# Jon Cave performance Fly Casting



## jsnipes (May 1, 2011)

In the same vein, I enjoyed this article recently
http://www.orvis.com/news/fly-fishing/tuesday-tips-there-is-no-correct-casting-style/


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## ol' superskiff (Oct 22, 2015)

MariettaMike said:


> Picked this book up last Sunday while in the Keys, and found some new casting tips and flaw reminders. Its the simplest fly casting explanation I've ever read, and by the KISS principle, makes it the best book for me.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Performance-Fly-Casting-Illustrated-Guide/dp/0811707342


Jon Cave is a great teacher, my casting style was more like a lumberjack chopping wood than a fly caster back in the day. Jon has a very relaxed and patient style and taught me so much. He used to (and maybe still does) teach classes at Seminole CC for both casting and tying, best bargain on the planet.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Good article John. The study is correct, everyone, even the elite caster, has their own style based on body type, length of cast, rod weight etc. Once you have the basic fly cast down knowing how to get the fish to eat is the tough part. In other words, great casters are not always good at feeding the fish the fly.


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## redjim (Oct 16, 2012)

I feel Jon is one of the best fly instructors that you will ever run into. He still teaches casting mostly at his home in North Orlando. Not only is a great teacher he is a heck of a nice guy. 

Here is information on one of his upcoming classes at Renzetti in Titusville.

Jon B. Cave
PERFORMANCE FLY-FISHING SCHOOLS
presents

The Complete Fly-Fishing School: April 29 & 30
(Includes 1 full day of Fly-Casting/Fishing Instruction and an afternoon of Fly Tying Instruction)

Continuing Education for the Most Discriminating Angler

Sponsored by Renzetti Vise




The School
Jon Cave’s Performance Fly-Fishing School is one of the premier programs in the country. Thousands of students have attended his schools including guides, fly shop owners, staffs of fishing lodges, and casting instructors as well as avid anglers seeking the very best in fly-fishing instruction.

This highly comprehensive 1 ½ day course is designed to take both beginning and highly experienced anglers from the fundamentals of fly-fishing to the most advanced techniques. Because of the limited class size, Jon customizes the instruction for students based on their individual experience, ability, and needs. Consequently, individuals at all skill levels can benefit regardless of whether they’re making their first cast or just in need of a little tune-up.

Jon’s unique and easy-to-understand instruction includes lectures, PowerPoint presentations, demonstrations, visual aids, individual video analysis, and lots of patient one-on-one instruction to quickly make you the accomplished flyfisher you’ve always wanted to be. Over the course of 1 ½ days, you will be completely immersed in fly-fishing – everything from casting to fly tying to on-water experiences. Expectation of results is very high regardless of previous experience and we strive to help you attain the highest degree of proficiency. 

The main focus of the school is on casting techniques including various casting strokes, loop control, accuracy, distance, double-haul, and presentation as well as teaching many fly tying techniques. Knots, leader construction, equipment, fly tying techniques, and fly-fishing tactics for popular gamefish are among other covered topics. Our goal is to provide you with all-around skills that will serve you equally as well on various species that inhabit both fresh- and salt-water environments.

Classes will be held at the Renzetti Inc. facility in Titusville, Florida. 
8800 Grissom Pkwy
Titusville FL 32780
321 267 7705


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

jsnipes said:


> In the same vein, I enjoyed this article recently
> http://www.orvis.com/news/fly-fishing/tuesday-tips-there-is-no-correct-casting-style/


In response to this article. This is the method of teaching that I subscribe to. Many instructors will be hung up on a particular casting style. That can be ok if you are starting someone from nothing. But to take someone who has been casting for some time and is comfortable in that paticular style, and then try to completely re-train them on a fly caster's style, rather than improving the student within their own casting style, only confuses the student and makes for double the work. It's almost like completely re-training them all over from scratch and their uphill battle of mastering that form.

For many years, this was a problem for FFF (now IFFF). Since their beginning, their casting style mimicked casters like Joan Wulff, Jim Green, Jerry Siem and Mel Krieger. Basically an over head cast. The idea was if all the fly casting instructors agreed to teach one paricular style, then any FFF certified instructor could pick up where the other CI left off and continue to work with them. But that forced everyone to follow that same style of casting.

The overall style is not a bad one and can be modified to suit the caster and the conditions where they are casting in. But still, it doesn't always suit all casters and is easy to throw in every situation.

So along comes this guy named Lefty. His style and method looks pretty unconventional to them. Lefty approaches FFF to be an instructor and get certified with them since FFF is a standard in the fly fishing industry. But noses were turned up and Lefty was considered to be a rebel, citing his methods to being unconventional and would cause other CI's to have to fix their casting issues. So they didn't allow him to join in.

Many years went by and Lefty now had a huge following and people eager to learn his casting techniques. There were some new faces on their panel and convinced them that there are many different casting styles and that they should consider all and work with the students within their casting style. So eventually, they had no choice but to bring Lefty into the fold and call him their own. But even today Lefty will tell ya that he knows IFFF still considers him as a rebel. 

Since about 2000, I've been doing some casting instructions on and off here and there, every once in a while. I was never certified with FFF since I found I didn't prefer that style and method they teach. But after spending some time with some of the Master casting instructors with IFFF, I'm basically going down that road, since I've found that they have gone full circle and are now considering other methods. My goal is and has always been, to teach within the methods that one is comfortable in and to improve within that form. Tho IFFF would like me to teach their main staple method, I teach what is best for the student, especially in their casting conditions and situations.

The one point that this article mentioned and made clear is the point about the basic physics about any cast within any style and methods, all have a constant. The constant is that the fly line HAS to travel on a straight path back and forth to obtain maximum efficiency. Weather it be a form like Joan Wulff or Lefty or your own,the tip of the rod and therefore the path of the fly line needs to travel on both the horizontal and vertical planes.

NOTE: Remember that your rod tip doesn't have to travel perfectly horizontally. The path just as to be straight on both it's axis. You can throw the back cast up high and the front cast down low (or vise versa) or a side cast, etc. Just as long as the tip is traveling in a completely straight path, like an arrow. Also remember that what your back cast is doing is a direct correlation to what your front cast will do. So your rod tip has to travel straight going backwards as well. 

These illustrations explains what I'm talking about.



It doesn't matter if it's over head casting, side to side casting, casting at a 45 degree angle, back casting or even roll casting. It still needs to travels in a straight path. That is the biggest problems I see with all casters who need help, from beginners to advanced casters.

To wrap your head around this concept, try taking the butt section of the rod, or a 3ft section of broom handle or 1/2" PVC pipe and trace straight lines and edges both vertically and also horizontally, back and forth like you were fly casting, but slowly. That will show you and tell you what your arm and hand movement should be doing. The inside of a door jam will have a door stop ledge that will act as a guide both horizontally and vertically for the tip of that rod butt section, or added section or piece of broom handle or PVC pipe.

Start paying more closer attention to that on both your fwd and your back cast and watch your loops improve. 


Ted Haas


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

redjim said:


> I feel Jon is one of the best fly instructors that you will ever run into. He still teaches casting mostly at his home in North Orlando. Not only is a great teacher he is a heck of a nice guy.
> 
> Here is information on one of his upcoming classes at Renzetti in Titusville.
> 
> ...



Great info redjim! Definitely worth the road trip! Thanks for sharing! 

Nice to see you back on the fly board here.


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## redjim (Oct 16, 2012)

Ted and Mike thanks for posting this information!

Ted, you are so correct about the "straight line path"! It is a problem with many folks including myself at times. I really have to fight to keep that tip up (if throwing at 45 degrees or if throwing completely side-arm keeping the tip OUT).

Any chance one of you two fellows might advice for someone like me who drops the tip from time to time? 

I actually have gone back to retraining my muscle memory and it is not so easy to relearn!  

Thanks!


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

My biggest problem casting isn't the track of the rod tip, it's maintaining timing in my stroke. Far too often I find myself going too fast and not letting my back-cast fully load the rod because I'm trying to generate more line speed. Even when I'm double-hauling I can get too hurried in my stroke.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> My biggest problem casting isn't the track of the rod tip, it's maintaining timing in my stroke. Far too often I find myself going too fast and not letting my back-cast fully load the rod because I'm trying to generate more line speed. Even when I'm double-hauling I can get too hurried in my stroke.


I highly recommend you get Jon's book. I think the combination of the illustrations and corresponding text will help you to understand that the track of the rod tip is everything. I also think that's what Backwater is saying in his post too.

But if you can't wait, this is what I'm thinking. (I'm not a CCI, and I could be wrong.)

When you say you're going too fast that means to me that you're starting your forward cast before your back cast was optimally completed. When you do that the path of your rod tip starts by going above the optimum straight line path as shown in figure 2 of Backwater's post above.

When you say you're not letting your back-cast fully load the rod, you shouldn't. That will make the path of your rod tip start by going below the optimum straight line path as shown in figure 2 of Backwater's post above. 

The reason most casters go too fast is because that allows them to "swish" the rod forward faster and trick themselves into thinking they're increasing line speed. While in reality they are really just screwing up and wasting their opportunity to load the rod much deeper and that's what makes the line go faster. This is a common problem for me and many others. Especially when there's a tarpon or permit 40' away into a 20 mph wind.

Sometimes it is good to get a really slow light rod like a Winston 5wt so you can really see how loading the rod to where it bends down to half of its unloaded length to really get line speed for distance. If you don't have access to that then think of a long bow shooting an arrow. The more you load the bow, the faster and farther the arrow will fly.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> My biggest problem casting isn't the track of the rod tip, it's maintaining timing in my stroke. Far too often I find myself going too fast and not letting my back-cast fully load the rod because I'm trying to generate more line speed. Even when I'm double-hauling I can get too hurried in my stroke.


This was my biggest challenge as well.

I have to mentally remind myself to extend the stroke and slow down the timing as I shoot more line in the false casts.

Your timing HAS to change with each iteration (false cast) if you are shooting line...


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

MariettaMike said:


> *The reason most casters go too fast is because that allows them to "swish" the rod forward faster and trick themselves into thinking they're increasing line speed. While in reality they are really just screwing up and wasting their opportunity to load the rod much deeper and that's what makes the line go faster.* This is a common problem for me and many others. Especially when there's a tarpon or permit 40' away into a 20 mph wind.
> 
> Sometimes it is good to get a really slow light rod like a Winston 5wt so you can really see how loading the rod to where it bends down to half of its unloaded length to really get line speed for distance. If you don't have access to that then think of a long bow shooting an arrow. The more you load the bow, the faster and farther the arrow will fly.


This is pretty much it. And yeah, it happens most when there's a tarpon or red (only ever had 1 shot at a permit) 50' out in a 20mph headwind. It's that "swishing" or trying too much to muscle up for that last bit of distance/line speed. Like most people I think it's not so much an inherent flaw in their stroke but getting "buck fever" overrides the muscle memory.

I fish fiberglass quite a bit too and my casting with graphite rods is always markedly better immediately after because fiberglass forces you to slow down. It doesn't allow you to hide the flaws in your stroke as easily as graphite does.


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## RobA (Aug 21, 2015)

The book in the OP was illustrated by Joe Mahler and he made the illustration in Ted's post. I took a lesson from Joe when I first started, and improved more in those two hours than I have in the three years since. 

One of the biggest things I took from the lesson, and this may go towards what people are saying about going too fast, is that Joe could cast the line out perfectly at 80 to 100 feet with approximately the same amount of body movement and physical effort as it would take me to throw a wad of paper in the trash can across my office. Sometimes I'll be amped up casting to fish or into the wind, and find myself not casting well. In those situations I'll often find that I'm exerting a ton of effort, and with that comes more body movement, which in turn takes the rod out of a straight line path and me going too fast. Telling myself to exert less effort will slow me down and quiet my body movement, and usually results in better casts.

Disclaimer: I'm not a great caster.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

redjim said:


> Any chance one of you two fellows might advice for someone like me who drops the tip from time to time?
> !



Ok redjim I'm assuming you are saying when you drop your rod tip, you are saying you drop your rod tip on the "shoot!"

2 things..... 

1st, remember that the "final shoot" is just another casting stroke, not anything else you need to do extra to punch it out and no extra speed. When the rod loads on the final back cast, the work and effort was already done back there behine you and as you move the line forward on your forward stroke, all you need to do is release the line once it goes past you.

2nd - to help from dropping your rod and keeping your cast up high, especially on the final shoot, just imagine that your target is not the actual fish at the waterline or the spot on the water, but an imaginary target about 4ft off and up above the water. When you shot it, you allow your flyline and leader to completely unroll out and then drop the rod tip down to the water, which will allow the fly to gently settle on down the the water without spooking the fish. Otherwise, you are shooting to the water and crashing your fly on the water, thereby spooking the fish and not allowing it to completely unroll out, thereby piling it up on the water.


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## redjim (Oct 16, 2012)

Thanks Ted, very helpful!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

RobA said:


> The book in the OP was illustrated by Joe Mahler and he made the illustration in Ted's post. I took a lesson from Joe when I first started, and improved more in those two hours than I have in the three years since.
> 
> One of the biggest things I took from the lesson, and this may go towards what people are saying about going too fast, is that Joe could cast the line out perfectly at 80 to 100 feet with approximately the same amount of body movement and physical effort as it would take me to throw a wad of paper in the trash can across my office. Sometimes I'll be amped up casting to fish or into the wind, and find myself not casting well. In those situations I'll often find that I'm exerting a ton of effort, and with that comes more body movement, which in turn takes the rod out of a straight line path and me going too fast. Telling myself to exert less effort will slow me down and quiet my body movement, and usually results in better casts.
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm not a great caster.



Very, very good point Rob!! That's exactly what I was going to suggest to Finn. 

Yes, that was Joe's illustration.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

This was great reading. I think Lefty could cast a garden hose. He does not cast over head nor do I. I feel you can load the rod better with the rod slightly left of center ( I am left handed). Lefty's best advice is " speed up and stop". I don't claim to be a good fly caster but I can catch fish.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

permitchaser said:


> This was great reading. I think Lefty could cast a garden hose. He does not cast over head nor do I. I feel you can load the rod better with the rod slightly left of center ( I am left handed). Lefty's best advice is " speed up and stop". I don't claim to be a good fly caster but I can catch fish.


I'm sure lefty can. He can cast a fly line without a rod. But there is an interesting lesson when trying to make a garden hose unroll outlike a fly line loop. I've tried it, of all things. Ha! What you'll find is you are actually pulling the hose (by hand of course) to get it to go past you and the last movement is causing to roll on over itself. There are arm, hand and even some wrist movements in doing so.

But that is what fly casting is really about.... *It's not casting the fly line forward, but rather pulling the fly line from behind you (and vise versa).* The very last movement of the rod and the rod tip is simply causing the fly line to roll over onto itself, thereby forming a loop. Then the line projects itself past you. There is nothing more you can do to cause it to punch further out past you. Making it do more than that movement is a waste of energy and can actually hinder its path and energy transfer.

So here is an example (using keyboard characters) of your rod action (going from left to right). \\\\\\/

The majority of your action is *pulling, not pushing* the fly line. In other words, it's "pulling" the fly line in a completely straight path (not necessarily perfectly horizontal or parallel to the ground or water, but straight), starting slow and building up some speed for as long as necessary and the the last movement is flicking or snapping the fly rod tip over (a sudden stop at the end) to cause the fly line rolling process. As your fly line goes past the rod tip, the rod tip is still holding still in that position until it unrolls out. This is the action back and forth with false casting, allow the fly line to completely unroll out before starting the *pulling* in the opposite direction (180 degrees). Then at the point where you want to *"let it go,"* (which is *a better term than "shooting"*), you allow the line to go past you and completely unroll out with rod tip still up high, THEN you drop the rod, letting the fly settle down to the water.


Now go wrap your head around that! Ha! 

Ted Haas


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## Halfhitch (Feb 5, 2008)

Just a note of thanks for this thread.

I self-learned fly casting in the late 60’s by trial and error (mostly error), starting with a Shakespeare Wonder Rod and Martin 65 reel and level line of unknown origin, an outfit I was given. As I researched what information was available at the time (no internet), I heard of the ‘casting arc’ and the 10:00 to 2:00 stroke somewhere along the line. It was easy to picture: a clock (a _round_ clock) with the reel in the center moving the rod (including tip)_ in an arc from 10 to 2_ as on a clock. It seemed the rod tip would therefore start at 10:00, pass up and through 12:00, then down in the continued arc to 2:00 – a lot like swatting a fly – but on the forward cast, power and a ‘shove’ would be added to force the line ahead when released at 10. As can be imagined, the loops were huge, I frequently smacked the water on the backcast, the line failed to go very far and usually ended in a pile, out about 20-25 feet if I was lucky. I gradually improved enough to catch a few fish by modifying my cast a little over those first years, but didn’t really understand why it helped, mostly by adopting the old spin cast approach of throwing 'over the fence'. 

Went back into spin fishing for quite a few years, but again tried fly fishing in the 80’s (same rod and reel, which I still have and occasionally use, but with different line). Found a book, I believe one of Lefty’s, which finally graphically explained the casting motion – indeed a picture is worth a thousand words! – I had totally misunderstood the ‘arc’ and 10-2 idea - it’s not at all like swatting a fly. I’ve been a much better caster since then, and continue to improve, thanks to Lefty and others such as Jon Cave, whose book I have just ordered in the hopes of continuing that improvement. Threads such as this are so helpful as a reminder to continue to pay attention to form and avoid returning to old bad, unlearned or sloppy habits, particularly if not fishing as frequently as many of you do. To a new fly caster in the 60’s, just this thread, particularly with Ted’s descriptions, would have done wonders toward improving a newbie’s casting ability and enjoyment of the sport.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I have been fishing my 5 wt a lot for bass lately. It's not as fast as my other rods and coupled with a bigger fly and a stiff wind in the face it has been a good reminder that speeding up the tempo doesn't necessairly help. 

Actually quite the opposite, you just have to slow down and wait for the rod to load deeper into the blank. Since my 5wt isn't super stiff it trains you to wait for that feeling where the rod is loaded. If you can manage a tight loop while doing this you can get a long cast into the wind. As stated above, a tarpon 50 ft away into a 20 mph wind and my initial instinct has always been to try and speed up the cast and muscle it into the wind. I'm glad I have been forced to fish the 5wt lately. Headed to the keys in 2 weeks feeling very in tune with my casting.


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