# Beaver tail B2,East cape lostmen 18, Mitzi 17



## Guest (Nov 3, 2007)

> I'm talking with some family about going in half on A nice used flats skiff. We want to spend about 15 to $18,000 on the best skiff for the money. I've even considered the 17 Panga. If it were you, what boat would you buy? I want something that is dry running and will run through A 2 to 3 foot chop with out getting my head beat in. Or if you could think of a better skiff for about the same money. THANKS



I have not ridden on a B2 but since it was "derived" from a "proven hull design" I feel pretty certain that it the Lostman nor the Mitzi is be suitable for 2-3 foot chop. 

The Panga would be the best choice of the boats listed IMHO. Look at the 18's available now. 

You might also look at a nice used Hewes, Lake and Bay, Maverick or Mako 17. Even Action Craft is limited to 2 foot seas IMHO.


----------



## tom_in_orl (Dec 9, 2006)

3 foot chop is some serious seas for a flats boat. One more question. How many people do you want to carry comfortably?


----------



## gheenoeguy (Mar 27, 2007)

I run my Classic in A 2 foot chop. I get beat up and soaked but it does okay. I don't want anything larger then A 60 HP. I'm thinking all these boats should handle A 2 foot chop better then mine does.


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2007)

> I run my Classic in A 2 foot chop. I get beat up and soaked but it does okay. I don't want anything larger then A 60 HP. I'm thinking all these boats should handle A 2 foot chop better then mine does.


To handle chop, you will need more "V". More "V" requires more HP.  You should keep looking into the Panga IMHO. Handles chop and requires less HP.l  I think that's the route I'm going when I replace the offshore boat. Check out the Andors 18 (http://www.androsboats.com/#) and the Panga Marine 18 (http://www.pangamarine.com/pangaskiff.html).


----------



## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

A gheenoe won't take a 2 foot chop very well at all unless you slow plane and put a cup on unless you have a low tide. 

A lostmen isn't very fun in a two foot chop but once you get to your fishing grounds it is an amazing fishing platform.

The beavertail is a great hull, but once again no fun in the chop but, slightly better then the lostmen.

if I were you, I would go with the panga marnine 18' skiff. 50hp yamaha tiller would suit the boat perfectly


----------



## JoeWelbourn (Dec 11, 2006)

I agree with the Panga Marine recommendation. For the record, I did go to the SkyWay Bridge from Fort DeSoto in 3-5 foot seas in a Classic (with fulldeck and 2 bilge pumps). In summary----BRUTAL!! I was jumping from wave top to wave top. Knocked my fuel line completely off 3 times. Do-able but serously danderous. I only did it to say I did it. Do not try this as home  

As for the Panga Marine, Rob McDaniel makes a great Panga. If cash is tight go with the 14 foot Tiller. With motor I think lesst than $9,000.

Joe


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

> A gheenoe won't take a 2 foot chop very well at all unless you slow plane and put a cup on unless you have a low tide.
> 
> A lostmen isn't very fun in a two foot chop but once you get to your fishing grounds it is an amazing fishing platform.
> 
> ...


Very good grasshopper.


----------



## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

What does the new liner have anything to do with the ride of the Lostmen? It has the same bottom as the "old" Lostmen right?

The best boat for the chop listed here is definitely the Panga. I have been in RJ's and it rides great. A real "chop eater!"


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

I have the new liner in my Lostmen and I like it alot .I have not spent any time in the old boat.I have not had any problem in chop at all .I do not care if the b2 or the freaking panga or the watermen or the mitzi or the terripan or the gheenoe rides better in chop buy what you like!There thats better all you hardcore boat critics !


----------



## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

i seriously doubt you are going thru 2-3 ft chop in your lostmen


----------



## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

> i seriously doubt you are going thru 2-3 ft chop in your lostmen


I did yesterday @ Wabasso/IRL ;D
I didn't want too but we did...
Cruised @ 26-28 and did fine.

New liner+stringers+newer layup= a much better ride


----------



## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

> Cruised @ 26-28 and did fine.
> 
> New liner+stringers+newer layup= a much better ride



ok, maybe better ride, but get off the 










because no lostmen will run 26-28 in 2-3 chop, yet any flats boat

and it doesn't get 2-3 inside wabasso either, that waterway isn't big enough


----------



## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

Pinfish. I wasnt being critical. Just curious.

TailStalker. I understand the new liner, new stringer, and other upgrades would improve the quality of the boat making it more durable and have less flex in the floor. But the bottom hasnt changed at all so the boat still basically rides the same right? I dont know so I am just asking.


----------



## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

> > Cruised @ 26-28 and did fine.
> >
> > New liner+stringers+newer layup= a much better ride
> 
> ...




Ohh RJ : it seems your wrong as I was running around the area w/a bunch of guys ( in a bunch of different boats ) in the ICW and I know what chop/swell height. I know people over state how rough the water is all the time but if I say we ran it. We ran it... 

And anytime you wanna see what a lostmen will do, hitch a ride w/an older Lostmen ( Capt. Nate ) as he's running outta inlet up there on nice/decent days and there's those type of swells there all the time or hop on a newer lostmen w/one of us or customers and we can show you it can do it. You can do it in a Gheenoe, Gladesmen etc.
So are you sure it "can't be done"? Anything is possible.
Good day!
Kevin


----------



## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

> Pinfish. I wasnt being critical. Just curious.
> 
> TailStalker. I understand the new liner, new stringer, and other upgrades would improve the quality of the boat making it more durable and have less flex in the floor. But the bottom hasnt changed at all so the boat still basically rides the same right? I dont know so I am just asking.



Yes your right, but when you change the build and add these things it gives the skiff ( any skiff )as a whole a new feel to it which will help the ride quality as other strength factors as well...
Hope this helps/
Kev


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

I don't know how anyone with a conscience can tell this guy to run a flat bottomed boat in 2-3 foot chop.  

Whatever.


----------



## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

Would I run this type of water on a regular basis? No. Did I run "into" this yesterday? Yes.
Did I fly through it sipping tea and crackers and stayed dry without a lick of spray? Heck no...
Point I'm trying to make is you can push a skiff to do what you want it to. I've taken my Gladesmen on ocean-side in the keys and had to deal with the weather and seas getting nasty. 
i've seen Gheens/Glademsen's in Boca Grande Pass on nasty days...

Yesterday with an outgoing tide, 15+ winds from the N-N.E. and going through the main span of the ICW in Sebastain/Wabbaso

WHILE Trawlers/Sport Yachts cruising by you can make some nasty water....
As a boat builder,long time surfer, and angler I can't believe my post makes you wonder on MY area I was running.
Is it smart to run in this type of water?No. Can you do it....YES, it CAN BE DONE and was done.

Point I'm trying to make is IT CAN BE DONE!

You want input from us industry guys but yet some of you ruin it for the majority of members on here. :-?


----------



## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

> I don't know how anyone with a conscience can tell this guy to run a flat bottomed boat in  2-3 foot chop.
> 
> Whatever.



X2

And i have fished on a couple different lostmen. I know exactly how they ride. And riding out an inlet on calm swell days says nothing about what a boat does when it is snotty.

The intercoastal can not sustain 2-3 foot chop on a N-NE 15-20 mph wind. It does not have the fetch nor the depth to build it up and maintain it. Throw in the section across the inlet and and few boat big boat makes does not make for sustained 2-3ft chop. Big sections yes, not sustained.

Tampa Bay, different story. Run it straight across the middle of tampa bay in a N-NW 15-20mph wind. 

The lostman, a hells bay, a gordon, a maverick, or any other type flats boat with a flatbottom and just a v in the bow is going to beat the living snot out of you in 2-3 foot chop. That little bit of V won't make any difference of breaking away water when the chop gets that big. A foot to foot and a half, they will fly right over it. Get a smack here and there, but definitely able to be done over and over.


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

> ............ I want something that is dry running and will run through A 2 to 3 foot chop with out getting my head beat in..........


----------



## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

> > I don't know how anyone with a conscience can tell this guy to run a flat bottomed boat in  2-3 foot chop.
> >
> > Whatever.
> 
> ...


Bingo...but the probplem was it area HAD the chop/crest height and we went through it. I did have water coming over the bow and the bilge did a good job ( 700gph ) keeping water outta the cockpit. Dude, you don't get it do you? i went in some nasty water but notice how I didn't say it was pleasant...it wasn't fun,but after the run I had yesterday and the week at Sam's tounrey runn'n around outside of bunce's pass...our new lostmen is very solid. trim out/tabs up gets the bow high and you'll pound right on top w/one coming over every now and then.
ANY skiff can do it RJ...not just ours. it's also not fun but again it can/was done...
I think you need to stop smoking the crack pipe and stop trying to win this. Were both right here man.
i went through 2' chop/swells and it was nasty...but I did it.


----------



## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

> > ............ I want something that is dry running and will run through A 2 to 3 foot chop with out getting my head beat in..........



i can read ron...
i know what he is looking for but my replies was to RJ's post about a "flats boat" can't do it. I build skiffs not flats boats but if my "skiff" did it. don't ya think a 21' Mav MA could?
Any to keep this post on track...the panga is a skiff but not a true skiff when comparing it to the others he's looking at. I sure won't want to pole a panga in wind.
maybe someday soon we'll build a flats boat...but for now we build skiffs.

Kev


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

> > > I don't know how anyone with a conscience can tell this guy to run a flat bottomed boat in 2-3 foot chop.
> > >
> > > Whatever.
> >
> ...


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

> I'm talking with some family about going in half on A nice used flats skiff. We want to spend about 15 to $18,000 on the best skiff for the money. I've even considered the 17 Panga. If it were you, what boat would you buy? I want something that is dry running and will run through A 2 to 3 foot chop with out getting my head beat in. Or if you could think of a better skiff for about the same money. THANKS


----------



## rcmay (Dec 12, 2006)

> > > ............ I want something that is dry running and will run through A 2 to 3 foot chop with out getting my head beat in..........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kevin, Ive only fished out of one lostmen, and it was a earlier model and I do know they are made differently now. But the boat I rode in was wetter than I expected, but I think thats a reasonable trade of for how skinny the boat ran/floated and for how stable it is. Everything is a trade off in the boat world, if it floats skinny it rides like crap, if it rides good it probably doesnt float very skinny(more than 10 inches). If I were looking for a boat that rode well above everything else, I would have to expect that the same boat is probably going to draft more than your average TPS.


----------



## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

Thank you Ron.

I hope nobody ever put's they ran a micro-skiff,skiff, or flats through 2 foot chop ever again on this forum as I hope the few of you experts on here will jump there chit. 

Kevin
East Cape


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

Only a Lake and Bay and it's not a microskiff.  ;D ;D ;D ;D


----------



## TailStalker (Dec 13, 2006)

> > > > ............ I want something that is dry running and will run through A 2 to 3 foot chop with out getting my head beat in..........
> >
> >
> >
> ...




i agree...my point was IT CAN BE DONE and the few on this thread are telling me otherwise. Hell, I know what a boat can do well and can;t do...that's not my arguement. We also need to be exact on a skiff vs. flats boat
Two different styles of boats IMHO, but based after the posts on this thread there's WAY more knowledge than just mine. I no expert by any means but when somene is calling me "BS" on what any skiff can do I think is a good reason why I shouldn't post on here.

with all the so-called advice/knowledge Capt. Ron has and all the skiffs he has owed/owns...you'd think he could figure this out. I guess he just buys boats and doesn't use them?

Again Rob, I agree w/you 100%...
POOF! I'm done


----------



## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

> Only a Lake and Bay and it's not a microskiff.  ;D ;D ;D ;D



60mph thru 4 foot chop!


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

> > > > > ............ I want something that is dry running and will run through A 2 to 3 foot chop with out getting my head beat in..........
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ...


How do you think I know?  Grady 273 Chase handled 2- 3' chop well.


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

> > Only a Lake and Bay and it's not a microskiff.  ;D ;D ;D ;D
> 
> 
> 
> 60mph thru 4 foot chop!



The classic thread was revived the other day but now I can't find it. : : Still funny though. ;D ;D ;D


----------



## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

We also need to be exact on a skiff vs. flats boat
Two different styles of boats IMHO


Tailstalker....I am not stupid, just ignorant on this issue I suppose, and I am really curious. What is the difference between a skiff and a flats boat? I am not trying to start more crap. Just would like to know. Isnt a skiff a boat made to float shallow, to go up on the "flats" hence the term "flats boat". Is skiff just a cool name for flats boat? I guess its all semantics. Someone set me straight.


----------



## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

> I'm talking with some family about going in half on A nice used flats skiff. We want to spend about 15 to $18,000 on the best skiff for the money. I've even considered the 17 Panga. If it were you, what boat would you buy? I want something that is dry running and will run through A 2 to 3 foot chop with out getting my head beat in. Or if you could think of a better skiff for about the same money. THANKS



kevin you are reading the wrong way into this. we are not bashing your precious lostemen. when someone asks for a boat that can handle 2-3 foot chop without getting their head beat it, getting a boat that will get you through it, "unpleasant", and having water come over the bow are not phrases I would want to hear about as per the qualification. my lifetime of experience on the water and others on here think a "bay" type boat is the better recomendation. lets entertain that idea for a minute of the symantics game between "skiff" and "flats" boats. 

Skiff
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The term skiff is used, and has been used, to refer to many various types of seemingly unrelated small boats. The word has a complicated etymology: it comes from the Middle English skif, which derives from the Old French esquif, which in turn derives from the Old Italian schifo, which is itself of Germanic origin. The word is related to ship.
One current usage of skiff is to refer to a typically small flat-bottomed open boat with a pointed bow and a flat stern originally developed as an inexpensive and easy to build boat for use by inshore fishermen. Originally designed to be powered by rowing, their form has evolved so that they are efficiently powered by outboard motors. The design is still in common use today for both work and pleasure craft.
The Thames skiff is a round-bottom clinker-built boat that is still very common on the River Thames and other rivers in England and featured in the famous book about a journey up the Thames, Three Men in a Boat. During the year, skiffing regattas are held in various river-side towns - the major event being the Skiff Championships at Henley.
Another current usage of skiff is to refer to a type of high performance sailing dinghy, one that usually features an asymmetrical spinnaker and requires that the crew use a trapeze to help balance the boat. Examples include: 29er, 49er, 18 footer, Musto Skiff, and International 14.


The only thing I find on flats boat is

flats boat 
Type of small, inshore saltwater fishing boat with moderate deadrise and draft, usually equipped with a raised platform aft used by a guide pushing a long pole to silently maneuver the boat through shallow tidal water.

Since Panga was mentioned, we'll list that too

The Panga

The Central American/Mexican version of a skiff is generally called a 'Panga'. The term "Panga" was used historically for any small boat other than dugout canoes. Today it usually refers to an open "semi-dory" type skiff.
Pangas form the backbone of the small-scale fishing effort in Mexico, Central America and much of the Caribbean.
Pangas are usually between 19 and 28 feet in length, with capacities ranging from 1 to 5 tons and powered by outboard motors of between 45hp and 200hp. They are planing hulls capable of speeds in excess of 35 knots.
The hulls are made of Fiberglass or FRP, heavily reinforced by numerous bulkheads and usually have bow and stern enclosed flotation compartments.
In the hands of an experienced operator they are considered extremely seaworthy. Most pangas are expected to have a working life of between 5 to 10 years if properly maintained.

Panga seems to stay within itself. But the I would have to say the lines between a skiff and flats boat have been blurred in modern designs to combine the best of both.


----------



## aaronshore (Aug 24, 2007)

Damn RJ, you're too smart for your own good. A+


----------



## brew1891 (Dec 10, 2006)

gheenoguy--

in the abstract of course the panga will handle the chop better but i think in order to answer your question better it would be helpful to know:

1. where are you fishing most of the time? do you encounter 2-3 foot waves EVERY time you go out? or are you just worried about when it gets sloppy occasionally?
2. how do you normally fish? poling the flats? slingin bait under docks? running the beach? just sitting and drowning mullet?

You may just need a flats boat with some "v" to it...or a bay boat may be better but it really depends on HOW you fish as well. As kevin pointed out, the panga would not be fun to pole and i dont think it would do that well for dock type fishing. But the panga would be great for lots of other types of fishing. I have been on a 16 waterman in a very choppy IRL and it was no fun (just ask fatalbert!) and i have gone from pine island down to captiva on a back country pro guide 171 on a rough afternoon and i think i am still wet from that ride ...but 99% of the time both of those boats dont see that type of weather.


----------



## JRH (Mar 18, 2007)

Like clockwork.


----------



## gheenoeguy (Mar 27, 2007)

I'm not looking at running WOT in A 2 to 3 foot chop. I run my Classic at WOT in A 2 foot chop and get the crap beat out of me. When I slow down and run at 15 to 20 MPH it feels a whole lot better. I've read customers reviews on the Bevertail and customers say they could run through A 3 foot chop. I fish in my buddys Hewes 16 with A 115 Yami on it and we get the crap beat out of us at any speed. He used to have A 14.5 Scout with A 40 Yami and we didn't get the crap beat out of us. Why would A 14 foot scout do better then his Hewes? Some of these hulls do better then others. Maybe the Scout had A deeper deadrise. Before we spend our money I want the best boat for the money. I don't want to spend $18,000 for A good used boat and say it doesn't do much better then my Classic. I've gone out in the morning and it's glass and had to come back in A 3 foot chop at 5 MPH with water pouring over my bow and my bilge pump running non stop with water up to my ankles. I even bent my Gheenoe trolling motor bracket that day. This was not fun. I did feel safe but what if my battery died that day. It was at the end of the day using my trolling motor the whole day and what if the seas kicked up to 3 to 4? My buddy took his NMZ with A 15 Merc to the west coast and could not make it back. He thought he was going under and luckily made it to land where he hitchhiked back to where he launched and unloaded everything off his boat and the 2 of them carried the boat to the trailer. I dont want this to be me.


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

> Like clockwork.


Yeah, but did we allow for DLST? ;D ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

> ...... say they could run through A 3 foot chop.


Go look at your kitchen cabinets and your counter top height should be around 34-36 inches. 3' rollers are one thing but sit on a chair and look at the floor - then the counter top and that's 3' seas. Do it in the safety of your own kitchen because winter is coming. Maybe someone will throw cold water at you while you do this.. ;D ;D



> .
> ...... I've gone out in the morning and it's glass and had to come back in A 3 foot chop at 5 MPH with water pouring over my bow and my bilge pump running non stop with water up to my ankles.....


Welcome to boating. Had a Grady 273 w/twins and would head out in 2' chop. Problem was seas would build while I was out and had to come back in 6.  Didn't seen to matter how big the boat is, just always had bad luck after watching the weather reports closely. : Your asking the right questions, just need to try the boats for yourself. You have to compromise somewhere.

As always, just my .000000000000000000002 sense.


----------



## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

About teh beavertail, see above comments about Lake and Bay. that is an ongoing joke that is brought up all the time about boats doing way more than they actually do. the scout may give a better ride because of the 11 degree deadrise that will cut through chop better even though it is sacrificing some length along hte waterline. The hewes is designed to be a lighter weight boat and still float shallow for flats and back country, bigger suface area to absorb more water on impact would give the more uncomfortable ride you talk about. I am sure hewes has some deadrise but they do not list it, and that could be a contributing factor. Best thing going right now is that it is a buyers market. If you think there is a particular boat you like, go take a ride from a dealership in a new one. See what you think, and then wait for a good used one of that same make and model if that is the one you like. Answer yourself honestly about what you will be mostly using the boat for and buy accordingly.


----------



## phishphood (Dec 15, 2006)

Let me start by saying I don't know nuttin bout no boats, but I'm still a bit bruised from a trip from Lopez park down to Haulover and back in my buddies Hewes Redfisher 18. Downwind on the ride down through steady 2 footers was rough. Coming back into the wind was brutal and wet to boot. Just ask GregT how his ride was on the cooler in front of the console. Just thought I'd share.


----------



## grego (Oct 17, 2007)

A big v or a cat are the only boats that will take a 2-3 foot chop and still enjoy your self. Is this microskiff or seevee.com


----------



## Guest (Nov 5, 2007)

> A big v or a cat are the only boats that will take a 2-3 foot chop and still enjoy your self. Is this microskiff or seevee.com


Add: Regulator
Contender
Yellowfin

You get the picture.


----------



## gheenoeguy (Mar 27, 2007)

I get it, A 24 degree deadrise will do the trick.


----------



## Guest (Nov 5, 2007)

> I get it, A 24 degree deadrise will do the trick.


Except we are limited with your HP requirement.


----------



## costefishnt (Dec 11, 2006)

> > Cruised @ 26-28 and did fine.
> >
> > New liner+stringers+newer layup= a much better ride
> 
> ...


Absolutely the phunniest retort ever posted on this forum, and for that I thank you RJ. I need a new keyboard now!



oh, and i have ran my gheenoe through more nasty crap than all of you combined, WOT 82' seas, maintained 30mph and never got wet, except when it started raining, but when i was struck with lightening I dried up quickly.

I :heart: E-Drama


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2007)

Gheenoeguy,

I sugguest u go look at keywest or keylargo 18CC and I really love this boat......handle the chop 2 to 4ft waves high and stayed very dry. I can go skinny fishing in the flats with my trolling motor in the morning for catching cobia, snook, tarpon and reds and go offshore 20 to 30 miles out in the gulf in the afternoon to catch some cobia, sharks, and kings. I miss my boat so much.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2007)

> Gheenoeguy,
> 
> I sugguest u go look at keywest or keylargo 18CC and I really love this boat......handle the chop 2 to 4ft waves high and stayed very dry. I can go skinny fishing in the flats with my trolling motor in the morning for catching cobia, snook, tarpon and reds and go offshore 20 to 30 miles out in the gulf in the afternoon to catch some cobia, sharks, and kings. I miss my boat so much.


Max HP requirement is 60 HP.

Boat suggested requires at least a 90 although I wouldn't go less than a 115.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2007)

> > > Cruised @ 26-28 and did fine.
> > >
> > > New liner+stringers+newer layup= a much better ride
> >
> ...


Splains the Black Bote you crispy critter.  ;D ;D


----------



## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

Helmet Sold Seperatly... ;D


----------



## Guest (Nov 7, 2007)

> Helmet Sold Seperatly... ;D


Yep, looks like 4 to 6 to me. :

Seat looks padded  Couldn't be to keep his nads intact could it. :


----------



## costefishnt (Dec 11, 2006)

> > Helmet Sold Seperatly... ;D
> 
> 
> Yep, looks like 4 to 6 to me. :
> ...


i snope'd this picture and it was actually 3-4' and the boat actually sunk. just goes to show you, yew cant trust all that is on the internet


----------



## orlgheenoer (Dec 10, 2006)

a three foot chop is freaking huge!!!!!!!

any polling skiff would have there work cut out for them so it appears.

but swells are a different storey, I ran through some 4 foot swells up at ponce in a skiff and it was kinda fun you just gotta watch how you use the throttle and position the boat


----------

