# Splicing backing?



## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

So on the Hatch vs. Nautilus thread a couple people mentioned using hollow-core material for backing and splicing it. Specifically with the Toro Tamer and the PowerPro HollowAce.

Just looking for more info on how this is done.


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## sjm1580 (Jan 11, 2014)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> So on the Hatch vs. Nautilus thread a couple people mentioned using hollow-core material for backing and splicing it. Specifically with the Toro Tamer and the PowerPro HollowAce.
> 
> Just looking for more info on how this is done.


The first thing you need to do is figure out what size material you are going to use and then get the corresponding size rigging needle(s). The link from Toro Tamer shows how to do it better than I can certainly describe. It might take a little practice but makes great splices, loops etc.. Good luck, it is a really clean way of rigging and the Toro Tamer 16 strand is a great product (I'm sure there are many other good ones too).

http://www.torotamer.com/toro_tamer_RIGGING.htm


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

sjm1580 said:


> The first thing you need to do is figure out what size material you are going to use and then get the corresponding size rigging needle(s). The link from Toro Tamer shows how to do it better than I can certainly describe. It might take a little practice but makes great splices, loops etc.. Good luck, it is a really clean way of rigging and the Toro Tamer 16 strand is a great product (I'm sure there are many other good ones too).
> 
> http://www.torotamer.com/toro_tamer_RIGGING.htm



You just need a daho splicing needle, they can be found on charkbait.com
It's super easy. I always double the reccomended lengths for splicing.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Here is another one to splice the loop in the backing and ditch the bimini. You can use a piece of 10 lb mono in place of the wire. Other people use a latch needle but it isn't necessary.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

You can splice the end of the fly line into the hollow braid and with all the knots above and have a completely knotless system in place. 

If you want to have the ability to chage lines you can just splice a loop into the back of the fly line. 

The splices have near 100% breaking strength so you don't have to worry about anything failing if done correctly.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> You can splice the end of the fly line into the hollow braid and with all the knots above and have a completely knotless system in place.
> 
> If you want to have the ability to chage lines you can just splice a loop into the back of the fly line.
> 
> The splices have near 100% breaking strength so you don't have to worry about anything failing if done correctly.



Shew... Seems like a lotta work!

A drawl back I see is quickly changing out lines, though it's easier to have spare spools for that.

I guess you run the splice up the end of your flyline a couple of feet (2-3ft) and cinch it down like a chinese thumb trap device. Then glue about a 1/2 inch at the beginning (the end up the fly line).

Just seems like a loop to loop with a bimini is easier (with the loop on the bimini being overside to help swap out fly lines). I've not had one fail on me yet. But yes I can feel it when it get's ripped off the spool, for sure.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

Backwater said:


> Shew... Seems like a lotta work!
> 
> Just seems like a loop to loop with a bimini is easier (with the loop on the bimini being overside to help swap out fly lines). I've not had one fail on me yet. But yes I can feel it when it get's ripped off the spool, for sure.


I'm with you BW.

Shame on CB for selling me one of those Chinese handcuff splice thingamajigs a few years ago that I had to cut off to change lines. Shame on me if I ever buy another one.


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## sjm1580 (Jan 11, 2014)

Backwater said:


> Shew... Seems like a lotta work!
> 
> A drawl back I see is quickly changing out lines, though it's easier to have spare spools for that.
> 
> ...


Not a lot of work at all, if it's to much for you, one could also tie just tie a bimini or whatever, but sort of defeats the purpose of using hollow core. Clean way to rig.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

It may look difficult, but I can splice 2 lines together, or splice a loop in about 2 minutes. It makes the transition a lot smoother, no knots passing through the guides at all. 

As for changing lines it can be done. You run the fly line into the hollow, I go about 8ft. Use a couple of blood knots up top with spectra and glue and then whip finish over them. On the back end if you want to have the ability to change just splice a loop in the hollow ace and make the loop to loop connection with the backing. 

You can use that loop in the backing the same as a bimini with the pre welded loops on the buttt of the fly line. I usually do that with 9 wt and under. 10 wt and up I usually use a more permanent connection assuming I found a line that pairs well with the rod.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Most of my reels have a color change in the backing so I have an idea of how much line I have out. That color change is a knotless splice and with near 100% breaking strength I'm confident it wont ever fail. You would never feel that transition going through the guides. I suppose you could just sharpie the backing as well but what fun is there with that?


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

How does that hollow core compare to regular dacron in terms of diameter (ie- amount of backing you can put on your reel) or biting into itself and binding up (like braid or gel-spun can)?


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## sjm1580 (Jan 11, 2014)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> How does that hollow core compare to regular dacron in terms of diameter (ie- amount of backing you can put on your reel) or biting into itself and binding up (like braid or gel-spun can)?


For me it works out to about the equivalent yardage of going from 30lb gel spun to 50lb hollow core braid.

For me personally, I have not had any binding issues using Toro Tamer. I Like It!


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

They don't actually list diameters for the hollow ace, but 20lb dacron is close to 40 lb hollow ace, while 30 lb dacron is close to 60 lb hollow ace in diameter. You might be able to get an extra 10% of backing on when using 40ha in place of 20 and 60 in place of 30. 

I used 40 lb HA on my 8 and 9 & 10 wt reels. 11 wt and up have 60 lb HA. It lays flat, doesn't dig into itself like gel spun or a solid braid. I'm sure it could still cut you, but not anything like a round braid or gel spun. I don't think it is any more likely to cut than dacron because it lays flat.

It's also wax impregnated, so it doesn't retain moisture against the spool or mold the way dacron does.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

For what its worth I won't rig any of my saltwater reels with anything but a hollow braid going forward. In my eyes it's far superior. 
Dacron is not very abrasion resistant should it get wrapped up on something. The braided spectra is considerably stronger in that situation.


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## sjm1580 (Jan 11, 2014)

el9surf said:


> For what its worth I won't rig any of my saltwater reels with anything but a hollow braid going forward. In my eyes it's far superior.
> Dacron is not very abrasion resistant should it get wrapped up on something. The braided spectra is considerably stronger in that situation.


You and me both.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

MariettaMike said:


> I'm with you BW.
> 
> Shame on CB for selling me one of those Chinese handcuff splice thingamajigs a few years ago that I had to cut off to change lines. Shame on me if I ever buy another one.


Sorry for not getting enough caffeine this morning. Who is CB?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> For what its worth I won't rig any of my saltwater reels with anything but a hollow braid going forward. In my eyes it's far superior.
> Dacron is not very abrasion resistant should it get wrapped up on something. The braided spectra is considerably stronger in that situation.


I think only the 1st few reels I've ever own I used dacron. But After I bought a spool of Cortland's Micron, I switched over. It's a thinner diameter and smoother. Then they came out with Micronite, which is even thinner than Micron. Not as thing as gel spun or spectra (or micro dyeema) but will not cut you like they do, or not as bad anyway.

I use Spiderwire Invibraid, and Ultra Braid on my spinning rods which I've found is ultra smooth and wind knot resistant. (He uses spinning gear??? The crowd gasps to find he's not a purist!  ) Anywho, the diameter is too thin to use as backing in my experience and going up to heavy lb test to compensate is just expensive and down right redundant. For anything under a 9wt inshore, why do I need more than 200yrds of backing and more than 20lb test? I don't! Same thing with my bigger reels (Except for a 15wt I tolled around for a lil while) I haven't busted any fish (even any big fish) off with 30lb backing. Never even broke the backing on either. It's either leader, tippet or I had a nick in the fly line once that broke a line in that spot, but never in the backing.

Still, it's not out of the question for me to step up and use a little more lb test, but doubling it just to get the diameter close is not so appealing to me. I am however interested in the idea that the hollow core lays flat and could help keep it from binding into the reel and also for the splicing factor.

el9surf, my problem is with Power Pro in the original stuff cuts like a band saw. How is the Hollow Core any different? Yes I read it has 16 strains of spectra. It's in interesting thought. What's the difference between this Toro Tamer and the Hollow Ace or others?

el9surf (what's that mean btw?), why do an 8ft splice and then a bloodknot. Isn't an 8ft splice redundant and the bloodknot defeating the purpose of having a seamless knotless splice?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Btw, I love Sharpies! Ha!


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Hollow ace and regular power pro are nothing alike. Power pro braid, or for that matter any other solid strand braid will literally cut your finger off. The HA feels and acts like a smoother version of dacron. It is a hollow tube that is completely smooth. As I understand it the toro tamer is a similar construction as the HA. 

When it is stacked on itself the tube structure flattens out, the hollow collapses sideways, same when it runs against your finger. Instead of having a radius edge running against your finger you have a dull flat edge.

I don't use it for the lb test, whether I'm at 30 lb dacron or 60 lb HA both are way above my tippet breaking strength. I don't consider the gain in lb test much of an advantage and that's not why I'm using it.I can get a little more capacity with the HA because it lays flat. Because of the increased test and the fact that it is braided spectra fibers you do gain more abrasion resistance. This isn't necessarily a reason to switch but it is a nice benefit.

Regarding the blood knot you mentioned I have no idea where you got that idea. If you splice the back of the fly line into the HA backing the entire backing and fly line are seamless. You won't have any knots or loops passing through the guides till you get to the leader into the guides.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Maybe your are referring to the serve. When you thread the fly line into the braid you have to serve the end of the braid so it doesn't unravel or slip on the fly line. I use a nail knot with a smaller braid to do the serve. I guess it is a knot but its sunken into the fly line and not noticable at all.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

Backwater said:


> Sorry for not getting enough caffeine this morning. Who is CB?


CB is the initials of a former employee at an outfitter that charged me $20 to splice a new 9wt line directly to the backing on a new reel I was buying. Unfortunately my 9wt rod tip broke while on that October trip from getting hit with a lead eyed Merkin while casting. So I bought a new 10wt rod and line to use while the 9wt went back to for warranty repair. When I went to change lines and found that splice I had to cut that splice out and put in a Bimini loop to put on the new 10 wt line.

I remember Bill Horn, writer of "Seasons on the Flats" just happened to be at the motel while I was doing this to back-up my conclusion that the splice thing was more trouble than it was worth.

Shameless plug for Bill's book, because you might not notice the changes that occur through the seasons down there without someone pointing them out. I'm always amazed at how many ducks I see in October, and this past fall the number of peregrine falcons and hawks was incredible. We picked up a little bird flipping around in the water that had only one tail feather left after a falcon attack. The little guy stood in the sun on the jump seat for over 30 minutes while we poled around chasing juvi tarpon. And then he was gone without a sound, or either of us seeing him leave.

http://www.amazon.com/Seasons-Flats-Anglers-Year-Florida/dp/0811701174


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Whatever happened to CB? That guy was awesome. I learned a lot from him over the years.

As for changing lines if you know how to splice it's not an issue. Just cut the backing a few feet from the end of the fly line. Take that tag end and you can splice it back into the backing in 2 minutes. With 100% breaking strength the new splice won't matter and you won't be able to tell it's there. Splicing lines together is incredibly easy. You can also do it with dacron.

Or you can put a loop splice at the butt end of the fly line and a loop splice at the front of the backing and keep the loop to loop connection.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

el9surf said:


> Whatever happened to CB? That guy was awesome. I learned a lot from him over the years.
> 
> As for changing lines if you know how to splice it's not an issue. Just cut the backing a few feet from the end of the fly line. Take that tag end and you can splice it back into the backing in 2 minutes. With 100% breaking strength the new splice won't matter and you won't be able to tell it's there. Splicing lines together is incredibly easy. You can also do it with dacron.
> 
> Or you can put a loop splice at the butt end of the fly line and a loop splice at the front of the backing and keep the loop to loop connection.


So if I'm using the Toro Tamer or the Hollow Ace I just use the threading needle to open up the hollow core and thread a couple feet of the back end of my fly line into the hollow core. Then use something like Zap-a-Gap or the Loon UV Knot Sense to sort of meld the end of the hollow bit and then secure it with a couple nail-knots along the spliced length?


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> So if I'm using the Toro Tamer or the Hollow Ace I just use the threading needle to open up the hollow core and thread a couple feet of the back end of my fly line into the hollow core. Then use something like Zap-a-Gap or the Loon UV Knot Sense to sort of meld the end of the hollow bit and then secure it with a couple nail-knots along the spliced length?


Yes use the needle or a piece of bent in half 15 lb mono. Needle works easier but I use mono quite a bit.
Use it to open up the hollow, then thread the butt of the fly line up 8ft. Scuff up the fly line butt section with some sand paper to rough up the finish before inserting. Once up 8ft pinch the end of the hollow ace and fly line together and slide your fingers down the hollow ace and fly line working the ha back closed. You are working out any loose areas of the hollow ace to ensure a tight Chinese trap against the fly line.

One or 2 nail knots at 8 ft up right at the edge of where the fly line goes into the opening of the hollow ace. You can use regular braid or mono for the nail. I use 10 lb mono or 30-40 lb braid that i have lying around. Dont use the hollow stuff for thr nail knot. You want it to be compact. Coat that knot with pliobond, super glue or knot sense and you are done. You can also do some quick wraps with a bobbin and thread to cover the loose ends if you want, or you can trim them prior to coating with glue.

If you want the line to be removable cut the backing giving yourself 3-4 ft to work with. Then splice a loop at the back end. Sounds like a lot but it takes 5 min to do everything.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> Maybe your are referring to the serve. When you thread the fly line into the braid you have to serve the end of the braid so it doesn't unravel or slip on the fly line. I use a nail knot with a smaller braid to do the serve. I guess it is a knot but its sunken into the fly line and not noticeable at all.


Ok that clarifies it. Interesting! Tell me, on your lighter rods, why wouldn't you use 30lb instead of 40. And on your bigger rods, 40-50 instead of 60?


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

You certainly could without any issue. I chose to try and match up the diameters of the line as similar to 20 and 30 lb dacron because I knew the backing capacity of my reels which is measured based on 20 or 30 lb dacron.

If you go down in diameter you have to put more line to retain the diameter of the arbor which is more expensive.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

el9surf said:


> You certainly could without any issue. I chose to try and match up the diameters of the line as similar to 20 and 30 lb dacron because I knew the backing capacity of my reels which is measured based on 20 or 30 lb dacron.
> 
> If you go down in diameter you have to put more line to retain the diameter of the arbor which is more expensive.


Yes it is more expensive. Best way to combat that is to buy big bulk spools. To me the big plus using fine diameter backing is that your spool diameter stays large give you a faster retrieve rate.


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## sjm1580 (Jan 11, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> Yes it is more expensive. Best way to combat that is to buy big bulk spools. To me the big plus using fine diameter backing is that your spool diameter stays large give you a faster retrieve rate.


When I switched I bought a 1500 yd spool which saved a bit. The stuff is pricey, but we'll worth it Inn my opinion.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

It's expensive to put this stuff on, big spool or not. I didn't see the point in doubling my cost, I have 250+ yards on all my reels. If you go too small you run the risk of a backing that will cut you and that wasn't something I was interested in. It would keep the arbor larger for longer but in my opinion the tradeoff in cost for a temporary marginally larger arbor on my already large arbor reel isn't worth it. Just my opinion though.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I bought several 500 yd spools in different colors. I have a color change when I'm down to 100 yards on every reel.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> I bought several 500 yd spools in different colors. I have a color change when I'm down to 100 yards on every reel.


And what knot are you using, if any to piece the 2 colored lines together? Are you splicing them too?

Btw, I use to use colored backing. But the dye on the backing would bleed into all my clear lines. I hate that! So I went back to white. But I did like the chartreuse yellow backing against the gold reels back in the day when that was in (the fad back then). Btw, I'm not into fads anymore and can care less about some of these crazy colored reesl because that's the new style. If your into that, then that's good for you. But not me. Just sayin..... 

Anyway, I do like a color change at the end of the backing, to let me know I need to crank up the boat and go chase it. I normally do a bloodknot for that with a drop of superglue. It's not much to go through the guides but just enough "bump" to cause you to look down at your reel to see where you are. But interested in hearing if you splice it or not (knot). 

I guess it would be nice to have more than 300yrds of backing on my big tarpon rods without going to some ginormous reel. So some backing that lays flat that can give me more on the spool and a few more seconds to react has some interest to me. *Quick story.* About 10 yrs ago, a buddy of mine and I were staged up at a little honey hole at the mouth of Tampa Bay and we had the boat tied up with a throw rope. It was a good morning. We had hooked 6 poons, lost 2 and the biggest fish we chased down the shoreline (unfortunately with a ball of weeds on his line, which sucks!) and managed to land a fish that went a buck forty five. So we went back to the rope, tied up to try for one more before the weather rolled in. It was my turn and I never realized that we could pull one more fish out of there and it would be my "holy grail of tarpon." Bottom line, I was spooled by a fish we estimated was at the 200lb class. She ate about 30ft from the bow, no jumps, just torpedoed right at the boat (the wake looked just like a torpedo for sure and will a wide back too. It brought me back to my submariner days, back in the day when I was in the Navy. ). Anyways, she swept by the boat, barely missing it by inches, from bow to stern (her back out of the water), so close, she almost hit the boat (literally), and if I tried, I coulda reached out and touched her. So we both had a real good look at her. As she kicked it into high gear and shot out behind us, with my drag cranked down and pulling as hard as I could and my left palm of my hand burning from palming the spool tight, before we could get the boat un-tied from the throw rope and turned around to chase her, the 300yrds of 30lb screaming line was gone.  All was lost, my line, my heart and my pride. We sat there in shock for nearly an hour before the storm drove us home.  I've been a humble man ever since. 

I've been eye ballin a new spot over the past few years and I'm shooting for my bucketlist 200lb fish over the next few years. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows! But the fun is in the "trying." So I'm over prepping 2 rods for that, but trying to keep it all within IGFA rules if possible. Don't need a record, but would love to break that 2/0 number on fly and do it legit. 

I'm a firm believer that success (at least in that area) is the sum total of all the little things you do right. The more you make improvements in those little things, the better your chances are! 

Ted Haas


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> And what knot are you using, if any to piece the 2 colored lines together? Are you splicing them too?
> 
> Btw, I use to use colored backing. But the dye on the backing would bleed into all my clear lines. I hate that! So I went back to white. But I did like the chartreuse yellow backing against the gold reels back in the day when that was in (the fad back then). Btw, I'm not into fads anymore and can care less about some of these crazy colored reesl because that's the new style. If your into that, then that's good for you. But not me. Just sayin.....
> 
> ...


Color change is spliced. That's the point of using the hollow, zero knots.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> Color change is spliced. That's the point of using the hollow, zero knots.


Why the 8ft splice on the fly line?


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> Why the 8ft splice on the fly line?


Probably could be 4ft or shorter on my lighter rods, its the Chinese finger trap effect that locks it down. I went 8ft on my tarpon rod just to make sure it's bomb proof. Whether it's 8 ft up or 4 ft up it all goes through the guides the same, might as well go 8 ft.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Here is a youtube channel that will address most of the connections you can do with the hollow line. You might have to scroll to find the connection you need.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVFipEX0pvTyUfOwzX7cpMw?feature=watch


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> Here is a youtube channel that will address most of the connections you can do with the hollow line. You might have to scroll to find the connection you need.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVFipEX0pvTyUfOwzX7cpMw?feature=watch


Yeaull...


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## TheFrequentFlier (Feb 17, 2016)

Backwater said:


> Just seems like a loop to loop with a bimini is easier (with the loop on the bimini being overside to help swap out fly lines). I've not had one fail on me yet. But yes I can feel it when it get's ripped off the spool, for sure.


This method has never failed me. A good bimini in the backing with a loop in the back of the fly line for easy swapping.


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