# Terrapin Dragon Fly + Carbon



## Apollobeachsam (Dec 14, 2006)

Was over at Joe's shop today checking out Dave Sutton's Terrapin Dragonfly getting fitted for the 1st ever Carbon Fiber Poling platform.  
I got a chance to meet Dave as well.. one heck of nice guy..! 

Check it out.


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## phishphood (Dec 15, 2006)

Looking good. Way to go Joe.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

Looks Tippy! ;D

Dam Joe where AREN'T YOU!

Looks good. Can't wait to hear the verdict on it.

Cheers


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## rcmay (Dec 12, 2006)

> Looks Tippy!  ;D
> 
> Dam Joe where AREN'T YOU!
> 
> ...



I think all of us are going to be seeing alot more Mr. Carbon in the future!


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## flyfshrmn82 (Oct 12, 2007)

It looks like the carbon doesn't make a clean bend.  What's wrong with aluminum powdercoated black instead?  Just my opinion. 

Good looking boat.


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## rcmay (Dec 12, 2006)

> It looks like the carbon doesn't make a clean bend.  What's wrong with aluminum powdercoated black instead?  Just my opinion.
> 
> Good looking boat.


Carbon Poling Platform=somewhere around 15lbs

Aluminum Poling Platform=45lbs+

30lbs off the back of a Microskiff can make a a noticable difference in the draft


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

> 30lbs off the back of a Microskiff can make a a noticable difference in the draft




I'm highly skeptical that 30-40lbs is _noticeable_.


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## phishphood (Dec 15, 2006)

> It looks like the carbon doesn't make a clean bend.  What's wrong with aluminum powdercoated black instead?  Just my opinion.
> 
> Good looking boat.


Hard to tell from the camera angles, but the bends look pretty good to me.(Untrained eye)


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

45 lbs???

You could do that platform right there in stainless steel and it would not weigh 45 lbs. I will take aluminum and for that platform there, there will not be much weight difference.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2008)

> 45 lbs???
> 
> You could do that platform right there in stainless steel and it would not weigh 45 lbs. I will take aluminum and for that platform there, there will not be much weight difference.


What RJ said. I'm guessing 15-18 lbs max for aluminum. :-/

Since someone brought it up, give me aluminum, that way I don't have to worry about point loading it with clamp ons and I can drill and tap for other options.

as always, just my .000000000000000000002 sense.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2008)

> > 30lbs off the back of a Microskiff can make a a noticable difference in the draft
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree. Even my FA on the back of your bhote didn't make that much difference and even less on mine with the added two feet.  These bhotes are all about "balance" anyway, Subtle weight shifts are everything.


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## rcmay (Dec 12, 2006)

> > 30lbs off the back of a Microskiff can make a a noticable difference in the draft
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the 30lb difference might not be noticable, but if your trying to make a lightweight TPS that will go where other boats won't. I like Joe's design and I can see where the weight savings of a Carbon casting platform and a carbon poling platform along with other weight saving modifications can really add up in the long run. Now saving weight on bigger boats, i.e. Ranger, Hewes, etcs is kind of pointless, but thats not who Joe is after.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2008)

> > > 30lbs off the back of a Microskiff can make a a noticable difference in the draft
> >
> >
> >
> ...


Point is we are not talking about a 30-40 pound savings. Sea-n-spots weighed his new monstrosity of a platform for his Lostman and I think he told me it was 35lbs. It was built out of over sized tube with low rails including rod holders. Bill is a big man. Thread already shows the Carbon to be 15lbs and by math we did in the old days, I come up with a 20lb difference for an "elaborate, overbuilt" platform. Normal platforms weigh less.


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## Apollobeachsam (Dec 14, 2006)

All the weight asside... what about the bling bling factor? 

People pay $$ for that bling factor..


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2008)

> All the weight asside... what about the bling bling factor?
> 
> People pay $$ for that bling factor..



Agreed. 

I'm not knocking Carbon Fiber. Just don't try to tell me it's 1/3 the weight of a properly built poling platform. It's light, but not that light and vulnerable to structural damage. I've been breaking it for over 20 years and will continue to buy it.


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## zero_gravity (Dec 14, 2006)

joe smile for the cammera ;D


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## flyfshrmn82 (Oct 12, 2007)

> > 45 lbs???
> >
> > You could do that platform right there in stainless steel and it would not weigh 45 lbs.  I will take aluminum and for that platform there, there will not be much weight difference.
> 
> ...


To-shay my man.  I like having a rod holder on my platform.  I would rather give up 15 lbs for the aluminum platform and have a rod handy to make a quick cast at a fish.   That is just my rational thinking.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

Joe... your next product, Carbon Fiber rod holders! Pimp My Bhot! ;D


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## Apollobeachsam (Dec 14, 2006)

I got Dave to stop by a fishing club meeting on his way home yesterday. Here's the finished product.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

Looks good. Can't wait to hear how it performs after some serious usage.

Cheers


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## MATT (Apr 30, 2007)

"I got Dave to stop by a fishing club meeting "

What meeting, Was there any donuts?
I like donuts....Can't have them but that's with most things I like can't have them....


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## Apollobeachsam (Dec 14, 2006)

> "I got Dave to stop by a fishing club meeting "
> 
> What meeting, Was there any donuts?
> 
> I like donuts....Can't have them but that's with most things I like can't have them....


Little Manatee fishing Club.. here in Southshore. (Ruskin/Apollobeach/Sun City)

There wasn't any donuts but the club has an open bar w/ buy one get one free..


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

If there is more than a 1" difference in draft, and it can be proven, then maybe I'll buy into going light-weight on accessories. Until then it's just a bunch of silly hype.

I haven't seen anyone take the initiative to prove any of it. I have seen people throw around a bunch of claims without anything to back it up.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

JHR, My old casting platform weighed in at 27.2. The Carbon one that replace it... 9lbs... I'm very happy with that!


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

> JHR, My old casting platform weighed in at 27.2. The Carbon one that replace it... 9lbs... I'm very happy with that!



I understand that the carbon accessories are lighter. I wouldn't dispute that. And I understand the bling factor. 

My question is, at what cost is it worth it to save 18lbs? And did you take any real life measurements to determine if that 18lb savings made any noticeable difference in the way your out-dated POS (Ron clued me in yesterday on the phone about that joke ;D ) rides/poles/drafts etc.?


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

it'a a lot easier to move 9lbs as compared to almost 30. ;D One thing that has helped, the old platform use to shift a lot in rough chop. the new one does not dance around on the deck near as much. When looking to purchase a new one you'll find the carbon one is not that different in price. 

plus with my old POS anything to help the bling factor is a big plus... ;D Come down and stand on mine for a day... then make up your mind... ;D

$350 for a half day
$500 for a full day

;D


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## JoeWelbourn (Dec 11, 2006)

Thank you guys, I truly appreciate your support.  First and for most carbon fiber is not the "cure all material".  There are applications that will not benefit from the advantages of carbon fiber.  So no, I am not taking orders for a carbon fiber fishing hats. ;D

The root of the controversy over "carbon fiber verses aluminum" spawns from the same roots as the controversy over "weight verses draft".  I think people innocently get misinformation.  First, understand the fundamental physics of both debates.  What are the properties of carbon fiber and aluminum?  What is the difference between weight and draft? What are the advantages and disadvantages?  As an angler, I encourage everyone to just do your homework.

So to really touch the carbon fiber verses aluminum debate, you have to understand weight and draft are not the same thing.  Draft is the relationship between weight and displacement surface area of the hull.   So the more appropriate questions to ask is what does this boat weight (ready to fish)  and how much flat hull surface area is there displacing the water (with the anglers standing where he fishes).  That surface area is the bottom of the hull (x axis) and the freeboard/side (y-axis).  Great shallow water boats are wide, longer and flat, but they have a rougher ride.  Wide, long boats draft less than narrow short boats WITH THE SAME EXACT TOTAL WEIGHT simply due to less surface area on the bottom of the hull in the water.  So if you have a small boat, weight absolutely impacts draft since to reach the point of buoyancy the boat has to capture hull surface area from the freeboard/sides by sitting lower in the water to float (displace enough water equal to the weight of the boat) creating a deeper draft. Worth noting there are instances when you want your boat to be heavy---I mean raw weight (mass) not draft.  Offshore boats benefit in ride from the weight (mass) in rough water conditions at the expense of fuel costs.   

Whether the debate is carbon fiber verses aluminum or draft verses weight, make your build or buy decision to leverage the advantages of a particular material while minimizing the disadvantages of your choices.  Pick aspects of the "trades-offs" that are important to you and make your decision. At the end of the day there is ALWAYS a trade-off including the "bling" factor ApolloBeach Sam discussed.   Whether we admit it or not, people like to buy aestetics (pretty stuff). 

So carbon fiber might not ever totally replace aluminum in the skiff industry.  But let us not forget in the beginning boats and airplanes were made from wood and cloth skins, then aluminum, then fiberglass (early generation of composite known as FRP: fiber reinforced plastics), now carbon fiber and aromatic polyamide (Aramid/Kevlar) with epoxies; the next generation of FRPs).  

Here is some simple insight into the impact of carbon fiber on structural engineering in aerospace.  Keep in mind if carbon fiber fails in aircraft, people die so the stakes are higher than a poling platform on a skiff. Composite materials are "changing the paradigm of the industry [aerospace], which was based on aluminum," says James C. Seferis, a materials professor at the University of Washington who has consulted for Boeing. (Source: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_25/b3938037_mz011.htm)  

Here is the reason Boeing built the wings of the new 787 airline using carbon fiber.  Engineers estimate if they test the wings to fail the wing tips will fold back aroun totouch the fuseluge like a big heart BEFORE breaking. (Source: http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/06/the-new-boeing-.html)

Lastly, here are excerpts from casual conversations I have personally had with a few legends/experts in the shallow water skiff industry that I respect and have been honored to receive feedback for my carbon fiber based products.  These are not paid endorsements. Tim Mahaffey called me this morning to say you can absolutely tell my story:

Hal Chittum (original founder of the original Hells Bay): Hal called me to say, "...you got it [TillerPillar design] right. I missed it when I was making tiller extensions [he used aluminum].  You have a simple design and nice handle.  I would be interested in using your TillerPillar on my new tiller skiff.  Let’s discuss building a poling platform for my new high-end skiffs."

Bob Hewes (founder of Hewes boats): "...do you have a business card?  I am going to have my folks give you a call."

Capt Rick Murphy (Host of Sportsman's Adventures and the Chevy Florida Fishing Report): "...I think you have a great product, I think you are on to something here.” 

Mike Conner (Editor Shallow Water Angler magazine) "I think you have great products.  Send me photos and a descriptions for a product review in Shallow Water Angler…I have been in this business a long time and have seen many new products, your products are truly innovative and will change the shallow water industry. It has been a while since the industry has seen this type of innovation.”

Tim Mahaffey (world class tournament fly fisherman from Tournament Trails: http://www.mbcboats.com/ttblog/?cat=6): "...how do I get one of your CastingPillars on the bow of my boat.  I moved a 5 pound anchor from the bow of my tournament Mavrick Mirage 17 HPX-V (1170 lbs with 90HP) to the stern and gained 1 MPH.  Removing 15-20 lbs from the bow of my bow is a huge advantage for me. That is the difference between winning and losing in a professional tournament for my style of fishing."

Greg and Bryan Watts (Team of The Year and Championship awards on both the IFA Redfish Tour and the ESPN Redfish Cup series): "Joe....great platform...you have a good thing here. I would replace the turnbuckle to a more polished/stronger turnbuckle and the stainless pad eye for a carbon fiber rib for adjustable mounting points. Can we get one that two guys can fish from on the bow of our boats for tournaments?" 

So at the end of the day, carbon fiber is here to stay and hopefully coexist with all of the other material historically used to built great flats skiff (wood, fiberglass, aluminum, carbon fiber, aramid/Kevlar, etc).

Thank you for reading and letting me contribute to the discussion.  Please call me anytime to extend the debate or if anyone ever needs any help or advice.  As you may have recognize, I like to talk to people about fishing and skiffs.  Just give me a call. We can only improve what we learn more about. I am always open to any criticism: good or bad. I see both a opportunies to grow professionally. I welcome frank, direct feedback.

BIG THANKS to Capt Dave Sutton and ApolloBeachSam for their time at the shop and taking photos.


Joe


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

Nice response. Keep up the good work.


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

OK,  when some guide sits there saying adjusting his 5 lb anchor gives him an additional 1 mph in his boat, I am now gonna call bullcrap.  So many things can play into that much more than adjusting where you put a 5 lb anchor on a 1200 lb boat.  There are methods and controlled tests to proving how things work and if they work.  Not fish stories. He would do better removing the casting platform not for weight but to improve wind resistance which will have a much bigger effect.

Several things I question.  One is point loading and one is sheer force.  Yes when you have a something as long as a commercial airline wing loaded over the length you can have an incredible amount of deflection (length of movement).  Planes with aluminum airframe wings still have incredible amounts of deflection.  I think a 747 wing moves 15 during regular flight.  That is the tip in a vertical direction.  But now take something 3 or 4 feet long and those flex characteristics drastically change.  Tom in Orl can relate to this one.  I know this example uses a different material, but here it is. A stiffy hybrid has a lot of flex and pretty good strength from what I put my pole through. He ran around the back of a boat that had one sticking out and snapped it in a second.  Sheer force popped it clean in half pretty easy with only a few feet sticking out.

If someone backs into a dock and the first point of contact is the platform.  How is the impact resistance?  Just a like can happen on anything hollow that uses a strong exterior fiber.  A hard hit could put a ding in it.  THe fiber won't be punctured/penetrated but the integrity of the structure will be compromised.  I know this won't happen with aluminum

How is the UV resistance of the material out in direct sunlight all the time? How resistant is the resin to abrasion and wear and tear?

How did you mount the steps between the two supports and what are the steps made out of?


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## ucfsae81 (Dec 5, 2007)

Looks cool but theres a weight limit when it comes to carbon fiber


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

Good grief....

My Whipray with a Merc 25hp does 42mph in a 3 foot chop. If I remove the 72qt cooler filled with beer, it does 45mph.

I climbed Mt. Everest by myself with my hands tied behind my back.

My F-150 does 0-60 in under 3 seconds.

I caught a 10lb bonefish, 30lb permit, and 180lb tarpon on a bass popper with my 5wt all on the same day.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2008)

> Good grief....
> 
> My Hot Whipray with a Merc 25hp does 42mph in a 3 foot chop. If I remove the 72qt cooler filled with beer, it does 45mph.
> 
> ...



Is that ewe Bhilly? ;D ;D ;D


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

Oh, SMACK! ;D


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

> Good grief....
> 
> My Whipray with a Merc 25hp does 42mph in a 3 foot chop.  If I remove the 72qt cooler filled with beer, it does 45mph.
> 
> ...



you forgot,

floats in the morning dew ;D


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## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

While fishing this past Sunday, I had a can of Pringles in the rear hatch of my boat. My buddy took them out, ate a couple chips and then moved the can of Pringles to the front hatch. Just by moving the can of Pringles, we were able decrease the poling draft by 2 inches. Amazing!!


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

You can also gain extra speed by eating Mexican food the night before. :fartingsmiley:


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## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

> But now take something 3 or 4 feet long and those flex characteristics drastically change. Tom in Orl can relate to this one. I know this example uses a different material, but here it is. A stiffy hybrid has a lot of flex and pretty good strength from what I put my pole through. He ran around the back of a boat that had one sticking out and snapped it in a second. Sheer force popped it clean in half pretty easy with only a few feet sticking out.


 

[smiley=hidesbehindsofa.gif]


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## rcmay (Dec 12, 2006)

Joe, the new pictures look great(thanks to Sam's D3). I am certain we will see alot of these on microskiffs in the near future.


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## flyfshrmn82 (Oct 12, 2007)

Why would a casting platform made of aluminum weigh 27 lbs? It sounds to me like there is a 1/2" thick slab of marble that is across the top of this platform. I am also suspect to the longevity, durability, and reliability of carbon vs. aluminum. Carbon definitely has its applications in the world. It is a great material and will be around for a long time. But if the performance of a boat (not a canoe) is noticeably impacted by 10lbs at the bow and/or 15lbs at the stern, then there may be other things to be concerned about.


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## flyfshrmn82 (Oct 12, 2007)

What..... :-/......Was it something I said. Where did everyone go? :'(


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

> What..... :-/......Was it something I said. Where did everyone go? :'(



Since it been "advertised" on no less than 4 fishing/boating forums, everyone who could possibly have an opinion on it has probably posted it somewhere. :-X


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## BobFLA (Feb 15, 2007)

"Spoon-Fly" will be the next boat outfitted with a carbon platform...come see it at the Capmel tourney next weekend.
LT25 rigged for fly fishing.

Best regards
Bob


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2008)

like, gag me with some carbon fiber already!


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## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

> like, gag me with some carbon fiber already!


I heard you didnt have a gag reflex...........


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2008)

> > like, gag me with some carbon fiber already!
> 
> 
> I heard you didnt have a gag reflex...........



Makes me wonder where you hang. :


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