines are design to throw small flies, not big gurglers or heavy clousers. So that is the 1st problem. The 2nd problem is that shooting head is about 35ft long and the weight is distributed more evenly across the length of the head and not as much towards the front of the head. Designed for more distance casting with nothing flies. So that head length is almost what it takes out of the tip top guide to load a rod, especially a fast rod. But the slower RPL rod wouldn't need that much to load. But coupled with the big and heavy flies, that line can not handle it with half of the head still in the guides, so the rod will not load properly. 

Listen guys, a bone or bonefish line is design for a specific purpose, throwing small #6 - #2 beadchain eyes 1" of nothing bonefish flies on wide open shallow flats where distance is the ticket and you need to aerialize a lot of line to reach out 50-70ft+ (especially with a fast rod). Don't go using it to throw big bushing or heavy flies at close-up tailing marsh reds or snook under the mangrove branches in tight quarters, cause it ain't gonna work right.

So put the bonefish line up for a special trip to the Keys or the islands and use it then. Then break out a good saltwater taper, bassbug taper or redfish line, string it up on that rod and go fish it with those flies you want to use. Note; Always try to keep at least 20+ feet of fly line (that's flyline, not 20ft to the fly) out of the tip top guide before you pick it up off the water to cast it again, unless you have a fish on the fly and you're trying to get it to eat as it follows you to the boat. Anyways, then, with all the slack out of the line and rod tip pointed at the water (try touching the rod tip to the water), SLOWLY lift it up off the water using the tension of the water to start the loading process and shoot some line out during the back cast. Allow it to completely un-roll the loop and then make your forward castback out there with a shoot. If you do that right, most of the times you will not need to false cast, unless you are changing direction. Got it?


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## JRP (Sep 24, 2012)

Great Tips thanks


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

I thought the whole point of the "quickshooter" was to load quickly with less line out in order to make quick/short shots?

The 8 wt bonefish quickshooter @ 290 grains









vs the baseic 8 wt "redfish" line @ 290 grains









The head length (and subsections) appear identical to me from a length perspective.

So you are saying the bonefish quickshooter has the weight spread out more across the body while the redfish would have more of the weight forward in the body?

This would require the bonefish quickshooter to have more line out of the tip in order to load while the redfish with more weight forward would require less line out of the tip? (This seems counter intuitive to the "quickshooter" moniker eh?)

But ultimately this would allow the redfish line to carry and present a larger fly as the loop rolls out?


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

I use Rio outbound tropical for the big bulky flies.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

AfterHours2 said:


> And by trouble shooting line, I mean 3 false casts and only getting 20-30 feet at best. It seemed like the line was stuck to my hand and wouldn't go through the guides.


I think everybody is correct based on their interpretation of your alleged problem.

If you're "shooting" 20-30 feet of line to make a 55 foot or longer cast I would say your casting is great. Now if you're only "casting" 20-30 feet then I would say you need to get another 10-20 feet of line out the rod tip (30-40 feet line, not counting leader) before you even think about "shooting" line. That goes for any line for any body with any rod.

The name "Quickshooter" means the line is made to make quick short "casts", NOT "shoot" line. I'm also guessing the Sage RPL rod isn't a "fast" rod by modern standards, and requires a deliberate pause to allow it to unload on both front and back casts after the STOP.

http://www.sexyloops.com/beginners/lesson1/shootingline.shtml

crboggs is correct. The Bonefish Quickshooter is the same line as the Redfish. I've even heard Raz say it, and RIO says it on their website info, just in a different order.
copied from RIO website


RIO's bonefish line loads a rod at close range, has a medium length front taper for great turnover, and a long back taper to smooth out the casting loop and keep the line stable on long shots.


RIO's latest saltwater line (Bonefish Quickshooter) is a real asset for the saltwater angler, and particularly useful for when wading flats, or in poor light conditions _when short range casts are the order of the day_. The _short, easy casting head loads _a rod quickly and delivers fast, accurate casts with ease. It is also an ideal line for the novice saltwater angler.
Revolutionary design allows for incredible loop stability and distance
_Unique, easy casting taper that loads a fly rod at close range_


RIO's Redfish line loads a rod at close range and has a medium length front taper for great turnover and presentation. It is an _ideal line for fly fishing at close range,_ and particularly suitable when fishing for Redfish or Bonefish on cloudy days. The line has a hard AgentX saltwater coating which will not wilt in heat, and ensures that the line floats high, is easy to pick up and that the running line stays afloat. 
_Short head loads rods at close range_
Mid-length front taper for great turnover and presentation


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

Thx for the help fellas! Backwater, before I read your post, I actually went back down to the dock and tried a lighter shrimp pattern fly. The ticket to the line that I found was just like you explained. I started with about 20-30 ft of line out of the guides. The combo between this and the lighter fly ended up being the ticket. I was fishing a small creek yesterday and assumed the bonefish line was the right choice just by going on what is published on the Rio site. I think I'll just plan on using it when I'm out on the flats and get another for the short casts. As far as pairing goes, what type of line and Rod do you guys recommend for these short creek casting days?


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

crboggs said:


> I thought the whole point of the "quickshooter" was to load quickly with less line out in order to make quick/short shots?
> 
> The 8 wt bonefish quickshooter @ 290 grains
> 
> ...


I'm confused on this as well. But after trial and error, I've found the complete opposite of what they claim. This line actually gave me more distance while being a PITA in the short game..


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## bananabob (Jun 3, 2015)

Very short casting with fast rods can be quite challenging but the RPL should do it better. However fly fishing and figuring out ALL the quirks with rods and lines and what works best for what is probably more tricky than trying to figure out women.
Personally I gotten to liking my clear Monic lines on my 8wts


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

AfterHours2 said:


> I'm confused on this as well. But after trial and error, I've found the complete opposite of what they claim. This line actually gave me more distance while being a PITA in the short game..


That might be true for casts under 30' because the "body" of the head on the quick shooter starts 14.5' from the end while the body on the regular line starts at 6.5' from the end. RIO probably considers 30-40' short casts, 40-60' average casts, and 60'+ long casts.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Ok I didn't realize their bonefish quick shooter and redfish had the same taper. Still, that taper is not designed to turn over large and heavy flies because of the front tapers.


But this is Rio's normal Bonefish line











Now look at these RIO's line tapers and notice the tapers

RIO


















These would be a tapers that throws big/heavy flies at distances The weight is forward in head.



Here's some others.....


SA Redfish warm water








LINE WEIGHT HEAD LENGTH TOTAL LENGTH
WF-8-F 26.5′ 100.0′ 

Notice the head length 


SA Redfish cold water










SA Saltwater











NEW Airflow lines for saltwater












Here's the point, the Rio Redfish and the bonefish quick shooter appears to be the same taper as crboggs indicated above from Rio's site.  I apologize I didn't notice that since my 1st thought was the Rio Bonefish diagram above (not the quick shooter). However, look how the belly in both the Rio Bone quick shooter and the their Redfish line thins out going forward from the main head belly. As the line thins, the weight of that section decreases. Good for easy light presentations with smaller bonefish or smaller redfish patterns, like flies you would throw up in the grass for redfish, small light kwans and sliders, small redfish crack, etc and bead chain eyes flies. Those cast needs most of the head out past the tip top before it loads the rod. But trying to load up the rod short with big bulky flies or heavy clousers which will drag the fly line tip around and will little weight out of the rod tip, it will be hard to straighten out the fly line, which is what it takes to load the rod and send it out there like a slingshot.

Look at the other tapers above. Though level in some cases with short front tapers, more weight is distributed towards the front of the head, which in turns puts more line weight outside of your tip top guide, which in turns helps to load the rod quicker. Also the larger diameter front end of the head will help to turn that large heavy fly over quicker. Otherwise you have to get enough of the head out (all of the main belly) to turn it over with hopefully your ability to cause the line to turn over. So there's would be nothing short about that cast with those flies. Remember, you are casting the line, NOT the fly! The fly is just along for the ride! 

So in the original poster's comments, he had a hard time getting the bulky gurgler out far enough (which can act like a helicopter) to load the rod. If he started out with about 20-30 ft of fly line out of the tip top, then the rod will load, but the line will still complain about the bulky, wind resistant fly. On the other hand, he said the clouser threw better since the slim but heavy weight of the fly help to tug more line out of the guide with shear inertia/ force.

Hope that clarifies things up for you.


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## Capt. Eli Whidden (Jun 7, 2012)

For an RPL series, I still think the rio lines are to heavy. I would try a lighter grain line either way. 

SA's redfish taper is at 224 grains and the bonefish taper at 210 grains.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Capt. Eli Whidden said:


> For an RPL series, I still think the rio lines are to heavy. I would try a lighter grain line either way.
> 
> SA's redfish taper is at 224 grains and the bonefish taper at 210 grains.



I believe he's using the Rio's. But if that's the case (different weight of those lines in a Rio), then that explains why the bone is harder to load than the Redfish, despite the fact that they have the same taper, then it's back to my point (not enough weight outside of the guides to load the rod).


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

All this math and science in fishing...egads! *lol*

Comparing the Bonefish Quickshooter to the Redfish line is probably a little faulty in my logic above.

A better comparison is probably the Bonefish vs the Bonefish Quickshooter.

But ultimately Backwater provided alot of good info on a variety of lines that can deliver different types of flies.

I run a Rio Redfish on my 8wt flats rod and a Airflo Ridge Clear (Bonefish/Redfish) line on my 6wt rod. Those rods/lines are used almost exclusively in skinny water situations...all day in 24" or less, mostly. So think small, unweighted flies along with simple gurglers or crease flies. Max casting distance probably in the 60-70' range since I can't see fish at 100' anyways...unless they are tailing or pushing which allows us to sneak in closer on the push pole.

I do really like the SA Mastery Saltwater line I caught a deal on and spooled on my starter 8wt combo. (An old Orvis Power Matrix 10) That rod casts that line much better for me than it did the Rio Redfish that was on it when I bought it. I often use it around our local lakes and it does a much better job with the bigger poppers and boogers I sometimes use for largemouth bass. It seems to handle bigger flies way better than the Rio or Airflo I have on the other rods...and was cheaper.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Backwater said:


> However, look how the belly in both the Rio Bone quick shooter and the their Redfish line thins out going forward from the main head belly. As the line thins, the weight of that section decreases. Good for easy light presentations with smaller bonefish or smaller redfish patterns, like flies you would throw up in the grass for redfish, small light kwans and sliders, small redfish crack, etc and bead chain eyes flies. Those cast needs most of the head out past the tip top before it loads the rod. But trying to load up the rod short with big bulky flies or heavy clousers which will drag the fly line tip around and will little weight out of the rod tip, it will be hard to straighten out the fly line, which is what it takes to load the rod and send it out there like a slingshot.


Yup...and that explains why I f'ing hate throwing weighted flies on that redfish line. 

Makes perfect sense now that I've read this thread.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Capt. Eli Whidden said:


> For an RPL series, I still think the rio lines are to heavy. I would try a lighter grain line either way.
> 
> SA's redfish taper is at 224 grains and the bonefish taper at 210 grains.


Completely agree - the Rio redfish line is too heavy. Gurgler's are flies that get a ton of wind drag due to their design, so they are harder to cast. The clouser you change to is weighted, which will pull the line with it's momentum - the gurlger will actually slow it down due to the drag.

I throw gurglers on my 6 weight, so it can also be casting mechanics. To combat the wind drag, you have to increase line speed. So haul the hell out of it. Unless that gurgler is a 2/0 and 4" long, or you are fishing a 10' or 12' leader, you should be able to throw it on a 8 with that line.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

Definitely a combination of rod, line weight, and fly type.

That RPL is a fine rod but a little older and the Bonefish Quickshooter has a head weight of 290gr for the 8wt. Their regular Bonefish taper is only 225gr. That's a big difference on a rod that's not quite as fast as the newer stuff. For comparison, the Bonefish taper in 9wt is only 260gr and the Bonefish Quickshooter in 9wt is 330gr.

You're overloading the rod so it "bounces" and it's difficult to smoothly transfer the energy of your cast.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

coconutgroves said:


> Completely agree - the Rio redfish line is too heavy. Gurgler's are flies that get a ton of wind drag due to their design, so they are harder to cast. The clouser you change to is weighted, which will pull the line with it's momentum - the gurlger will actually slow it down due to the drag.
> 
> I throw gurglers on my 6 weight, so it can also be casting mechanics. To combat the wind drag, you have to increase line speed. So haul the hell out of it. Unless that gurgler is a 2/0 and 4" long, or you are fishing a 10' or 12' leader, you should be able to throw it on a 8 with that line.


If he's only making 20 to 30ft cast (minus a 9ft leader means there is only 11-21ft of fly line out) at most, then he doesn't have enough of the head out of the tip top guide to get the rod to load. You might be right if he managed to aerialize the whole head out (total weight of the head) and would cause that softer rod to start collapsing on itself. Either way, it's not the right line for what he's trying to do. Remember, it's alot easier to throw an overlined or over loaded rod than a rod that's not loaded at all cause it ain't going nowhere. Just sayin....

Now to comment about increasing line speed to throw larger, bulkier flies and heavy clousers. No! That's too much work and you'll end up throwing tailing loops with the weighted flies as the flies will drag and other things with the bulky flies. Rather, open up your loop some instead of trying to throw a tight loop (unless the wind is blowing head on towards you). Try it and you see it helps to throw those flies better. I know it goes against the grain of what us high techy fly rodders learn, but it works. For the guys out there that don't know how to do that, add a slight arch to your cast (both the front and make cast) instead of your tip tracking straight for tighter loops. So you want your loops to be about 3ft high +/-. Don't force line speed but instead throw long, easy and steady strokes. Make sure your loops completely unroll before you start you movement in the opposite direct.

There is one more cast you can try and that's called the Belgian cast, a.k.a. continuous loop cast or constant tension cast or oval cast. It's great for throwing in the wind but it also is a good cast to throw heavy or bulky flies by keeping a nice size loop in the line by never stopping the fly on each step of the cast. Each time the fly stops, it shocks the line when it's pulled in the other direction. So this constant motion loop (which is what I like to call it) never stops the fly which helps casting those flies.

Check it out.


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

What this all boils down to has nothing to do with lines, rods, or how they match up, because a good caster can compensate for all the various problems which have been thoroughly discussed.
The problem is simply casting skill/experience. OTOH, the lines being made now are much heavier than when Sage was building RPLs, ( 20 years ago?) so it would probably make sense to go down a line size with SW lines, especially one made by RIO which seem to really push head weight to the limit.
JC


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

I knew when I acquired the rod, that I was getting one that was not up to par with the newer models. The blank sat around for a long time until it was finally made a few years ago. Just figured I would give it a shot. Unfortunately, I left the rod that I normally cast well with at home. Never had a issue with it and it's a cheaper Redington with some Rio Redfish. Oh well. Thx for the help fellas!


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

jonrconner said:


> What this all boils down to has nothing to do with lines, rods, or how they match up, because a good caster can compensate for all the various problems which have been thoroughly discussed.
> The problem is simply casting skill/experience. OTOH, the lines being made now are much heavier than when Sage was building RPLs, ( 20 years ago?) so it would probably make sense to go down a line size with SW lines, especially one made by RIO which seem to really push head weight to the limit.
> JC


Your most certainly right. I started fly fishing 20 years ago in freshwater. Stopped doing so for a long long time. I'm honestly now just getting back in the swing of things after getting tired of catching fish on the spinning outfit. I enjoy it regardless of my skill level..


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

AfterHours2 said:


> I knew when I acquired the rod, that I was getting one that was not up to par with the newer models. The blank sat around for a long time until it was finally made a few years ago. Just figured I would give it a shot. Unfortunately, I left the rod that I normally cast well with at home. Never had a issue with it and it's a cheaper Redington with some Rio Redfish. Oh well. Thx for the help fellas!



There's nothing wrong with the rod. It just needs the right line to wake it up. It's a progressive rod compares to today's standard, but it's a nice, easy casting blank.

Buy this line for it in Olive. It's cheap but good for the money, suppel, light and has the right taper for that rod. I'll send you a demo line to see if you like it or not, then you can send it back.

http://www.tforods.com/accessories/fly-lines.html#.VjqufdKrQ1I


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

Backwater said:


> There's nothing wrong with the rod. It just needs the right line to wake it up. It's a progressive rod compares to today's standard, but it's a nice, easy casting blank.
> 
> Buy this line for it in Olive. It's cheap but good for the money, suppel, light and has the right taper for that rod. I'll send you a demo line to see if you like it or not, then you can send it back.
> 
> http://www.tforods.com/accessories/fly-lines.html#.VjqufdKrQ1I


Sounds like a plan. I actually have a few different spools that I acquired in a fly tying lot that I'm going to try also. I'm not opposed to switching my reel with the Rio redfish line either to the Rod to try it out. I just need to do more experimenting with line type to get it right. Thx for the help Backwater, and I'll let you know if I need any demos..


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## Capt. Eli Whidden (Jun 7, 2012)

I wouldn't give up on the rod either, the RPL's are nice rods. As Sage progressed, they came out with the RPL+, then the RPLX, followed by the RPLxi. The later, geared to the saltwater angler. All of them, load extremely easy. You just gotta wait a little longer than you would with any of today's newer, faster rods. They have a stiff butt section with a very flexible tip. 
I fish with my RPL+'s all the time. There much faster than the original RPL's and will handle bulkier flies better. However, gurglers can be tricky to throw with any rod, especially with an over loaded one...

What's the blank?


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

The only thing marked on the Rod blank is Sage Rpl 8wt. Other than that, it's always been a mystery..


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

The solution to all this is to get your technique perfected, watch some instructional videos by casting experts, get a lesson from a certified instructor, sometimes it just takes a few minutes and a few pointers to get headed in the right direction. And then PRACTICE on the lawn, the more casts you make, the better you will get if you concentrate on getting it right. If you can do some videos of yourself casting it can be quite enlightening.
BTW fishing isn't practice, you're mind isn't in the cast.

JC


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

jonrconner said:


> The solution to all this is to get your technique perfected, watch some instructional videos by casting experts, get a lesson from a certified instructor, sometimes it just takes a few minutes and a few pointers to get headed in the right direction. And then PRACTICE on the lawn, the more casts you make, the better you will get if you concentrate on getting it right. If you can do some videos of yourself casting it can be quite enlightening.
> BTW fishing isn't practice, you're mind isn't in the cast.
> 
> JC



Good stuff Jon! What area are you located?

Afterhours2, what area are you located?

Eli, one of the sweetest rods I've ever casted was a RPLX 7wt (not the " i " ) with the brown blank. at trout and small dock light snook. I had the pleasure of using it for an entire weekend and I felt like I was in a fly fishing dream, but never could find one for myself. Still looking! 

Ted


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Backwater said:


> Sorry Eli, but on the contrary and with all due respect, that's a bonefish line so the rod is under loaded with some of the head still in the guides and the flies are shocking the line.
> 
> Afterhours2, bonefish lines are design to throw small flies, not big gurglers or heavy clousers. So that is the 1st problem. The 2nd problem is that shooting head is about 35ft long and the weight is distributed more evenly across the length of the head and not as much towards the front of the head. Designed for more distance casting with nothing flies. So that head length is almost what it takes out of the tip top guide to load a rod, especially a fast rod. But the slower RPL rod wouldn't need that much to load. But coupled with the big and heavy flies, that line can not handle it with half of the head still in the guides, so the rod will not load properly.
> 
> ...


Another great explanation Ted. Lots of first time sight casting fly rod anglers show up thinking false casts(spooked fish) and any old saltwater line will work with any fly and wind.


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

I'm in New England, a little far!
JC


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm in Orlando. I really thought I had my lawn casting technique perfected, until I brought along a rod that I have only casted a few times.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Backwater said:


> Now to comment about increasing line speed to throw larger, bulkier flies and heavy clousers. No! That's too much work and you'll end up throwing tailing loops with the weighted flies as the flies will drag and other things with the bulky flies.


Don't necessarily agree with that. Tailing loops are caused by a concave motion with the rod hand during the casting stroke. Line speed causes a tighter loop and will put more energy into the rod. I chuck 2/0 clousers for bass all the time - line speed is super important to get it out there. Sure, I can open it up as you say, but good luck getting that over 30' to 40 '. It will be difficult unless you increase that line speed and use the rod to its potential.

It isn't too much work either - my casting arm doesn't do the work, my hauling hand does. A good double haul cures many casting ailments. It comes down to mechanics, not the line and rods. They are factors, but I would not overline my rod under normal conditions. My same line I use for bonefish is the same line I used for reds. It's the same line I use for bass (when casting poppers). Royal Wulff Bermuda Triangle Taper.

Think we beat the horse on this topic guys. Glad I could get a few kicks in.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

coconutgroves said:


> Don't necessarily agree with that. Tailing loops are caused by a concave motion with the rod hand during the casting stroke. Line speed causes a tighter loop and will put more energy into the rod. I chuck 2/0 clousers for bass all the time - line speed is super important to get it out there. Sure, I can open it up as you say, but good luck getting that over 30' to 40 '. It will be difficult unless you increase that line speed and use the rod to its potential.
> 
> It isn't too much work either - my casting arm doesn't do the work, my hauling hand does. A good double haul cures many casting ailments. It comes down to mechanics, not the line and rods. They are factors, but I would not overline my rod under normal conditions. My same line I use for bonefish is the same line I used for reds. It's the same line I use for bass (when casting poppers). Royal Wulff Bermuda Triangle Taper.
> 
> Think we beat the horse on this topic guys. Glad I could get a few kicks in.



True, a concave casting stroke, as opposed to a level or straight tip or hand path will cause a tailing loop. But a tight loop without enough line speed with a heavy fly will drag the fly below the flyline, thereby causing it to tail and eventually causing wind knots. So you have to ramp up the speed for sure. But a lot of novice and intermediate level caster are not that proficient with that yet, so opening up the loop is an easy way to over come it. I can tell you how far I can throw an open loop, but that's not fair to share with these guys. But you can throw an open loop cast almost as far as you can throw a tight loop if your technique is right (and not too open (about 3ft+/-)), as long as the wind is not blowing hard.

Remember, his rod is a slow rod and not design for super fast line speed and hauls too hard with heavy weighted or wind resistant flies, which can over power the rod if not executed properly. That's when you'll think the rod is over lined or over loaded!

Yes, rod mechanics are the most important. But getting your equipment together right is also important so one doesn't have to struggle as much. This might be the case.

As far as the casting mechanics goes, Yes your right, a good double haul is important, but it's half the battle. The rod stroke with the casting hand is just as important, if not more.

Btw, that triangle wulff line is a good line to turn over flies. I've tried one once with lighter flies and it seem to do good. But never fished clousers or gurglers with it before, so idk.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

The Rio bonefish quick shooter and the Rio redfish are the exact same lines. I had spoken to rio and they confirmed this. It's probably overloaded as those lines are heavier than listed.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> The Rio bonefish quick shooter and the Rio redfish are the exact same lines. I had spoken to rio and they confirmed this. It's probably overloaded as those lines are heavier than listed.


You can't overload a rod if you don't have enough line out to overload it. He didn't have enough of the head out to load the rod up. Again, 20-30 ft cast, minus 9ft of leader = 11-21ft of head, which the redfish is a 36ft head. You have to get the head out to load the rod, then weather it's over loaded or not can be determine. Like I said, it's easier to throw an over loaded rod than a rod not loaded at all.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> You can't overload a rod if you don't have enough line out to overload it. He didn't didn't have enough of the head out to load the rod up.


Truthfully I didn't read through all the other post before replying. I read until someone suggested it was a bonefish line. At that point I chimed in since it's a redfish line repackaged and colored differently.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Afterhours2, you should come to the Big Gun Shootout in Tampa at Picnic Island on the 22nd of this month to watch the event. I'll be there and you can bring that setup with you and come look me up. I'll have several lines we can try, along with seeing what's going on with that line and your casting stroke.

For the rest of you fellas, come participate and let's see whatcha got!


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## Limp Shrimp (Aug 23, 2015)

Afterhours, I'm by no means a great caster, but I did get a big improvement in my abilities after having my rod weighed and a line matched to it... my local shop put it in a vice and had a system for seeing how many grams it took to load it to it's optimal flex, at which point they weighed the fly line I was to purchase... My 8# airflow ridge that was causing me problems weighed out to almost a 10# ... I'm currently casting what they call a permit taper and it works great for throwing my gurgler pattern. I also like to tie flies that most people would think were too large, but I'm blind and like my flies big so I can see them and the reds and tarpon I like to chase don't seem to mind..


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Limp Shrimp said:


> Afterhours, I'm by no means a great caster, but I did get a big improvement in my abilities after having my rod weighed and a line matched to it... my local shop put it in a vice and had a system for seeing how many grams it took to load it to it's optimal flex, at which point they weighed the fly line I was to purchase... My 8# airflow ridge that was causing me problems weighed out to almost a 10# ... I'm currently casting what they call a permit taper and it works great for throwing my gurgler pattern. I also like to tie flies that most people would think were too large, but I'm blind and like my flies big so I can see them and the reds and tarpon I like to chase don't seem to mind..



Limp Shrimp, I love that handle for sure! lol

That's a very interesting reply. I've hear of mfg's doing that but not a shop. What fly shop?

Love the blind thing, sounds like me!  I was practicing yesterday for an accuracy competition coming up and had to have my wife stand there to tell me where the blame thing was landing? I guess I'm doing it more for fun than to be competitive.


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

Limp Shrimp said:


> Afterhours, I'm by no means a great caster, but I did get a big improvement in my abilities after having my rod weighed and a line matched to it... my local shop put it in a vice and had a system for seeing how many grams it took to load it to it's optimal flex, at which point they weighed the fly line I was to purchase... My 8# airflow ridge that was causing me problems weighed out to almost a 10# ... I'm currently casting what they call a permit taper and it works great for throwing my gurgler pattern. I also like to tie flies that most people would think were too large, but I'm blind and like my flies big so I can see them and the reds and tarpon I like to chase don't seem to mind..


That's interesting. The fact that I have a older style blank is probably one of the reasons I'm having a hard time with the modern line weights. I'm also guilty of tying heavier flies, but I really like the action of a heavier gurgler. I have not had the chance to update this thread in a short while but I did take a ton of these recommendations and do some experimenting. The key to the quick shooter, and the older Sage, is to start with more of the shooting head out like Backwaters earlier advice..


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## Limp Shrimp (Aug 23, 2015)

Backwater said:


> Limp Shrimp, I love that handle for sure! lol
> 
> That's a very interesting reply. I've hear of mfg's doing that but not a shop. What fly shop?
> 
> Love the blind thing, sounds like me!  I was practicing yesterday for an accuracy competition coming up and had to have my wife stand there to tell me where the blame thing was landing? I guess I'm doing it more for fun than to be competitive.


The shop that did that was Harry Goodes shop in Melbourne... I was wanting a new rod, but I and was trying to hold out until I could get my hands on an old GLX Classic 9#. One of the young guys that worked there told me he could make almost any rod cast well and explained his theory of matching line weights to the rod... He got very technical with the grains and manufacturing specs and all the stuff you guys were trying to teach us.. Line grains and tapers get very complicated and I have a basic understanding of it , but I'm better a casting it a couple times and seeing how it feels.. I ended up picking up a new rod from them and re-strung some of my other rods after the education I got from them and I'm getting a lot more enjoyment out of my other equipment I used to struggle to cast now that I swapped lines..

Afterhours, One of my favorite rods is the one you have you just need to get the right line for it.. If you like the gurgler you should YouTube the stealth bomber fly pattern... Its similar, but if you long strip it, it will dive some..


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

The way they determined what line would work best was probably using a system of flex rating called "common cents".
You can learn about it here, http://www.common-cents.info, it's not the last word, but there's a lot that can be learned by playing with this method.
JC


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

Limp Shrimp said:


> The shop that did that was Harry Goodes shop in Melbourne... I was wanting a new rod, but I and was trying to hold out until I could get my hands on an old GLX Classic 9#. One of the young guys that worked there told me he could make almost any rod cast well and explained his theory of matching line weights to the rod... He got very technical with the grains and manufacturing specs and all the stuff you guys were trying to teach us.. Line grains and tapers get very complicated and I have a basic understanding of it , but I'm better a casting it a couple times and seeing how it feels.. I ended up picking up a new rod from them and re-strung some of my other rods after the education I got from them and I'm getting a lot more enjoyment out of my other equipment I used to struggle to cast now that I swapped lines..
> 
> Afterhours, One of my favorite rods is the one you have you just need to get the right line for it.. If you like the gurgler you should YouTube the stealth bomber fly pattern... Its similar, but if you long strip it, it will dive some..


Just curious, which line do you use on the RPL? I realize you have done a ton more experimenting than I have with different rods and line. Thx


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## Limp Shrimp (Aug 23, 2015)

AfterHours2 said:


> Just curious, which line do you use on the RPL? I realize you have done a ton more experimenting than I have with different rods and line. Thx


I wouldn't say I have done a ton of experimenting, I've mostly gone off of the experiences of what others have posted .. that was the first scientific aproach I've seen anyone take to picking lines... the test is the penny measurement someone posted of and it's worth the effort, there is a lot of variation between rods, even the same rod that was made at different times...I would recommend having your rod matched, I didn't have that one measured..


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