# What's comparable to an Orvis PM 10+



## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

I bought a barely used Orvis Power Matrix 10 from a buddy as my first fly rod a few years ago.

Its a nice casting rod. Putting an SA Mastery Saltwater line on it really woke it up.

I might be willing to trade the old PM 8 wt for a new Hydros. *lol* I could use a 9 wt.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Harlieb3 said:


> I had an Orvis PM 10+ 9' 8wt paired with a DXR 9-10 from 1996. I loved this rod and its fast stiffness. The tip broke and it was replaced by Orvis with a Hydros. I hate it. I talked to Orris and they said send it back. Once they received the rod and called me it was apparent that they had nothing that would compare. They stated that the new tech has given their rods more "Feel". I don't question wether these are better rods but it will take me to relearn how to cast them. I even went from my 8wt and had them replace it with a 9wt to help turn over larger salt flies in the wind. What do you think? Is there anything out there that would compare to my old rod or do I need to adjust? Anyone interested in a brand new Hydros 4pc 9wt?


So let me just clarify what you are saying for my understanding. You had an old Orvis 2-piece Power Matrix 10 9ft-8wt and sent it into Orvis (rubber or cork fighting butt?). Orvis said since the rod was discontinued, they would replace it with an Hydros (not the Hydros II). However, you requested you recieve the rod in a 9wt since you wanted to throw and turn over bigger flies.

1.) Was the original PM 10 - 8wt a Tip-Flex or Mid-flex if you recall?

2.) Are you using the same reel?

3.) What flyline are you using? 

4.) What "didn't" you like about the replacement rod?

5.) What was the exact model of the replacement rod?

Ted


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## Harlieb3 (Dec 16, 2013)

1.) It was a tip flex (cork) Their top of the line at the time.

2.) Same reel. Orvis DXR 9-10 wt for extra line capacity.

3.) An Orvis 9wt tarpon floating line.

4.) Very flexible through the middle of the rod. Explained to me as "Feel". I guess I like the broomstick "Feel". I'm struggling to get it to load and shot line. Can't cast as far. I'm no great fly caster but I fish a 2 Orvis, 5 Scott and 9wt. I'm able to cast bead heads with 2wt so I'm a competent fly caster.

5.) Not a (H2) Helios 2 it's a Hydros.


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## muskyonfly (Jul 4, 2016)

With your PM10 8 weight were you fishing a 8 or a 9 weight line? I have a lot of Orvis rods and they tend to perform better if you over line them. I have a 9 foot 7 weight hydros that won't throw a seven weight but does nicely with an 8 weight line


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## Harlieb3 (Dec 16, 2013)

I do the same, go 1 wt up on line. It seems really easy to load the rod up that way and then it has power. Maybe with the hydros you need to stay with the matching line wt.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2016)

Harlieb3 said:


> I had an Orvis PM 10+ 9' 8wt paired with a DXR 9-10 from 1996. I loved this rod and its fast stiffness. The tip broke and it was replaced by Orvis with a Hydros. I hate it. I talked to Orris and they said send it back. Once they received the rod and called me it was apparent that they had nothing that would compare. They stated that the new tech has given their rods more "Feel". I don't question wether these are better rods but it will take me to relearn how to cast them. I even went from my 8wt and had them replace it with a 9wt to help turn over larger salt flies in the wind. What do you think? Is there anything out there that would compare to my old rod or do I need to adjust? Anyone interested in a brand new Hydros 4





Harlieb3 said:


> I had an Orvis PM 10+ 9' 8wt paired with a DXR 9-10 from 1996. I loved this rod and its fast stiffness. The tip broke and it was replaced by Orvis with a Hydros. I hate it. I talked to Orris and they said send it back. Once they received the rod and called me it was apparent that they had nothing that would compare. They stated that the new tech has given their rods more "Feel". I don't question wether these are better rods but it will take me to relearn how to cast them. I even went from my 8wt and had them replace it with a 9wt to help turn over larger salt flies in the wind. What do you think? Is there anything out there that would compare to my old rod or do I need to adjust? Anyone interested in a brand new Hydros 4pc 9wt?


That PM 10+ might be about as old as a 2 pc #9 Trident Orvis replaced with a 2 pc #9 T3 tip flex years ago. Probably sold before the Zero G series, which was a fantastic #8 casting rod. Would have to look in catalogs, but haven't really cast a Power Matrix in comparison outside of a 4 pc tip flex TLS Power Matrix #11 & most likely a couple ounces heavier.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Muskyonfly asked the next question I was going to ask. So to clarify that, were you using that 9wt Orvis Tarpon taper on the 8wt PM 10 tip Flex that was sent in? Or did you buy that line for the new replacement rod (9wt Hydros)? I also hate to ask this, but is that a new line? If not, how old is the line?

Yea I meant.... "not the Helios 2, but the Hydros (and assume not the old Helios either)."

Do you have an Orvis shop near you? I suggest taking the rod and reel and going there. Once there, ask to try that reel and flyline on a new Orvis Recon. It might be more in-line in what you are looking for out of an Orvis rod. I've thrown the Recon and it is a very decent rod for the price range. Also on a surprizing note, their new Clearwater is very fast and extremely light weight for a low priced mid range rod. I think it's part of some of the new things Orvis is trying to do to get back into the mid. range game. Saw it in BPS and sort of reminded me of TFO's BVK (maybe not quite as fast) and for the little less price ($225).

I think a newer rod that was discontinued that would have been closer to that PM 10 would have been the T3 tip flex.

One thing to remember is in generalities, an 8wt is a different animal than a 9wt (which is normally stiffer and clunkier than a 8wt, but is a good rod to have for the reasons you've described). So it might take some time getting use to.

Trail Blazer - The PM 10 series came out in the early to mid 90's after the HLS's but before the Tridents or the T3's. I also think they only came out with them in a 2 piece model.

What area did you say you are in?


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## Harlieb3 (Dec 16, 2013)

Yes, I usually go up 1 at on line to help load rod.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2016)

Harlieb3 said:


> I had an Orvis PM 10+ 9' 8wt paired with a DXR 9-10 from 1996. I loved this rod and its fast stiffness. The tip broke and it was replaced by Orvis with a Hydros. I hate it. I talked to Orris and they said send it back. Once they received the rod and called me it was apparent that they had nothing that would compare. They stated that the new tech has given their rods more "Feel". I don't question wether these are better rods but it will take me to relearn how to cast them. I even went from my 8wt and had them replace it with a 9wt to help turn over larger salt flies in the wind. What do you think? Is there anything out there that would compare to my old rod or do I need to adjust? Anyone interested in a brand new Hydros 4pc 9wt?


Orvis had Trident PM-10 & PM-10+ along with HLS rods back in 1997 in addition to just Power Matrix rods. In 1999 they offered Trident & Trident TL rods, in 2001 Trident TL & Silver Label, in 2002 they had the new T3 & Trident TLS series.


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## Harlieb3 (Dec 16, 2013)

Sorry, mine was a "Trident" PM 10+ Tip Flex 1996


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## Harlieb3 (Dec 16, 2013)

Is there another brand that makes something like my old rod, fast, tip flex and stiff?
I would imagine it would be a less expensive rod also.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Harlieb3 said:


> Is there another brand that makes something like my old rod, fast, tip flex and stiff?
> I would imagine it would be a less expensive rod also.


Harlie3, you basically have a free rod with that replacement. Just got to get it aligned with what you are use to, or ask for an alternative rod or align yourself with the rod.

So, this is what I'm seeing so far. You went from a fast stiff rod and over lined it with a heavy tarpon taper 9wt line, which is more like a 9.5-10wt weight line. So you actually made that rod "feel" like a heavy med fast rod with a more progressive action that helped you "feel" the rod load. In a nut shell, by over lining it with that heavy line, you turned a tip flex into a mid flex.

How old is the fly line btw?

Now you put the same line onto a faster lighter rod, which has caused your casting style and senses to go all out of wack. Yes that rod is not super stiff for a 9wt but will feel fast, which (coming from trout rods) doesn't feel right.

To align that rod with your method or style of casting, you'd need to over line it to a 10wt line. However, that line will feel heavy and clunky to you and you will feel worn out at the end of the day.

Here is the solution for that rod. Call Orvis and ask them if they have the Mid Flex version of the Hydros 9wt If so, ask if you can swap it siting the fact that you are having a hard time casting it. By doing so, with that same line, you now can achive the basic "feel" that you were accustomed to. Again, if there is an Orvis dealer near you, ask to see if they have one to try out (9wt Hydros Mid Flex) with your same reel and 9wt fly line (Orvis Tarpon Taper 9wt floater).

I hope that makes sense.

To change "you" in the casting dynamics to throw that rod you now hold with that same line, 1st stretch and dress the line good with some good fly line dressing (I'm guessing that line is at least a few yrs old). Tighten up the travel path of the rod to be straighter and shorten your stroke. Double hauling is a must. Don't punch the "shoot" and aerialize more like (like the whole head (30+ feet) out of the rod tip to feel the load before you shoot it. Watch some of Lefty Krey's videos on fly casting and how to tighten your loops. With the right touch, that rod will wake up and talk to ya!

Ted Haas


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

Not so long ago I tried out a Hydros 9wt with the recommended Orvis 9 line, as I remember, my immediate feeling was that the rod lacked feedback, it cast the line well but I totally understand what the OP is talking about. I am under the impression that they don't give an action choice on these rods, so maybe the best strategy would be to go back to an 8wt and use the 9 line on it or a new line that weighs heavy in an 8, like a Wulff.
Also do as Ted said, work on your casting technique, heavier weight rods are a TOTALLY different animal than trout rods and absolutely require the extra oomph of the double haul.
JC


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## Harlieb3 (Dec 16, 2013)

Thanks for everyone's input. That's kinda where I left it with Orvis. The technology from the Trident PM 10+ has long since improved. The rod I have now is technically better. I need to figure out how to use it. Thanks Ted, for a starting place. My old rod was what I learned to cast with. I've always caught fish and have always been able to get a fly to where it needs to go but I also knew my casting was not technically sound. Perhaps this old dog needs to learn a new trick BTW Orvis has been a World Class company and I have nothing but good things to say about them. They have great customer service and tech support. What I wanted in my rod just isn't there anymore because it's 20 year old tech. I'm sure once I figure it out, it will wake up and talk to me Thanks again. This is the reason I'm on this forum.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

One thing to also note, like someone said above, matching the right flyline is important to bring out the best in a fly rod. I see you are in the Miami area. I'd look up "The Fly Shop of Miami." Not sure if he's still there, but see if Dave Olsen is still the manager. He's one of the best fly casters in the State and is a IFFF Master casting instructor. Take the rod and reel to him, let him feel the flyline and give you a good recommendation for what fly line to use, if the line is either ready for replacing or you may think the line might be part of the problem, especially if you decide to keep the rod and not trade it out for a mid flex, Recon or something different (Sorry for the run-on sentence ). Do check with him about fly casting lessons. Nothing replaces good casting techniques.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing. 

Ted


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2016)

Harlieb3 said:


> Sorry, mine was a "Trident" PM 10+ Tip Flex 1996


Didn't have time to research the earlier catalogs, but remember Power Matrix rods from the early 90's. '96 was about the time a saltwater Trident #9 was needed & it could cast 90' to mangroves. The T3 seemed about the same except with more tip flex instead of in the butt section. Have missed casting newer rod versions & improvements for the past years other than a Sage One #8, which reminded me of the Zero Gravity rods in holding a false cast with about 50-60 feet in the air; but stiffer, faster & less flex. Not sure how the Hydros would compare, but read it's a "stiff" rod action on a Helios blank with lesser yet 7/8 oz. heavier hardware, more of a dry fly action. Also read a #8 Recon is supposedly as good as the Helios II up to about 80' with lesser hardware, but praise for Hydros rods seems lacking compared to Access rods in a chronology.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2016)

Backwater said:


> Muskyonfly asked the next question I was going to ask. So to clarify that, were you using that 9wt Orvis Tarpon taper on the 8wt PM 10 tip Flex that was sent in? Or did you buy that line for the new replacement rod (9wt Hydros)? I also hate to ask this, but is that a new line? If not, how old is the line?
> 
> Yea I meant.... "not the Helios 2, but the Hydros (and assume not the old Helios either)."
> 
> ...


Orvis bamboo fly rods seemed to be overlined with the stated designated line rating so the rule of thumb was to downsize from an #8 to a #7 or a #6 to a #5 & so on. Old Superfines would cast a line size up or down & with some rods even 2 line sizes easily, but the newer graphites line sizes seem better adjusted as advertised. The Orvis Fly shop on Summerland going towards Sanibel closed & that was when a Zero Gravity rod was last cast. Since then they have had a number of "new" fly rods in a Helios ZG, Helios, Access, Hydros, Helios II & Recon which, when theoretically compared probably wouldn't have been all that much better than a ZG holding an additional 15' in the air as to false casting a T3. At that rate would add an addtional 15' per rod & shooting the whole fly line plus some backing on every cast..................where only those New England striper strippers cast like that !
About an hour south of ya........


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

trailblazerEXT said:


> Orvis bamboo fly rods seemed to be overlined with the stated designated line rating so the rule of thumb was to downsize from an #8 to a #7 or a #6 to a #5 & so on. Old Superfines would cast a line size up or down & with some rods even 2 line sizes easily, but the newer graphites line sizes seem better adjusted as advertised. The Orvis Fly shop on Summerland going towards Sanibel closed & that was when a Zero Gravity rod was last cast. Since then they have had a number of "new" fly rods in a Helios ZG, Helios, Access, Hydros, Helios II & Recon which, when theoretically compared probably wouldn't have been all that much better than a ZG holding an additional 15' in the air as to false casting a T3. At that rate would add an addtional 15' per rod & shooting the whole fly line plus some backing on every cast..................where only those New England striper strippers cast like that !
> About an hour south of ya........


The bamboos were so slow and progressive, that you could in fact get away with a lighter line to speed up the rod.

Funny how many Orvis shops have closed in Florida. They are more supported up north in trout country. The closest Orvis shop near the OP's location is down in Key Largo.


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