# Best Tippet/Leader Connections - Breaking Strength Test



## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

Will be interesting to see your test results. I've done a few knot tests although they were much more simple and I've done a fair bit of drag testing as well. Surprising what you can learn about how well you rig your gear and how you use it.


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## Ryan_Montesino (Feb 5, 2015)

I suggest the first thing you do is take whatever line you plan on using over to Jack Vitek at IGFA and have the line tested first. You have to go there anyways to have your scale certified and bring $100 because you have to sign up to be a member for a year. Most lines over test. Rio makes a IGFA tippet the test under but I’d have them break it first to be sure. If not you’re just wasting your time if you catch the fish and your line over tests.


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## Geologist (Nov 20, 2020)

Good stuff - I'll follow this one.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Why aren't you just starting with the knots the guys who chase records all the time use? Surely each person ties knots a bit differently but there is already a ton of information on knot strength. Pick the knots that have historically tested the best then use the material you plan to use and tie those same knots and see what results you get. Now if you just enjoy tying and testing knots then by all means go for it. But seems you are trying to reinvent the wheel?


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

ifsteve said:


> Why aren't you just starting with the knots the guys who chase records all the time use? Surely each person ties knots a bit differently but there is already a ton of information on knot strength. Pick the knots that have historically tested the best then use the material you plan to use and tie those same knots and see what results you get. Now if you just enjoy tying and testing knots then by all means go for it. But seems you are trying to reinvent the wheel?


What knots do they use and which knots have historically tested the best? I've done plenty of research online about the strongest knots. Pretty sure the 3 turn surgeons was the strongest mono to mono knot that saltstrong had tested and the 2 and 4 turn surgeons that I tested were stronger (in this application which was fluro to mono). That's why I like to conduct my own tests.

As far as I know the strongest line to line knot will be some form of a bimini and I would rather not tie that if I can find a regular knot that performs close to a bimini. 

To be honest I'm looking for the strongest knot that I can tie "rather easily" and one that is not bulky since I'm going after very line shy fish. If an easily tied small knot is only 5% weaker than a complicated bulky knot I'll just use it instead.

I'm not sure how testing my own knots is considered "reinventing the wheel". I tie all my own leaders (not just for chasing records) and I already learned that my go-to knot (3 turn surgeons) is not the best choice. I can tie a 2 turn surgeons faster and it's stronger.

I do like conducting tests like these because I'm learning what MY knots break at and it gives me a better understanding of their capability. I've done a lot of testing with 20-50lb fluoro and I can consistently bottom fish with 18lbs of drag on a 30lb leader because I have found the best knot for the job through testing....

The reason I am posting my results on here is to provide data to people who are curious about which knots perform better than others. If you are using knot "A" and knot "B" is easier to tie, smaller, and stronger why not make the switch?


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

Ryan_Montesino said:


> I suggest the first thing you do is take whatever line you plan on using over to Jack Vitek at IGFA and have the line tested first. You have to go there anyways to have your scale certified and bring $100 because you have to sign up to be a member for a year. Most lines over test. Rio makes a IGFA tippet the test under but I’d have them break it first to be sure. If not you’re just wasting your time if you catch the fish and your line over tests.


Good advice. I found an article where the IFGA tested many different tippets on the Instron and rio tested at 11.5lbs which is why I chose it. The majority of the larger sized lines tested under but there were several that tested over. Obviously sending my exact line in would be the best choice. The good news is the fish weigh roughly the same for 12 and 16lb tippet so if the 12lb over tests it doesn't really matter. But even better than that is that 12lb tippet line class is actually 6kg line class. 6kg weighs 13.22lbs so as long as my line is under 13.22lbs it counts in the 12lb/6kg line class. We have certified scales at the Marina. There's really no point in getting my boga certified because you can't weigh a fish on the boat anyway it must be done on dry land.


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## Loogie (Jul 24, 2019)

It sounds like you are not proficient at tieing the Uni to uni knot, you might want to redo your test after getting proficient at cinching that knot down, just a suggestion.

Can you test the breaking strenght of a double 8 huffangle Loop?


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Mdees88 said:


> What knots do they use and which knots have historically tested the best? I've done plenty of research online about the strongest knots. Pretty sure the 3 turn surgeons was the strongest mono to mono knot that saltstrong had tested and the 2 and 4 turn surgeons that I tested were stronger. That's why I like to conduct my own tests.
> 
> As far as I know the strongest line to line knot will be some form of a bimini and I would rather not tie that if I can find a regular knot that performs close to a bimini.
> 
> ...


You answered your own question. If you are serious about chasing records then you need to get good at tying a bimini. Dont ask me for advice I don't use it...lol. A much simpler knot to try if you want to double a ine and use and easy knot is a spider hitch.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

ifsteve said:


> You answered your own question. If you are serious about chasing records then you need to get good at tying a bimini. Dont ask me for advice I don't use it...lol. A much simpler knot to try if you want to double a ine and use and easy knot is a spider hitch.


I don't think a Bimini will work for attaching my bite tippet. IFGA rules only allow 12" knot to knot so I'll lose several inches of bite tippet and I'd rather not do that. What I'm looking for is an 85% strong knot that's not ridiculously complicated to tie. I need to use at least 6lbs of drag and I should be able to do that with 12lb line and an 85% knot.

I could step up to 16lb which would be more forgiving but then I risk my line over rating to 20lb and the 12lb line class fish is a little bit smaller than the 16. If the sharks are bad I'm just going to use 16 with 8-9lbs of drag.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

Tallest hurdle is gonna be the change in diameter of the two lines, next part is properly seating each and every knot, finally comes the difference in hardness of the two materials. I think you will find that the traditional knots used are going to test out about like everyone thinks. There is a reason they are well used.

Are you going to use a bite tippet or just 12 lb. fluoro to the fly?


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

Loogie said:


> It sounds like you are not proficient at tieing the Uni to uni knot, you might want to redo your test after getting proficient at cinching that knot down, just a suggestion.
> 
> Can you test the breaking strenght of a double 8 huffangle Loop?


I'm definitely not and that's why I mentioned it. My new scale will be here next week and I plan on trying it again but I think the reason there's no set number of turns is because the knot can slip and you need more turns with smaller diameter lines and less turns with larger diameter lines, from what I've read.

Are you cinching each knot as tight as possible before pulling the two knots together? That just doesn't seem right to me. Having two fully cinched knots sliding down several inches of mono towards each other. I cinch them down good but not as tight as humanly possible (I do wet the knots and the mono in between then before cinching and sliding them together). Once they are together I cinch as tight as possible....

Once I test these line to line knots I will test loops and I will check that one out.




Hank said:


> Tallest hurdle is gonna be the change in diameter of the two lines, next part is properly seating each and every knot, finally comes the difference in harness of the two materials. I think you will find that the traditional knots used are going to test out about like everyone thinks. There is a reason they are well used.
> 
> Are you going to use a bite tippet or just 12 lb. fluoro to the fly?


30lb fluoro bite tippet. I realize I will have to test that particular connection too because of the different line diameters.


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## Pudldux (Mar 3, 2016)

I think the allbright knot is low 90%. Killer knot for different diameter lines and very easy to tie. Also regardless of the knot you tie put chapstick on your lips then to the line.


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## sevenweight (Sep 3, 2015)

Mdees88 said:


> ..I need to use at least 6lbs of drag and I can do that with 12lb line and an 85% knot....


How are you measuring 6 lbs.? Directly in-line with the reel or pulling with the rod strung? You’ll never get away with 6 lbs on the reel and 12 lb line.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

sevenweight said:


> How are you measuring 6 lbs.? Directly in-line with the reel or pulling with the rod strung? You’ll never get away with 6 lbs on the reel and 12 lb line.


I will pull the fly line all the way through the rod then attach the scale to the loop in the backing and set the drag with a bow in the rod. I set all my offshore reel drags with a scale and always do it through the rod, never at the reel. Will do the same with the fly reel.


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

what are you fishing for? a 20 lb bite tippet seems pretty weak for anything significant. otherwise why bother with tying 20 to 12 to 20? Also, the reason you'd get your boga certified is to be sure you're testing using calibrated equipment and therefore getting results you can trust. 

tarpon aside pretty much my entire leader arsenal is done with blood knots. significantly dissimilar diameters get joined with improved blood knots, doubling over the smaller line and completing the knot. I'll be curious to see your results when you get around to blood knots.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

tailwalk said:


> what are you fishing for? a 20 lb bite tippet seems pretty weak for anything significant. otherwise why bother with tying 20 to 12 to 20? Also, the reason you'd get your boga certified is to be sure you're testing using calibrated equipment and therefore getting results you can trust.
> 
> tarpon aside pretty much my entire leader arsenal is done with blood knots. significantly dissimilar diameters get joined with improved blood knots, doubling over the smaller line and completing the knot. I'll be curious to see your results when you get around to blood knots.


I'm fishing for mangrove snapper. My bite tippet is 30lb fluoro. My leader is 40/30/20/12lb tippet/30lb bite tippet. I'm testing the 20 to 12 connection and will test the 12 to 30 connection also. The reason I'm tying 20 to 12 to 20 in my tests is this lets me test 10 knots with only 5 pull tests. The results shown are the weakest 5 out of 10 knots. It's a better sample size.

The IFGA has never had a boga grip fail certification so I really do not feel the need to pay them $40 to certify mine, especially since the certification only lasts a year. Like was mentioned earlier, I do recall reading that you had to be a member somewhere but not sure if that is still the case, it doesn't mention that on the IFGA's website. I fish a lot of tournaments and I am certain mine is accurate.

My new scale should be here next week and I won't be testing anymore until it arrives. Blood knot seems to be one of the most used connections and it is rather streamline. I'm curious how it will perform. Will look into the improved blood knot also.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

Pudldux said:


> I think the allbright knot is low 90%. Killer knot for different diameter lines and very easy to tie. Also regardless of the knot you tie put chapstick on your lips then to the line.


I used to use the albright knot a lot then I went with the alberto because it was a little bit stronger. I switched to the FG knot and it was significantly stronger than both but this was braid to mono/fluoro and not mono to mono/fluoro. Sportfishing magazine has done a lot of testing on braid to mono and mono loop knots but I haven't found any tests from them on mono to mono knots.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Are you testing knots or line. When you do the test is the line breaking or the knot and if it's the knot how are you isolating it


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

that's pretty much my inshore leader setup for 8 and 9 weights. I tie blood knots with one more turn on the larger side through to the last connection where I'm tying the improved blood with 5 turns of the doubled light line and two of the larger bite tippet. looking forward to your blood knot results.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I used my Boga to test Ande,Seaguar and Rio hard. First the Boga is not precise you have to look at those tiny bars and make sure when it breaks you know where it was cause soon as it breaks it goes to zero


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

permitchaser said:


> I used my Boga to test Ande,Seaguar and Rio hard. First the Boga is not precise you have to look at those tiny bars and make sure when it breaks you know where it was cause soon as it breaks it goes to zero


I agree the boga would be much harder to read when the line breaks. I use digital scales for all my line and knot tests but I do use my boga when I need to set my drag on the boat.


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## NVswitch (Jan 25, 2021)

I always have poor knot strength when attaching flurocarbon material to mono material. I now make up mono leaders and attach the fluro tippet using tippet rings. I have not tested this attachment but I find it very strong. 
Check it out and see how it compares
Mike


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I make a Bimini then surgeon knot in the middle of the loop then loop to loop tippet to leader


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## Matts (Sep 2, 2015)

I do believe a blood knot is close to 100% and surgeons significantly weaker. Meredith McCord recently posted something on her IG using a real knot testing device. I don't think you will get good data with a boga.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

Matts said:


> I do believe a blood knot is close to 100% and surgeons significantly weaker. Meredith McCord recently posted something on her IG using a real knot testing device. I don't think you will get good data with a boga.


I have never used a boga to test knots, I use a digital scale. I would be very surprised if the blood knot is that good but I will definitely be testing it out soon. Do you have a link to her test? I just looked on Instagram and nothing stood out in her pics.

EDIT: I was just watching a video by Rio of how to tie the blood knot. At the end of the video they tested 10lb Rio steelhead/salmon tippet on an Instron and it broke at 7.19lbs which is 68% of the tensile strength of the line.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

permitchaser said:


> Are you testing knots or line. When you do the test is the line breaking or the knot and if it's the knot how are you isolating it


I'm testing my knots and it always breaks at the knot as that is the weakest link in the line. I wrote out how I'm testing in the first post but it is easier to see what I'm doing with a picture so I added one to my original post.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

WOW. I just found a goldmine of information. Rio has videos of how to tie many common fly fishing knots and at the end of most of the videos they test the knots on an Instron machine. They use 10lb Rio steelhead/salmon tippet in each test so obviously connecting smaller to larger lines could have some variation but it is still a good reference point to look at to see if I am in the balkpark with my knots.

*RIO LINE TESTS FROM YOUTUBE: *(10lb Rio steelhead/salmon tippet)

*Line to Line knots:

Uni to Uni:* 6.99lbs *66%
Blood knot:* 7.19lbs* 68%
Improved Blood knot:* 8.31lbs *78%
Slim Beauty: *8.52lbs* 90%

Loop Knots/Hitches:

Homer Rhodes Knot:* 8.09lbs *76%
Double Surgeon Loop Knot:* 8.29lbs* 78%
Non Slip Loop Knot: *8.43lbs* 80%
Perfection Loop:* 10.02lbs *95%

Spider hitch:* 9.04lbs *85%
Bimini Twist:* 10.72lbs *100%

Terminal Knots:

Improved Clinch:* 7.04lbs* 66%
Trilene Knot: *10.48lbs* 99%*

It looks like their Uni-to Uni results were practically identical to mine (66% to my 67%). The Slim Beauty was already on my list of knots to test and it appears to be a good performer. The reason I don't want to do a Bimini is because I can not use it to connect my bite tippet. It would be fine at the my leader/tippet connection. If the slim beauty tests as good for me as it did for them it will probably be my go-to connection....


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

permitchaser said:


> I make a Bimini then surgeon knot in the middle of the loop then loop to loop tippet to leader


I wouldn't be against a loop to loop bimini connection at the leader end but my issue is finding something to connect to my bite tippet. Bimini will not work very well due to the rules on the bite tippet only being 12" long from the hook to the single line portion of the class tippet. If I tie a bimini I reduce the length of the bite tippet by at least 1/3.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Blood, Palomar and J knots will all test greater than your 69%.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

DuckNut said:


> Blood, Palomar and J knots will all test greater than your 69%.


Rio tested the blood knot on an instrom machine and it tested 68% but the improved blood knot was stronger. I will still test them out for myself. Palomar is one of my go to knots but it's a terminal knot. I'm only concerned with line to line knots currently.

Never heard of the J knot before. Looks interesting and fairly simple. I will have to try that one out....


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## Moore Lyon and Quick (Aug 26, 2015)

I've been experimenting with the Crazy Alberto knot for my leader to tippet knot - I like the profile of it. I had been using perfection loop to perfection loop for quick changes but I've had a few break-offs from larger fish at the loop from a head shake. The Crazy Alberto is a modifed Allbright - should test out a little better than the Albrifght


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## flyclimber (May 22, 2016)

I tie the slim beauty for all my leaders. If the change between diameters is large you double over the smaller line and tie in. I usually use 4 up and 3 down for the twist count. If your not isn’t wet it will break as this knot has lots of friction when seating. I’ll usually go very slow and let line cool during seating


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

Mdees88 said:


> I wouldn't be against a loop to loop bimini connection at the leader end but my issue is finding something to connect to my bite tippet. Bimini will not work very well due to the rules on the bite tippet only being 12" long from the hook to the single line portion of the class tippet. If I tie a bimini I reduce the length of the bite tippet by at least 1/3.


I don't want to muddy these waters any more than necessary, but your comments about not allowing bimini to bite tippet sound wrong to me. I have seen many serious, class tippets tied using a bimini in either end of the class tippet. The Huffnagle knot that I learned to tie is a class bimini to bite connection. You may be in a game that I know nothing about... however you should test that "no bimini" rule IMO. BTW, it is not that hard to learn. Rolling the line back down takes some practice but it is not "rocket surgery" as they say. Good luck and keep us posted. Mark


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Mdees88 said:


> I wouldn't be against a loop to loop bimini connection at the leader end but my issue is finding something to connect to my bite tippet. Bimini will not work very well due to the rules on the bite tippet only being 12" long from the hook to the single line portion of the class tippet. If I tie a bimini I reduce the length of the bite tippet by at least 1/3.


You can use the bimini for your class,then attach your bite can be any length you want. Most people including Lefty, like a bimini on both ends of the class that way you have a double line to attach to your bite


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## hipshot (Sep 29, 2018)

If you’re testing knot strengths you don’t need a certified scale; you just need a consistent scale. If your scale says knot A on average breaks at 7.91 lbs., and knot B breaks on average at 8.36 lbs., you know which knot is stronger. It’s irrelevant that another scale shows (for instance) 1.3% higher - or lower - values. If you are seeking to quantify breaking strengths you need a whole lot of certified equipment. But I believe that your purpose is served by simply knowing that knot B is stronger than knot A.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Moore Lyon and Quick said:


> I've been experimenting with the Crazy Alberto knot for my leader to tippet knot - I like the profile of it. I had been using perfection loop to perfection loop for quick changes but I've had a few break-offs from larger fish at the loop from a head shake. The Crazy Alberto is a modifed Allbright - should test out a little better than the Albrifght


I don't know what a crazy Alberto is but I know the Alberto knot. It's a nice knot and straight but you better lock it in with a 3 turn uni knot or it will come apart
I like the Slim Beauty because the running line pulls it tight against the figure 8 knot


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I tested some tippit on my Boga. Ande 20#, Segaur 20# Floro and Rio Hard 20#. They all tested at 20 except the Segaur Floro came in about 18#


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Mdees88 said:


> I wouldn't be against a loop to loop bimini connection at the leader end but my issue is finding something to connect to my bite tippet. Bimini will not work very well due to the rules on the bite tippet only being 12" long from the hook to the single line portion of the class tippet. If I tie a bimini I reduce the length of the bite tippet by at least 1/3.


Not sure what your issue is with this? If you are fishing for snapper you don't need a long bite tippet anyway. Any thing over a couple of inches if going to protect the tippet from their mouth. And even a full 12" isn't really long enough to protect the tippet from getting cut by a dorsal or tail anyway. I get chasing records is a serious business but don't overthink the process. Go fishing and get it done! Good luck.


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## georgiadrifter (Jan 14, 2009)

Bingo! I never mix materials for this reason. My mono/fluoro connections have never faired well. I’d be interested in your findings if you used strictly mono or strictly fluoro.I think this is especially critical when using the uni to uni connection. It stands to reason since fluoro is a harder material than monofilament and can damage the mono when cinching the knot.

Thanks for sharing your research!



NVswitch said:


> I always have poor knot strength when attaching flurocarbon material to mono material. I now make up mono leaders and attach the fluro tippet using tippet rings. I have not tested this attachment but I find it very strong.
> Check it out and see how it compares
> Mike


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## Nway93 (May 9, 2016)

An improved blood knot is probably going to be fine. If you were using heavier bite than 30 I’d do a Bimini in both ends of the class and a cobranagle to the bite. It’s kind of a pain to tie at first but it pulls straighter than a huffnangle and with a 13 turn Bimini it’s a pretty small knot. I’d trust it over a slim beauty.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

If you are interested in knots and don't have this, you might buy it.









Practical Fishing Knots: Kreh, Lefty, Sosin, Mark: 9781493022625: Amazon.com: Books


Practical Fishing Knots [Kreh, Lefty, Sosin, Mark] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Practical Fishing Knots



www.amazon.com





Missing some of the latest stuff but covers the basics fully.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

permitchaser said:


> You can use the bimini for your class,then attach your bite can be any length you want. Most people including Lefty, like a bimini on both ends of the class that way you have a double line to attach to your bite


My bite tippet can only be 12" including the Bimini.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

mwolaver said:


> I don't want to muddy these waters any more than necessary, but your comments about not allowing bimini to bite tippet sound wrong to me. I have seen many serious, class tippets tied using a bimini in either end of the class tippet. The Huffnagle knot that I learned to tie is a class bimini to bite connection. You may be in a game that I know nothing about... however you should test that "no bimini" rule IMO. BTW, it is not that hard to learn. Rolling the line back down takes some practice but it is not "rocket surgery" as they say. Good luck and keep us posted. Mark


My thought was If I'm allowed 12" of leader I would like to use all 12" in case I gut hook one and for chafe protection. Truth be told I probably only need 4-6" for gut hooking. But if I'm allowed 12" of chafe protection why not use all 12.

Plus I was thinking about how line shy these guys are and how bulky a bimini twist is (though it's probably not that bad in 12lb test). That's been my thoughts on why I didn't want to use it. If I could find a smaller knot that is reasonably strong (like the slim beauty appears to be) I would be happy with it.

I've watched dozens of Mangs eat every chunk you throw at them then when you freeline a chunk with a hook hid in it they turn up their nose at it. I've had to scale down to 20lb before to get consistant bites but 30 is usually ideal, have caught many on 40 too. My leaders 6-10ft long so their only seeing the fluorocarbon and not any line to line knots.

Just looked at the Huffnagle and that doesn't look too bad. I like how it butts up against the bimini. I would only lose around 2" of bite tippet with that configuration. I'm going to tie the Bimini and test it out. Might even end up using it who knows......


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

12" of bite is what is legal for an IGFA world record. I read in Lefty's book that leader doesn't scare fish it's the fly crashing on the water. He says if you cast away and bring it back then leader won't mater.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

I’d probably do this:








Striped Bass Leader


Clear leaders with a heavy butt to turn over large, bushy flies.




www.rioproducts.com




(If it tests out at the correct breaking weight)

And then an Albright to the bite with a loop to the fly.

its the fewest knots and less mess to hang up and show to the fish.


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

Mdees88 said:


> My thought was If I'm allowed 12" of leader I would like to use all 12" in case I gut hook one and for chafe protection. Truth be told I probably only need 4-6" for gut hooking. But if I'm allowed 12" of chafe protection why not use all 12.
> 
> Plus I was thinking about how line shy these guys are and how bulky a bimini twist is (though it's probably not that bad in 12lb test). That's been my thoughts on why I didn't want to use it. If I could find a smaller knot that is reasonably strong (like the slim beauty appears to be) I would be happy with it.
> 
> ...


Gut hooking a snapper on a fly is not usually a concern...for me anyway. They don't have cutting teeth or chafing teeth anyway...only holding teeth. You might consider going long on your class, all the way to the fly. I've caught many snappers on straight 12. Or go to 15# bite. That would be a small knot for sure. Either way, if you're worried about getting rocked or cut off on the roots, your still using 12# somewhere. 

This has been worn out in other threads, but you will find it mighty hard to get anywhere near breaking 12# with a medium weight fly rod. Cool thread, by the way. Mark


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

mwolaver said:


> Gut hooking a snapper on a fly is not usually a concern...for me anyway. They don't have cutting teeth or chafing teeth anyway...only holding teeth. You might consider going long on your class, all the way to the fly. I've caught many snappers on straight 12. Or go to 15# bite. That would be a small knot for sure. Either way, if you're worried about getting rocked or cut off on the roots, your still using 12# somewhere.
> 
> This has been worn out in other threads, but you will find it mighty hard to get anywhere near breaking 12# with a medium weight fly rod. Cool thread, by the way. Mark



Well what I'm doing is definitely not normal in the fly fishing world. I'm fishing offshore in 100ft of water. Every single trip I go on (when I fish for mangs) I catch several on conventional tackle that would be "world records" on a fly rod. The average size I catch is 6-8lbs. I usually catch one or two 9-10lbs every trip. Have caught several 11lbs and the biggest we've caught is 14lbs. I chum them up off the wrecks and watch them eat 10ft behind the boat.

They didn't get this big by accident and they're very line shy. I catch them on public wrecks that are loaded with red snapper and that get fished a ton. They rarely get caught because they won't hit your standard 50-80lb snapper leader. I've literally watched them shy away from baits on 40lb and sometimes 30lb line.

They have to swim around 60ft down to break me off so I would like at least 6lbs of drag to keep that from happening though I would prefer around 10lbs and might end up using 16lb tippet. The other issue is sharks. When they get bad I usually just quit because we lose around half the fish to them on the very light leaders.

Plan on using a 10wt rod and I'll set the drag with the line through the rod and I'll be able to see how the rod reacts at high drags.

Over half the fish in these pictures would break both the 12 and 16lb line class records..... and 4 or 5 of them would be a 20lb record which is currently vacant.

My biggest challenge is going to be finding a fly they'll eat, a leader that won't scare them, and having enough drag to keep me from getting wrecked or sharked.


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## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

When fishing IGFA I I am using bimini in the class and cobranagles to the bite and heavier above. Just pre-tie enough of those sections then all you need to do is pull out another section and blood knot to the rest of the leader and tie a new fly to your bite. Quick and easy.


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

Mdees88 said:


> My thought was If I'm allowed 12" of leader I would like to use all 12" in case I gut hook one and for chafe protection. Truth be told I probably only need 4-6" for gut hooking. But if I'm allowed 12" of chafe protection why not use all 12.
> 
> Plus I was thinking about how line shy these guys are and how bulky a bimini twist is (though it's probably not that bad in 12lb test). That's been my thoughts on why I didn't want to use it. If I could find a smaller knot that is reasonably strong (like the slim beauty appears to be) I would be happy with it.
> 
> ...


I would venture to say that a vast majority of the world record tarpon recently has been tied with a bimini to huffnagle (or similar) in the tippet. That connection can only be 12 inches beginning of the knot to beginning of the knot. Remember it is going to stretch also. So your bite should only be 11.5 to be sure that it will not stretch over. 

If this was me what I would do is tie up a bunch of leaders with bite ahead of time and spool them back to back on an old leader spool. That way you are ready to go and all you have to do is measure the beginning of the bimini to the fly on the water and make sure it is 11.5". Or go old school and buy a leader stretcher and tie all your rigs up ahead of time.

One note on a bimini in mono. Your first few back wraps should be loose then the rest can stack together tightly. 

Ande Tournament is IGFA legal off the rack....


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

TheAdamsProject said:


> When fishing IGFA I I am using bimini in the class and cobranagles to the bite and heavier above. Just pre-tie enough of those sections then all you need to do is pull out another section and blood knot to the rest of the leader and tie a new fly to your bite. Quick and easy.


When I was picturing a bimini I was thinking some kind of loop to loop connection. Then when I look at the huffnagle I see it butts up against the bimini as does the cobranagle. I would be more inclined to use a bimini and one of those knots since I'll only lose an inch or so of bite tippet. I was thinking loop to loop and losing 3-4" of bite tippet.

Just watched a video of the cobranagle and at the end he had several knots shown together for a size comparison. A >98% percent connection would be great but that size of slim beauty sure makes it tempting..... looks like I'll be picking between the cobranagle and slim beauty but still have to do my own tests first....


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

Thanks for all the advice from everyone. Picking up some good pointers in this thread.


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

Mdees88 said:


> Thanks for all the advice from everyone. Picking up some good pointers in this thread.


Good luck by the way. I think you have the fish dialed in so we look forward to the results.


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

I'm sure you have or will consider this, but if you are chumming/chunking then you may end up like the blackfin guys behind a shrimp boat: a mop fly that resembles what you're feeding them. A variation of that would be using frozen majua or glass minnows for your chum and a similar looking EP fly. You're yellowtail fishing basically. Or getting them close, then throwing some livies in and casting/stripping a fly. Mark


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

mwolaver said:


> I'm sure you have or will consider this, but if you are chumming/chunking then you may end up like the blackfin guys behind a shrimp boat: a mop fly that resembles what you're feeding them. A variation of that would be using frozen majua or glass minnows for your chum and a similar looking EP fly. You're yellowtail fishing basically. Or getting them close, then throwing some livies in and casting/stripping a fly. Mark


Haha, yeah I've actually thought about tying a fly that looks like a Bonita chunk. The majority of the ones in those pics were caught on freelined live croakers about 5" long. The rest were caught on Bonita chunks. They do like live shrimp though. I actually just bought a cast net for glass minnows. I plan on netting a bunch and freezing then for chum. I have tied some surf candies that resemble the glass minnows very close. Never tried using anything that small on the mangs before though. My plan is to tie the best looking croaker fly I can and tie a few different shrimp flies. I think it will be quite an accomplishment in itself getting one if those big guys to eat a fly period, they can be very finicky at times.... even with live bait. Can't tell you how many times a mang will swim right up to a chunk or croaker and stop and just stare at it.... then 3 seconds later a red snapper comes in and chomps it down, lol.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Mdees88 said:


> Haha, yeah I've actually thought about tying a fly that looks like a Bonita chunk. The majority of the ones in those pics were caught on freelined live croakers about 5" long. The rest were caught on Bonita chunks. They do like live shrimp though. I actually just bought a cast net for glass minnows. I plan on meeting a bunch and freezing then for chum. I have tied some surf candies that resemble the glass minnows very close. Never tried using anything that small on the mangs before though. My plan is to tie the best looking croaker fly I can and tie a few different shrimp flies. I think it will be quite an accomplishment in itself getting one if those big guys to eat a fly period, they can be very finicky at times.... even with live bait. Can't tell you how many times a mang will swim right up to a chunk or croaker and stop and just stare at it.... then 3 seconds later a red snapper comes in and chomps it down, lol.


I must be stupid but can you explain what a Mang fish is. And did you catch all those fish on fly


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

Mdees88 said:


> Haha, yeah I've actually thought about tying a fly that looks like a Bonita chunk. The majority of the ones in those pics were caught on freelined live croakers about 5" long. The rest were caught on Bonita chunks. They do like live shrimp though. I actually just bought a cast net for glass minnows. I plan on meeting a bunch and freezing then for chum. I have tied some surf candies that resemble the glass minnows very close. Never tried using anything that small on the mangs before though. My plan is to tie the best looking croaker fly I can and tie a few different shrimp flies. I think it will be quite an accomplishment in itself getting one if those big guys to eat a fly period, they can be very finicky at times.... even with live bait. Can't tell you how many times a mang will swim right up to a chunk or croaker and stop and just stare at it.... then 3 seconds later a red snapper comes in and chomps it down, lol.


Sounds like you have it thought through. BTW, I take back my comment about straight 12. I've never seen a gray snapper that big..... BUT, you might have to go straight 12 just to get a bite.... Good luck with your fish. Mark


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

Mdees88 said:


> Haha, yeah I've actually thought about tying a fly that looks like a Bonita chunk. The majority of the ones in those pics were caught on freelined live croakers about 5" long. The rest were caught on Bonita chunks. They do like live shrimp though. I actually just bought a cast net for glass minnows. I plan on meeting a bunch and freezing then for chum. I have tied some surf candies that resemble the glass minnows very close. Never tried using anything that small on the mangs before though. My plan is to tie the best looking croaker fly I can and tie a few different shrimp flies. I think it will be quite an accomplishment in itself getting one if those big guys to eat a fly period, they can be very finicky at times.... even with live bait. Can't tell you how many times a mang will swim right up to a chunk or croaker and stop and just stare at it.... then 3 seconds later a red snapper comes in and chomps it down, lol.


You may look at a gummy minnow also once you start using the glass minnows for chum.

I am starting to think you may need to bring me along to be the net man and catch all those pesky red snapper for you. Lol


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

permitchaser said:


> I must be stupid but can you explain what a Mang fish is. And did you catch all those fish on fly


Mangrove snapper or gray snapper. They're the bronze colored fish in the pics. All those fish were caught on conventional and 75% of them would be world record fish on the fly. That's what I'm going after for the line class record....


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## RobK3 (Dec 11, 2019)

Huffnagle or Cobranagle. Check out this link:


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Cobranagle looks like a good knot just doesn't look like it would be easy to tie on a rocking boat


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

permitchaser said:


> Cobranagle looks like a good knot just doesn't look like it would be easy to tie on a rocking boat


Record seekers don't tie on the boat.... except maybe to the fly. All tackle is prepared in advance!


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## RobK3 (Dec 11, 2019)

mwolaver said:


> Record seekers don't tie on the boat.... except maybe to the fly. All tackle is prepared in advance!


That's correct. An the proper prep and storage of the leaders is an art in and of itself.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

RobK3 said:


> That's correct. An the proper prep and storage of the leaders is an art in and of itself.


Since you mentioned storage of leaders. I just take the leader and wrap it around my fingers the put the end in with 3 wraps. This works ok if I can find the end and unwind it right but when I'm in a hurry and can't find the end its a mess. I store my leaders in a plastic bag with the information written on the bag. If y'all have a better way I'm all ears


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## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

@permitchaser I do the same. I tie my cobranagles with my bite and then bag and label.


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## BM_Barrelcooker (May 4, 2011)

Uni-Uni.


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

TheAdamsProject said:


> @permitchaser I do the same. I tie my cobranagles with my bite and then bag and label.


@TheAdamsProject @permitchaser I take the loop of the furled section of the class and loop to loop two leaders together and then wind them on an old leader spool the bite tippet is one long section shared by two leaders that I will cut to length when needed. 

This never fouls and I label it 16/60 etc. I did that same thing you guys did and always did three wraps but the SOBS still knotted up.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

Well *just tested out the blood knot* and I'm pretty impressed. Results will likely vary with different sized tippet and leaders but for 12lb rio flouro to 20lb Ande mono it tested out pretty darn good. *I added the results to the original post.... *I called it a 4-5 turn blood knot because it was kind of hard to get a good count on the last turn when I'm going back through the loop in the middle. I may have added an extra turn once or twice.

I might be changing up this test pretty soon. I plan on using a 10wt floating line with a 15ft sinking tip and as I understand it the mono floats and fluoro sinks. Not sure how much 5-6ft of 40/30/20 mono floats but I think it might be better off if my entire leader is fluoro so it all sinks at the same rate.

I tried my new fly reel out offshore Saturday. I never got on a school of spanish and bonita busting glass minnows on the surface like I wanted to but we did get on some spanish schools that were around 15-25ft below the surface. I had an 8wt floating line and the glass minnows I tied up were not heavy at all and wouldn't get down. I tied on a lead eyed zonker clouser and it got bit once it got down but broke off instantly with no wire or extra long hook shank like I had on the glass minnows. I'm definitely going to need to get down at least 15-20ft for the mangrove snapper......


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## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

I used to do a lot of knot against knot testing the same way you’re doing and anytime I decide to try a new knot in my system I do the same. I have zero interest in chasing records but I still want to be able to build leaders that will hold. I’ve had excellent results with the super improved blood knot, generally getting a bit better than 90% with them.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

*Just tested the slim beauty *and it didn't perform as good as advertised for me connecting 12lb fluoro to 20lb mono. *I added the results in my original post*. That along with the fact he blood knot performed better than advertised just goes to show you that you can't always take other peoples numbers and expect to get the same results.

Connecting mono to mono, fluoro to fluoro, mono to fluoro, small lines to small lines, small lines to large lines, etc., will yield quite different results. Then you can throw in the human factor where not everyone cinches at the same pressure or at the same point during the tying process.

Even my numbers are just a generalization and you should really perform these tests for yourselves if you care about your knot strength. If you will never be pushing the limits of applying high drag to small lines then it's not as big of a deal if you have a system that has been working well for you.....


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

Mdees88 said:


> *Just tested the slim beauty *and it didn't perform quite as good as advertised for me connecting 12lb fluoro to 20lb mono. *I added the results in my original post*. That along with the fact he blood knot performed better than advertised just goes to show you that you can't always take other peoples numbers and expect to get the exact same results.
> 
> Connecting mono to mono, fluoro to fluoro, mono to fluoro, small lines to small lines, small lines to large lines, etc., will yield quite different results. Then you can throw in the human factor where not everyone cinches at the same pressure or at the same point during the tying process.
> 
> Even my numbers are just a generalization and you should really perform these tests for yourselves if you care about your knot strength. If you will never be pushing the limits of applying high drag to small lines then it's not as big of a deal if you have a system that has been working well for you.....


My results with the slim beauty were the same. I was never able to consistently tie it at least compared to the improved blood knot or huffnagle for me.


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## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

Mdees88 said:


> . Then you can throw in the human factor where not everyone cinches at the same pressure or at the same point during the tying process.


This is key. I've seen people speak of knots with high break strength but when I tested them they didn't perform as well. If I'm testing a new know I'll practice it a bunch first until I feel like I'm tying it proficiently, otherwise it likely won't stand a chance against knots I know so well that I can tie them blindfolded in mittens.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

Mdees88 said:


> schools that were around 15-25ft below the surface


I regularly fish in the 12 to 15 ft depth, sometimes a little deeper or shallower for stripers in the delta. For that I have an older version of this called a streamer express the I use on a 9 wt rod and the line is 350 grains. Normal cast 60 to 75 feet, wait a bit letting it sink.

What's cool is that the running line is Intermediate and will sink too which allows keeping the fly in the zone for most of the retrieve. 

I recently bought a 240 grain one for a 7 wt which I plan to use to get my streamers down in a few areas I currently use 30 ft. shooting heads with 100 ft of 20 pound mono shooting line on a 6 wt.. Lawn casts "OK" and plan to fish it this fall.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

Compact Sink Type 9


The Specialty Series Compact Sink Type 9 is the world’s most versatile sinking lines, rated for all temperature conditions. Featuring a 28ft Type 9 (8-9IPS) sinking head paired with an intermediate, low friction running line that will keep your fly down in the zone. The 12ft step aids with...




www.cortlandline.com





Here's a link to the line I mentioned above
Orvis and other companies have them too


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

mro said:


> Compact Sink Type 9
> 
> 
> The Specialty Series Compact Sink Type 9 is the world’s most versatile sinking lines, rated for all temperature conditions. Featuring a 28ft Type 9 (8-9IPS) sinking head paired with an intermediate, low friction running line that will keep your fly down in the zone. The 12ft step aids with...
> ...


I'll look into that. Would definitely work better than what I was using. Thanks.


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## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

Just since I don’t play much in the igfa world is using something like super glue on a knot not allowed? 

With a well tied blood or Albright you can attach the sizes you are talking about together no problem and with some glue the line will fail before the knot just about 100 percent of the time.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

texasag07 said:


> Just since I don’t play much in the igfa world is using something like super glue on a knot not allowed?
> 
> With a well tied blood or Albright you can attach the sizes you are talking about together no problem and with some glue the line will fail before the knot just about 100 percent of the time.


That's a good question and I would like to know the answer myself....


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## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

TheAdamsProject said:


> @permitchaser I do the same. I tie my cobranagles with my bite and then bag and label.


If you can find an old cd or dvd case with the little pockets, pages out of those are great for keeping leaders. My Patagonia great divider bag has a very slim zipper pocket inside the top cover and those cd sleeves fit nicely in ther and snug enough to keep the leaders tidy


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

My cursory review of the igfa leader rules didn't turn up any mention of glue. I'd probably have to contact igfa directly if I was going to try a leader with glued knots. Let us know what you find out


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

So @Mdees88 said he doesn't like the Slim Beauty, I do. I like the fact the running line pulls against the figure 8 knot..So I did my unscientific test. I tied a bimini on each end of 20lb. Ande. One end I tied to an 80lb. Floro bite with a Slim Beauty knot on the other end of bite I tied a Owner 5180, 3/0 hook with a non slip 3 turn loop knot. This is my go to Tarpon set up. I attached the hook to my weight bench and the other end with the bimini to my Boga. The Ande broke at about 21 lbs the tippet broke not the SB. As a matter of fact the SB and the loop knot looked great. So what this tells me I can put 20 lbs. Of pressure on a fish. Of course it would be hard to put that much pressure on a fish and I'm confident my SB will hold. Now the Huffnagle and Albright or Alberto are all good knots but you better lock them in with a uni knot cause I've seen them come apart IMHO


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

permitchaser said:


> So @Mdees88 said he doesn't like the Slim Beauty, I do. I like the fact the running line pulls against the figure 8 knot..So I did my unscientific test. I tied a bimini on each end of 20lb. Ande. One end I tied to an 80lb. Floro bite with a Slim Beauty knot on the other end of bite I tied a Owner 5180, 3/0 hook with a non slip 3 turn loop knot. This is my go to Tarpon set up. I attached the hook to my weight bench and the other end with the bimini to my Boga. The Ande broke at about 21 lbs the tippet broke not the SB. As a matter of fact the SB and the loop knot looked great. So what this tells me I can put 20 lbs. Of pressure on a fish. Of course it would be hard to put that much pressure on a fish and I'm confident my SB will hold. Now the Huffnagle and Albright or Alberto are all good knots but you better lock them in with a uni knot cause I've seen them come apart IMHO


Cool test. Each scenario is different and the fact that you are testing your exact setup is great and important if you want to know how capable it is.

One thing I notice is you are tying a Slim beauty with a bimini twist (I think). I am not doing that. I'm tying it with a doubled over section of tippet, not a loop of tippet. If that is the case I imagine that is why you are getting much better results than me. Of course the different sized lines and composition of the lines (mono/fluoro) will affect the results too. The slim beauty knot was developed by Capt. Tom Rowland of Saltwater Experience. He wanted to create a strong tarpon leader connection that didn't require tying a bimini twist.

I actually never said "I didn't like the slim beauty." At 72% it is the strongest line to line knot I've tested next to the surprisingly good 88% blood knot. I do like the size of it and how it snugs up against the figure 8. I just wish it was a little stronger when connecting my 12lb fluoro to 20lb Ande mono. With your 20lb Ande, if it is breaking somewhere in the tippet and not at the knot then it is a 100% connection. Nothing wrong with that...

I think I'm going to go to an all fluoro leader so looks like I will be redoing a lot of these tests and I think it will be interesting to see how the results differ from mono/fluoro to fluoro/fluoro.

Oh I tested a few perfection loops with the 12lb fluoro..... let's just say they weren't perfect or even close to perfect for that matter. I'll post some results later.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Mdees88 said:


> Cool test. Each scenario is different and the fact that you are testing your exact setup is great and important if you want to know how capable it is.
> 
> One thing I notice is you are tying a Slim beauty with a bimini twist (I think). I am not doing that. I'm tying it with a doubled over section of tippet, not a loop of tippet. If that is the case I imagine that is why you are getting much better results than me. Of course the different sized lines and composition of the lines (mono/fluoro) will affect the results too. The slim beauty knot was developed by Capt. Tom Rowland of Saltwater Experience. He wanted to create a strong tarpon leader connection that didn't require tying a bimini twist.
> 
> ...


Thanks man I think Floro slips and you need extra loops. I’m with you on perfection loops I’ll stick with surgeon loops when it really matters 
I don’t think it makes any difference on the SB if you use double line or a double line from a Bimini


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