# What Is Your Definition of Burning a Flat



## TheFrequentFlier

Sorry, I'm having trouble picturing the layout of the islands, would you mind sending the lat/long so I can better answer your question?


----------



## Acuna

LOL


----------



## Half Shell

No matter your definition, I saw it in Flamingo this past Sunday (May 17th).


----------



## sjrobin

Whats up Acuna? Knowing the intent of other human's poling skiffs is impossible but if you are poling down a shoreline with the wind at your back most shallow water fish hunters would give you a shoreline but how much distance is the variable. A mile? Two? if there is an island down the shoreline how is the competing skiff to know if you intend to drift the water between the island and the shore. Drifting and poling are certainly different. Rarely happens, but I try to determine if a skiff or boat is drifting or working with a push pole into or quartering a breeze and give them plenty of room. The direction of the bow as you make visual contact is all you have to go on. 
There is a very short time period during the day when the direction you push will not effect visibility, otherwise, visibility, not wind, should determine your poling direction no matter if you are hunting a drain, island, shoreline, flat, or your water front home canal. Tower and airboats making short loops around a poling skiff on a shoreline are the worst.


----------



## AggieFlyGuy

The way I see it, this issue is like trying to define pornography - tough to do globally, but you certainly know it when you see it. 

Say you have a shallow, protected flat with access to deeper water immediately adjacent, stay in the deeper water. Yes, even if it takes you more time to get where you are going. This holds true even if noone is currently fishing the flat. The result is the same and the next guy who wades or poles the flat will reap what you sow.

Burning shorelines is inexcusable anywhere, anytime. End of discussion.

The rest is (or should be) common sense. I think we need to accept the fact that many of the people who run on you are simply ignorant. They have had no mentors teach them ropes and they know little or nothing about fishing and how their actions affects the experience of you or others around them. When you want to drive a car, you take a class and are tested on the basics. When you buy a boat, they hand you the keys and off you go. I try to be more patient now than I was before when I would routinely salute the offender with my middle finger.

What I cannot stand is the tower boat guys that will run all over hell and back playing Florida Georgia Line, Kenny Chesney or some other tripe as loud as possible while cutting figure 8s across a flat and then leave without shutting down. I am not even sure the tower boat guys actually fish.

If you guys will excuse me, I am going to pour a bourbon ad take my blood pressure meds...


----------



## Half Shell

AggieFlyGuy said:


> T
> 
> Burning shorelines is inexcusable anywhere, anytime. End of discussion.
> 
> What I cannot stand is the tower boat guys that will run all over hell and back playing Florida Georgia Line, Kenny Chesney or some other tripe as loud as possible while cutting figure 8s across a flat and then leave without shutting down. I am not even sure the tower boat guys actually fish.


Burning shorelines pisses me off; I can't tell you how many times this past weekend I'm thinking one more cast and then I'm moving over to that next point... then a skiff with a 2-stroke at WOT comes burning by 10ft off the point.

I think the worst Sunday was at East Cape Canal when a very nice tower boat comes blazing in at about 30 mph and abruptly shuts down on the west side of the river (40 ft from me). I was already at the mouth on the east side of the river trying to cast to tarpon rolling that he basically anchored on top of. Neither of us caught anything there before I decided to move to a new location.


----------



## Acuna

I too am not sure tower boat guys actually fish either. 

It was a small (in my opinion) flat. But I am not going to say it was totally bad behavior by the other boat. He wasn't burning a shoreline at all. It is just that this guy ran over some really nice water when he could have stayed in deeper water and the fishing would have been better for both of us. I felt based on my experience that him running right through the flat put the fish in an uncooperative mood. Big time.


----------



## Tx_Whipray

AggieFlyGuy said:


> The way I see it, this issue is like trying to define pornography - tough to do globally, but you certainly know it when you see it.
> 
> Say you have a shallow, protected flat with access to deeper water immediately adjacent, stay in the deeper water. Yes, even if it takes you more time to get where you are going. This holds true even if noone is currently fishing the flat. The result is the same and the next guy who wades or poles the flat will reap what you sow.
> 
> Burning shorelines is inexcusable anywhere, anytime. End of discussion.
> 
> The rest is (or should be) common sense. I think we need to accept the fact that many of the people who run on you are simply ignorant. They have had no mentors teach them ropes and they know little or nothing about fishing and how their actions affects the experience of you or others around them. When you want to drive a car, you take a class and are tested on the basics. When you buy a boat, they hand you the keys and off you go. I try to be more patient now than I was before when I would routinely salute the offender with my middle finger.
> 
> What I cannot stand is the tower boat guys that will run all over hell and back playing Florida Georgia Line, Kenny Chesney or some other tripe as loud as possible while cutting figure 8s across a flat and then leave without shutting down. I am not even sure the tower boat guys actually fish.
> 
> If you guys will excuse me, I am going to pour a bourbon ad take my blood pressure meds...


Sorry Bro, I'm fishing a tournament!!! (shouted across the water over his stereo pumping FGL)


----------



## Drifter

I don't know if I care if someone is "burning a flat" as much as they are getting to close. It is what it is in alot of areas if people drive over good fishing. But man when they are closer then about 300 ft Im just like dude wtf are you doing. I was poling myself around in Islamorada not boats in site and this guy rolls up motor ripping in a no motor zone, the stops like 100 ft away and throws is net out. Close enough that I could easily talk to him. That guy should go to prison.


----------



## mro

As far as fishing goes I've been spoiled and blessed at the same time. Some of my earliest memories are of my dad home on leave for a few days at a time. Which he took me fishing maybe only an hour or two but he did. This was in the late 50's. Some have heard about "the good ole days"... 
I got to live them. 
The way you guys are talking about the spoilers has been going on since the first two guys who ever ran across each other out in the boonies.


----------



## sjrobin

mro said:


> As far as fishing goes I've been spoiled and blessed at the same time. Some of my earliest memories are of my dad home on leave for a few days at a time. Which he took me fishing maybe only an hour or two but he did. This was in the late 50's. Some have heard about "the good ole days"...
> I got to live them.
> The way you guys are talking about the spoilers has been going on since the first two guys who ever ran across each other out in the boonies.


Big difference hunters running into each other in a wilderness vs boats/skiffs running into each other in open saltwater bays and gulf. The exception being the Everglades or other places with tall mangroves. On low profile poling skiffs, if the pusher is off the platform they can be tough to see. Kayaks just have to live with being difficult to see. In many cases there is enough room for multiple poling skiffs to hunt a zone as long as the incoming and outgoing skiffs use a little common sense. Poling skiffs can hunt the same lines a few hours apart with the last skiff seeing more fish due to water levels, skiff design, visibility, etc. Not referring to tarpon migration routes around sand bars, channels, or bridges where location and approach can be important. Humans attempting to base their entire success or failure on shallow water spots when hunting fish, even with poling skiffs, can create conflict. As a shallow water fish hunter, when the water is crowded, especially tournaments, this restricts my ability to move with the fish or find undisturbed shallow water. Even with the push pole and quiet six inch draft.


----------



## jsnipes

In the areas I fish, mostly Galveston to POC, where there is typically a "flat" and a "drop-off" area, I would say anytime you are running on top of the "flat", you are burning the flat (which is usually a shoreline).

Now, certain areas have well known running lanes and there are potentially exceptions (e.g. it's blowing 30mph) but that's how I would define it.


----------



## Surffshr

A tower boat pulling a tube down here last Sunday was damn sure doing it...unbelievable.


----------



## Dallas Furman

The first thought that comes to mind is a tower boat running a shoreline or zigzagging a flat. Shutting down to pick one fish from a school and firein’ back up to continue on looking for another school not giving a damn who’s fishing their Fuc...messing up.

Second case would be a boat running a shoreline for no good reason, pulling out to go around you and then tucking back into the shoreline that you are obviously working.

There are certainly exceptions to consider such as weather conditions but for the most part there is no reason to run skinny just because you can. Many times I think it is done intentionally.


----------



## AggieFlyGuy

It does not help that boat dealers are aggressively marketing the shallow water capabilities of their various tunnel and cat style hulls. People legitimately think that because their boat will run in 6 inches, they should run in 6 inches of water. It is branded and sold as "cool." 

I had a ******* in an air boat literally run across dry land from one lake to another very small lake (where I was fishing after having poled nearly a quarter mile to access). When I raised my hands in a "WTF" gesture, he stopped and called me an elitist pri$k. I hate to say it, but there is a group out there that views skiff owners, and particularly fly fishermen, as arrogant people with an out sized sense of entitlement. They care not that it is an entirely different thing to catch drum on peeled shrimp than it is to present a ball of feathers to a spooked red fish in six inches of water.


----------



## BrownDog

I find lack of knowledge more of a concern with others on the water than any malicious intent. 

the gut check usually suffices for burning a flat, if it feels wrong it probably is.


----------



## Capnredfish

You seem to have a pretty good understanding of the situation. It’s going to happen. He might not know about the canals. Doesn’t make his move right either. From your story it doesn’t appear he set out to ruin your day.

Guy sees you poling. No idea you plan to drift at some point. So he runs it. Maybe not the best choice. If it’s going to take you a half hour to get to where I plan to go. Then I consider that plenty of space and go for the area about that far away from you. I try to guess where someone is going. Had he set up on ahead of you on your island, then we have a problem.
We have shorelines here that could take more than a day to pole. Should one guy get that shoreline for the day? No. 
Too many people nowadays. Need to find Gilligans island. Then you might have a chance of nobody ruing your day.


----------



## Lowtidelowlife

Drifter said:


> I don't know if I care if someone is "burning a flat" as much as they are getting to close. It is what it is in alot of areas if people drive over good fishing. But man when they are closer then about 300 ft Im just like dude wtf are you doing. I was poling myself around in Islamorada not boats in site and this guy rolls up motor ripping in a no motor zone, the stops like 100 ft away and throws is net out. Close enough that I could easily talk to him. That guy should go to prison.


That was me dude. There were solid blue crab in that pothole.


----------



## mro

sjrobin said:


> Big difference


Not to me. 
There are maroons just about everywhere now a days. But there were some even "back in the day". Although there were much fewer people in general, there was still the same percentage (maybe a hair less back then) of people who were never taught to give the people already there some space, or were not smart enough or just didn't care.
If you need proof just go to a boat ramp on a weekend, bring a chair, have one of your favorite beverages in hand and watch the show.


----------



## RJTaylor

AggieFlyGuy said:


> It does not help that boat dealers are aggressively marketing the shallow water capabilities of their various tunnel and cat style hulls. People legitimately think that because their boat will run in 6 inches, they should run in 6 inches of water. It is branded and sold as "cool."
> 
> *I had a ******* in an air boat *literally run across dry land from one lake to another very small lake (where I was fishing after having poled nearly a quarter mile to access). When I raised my hands in a "WTF" gesture, he stopped and called me an elitist pri$k. *I hate to say it, but there is a group out there that views skiff owners, and particularly fly fishermen, as arrogant people with an out sized sense of entitlement. *They care not that it is an entirely different thing to catch drum on peeled shrimp than it is to present a ball of feathers to a spooked red fish in six inches of water.


How would they get that idea?


----------



## Tx_Whipray

AggieFlyGuy said:


> It does not help that boat dealers are aggressively marketing the shallow water capabilities of their various tunnel and cat style hulls. People legitimately think that because their boat will run in 6 inches, they should run in 6 inches of water. It is branded and sold as "cool."
> 
> I had a ******* in an air boat literally run across dry land from one lake to another very small lake (where I was fishing after having poled nearly a quarter mile to access). When I raised my hands in a "WTF" gesture, he stopped and called me an elitist pri$k. I hate to say it, but there is a group out there that views skiff owners, and particularly fly fishermen, as arrogant people with an out sized sense of entitlement. They care not that it is an entirely different thing to catch drum on peeled shrimp than it is to present a ball of feathers to a spooked red fish in six inches of water.


At one of my favorite spots around Rockport (up towards the refuge) air boats have worn a slew into a lake that used to only be accessible by a winding creek maybe a 1/4 mile long. It's deep enough that the creek is starting to silt up. Pisses me off to no end.


----------



## Dallas Furman

Initially (and I don’t know if it still is) access to the refuge was taken away because of the air boats jumping from back lake to back lake over land instead of staying in a waterway tearing up the grasses and such. Instead of TPWD enforcing the appropriate laws, or making the area a no combustion motor zone, it was taken away from everyone. Another knee jerk reaction. Instead of punishing those responsible everyone is punished. Same goes for burning flats or shorelines, there is a law on the books in Texas related to harassment of wildlife that refers to harrying, herding, or driving fish in an attempt to take fish that’s never enforced. I have no problems with a tower boat underway using a trolling motor but do take issue with the run and gun style all too often seen disturbing miles of fishable water. There should be a law that when the combustion engine is running, all persons aboard shall have their feet on the deck of the boat


----------



## RJTaylor

Dallas Furman said:


> Initially (and I don’t know if it still is) access to the refuge was taken away because of the air boats jumping from back lake to back lake over land instead of staying in a waterway tearing up the grasses and such. Instead of TPWD enforcing the appropriate laws, or making the area a no combustion motor zone, it was taken away from everyone. Another knee jerk reaction. Instead of punishing those responsible everyone is punished. Same goes for burning flats or shorelines, *there is a law on the books in Texas related to harassment of wildlife that refers to harrying, herding, or driving fish in an attempt to take fish that’s never enforced. *I have no problems with a tower boat underway using a trolling motor but do take issue with the run and gun style all too often seen disturbing miles of fishable water. There should be a law that when the combustion engine is running, all persons aboard shall have their feet on the deck of the boat


You think it's unenforced, because you've probably never seen the actual practice that created this law. Run and Gun fishing is far from the herding of redfish that used to take place.


----------



## Dallas Furman

Not only have I seen it, I have been guilty of corralling redfish, although many years ago.

Can’t say I’m proud of it today. My tune has changed quite a lot over the last 35 or so years. I like to think I’m not the heathen I once was.


----------



## Acuna

Capnredfish said:


> From your story it doesn’t appear he set out to ruin your day.


For sure, I don't think he was out to ruin my day. The canals are super duper obvious. There is no way you can not figure that out if you've fished this flat even one time before...


----------



## scissorhands

Definition of burning a flat? Someone who runs shallow on a flat with the intention of finding fish. Well thats my definition.


----------



## Steve_Mevers

If in doubt don't do it. If you are approaching a flat, and someone is fishing it, and you have any doubt as to what their intentions are, give them the flat and go around it...period.


----------



## Dave Neal

Acuna said:


> Ok, first and foremost, I am not trying to start a political debate and I am not trying to throw shade. It is an honest question: what is your definition of burning a flat? When does it become bad behavior?
> 
> Scenario:
> 
> I am working a shoreline between two islands. There is probably a half mile of totally fishable flats between the two islands. I am talking grass, little bit of oyster, less than a foot deep..typical redfish heaven. There is a canal on both ends of this flat that will allow you to access it without running it. Depending on the wind you either can come in on the north or south end and have a nice easy pole across some very fishy water. My plan was to pole the shoreline of the island, then drift across the flat to the other island and then poll that shore. At any rate, another poling skiff comes in. Instead of using one of the canals, which admittedly would have been a few minute detour to get around an island, the boat runs right down the middle of the flat to get to the upwind side and then pole back down. It ran right where I planned to drift. He probably thought he was doing me a favor by not running the bank, but at the same time he jacked up a totally fishy area (probably for the rest of the day). I stuck with my plan and drifted the flat, but as expected every redfish I saw after the other boat came roaring in was extremely spooky and wouldn't play. Before that I was getting aggressive eats from fish.
> 
> I am not necessarily saying this is "bad behavior". It was a weekend, he still gave me tons of space as we both drifted/poled off the flat, but geez it bummed me out.
> 
> Do you consider what I just described as burning a flat? I do; and personally, I would have taken the three extra minutes to run around the island, came in from the canal on the upwind side and just quietly drifted onto the flat and started fishing. Then again, I believe things like stealth and being quiet matter in shallow water. YMMV.
> 
> What do y'all think?


Well, dude could have made a mistake, out of ignorance or just not paying attention. Either way, it’s wrong. My experience has to do with tournament fishermen. Scum of the earth if they burn the flat to gain advantage and spoil the day for the everyday fisherman just hoping to hand a few fish to satisfy that itch. For that reason and the fact that it is standard parctice for tournament along with the bloated egos of competitive fishing, is the reason I hate tournament fishing. Don’t mean to insult those who still think tournamentfishing is OK or great but give it some thought. Most of them are being played for profit, BITCHES.


----------



## Dave Neal

scissorhands said:


> Definition of burning a flat? Someone who runs shallow on a flat with the intention of finding fish. Well thats my definition.


That is not the definition of burning the flat,PERIOD.


----------



## skinnydip

I vote to outlaw air boats in salt water! Rock salt in the ass for tower guys burning shorelines!


----------



## scissorhands

Dave Neal said:


> That is not the definition of burning the flat,PERIOD.


 OK, whats your take on it?


----------



## Smackdaddy53

skinnydip said:


> I vote to outlaw air boats in salt water! Rock salt in the ass for tower guys burning shorelines!


You never see any of either in your area do you? Haha
Outlaw ignorance and machismo and we may have a chance. I just read a reply on here stating that it’s the tunnel hulls and skinny water boats fault. Wow, I didn’t know boats drive themselves, I thought the jackass at the helm did.


----------



## crboggs

Dallas Furman said:


> There are certainly exceptions to consider such as weather conditions but for the most part there is no reason to run skinny just because you can. Many times I think it is done intentionally.


"Skinny" is a subjective term. For example...since I run a tiller/tunnel I generally don't worry about just how skinny things are in my home water unless I see crab traps that are more than about half dry. 

There are usually two factors at play in my decision process once I exit my home creek...
1) Can I run my route without bumping bottom, clipping grass, or leaving damage in my wake?
2) Can I run my route without burning someone who is already working that piece of water?

If the answer to both of those questions is "Yes" then I'm running the safest, most direct, and most efficient route pretty much every time.

If the answer to either question is "No" then I'm bumping out deeper and am running around the outside. Poling skiffs get an extra wide buffer every time.


----------



## Surffshr

Half a boat length from shallow white sand and did that until out of sight. While this dude was a good ways away from me, he did burn that entire shoreline.


----------



## MariettaMike

Acuna said:


> ...
> Do you consider what I just described as burning a flat?


It depends on the guy knowing what a flat is, and that there is one there.

Assuming he didn’t know you could go over and talk to the guy, or carry cutbait in your boat that spooky redfish will eat. Then demonstrate that there are fish away from the shoreline.

But then next time he might shutdown and fish the flat you were planning to fish, which may be worse than him just running across it.


----------



## skinnydip

we have an old crabber in baffin that has ruined a famous shoreline by burning it morning and pm every day. he is there every time I am there poling. it has almost ruined that area very sad...


----------



## AggieFlyGuy

Talk about Baffin, one of my favorite shorelines to fish is the Kenedy Ranch shoreline from Penescal to Los Corrales. The last few times I have fished there I have been run all over by guys in tower boats that insist on running as close to the shoreline as possible. The quality of the fishing has definitely suffered. And there is no good reason for it. That flat is a quarter mile wide in places and they can run inside the bar with no fear of hitting rocks.

Just don't get it.


----------



## skinnydip

exactly seems like we like the same haunts no shortage of peckerwoods but i havent seen the crabber that far he is out of rivera obviously. they use to be scared to run that area too bad


----------

