# Pre-Build: Looking for Input on 14' Stumpknocker



## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Hey guys, just signed up after buying my first boat. I've been browsing here for a while as I was looking for a starter boat/mini project.

I'm not looking to do a total overhaul, I don't have the skills yet. But I am wanting to plan out some modifications on this boat to help me learn some new skills.

Thinking about building a casting deck from the front bench seat to the bow and maybe build a back casting deck and enclose the fuel tank and rear battery.

I'm also planning on some fresh paint and maybe kiwi grip or similar for the floors.

What do y'all think???


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## Gamecock89 (May 30, 2015)

that thing looks like it would make a really nice duck boat. I like the ideas you have for and can't wait to see the progress


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Remember that if you completely close in a gas tank, you have to vent outside or gas fumes may build up. I would go with an open bulkhead so that you don't have to deal with venting outside


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

yobata, I had not thought that far ahead but was planning on if nothing else having two hatches on the top of the deck so I could open them up to fill up the tank more easily. But that would likely still not vent enough of the fumes. Cutting an opening into the face of the rear bench seat would not be an issue and would solve that problem. Thanks for the heads up!

I'm also following your build thread and was very interested in your thoughts on the graphite in the epoxy. I am considering doing something like that or applying monstaliner to exterior of my hull. 

Since I live just outside of Knoxville, TN I'm more likely to rub against some rocky tailwater river banks than a sandbar or oysters. 

Gamecock, any other idea immediately pop into your head that you'd consider doing? I'm sure you guys in here with more experience can think of things that would never cross my mind.

Thanks for the input so far!


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

EastTNoutdoorsman said:


> yobata, I had not thought that far ahead but was planning on if nothing else having two hatches on the top of the deck so I could open them up to fill up the tank more easily. But that would likely still not vent enough of the fumes. Cutting an opening into the face of the rear bench seat would not be an issue and would solve that problem. Thanks for the heads up!
> 
> I'm also following your build thread and was very interested in your thoughts on the graphite in the epoxy. I am considering doing something like that or applying monstaliner to exterior of my hull.
> 
> ...


Having put the graphite/epoxy on about 2 weeks ago, I can tell you that it is incredibly hard now - I tried nicking it with my fingernail and it didn't budge, even a flat head screwdriver didn't gouge or ding it up. I'm really pleased with the strength of it, however I have yet to actually use it on the water and am still a bit concerned with exposure to UV. The advice I have received has said that since the epoxy is opaque now that it doesn't degrade like plain clear exposed epoxy under UV radiation, but again, not having wet the boat yet I'm still a bit concerned...


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

yobata said:


> Having put the graphite/epoxy on about 2 weeks ago, I can tell you that it is incredibly hard now - I tried nicking it with my fingernail and it didn't budge, even a flat head screwdriver didn't gouge or ding it up. I'm really pleased with the strength of it, however I have yet to actually use it on the water and am still a bit concerned with exposure to UV. The advice I have received has said that since the epoxy is opaque now that it doesn't degrade like plain clear exposed epoxy under UV radiation, but again, not having wet the boat yet I'm still a bit concerned...


Is about a week or two suggested for the curing time? The more I plot and plan the more I think I'm getting ahead of myself, after all, this is my first boat. As I keep looking for ideas and possibilities I'm beginning to realize that while I think I know what I'd like change I can't really say for sure having not spent any real time on the water yet.

My latest thought has been putting in a temporary front casting deck covered with cheap paint (rustoleum??). And put something on the bottom of the hull to protect it during this season, because I'll be launching it solo frequently. But beyond that putting the updates on hold until I know for sure what bench seats to remove, if I want to add wider gunwales to help block some spray, etc. etc. etc.

With that long winded dissertation out of the way, how long does that bottom coat need to cure before I can get the boat back in the water? I think that's where my time is best spent. With the boat wet so I can make more informed decisions.

Thanks again for the help!!


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

I let my epoxy/graphite coatings cure for 3 days, then flipped the boat. That was 2+ weeks ago because I'm still working on the inside. If you do the outside first you will end up spending plenty of time working on inside to get it fully cured imo


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

I am really happy with how my graphite-epoxy bottom has held up in duck boat applications. I have some work to do on my hull's bottom this weekend, so I'll post some pics on my thread. The repairs are not the graphite's fault.

Nate


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

yobata said:


> Having put the graphite/epoxy on about 2 weeks ago, I can tell you that it is incredibly hard now - I tried nicking it with my fingernail and it didn't budge, even a flat head screwdriver didn't gouge or ding it up. I'm really pleased with the strength of it, however I have yet to actually use it on the water and am still a bit concerned with exposure to UV. The advice I have received has said that since the epoxy is opaque now that it doesn't degrade like plain clear exposed epoxy under UV radiation, but again, not having wet the boat yet I'm still a bit concerned...





EastTNoutdoorsman said:


> Is about a week or two suggested for the curing time?


Epoxy doesn't take 2 weeks to get hard. If it kicks (i.e. it isn't too cold or mixed wrong), it is hard, but still very flexible in 4-8 hours. It is easier to sand out to 24 hours. At 48 hours, it is hard and can be fractured out of your mixing cups and sanding becomes more difficult. The graphite just makes it harder. I let the graphite mix go past 48 hours before I sanded it a couple of times. While I won't say it was exactly like polishing marble, there were similarities. I just chipped a bunch off the bottom of my hull and can verify that graphite epoxy is very tough even over delaminated areas. There were absolutely no spiderweb fractures from hitting things.

To my understanding, graphite doesn't offer any UV resistance. It is just on the bottom of the hull where UV degradation isn't a problem. In a post on Bateau.com, Jacques warned a guy not to store or carry his boat upside down if he graphite coated the bottom. He said the epoxy would degrade due to the UV exposure and the black bottom would get so hot it would thermally degrade the epoxy also. For a point of reference, epoxy gets more amber colored and brittle as it degrades.

Nate


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

WhiteDog70810 said:


> To my understanding, graphite doesn't offer any UV resistance. It is just on the bottom of the hull where UV degradation isn't a problem. In a post on Bateau.com, Jacques warned a guy not to store or carry his boat upside down if he graphite coated the bottom. He said the epoxy would degrade due to the UV exposure and the black bottom would get so hot it would thermally degrade the epoxy also. For a point of reference, epoxy gets more amber colored and brittle as it degrades.
> 
> Nate


That is interesting. He (Jacquez) told me about a month or so ago that once you put the graphite in and the epoxy becomes opaque, that it does NOT degrade. Maybe that Bateau post was older and he has learned something new since then??

I was worried about the bow of my skiff where UV rays could reflect back up from the water...


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

It was a long time ago, so I may be misquoting Jacques. The exposure of a boat bottom is minimal regardless, so it really doesn't matter.

Nate


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

How long does it actually take? If I have epoxy outside in the sun (driveway let's say), what is the time frame? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months?


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

It takes a while, but if you store it outside, the time adds up. However, Brett's Grass Slipper is epoxy over ply with no paint. He stores it out of the sun and it is still going strong. He posted a pic that showed the difference between the color of the epoxy under his registration sticker after a couple of years. You could see how the epoxy darkened with UV exposure.

Nate


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Hey all, I'm resurfacing my original thread as I'm ready to make some updates to the boat having used it for a season. 

I'm in the process of planning my attack and had a couple questions.

If I remove some floatation foam and have no where else to add it back could I put a layer of closed cell foam from HD on the floor and epoxy a false deck over it? As of now there are no stringers or false floor so would I be crazy to go this route?

Second, I build a simple box for my battery and a switch panel adjacent to a bench seat is it better to coat the wood with epoxy or would a marine grade paint be acceptable. It would not be structural. Just secured to a hatch in a bench seat. 


Thanks for your help!


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Hey all, I started the modification process this weekend and have a few pics to show.
Here is the first one with most of the rear bench seat removed:



The pile of guts:



And here is the newly vacated stern:




There was less foam than I thought there would be, and it was pretty soaked. So I'm really happy that I decided to gut it and get that extra weight out of there.

The new rear deck will be about 3 feet deep bringing me right up to the middle bench seat which I plan to mount a grab bar to with at least a shelf for my FF/depth finder. 

Here is a picture showing from the transom to the bow:



The idea of putting in a false floor is now out because there was less styrofoam removed that I thought there would be. So my next step is to figure out exactly how I want the rear deck to be supported.

I'd appreciate any insight you guys might have about where it would be best to put back in the foam vs. where to put in storage hatches. (Foam in the corners against the transom and gunwale? Or hatches in the corners and the foam up under the front of the deck?

Either way, I plan on an open bulkhead for the gas tank as previously recommended to remove the venting issue.

Also, by extending the deck forward I no longer plan on building a battery box. It will be included under the larger deck.

After using the boat last year I have much better idea of what I want to do to her. Once the rear deck is completed I still plan on extending the bow cap into a larger casting deck.

Hope you guys enjoy watching the process. And please chime in with any suggestions or tips! This is my first attempt at any fiberglass work so what may be common knowledge to you, is new to me!


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Your plan sounds good so far.

For future reference, don't go halfway on anything. If the boat is decked out in treated ply that is painted for water resistance, build whatever you want out of treated ply and paint it. It will all wear out around the same time that way.

If you deck it in fiberglass composite, make everything out of FG composite so you don't have parts falling apart early.

I've caught a lot of fish out of old boats that were really low budget. I don't care how anyone chooses to get on the water, but don't mix your mediums.

Nate


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Thanks for the vote of confidence Nate. The plan is to give fiberglass a try so I can go through any learning/growing pains on this boat and not one in the future.

Whether I move on to the bow in the near future will depend on the cost of epoxy and FG. But any modifications done I plan on doing "right" the first time so I don't have to redo them in the future.

Any idea how much epoxy/FG I will need for the rear deck? Call the platform 3'x4' plus the framing for the bulkheads. Some ply I have already is 1/2 or 5/8 I don't recall off hand.

From my understanding I'm best to coat everything once with a layer of epoxy to ensure the wood doesn't soak up too much and starve the FG. But I'm unsure how many layers and of what type of FG to use. One layer of 6oz woven for the bulkheads and supports and two layers for the deck??


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Jump in! Epoxy is pretty easy to figure out. I advise you to measure the epoxy to hardener ratio by weight, not by pumps. Those pumps are hard to keep count of and the proportions matter! Read the temp ranges for the hardener and make sure it is warm enough or provide auxiliary heat when it isn't. Use up that medium hardener before summer time and switch to slow hardener until you are REALLY comfortable with the technique.

Start with a 3 gallon medium hardener kit. You don't need to buy it all up front. 3 gallons was a good purchase increment for me. It will give you enough for the back deck with some left over.

The glass schedule depends on the wood. The following very general rules of thumb presume all decks are supported at least every 16" and all unglassed surfaces are epoxy coated. 

If you make flat 1/2" decks, you can simply glass the top with 6 oz. If you made cambered 3/8" decks, you could still only use 6 oz on top. If you used flat 3/8", I'd use 6 oz top and bottom. If you made a cambered 1/4" deck, I'd use 6 oz top and bottom. If you use marine fir, you should glass both sides to prevent checking regardless of thickness.

I used 1/4" for my cambered decks with a single layer of 6 oz and, while it is stiff when it is cool, it flexes slightly in the heat. Knowing what I know now, I'd glass BOTH sides of the entire hull and all decks and bulkheads with at least a single layer of 6 oz and spec the ply accordingly; 3/8" for flat decks and bulkheads and 1/4" for cambered decks.

Nate


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

No new pictures to post yet but did cut up some 2" thick extruded polystyrene insulation board to replace the discarded styrofoam. I also cut out some cardboard templates to begin fitting in the bulkheads. Hoping to get those cut out and dry fit by the end of the weekend.

As I start getting those steps done I'll add some more pictures.


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Still no noteworthy pictures. But have another question: If I trim better with my battery mounted in the middle bench seat, but the cables from my outboard don't reach that far...should I just buy longer cables to reach the battery directly? Or would it be easier to buy a second cranking battery to keep in the stern, keep larger deep cycle mid boat, and run the batteries in series? 

The outboard has a pull start but the manual states it needs to be connected to a battery. I wonder if the alternator would still charge the deep cycle if the batteries were connected in series?

I want to keep the wiring as simple as possible as I do not have a false floor to run wires through so I'm trying to place the battery & fuse/switch panel right next to each other. That means either right below the future grab bar and mount the panel to it. Or battery needs to go under the new rear deck and I just have to hope it's far enough forward.

I'm a big dude at 6'6 and 260 so getting some weight forward is only going to help out not hurt!


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Get longer cables. Use 6 gauge tinned marine wire to limit the resistance.

Does it have an electric start you haven't mentioned? Did you or a previous owner pull the starter and ignition at some point?

My experience is that the outboard's alternator won't do much to top off a deep cycle under heavy trolling motor use during an average run. It only is meant to top off a crank battery in preparation for the next crank, but if you don't need one, I guess your nav lights will never go out. Weird.

We ran a 12 volt system with a Perko switch in an old boat. The Perko switch allowed us to use the motor to charge the deep cycle during runs instead of the crank. It never really caught up during the day. If we forgot to give some love to the crank battery, we drained both the deep cycle and crank battery severely enough that we had to manually start a 70 hp motor. Those were proud moments.

Nate


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Longer cables it is. The outboard is new and has an electric start; it's a 20 hp so pull starting is a breeze. This past year I've been running it on a combination deep cycle/cranking battery that has worked fine. I haven't yet done many long runs on the trolling motor and haven't had an issue...

...speaking of issues! I decided to stop burying my head in the sand and drill some pilot holes into the transom; just to be safe...Any guess what I found??

So it looks like I'm jumping fully in and going to replace the transom while I'm at it. The inner and outer glass surfaces are solid; but I'm not sold on SeaCast. I think on something this small where I have such unobstructed access to the transom I'm just going to cut out the inner layer of glass and replace it with fully coated ply.

Coosa may be lighter, but it's WAY more expensive. If I seal everything up with epoxy the plywood core shouldn't need replacing again until my son is old enough to learn to do this stuff...and my wife and I are still a few years away from thinking about kids.


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Made some more progress yesterday afternoon tearing into the transom. It was about what I expected.




Here's the outer skin with as much wood as I could get removed.



And because I was on a roll and figured if I'm going through all the trouble, why not just cut out the front bench also...



And finally, some of the fiberglass on the bow cap was cracked so when I went to cut out that section I found this:



So instead of extending the bow cap, I'll be replacing it.

This is where I stand right now:



Today I plan to cut the rest of the bow cap off and grind off the rest of the transom skin. If all goes well hopefully start cutting the new transom core and some bulkheads this weekend.


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Bow cap got removed and I took a borrowed angle grinder to most places where the benches were removed. Made much quicker work than 50 grit sand paper. 

Tomorrow I'll finish the grinding and will at least make some templates for the bulkheads.

Some hatches and switch/fuse panel are on order as well.


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

No pictures of the bare bow or ground down bench seats but I did get the transom core cut out this morning. 

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%5BURL=http://s1333.photobucket.com/user/j...975E-2D4F7CFB6697_zpsgzddzdkf.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Here are the three pieces of ply clamped together and sanded so they are uniform. I plan on laminating them all together for a little practice with the epoxy and not just using wood glue between the sheets with one outer layer of epoxy. 

Once the middle sheet is laminated to the surface sheets I'll glass it all in; again for practice laying glass down. Once they are glassed together I'll glass them in to the outer skin of the transom and tab them up the sides and along the floor. 

Should be more solid that when it was built!


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Looks like posting pictures from my phone doesn't work. Operator error I'm assuming.

Got the 3 transom pieces laminated this morning. The epoxy wasn't as hard to work with as I thought, but I probably could have used more "ketchup" laminating the first two pieces together, not much oozing out. But plenty on the second layer. Shouldn't be an issue in the long run once all three sheets are glassed together. 

Going to mix up some peanut butter and fillet around where the new transom will go tomorrow and hope to cut out some bulkheads. 

Still waiting on my order of glass to show up so the transom install will likely be this weekend. But did get in touch with a local welding shop to fab a grab bar with shelf to mount my FF. 

Once this weekend is wrapped up hopefully it will look more like a boat than a shell!


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Been a while since my last update. Nothing major was getting done day to day so updates felt unnecessary. That said the transom is 95% complete. I've glassed it it, cut out what felt like an enormous 1.25" hole for the drain, and put in some thickened epoxy to fill in that gaping hole. I didn't thicken it quite enough so there will be one more application of a little thicker mix before I cut the 1" drain hole back through the epoxy.

On that note, do I even really need a drain tube inside that hole? To me it seems like unnecessary work to put in a tube coated in 5200, and crimp/flare it on the other side. Any reason I can't just stick my plug in "as is" once the hole is cut into the epoxy?

Also, I met with a fabricator this weekend who is going to weld up a grab bar and storage box. So more pictures (worth posting) will be coming up soon.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Once the epoxy (or thickened epoxy) makes a collar where the water cannot get to your transom ply, you are ok. On my skiff I added one similar to this so that I would never forget to bring one with me:








(Mine has 3 screw holes, use 5200 on the install still)

The downside, it isn't easily removed like the tube and stopper style so if you were swamped with water you can't just pull the plug and get on plane to drain the water. A properly working bilge pump is required.


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Glad that my inclination wasn't off. I've considered a drain similar to yours, and will be adding a bilge pump either way.

With the size of my rear deck putting me about 3 feet from the transom I'd rather let the pump do the work. I will just need to keep a few spares on board if I stick with the normal plugs.


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

It's been a while since I posted a solid update so here we go...

Here is the previously attempted pictures of the transom core and removed bow cap:





The next step was filleting and tabbing in the transom:




That was just the first layer of glass to go down after tabbing in with 4" tape. I "forgot" to take pictures as I added the extra layers and created the cap. I had three go around with copious air bubbles trying to make the cap. I finally learned my lesson and took the angle grinder to the cap to really round over the edges and I finally got everything to stick.

I'm also still struggling with the drain hole, but that's all my fault. I cut the oversize hole and filled it in just fine. But I have found that a spade bit is the wrong tool for the job. I keep boring out too large of a hole. I think I'm on attempt number 3? haha. I tried using my 7/8" hole saw and it cut a much better hole, but still too small and not worth trying to file it larger. So I'll make another batch of the thick stuff, plug the butt again (as my wife likes to comment) and after taking some digital calipers to the drain plug cut one final butthole (hopefully). I'll use the calipers to see if I'm better off with 15/16 than 1". My thought is perhaps the 1" drain tubes are OD and the 1" drain plugs are made to fit the ID of that tube. Who knows, but I'm learning as I go.

In the meantime, I've also gotten the rear bulkhead in along with the deck supports:


Then the supports to create the "tunnel" for the gas tank and the storage hatches:


And also, the front bulkhead:


Still more tabbing in place and need to make a few more dividers to separate the floatation compartments from the dry storage in the rear; along with two more dividers up on the bow to make an anchor locker, and also have another compartment, for flotation between the locker and the open bulkhead already in place.

Getting very closer to hanging the motor back on it and taking it for a wet test. Once that is done I will decide on the thickness of the front deck. I might go with thicker ply for some extra weight once I see how it floats. I'd love to just slap on some Lenco tabs but for this boat and my budget I just can't do it right now. 

I just need to get it where I don't porpoise when running solo, hopefully without adding 150#'s of sand like I had to do prior to starting the build!


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

EastTNoutdoorsman said:


> On that note, do I even really need a drain tube inside that hole? To me it seems like unnecessary work to put in a tube coated in 5200, and crimp/flare it on the other side. Any reason I can't just stick my plug in "as is" once the hole is cut into the epoxy?


Lord, I hope there isn't a problem with just drilling a hole and plugging it. That is exactly what I did. I didn't even over-drill and refill. By that time in the build, I was DONE and wanted to be on the water and not in my garage. I drilled a hole in the transom, sealed it with neat epoxy using my finger than repeated the process with graphite epoxy.
http://www.microskiff.com/threads/i-am-not-just-talking-anymore.17295/page-14
http://www.microskiff.com/threads/i-am-not-just-talking-anymore.17295/page-14

This is how I drilled the drain. That bit isn't a spade and it isn't a Forschner; it is kinda in the middle. These are more common than spade bits at Lowe's/HD/etc anymore. While that drill guide is not as square as I hoped it would be due to mounting on the slightly wonky neck of the drill, I got a 1.1" hole according to my calipers. My plug doesn't leak. 










Nate


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## EastTNoutdoorsman (Feb 29, 2016)

Nate, my problem comes from free handing the hole. No plunger guide like in your picture. My calipers have had a dead battery for months otherwise I would have used them the first time everything didn't go as planned. But then I thought "this time it'll work" no need for calipers...I've wised up and picked up the battery.

My issue wasn't leaking so much as a plug that could almost get pushed through! The hole saw did work perfectly for anyone else who might not have a guide for their drill like you have. 7/8 was just a little too small. I'm that's why I'm using the calipers next time...I'm over all this butt stuff!


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

By the time you need the calipers, it is too late.

I'd smear mold release wax on 1" OD tube of some sort and epoxy around it and then knock it back out once it kicks.

Nate


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

WhiteDog70810 said:


> By the time you need the calipers, it is too late.
> 
> I'd smear mold release wax on 1" OD tube of some sort and epoxy around it and then knock it back out once it kicks.
> 
> Nate


This! Or simply use the actual ferrule and tape it up with packing tape. Epoxy doesn't stick to plastic tapes


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