# Why does my spinning reel do this?



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Looks like a bad bail design.


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## Gervais (Nov 28, 2016)

Did the bail get twisted around some how? The string should ride on the bail wire all the way to the roller correct? Looks like the bracket holding it got twisted 90 degrees counterclockwise


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

The bail wire looks bent to me. Any chance it took a hard knock? I'd replace the bail. That, or cut the wire off, grind it flush with a dremel and tell everybody it's a Van Staal.


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## MAK (Dec 15, 2017)

Gervais said:


> Did the bail get twisted around some how? The string should ride on the bail wire all the way to the roller correct? Looks like the bracket holding it got twisted 90 degrees counterclockwise


Yep, certainly looks like that’s the problem to me.


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## richg99 (Nov 28, 2009)

Put it next to a working spinning reel. Then, using the working reel as a model, bend the bail back to its original position. It appears that it got bent somewhere along the way.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Damn. Take some line off that thing.


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## MAK (Dec 15, 2017)

Not the same reel but looks like same problem. Your bail is about 90 degrees out of correct position so that the line flows smoothly off end of bail onto the roller bearing. Likely due to bent bail as mentioned above. First pic shows correct orientation, second shows it 90 degrees out of position so that the bearing cap catches the line and it doesn’t smoothly flow off the end of wire. Just needs to be bent back so the bearing cap that holds the end of the bail wire is in correct position.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

jmrodandgun said:


> Damn. Take some line off that thing.


Maybe he just needs to walk it out and reel it up with some tension on it.


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## SC Bill (Jul 22, 2017)

Carl

The "roller bearing thingy" is called the "line roller".

Your bail does appear to be bent. The bail's job when engaged after a cast is merely to deliver the line roller. A bail bent forward of the line roller, as in your picture, will not be able to deliver the line to the line roller.

The line roller appears to be in the correct orientation to me.

Same as both my Quantum Cabo and Shimano Stradic.

Also note the the bail wire on both of my reels is aft of the line roller.


















I also agree you have too much braid on the spool. Typically, you want to leave 1/8" gap between the line and the inner lower lip of your spool. While this isn't likely the issue you've mentioned, the 1/8" gap will help prevent line speed knots (sometimes called wind knots) with braid. If you leave more than an 1/8" gap, or you trim off braid over time thus increasing the gap, the distance you can cast will diminish somewhat due to spool drag resulting in decreased line speed coming off the spool.

Also, your reel is not spooling evenly due to setup.









IMO, to get your reel heathy and functioning properly, replace the bail, take some line off the spool and add one washer to the reels main shaft (what the spool attaches to). The latter should allow for even spooling of line onto the spool.

Once you replaced the bail and added a washer, I would go to a park and walk out the entire length of braid. Then with a wet cloth towel holding the braid, reel in the braid under pressure.

Hope this helps.

Yes, I need to add some line to the Stradic. And the Cabo is spooling evening, the image was captured at an angle.

As a side note, when I put braid on a reel for the first time, I establish one layer of mono on the spool. Mono prevents the braid from slipping on the spool. I tie the braid to the mono using the FG knot. I then reel in the braid using the wet towel method until the line is 1/8" for the lip. I then walk out 75 yards of braid and cut the line at that point. I tie the cut sections back together with a double Uni knot using 10 warps per Uni.

When I need to add line as in the case of the Stradic, I simply walk out the line to the double Uni knot, cut out the old knot, tie in the new line with a new double Uni and reel in fresh 75 yards of braid. I can get 4 new sections of braid out of a 300y of Power Pro braid. I fish around a lot of oyster racks so this technique saves a lot of coin compared to re-spooling with an entire spool of new braid.

I have yet to have a fish (even a bull red) take 75y off the reel. But, the double Uni knot will slip through the guides without issue if a fish does manage to get that far into the spool.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Bails on spinning reels are always a problem since it's never very hard to bend one just enough out of position so that it doesn't work properly... The first fix I'd do if you brought the reel to me - as already noted - remove some of that braid.... off the spool (and that alone might just fix your problem...). Braid doesn't behave like monofilament and if you load up a spool with it - you're going to have problems... Next, as already noted I'd want a brand new reel (same model) to compare to yours since that's almost the only way to see whether the bail on a used reel is where it ought to be... Once you see that it needs to be re-shaped then you bend it a little at a time until it approximates the new reel... No not very scientific - but that's what spinners require from time to time..


Lastly, with braid there's some things you can do to minimize problems... The very first is not to rely on that automatic bail closing sequence where the bail snaps closed when you turn the handle... After turning handle and closing the bail - make a point of seeing exactly where the line is - then move it onto the roller if it didn't get there on it's own... One way of assisting that closing bail is simply to raise the rod tip up as you turn the handle (the line needs a bit of tension for the bail to work properly..).

All of this sounds kind of amateurish -but it works... I was first taught to repair reels back in 1972, working at the old Reef Tackle shop on 79th St in Miami - and I've kept at it for many years now. I used to have commercial operators bring be reels by the five gallon bucket full to repair - but now only repair reels for my own anglers (and then only if asked...).


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## SC Bill (Jul 22, 2017)

lemaymiami said:


> Bails on spinning reels are always a problem since it's never very hard to bend one just enough out of position so that it doesn't work properly... The first fix I'd do if you brought the reel to me - as already noted - remove some of that braid.... off the spool (and that alone might just fix your problem...). Braid doesn't behave like monofilament and if you load up a spool with it - you're going to have problems... Next, as already noted I'd want a brand new reel (same model) to compare to yours since that's almost the only way to see whether the bail on a used reel is where it ought to be... Once you see that it needs to be re-shaped then you bend it a little at a time until it approximates the new reel... No not very scientific - but that's what spinners require from time to time..
> 
> 
> Lastly, with braid there's some things you can do to minimize problems... The very first is not to rely on that automatic bail closing sequence where the bail snaps closed when you turn the handle... After turning handle and closing the bail - make a point of seeing exactly where the line is - then move it onto the roller if it didn't get there on it's own... One way of assisting that closing bail is simply to raise the rod tip up as you turn the handle (the line needs a bit of tension for the bail to work properly..).
> ...


Nothing amateurish Bob. What you and I take for granted and common knowledge may not be so much.

Indeed, always manually close the bail when using braid, then give the line a tug with your reel hand or raise the tip to put the line under tension before reeling. Braid has to be under some tension when on the spool.

I failed to mention in my above post. After re-spooling or adding 75 yards of new line. Once I get on the boat and motor out with no other boats around, I will let the line out behind the boat until I get to the double Uni knot. I will then reel in the line under water tension. This helps negate the line memory from being on the new spool and puts the line under proper tension on the spool.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

I’ll post this again...
Hook a lure on a mailbox or fence post and walk your line out then reel it back up tight as you can.


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## m32825 (Jun 29, 2018)

Wow, you guys are awesome! Why did it take me so long to think of asking?

I compared it with the one that has no problem and sure enough, the line rides all the way to the line roller on the bail wire there. Did a little bending to make them match and now the line drops right in every time on my problem child!

I'm going to pay more attention to how I stow the rods to keep the bail from contacting anything while I'm under way. Almost certain that is how this one got messed up.

I learned some good stuff today, thanks to all who responded!

-- Carl


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## SC Bill (Jul 22, 2017)

Carl

All of the above tips and techniques I offered were shown to me by others over the 5 decades I've been fishin'. Happy to pass them on.

Glad you got the issue sorted out. When a spinning reel starts acting up, fishin' with it is no fun.

Also, before removing line from your spool, add a washer to the shaft. This will cause the spool to extend slightly further forward and spool the line evenly across the spool. Once you adjust and re-spool the line, you might have the 1/8" gap at the lip.









Not a great screenshot, but, you should get the idea.

Your reel should have come with a set of washers for this adjustment. If not or you no longer have, a local retailer should have a bunch laying around. Washers generally are not reel specific.


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## m32825 (Jun 29, 2018)

Ok, we didn't get to the point where anyone got called names, so I'm circling back on a couple points...



Suggestions were made to reduce the amount of line on the spool and to change the winding shape. I am open to experimenting, but would like to understand the goal.

I'm using 6lb PowerPro braid, have zero wind knots issues, and it casts a mile. What is going to work better by using less line or changing the winding shape?

Educate me, thanks!

-- Carl


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## SC Bill (Jul 22, 2017)

m32825 said:


> Ok, we didn't get to the point where anyone got called names, so I'm circling back on a couple points...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, in that case, I'd leave well enough alone. But, if you do start having line speed/wind knot issues, I'd make a spool adjustment with washers to get even line spooling before I removed line. Here's a good article regarding the subject. You don't have the groove at the lip which is probably why you're not having a knot issue, but, you're awfully close to the lip. If a bunch of slippery braid gets over the lip all at one time, you'll have a heck of a bird's nest.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

It's a good habbit to flip the bail manually and pull the line tight with every cast especially when using braid... problem solved.


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## Tautog166 (Jul 7, 2018)

Take some line off. What I do whenever I use my spinning outfits is, after the cast, close the reel manually and give the line a light tug. This will put the line on the roller and eliminate any loose line issues on the spool.

Edit: Krash and I must have been typing simultaneously.


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## fjmaverick (Sep 18, 2015)

I have a Penn 704z I had the bail straightened on when it was rebuilt. They are popular without a bail also.


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## m32825 (Jun 29, 2018)

fjmaverick said:


> I have a Penn 704z I had the bail straightened on when it was rebuilt. They are popular without a bail also.


Ok, my mind just boggled. How does a spinning reel without a bail work?


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## fjmaverick (Sep 18, 2015)

m32825 said:


> Ok, my mind just boggled. How does a spinning reel without a bail work?


It's popular with surf fisherman. You use your hand to put the line on the line roller.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Many years ago (back in the Stone Age...) when spinning reels weren't exactly top gear... the line rollers they came with wouldn't turn very well and if you hooked a big fish with one - you might chew up your line during the fight... Along came folks wanting to go after big fish on light line (for world records, club records, or just in competition...) that fiddled and messed around with their reels - finally coming to learn that getting rid of the bail on a spinning reel and adding a line roller that actually worked would allow you to get on top of a big fish and actually have a chance at winning with a 10 to 1 fish or greater (a ten to one refers to a fish that's 10 times heavier than the line strength in use - a 100lb tarpon on 10lb line is a good example...).

Years ago, back when I was a club angler (the old Tropical Anglers Club - google them up - they're still going strong in Miami...) all of my spinners were set up with manual rollers (you simply picked up the line then turned the reel handle to allow the roller to pick up the line...). No this kind of gear isn't for beginners - but learn to use it properly and you're in business every time with no bail to get in the way...

In later years as spinning reels were improved anyone could buy a spinner that had a line roller that actually worked so the drive to modify existing reels simply disappeared. One of the few manual roller reels that found some commercial acceptance was the old Penn #706 (a 704 with a manual roller). Another one, still in production is the Van Staal - but those are high dollar reels...

Hope this helps. Here are a few pics of an old favorite of mine that I put aside more than 23 years ago as I was setting up to come back to guiding full time...








This is a very old Penn 722 set up with a manual roller - a perfect setup for 4 to 8lb line. The arm was custom machined out of bar stock aluminum by local teacher and fanatic angler Herman Voss back in the 1970's... The actual roller was a Mitchell 306 part - it's what we all used when we could get them....









This old reel had the following catches... 11lb bonefish on 6lb line, 11lb permit on 4lb line, and a 30lb 'cuda on 6lb line....









If I quit guiding tomorrow this old reel might just come back into service... I also hooked a half dozen sailfish with it (trying for a six pound record) but they always out-ran me...


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

lemaymiami said:


> Many years ago (back in the Stone Age...) when spinning reels weren't exactly top gear... the line rollers they came with wouldn't turn very well and if you hooked a big fish with one - you might chew up your line during the fight... Along came folks wanting to go after big fish on light line (for world records, club records, or just in competition...) that fiddled and messed around with their reels - finally coming to learn that getting rid of the bail on a spinning reel and adding a line roller that actually worked would allow you to get on top of a big fish and actually have a chance at winning with a 10 to 1 fish or greater (a ten to one refers to a fish that's 10 times heavier than the line strength in use - a 100lb tarpon on 10lb line is a good example...).
> 
> Years ago, back when I was a club angler (the old Tropical Anglers Club - google them up - they're still going strong in Miami...) all of my spinners were set up with manual rollers (you simply picked up the line then turned the reel handle to allow the roller to pick up the line...). No this kind of gear isn't for beginners - but learn to use it properly and you're in business every time with no bail to get in the way...
> 
> ...


Awesome post, super cool reel^!


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## SC Bill (Jul 22, 2017)

lemaymiami said:


> Many years ago (back in the Stone Age...) when spinning reels weren't exactly top gear... the line rollers they came with wouldn't turn very well and if you hooked a big fish with one - you might chew up your line during the fight... Along came folks wanting to go after big fish on light line (for world records, club records, or just in competition...) that fiddled and messed around with their reels - finally coming to learn that getting rid of the bail on a spinning reel and adding a line roller that actually worked would allow you to get on top of a big fish and actually have a chance at winning with a 10 to 1 fish or greater (a ten to one refers to a fish that's 10 times heavier than the line strength in use - a 100lb tarpon on 10lb line is a good example...).
> 
> Years ago, back when I was a club angler (the old Tropical Anglers Club - google them up - they're still going strong in Miami...) all of my spinners were set up with manual rollers (you simply picked up the line then turned the reel handle to allow the roller to pick up the line...). No this kind of gear isn't for beginners - but learn to use it properly and you're in business every time with no bail to get in the way...
> 
> ...


Very nice Bob! Thanks for sharing!

I have my grandfather's 772 (in storage as we now have a very very small house) and it is set near identically to yours. He gave me a "low budget", made in France, Mitchell 300 (still have) for my birthday in 1959. In the late 50s, he taught me to manually close the bail; been doing it ever since. My grandfather lived in St Cloud but fished all over South FLA and Cuba in the late 40s and 50s.


Automatic bail closing is a relative new (perhaps 50s/60s) feature I seem to recall.


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## MAK (Dec 15, 2017)

I still have an old Penn 706 from when we lived in Bwk, Ga in the late 70s, early 80s. I took it for a visit to the pier earlier this year. 
I’ve still got a couple Mitchell reels. A 300 and a 330 with the flip-open bail. Those were my first non-zebco reels given to me by my grandfather. Used the heck out of those and caught tons of fish for many years. Loved that 330 with the trigger bail. Worked flawless as long as I kept it clean. They would still get some use by me if they had a silent anti-reverse...


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## m32825 (Jun 29, 2018)

Captain LeMay,

Thanks for the education and history lesson.

I have to confess that I've always been one of those guys who just turn the crank until the line starts coming in without any thought of how it happens. That worked great... until it didn't!



Do you provide spinning gear for your clients? If so, what reels do you like?

-- Carl


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

My standard load aboard my skiff each day are all spinners -eight of them in pairs. The two lightest are Penn Battle 4000’s with 10lb braid. The next pair are medium light rods (rated for 8 to 17lb line) and are Daiwa 3500’s with 20lb braid. The next pair of rods are rated for 12 to 25lb line and have the old Daiwa Bg20 reels - also loaded with 20lb braid. The last two rods are not matched - one is rated for 15 to 30lb line and has a Penn 6500ss reel loaded with 30lb line. The last rig is the heaviest- a rod rated for 20 to 40lb line with an old Penn 7500ss reel filled with 30lb braid...

Each day I change up my rods depending on what my anglers need -whether it’s fly rods, plug casting rods, or whatever’s needed. By the way.... I’m still building all of the rods I hand my anglers -with rare exception.


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## richg99 (Nov 28, 2009)

What a great thread.


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

Enjoyed !


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## georgiadrifter (Jan 14, 2009)

Bob....if we ever meet....and I’m sure we eventually will...lunch/dinner is on me. I really appreciate all your posts.


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## BobGee (Apr 10, 2019)

lemaymiami said:


> Many years ago (back in the Stone Age...) when spinning reels weren't exactly top gear... the line rollers they came with wouldn't turn very well and if you hooked a big fish with one - you might chew up your line during the fight... Along came folks wanting to go after big fish on light line (for world records, club records, or just in competition...) that fiddled and messed around with their reels - finally coming to learn that getting rid of the bail on a spinning reel and adding a line roller that actually worked would allow you to get on top of a big fish and actually have a chance at winning with a 10 to 1 fish or greater (a ten to one refers to a fish that's 10 times heavier than the line strength in use - a 100lb tarpon on 10lb line is a good example...).
> 
> Years ago, back when I was a club angler (the old Tropical Anglers Club - google them up - they're still going strong in Miami...) all of my spinners were set up with manual rollers (you simply picked up the line then turned the reel handle to allow the roller to pick up the line...). No this kind of gear isn't for beginners - but learn to use it properly and you're in business every time with no bail to get in the way...
> 
> ...


Great post! I always wondered why some reels were set up like that. The handle is cool, too. I remember getting a machined aluminum spool for my old Phluger Medalist fly reel somewhere down in Miami in the 70's. Same kind of thing...


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

The “go to” guy way back then was Herman Voss. He probably turned down the spool on that old Medalist as well (from a solid piece of aluminum). Quite a few of those old solid spool reels still survive today. All of this long before computer controlled machining was available.


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