# Carbon fiber vs basalt pricing



## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

*Nick Gencarelle*
·
*Registered*
Joined 11 mo ago 
· 
33 Posts 
#44 • 1 h ago (Edited)


> JC Designs said:
> Help yourself out here, can you post up a full roll pricing for 11oz 370ish gsm 2x2 twill basalt. Also the fiber count per tow please? Also, 50” width or whatever your common width is I believe I’ve mostly seen it in 38” wide but know you can get wider too.


Full roll of our 350 gram plain weave 39.4 inch wide 13 micron 50 meters long (164 feet) is $10.50 a square yard plus shipping. We do not normally put one size fits all prices because multiple rolls bring great discounts and shipping costs are different-we ship from Houston. 12.7 x 12.7 yarns per inch We have 50 inch wide in bi-axials or satins. Most of our fabrics are 39.4 inch wide one meter. 50 meters long.

Reactions:You and HenryTinSkiff

So here is what I was quoted for 2x2 twill at 11oz/370ish gsm basalt cloth.
Notice, this quote is for plain weave 350gsm cloth... not what I asked for. Also notice that it is 39.4” wide.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Here you will notice the weight of this 38” wide plain weave carbon fiber is about half what the basalt weight is. Intermediate modulus carbon fiber is around 3x stiffer than basalt in an equal weight material thus requiring less of it. So if the numbers don’t lie “I’ll post a chart as well” and we doubled up this plain weave CF to equal the weight of the basalt then we would be 6x’s stiffer correct me if I am wrong please. Or from a different perspective, of we tripled the layers of basalt fiber to equal the stiffness of cf then the amount of basalt needed to achieve this same stiffness would be 3x’s greater totaling $31.50 per sq yd of laminate? Vs $32 per sq yd of carbon fiber laminate? Wait, what about all the extra resin needed to wet out the extra basalt? Now we add extra cost and weight correct? Ok, that was fun but there is more. Next, let’s look at the 2x2 twill I asked about but in carbon fiber... Oh, and notice that if you purchase 50yds or more what the price goes down to. Not much more than the full roll pricing of basalt fabric and you’ll use less of it and your expensive resin!


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Now here we see the correct weight and weave fiber I asked for. Wow, looks pricey right? Well, it is 50”wide so almost a third more material first off. Next, it will take at least twice the basalt fabric to equal the stiffness and elongation of the carbon fiber so now our prices are a bit closer. Now add in the extra resin and it’s cost. Now we have extra weight as well folks!


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

So yeah, it’s apples and oranges and at face value the cf is a tad more expensive. Ps, I was quoted $14.50 for the same plain weave cloth just quoted at $10.50 and I have spoken to several members that were all different. The market can’t be that scattered! Fiberglass and carbon fiber are both textiles as well and their pricing seems pretty consistent! Now those of you that know me, know I am pretty danged transparent and believe in truth and honesty! I am not here pimping product, “well, maybe X-Caliber” and get nothing for the advise or time I spend with you folks on the site, through emails, texts, or phone. I like the basalt fiber but it isn’t the miracle it is portrayed to be! Chris did the same thing with Kevlar in the 90’s and then bad mouths it today? He is a salesman, and a good one. He is also a great dude, designer and builder so I give credit where due! The carbon fiber prices I shared here are the same prices listed on Composites envisions website. These are over the counter prices and no bs. Anyone gets these prices! As far as me and basalt goes... I might have to order a couple containers and pass the savings on to ya’ll in the near future! For my next trick, I will dig up some magical videos and debunk some myths. I’ll share them here since it’s my thread!


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Nick is the guy who INTRODUCED basalt to the Microskiff group. He is the one who gave Chris the basalt for no markup, in the interest of having a known designer build the first skiff made from basalt. If he makes 50 bucks being a distributor and you feel he does not deserve to make any money by working his ass off and taking care of customers, angering the phone or emails promptly, getting them what they need when they need it, on time and helping with resins etc. then fine that's your prerogative. But as the guy who brought this to you all I deserve some credit and camaraderie in my opinion.

@Nick Gencarelle, are you not a salesman/distributer of basalt products? I mean, isn’t it sorta your job to “work your ass off angering the phone or emails promptly, and getting them what they need when they need it” and all that other jazz you wrote? I mean, my employer expects me to earn my salt and when I am running my home business I push myself the same or harder! It’s not as if you are doing us a favor because you are doing your damn job dude! I’m thankful you are a working and productive member of society, but you are not entitled to an easy route because a well known builder showcased your product for you! Get some consistency, show some honesty, get some price sheets together for your website and maybe I’ll help move some of your product. But I need more to go on than what you share my friend. For a builder, stability is important! For a small builder, stability is critical!


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Also, I give credit where due and @DuckNut is the guy that introduced me to basalt fiber and I started researching about a year and a half before Chris Morejohn brought it up on the forum which also happened to be before this guy so not sure I would give him hero status there either.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Remember folks, and you engineers out there will get this best... 

A lamination schedule is much more than it’s individual components. It is more than the sum of it’s components. It is the sum of it’s components and how and where they are used in the laminate. An intermediate modulus cf might not be the correct fiber for on location on a boat but is right for another. A lower/standard modulus cf is not going to be right for an application where a high modulus fiber is needed. There truly is no 1 size fits all when trying to build the lightest, strongest boat you can whether as a home builder or a custom production builder. I’ve been around a long time and am happy to share my knowledge as many of you know and have never expected a thing in return! If in the future, I can sell someone a skiff then great... if not, that’s not why I am here anyway! I’m just here to hang with mostly like minded hard working folks like myself.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

JC Designs said:


> Also, I give credit where due and @DuckNut is the guy that introduced me to basalt fiber and I started researching about a year and a half before Chris Morejohn brought it up on the forum which also happened to be before this guy so not sure I would give him hero status there either.


The first time I used it was 2002. Back then there was a one size fits all your needs. Now it is being manufactured is specialized cloth. In 2008 I built a canoe with only one layer. 18 foot canoe weighed right at 29lbs. Now they make them from carbon and vacuum bagging. 

When BoatBrains and I were talking about his design for the Xcaliber I mentioned it to him and that point in time was when he only had a rough drawing on a yellow sheet of paper. Several months later he had his final design. 

But I have to give credit where credit is due. I learned of the product from the Gougeon's.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

DuckNut said:


> The first time I used it was 2002. Back then there was a one size fits all your needs. Now it is being manufactured is specialized cloth. In 2008 I built a canoe with only one layer. 18 foot canoe weighed right at 29lbs. Now they make them from carbon and vacuum bagging.
> 
> When BoatBrains and I were talking about his design for the Xcaliber I mentioned it to him and that point in time was when he only had a rough drawing on a yellow sheet of paper. Several months later he had his final design.
> 
> But I have to give credit where credit is due. I learned of the product from the Gougeon's.


Good stuff.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

I want to point out that the first CF I showed is more than sufficient in a single layer using epoxy resin for an inner hull skin on most skiffs using 3/4” 4 or 5lb foam for core. This is “assuming” bulkheads, rod holders, cap, transom well are all “glassed” in place and not simply bonded. On my next build, I am going to be showing ya’ll some pretty cool and in depth tricks! I will be sharing fiber properties and where to use what and how to use it. There are ways to build super light yet super strong and durable skiffs. It’s all in the engineering folks! I still might use a little basalt for a rash guard in my outer skin schedule, if not maybe something else like spectra... 🤔


Not using spectra, resin doesn’t bond well to it. 😎


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## VANMflyfishing (Nov 11, 2019)

JC Designs said:


> Remember folks, and you engineers out there will get this best...
> 
> A lamination schedule is much more than it’s individual components. It is more than the sum of it’s components. It is the sum of it’s components and how and where they are used in the laminate. An intermediate modulus cf might not be the correct fiber for on location on a boat but is right for another. A lower/standard modulus cf is not going to be right for an application where a high modulus fiber is needed. There truly is no 1 size fits all when trying to build the lightest, strongest boat you can whether as a home builder or a custom production builder. I’ve been around a long time and am happy to share my knowledge as many of you know and have never expected a thing in return! If in the future, I can sell someone a skiff then great... if not, that’s not why I am here anyway! I’m just here to hang with mostly like minded hard working folks like myself.


This is one of the main reasons I did not use CF. Matching up difference weaves for location isn't as simple as layering up Basalt or glass. At least not for me. I'd be interested to learning more about this. Maybe document in a later post? I might build a boat similar to a Towee after this one. A small river boat for smallmouth and musky.

I also like "green" alternatives when I can use them. There is a ton of waste and energy put into producing carbon fiber. I am using reclaimed lumber where I can and are buying things off marketplaces versus new...saves some money too.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

JC, for your reading enjoyment. Look at the dates

Sound deadening in lay up?

1974 SureCast 16'r rebuild:
4th paragraph


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

DuckNut said:


> JC, for your reading enjoyment. Look at the dates
> 
> Sound deadening in lay up?
> 
> ...


Yes, I still remember the day you called me and turned me on to the stuff. It struck my interest pretty hard and I’ve done a significant amount of research since. I have a few yds of the material but haven’t had time to make my test panels as of yet.Probably the 2 best features are the ones you and I discussed which first is the sound deadening and 2nd it’s abrasion resistance. I feel it will compliment a carbon fiber build very well with both of these properties! I also feel that with the US distributers “sudanglass is not out of the running” that I may just have to import a container or two for my endeavors when the time comes. You know me, I don’t have time or tolerance for BS and incompetence. Thanks again buddy for turning me on to the basalt fiber and I am looking forward to doing some non destructive and destructive testing of my own and since I am not pimping product, the tests will be fair and honest!


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Anyone thinking or needing fabrics shouldn’t hesitate to give the folks at #Compositesenvisions a call. I am not affiliated with them in any way and if you would “even though they won’t know me from Adam” please tell them I sent ya! I have spoken to a couple of their reps and had a few emails back and fourth, they are competent and friendly. They are also transparent with their pricing and what you get. They have a “scrap materials and 2nd quality bin” where those of you wanting to play with the exotic fabrics to get the feel for them can save some $! Most of these are just ends of rolls, or a piece where single weft has pulled!


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## Nick Gencarelle (Aug 19, 2019)

JC Designs said:


> View attachment 152330
> Here you will notice the weight of this 38” wide plain weave carbon fiber is about half what the basalt weight is. Intermediate modulus carbon fiber is around 3x stiffer than basalt in an equal weight material thus requiring less of it. So if the numbers don’t lie “I’ll post a chart as well” and we doubled up this plain weave CF to equal the weight of the basalt then we would be 6x’s stiffer correct me if I am wrong please. Or from a different perspective, of we tripled the layers of basalt fiber to equal the stiffness of cf then the amount of basalt needed to achieve this same stiffness would be 3x’s greater totaling $31.50 per sq yd of laminate? Vs $32 per sq yd of carbon fiber laminate? Wait, what about all the extra resin needed to wet out the extra basalt? Now we add extra cost and weight correct? Ok, that was fun but there is more. Next, let’s look at the 2x2 twill I asked about but in carbon fiber... Oh, and notice that if you purchase 50yds or more what the price goes down to. Not much more than the full roll pricing of basalt fabric and you’ll use less of it and your expensive resin!


We don’t have the twill in the 50 inch width you asked for but in 39.4 inch. AND looking at this quote you have to START by getting 4-5 whole rolls at nearly 6 bucks more per yard. Our prices come down much more in multiple rolls. Like 40%. Stiffness does not stop carbon from shattering when impacted on angle and the repair costs are that much more. Lighter yes. Nicer to work with no. Electrically Conductive yes.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

JC Designs said:


> Anyone thinking or needing fabrics shouldn’t hesitate to give the folks at #Compositesenvisions a call. I am not affiliated with them in any way and if you would “even though they won’t know me from Adam” please tell them I sent ya! I have spoken to a couple of their reps and had a few emails back and fourth, they are competent and friendly.


I've bought stuff from them over the years and have had a great experience every time. The Carbon kevlar in my recent build was purchased from them years ago. I also recently picked up a bunch of peel ply from them that worked out awesome and was close to that dress making stuff in price but came right off.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Nick Gencarelle said:


> We don’t have the twill in the 50 inch width you asked for but in 39.4 inch. AND looking at this quote you have to START by getting 4-5 whole rolls at nearly 6 bucks more per yard. Our prices come down much more in multiple rolls. Like 40%. Stiffness does not stop carbon from shattering when impacted on angle and the repair costs are that much more. Lighter yes. Nicer to work with no. Electrically Conductive yes.


You are mis reading the quote, and I asked for the twill in whatever width you stocked. How about this...

I’ll keep repairing, designing, and building and you stick to selling. But to get your panties twisted in a knot and come on here speaking of yourself in the 3rd person expecting us to bow down to your great self for selling your product to us is just... DAMN!


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

Nick Gencarelle said:


> We don’t have the twill in the 50 inch width you asked for but in 39.4 inch. AND looking at this quote you have to START by getting 4-5 whole rolls at nearly 6 bucks more per yard. Our prices come down much more in multiple rolls. Like 40%. Stiffness does not stop carbon from shattering when impacted on angle and the repair costs are that much more. Lighter yes. Nicer to work with no. Electrically Conductive yes.


I'd like to do a build in basalt at some point. What I think I needed was a price sheet online so I could quickly understand what the costs were. I was all set to do it on this last one, but, ended up just doing eglass/CF because I could do the math really quickly and just get it. I had a lot of other pieces to worry about other than having multiple calls, quotes, etc.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

carbon fiber Electrically Conductive yes. hmm, makes me think of the Chittum thread..


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## VANMflyfishing (Nov 11, 2019)

I'd say build with what you like to build with. Some products are superior than others for certain applications. I would like to see Nick post a pricing sheet online...especially if he plans to be THE source for boat building. I'm not going to go into detail about my experience, but posting a price sheet would have prevented this conversation in the first place.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

VANMflyfishing said:


> I'd say build with what you like to build with. Some products are superior than others for certain applications. I would like to see Nick post a pricing sheet online...especially if he plans to be THE source for boat building. I'm not going to go into detail about my experience, but posting a price sheet would have prevented this conversation in the first place.


It certainly would have! Not difficult yo figure a price list based on per yd purchases just like composites envisions and others. I don’t know of any home builders that are purchasing multiple rolls of the same material to build a small skiff with. Most need a few yds of this and a few yds of that, and maybe a full roll of the other.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

devrep said:


> carbon fiber Electrically Conductive yes. hmm, makes me think of the Chittum thread..


Yes, because we all need to be told that carbon is conductive... again! 🤣


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

K3anderson said:


> I'd like to do a build in basalt at some point. What I think I needed was a price sheet online so I could quickly understand what the costs were. I was all set to do it on this last one, but, ended up just doing eglass/CF because I could do the math really quickly and just get it. I had a lot of other pieces to worry about other than having multiple calls, quotes, etc.


East Cape uses EGlass.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Rollbar said:


> East Cape uses EGlass.


As have a whole whole lotta other companies for nearly a century! 🤘 Too many get hung up in the materials yet know little about them. Not saying you, I realize you were just pointing out one company. When you look at the properties of E glass and polyester resin ask yourself when you will ever take it to those limits. Take a look at @Backcountry 16 ’s CF build and how well it stood up to a 100mph rear ending on I95! I think under normal abuse, it’ll hold up just fine.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

JC Designs said:


> As have a whole whole lotta other companies for nearly a century! 🤘 Too many get hung up in the materials yet know little about them. Not saying you, I realize you were just pointing out one company. When you look at the properties of E glass and polyester resin ask yourself when you will ever take it to those limits. Take a look at @Backcountry 16 ’s CF build and how well it stood up to a 100mph rear ending on I95! I think under normal abuse, it’ll hold up just fine.


Well I don't know much of anything about fiberglass.
You use it to build boats with is my extent.
I was told by Kevin when I called about one of his skiffs that this is what they used and he made it sound like it was something special and I won't go into other things he discussed.
I did ask about a Kevlar hull (I think it was Kevlar) since I kept hearing so much about them and he said he could add it or something for $2400.00/$4200.00 (can't remember the price) but any way he said it would only gain a 1/4" less draft.
That is my extent of glass and that is why I'm reading everything I can on here to learn IN CASE I build since most MFG's are 18months + out.
Back to the drawing board.
Thanks,


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

JC Designs said:


> Take a look at @Backcountry 16 ’s CF build and how well it stood up to a 100mph rear ending on I95! I think under normal abuse, it’ll hold up just fine.


Maybe he will post a link to his thread.
Thanks,


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

JC Designs said:


> As have a whole whole lotta other companies for nearly a century! 🤘 Too many get hung up in the materials yet know little about them. Not saying you, I realize you were just pointing out one company. When you look at the properties of E glass and polyester resin ask yourself when you will ever take it to those limits. Take a look at @Backcountry 16 ’s CF build and how well it stood up to a 100mph rear ending on I95! I think under normal abuse, it’ll hold up just fine.





JC Designs said:


> As have a whole whole lotta other companies for nearly a century! 🤘 Too many get hung up in the materials yet know little about them. Not saying you, I realize you were just pointing out one company. When you look at the properties of E glass and polyester resin ask yourself when you will ever take it to those limits. Take a look at @Backcountry 16 ’s CF build and how well it stood up to a 100mph rear ending on I95! I think under normal abuse, it’ll hold up just fine.


Here you go JC still cry a little inside after 45 minutes of ownership to have it look like that.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Backcountry 16 said:


> View attachment 152469
> View attachment 152470
> Here you go JC still cry a little inside after 45 minutes of ownership to have it look like that.


It’s ok buddy, Travis and I will get ya back goin’ again between the two of us! 
Thank’s for the pics!


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

JC Designs said:


> It’s ok buddy, Travis and I will get ya back goin’ again between the two of us!
> Thank’s for the pics!


I know you 2 will and will always be grateful to everyone on here


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Nick Gencarelle said:


> We don’t have the twill in the 50 inch width you asked for but in 39.4 inch. AND looking at this quote you have to START by getting 4-5 whole rolls at nearly 6 bucks more per yard. Our prices come down much more in multiple rolls. Like 40%. Stiffness does not stop carbon from shattering when impacted on angle and the repair costs are that much more. Lighter yes. Nicer to work with no. Electrically Conductive yes.


Nick,

What happened to honoring this price?


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

DuckNut said:


> Nick,
> 
> What happened to honoring this price?
> 
> View attachment 152474


Don’t sweat it buddy. I have a good friend that’s fluent in Chinese & we might just go straight to the source and become a distributer!


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Say no to Chineeze


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Say no to Chineeze


It all comes from there, we’re kinda stuck with it for now unfortunately. But I do agree!


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

JC Designs said:


> Don’t sweat it buddy. I have a good friend that’s fluent in Chinese & we might just go straight to the source and become a distributer!


Not sweating anything.

You made a claim the prices were random and they certainly seem to be. I tried to get a price from him as well and the circle jerk which ensued was rediculous so I gave up.

I remembered he would offer discounts to MS members and honor the above prices.

Now it seems he has placed a 50% premium to MS members and before the price comes down to only a 25% premium you have to order more material then you would need for 3 builds.

What this thread has shown me is that Smarter Building Systems is not a good place to do business with and Nick, the salesman, may not be looking out for the best interest of the builder.

Many years ago I learned something about companies that has stood the test of time. If you are referred to as a customer you are looked at as someone the company wants to make money off of you from that one time purchase. If you are a client the company wants a long term mutually beneficial relationship. The difference between customer and client is huge and salesmen who don't know the difference are always looking for new customers. The salesmen are the face of the company and the way they treat you says a lot about the culture of the company.

So I will sit back and see what Nick has to say about the conflicting variable information he has provided to you and me based on an actual invoice. Somewhere out there lies the truth.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

DuckNut said:


> Not sweating anything.
> 
> You made a claim the prices were random and they certainly seem to be. I tried to get a price from him as well and the circle jerk which ensued was rediculous so I gave up.
> 
> ...


I will be right here with ya, and agree 100%!


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

What a way to take a really good opportunity and squander it.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

K3anderson said:


> What a way to take a really good opportunity and squander it.


 I was really looking forward to using the material in my next build and probably will, I will be using another supplier if I do though.


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

I know this is a Basalt / Carbon Fiber discussion. The first I saw talk of basalt here , I _believe_ it was in the context of being used as a single and final outside 
layer to add some abrasion / puncture resistance. I could be wrong, but that is what I remember. Based on that and willing to try something "new", I ordered 50 meters. I paid the equivalent of $11.42 per square yard with taxes and shipping. Subsequent 10 oz e glass cloth (125) yards that I bought, ran me $5.02 per square yard without shipping. Morejohn has consistently recommended 3 layers of 10 oz cloth on the outside of the Conchfish hull. My thinking was if two layers of 10 oz cloth followed by a layer of basalt was good, then doing all three layers out of basalt would be that much better. This is also what Morejohn did on the Beryllium build chronicled here except he used 350 gram basalt vs my 300 gram (8.9 oz) . So in the end, using all basalt on the outside of my hull cost me an additional $428 over three striaght layers of 10 oz cloth. If I would have done two layers of 10 oz cloth and one layer of basalt , it would have cost me an additional $127. Either one of these is minimal (somewhere less than 3%) considering what this skiff will cost this one-timer overall. Hope this gives another way of trying to decide. 

Cheers


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## jonny (May 1, 2007)

DuckNut said:


> JC, for your reading enjoyment. Look at the dates
> 
> Sound deadening in lay up?
> 
> ...


Ha
I am the one (Swampfox) who started that thread. And did my research back then for my project. Thanks Ducknut for telling me about basalt way back then. Everyone was keeping it hush hush. As the new super fiber. That was gonna be a game changer for the shallow water skiffs. All these years later. I don’t personally know of a single production skiff built with it. Definitely didn’t live up to the hype.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

I believe there is an Australian company using it.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

jonny said:


> Ha
> I am the one (Swampfox) who started that thread. And did my research back then for my project. Thanks Ducknut for telling me about basalt way back then. Everyone was keeping it hush hush. As the new super fiber. That was gonna be a game changer for the shallow water skiffs. All these years later. I don’t personally know of a single production skiff built with it. Definitely didn’t live up to the hype.


I believe there will be boats made from it when it becomes more readily available. One major obstacle to this is the random pricing as demonstrated above.

One other reason is the old adage if it's not broken...

Look how many years it took to get wood out of boats. But wood in itself is not a problem but the how fast can we churn these boats out is a problem which led to the industry giving wood a bad rap when it was the industry that deserved the bad rap. Ever since the price of skiffs has basically doubled.

Now that someone of Chris' stature used it, it will gain a bit of traction. No matter how loud you, me, JC, etc yelled nobody would hear us. It took Chris and a few others and the ball will roll.

However, it will roll into a mud pit if the pricing is scattered and more than carbon.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

DuckNut said:


> I believe there will be boats made from it when it becomes more readily available. One major obstacle to this is the random pricing as demonstrated above.
> 
> One other reason is the old adage if it's not broken...
> 
> ...


Agree, my only issue is the pricing oddity. Love the material’s properties!


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## VANMflyfishing (Nov 11, 2019)

Yeah there is an Australian company Nautek - 




It's funny that Nick has quit responding...


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## WC53 (Dec 2, 2015)

Certainly a lot of basalt innegra being used in Expedition canoes, but I don’t know how that translates with a lot of power


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## jonny (May 1, 2007)

Wow that shot from a 45-70 was impressive.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

VANMflyfishing said:


> It's funny that Nick has quit responding...


Customer or client?

It is speaking volumes.


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## VANMflyfishing (Nov 11, 2019)

DuckNut said:


> Customer or client?
> 
> It is speaking volumes.


I was going to use them. They quoted me a number higher than Chris's and told me it was due to Chris ordering large quantities and tariffs from China. Then they sent me an invoice for an older weave prior to me paying. So, I found someone else to buy what I was looking for. I didn't like the dishonesty on pricing, not to mention him quoting >$2/m to this group a few days later. That's a >$200 savings. If they stick with a price, they would get more customers.


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## Jstov (Aug 5, 2020)

VANMflyfishing said:


> I was going to use them. They quoted me a number higher than Chris's and told me it was due to Chris ordering large quantities and tariffs from China. Then they sent me an invoice for an older weave prior to me paying. So, I found someone else to buy what I was looking for. I didn't like the dishonesty on pricing, not to mention him quoting >$2/m to this group a few days later. That's a >$200 savings. If they stick with a price, they would get more customers.


Do you mind telling me where you got it from?


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Sudaglass!!! Talk to James, he a great dude!
(281) 496-5427


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## Nick Gencarelle (Aug 19, 2019)

JC Designs said:


> Sudaglass!!! Talk to James, he a great dude!
> (281) 496-5427


Chris Morejohn was given an extraordinary price just to get a well known designer to use the basalt and be the first to successfully make a full build. He was add asked expressly NOT to spread that price as it was not the going price. Volumes bring great discounts and shipping has to be figured for an accurate quote. New tariff added 25% boy that sure helped. Sudaglass is our partner. Basalt is in any decent volume much less than carbon. Over 20% higher stiffness than glass while carbon is too stiff many times.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Nick Gencarelle said:


> Chris Morejohn was given an extraordinary price just to get a well known designer to use the basalt and be the first to successfully make a full build. He was add asked expressly NOT to spread that price as it was not the going price. Volumes bring great discounts and shipping has to be figured for an accurate quote. New tariff added 25% boy that sure helped. Sudaglass is our partner. Basalt is in any decent volume much less than carbon. Over 20% higher stiffness than glass while carbon is too stiff many times.


Well, your partner is much more pleasant and up front than you sir! And to be clear, I or anyone here can buy IM 2x2 twill in 5.9 oz cf 50” widths starting around $15 linear yd in any quantity beginning with one yd! Price decreases with volume. That said, I do like the properties basalt has to offer “especially for a hull skin”.


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## Nick Gencarelle (Aug 19, 2019)

JC Designs said:


> Well, your partner is much more pleasant and up front than you sir! And to be clear, I or anyone here can buy IM 2x2 twill in 5.9 oz cf 50” widths starting around $15 linear yd in any quantity beginning with one yd! Price decreases with volume. That said, I do like the properties basalt has to offer “especially for a hull skin”.


Sorry if I came across as unpleasant in any way. I do my best to attend clients, answer the phone or emails that day and follow up. We will be building a US plant to make basalt and when that happens the price will be far less and we think a game changer.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Nick Gencarelle said:


> Sorry if I came across as unpleasant in any way. I do my best to attend clients, answer the phone or emails that day and follow up. We will be building a US plant to make basalt and when that happens the price will be far less and we think a game changer.


No worries here Nick. It’s not about the price with me so much as the pricing. When I contacted your partner, he had a pretty well detailed list of what weaves and weights that were here in the states with basic “low volume” pricing. That will go a long way for these hobby builders to help with budgeting a build! A notation of “prices subject to change, please call for latest price or bulk quote” would cover you. I as a builder and designer, like to know what weaves are available as I like to play with laminates and test the product to come up with the best of the best! Maybe we can do business in the future.


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## VANMflyfishing (Nov 11, 2019)

Jstov said:


> Do you mind telling me where you got it from?


I got it from Sudaglass - James. I believe it’s is he and his wife that run the company. Great customer service and he took a lot of interest in what we are doing as builders. I also shipped to a commercial address but residential shipping isn’t that much. Full transparency with my build feel free to send me a PM if you want my buying experience.


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