# paying guides to find spots??



## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

just having a conversation with a buddy. Whats the consensus?i know its a gamble every time a guide takes someone to a spot that they may very well see them in there one day fishing the same flat, cove , bar... etc. little back ground on this i went out of town and fished with my buddy on a charter. I jokingly said " wow now we got this place mapped out" i guess loud enough that they could both hear me(buddy and guide). Never said anything like i was bringing my boat and fishing the same spot.So now we talk about taking another charter and my buddy Tells me not to say that again.I laugh and said the guide probably doesnt care. Im Sure it happens all the time. mind you this is out of town and i dont travel with the boat but once a year if that. So got to thinking, i wonder how many people do this. Ive only been on one fly charter . Since i have a boat i never wanted to pay anyone to fish inshore.


----------



## EasternGlow (Nov 6, 2015)

If guiding is his livelihood, he probably wouldn’t want many of his customers frequenting his spots. The essence of booking a guide is to have a great day on the water at the least, and learn techniques and methods and how to be more productive at the most. Not to tief his spots.


----------



## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

Tough call. You pay a guy 5 bills plus tip to go fishin for 6 hours, i'd say any knowledge you gain on that trip is yours. 

I have fished one time with an inshore guide. 2 years ago. In Charleston. If I ever take my skiff to Charleston, I dont think I am being a bandit if I fish the spots we were in that day.


----------



## Gatorgrizz27 (Apr 4, 2015)

I think most guides would be pissed. They are being paid to take you fishing, and most are willing to teach you a few things, but you don’t have a right to the decades of knowledge they’ve earned. 

Finding spots isn’t likely to make a big difference in many cases anyways, it’s more about how the fish are moving, tides, water temperature, what they’re feeding on, etc. I’ve had spots that were absolutely on fire one day and completely devoid of fish for months after.


----------



## Frank Ucci (Jan 20, 2019)

Buy yourself a Hot Spot Map. If the areas that your guide takes you is NOT displayed on the chart as a fishing area, don't go back there on your own. You're paying for the guide's expertise, not his hard-earned fishing spots.


----------



## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

The best is when a guide moves into your neighborhood from the east coast and suddenly wants to fish with you "for free" when he realizes you know the area better than he does.

Responding with, "Sure but you gotta leave the spinning gear and trolling motor at home" seems to have had the most desired effect so far.


----------



## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> Finding spots isn’t likely to make a big difference in many cases anyways, it’s more about how the fish are moving, tides, water temperature, what they’re feeding on, etc. I’ve had spots that were absolutely on fire one day and completely devoid of fish for months after.


This.

There are no such things as "spots" inshore.

But there are "areas" that hold fish on certain tides, winds, etc that don't need additional traffic or pressure.


----------



## Boneheaded (Oct 4, 2017)

Spots? There one day gone the next.


----------



## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

Frank Ucci said:


> Buy yourself a Hot Spot Map. If the areas that your guide takes you is NOT displayed on the chart as a fishing area, don't go back there on your own. You're paying for the guide's expertise, not his hard-earned fishing spots.


im not looking for spots, read the post


----------



## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

Guides do thier research on clinets and know who they are taking... we know who are fishing for fish and who are fishing for spots. The best part is not all fish stay put 24/7


----------



## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

If you are asking this question I’m betting you already feel guilty. They earn their livelihood off those spots.

Next time ask them for the reason’s why they think this spot works then go find your own with similar habitat’s.

I would never take a guide trip with someone no matter how much I paid them and then come fish their spots. You are paying for their knowledge and in some cases access to their fishing grounds not to pot lick them for yourself.

Teach a man to fish....


----------



## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

texasag07 said:


> If you are asking this question I’m betting you already feel guilty. They earn their livelihood off those spots.
> 
> Next time ask them for the reason’s why they think this spot works then go find your own with similar habitat’s.
> 
> ...


i dont feel guilty at all . I didnt say i was paying for spots. Did you read the original post at all? It was a general question.


----------



## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

I have a good friend that is a local fly guide. I hired him for 3 trips and we went to different spots each time. I was very honest with him that I live on the water, have my boat in the lift behind my house and plan to fish the same water. It has been my backyard for 19 years. We fish for fun together now and he doesn't charge me but he also knows that I'm not out there to slay the fish or be a social media attention whore either. I asked him about what he thought about customers hitting the spots they fished. He said it is just part of it. He's on the water a lot and knows where the fish are and he wants to help his clients catch fish so they go where the fish are. He said mostly, his clients don't have their own boats that could get them where they are fishing anyway. He did take me to a few places and teach me a couple techniques that he asked me to be very selective with who I shared the info with.


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

You paid for them to take you to a public spot. Provide a little help if needed and bring you back. They don’t own the spot. Sure you can go back there and fish. However, the guy makes his living, works hard to provide that fun. Find your own spot. There are hundreds if not thousands of productive spots and not one of them is a secret anymore. A descent person would use the info gained and fish another spot or look for a spot that you think is your own until the next time you go out.


----------



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

I have dozens if not hundreds of inshore spots filed away in my memory. I also know that certain conditions have to exist, time of year, tide, wind, time of day, temperature, weather conditions, etc before a spot will be productive. Where to go and when is probably the most important ingredient for success when it comes to catching fish. I don't care if I show someone a spot and they mark it on their gps. Unless they know the factors that will make that spot work, the info is useless. If the fisherman knows the factors that make a spot work, he's probably smart enough to find his own and doesn't need me to show him around.


----------



## Str8-Six (Jul 6, 2015)

There is more satisfaction in catching a fish when you put in the work for it. Who knows you might get lucky. My first time every chasing Biscayne Bonefish I had no clue what I was doing, might as well been blindfolded. I asked the guy at the bait shop for any general tips and went on my way. Well it ended up working out and I caught my first Bonefish on fly that day. Definitely more rewarding than catching it in someone’s spot. On the contrary, I’ve also heard well known fisherman start off their carreeer following around guides to get spots. I believe I heard Flip say this in a HB video once, could be wrong. But that was a long time ago and times were different.


----------



## jonterr (Mar 24, 2013)

Vertigo said:


> I have dozens if not hundreds of inshore spots filed away in my memory. I also know that certain conditions have to exist, time of year, tide, wind, time of day, temperature, weather conditions, etc before a spot will be productive. Where to go and when is probably the most important ingredient for success when it comes to catching fish. I don't care if I show someone a spot and they mark it on their gps. Unless they know the factors that will make that spot work, the info is useless. If the fisherman knows the factors that make a spot work, he's probably smart enough to find his own and doesn't need me to show him around.


A buddy of mine went with a guide years ago in an airboat.
He wasn't allowed to take a phone or gps AND he was blindfolded
But, he caught some big ones


----------



## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

jonterr said:


> blindfolded


Hard no. I don't care if the nazarene himself descended from the heavens and commanded it, there is not a man on this earth who can blindfold me without a fight.


----------



## Padre (Jul 29, 2016)

Here is my 2 cents:
1. Here in Destin, if you are fishing offshore with a charter captain and you are fishing his private reefs, (He permitted them and sunk them) and you mark them on your phone, etc or come back and fish them, or follow him to see where they are, you can expect to either get beat up back at the dock, shot at or have your boat rammed. They do not tolerate people trying to steal their private spots. Now, if you stumble upon it with your scanner, that is another story.
2. Like everybody said, inshore, the fish move around here. And this winter, I found an area that has been holding a school of 100 reds all winter. And I have been fishing it basically by myself. I have seen nobody fish this spot all winter. I have taken a few of my buddies out there and asked them not to tell anybody. If I went out there the next morning and they were staked out on that spot, I would not hesitate to pole right in and fish it too. I wouldn't normally do that.
3. A couple of years ago, a buddy and I hired a guide in Salida, CO. We told him that we hired him to show us the area and how to fish the area but we wouldn't fish his spots. He guided us to mostly public spots right off the highway. That night, we got on Google earth and found some out of the way places for the next day. We had to use our 4 wheel drive to get there and then hike about a quarter mile to get to the spot. We were fishing for about an hour with good success when imagine our surprise, and his surprise when that guide came hiking down another trail by himself and found us fishing that spot. We had a good laugh.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Put yourself in their shoes. Imagine how the guide feels showing up in a spot with a new client only to find their previous client already there. They are trying to make a living.

Having said that there are some guides where stuff like this is just karma coming back around to bite them for their poor daily behavior on the water.


----------



## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

@Padre- those reefs off Destin are private? I didn’t know that. Interesting. I know people sink brush piles in the lake for crappie condos but figured you couldn’t do that in saltwater.


----------



## Padre (Jul 29, 2016)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> @Padre- those reefs off Destin are private? I didn’t know that. Interesting. I know people sink brush piles in the lake for crappie condos but figured you couldn’t do that in saltwater.


You get permitted and the CG inspects them before you sink them. They call them Grouper Condos. Lot of them are chicken pens, old cement truck containers, etc. Now, you can go by a tackle shop and get a list of the public sites but there are plenty out there sunk by private individuals and again, if you stumble across one, they can't stop you from fishing them. But if you try and follow them to find them, it will be trouble.


----------



## windblows (May 21, 2014)

In NE Florida, there are definitely "spots" inshore. Oyster beds, docks, small creek mouths, grass that floods right on a certain tide. Also, for some of the spots, you have to really fight to get to them without knowing if another boat is in your spot (shallow, long, windy creeks that might take 10 minutes of trolling motor power to get to. In that instance, if I was a guide and found one of my clients in a spot like that, I'd be upset...especially if I was with a new group of clients. That said, if you're a good guide, you better have multiple contingency plans...


----------



## Robin Williams (Jul 16, 2018)

I’ve guided for years on my boat and will happily jump into anyone else’s boat on a guided trip as well. I don’t personally play the secret game (because GPS has eliminated most), somebody helped teach me, I will help teach someone else. I have my personal spots that hardly nobody is at on a Tuesday-Thursday. Blindfolding somebody is the sketchiest thing I’ve ever heard of.


----------



## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

I've had three guides ask me to show them where I catch tailers. Not likely. They're flats that produce on the right tide. Sometimes the tide doesn't make up, sometimes it's an hour late, but if it's right there probably will be tails sticking up.
I gave some offshore numbers to a friend to help him to catch fish. Structure that I had found, not on any chart, and I had not seen anyone else on them. Two months later I went to both spots and found a boat on them, most likely because my friend gave them to a friend, and they gave them to a friend. I don't do that anymore.


----------



## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

No, I wouldn't say anything like that. Also, most phones now track GPS coordinates 24/7, and guides are aware of this, but it is something that shouldn't be done on the boat (making sure GPS is working).

Now there are times I do log when I am in new areas to see where we were and I keep track of the tide, or look at actual tide results, to see what the fish were doing. There are so many factors that this only provides something to look at, it doesn't guarantee any future results. And I never share this info, or post it online. It's just to tune my knowledge.


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Maybe that’s why farmers buy a plot of land so you can’t use it. Same goes for miners staking a claim. Fishing spots do not have the same rights. However it is a low blow.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

A spot isn’t worth a damn unless you know how to fish it, when to fish it and why to fish it.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

If people focused less on spot fishing and more on learning to read the water they’d realize there are good fish to be caught in places most people run past on the way to “the spot”. 
Here’s my favorite spot to fish and it’s always on fire!


----------



## Mike Geer (Nov 22, 2018)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> A spot isn’t worth a damn unless you know how to fish it, when to fish it and why to fish it.


This sums it up. You have to know when and how to fish any given spot. My guide friend share info all the time with every one of his clients knowing that most of them own a boat.
I equate it with BBQing Brisket; I can tell people exactly what to do and for how long and what temp, but invariably they come back to me saying it did not work. After an entire Saturday full of smoke and a mediocre brisket, they always buy my brisket.

In addition there are several places that I have fished so much with guides that I could easily take people and fish these spots (Marquesas, Turkey PointShoal, etc), but I would have to guide them and pole them, so my guides have a significant amount of job security.

Mike


----------



## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

Padre said:


> You get permitted and the CG inspects them before you sink them. They call them Grouper Condos. Lot of them are chicken pens, old cement truck containers, etc. Now, you can go by a tackle shop and get a list of the public sites but there are plenty out there sunk by private individuals and again, if you stumble across one, they can't stop you from fishing them. But if you try and follow them to find them, it will be trouble.


That’s cool. I’ve stumbled across a couple but have no clue if they were publicly or privately built.


----------



## Robin Williams (Jul 16, 2018)

Learn a stretch of coast line migration patterns and it’s a done deal.


----------



## flysalt060 (Aug 5, 2012)

Mike Geer said:


> This sums it up. You have to know when and how to fish any given spot. My guide friend share info all the time with every one of his clients knowing that most of them own a boat.
> I equate it with BBQing Brisket; I can tell people exactly what to do and for how long and what temp, but invariably they come back to me saying it did not work. After an entire Saturday full of smoke and a mediocre brisket, they always buy my brisket.
> 
> In addition there are several places that I have fished so much with guides that I could easily take people and fish these spots (Marquesas, Turkey PointShoal, etc), but I would have to guide them and pole them, so my guides have a significant amount of job security.
> ...


You had to say Turkey point! Good luck Internet trollers figuring it out. Especially after the cane came thru.


----------



## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> If people focused less on spot fishing and more on learning to read the water they’d realize there are good fish to be caught in places most people run past on the way to “the spot”.
> Here’s my favorite spot to fish and it’s always on fire!
> View attachment 60348


I fished there twice and didn't do any good.Wrong tide, I guess.


----------



## Mike Geer (Nov 22, 2018)

1A6BB7BA-1806-453D-89E4-131FA6AED45D




__
Mike Geer


__
Feb 9, 2019








One of my favorite spots; watch out for rocks!


----------



## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

Yea here in jax the marsh can look like a maze and there are a bunch of land mine oyster bars if you dont pay attention.


----------



## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

Padre said:


> You get permitted and the CG inspects them before you sink them. They call them Grouper Condos. Lot of them are chicken pens, old cement truck containers, etc. Now, you can go by a tackle shop and get a list of the public sites but there are plenty out there sunk by private individuals and again, if you stumble across one, they can't stop you from fishing them. But if you try and follow them to find them, it will be trouble.


No such thing as “private reefs”, a lot of people illegally dump their junk out in the Gulf to create their private reefs, but the permitted stuff is done for public reefs only.


----------



## Rick hambric (Jun 24, 2017)

The Georgia coast (to me) is the hardest place to learn. I’ve been out with a charter or two but let them know I wanted to learn the area and nuances of the area. I had been to most of those “spots” before and they had seen me there, but during the wrong tide, temp, wind direction, ect. When I’m over there and see one of them come up, I will gently work my way back out. I’m there for fun and relaxation, not for a living. There’s been quite a few times where if I find that a school has moved to or stumble upon a little special place, I will let one of them know. (Saved his butt one day) so basically my take is if you’re wanting to learn an area, be up front with him & BE HONEST. They will respect you for that, and if you’re out there and see them on the horizon GENTLY & respectfully let the man earn his living. If you find a secret spot repay the favor and tell him, you never know it might pay off and get a free trip out when they have a no show....


----------



## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Out of all the Tarpon guides I've ever had I've never caught a fish so i doubt ill use there spots


----------



## Robin Williams (Jul 16, 2018)

Dude that’s funny


----------



## Ken T (Dec 10, 2015)

My outfitters service guides a lot of fly fishermen each year and we have been for 2 decades. Every guide that works for us tells every client where they are (each spot) and how to get back there if they choose to. We let them know where to park (if wading) and the best times to target the areas on foot and by boat.

This approach has led to a yearly calendar that grows every year. People appreciate this type of service and know that our advice is normally spot on.

After sharing spots openly for years and being on the water daily, it is rare to find people back in the same places you take them. It does happen on occasion and when it does I use it as an opportunity to catch up with them before moving on.

Many of our guides are initially skeptical when we tell them that it is our policy to help everyone learn the spots and techniques. Over time however they see the benefits as their bookings increase.

As many have said, just because someone knows your spots there is no guarantee that they will know the when and how to fish the spot in the future. I have found that there are very few anglers who will fish a spot as efficiently alone as they will with a quality guide.

Just another view on the topic


----------



## EasternGlow (Nov 6, 2015)

Ken T said:


> My outfitters service guides a lot of fly fishermen each year and we have been for 2 decades. Every guide that works for us tells every client where they are (each spot) and how to get back there if they choose to. We let them know where to park (if wading) and the best times to target the areas on foot and by boat.
> 
> This approach has led to a yearly calendar that grows every year. People appreciate this type of service and know that our advice is normally spot on.
> 
> ...


I’m guessing you’re not in Florida?


----------



## prinjm6 (May 13, 2015)

I only take local clients to community holes and vet clients prior to trips, you have to earn the knowledge by putting your time in and that time is worth more than $375 to me. I explain all the why's while we are out there and that it's easy to find your own "spots" by finding similar areas using satellite images.


----------



## Ken T (Dec 10, 2015)

EasternGlow said:


> I’m guessing you’re not in Florida?


Florida 5 months of the year.. New York State the remainder.


----------



## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

Its only rape if he says no and fights back.

LOL J/K... Legal yes, Ethical No. Chance of getting flipped the bird when he/she sees you at their spots ~50%.

IMO confrontations on the water ruin my day. I would rather not catch fish at my spots than get in a screaming match with someone at a spot I paid to fish.


----------



## Lagoonnewb (Apr 16, 2017)

Capt Pat Murphy (rip) actually told me to do this back when I was just fishing out of my kayak, he said to hire a guide and try to learn the area better since I was limited with my kayak. I never actually took his advice but it was interesting to hear a guide straight up tell me to do it. Most people who are hiring guides don’t have boats capable of fishing where they are going so I don’t really have a big issue with it, I also have no issue telling people where I was fishing at either because like many on here have already said the fish are constantly moving and there are more variables than just knowing a “spot”


----------



## Robin Williams (Jul 16, 2018)

Lagoonnewb said:


> Capt Pat Murphy (rip) actually told me to do this back when I was just fishing out of my kayak, he said to hire a guide and try to learn the area better since I was limited with my kayak. I never actually took his advice but it was interesting to hear a guide straight up tell me to do it. Most people who are hiring guides don’t have boats capable of fishing where they are going so I don’t really have a big issue with it, I also have no issue telling people where I was fishing at either because like many on here have already said the fish are constantly moving and there are more variables than just knowing a “spot”


Very good explication! Guides are just that, guides! Not some secretive guru who knows how to fish for money! I enjoy sharing the knowledge of an area with others in the hopes they enjoy catching fish for fun or sharing a nice meal with family and friends.


----------



## EsteroS (Aug 27, 2018)

Every guide I've gone with inshore here in ft myers has spent the day educating me...(ie guiding me). They know I'm local and trying to figure out how to fish. They point out oyster beds that would produce better at other tides, or we'll pass by mangrove islands that they tell me do great for a species we're not fishing for. I appreciate what they do, and for the $700 plus tip that I give them, they spend some time to help me become a better fisherman. The only secret I've found that a good guide protects with his soul is where he/she goes to catch bait, which I can totally appreciate and understand. Sucks b/c that's what I need to learn the most!


----------



## taffrail (Dec 23, 2018)

Well gents and Gurls....here is my solution......kinda. About 2 years ago I bought an old Gamin Marine GPS. It has many, many spots marked here in my local area. If I fish every day for the rest of my life I might not fish them all. But...........I have not fished a single one. If I need someone to point to a spot on the water and say "fish there" I'd rather just go to HEB and buy fishsticks. To me the whole point is finding a pattern that works that day and using it.

Just my 2 half cents..........


----------



## taffrail (Dec 23, 2018)

taffrail said:


> Well gents and Gurls....here is my solution......kinda. About 2 years ago I bought an old Gamin Marine GPS. It has many, many spots marked here in my local area. If I fish every day for the rest of my life I might not fish them all. But...........I have not fished a single one. If I need someone to point to a spot on the water and say "fish there" I'd rather just go to HEB and buy fishsticks. To me the whole point is finding a pattern that works that day and using it.
> 
> Just my 2 half cents..........


By the way, that GPS is not for sale. Save you the trouble of asking.


----------



## prinjm6 (May 13, 2015)

In Jax there is a guy who chartered several Captains, that guy is now a Captain and is "Guiding" clients in the same exact places he was taken to and shown. Unfortunately with everything being so readily available at 4G LTE speeds, people no longer put the time in and want the instant gratification, the other is the 18-21 yr old "guides" with the boat dad bought that potlick you while you're working....


----------



## taffrail (Dec 23, 2018)

prinjm6 said:


> In Jax there is a guy who chartered several Captains, that guy is now a Captain and is "Guiding" clients in the same exact places he was taken to and shown. Unfortunately with everything being so readily available at 4G LTE speeds, people no longer put the time in and want the instant gratification, the other is the 18-21 yr old "guides" with the boat dad bought that potlick you while you're working....


That's the kind of stuff that karma usually takes care of in spades. Knew a lady that got hurt at work. While out on Worker's Comp her boss moved his girlfriend into that spot. Not long after he divorce his wife and married the girlfriend. Within a very few months the girlfriend was diagnosed with very serious heart problems. Never worked again. And so on and etc.


----------



## Ken T (Dec 10, 2015)

QUOTE - In Jax there is a guy who chartered several Captains, that guy is now a Captain and is "Guiding" clients in the same exact places he was taken to and shown. Unfortunately with everything being so readily available at 4G LTE speeds, people no longer put the time in and want the instant gratification, the other is the 18-21 yr old "guides" with the boat dad bought that potlick you while you're working...

Learning a guides spots and being a good fishermen has little to do with being a successful guide.

Guiding is a service business. Every day is about catering to the customer and providing the type of experience they want. There are plenty of successful guides around the country who are marginally skilled at catching fish but have full calendars. It is the people who can provide the top rate service from the initial contact, find fish, teach and are fun to be with that are the great ones and they are always booked.

Additionally age has nothing to do with a quality guide experience. We have had many young people who started in our fly shop while in high school. They learned customer service and spent major time on the water with veteran guides. At age 18 they met the requirements for licensing and have excelled in the business from day one.


----------



## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

Madness


----------



## Robin Williams (Jul 16, 2018)

Some guides guide for their own glory, others guide to show Gods. It took me several years to figure that one out, but it changed my perspective tremendously.


----------



## prinjm6 (May 13, 2015)

Ken T said:


> QUOTE - In Jax there is a guy who chartered several Captains, that guy is now a Captain and is "Guiding" clients in the same exact places he was taken to and shown. Unfortunately with everything being so readily available at 4G LTE speeds, people no longer put the time in and want the instant gratification, the other is the 18-21 yr old "guides" with the boat dad bought that potlick you while you're working...
> 
> Learning a guides spots and being a good fishermen has little to do with being a successful guide.
> 
> ...


The kids in your fly shop and ones I'm talking about are not one in the same.


----------



## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

well i guess that narrows it down to black ......


prinjm6 said:


> In Jax there is a guy who chartered several Captains, that guy is now a Captain and is "Guiding" clients in the same exact places he was taken to and shown. Unfortunately with everything being so readily available at 4G LTE speeds, people no longer put the time in and want the instant gratification, the other is the 18-21 yr old "guides" with the boat dad bought that potlick you while you're working....


----------



## Godzuki86 (Nov 30, 2013)

CaptainSam said:


> Every guide I've gone with inshore here in ft myers has spent the day educating me...(ie guiding me). They know I'm local and trying to figure out how to fish. They point out oyster beds that would produce better at other tides, or we'll pass by mangrove islands that they tell me do great for a species we're not fishing for. I appreciate what they do, and for the $700 plus tip that I give them, they spend some time to help me become a better fisherman. The only secret I've found that a good guide protects with his soul is where he/she goes to catch bait, which I can totally appreciate and understand. Sucks b/c that's what I need to learn the most!


What part of ft Myers? Pine island? Because bait in Pine Island sound is the worlds worst kept secret. Anytime from March(ish) to August just look for the 18 gazillion boats powerpoled down on a flat. I like good grass, four feet of water and purina One tropical fish food. Any time after August it’s normally easy to get bait at the Sanibel bridges.


----------



## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Knowledge is meant to be shared and is impossible to intentionally forget. First, you must be honest with the guide from the start. Beyond that, if you learn a new area/approach from a guide, add it to your repertoire and play through when the conditions seem right, I don’t feel you are screwing him.

If you camp out on the guide’s spots and beat them to death because you never explore the area on your own, you’re a dirt bag... ...and you will catch fewer fish because you only learned a “spot”, not an approach.

Nate


----------



## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

If you are honest up front and there is a little communication I have no problem showing and helping as much as I can, even ran a clients boat before. As mentioned above, just because you have a spot doesn't always mean much. As with everything a little communication goes a long way and so does honesty.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yep, just be sure the guide knows you’re a potlicker before you put the deposit down.


----------



## kylet (Jun 29, 2017)

In my personal experience, most people who are defensive of spots, probably didn’t find that spot themselves. Spots burn out all the time. Finding new spots is fun.

In regards to the guide deal, I’m not going with a guide to spots I have the ability to get to myself.


----------



## brianBFD (Oct 25, 2017)

Vertigo said:


> ...Where to go and when is probably the most important ingredient for success when it comes to catching fish. I don't care if I show someone a spot and they mark it on their gps. Unless they know the factors that will make that spot work, the info is useless...


This sounds like my friend who guides. He's seen some of his clients on the same spot they fished a week earlier and they're skunking. He said unless they know why the fish are at that location at that time of day (tides, moon phase, etc.) they're wasting their time trying to potlick him.


----------



## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

If it's some of the seasonal shitbirds that post up just down the beach from me when they're here and justify it with "I had clients man..." then yeah it's totally acceptable to burn every spot they have on general principle (at their home water). 

Nothing worse than getting up and getting out there in dark, adjust your position for fish, get on a perfect line for fish and then a shitbird late to the party guide sets his boat up 100 yds away, breaking up groups that either don't get back together until after they get to you, or they're hugging the bottom from being flogged and you can't do anything with them anyway. Lot of guides I have spoken to call it "fun fishing" as in for fun, and not as important as client fishing. Well let me tell you it is fun, but when you drop 1000s of dollars on boats, equip, time off work, then yeah you're going to get a reaction because I probably take it a little more serious than I should.

The other side of that coin is a person like a local guide I got to know by seeing each other all the time on the water, and at the ramp. He's hardworking, professional, fishes the area year round, doesn't act like a shitbird, always gives everyone a wide berth. Hell he even calls me out of the blue to tell me when he starts seeing what I'm after. Burning spots of someone like that is a NO GO.

Sorry for the rant, my answer to the question is, it depends on the guide.


----------



## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

My spots show themselves every winter. They have been known to move.


----------



## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

The only pot licking I'll do is Cake or Brownie batter, and if you say you don't do that you're a liar.

Honestly where I fished in Tampa always had other boats within eye shot and if it didn't it was during the week. A lot of guides on tower boats acted like they owned the water and would come on into your spot and start throwing live bait all around with little regard to you fishing because this is where they work and "you're in their spot." I never went on a guided trip there but I have to imagine there aren't many secrets, except for weedon island and cockroach bay... shhhhh.

In Charleston we have huge tidal swings and weird weather, even if a guide took you to a spot that you remember it'll be tough for you to recreate that situation. On an average Saturday when I'm dropping my skiff in the water i'll see at least 3-4 other skiff trailers. Some are guides but most aren't, but we're essentially all chasing the same fish in a pretty small area and it's pretty dang tough. For the most part though if you're going to spot A and you get there and someone is already there most will go to spot B without giving it a second thought. I think there's too much thought being put into all of this.


----------



## Rick hambric (Jun 24, 2017)

being a potlicker and wanting to learn an area and most importantly (how to fish that area) is two different things. it all depends on how you do things, being honest and most imp


mtoddsolomon said:


> The only pot licking I'll do is Cake or Brownie batter, and if you say you don't do that you're a liar.
> 
> In Charleston we have huge tidal swings and weird weather, even if a guide took you to a spot that you remember it'll be tough for you to recreate that situation. On an average Saturday when I'm dropping my skiff in the water i'll see at least 3-4 other skiff trailers. Some are guides but most aren't, but we're essentially all chasing the same fish in a pretty small area and it's pretty dang tough. For the most part though if you're going to spot A and you get there and someone is already there most will go to spot B without giving it a second thought. I think there's too much thought being put into all of this.


On a diet so no goodie for me! But the southern ga coast is the same way as South Carolina. It’s more about learning how to fish the areas than the areas themselves. Go hit that chocolate milk water moving at 10kts when you have a small 7ft tide, While using the gulf coast 2ft tide in clear water thought process and you are screwed!!!


----------



## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

Regarding the finding of spots and GPS, I personally would get more use out of a Texas version of the Florida Marine Tracks chip. I know my gel coat and motor skeg would too.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

You guys know my potlicker reply was a joke right? I know people will communicate with guides and have an understanding that they are wanting the guide to show them around or run their boat for them so they can learn their way around an area. There’s nothing wrong with that. There is such a thing as a teaching guide BUT a good guide will teach you how to read water, birds, bait, slicks, wind, current etc. instead of letting you hit the easy button and just taking you from spot to spot and letting them mark it on their phone GPS then casting their popping cork and shrimp for them, hooking the fish then handing them the rod. Do you want to learn something or just have someone do everything for you short of spoon feeding you like a baby? Believe it or not there are people out there who pay guides to do just that and want nothing more than a box of dead fish to toss on the dock in a pile for a hero shot then give the fish away because they don’t even want it. Those are not the clients I’m looking for. I’ll be looking for people who want much more than just the dead fish and GPS coordinates.
But in all seriousness, I get absolutely SICK of people pulling the “someone had to show them that spot so it’s not really their spot either” card on threads like this. Better yet have someone tell you that on the water after you chew their ass for running their boat right around you and setting up to wade or pole just down wind of the shoreline or grass flat you were already fishing and working your way down. People who do that are lazy and need to stay home. Once again, it’s not about having a spot marked on a GPS, it’s knowing what to do with that spot, when and how. I like to pick areas apart and work a bunch of prime shoreline with many high percentage “spots” along the way. Last Monday I fishing solo (imagine that) and waded from 7:30am until 5pm in the intermittent rain. I caught about 60-80 trout with many over 20” and only moved my boat three times all day. Not many clients like that but it’s what you have to do to learn an area correctly and thoroughly. Do that in a bunch of places in different times of the year and different conditions and figure it out. 
I’m with LowHydrogen, I’m pretty serious when it comes to fishing. If you fish twice a year and want to get shitfaced drunk when you do finally get on the water you can stay off my boat and stay away from me while I’m on the water doing what I love. Save the shenanigans for your summer sand bars and group jet ski runs across the flats..
One of the best things you can teach people is how not to burn a shoreline, grass flat etc and how to act on the water you are sharing with others. I like to think of it like the supermarket. If you go around bumping into people’s cart, knocking their kids over to get to something on the shelf or raking shit off the shelf into the aisle and letting your kids eat stuff off the shelf without paying for it you will eventually piss off the wrong person.
I’m on nights right now and pretty crabby if you guys couldn’t tell...


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> Regarding the finding of spots and GPS, I personally would get more use out of a Texas version of the Florida Marine Tracks chip. I know my gel coat and motor skeg would too.


I hope they never make one to be honest. HotSpot Maps and Google Earth are bad enough. If your hull doesn’t hit shell now and then you aren’t fishing hard enough...


----------



## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> If your hull doesn’t hit shell now and then you aren’t fishing hard enough...


True story.

My dad isn’t much on fishing and asked why I keep most of my gps tracks. I told him it was so I didn’t bust up my lower unit running to spots.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> True story.
> 
> My dad isn’t much on fishing and asked why I keep most of my gps tracks. I told him it was so I didn’t bust up my lower unit running to spots.


Jack that sucker up! Haha


----------



## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

Pathetic. Fishing is supposed to involve some measure of adventurism. The original question speaks volumes. Potlickers are pathetic and its why great guides keep the good patterns and "spots" for their good repeat clients. Pffft.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

EdK13 said:


> Pathetic. Fishing is supposed to involve some measure of adventurism. The original question speaks volumes. Potlickers are pathetic and its why great guides keep the good patterns and "spots" for their good repeat clients. Pffft.


This is what a majority want these days...


----------



## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

And Tipping is not just a city in Chyna.


----------



## Billfish84 (Jan 31, 2019)

Did the guide say, “Saved Spot!”?


----------



## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

EdK13 said:


> Pathetic. Fishing is supposed to involve some measure of adventurism. The original question speaks volumes. Potlickers are pathetic and its why great guides keep the good patterns and "spots" for their good repeat clients. Pffft.


Never said i was doing this charter for spots i just figured id ask . It wasnt a question of “should i” it was a general what does everyone think. Like i said this was out of town and i have only fished this place once ever.i personally dont take charters to do this “potlicking” or so its called. This is the first fly charter /inshore charter i have ever been on. I go find my own i was just going with a buddy who is new to fly fishing


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Rookiemistake said:


> Never said i was doing this charter for spots i just figured id ask . It wasnt a question of “should i” it was a general what does everyone think. Like i said this was out of town and i have only fished this place once ever.i personally dont take charters to do this “potlicking” or so its called. This is the first fly charter /inshore charter i have ever been on. I go find my own i was just going with a buddy who is new to fly fishing


I don’t think Ed was singling you out, it was more of a general statement. 
As stated, it sounds like the general consensus is discussing your intentions with the guide before you ever discuss anything else and surely before you set foot on his/her boat. I’ve personally seen guides take guys back to the boat ramp because they found them fooling with a handheld GPS and once with a cell phone without asking first. That’s somewhere along the lines of slapping a stranger’s wife’s butt and not expecting him to get upset.


----------



## JBonorden (Jun 27, 2015)

Rookiemistake said:


> just having a conversation with a buddy. Whats the consensus?i know its a gamble every time a guide takes someone to a spot that they may very well see them in there one day fishing the same flat, cove , bar... etc. little back ground on this i went out of town and fished with my buddy on a charter. I jokingly said " wow now we got this place mapped out" i guess loud enough that they could both hear me(buddy and guide). Never said anything like i was bringing my boat and fishing the same spot.So now we talk about taking another charter and my buddy Tells me not to say that again.I laugh and said the guide probably doesnt care. Im Sure it happens all the time. mind you this is out of town and i dont travel with the boat but once a year if that. So got to thinking, i wonder how many people do this. Ive only been on one fly charter . Since i have a boat i never wanted to pay anyone to fish inshore.


Most of the guides I know down here fish conditions more than spots. If the fish are over mud/shell, then they know several spots to check and see if bait is present. If fish are over sand and grass, we have miles of that type of cover so they are looking for something else besides a spot. Client may come back to the same spot he caught fish with the guide and get his butt skunked.


----------



## Bonefish4 (Jan 7, 2019)

As a seasoned guide, all I can do is offer my personal opinion. Please remember, this is my personal opinion from my perspective. I’m not stating fact or trying to incite a riot.

As a fishing guide, your knowledge is your intellectual property. It takes years and decades to accumulate. As most people have mentioned in this thread, the knowledge that is most important revolves around water temperature, wind, tide, time of year, etc. The spot is only good when you are there at the right time and when all the conditions line up. 

However, when I take someone fishing, I am not selling them my intellectual property. I am selling them a day on the water where I put my experience and knowledge to work for their benefit in order to give them the best chances at catching fish. Think about it...when you hire any person for a service, you hire him/her for the *service*. If you want to learn about something, you pay to attend a class or a seminar. I take pride in teaching people about the environment I work in daily. I enjoy helping people perfect their cast. That’s what a fishing guide does. I think it provides the customer with a better experience and is part of the job description. Unless you’re going for mangrove snapper or on a rod-bending expedition with your kids, there isn’t a captain that will be ok with openly selling his hard-earned spots. If that was the case, the cost of the charter would be way more expensive than it already is. 

There’s no problem watching how your guide fishes spots throughout the day and applying that knowledge to a new area. That is the most rewarding part of fishing! Go explore something new and apply the knowledge! Don’t get caught up in the “spot” mentality. If you don’t think you can control yourself, then I would recommend being upfront and honest with your guide about your intentions. Honesty is the best policy. Although the guide might not take you to the best spots, at least you will earn his/her trust and more knowledge will flow from there.

Just my two cents. No aggression necessary. Tight lines to all.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Bonefish4 said:


> As a seasoned guide, all I can do is offer my personal opinion. Please remember, this is my personal opinion from my perspective. I’m not stating fact or trying to incite a riot.
> 
> As a fishing guide, your knowledge is your intellectual property. It takes years and decades to accumulate. As most people have mentioned in this thread, the knowledge that is most important revolves around water temperature, wind, tide, time of year, etc. The spot is only good when you are there at the right time and when all the conditions line up.
> 
> ...


Well said.


----------



## Ruddy Duck LA (Jun 23, 2017)

Hmmmm. Good guides don't fish "spots".

But you sure as hell can't go back to their "spots".

This isn't black and white. On one end of the spectrum, there are folks that will book a single day and hide a GPS. I believe this is clearly unethical.

On the other end, I know locals that have formed great relationships with guides and book them regularly during the year. Does that mean they are prohibited from fishing any "spot" that the guide has ever taken them to? Hell no. Even in a place as big as Lowsyanna, their potential fishing grounds would shrink considerably.

Of course, the majority of charters fall somewhere in the gray.

I've had a guide ask me not to fish one particular "spot". This was one of many we fished in a day. No problem. I can respect that.

For what its worth, the better guides seem to be less threatened. The noobs come unglued about "spots". This totally makes sense. But again, this needs to be taken in the context of this not being a true black and white issue.

Just discuss with the guide when you book the charter if you ever have any intention of fishing the area on your own. Don't wait until the morning of the charter as this may make the guide feel like they are being put on the spot.


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

jmrodandgun said:


> Hard no. I don't care if the nazarene himself descended from the heavens and commanded it, there is not a man on this earth who can blindfold me without a fight.


Me neither, but there's a few women I'd let do it.....


----------



## Capt.Ron (Mar 5, 2014)

Ruddy Duck LA said:


> Hmmmm. Good guides don't fish "spots".
> 
> But you sure as hell can't go back to their "spots".
> 
> ...


Im that guide lol


----------



## rovster (Aug 21, 2018)

Robin Williams said:


> Some guides guide for their own glory, others guide to show Gods. It took me several years to figure that one out, but it changed my perspective tremendously.


This is fantastic and can be applied across multiple fields.


----------



## PaytonWP (Sep 17, 2020)

Personally, if I live close enough to fish a place out my boat “500 miles or less” I’m not hiring a guide, no matter the learning curve. I’d rather catch 1 fish in a week than have a guide hold my hand and take me fishing. What’s wrong with going out and learning crap for ourselves? Not saying that hiring a guide is bad or anything but if someone is pulling a boat to a new area, that same someone needs to put in the work and learn it for theirselves.


----------



## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

We all find areas to fish one way or another. We go explore new areas with a trolling motor or push pole, we go out with a friend or a guide, look at google maps, etc... The best way to find new areas in my opinion is to be observant when you are on the water. One of the things I look for is guides or others I know that are good fishermen poling an area I have not fished, I make a mental note of it and explore it later when nobody is there.


----------



## NealXB2003 (Jun 8, 2020)

Discuss it with the guide before the trip. Many elect not to take locals for that very reason.


----------



## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

With the introduction of microskiffs in the late 90s ie The whipray there are no secret spots anymore and if you think you're fishing where no one has before then you're naive at best. I know regular Joe's than can outfish the best guides out there(not me FYI I suck).


----------



## Kirc (Jan 18, 2020)

INSHORE
I would let this bother me alot, but not as much today, .....as has been said if you dont _really understand _what makes a "spot' productive, having it, is sorta worthless for the most part.

The facts are if someone is fishing the same "spot" a guide took them to, the person isn't likely learning shit. They are just simply robbing themselves. If hiring a guide - have some pride and self worth, get educated and find your own "spots"!

OFFSHORE
.....really, really bad idea, especially if its the wrong captain, was private #'s and you get caught sitting on it.

Many are completely ignorant of the time and expenses to get a good list of #'s .....AND keep in mind, one good storm can change everything, what you found may not be there anymore. One area in SW Florida I have between 50-60 "spots" marked up, wrecks and reefs, both public and private To end up with this list I averaged *one *(1) # validated for every *ten *(10) #'s researched, out to 30 miles. Thats upwards of 600 locations, running around burning a bunch of fuel and a tremendous amount of time for those list of #'s.


----------



## Big_Al336 (Jun 9, 2021)

When we go out with a guide we’re paying to fish with a blacked out livewell of premium baits that he spent time locating and catching. His spots are no secret, the secret is knowing when to fish them and why, which we have applied in finding our own spots.


----------



## TheFrequentFlier (Feb 17, 2016)

As some have said, if a geographical “spot” can be labeled as “intellectual property”, wouldn’t the techniques, how’s, why‘s, fly selection, etc, also be intellectual property? I think you could argue the latter is more IP than a geographic “spot.”

It seems some guys are on this thread saying: if a guide throws a clouser minnow or a toad fly, you, as their client, can’t use those same flies ever because INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY!! Or if they show you a new technique, if you go out on your own skiff you’re not allowed to use that either. But a “spot” is intellectual property? Make no mistake, I'm definitely not advocating for the poaching of spots. 

My other point: it’s not really a secret “spot” if it’s conspicuous, or in some parts of Florida with the amount of traffic there’s really no disappearing into the backcountry. Those types of conspicuous places where people are regularly fishing i don’t think can be classified as a “spot.” Unfortunately, that’s just the era we live in in many places. 

Agree there is a spectrum. Don’t steal peoples shit, don’t be a jet skier, and simply, don’t be a dick.

I will say: I went out with guides numerous times in SC. I would never go back to the same "spot"...that's just not fun for me as an angler, who much more enjoys the preparation and pursuit than always bending rods.


----------



## sotilloa1078 (Mar 27, 2014)

Here’s my .02 if that’s your plan, be up front. If someone called me and told me that was their plan. I personally wouldn’t book the day. But that’s just me. There’s enough boat traffic in my neck of the woods from weekend warriors and other guides. I don’t want to be there reason for one more person I have to worry about being where I want to fish.
There aren’t very many secrets any more, if any. There’s just spots within a spot. And that’s information gained by poling endlessly. And info I’m not willing to just give away for a few hundred dollars.


----------



## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

sotilloa1078 said:


> Here’s my .02 if that’s your plan, be up front. If someone called me and told me that was their plan. I personally wouldn’t book the day. But that’s just me. There’s enough boat traffic in my neck of the woods from weekend warriors and other guides. I don’t want to be there reason for one more person I have to worry about being where I want to fish.
> There aren’t very many secrets any more, if any. There’s just spots within a spot. And that’s information gained by poling endlessly. And info I’m not willing to just give away for a few hundred dollars.


I agree with Captain Alonso, just be up front with your intentions... And there's not really any secret spots any more at least in the majority of Florida, not including the Glades and parts of the Big Bend.

Frankly I think you be way better off hiring the guide to run your boat and show you around and where you can and cannot run, etiquette for the area, etc.

I fish with a guide in other areas of Florida just because I want to be on the bow 100% of the time and to learn. I don't have the luxury to fish 200 days as year if you are willing to learn you will.


----------



## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

As the estuaries continue to degrade, there are fewer shallow water options available to hunt fish in. More traffic in small spaces.


----------



## TidewateR (Nov 11, 2009)

Capt.Ron said:


> Im that guide lol


no one is trying to steal your black drum and slot red spots, brah


----------



## Capt.Ron (Mar 5, 2014)

TidewateR said:


> no one is trying to steal your black drum and slot red spots, brah


they don't have to Redchaser sells all 30 miles of them for $4 lol


----------



## Capt.Ron (Mar 5, 2014)

TidewateR said:


> no one is trying to steal your black drum and slot red spots, brah


he's selling me your tarpon spots for $5


----------



## TidewateR (Nov 11, 2009)

Capt.Ron said:


> he's selling me your tarpon spots for $5


they can't be worth more than a $3.50


----------



## Capt.Ron (Mar 5, 2014)

TidewateR said:


> they can't be worth more than a $3.50


----------



## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

Capt.Ron said:


> they don't have to Redchaser sells all 30 miles of them for $4 lol


I'm lowering the price to a buck fifty, I feel bad when people don't get their money's worth.


----------



## BM_Barrelcooker (May 4, 2011)

Hell I just ride around looking for skull buoys no need to pay a guide.


----------



## rovster (Aug 21, 2018)

My perspective as a consumer is I do plan on hiring some guides to teach me an area. I would love to get to know the Everglades and have never fished them but they are close enough that it’s a 90 min drive for me. I plan on being up front with the guides and just want to learn the basics. I’m not looking for secret honey holes just overall concepts and areas to avoid so I can learn the area myself. Realistically when I get my skiff I’ll likely get out there once MAYBE twice a month not enough to kill any spot. Given that approach I don’t expect all the secrets but hopefully enough to get me and my 10 year old boy on some fish…


----------

