# Builder won't return deposit



## scissorhands (Apr 8, 2012)

tough situation, but non-refundable deposit after 5 days was the deal. What kinda boat did you end up with


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

It sucks , but the builder is running a business. Hopefully you can workout a agreement, half refund or something.


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## Shinerkiller (Dec 12, 2006)

Maybe they can save your deposit for a future build or maybe sell your spot to someone else


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Tough lesson to learn, but that's 100% on you. It sounds like they outlined the parameters of the agreement pretty clear. You chose to give them money under those conditions, you also chose to buy a different boat while under agreement with them.

You have no right to bad mouth them at this point. You are upset because you aren't getting your money back, but that's the deal you made. You're going to have to live with it. Threatening them with lack of future business, or bad mouthing them to prospective customers, on a web board would reflect a lack of integrity on your part. Do you think your friends or the forum members are going to think less of that builder based on the scenario you described? I don't think so.... Just being honest.


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## sickz284u (Mar 8, 2012)

Most reputable builders will gladly apply the deposit to a future build should you decide to go that route at a later date. As the others mentioned though, it's in the print clearly so it's valid. The problem is if they return the deposit then essentially they have to do the same thing for everyone.


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

I think I know the builder you're referencing and as others have said it's what you agreed to. I work for a home builder and before we start a home we require people to put down money. If someone backs out, we keep the money. thats an expensive lesson but 100% on you. You're more than welcome to ask them to apply that money to my build! Try selling your spot to someone if the builder will do that.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Before you take one step... go see a lawyer and have that contract reviewed carefully - you may not be in as bad a shape as you think.... That said, the next item of business is not to say another word publicly until you learn exactly where you stand..... After that make sure any public statements you make on the matter are strictly factual and no attempts to "bad mouth" since that sort of stuff can end up with you on the receiving end of a lawsuit (and, unfortunately you'll lose if you've slandered them....). As part of the process with your lawyer have him take a look at current and past suits against this particular outfit and learn exactly who you were dealing with.... 

No, I'm not a lawyer but spent enough time in courtrooms to learn a thing or two about both sides of disputes. What any lawyer will always advise (if asked...) is that you should bring any contract to them BEFORE you sign it - so that they can review it and point out things you might have missed. This is something that most of us never do (me included) and it can lead to some hard lessons...

Hope it works out for you. I was able, years ago, to retrieve a deposit on a boat I'd ordered from a one man operation - but mine was because one year later he still hadn't started my skiff (boy, was I lucky...). Good luck and hope your next transaction is better...


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## swaddict (Dec 19, 2009)

Sorry, but that is on you.


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

lemaymiami said:


> Before you take one step... go see a lawyer and have that contract reviewed carefully - you may not be in as bad a shape as you think.... That said, the next item of business is not to say another word publicly until you learn exactly where you stand..... After that make sure any public statements you make on the matter are strictly factual and no attempts to "bad mouth" since that sort of stuff can end up with you on the receiving end of a lawsuit (and, unfortunately you'll lose if you've slandered them....). As part of the process with your lawyer have him take a look at current and past suits against this particular outfit and learn exactly who you were dealing with....
> 
> No, I'm not a lawyer but spent enough time in courtrooms to learn a thing or two about both sides of disputes. What any lawyer will always advise (if asked...) is that you should bring any contract to them BEFORE you sign it - so that they can review it and point out things you might have missed. This is something that most of us never do (me included) and it can lead to some hard lessons...
> 
> Hope it works out for you. I was able, years ago, to retrieve a deposit on a boat I'd ordered from a one man operation - but mine was because one year later he still hadn't started my skiff (boy, was I lucky...). Good luck and hope your next transaction is better...


Attorney's? That's where we're going with this? As lawsuit happy as this country has gotten I have to respectfully disagree, people need to man up and admit when they're in the wrong. 

If this contract is the same contract I'm thinking of, there isn't some long winded legal jargon it simply states the time frame in which to expect your build to start as well as the expected completion time frame, and finally in big bold letters it says all deposits are non-refundable after 5 days. 

The OP took one on the chin, its gonna burn but he's in the wrong. Get this attorney BS out of here.


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## Snookyrookie (Sep 9, 2016)

Guys, thanks for your thoughts!

Scissors- I ended up with a HB Pro, and figured the deposit cost into what I was buying boat for, I am very happy to have found this boat

el9surf- never said it wasn't on me, it's all my fault and I understand that, I even mentally counted the deposit into the price I paid on the HB figuring I wouldn't get it back. I didn't think I was bad mouthing the company, don't even want to say who it is, I do think its a jerk move as they are out nothing except the effort to write it down but as I stated I still love the boats they build and would recommend them

todd- if you weren't building anything for another 9-11 weeks and had no expense would you refund the deposit? If its the same builder I would love him to slide the deposit to you!

I sell high end luxury items well into 6 figures, and we have people putting down "nonrefundable" deposits all the time that something changes in their life and they want to back out or get their money back. If the build hasn't started and it has cost me no expense I have never kept a deposit or given someone a hard time about getting it back, in the long run I am not out anything and it has resulted in more referrals and business as most people fear nobody will be on their side. The $1000 is not a big deal, but I will remember it when I think of my next boat or if someone asks me about it. I would imagine the $1000 isn't really a big deal to them either, we will both walk away from this surviving financially one way or another. It would be a nice gesture for them to return it, and you think I would think more highly of them if they did and tell more people about my experience with them? I wouldn't even consider asking for it back if there would have been any expense or effort on their behalf, but at the end of the day I signed a contract and will have to live with it, lesson learned!


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Yeah, the builder has to take a deposit to ensure the buyer is legit. Otherwise, he is backing up builds, which do take time to plan and forecast, that could be cancelled at any time. The builder isn't just mitigating your order, but everyone's, by doing this type of deposit system.

Can't blame him it all. And can't blame you either - you knew what it was. But it was agreed to. Can't say they are a dick either - it was agreed to. You kept looking, so that does that tell you? It wasn't what you wanted. Better to lose 1k now than to have to sell it within the first year and lose 5k.


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

Sorry I didn't mean to sound like a dick there. I just read attorney and got heated. 

Personally me? No I wouldn't, for no reason other than it's a business and you have to treat everyone the same. I saw the HB you bought and you definitely got a deal. Beautiful boat.


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Sounds like you are going to live with the results. Anyways unless you have an attorney on your pay roll. I doubt one would bother with the case. Dan Newlin might take it if a boat flew off the trailer and hit you. Nothing to gain otherwise.


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

Frankly, in an industry as small the the skiff world, and the inter connectedness of everything, it seems to me that a builder with a waiting list would think that a return of deposit might be better advertising than having to suffer the possibility of long drawn out discussions of the ethics involved of keeping some guy's $1000 literally months before the start of the build. What actually works in business doesn't necessarily come down to reading the fine print, but more often what is obviously the right thing to do. My .02.
JC


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

No harm No loss..........A 50% refund would be "good business"..... let it go and take the high ground that way you always win...


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

Sell the build date/slot. It might be valuable to someone looking to speed things up.


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## MAV181 (Aug 26, 2010)

Darn Orlando canoe builders at it again.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Lessons cost money, good ones cost lots.


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## Whiskey Angler (Mar 20, 2015)

Seems like the terms (as simple as they are) were clear, both parties understood the terms and made an exchange (money for production slot). A meeting of the minds and exchange of consideration...formation of legally binding contract has occurred.

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one at my second job at Chippendales.

It's ok to ask, but if they don't oblige, than that should be the end of it.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Think of it this way. You will make up for it with the lack of depreciation on your new pro


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

Snookyrookie said:


> they wanted a $1000 deposit in order to "lock up" a build slot as they have a waiting list. I sent the deposit, and on the deposit form it said _*the deposit was*_ _*non-refundable after 5 business days*_. Fast forward 27 days later and I found a skiff that I wanted to purchase and was a good deal, so I bought it.


Looks to me that one party in the business deal was very sure what they intended to do and spelled it out in black and white. Not sure why you expected the non-refundable deposit returned 22 days after the 5-day window expired?

The time to negotiate the contract was BEFORE you signed it. Some of life's lessons get expensive.


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

i'm a boat builder

you've started this "discussion" on another popular message board,where you've gotten the same advice: "walk away"

you entered into a contract,a contract to produce your boat,YOU chose to break that contract.contract clearly stated "no refunds after 5 days"

with all that,i don't understand the point of posting this on multiple web sites


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

@el9surf nailed it on the head. There is a lot of advice on this board. One that gets mentioned time and time again is buy the most you can afford, in great shape, that holds it value.

While we don't know the other maker, you can't go wrong with the resale on a HB unless an ungodly amount of money is spent on rigging it with overpriced electronics and gadgets.

Personally, if I ever get a new build, it will be bare bones. More crap on a boat is more you have to maintain and that can go wrong.


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

Man...we're a lot nicer here than the folks over on The Hull Truth. 

Not too much love for Snooky over there! 

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/789758-builder-wont-return-deposit.html


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

_"The $1000 is *not a big deal*, but I will remember it when I think of my next boat or if someone asks me about it. I would imagine the $1000 isn't really a big deal to them either, w*e will both walk away from this surviving financially one way or another*."_

no further comment.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

lol there are 6 pages of people yelling on THT... that's why I like MS better. thanks for being more civil!


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

yobata said:


> lol there are 6 pages of people yelling on THT... that's why I like MS better. thanks for being more civil!



Guess he didn't like the 6 pages of answers he got on tht. Might as well come over here and beat a dead horse to a bloody pulp.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

I think Snook posting his order/purchase experience on this forum is a good thing and both buyer and seller can learn from the experience. If the seller truly has a long waiting list and the skiff build was not started the buyer should be refunded. In my view neither the buyer or seller were truly committed. However, in the future the builder should ask for at least a twenty five percent deposit to ensure the commitment of the buyer and stay on the skiff building business plan.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Hey we pretty much all know who the builder is but the OP is correct to not name them. Here are my thoughts.
1. Sorry to one of our very good posters but seeking a lawyer is terrible advice. First off its not an issue worth taking up a courts time. Second its probably no legal recourse anyway. And lastly, even if there was some legal recourse its going to cost you way more than a $1000 in legal fees and time. If you win you might recoup some of those fees. if not you are going be out even more money. For the record, the last 10 years of my career I spent almost daily with legal counsel and I am pretty sure his advice would be the same.
2. No the company should not give a refund and here's why. It is outside the window they specified in their contract. Perhaps one can argue that they haven't spent any money yet on your build. How do you really know that. First off just scheduling the buiid takes them time and they don't work for free nor should they. But even more importantly, if they were to issue a refund in this case then just where do they draw the line in other cases? 40 days? 60 days? After they have ordered materials? This becomes a very slippery slope and one that will create all kinds of hard feelings. So in my mind they should stick to what the contract says.....5 days.


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## Snookyrookie (Sep 9, 2016)

Guys, thank you for your opinions- I did post both sites as it is definitely a different atmosphere between the 2 and I am new here and it doesn't seem to get near the responses. I knew I would get hammered over there. I never posted this for thoughts on if I should sue or anything like that, just opinions if people thought it was right, I made an agreement and I will live with it. I also never slammed their boat, said mine was better or anything like that, I just found a deal I couldn't pass and could get right away before I got to an important date. Both my parents were killed by a drunk driver on 11/29/2015, my father was my best fishing buddy, on the anniversary of his death I can now be on the water with his fishing hat he ALWAYS wore when we were on the water. Once again, my decision and my reasons, and more important to me than the $1000.

In my business, even though it says non-refundable on my deposit sheet I will refund up until the point I have incurred expense. I don't consider time as expense as I consider it just work- not everyone agrees with it and I am fine with that. Would I love to keep those clients business, yes, but I realize sometimes things change and some people won't want to wait once they make a decision.

This wasn't supposed to be a witch hunt, and that is why I didn't name the builder or try to hint at who it was, I still think they have a great boat, and would recommend them. It does bother me that they didn't even want to know what color, engine, or equipment I wanted until it was 4 weeks to build, and yet they don't want to refund the deposit because they wrote my name on a piece of paper. It wasn't right for me to sign a contract and then change, I just didn't feel it was right for them to not want to refund because they wrote my name down. If it caused them to put thought into a production timetable, i guess they think it is worth $1000. End of the day it is what it is and both of us will continue without filing bankruptcy. There are more important things in this world, as I discovered last year.


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

Snookyrookie said:


> Guys, thank you for your opinions- I did post both sites as it is definitely a different atmosphere between the 2 and I am new here and it doesn't seem to get near the responses. I knew I would get hammered over there. I never posted this for thoughts on if I should sue or anything like that, just opinions if people thought it was right, I made an agreement and I will live with it. I also never slammed their boat, said mine was better or anything like that, I just found a deal I couldn't pass and could get right away before I got to an important date. Both my parents were killed by a drunk driver on 11/29/2015, my father was my best fishing buddy, on the anniversary of his death I can now be on the water with his fishing hat he ALWAYS wore when we were on the water. Once again, my decision and my reasons, and more important to me than the $1000.
> 
> In my business, even though it says non-refundable on my deposit sheet I will refund up until the point I have incurred expense. I don't consider time as expense as I consider it just work- not everyone agrees with it and I am fine with that. Would I love to keep those clients business, yes, but I realize sometimes things change and some people won't want to wait once they make a decision.
> 
> This wasn't supposed to be a witch hunt, and that is why I didn't name the builder or try to hint at who it was, I still think they have a great boat, and would recommend them. It does bother me that they didn't even want to know what color, engine, or equipment I wanted until it was 4 weeks to build, and yet they don't want to refund the deposit because they wrote my name on a piece of paper. It wasn't right for me to sign a contract and then change, I just didn't feel it was right for them to not want to refund because they wrote my name down. If it caused them to put thought into a production timetable, i guess they think it is worth $1000. End of the day it is what it is and both of us will continue without filing bankruptcy. There are more important things in this world, as I discovered last year.


I'm sorry for your loss.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Man sorry for your loss, that's awful. I lost my dad a year ago and that feeling never seems to dull, can't imagine losing both parents at the same time. All you can do is keep your head up, and enjoy the things like fishing that I'm sure they taught you and carry their spirit on in your life. 

As for the build I can understand why the builder would hold you to the agreement. There is a monetary value to time spent rearranging everyone elses build schedule when one drops out. It may cause delays with other peoples build, or their production schedule. On the flip side if you paid the deposit and they bumped you back in line for someone else because they paid more you would be upset. Or if you paid the deposit and they changed the price on you after the fact. That's why the agreements are in place, it's beneficial to both parties involved. Some lessons cost money, just be glad it wasn't a serious amount.


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## Whiskey Angler (Mar 20, 2015)

Snookyrookie said:


> Guys, thank you for your opinions- I did post both sites as it is definitely a different atmosphere between the 2 and I am new here and it doesn't seem to get near the responses. I knew I would get hammered over there. I never posted this for thoughts on if I should sue or anything like that, just opinions if people thought it was right, I made an agreement and I will live with it. I also never slammed their boat, said mine was better or anything like that, I just found a deal I couldn't pass and could get right away before I got to an important date. Both my parents were killed by a drunk driver on 11/29/2015, my father was my best fishing buddy, on the anniversary of his death I can now be on the water with his fishing hat he ALWAYS wore when we were on the water. Once again, my decision and my reasons, and more important to me than the $1000.
> 
> In my business, even though it says non-refundable on my deposit sheet I will refund up until the point I have incurred expense. I don't consider time as expense as I consider it just work- not everyone agrees with it and I am fine with that. Would I love to keep those clients business, yes, but I realize sometimes things change and some people won't want to wait once they make a decision.
> 
> This wasn't supposed to be a witch hunt, and that is why I didn't name the builder or try to hint at who it was, I still think they have a great boat, and would recommend them. It does bother me that they didn't even want to know what color, engine, or equipment I wanted until it was 4 weeks to build, and yet they don't want to refund the deposit because they wrote my name on a piece of paper. It wasn't right for me to sign a contract and then change, I just didn't feel it was right for them to not want to refund because they wrote my name down. If it caused them to put thought into a production timetable, i guess they think it is worth $1000. End of the day it is what it is and both of us will continue without filing bankruptcy. There are more important things in this world, as I discovered last year.



I hope you stick around and share some picture of that recently acquired HB! Specifically some photos of you wearing your Pop's hat, rod bent, loving life in your recently acquired HB.

Getting over unexpected sunk costs is tough, but as human's we are ussually pretty good at justifying them to make ourselves feel better. Like other's said...in a parallel dimension, the other you didn't get that Hell's Bay and ended up with your new custom skiff, and that other you is probably not as happy.....so see, it all ended up in your favor!!

Glad to have you aboard. Cheers!!!


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

I'm very sorry for your loss; I can't even imagine what you went through. I think the builder is in the right in this one. It sucks, but it is what it is. A few years ago, I put a deposit on a puppy from a future breeding. I ended up going with another breeder- I didn't even ask for the deposit back because I knew it would be useless. We live and learn. On a side note... I'm never posting anything on thehulltruth ever. Those guys are brutal.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

I've been in sales for a long time. Computers, boats, over the road semi-trucks, RV's and now houses. Over the years, I can't tell you how many times I've/ we've allowed someone to back out of a non-refundable deposit. Yes, it was "on them." Yes the deposit is to take it off the market or in this case, reserve a time slot. But to show good business practices with potential referring customers and even non-customers, it just makes good sense if it comes down to a real legit reason to cancel a deal like the OP had..

Typically, a deposit is a sub-conscience thing to convince someone that "they are committed." Also, allowing the vendors/builders a guideline and timeframe of committed business they can track. It's also used as a tool to hold someone's foot to the fire in case they have "buyer's remorse" or are wishy washy and to take them off the market and keep them from looking elsewhere's like the OP did. Any good builder/ dealer knows you don't win every deal and you have some deals that fall apart or require more expenses than projected to complete. So you lose some but hopefully are successful on most deals you put together, and that is the engine that keeps running.

THAT BEING SAID.... If this builder has a waiting list and he's booked out in advanced as long as the OP stated, then the boat builder reserving the spot is not really out much money and I'm sure some of the other buyers will be thrilled that their boats will get started sooner. By refunding a simple deposit like that (before serious money is spent), then it shows "good will" on the builder and will more than likely come back on them with more good recommendations (from this case, the OP) and will add to their future business overall. However, if the builder decides to be a stick in the mud, then the likelihood of that person referring them to someone else or even doing future business with them will be low.

Even today selling $1/4 mil homes, I've had numerous deposits returned only to end up selling them another home instead of losing them as a customer and a referring former customer. So the deposit becomes peanuts compares to the residual business outcome.

It's funny how things and business are graded on ratings, whether you want to be rated or not. I would think a business like that would go above and beyond these days to keep those ratings and referrals high.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Ted Haas


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

Snookyrookie said:


> Guys, thank you for your opinions- I did post both sites as it is definitely a different atmosphere between the 2 and I am new here and it doesn't seem to get near the responses. I knew I would get hammered over there. I never posted this for thoughts on if I should sue or anything like that, just opinions if people thought it was right, I made an agreement and I will live with it. I also never slammed their boat, said mine was better or anything like that, I just found a deal I couldn't pass and could get right away before I got to an important date. Both my parents were killed by a drunk driver on 11/29/2015, my father was my best fishing buddy, on the anniversary of his death I can now be on the water with his fishing hat he ALWAYS wore when we were on the water. Once again, my decision and my reasons, and more important to me than the $1000.
> 
> In my business, even though it says non-refundable on my deposit sheet I will refund up until the point I have incurred expense. I don't consider time as expense as I consider it just work- not everyone agrees with it and I am fine with that. Would I love to keep those clients business, yes, but I realize sometimes things change and some people won't want to wait once they make a decision.
> 
> This wasn't supposed to be a witch hunt, and that is why I didn't name the builder or try to hint at who it was, I still think they have a great boat, and would recommend them. It does bother me that they didn't even want to know what color, engine, or equipment I wanted until it was 4 weeks to build, and yet they don't want to refund the deposit because they wrote my name on a piece of paper. It wasn't right for me to sign a contract and then change, I just didn't feel it was right for them to not want to refund because they wrote my name down. If it caused them to put thought into a production timetable, i guess they think it is worth $1000. End of the day it is what it is and both of us will continue without filing bankruptcy. There are more important things in this world, as I discovered last year.




last response for me:


if that $1,000 really meant nothing to you,why post this all over the internet ?

business is what it is,you signed a contract,recall that ? they should've kept your $1,000

if that $1,000 really meant nothing to you,you would've walked away quietly

time for negotiating is BEFORE a contract is signed,NOT after


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

predacious said:


> last response for me:
> 
> 
> if that $1,000 really meant nothing to you,why post this all over the internet ?
> ...


The way I see it is a future buyer can learn something from this thread. Also this thread is way better than the "what skiff to buy" or "what push pole is the best". It's something different to discuss.


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## Tx_Whipray (Sep 4, 2015)

I'd ask them if you can sell the slot...then I'd wait a couple of months and advertise it. You might even make a few bucks if you can cut a couple months off someone else's build time.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Ok, dibs on buying up build slots and selling them for a premium price. Nobody else do this, this is my plan, I called dibs.

Oh you want a nice skiff, you can wait 6 months like an average joe for $1000 or you can be a luxury person and get in next month for a luxury price


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

I see both sides of this. The builder is not out anything in this time frame and could easily refund the deposit. On the other hand, the purpose of the short refund window is to keep flaky buyers from getting antsy and finding something else while the waiting period drags on. Just like in this case. lesson learned hopefully.


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## tjtfishon (Feb 9, 2016)

I think the builder is has a very short term outlook on business if they will not refund the deposit. As others have said, it is not so much a purchase of time and materials as an "I'm a real buyer, not just a shopper" gesture from the buyer. 

No real consideration has been given by the builder in exchange for the $1000, so there may not be a valid contract even with a signed written agreement. I would also suggest legal advice, not to settle it in the courts with a lawsuit, but spending $50 or $100 on a consultation on contract law in your state. Maybe even the attorney general.

I'm in the automotive business, and as others have stated in their line of work, deposits are refunded all day long, even when given as non-refundable. Even if the contracts are enforceable (often they are not) it is really not worth the word of mouth or reputation to stick it to your customers (or ex customers) like that.

I believe the OP is being reasonable and giving all the facts, not just the ones he thinks are in his favor, and looking for opinions. Clearly most of the posters think he is wrong to expect a refund, but I still think it is reasonable for him to state the name of the business so anyone can make an informed decision weather they want to go through the same thing themselves.


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## Snookyrookie (Sep 9, 2016)

Tx_Whipray said:


> I'd ask them if you can sell the slot...then I'd wait a couple of months and advertise it. You might even make a few bucks if you can cut a couple months off someone else's build time.


Honestly I already told him I'm not going to take it, I would imagine he told the next guy he moved up already. I guess if he's not refunding the deposit i could be a real jerk and keep that spot tied up, but that's not who I want to be, I don't want some other guy waiting because I was a jerk.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

@Snookyrookie - my condolences for your loss. I lost a best friend to DD, a good friend's father was killed by a DD, and even more loss related to alcohol itself.

The time on the water with my grandfather, my father-in-law (who just passed way last month), my dad, my brothers and my friends are some of my happiest memories.

I'm glad you found a boat that meets what you need. Please do post some pics and contribute to this board. This is a great place for tips, do and don'ts, gear tips, etc. THT can be a tough crowd, but this board seems to have a good niche of people willing to help one another out. As you can see, nobody here was a plan out dick about this.

Enjoy that boat and go make some new memories with it. Every time you think of your dad while out, he is there with you. And post some pics of it!


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

For you guys who suggest getting a legal opinion here's another thought on that. One of the key things the legal system looks at is precedent. Lets take this example. If you could show that the builder had issued refunds in other situations then you may have a case. Just another reason to be consistent with your contract. Then the precedent is on your side.

And one other point. Yes you can say that the builder isn't out anything at this point. That may or may not be correct. One of the reasons in any business for a deposit is to hedge against business losses when somebody backs out. Take this scenario where a boat builder has a waiting list. How many potential sales do they lose because somebody wants a boat but is not willing to wait whatever the time frame is so they go elsewhere. Several buyers back out and all of a sudden a month has been cut off the schedule to where that buyer may well have been willing to wait. Bottom line is that there are just so many variables at play that it makes it really tough to know just when a builder is really out any money or lost business if they start returning refunds.


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

I bought from that builder ...very happy with them

did something cheaper or better come along ?
of course , it always does but the guy and his employees are awesome !


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

Call me strange but when I put money down on something I quit shopping the item. I live with the decision.

I bet if your house caught on fire and you needed deductible money or you had another expensive emergency, your deposit would have been returned. Pronto.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> How many potential sales do they lose because somebody wants a boat but is not willing to wait whatever the time frame is so they go elsewhere. Several buyers back out and all of a sudden a month has been cut off the schedule to where that buyer may well have been willing to wait.


On the other side of the coin, if the build schedule and wait time just improved due to someone bowing out, then how many more potential customers that the boat builder has, will pull the trigger to get a boat built due to the improvement of delivery time? It's all relative!

If a builder has multiple people backing out of the deal in one month due to this one guy backing out, then that builder has bigger problems on his hands, than that one buyer. Might be something else they are doing to cause that.

On a business stand point, refunding a simple deposit before the business of building the boat and the time lapse of doing so was on a long leash as the OP's boat with them, then it's only good business to let it (the deposit) go back to him and keep the vibe on the business referral side, a positive one.

Of course, on the flip side of this, if the builder started the build and a full down payment was issued from the buyer, then he decides to back out later in the build, then no question, that's a different story. In that case, the builder is in it financially and the buyer would just have to "man up" with it.


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## CaptainRob (Mar 11, 2007)

If the contract is sound, then refunding your deposit would be a "nice gesture" NOT a legal responsibility. Although deposits are refunded all the time, there is no requirement to do so and there should be no negative outlook on the business if the agreement was understood by both parties.


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## mwong61 (Jul 28, 2013)

I have put down a deposit for that same builder. Very clear what I was getting into. 5 days to change my mind was very clear. But they also made clear if something came up (I lost my job, funding fell through, whatever) that they are willing to let me cycle through the build list (put me back down at the bottom when my time came). Not just once but twice. Meaning I could probably buy an additional 6-8 months with their current build time to recover from the situation and proceed with the build. 

Like EDK13 mentioned, I have also stopped shopping because I came to the conclusion that the skiff that will be built for me is the best choice and customized to my needs before I wrote the deposit check. That's not to say I wouldn't consider it if a super duper killer deal came along. But I would factor in losing my deposit as part of the price.

In no world or reality would I consider that the builder pulled a "dick move" for abiding by the mutually agreed upon terms. COULD the builder have bent over backwards and refunded the deposit? Sure, but I COULD also hand out hundred dollar bills to the panhandlers on I-4 at the SR 46 exit in Sanford. But I don't. I dunno, is that a "dick move"? Can I afford to? Sure, maybe once or twice before the missus finds out Likewise, whether the builder could "afford" to return the deposit or how that may or may not impact their cash flow, build schedules, etc is absolutely irrelevant. 

I don't agree the OP had a neutral stance and was simply looking for feedback. He made a pretty disparaging remark in the original post about the builder for simply doing what they had both agreed to.

Michael-


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## tjtfishon (Feb 9, 2016)

Well I have taken plenty of deposits over the years, all of them stated as non-refundable, for ordered vehicles. I have also had plenty of people change their mind, circumstances change, or whatever that wanted to back out of the deal. I have never felt entitled to keep their money "just because I could" or because a contract says non-refundable and have always cancelled the deal and sold their car to someone else.

In a few cases I might have really emphasized the "non-refundable" aspect like if someone wanted to order a car with really weird colors or options, but luckily none of them ever backed out...if they had it would have still been hard to justify keeping their money when they had received no valuable consideration for that deposit. In fact, if it really came down to it, I have been told that without the exchange of valuable consideration, there is no valid contract no matter what kind of written or verbal contract is in place.

So yes, I think it is a "dick move" for the builder to keep the deposit and I've been on both sides of similar situations.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

tjtfishon said:


> Well I have taken plenty of deposits over the years, all of them stated as non-refundable, for ordered vehicles. I have also had plenty of people change their mind, circumstances change, or whatever that wanted to back out of the deal. I have never felt entitled to keep their money "just because I could" or because a contract says non-refundable and have always cancelled the deal and sold their car to someone else.
> 
> In a few cases I might have really emphasized the "non-refundable" aspect like if someone wanted to order a car with really weird colors or options, but luckily none of them ever backed out...if they had it would have still been hard to justify keeping their money when they had received no valuable consideration for that deposit. In fact, if it really came down to it, I have been told that without the exchange of valuable consideration, there is no valid contract no matter what kind of written or verbal contract is in place.
> 
> So yes, I think it is a "dick move" for the builder to keep the deposit and I've been on both sides of similar situations.


I think cars and technical skiffs are a bit different in that it is a niche market and a builder is pretty lucky to move 8-10 skiffs in a month, whereas selling 50+cars in a month is pretty normal for a reasonably sized car dealer...


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## tjtfishon (Feb 9, 2016)

yobata said:


> I think cars and technical skiffs are a bit different in that it is a niche market and a builder is pretty lucky to move 8-10 skiffs in a month, whereas selling 50+cars in a month is pretty normal for a reasonably sized car dealer...


It is a close enough comparison. Prices, volume and overhead are higher and margins are much lower on cars also. Still, it is a deposit for a future purchase of a titled asset.

Some car dealers would do the same thing if they could....still a dick move


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

So lets take this scenario. I'll put down my deposit to "get in line." But I am really just hedging my bets. I am really still looking for that sweet deal on a used XYX but if I don't find one then I am in the cue to have a new ABC skiff. If I do find a used XYZ I'll just whine all over the internet and hope ABC relents and gives me my deposit back. Man a win win for me for sure.

I am not saying the OP had any such motive on his mind, in fact I dont think so. But I am also damn sure there are lots of guys who do this exact thing.


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## tjtfishon (Feb 9, 2016)

ifsteve said:


> So lets take this scenario. I'll put down my deposit to "get in line." But I am really just hedging my bets. I am really still looking for that sweet deal on a used XYX but if I don't find one then I am in the cue to have a new ABC skiff. If I do find a used XYZ I'll just whine all over the internet and hope ABC relents and gives me my deposit back. Man a win win for me for sure.
> 
> I am not saying the OP had any such motive on his mind, in fact I dont think so. But I am also damn sure there are lots of guys who do this exact thing.


 But who loses? No one really. And I don't think it really happens all the time. Maybe someone who builds them can clarify if this is an exception or common.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

tjtfishon said:


> It is a close enough comparison. Prices, volume and overhead are higher and margins are much lower on cars also. Still, it is a deposit for a future purchase of a titled asset.
> 
> Some car dealers would do the same thing if they could....still a dick move


I think they are very different, one is buit from scratch and the time has to be accounted for that build process. That time also lengthens the waiting line for new prospective customers who may or may not accept a 6 month wait. Maybe 5 months is the breaking point for some buyers. Custom skiff builders don't have massive production lines like an auto plant.

With a car if you don't find what you like you can just move on to the next dealer or lot. Someone will have what you want in a 500 mile radius.


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## tjtfishon (Feb 9, 2016)

el9surf said:


> I think they are very different, one is buit from scratch and the time has to be accounted for that build process. That time also lengthens the waiting line for new prospective customers who may or may not accept a 6 month wait. Maybe 5 months is the breaking point for some buyers. Custom skiff builders don't have massive production lines like an auto plant.
> 
> With a car if you don't find what you like you can just move on to the next dealer or lot. Someone will have what you want in a 500 mile radius.


When talking about a special order car that you put a deposit on because it isn't ready do drive home today, it is a pretty close comparison.

If you are talking about a silver F150 XLT then I would agree it is a world of difference, but you would't be putting a deposit on something like that.


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## anytide (Jul 30, 2009)

you throw 46 large into a used skiff and want deposit back for backing out on a build......eat it!


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## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

tjtfishon said:


> When talking about a special order car that you put a deposit on because it isn't ready do drive home today, it is a pretty close comparison.
> 
> If you are talking about a silver F150 XLT then I would agree it is a world of difference, but you would't be putting a deposit on something like that.


The way I see it he put down a deposit and clearly knew the contract - then purchased another skiff!! It wasn't hardship, he didn't lose his job, or job relocation, or a medical disaster, or Baton Rouge flooding - he broke the contract to purchase a HB Pro. I'm sure if it were a hardship case the manufacturer would have given back the deposit in a NY minute. These skiff builders aren't freaking putting out skiffs like Ford or GM or even Porsche, lol.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Megalops said:


> The way I see it he put down a deposit and clearly knew the contract - then purchased another skiff!! It wasn't hardship, he didn't lose his job, or job relocation, or a medical disaster, or Baton Rouge flooding - he broke the contract to purchase a HB Pro. I'm sure if it were a hardship case the manufacturer would have given back the deposit in a NY minute. These skiff builders aren't freaking putting out skiffs like Ford or GM or even Porsche, lol.


This. Frankly I think its BS that the OP asked for it in the first place!! Its so typical of today's society. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Alright guys, the horse is long gone and buried. The OP clarified why he posted and the back story. 

Everyone go fish now.


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

coconutgroves said:


> Alright guys, the horse is long gone and buried. The OP clarified why he posted and the back story.
> 
> Everyone go fish now.


X10!!!!!!!


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## MAV181 (Aug 26, 2010)

Busch league.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

We seem to be ignoring the possibility that there is more to the story. Perhaps it is not as simple as them refunding a deposit. Maybe they taxed him a grand for being a pain in the ass.


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

I used to be in sales and I have common sense. If you sign a contract and send money, continue to shop, buy a different boat, and ask for your money back you're in the wrong. How is this thread still going? Also it's not like it was Fred's Boats, it's a very good builder where most people who are looking at this builder reading this thread are going to be thinking worse of the OP than the builder. Next thread. Roll Tide.


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## Limp Shrimp (Aug 23, 2015)

Backwater, you might be part of the problem more so than the solution. .. The biggest problem in this country right now is a lack of accountability for decisions made, especially in regard to financial decisions. .. we just let people off the hook no matter how stupid they are. .. there was no confusion here, the OP new he was wrong, you could tell by the way his original post read... I couldn't care less what florida law is, it's written by the same idiots that almost bankrupt the whole country... IMO,, you make a deal, you stick to your word....if your a person who can't stick to your word, don't broadcast it on the Internet. ..


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

Sorry, but giving back the deposit is simply enlightened self interest.
JC


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Limp Shrimp said:


> Backwater, you might be part of the problem more so than the solution. .. The biggest problem in this country right now is a lack of accountability for decisions made, especially in regard to financial decisions. .. we just let people off the hook no matter how stupid they are. .. there was no confusion here, the OP new he was wrong, you could tell by the way his original post read... I couldn't care less what florida law is, it's written by the same idiots that almost bankrupt the whole country... IMO,, you make a deal, you stick to your word....if your a person who can't stick to your word, don't broadcast it on the Internet. ..


Limp, it's not me dictating who does what, it's Florida Law! Aside from that, no exchange of product was given nor any work started by the builder. A judge would rule that no product given nor service rendered for the exchange of monies. Sorry guys, that kind of written deal is worthless in court, no matter how you feel about it..

Believe me, I totally understand what you feel is right. I fought plenty of times with my managers when a customer changed their minds for whatever reason, including buying something else. So yes, it sucked to see that happened and I've given back more $1k-$5k deposits than I care to know. But the managers all knew the law and said there was nothing they could do to keep their deposits. Beside, in the end, I've either sold them something else later or got at least a good word or recommendation from them when we kept it on a positive note.

In all my years, I've never seen anyone brow beat someone down so bad, about opinions on asking for a deposit back, than on this thread. Seems like everyone knows who the builder is and is going to defend them tooth and nail. Don't be so shell-shocked about it, since it happens all the time, be it right or not.

I'm not the bad guy here so don't be flogging me about it. I'm just stating a less than known fact about the subject.


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## Limp Shrimp (Aug 23, 2015)

Backwater, I don't really agree with your point of view, but you have every right to it. . I'm not looking to flog you or make you feel like the bad guy. .. my apologies. .. I normally don't get involved in these kinds of topics.... I was in business for 20 years and once I got over being nice to people that just like to take advantage of situations, I was a lot more successful at it...


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

What the law allows and what a person should do are frequently two different things. In this case, the law may allow a refund to be claimed regardless of promises made or contracts signed. Should a person be true to his word or hide behind the law? Ask your mother.


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## MSG (Jan 11, 2010)

Keeping a $1000 deposit is not worth the trouble or ill will - regardless of your agreement. especially if you have not incurred real hard costs. I'm in sales, I own a business - this sort of thing happens - nothing worthwhile to gain long term - I would have given it back.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Here's a simple thing to try. When you decide you want to buy something after doing your due diligence then stop looking. I spent over a year trying to find a used bay boat that fit my desires. There just wasn't one out there that was close enough to fit what I wanted. And along the way I looked and researched new boats a ton. After a year my wife and I decided that just ordering the boat we wanted was the best way to go. So we did.

We placed the order and stopped looking at boat ads. We made our decision. We were happy with that decision and the only thing that could come from further looking was heartache. Just pains me to no end that we have lost common sense and accountability. What right and whats legally correct used to be much closer to the same thing.

For those who own a business and decide for whatever reason to return deposits good for you.That is certainly your right as a business owner. But that doesn't mean every business owner should do so. Its their business. And to me this has nothing to do with the business practices of a company and everything to do with a person being responsible for their own actions.


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## RobA (Aug 21, 2015)

I would not rely on any advice contained in this thread related to the legality of non-refundable deposits or Florida contract law in general.


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## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

I like turtles.....


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## anytide (Jul 30, 2009)

lol
this is awesome.......


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## kensfl (Oct 22, 2010)

RobA said:


> I would not rely on any advice contained in this thread related to the legality of non-refundable deposits or Florida contract law in general.


This.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

RobA said:


> I would not rely on any advice contained in this thread related to the legality of non-refundable deposits or Florida contract law in general.


True, hire a lawyer for legal advise! However, nothing legally keeps someone from asking for their deposit back if their buying circumstances changes for whatever reasons.


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

Backwater said:


> True, hire a lawyer for legal advise!


legal advice - not legal advise


something tells me,this gentleman has done this before."this" being put up a deposit,continue shopping,change his mind and expect his deposit to be returned


doing business,in the current environment,it often requires a lawyer !this very thread,should serve as "proof positive"
unfortunately,this has become the norm


people,just gotta love 'em


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

predacious said:


> legal advice - not legal advise
> 
> 
> something tells me,this gentleman has done this before."this" being put up a deposit,continue shopping,change his mind and expect his deposit to be returned
> ...


I may disagree with how Backwater would handle this specific situation but he is a valuable contributor to this forum, so I don't think picking him apart is in good taste. To quote a friend "That guy has held more fish, than casts you've made."


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

Backwater said:


> Not hardly buddy! My long term experience with this, working for very large companies, is that I've been on the other end where I HAD to give their deposit back! Believe me when I say it's no fun. But if it's done with a good attitude, it will come back to you in other ways and not negatively effect you or the business in ways you weren't expecting. Personally, I've never ask for a deposit back since I do my research and settle on something. But I've given plenty back to buyers, for whatever their reasons were, not cried about it and moved on with doing more business with other people. If you're doing your job right, then it's a numbers game. Like this builder who had a long waiting list. Some deals you chalk up as a no close and then you move on to the next guy in line! Sure, I've been tough, held their feet to the fire to get them to believe their original decisions they made and moved forward to close the deal. But it doesn't always work out that way. That's business, like it or not and that's life.



I like how business works - I understand the game and I've been in business for myself for the last 23yrs.learned a lot

one thing I learned - I NEVER played the deposit game !
if you're selling something - taking a deposit often times means trouble.my reply was allways "come back when you've got the full amount"

builders taking a $1,000 deposit on a build slot is fine - but,dealing with a wishy washy client isn't...clearly,this guy was wishy washy
it's a principal thing - contract clearly states deposit isn't refundable.this guy decides he's going to allow the internet lawyers try this case for him.he's the kind of guy that would attempt to renegotiate the deal @ closing time
best to let this guy go - let someone else deal with him


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## anytide (Jul 30, 2009)

if you dont have anything constructive to add to the thread stay off it.
--if thats even possible.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Some people on here needs to bring themselves up to speed on the buyers remorse laws in FL before giving out bullsit advise/opinions.

http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/main/18c35b713adbd1ad85256cc90053b3bc!OpenDocument

Buy a car and return it in 3 days...I don't think so. Would this also apply to home sales then? Any realtors in the audience that would know the answer to this question?

http://www.haas-castillo.com/faq/contract-law-faq/

The OP made a post to test the water and found out it was too hot and pulled his boots up and took the heat and admitting he was wrong. He's done with this thread and we should be too.


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

Snookyrookie said:


> Honestly I already told him I'm not going to take it, I would imagine he told the next guy he moved up already. I guess if he's not refunding the deposit i could be a real jerk and keep that spot tied up, but that's not who I want to be, I don't want some other guy waiting because I was a jerk.


Jesus....this guy admitted 7 DAYS AGO (9/21/16) that he wasn't asking for the deposit back. Let it go already!


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

1. The OP claims he wasn't out to bash the builder.
2. The OP admits he fully knew the builders deposit policy.

So just what is the point of asking the internet the question in the first place?
1. Really to give the builder some bad press? 
2. Get some internet yahoos (yup me included) to support his position so he can shame the builder to give him his deposit back? (I suspect he knows full well that builder gets on here.)
3. Alert potential buyers to beware about deposits?

Pretty hard to see any reason for posting this other than some ulterior motive, especially when they had posted it on THT and gotten blasted there too.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Holy crap guys, let it die already!


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## csnaspuck (Apr 2, 2013)

You know when someone sends out a company wide email and someone replies to all and then numerous people after continue replying to all asking to be taken off that email. 

Just saying!


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