# Layout Dreaming/Designing



## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I was going to start on a new build this past December, but unfortunately I ended up having shoulder surgery. So the build will be delayed maybe up to a year. While I sit here recovering I have had a decent amount to dream and ponder about what layout and options I will want. I’ll be building an FS17 and power it with a 50-60hp motor. I’m starting this thread to show and discuss some of the layouts I’ll be considering. It’s a smaller boat so some things may not be realistic.

I started the process by sketching out my current skiff, The Plytanic, and the FS17 overviews in Photshop. The overviews are semi accurate as I drew them out using actual measurements.


Here is my current skiff:

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Here is an overview of the 2 boats, my skiff in black, and the FS17 in grey. As you can see the FS17 is a bit larger in most respects which gives me some liberties in the layout:

[url=https://flic.kr/p/PLLiB8]Boat Comparison a by https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


This is the first layout I came up with, I haven’t decided on how I’ll be doing the gunnels yet. The grey outline is the edge of the sole:

FS17 Sample1a by https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


I’ll be adding more layouts as I get time until I find one I like. There are some obvious design constraints I’ll be working in, but none that seem to limiting. I’m very open to suggestions and discussion as this is all in fun and interest. Cheers.[/URL]


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

Good luck w/ recovery.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Thanks bud, I'll be ok, but it will put my build right in the middle of the hot, well hotter season. So I might wait until November to start, if I can stand to wait at all, lol.


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## kensfl (Oct 22, 2010)

I'd enjoy seeing someone like yourself build off a set of Chris Morejohn plans.


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## LWalker (Aug 20, 2013)

Oh yeah....build a lithium! I talked to Chris about it. You can build it wood or foam strip.

https://hogfishdesign.wordpress.com/2016/09/30/lithium-some-details/


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

While I appreciate CM's plans, they aren't my style. I've don't strip building, and might again in the future, but I prefer stitch and glue designs. Also im not building a hardcore flats machine, this boat will be a jack of all trades. She will float in 6-7 inches (proven when loaded), run through a decent chop, handle a heavy load, and even run a little offshore on better days. The FS17 is tried and true design, proven to be very seaworthy, and I intend to test that theory as I've gotten a bit bored of sticking to just the shallows.


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## Battfisher (Jan 18, 2016)

What happens to the Plytanic when the new one comes along? The skiff itself is way cool, but the name alone is worth several thousand.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Lol thanks. I love the name too, so the new one might be The Plytanic II. 

As far as the fate of the current one, well the sun will set on her well used life. I'll be reusing some items, selling others to pay for some new toys (i-pilot, PP micro, jackplate...), and then take a sawzall to the rest. Just like I tell my kids, I brought you into this world, and I can take you out! Lol.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Still playing. Lots of things to consider. One thing I want is a touch of individuality. An option or 2 not usually seem in such a small boat, but they still need to be practical and feasible.

Here's another option, I love leaning post/Live well combos, just not sure it will work out just yet.
FS17 Sample2 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## LWalker (Aug 20, 2013)

Has anyone ever done a closed transom with a small bracket on one of these? That would open up lots of cool possibilities.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I wish I could fit that. Honestly I'd be building a 20fter if I had the room. I still gotta get her in the old garage, and even at 17ft it will take a removable tongue.
I love the idea of a closed transom with a nice swim platform, I just can't do it practically yet, even a 4" jack plate will be stretching it.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Still going, it's harder then most think to find a good balance in what you want.
FS17 Sample3 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Do you think that you will need and/or want 2 live wells? Or is one intended as a release well? I suppose you could always use one as a cooler


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I haven't planned for a second Live well, I'm not ruling it out yet, but I really haven't ever needed one except for when I fished the Firefighter Olympics 7+ years ago and even then we made due with one large well. 

I have found that storage is always at a premium on a small boat. Without cluttering the deck it's hard to find enough space for all the gear I use on different trips. I don't like the idea of in floor storage, I think it's a bit dangerous on a small boat, so it limits the options to extending the decks and adding hatches.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Just some minor tweaks and adjustments. I'm going to play a lot with different hatch sizes and naturally nothing is set in stone until it is installed. I'm realizing that even though a hatch might sound small on paper that might not match the reality. I measured the Attwood hatches I have on my current skiff and the opening is only 13"x9", not huge but they have always seemed big enough to be useful.
FS17 Sample4 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Eliminate as many through deck hatches and fittings as possible. Center load and storage in the middle of the hull. Easier to maintain trim and balance with that setup. Large console storage for fuel tanks heavy items will provide a more efficient use of space and access while allowing more efficient running angle at planing speed. Center of hull for storage and leave the perimeter open for people. Not my idea, Bob Dougherty used that concept on the Outrage Whalers of the mid 80's and proved to be extremely effective.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I've tried to work it out but I don't think center loading will work with the options I want. Remember I need to house 2 batteries, at least 15 gallons of fuel, a decent sized live well, and at least a 54qt cooler, but would prefer a 95qt. All the hatches will be guttered with drains, no more cheap plastic ones. The outrage has a much taller sole height so you can hide more under the console. I'm trying to keep things as balanced as possible, but you can only put so much crap in a given bag.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Look at your rear deck. Four hatches in an area better used as slide under stowage. Better off as all deck for strength and minimizing hull weight. No leaks, no weak corners, single panel strength. Console is too small as everyone sits on it and faces outwards when fishing or relaxing. Proper division of areas in it will allow batteries, fuel tank recessed into the deck, live well seating and multilevel storage.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm trying to eliminate slide storage, I won't use it again without a few larger hatched storage areas like I have on my skiff now. I have learned that dry and easily accessed storage is worth it's weight in gold to me. The reason for the 4 hatches is to maximize the use back there, I don't think you know but the motor well bulkhead can not be moved per design. However I can bridge it with a larger hatch without compromising any real strength. 

I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure it's realistic. I'm still playing, but I already know I can't fit the fuel tank like the outrage because of the stringer height.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

How's this? I eliminated 3 hatches. The 2 side hatches in the back will actually be divided by the motor well bulkhead when you open them. Aesthetically not the nicest option when the hatches are open, but it would give great simplified access, and how often are the hatches open anyway.
FS17 Sample6 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## windblows (May 21, 2014)

I like the last design the best. For my personal preference, I would move the console, leaning post/livewell and cooler all back by a few inches and then extend the front deck a little bit. Right now, it looks like it would be tight for two people. Look at the Egret 189 Moccasin. You are getting close to some of their layouts and they might inspire some options.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

You mean tight for 2 guys to fish off the front deck? I actually shrank the front deck down in the design because I found I didn't need as big a one as I have now. I do need more cockpit space, so I shaved 10 inches or so off the front and rear decks. I have a few more options I may try. I might add more cockpit space, and just toss in some bean bags when I need more seating.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Need to play the garage floor game again, FC. Arrange your gear on the floor and design around the piles, to fit the way you'll stow it.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

In your last drawing make the sole have a removable panel that houses the fuel tank under where the cooler is and sink the batteries into the space below the console. This would allow you to balance the weight of the tank before you seal it up. Unscrew it and you have access to the tank again. It would also give you some more space in the bow. Put your anchor locker back in your drawing.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I can't hide a tank under the sole, the sole height won't allow it. I know it looks like I'm building a full on center console, but remember this is still a fancy skiff. I can raise the sole height, but that will lead to stability issues and a reduced gunnel height (Not family friendly). The only options are the tank in the rear (not ideal), under the front deck, or in the console (2 batteries would need to be moved leading to other issues).

The major issue I'm really wrestling with is the cooler. I must have one, I use it every trip, sometimes I use 2, but there is no convenient place to put it. My current one is secured to the front deck, it works ok, but blocks my view and is a pain to get around when going for the anchor. I want a leaning post, but if I put it under it then it doesn't leave much room to pull it out. I need to do a lot more measuring and some mock ups once my shoulder heals. 

Here's the latest rendition. I added in the gunnels to give a better perspective. I reduced the hatches on the rear after doing some measuring I think I can work it out where I can reach well enough for access through the motor well.
FS17 Sample7a https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Have you thought about one of those cooler slides for under the leaning post? It will allow you easier access to pull the cooler out?









Boat Outfitters makes this one, but the price tag is $235+ (depending on size). I would imagine you could make one out of StarBoard yourself...


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

That is what I was considering, well making my own at least. Problem is you need a decent amount of room to actually pull it out easily. If I had 2ft or more it would be ok, but I might be looking at maybe 18". It might still work out, but I won't be able to tell until I can do some mock ups.


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## LWalker (Aug 20, 2013)

Don't slide that leaning post back too far. I have been on boats where it is too far back and it is pain to walk back from one side to the other because you almost have to turn sideways. My bayboat is comfortable(I wouldn't go any smaller) at 20". This measurement is at waist height from the back of the leaning post to a vertical line extended up from the rear bulkhead.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Exactly. I need it to be functional. This project is fitting 10lbs of crap in a 5lbs bag, so I have to sort it all out ahead of time.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

firecat1981 said:


> I was going to start on a new build this past December, but unfortunately I ended up having shoulder surgery. So the build will be delayed maybe up to a year. While I sit here recovering I have had a decent amount to dream and ponder about what layout and options I will want. I’ll be building an FS17 and power it with a 50-60hp motor. I’m starting this thread to show and discuss some of the layouts I’ll be considering. It’s a smaller boat so some things may not be realistic.
> 
> I started the process by sketching out my current skiff, The Plytanic, and the FS17 overviews in Photshop. The overviews are semi accurate as I drew them out using actual measurements.
> 
> ...


Great looking boat. What brand of rub rail did you use?


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Thanks, I used the one stocked by bateau.com, not sure of the brand but it's sold by the foot. Next build I think I'm gonna try a taco kit.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm getting closer to figuring something out here, lol. What I'm really worrying about now is weight balance. Looking at the study plans it only shows a simple console just rear of the midpoint, I'm sure it can be moved a little forward, but how much is to be determined. Then there is the cooler, fuel tank, trolling motor, anchors, storage..... I like a level hull, as anyone would, so with a heavy 4-stroke motor sitting on a jackplate I think I'll have a little leeway to move weight forward. Thoughts?

Here is my latest rendering. I figured I can have duel cooler mounts so I can take a bigger one on certain days (grey outline). Also instead of having hatches in the rear this plan has windows built into the motor well sides for access. It will be a stretch, but I don't need to access those areas very often and it will simplify the build. Also a leaning post/live well combo lets me take the fittings out of the console, making it smaller, and makes it cleaner for electronics access.
FS17 Sample8 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

After getting some info on where the center of gravity works out on this hull I changed a few things.
This time I shrunk down the rear deck. I actually moved the motor well bulkhead forward 6", and pushed the console, leaning post/live well, and cooler back about a foot. This should have me standing close to the CG. Along with a forward fuel tank, and a larger front deck, I think this should balance out well....maybe....
FS17 Sample9 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Well I hit a bit of a road block. After redrawing and measuring I realized the curve of the hull towards the bow won't really let me put the fuel tank up there like I wanted. At least without eliminating all useful storage or severely limiting the size of the tank. So now I need to find a way to relocate it and distribute the weight otherwise.

I figure I can put it under the console by raising the floor under the console (not a big deal), but doing this means the fill will need to exit the console instead of the gunnel or deck. I don't think that's a huge deal, but I'd then need to run the vent tube all the way up front, again I think that is doable from other boats I've seen. Thoughts?

I might also just put a portable tank in the console, but that leads to layout issues with the cooler again. I'm going to play with some other layouts, I may not get everything I want in her, but all boats are a compromise of sorts, right? lol.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Are you using a pre-fabbed tank, or having one built?


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I was going prefab, but might have to have one built. I don't have the stinger height to really put one under the sole, and the FS17's sharper entry eliminates areas upfront I did not accurately account for. I can account for some of it with an extended casting deck, but I wanted a bit more cockpit real estate this go around. I think I'll need to draw out stations, but the max sole height is only 6 7/8" from the keel. Not exactly ideal for a below deck tank.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

firecat1981 said:


> I was going prefab, but might have to have one built. I don't have the stinger height to really put one under the sole, and the FS17's sharper entry eliminates areas upfront I did not accurately account for. I can account for some of it with an extended casting deck, but I wanted a bit more cockpit real estate this go around. I think I'll need to draw out stations, but the max sole height is only 6 7/8" from the keel. Not exactly ideal for a below deck tank.


I was just thinking of you found a decent fabricator he/she could make you a long skinny tank that could run down the center of the keel between the stringers, like a offshore boat but with exaggerated dimensions, shifted toward the front to allow a sensible filler neck location.....15 gal is really not all that much volume, less than 2cf if I remember the conversion correctly. Just a thought, but could potentially drive your cost up a bit


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

The stinger height is only about 4.5" at the mid point and rapidly decreases from there, and the keel to sole height is under 7" total on the FS17. That doesn't take into account the fittings on top or rub strips on the bottom. It would end up being a small super shallow tank and might not function well. It's what I want, but that's a $400+ gamble just for the tank, and if it doesn't work right I'll have to tear the boat apart.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Hmm. That does make it tough. 

What if you changed the font storage to two hatches oriented front to back and had the fuel tank running front to back (starting right behind the anchor locker, running to the front deck bulkhead), narrow but the full height of the hull to cap dimension between the hatches. And adjust space between hatches to get desired volume.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

That's what I was thinking, but the hull narrows and angles in that area, I could fit the tank, but the storage on the sides would be fairly unusable.
Lol, it's enough to make you crazy. These are the things we don't think about much because many shallow water skiffs are wide and flat on the bottom for the most part.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

How about this? If I move the fuel tank under the leaning post/live well and put it closer to the center of gravity, it uses the otherwise wasted space below it. I have concerns about the live well being raised up affecting balance, but there are plenty of smaller skiffs running around with 30gal plastic jobs. I'd also like a larger tank, but might be able to work that out still. Thoughts?

fuel live well https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

I am not fond of this idea because it is too complex for my taste. The more functions you cram in a small space, the less well the space serves those functions. All that being said, I think this idea is do-able.

You'll have to beef up the livewell to suspend it like that or install cross members to support the bottom, but you are making it, so that won't be an issue.

The weight of the water at that height doesn't thrill me, but it is probably acceptable. The sloshing bothers me. It is tough on anything in the livewell and it might exaggerate the hull's wallowing in cross swells. Raise the overflow of the livewell as high as possible to limit the air gap and, thereby, sloshing. You probably will need to put a gasket around the hatch and put a latch on it. When a wake rocks you from the side, 18 gallons sloshing side to side with minimal air gap 36" above the sole will pop a unlatched hatch and slosh water into the cockpit. I an not sure how frequently you run the livewell pump, but you might need to plumb in some type of aerator if the hatch is sealed and you don't run the livewell pump constantly.

Jacques repeatedly says the FS17 is a big boat for its size and then he'll immediately turn around and emphasis how small it is compared to his OD18. I think it will fit your needs well 80% of the time, but I think you are trying to imagin-ate it into a bigger boat than it ever will be. I know you are just trying to anticipate problems, but I feel you are basing your planning on your 20% need, not your 80% need. 

I think you need to accept two hard truths. No matter how hard you think this out, this boat will be crowded with two adults and two kids when fishing and claustrophobic with two adults and two kids when camping (max load). That isn't a big deal once you manage your expectations; my family fished two adults and two kids out of a 14' aluminum for years. When we moved to a 17', it was luxurious... ...but it was still crowded. Hell, two kids make a 22' bay boat feel tiny. 

Next, that dang 96 qt cooler is the elephant in the boat. A 96 qt cooler will ALWAYS be in the way in a 16' center console boat no matter how hard you Tetris it. If you design the boat around that big cooler, something else will be in the way as a result, as you have discovered. This doesn't mean you can't use the 96 qt when you need it, but expect the boat to be very crowded at your max loads or you will be disappointed. The best you can hope for at your max load is "manageable".

For your purposes, I like how you've shortened the rear deck and moved the leaning post and console toward the stern. I'd add enough length to the front deck to allow you to fit the fuel tanks you need forward and have some decent dry storage. Since you are not accessing your storage through the bulkhead, I'd put the 96 qt crosswise immediately behind the deck when you need it and I would extend the deck as necessary to make sure the sole was wide enough at the bulkhead to allow this without a gap between the cooler and deck. Bigger decks increase storage and preserve usable space in this situation while awkward gaps waste space. A 54 qt cooler can be under the leaning post or forward of the console based on your preference. The livewell would be wherever the cooler isn't. I like the livewell in front of the console because it has round corners that will help open up the front sole area. Batteries would be under the console. I usually like under gunnel rod storage, but vertical rod storage on the console will allow you to open up the cockpit by narrowing the gunnels.

Nate


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Dang Nate, where do I start, lol. I guess let me start at my current situation, the Plytanic. I built my current boat for a fairly particular mission, to fish 1-2 guys shallow as can be, and she does it beautifully. Well what she was built for, and what she gets used for are very different things. I've only hardcore flats fished her about 30% of the time. I've used her for beach camping 5% of the time, gone scalloping 5%, fished channels and bridges with 3-4 guys 15%, shark fished the edges with 3-4 guys 15%, family flats fished (not serious with kids) 20%, and about 20% family cruising and beach day. Now I think that works out to 110%, and that's just how I roll. It's also how far past the design criteria I've pushed this little boat, which is why it's so important to get the next one right.

The old saying doesn't really work for me anymore...."Buy/Build a boat for how you use it 90% of the time, not the 10% you want to".... I really need 2-3 boats, but I'm not quite there in life just yet. Since I don't have a 90% of the time, I need to carefully build features into her that will serve us 90% of the time. It's tricky and I'll be adjusting things until the end. 

I'm not a fan of putting the gas tank under the live well, or the elevated live well in general due to the issues mentioned. However it really would solve all the issues. I doubt I'll use it, but it's on the table.

As we can see, I'm struggling with the gas tank and cooler, and storage. A move in one effects the other. I want a leaning post because I stand while operating most of the time, but eliminating elevated seating would actually serve me well. I need a good amount of storage, especially dry storage, but the rear motor well bulkhead makes it hard to use efficiently. Extending the front deck is almost a must, but it eats into cockpit space, and still doesn't give great storage. 

Another issue that was recently brought to my attention is the center of gravity as the boat was designed. It should be between 40-42% of the waterline measured from the transom per Jacques. This has forced me to change things as well, now the console and ride position needs to be moved back near a foot making it much harder to work out the positioning in the rear. I've got a few other tweaks I'm gonna work on and see how they play out.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Here's the latest rendition. I found a smaller fuel tank, it's only 13 gallons, and I have to mount it across the beam, but it will work I think with the deck height and allow me extra storage. I'm concerned that I might wind up with to much weight forward, but not to much.
FS17 Sample A3 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

firecat1981 said:


> ...now the console and ride position needs to be moved back near a foot making it much harder to work out the positioning in the rear.


I thought you already moved it back already? You need to move it back more?

You are doing this wrong. You need a bigger garage, not the biggest boat that will fit in your current garage. Once you take care of that, build the FS19.

Nate


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Lol, I wish. That would mean buying a new house. If I could buy a new house I'd probably jump up to a 20-22 panga.

The last picture showed the center of gravity, I went by the plan description before that showed a small console about 11" or so towards the bow. 

Been going over things, and the real part I'm stuck on now is the leaning post. I'm 6'3" so a short one isn't an option. Not sure if it will work out in a boat this small. I might try to design some kind of cedar convertible cooler stand. I'd have to elevate the cooler a bit, but it wouldn't be as dramatic as the live well combo, and the load would be more static.

Also as far as the gas tank goes. If I can't fit more then 12 or so gallons then I might as well stick to portable tanks. I was hoping to get near the 20 gallon mark, but it's not working out unless I want the longest thinnest custom belly tank made.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Just make a cedar leaning post the height you need, but designed as the front of a cooler mount so a 54 qt cooler ties down underneath it. You don't need to lean on the cooler, so there is no reason to raise it. I'd take the opportunity to make some type of locking console behind the leaning post being sure to leave enough space over the cooler to easily open the lid fully without smashing your fingers. You need 20-24" between the rear deck and the cooler. That looks reasonable based on your drawing. 

Nate


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Ah and there in lies one of the issues, the measurement behind the leaning post is a hair under 20", but that is without adding any additional rear storage. I've got some more stuff to play with. I can make up the height of the leaning post no problem, Even add a touch of dry storage (glove box) under the seat, but I'd like to build it from cedar strips if I can just for a bit of flash, to match the console accent and poling platform..... ah dreams.....


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

The cedar strip will be sexy. Why the hesitation? This is all reasonable and easily within your capabilities.

I will lay money you can shift the leaning post/cooler 1-2" without issue.

Nate


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

No real hesitation....besides a busted shoulder right now. It will be time consuming, but might look really cool. If I build a custom cooler I can keep it on the skinny and long side so it fits better.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Ok, how about this? I moved the rear bulkhead just a little, shortened up the console, and extended the front deck to fit the gas tank. The gunnels are 8" wide, but I might go with 9 or 10". 
FS17 Sample A4 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I've been doing a lot of work on determining the center of gravity, and total weight vs capacity....I may need to raise the sole a little if I want the deck to always be self bailing. Not sure as I work out some other issues.

The internet is a great resource, but at the same time it is lacking in what seems like basic info some times. While searching a while back I was looking for the base size of an I-pilot. No where could I find the dimensions of it or the quick release. I finally found it on another forum at 20"x8", and based all my plans to date off of it. Well a trip to Bass Pro turned quite informative as I found the new I-pilots to be smaller then I remembered and the Quick release for them only measures 13"x7".

So with the fortunate news of the smaller TM footprint I was able to redesign the bow. It will now be a level deck which will add to the function and I think will look much nicer.
FS17 Sample A5 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

My observations FC: The console is too far forward. You will soon be on a first name basis with your dentist.

Second, your sole height is higher than you think. http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?album=867&pid=20663#top_display_media

The build plan says the sole is ABOVE the water line and is suppose to be self bailing if loaded light.

That leaves plenty of room for an under deck tank. The benefit is that you build a removeable hatch and can move the tank fore/aft to balance the load as you like.

Nate has a great idea about the cooler. Just do it!


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm bouncing between between forums and a lot of this has been worked out elsewhere so let me recap. 

The console is nearly a foot further back then the plans suggest in my last few layouts. Jacques suggests the center of gravity be 2-3" behind the console for the best ride characteristics. I'll elaborate on this more a bit later.

The plans are a bit confusing when it comes to draft and weight. The sole is above the waterline.....at the designed weight limit! For the FS17 that is 1465lbs. Yes that seems like a lot, but once you add everything up (hull, cooler, fuel, live well, 4-stroke outboard, console, gunnels, decks.......) my base figure was around 1045+lbs without anyone on board and no extra gear. So add 3 guys averaging 200lbs that's over 1600lbs and the scuppers will be well under water. Is that a concern for this rig with a self bailing deck, not really, but it means our feet will be soggy and I'd rather not have that. Raising the sole an inch adds another 330lbs to the capacity making it 1795lbs, perfect.

Even with raising the sole an inch there still is not enough room for a tank under there. At least not a properly designed one. No matter where I put it it worked put to a max of 13 gallons. Well if I can't have a decent sized tank then I'd rather just have a portable I can swap out quickly. 

I'm drawing plans for the leaning post, and I'll build the cooler down the line when I have time. Thinking if making the front cushion flip like in the high dollar CC boats so it's a seat and leaning post. Problem is every bit of cool adds weight.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Have one like this made and put it in the bow area.



firecat1981 said:


> Raising the sole an inch adds another 330lbs to the capacity


Forget the scuppers and problems are solved. What is the purpose of scuppers on this anyway? is it that wet underway?


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

One of the main appeals of the permanent tank to me is having a fuel guage, well the digital guage package that comes with the outboard will accurately show me the fuel consumption so I don't need it. Trust me I went back and forth on this for days, the only way it would be an advantage is if I can hide it under the sole slightly forward of the console center to improve the beam stability, and increase the capacity to 15+ gallons.

The boat is very dry for its size. Keep in mind I won't be sticking to the flats this go around. This skiff will be fishing the bay, channels, and near shore up to a few miles out. We will be snorkeling, scalloping, tossing cast nets....and I don't want the floor soaked all the time. I could simply plug the scuppers until they are needed so that's an option. Or raise the floor 1/2"-1" is a viable option. 

I'm trying to work as much out ahead of time so I'm not playing catch up, but everything is up for change.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

How about skipping the scuppers, put a drain in each rear corner and a sump area under the motor well (equip with auto bilge pump).

Or if you raise the sole do the same thing except plumb the lines directly to a thru hull fitting (with a shut off valve of course).


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

The Scuppers run from the deck straight out the transom keeping the bilge dry, they are glassed tubes so no need for thru-hull fittings. Shut off valves can work, but a plug is safer and easier.

My current skiff's deck drains to the bilge area and then gets pumped out by the bilge pump when enough water builds up. This works great for the flats, but can be dangerous offshore. When talking to open water guys about what features are needed you get a varied response on options, but they almost always will tell you a self bailing deck is a must.

This is getting long winded, but I'll share a quick story about why I really want it. Fishing for sharks off the port manatee channel a few years ago things got real quick. The winds built heavy with an incoming storm, but we were on the leeward side of the island so we didn't notice. A foolish mistake, but when we realized we made our way back to the ramp. We were going through honest 2-3fters with a heavy headwind. Eventually we took one over the bow and another, and had 3-4 inches of water in the cockpit. I stayed in the trough as best I could until the majority was drained to the bilge and most of it was pumped out. Lesson learned.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Ok, well it seems I may need to shift the console back a few inches. My Dentist will be happy

I recalculated the center of gravity after a few adjustments, numbers to follow. The problem is if I shift everything then it pushed the CG back even farther, leading to another adjustment.....

Arm = inches measured from the transom at the waterline, moment is the 2 figures multiplied. Divide the total moment by the total weight and you get close to the CG. You can see how much the trolling motor on the bow changes things.

Item-------------Weight-------------Arm--------------Moment

Hull---------------340-----------------70---------------23800
Front deck------15------------------146--------------2190
Console----------25------------------92---------------2300
Leaning post----20------------------49----------------980
Cooler------------35------------------49----------------1715
Batteries---------120----------------84----------------10080
Gas tank----------85-----------------137--------------11645
LW water---------125---------------100--------------12500
SUB TOTAL-------765----------------------------------65210

60hp(no JP)-----229----------------(-15)------------(-3435)
TOTALS-----------994-----------------------------------61775
CG = 62.2 inches measured from the transom waterline

I-Pilot TM-------- 45-----------------199--------------8955
TOTALS-----------1039---------------------------------70730
CG with TM = 68.1 inches (TM = 5.9” difference)

Jack plate---------23-----------------(-3)--------------(-69)
60hp(4”SB)-------229---------------(-19)-------------(-4351)
TOTALS-----------1017----------------------------------60790
CG with JP no TM = 59.8 inches

TOTALS-----------1062---------------------------------69745
CG with JP and I-pilot installed = 65.7 inches (TM = 5.9” difference)


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

That gets you a level boat. Where will the CG be at a nominal 7 degree running angle? Where will the waterline meet the hull? Will your motor lift the bow to 7 degrees?

Also: my second paragraph above still has the scuppers but by using a hose will prevent the soggy feet as you will experience with direct through scuppers.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

The motor will lift the bow to 45 degrees if I'm not careful, lol. I'm going with a 60hp most likely, the recommended hp for this boat is 25-50, but in it's basic form it will plane with a 15hp. Running angle is a product of thrust and trim on a well balanced hull, which is why I really am trying to get the CG in the ball park. No hull has a perfect balance at both rest and speed. These calculations are actually for running speed, according to the design the ideal CG will be 40-42% of the waterline to create the best handling characteristics. 

Really though, even if the CG is a foot off it won't be that bad, and it changes every time someone moves about the boat. Remember this is all an exercise in compromise, as every boat is. I'm sure the plans will change a few dozen more times.

As far as the scuppers go I'm not understanding what you are suggesting. Instead of a fiberglass tube directly out the transom covered by flappers, and able to be plugged on the inside, are you suggesting I use 2 thru-hull fittings joined by tubing with a valve in the middle?


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

If you take water over the bow, I suspect the bigger the scupper, the better. I also suspect a plugged scupper will never be open when you really need it. It seems the only reasonable options given your desired capability are big honking scuppers with flapper/ball valves mounted high enough above the water line to be open at all times. Any scupper will work while running, but if you are going to depend on scuppers to dump water in a worst case scenario, you have to set them up to work under the hull's max load while dead in the water. 

"How much can you raise sole?" is the real question. 

Other than fuel, is there anything you can fit below the sole to lower the CG if you raise the decks? 

Would a lighter motor like a 40 HP give you the necessary clearance without raising the sole as much? 

Nate


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## Cut Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Firecat, I have a few ideas that may alleviate your spacial concerns. I'll draw up a few soon and send them to you


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

DuckNut said:


> My observations FC: The console is too far forward. You will soon be on a first name basis with your dentist.
> 
> Second, your sole height is higher than you think. http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?album=867&pid=20663#top_display_media
> 
> ...


I'm a little late to the party, but I agree with Ducknut on moving the console back. In fact if you want to make the boat a little more family-friendly, maybe move to all the way back and extend the rear deck and fashion seating something like this Seahunter to make it a little safer for the kids :
View attachment 5539


Chittum made an interesting built-in cooler fixed to the forward bulkhead which also serves as a step-box off the foredeck. I had a picture somewhere, but can't find it.

Also, you were looking for a way to mount your GPS. You can mount a U-shaped grab bar attached to the sole and the front of the console, then use the two "legs" to secure the GPS a little above the console inside a starboard box.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

If you put a scupper through the transom at deck height every time a wave hits or someone walks in that corner it will allow water in. Albeit, it will drain out but why even have it get in.

In your last drawing, let's say the rear deck is 20 inches. Where the bulkhead meets the floor put a drain with the float ball in each corner and attach a 90 degree elbow. Attach a 2" tube/hose and run it to the transom. Have a thru hull fitting with a valve attached to it. Attach the hose/tube to the valve.

The tube/hose will cushion the water ebb and the float will prevent water from coming up through the drain. In the case of emergency you can turn the valve closed and prevent any water from entering.

It is remarkable how the tube will stave off the water ebb when a wave hits it. A wave will push water every where including through the scupper and including the tube. However, when the wave hits and pushes water into the tube it will be the lenght of the wave - say 8-10 inches. That is only 1/2 the length of the tube so water only gets pushed half way up the tube but then the boat rises up from the wave.

Like this: Look in the corner and you see the drain.


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

In theory my boat is self-bailing but to be on the safe side I got some of these on eBay which will drain from the cockpit into the engine well. I'm not sure this is the exact same one (Orca sounds familiar), but the ones I got have a membrane which lets water flow only in one direction, out.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-4-INCH-ST...ITTING-ORCA-/191971489108?hash=item2cb2647554


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/23-panga-open-bilge-design-29093.html

This page got me thinking. While I do not like the idea of depending on bilge pumps in hairy situations nor do I think you should have a big drain grate on the floor, the problem with a relying on a raised/sealed sole and scuppers is that that space under the sole is off limits and all centers of mass are thereby elevated. You can't have any low points if you are relying on the sole to send water back to the scuppers.

On the other hand, what about an open bilge with bilge pump(s) that is accessed by sealed hatches and a raised sole with scuppers in the cockpit? 

As mentioned, one concern about raising a sealed sole high enough for scuppers to work properly is that every center of mass must also be raised. If the bilge is no longer out of bounds, you could lower your centers of mass like fuel, batteries and livewell to the bottom of the hull. You could even make a built-in sunken cooler under the leaning post. All low points would drain to the bilge or externally (I'd insulate and plumb livewell/coolers to be interchangeable). Only the cockpit would have an elevated sole. This would leave only the human load and some tackle elevated to sole height. We fish at deck height on a daily basis without difficulty and the hull is more stable when moving that when fishing due to the stabilizing forces of lift, so I think this would be reasonable. You'd still have scuppers to dump the vast majority of water out of the cockpit, but if some found its way to the bilge, the pumps could handle it. 

This is slightly more complex because you have to have bilge pumps and you have to build in subfloor access (if water can get there, you have to be able to get there), but it allows you to raise the sole in the cockpit enough that those scuppers work properly without excessively raising the CG.

Just the 2 cents of a fool...

Nate


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Ok let me try to compose my thoughts, lol. Down the rabbit hole we go.....

Nate you are right on track with what I'm thinking. If I plug the scuppers it will be done with simple rubber plugs from the inside, some guys use tennis balls, but if plugged they can quickly be unplugged. Not exactly what I want but it's the simplest solution so far.
As far as moving weight down to counteract a raised deck, yes, I can move the batteries down under the console 3-4", so 120lbs lowered 4" might counteract 300lbs raised 1"? I haven't done the math, just guessing. 
As far as the open bilge goes, it's what I have now, it has worked great, but I do have to rely on the bilge pump, or pulling the drain plug to get accumulated water out. Most of JM's designs avoid this for safety.

Blue zone, the rear elevated seat design is one I drew up a few times, problem is getting it elevated enough for me to be comfortable, and also it makes the skiff very stern heavy. It eliminates a little seating, but it could be made up with open cockpit spaces and bean bags though. I didn't post those drawings because I wasn't a huge fan of them.
I don't think the scuppers will be as big a deal when I'm done, I just gotta get the math somewhere close.

Duck, I get what you are suggesting, and agree it's a good option, but I don't think it will work on this skiff. The contender you posted has it's cockpit sole well above the waterline so the scuppers drain down and out. With the FS17's waterline being so low adding a 90 fitting would have the drains full of water anytime the loaded boat is not moving. The ball valve would eliminate some of the water from coming up, but the hydrostatic pressure against the seals would be greater then the pooling water inside the cockpit, so any accumulated water might not evacuate. I'm willing to consider anything, but I want to eliminate as many points of failure as I can. The straight glassed in scuppers with flapper valves seem to be the most reliable.


I have to do some other calculations before I draw anything again.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Nate came up with a good idea. But you are wrong in thinking the sole won't drain. If you think the sole won't evacuate then that would be because the sole is below the water line. If the sole is below the water line, your scuppers will allow water in at all times therefore flooding the boat. Your scuppers will be slightly lower than the ones in the floor at all times when there is any squat whatsoever in the rear.

If there is 1 1/2" between the sole and the hull, there is plenty of room.

I think you are just making up excuses


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## Cut Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

If your deck is within an inch plus or minus of the waterline I would just put the ping pong ball scuppers on it. I put them on my boat after a couple years of doing the tennis ball thing... man I should have put them on since day one!! I was super against them because I viewed them as being "hokey" if you will.. love em now.


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## Cut Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Also, what if you built in a coffin box instead of the cooler into the boat in front of (or part of the console). But in a way that it is sunken into the floor so you can have the extra size, keep a lower center of gravity etc. If that doesn't make any sense I can explain further


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

firecat1981 said:


> Here's the latest rendition. I found a smaller fuel tank, it's only 13 gallons, and I have to mount it across the beam, but it will work I think with the deck height and allow me extra storage. I'm concerned that I might wind up with to much weight forward, but not to much.
> FS17 Sample A3 , on Flickr


Man this version looks good to me. I like the gas tank up front to even out the weight of the motor. Just do what you want its your boat


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I can't believe we are still going around on this, lol. I sat down and drew up some quick illustrations showing the scupper system in various forms. With respect to the designer I don't want to give out to many dimensions, but I drew these out to actual size down to approximately 1/8". This will be the last time I'm going deep into this rabbit hole, these illustrations, and the info I have confirmed should serve as enough to move off this topic.

Here is the boat as designed. As you can see the DWL is at the bottom face of the sole with a load of 1465lbs. As mentioned earlier my load at times may easily exceed 1600lbs raising the water line above the sole a bit. While the boat would still be safe, our feet would be wet.

scuppers basic , on Flickr

The easiest solution is to raise the sole. This will decrease stability a bit, however with just a 1" raise it dramatically increases capacity by 330lbs. Talking to other FS17 builders they don't seem to think this will be a huge issue, and I can counter balance some of the weight by sinking heavy items into sole.

scuppers plus 1 , on Flickr

Duck, I went and actually contacted TH marine to ask them about these scupper drains. I assume these are the style you are talking about (yes I know there are better companies, but the install is the same):

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/t-h-marine--90-scupper-drain--15921034

If these are the drain style you were referring to then I'm sorry but they will not work. They require at least 3.5" below deck to properly install, and the unit must be installed ABOVE the waterline to work correctly. So I would need to raise even more. It will also add 2 additional points of failure below the waterline.

scuppers floor drains , on Flickr

Harvest Time/Cut Runner/Royce.....Whatever you want to be called, lol. You hit on what I was thinking. Raise the sole 1/2"-1" and add the scupper valves to the transom face. No offense to anyone, but your ideas hold a lot of weight because your Hobie Power Skiff is closer to the FS17 then most of the boats here, and you use her (running through inlets, offshore, nearshore, bay, and flats) the way I will be. It also uses a similar scupper/bilge system. So that is the way I am leaning, and think it's the best option.

scuppers plus ping pong , on Flickr

As far as built in coffin boxes go, it is an idea I was playing with. As long as I can maintain enough room to take an additional cooler for camping it might work out ok.

So Clear as mud everyone, lol? Now we can get back to the fun stuff.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Debate will continue until the horse is pulp and the clubs are broken. Quit your whining.

Nate


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## Cut Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Lol smart man! 
I think raising the deck that extra inch is the way to go with addition to the ping pong balls.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

But Nate, I thought you can't eat horses anymore?


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Mashed pony is delicious!

Nate


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## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

If I build another, it will have nothing in it. Just an open front and back deck. 1" thick strip foam build. 1708, 1708 , 1.5oz matt all with poly resin on the exterior. 3/4oz matt, 10oz kevlar, 3/4 oz matt all at once w/ viynal resin on the interior. Decks will be 3/4" divynal with a 1.5oz matt, 12oz cloth 1.5oz matt on top, 1708 on the bottom, all polyester resin and glassed in with viynal. No battery, no electronics, no bilge pump, no nothing. Pull start 30hp etec and a removable grab bar.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I really don't see any advantage to building a boat like that in such a small size other then to say you did. The weight savings won't be there to justify the additional costs.

Either way, no offense, that boat would be nearly worthless to me now, as it doesn't meet any of my program criteria. For skinny water chucking arties sure, but I can always design and build one later in a short time if I ever decide to go back to that style of fishing. As for now I've grown bored of the shallows and want more variety.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

CurtisWright said:


> If I build another, it will have nothing in it. Just an open front and back deck. 1" thick strip foam build. 1708, 1708 , 1.5oz matt all with poly resin on the exterior. 3/4oz matt, 10oz kevlar, 3/4 oz matt all at once w/ viynal resin on the interior. Decks will be 3/4" divynal with a 1.5oz matt, 12oz cloth 1.5oz matt on top, 1708 on the bottom, all polyester resin and glassed in with viynal. No battery, no electronics, no bilge pump, no nothing. Pull start 30hp etec and a removable grab bar.


Sounds like a very expensive version of an aluminum jon boat.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

firecat1981 said:


>


Scuppers can in fact, drain out the sides. Also, you can half the distance of the scupper depth oe lower it some and put a recessed divot in the floor and set the scupper where the bottom of the scupper is just below the floor and or the drain groove/channel in the floor, by at least a half inch to an inch, thereby removing any remaining water on the floor, yet still being above the water line. In other words, set the scupper about 1/2" to 1" below the floor line with a recessed drain pocket to accommodate the scupper and remove any remaining water on the deck!.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Side scuppers are really only used on commercial boats where the sole is well above the waterline. Reason is they can eliminate a lot of water, and they expect the deck to be wet at all times anyway from hauling nets and traps. You don't see them on many recreational boats because they don't keep water out very well, and they don't look great.
As far as pocketing out the floor drains, yes you can do that, but it lowers the level of the drain making it less efficient. A floor drain/scupper works best when it is maintained above the waterline and with as much downward angle as possible.

I appreciate the insight and opinions guys, between discussions here, other forums, and with several designers and builders I'm pretty solid on my plan.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

After some concerning comments here about the console placement and a more intimate relationship with my dentist, I started looking at it and similar program boats. When compared to boats like Aquasports, Mako's (old, new, and proskiff), and previously mentioned Hobies, my latest console location is in a very similar place, in some cases mine if further towards the stern. I have chatted to a few other FS17 builders and they do not have a concern and even suggested I move the console a little further forward. They also calmed some of my fears on a perfect weight balance as the boat can take loads well. Still plenty of time to play, but my direction is becoming clearer


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I haven't put this one to bed just yet. I'm still playing and figuring things out. I overlaid the outline of one of the last fs17 layouts I worked on over a pic of the sportsman island reef 17. I did this with a few different boats, but this one I actually saved. It has similar length and beam so it matched up well. 

sportsman compare small copy https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr

As you can see the console and seating are 6-8" further forward then the FS17 layout. If I can move the fuel tank so the fill is on the console side like I talked about in another thread that will open up a world of opportunity with storage on that front deck.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Figured I'd post this up too. I measured the approximate layout spacing. I know a lot of guys wonder about this stuff when trying to think of how they want their skiffs laid out, so here you go.

sportsman layout1 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

firecat1981 said:


> I haven't put this one to bed just yet. I'm still playing and figuring things out. I overlaid the outline of one of the last fs17 layouts I worked on over a pic of the sportsman island reef 17. I did this with a few different boats, but this one I actually saved. It has similar length and beam so it matched up well.
> 
> sportsman compare small copy , on Flickr
> 
> As you can see the console and seating are 6-8" further forward then the FS17 layout. If I can move the fuel tank so the fill is on the console side like I talked about in another thread that will open up a world of opportunity with storage on that front deck.


So then you are admitting that you will be putting the fuel tank under the sole? That looks like where it is in the overlay as well as other stuff is obviously under there as well. 

You could also put the tank forward enough that it just sticks under the front deck and place the fill in the corner of the front deck. That way you could completely fill the tank with ease.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm going to explore it as a possibility, but it might not be feasible. The end of the tank will need to be exposed so the fittings don't take away from the volume. If it's exposed under the front deck then everything needs to be front mounted, which means it will be near impossible to get full use out of the gas in the tank, or decent readings off the float. A big issue for a lot of boats now, but they have larger tanks then I'll be running. If I can run all the fittings at the rear of the tank and up through the console then the issue is solved.

As far as the overlay, yes that's where the tank is, but the sole height is much higher on that boat so it's an easy fit.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Still playing around. I'm using a static amount of a full tank of fuel, so obviously the CG will move further back as it empties out. From full to empty is about a 5" difference.

FS17 Sample13a https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

So here is my last rendering. It's a little more simple maybe, the cooler is just strapped down in front of the deck. If I go this route I might build a custom cooler to match the deck height. This layout allows some additional flexibility and room for additional coolers when camping. With the near static load of the cooler up front the CG doesn't move around as much and the console is pushed back a bit more. 

FS17 Sample14a https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr

I think I've narrowed it down to either this setup or the one I posted right before this one. I already figured out a way to make the oval livewell the way I want. I'm thinking about either building a window into it, or just use plexiglass for the lid. 

Thoughts on all of it. I gotta get it figured out, it's near time to start.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Since you are having a custom tank made I think one like this and put in under a removable hatch would solve your problem. The fuel line could be a gravity drain instead of a pick up and that would eliminate some depth issues and you could make the tank anywhere from a couple gallons to probably 40-50.

Given you already limited size parameters, really hate to see you wasting deck/hatch space with a tank.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Didn't think they could do a gravity drain. I figured it was against codes in case the hose failed, then your bilge would be full of fuel. Another issue is the bulkheads, about every 36" from the bow so I can't run a tank that long. Think the most I can really get is about 13-15gal.

A lot of this is still up in the air. I'm going to get the stringers in, then remeasure everything before making the true final decisions.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

The line just needs an anti syphon device at the outlet. 183.568

You could also put a pickup line toward the bow, run the pickup to be back of the tank and run the line down the gunnel.

You can also leave out (reposition) 1 of the bulkheads to the end of the tank or make a real short one that also acts as a tank support.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I've sent 2 requests to speedytanks over the last few weeks and haven't heard back. I've got plenty of time to change things going forward, but as it sits now I'll most likely be going with the 12 gallon portable tank. 

So that being said, I still finalizing my choices. Moving the livewell to the rear deck serves as a challenge as it's a lot of weight back there, but is the best arrangement for the baits health. I'm going to play a bit more with things, but I started thinking about the basic design. If I build it as a basic tiller skiff or 3 bench model, I would be sitting towards the rear deck and all the weight would be towards the rear. This isn't ideal, but the skiff will still run ok because the stern has the lowest deadrise and most buoyancy . So any weight moved forward should serve as a bonus.

That being said, my latest layout has the CG about a foot or so behind the ideal 42%, I'm thinking it will still run and float just fine, but I'm still playing. This design has the cooler under the leaning post, but leaves enough room that I can relocate it to in front of the console for better weight balance depending on how we load for the day. Or just carry an extra cooler when camping.....

FS17 Sample15a https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Where does your CG move to if you switch the live well and cooler?


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Do you mean if I put the livewell in the leaning post?


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

firecat1981 said:


> Do you mean if I put the livewell in the leaning post?


Yep, like many offshore boats and build a built in cooler/fish box where the bait well is identified.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I was thinking about built in coolers a while back and had a few sketches. Let me dig them up and see how the math works out.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Well after playing with it I think the built in cooler might be a good way to go. That being said I might move it to the front. Swapping the cooler and livewell only changed the center of gravity by a few inches, but it still is about 10" further to the stern then the basic design. It would work, but I'll see how it changes, I would rather have the livewell in the rear for ease of plumbing.

FS17 Sample16a https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Well I was finalizing my plans, cleaning out the garage, and getting ready to make an order to be picked up in a few weeks.......then I hit a snag!

I'm not sure the boat, how I want it, will fit in my garage. My garage is a standard 20x20 (more like 19x19) so I'll have to park it diagonally even with a swing tongue on the trailer. I was ok with that, but I never considered height. My garage door is a standard 7ft tall, but add in the tracks and hurricane bars and it's more like 6.5ft. I was standing in my garage this morning looking at my skiff thinking how nice the bigger boat will be, then it hit me. With a leaning post on a raised sole, standing console and a poling platform it might not clear the door.

I'll have to do some major measuring when I get home, but it's not looking good for the boat setup I really want.


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

DuckNut said:


> Since you are having a custom tank made I think one like this and put in under a removable hatch would solve your problem. The fuel line could be a gravity drain instead of a pick up and that would eliminate some depth issues and you could make the tank anywhere from a couple gallons to probably 40-50.
> 
> Given you already limited size parameters, really hate to see you wasting deck/hatch space with a tank.
> 
> View attachment 17138


This layout for the gas tank is like my Hoog 16'8 Hornet with 24 gallon tank.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Not sure what I'm doing just yet. I'll figure part of it out tomorrow maybe.

This was the last design I did. Moving the built in cooler to the front didn't move the CG like you would think, but it's still acceptable I believe.

FS17 Sample17a https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

FC
Do you have your 40 pound trolling motor and 80lbs of batteries in your calculation?


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

The I-pilot is 45lbs, and I figured on 2 group 27 batteries at 120lbs in the console. I haven't looking into optima batteries or anything so I'm not sure if they weigh less.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Well enough drawing, it's time to make some sawdust! 16 sheets of BS1088 Okoume plywood, 9 gallons of epoxy, lots of biaxial and woven glass, and a bunch of other supplies have been ordered!


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

I'm very excited for you!! Have you considered the FS19? Looks like the same hull stretched out to 19'. Too big for the garage?


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

unusual to have a leaning post in a 16 or 17 ft boat isn't it?


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm' not even 100% sure the FS17 will actually fit in the garage, lol. It will have to be angled with a removable tongue.

Many boats this size have seats, I would rather a leaning post since I like to stand while driving. Technically the leaning post takes up less room then a typical cooler seat.


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## Erik (Dec 18, 2017)

Hi firecat1981!
say, i know these are flats boat designs, but do you think it's possible to build and run a outboard engine platform off the transom with a jack plate to gain some space and add some positive buoyancy? or is that a @#$%^ idea?


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## Erik (Dec 18, 2017)

I hope your shoulder is healing up! Best wishes and health!


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Erik said:


> add some positive buoyancy?


What do you mean by this?

The motor on a bracket won't add any meaningful extra space. It would add a couple inches above the splash well.


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## Erik (Dec 18, 2017)

I was thinking about a extra foot of bracket like a "Armstrong" Outboard Bracket hanging off the back. Where it would act like a sealed compartment, hence giving it some positive boyuancy. I'm no mechanical/ boat engineer, it was just a thought...well maybe a "backyard" engineer...lol


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

You won't see a benefit to an Armstrong bracket on a boat like this. They are really intended for larger boats that need to offset the weight of adding large 4 strokes. Plus it doesn't make sense to add something like that on a home build when you can just build it longer to start. In the end you would have a stronger boat as the bracket adds a lot of stress to the transom.

My shoulder is fine now, thanks.


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## Erik (Dec 18, 2017)

firecat1981 said:


> You won't see a benefit to an Armstrong bracket on a boat like this. They are really intended for larger boats that need to offset the weight of adding large 4 strokes. Plus it doesn't make sense to add something like that on a home build when you can just build it longer to start. In the end you would have a stronger boat as the bracket adds a lot of stress to the transom.
> 
> My shoulder is fine now, thanks.


Okay, totally understand that, Thanks for the schooling!


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## lsunoe (Dec 5, 2016)

Erik said:


> I was thinking about a extra foot of bracket like a "Armstrong" Outboard Bracket hanging off the back. Where it would act like a sealed compartment, hence giving it some positive boyuancy. I'm no mechanical/ boat engineer, it was just a thought...well maybe a "backyard" engineer...lol


Plus, the more setback the larger the moment on the hull. The moment is a measure of weight*distance so if you add an extra foot off the back of the hull then it will actually make the boat draft more.


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## Erik (Dec 18, 2017)

lsunoe said:


> Plus, the more setback the larger the moment on the hull. The moment is a measure of weight*distance so if you add an extra foot off the back of the hull then it will actually make the boat draft more.


See...this is why I joined microskiff! I'm getting a free education! Thank You to everyone that has and will share your knowledge!
Good Fishing to you all!


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## Alex Fernandez (Aug 16, 2017)

How much are you guys spending to build your boats? At what point (cost) would you consider buying a used boat over building/ restoring one? whats more important to you saving $$$ or the satisfaction of building yourself??


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## Erik (Dec 18, 2017)

Alex Fernandez said:


> How much are you guys spending to build your boats? At what point (cost) would you consider buying a used boat over building/ restoring one? whats more important to you saving $$$ or the satisfaction of building yourself??


I have to say,I actually have a 21' VIP CC which I'm replacing the transom at this time but the weather up here in NJ is not cooperating, lol! Building my own flats boat is for total self satisfaction! plus, who wouldn't want two boats!? both with different uses!
Good Fishing!
Erik G.


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## Alex Fernandez (Aug 16, 2017)

i just started a new thread on this topic. I feel like those guys that are doing it themselves dont get enough credit and recognition. I feel we focus too much on the big names and the big bucks being spent and completely overlook the great work some of the weekend warriors are putting out.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Alex Fernandez said:


> How much are you guys spending to build your boats? At what point (cost) would you consider buying a used boat over building/ restoring one? whats more important to you saving $$$ or the satisfaction of building yourself??


It depends on the boat. My first couple cost about $1500 or so, but I was sourcing lower end budget materials. My current build is bigger, more elaborate, and uses high end materials and will run about $3500. I looked long and hard at redoing an old hull, but in each instance there was so much I wanted to change or improve that it was easier to just build my own and know it was all done right.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Reviving this topic as I think I'm close to a choice here.

I've been playing with designs and calculations for months now. All of them have the center of gravity(CG) within 10 inches or so with different setups and options. The basic FS17 design has the CG about 73" in front of the water line at the transom. Well I can't get the CG that far forward no matter how much I move around options while using a 4-stroke motor. At 229lbs the Suzuki 60hp I want to use isn't the heaviest in it's class by far, but it's still 40+lbs heavier then an old 2-stroke. 

With that said, here is the way I think I'm going. I may move around the console and leaning post a bit more, but it won't effect much. 

FS17 Final 2 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr

This is a similar layout. The only major difference is the front deck. Instead of having it inset and level it will be flush with the top of the gunnel. This is an easier way to build it, but it will have a gentle curve up. The deck will also have a significant step up, I think about 21", so I was thinking about lowering the area above the gas tank by 5 inches or so to act as a step of sorts. Ultimately this is an easier way to go and will look more proportional with the rear deck, but the other way might look fancier. 

FS17 Final 2B https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

What is the height of the front deck that is inset vs the 21" flush version?


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I think I would build it about 17-18". With the 21" step up it actually curves up towards the front so the more forward you stand the higher up you are, a slightly better situation for casting as I believe between the curve and angle you'd be atleast 6" higher.

If I lower the area directly above the fuel tank to make a step it would be about 17". I can also make the step smaller, say only 10" deep if needed.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

I think I like the idea of an inset front deck on this boat, that may be because it reminds me of the tavernier 17


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