# What if fly shops went away?



## jboriol (Jan 2, 2010)

Watched this video and it made me think what a shame it would be if we only had online fly shops. I've seen quite a few go out over the past few years. I'm the first to get excited when I find a close out deal online because the equipment is normally so expensive. But I really enjoy stop at a fly shop wherever I am to talk fishing and get ready for the next trip. Sometimes I'll be having a bad week and just stop in for the good vibes it brings! The video was a good reminder to support the local guys or they won't survive.


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## Rick hambric (Jun 24, 2017)

It would be sad, then on the other hand the few who would stay open it's a b&m would increase their business. People like to deal with people. Put your hands on it, cast it, see what the new tying materials actually look like and most important to me is the relationships you build in the community.


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## eightwt (May 11, 2017)

It would be a shame. Lucky are those that have one close to them. The secret to catching fish is knowledge, not fancy boats, duds, or equipment, but know how. That's the gem that shops provide with their information and hub of social interaction. Just my two cents...


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

I buy as much as I reasonably can from my local shop. I have known the owner for almost 40 years. But when it comes to a big purchase like a new rod or reel I almost always do it online. Its just the only feasible way from a budget standpoint.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Even a city as large as Houston can barely support a fly shop. Bayou City Angler is a great little shop with great people and a complimentary brew but Gordy and Sons opened this year and may take some business with a casting pond. Hopefully there is enough business for both shops.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

eightwt said:


> It would be a shame. Lucky are those that have one close to them. The secret to catching fish is knowledge, not fancy boats, duds, or equipment, but know how. That's the gem that shops provide with their information and hub of social interaction. Just my two cents...


It would be a shame. But I doubt it would impact most guys fishing much. There is just so much information available online now that I just don't think the data you obtain from a fly shop is that much more valuable than you can easily get elsewhere. The one impact I do see is for a brand new guy just getting into fly fishing and has moved to a new area. He doesn't know anybody and a local shop is a great place to shop.

Now its way more fun to swing by my local shop and talk to the guys than it is to get some intel online but its really not much more valuable.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

I buy all my fly fishing equipment from American fly shops with American people working in them that had American people sell the equipment and materials to them, that had American people make the equipment where I can.

Please support:
The Fish Hawk, Atlanta, GA
Florida Keys Outfitters, Islamorada, FL
Orlando Outfitters, Orlando FL.

Ass Pro, CabelAss, SierrAss trading, all suck the life out of America.

Trump recently tweeted that Amazon was taking away many jobs from America. Within minutes there were many responses stating Amazon has been charging sales tax for years. Totally missed the point. I guess we should all move to Ruskin, FL. You can't fix stupid.

Fishing is a learning process to be enjoyed as you go. It is NOT an instant gratification process where you catch a fish within 5 minutes of running WOT to a spot.

Took me 10 minutes to revive this fish, and another 10 to make sure the dolphins didn't eat him.

But I digress, the real question is if people like me can teach people to value their neighbor more than a communist China laborer to keep those shops from closing.

American Lives Matter!

PS: I'm drinking Tito's.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

I'm one of those guys who collects hats and shirts from different fly shops...actually spent a little money at Tailwater Outfitters (Palm Harbor) yesterday after the heat chased me off the water. I needed hooks for the fly swap and some materials for baby poon flies since Poonfecta is fast approaching.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

ifsteve said:


> It would be a shame. But I doubt it would impact most guys fishing much.....


BULL SHIT!


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

MariettaMike said:


> BULL SHIT!


Why don't you tell me how you really feel? LOL


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

MariettaMike said:


> View attachment 14787
> View attachment 14788
> I buy all my fly fishing equipment from American fly shops with American people working in them that had American people sell the equipment and materials to them, that had American people make the equipment where I can.
> 
> ...


I buy American made as much as I can but that has nothing to do with a local fly shop. Other than perhaps some locally tied flies they don't carry any different products than the big stores do. A Sage rod bought from Cabelas is the exact same Sage rod brought from Joe's Fly shop and they are both made in the USA. A Brand X rod from Cabela's is the same Brand X rod sold in Joe's and they both are made overseas.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

ifsteve said:


> I buy American made as much as I can but that has nothing to do with a local fly shop. Other than perhaps some locally tied flies they don't carry any different products than the big stores do. A Sage rod bought from Cabelas is the exact same Sage rod brought from Joe's Fly shop and they are both made in the USA. A Brand X rod from Cabela's is the same Brand X rod sold in Joe's and they both are made overseas.


You are correct in you observations about Sage, BUT Ass Pro and CabelASS put their Communist labor products right next to Sage products and their sales staff are trained to say they are made at the same factory, and THAT is NOT correct.


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## eightwt (May 11, 2017)

ifsteve said:


> There is just so much information available online now that I just don't think the data you obtain from a fly shop is that much more valuable than you can easily get elsewhere.





ifsteve said:


> A Sage rod bought from Cabelas is the exact same Sage rod brought from Joe's Fly shop and they are both made in the USA.


Typical transactions:

Big Box. You go looking for someone to help you since there is no one in the fly fishing area. Find someone selling a battery in the marine dept. They tell you someone will help you in a few. 10 minutes later the guy who knows spinning reels shows up but doesn't know much about that new tropical fly line you read about in last nights blog. You make your purchase.

On line. You click a few buttons and cough up your credit card.

Local fly shop. Joe is manning the fort while Fred is tying at the bench and working on some fly's for a customer order. Joe explains why that new tropical line may be good for you or perhaps recommends something that might fit you better with the rod you use. Might even get to cast a rigged rod sitting in the corner. While you're thinking about your options you wander over to Fred hard at work. He tells you this pattern has been highly successful for slaying'em over at the local fishing hole. Explains best way to tie the pattern. In walks Old Fish Eyed Sam. Has just got back from Deep Water Slough. Thinks have been heating up there on the outgoing. Seems that a number of guys are going to be there next weekend. Plans are made to meet up. You decide on the line and purchase. On the way out Joe mentions that the Acme sales rep will be in town hosted by the shop and you will have the opportunity to cast the new lineup of rods. Mark the date on your phone. Head home with your line and several new materials for the bench. 

Guess which one I prefer


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2017)

ifsteve said:


> I buy as much as I reasonably can from my local shop. I have known the owner for almost 40 years. But when it comes to a big purchase like a new rod or reel I almost always do it online. Its just the only feasible way from a budget standpoint.


IF, it is a shame that you don't make your larger purchases at the same shop you support when you buy the small stuff. Where do you go when your tailing loops are killing your cast, your bimini's just are twisted properly, or your patterns seem to scare the hell out of a redfish? It never ceases to amaze me how some guys buy gear from out of state [or mail order] and then have no problem asking for advice on patterns or locations. Please rethink your strategy, can your mail order houses give you any of the valuable advice that I've mentioned?


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2017)

ifsteve said:


> It would be a shame. But I doubt it would impact most guys fishing much. There is just so much information available online now that I just don't think the data you obtain from a fly shop is that much more valuable than you can easily get elsewhere. The one impact I do see is for a brand new guy just getting into fly fishing and has moved to a new area. He doesn't know anybody and a local shop is a great place to shop.
> 
> Now its way more fun to swing by my local shop and talk to the guys than it is to get some intel online but its really not much more valuable.


If, I really can't disagree more with your comment about the intel from the shop not being of any more value than online info. Our shop has guides out on several of our local waters every day of the year reporting on conditions, patterns, etc. Some of the better you-tube videos are really not much more than great videos of people catching fish with no real intel.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2017)

eightwt said:


> Typical transactions:
> 
> Big Box. You go looking for someone to help you since there is no one in the fly fishing area. Find someone selling a battery in the marine dept. They tell you someone will help you in a few. 10 minutes later the guy who knows spinning reels shows up but doesn't know much about that new tropical fly line you read about in last nights blog. You make your purchase.
> 
> ...


8wt., I love it. I'm gonna start calling you "10 wt." [just kidding! Great post!]


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

ifsteve said:


> I buy American made as much as I can but that has nothing to do with a local fly shop. Other than perhaps some locally tied flies they don't carry any different products than the big stores do. A Sage rod bought from Cabelas is the exact same Sage rod brought from Joe's Fly shop and they are both made in the USA. A Brand X rod from Cabela's is the same Brand X rod sold in Joe's and they both are made overseas.


Well my good man, you may like to argue as much as I do. Not sure about which fly shops you have visited, but must not be so good. You can not buy high quality, made in USA fly tackle in Cabela's, Bass Pro, Academy, etc. I have bought a few used reels and one rod off the classifieds but the rest of my gear I buy where I can try it out.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Well this is entertaining....

So honest question. Lets say you are looking for a certain rod. You have fished with them before and know that it is what you are looking for for your application. So you can go to town and buy that rod today (well if they have it in stock) for $850. Or you can look around on line and find the same rod in new or as new condition for $600. Are you really buying it locally?


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2017)

ifsteve said:


> Well this is entertaining....
> 
> So honest question. Lets say you are looking for a certain rod. You have fished with them before and know that it is what you are looking for for your application. So you can go to town and buy that rod today (well if they have it in stock) for $850. Or you can look around on line and find the same rod in new or as new condition for $600. Are you really buying it locally?


 if,remember one thing, warranties may not transfer on the used gear


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

ifsteve said:


> Well this is entertaining....
> 
> So honest question. Lets say you are looking for a certain rod. You have fished with them before and know that it is what you are looking for for your application. So you can go to town and buy that rod today (well if they have it in stock) for $850. Or you can look around on line and find the same rod in new or as new condition for $600. Are you really buying it locally?


After owning a Fly Shop a bunch of years ago, I know the easiest way to lose a premium rod, reel or line manufacturer is to discount their product. Any quality product maker protects their dealers and does not allow for discounting. 

The only reason a high end rod would be discounted is if it's a demo or a discontinued model.

Buy local.


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## MatthewAbbott (Feb 25, 2017)

The last rod I bought was online because no one carries it around me. The rod before that I bought at a "big box store" because the salesman let me cast his personal rod and then put his reel on the two rods I was looking at to compare them.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

I enjoy the personal interaction with the fine folks in the small shops. But their days are numbered.

There is little profit margin on the items. Buy a package of hooks for $6 and how long can the shop owner burn the lights for. How about a $3 package of xxx. The margin on a $600 rod is not that great either, the manufacturer makes good money, the shop owner gets screwed.

The fixed cost go up every year and too many people are simply looking at the price, not the venue. It is pretty certain they will be gone someday. Now there may the the one rarity that makes it for the next 20 years so you better buy more hooks than you need to help them out. One of the reasons you don't find the Made in America stuff at the big box stores is because the exact reason I gave above. Low profit margin equates to going out of business sale. Just the way it is.

15 years ago, which of you would have thought Kmart and Sears would disappear?

You may disagree with the notion but ifsteve is right. So many of the users on here are looking for their next rods - right here on the web and not in the store. It is reality and fly shops are not the only casualty in sight. So in order to stave off the inevitable, Stop selling your used gear and just throw it away. Then people will have to buy new equipment from their local shops.


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

I just bought a new Nautilus from Lehrs Economy Tackle in North Fort Myers, great people, I have been buying tackle from them for 30 years. Support your local shops when ever you can.


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## rakeel (Apr 9, 2014)

sjrobin said:


> Even a city as large as Houston can barely support a fly shop. Bayou City Angler is a great little shop with great people and a complimentary brew but Gordy and Sons opened this year and may take some business with a casting pond. Hopefully there is enough business for both shops.


Don't forget competition with FTU and Orvis as well. Trouble is all of those other shops have diversified businesses whereas BCA is only fly fishing. It's what makes it awesome though. I live on the West side of town and drive out of my way to go to BCA. Stacy and the guys at BCA are awesome. They've really invested in building a community at that shop with the informationals and demos they host. It kills me they don't have a larger selection of tying materials bc I'd buy all of my stuff from there if they did, but as of now I end of shopping at FTU or Ole Florida Fly Shop for that. I will be ordering a Tibor from BCA later this year though. 

I also really really hope Gordy and Sons doesn't take too much of their business. Gordy and Sons has a lot more financial backing and of course the store is just way fancier with the casting pond. They're both great shops but I still root for the little guy in BCA. I just feel they cater so much more to the every day fly angler where the vibe at Gordy and Sons is that it's more geared towards the wealthier community (not saying that's true). I really hope BCA can make it in the long run and not go the way of iFly.


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## mwong61 (Jul 28, 2013)

I try to support my local shop (Orlando Outfitters) as much as I can. I'm personal friends with the owner and his family, but even if we weren't friends I'd still support the shop.

Having said that, I like a good bargain when they come along as well.
Sometimes those bargains make the difference between whether I can buy a piece of gear or not.

So for me personally, my rule of thumb is if I'm going to be paying retail for a given item anyway that the local shop carries (Scott, Gloomis rods, Nautilus reels, etc). I'll buy it locally from TJ. (I shudder to think how much money I've spent over the years there)

But I've also scored some nice kit over the years shopping the online closeouts for Sage and Hardy rods which I've bought from Sierra Trading post, Trident, FlyShack, etc.

I don't tie a TON of flies, and I'm usually good with the 5 or 6 patterns that work for me. So I stop in the shop a couple times of years to pick up fly tying supplies and such.


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## redjim (Oct 16, 2012)

TJ is one heck of a caster as well!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Steve_Mevers said:


> I just bought a new Nautilus from Lehrs Economy Tackle in North Fort Myers, great people, I have been buying tackle from them for 30 years. Support your local shops when ever you can.


Steve, I use to go there when I was a kid and you and I are the same age, if that tells you anything.


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## Barbs_deep (Jul 4, 2010)

I try to buy local as much as I can but it gets really frustrating when you make trips to multiple different fly shops and the materials section is lacking in all of them. I find myself doing more online ordering simply due to them not having what I need.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

MatthewAbbott said:


> *The last rod I bought was online because no one carries it around me. *


Yeah...gotta be careful about that though...I was really intrigued by the Hardy Zephrus line of rods. Noone carries them here in the Tampa area and I didn't know anyone who had one. So I waited and waited and waited until finally I got a chance to throw one at Oyster Creek Outfitters in St Augustine. When I finally got a chance to cast it live on the water near their shop, I hated it. I am SO glad I didn't order one online before casting it.


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

Part of the solution is for shops to stay current with the market. Bear's Den has a massive selection, excellent advice, great international shipping, indoor casting area, tying nights during the winter, fishing nights during the summer. Trident will match online retailers (I think). Streams of Dreams will send me rods to cast and I can return the ones I don't want to buy. Yellowstone has a wonderful shootout (with results to be treated as gospel). Capefish Co has a summer long tourney and online forum. First Light Anglers (RIP) had a great online forum.

Now, my local fly shop is an Orvis in a mall and I have the option to buy an H2 or an H2. The guy working last time I was there didn't know what an E.P. baitfish was. I go in because it's my only option but I can spend hours in a real fly shop. I just hope the good ones stick around by branching into new parts of the market if necessary.

Also, I think there is a time and a place for the big box stores. Lots of regions aren't covered with good fly shops and a big box is the only option. For a new guy or a young kid it might be the best value. I'd rather have kids hooked on fly fishing than anything else. With all that said, I am big into buying as local as possible. Reels from the east coast, rods from Mass, boots from the US, etc.


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## Rick hambric (Jun 24, 2017)

For those that have a local shop, you don't realize how lucky you are. The closest place for me is 2hrs away and getting to cast a rod there is a miracle. The better shops are 3-3.5hrs away from me. It's probably a good thing they're that far or else I'd be absolutely broke!!! I keep looking for rehab from this, but there's none around!


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Here's where I think fly shops are headed.
1. Those in a fly fishing heavy area will continue to have a place in the market. As long as they maintain inventory and have knowledgeable friendly employees. Places like here in Idaho Falls, the Keys, etc.
2. Those in less than traditional fly fishing areas will continue to either go out of business or modify their business to be multi faceted (like the new shop in Houston).

Nobody wants to see a local business go under (whether its fly fishing or anything else). Its just an unfortunate affect of "progress." So I agree with the general premise of support your local fly shop. And I do but it can only be to a point where its still fiscally doable.


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## Griff0302 (Oct 22, 2016)

I have stacks of crap that I bought online or in big box stores only to later figure out it wasn't the right gear for what I needed. Sure you might be able to save some money on a particular transaction but in the end I've bought a lot of garbage by trying to save a buck. When I go to a fly shop I get the right stuff and collectively save myself the money and hassle. This is a lesson I keep having to relearn. I bow hunt and made the same mistake there - bought a bow from BPS. After 3 months I shit canned it and bought a Hoyt and had a local shop set me up to the nines. I consider the money I spent at BPS an ill-informed decision. Plus I've stumbled on a lot of good advice, good friends and good times at fly shops.


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## Tailer (Jan 10, 2017)

It really depends on the shop. If you like your shop, the service is good, and you want to be able to continue to visit, patronize it. If you don't like your shop or the service isn't good you don't have any obligation to shop there. I have a shop a few minutes down the road from my house, but I spend my money at two shops a few hours away. Better service, better selection, better attitudes.

The idea that a fly shop is the keeper and distributor of some exclusive knowledge that will make you a better fisherman is laughable.


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## jboriol (Jan 2, 2010)

ifsteve said:


> Here's where I think fly shops are headed.
> 1. Those in a fly fishing heavy area will continue to have a place in the market. As long as they maintain inventory and have knowledgeable friendly employees. Places like here in Idaho Falls, the Keys, etc.
> 2. Those in less than traditional fly fishing areas will continue to either go out of business or modify their business to be multi faceted (like the new shop in Houston).
> 
> Nobody wants to see a local business go under (whether its fly fishing or anything else). Its just an unfortunate affect of "progress." So I agree with the general premise of support your local fly shop. And I do but it can only be to a point where its still fiscally doable.


I agree, and would submit that the importance of understanding the fly fishing culture across multiple generations is the key. Programming with social/educational events to connect with people, pass along the storied past and offer tips to make the sport more enjoyable and rewarding are priceless and are missing from the big box guys. There is clearly a $ value associated with treatment and service to those that appreciate it. If everything were about price the Ritz Carlton, and other highly regarded service organizations would cease to exist because I can get a hotel room is just as nice as any Ritz Carlton for way less.

The stores that get that, master service, and hire knowledgeable (actual fishing 411 and gear) sales people who are passionate to the point that it's contagious will survive. 
There is more to fly fishing than, specs, price and branding hype...it's the "feeling" you get when you imagine the possibilities, the destinations and the history. And, the treatment your receive during the transaction or in the event you need help after the sale. When I step foot in a great fly shop my mind goes into overload, that just does not happen with the click of a mouse.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Much of the issue with fly shops is that they just don't make a lot of money. So they tend to hire younger people who are energetic about the sport but they simply don't have the history or knowledge to provide much value to those who have been in the game for awhile. Its just hard to maintain top folks in the shop. Shoot most of my buddies who work in shops do so mostly for the pro staff deals they can get.
1. They move onto other careers where they can make a decent living.
2. They move on to guiding where they make way more than working in shops.

I worked in one of the most famous fly shops there is and it was an incredible experience and I learned more that summer fishing with THE guys than I could have in years otherwise. But it isn't near as glamorous as it sounds either. Long days. Few days off. And you are always working when the fishing is good. But there was no way in the world I could have chosen that as a career path. A job just isn't about the money but it also has to provide some kind of a life.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Tailer said:


> The idea that a fly shop is the keeper and distributor of some exclusive knowledge that will make you a better fisherman is laughable.


Well...that's not absolutely true or false. A good fly shop provides an opportunity to become a better fisherman, if you know how to recognize and take advantage of it...


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

I got my first job in a tackle shop a bunch of years ago (1972, Reef Tackle, 79th st Miami) and have worked as a fly tyer for quite a few fly shops over the years (most long gone today.... the first shop I ever tied for was back in 1979, Shorelines South when John Donnell was running it before he turned to guiding and other pursuits). I quit tying commercially a year or two ago and don't know if I'll ever tie commercially ever again - but who knows? I've filled orders for shops as far away as Boston on the east coast and one shop way out in Oregon over the years (at times I was filling orders for three shops at the same time....) and learned over time just what was involved in the "biz"...

Back around 1995 when I was planning on opening my own shop (I was getting an early retirement off of a long term job and wanted to get back into fishing in some form...) Chico Fernandez was kind enough to sit me down with paper and pencil and show me the figures I'd be facing as far as initial investment, inventory, long term prospects, etc. To put it mildly owning a fly shop (or other similar tackle shop with high end gear and lots of custom services...) was hardly a winning proposition then -and nothing's gotten better for retailing in the fishing arena. To have any chance of success I'd have to completely give up fishing -and not take a penny out of the business for the first three years.... If I was lucky and worked hard after those first three years I could expect to have bought myself a six day a week job - but every penny invested would always be at risk.... The good news is that then and now you can make your entire overhead each month - just selling t-shirts....

Thank heavens for Chico's advice - I went back to school, got my captain's license and have been guiding full time since the winter of 1996... and still filling orders for flies, lures, etc up until just recently... I'm still in the lure making business but I've slowed down on the fly tying - getting older I guess...

As Chico said, we can make a small fortune in the tackle business -first we'll start with a large fortune....

One business news type says that these days we're in the "retail ice age" and that pretty much says it all. If you have a local fly shop - support them if you can. Remember that your small purchases at your local shop keep them running - but the cream in retailing are the high ticket items. Today most are perfectly comfortable handling the shiny toys at a shop but then buy them on-line where it's definitely cheaper.... Not being able to count on the cream has sent more than one shop into the dumper - and the process will continue.

The end result will be fewer shops and that's a shame since all the knowledge in our sport resides there... I can't tell you how much I learned over the years from one shop or another - but like I've said - most are long gone....


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

lemaymiami said:


> One business news type says that these days we're in the "retail ice age" and that pretty much says it all.


My in-laws are shuttering a music shop they've owned and operated for almost 30 years.

Luckily they made it to retirement age just in time. The last few years they struggled with people who shopped at their store and then bought on line. Or people who bought crap online and then brought it to the shop to be set up, tuned, or repaired. Luckily they've always had a steady stream of instructors and students that use their teaching rooms or else they'd have closed up even earlier.

I would have to imagine that running a fly shop would be similar.


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## MatthewAbbott (Feb 25, 2017)

crboggs said:


> Yeah...gotta be careful about that though...I was really intrigued by the Hardy Zephrus line of rods. Noone carries them here in the Tampa area and I didn't know anyone who had one. So I waited and waited and waited until finally I got a chance to throw one at Oyster Creek Outfitters in St Augustine. When I finally got a chance to cast it live on the water near their shop, I hated it. I am SO glad I didn't order one online before casting it.


 I agree. 100 percent


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

I opened and owned a shop for 7 years on the coast in the Northeast during the rock-n-roll years of fly fishing popularity (1992-1999): "A River Runs Through It", "Walkers Cay Chronicles", "Fly Fishing in Salt Waters Magazine", Orvis expansion, Maverick/Hewes/Hells Bay/ActionCraft back orders etc. Back then, you had to kiss the manufacturer reps asses to get product lines like SAGE, G Loomis, Abel, Islander, Charlton, SA Mastery and others. Fly Fishing was the fastest growing recreational sector in the country.

In order to draw customers, you had to have close to $75k - $100k in inventory on the walls to make the shop look full. If you expected to survive based on the number of fly rods and reels you sold...you would have starved. The majority of customers would come in, play with a couple reels, wiggle some rods, chew your ear off for 30 minutes about how much they knew and then leave with a $9 Bucktail or a $3.99 magazine. Others would come in and want to cast as many rods as they could in a hour (we were on the water so you could cast behind the store). You had to be very patient and very tolerant of all the bs artists that came thru the door....most of whom could not cast 30' of line on a good day. I was very lucky that I had a great club nearby that had 125+ serious saltwater fly anglers and they helped to make the job fun.

Biggest challenge and the 1 item I think killed most of the shops back then was the "Lifetime Guarantee" initiated by the rod and reel companies. The rods companies had to offer it to remain competitive vs the next rod company. A guy would come in, buy a SAGE RPL-X or a Loomis GLX, break the tip section in a car door 6 months later and get a free replacement. Shop got $0 and the guy had a rod for life. All the top reels were beginning to be machined from aluminum with very close tolerances & very few failures. A traditional tackle shop survives on bait, hooks, lures and spooling line on reels. In a Fly Shop, a serious fly tyer could buy $25 worth of materials and create dozens of flies that will last an entire season if not longer. I still have nightmares thinking of my 30' long wall of tying materials packed with hundreds of sku's....a good number gathering dust.

The two things that enabled the shop to survive were #1. Soft goods (t-shirts, Embroidered Hats, Sweat shirts, Jackets) and #2. Fishing Charters. I had 2 Captains working out of the shop and the clients that booked charters were the ones who later came in and bought lots of gear. Considering the cost of the boats, insurance and the Captains cut, I doubt I made any profit but it gave me hope it could work.

Words of advice for all out there that are consumers of fly fishing products. If you have a local shop that you like - GIVE HIM YOUR BUSINESS! Be aware of the fact that he is trying to make a living doing something he loves and he has a lot invested in trying to get you thru his door and get you to open your wallet. 9 shops out of 10, the owner is awake at night trying to figure out how many more months he can make his shop rent payment. He is agonizing over the number of un-sold rod rods he has in his rack and wondering how he is going to move last years supply of fly lines that are now obsolete since "new improved" lines are being released. If you're out of town and stop by a new shop, buy a hat or a t-shirt...it matters.

Would I do it again if I had the chance? Probably not. I did have a lot of great experiences and made friends with guys like Lefty Kreh, Flip Pallot, Chico Fernandez, Jose Wejebe, Gary Loomis, Steve Abel and many more. I got to fish with some legendary guides and visit some cool, off the grid spots. Most of all, it gave me a true appreciation of the men and women that hang a fly shop shingle and are able to survive in a very challenging and ever shrinking retail market.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Well said.... and all too accurate.


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## jboriol (Jan 2, 2010)

Great stories and insights...


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Similar to politics, we get who /what we vote or don't vote for. Vote with $$$(short term) or best for our neighbors long term.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Here's a question for the just buy it at the local shop side of things, even for high end items. Do you sell your stuff on here or other websites? If so how is that any different than the guy who buys it from someplace besides the local shop?


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

Net 30 said:


> I opened and owned a shop for 7 years on the coast in the Northeast during the rock-n-roll years of fly fishing popularity (1992-1999): "A River Runs Through It", "Walkers Cay Chronicles", "Fly Fishing in Salt Waters Magazine", Orvis expansion, Maverick/Hewes/Hells Bay/ActionCraft back orders etc. Back then, you had to kiss the manufacturer reps asses to get product lines like SAGE, G Loomis, Abel, Islander, Charlton, SA Mastery and others. Fly Fishing was the fastest growing recreational sector in the country.
> 
> In order to draw customers, you had to have close to $75k - $100k in inventory on the walls to make the shop look full. If you expected to survive based on the number of fly rods and reels you sold...you would have starved. The majority of customers would come in, play with a couple reels, wiggle some rods, chew your ear off for 30 minutes about how much they knew and then leave with a $9 Bucktail or a $3.99 magazine. Others would come in and want to cast as many rods as they could in a hour (we were on the water so you could cast behind the store). You had to be very patient and very tolerant of all the bs artists that came thru the door....most of whom could not cast 30' of line on a good day. I was very lucky that I had a great club nearby that had 125+ serious saltwater fly anglers and they helped to make the job fun.
> 
> ...


A couple of years ago all my fly rods except one went missing after a move. The one that didn't get "lost" was a 7wt which I had bought for steelhead. After one trip I decided steelhead are for me. I decided to sell it to offset a bit of the cost of replacing my inventory. I couldn't get rid of this damn thing so I called a shop in Idaho where I bought some of my rods to see it they would take it in trade. They did and that worked out fine.

Your post got me thinking that taking trade-ins is a way that local shops could better compete with on-line and big box retailers. That would a) help speed up new inventory turn-over and b) provide a point of sale for used rods where the buyer can actually touch and feel the used rod before he buys.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2017)

ifsteve said:


> Here's a question for the just buy it at the local shop side of things, even for high end items. Do you sell your stuff on here or other websites? If so how is that any different than the guy who buys it from someplace besides the local shop?


I think that there's a bit of a difference between selling new gear vs. used. Most shops will be reluctant to sell used gear as they won't
reasonably be able to verify the gear's history. For that reason, I can't condemn the guy that sells used gear either here or somewhere else.


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

Backwater said:


> Steve, I use to go there when I was a kid and you and I are the same age, if that tells you anything.


Yep, I was a about 26 the first time I met Dave Westra, he is still in the shop everyday.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Mike certainly that is the case. But if somebody buys a rod off a internet site, even used, that keeps him from buying in his local shop. The point is that its just not as easy as saying to just buy in your local shop.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2017)

ifsteve said:


> Mike certainly that is the case. But if somebody buys a rod off a internet site, even used, that keeps him from buying in his local shop. The point is that its just not as easy as saying to just buy in your local shop.


You are right, I guess there are some out there that no longer have a "local shop". In that case there's only one solution and that is to buy off the internet.


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Fly fishing stores are realizing this, and they must adapt to the times or get left behind. For example, if I can't get something from my local shop, I'll go to ole Floridas site and get free shipping to my door. Even if you have to order online, it's still possible to support a "local" shop.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

I bought this bait cast setup from a fly shop that had it on their unadvertised, NOT onliine consignment rack. Not bad for $100. Like riding a bicycle.


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## TheUglyFly (Mar 8, 2017)

Our local shop is a fly/inshore/offshore tackle shop. The majority of the business is fly/inshore related.

The owner has started a weekly tying night to develop a core group of customers. If an item is stocked in the shop, I will purchase it there. If it cannot be reasonably attained through the shop, I will look elsewhere.

I get an outing once a week to be with like minded people to lie about fishing and enjoy a cold beer (or 7). 

Things like this are what make me want to keep my money and time local.

In addition to that, on all of my travels with work, I've made it a point to find a local fly shop and stop in. For me, it is always fun to compare and contrast the similarities of our fisheries and communities. With a shop t-Shirt and things I 'need' in hand, I have some new friends and a new boat ramp to come visit in the future. 

If fly shops were to go the way of the cassette tape, my wife would have to put up with me being home a lot more. 

Because of that, I'm fairly certain the fly shop as we know it will survive.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Yup...I am collecting hats and shirts from fly shops myself. My Oyster Creek Outfitters hat has some serious mojo. Its become my go to when fishing. *lol*


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## Palma Sola (Jun 5, 2016)

Buy local has been my motto!
I do that for my vegetables and food products too if possible. I told my fly shop about all the Sage close outs online and he was willing to do the same deal. Every year Sage says they build the best rod then closes it out for their new model.. I'm over Sage..
Relationships matter to me .. so that's what I encourage my friends to follow.


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## JamesMB (Sep 4, 2016)

So I worked in a fly shop for around 10 years, as a fishing guide before, and now as a rep. 

I'll say this to someone's face, not just bully someone online and then cower like a little girl when I see them face to face...

If you're not supporting your local flyshop, buying your rods/reels online after stopping in your local shop to "try it out", sucking them for info then ordering flies off www.cheapshit.com...then you are the lowest of the low and should just stop fishing, walk to the end of a large cliff, and jump. 

There would be no difference if fly shops went away...yeah, I guess ole ifsteve showed his true colors. Good work sir, your local fly shop hates you and so do I (mainly because I just cannot abide ignorance). Guess you have a line winding machine, are an expert at everything, and are one of those online jackoffs who think they're the big guy in the room because you spend more time on the computer than on the water. Congrats on actually getting me on here to make a comment and you sir are exactly what is wrong with the internet and this industry today. 

Support your local flyshop guys. Like Mike said, you can't put a price on knowledge. 
You cannot buy a current production rod or reel or waders online for less. There is a price floor. If someone is offering a coupon, discount, etc they are breaking contract and trust me...we are after them and people are looking. Also, the rod warranty is not transferrable...sage and scott have both revamped their systems and updated the warranty process. In the past this may have been the case...it's not now or will not be very shortly depending on when the updates are complete. 

FYI. Just so I'm not posting this with a cute online name, I'm James and I'm the southeastern rep for Scott, Nautilus and several other brands. I worked at the Fish Hawk in Atlanta. If anyone has any comments to the contrary of what I said, feel free to get up with me. I'm easy to find. 

James


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

JamesMB said:


> So I worked in a fly shop for around 10 years, as a fishing guide before, and now as a rep.
> 
> I'll say this to someone's face, not just bully someone online and then cower like a little girl when I see them face to face...
> 
> ...


Lame.


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

brokeoff said:


> Lame.


What's lame? You must not spend enough time at your local shop


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Nice personal attack for somebody that doesn't know me. Fact is you have NO FREAKING idea how much I support my local fly shop. I'll let it go at that.

So James let me ask you one simple question. When you want a new Scott Meridian do you go to your local fly shop and pay $865 (full retail) for it?


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

Well, last month I went north for a day of fishing. Tough weather meant we had to cancel. I decided to peek in the fly shop on the way home since I had some extra money from the canceled trip. $170 later I had a bunch of tying materials and a new long sleeve T to rep my local fly shop. It's comfy.

Then, this past weekend I just went up for a trip to the mountains. Could only get away for a few hours on the river. Spent about 30 minutes in the local fly shop. $168 dollars later I had a bunch of flies, forceps, tons of tippet but they had no long sleeve Ts. 

Next week I am buying an new 9 wt from a shop in NJ, four states away. It's cheaper than my other local fly shop where I buy lot's of stuff. The shop in NJ is still someone's local fly shop. Not sure if I should feel guilty.

I guess I'm just saying it doesn't seem right to tell someone how to spend their money. Or tell them what kind of fisherman they are.


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## Palma Sola (Jun 5, 2016)

Like I said before.. tell your local guy what kind of deals are out there, and see whether he can compete. Fly rods are rather long margin items..and shopping for sales to save money is a good thing too
But relationships are important to have and preserve.. These shops in theory pay the same price for the products they sell from Nautilus, Simms, Sage and Rio.. Please support your local guy, but being a savvy shopper is a good thing too.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

What if Florida Fly Shops "BLEW AWAY?"


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Backwater said:


> What if Florida Fly Shops "BLEW AWAY?"


We'd be "sunk"...


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## jboriol (Jan 2, 2010)

That could be the least of our problems!

I was headed to Islamorada at the end of September, not sure about that? I was looking forward to stoping at the local fly shop. Prayers for our friends in the keys.


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## SCFLYFISH (Jun 13, 2017)

JamesMB said:


> So I worked in a fly shop for around 10 years, as a fishing guide before, and now as a rep.
> 
> I'll say this to someone's face, not just bully someone online and then cower like a little girl when I see them face to face...
> 
> ...


Could you please list the other brands you are the SE Rep for along with you last name so I can contact these companies to see if this is the same motto and vision they have for their companies? If this is how they feel, I will be sure to avoid them and sell the current Scott and Nautilus gear I own and purchase other gear from companies who's vision is a bit more customer orientated and don't employ sales reps that are so agro, nasty and judgemental towards other peoples thoughts or opinions on internet forums who could be potential customers. (you made it clear you would say it to anybody's face so i know you mean business,,,,especially business for Scott and Nautilus.)

I personally spend WAY to much money in my local fly/fishing shops. I have relationships with them and they know up front that I am looking at something on sites such as microskiff that are unreal deals and are happy to let my throw what they have in the store to see if it works for me,, especially after Tarpon Season, hell, some of them have taken advantage of the deals on here.

We as the consumer have the right to shop around, wheel and deal to get the best value for our hard earned money. That's is business and consumer 101 in the United States of America. 

Have a Happy New Year's and please do provide the brands you sell.

E.J. Sullivan
John's Island SC


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

lemaymiami said:


> Today most are perfectly comfortable handling the shiny toys at a shop but then buy them on-line where it's definitely cheaper.... Not being able to count on the cream has sent more than one shop into the dumper - and the process will continue.


Already happened with camera stores.


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## flysalt060 (Aug 5, 2012)

Having been friends with James nearly 20 years, this is a sore point with not only him, but other reps. Yes everyone wants a good deal, but don't go cast rods at a shop then buy online. A person can once or twice go try the latest stick, but believe me folks at shop know what is going on. Flyshops go away, a whole lot of free knowledge is gone.


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## JamesMB (Sep 4, 2016)

Oh sure...contact and group information follows:

James Buice
[email protected]

Southeastern Representative for:
Scott Rods
Airflo Lines
Echo Rods
Nautilus Reels
Regal Vise and Engineering
Rep Your Water
Angler Sport Group
Korkers Footwear
Dr Slick

Contact information for each company can be found on the contact us section of their website. Feel free to link them in on the thread.


I find myself unapologetic when debating the loss of livelihood for myself and friends I’ve made with over 20 years in the industry. I’ve watched a lot change over the years; some good, some bad-both on the side of consumerism, retail level, and manufacturers.

Bottom line is without a local fly shop you’re losing not only a retail outlet and knowledge, but a legacy for the region and often the fishery. Most of the shop owners and employees are on the front end of advocacy in environmental concerns. For instance, I have several shops who are working with Now or Neverglades and providing a huge level of support and aiding awareness.

After the last hurricane hit the Keys and southern Florida, lots of fishing guides and their families were without homes...the first emails sent out asking for donations to help the victims were local fly shop owners. 

As for big ticket, rods and reels do make up a good portion of fly shop revenue, typically. With the major brands, price levels are set until the item is discontinued, so unless a dealer is breaking their contractural agreement the price paid at your home shop is the same retail price paid by an internet shop. You may save on sales tax depending on the state. That said, ever try to buy a hackle cape off an internet site; I wanna touch it and feel it and smell it. But then again, I’m one of those weird people who prefers print magazines and books over blogs and e magazines. 

My biggest concern is watching the sport of fly fishing move away from face to face interactions with other enthusiasts to bulletin board diatribes, social media sensations becoming the new standard by which all is judged, and the inability to walk into a friendly place with a new fly you just tied and actually have someone appreciate it in person.

If anyone feels like this is a poor vision, that is your freedom, but I will maintain my views and keep making a living doing what I love. 



JB


SCFLYFISH said:


> Could you please list the other brands you are the SE Rep for along with you last name so I can contact these companies to see if this is the same motto and vision they have for their companies? If this is how they feel, I will be sure to avoid them and sell the current Scott and Nautilus gear I own and purchase other gear from companies who's vision is a bit more customer orientated and don't employ sales reps that are so agro, nasty and judgemental towards other peoples thoughts or opinions on internet forums who could be potential customers. (you made it clear you would say it to anybody's face so i know you mean business,,,,especially business for Scott and Nautilus.)
> 
> I personally spend WAY to much money in my local fly/fishing shops. I have relationships with them and they know up front that I am looking at something on sites such as microskiff that are unreal deals and are happy to let my throw what they have in the store to see if it works for me,, especially after Tarpon Season, hell, some of them have taken advantage of the deals on here.
> 
> ...


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

ifsteve said:


> I buy as much as I reasonably can from my local shop. I have known the owner for almost 40 years. But when it comes to a big purchase like a new rod or reel I almost always do it online. Its just the only feasible way from a budget standpoint.


I have been buying from the same shop for over 30 years, I find that even on big purchases they will work with me on the price or discount other products so that they are competitive. I don't mind paying a little extra because the service they offer after the sale is priceless if you have a problem with the product.


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## acesover (Aug 21, 2015)

I worked at the local Bass Pro in the fly section, taught the tying classes. Got fed up with the management of the place and quit. The thing I noticed about the box store and the local store was that when I would ask to get something put in the fly section that would sell, the request was ignored. The box store fly shop was trout orientated, something we don't have in Florida, so things are stagnant. The local store on the other hand changes inventory to what will sell.
When the local store owner found out BPS was going to open, he was worried about losing business, but seeing as how BPS wouldn't change to inventory that would sell, the local shop does just fine. And the BPS here has seen a steady decline in sales, as it is nothing but a WalMart with a fish in the logo.
While working there, I sold an expensive fly rod to a customer, and was berated by a manager for not selling the customer an extended warranty on the rod. Told the manager that it came with a lifetime warranty from the mfg, but they still thought I should have gotten the customer to shell out another 200 bucks for something he didn't need. 
I buy ALL of my rods, reels, tying materials, etc, from the local shop, and if they don't have it, they order it for me.


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