# Nightmare build could it happen to you?



## Hookasnook (May 23, 2020)

Hi guys just got through reading firecat1981 build of his Fs 17 2.0.Wow 2.5 years of one problem after another a man who was just trying to build a little better boat than his last one.Well I was already to purchase some plans and get started on my first boat build and the misfortunes of firecat1981 has stopped me in my tracks.I realize builds take longer for first timers but reading about his build has got me scared to death to go ahead.Please share with me stories of success on your first build to give me a little confidence.I was going to build a simple 16 ft. Skiff all glass and core material.The painting problems he had tells me there are so many variables.Do they make a simple good one part paint that will apply easy and hold up well over time? Please share your knowledge and ideas. Thanks (hookasnook)


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## Moonpie (May 12, 2020)

I think firecat1981 has done a great service to anyone contemplating a build. His thorough documentation and honest transparency provides a window into what can and will happen during a complicated project involving various materials.

If your dream is to build a skiff then you should absolutely do it. Thankfully builders like firecat1981 have put the time and effort into their build posts to help others.


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## Salty Dawg (Mar 10, 2020)

I use Petit Easypoxy on my restorations. One part and levels out nicely doing roll & tip. As with any paint, good surface preparation is the key to a nice finish.
A few examples of my own boats that I used and then sold when I had it's replacement done. All were over 30 years old.






































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## NativeBone (Aug 16, 2017)

Hookasnook said:


> Hi guys just got through reading firecat1981 build of his Fs 17 2.0.Wow 2.5 years of one problem after another a man who was just trying to build a little better boat than his last one.Well I was already to purchase some plans and get started on my first boat build and the misfortunes of firecat1981 has stopped me in my tracks.I realize builds take longer for first timers but reading about his build has got me scared to death to go ahead.Please share with me stories of success on your first build to give me a little confidence.I was going to build a simple 16 ft. Skiff all glass and core material.The painting problems he had tells me there are so many variables.Do they make a simple good one part paint that will apply easy and hold up well over time? Please share your knowledge and ideas. Thanks (hookasnook)


PATIENCE,PATIENCE,PATIENCE, is the key. Its not for the faint of heart OR for those that believe the project will be completed in record time. Its a great way to develop craftsmanship skills and appreciate your work afterwords. It also gives you a great appreciation as to why *repairs* and the cost to buy a hull is _*costly*_. 

You will run into bumps along the way, as everyone does when taking on this kind of challenge. 

I recommend first having a small boat/skiff onhand before building your boat. This will give you an outlet to fishing and hopefully help curve the appetite to rush with the build process. 

Then I recommend study/read material regarding the building process and then begin to ask questions to fill in the voids. Do all of these before buying the first gallon of resin.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Are you a person who likes long, tedious projects? If so, do it.

If you want to build a boat and get on the water ASAP, just buy a boat.

It will take most first time builders years to complete their first boats. 

You will run out of money along the way. You may move along the way. Life will screw you over along the way. You will mis-cut expensive plywood along the way. You will scrape uncured epoxy off your boat along the way. You will spray the ugliest paint job in history along the way. You will step away from the build in disgust for months on end along the way.

If you’ll keep coming back anyway, build a boat.

Nate


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## Hoang (Jul 27, 2018)

I never owned a boat and never thought I'd ever own one. Then one day thought it would be super cool to build a stitch and glue plywood skiff. Saltboatworks FRS-15 plans call out for 80-100 hours to build. Biggest project I have ever taken on. I spent 8 months and over 600 hours building mine out of my garage. No prior experience. No wood working skills. No glass skills. Some paint skills. Did modifications to it that the original design didn't have. Now I sit here and think about the accomplishment. It feels great. The boat ain't perfect but I built it the way I visualized it.

Don't give up. Keep working on it. Even if it's 30 minutes of work a day.


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## SeaDrifter (Apr 4, 2018)

I too went with a Salt Boatworks plan, their FRS-14. They are VERY straight forward and easy to follow being full size templates. I did modify mine a great deal and am almost finished (I started this past February). The absolute only setback I have experienced thus far has been my health. It's on the trailer now because TPWD called and bumped up my inspection date to this Thursday.


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## albrighty_then (Jan 11, 2017)

I started with a restore/build first. I made a lot of mistakes with glassing/cutting/routing etc but on this small build I was able to fix most. Point being I feel that when I start my beryllium build next year I'll have good ground to start with. Just a thought.


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## BrownDog (Jun 22, 2019)

If there is a must have design you want to build or have a craving for it to be "your" complete work, build. 
If not I highly suggest buying a good rebuild candidate and starting there. This will give you a lot of working experience with the materials and save some frustration not starting completely from the ground up. It also allows you to still make most personal changes along the way to the boat to meet your needs.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I am glad I am inspiring others! So much that they are making threads about my adventures. 

So where do I start? A few words of encouragement? A few of discouragement? A history in life lessons? How about just a bit of history in general?

Warning, this will be a long post.

So building the Plytanic 2.0 has been a mild disaster, but I am far from a beginner by now. I have been around boats, mostly smaller ones, since I was a youngin. I helped repair and paint a few here and there, but nothing major....
Flash back about 13 years ago. I finally have my own home and want a little boat. I found a cheap old gheenoe to fix up. Thought it was a good deal until I found out it was split completely down the keel, needed transom work, oh and the big one was it was coated with various paints. It had, from what I saw, original faded gelcoat, covered by cheap boat paint, covered by an antifouling paint, and covered by exterior house paint. It took weeks of grinding, sanding, glassing, and painting to make it all work ok. The whole time I told my wife I thought it would be easier to build one from scratch. It worked out, but at the end of the day it was a canoe hybrid and I wanted more of a boat.

It wasn't long after I found guys doing just that on Bateau, Microskiff, Youtube....
I decided to go for it. The first boat was a very simple design, and it worked great! I designed it myself, it was light, quick, floated in spit, and was fun. I made it out of 5mm luan from HD, Epoxy and 6oz woven cloth. It was called the TGIF (Thank God It Floats) and took a little more then 6 months to build. It was my first full build, a huge leaning curve, but fun too. I had her for about 6-7 months when we were hit from behind by an SUV doing 35mph. The damage was catastrophic, but I was able to patch it enough to finish the fishing tournament we were at. 
DSCF1751 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr

My second boat was more notable here. It was the Plytanic, another of my designs and took less then 6 months to build. It was a much more complicated design, and built much more heavy duty. I used meranti plywood for the exterior with epoxy, and a combo of biaxial and woven cloths. For now it's still my avatar pic. I retired this skiff a few months ago and gave it to a friend. It will live on for many years still. I beat the snot out of this boat! Beachings, smacking oyster bars, bay crossings, beach trips, camping trips, scalloping..... she took it all like a champ.

P1010100 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr

While using the Plytanic everyone seemed to be buying kayaks. I decided to build one of my own. It was a kayak/swamp canoe hybrid of sorts called Splinter Cell. It did not take long to build, maybe a few months, and was made out of cedar strips, epoxy and light cloth. It was pretty, but I quickly discovered that I did not like kayak fishing. When storing it became an issue I just cut it up.

P3180123 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr

So my family added a new addition and we wanted a bigger boat. More capacity, more power, better rough water ability.... But I didn't want to spend a long time on it because chasing the kids kept me busy. So I bought plans from Bateau instead of designing this time. I had admired many of their plans for years and been an active participant on their forum for a long time. I bought the FS17 plans thinking it would save me months of designing and guess work. I thought with plans and a material list I could take my time and still have it done in 6-8 months. Boy was I wrong, lol.

I bought what I thought was really good material. I had Okoume BS1088 plywood, MarineEpoxy, Biaxial cloth as specified...... More on that later.

Building Issues:

First was the plans themselves. I set up the strongback, but could never get the frames to line up right with the stringers, after weeks of playing with it I scrapped it all and started over. Using a lazer level and mdf this time I know things were right, but the stringers would never line up. I raised the sole 1 inch, but that shouldn't have mattered. After talking to other builder I found out they never got the stringers to line up well either, but just decided to keep going. Many of them now have issues with water draining forwards at rest, I won't because of how I designed mine myself. Also there was a big issue with the transom clamping board and knees. They were designed for a small portable motor, and not a larger outboard even though it was rated up to 50hp. This meant only 2 of the 4 clamp bolts would go through the thicker parts of the transom. 
When I brought up the issues I found I was near attacked on the other forum by diehards and the designer. I later proved my points and was apologized to. They said they would make changes in future plans, but have not yet.

Next, was the biggest surprise, the plywood was out of square! Who would think that $110 a sheet plywood would be cut off from the factory? I didn't find out till later, so ALL of my cuts were off. It took weeks of extra work to "fix" it. That said I still see plenty of waves in my gunnel edge and chines. I just had to move on.

Then came the epoxy. I was talked into buying MarineEpoxy. Many said it was a great product, and it was easier since I was already making a big plywood and glass order. It bubbled like crazy! Some little, and some big like a marble. After chasing down and eliminating things I decided the best course of action was to replace it and go back to FGCI's brand. Best thing I did, but pricey! No more bubbles, and more work time. When I brought it to the distributors attention I was again jumped on for suggesting their product was the problem.

The plywood in relation to the design was another issue. The frames on the jig are 3ft apart, way to far for the soft and flexible okoume plywood! The plywood sagged pretty bad in between the frames on the flatter parts. I think the stiffer meranti would have been fine. I also think it the frames were spaced only 2 ft apart it would easily solve any issues. Again my suggestions on the other forum were not well received.

Obviously the paint has been an issue. This was supposed to be a better build, so I wanted better paint. After a while I decided on interlux perfection. Problems arose when I found out you only have a week to use each kit after the cans are opened. So any repairs would cost a $90 kit each time. So I did some more poking around. The latest and greatest is EMC quantum. It's expensive but many guys liked it. I'm guessing they never tried to roll it. Super thin, and then I have the peeling issues... So now I am going back to my tried and true Interlux Brightside. Single stage paint that holds up fairly well for years. $100 got me a gallon. Not what I expected, but it's what I'm going with. 
I also switched primers midway after the distributor mislabeled the sterling primer as high build. They basically said oops.

There were many other little issues that came up. Some were self made like building the hatches. others were just minor annoyances like the trailer mods. I Consider what I have gone through to be abnormally challenging, especially for an experienced builder, but it goes to show you can have expectations go awry.

On to the future. Will I build another, most likely yes. I like building boats, but on my terms, so I may design them myself again, maybe. 

My suggestions to guys looking to build:

First do a test run to work on skills. There are many free stitch and glue plywood plans out there. Download a canoe, or little rowboat, and build it using Luan/underlaminate and BCX plywood. 

Second, once you get confidence in your skills start planning your next. Mainly forget plywood. So here's the thing, you will either keep it for years, or sell it to upgrade after a bit of use. Now I have loved and advocated wood for years, but will admit it does worry me at times, and I don't think about selling my boats, I either cut them up or give them away. Plywood seems to be going down in quality as the years press on, but composites like foam are getting cheaper and more readily available. Foam while taking more initial setup I think is more forgiving. No warped wood, no splintering, no checking, no rot... and better resale. I won't build another wood boat, unless it's for pure looks like cedar strip again.

Third. Look for a builder who actually builds! There are a lot of guys who are navel architects.... but many who never build any of their designs. You can look up all the info you want in regs and charts, but actual hands on experience counts for something to me. Especially in smaller boats where precision counts, a 1/4" mistake can add up to a lot of work later on. I'll use CM as an example, he knows what works because he was involved in building many boats. All of his designs now are variations on those originals, but he is still building them to show the process and make sure it works out. I'm sure there are others that have built there designs. If you absolutely fall in love with one and it hasn't been built it's not the end of the world, just know you might have to adjust as you go.

That's enough for now. Everyone who actually makes it to the end of this novel, you have earned you reading badge for the year.


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## Moonpie (May 12, 2020)

As you named your first boat TGIF (Thank God it Floats), I think we should help you come up with a name for this boat once it is completed. 

After learning that the plans were not correct, and that you were unfortunately sold subpar materials or mislabeled products, my vote goes to the name *Goat Rope.*


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Lol thanks, but I think I'm stick with Plytanic 2.0. Even have a few logos made up. When I build her replacement out of foam I'll think up another pun for it.


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## BassFlats (Nov 26, 2018)

Hookasnook you may want to start with an older project hull. These hulls can be purchased for a fraction of a new build. Yes it will probably need a transom ,stringers and floor job, but it will still be cheaper than a complete new built hull and much faster. You can design the layout of the interior to your needs.


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## Hookasnook (May 23, 2020)

Yes that is exactly what I am considering thanks to everyone for there imput.


BassFlats said:


> Hookasnook you may want to start with an older project hull. These hulls can be purchased for a fraction of a new build. Yes it will probably need a transom ,stringers and floor job, but it will still be cheaper than a complete new built hull and much faster. You can design the layout of the interior to your needs.


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## Sethsawyer (Apr 5, 2019)

I would do a stitch and glue or strip built canoe,kayak,or paddle board before doing a full build if you do not have a solid long term project success record. A well done canoe will pay for itself plus some if you sell after the build, and if it all goes to crap and you end up having to take a chain saw to it you are only out $600 or so. You will make mistakes on a small scale and cost and labor to fix those mistakes will be faster and cheaper. I built a stitch and glue paddle board learned a lot and then had the confidence to build a skiff.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

Hookasnook said:


> Do they make a simple good one part paint that will apply easy and hold up well over time? Please share your knowledge and ideas. Thanks (hookasnook)


"Durable" and "one-part" is an oxymoron. Buy a quality two-part and roll it, do it right.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

BassFlats said:


> Hookasnook you may want to start with an older project hull. These hulls can be purchased for a fraction of a new build. Yes it will probably need a transom ,stringers and floor job, but it will still be cheaper than a complete new built hull and much faster. You can design the layout of the interior to your needs.


Best advice you are going to get!


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Shallows said:


> "Durable" and "one-part" is an oxymoron. Buy a quality two-part and roll it, do it right.


Apparently you didn't see my build that inspired this thread. And as far as durability goes, yes a catalyzed paint will be harder, but the interlux brightsides held up well for about 9 years on my last skiff.


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## Chris Beutel (May 2, 2018)

Only build a boat if it is something you really want to do. The Beryllium is my 2nd build. I sit at a desk all day in front of a computer and really enjoy the escape of getting lost in building something. The first boat I built was a plywood stitch and glue Bateau FS12. My son and I built this together to give him something he and his friends can put in the creek and go fishing and exploring. I could have saved $2,500 bucks and a ton of time by just buying a jon boat! That said, it taught him and me that if you have the time and dedication you can build just about anything. I used Interlux Perfection on the FS12 and it turned out great. I am in the exploration phase of what I am going to paint the Beryllium with. You need to be patient and expect things will not turn out perfect. I have had several glassing issues on the Beryllium with the cloth pulling away from the inside radiuses, it's defeating when it happens but has been an easy fix, just takes some extra time. There have been a lot of guys on this forum and others that are willing to offer their help. Take them up on it! Travis Smith has donated his time and guidance and in turn I have helped him along the way and in doing so have developed a good friendship. Everything will take twice the amount of time you expect, that will be true with a rehab or a new build. I am getting faster with my techniques as I go along but I still always underestimate. Good luck with whatever you choose and if you enjoy the process you'll enjoy the build.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

I built a skiff with my 10 y/o in 2.5 months. It depends how complex what you are building is. Firecat's build has some intricate things he did that you can't even understand till you build one (or ten). He's a seasoned builder obviously and knew what he wanted and did it his way (IMO). I started with some plans and modified to what I wanted. You can do whatever you want. Everything you need to know is in the post Chris made. I learned everything from that post and what I didn't I asked James who was kind enough to answer. Reason being is I learned from some of the build threads on here, that you get a lot of advice from people who haven't actually done it. I knew James had done it and Chris has too and were actually experts. I would have np asking firecat either or a couple others. I think how long it takes is a choice and I always say APR when doing projects. APR means activity precedes results. When in doubt, just do stuff. If you make a mistake, its ok, it can be fixed. But forward momentum will get it done. Even a little at a time. Just do something, every day. I started small. Next time I won't make the mistakes I made this time. And the one after that will be even faster and better. When reading this post remember....I don't know anything. So it could and probably is all wrong. The adventure is in the journey.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

firecat1981 said:


> Apparently you didn't see my build that inspired this thread. And as far as durability goes, yes a catalyzed paint will be harder, but the interlux brightsides held up well for about 9 years on my last skiff.


I am sure Brightside is a decent paint as I have been very happy with Interlux products too - but why not just go with Perfection? It is such a better, more durable system. That is the only point I am trying to make.


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## Gogittum (May 24, 2020)

This might not be too popular, but here goes.....

I had a little plywood skiff some years ago that was some weather beaten and scuffed up. It was a neat little boat that I really enjoyed, so wanted to make it nice. I went onto a forum to ask about a high gloss roll and tip finish and a couple of guys told me straight out that it was a wooden boat and would be almost impossible to get perfectly smooth. The high gloss paint would amplify every imperfection.

To make a long story a bit shorter, based on their recommendations on that boat and several others since - utility boats all, I ended up using a semi-gloss latex porch paint and paid particular attention to surface prep and the primer. Good adhesion is absolutely necessary.

The several boats I've used porch paint on look very nice, tho' they aren't show boats and the paint wears like iron - it's designed for heavy use. Those who are experienced composite builders can go with their $100+ a gallon paint and the results will show the benefit of their experience and money. A beginner will have an awful time.

As has been said previously in many words, start simple, build a simple stitch and glue boat or restore a used boat and practice techniques....get some experience before tackling the tougher stuff. I've done both and I do "pretty good" now but wouldn't even attempt some of the fancier composite boats I've seen you guys build on this forum. I think I have the skills, but certainly not the endless, endless patience and nit-pickiness.

My 1st boat was a Phil Bolger design....uh....Sea Nymph, I think ?? 7'6" stitch and glue and it was an easy build. I've only ever used System 3 epoxy and it's been very good, with zero problems. Thing floated like a cork and was surprisingly stable and useful for such a tiny boat. High freeboard kept it pretty dry....and safe.

2nd was a Sam Devlin design Black Brant duck boat that I built for a friend. 30 years later he's still using it and beating the crap out of it....and loves it. (I did over-build it with his projected abuse in mind) Sam's plans and instructions are spot-on and very thorough. He was a pleasure to deal with and his boat was a great learning experience for me. I recommend him highly. The Black Brant (mine was the original 13 ft version) had several interesting and thoughtful design quirks that made a helluva boat out of it - e.g. it rowed "fairly" easily - it's a pretty heavy boat for oars - and drove well with a motor - both. How many of those have you seen ??


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Shallows said:


> I am sure Brightside is a decent paint as I have been very happy with Interlux products too - but why not just go with Perfection? It is such a better, more durable system. That is the only point I am trying to make.


I'll repeat, Apparently you didn't see my build that inspired this thread. I did try perfection, as I noted above a few posts ago. Problem is once you open a kit you have a week to use it before it gels. They don't tell you this in any of their info on purpose because less guys would buy it knowing that. So any additional work or repairs you do will need a $90 kit each time because they also don't sell the components separately. It's a once and done paint. And from what I'm seeing with the sanding it's a bit more durable, but nothing to write home about.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

firecat1981 said:


> I'll repeat, Apparently you didn't see my build that inspired this thread. I did try perfection, as I noted above a few posts ago. Problem is once you open a kit you have a week to use it before it gels. They don't tell you this in any of their info on purpose because less guys would buy it knowing that. So any additional work or repairs you do will need a $90 kit each time because they also don't sell the components separately. It's a once and done paint. And from what I'm seeing with the sanding it's a bit more durable, but nothing to write home about.


Okay, I tried to read some of your build thread - that does sound like a nighmare! So I understand where you are coming from with wanting a simple solution like the Brightside. One thing I would mention is that the 3M green tape is actually for sharp corners (you had mentioned it was for straight lines) - yellow is for straight lines - the green flexes too much so you don't want to use it for lines. I used both colors on my Perfection paint job and actually had no bleeding like you did, so not sure what the issue was there - but with painting there are so many things that can go wrong, thats how it always goes!


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I think you are mixing up a few things. The perfection did not bleed through the tape, the quantum did. No issues with getting sharp lines with the perfection, the issue came with wasting $180 worth of paint before their tech support would admit the kits need to be used immediately after opening. That makes it useless to me for most accounts.
The EMC quantum, which several guys told me they liked it better then awlcraft, was what bled through the tape. I think it was because of how thin it is, and the amount of solvent required. Either way the tape being solvent resistant should have held.
I don't think I mentioned the 3m tape being specific for corners or straight lines. I said "I bought what I thought was the best masking tape I could find. 3M automotive. The green kind for sharp lines that is solvent resistant." Sharp lines as in paint lines. It has plenty of flex, but after all this I doubt I have a straight line or edge left on this boat, lol.
I'm glad the perfection worked out for you, but I use my boat to much to deal with a basically irreparable coating. How do you deal with dock rash or oyster gouges? I had plenty on my last skiff.


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## dldsm7 (May 7, 2019)

I have seen a lot of successful builds on here, and honestly was contemplating just buying the beryllium plans with no experience (or general boat knowledge). I actually changed plans about two weeks ago.

It wasn't firecat1981 that made me second guess myself, it was the fact that I have never glassed anything before. To me, that is the 'scariest' part. I was going to go for a foam build, and I have done enough home renovation stuff to know how to 'fix' things to make it mostly right, or at least right enough.

So instead, I am going to build a SUP. Going to use basic home depot foam, but glass with multiple layers of 6oz and using epoxy resin. Figure this will give me experience glassing to see if I can do it. After that, I might step up to a 'refurb' job where I buy a boat that needs some interior fixing. If that goes well, I can use for a year then start a build after. 

Long process, but these builds can cost 10-15k depending on motor and trailer, so figure start small and work my way up...


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

dldsm7 said:


> I have seen a lot of successful builds on here, and honestly was contemplating just buying the beryllium plans with no experience (or general boat knowledge).


I would absolutely get more boat knowledge under your belt. If you are going to invest this much time into a build, you really want to know what is or isn't important to you. I'd argue that is equally as important as having the ability to build one -- it's just the same as knowing what options or hull you would go with if you were buying a new boat.


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## Bm77 (Jul 7, 2020)

Great


Hoang said:


> I never owned a boat and never thought I'd ever own one. Then one day thought it would be super cool to build a stitch and glue plywood skiff. Saltboatworks FRS-15 plans call out for 80-100 hours to build. Biggest project I have ever taken on. I spent 8 months and over 600 hours building mine out of my garage. No prior experience. No wood working skills. No glass skills. Some paint skills. Did modifications to it that the original design didn't have. Now I sit here and think about the accomplishment. It feels great. The boat ain't perfect but I built it the way I visualized it.
> 
> Don't give up. Keep working on it. Even if it's 30 minutes of work.
> 
> View attachment 144006


 boat. They sent you the plans and can it be built in a two car garage?


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## dldsm7 (May 7, 2019)

bryson said:


> I would absolutely get more boat knowledge under your belt. If you are going to invest this much time into a build, you really want to know what is or isn't important to you. I'd argue that is equally as important as having the ability to build one -- it's just the same as knowing what options or hull you would go with if you were buying a new boat.


Yes - I will say having a few friends with boats and me going out on their boats has made me somewhat aware of what I may want, but never captaining my own craft has made me aware that I know little of that side of things.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

There is *NO SUCH THING* as a nightmare build. There are only challenges and setbacks to overcome.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

firecat1981 said:


> The EMC quantum, which several guys told me they liked it better then awlcraft, was what bled through the tape. I think it was because of how thin it is, and the amount of solvent required. Either way the tape being solvent resistant should have held.


I've mainly used it with automotive body/paint - but the edges on that green just like to stretch and disfigure opening up loose areas on all your edges; yellow is really the way to go for 99% of your taping - I only use green for like sharp 90 degree turns, that sort of thing. I also would be afraid to use either one for actual two-tone edges, for that I think a dedicated Striping tape would be safer to be absolutely certain there is no bleeding.

Reading your build thread now and understand better why you went with Brightside! Makes total sense with so many hiccups and issues in that build - that EMC sounds absolutely horrible, can't believe the second coat wouldn't adhere to itself, just crazy - live and learn. Hope finishing it goes a little smoother for you.


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## Copahee Hound (Dec 21, 2017)

A few questions to ask yourself when considering to build/repair/restore your first boat...
Are you married? I mean, happily married???
Do you have children?
Would you rather be glassing and sanding or fishing?
Do you really have the free time needed to dedicate to finishing your project?
Do you have the means to just buy what you want and be done with it?

July 24, 2020 will be the one year mark for my project that I thought would be done in 6 months. Obviously, I miscalculated. There was some procrastination after demo, some problems gathering everything I needed to get started, and a lot of time reading on here and watching Youtube. 

Firecat isn't trying to scare you from building your dream, he is simply the only one on here admitting all of his fails. I believe I have only mentioned one fail during my build and that was incorrectly mixing a batch of resin. Believe me, there have been many fails...
Mixing more than one batch of resin wrong actually.
Tripping over an extension cord and spilling resin all over the garage floor.
Router bearings failing and grinding into expensive foam core where it wasn't supposed to.
Air bubbles... I lost count after the first week. Radius are hard to get correct the first time.
I've had to completely sand off a nights worth of glass and reglass MANY times.

Sanding isn't the worst part, though there is a lot of sanding, it's wearing a Tyvek suit, respirator, and gloves on a 100 degree day with no breeze and you're sweating like a wh*re in church. 

I had not heard of the Conchfish when I bought my project, but it sure would be nice to have directions of what I should be doing. Unless you buy plans from somewhere, your imagination is the only directions you have. If it wasn't for Boatbrains (R.I.P) telling me all that I needed and a layup schedule, I would have broken down and paid twice what the boat is worth to have a professional do it.

Not trying to give you nightmares, just highlighting some "challenges" I have encountered.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

Hoang said:


> I never owned a boat and never thought I'd ever own one. Then one day thought it would be super cool to build a stitch and glue plywood skiff. Saltboatworks FRS-15 plans call out for 80-100 hours to build. Biggest project I have ever taken on. I spent 8 months and over 600 hours building mine out of my garage. No prior experience. No wood working skills. No glass skills. Some paint skills. Did modifications to it that the original design didn't have. Now I sit here and think about the accomplishment. It feels great. The boat ain't perfect but I built it the way I visualized it.
> 
> Don't give up. Keep working on it. Even if it's 30 minutes of work.
> 
> View attachment 144006


Hoang, thats a really beautiful boat!


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## 7665 (Jun 9, 2014)

bryson said:


> I would absolutely get more boat knowledge under your belt. If you are going to invest this much time into a build, you really want to know what is or isn't important to you. I'd argue that is equally as important as having the ability to build one -- it's just the same as knowing what options or hull you would go with if you were buying a new boat.


 Totally. I’ve built a few wood kayaks and paddle boards, along with a lot of fabrication experience. I would not consider building a skiff without any experience. That being said, it’s not hard Just time consuming. Plan plan plan. I make lists like crazy and plan everything.


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## Hoang (Jul 27, 2018)

Bm77 said:


> Great
> 
> boat. They sent you the plans and can it be built in a two car garage?


Yep that's what I did and with basic tools.


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## Hoang (Jul 27, 2018)

Shallows said:


> Hoang, thats a really beautiful boat!


Thankyou!!!


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

If you are going to design your potential build yourself, it is imperative that you loft it full size. This will save you alot of grief later.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I spent a bit of time writing out reply's, but apparently it was as the system was switching over. So I'll try again, lol.



Shallows said:


> I've mainly used it with automotive body/paint - but the edges on that green just like to stretch and disfigure opening up loose areas on all your edges; yellow is really the way to go for 99% of your taping - I only use green for like sharp 90 degree turns, that sort of thing. I also would be afraid to use either one for actual two-tone edges, for that I think a dedicated Striping tape would be safer to be absolutely certain there is no bleeding.
> 
> Reading your build thread now and understand better why you went with Brightside! Makes total sense with so many hiccups and issues in that build - that EMC sounds absolutely horrible, can't believe the second coat wouldn't adhere to itself, just crazy - live and learn. Hope finishing it goes a little smoother for you.


Thanks, I hope it finished out a little better, but todays priming tells me maybe not so much, lol. I'll look into the yellow tape, but I think it's a bit to late. The EMC was definitely a disappointment, I don't know what went wrong, but I've spoken to a few other guys now who would not use it again either. 
It's been years since I've done a paint job on a car and back then the tape didn't come in fancy colors. I'll look into the yellow tape, but it's a little late in the game for it I'm afraid. 



Copahee Hound said:


> A few questions to ask yourself when considering to build/repair/restore your first boat...
> Are you married? I mean, happily married???
> Do you have children?
> Would you rather be glassing and sanding or fishing?
> ...


That is a good series of questions. Yes my builds have added stress to my marriage, but my wife is a saint. Yes, it has taken away to much time from my children, but I tried to minimize it by working while they are in school as best I could. Yes, I have barely fished in the last 3 years since starting this project, no bright side here it just sucks. That said, I'm looking forward to the next build. Build #5 and 6 will be done my way, and won't have as many issues, I hope.

No, I'm not trying to scare anyone. I have read literally hundreds of build threads and very few guys ever tell of their faults. They start the build, post a few pics, and then magically the boat is finished and perfect. Well I fancy myself an honest man, so If I screw up or run into an issue then you will hear about it! 



DuckNut said:


> There is *NO SUCH THING* as a nightmare build. There are only challenges and setbacks to overcome.


Have you been paying attention? I would say the OP is fairly spot on calling this a nightmare, lol. I do believe there comes a point where you need to make a risk benefit analysis on a project that has gone off course. Just like fixing up an old car and finding it's frame is rusted through, sometimes it makes better sense to start over. I would have cut bait on this project like I said earlier, and I'm still not happy with what will be the end results. 


ALL that said, do not look at my project as a typical build guys. This is a Murphy's law, broken mirror, ****** curse, split salt kinda deal here. My build is extremely abnormal! From factory defective plywood and epoxy, to incorrect plans not much has gone right, but most of it was not because of my error. The opposite is true of most builds, typically it's the builder missing a measurement, or mixing something wrong.
I don't know how my luck went so off track, but I promise most of you guys will not have near as many issues. Start small, learn your skills, grow your skills, then test your skills. Most of all, remember this is supposed to be fun, if you find that it is not, move on.


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## PropGunOne (May 27, 2018)

I haven’t built one yet (three so far) that hasn’t been walked away from for an extended period of time at some point. With the Sabalo12 it was glassing in the decks. With the SK14 it was, oddly, just a matter of grinding down flotation foam. With the Captive it was failure of the plug and a lack of inspiration.

In each case, once I became motivated, I knocked the projects out in a ridiculously fast span of time. The kayak took weeks, the SK14 maybe another month and I built, tested and painted the Captive in just under three months total.

To me it’s never the failures that kill a project, it’s the de-motivational aspect of them. You had a plan, it didn’t work, and then it‘s like... what’s the rush?


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Copahee Hound said:


> A few questions to ask yourself when considering to build/repair/restore your first boat...
> Are you married? I mean, happily married???
> Do you have children?
> Would you rather be glassing and sanding or fishing?
> ...


I guess BB’s wasn’t the A-hole I thought he was! 😂


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

firecat1981 said:


> I don't know how my luck went so off track, but I promise most of you guys will not have near as many issues. Start small, learn your skills, grow your skills, then test your skills. Most of all, remember this is supposed to be fun, if you find that it is not, move on.


Reading the build thread its really just an extremely intricate build, each one of those compartments is actually quintupling the square footage that you are painting/finishing/building trim for, etc. - I mean this build is like a micro noahs ark! Hope you are able to at lest enjoy it for a while, before the next build.

I'm curious, why don't the home boat builders simply use the initial stitched plywood hull as a mold to lay cloth onto with some release wax underneath? Then you could dump the wood after. Only mentioning this as you said earlier this will be your last wood build. Or, do any home plans offer the option to use Coosa or such?

Hope things pick up and move along faster - when I saw that post where you were hinting at relationship problems caused by a boat build - that is definitely a build gone off the rails!


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

@firecat1981

Yes, I have been paying attention and think there are semantics at work here.

You certainly had your share of challenges with your build. You say 5 will be your way and won't have the issues. Who's was this one? Was it not you who was in control of this build or was it someone else that we haven't been introduced too? I don't know what you are going to change to be trouble free on the next one but I certainly wish you smoother sailing than 2.0.

@PropGunOne has described it very well. He tried something completely unconventional with hopes of a quick build. But he quickly found out his method was not going to work and he changed course, took a breather, and pushed on to complete his project. He is correct in his observation that motivation plays a leading role in the completion of these projects. His positive attitude allowed him to build a really cool little skiff. Kudos.

One of the challenges we run into is what I call self inflicted. We try to shave a few minutes by cutting a step and it bites us in the azz causing many more hours of work. There have been many times I have caused self inflicted agony because I scoured the web for the perfect solution only to end up with information overload and ended with poor results and a new found negative outlook. I'm done with negativity and will stick with methods and products that I have used with good results. I'm done with listening to the web guys who have the greatest methods.

Mr. Morejohn built a boat in about 80 hours time. He used products he has used for years and did not try the latest greatest products or methods. He only did what he has been doing for years. Not much to go wrong when you have complete confidence in the products and methods.

2.0 was not your first build but I do want to ask, is it your first build where you were on 3-4 different forums asking for the "new" and "best" ways to build? Maybe all this was a contributing factor of overload. I can't answer this but watching your build there were what appeared to be outside influences which caused much of the agony.

So getting back on topic, stay with tried and true methods and if you buy someone's plans, follow the directions and instructions. The person who designed the plans has more experience than the person building from them and wants their builders to succeed and when finished to look back and see a rewarding experience.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Shallows said:


> I'm curious, why don't the home boat builders simply use the initial stitched plywood hull as a mold to lay cloth onto with some release wax underneath? Then you could dump the wood after. Only mentioning this as you said earlier this will be your last wood build. Or, do any home plans offer the option to use Coosa or such?


There are a few reasons. First expense. A cored hull uses much less glass and resin then a full glass hull, even after buying the core material you spend maybe half of what a full glass build would cost. Second is strength. A cored hull is typically much stronger then a thin glass build near the same weight. Third is weight, in order to get the same strength as a cored hull you need the glass to be much thicker, so the hull will weigh much more to get equivalent strength.

I've been building in wood because it was a good, strong, and cheap option for years. However foam is becoming cheaper and more readily available. With companies like Carbon Core selling sheets of composites for around $60 its hard to justify spending $110 a sheet on plywood these days. No rot issues, more pliable, easily shipped and cut, composite cores just make a lot of sense. They are much lighter too. Only downside is they need a bit more glass for puncture resistance, but ultimately will likely still weigh less in the end.


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## BassFlats (Nov 26, 2018)

Morejohn 80 hours= 160+ semi-skilled person hours. No wasted moves with that man.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

I had very few major missteps with my build when I was taking my time. I like to build things in my head many times before actually starting, which is a blessing and a curse. I tend to leave things unfinished because I feel like I've already figured out how I would want to do it, or I tend to stew on every possibility of how to do something rather than actually picking a direction to actually start moving. But -- this has helped me tremendously during my build. The only large issue I had was with the deck mold. Everything else (thankfully) went very smoothly.

I did keep it *very* simple, though. Like @DuckNut said -- I didn't want to try any new materials or any fancy manufacturing processes. I'm a mechanical engineer and while I love new tech, I am well aware of the trial and error with new-ish processes, or when adapting large-scale techniques to the hobbyist level. I also recognize the value of using proven methods, even if they aren't cutting-edge. So my boat was build in all e-glass, hand-laminated with epoxy. Some might call the techniques "old-school", but with epoxy resin and a good foam core, the end result is high quality and easily competitive with modern skiffs. I didn't want to tackle hatches or a floor. I had pages and pages of sketches trying to decide how I was going to tackle specific aspects of the build.

That's not to say there were no hold-ups. This boat probably took me twice as long as it would have taken someone with more fiberglass experience. I also made more/larger mistakes when I put myself on a deadline. I did the whole hull without any real timeline, just trying to maintain momentum. During that part, all my setbacks were relatively minor -- maybe I took longer than needed to knock out certain tasks, maybe I had to re-work something, maybe I had to waste some cloth and resin because something wouldn't lay down how I wanted. Headaches, but not nightmares. Next thing I knew I had a trip looming, and I did the whole deck in a sprint. I didn't wax the mold properly, and I added a little too much weight in some places when bonding, so now I will have additional fairing to do (which I was trying to avoid by making a mold). Still not nightmarish (well, maybe chiseling the mold off the deck was), but just examples of what can happen when you feel rushed.

Enough rambling -- I guess what I'm getting at is that the build will go much more smoothly if you slow down and enjoy the process. I got a lot of satisfaction out of lofting the plans and carefully cutting them with a jigsaw. I enjoyed the puzzle of how to make the stations completely parallel and level, without trusting any of the wood to be straight. I tried to be deliberate in each step, sometimes fighting the urge to move on to the next. Once I stopped doing that, I noticed I started making more mistakes. I stopped enjoying the process less and I got a little sick of working on it. The only time I ever thought to myself "I should have just bought a skiff" was during my sprint to get the skiff done before my trip. Now that my self-imposed deadline has passed, I'm looking forward to the last 5% of the build, the "finishing".

It's disgustingly trite and I am dying a little inside as I write this, but if you "focus on the journey rather than the destination", you will end up with a nicer end product and you'll enjoy the build more. Well, as long as you actually finish -- so maybe focus on the destination at least a little bit.


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## Pole Position (Apr 3, 2016)

BassFlats said:


> Morejohn 80 hours= 160+ semi-skilled person hours. No wasted moves with that man.


This. It will give you the glassing experience you want and probably a 100% return on materials if you want to sell it when you start the other build or be a damn good pass-it-down boat to some kids,etc. My only caution is sometimes I feel the pros estimate their time in dog hours.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

Pole Position said:


> This. It will give you the glassing experience you want and probably a 100% return on materials if you want to sell it when you start the other build or be a damn good pass-it-down boat to some kids,etc. My only caution is sometimes I feel the pros estimate their time in dog hours.


Yeah, and the 80 hours wasn't for the Beryllium, it was another cool little side project. I think he said the Beryllium was right around 600.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

DuckNut said:


> @firecat1981
> 
> Yes, I have been paying attention and think there are semantics at work here.
> 
> ...


Yes it was my build, but unlike my previous builds this was not my plan, method, or material choice. I tried to follow the designers recommendations. The jig, frames, stringers, bulkheads, lamination schedule (or lack there of), and glass specifications were mostly followed, and I found technical issues with everyone. On several issues I push on at the advise of the designer, only to kick myself later for not doing things as I would have. So I would very much say I was not in full command of this build as I thought I was getting, at least in the beginning, good direction from a guy who has designed hundreds of boats that there are literally thousands of builds already done out there. I'll detail all of my issues at the end of the build along with what I would do to fix them.

No this was not the first time I gathered information on new products before a build, what fool wouldn't. Things change, products advance, and new techniques or tools become known. Tried and true is great, but if all I wanted was a safe route I would have just bought a boat. Part of building is the fun of doing it, if it wasn't interesting and different then why bother. Should I not try foam core, or basalt cloth, because I haven't before? Should I not learn how to spray my next coating, or make a CM sander just because I didn't last time? Yes I had failures that steered me back towards what I knew worked, but no one should ever stop learning and gathering info.

As far as CM is concerned, yes that man can slap together a hull like no ones business, but he is also a professional. He has a warehouse to work in, tons of tools at his disposal, and extra hands on deck at times. He's also made dozens of similar hulls in the past. And as the designer builder it's easier to build something when you already visualize how parts really interact. Am I knocking him, absolutely not! He is iconic, and has shown us all a lot with both his techniques and designs, but even he looks for new materials and techniques, just like his adoption of basalt. That said, just cause you follow his plans closely doesn't mean you will have a boat on the water in 80 hours, but even at 160 hours you would be doing pretty good I think.


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## PropGunOne (May 27, 2018)

A SIGNIFICANT portion of any build comes in the form of sitting and staring for a guy/girl who hasn’t done it before. I wasted a lot of time just looking at the job at hand. Part of that was because I was trying to figure out a course of action, and a bigger part was just admiring my own work. Honestly, it’s fun to just watch it come together.

Where the pros excel is that they know exactly how they’re going to lay things out, how to get them cut and organized, and how to work to save themselves time later on. As an example... I should’ve faired the hull interior completely prior to adding in bulkheads and rod holders, but I didn’t. End result: about a dozen hours spent with a detail sander inside of a 19x15” hole, and unfinished glass under the gunnels.

But next time I’ll know how to run rod tubes, how to angle them, to fair rod holders ahead of time, to consider gel coating the interior instead of painting, where to lay high-density core, how to shape bulkheads, and so on.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

JC Designs said:


> I guess BB’s wasn’t the A-hole I thought he was! 😂


Ahh, yes. Yes he is!


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

DuckNut said:


> Ahh, yes. Yes he is!


Now you’re just fishin’ for likes! 🤣


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## jonny (May 1, 2007)

Salty Dawg said:


> I use Petit Easypoxy on my restorations. One part and levels out nicely doing roll & tip. As with any paint, good surface preparation is the key to a nice finish.
> A few examples of my own boats that I used and then sold when I had it's replacement done. All were over 30 years old.
> View attachment 143980
> 
> ...


X2 on Petit epoxy. I used for the first time about a year ago. Flows out nice rolling and brushing. But this was on the interior. No experience as exterior finish


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

jonny said:


> X2 on Petit epoxy. I used for the first time about a year ago. Flows out nice rolling and brushing. But this was on the interior. No experience as exterior finish


Just an FYI for anyone looking at paint options. Alexseal is coming out with a “rolling” reducer for the diy folks that may revolutionize this side of the industry. No tipping required!


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

For there sake I hope it works better then quantum's no tip formula.


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