# Lower Laguna



## Mark H

What's the best place on the Lower Laguna to launch and fish one of the smaller microskiffs? Pros and cons. Thanks.


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## Smackdaddy53

Port Mansfield is nice


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## kbanashek

Port Isabel - Pompano Park
https://goo.gl/maps/yj6yVPKv42zQkGCq8

Can hug the shoreline and still access plenty of good areas up north when you exit the fingers
Also, flat down near Long Island village is about a 10 minute ride on other side of the causeway

https://www.google.com/maps/place/P...b04cfdf04c0a3f!8m2!3d26.0749058!4d-97.2153421


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## Mark H

Pouring over google maps for both driving distance and fishing. Surprises me it's only a half hour longer to get to Port Isabel vs Port Mansfield. Guess the drive isn't a decision maker. Looking at the map, Mansfield, Arroyo, Pt Isabel etc., where would you base out of with a small skiff if all you cared about was sight casting? Sounds like Port Isabel might offer more protection for a small skiff? Making retirement plans here. Thinking about where to base out of and spend as many years fishing as I can while I can still stay vertical and spot fish in as shallow water as possible.


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## kbanashek

I personally like Port Isabel as there's good numbers of snook down in the shipping channel & creek mouths plus south bay offers really good shelter from most E / SE winds. The backside of northen SPI is something worth checking out as well, sand flats for days...youd think you were in the bahamas. Arroyo is also fantastic fishing but I think with a micro Pt Isabel could be a better choice. Also worth noting...all throughout the fingers in the evening there's dock light fishing for trout, snook, and occasional reds. We've had absolutely awesome 2-4 hours sessions cruising around sight casting under the dock lights and a micro is ideal for this. Just a side note in case you wanted to check that one evening.


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## Smackdaddy53

Port Mansfield and south. Don’t advertise the snook, ain’t no snook down there...lots of reds and nice trout though.


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## Mark H

Much appreciated. Think I'll start studying Port Isabel.


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## Smackdaddy53

Mark H said:


> Much appreciated. Think I'll start studying Port Isabel.


Learn spanish


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## Mark H

Good plan. Took it back in school and have used bits off and on my whole life. If immersed, I think I'd be functionally fluent inside of a year.


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## Zika

Mark H said:


> Pouring over google maps for both driving distance and fishing. Surprises me it's only a half hour longer to get to Port Isabel vs Port Mansfield. Guess the drive isn't a decision maker. Looking at the map, Mansfield, Arroyo, Pt Isabel etc., where would you base out of with a small skiff if all you cared about was sight casting? Sounds like Port Isabel might offer more protection for a small skiff? Making retirement plans here. Thinking about where to base out of and spend as many years fishing as I can while I can still stay vertical and spot fish in as shallow water as possible.


Sounds like we have identical retirement plans. The real estate market is reasonable, too.


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## Mark H

Maybe we can take turns poling. 

Been studying that real estate market on the net. Get on the water so it's just lowering the boat to fish or buy a few miles inland or trailer it to the ramp saving money and house maintenance?

What's the ramp to use?


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## commtrd

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Port Mansfield and south. Don’t advertise the snook, ain’t no snook down there...lots of reds and nice trout though.


Not so good for trout and reds either. If I was yall I would retire in Mississippi or somewhere else.


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## Zika

commtrd said:


> Not so good for trout and reds either. If I was yall I would retire in Mississippi or somewhere else.


That's all right, you can retire to Florida's Big Bend. We don't have any reds, trout, tarpon, tripletail and certainly no snook, either.


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## Seymour fish

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Port Mansfield is nice


No no no ! It’s horrible. Crossing the Y will beat you to death in a small skiff. When, not if, the wind gets up the chop becomes severe and you may submarine. Small skiffs are better served launching out of the Arroyo, where a 5 mile run to the inter coastal is protected, and the hop to skinny water is short. S Padre is a shit-show but you can launch and run the backside of Padre in protected water, dodging wind surfers for sport. Plus the fishing in Mansfield has gone to hell anyhow. Seymour


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## Mark H

Shit show...too many people?


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## Seymour fish

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Port Mansfield is nice


No no no ! It’s horrible. Crossing the Y will beat you to death in a small skiff. When, not if, the wind gets up the chop becomes severe and you may submarine. Small skiffs are better served launching out of the Arroyo, where a 5 mile run to the inter coastal is protected, and the hop to skinny water is short. S Padre is a shit-show but you can launch and run the backside of Padre in protected water, dodging wind surfers for sport. Plus the fishing in Mansfield has gone to hell anyho


Mark H said:


> Shit show...too many people?


too many Undesirable people. Rude people. The Dregs. Massively overpriced bad food. Infrastructure problems, especially Sewer. Brigades of jet skis. Lard-asses on Harleys week, black dudes on rice rockets week, *** week. It goes on and on. It used to be paradise. Sad


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## Smackdaddy53

Seymour fish said:


> No no no ! It’s horrible. Crossing the Y will beat you to death in a small skiff. When, not if, the wind gets up the chop becomes severe and you may submarine. Small skiffs are better served launching out of the Arroyo, where a 5 mile run to the inter coastal is protected, and the hop to skinny water is short. S Padre is a shit-show but you can launch and run the backside of Padre in protected water, dodging wind surfers for sport. Plus the fishing in Mansfield has gone to hell anyho
> 
> too many Undesirable people. Rude people. The Dregs. Massively overpriced bad food. Infrastructure problems, especially Sewer. Brigades of jet skis. Lard-asses on Harleys week, black dudes on rice rockets week, *** week. It goes on and on. It used to be paradise. Sad


Sounds like everywhere in Texas that used to be nice.


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## Seymour fish

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Sounds like everywhere in Texas that used to be nice.


Yep.


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## Smackdaddy53

I love Mexican food but...


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## commtrd

Remember going surfing down in Port Isabel when I was 12 years old. There was nothing but pristine beach just a little north of the causeway. Beautiful place back then. Crying shame what it has become.


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## Seymour fish

commtrd said:


> Remember going surfing down in Port Isabel when I was 12 years old. There was nothing but pristine beach just a little north of the causeway. Beautiful place back then. Crying shame what it has become.


Commtrd, First laid eyes on it in ‘68. Was as you describe. A hurricane can be a good thing. Seymour


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## Mark H

My father always said the trash floats to the edge.


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## Chad Cohn

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Sounds like everywhere in Texas that used to be nice.


Factual


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## Sublime

Call something paradise, kiss it goodbye.


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## Smackdaddy53

Sublime said:


> Call something paradise, kiss it goodbye.


These youtube **** will figure it out once it’s too far gone. Port O’ Connor Texas was dubbed “Texas’ best kept secret” for 20 years and now it’s a shitshow. Every place does not have to go main stream but no one gets that. I miss fishing all weekend growing up and not seeing but a couple of boats. Now you can barely pole a shoreline without getting run over by drunk googans in boats that cost more than my house.


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## Sublime

Smackdaddy53 said:


> These youtube **** will figure it out once it’s too far gone. Port O’ Connor Texas was dubbed “Texas’ best kept secret” for 20 years and now it’s a shitshow. Every place does not have to go main stream but no one gets that. I miss fishing all weekend growing up and not seeing but a couple of boats. Now you can barely pole a shoreline without getting run over by drunk googans in boats that cost more than my house.


And it will seemingly only get worse. Only relief I can think of is to have clearly marked running lanes that everyone "has" to stay in when on plane. No, not everywhere, just a few major ones. For example, we all know that in Port O there are sometimes multiple routes to get from point A to point B, so you get people running all over creation. Yes, it is reminiscent of WPP which went over like a fart in church, but we have to do something. One obvious problem with the running lanes is concentrating a bunch of boats in one area and the safety aspects of that presents.


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## Seymour fish

Smackdaddy53 said:


> These youtube **** will figure it out once it’s too far gone. Port O’ Connor Texas was dubbed “Texas’ best kept secret” for 20 years and now it’s a shitshow. Every place does not have to go main stream but no one gets that. I miss fishing all weekend growing up and not seeing but a couple of boats. Now you can barely pole a shoreline without getting run over by drunk googans in boats that cost more than my house.


That’s a sad fact


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## Smackdaddy53

Sublime said:


> And it will seemingly only get worse. Only relief I can think of is to have clearly marked running lanes that everyone "has" to stay in when on plane. No, not everywhere, just a few major ones. For example, we all know that in Port O there are sometimes multiple routes to get from point A to point B, so you get people running all over creation. Yes, it is reminiscent of WPP which went over like a fart in church, but we have to do something. One obvious problem with the running lanes is concentrating a bunch of boats in one area and the safety aspects of that presents.


The back lake I cut my poling skiff teeth on has become the new detour to run your skinny boat and blast music instead of the ICW which runs parallel to it. People would rather ruin other people’s fishing than keep their boat in the ICW. It pisses me off to no end. One day one guy in street clothes ran at least 70 all the way down and back about 4-5 times weaving through kayaks, boats drifting and anchored. He didn’t even have a rod out. Dumbass people these days.


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## Mark H

Pretty brave guy if he leaves his truck and trailer unattended back at the ramp. I've aged out of such shenanigans but there's always a new crop.


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## Seymour fish

Mark H said:


> Shit show...too many people?


Yes. Dregs


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## Seymour fish

elsillo said:


> I only Fish from Port Mansfield to South Padre Island, Someone mentioned you to dock out of the Fingers in Port Isabel but I wouldn't recommend it. If you plan fishing SPI or Arroyo City you can dock out of W Polaris Dr. https://goo.gl/maps/W2Ms2wQZoJBRZ28q7
> 
> If you are looking for places to sight cast send me a DM I can give you some spots that you will find fish to sight cast to, I just Hope you have a jack plate or you will be poling for several miles to get in/out of some spots.


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## Seymour fish

Thanks for the heads up. Have enough tunnel and jack plate to need an airboat tow when I stick it.


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## CKEAT

Port O Has so many good places to run and those dumb shits just want to prove they can do 80 in 6inches of water. 

I love it when they hit 2-3 inch shell and stick those heavy ass flats rockets.


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## Mark H

Seymour fish said:


> Thanks for the heads up. Have enough tunnel and jack plate to need an airboat tow when I stick it.


One reason I'm thinking of a micro. Hopefully I can pull it off my mistakes.


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## Tx_Whipray

Smackdaddy53 said:


> The back lake I cut my poling skiff teeth on has become the new detour to run your skinny boat and blast music instead of the ICW which runs parallel to it. People would rather ruin other people’s fishing than keep their boat in the ICW. It pisses me off to no end. One day one guy in street clothes ran at least 70 all the way down and back about 4-5 times weaving through kayaks, boats drifting and anchored. He didn’t even have a rod out. Dumbass people these days.


I think I've told you this story, but the boy and I were in there on fish on the inside shoreline one day, and a guy in an RFL came right up behind us, pulled out and around, and got right back on the shoreline within 100 yards. I could hear his shitty bro country coming for 10 minutes before I turned around and saw him coming up my ass. I'm 6'5", and I was poling, so no way he didn't see us. Lime Green and Grey RFL


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## Smackdaddy53

Tx_Whipray said:


> I think I've told you this story, but the boy and I were in there on fish on the inside shoreline one day, and a guy in an RFL came right up behind us, pulled out and around, and got right back on the shoreline within 100 yards. I could hear his shitty bro country coming for 10 minutes before I turned around and saw him coming up my ass. I'm 6'5", and I was poling, so no way he didn't see us. Lime Green and Grey RFL


RFL or 21’ Shoalwater Cat? Same dude burned me 4-5 times and I found out who he was because his boat showed up for sale a month after the last time I saw him. I would have caught him the first time but he would outrun me every time...Cooper Hartman guided for Bay Flats Lodge. I called the number on his ad and asked him about it and he admitted to burning there a lot because clients want a boat ride in skinny water. I called the owner of Bay Flats and burned his ass. I think he’s moved on to another area. 
I’ve had confrontations both good and bad all over that area with these types of people.


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## Smackdaddy53

CKEAT said:


> Port O Has so many good places to run and those dumb shits just want to prove they can do 80 in 6inches of water.
> 
> I love it when they hit 2-3 inch shell and stick those heavy ass flats rockets.


No fish there...


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## CKEAT

No fish where idiots run no doubt


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## Smackdaddy53

CKEAT said:


> No fish where idiots run no doubt


My buddy is a duck guide and he always tells me airboats don’t scare fish. I swear, some people just make themselves believe stupid shit to fit their agenda.


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## Seymour fish

Mark H said:


> One reason I'm thinking of a micro. Hopefully I can pull it off my mistakes.


Mark, the wife and I have succeeded in dragging off hard sand with the hpx-t 100% of the time as long as there is an inch and a quarter of water on the transom. Solo I need 3-3/4”.


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## Mark H

Talked to a young lady who grew up in Donna. Got me to thinking about encouraging my kids and grand kids to visit. Certainly more non fishing attractions in and close to Port Isabel. Are the dregs hanging around the area all the time or just certain times of the year including Spring Break?


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## Mark H

Seymour fish said:


> Mark, the wife and I have succeeded in dragging off hard sand with the hpx-t 100% of the time as long as there is an inch and a quarter of water on the transom. Solo I need 3-3/4”.


So maybe I should be thinking about a little larger boat? I was thinking Micro because shallow is all that interests me now.


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## Seymour fish

Mark H said:


> Talked to a young lady who grew up in Donna. Got me to thinking about encouraging my kids and grand kids to visit. Certainly more non fishing attractions in and close to Port Isabel. Are the dregs hanging around the area all the time or just certain times of the year including Spring Break?


Spring break thru Labor Day catches most of it. They shoot 600 yds F-TR in Donna


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## Mark H

Seymour fish said:


> Spring break thru Labor Day catches most of it. They shoot 600 yds F-TR in Donna


Well that's a large piece of the year. If I stay on the mainland side of the bridge, is it still an issue? Is the water much less crowded out of Arroyo? Might have to drive the grandkids to Schlitterbahn the extra distance.

As to the shooting, I was told years ago my grandfather once held the Texas State 1000 yard open sight record. Don't remember who in the family told me and I've never looked into it. Wonder how I would confirm?


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## Seymour fish

Mark H said:


> Well that's a large piece of the year. If I stay on the mainland side of the bridge, is it still an issue? Is the water much less crowded out of Arroyo? Might have to drive the grandkids to Schlitterbahn the extra distance.
> 
> As to the shooting, I was told years ago my grandfather once held the Texas State 1000 yard open sight record. Don't remember who in the family told me and I've never looked into it. Wonder how I would confirm?


Mainland side is OK. Water is crowded. Tournaments re-fishing starts Thurs or Fri, fish run over Sat and Sun. It’s everywhere now


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## Mark H

So the water is just as crowded up toward the Arroyo?


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## Smackdaddy53

Mark H said:


> So the water is just as crowded up toward the Arroyo?


You should go rent a house and fish these areas first hand to see what they are like before considering anything. Our idea of crowded may not be yours. I’d want to visit and fish an area over about a year’s time before considering moving my family there.


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## Mark H

Smackdaddy53 said:


> You should go rent a house and fish these areas first hand to see what they are like before considering anything. Our idea of crowded may not be yours. I’d want to visit and fish an area over about a year’s time before considering moving my family there.


Agreed.


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## ShallowH2o

stay home and fish we have too many out of staters already


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## Mark H

ShallowH2o said:


> stay home and fish we have too many out of staters already


If you are talking to me, I'm native Texan.


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## ShallowH2o

So I'm guessing your not an out of stater  7 generations and going strong- we saved the republic back in 1836!!!


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## Mark H

3rd generation on dad's side. At least 4th on mom's side.


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## JBonorden

commtrd said:


> Remember going surfing down in Port Isabel when I was 12 years old. There was nothing but pristine beach just a little north of the causeway. Beautiful place back then. Crying shame what it has become.


I was in Mansfield back in September. It reminded me of what Port Aransas use to be. If you want a look at your future, come north. You won't like what you see.


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## JBonorden

Sublime said:


> And it will seemingly only get worse. Only relief I can think of is to have clearly marked running lanes that everyone "has" to stay in when on plane. No, not everywhere, just a few major ones. For example, we all know that in Port O there are sometimes multiple routes to get from point A to point B, so you get people running all over creation. Yes, it is reminiscent of WPP which went over like a fart in church, but we have to do something. One obvious problem with the running lanes is concentrating a bunch of boats in one area and the safety aspects of that presents.


 We had run lanes when the sea grass conservation was first started. Big Orange poles in the flats to mark the lanes. Wish it would have worked.


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## Smackdaddy53

JBonorden said:


> We had run lanes when the sea grass conservation was first started. Big Orange poles in the flats to mark the lanes. Wish it would have worked.


No enforcement and too many inconsiderate people with no integrity.


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## PortMansfield

Port Mansfield , less traffic , huge flats, back water . Plenty of trout, redfish and flounder


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## not2shabby

PortMansfield said:


> Port Mansfield , less traffic , huge flats, back water . Plenty of trout, redfish and flounder


There are no fish in Port Mansfield. Nor Texas, for that matter.


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## Tx_Whipray

Yea, Mansfield sucks. Last time we fished there we didn't catch anything but hard heads, we broke the lower unit off the boat, and I got food poisoning and lip herp from the Mexican restaurant. Everyone should stay away.


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## Seymour fish

Tx_Whipray said:


> Yea, Mansfield sucks. Last time we fished there we didn't catch anything but hard heads, we broke the lower unit off the boat, and I got food poisoning and lip herp from the Mexican restaurant. Everyone should stay away.


And that’s just the tip of the iceberg


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## Seymour fish

Seymour fish said:


> And that’s just the tip of the iceberg


The so called port director just announced completion of the dredging job which was to extend from the harbour mouth to the mouth of the jetties at a depth of 16’. 18-20 million deal, though the $ paid gets murky. The actual dredging completed is rumored to be from the harbor to the inter coastal, far far from correcting the problem of 4’ deep shoals at the jetty mouth, perhaps 4-5 miles short. Yet “ it’s completed”. The public will soon demand the Facts


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## sjrobin

Who benefits from dredging the PM channel? Removing sand from the jetty entrance? Barges and shrimp boats in the harbor? More sport fishing yachts? More tournaments?


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## Sublime

sjrobin said:


> Who benefits from dredging the PM channel? Removing sand from the jetty entrance? Barges and shrimp boats in the harbor? More sport fishing yachts? More tournaments?


It's so it will be like Port A or Port O in 20 years.


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## AggieFlyGuy

Seymour fish said:


> No no no ! It’s horrible. Crossing the Y will beat you to death in a small skiff. When, not if, the wind gets up the chop becomes severe and you may submarine. Small skiffs are better served launching out of the Arroyo, where a 5 mile run to the inter coastal is protected, and the hop to skinny water is short. S Padre is a shit-show but you can launch and run the backside of Padre in protected water, dodging wind surfers for sport. Plus the fishing in Mansfield has gone to hell anyho
> 
> too many Undesirable people. Rude people. The Dregs. Massively overpriced bad food. Infrastructure problems, especially Sewer. Brigades of jet skis. Lard-asses on Harleys week, black dudes on rice rockets week, *** week. It goes on and on. It used to be paradise. Sad


I have been fishing Port Mansfield since the early to mid 80's and there is definitely more boat traffic these days than there was then. There is a BIG tournament in town almost every weekend during the summer months and most of those folks come from all over the state. So, yes, you get rude people of every stripe. Go during the week and the place is deserted (except for the deer). However, the fishing remains good if you are in a skiff and can get away from all the bait and lure chunkers. The average size of the trout have increased dramatically since bag restrictions were implemented several years back. 

Also, the Pelican has some of the best fresh fish anywhere on the coast and I have never found it particularly expensive. There is even a new place that serves excellent pizza for about what I pay for a good pizza in Corpus, although the name slips my mind. 

However, I agree that exiting or entering PM through the harbor is treacherous and ill-advised if you are in a true micro skiff. You can avoid that by launching at the new county ramp at Mansfield South. My only dig about PM is the petty theft. Do not leave your cooler and push pole on your boat at night. I have made that mistake and paid the price. There is a police presence now, which has helped.

If you are looking for better close access to flats that are tailor made for a micro skiff, I would suggest researching Arroyo City.


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## Seymour fish

AggieFlyGuy said:


> I have been fishing Port Mansfield since the early to mid 80's and there is definitely more boat traffic these days than there was then. There is a BIG tournament in town almost every weekend during the summer months and most of those folks come from all over the state. So, yes, you get rude people of every stripe. Go during the week and the place is deserted (except for the deer). However, the fishing remains good if you are in a skiff and can get away from all the bait and lure chunkers. The average size of the trout have increased dramatically since bag restrictions were implemented several years back.
> 
> Also, the Pelican has some of the best fresh fish anywhere on the coast and I have never found it particularly expensive. There is even a new place that serves excellent pizza for about what I pay for a good pizza in Corpus, although the name slips my mind.
> 
> However, I agree that exiting or entering PM through the harbor is treacherous and ill-advised if you are in a true micro skiff. You can avoid that by launching at the new county ramp at Mansfield South. My only dig about PM is the petty theft. Do not leave your cooler and push pole on your boat at night. I have made that mistake and paid the price. There is a police presence now, which has helped.
> 
> If you are looking for better close access to flats that are tailor made for a micro skiff, I would suggest researching Arroyo City.


The Pelican has folded and is for sale. The pizza joint has folded. Zero reds on the flats the past 6 weeks yet they can be found deep. The tailing pods on the west side, with birds working them, is seldom seen anymore. The weekend starts on Thursday for big tourneys and first light on Friday every weekend of the year now. Live here, so the increase in pressure is palpable. The Bahamas sand still has the occasional stragler but is nothing like it was 2-3 yrs ago. Similar drop in the number of sheephead leads me to believe burning the sand has trained the fish to avoid it. Sad for the flyfisherman, but the hardware and croaker guys are still filling coolers. We have experienced an increase in air pollution from Monterrey the past 3 yrs which has made the Vis difficult some months, even in otherwise full sun. No recent experience with mid-week fishing up the coast and wonder if it’s still worse than here ? Aggie, respect your long term experience down here and no argument with you. Trying to stay +. How am I doing ? Seymour


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## sjrobin

AggieFlyGuy said:


> I have been fishing Port Mansfield since the early to mid 80's and there is definitely more boat traffic these days than there was then. There is a BIG tournament in town almost every weekend during the summer months and most of those folks come from all over the state. So, yes, you get rude people of every stripe. Go during the week and the place is deserted (except for the deer). However, the fishing remains good if you are in a skiff and can get away from all the bait and lure chunkers. The average size of the trout have increased dramatically since bag restrictions were implemented several years back.
> 
> Also, the Pelican has some of the best fresh fish anywhere on the coast and I have never found it particularly expensive. There is even a new place that serves excellent pizza for about what I pay for a good pizza in Corpus, although the name slips my mind.
> 
> However, I agree that exiting or entering PM through the harbor is treacherous and ill-advised if you are in a true micro skiff. You can avoid that by launching at the new county ramp at Mansfield South. My only dig about PM is the petty theft. Do not leave your cooler and push pole on your boat at night. I have made that mistake and paid the price. There is a police presence now, which has helped.
> 
> If you are looking for better close access to flats that are tailor made for a micro skiff, I would suggest researching Arroyo City.


Your assessment is pretty good for an Aggie! But lets keep in mind the memory of a six to sixteen year old (1980 to 1990) is usually emotional, not reality. There are a lot of factors, but no doubt the quality of fishing has degraded since the first five years or so after banning of gill nets and classifying red drum and sea trout as game fish in 1977. Less sea grass of all species, higher base line water levels and resulting erosion of shorelines and islands, plus much more shallow water boat traffic and live croaker use consistently taking the top of the food chain no matter the reduced limits. Thirty inch red drum and sea trout in shallow bays were much more common in the 1980's through the 1990's. No floating cabins were anywhere in the Laguna including Baffin Bay(except one) and fewer ICW stilt cabins were being used. Better start passing some legislation to protect the Laguna or we lose it.


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## AggieFlyGuy

sjrobin said:


> Your assessment is pretty good for an Aggie! But lets keep in mind the memory of a six to sixteen year old (1980 to 1990) is usually emotional, not reality. There are a lot of factors, but no doubt the quality of fishing has degraded since the first five years or so after banning of gill nets and classifying red drum and sea trout as game fish in 1977. Less sea grass of all species, higher base line water levels and resulting erosion of shorelines and islands, plus much more shallow water boat traffic and live croaker use consistently taking the top of the food chain no matter the reduced limits. Thirty inch red drum and sea trout in shallow bays were much more common in the 1980's through the 1990's. No floating cabins were anywhere in the Laguna including Baffin Bay(except one) and fewer ICW stilt cabins were being used. Better start passing some legislation to protect the Laguna or we lose it.


Truth be told, I have always had at least as good fishing or better on the upper Laguna Madre. The water around Port Mansfield is not terrible, but I would not classify it as a wonderland of infinite possibilities for the light tackle angler either. What made the place great in years past was its distance from the looming shadow of Houston and San Antonio and PM anglers therefore had fewer anglers to contend with. Those days are long gone - at least on the weekends during the summer months. I noticed the biggest decline in the fishing around PM after the terrible flooding along the Rio Grande about a decade ago. The flood control levies were opened and dumped literally billions of gallons of fresh water in the LLM which killed almost all the eel grass. All these years later, the water still turns into chocolate milk when the wind tips over the 10 mph mark. 

It is still nice to drive around town after a day on the water and feed 180 inch deer potato chips from your car window. On those rare windless days in the late summer, you can hit the beach front and have a legitimate shot at hooking a serious tarpon. Snook have started appearing in greater number along the Mangrove shorelines of Cullen and Rattlesnake bays and there is still a lot of good back country nooks and crannies in Gladys and further south. I have a good friend with a damned nice cabin on the ICW, so I will continue to fish the water along PM as long as he keeps inviting me to tag along.

Sucks the Pelican closed, though. Great fried drum.


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## Seymour fish

AggieFlyGuy said:


> Truth be told, I have always had at least as good fishing or better on the upper Laguna Madre. The water around Port Mansfield is not terrible, but I would not classify it as a wonderland of infinite possibilities for the light tackle angler either. What made the place great in years past was its distance from the looming shadow of Houston and San Antonio and PM anglers therefore had fewer anglers to contend with. Those days are long gone - at least on the weekends during the summer months. I noticed the biggest decline in the fishing around PM after the terrible flooding along the Rio Grande about a decade ago. The flood control levies were opened and dumped literally billions of gallons of fresh water in the LLM which killed almost all the eel grass. All these years later, the water still turns into chocolate milk when the wind tips over the 10 mph mark.
> 
> It is still nice to drive around town after a day on the water and feed 180 inch deer potato chips from your car window. On those rare windless days in the late summer, you can hit the beach front and have a legitimate shot at hooking a serious tarpon. Snook have started appearing in greater number along the Mangrove shorelines of Cullen and Rattlesnake bays and there is still a lot of good back country nooks and crannies in Gladys and further south. I have a good friend with a damned nice cabin on the ICW, so I will continue to fish the water along PM as long as he keeps inviting me to tag along.
> 
> Sucks the Pelican closed, though. Great fried drum.


Aggie, Your description is spot-on. The death of that beautiful carpet of grass in Peyton’s was tragic. These days the sight casting requires patience and often long stealthy grinds, with the objective of seeing one ole lonesome red come along where you prefer him to be, wading skinny. The cabins at the lower mouth of the land cut would give great access to Gladys, ahead of the crowd. Great stuff. Pelican had pretty good coconut shrimp too ! Regards, Seymour


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## sjrobin

How bout that eight years or so brown tide that started in Baffin Bay and eventually made it down to the southern Laguna. Good times! Sorry Aggie, massive fresh water floods and hurricanes are essential for the bottom of the food chain in the Laguna Madre and any other GOM estuary. I left out the lack of fresh water inflow as another of the causes of the the Laguna Madre decline. Nueces Bay would be much more productive with occasional Nueces River floods. Same with the Arroyo and the Rio Grande. Do people really think the floating cabin occupants use the Texas state law mandatory contained porta potties when no one is watching?


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## Seymour fish

sjrobin said:


> How bout that eight years or so brown tide that started in Baffin Bay and eventually made it down to the southern Laguna. Good times! Sorry Aggie, massive fresh water floods and hurricanes are essential for the bottom of the food chain in the Laguna Madre and any other GOM estuary. I left out the lack of fresh water inflow as another of the causes of the the Laguna Madre decline. Nueces Bay would be much more productive with occasional Nueces River floods. Same with the Arroyo and the Rio Grande. Do people really think the floating cabin occupants use the Texas state law mandatory contained porta potties when no one is watching?


Blue crabs find a fresh turd to be a rare delicacy. Rotting fish carcasses too, so the porta-potty thing seems null. The brown tides from the shrimp farming in the Arroyo were terrible, and shutting that down was a major conservations step.


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## Surffshr

sjrobin said:


> Who benefits from dredging the PM channel? Removing sand from the jetty entrance? Barges and shrimp boats in the harbor? More sport fishing yachts? More tournaments?


Some of that is a short term benefit of dredging the Mansfield Cut, but won’t be a lasting one without the regular maintenance of the channel.

A data point to add to anyone’s timeline is the last regular dredging of the Mansfield Jetty Channel occurred around the 2002 timeframe. Previous to that, there was a dredge clearing that shoal every 2-3 years and placing 500k CY of beach quality sand “beneficially” on PINS north of the pass. Today that beach has now narrowed significantly miles to the north due to a lack of nourishment, and the beach that is there is simply the sand of the now gone primary and secondary dune lines closer to the cut.

The LLM has a large scale circulation pattern driven by wind with a significant net inflow from the Brownsville Jetty Channel and a net outflow from the Mansfield Cut and north through the land cut. Reducing the cross-section of the Mansfield Jetty Channel with the sustained shoaling reduces the circulation of water in the system. This has actually been studied/measured (I’d have to find the study now). The take home was that closing or allowing nature to close the Mansfield Cut would reduce the net inflow into Brownsville and reduce associated shoaling of the Brownsville Ship Channel. 

What was not looked at are the impacts that MAY have happened and would still be happening in some part due to the Mansfield Cut not being maintained at full depth every 2-3 years. For certain, beach on PINS has been lost including the primary and secondary dunes for several miles to the north of the cut. This raised concerns (years later) from several resource agencies of public access, endangered species monitoring (turtles), loss of habitat (plovers)...etc. Other impacts that haven’t been measured are the loss of seagrass beds/variety, soft bottom benthic organisms, water quality...etc. Unfortunately, everything is anecdotal as far as I know (not really my thing). 

Once the beach started to heavily erode before my eyes due to lack of dredging the channel, I bent ears at every opportunity of the folks whose thing it is to know take a look at the peripheral impacts. I did that with the thinking that there were other negative changes happening to the ecosystem besides the beach being lost, and if they were quantified then maybe there would be a case to keep that channel maintained that wasn’t commercial tonnage (which it will never have). This was well before dredging as a form of habitat restoration was in vogue. In fact, down there back then it was considered the most destructive thing one could do and most locals despised it. 

While I can’t say for certain the lack of channel maintenance in general has lead to the some of the problems y’all are citing, I can say that every channel in the LLM system was well maintained and done so on a regular basis for all of the “glory years” mentioned. The changes I’ve seen since 02-03 have generally not been positive ones, and there are obviously other parts of this equation besides simply channel maintenance.


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## sjrobin

Surffshr said:


> Some of that is a short term benefit of dredging the Mansfield Cut, but won’t be a lasting one without the regular maintenance of the channel.
> 
> A data point to add to anyone’s timeline is the last regular dredging of the Mansfield Jetty Channel occurred around the 2002 timeframe. Previous to that, there was a dredge clearing that shoal every 2-3 years and placing 500k CY of beach quality sand “beneficially” on PINS north of the pass. Today that beach has now narrowed significantly miles to the north due to a lack of nourishment, and the beach that is there is simply the sand of the now gone primary and secondary dune lines closer to the cut.
> 
> The LLM has a large scale circulation pattern driven by wind with a significant net inflow from the Brownsville Jetty Channel and a net outflow from the Mansfield Cut and north through the land cut. Reducing the cross-section of the Mansfield Jetty Channel with the sustained shoaling reduces the circulation of water in the system. This has actually been studied/measured (I’d have to find the study now). The take home was that closing or allowing nature to close the Mansfield Cut would reduce the net inflow into Brownsville and reduce associated shoaling of the Brownsville Ship Channel.
> 
> What was not looked at are the impacts that MAY have happened and would still be happening in some part due to the Mansfield Cut not being maintained at full depth every 2-3 years. For certain, beach on PINS has been lost including the primary and secondary dunes for several miles to the north of the cut. This raised concerns (years later) from several resource agencies of public access, endangered species monitoring (turtles), loss of habitat (plovers)...etc. Other impacts that haven’t been measured are the loss of seagrass beds/variety, soft bottom benthic organisms, water quality...etc. Unfortunately, everything is anecdotal as far as I know (not really my thing).
> 
> Once the beach started to heavily erode before my eyes due to lack of dredging the channel, I bent ears at every opportunity of the folks whose thing it is to know take a look at the peripheral impacts. I did that with the thinking that there were other negative changes happening to the ecosystem besides the beach being lost, and if they were quantified then maybe there would be a case to keep that channel maintained that wasn’t commercial tonnage (which it will never have). This was well before dredging as a form of habitat restoration was in vogue. In fact, down there back then it was considered the most destructive thing one could do and most locals despised it.
> 
> While I can’t say for certain the lack of channel maintenance in general has lead to the some of the problems y’all are citing, I can say that every channel in the LLM system was well maintained and done so on a regular basis for all of the “glory years” mentioned. The changes I’ve seen since 02-03 have generally not been positive ones, and there are obviously other parts of this equation besides simply channel maintenance.


Thanks for weighing in with your experience Andrew. In the natural Laguna Madre system, before dredging for traffic at Port Aransas and Port Isabel, there were numerous small passes that would open and close with the occurrence of river floods and storms/ hurricanes. The extensive marine life in the Laguna Madre was and is a result of warm winters, low rainfall, with resulting high salinity, some nutrient loading from occasional rains, and wind driven water movement without the channeling effect of the ICW. Together, these conditions created one of the most productive and unique estuaries in the world. 
The degradation of the Laguna Madre(and the Mississippi delta) is mainly the result of exponential sea level rise and lack of sediment replacement due to sediment trapping dams. Moving water, whether by wind or tide, is powerful and over time will dissolve clay and sediment bay shorelines and bottoms and the marine plants living in those once shallow zones. I have been fishing in the Laguna Madre since 1978, and most of the erosion and sea grass loss has occurred in the last five to ten years.


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## sjrobin

https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends.html

Data collection by NOAA


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## AggieFlyGuy

Is it just me or have you guys that have fished the LLM for 20 or more years noticed that almost any wind at all turns the entire bay system into chocolate milk? I may be viewing this through the tainted lens of time, but I recall most of that water holding clear even under the highest of winds. It seems to have gotten significantly worse after that bad flood event on the Rio Grande a decade or so back. Silt deposits? Dunno.


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## Seymour fish

AggieFlyGuy said:


> Is it just me or have you guys that have fished the LLM for 20 or more years noticed that almost any wind at all turns the entire bay system into chocolate milk? I may be viewing this through the tainted lens of time, but I recall most of that water holding clear even under the highest of winds. It seems to have gotten significantly worse after that bad flood event on the Rio Grande a decade or so back. Silt deposits? Dunno.


Yep. Happens even on the sand nowadays, noticeably worse the past 2-3 yrs. also, a bloom of toxic chemicals from the Arroyo flows north and east into the Green Island area, as seen on various govt water quality maps. I would not eat fish from that water.


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## Tx_Whipray

noticed it when I was down south last week. Sea Grass degradation maybe?


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## Seymour fish

Tx_Whipray said:


> noticed it when I was down south last week. Sea Grass degradation maybe?


Whip, Yes. The vast grassbed that was the West side is gone. The deep grassbeds have suffered. The continuing silt deposition from the Floodway is an environmental side effect of saving the metropolis on the Rio grande from flooding


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## sjrobin

What you are seeing is called exponential change from the natural state of the Laguna Madre, a tough, resilient, ecosystem that has been pushed into a tipping point spiral. Like most people that loved the Laguna Madre, I did not know or think about theses changes as I participated in research and processed crude oil products for the largest and most efficient energy corporation on the planet. But I and my ex-employer have recognized that "We believe that climate change risks warrant action and it's going to take all of us - business, governments, and consumers - to make meaningful progress" And yes Darren Woods, CEO, did write to Team Trump asking him to not officially withdraw the Paris Climate Accords. https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/Energy-and-environment/Environmental-protection/Climate-change

So, as an example, let's look back at the Yarborough Pass area in the northern Laguna in my perspectives in 1978. I was 22 years old. On normal water level days aquatic grasses could be seen growing to the water surface as far as you could see on vast areas north and south of Yarborough. On lower water levels, almost always in August, almost double the amount of sea grasses could be seen at the surface up to drops and deeper pot holes. This heavy seagrass growth held true any where in the Laguna Madre from at least the 1970's to about 2000. Baffin Bay brown tide started in 1989 and diminished by 1997. The brown algae blocked enough sunlight for long enough to kill almost all of the sea grass beds in the Northern Laguna and a lot of the southern Laguna. The rising water levels and unusual direction(NE) and velocity(20+) of wind has not and will not allow the vast majority of grass beds to recover. Less grass in the Laguna ecosystem equals more turbid water equals less sunlight reaching the grass equals less marine life. Warmer winters equals more algal/phytoplankton blooms equals turbid water equals less grass....

Do not despair. We can slow the rate of climate change down. The sooner we start the process, the better chance we have to slow the change and let the planet adjust over a few hundred years instead of ten or twenty.


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## sjrobin

Seymour fish said:


> Whip, Yes. The vast grassbed that was the West side is gone. The deep grassbeds have suffered. The continuing silt deposition from the Floodway is an environmental side effect of saving the metropolis on the Rio grande from flooding


The reason for Peytons and Woodys seagrass demise is rising water levels and direct pounding of northeast wind for the last five years or so. All of the north/south long exposures are suffering the worst loss, but the strong south wind exposures are degrading also. The deeper the water, the longer the fetch, the more powerful the waves.


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## AggieFlyGuy

All of this makes good sense from my own entirely unscientific observations. Talking about Peyton's, one of the surest bets to find pods of tailing fish was the northeastern shore of the bay (just opposite the ICW spoils). I have not found fish there in any numbers in probably 7-10 years. The last couple of times I actually wasted my time trying the visibility was absolutely terrible. On a more positive note, Gladys still fishes well if you can stand the run back home when the evening breeze kicks up.

I'll be heading down tomorrow and will let you guys know what I found.


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## sjrobin

Good luck and good fishing!


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## sjrobin

I forgot about the migrating waterfowl factor due to warmer winters on the Great Plains. Almost all of the North American redheads, along with millions of other species of waterfowl, would winter along the Texas coast for thousands of years, getting fat, and duck pooping in the Laguna Madre. Great fertilizer. I was fortunate to witness wave after wave of migrating waterfowl in the evening sky in the 1970's. We did not even hunt the redheads, just puddle ducks.


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## Tx_Whipray

AggieFlyGuy said:


> All of this makes good sense from my own entirely unscientific observations. Talking about Peyton's, one of the surest bets to find pods of tailing fish was the northeastern shore of the bay (just opposite the ICW spoils). I have not found fish there in any numbers in probably 7-10 years. The last couple of times I actually wasted my time trying the visibility was absolutely terrible. On a more positive note, Gladys still fishes well if you can stand the run back home when the evening breeze kicks up.
> 
> I'll be heading down tomorrow and will let you guys know what I found.


I was in there last Wednesday (Peyton's), and it was pretty murky. There were a few fish up on the sand in the back, but it was over in there by 9:30 or so.


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## sjrobin

Thanks for the report. The Laguna is becoming much more like the northern Texas bays, more difficult to find water clear enough to see bottom and hunt fish. Fewer zones to hunt.


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## AggieFlyGuy

Well, I spent four days fishing the LLM from Thursday through Sunday. First and foremost, the water was high. However, the winds were generally light and water held clear most places. Predictably, the fish were scattered and more than a little spooky given the full moon and winds changing direction what seemed like every thirty minutes. Had a great morning in Gladys with podding fish and found decent numbers of fish in Cullen and along the East Cut. However, you had to really push deep into secluded pockets to get at any numbers. Regardless, it was nice to be on the water and nice to hang out with good friends. Nicer to be out of the house after this 15+ week Covid-19 buzz kill.


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## ricky gonzalez

Might add over the last five years the tournament scene has taken its toll on the LLM.. Has added to the fishing pressure and exposed many of the great areas to novice anglers at a fast rate..


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## Caddis

Honestly, I wish tournaments weren't legal......


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## Bill Balch

Zika said:


> Sounds like we have identical retirement plans. The real estate market is reasonable, too.


What is your time line? I‘m two years from being a permanent Port Isabellian.


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## Zika

Bill Balch said:


> What is your time line? I‘m two years from being a permanent Port Isabellian.


Change of plans. Staying true to my Conch roots and remaining in the Sunshine State. But I sure would like to visit LMM again.


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## ShannonD

Second and thirds on Mansfield and SPI. Original home for me. You could also stay in Arroyo City (South Padre being the most expensive place to stay / Mansfield being the most isolated).


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## Seymour fish

ShannonD said:


> Second and thirds on Mansfield and SPI. Original home for me. You could also stay in Arroyo City (South Padre being the most expensive place to stay / Mansfield being the most isolated).


Pt Mansfield FTW !


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## Mark H

PM is cool (love the deer) but for a microskiff who would say Arroyo City is a better plan?


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## Smackdaddy53

Mark H said:


> PM is cool (love the deer) but for a microskiff who would say Arroyo City is a better plan?


Yeah you can launch in the river and short run to the bay.


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## Sublime

Everyone go now. With all these people streaming into Texas , it’s going to be wall to wall people soon.


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## CKEAT

Yep, the LM is ugly place and the fishing hasn’t been good in years. Nothing to see there. Move along 🤣


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## Seymour fish

CKEAT said:


> Yep, the LM is ugly place and the fishing hasn’t been good in years. Nothing to see there. Move along 🤣


Truth !


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## Seymour fish

Sublime said:


> Everyone go now. With all these people streaming into Texas , it’s going to be wall to wall people soon.


It’s FULL. Go back, it’s a trap


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## ShannonD

Mark H said:


> PM is cool (love the deer) but for a microskiff who would say Arroyo City is a better plan?


They did a controlled cull of the herd last year (I think it was). And Mansfield took a direct hit from a hurricane, but I haven't been there since that one.


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## Mark H

Some serious racks on some of the herd.


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## Seymour fish

ShannonD said:


> They did a controlled cull of the herd last year (I think it was). And Mansfield took a direct hit from a hurricane, but I haven't been there since that one.


The deer carry Babesiosis, transferable to humans via deer ticks. Bad stuff !


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## Mark H

That settles it. Arroyo City it is. 

Seems like they could add some Ivermectin to the feed they leave out for them? Protects from the Covid too. 😁


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## Mark H

Babesiosis: Blood Infection Spread by Ticks (webmd.com)


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## Caddis

That doesn't site TX. Has it really been found here or just a ploy to say how bad LLM is.


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## Mark H

Caddis said:


> That doesn't site TX. Has it really been found here or just a ploy to say how bad LLM is.


Maybe. 😂 In fairness, it doesn't exclude states not mentioned. If it's in the states mentioned as well as Europe, I wouldn't count it out in PM.


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## Tx_Whipray

CKEAT said:


> Yep, the LM is ugly place and the fishing hasn’t been good in years. Nothing to see there. Move along 🤣


Nothing but hardheads and lady fish. And Chili Willie's has the worst burgers in Texas. People should head to Galveston instead.


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## Seymour fish

Tx_Whipray said:


> Nothing but hardheads and lady fish. And Chili Willie's has the worst burgers in Texas. People should head to Galveston instead.


Sounds like you’ve been there. They have calamari that comes out of a tube. Extruded chum, yum. Overfished ! Huge barge traffic, loaded with Benzene! Run,Forrest.


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