# Hull Paint Disaster???



## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

WURK2FISH said:


> Building a 1993 Hydro Glass 14 into a Skiff.......
> 
> Sanded and primed the hull using MarPro Fishboat Coatings Undercoat as primer over well-sanded Gelcoat.......
> 
> ...


Is it a 2 part paint? Possible the mix was off on the 3rd application but you should be able to sand back to the 2nd application if it did harden and do another coat with the correct mix ratio


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

One part paint....


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2018)

The solvents in the last coat have pribably softened the previous coats. The humidity isn’t doing you any favors right now either. I would park it in the sun for a few more days and see if that helps.


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

single part paints will never fully harden - even adding a hardener will prove useless

2 part paints and primers are the only way to go


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## Bryson Turner (May 3, 2017)

WURK2FISH said:


> Building a 1993 Hydro Glass 14 into a Skiff.......
> 
> Sanded and primed the hull using MarPro Fishboat Coatings Undercoat as primer over well-sanded Gelcoat.......
> 
> ...





I had the same problem, painted my gheenoe with the same brand and used there hardner hoping that would help. It took close to a month for it to properly cure.... humidity is a bitch.


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

So from what I'm gathering...... I GOT what I payed for it seems......

So my question is....... with some patience in letting this 'PAINT-job' go another week'ish....... will I be removing it all and starting over.....???...... can I go over it with something else.....??? The Color was what I was after...... I'd hate to give that up!!!

OR will it come together at least in a 'CHEAP-Sense'.... until I can afford to get it done by a Professional in the Winter....???

I've got thousands wrapped up in this project already and the fish are biting....... and I'm still in the Garage.....


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2018)

It’s a single part paint, the sun should get it to dry after a few more days. Is it an oil or water based enamel?


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> It’s a single part paint, the sun should get it to dry after a few more days. Is it an oil or water based enamel?



sounds good....but....

works like this - it may feel hard and set - I guarantee you,if you push your thumb nail into it,it will leave a mark...

single part paint will not harden 

again,2 part paints and primers are the way to go.
those cheap low quality paints,rustoleum,interlux briteside,ETC - these are not a good product to use - you're kidding yourself.the price is attractive,that's it - when it comes to materials,you get what you pay for.there's a huge difference between a quality 2 part paint and cheap crap.

other side of the coin is - if the glass work is poorly done,putting a good 2 part finish on it is kind of like putting lip stick on a pig,it's not working....


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

Boatbrains said:


> It’s a single part paint, the sun should get it to dry after a few more days. Is it an oil or water based enamel?


It's an Oil-based Enamel Boatbrains....... it feels better today........ but as Predacious said..... it's still able to be nicked with just a fingernail on the Chines...... 

....... we're expecting rain tomorrow into Thursday so in the Garage it stays for now......

I'm working on Fabbing and Glassing the Center Console for now while I wait and see what it's gonna do


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2018)

Agree fully with you Predacious! I will only use 1pack on machinery or equipment/utility trailers that are gonna take a beating and need repainted often. I am just reassuring the op that it should at least dry and be usable if left alone to cure and get the solvents out. I’d let it sit a few more days, humidity here is so high right now that you get wet just walking out the door in the morning!


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## Bryson Turner (May 3, 2017)

WURK2FISH said:


> So from what I'm gathering...... I GOT what I payed for it seems......
> 
> So my question is....... with some patience in letting this 'PAINT-job' go another week'ish....... will I be removing it all and starting over.....???...... can I go over it with something else.....??? The Color was what I was after...... I'd hate to give that up!!!
> 
> ...


I’d just let it cure for as long as possible keep it in the sun. I found out mine wasn’t fully cured after I had a ratchet strap on it to keep it down on the trailer. It smeared the paint and gummed it all up instead of rubbing it.


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

Bryson Turner said:


> I’d just let it cure for as long as possible keep it in the sun. I found out mine wasn’t fully cured after I had a ratchet strap on it to keep it down on the trailer. It smeared the paint and gummed it all up instead of rubbing it.


How long did you let it cure before trailering it Bryson....???

And I'm quite a ways from THAT.... putting it on a trailer and all..... I'm just wanting to get it flipped over and start putting in the rest of my restoration...... floor..... front and rear casting decks..... center console......

Already fabbed-in the new Transom and ripped out the rotted false floor and glassed-in in prep for Stringers, Foam.... new False floor..... the works......


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

WURK2FISH said:


> How long did you let it cure before trailering it Bryson....???
> 
> And I'm quite a ways from THAT.... putting it on a trailer and all..... I'm just wanting to get it flipped over and start putting in the rest of my restoration...... floor..... front and rear casting decks..... center console......
> 
> Already fabbed-in the new Transom and ripped out the rotted false floor and glassed-in in prep for Stringers, Foam.... new False floor..... the works......



if you've done all that - why didn't you spray the hull in gel coat ? notice I stated "spray"
that's another option,for finishing the hull,that won't cost a lot


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> Agree fully with you Predacious! I will only use 1pack on machinery or equipment/utility trailers that are gonna take a beating and need repainted often. I am just reassuring the op that it should at least dry and be usable if left alone to cure and get the solvents out. I’d let it sit a few more days, humidity here is so high right now that you get wet just walking out the door in the morning!



the big problem comes in when the boat is placed on the trailer bunks,and it's allowed to sit on those bunks - it will stick.stick,due to the cheap paint not being fully cured - notice I didn't mention the fact it will hold dirt and never get clean ? one good point to using a cheap paint on a deck - you'll stick to the deck,keeping you in the boat...


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

predacious said:


> if you've done all that - why didn't you spray the hull in gel coat ? notice I stated "spray"
> that's another option,for finishing the hull,that won't cost a lot


I don't have a sprayer...... but in hindsight with all you've said...... perhaps I should've gottin' one!!!

So HOW do I get all this paint and primer off....???....... LOTSA' sanding!!!???.... or should I wait and see what happens first....???


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

WURK2FISH said:


> I don't have a sprayer...... but in hindsight with all you've said...... perhaps I should've gottin' one!!!
> 
> So HOW do I get all this paint and primer off....???....... LOTSA' sanding!!!???.... or should I wait and see what happens first....???




it sounds to me,you're in over your head

you're asking about paint and i'm answering them...

now,all this you should've thought of before doing anything. it seems your inexperienced with all this


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

predacious said:


> it sounds to me,you're in over your head
> 
> you're asking about paint and i'm answering them...
> 
> now,all this you should've thought of before doing anything. it seems your inexperienced with all this


Well YES...... that would be an 'Accurate' conclusion!!!

I read..... watched Video's...... but obviously fell short on a few points...... I'm a Welder/Fabricator by trade...... painting..... woodwork...... and fiberglass..... ALLLLLLL 'New' to me!!!..... butcha' gotta' start somewhere!!! 

....... and YES..... Anodized is one of my 'Specialties'!!! There's approx. 200 Viking Yachts runnin' around this Planet with Hardtops I did on 'em.


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

WURK2FISH said:


> Well YES...... that would be an 'Accurate' conclusion!!!
> 
> I read..... watched Video's...... but obviously fell short on a few points...... I'm a Welder/Fabricator by trade...... painting..... woodwork...... and fiberglass..... ALLLLLLL 'New' to me!!!..... butcha' gotta' start somewhere!!!
> 
> ....... and YES..... Anodized is one of my 'Specialties'!!! There's approx. 200 Viking Yachts runnin' around this Planet with Hardtops I did on 'em.


The fiberglass hard tops - the ones that go on the pipework - these are composite cored and finished in either gel coat or awlgrip, right ?

No single part paints 

These pieces were made out of a mold - I’m from Nj, the Viking plant was up the parkway from my shop


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

predacious said:


> The fiberglass hard tops - the ones that go on the pipework - these are composite cored and finished in either gel coat or awlgrip, right ?
> 
> No single part paints
> 
> These pieces were made out of a mold - I’m from Nj, the Viking plant was up the parkway from my shop


Yes.... the Tops were made from a Mold....... the 'Pipework' they sit on with the Rocket Launchers and all...... I made those...... as far as all the Gelcoat used in the making of the Hardtops...... I never payed attention back then..... wished I would'of!!!

Glad you made it out of Jersey...... I will when I retire...... or die..... whichever comes first.....

.... I'm not even from NJ...... Chesapeake VA born and raised!!!


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

WURK2FISH said:


> I don't have a sprayer...... but in hindsight with all you've said...... perhaps I should've gottin' one!!!
> 
> So HOW do I get all this paint and primer off....???....... LOTSA' sanding!!!???.... or should I wait and see what happens first....???


Paint stripper and an pressure washer. Sand and start over.

Check around your home town and I will bet you can find a shade tree auto body dude. Make him a deal to spray your boat.


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

DuckNut said:


> Paint stripper and an pressure washer. Sand and start over.
> 
> Check around your home town and I will bet you can find a shade tree auto body dude. Make him a deal to spray your boat.



It's hardening up pretty good now...... I do believe I'm gonna move forward...... finish this thing..... fish till December...... and THENNNNN see about exactly what you said DuckNut!!!

Funny...... the Honda 40 HP Tiller I bought for this thing came off a Duckhunting Boat...... had to RE-do that Camo the guy I bought it off of had done....... gloss black fit's the bill for Fishing a little better.......


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

Valspar anti rust armor with a premium hardener added will give you a very hard finish. Probably not as hard as awlgrip, but pretty darn hard.


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

trekker said:


> Valspar anti rust armor with a premium hardener added will give you a very hard finish. Probably not as hard as awlgrip, but pretty darn hard.


Will keep this on-file........ moving forward with paint AS IS..... TRYING to get finished and get in some fishing before the winter..... should be done this Month.... I hope!!!


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

is that wood ??


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

predacious said:


> is that wood ??


The Hull is Fiberglass.... copying the 'Lappy' Style Hulls I suppose........ 

The Top Decks of course are Wood and being laid-up with Fiberglass on the top after Install...... the bottoms of all the pieces are already done in the photos.......


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

This was the Hull predacious before starting...... '93 Hydro Glass


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2018)

My first rebuild was a boat similar to this one. I way overbuilt it but loved “beat” the crap outta the thing! With that flair she should be a nice dry ride!


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

it's 2018,there's a lot better choices besides wood...

i'm trying not to side track

wood means epoxy...wood also means,100%
sealing...


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

Boatbrains said:


> My first rebuild was a boat similar to this one. I way overbuilt it but loved “beat” the crap outta the thing! With that flair she should be a nice dry ride!


I'm no 'Expert' on Boat Building by any means...... MY first build is right here.... happening NOW.....

The Transom came out nice...... the new floor...... solid as a rock with two-part foam poured under it...... front and back bulkheads...... and the pieces in the pic for the top decks...... installing gussets under the gunnels for added support....... and a TON of accessories to go on it for rigging to include a new Minn Kota Terrova 55 and an HD Down Imaging FF/GPS/Chartplotter...... I DO fish out front some times weather and seas permitting...... HOPEFULLY this 'FIRST Build' holds up!!!!!

Will make a Video when complete!!!


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

predacious said:


> it's 2018,there's a lot better choices besides wood...
> 
> i'm trying not to side track
> 
> ...


$$$$ being an issue when you say that...... AND lack of experience in knowing which way to go on what....... but I HAVE spent a whooooolllle lotta' $$$$$$$ on Fiberglass and Epoxy Resin and Hardener!!!

WHAT could I have used on the floor and transom and decks that would've been a better choice....???


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)




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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

Not mine.... but this Hull on the Water.... love the height and flare of the Bow..... WHYYY I wanted this exact Hull!!!


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

WURK2FISH said:


> View attachment 36290
> View attachment 36292



I don’t know what you used on the Deck - or the transom,as far as a core is concerned 
But...

Nida core is a very light weight,inexpensive material to use. Example:a sheet of nidacore 3/8” costs about $50 retail.its much lighter than plywood of the same size.composites won’t rot,they’re ok to use with polyester resins and products.use aluminum strips where fasteners are to be located,or remove the core and fill that void with an epoxy.
Transom core- coosa board / divinycell are good choices - again, no rotting here.
I have no clue what products you purchased - but polyester products cost less than epoxy products.

Plywood will suck up water like a sponge - it requires total sealing. Fail to seal it, count on having problems down the line.

Not trying to bust your balls but - composites are always a better choice than wood ...

Technology my friend....


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2018)

WURK2FISH said:


> $$$$ being an issue when you say that...... AND lack of experience in knowing which way to go on what....... but I HAVE spent a whooooolllle lotta' $$$$$$$ on Fiberglass and Epoxy Resin and Hardener!!!
> 
> WHAT could I have used on the floor and transom and decks that would've been a better choice....???


You could have used nida core for the decks and floor and pvc foam or corelite or coosa for the transom/stringers. Would be about the same $wise but will never rot. I think you went the right way for your first build, glass work is a constant learning curve and the composites are even more so. Once you get the hang of it, it goes pretty good though! As long as you sealed your wood really good you’ll se many years use from it!


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

predacious said:


> I don’t know what you used on the Deck - or the transom,as far as a core is concerned
> But...
> 
> Nida core is a very light weight,inexpensive material to use. Example:a sheet of nidacore 3/8” costs about $50 retail.its much lighter than plywood of the same size.composites won’t rot,they’re ok to use with polyester resins and products.use aluminum strips where fasteners are to be located,or remove the core and fill that void with an epoxy.
> ...


Will keep this in my back pocket for future endeavors!!! Thanks!!!

I'm sealing alllll the wood best I know how...... not drilling any holes into the floor whatsoever...... and will DEF keep in mind not making any ways for water to enter the wood whatsoever!!!


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

Boatbrains said:


> You could have used noda core for the decks and floor and pvc foam or corelite or coosa for the transom/stringers. Would be about the same $wise but will never rot. I think you went the right way for your first build, glass work is a constant learning curve and the composites are even more so. Once you get the hang of it, it goes pretty good though! As long as you sealed your wood really good you’ll see many years use from it!


I've had my battles learning how to lay up glass for sure!!! Thanks for the tips!!!

My NEXT 'Hurdle'........ is GELCOAT!!! Duhnnnn da dun daaaa.......

Can't WAIT for this nightmare!!!! LOL!!!

Is liquid wax a 'CURE' for tacky spots that don't harden even WITH the Wax-Additive that's IN the Gelcoat the 'TRICK' for tacky spots....???????


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2018)

If you have tacky spots then the gel didn’t have wax or the wax wasn’t mixed in good enough. Wax additive/surfacing agent, duratech high gloss additive are for outside the mold work and repairs.


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

Boatbrains said:


> If you have tacky spots then the gel didn’t have wax or the wax wasn’t mixed in good enough. Wax additive/surfacing agent, duratech high gloss additive are for outside the mold work and repairs.


Meaning rub some of one of these products over the tacky spots and they will cure....???..... then remove them with Acetone....???

I've never done this........ I've read about Nightmares!!! LOL!!!


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

I know it's supposed to be MIXED-IN....... what happens if you get separation and the tacky spots......???

I read.... liquid wax...... YES..... NO....???


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2018)

If you have tacky gel, it will stay tacky always. You can try to wipe with acetone and a rag and the tack might just be surface but I doubt it. Unfortunately you will most likely be dealing with one of those nightmares you mentioned and have to scrub all the tacky spots off with acetone rag, sand, respray! If this is the case, get some duratech high gloss additive and skip the sainding aid/wax additive! You don’t need to mix the duratec 1/1, I typically go 75/25 gel/duratec.


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

I already purchased two gallons of Gelcoat from Fiberglass Supply Depot in Fla. .......... one WITH wax already in it.... the other without..... I decided against trying the No-wax first coat and then the wax-in 2nd coat for just having two gallons WITH wax..... so I ordered the 4 oz. wax additive to mix INTO the gallon with no wax........ I have to mix the Hardener in according to ambient temperature....... are these products from F.S.D. ok for me to use....???


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2018)

Yes, the wax additive is safe to use. Also, if you spray 2-3 coats consecutivly you won’t have to sand between coats. Sprat a coat, let tack, spray a coat, let tack, ect... the wax will just lift through the next coat and you’ll be good. If you wait a day between coats, you must sand between coats.


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

Sadly I'm rollin' and brushin'.... not sure my Nail Gun Compressor would push a spray gun....???


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

Ck w fiberglass shower/tub repair guys as well , much cheaper usually


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

You’re using epoxy - gel coat is polyester 

Epoxy will produce an amine blush - this needs to be removed with soap and water,before sanding / grinding.

Gel coat really shouldn’t be used over top an epoxy - you can do it, but you need a separation coat- dura Tec surfacer works well for that.


Amine blush - if you didn’t remove all that amine blush, your gel coat won’t set up - this could be the reason you have tacky spots


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> If you have tacky gel, it will stay tacky always. You can try to wipe with acetone and a rag and the tack might just be surface but I doubt it. Unfortunately you will most likely be dealing with one of those nightmares you mentioned and have to scrub all the tacky spots off with acetone rag, sand, respray! If this is the case, get some duratech high gloss additive and skip the sainding aid/wax additive! You don’t need to mix the duratec 1/1, I typically go 75/25 gel/duratec.



Duratec gloss enhancer mixes @ 1:1 do not alter the ratio


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

WURK2FISH said:


> Sadly I'm rollin' and brushin'.... not sure my Nail Gun Compressor would push a spray gun....???


That’s gonna be tough to get a nice finish - rolling and brushing gel coat


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

WURK2FISH said:


> I've had my battles learning how to lay up glass for sure!!! Thanks for the tips!!!
> 
> My NEXT 'Hurdle'........ is GELCOAT!!! Duhnnnn da dun daaaa.......
> 
> ...



Gel coat will not fully kick,if it’s exposed to the atmosphere - to make it fully kick:

You need either a wax additive mixed in or you need to spray the gel coat with PVA after it’s applied


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

This is a giant mess ....


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

WURK2FISH said:


> I've had my battles learning how to lay up glass for sure!!! Thanks for the tips!!!
> 
> My NEXT 'Hurdle'........ is GELCOAT!!! Duhnnnn da dun daaaa.......
> 
> ...



No cure for tacky spots - read everything I typed !


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> If you have tacky gel, it will stay tacky always. You can try to wipe with acetone and a rag and the tack might just be surface but I doubt it. Unfortunately you will most likely be dealing with one of those nightmares you mentioned and have to scrub all the tacky spots off with acetone rag, sand, respray! If this is the case, get some duratech high gloss additive and skip the sainding aid/wax additive! You don’t need to mix the duratec 1/1, I typically go 75/25 gel/duratec.


Duratec gloss enhancer - that’s the name of the product

Duratec gloss enhancer, it mixes @ 1:1 - do not alter the ratio


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

WURK2FISH said:


> Will keep this in my back pocket for future endeavors!!! Thanks!!!
> 
> I'm sealing alllll the wood best I know how...... not drilling any holes into the floor whatsoever...... and will DEF keep in mind not making any ways for water to enter the wood whatsoever!!!


You’ve a “console” with some sort of “structure” on top of it - I see that in the pictures,tell me, if you’re not drilling holes anywhere, how are you mounting this piece ?


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

I’ve been reading this as I go - the reason for a few replies from me



Boatbrains said:


> Yes, the wax additive is safe to use. Also, if you spray 2-3 coats consecutivly you won’t have to sand between coats. Sprat a coat, let tack, spray a coat, let tack, ect... the wax will just lift through the next coat and you’ll be good. If you wait a day between coats, you must sand between coats.



Spraying a few coats of gel coat mixed with s wax or duratec gloss enhancer - that’s not the way to do it.

Spray a few coats, then the last coat is mixed with gloss enhancer or wax additive

Failing to do this can cause problems - the gel can kick off as you’re spraying - the gel you’ve already squirted on


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2018)

Wurk2fish, My brain was a little off last night! Do not put the gelcoat over epoxy!!! As much as I hate to admit it... Predacious is right about that! 
Predacious, as long as you apply you next coats before the gel fully cures... wax additive in all coats is fine, the solvents in the next coats will pull the wax right through. I am pretty quik about getting my coats down! Duratec can says 1/1 yes, I have only been using it for about 20yrs though and can tell you that it works great as far down as 75/25! Also, I would not reccomend someone with little to no experience attempt to apply pva on they’re gelcoat... this takes practice and timing to get right!


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2018)

And the name of the product is clear high gloss additive, since we’re being petty! I buy it by the case!


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

OK.... lot going on here.....

First..... the Center Console is going to be fiberglassed to the deck....... I'm drilling no holes in my floor whatsoever......

I haven't STARTED Gelcoating yet....... I'm still fiberglassing.......

YES..... sadly I entered this 'Project' with not enough 'Know-How' in what to use and how to properly APPLY the different Products I've purchased...... too late to turn back now...... I'm too far in!!!

From what I'm gathering here from predacious....... IFFFFFF I FIRST put down the following product......

https://www.fibreglast.com/product/duratec-gray-surfacing-primer/Learning_Center

1) THENNNNN the Polyester Gelcoat will adhere without problems......???

2) Is that 'Primer' I just linked also considered a 'Finish Coat'...... it seems to lean towards it being so in that it says it can buff out to a shiny finish.......???

NOTE: This Boat is RUFFFFFF Finish from the jump...... and I'm not trying to take it to Hell's Bay 'Finish' Standards........ I don't care if it's dull........ doesn't quite smooth out or come to a perfect shine..... as long as it adheres and waterproofs.......

3) Can I achieve THAT 'Standard' with putting on the 'Linked' Primer OVER all my Epoxy-Work....???

I DOOOO appreciate ALLLLL the comments.... even if a bit 'abrasive'!!!

I'm in this...... and obviously need help getting to it's END!!!


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

predacious said:


> This is a giant mess ....


LOL!!!..... YES..... I've made a mess!!!.....now help me get through it!!!....???


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

**Duratec Polyester Base Primer (707-051 Tan)

**Duratec Polyester Surfacing Primer (702-003 Black, 707-002 Gray, 714-002 White)

**Duratec Polyester EZ Sanding Primer (702-060 Black, 707-060 Gray, 714-060 White)


Which one to 'surface' over all my Epoxy-Work so as to apply Gelcoat.....???


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

WURK2FISH said:


> OK.... lot going on here.....
> 
> First..... the Center Console is going to be fiberglassed to the deck....... I'm drilling no holes in my floor whatsoever......
> 
> ...


Abrasive ??

My god,you must have a very fragile ego ...

I apologize for pointing out the obvious problems and the bad information you were given by others...


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## WURK2FISH (Aug 8, 2017)

predacious said:


> Abrasive ??
> 
> My god,you must have a very fragile ego ...
> 
> I apologize for pointing out the obvious problems and the bad information you were given by others...


Not at all........ I just sensed a bit of a 'PISSIN' CONTEST'........

ALLLLLL in good sport I'm assuming!!! 

I appreciate all your help predacious!!!........ even IF it's all a "giant mess"!!!

We all gotta' START somewhere!!!..... and all you're givin me...... like I said.... IS appreciated!!!


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