# Live Bait Rig



## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

I've been tossing around the idea of getting a couple of spinning rigs for live bait use for reds and even cat fish when I am visiting my family in the midwest. I'd expect to be using 1-3 oz sinkers and big baits in the environments I am likely to fish. I would also use circle hooks as these generally would be in a rod holder, not my hands. For this type of use, it seems that I wouldn't need to invest in a super lightweight and super sensitive outfit to get a good rig. I was thinking a heavy weight Ugly Stik paired with a bigger Penn Battle would be a good combo since I wouldn't be constantly casting them. Any thoughts or advice are appreciated. I've seen Pfluegers recommended for this type of use also, so comparisons are welcome.

Nate


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## A_Wall (Apr 6, 2011)

For this type of fishing I prefer 4000's reels (personal preference Penn and Shimano). 7' Medium rods, lighter action tips are nice for casting accuracy. When it comes to reels you get what you pay for and since they will be in the rod holder when the fish hits, a reel that costs a little more with a better drag will last longer.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

My medium rods feel overloaded when I use anything bigger than 1/2 oz. My MH feels pretty good with 1 oz, but I have already found that 1 oz will not keep a big bait on the bottom if the tide is really rolling. I had been reading good reviews about the Penn Battles given their price point, but I am open to higher tiers and different brands if there is a significant improvement to be had for the purposes described here. However, I definitely want the "best for the money", not the "best of the best of the best". I hadn't really worried about the drag as I figured I'd have it set so low when in the rack that it wouldn't have a significant impact even if it wasn't perfectly smooth.

Nate


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

I am liking what I am reading about the Diawa BG series. Any experience out there?

Nate


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## jupiter934 (Jan 6, 2013)

Look into the Shimano Baitrunners. They have two drags so you have one set for strike and the other for fighting the fish. I have used them for years...


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I agree, get one with a dual drag system if you can. I have an old cobia real with it and for soaking a bait waiting for a heavier fish it's nice. It's not a requirement, but comes in handy at times.
Assuming you aren't fishing in 100+ft of water, if you can make a longer cast, or let out more line then you can stick closer to bottom with less weight. Think about anchoring.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

We do a fair amount of live/dead bait fishing down here along the coast of the Everglades - and the fish on the other end might be a nice red - a big snook -a monster tarpon- or something in the 300lb range that's not real happy.... The heaviest line on any rig for me is still only 20lb... The rod and reel is the difference between the lighter and heavier setups... My heaviest is on a 7' blank rated for 20 to 40lb line and is paired with an old Penn 7500ss loaded with 20lb mono... My next heaviest rig is also on a 7'blank -this one rated for 15 to 30lb line and is paired to another old Penn - this one a 6500ss loaded with 15lb mono line. Next my lightest live/dead bait rigs are a pair of 7' blanks rated for 12 to 25lb line each with a Daiwa BG20 reel and 20 lb braid (a top shot of 100yds of braid on top of 2/3 of a spool of 12lb mono.... For those preferring braid those two heavier rods would be loaded with 40lb braid, then 30lb for the lighter rig.... (Note: I build all my own rods and want a good stiff rod for mono - for braid I go with the heavier end of the blank rating and actually want a relatively softer blank since the braid has no stretch at all...).

Almost always my live/dead bait rigs end with a rod's length of 80lb mono.... In the dark waters of the 'Glades leader size isn't an issue most days - when it is I'll go down to 60lb mono.... Unlike the way I fished years ago as a recreational.. I long ago quit dropping back to any fish that picks up a live or dead bait -no "free spool" , no "baitrunner" just have the rod in the rodholder in gear with standard fighting drag.... When you set up this way you rarely ever get a deep hooked fish and that rodholder is far better at hooking fish than any angler -whether you're using circles or standard J hooks.... I tell my anglers not to touch the rod unless it's bent over and the drag is screaming.... By the way, using circle hooks and live bait, we solidly hook 8 out of ten tarpon this way (providing a big fish is the biter - small to medium sized tarpon don't hook up well with this setup unless you downsize the baits being used....).


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Many thanks guys. This is very helpful. Despite growing up fishing a lot of live bait, we switched to exclusively fishing artificials once we started fishing salt and I've never put any thought into a livebait rig until now.

I was wondering about the dual drag systems, but I have to admit I like the simplicity of Capt Lemay's technique. One question though; do the rods ever try to jump out of the holders if the drag isn't perfectly smooth (I am beginning to understand what A_Wall was talking about previously). I suspect you take good care of your equipment to avoid such issues, but sh-tuff happens.

I usually fish areas where a 18-20# red or a 30# black drum would be as big as I'd expect to ever see. I guess they have tarpon up here in South Carolina and if I luck into a big one, I'll deal with it and if I luck in to big ones more frequently than I expect, I'll get a bigger rod. I was thinking of a medium heavy Ugly Stik Tiger Elite (3/4-4 oz lure weight) paired with a 4000-4500 size reel. I'd line it with 15-17# mono, but I may top it off with 20# braid.

Nate


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Since I've been repairing reels for many years (worked at the first shop in 1972...) starting at Reef Tackle, 79th St Miami... I have worked on a few baitrunner Shimano reels... In fact the baitrunner feature isn't a "second drag" at all it's simply a means of disengaging the drag while allowing the spool to turn with whatever level of friction you set. The moment the reel is in gear (automatically happens when you turn the handle...) the baitrunner feature is no longer active at all - you're using the single primary drag once the reel in engaged - period...

There are lots of sturdy spinning reels (and a bunch of plug or conventional reels) that will do the job on any live/dead bait rig... Here's how I choose before I ever think about make, model, cost... The first item on the list is reel capacity (nowadays with everyone using braid it's not the big issue it was years ago - but it's still your first consideration....) and for inshore work a medium or heavy reel needs a minimum capacity of 250 yards of the line you're wanting to use... For offshore I'd want a minimum of 350... The next item (and just as important) is whether I can get parts for the reel (since I'm planning on using it hard, I'm going to need access to parts... and since I repair my own gear, some of my heavier reels are well over 30 years old and going strong....). If parts aren't available or hard to find/ hard to get, that make, model is useless as far as I'm concerned (I'm not a collector of anything -my gear has to work or it's gone....). Last is cost - but cost is still an item to be considered - particularly if you're working for a living....

When asked I generally recommend Penn, Daiwa, Shimano, or Quantum reels (although shimano hasn't been living up to their parts obligation very well in my opinion recently....) mainly because each has a solid parts chain....

Almost forgot to mention -the concern about rods "jumping out of rodholders" isn't anything I've ever seen occur (not on the charterboats I worked on years ago -or with any of the flush mounted rodholders -I have four on my old Maverick since it was originally designed as a club boat...) that we've been using for years and years. In my case, I'm in my 21st year as a full time guide... using the same old Maverick skiff that I started with.

What you do have to be careful of are some of the less that secure rodholders that folks like to use on their poling platforms or the rodholders mounted on the surface of center consoles... With the rod down in a flushmount rodholder a big fish on the other end actually makes you work to remove the rod from the holder...


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## jupiter934 (Jan 6, 2013)

lemaymiami said:


> Since I've been repairing reels for many years (worked at the first shop in 1972...) starting at Reef Tackle, 79th St Miami... I have worked on a few baitrunner Shimano reels... In fact the baitrunner feature isn't a "second drag" at all it's simply a means of disengaging the drag while allowing the spool to turn with whatever level of friction you set. The moment the reel is in gear (automatically happens when you turn the handle...) the baitrunner feature is no longer active at all - you're using the single primary drag once the reel in engaged - period...
> 
> There are lots of sturdy spinning reels (and a bunch of plug or conventional reels) that will do the job on any live/dead bait rig... Here's how I choose before I ever think about make, model, cost... The first item on the list is reel capacity (nowadays with everyone using braid it's not the big issue it was years ago - but it's still your first consideration....) and for inshore work a medium or heavy reel needs a minimum capacity of 250 yards of the line you're wanting to use... For offshore I'd want a minimum of 350... The next item (and just as important) is whether I can get parts for the reel (since I'm planning on using it hard, I'm going to need access to parts... and since I repair my own gear, some of my heavier reels are well over 30 years old and going strong....). If parts aren't available or hard to find/ hard to get, that make, model is useless as far as I'm concerned (I'm not a collector of anything -my gear has to work or it's gone....). Last is cost - but cost is still an item to be considered - particularly if you're working for a living....
> 
> ...


So with the baitrunner feature engaged you can adjust the force needed to pull line off the spool correct? Then with the bait runner feature disengaged you can through a completey separate system adjust the force needed to pull line off the spool?


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

One of the reasons I am considering at the Daiwa BG 4500 is the line capacity. It has a good bit more than its peers. It also has a few more bearings than its peers and good product support from what I have read thus far all while being a relatively simple creature from a service perspective. The Daiwa BG4500 (~$100) holds 280 yds. of 17# mono while the Shimano BR 6000D ($150+) holds 260 yd of 12# mono. That dual drag adds a lot of cost.

Being that I am considering an Ugly Stik, I seem to recall that they are a bit softer rod. Can anyone confirm if this is accurate? Based on Capt L's advice, braid might work better if this is true.

My neighbor in Maryland lost a rod when it jumped out of a holder while he was fishing from the shore on the Chesapeake, but knowing him, it was a POS rod and a POS holder and the drag was cranked down. He probably hooked a pretty good striper.

Nate


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I've never had a rod jump out of a rod holder on a boat, even when crushed by wahoo. Now a sand spike is a different story, I've dunked a rod or two that's to sharks.

280yds of 17lbs mono, that's like 500yds of 40lbs braided right. I'm not sure it's enough.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

firecat1981 said:


> 280yds of 17lbs mono, that's like 500yds of 40lbs braided right. I'm not sure it's enough.


Yeah, I'd thought about that and it is kinda ridiculous. I'll probably start with mono though just because it is cheap. If/when I step up to braid, I'll just load 125 yds of braid on top of mono.

Nate


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Ugly Stik will be just fine. Pair it with a reel that will balance the rod and not be too light or too heavy. Brand is inconsequential for the most part on a part time outfit.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

I swung by Academy tonight to see what the Ugly Stiks felt like. Of course they didn't have the model I wanted to see, but I was stunned to find out that an Ugly Stik is a middle of the road bait rod! I thought Ugly Stik was pretty low budget. I found an 8' Shimano MH (3/4-4 oz) bait rod for $14.99! I didn't know Shimano even made a fiberglass bait rod anymore. For that price, I am tempted to see if it is better than unacceptably awful. If it sucks, I could use it to beat other people's children.

Nate


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

When I was young all I used were ugly sticks and they came with lifetime warranties. A few years later they upped the price by 50% and dropped the warranty to 10 years, then 7 years. They cost even more now and I have no idea about the warranty, but the kicker is they are exactly the same as the ones I bought in the early 90's. Still decent rods, but aren't things supposed to get cheaper as the design ages?


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Yeah, I've heard the corp that bought up the Shakespeare brand immediately raised the price of everything across the Ugly Stik line by $10. It seems the rods are the same rods as they used to be, but many of the bait fishermen feel that the price increase makes it harder to justify buying them when better rods only cost $15-20 more. While I believe that might be true for artificial rods, the next higher level of bait rod seems to run over $100.

Nate


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Well don't go by me, I'm ghetto, I buy the cheapest decent thing I can find at wally world, lol. Honestly though, a lot of the price is built into the name, not necessarily the quality, and a snapped rod isn't worth much at the end of the day.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

WhiteDog70810 said:


> Many thanks guys. This is very helpful. Despite growing up fishing a lot of live bait, we switched to exclusively fishing artificials once we started fishing salt and I've never put any thought into a livebait rig until now.
> 
> I was wondering about the dual drag systems, but I have to admit I like the simplicity of Capt Lemay's technique. One question though; do the rods ever try to jump out of the holders if the drag isn't perfectly smooth (I am beginning to understand what A_Wall was talking about previously). I suspect you take good care of your equipment to avoid such issues, but sh-tuff happens.
> 
> ...


Yes go with the Ugly Stick and something that holds 200 yds. Of 30 lb. You'll be fine for a one time trip that happens once a year


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Oh, I'll go more than that once I get going. I'm only 2 hrs from the coast.

Nate


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