# How light could a guy hand lay a Gheenoe NMZ hull?



## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

A 17' fiberglass canoe weighs about 60lbs and a 17' carbon/kevlar is about 23 lbs. Do the math and you'll have your answer.

However, it would not be as useful as you might think as it may be prone to cracking. Also, using an existing hull for a mold is called splashing and it is against the law because you are stealing someone else's design.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

DuckNut said:


> A 17' fiberglass canoe weighs about 60lbs and a 17' carbon/kevlar is about 23 lbs. Do the math and you'll have your answer.
> 
> However, it would not be as useful as you might think as it may be prone to cracking. *Also, using an existing hull for a mold is called splashing and it is against the law because you are stealing someone else's design*.


I'm not an IP lawyer but I think, legally, it would be OK if you splashed the hull for personal use only. It just becomes illegal if you try to profit from splashing the hull by selling additional models.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> I'm not an IP lawyer but I think, legally, it would be OK if you splashed the hull for personal use only. It just becomes illegal if you try to profit from splashing the hull by selling additional models.


I am not a lawyer either but I don't think there is an exception but they would have to catch you.

Boats have been splashed you decades and there has only been one lawsuit that I know of and that was Hells Bay suing Beavertail.


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

Mel once told me that he can build me a SM14 at around 80lbs. I wanted to have one built for that very thing. something to toss over fences, drag over levees, etc. 

I ended up with a regular SM14, weighing in at 150lbs. I can't carry it over a fence, but I can go anywhere the law allows with the mud motor. lol


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## BM_Barrelcooker (May 4, 2011)

DuckNut said:


> A 17' fiberglass canoe weighs about 60lbs and a 17' carbon/kevlar is about 23 lbs. Do the math and you'll have your answer.
> 
> H


where can I find a carbon kev 17' that weighs 23# ?


about 36# for a 16' is the best I've found . 

let me know quick because I'm getting ready to buy a 17' kevlar @ 44# this week.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Savage river is one that I know of but I am sure there are others.


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## Miragein (Aug 21, 2015)

East Cape's new Skanu looks interesting. The issue with the Gladesmen I found was no matter how light, it was still a bit too big/unwieldy to be a true one man rig to haul around easily without a trailer.


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## BM_Barrelcooker (May 4, 2011)

DuckNut said:


> Savage river is one that I know of but I am sure there are others.


Kinky linky?


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## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

Depends on how fast you want to go and how little abrasion resistance you could tolerate. If you want to paddle it, then you could make one out of 3/8"core with a 5oz kevlar cloth on the inside and maybe a 10 oz fabric on the outside, vacuum bag it and be in the 50lb range. If you wanted to add a 9.9, and be able to drag it over stuff, accidentally drop an anchor, stand in it when its on a trailer, and do all the other stuff you do with a gheenoe then probably about 130lbs.

You could make it a lot stiffer with 1/2" core, but you would need a layup like:
gelcoat, 1.5oz Matt, Let Cure
12 oz biaxial, 1/2" diviynal core, 12 oz biaxial, all under a vacuum bag.
Gelcoat interior
This layup is ~1.2 lb/ft^2


By the time you glass in bench seats, add gunnels, handles and other stuff you will be lucky if you break 130lbs, and you will have 3K in materials.

You have to have a certain amount of compressive strength in the hull. Resin provides this, and there is no amount of carbon fiber or kevlar that can be substituted for it. You just can't push a rope. Tensile strength is provided by the cloth. To have a boat that you can use like a boat, and not a delicate show piece, you have to have a certain amount of resin on the outside of the hull.


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Apr 4, 2015)

I’m not really concerned with Gheenoe going all YETI and suing me for splashing a hull for personal use. Technically speaking, you’d only be able to splash the bottom half anyway or you wouldn’t be able to pull it off the hull. I have a couple buddies with them but figured with as cheap and bad condition as some people buy them in to rebuild, you’d be better off buying one for the mold and starting from scratch.

It’s not comparable talking about carbon/kevlar vs fiberglass canoes because they aren’t planing hulls. You can build a skin on frame canoe with a sheet of visquene, but you couldn’t hang a 9.9 off the back.

Thinking about it today though, a planing Gheenoe highsider isn’t different enough from the skiff I’m currently building to be worth doing. I have been thinking about something along the lines of the Skanu though.

13’6” long so it will fit inside my cargo trailer/RV, 38” wide bottom tapering to 30” at the stern, some rocker to row well, a pair of canoe style seats, some wheels that attach to get it where you’re launching, and a 3.5 hp outboard. 75 lbs was my target goal and seems like it’s achievable.

It seems it’s really hard to beat a wood core/epoxy/fiberglass composite from a weight and durability standpoint. I have a 14’ pirogue I built that weighs 47 lbs. Carbon Marine built a 12’ one that weighs 39 lbs. That’s a 1.25 lb weight savings if you do the math comparing equal sizes.

I may start working on it after I get my current project done.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

BM_Barrelcooker said:


> Kinky linky?


savageriver.com


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## BM_Barrelcooker (May 4, 2011)

So should I spend 1k more for the 10 pounds it stick with my plans on a 44# 17’?

I’ve got a bad back.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

BM_Barrelcooker said:


> So should I spend 1k more for the 10 pounds it stick with my plans on a 44# 17’?
> 
> I’ve got a bad back.


lose 10lbs, it will help your back too


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## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

No canoe was designed to do 20 miles an hour, that's the difference. Running a boat in a chop, running it aground, it needs the strength of some extra glass. Gheenoe doesn't waste the money on fiberglass or materials without reason. If they could make them lighter why wouldn't they? The answer is because they're not strong enough. Gheenoe used to produce a "lowsider" that was less than 100 pounds hull weight. Very car toppable and portable. But it had lower freeboard than the newer NMZ models and a hell of a lot of them ended up flipped and swamped especially when powered with 9.9s or larger. In the end I believe most people would tell you that a larger and heavier hull was worth the extra weight. Even trying to car top a 100 pound canoe is a hassle compared to just getting a trailer.


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## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

BM_Barrelcooker said:


> So should I spend 1k more for the 10 pounds it stick with my plans on a 44# 17’?
> 
> I’ve got a bad back.



No, Safety First, If you have a bad back then you need a trailer.

I have spent a good deal of time in the boundary waters carrying one of those 44lb Kevlar canoes. Its not the weight of the canoe that hurts. Its the unsuspecting gust of wind, or an unseen tree branch that twists the canoe while its over your head that causes an injury.


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Apr 4, 2015)

jimsmicro said:


> No canoe was designed to do 20 miles an hour, that's the difference. Running a boat in a chop, running it aground, it needs the strength of some extra glass. Gheenoe doesn't waste the money on fiberglass or materials without reason. If they could make them lighter why wouldn't they? The answer is because they're not strong enough. Gheenoe used to produce a "lowsider" that was less than 100 pounds hull weight. Very car toppable and portable. But it had lower freeboard than the newer NMZ models and a hell of a lot of them ended up flipped and swamped especially when powered with 9.9s or larger. In the end I believe most people would tell you that a larger and heavier hull was worth the extra weight. Even trying to car top a 100 pound canoe is a hassle compared to just getting a trailer.


They don’t waste materials, but using lower grade materials like polyester resin and chopped strand fiberglass will always weigh more than epoxy/woven fiberglass cloth construction at a comparable strength. 

The idea isn’t to avoid a trailer, it’s to have a rig that’s easy to hand launch in a ditch like a kayak can. 

I’ve decided a planing hull doesn’t need to be part of the program though, and a 3.5 outboard would suffice.


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## privateer (Dec 6, 2013)

Pugar at Custom Gheenoe or the guys at Gheenoe have made a few lightweight boats. They’ll do it if you ask. My friend had a lightweight 13 that was supposed to be used with a trolling motor only. He actually set it up with a Yamaha 6hp. It was pretty sweet and super easy to handle.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

This is not an application for an ultralight hull. I’ve dragged more boats than most through the bushes, mostly Gheenoes, pirogues and a couple of small jonboats. In the process, we cracked a lot of chines and broke a lot of rails.

For ultralight construction, you can only design the hull to meet the maximum stresses under appropriate use. You cannot overbuild to account for abuse. Throwing a hull across a fence, dragging it down a deer trail to the water and getting into it without getting your feet wet while the bottom rests on a stump you didn’t realize was there are all abuse. If you do these things, you don’t need an ultralight hull.

You are trying to make a “real” boat that fits in a truck bed and is still light enough to conveniently man-handle. Such a creature does not exist. I’ve tried think up a bushwhacking hull that can handle a motor for longer runs. However, a bushwhacking hull has to be light enough for one man to easily carry or drag (max ~60-70#), yet tough enough to survive the process. If I design it for a motor, I always end up thinking of a hull that is too heavy to easily man-handle or would be too fragile to handle the abuse.

If you want a bushwhacking hull, skip the motor. Even a TM with battery gets annoying when you have to drag the hull and the motor over a fence, through the bushes and across the stumps/rip-rap to the point where the hull can actually float. In reality, you are not going to make a long enough run in this type of hull to justify the hassle of a motor. Oars, paddles and push poles are better in these small water scenarios. 

Lastly, a NMZ is too big for this job IMO. They are just too heavy. Sure, you can do it by yourself, but you will likely avoid using it over time because of the hassle. A 13’ would be a better choice.

Nate


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## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

I mean.. it's not exactly "hard" to launch an NMZ or 15'4 from a trailer in a roadside ditch or whatever. I've pulled one off the trailer a million times when the boat literally wasn't even in water deep enough to float. Even if you could cut the weight of the hull in half you'd still be looking at 60-70 pounds AND you'd still have a motor on the back adding another 40 pounds minimum, maybe more with gas and stuff. It all adds up to something too unweildy to really use the way you want to. I promise you this idea sounds better on paper than it actually is.


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## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

WhiteDog70810 said:


> This is not an application for an ultralight hull. I’ve dragged more boats than most through the bushes, mostly Gheenoes, pirogues and a couple of small jonboats. In the process, we cracked a lot of chines and broke a lot of rails.
> 
> For ultralight construction, you can only design the hull to meet the maximum stresses under appropriate use. You cannot overbuild to account for abuse. Throwing a hull across a fence, dragging it down a deer trail to the water and getting into it without getting your feet wet while the bottom rests on a stump you didn’t realize was there are all abuse. If you do these things, you don’t need an ultralight hull.
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same thing. A 14' plastic canoe is best for what you describe. One of these 500$ Walmart specials with a 2.3 air cooled Honda.


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Apr 4, 2015)

You guys are probably right, it’s not going to end up doing what I’d like. Just some mental masturbation. 

I really don’t even have a pressing need for it, I just enjoy building boats. My 14’ pirogue weighs 47 lbs and paddles like a bat out of hell, but it’s a bit fatiguing to stand in with a 25” wide bottom. I’m also working on an 18’ skiff with a 48” bottom and a 25 hp, but I realize I might miss some of the launching areas I’ve been able to access with my 110 lb jon boat.

The problem is that anything wide enough to stand up on comfortably isn’t going to be much good at paddling. I’ve spent more time in canoes and kayaks than motorboats, and am working on a SUP as well which may just have to be what I use for this idea.

The boat I’m thinking of building would probably be used with either 2 guys carrying it or a set of wheels like the Dragonfly Marsh Hen. I’m not particularly rough on my stuff, especially compared to most duck hunters that could break an anvil in a padded room.

I understand the abuse that takes place dragging and carrying a boat somewhere, but it’s much gentler the lighter it is. FWIW the pirogue I built for my FIL dropped 10’ onto concrete and it held up fine.


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## Tailer (Jan 10, 2017)

Some interesting thoughts in this thread. I would have enjoyed my NMZ a lot more if it weighed 90-100lbs. To be honest, I'm not sure how accurate that 130lbs estimate is for an NMZ. I have a Hobie Pro Angler 14 that supposedly weighs between 120lbs and 145lbs depending on how it's rigged. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it's significantly lighter than my old NMZ because I've car-topped both of them solo multiple times and the Hobie is a breeze compared to the NMZ despite the similar dimensions.

Having said all that, I don't think I'd go to all the trouble of splashing a Gheenoe hull and building it out of exotic materials. I know they have a cult following, but I found my NMZ to be too loud on the pole to fish in some of the areas I thought it would be perfect (winter snook ponds). Those flat chines slap if you just shift your weight. I’d imagine it’s a fine hull with two folks, a bunch of gear, and a trolling motor but it’s not a great poling canoe, it sucks to paddle, and it’s not really that much more stable than my Indian River canoe.


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## seapro17sv (Feb 3, 2015)

Tailer said:


> Some interesting thoughts in this thread. I would have enjoyed my NMZ a lot more if it weighed 90-100lbs. To be honest, I'm not sure how accurate that 130lbs estimate is for an NMZ. I have a Hobie Pro Angler 14 that supposedly weighs between 120lbs and 145lbs depending on how it's rigged. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it's significantly lighter than my old NMZ because I've car-topped both of them solo multiple times and the Hobie is a breeze compared to the NMZ despite the similar dimensions.
> 
> Having said all that, I don't think I'd go to all the trouble of splashing a Gheenoe hull and building it out of exotic materials. I know they have a cult following, but I found my NMZ to be too loud on the pole to fish in some of the areas I thought it would be perfect (winter snook ponds). Those flat chines slap if you just shift your weight. I’d imagine it’s a fine hull with two folks, a bunch of gear, and a trolling motor but it’s not a great poling canoe, it sucks to paddle, and it’s not really that much more stable than my Indian River canoe.


You may want to look at the Bateau plans for the SC16 which lists a weight of 175, but one of the builders, Capeman, built his as a car topper, and it came in right at 99 pounds, and I think he uses a 2.5 horse motor which moves it along pretty good. I'm including a few pics... The boat that I think might work for you though is the Honker 15. There are no pictures posted of a finished boat, but it is a very simple flat bottom 3 panel build using 5 sheets of 1/4" ply, and weighing in at 110 pounds built as planned, but I'm sure it can














it can be built lighter. I think it has nice lines, and would float in close to nothing.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

I keep looking at the Honker for this exact purpose also, but at ~100-110#, it is still too heavy for my taste. I think a SOF McInnis Bateau would perfect for this.

Nate


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

The Gheenoe is a "Tumble Home" Hull it requires a 2 piece mold ... There is a company in North Carolina that makes a boat that looks like a gheenoe but is built in a one piece mold where it remains until completed ;-) 

They are an awesome father and son team but at this moment I can't recall their name ...

They would be your best bet ... I will look for them for you ...

custom gheenoe is so busy building Lt-10's & 25's that they do not have time or desire to do a one off "project"


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

Found 'em !!!

Nice guy !!! answered his phone ...

http://www.northcarolinasportsman.com/details.php?id=13409


http://www.santeeboats.com/


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

BM_Barrelcooker said:


> So should I spend 1k more for the 10 pounds it stick with my plans on a 44# 17’?
> 
> I’ve got a bad back.


Didn't say you should. You asked for the link and I provided.

Nate is right - this is not an appropriate application.


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## BM_Barrelcooker (May 4, 2011)

DuckNut said:


> Didn't say you should. You asked for the link and I provided.
> 
> Nate is right - this is not an appropriate application.



You took me wrong....that was a real question. I went with the 44#


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

BM_Barrelcooker said:


> You took me wrong....that was a real question. I went with the 44#


Ahhh.

23# is for serious paddlers - just don't hit anything with it.


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