# Anybody hear from joe @ carbon marine ??



## southboundchicken (Aug 21, 2015)

I need to get a hold of Joe does anybody have his contact information... Thanks


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

813-928-9887 
That's the only number I got..


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## floridascuba (Mar 15, 2012)

AfterHours2 said:


> 813-928-9887
> That's the only number I got..


He is regularly on Facebook.


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## southboundchicken (Aug 21, 2015)

Checked his facebook page and looks like joe is getting a little selective in who he responds to and who he doesnt ... Ive always recommended his products but looks like his customer service is starting to slip


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## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

Been like that for a while.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

texasag07 said:


> Been like that for a while.


Yes it has. I tried like crazy to get a new push pole from him. Just too frustrating trying to get a response so went with a different direction.


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## Lappy_16 (Nov 5, 2007)

Joe will bend over backwards for his customers and his customer service is as good as it ever was. That being said, he is involved in the production of his products almost every step of the way and I've seen first hand his phone ringing continuously throughout the day. It's not a large company where there are several people just answering phones and messages. Say what you want but it's good products from a good company, most people know that.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

I met Joe at the Tampa Bay Fly Fishing Club's Big Gun casting competition. Really nice guy, with a really nice family. 

This thread from June shows a new phone number and extension at Carbon Marine.

http://www.microskiff.com/threads/carbon-marine.31571/page-2#post-263787


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## southboundchicken (Aug 21, 2015)

Lappy_16 said:


> Joe will bend over backwards for his customers and his customer service is as good as it ever was. That being said, he is involved in the production of his products almost every step of the way and I've seen first hand his phone ringing continuously throughout the day. It's not a large company where there are several people just answering phones and messages. Say what you want but it's good products from a good company, most people know that.


I beg to differ lappy, my brother had a tiller extension fail on him right out of the box, he contacted joe and joe swore up and down he would make it right, that was 3-4 months ago and to this day he still has not replied to any messages he or my brother have sent regarding this matter. I actually recommended joe to my brother as ive heard good things about him but as disappointed as i am now with him im not ordering anything from carbon marine for my new skiff when i start rigging it


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

What type of failure was it?


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## southboundchicken (Aug 21, 2015)

devrep said:


> What type of failure was it?


Tiller ext sheared in half at the hole thats drilled for the killswitch button causing boat to take a hard right turn tossing both occupants overboard


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

wow. assume the operator had his lanyard on or we would be hearing worse news.


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## southboundchicken (Aug 21, 2015)

devrep said:


> wow. assume the operator had his lanyard on or we would be hearing worse news.


Oh yea definitely had both life jackets and a kill switch, one of the occupants was my brothers 9 year old son so we dont play around


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

southboundchicken said:


> Oh yea definitely had both life jackets and a kill switch, one of the occupants was my brothers 9 year old son so we dont play around


What model and HP engine?


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## southboundchicken (Aug 21, 2015)

sjrobin said:


> What model and HP engine?


25 hp mercury 2 stroke


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

That's bizarre. I'm having a hard time imagining how carbon fiber would sheer with no warning without smashing into something. Isn't the kill switch on that motor on the end of the tiller? Does it get moved to the side off the extension? If I were CM I would be fighting to get that tiller back in my shop so I could see what went wrong.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

southboundchicken said:


> Tiller ext sheared in half at the hole thats drilled for the killswitch button causing boat to take a hard right turn tossing both occupants overboard





jmrodandgun said:


> That's bizarre. I'm having a hard time imagining how carbon fiber would sheer with no warning without smashing into something.


Sharknado?


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

southboundchicken said:


> 25 hp mercury 2 stroke


I had a 2003 Mercury 25 HP and the weak design cast tiller handle failed *behind* the extension.


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## Whiskey Angler (Mar 20, 2015)

jmrodandgun said:


> That's bizarre. I'm having a hard time imagining how carbon fiber would sheer with no warning without smashing into something. Isn't the kill switch on that motor on the end of the tiller? Does it get moved to the side off the extension? If I were CM I would be fighting to get that tiller back in my shop so I could see what went wrong.


Sounds like the CF had a nick or a tear where the killswitch hole was drilled, and with a decent amount of leverage on the tiller (I would think it would take a lot) the CF tube tore/cracked starting at the hole.


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## southboundchicken (Aug 21, 2015)

Tiller ext was brand new out of the box and less than one hour run time on smooth water and without warning while in a slight turn the extension tore, sheared, ripped, call it what u will but at that moment control of the boat was lost and both occupants tossed over board....... Im no c.f. Expert but in my opinion when that hole was drilled it lost a lot of its strength and that is exactly where it failed


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

I don't know man, just sounds fishy.


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## JoeWelbourn (Dec 11, 2006)

Southbounchicken, This is Joe Welbourn. Several points to cover here. Yes, I stay slammed busy. I do miss calls and emails. I apologize. I am not perfect. I try diligently to answer every call and every email. Unfortunately the sheer volume is more than I can handle alone. My company has grown from my kitchen table 8 years ago to a larger company with employees now. I get hundreds of calls and emails each week. I have hired a staff of five people to help keep service levels perfect, but there are times we fail. So for that, I apologize. For anyone that has a negative experience with my products, my company or me pesonally, here is my personal cell phone number: 813-928-9887 and the new office number is 813-284-7040. Here is my email: [email protected]. Feel free to call or email me anytime. Eventually I do get caught up on both calls and emails. 

Now the unfortunate part. Your version of what happened to your brother (Tom) is simply and completely inaccurate. I am not sure why you stated what you did but that is irrelevant at this point. Your rendition of the events seems to be oriented to injure me and my company. I take that serious since I am the sole income-earner for my wife and two children.

Here are the facts. Your brother (Tom) purchased a TillerPillar June 19,2015. He was running his boat while using the TillerPillar. Something happened that lead to him and a child to getting throw out of the boat while running at a high rate of speed. Gratefully, no one was hurt. Your brother called me. I spent half an hour on the phone with him trying to understand what happened. He told me frankly, he did no really know since it happened so fast. All he knew with confidence was they were running, they were ejected, and upon getting back to the boat the TillerPillar was broken and he lost a pair of Costa sunglasses.

After speaking with Tom, I immediately built him a replacement TillerPillar with extra reinforcement and no kill-switch hole at no expense to him. Although we have hundreds of TillarPillars in service all over the World, we have never heard of a catastrophic failure of this type. I really wanted to see the broken TillerPillar. The next 5-6 units we built we added extra carbon fiber to insure the TillerPillar was solid. We made Tom another TillerPillar. Futhermore, I had my delivery driver, Jim Birdsong, drive more than 4 hours across the state to physically delivered the replacement to Tom in person.

We got the broken TillarPillar back to my office for inspection. We studied the broken TillerPillar. In summary, we think Tom unknowingly struck something in the water. The impact jerked the motor quickly and the TillerPillar slipped out of Tom's hand, the boat veered sharply ejecting Tom and the child. The TillerPillar then slammed into something on the boat a poling-platform or seat causing an immediate compression break. The one side of the broken TillerPillar displays a very distinct linear compression crack we have seen in other failure-analysis. The fault line did not span across the shortest distance. Instead the fault line ran diagonally from the kill-switch opening mounting lobe. There were chipped notches and traces of a sharp edge impact on the area of the compression crack. Kind of like holding a piece of cardboard on an edge then folding to produce a distinct fold/break line. We see this type of edge impact compress failure in push-poles frequently when they get pinned again the gunnel, trim-tabs or motor skeg. My experience and analysis lead me to think the event happen so fast Tom may not has realized the motor struck something in the water jerking the TillerPillar out of Tom's hand thus causing the boat to veer direction quickly leading everything to go tragically awry. 

After our analysis, I emailed your brother (Tom). I explained the above observation. Here is Tom's words straight from his reply email from Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 6:18PM. He does not seem upset at me:

“Joe, very possible as it happened so fast that one minute in cruising along and the next minute in in the water ... THANK YOU FOR WHAT YOUR DOING !! I REALLY APPRECIATE IT !! Regards , Tom”​
Lastly, during my conversations with your brother I also offered to replace the Costa sunglasses he lost even though I am certain my product did not spontaneously fail as you have publicly stated. However, to replace his lost Costa sunglasses. I wanted to use my relationships (favors owed to me in the fishing industry) to get the replacement pair he lost. I still have not been able to meet with my friends to get his replacement pair of sunglasses. I will get them replaced once I meet with my friends in the fish industry that owe me favors such as this.

So I completely understand and respect your concern for the tragic event Tom suffered, however, I feel you are going about it the wrong way in an attempt to discredit me and my company. I kindly ask you to stop. You are entitled to your thoughts and free-speech, but please exercise both in a manner that is accurate and constant to the facts of the event. I do not know you personally. Heck, you are probably a nice guy. I do know I take service and veiled threats to my company seriously. If you ever wish to discuss this matter in more detail. Please call or email me directly. Neither one of us benefit from this matter using the “Jerry Springer Method of Resolution”. Thank you. ~Joe.


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## g8rfly (Oct 9, 2011)

That is an upstanding, professional, response, if I have ever seen one. Joe, keep doing what you're doing- America needs more businessmen like you.


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## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

He replaced with an overbuilt brand new Tiller Pillar (delivered no less) and is comping out $250 Costa's?? What am I missing here? 

Joe, I will say this, please get your staff to respond in a more timely manner. Psychologists say one of the strongest human emotions is a feeling of self worth. When someone constantly gets ignored (wether intentional or unintentional, busy slammed whatever) they take it personally and get their dander up. I would like a pair of Howlers.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

I just got off the phone with Tom (the brother), and he confirmed Joe replaced the tiller extension quickly and satisfactorily with a mutual agreement that the cause and/or time of failure is unknown. However he did say he had given up on getting the replacement Costas because he hasn't gotten a response to his emails requesting the status of that. Tom said he was unaware of these forum posts by his brother. (That's what I suspected, and is why I called him.)



mark_gardner said:


> [/URL][/img]My brother has a 1996 mercury/mariner 25 hp 2 stroke short shaft for sale, im posting the ad for him as he's having issues logging on so call him at 904-298-4987 if your interested and he can text you pictures but heres what i know... The motor is in great overall shape and he just had the carb rebuilt by a local mercury shop, its a short shaft remote steer and controls are included, we just took it out and it runs awesome he's just selling as he replaced it with a tiller steer, comes with an aluminum prop but NO gas tank.... Asking price $1,250.00 cash  call or text him at 904-298-4987 motor is located in jacksonville florida





southboundchicken said:


> Tiller ext was brand new out of the box and less than one hour run time on smooth water and without warning while in a slight turn the extension tore, sheared, ripped, call it what u will but at that moment control of the boat was lost and both occupants tossed over board....... Im no c.f. Expert but in my opinion when that hole was drilled it lost a lot of its strength and that is exactly where it failed


Based on additional data I _"speculate"_ that Tom learned that driving a skiff at WOT with a tiller is much more sensitive than with a steering wheel, and when you move weight forward by using the tiller extension you may experience a "chine grab" that makes the skiff turn so sharply that driver/passenger(s) are ejected. The driver breaks the tiller extension during the ejection at its weakest point which was where the hole was drilled.


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## JoeWelbourn (Dec 11, 2006)

Megalops said:


> He replaced with an overbuilt brand new Tiller Pillar (delivered no less) and is comping out $250 Costa's?? What am I missing here?
> 
> Joe, I will say this, please get your staff to respond in a more timely manner. Psychologists say one of the strongest human emotions is a feeling of self worth. When someone constantly gets ignored (wether intentional or unintentional, busy slammed whatever) they take it personally and get their dander up. I would like a pair of Howlers.


I completely agree. Timely responses are very important. Thank you for the advice. I take it to heart. The tough part is scaling the company with like minded people and training everyone (including myself) that service really matters. Many companies have won and lost on service alone. I promise to improve the areas we fall short. ~Joe


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## jonterr (Mar 24, 2013)

So
I don't know either 1 of these guys!
But it did sound real sketchy!
I hope Joe gets an apology!
Nothin like somebody bashin your business, esp when it's b s !


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## Whiskey Angler (Mar 20, 2015)

Megalops said:


> He replaced with an overbuilt brand new Tiller Pillar (delivered no less) and is comping out $250 Costa's?? What am I missing here?
> 
> Joe, I will say this, please get your staff to respond in a more timely manner. Psychologists say one of the strongest human emotions is a feeling of self worth. When someone constantly gets ignored (wether intentional or unintentional, busy slammed whatever) they take it personally and get their dander up. I would like a pair of Howlers.





JoeWelbourn said:


> I completely agree. Timely responses are very important. Thank you for the advice. I take it to heart. The tough part is scaling the company with like minded people and training everyone (including myself) that service really matters. Many companies have won and lost on service alone. I promise to improve the areas we fall short. ~Joe


Hit the nail on the head! One of the toughest challenges of mgt., universally throughout just about any business, is empowering others and inspiring pride equal to your own. It seems as if Carbon Marine is on the up-&-up, and based on your excellent retort in your earlier post, I'm certain you'll overcome and continue your success! Keep on keepin' on!


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## southboundchicken (Aug 21, 2015)

Joe i havent seen any threats to your business other than to say based upon my observations of your customer relations skills i shall not be purchasing from carbon marine, if you take that as a threat then thats your prerogative , I will say that my brother has reached out to you numerous times as I have through email, Facebook and also to messaging of this form with no response so we are left with nothing else to do but to think that you are basically blowing us off and sad that we would have to resort to social media to resolve our differences when a man won't stand up and fulfill his obligation as he suggested he would do, your deals with your so-called vendors that Owe you have nothing to do with your customers there's a difference, had you said it may take a while orhad you just called and said hey I'm waiting for somebody it may take a few months we would have something to work with or had you just called and said hey I was drunk that night and overextended myself we can chalk that up as a drunken stupor but you left us with nothing.... I personally recommended your products to several people based on feedback i recieved on this forum so yes im taking this one kinda personal..... What you probably don't realize is that this could have turned into a product liability lawsuit fortunately the only thing lost was a pair of sunglasses and not injury or loss of life so from a business owner standpoint I hope you can appreciate the fact that this is basically turned into just a pair of sunglasses and nothing worse let's be thankful and as far as my personal business practices are concerned I have been in business for myself for the past 18 years,I do not advertise and I only have survived through word of mouth, customer referrals and repeat business so i know about customer service,,,,,,,,Joe, fulfill what you said you would do in a timely manner, conduct your business like you didnt need social media to keep you straight and you'll go far my good man. Thank you


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## southboundchicken (Aug 21, 2015)

jonterr said:


> So
> I don't know either 1 of these guys!
> But it did sound real sketchy!
> I hope Joe gets an apology!
> Nothin like somebody bashin your business, esp when it's b s !


Nothing b.s. About this situation bro


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## JoeWelbourn (Dec 11, 2006)

southboundchicken said:


> Joe i havent seen any threats to your business other than to say based upon my observations of your customer relations skills i shall not be purchasing from carbon marine, if you take that as a threat then thats your prerogative , I will say that my brother has reached out to you numerous times as I have through email, Facebook and also to messaging of this form with no response so we are left with nothing else to do but to think that you are basically blowing us off and sad that we would have to resort to social media to resolve our differences when a man won't stand up and fulfill his obligation as he suggested he would do, your deals with your so-called vendors that Owe you have nothing to do with your customers there's a difference, had you said it may take a while orhad you just called and said hey I'm waiting for somebody it may take a few months we would have something to work with or had you just called and said hey I was drunk that night and overextended myself we can chalk that up as a drunken stupor but you left us with nothing.... I personally recommended your products to several people based on feedback i recieved on this forum so yes im taking this one kinda personal..... What you probably don't realize is that this could have turned into a product liability lawsuit fortunately the only thing lost was a pair of sunglasses and not injury or loss of life so from a business owner standpoint I hope you can appreciate the fact that this is basically turned into just a pair of sunglasses and nothing worse let's be thankful and as far as my personal business practices are concerned I have been in business for myself for the past 18 years,I do not advertise and I only have survived through word of mouth, customer referrals and repeat business so i know about customer service,,,,,,,,Joe, fulfill what you said you would do in a timely manner, conduct your business like you didnt need social media to keep you straight and you'll go far my good man. Thank you


Thank you Sir. May the force be with you. Have a great day!


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## fjmaverick (Sep 18, 2015)

I can understand if it was you that was thrown... No one likes letting a tiller kick there ass that's embarrassing, but its kind of strange the OP wasnt even on the boat

I see the carbon marine paging mike threads often and they all end the same. He is very busy and usually pops up shortly but always handles things first class


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## jonterr (Mar 24, 2013)

There's a big difference in just cruising along and the handle falls off , vs , hitting something with the motor!
Just sayin!


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## westsidefly (Aug 15, 2014)

So this is over a pair of Costas? Really...?


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## southboundchicken (Aug 21, 2015)

jonterr said:


> There's a big difference in just cruising along and the handle falls off , vs , hitting something with the motor!
> Just sayin!


There was no damage to the motor or otherwise visible indication there was an obstruction in the water.... Quite simply appears to be a failure of the extension.... In a right hand sweep with a 25 2 stroke i can easily how a weak point would fail causing the operator to control..... For those of you who have kept up with this drama let me say that I'm sure Joe has had many success stories this one has fallen through the cracks I'm sure all I'm asking for Joe to do is keep his word and follow through with his obligation of what he committed himself to do.... As a reputable business man. End of story


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

southboundchicken said:


> Joe i havent seen any threats to your business other than to say based upon my observations of your customer relations skills i shall not be purchasing from carbon marine, if you take that as a threat then thats your prerogative , I will say that my brother has reached out to you numerous times as I have through email, Facebook and also to messaging of this form with no response so we are left with nothing else to do but to think that you are basically blowing us off and sad that we would have to resort to social media to resolve our differences when a man won't stand up and fulfill his obligation as he suggested he would do, your deals with your so-called vendors that Owe you have nothing to do with your customers there's a difference, had you said it may take a while orhad you just called and said hey I'm waiting for somebody it may take a few months we would have something to work with or had you just called and said hey I was drunk that night and overextended myself we can chalk that up as a drunken stupor but you left us with nothing.... I personally recommended your products to several people based on feedback i recieved on this forum so yes im taking this one kinda personal..... What you probably don't realize is that this could have turned into a product liability lawsuit fortunately the only thing lost was a pair of sunglasses and not injury or loss of life so from a business owner standpoint I hope you can appreciate the fact that this is basically turned into just a pair of sunglasses and nothing worse let's be thankful and as far as my personal business practices are concerned I have been in business for myself for the past 18 years,I do not advertise and I only have survived through word of mouth, customer referrals and repeat business so i know about customer service,,,,,,,,Joe, fulfill what you said you would do in a timely manner, conduct your business like you didnt need social media to keep you straight and you'll go far my good man. Thank you


Wow…that has to be one of the longest run-on sentence in the history of the interweb!


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

Was he running the tiller while standing up? This is one of the most dangerous situations for someone to put a younger passenger into, even though the operator may or may not be experienced. I ran a 25 with a CM tiller for 3 years. Never once had a issue. I also would refuse to drive WOT while standing with another passenger regardless of having a supportive grab rail. Call me over cautious, but it has always been my preference. Having overall control of your motor is fundamentally the first step towards boaters safety..


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## NewberryJeff (Dec 2, 2015)

southboundchicken said:


> There was no damage to the motor or otherwise visible indication there was an obstruction in the water.... Quite simply appears to be a failure of the extension.... In a right hand sweep with a 25 2 stroke i can easily how a weak point would fail causing the operator to control..... For those of you who have kept up with this drama let me say that I'm sure Joe has had many success stories this one has fallen through the cracks I'm sure all I'm asking for Joe to do is keep his word and follow through with his obligation of what he committed himself to do.... As a reputable business man. End of story


If the friction screw is set correctly, a tiller motor won't throw the occupants out of the boat if the tiller is released in a "slight turn." Hitting a submerged object will though.
There may not be much evidence of hitting an object, I have a new 20 hp that hit a submerged object in the Waccasassa river hard enough to shut the motor down and nearly throw me out of the seat. The way it felt and sounded, I expected to find devastating damage - just a scuff mark. The same motor hit something on the highway hard enough to kick the motor up and break the tilt-limit tabs on the motor mount - just a small nick in the skeg.

Having no memory or recall of the event in the absence of head trauma may point to a medical condition that might have caused the operator to lose consciousness momentarily (syncope).


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## NewberryJeff (Dec 2, 2015)

Lappy_16 said:


> Joe will bend over backwards for his customers and his customer service is as good as it ever was. That being said, he is involved in the production of his products almost every step of the way and I've seen first hand his phone ringing continuously throughout the day. It's not a large company where there are several people just answering phones and messages. Say what you want but it's good products from a good company, most people know that.


I'm one of those who people who know that.
When I had questions about a custom push pole, I emailed Joe on 6/11/15 2:25 AM, he responded on 6/11/15 @ 4:52 AM then twice more at 5:56 AM and 9:06 AM.
A couple phone calls later, both initiated by Joe, I was able to order the push pole built exactly as I wanted and delivered exactly when I wanted.


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## southboundchicken (Aug 21, 2015)

Net 30 said:


> Wow…that has to be one of the longest run-on sentence in the history of the interweb!


What are you some keyboard commando dude I'm typing on an iPhone not easy to do when Can hardly see the print and you fat finger every button on the display ......get a life buddy


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## jonterr (Mar 24, 2013)

End of story!


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## fishicaltherapist (Mar 9, 2013)

I detect "second hand smoke"  ANYONE who has BUILT a successful business with, MANY 20 hr days, knows and UNDERSTANDS that something will INEVITABLY go wrong. When the problem is addressed in a professional, courteous, caring manner,and the CUSTOMER is satisfied; BOTH parties benefit. THAT folks IS customer service. What Joe has done, is what customer service is ALL about !!! "Second hand smoke" should NOT be blown into people's faces of whom you know little or nothing about. KUDOS to you Joe !


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I'm surprised you are working him for a new pair of costa's for an event in which your brother admitted he didnt fully know what happened. Wonder what condition those Costa's were in. Shit happens sometimes and it sounds like Joe went out of his way to address the issue in detail.

Honestly the story sounds like it's omitting details, so the blame can be placed on one person or one component.
Something probably struck the lower unit, even a raised bit of sand, log, crab trap could redirect the motor without leaving any damage on the skeg depending on how it was hit. Another likely scenario is the torque tab is not adjusted properly creating an excessive amount of steering pressure on the tiller extension. Adding a 4 blade cupped prop can easily create enough steering torque to cause a scenario like this if the tab is not adjusted properly. A gentle turn could result into a violent turn if he were to lose his grip on the handle. One scenario is either negligent operation or bad luck depending on water clarity and depth, the other is operator error. There are many other factors that can also play into this. 

Poor form to blast a guy that has gone out of his way to resolve the issue. In my opinion even worse to stir all this up over a lost pair of sunglasses.


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