# What's your biggest problem with fly rods and the fly rod industry?



## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

Hey all,

Random question for you.

What is your biggest complaint or problem with the fly rod industry? Anything that you see companies (in general, not specific names of companies) doing, that drives you crazy, that you wish they would change. Could be price related, product or component related, customer service or customer relationship related, etc.

Just curious what would really wow you to see a company doing differently, vs the status quo of what everyone else is doing?

Just FYI, I do build fly rods, and I'm always thinking about customer problems and how to solve those problems for them...so I thought I'd throw this out there and see where the discussion goes.


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## Emerald Shiner (Dec 26, 2017)

Line weights are totally random. Every rod manufacturer should just give a grain window and line manufacturers should simply weigh their lines. I refuse to buy a line unless the grain weight is given. Also, Rio can suck it. Last 3 lines of theirs I had lasted a total of 4 months.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

I have only been fly fishing for about 3 years, so take this with a grain of salt. I guess it's mostly centered around the driving factors of the cost of a rod.

Expensive rods almost always have nice hardware (guides/seat/cork) and a high quality finish. They are also almost always very light, and often very fast.

I would be curious to see if it would be worthwhile for a company to build a rod on a cheaper blank, but with higher end hardware. My uninformed guess is that it may end up being a reasonably priced rod that lasts a lifetime, at the expense of a small amount of weight.

I completely understand the cost of higher quality hardware and finish, but I think the hype over ultra-light/ultra-fast fly rods and reels is kind of strange. I don't think that it's really the weight of the rod or reel that wears you out, it's the balance (or lack of) and the weight of the line. I think that between a heavy, $80 8wt combo and a light, $1500 10wt combo, the 8wt will still be easier for me to throw (all other things being equal).

Obviously weight isn't the main thing that makes the price go up, I just think the amount of attention devoted to it is interesting. Super light, fast, high end rods always just seem like they are more prone to break. It may just be my perception that lighter, thinner, and stiffer = less durable, or more brittle, but who knows.

Or, I might just need to stop rambling and get into building my own rods.


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

Emerald Shiner said:


> Line weights are totally random. Every rod manufacturer should just give a grain window and line manufacturers should simply weigh their lines. I refuse to buy a line unless the grain weight is given. Also, Rio can suck it. Last 3 lines of theirs I had lasted a total of 4 months.


When I originally posted this, I was thinking "fly rods" but I completely agree with you on the fly line rating thing. That's a whole can of worms that could be opened concerning rods that are too fast for the average caster and the line companies feeling the need to up-weight their lines because of it. 

Nothing wrong with 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 wt heavier lines, but I agree that should be plainly stated for the customer to see. When I started building rods, I wanted a rod taper that cast best for the average caster using a line that matched it's weight, not one over-weighted. I like the idea of rod companies denoting what grain weight windows work best with their rods, and educating the customer on how to purchase a proper line for that rod. Obviously every caster is different in their preferences, but a recommendation from the manufacturer would be nice. Could possibly cut down on the customer having to purchase multiple lines before they found one that suited them.


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

bryson said:


> I have only been fly fishing for about 3 years, so take this with a grain of salt. I guess it's mostly centered around the driving factors of the cost of a rod.
> 
> Expensive rods almost always have nice hardware (guides/seat/cork) and a high quality finish. They are also almost always very light, and often very fast.
> 
> ...


Bryson, I think you may be more "on target" than you are giving yourself credit for. I think there is a very valuable thought in the idea of using low to mid price blanks and outfitting them with the top end hardware of very high end rods. Getting the price down to the $350-450 range with components that will last a lifetime of heavy use in the salt. It's something that I've had in my mind for a while. 

The highest performance (and cost) blanks are probably on average a bit lighter than the cheaper ones, and they should also be more accurate and have a quicker recovery. Being higher modulus, they usually are more likely to meet their demise due to user error (whacked by lead eyes, stepped on, or stuck in a ceiling fan), but they shouldn't be any more likely to break while properly fighting fish.

A lot of people really factor the weight of a rod into their purchase. They'll choose a 3.5oz rod over a 4.0oz rod, only to slap on a 12oz reel and a couple ounces of fly line. You're absolutely right about it being all about the balance, finding the right weight reel to complement your rod. I would say that the one part of the rod where weight really comes into play is the tip section and possibly the upper middle section. The more weight (guides, thread and epoxy) put on those sections, the more you slow down the recovery time of the rod and the more it effects the cast.

Sometimes I think it's the the race to build the latest and greatest (fastest) new fly rod (like the newest iphone) that leaves the angler on the losing end.

Thanks, I really appreciate and agree with your thoughts.


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## Emerald Shiner (Dec 26, 2017)

johnmauser said:


> Bryson, I think you may be more "on target" than you are giving yourself credit for. I think there is a very valuable thought in the idea of using low to mid price blanks and outfitting them with the top end hardware of very high end rods. Getting the price down to the $350-450 range with components that will last a lifetime of heavy use in the salt. It's something that I've had in my mind for a while.
> 
> The highest performance (and cost) blanks are probably on average a bit lighter than the cheaper ones, and they should also be more accurate and have a quicker recovery. Being higher modulus, they usually are more likely to meet their demise due to user error (whacked by lead eyes, stepped on, or stuck in a ceiling fan), but they shouldn't be any more likely to break while properly fighting fish.
> 
> ...


I do exactly what you’re saying. I build custom rods on St. Croix Imperial blanks. They are awesome and have a lifetime warranty. I build the handles out of laminated birch bark, leather, and hardwood spacers. Extremely sensitive to vibration, 10X more durable than cork, and the entire handle flexes with the blank. Check out my website for details and more pics!https://doorcountyonthefly.com/


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

Emerald Shiner said:


> View attachment 33992
> 
> 
> I do exactly what you’re saying. I build custom rods on St. Croix Imperial blanks. They are awesome and have a lifetime warranty. I build the handles out of laminated birch bark, leather, and hardwood spacers. Extremely sensitive to vibration, 10X more durable than cork, and the entire handle flexes with the blank. Check out my website for details and more pics!https://doorcountyonthefly.com/


Cool rods!


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

I could write a litany of this subject but I'll give you the short version. My pet peeve is the price of fly lines. I know for a fact how much they actually cost to be produced. The mark up is insane. I get they have to fund the R&D (I worked in R&D for a good while so I get this) but they make a butt load of money off fly lines. Way more so than fly rods, on a percentage basis.

At least when I go buy an overpriced fly rod (and yes they are stupid expensive too) at least I go home with something to hold and fondle p). But i spend a $100 on a fly line and I get home and its like sheesh where's the beef.


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## AgAngler2370 (May 5, 2017)

I think Bryson is on to something. I know my rod is more capable then I am in a lot of situations. I equate it to buying a high performance sports car for a daily driver, nice to know it can go fast but there is a speed limit that negates a lot of the performance you pay for. A fast action rod with the quality components but maybe not the super car of a blank would let the consumer choose where they want their value.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Agreed, list the ideal grain weights on the rod label rather than just listing 8wt or 9 wt.


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## G McC (May 16, 2018)

I agree the lines are what bothers me the most, both the price and the whole outdated weight standard thing. It sucks to drop that much money on a line and have to hope it works out. I'm lucky to be close to two good fly shops but they don't have demos of every line in every weight. I wish rod manufacturers provided a grain weight range based on the entire head and line companies provided all that info. Recently bought a new line without knowing it was a full line weight over standard and now it slows down that fast new fly rod I over paid for.


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## Rick hambric (Jun 24, 2017)

Price and weights of fly lines. They should print the 20, 30, 40, 50, & 60 ft weights of all lines.


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

Changes in warranty policies. Where once guarantees covered everything including breaking in a screen door for example and justified the high price where now warranties are limited and Ross cost even more. Rediculous! Frankly I like older rods for most manufacturers


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## Seymour fish (May 13, 2018)

Emerald Shiner said:


> Line weights are totally random. Every rod manufacturer should just give a grain window and line manufacturers should simply weigh their lines. I refuse to buy a line unless the grain weight is given. Also, Rio can suck it. Last 3 lines of theirs I had lasted a total of 4 months.


Agree Rio can suck it deep. Sticky. Also, over-proliferation of unnecessary specialty lines seem made for folks who can’t cast. And that tropical punch line is the epitome-can’t find any viable use for it. Also, there has been no need to improve fly rods since the Loomis GLX, as it is all you need. Still have a pair from about ‘92 that I use every day


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## Pierson (Mar 16, 2016)

1. Every multi-piece rod ever made should have a rod tube. You hear me TFO???

2. Unlike expensive braided lines, I cant buy a 1500 yard spool of fly line to save money. Fly lines should be half the price. OR For $100 I would like 2 spools please. Thank you!

3. @bryson nailed it! Put the good shit on every saltwater rod! The sage Motive is a good example of this, although they raised the price of it so it inst really a "cheaper rod" anymore. I understand that a high end company wouldn't do this, or they would sell less of their high end rods. But I can see a new company building their whole model around it. Can you imagine if every TFO rod had the Sage/Loomis hardware and finish? You could add that extra $50 to the price and you have yourself an heirloom quality rod for under $400 that still casts great. Just as long as you throw in a rod tube, RIGHT TFO???


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## AMiller (Mar 12, 2018)

John let me jump in on this. While most of the beef seems to be with fly lines themselves, I believe the other 1/2 of the blame lands squarely on the shoulders of the fly rod crafter, be it custom rod builders or big companies. Obviously a 1000 factors go into how well a particular rod will cast a particular line, but when a company is developing a rod there's a lot of research that goes in. Well what line or lines are they using?! And once its all said and done they print a little 6 or 7 or 8 on it and that's gospel? Hardly.
I've built rods on 6wt blanks that cast much better when paired with 7 or 8 weight. Who decided that blank was a 6? More needs to be done in the realm of pairing.
If you get around wine nuts they will tell you that a certain wine pairs well with a certain cheese, well I don't know diddly about wine, but I can tell you which beer to get with that burger. The same idea should go into fly rods. If you're going to sell me a Mauser Rod, I want to know what lines you've thrown on it and what preformed the best in what conditions. I may choose to go a different route if I'm the know-it-all type of customer but at least I was informed when I made my purchase.
Grain weights would be nice. Spey and switch rods already use them primarily, what's taking the single handed crowd so long to get in line? No pun intended.
Holler at me if you want somebody to pole you around, that is when your not wrapping rods.


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## YnR (Feb 16, 2015)

Price of fly rods is insane. We’re to blame though. We keep paying so the manufacturers keep bumping the price.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Disclaimer: I'm an idiot and probably don't know what I'm talking about. The problem I see is that according to the industry you need a flyrod that costs nearly $1000 to fish. The way I see it, you have several companies basically swindling rich old guys out of a lot of money for rods that they will never be able to get the most out of anyway. I couldn't cast any better with the newest Helios than I could with an old TFO, but at least I'll admit it. I'd like to see more slower action rods with good hardware for a decent price. (This is how I cope internally; I really can't afford the Orvis but it feels good to tell myself all this).


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## GullsGoneWild (Dec 16, 2014)

$


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

This reminds me of a conversation I had at work one day before I retired. A guy was asking my about a new Abel I had just gotten to go with a Sage Xi3. So as the conversation "evolved" as these things always do, one of the non fly fishing guys sitting with us asked me just how much this new outfit cost me. So I told him "in the area of $1500." So the guy just about flips out. Why in the heck do you pay so much "just for a fishing outfit." Blah blah blah. Well like any good discussion at work the non fisherman all jumped in. AND then the shoe dropped. One of the guys (who doesn't have any real outside interests) said:

John, how much is that new road bike you got? Wasn't it over $5000?
Rick, how much was that new snowboard you got? Wasn't it like $500 and didn't you pay $1000 for your ski pass to ski on National Forest land?
Cindy, how much was that set of golf clubs you just got? Weren't they like $700.

It was awesome and you could have heard a pin drop when they all realized how stupid they looked. Point is its not just us flyfishers who have expensive hobbies. Some of us like to have high end stuff (for whatever reason) and some guys have just as much fun for them with low end stuff. Its all a matter of perspective and the only one that matters is each owns!

Now here is what really frosts me. A guy bashes me for my $1500 outfit saying he can do everything I can with his $400 outift as he drives his $60K diesel down the highway to go fishing. LOL


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

ifsteve said:


> This reminds me of a conversation I had at work one day before I retired. A guy was asking my about a new Abel I had just gotten to go with a Sage Xi3. So as the conversation "evolved" as these things always do, one of the non fly fishing guys sitting with us asked me just how much this new outfit cost me. So I told him "in the area of $1500." So the guy just about flips out. Why in the heck do you pay so much "just for a fishing outfit." Blah blah blah. Well like any good discussion at work the non fisherman all jumped in. AND then the shoe dropped. One of the guys (who doesn't have any real outside interests) said:
> 
> John, how much is that new road bike you got? Wasn't it over $5000?
> Rick, how much was that new snowboard you got? Wasn't it like $500 and didn't you pay $1000 for your ski pass to ski on National Forest land?
> ...


That's a really good point!


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## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

I will preface my comments as I am guy that likes nice reels, but I don't go to lavish on my rods, most of mine were bought as clearance sales, used, or some other discounted avenue mainly because I feel they are so over priced. I prolly have 15-20 rods that span from 1940's bamboo to current. Usually when I get a rod I cycle through a bunch of lines that I or friends have and then I fish it and usually keep it for good.

Manufacturer's constantly coming out with some many new models and not retaining enough of the old models for warranty repair drives me nuts. I have a good number of pre-sage redington's that whenever they meet their demise I know I am probably not going to be happy with the replacement since these older rods had high end components and finishes and were very light.

Case in point new sage models. I really liked a friends 8wt One, and thought about picking one up as they were being phased out until I found out that within a year or so I wouldn't have the option of replacing it or getting it repaired if it were to break.

TFO does a pretty good job with their warranty and maintaining a good backlog of repair parts.

I also agree with the other on published grain weights for rods and what tapers they were designed around. Grain weight of the head is how I determine most of my flyline purchases and it would be great if I could apply the same to my rods. 

1000-1200 dollar rods seem ludicrous to me, but hey whatever floats your boat.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

YnR said:


> Price of fly rods is insane. We’re to blame though. We keep paying so the manufacturers keep bumping the price.


What bugs me most is the planned obsolescence that leads to the price inflation.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

I'm going to go with the fake "reviews". It really hurts new people to the sport. They get duped into getting chinese junk and "great warranties". They are left holding the bag when they took off work, prepared their boat and gear, saw the fish of a lifetime, and had to go home because the POS broke.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

K3anderson said:


> I'm going to go with the fake "reviews". It really hurts new people to the sport. They get duped into getting chinese junk and "great warranties". They are left holding the bag when they took off work, prepared their boat and gear, saw the fish of a lifetime, and had to go home because the POS broke.


I came from the buy once cry once mold.....lol


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

ifsteve said:


> My pet peeve is the price of fly lines. I know for a fact how much they actually cost to be produced. The mark up is insane.


 True, this is an excellent one too.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

K3anderson said:


> I'm going to go with the fake "reviews".


Yeah...I read those Yellowstone reviews early on myself, before I realized I wasn't part of their target demographic since I actually live near the salt.


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## Pierson (Mar 16, 2016)

crboggs said:


> Yeah...I read those Yellowstone reviews early on myself, before I realized I wasn't part of their target demographic since I actually live near the salt.


Guilty.....


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## carpnasty (Apr 11, 2018)

My problem with rods is that i don't have enough of them!

I'm with you guys on the fly lines, particularly the Rio statement. Have had a couple crack on me after very short use. 

As for rods, i generally find myself buying more and more used gear. How many setups do you guys own that are like new? If you sold that on ebay or these forums it'd fetch a used price but someone would essentially be buying a new rod for like 50% of original cost - that guy is me


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

AMiller said:


> John let me jump in on this. While most of the beef seems to be with fly lines themselves, I believe the other 1/2 of the blame lands squarely on the shoulders of the fly rod crafter, be it custom rod builders or big companies. Obviously a 1000 factors go into how well a particular rod will cast a particular line, but when a company is developing a rod there's a lot of research that goes in. Well what line or lines are they using?! And once its all said and done they print a little 6 or 7 or 8 on it and that's gospel? Hardly.
> I've built rods on 6wt blanks that cast much better when paired with 7 or 8 weight. Who decided that blank was a 6? More needs to be done in the realm of pairing.
> If you get around wine nuts they will tell you that a certain wine pairs well with a certain cheese, well I don't know diddly about wine, but I can tell you which beer to get with that burger. The same idea should go into fly rods. If you're going to sell me a Mauser Rod, I want to know what lines you've thrown on it and what preformed the best in what conditions. I may choose to go a different route if I'm the know-it-all type of customer but at least I was informed when I made my purchase.
> Grain weights would be nice. Spey and switch rods already use them primarily, what's taking the single handed crowd so long to get in line? No pun intended.
> Holler at me if you want somebody to pole you around, that is when your not wrapping rods.


Absolutely agree, and I'm taking every reply into account. A few thoughts:
1) As a manufacturer trying to make a difference, it is my job to fix the current issues anglers have with these products.
2) It is not my job to assume what angler's gripes are, which is why I am asking for input. I feel like it's a pretty good business model, to ask anglers what their issues are with a certain type of product, and then try to build a product that resolves those issues.
3) Pole me around... gosh, I think I've already forgotten what it's like to stand on the pointy end of a skiff, I appreciate the offer!
4) Sci Ang Amplitude MPX


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

Hey everyone, 

Thanks so much for taking the time to provide some quality input. I wasn't sure how this would go, but I got a lot of good feedback. I definitely like the idea of advertising grain weight windows for every rod model and size. It would take some work and thought on how to approach it, as I can take an 8wt and happily throw a 210 gr floating line and then turn around and load and launch a 400gr sinker with the same rod...but definitely something to consider.


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## AgAngler2370 (May 5, 2017)

I know I’m probably going to get crucified but i’d actually be interested in having an option for a synthetic Winn grip on a nicer rod. Fished a buddies Redington Vapen and liked the grip just not the rod. Didn’t seem like you had as many issues with a synthetic grip as cork getting soiled and filler coming out. Might be a cool thing to have.


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## AMiller (Mar 12, 2018)

johnmauser said:


> Absolutely agree, and I'm taking every reply into account. A few thoughts:
> 1) As a manufacturer trying to make a difference, it is my job to fix the current issues anglers have with these products.
> 2) It is not my job to assume what angler's gripes are, which is why I am asking for input. I feel like it's a pretty good business model, to ask anglers what their issues are with a certain type of product, and then try to build a product that resolves those issues.
> 3) Pole me around... gosh, I think I've already forgotten what it's like to stand on the pointy end of a skiff, I appreciate the offer!
> 4) Sci Ang Amplitude MPX


I'm in MHC, you've got my number. Let's go!



AgAngler2370 said:


> I know I’m probably going to get crucified but i’d actually be interested in having an option for a synthetic Winn grip on a nicer rod. Fished a buddies Redington Vapen and liked the grip just not the rod. Didn’t seem like you had as many issues with a synthetic grip as cork getting soiled and filler coming out. Might be a cool thing to have.


You might want to consider custom rods. Most custom builders can get blanks from higher end rod companies, sage etc. Then you could get what you want on the blank you want. Not all custom builders charge an arm and a leg either, contrary to popular belief.


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## BM_Barrelcooker (May 4, 2011)

Here is my take. 

Years ago I fished bass tournaments with conventional gear. I started in high school and by the time I was out of college and married roughly 8-10 years, the technology on the lower end of the price range was better than what the best stuff was when I started. I generally tried to stay right in the middle of the price range and never suffered. 

It’s kind of like “ the flyshop sells flies that catch the fisherman’s eye.....the fish are far less picky or proud” 

So as the latest and greatest is out there and would be real sexy to have in the boat I generally find one that compensated for the faults in my cast and stick with it. 

My only other gripe is that a certain rod manufacturer puts the hook keeper on the lower weight rods and doesn’t on the larger rods of the same model . Yes I know the 
reason but it still bugs me


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## k-roc (Feb 8, 2018)

Scientific Anglers is pretty cool for being honest about line weights. For example they state that the Grand Slam is 3/4 of a line weight heavy, the Titan is a full two line weights heavy, the MPX is a half line heavy...
What's funny about the Titan is that you buy it so that you can turn over big flies, and you think that SA has a new awesome taper to do this with, but it turns it's a standard taper, just two lines heavier. I guess if you were told to buy a 10 wt. line for your 8 wt., you would find it weird, but you buy an 8 wt. Titan no problem. Clever marketing.


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## RaspberryPatch (Dec 17, 2016)

1. Industry focus on stiff rods is a a major concern
2. Greater availability from the OEMs on blanks - looking at Scott 

The usual messages above are expected, id est the cost. I have my doubts on the R&D justification would hold true under scrutiny, but I am moving on as I cannot prove this. And for fly lines, I prefer Airflo (or Guideline 3D) when-ever I can against RIO, et cetera ....

Until recently, I was very happy to keep with GL3 and the original Scott G (3,4,5 and a 10' 7wt). My old Loomis and Scott still serve me well, and I really do not think I missed any fish because I had not updated in 20+ years. Tried other rods, but I dislike the stiff tips so common, driving heavy lines. So in the last decade, I have acquired an occasional rod, either a spey rod (Meiser, Burkheimer), or a slower (fibreglass/bamboo) for trout.

The exception is a custom made (me) Sage ESN for French Leader fishing (I prefer streamer, but my wife prefers close combat) when we fish our pocket water for trout.

Has anything changed recently? Yes, I am liking some of the fast recovery rods out there - namely the Scott Meridian. I can generate a little more high line speed without the old stiff tip and feel the line-rod load.

So since the GL3 to recent, I have cared little for most SH production rods.

I - we still (my wife and I) - still like my 20+ year Fenwick too. It is not being old and grumpy, just I did not see what a why anything newer was better - id est make, my day better or could help me fish better.

I believe we place to much emphasis on weight.

I dislike the price of lines, but this is not a major point now. Matching line to rod is not just about the rod, it is about the rod and person; and given I now have a diverse collection of lines, to match my rods (from 2wt Kabuto fiberglass to a Scott 12wt), the expenditures are infrequent.

When, I am fishing for salt or steelhead, I do like reels that have sealed drag, large arbour and I can palm, but there is too much noise on light reels.

So now in my 20+ fly fishing journey, my shifts have been

* 2pc to 4pc (I have a couple 5pc for fitting in luggage). My first 4pc was the 7wt GL3, then Scott Gs
* large arbour reels, after some steelhead kick my butt. At th time, what was available were the Loop 2W and 3W
* Spey added into my armour and 3D Scandi Lines
* Sealed Drag Reels

The only equipment that I have really (almost) retired was some older reels. like the SA System 2.


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

Everybody I fish with in saltwater is at least as good as me and vast majority are better. I have never taken another anglers rod and cast it and said this sucks, point being I believe it takes some experience and time to match lines to rods. I like the rio redfish on my s4s also like the rio flatspro on glx crosscurrent. Cost of rods is honestly my biggest gripe. I save money by buying quality rods very slightly used or taking advantage of sales and an occasional friend sharing a pro deal.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

johnmauser said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Random question for you.
> 
> ...


Definitely a loaded question.

You are asking for a rod mfg, I presume.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Backwater said:


> Definitely a loaded question.
> 
> You are asking for a rod mfg, I presume.


Ted, he is asking for a rod mfg....himself.


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## Str8-Six (Jul 6, 2015)

Price of lines and the fact that you can’t really try them before you buy. I’m sure it’s been done but I would really like a fly shop to keep demo lines on hand to try out on your rod first. The only line I’ve really liked is the SA Bonefish. I won’t buy Rio again.


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## mtgreenheads (May 20, 2014)

Cost. Period.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Str8-Six said:


> Price of lines and the fact that you can’t really try them before you buy. I’m sure it’s been done but I would really like a fly shop to keep demo lines on hand to try out on your rod first. The only line I’ve really liked is the SA Bonefish. I won’t buy Rio again.


Its a nice idea but impossible to actually do. There are so many brands of fly lines and so many specific lines within a brand that there are literally thousands of combinations. Just as an example lets look at a 'redfish line".

RIO - has winter redfish, summer redfish, bonefish, summer bonefish, direct core flats pro. So that's five lines. Now lets say you want a decent line weight spread so maybe 6, 8, and 10. So that is 15 fly lines just for one brand for one species (and sure some of these same lines are also good for other flats species like bonefish) but you get the point.

Now that said my local shop does carry one general type line in most line weights so you can at least try a rod. Its not perfect but its a start. But not a chance they have lines to actually try fly lines.


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

ifsteve said:


> Ted, he is asking for a rod mfg....himself.


Steve and Ted, yes exactly, asking for myself. I do have a new rod company and we have had our first series of rods out since last year. I am not here to advertise or promote my company as I am not a forum sponsor. I was legitimately wondering what other anglers on this forum had as their biggest gripes with current fly rods. I have my own gripes, but I wanted to see what other issues would come up. The whole point of a business is to solve your customers problems, so as we are developing our second family of rods, I want feedback on things that bother anglers about their current selection of rods.


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

John, What's the name of your company? I'd like to check it out.


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## Str8-Six (Jul 6, 2015)

ifsteve said:


> Its a nice idea but impossible to actually do. There are so many brands of fly lines and so many specific lines within a brand that there are literally thousands of combinations. Just as an example lets look at a 'redfish line".
> 
> RIO - has winter redfish, summer redfish, bonefish, summer bonefish, direct core flats pro. So that's five lines. Now lets say you want a decent line weight spread so maybe 6, 8, and 10. So that is 15 fly lines just for one brand for one species (and sure some of these same lines are also good for other flats species like bonefish) but you get the point.
> 
> Now that said my local shop does carry one general type line in most line weights so you can at least try a rod. Its not perfect but its a start. But not a chance they have lines to actually try fly lines.


In a perfect world I guess.. I don’t know about everyone else but I would pay to test lines if it was offered. Let’s say $20 for three lines you can cast in the grass and $5 for any additional lines. Lines would last more than long enough for fly shop to get there money back and then some.. at least I think.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> Ted, he is asking for a rod mfg....himself.


So he wants to start a rod mfg business?

Hey John?

edit....

Ok, I found it.

I could also write a book on this subject... but so many variables.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

John has a link to his website on his posts! And it looks like some good stuff.


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

Disregard. I see the link. Thanks.


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

Hi all, definitely not trying to use this post to advertise myself. Just honestly looking for feedback from lots of different anglers as we are at the drawing board for the next rod series. The feedback has been great and I'm taking note of everything everyone said. I've enjoyed being a part of these forums for probably 8 years at this point, although my schedule doesn't let me post nearly as often as I'd like. Thanks everyone who has taken the time to post!


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

johnmauser said:


> Hi all, definitely not trying to use this post to advertise myself. Just honestly looking for feedback from lots of different anglers as we are at the drawing board for the next rod series. The feedback has been great and I'm taking note of everything everyone said. I've enjoyed being a part of these forums for probably 8 years at this point, although my schedule doesn't let me post nearly as often as I'd like. Thanks everyone who has taken the time to post!


I wish more people that build custom rods did surveys like this instead of just building what they think everyone wants with no real input. 
High modulus blanks of any sort are more susceptible to breakage due to high sticking and beating the rod around. There seems to be a common misconception among the masses that the more a blank cost the tougher it will be. It’s actually quite the opposite. The lighter a blank the thinner the wall and more likely to snap due to nicks, scrapes and hitting with hard objects that causes a microscopic fracture that ends in blank breakage. You might hit the blank with a fly while casting and it takes many uses to actually load thecrod enough to finally break it abd by then you may have forgotten “that one time”...it’s the downfall of many rod companies. People think lifetime warranties are the bees knees but don’t realize what negative effects it has on a business. Super high end custom rod builders laugh at lifetime warranties because people want their cake and eat it too. I sell my rods “as is” and they are load tested before leaving my hands and accepting payment. What happens after that is up to the user. Treat a high end rod as such and it will last a long time but NOTHING is forever. People are clumsy with 6’6” rods, the longer and whippier ones get beat up even more.


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I wish more people that build custom rods did surveys like this instead of just building what they think everyone wants with no real input.
> High modulus blanks of any sort are more susceptible to breakage due to high sticking and beating the rod around. There seems to be a common misconception among the masses that the more a blank cost the tougher it will be. It’s actually quite the opposite. The lighter a blank the thinner the wall and more likely to snap due to nicks, scrapes and hitting with hard objects that causes a microscopic fracture that ends in blank breakage. You might hit the blank with a fly while casting and it takes many uses to actually load thecrod enough to finally break it abd by then you may have forgotten “that one time”...it’s the downfall of many rod companies. People think lifetime warranties are the bees knees but don’t realize what negative effects it has on a business. Super high end custom rod builders laugh at lifetime warranties because people want their cake and eat it too. I sell my rods “as is” and they are load tested before leaving my hands and accepting payment. What happens after that is up to the user. Treat a high end rod as such and it will last a long time but NOTHING is forever. People are clumsy with 6’6” rods, the longer and whippier ones get beat up even more.


100% agree


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Biggest concern is cost to be a member....

Rod, Reel, and Line are just out of my budget. I can get a really good spinning setup, rod, reel, and line for under 400 bucks... but fly gear of the same quality is not even close.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

I think rod companies do a disservice to customers by seemingly always pushing faster and faster rods and marketing them towards bombing out 80+ foot casts for every shot at a fish. Sure, those happen but I’d wager that over 90% of successful shots on the flats are inside 60’ and a substantial portion of those are inside 45’. Sort of like the old golf maxim, drive for show and putt for dough. 

I think a more moderately fast rod lends itself to better accuracy. That’s one reason I really like the Scott Tidal series that I have in 8 & 10wt and find it to be an amazing stick. 

I also wish there was more availability of shorter length rods which excel at the short, quick shots. 

I think something like a one-piece 8’ 7wt would be a killer redfish rod if the action were right.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Scott Meridian 8 wt 8"4"is a great close range stick.


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> I think rod companies do a disservice to customers by seemingly always pushing faster and faster rods and marketing them towards bombing out 80+ foot casts for every shot at a fish. Sure, those happen but I’d wager that over 90% of successful shots on the flats are inside 60’ and a substantial portion of those are inside 45’. Sort of like the old golf maxim, drive for show and putt for dough.
> 
> I think a more moderately fast rod lends itself to better accuracy. That’s one reason I really like the Scott Tidal series that I have in 8 & 10wt and find it to be an amazing stick.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. The continual marketing of faster and faster rods (I jokingly refer to it as "the next iphone") is probably my biggest personal gripe too. Super fast cannons have their place but in reality, they're only for a select group of anglers and a select group of situations. 

So I definitely think rods like that should be available, but the problem is that too many people were led to believe that was the rod they needed as their main stick.
6 years of guiding and having anglers show up with very unforgiving rods that they couldn't feel load, let me know that wasn't the case. Kind of like telling every hunter that a .30-06 is the best rifle for all hunting situations.

Guiding for redfish, I'd say most of our shots and hookups are in the 30-50ft range. Some closer, and some a little farther. Once in a blue moon is a shot over 70ft needed. The problem was most of my anglers show up with rods that excel at 70+ ft shots, but couldn't load quick enough when a fish popped up 20ft in front of them. I like you're golf reference. I guess it's like carrying a driver to the putt putt golf course.

When I started working on this a while back, I knew the first rod we put out had to be one that the average guy could feel load and would excel at the short to mid casts. Funny thing is, for me personally, they ended up casting farther than most of the extremely fast rods out there because I could feel everything that was going on through the casting stroke.

I also like the shorter rod lengths on bigger rods. Definitely something we'll work on down the line.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

*My interpretive complaint to the fly fishing/ fly rod industry.*

I've said this many times to many mfgs.... _ "Build the right rod at a reasonable price and they will come. The reviews of such a rod will speak louder than marketing"_ Most mfgs just don't get it.

I see a lot of you out there that hold on to a better quality reel then they do the rod. That can work for fast screaming pelagics and very big species. But for the most part , most of us (probably over 90-95%) are fishing for freshwater and inshore salt species that will pull hard to a point, but is nothing that can't be handled with either hand lining them in with the fly line or letting it run a little bit, up to 50yrds of backing at best on the reel with farely light drag and a little reel palming. Sure, you want to be prepared for that "oh shit!" fish, but for the most part, a simple reel with adequate drag will do the job. That is the honest truth about the job of a normal every day fly reel.

I even heard Lefty himself once say (in person) that "_the most important part of a fly fishing outfit was the fly rod, then the fly line and lastly the reel."_ Some of the ole timers will still quote _"the fly reel is just to hold the fly line." _What did we ever do without bar stock aluminum reels with high end drags back in older days? We still caught fish! Tho, Yes! Today, it's nice to have a nice reel for that extra insurance for a guy like me who may occasionally target those drag screamers on occasion. And yes, I do love to hear that sound! 

That being established, fly lines are caught in the middle of this debate of "what is better and where do I spend my money for a quality fly outfit?" I've always said _"A crappy fly line will cause a decent rod to feel crappy.... and a decent fly line will cause a crappy fly rod to feel decent."_ The problem with fly lines are that there are so many variables, that for the novice or average intermediate fly fisherman, it's too confusing to make sense of it all. What happened to the days when you can just buy a bass bug or saltwater weight forward taper (same taper, different color and slightly different materials), a dbl taper or level line for trout and an intermediate sink or full sink line (in several sink rates). Now, the niche lines have opened up a pandoras box full of fly lines, all of which runs at different grain weights and has more gimmicks than even a knowledgeably fly angler can keep up with. 

Most of us fly fishermen are only asking several questions... _"What is the "Best" line that will help me cast this rod easily in either a floater or sometimes a sink tip or intermediate sink line?"_ Here in the south region of the country, from Texas, to Florida, and up to Virginia (and south of a straight line between TX to VA), rarely do I hear any request for full sink lines, unless it's an offshore guy chasing tuna, West coast guys or NE fly rodders. West coast & NW fly rodders are a different sort and at this point, I'm not going to go into those issues, which will further complicate this subject matter.

These issue are enough to drive fly rod designers mad. However, on the other side of the coin, it's the fly line designers going nuts doing the same thing with fly lines, changing them and trying to keep up with newer fly rod designers that are coming up with new technologies to improve their fly rods by making them lighter and faster, but inadvertently causing them to be stiffer at some point. 

AFFTA standards have gone out the window at this point in time, since those standards were designed almost 60yrs ago and interpreted around bamboo and fiberglass rods, for which those technologies hardly exist anymore, except for a few niche nostalgic circles. Today's rods feels nothing like those rods from days gone by. Faster, cleaner, lighter and crisper to throw clean, tight, wind resistant loops out further to reach those spookier, more pressured fish. Thank God for that.

At this point, a new reformed standard needs to be establish, matching fly line weights to the average sum of all the fly rod technologies over the last 5yrs to last decade or so, of rod designs and technologies of materials used to create such technologies. Of course, *I'm only talking about the rod blanks here*, which is the most important part of how a fly rod casts. It's how the rod flows, which ultimately makes the cast and the ease of such (casting techniques aside).

TO Be continued.....

Ted Haas


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

Backwater said:


> *My interpretive complaint to the fly fishing/ fly rod industry.*
> 
> I've said this many times to many mfgs.... _ "Build the right rod at a reasonable price and they will come.
> ................_
> ...


Well said Ted, I enjoyed all of that and agree with ya.


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

What Ted said. Too many variables.


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## mightyrime (Jul 18, 2016)

2 things to me...

as said before all rods should have a grain wt. window as to what the designer intended the action of the rod should be. That way if you know what the intention was you could go higher grains to slow it down or lower grains to speed it up. Also line companies would need to fall into the same rules.

2nd is i understand rod companies are pushing the envelope to create something new that they can sell for top dollar ($750-$1150). But there are so many good designs that are older that could be reissued and improved upon and sold at a much more affordable price. No R&D costs to blame on price. 

I think an excellent example of what more rod companies should do is the Orvis Recon. The Orvis Recon is the same taper as the Helios 2. They kept their taper mandrels, downgraded the components, made the graphite a bit different and cranked out a sweet rod for less.

so many good rods of the past that with a few tweaks could be remade economically .


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

Matching rods and lines is my biggest gripe, challenge, problem or whatever you want to call it.

I'm not experienced enough to have an opinion on yesterday vs today when it comes to rod design and others have articulated well on differences in feel and all that. Still, it seems to me like rod makers and line makers kinda chase each other's tails. Rod makers come up with new designs that are faster, stiffer, more powerful etc., and suddenly that 210 grain line won't load an 8 weight properly anymore... hmm. What to do? Let's design a 330 grain line and call it an 8 weight!! Awesome!. Except now that 8 weight rod feels overloaded (because it is). What now? Make the rod stiffer!! Yeah, that's the ticket.

To those who came before me, did rods back in the day not get more powerful as weight designation increased? I mean, that's what it was all about wasn't it? Your 8 weight got smoked by a huge fish, go to a 9, 10, 11, etc... right? The way things seem to be going we're going to be fishing triple digit tarpon with 5 weights before long. Except they won't be 5 weights. Not really. 

I don't think rod makers need to put a grain window on their rods. Well, that's not true. They already do that when they call it an 8, 9, etc.. They need to label rods with the correct weight designation. It takes a 330 grain line to load your rod? Guess what? That's not an 8 weight. Don't label it as such. The system includes a window already. Maybe that's new? 

So, I'd like to see rod makers putting out rods that work with the stated line designation, and line makers worry about taper efficiency more than grain weight. I don't want to have a 10 weight line on my 8 weight and I sure as hell don't want a 14 weight on my 12. Scott and Cortland seem to get it, but I don't know about these other guys


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

tailwalk said:


> Matching rods and lines is my biggest gripe, challenge, problem or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> I'm not experienced enough to have an opinion on yesterday vs today when it comes to rod design and others have articulated well on differences in feel and all that. Still, it seems to me like rod makers and line makers kinda chase each other's tails. Rod makers come up with new designs that are faster, stiffer, more powerful etc., and suddenly that 210 grain line won't load an 8 weight properly anymore... hmm. What to do? Let's design a 330 grain line and call it an 8 weight!! Awesome!. Except now that 8 weight rod feels overloaded (because it is). What now? Make the rod stiffer!! Yeah, that's the ticket.
> 
> ...


That is the complains from most, were there is no standardization for current produced fly rods and lines, hence the reason I mentioned AFFTA needs to put a panel of experts together and make a current standard that both fly rod and fly line companies can use as a guideline in producing products for those line weight ratings.

John, I know this is taking a detour from what you really need to hear from the public, because this particular topic I am commenting on is out of your control. I get it. But it is the bases of so many problems in the industry itself. I'll later touch on things that you have more control on later. But this topic is a relevant issue in the fly fishing industry and even the top names in the industry wants to bury their heads in the sand and do nothing about it. Quite honestly, no body has the brass balls to spearhead this and take the bull by the horns and make it happen. For little guys like me who call themselves the "squeeaky wheel," I/we don't have the money and resources to make it happen. But AFFTA itself does, along with the partnership of all major rod and fly line manufactures (any any of the smaller guys in the industry who also want to participate, including fly shops, fly casting instructors and any other experts in the field), all coming together in a conference to agree on testing practices and principles for a core group of professionals and experts, testing current and late model rods (from 10, 15 even 20yrs ago to current new released models) and come up with some sort of standardization that will effect, not only fresh water anglers (which the old AFFTA Standard was also based around, aside from bamboo and fiberglass rod materials), but us newer saltwater anglers. 

That would revolutionize the industry and make it simplified for the masses to match fly lines by weight vs wt rated designed fly rods.

Ted


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

tailwalk said:


> Matching rods and lines is my biggest gripe, challenge, problem or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> So, I'd like to see rod makers putting out rods that work with the stated line designation, and line makers worry about taper efficiency more than grain weight. I don't want to have a 10 weight line on my 8 weight and I sure as hell don't want a 14 weight on my 12. Scott and Cortland seem to get it, but I don't know about these other guys


Yes, yes and yes!


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## johnmauser (Sep 9, 2009)

Backwater said:


> John, I know this is taking a detour from what you really need to hear from the public, because this particular topic I am commenting on is out of your control. I get it. But it is the bases of so many problems in the industry itself.
> 
> Ted


No, I'm completely cool with it. I didn't think my post would make it past 1 page of comments and here we are on page 4!

You have this large group of anglers screaming that something isn't right, and it's time for manufacturers to listen. I don't know all the ins and outs of why certain decisions are made at the top, but coming from being a long time angler and guide and now jumping into manufacturing, I completely understand the concern.


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

Respectfully, I don't think a complete overhaul of the affta standards is necessary. It already goes to 15 weight doesn't it? Just get the marketing gurus out of the way for a minute and call the rod that needs a 330 to load an 11 weight and be done with it. What's the problem? People will be embarrassed that they need an 11 weight to land a snook?


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## sevenweight (Sep 3, 2015)

My biggest gripe? Rod companies that don't handle service/warranty returns quickly and with good customer communication. Is it too much to expect to receive an e-mail acknowledging receipt of a returned rod? Is it too much to expect the tip section of a current top-selling model to be replaced in less than eight weeks? TFO and Hardy have been great; a couple others not so much. I don't get worked up about the procession of new top-of-the line models or even the price of those rods. There's always the previous, discontinued model on eBay for a fraction of the price if that's an issue.

Like some others, I find it really annoying when line manufacturers don't put a taper chart front-and-center for every line they offer.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

tailwalk said:


> Respectfully, I don't think a complete overhaul of the affta standards is necessary. It already goes to 15 weight doesn't it? Just get the marketing gurus out of the way for a minute and call the rod that needs a 330 to load an 11 weight and be done with it. What's the problem? People will be embarrassed that they need an 11 weight to land a snook?


Tailwalk, but those standards were founded on rods that were as slow as molassas that mostly were fished in northern freshwater streams, rivers and lakes. a masivily long cast was 50-60ft that only a select few experts could accomplish. The normal cast was 20-30ft+/- (no joke) and there was no such thing as a weight forward line back then. That was almost 60yrs ago and the rod building materials back then were bamboo and fiberglass, when they came up with those standards.. Even boron wasn't out yet. Today, rods are mostly built out of carbon fiber/graphite and of course you know the difference. To take a line that loaded those slow buggy whips and expect the same line weight to load this new faster high modular carbon fiber rods is absurd and for the most part, rod companies just ignored it and kept going down that path. So then flyline companies started chasing them with heavier lines that were demanded to load such rods by the old school guys that still wanted the rod to flex and have some type of parabolic feel to them (tho not much of it). Sorry for the run-on sentences.

Do this, go find one of those old rods, try casting one, even with a properly weighted fly line, according to AFFTA and you'll see what I mean. Then take that line and put it on a med-fast or a simple fast rod (and not even an ultra fast rod) and see what it does.

Rod building technologies will continue to advanced. I've seen the future, which goes beyond carbon fiber. If we don't do something now, it will be all over the board and people will almost have to pay an expert to match a fly line with the rod, which is honestly a dumb idea.  I personally like the K.I.S.S. concept, but we need some new standardization to make that happen.

My 45 cents worth!


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I mostly have Sage rods. And they where expensive at the time
i bought so rods for my grandsons from Hong Kong and i cast them the other day and they shoot line like a rocket. And they where at a fraction of cost of a new rod in the states.


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

I would love to string up a classic rod with a modern day true to weight line. I just picked up a cortland flats taper 6 weight for my meridian 6. Grain window? Dead center of the affta standard. Haven't thrown it yet but I bet it's awesome.

Joan wulff threw 161 feet in 1960. I don't know if that was a cane rod, glass, or graphite. And I don't know if it was a true 5 or a 7 or some other combination... enlighten me? Also 131 feet with a 9 weight in 1951... glass I guess... 

We seek out lighter and lighter rods. And rod companies indulge us. Imagine, if they build light rods that throw 11 weight lines and get labeled 8 weights, what a true 8 weight would feel like?

Edit: I'm not sure either side of this discussion is right or wrong but I'm enjoying thinking it out. Thanks for the back and forth.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

I know a few really great fly fishing guides that use TFO and Redington rods exclusively and would make lots of folks blush if they knew what they caught on a regular basis. One is in Florida. I believe in great gear but also that “it’s not the arrow, it’s the Indian”.


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

[QUOTE="Smackdaddy53, “it’s not the arrow, it’s the Indian”.[/QUOTE]

This is a key statement


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## Fishtex (May 10, 2014)

$500+ reels won’t make you a better caster.....


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I know a few really great fly fishing guides that use TFO and Redington rods exclusively and would make lots of folks blush if they knew what they caught on a regular basis. One is in Florida. I believe in great gear but also that “it’s not the arrow, it’s the Indian”.


And that means nothing. There are a lot of reasons a guide chooses to use a certain rod brand and most of those reasons have nothing to do with whether or not they catch fish. That's not to say that they aren't good rods its just that what a guide uses is based on other factors primarily.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

ifsteve said:


> That's not to say that they aren't good rods its just that what a guide uses is based on other factors primarily.


 And by "other factors" you mean, how many free they get.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

K3anderson said:


> And by "other factors" you mean, how many free they get.


Well that is certainly one of the top reasons. But many guides also use less expensive brands where the majority of their customers are inexperienced and have a higher potential to doing stupid stuff and breaking them.

Want a real test. Go look and see what the top fly tournament guys are using in the various tarpon, bonefish, and permit tourneys. Yes many of them are getting them free too but they are only using what for them is the best tool to compete with. Hint they aren't doing it with chinese stuff.

And certainly you can catch a lot of fish with any rod out there. But the point is looking to see what a guide has on his boat is no more meaningful that to see what the really top anglers have on their boats and in fact less.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

krash said:


> Biggest concern is cost to be a member....
> 
> Rod, Reel, and Line are just out of my budget. I can get a really good spinning setup, rod, reel, and line for under 400 bucks... but fly gear of the same quality is not even close.


I got started with an old Orvis rod, reel, line that a buddy sold me for $150. Caught my first salt and fresh water fish on it and then fished it another 9 months before I realized I hadn't touched my spin gear during all that time...at which point I invested in high end fly gear.

Also...since I tie my own flies I'm no longer buying plugs or paddle tails, cast nets or bait. And I roll out in the skiff with far fewer rods/reels and less gear overall. So even after the initial investment in quality gear beyond my cheap entry point, I'm spending less per fishing trip than I did when I was throwing spin.

Cost as a barrier to entry is one of the biggest myths in fly fishing, IMHO.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

ifsteve said:


> Well that is certainly one of the top reasons.


 What I have seen first hand throughout my adult life is that there has never been an example cheap=quality. That can't happen.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

tailwalk said:


> Joan wulff threw 161 feet in 1960. I don't know if that was a cane rod, glass, or graphite. And I don't know if it was a true 5 or a 7 or some other combination... enlighten me? Also 131 feet with a 9 weight in 1951... glass I guess....


Those were custom hand made rods, designed to be purposely stiff to carry a lot of line. Also custom made lines. Also Joan had trained and had a very good form and muscles to make that happen, for a woman. She also had a lot of support for experts to help her.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Good point, but there is something to be said about a truly nice casting rod.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

John, here's some of my thoughts on your particular subject.

1.) The differences in cost in materials from decent entry level rods to high end rods, including blank building materials and rod components, are not as far apart as the manufactures would like the public to think. That's one of the unveiling of a dirty little secret that the rod industry wants us to believe. But, in fact, it's just not true.

Once the tapers are designed and mandrels built, the actual mfg process is mostly the same, as far as costs and man hours. Do you think the difference of Loomis' Asquith X wrapping by one of Shimano's wrapping machines in Japan cost $500 more than the Pro X blank they are wrapping here in the States? Not hardly. They just feel they have the right to charge that much, to set some sort of standard in the industry. Sort of considering it as an elite that causes rod ear heads to chase it.

Sure, there is a difference with labor cost here in the States vs other industrialized countries like China, Japan, Korea, etc. So no doubt, the cost of living and wage standards are higher here in the States. That's a given.

So with that being said, the difference in cost between decent vs high end rod building materials and rod components, are marginal at best. Yes, a few bucks more to get decent stuff without getting ridiculasly obsessively hign end that goes far beyond function.

2. ) I think what the masses want in rods 5wt - 12wt, is a rod that throws really well, both close in (+/- 30-40ft), throws almost effortlessly from 40-60 normal fishing ranges and also fairly easy out to 80ft without working too hard and with the right skill set, can even bomb a 100ft cast for the expert caster on occasion. With all that, it should have enough feel to the rod without always watching what your line is doing, even with a properly matched line weight, without having to carry too much line and without having to upline or over load it by a 1/2 step, 3/4 step or a full line wt up from designated line weight rating on the rod.

I believe a rod built with a softer tip has to compensate for a rod too stiff in the mid section and vice versa, where the mid flexes too much and the tip has to be faster. Why not a rod that hovers between fast and extra fast, that flows equally from mid section to tip, not flexing too much but just enough to feel the line and cause the rod to load evenly throughout the entire rod blank. That also includes a butt section that is not stiff as a broom handle and has enough feel and flex to it to flow with the cast, yet have stored power and energy to help bomb a line or lift a fish in deeper water if need be. Butt section can be built up by widening it without adding more materials, which adds weight to the blank.

Since most rods today are used within inshore salt to freshwater, we want a rod that has some lifting in the butt section without sacrificing too much finesse when fighting fish. A butt section that has enough feed back to feel what the fly line is doing while up in the air to feel all the head shakes of a fish will fighting it.

I think finishes are irrelevant to the fish, but more for the fisherman. I've seen it split down the middle, glossy vs matte or flat finish. But one thing to note, the more finish, the more weight you add to the blank. But it does add for durability. I would look into rod building resins and finishes that are light yet strong and can add to a protective outer layer. Just food for thought.

For components, I think the average fly fisherman today are more concern function than bling bling. Components should be good and reliable and resist corrosion to the nth degree. But needing a wow factor on the rod is more for just a small few. I personally don't care about super high end reel seats. They never helped me to catch one fish. But a good, uplocking, dbl locking ring (with o-ring washer) reel seat that will do the job is sufficient. Hey, I don't want my reel coming off or loose when casting or fighting a fish.

Pac Bay components are sufficient. I do like the gunmetal colored spring snake guides or single foot guides and stripping guides can be re-coil or ceramic inserts. The hair splitting nuances between the 2 doesn't really concern me too much or Joe Public out there. As long as it's corrosion resistance and functional, it doesn't matter.

I'm a big fan tho of quality cork handles that will take an abuse, clean up easily and wouldn't come apart in little pieces. Also over the years, I've found that thinner rod handles makes it easier to cast with less hand fatigue. Also found that people grip thicker handles tighter, which effect their casting and causes hand fatigue over time or throughout the day. So thinner rod handles are better. That's coming from a guy who has big hands. 

For smaller rods from 4-6wt, I do like Sages new snub nose handles. Could you give people that option (snub nose or half wells)? I think that is possible. From 7wt on up, definitely a full wells grip.

One thing I see rod companies get in trouble with is trying to build niche rods for every situation. In the end, they are left with many rods than never see and have to be discounted out the back door with some on-line discount outlet. Instead, build rod for the masses, from 4wt to 10wts in a 9ft stick and have a few 11 & 12wts available for special order. You'll sell more 4wts thru 8wts than anything else. So let those other big named rod mfgs supple those niche rods for those few certain people who just have to have them. 

Also, one of my biggest complains is that the flow of a rod series doesn't flow the same through all the rod weight ratings they make. Most 6-8's are similar, but throw the same thin in a 9wt or up and it dramatically starts to get stiffer or 5wt and less and starts to get buggy whipish. Sure, they all are casting different weighted lines, but the rod flow doesn't have to change, if designed that way. IF, you can pick up a 7wt, cast it and then pick up a 10wt and cast it as well, and the flow of the rod feels the same, you have something there. 

Give them what they expect. A decent rod sock, a decent but everyday functional rod tube, I think is important. Contura maybe. I've had zippers get stuck with corrosion and I've had rod tubes so nice, that I didn't want to take them out of the house for fear in messing them up.

Finally, IF, building a rod with adequate materials and components, that is durable and will last and can price it in a range that the average working class guy can afford and eventually afford to have several of them, to broaden his or her range of fishing, then you have the market's attention to the masses. Even that guy that can afford more or that person that will go the extra mile that is considered very good and functional, then you will set a standard.

I think you don't need an insanely amount of rod lines, Like Sage, Loomis and others. Just keep it simple and they will come. 1 to 2 lines, maybe no more than 3. Good casting rods, good materials, technology and components with a great warranty and great customer service. You wouldn't have to spend crazy money on marketing. Just let some quality people review the rods where those reviews can be read on all the sites and forums, and that is the best way to cause people to come asking and looking for your rods.

Your customer service needs to be spot on great and timely, friendly and sincere. There is an old saying... _*"People like doing business with people they like!" *_Aside from the rod, THAT is how you will win them over. Creating a culture behind your rods is one thing, but treating them decently and fairly, speaks volumes.

One last thing. Make the rod available for folks to go somewhat locally to try them. I think the #1 cause of rod companies not doing volume sales is people today want to pick up the rod, closely look it over 1st hand and then try the rod out 1st before they commit to buying it, for obvious reasons. I think that is where many companies fail. Salt Marsh may make a quality affordable mid price rod. But who knows, I've never had the option to try one without putting some big deposit down and paying shipping back and forth to do so, just to get a looksey. Get a demo rod or 2 in multiple shops that they can get a discount on or let them temporarily use it as a demo and have the option to sell it. That's letting them do your marketing 1st hand with the individual people who are looking. 

I hope this helps give you a few ideas.

Good luck with it all and we'll be looking out for what's next with Mauser Rods. 

Ted Haas


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## mxbeebop (Mar 22, 2013)

I'd like to know what percentage of cost the insurance policy is when you buy a new rod? Perhaps just end the lifetime warranty or make it an option and lower the price. I keep my rods in my skiff I don't need door jamb coverage.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

mxbeebop said:


> I keep my rods in my skiff I don't need door jamb coverage.


 If its TFO, its no for door jam. It's for casting it. Guaranteed you will be sending back a number of times.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

mxbeebop said:


> I'd like to know what percentage of cost the insurance policy is when you buy a new rod? Perhaps just end the lifetime warranty or make it an option and lower the price. I keep my rods in my skiff I don't need door jamb coverage.


When Jim Murphy owned Redington before he sold it to Orvis, which then flipped the company to Sage, back then, they were one of the 1st companies to offer a "no questions asked lifetime warranty." I knew Jim back then and he told me once that they self insured themselves by holding back 15% of all sales (rods, reels, etc.) to cover those warranties. I'm assuming that was 15% of dealer pricing tho.


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## Ken T (Dec 10, 2015)

Just a quick 2 cents since so many of the posts have the common thread of rod cost. For the big names the most expensive part is selling it. The big names advertise everywhere. I was at a seminar years ago where they put the ad cost at more than 50% of the rods price. This was also when print was the main avenue for advertising. Now with social media, web design, seo optimization and print, it's no wonder prices are where they are.

Ken


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

K3anderson said:


> If its TFO, its no for door jam. It's for casting it. Guaranteed you will be sending back a number of times.


That's not always the case. I've had a few TFO's with no issues.


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## eightwt (May 11, 2017)

K3anderson said:


> Guaranteed you will be sending back a number of times.


Never have had an issue with my TFO's. Any warranty work was my own dang fault.


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

eightwt said:


> Never have had an issue with my TFO's. Any warranty work was my own dang fault.


I have broken TFO's, the key word being "I".


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Here's another peeve. Rod makers that put rods out that have horrible breakage issues. Look they all break sooner or later (or you aren't fishing them enough!) but there are some out there that are really really bad in this area. And yes the BVK is way up there. In fact look at TFO's own website where they show their "Rod Performance Matrix". They give the BVK a 1 on a scale of 1-10 for lifting yet they still market this rod for use in saltwater. Are you freaking kidding me? That is almost criminal that they still sell this POS.

https://tforods.com/bvk-fly-rods/


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## Thomas C. Matthews (Jun 16, 2018)

Big box stores that have sales associates that just do not know what they are selling. I realized the other day that I would like to start fly fishing again and I could not find my cheap old 8 wt fly rod. So I was looking at buying a new rod. I decided to try out a TFO Mangrove. I drove over to the nearest Cabalas and they had two 8wt Mangrove rods. No rod socks. In fact most of the rods that should have rod socks were missing them. 

When I worked at Bass Pro the sales associate in they fly department would store them separately so I had a person from fishing come over. He had no idea if they even came with rod socks. No idea where they would be. Likely it was either stolen or thrown out with the box.

I pointed out that the one 9wt they had did have its rod sock. He suggested I just take that one. The problem of corse is the sock is labeled 9wt. So I just left and ordered the rod online so now I am sitting here hoping that it gets here unbroken.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> Here's another peeve. Rod makers that put rods out that have horrible breakage issues. Look they all break sooner or later (or you aren't fishing them enough!) but there are some out there that are really really bad in this area. And yes the BVK is way up there. In fact look at TFO's own website where they show their "Rod Performance Matrix". They give the BVK a 1 on a scale of 1-10 for lifting yet they still market this rod for use in saltwater. Are you freaking kidding me? That is almost criminal that they still sell this POS.
> 
> https://tforods.com/bvk-fly-rods/


It's not always the case. In fact the BVK is a decent extra fast rod in a 5wt-8w. Again, I've known many people with none that never had issues. But yes, they are not a lifting rod and more of a finesse rod. But that's also the Sage Method. It's not a lifting rod either and tends to break when people don't use it as such.

The key I believe for the general masses , when it comes to fly rods, as a rod designer and mfg., is to build something that is a little more durable without sacrificing weight, making a rod stiffer or making it too buggy whipish to avoid being too brittle. But the public also needs to learn how to treat a flyrod and not toss it in the boat like they do their spinning rods or bait casters. Like you said, if a rod gets used enough, their is a high chance that Murphy's Law will come into effect, tho I've had many, many rods that I've fished hard and have been thru the ringer and is still functioning great!

And on that note, I'm leaving to go snook fishing this morning with a 16yr old rod that I've never had an issue with. (one of those "keepers")


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

ifsteve said:


> And yes the BVK is way up there.


I've broken 4 BVK's (1 on linelift, 1 while putting line on) and know of 5 others (just friends) in the last 3 years alone. There's countless threads on TFO breakage on Florida Saltwater flyfishing group. Even more praising the "warranty" including one just two days ago where someone is in Islamorada and broke it and didn't have a backup. These are not quality rods. Fans mike like them because thats what they have, but, the facts dictate they break more than anything on the market. For people new to fly, that are learning to cast, this is probably the worst rod to recommend because it is going to break. Sadly, this is the exact group they target.


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## Outearly (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm starting to chill in my old age. I have no problem with the industry. 

Buy a reasonable rod, use it. I heard Lefty Kreh say that any $200 rod likely casts better than the guy holding it.

As for expensive fly lines, if we went out to have a beer and gripe about fly lines, and got carried away and drank a few more, and decided to eat a plate of nachos, we'd spend about what we spend on a fly line. 

So, stay home, eat a pbj and splurge on the line.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

Outearly said:


> So, stay home, eat a pbj and splurge on the line.


LOL. Probably good advice.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Very true...it costs me a "fly line" every time I take my wife and daughters out for dinner. Maybe I'll just start ordering salads and drinking water...


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

K3anderson said:


> I've broken 4 BVK's (1 on linelift, 1 while putting line on) and know of 5 others (just friends) in the last 3 years alone. There's countless threads on TFO breakage on Florida Saltwater flyfishing group. Even more praising the "warranty" including one just two days ago where someone is in Islamorada and broke it and didn't have a backup. These are not quality rods. Fans mike like them because thats what they have, but, the facts dictate they break more than anything on the market. For people new to fly, that are learning to cast, this is probably the worst rod to recommend because it is going to break. Sadly, this is the exact group they target.


Ouch...that hits close to home!


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

my biggest problem? not enough rod color options.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Light weight, but strong rods are better. Anyone that says weight does not matter to them has not stood on the deck of a skiff or waded for many days(a beginner or casual fly fisher) Light and strong cost more $$ in materials(guide quality is some times overlooked) and quality control manufacturing. Calculations are made by most technologically advanced manufacturers with a more or less hard cutoff on how much load the rods can take (measured tensile strength of the blank) vs profitability. Sell more/break more. I fished with two young strong clients for a half day yesterday and at the end of the hot half day their casting started to suffer. One with a Sage TCR and one with a Loomis CrossCurrent in eight wt. Both good casters with old technology. Just one example.


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

crboggs said:


> Very true...it costs me a "fly line" every time I take my wife and daughters out for dinner. Maybe I'll just start ordering salads and drinking water...


Huh. How many fly lines should I bring to Bern's next Friday night? lol


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

sjrobin said:


> Light weight, but strong rods are better. Anyone that says weight does not matter to them has not stood on the deck of a skiff or waded for many days(a beginner or casual fly fisher) Light and strong cost more $$ in materials(guide quality is some times overlooked) and quality control manufacturing. Calculations are made by most technologically advanced manufacturers with a more or less hard cutoff on much load the rods can take(tensile strength of the blank) vs profitability. Sell more/break more. I fished with two young strong clients for a half day yesterday and at the end of the hot half day their casting started to suffer. One with a Sage TCR and one with a Loomis CrossCurrent in eight wt. Both good casters with old technology. Just one example.


I guess it depends on your fishing style -- I've never found it to be a problem unless I'm doing a lot of blind casting, which isn't really how I like to fly fish. I do like to keep my artificial spin rods light for that reason, though.

Or, maybe I just need to get better about finding more visible fish to cast to


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

mwolaver said:


> Huh. How many fly lines should I bring to Bern's next Friday night? lol


*lol* Bern's is mediocre and not worth the expense. The Dessert Room is legit, however. So maybe two flies lines including tax and tip.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

No blind casting, just difficult to feed shallow red and black drum every few minutes on both sides of the bow with a little cross wind. Very typical Texas flats fly fishing.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

crboggs said:


> *lol* Bern's is mediocre and not worth the expense. The Dessert Room is legit, however. So maybe two flies lines including tax and tip.


I don't know, their French onion soup is the bomb.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

SomaliPirate said:


> I don't know, their French onion soup is the bomb.


When the best thing at a steak place is their onion soup, I rest my case. 

But...back to fly rods!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

K3anderson said:


> I've broken 4 BVK's (1 on linelift, 1 while putting line on) and know of 5 others (just friends) in the last 3 years alone. There's countless threads on TFO breakage on Florida Saltwater flyfishing group. Even more praising the "warranty" including one just two days ago where someone is in Islamorada and broke it and didn't have a backup. These are not quality rods. Fans mike like them because thats what they have, but, the facts dictate they break more than anything on the market. For people new to fly, that are learning to cast, this is probably the worst rod to recommend because it is going to break. Sadly, this is the exact group they target.


No doubt K3, you had problems with them. I get it. I can honestly said that it's not an entry level rod or rod for newbies. It's was a very fast rod and was clearly marked they it wasn't a stick for lifting. Heck Loomis had lots of problems with their GLX. You looked at them funny and they would explode in pieces. That's what some light weight extra fast, extra crisp, light weight rods do sometimes. Just dinging them with a fly or clouser can be enough to start it's demise. I think they are phasing them out for a more durable Axiom II possibly.

This morning I fished with a extra fast rod that was demonstrated to me by wacking it hard across a desk about 18yrs ago. It's still a great rod.

No doubt, durability out in the field will be a factor that will get lots of rave reviews for choice rods out there. If only you wouldn't have to worry about a rod breaking. But you'll be sacrificing performance.

True story, Shakespeare rods 1st came out with the Ugly Stick back when I was in middle school. So my younger brother went out and bought one with his money he was saving. I remember seeing the commercials where they would bend the tip of the rod around and tought the rod with the tip and it wouldn't break. So when it brought it home, the 1st thing I wanted to do was to try what they did in the commercials, since we broke many rods on fish and whatever. So as soon as I bent it around to try to touch the tip to the rod, it broke. Needless to say, he was pissed at me! Lol

I bought my son's first fishing rod when he was 4yrs old, based on durability. It was a Zebco Industructable. You should have seen the commercials that sold me on it. He never did break it, yet I broke many when I was a kid. 

Maybe one day someone will come out with a great fly rod that doesn't break. We can let Monster Mike test it out! 






Until then, I watch how I carry it, watch where I set it down, watch how I cast and don't try to high stick anything. Not even fish my fly off a snag with my rod tip! 

K3, I hope you found some durable rods you like. 

Ted


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

Backwater said:


> No doubt K3, you had problems with them. I get it. I can honestly said that it's not an entry level rod or rod for newbies.
> Ted


Newbie, LOL. My current fave blank is my sage one. (never broken) , but, of course I built that exactly the way I wanted myself (like most of my rods). My other 5 NRX's haven't had any breaks. I did break my St. Croix once, but, that may have had something to do with smashing the platform with it.


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

I love the crosscurrent glx, just bought one from a guy on here. I also use scott s4s which I like but they break. Also got a one piece nrx 12wt that I love. Weights of those rods don’t bother me. I am intrigued by Gary Loomis new edge rods now that they are direct to consumer for $450 but concerned they make break easily.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

K3anderson said:


> Newbie, LOL.


Nobody called you a newbie! 



K3anderson said:


> My current fave blank is my sage one. (never broken) , but, of course I built that exactly the way I wanted myself (like most of my rods). My other 5 NRX's haven't had any breaks.


 Both Ones and NRX's break. But yeah, the BVK's are worse with breakage. But I guess it all depends on a lot of variables. 



K3anderson said:


> I did break my St. Croix once, but, that may have had something to do with smashing the platform with it.


That's not going to get that fish back ya know!


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Fishshoot said:


> I love the crosscurrent glx, just bought one from a guy on here. I also use scott s4s which I like but they break. Also got a one piece nrx 12wt that I love. Weights of those rods don’t bother me. I am intrigued by Gary Loomis new edge rods now that they are direct to consumer for $450 but concerned they make break easily.


Why would you be concerned that an Edge/Northfork Composites blank would break easily? Made in USA and very well made blanks across the board. Lots if these “high end” blanks I see guys raving about are Chinese garbage and they eat them up. I’m about to buy a few of these Northfork fly blanks and build some customs on them. I already build casting and spinning rods on their other blanks and tested them to their limits with not one blank out of 30 I have broke while load testing and are all straight as an arrow.


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## Thomas C. Matthews (Jun 16, 2018)

I remember the Loomis GLX rod breakage and was going to bring that up. I was actually in a Cut Rate Tackle when a customer came in looking for a new GLX rod blank. Loomis had refused to send him a replacement blank for his custom build rod. They would credit him the cost of the blank and send a production rod but would no-longer sell the rod blank. The store did not have any and Loomis was having trouble with that particular rod breaking. 

The breaks were caused by to much pressure being applied by the string used to put on the eyes. 

As far as I know they still sold all they fly rod blanks the real issues were in the light saltwater rods such as the P8400.


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## David Fulton (Dec 19, 2017)

For me, it's the scarcity, and increased prices, of the blanks. It used to be that if you couldn't afford a premium rod, you could save some money by buying the blank, and building it yourself. Then manufacturers got wise, and jacked the blank prices up, or no longer offer blanks for sale. 

You can still save money by building your own, but not as much. However, if you're patient, you can buy the blank and components piece meal (instead of all at once), and spread out the cost.

Dave


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

sjrobin said:


> No blind casting, just difficult to feed shallow red and black drum every few minutes on both sides of the bow with a little cross wind. Very typical Texas flats fly fishing.


Ok, I'm jealous!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Guys, let's get back to John's thread. What's your grips?




321nole said:


> my biggest problem? not enough rod color options.


Wait... your just kidding, right?


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

Fishshoot said:


> I love the crosscurrent glx, just bought one from a guy on here. I also use scott s4s which I like but they break. Also got a one piece nrx 12wt that I love. Weights of those rods don’t bother me. I am intrigued by Gary Loomis new edge rods now that they are direct to consumer for $450 but concerned they make break easily.


Ordered an Edge 9 wt. Gamma B. $450 for rod, $10 excise tax, $125 optional warranty. 3-5 weeks for delivery. We will see.


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

Backwater said:


> Wait... your just kidding, right?


Am I?


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## Ken T (Dec 10, 2015)

Thought I would chime in on the rod breakage issue. I normally guide 200+ days a year and have for 20+ years. I see rods break all the time. I also see every brand break. When graphite first hit the market, the early rods rarely lasted very long. People simply were not prepared for the fragility of the new technology. I think recently we are going through this again, but to a lesser degree.

With the newer fast, super light rods the odds of breakage certainly go up. When you look at how thin they are and how tiny the diameter of the blank is near the tip a lot can go wrong. Over the last few years the breakage of these newer lighter rods has been rising. 

I can't count how many people I know who have broken these rods the first time they use them. The number one way that I see people break these rods is simply by pulling the line out of the tip. These fast rods just don't bend straight down. Many break before they ever cast to their first fish. There is one particular rod that I have seen blow up from this over and over and it is not a TFO. 

These fast rods are also super susceptible to breakage from dings, scratches and the sections not being seated properly. Breaks of this nature don't normally occur at the time of damage but when you overload the rod at a later time or under the stress of a fish. 

As someone who watches people fish all day I can tell you it is rare to see a rod break for no apparent reason.

My main reason for pointing these breakage issues out is to state that these super fast sticks require far more consciousness during transport, setup and fishing. This is especially difficult for the angler who has been fishing moderate priced mid flex rods for a long period of time.

When myself and my guide staff started to see the trend in rod breakage increase, we started to share what we were seeing with our clients who fished the super fast rods.
Below are a few of the scenarios you should avoid.

Pulling the fly line out the tip in a downward motion. #1
Pointing the rod behind your body when fighting fish. (same downward Bend as #1)
Trying to cast a tangle off the rod tip. 
Sliding rod into boat storage with 1 hand.
Casting Slack
Starting cast with fly and line too deep below surface
Bending rod to retrieve snags. 

These things can be done with a 200.00 mid flex but the high performance rods will break your heart if you are not aware of their limitations.

Lastly it is a great idea when you are about to drop the big bucks on the newest and greatest that you examine it well at the time of purchase.

Ken


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Here's another big pet peeve of mine 

Guys who are posting all the time having this rod or that rod that are new. There is a poster on here who does this all the time. With the typical explanation that "well its just .....for me" or "it just doesn't fit my casting style". Then they want something what looks like a really good deal. Except for one thing. They didn't pay anything close to retail. They get them from some buddy or rep for the pro guide price and then turn around and sell them for a nice little profit. 

Nothing wrong with a guide getting a buddy a rod for his own use. But when they are doing it as a money maker that is garbage. I am not talking about a guy who makes a one off post to sell something. But when I see the same user selling rod after rod....you aren't fooling anybody.

So to the OP, guides, shops......be prudent with getting your buddies deals. 

And for full disclosure, I have gotten an rare guide program deal. But I wouldn't dream of turning that into a way to make a few bucks. If I get offered something like that I only buy it for my own use. If I don't need it I pass.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

I think the marketing people have gone way out of control trying to come up with something 'special' just to sell more for the sake of profit not necessarily for the need of filling a void in the market. Lines are ridiculously overpriced for the most part. I don't get the why so many lines are over weighted by 1/2 or more weight. Use the standard set for weight in grains and call it what it is. I started using Cabelas branded fly lines which are made by SA and are half the price.

While I think fly rods are really expensive as a whole, I look at what top quality spinning and bait casting rods cost that are 7' long cost. Add a couple feet to that blank to make a fly rod and I can see some extra expense. Still $800 for a rod with 1 or 2 stripping guides and some wire snake guides don't equate to a rod that costs 2.5-4 times the cost of my best 7' casting rod. 

I wish more shops had opportunities to allow customers to cast a couple different rods before choosing. My casting style is different from my neighbors and we like different rods. Having the chance to cast a couple rods to compare how they felt in my hand was the best thing I did when buying a new rod instead of taking his suggestion of the best rod for me. If more people could try a few different rods that fit their preference before plunking down good money, there would be a lot more happy customers.

Reels are way over rated and way over priced. That being said, I'm a sucker for a CNC milled, shiny anodized aluminum, large arbor line collectors.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

Biggest beef?
To many people with to much time on their hands.

ya all go home please!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Ken T said:


> Thought I would chime in on the rod breakage issue. I normally guide 200+ days a year and have for 20+ years. I see rods break all the time. I also see every brand break. When graphite first hit the market, the early rods rarely lasted very long. People simply were not prepared for the fragility of the new technology. I think recently we are going through this again, but to a lesser degree.
> 
> With the newer fast, super light rods the odds of breakage certainly go up. When you look at how thin they are and how tiny the diameter of the blank is near the tip a lot can go wrong. Over the last few years the breakage of these newer lighter rods has been rising.
> 
> ...


Well put!


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