# Stiff action fly rods



## Pierson (Mar 16, 2016)

I, like you started with a TFO pro series. I bought a Sage Motive as my first true 'saltwater rod'. The Motive is a fast action rod but more of a midflex, slower fast action rod if that makes sense. So i had to speed up my stroke a bit but you could still really feel the rod load with a slower stroke which i liked. I then bought the NRX which is a true fast action rod. When i used it for the first time it was honestly disappointing. It did not fit my stroke and my loop was falling apart around 60 feet. Halfway through the day, due to impatience and frustration, i started a cast with an almost comically fast stroke and had my "ah ha!" moment. The faster I threw the rod the more it performed and I was throwing surgical loops into the wind at 80 feet by the end of the day. Left the water with a smile on my face and never looked back. Now all my rods are true fast action rods and I sold the Motive. 
I guess my point is, maybe try a rod like the Motive that is somewhere in between to help develop a faster stroke, or, if you do get a rod like the NRX don't be afraid to throw it fast!


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

I gotcha. My buddy has the motive and isn't very happy with it. He thinks it is too slow for his style casting but given we are both about a year and a half into this. I told him to stick with it before getting a faster rod cause it could be worse than what you have.


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## Pierson (Mar 16, 2016)

I really liked the motive and used it for about a year before switching to the NRX and the Sage ONE. But yes the Motive is definitely a medium fast action and wont cast well with a super fast stroke


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Everybody has a different "style" or taste in a rod. That comes with a lot of variables, like casting techniques, lines used, fish being targeted, conditions..... Etc. The list goes on and on. Personally, I wouldn't be too worried about trying to get a better rod because in the end, it's not going to make your cast better, unless you have years experience under your belt. The thing at this stage of the game, that will help to to cast better is to get you some decent casting lessons. That will improve your casting better than anything at this point. I've been at this saltwater fly fishing thing going on 27yrs now and have owned and fished some of the fastest rods out there and I can tell you that good casting techniques will improve your casting and total fly fishing experience better than any rod will. That's fact! For me, I would be perfectly content fishing that Pro series you have there and doing just as good as the guy next to me fishing whatever expensive rod he happen to be fishing with. So will you, once you dial into that rod.

Know this, every rod has it's sweet spot, based on the right line for that rod, weight of the reel you have on it and your casting style and stroke. Find that and the rod will wake up and do what you want it to do. If you lived near me, I'd help you find that. Otherwise, it just takes some time to find what the rod wants. Just like women. They all have different behaviors and finding which one fits your style and personality is the key to true relationship happiness. Otherwise, take the one you already have and find what she wants to make her happy. Then you'll be good and she'll make you happy!

Whoa!!! I went off on a tangent from the OP there!  Humm.... Fly fishing doctor,/relationship counselor!  LOL 

Go try a TFO Mangrove or a Redington Predator and tell me what you think!


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

Backwater said:


> Everybody has a different "style" or taste in a rod. That comes with a lot of variables, like casting techniques, lines used, fish being targeted, conditions..... Etc. The list goes on and on. Personally, I wouldn't be too worried about trying to get a better rod because in the end, it's not going to make your cast better, unless you have years experience under your belt. The thing at this stage of the game, that will help to to cast better is to get you some decent casting lessons. That will improve your casting better than anything at this point. I've been at this saltwater fly fishing thing going on 27yrs now and have owned and fished some of the fastest rods out there and I can tell you that good casting techniques will improve your casting and total fly fishing experience better than any rod will. That's fact! For me, I would be perfectly content fishing that Pro series you have there and doing just as good as the guy next to me fishing whatever expensive rod he happen to be fishing with. So will you, once you dial into that rod.
> 
> Know this, every rod has it's sweet spot, based on the right line for that rod, weight of the reel you have on it and your casting style and stroke. Find that and the rod will wake up and do what you want it to do. If you lived near me, I'd help you find that. Otherwise, it just takes some time to find what the rod wants. Just like women. They all have different behaviors and finding which one fits your style and personality is the key to true relationship happiness. Otherwise, take the one you already have and find what she wants to make her happy. Then you'll be good and she'll make you happy!
> 
> ...


I appreciate the advice and I think that's my plan now that I've got some awesome feedback. I appreciate it.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

One other small pebble into the pond.... Nothing substitutes for actual time on the water with fly rod in hand - to get the most out of your abilities (at whatever stage of the game you're at...).

I see a fair number of fly anglers that are disappointed with their performance on the water -and if you ask about the last time they had a rod in hand you quickly learn why....


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

lemaymiami said:


> One other small pebble into the pond.... Nothing substitutes for actual time on the water with fly rod in hand - to get the most out of your abilities (at whatever stage of the game you're at...).
> 
> I see a fair number of fly anglers that are disappointed with their performance on the water -and if you ask about the last time they had a rod in hand you quickly learn why....


Good point!


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## hferrell87 (Jan 28, 2013)

I own a few NRX 8 wts. (Pro 1 & 4 piece) and wasn't too sure in the beginning, but once I matched the right line (Bonefish taper), it effortlessly was casting 75' without even trying. It's a dream to throw now and will never look back!


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## redjim (Oct 16, 2012)

Backwater said:


> Everybody has a different "style" or taste in a rod. That comes with a lot of variables, like casting techniques, lines used, fish being targeted, conditions..... Etc. The list goes on and on. Personally, I wouldn't be too worried about trying to get a better rod because in the end, it's not going to make your cast better, unless you have years experience under your belt. The thing at this stage of the game, that will help to to cast better is to get you some decent casting lessons. That will improve your casting better than anything at this point. I've been at this saltwater fly fishing thing going on 27yrs now and have owned and fished some of the fastest rods out there and I can tell you that good casting techniques will improve your casting and total fly fishing experience better than any rod will. That's fact! For me, I would be perfectly content fishing that Pro series you have there and doing just as good as the guy next to me fishing whatever expensive rod he happen to be fishing with. So will you, once you dial into that rod.
> 
> Know this, every rod has it's sweet spot, based on the right line for that rod, weight of the reel you have on it and your casting style and stroke. Find that and the rod will wake up and do what you want it to do. If you lived near me, I'd help you find that. Otherwise, it just takes some time to find what the rod wants. Just like women. They all have different behaviors and finding which one fits your style and personality is the key to true relationship happiness. Otherwise, take the one you already have and find what she wants to make her happy. Then you'll be good and she'll make you happy!
> 
> ...


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

@Backwater hit the nail on the head. It's the Indian not the arrow. A strong, smooth, well timed double haul will make all the difference in those faster rods.


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

Yeah I think I'm gonna wait until I break down and get one. @LowHydrogen I'll cast yours as soon as we can get on the water together! haha


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

DeepSouthFly said:


> Yeah I think I'm gonna wait until I break down and get one. @LowHydrogen I'll cast yours as soon as we can get on the water together! haha


I don't own any super high dollar rods in that weight range, but I do own a few pretty fast, great casting rods. I've got a TFO Axiom and a rod built on a Batson blank that are in the weight range you're looking in, and both are pretty dang fast. Also have a Cabela's RLS+ that is more moderate. You can cast them all and yours back to back and it'll help you really feel the difference as you speed up in action. The Axiom will absolutely bomb a fly line out there, but the Batson was cut down to 8'6", is more accurate and loads a bit quicker up close so it's my go-to Redfish rod for around here. If you want tendonitis we'll break out the Xi2 12wt.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

If you are going to cast all day you will appreciate a rod that is even less than one ounce lighter. Plus the feel is better with lighter rods. Also NRX rods are very strong, so if you tap them on something hard they are less likely to fracture. BVK rods cast on par with NRX, but they are easier to break and the guides are not as durable. You better take two BVK's on a trip that takes you far from home.


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

You can have a lot of fun with a budget rod if you quit worrying about having the latest and greatest gear. I used to fish a 5wt browning graphite rod for baby snook and tarpon and it was sloooow. It flexed all the way down into the handle on long cast. I had an absolute blast with that rod off of US 41. I also owned Sage rods at the time and I still used that old cheap rod because it was fun and challenging.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

I have anglers of varying abilities in my boats. To cope with that, I always have at least two different action rods. One medium fast, and one fast. The medium fast allows a novice or intermediate angler to get the job done without being frustrated. Trying to get someone hooked on fly fishing, who has spent years conventional fishing, is difficult if they are going to get frustrated early into the process. Make it easy for them, then when they can't break 60' introduce advanced casting styles and fast rods. I've converted a few friends this way. The TFO Mangrove is a great accessible rod for nearly any fish and condition. It is a "gateway drug" rod that will allow aspiring angler to learn the mechanics without losing patience.

Now I've never cast the Winston Boron Jungle rods, but I am a HUGE Winston fan. They control 90% of my arsenal of over 15 rods. But, I am not sold on species-specific rods. A good all around rod will get the job done. If you want a rod that can load quickly and it good at close in shots, get a short-taper fly line and pair it with a standard salt water rod, like the Boron III Plus. And I fished for peacocks in the Amazon jungle - I primarily threw a 6 weight with Wulff Bermuda Triangle Taper. Peacocks hit hard, but pretty much give up part way through the battle. We weren't targeting the large species (20+ pounders) but ran into some guys that did. They said the same thing - the eat was great, but the fight was not. Now they did brag about the Golden Dorado fishing, which I have not yet done. Said that fish doesn't give up at all.


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

I gotcha. Do you think my SA mastery grand slam is a little too heavy for my TFO Pro series? I love that line and I cast fine with it but sometimes I feel like I need a lighter grain wt line. Like it kinda feels like its weighing the rod down. I would think that line would be perfect for the Boron III plus, which I plan on getting that rod in the future, not the jungle. Those Winston rods are beautiful. @coconutgroves


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

The sa mastery grand slam is nearly a full line weight heavy, so it wouldn't be my choice for a moderate action rod. I love it on the meridian (which I imagine means I'd love it on the nrx, perhaps the Winston too but I've not cast one) but that's a pretty fast rod. 

I'm curious what line you were using where you tested the nrx and the Winston. as you're seeing the line can and will play with the performance and feel of a given rod. If you can, assuming it wasn't what you used, go try those rods again using your grand slam line. See if that makes a difference for you. 

All that being said there's no guarantee you'll want a super stiff fast rod as you gain experience, or ever. There's no rule here other than you simply must enjoy casting and fishing whatever you choose. The advice about working with a casting instructor is gold, as is the advice about practice. enjoy the ride!


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

tailwalk said:


> The sa mastery grand slam is nearly a full line weight heavy, so it wouldn't be my choice for a moderate action rod. I love it on the meridian (which I imagine means I'd love it on the nrx, perhaps the Winston too but I've not cast one) but that's a pretty fast rod.
> 
> I'm curious what line you were using where you tested the nrx and the Winston. as you're seeing the line can and will play with the performance and feel of a given rod. If you can, assuming it wasn't what you used, go try those rods again using your grand slam line. See if that makes a difference for you.
> 
> All that being said there's no guarantee you'll want a super stiff fast rod as you gain experience, or ever. There's no rule here other than you simply must enjoy casting and fishing whatever you choose. The advice about working with a casting instructor is gold, as is the advice about practice. enjoy the ride!


I was casting the rio bonefish. I had the rio redfish on before I got the SA and it is still heavier than the SA as far as grain wt with that SA being a shooting line. I practiced some last night and I'm clearing 60 ft quick and easy, minimal false casts, but if I try to stretch it farther than that it gets tough, that's where I feel like the stiff rod would help out, and correct me if I'm wrong. And it could be just me also. It does feel heavy but I do cast it well I feel like. The SA grand slam is 235 grain wt. If I went with the Cortland guide that is a 225 grain wt would there be much difference with that rod?


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## Flatsaholic (Apr 28, 2016)

I own a TFO Mangrove 8wt. It was my first fly rod and I love it. Its stiffer then other rods I have thrown and that works for me. I do not like real flexible slow rods. I am able to get the line out quick with the Mangrove.

A good friend of mine has the TFO Pro Series that you have. You will tell a difference between the rods. That rod is a lot slower in my opinion compared to my Mangrove. Like everyone is saying its all about preference. I have thrown quite a few rods and my favorite are the Hardys. Get with people and throw as many as you can to find what you like.


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

Flatsaholic said:


> I own a TFO Mangrove 8wt. It was my first fly rod and I love it. Its stiffer then other rods I have thrown and that works for me. I do not like real flexible slow rods. I am able to get the line out quick with the Mangrove.
> 
> A good friend of mine has the TFO Pro Series that you have. You will tell a difference between the rods. That rod is a lot slower in my opinion compared to my Mangrove. Like everyone is saying its all about preference. I have thrown quite a few rods and my favorite are the Hardys. Get with people and throw as many as you can to find what you like.


From what I've seen on the shoot outs people said they didn't like the mangrove. Which that being said my rod wasn't even on the list. lol I like TFO all together though. I need to cast a mangrove. How does it compare to the BVK? My cousin has a BVK so I could prolly use it when I want.


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## Pierson (Mar 16, 2016)

I haven't owned the Mangrove but I have thrown one and I used to own the BVK. The Mangrove is designed to be a great all around rod, that is strong, has a slightly slower action (which is why the shootout guys didn't like it), and will be natural for anyone to throw practical distances (20-60 feet). A great rod for guides to carry for clients of all skill levels. The BVK is a lighter (and more fragile) fast action rod that is capable of hitting the further distances (80-100) but has less lift for fighting fish. This rod suits a more advanced double-haul fast action stroke, where as the mangrove is meant for any skill level. At least that was my take on them. Both great rods, just made for different applications.


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

The bonefish line is a long head good for carrying a lot of line in the air. i imagine i would like that line best of all you mentioned on the tfo pro. That redfish in 8 is more like a 10-11. Definitely not what id pick for the pro. Cortland guide is 1/2 a line heavy, close to the sa you already have. I thought about trying it but stuck with the grand slam cause I didn't think it would make that big a difference. Can you try the bonefish line on your tfo pro?


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

I might could next time I go up there but it's 2 hours away. Only time we go up to b ham is to visit my wife's folks. 
OK quick questions, so if I did go with the Cortland, would I have to make more false casts to get the line out with it being lighter grain wt? Will it shoot like that Grand slam I have? 
With a slower rod, am I looking for a longer headed line rather than a heavier shorter headed line?


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## Flatsaholic (Apr 28, 2016)

The Mangrove is also not designed for a shoot out. It is designed to have a shorter back cast. I can hit about 60ft maybe 65ft with the SA Redfish Taper, but that is it. I do not see anyone hitting 70-80ft. It is not designed to do that. It is a good mangrove/shore line fly rod. Your not going to have to hit 70+ft in this applications for reds, trout, and snook.


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

Flatsaholic said:


> The Mangrove is also not designed for a shoot out. It is designed to have a shorter back cast. I can hit about 60ft maybe 65ft with the SA Redfish Taper, but that is it. I do not see anyone hitting 70-80ft. It is not designed to do that. It is a good mangrove/shore line fly rod. Your not going to have to hit 70+ft in this applications for reds, trout, and snook.


I agree.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Flatsaholic said:


> The Mangrove is also not designed for a shoot out. It is designed to have a shorter back cast. I can hit about 60ft maybe 65ft with the SA Redfish Taper, but that is it. I do not see anyone hitting 70-80ft. It is not designed to do that. It is a good mangrove/shore line fly rod. Your not going to have to hit 70+ft in this applications for reds, trout, and snook.


If your change your flyline, then it's possible to throw further. But it's still not an 80+ft rod, no matter what you put on it. But it's a gem to cast along the mangroves with!


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## Tyroper (Apr 2, 2019)

Everything in fly fishing is timing, and feel. With more experience you should be able to adapt to get the most out of any rod’s action. On a fairly calm day you should be able to reach 80ft fairly easy with the mangrove, it will be with less authority than say a BVK action and throw some wind in the mix and it will become a chore.


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## prinjm6 (May 13, 2015)

Backwater said:


> Everybody has a different "style" or taste in a rod. That comes with a lot of variables, like casting techniques, lines used, fish being targeted, conditions..... Etc. The list goes on and on. Personally, I wouldn't be too worried about trying to get a better rod because in the end, it's not going to make your cast better, unless you have years experience under your belt. The thing at this stage of the game, that will help to to cast better is to get you some decent casting lessons. That will improve your casting better than anything at this point. I've been at this saltwater fly fishing thing going on 27yrs now and have owned and fished some of the fastest rods out there and I can tell you that good casting techniques will improve your casting and total fly fishing experience better than any rod will. That's fact! For me, I would be perfectly content fishing that Pro series you have there and doing just as good as the guy next to me fishing whatever expensive rod he happen to be fishing with. So will you, once you dial into that rod.
> 
> Know this, every rod has it's sweet spot, based on the right line for that rod, weight of the reel you have on it and your casting style and stroke. Find that and the rod will wake up and do what you want it to do. If you lived near me, I'd help you find that. Otherwise, it just takes some time to find what the rod wants. Just like women. They all have different behaviors and finding which one fits your style and personality is the key to true relationship happiness. Otherwise, take the one you already have and find what she wants to make her happy. Then you'll be good and she'll make you happy!
> 
> ...


I agree on trying both the Mangrove and Predator, the Predator I have is a client/friend rod and has been great to have when a client who brings his $900 XF rod but can load it to cast worth a damn.


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## numbskull (Jan 30, 2019)

DeepSouthFly said:


> . I practiced some last night and I'm clearing 60 ft quick and easy, minimal false casts, but if I try to stretch it farther than that it gets tough, that's where I feel like the stiff rod would help out, and correct me if I'm wrong.


You're wrong.
I've been there and done that........and wasted plenty of years and money before realizing it. 
Listen to Backwater. Before spending money on another rod learn to cast better. 

Any rod should throw more than 60 feet easily. If you are finding it tough to get past that it is because of flaws in your casting stroke......not the rod. Worse still, a stiffer rod is likely going to hold you back. With bad technique one can indeed throw a crappy cast a little further with a stiffer rod ( it bends less so it is a longer lever and reacts less to badly applied force). Unfortunately, that fools us into thinking we are improving as casters when we are not. Rather, we are just reinforcing bad habits, and reinforcing the misconception that we can solve our problems with yet another new rod. 

If you can't drive a nail straight a different hammer is not going to help. Learning to swing a hammer will.


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## DeepSouthFly (Sep 7, 2016)

Yeah that was a year ago.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

DeepSouthFly said:


> I might could next time I go up there but it's 2 hours away. Only time we go up to b ham is to visit my wife's folks.
> OK quick questions, so if I did go with the Cortland, would I have to make more false casts to get the line out with it being lighter grain wt? Will it shoot like that Grand slam I have?
> With a slower rod, am I looking for a longer headed line rather than a heavier shorter headed line?


If you are wanting a Cortland line look at the flats taper, it has a longer head than the guide and is true to weight. Otherwise a bonefish taper should help in comparison to the shorter heavier head lines. Depending on how agressive your double haul is it that can change how many false cast you need to make your shot. Lots of variables in play. Technique will trump everything but depending on your equipment setup it can also work against you. You may have a line labled 8 wt but by grain weight it really should be a 9 or possibly a 10. Combine that with a slower 8 wt rod and you could be way over lined.

In general if you have a slower rod paired with a heavy line like a redfish or grand slam you will have a tough time carrying line. Most newer folks tend to make way too many false cast as well which leads to your loop collapsing on itself, especially with a short heavy line.


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## A.vulpes (Nov 15, 2017)

No need to spend big bucks. It’s the archer, not the arrow. You want a fast blank? Try out the TFO BVK.


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