# Hells Bay Hull Blistering



## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

I figured I would post this and just see what everyone thinks. Simply to get feedback. 

What does anyone know about Hells Bay boats propensity to blister? 

I will post a picture when I figure out how.

I have read so many different ideas on his subject and it seems all over the board.


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)




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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)




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## formerWAflyfisher (Sep 5, 2008)

Seems very odd. How old is the hull? Also was it left in the water for an extended period of time? Did this just happen after a fishing trip??? Sorry not trying to stir the pot just looking for a little background.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

It is 2012 and boat is in great condition other than this. Was told is did not sit in water and it looks like it did not. I was just curious to get all info I can. Better to have all the resources and be informed as best I can. 

Had some oyster rash but that is the name of the game for shallow water fishing, at least in Texas it is. 

I bought it and am sending to Tom Gordon to completely re-do hull. Other question would be, what are chances this becomes a pain in the butt reoccurring thing?


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## Fishtex (May 10, 2014)

CKEAT said:


> It is 2012 and boat is in great condition other than this. Was told is did not sit in water and it looks like it did not. I was just curious to get all info I can. Better to have all the resources and be informed as best I can.
> 
> Had some oyster rash but that is the name of the game for shallow water fishing, at least in Texas it is.
> 
> I bought it and am sending to Tom Gordon to completely re-do hull. Other question would be, what are chances this becomes a pain in the butt reoccurring thing?


I would call Hells Bay, and get their thoughts, it’s possible the hull has been worked on after it left Hells Bay by someone who did not do a good job....I’d bet money on it.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

I have, spoke with them. I am trying to get feedback without downing anyone or any company. I got the history from hells bay, there was a gash (4”) that the owner called and said he was bringing to fix. He never did. The gash was nowhere near all the blisters though. Should it be a concern that ,posture has invaded the hull and will always be a problem?

I have heard Tom is awesome, I am guessing he would say it will be an issue if he didn’t think he could fix it. 

The hull re-work is expensive so I am hoping it works.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

Moisture not posture


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2019)

Is that Awlgrip or another paint or is that gelcoat? Chances of re occurrence are slim if you are taking to Tom for a restore, he will figure out what caused it. There are many things that can cause the bubbles! If it is a repaint then too fast of a reducer could have started the process from day one, if it’s Awlgrip then a few days in the water could be enough, gelcoat could be poor adhesion, contaminates between gel and glass, moisture, etc...


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2019)

I would be tempted to take a blade to one of them to see what was underneath.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

My guess is they will. The dealer I bought it from (owner was trading in) has been very good to deal with. 

He is driving the boat to Tom for me due to having to go there anyway for other items.


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## PrinceOfTides (Aug 29, 2015)

Very strange I have never seen this on a hull(of any brand). I’m dying to know the storey there. It doesn’t look like any sort of major delamination that would be caused by a gash in the hull.


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## Boneheaded (Oct 4, 2017)

With surfboards, ones you find that have been left in an attic or in direct sunlight can delaminate similarly...probably not the same thing


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## bw510 (Sep 1, 2011)

Man..no wonder this pro was on the market for so long at that low price 
Hope you got a good deal for the blisters


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## bw510 (Sep 1, 2011)

Also maybe it has damage under the keel guard that could have soaked up water??


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

I did get a very good deal. I am in it very good even with Tom Doing a complete revamp on hull. 

I am not worried as long as Tom can fix it right one time. It’s expensive for me to get it to Tom from Texas.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

Boatbrains said:


> I would be tempted to take a blade to one of them to see what was underneath.


Yea, they are rock hard solid. No give, which is kind of strange that they have zero give.


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## Cut Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Looks like awlgrip that sat in the water for too long. Are all the blisters below the waterline?


Boatbrains said:


> Is that Awlgrip or another paint or is that gelcoat? Chances of re occurrence are slim if you are taking to Tom for a restore, he will figure out what caused it. There are many things that can cause the bubbles! If it is a repaint then too fast of a reducer could have started the process from day one, if it’s Awlgrip then a few days in the water could be enough, gelcoat could be poor adhesion, contaminates between gel and glass, moisture, etc...


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

Cut Runner said:


> Looks like awlgrip that sat in the water for too long. Are all the blisters below the waterline?


No they are not and the boat didn’t sit in the water.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

So, is awlgrip not a good product?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2019)

Awlgrip is a great product if applied and used according to the manufacturer! However, it is NOT supposed to sit in the water for more than 2-3 days! This is what we mean by sitting in the water, not like left in the water for months or years on end which would do this to pretty much any paint ir gelcoat.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

Boatbrains said:


> Awlgrip is a great product if applied and used according to the manufacturer! However, it is NOT supposed to sit in the water for more than 2-3 days! This is what we mean by sitting in the water, not like left in the water for months or years on end which would do this to pretty much any paint ir gelcoat.


I own a bay boat that I have taken and sat in water in slips for week at a time, many times. No issues and no gel coat problems at all. Bought it new in 13. Now, I clean and take care of my equipment but 2-3 days a boat can’t handle? That sounds absurd to me. Maybe I am just ignorant


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2019)

CKEAT said:


> I own a bay boat that I have taken and sat in water in slips for week at a time, many times. No issues and no gel coat problems at all. Bought it new in 13. Now, I clean and take care of my equipment but 2-3 days a boat can’t handle? That sounds absurd to me. Maybe I am just ignorant


I was referring to Awlgrip paint. Gelcoat can be in the water longer, but believe me... it will blister and all sorts of other bad things if left too long also!!!


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

Yea, when I see boats in slips all the time it makes me cringe just in cleaning BS to deal with.


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## formerWAflyfisher (Sep 5, 2008)

Gelcoat will definitely blister if left in water even after 2-3 days (it is porous). Not always sometimes it takes longer. Maintanance like waxing will help protect the boat but it Doesn’t matter what brand. Go look on THT or MBGforum and you will see this subject being debated to death. I mean after all it’s a boat it suppose to get wet.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Blistering is a very common problem on bigger boats that live in the water year round. I'll be very interested in whatever the cause is found to be in this case - and whether that hull has the original gelcoat or had been painted at some point.

For bigger boats it's actually routine to go over the hull with a moisture meter to measure the amount of hydration (if that's the correct term) the outer hull coating has allowed to penetrate down into the glass underneath... professional yacht painters have special routines and finishes they use to cope with blistering...


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

My guess is the foam core off gassing from excessive heat causing some minor delam spots. My 01 whip had a couple of them as well. Not sure of the cause, that's just my guess. They were structurally solid, no give whatsoever so I didn't really worry about them.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

lemaymiami said:


> Blistering is a very common problem on bigger boats that live in the water year round. I'll be very interested in whatever the cause is found to be in this case - and whether that hull has the original gelcoat or had been painted at some point.
> 
> For bigger boats it's actually routine to go over the hull with a moisture meter to measure the amount of hydration (if that's the correct term) the outer hull coating has allowed to penetrate down into the glass underneath... professional yacht painters have special routines and finishes they use to cope with blistering...





el9surf said:


> My guess is the foam core off gassing from excessive heat causing some minor delam spots. My 01 whip had a couple of them as well. Not sure of the cause, that's just my guess. They were structurally solid, no give whatsoever so I didn't really worry about them.


That would be what I am hoping isn’t the case. If damage got into core (soaked up moisture), I am guessing it will be pretty tough to stop from re occurring. Not sure how you could dry that resin out and repair. 

I am quite an OCD person, I would prefer it get fixed right if possible. 

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone!


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## formerWAflyfisher (Sep 5, 2008)

Tom will take care of it. I’d trust whatever he says. I’ve had him redo a beat up dolphin hull. Looked brand new when he was finished. Really I wouldn’t worry to much, fiberglass is easily repairable, most anything can be fixed (for the right price).


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

CKEAT said:


> That would be what I am hoping isn’t the case. If damage got into core (soaked up moisture), I am guessing it will be pretty tough to stop from re occurring. Not sure how you could dry that resin out and repair.
> 
> I am quite an OCD person, I would prefer it get fixed right if possible.
> 
> I appreciate all the feedback from everyone!


Just because it has a blister doesn't mean it has soaked up moisture. I wouldn't stress too much. Tom will know how to fix this and it won't be as difficult as you're imagining.


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

lemaymiami said:


> Blistering is a very common problem on bigger boats that live in the water year round. I'll be very interested in whatever the cause is found to be in this case - and whether that hull has the original gelcoat or had been painted at some point.
> 
> For bigger boats it's actually routine to go over the hull with a moisture meter to measure the amount of hydration (if that's the correct term) the outer hull coating has allowed to penetrate down into the glass underneath... professional yacht painters have special routines and finishes they use to cope with blistering...


Yup. Go to any large yard that does media or soda blasting on hull bottoms and you'll see boats with hundreds even thousands of tiny blisters after the blasting is done.

Major profit center for every yard out there.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

Yea, I figure he will get it knocked out. 

I just wanted to get this out there and get thoughts on it as I am not a fiberglass guy and definitely need the education. 

This is one of the good things that comes out of the internet. Being able to put this out there and get some info from folks with experience. 

Many thanks to you all


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

el9surf said:


> My guess is the foam core off gassing from excessive heat causing some minor delam spots. My 01 whip had a couple of them as well. Not sure of the cause, that's just my guess. They were structurally solid, no give whatsoever so I didn't really worry about them.


You are correct el9surf in my exsperince. Cored hulls will get moisture in them if left in the water for long periods, like months. There is no way around this if voids are there. These skiffs have very thin skins. Your 01 skiff which was built under my watch had an outer skin of 3/4 oz. matt, 1-1/2 oz matt. 10oz Kevlar, 1-1/2 oz matt then bonding putty and core. Out gassing of the bit of moisture or such on a very hot day can cause the skin to blister a bit in a weak bonding point when laid up. It’s not structural just cosmetic.
When you park your skiff on it’s trailer on an asphalt parking lot at Walmart on a summers day you are basically cooking your boats hull to the extreme. Sometimes something gives.
Now if the outer skin is not bonded well in places to the core then you get these little voids that can get heated up and blister. They are weak points that get found out in extream heat variations.
If you leave a Naugahyde seat cushion on your stern hatch with lots of wet water under it in the sun for a few days it can creat enough heat and moisture to cause small blisters even in the best quality Gelcoat. The blisters don’t give because they are plenty strong and stiff in 1/4 and 1/2 dollar size blisters. There will be just air under them is my best guess. Plus maybe a bit of sticky resin if not good bonding work.
The challenge to build a very light craft means very thin skins, you have to strive for very good building practices when bonding the core to the outer skin. You then hope your build gets treated well and you did a good job.
To fix those blisters you need to cut them out, re glass the void left and then paint the whole hull or re Gelcoat and sand and buff out. It will look like new. But if there are other little weak spots left the next time the temperature extream is met you will have new pimples.
When I see a Whole hull of them then it was a lousy day in the shop with the crew. It’s good to keep a sheet of who was building and all shop tempts on resin and Gelcoat layed up. It’s good as you can go back and find out more than who worked that day but were the numbers done right. Lots of times it’s comes down to bad batches of resin, putty or Gelcoat. To me it’s imperative to do this to keep on top of suppliers and the crew.
Bottom line is, it’s just cosmetics, your hull is as strong as ever. If it’s a Gelcoat hull that pretty shiny I would just cut out, glass and re Gelcoat each individual blister and not redo the whole hull. Spray a little WD-40 over them and no one will ever notice when at the ramp or gas station.
I wish you well


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that.

Crazy we live in a day that we can post these types of things online and many times, like this time, learn quite a bit along the way.


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## Dajk (Jul 11, 2018)

CKEAT said:


> I figured I would post this and just see what everyone thinks. Simply to get feedback.
> 
> What does anyone know about Hells Bay boats propensity to blister?
> 
> ...


Blisters are caused in the mold, they are hot spots, it is a manufacture defect..


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

Yea and when I called Hells Bay they leaped to blame everything else. Very disappointing on a 60k 17ft boat. Say whatever you want, it’s not good business. 

When I have contacted hatch about any reel item they jump to it and get it fixed instead of looking to blame other items right off the bat. 

Oh and they also talked badly about someone in the industry that is widely known as one of the best. Huge turn off! That’s a no no in my mind. Let your products and customer service do your talking.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

CKEAT said:


> Yea and when I called Hells Bay they leaped to blame everything else. Very disappointing on a 60k 17ft boat. Say whatever you want, it’s not good business.
> 
> When I have contacted hatch about any reel item they jump to it and get it fixed instead of looking to blame other items right off the bat.
> 
> Oh and they also talked badly about someone in the industry that is widely known as one of the best. Huge turn off! That’s a no no in my mind. Let your products and customer service do your talking.


Hull warranties typically apply to the original owner regardless of brand. Did you not see the blisters when you bought the boat? Not saying their response was ideal but any manufacturer has to draw the line somewhere. I doubt the boat came out of the mold like that. They are far too ocd to let a hull go out like that.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

In the context of your post I'm going to guess that they bad mouthed either TG or CM.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

I didn’t say they should just bow to all things customer. What you should not do is hop to blame others and never bad mouth others, it’s petty. Period. 

I did see it and it’s fine, having it fixed and got a great price. All is good. 

It’s a free country, do business how you see fit. That isn’t how I grew up taking care of business. 

I will not at who they bad mouthed because it won’t serve to help anyone involved. Just that it was distasteful.


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## Snookdaddy (Jan 5, 2008)

Hot spots?? By the size of the blisters, it appears that those are from sitting in the water too long.. Delam in manufacturing would more than likely result in different sizes and locations.

We're all of the blisters at or below the waterline or were a bunch above the waterline too?


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## Bluwave (Nov 3, 2014)

There was a blister on the port side of my 2004 HB. The original owner noticed it shortly after taking delivery but it was small, so he took a discount instead of having it repaired.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

Not positive but few are pretty high, seems like above waterline. 

Man, I would for sure not be happy about that at delivery of new hull. Has the look of poor craftsmanship


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

I feel this is a very important topic. As a past builder I can say that during my time at Hells Bay I started a program of writing up a sheet for each individual skiff. What I had Tom Gordon do each day was to make sure each part of the build was recorded. So all deck parts on down to the hull had a sheet of real time info on it and was signed by each person who worked on these parts. What happened was each day all shop tempts were recorded through out the build day, all resins, Gelcoats, putty’s tempts were taken and recorded as they were used. All manufacturers have instructions for each product that shows you the gel times for the quantity and the current temperature for the product and the room it’s in at the time. You have to calculate all these factors in each day and through out the day. So if it’s a winter morning with frost on the grass outside HBBWs inside the building would be one tempt. Then the resin drums would be another tempt. They would need heater bands started up on them to get them up to manufacturers stated tempt. Then the bonding putty buckets, then the gelcoats etc. as the day warmed up things would change so would all the calculations.
Now all this got written down, what we did and who did it. 
I don’t know who does this today, but for me it was imperative once we got to the level of the product we were wanted to sell to the public. You can’t say it’s the best if you are trying your best. A good hull shapes one thing but a skiff that does not last is another thing.
One skiff a Guides boat came back and all the seafoam green hatches were a different shade of green from the deck. He was not happy and neither was I. Out comes the file on his boat. The Gelcoat we were using was from the best company out there. They said it was our fault. We said come see our sheet and our shop.
Once they saw our process and our tempt build sheet they said they would replace the cost of all the hatches and forgive our months Gelcoat bill. It was their product faults.
We gave the Guide a loaner skiff, and built new hatches for him that matched no cost to him.
This system of recording everything has helped in that I could go back and talk to the workers involved. I had a policy that if you made a mistake on something to let me know right away and all was forgiven, the part would be destroyed. But if you knew you had mixed something wrong and tried to hide it, then.... well you were out the door.
Of course I had plenty to deal with. Like when I went to do a test ride in a new skiff and I couldn’t get it off the trailer because it was screwd to the bunk bed by one of the riggers right through the hulls bottom. 
It’s a challenge for sure to train people that are not into building boats but just having a job.
During my time we did not have blister issues. I attribute this to good layup people, good bonding practices and at periods Good Gelcoat and spraying.
I have spoken to a few owners of my past builds that said they had blisters in their decks and hulls. They had them fixed and the only reason they told me was because I ask everyone how their skiff is holding up that I meet in person. I get lots of emails from people that are buying used HB skiffs asking if this or that is ok and so on. If they have the Hull # then I can look it up and see if I remember the original owner and build. So far about 90% I can remember. It’s been fun to catch up on past builds.
If anyone had blisters under my watch at HB I would fix immediately at no cost but fortunately I never had that to deal with.
They are a challenge as explained before, if not built right, then extream heat can bring them out at a later date. Or if the materials are not good it can be a bad combination.
You have to test each part built every day. Use Barcoal hardness testers on glass layups. It’s not easy with thin layups. 
For sure there are bad building practices out there. As builders you have to deal with employee change overs, manufacturers products that are not always performing like stated and sold to you as. You have to watch everything all the time. You have to care about it deeply for your product, reputation and for your buying public.
To me if a recent build comes back to the shop with blemishes that could be attributed to the shop build I would not hesite to correct on my own dime. If the skiff is full of mold, rust and looks well ridden then I would talk it over and say let’s work out something here.
Blisters are builders nightmare as they like cancer can pop up later in a Skiffs life.
Without the build sheet you and the owner of the skiff have nothing to go on.
To my best knowledge all my sheets on the skiffs built during my time at HB have been thrown away.
To bad.


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## Guest (May 6, 2019)

Chris Morejohn said:


> I feel this is a very important topic. As a past builder I can say that during my time at Hells Bay I started a program of writing up a sheet for each individual skiff. What I had Tom Gordon do each day was to make sure each part of the build was recorded. So all deck parts on down to the hull had a sheet of real time info on it and was signed by each person who worked on these parts. What happened was each day all shop tempts were recorded through out the build day, all resins, Gelcoats, putty’s tempts were taken and recorded as they were used. All manufacturers have instructions for each product that shows you the gel times for the quantity and the current temperature for the product and the room it’s in at the time. You have to calculate all these factors in each day and through out the day. So if it’s a winter morning with frost on the grass outside HBBWs inside the building would be one tempt. Then the resin drums would be another tempt. They would need heater bands started up on them to get them up to manufacturers stated tempt. Then the bonding putty buckets, then the gelcoats etc. as the day warmed up things would change so would all the calculations.
> Now all this got written down, what we did and who did it.
> I don’t know who does this today, but for me it was imperative once we got to the level of the product we were wanted to sell to the public. You can’t say it’s the best if you are trying your best. A good hull shapes one thing but a skiff that does not last is another thing.
> One skiff a Guides boat came back and all the seafoam green hatches were a different shade of green from the deck. He was not happy and neither was I. Out comes the file on his boat. The Gelcoat we were using was from the best company out there. They said it was our fault. We said come see our sheet and our shop.
> ...


Chris, I am familiar with the sheets you describe. We always called them travelers and each part had their own traveler right up till’ they were all married together. It’s the best way to keep track of the build throughout the build and later in like you’ve described! Temps, humidity, material’ batch numbers, etc... all get recorded. In one production plant I was at, we were turning out this one particular model from a single tool set daily for over a month, the mold never “cooled off” eventually parts started to actually distort a little even with a high end production mold and heavy steel cribbing. It was determined that we needed a second set of molds so we could alternate daily! This is just an example of it being “our fault” and not the materials or customer’s but also the “travelers” is how we eliminated all the possible causes!


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

Boatbrains said:


> Chris, I am familiar with the sheets you describe. We always called them travelers and each part had their own traveler right up till’ they were all married together. It’s the best way to keep track of the build throughout the build and later in like you’ve described! Temps, humidity, material’ batch numbers, etc... all get recorded. In one production plant I was at, we were turning out this one particular model from a single tool set daily for over a month, the mold never “cooled off” eventually parts started to actually distort a little even with a high end production mold and heavy steel cribbing. It was determined that we needed a second set of molds so we could alternate daily! This is just an example of it being “our fault” and not the materials or customer’s but also the “travelers” is how we eliminated all the possible causes!


Yes, seen that. Blisters will rise after the part comes out of the mold. Not in the mold.
Lots of stress cracks seen are from transfers from the molds. Or when pulling the parts from the molds.
I can go on and on. That why I like one off building. You build it yourself and control it all the way.


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

QC always carried a barcol tester at the manufacturer I worked at for 18 years. It will tell you the hardness of your laminate. A lot of things can be reworked but have something that never fully hardens and you have a mess on your hands. Some resin systems are more forgiving than others. Chris and BB offer sound advice. If I ran a shop everyone catalyzing resin would be thoroughly trained. We had occasional the occasional shade tree chemist in our shop that thought they knew better than the manufacturer on how to promote and catalyze resin, especially when the seasons changed. We were catalyzing 20-30 drums a day, so it could get expensive real fast.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

After reading the last few posts, I think I'll stop complaining about new skiff prices.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Chris,

Your analysis is spot on. If someone has to sign their name they will do a better job and know they can be held accountable.

Having a bunch of people slapping stuff together you end up with a Bayliner.


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## Guest (May 6, 2019)

DuckNut said:


> Chris,
> 
> Your analysis is spot on. If someone has to sign their name they will do a better job and know they can be held accountable.
> 
> Having a bunch of people slapping stuff together you end up with a Bayliner.


LMAO at that last line!


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## Guest (May 6, 2019)

Sublime said:


> View attachment 72864
> QC always carried a barcol tester at the manufacturer I worked at for 18 years. It will tell you the hardness of your laminate. A lot of things can be reworked but have something that never fully hardens and you have a mess on your hands. Some resin systems are more forgiving than others. Chris and BB offer sound advice. If I ran a shop everyone catalyzing resin would be thoroughly trained. We had occasional the occasional shade tree chemist in our shop that thought they knew better than the manufacturer on how to promote and catalyze resin, especially when the seasons changed. We were catalyzing 20-30 drums a day, so it could get expensive real fast.


And at the $4-500 the barcol meter costs, it is about as cheap of an insurance policy as one could buy!


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

Boatbrains said:


> And at the $4-500 the barcol meter costs, it is about as cheap of an insurance policy as one could buy!


Granted, to get to the point you can test a piece, you're already too late if it is bad, but they are good for collecting data and you can always layup coupons for testing.


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## Guest (May 6, 2019)

Sublime said:


> Granted, to get to the point you can test a piece, you're already too late if it is bad, but they are good for collecting data and you can always layup coupons for testing.


True, but sometimes another hr in the mold will get you there... pull it too soon w/out know and you might end up with a hard to the touch limp noodle!


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

well my understanding is that Chris and the crew always signed their names to their work up under the front deck. I climbed in under there on my 2001 waterman (about had a panic attack in there) with a flashlight all eager to see that and the only thing written was the hull ID number ):

Chris must have been too busy with the Hogfish


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

If there was a thread about any other skiff with hull blisters it would struggle to make a page...


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## Guest (May 6, 2019)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> If there was a thread about any other skiff with hull blisters it would struggle to make a page...


Or at least 50 pages on how crappy of a builder they are!


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## Tx_Whipray (Sep 4, 2015)

For what it's worth, my '99 Whipray hull is all original and still smooth as a baby's bottom...except for the oyster rash and other little self inflicted dings.


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## CKEAT (Aug 26, 2015)

For the sake of not continuing this, if anyone wants the whole story. PM me. 

Just hopping Tom can help prevent future issues. All my research points to once they do it it’s a done deal. You live and learn. Lord knows I have learned some less than tasteful lessons.


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