# Chinese Fishing Gear



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

I got a link to this site in my email this morning. Some of you may find it interesting.

http://www.flyfishingsupplier.com/


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## Jfack (Nov 2, 2014)

That vm reel looks slick haha. For that cheap I'd be willing to give it a try. And I've seen that backing before... Relogear.com


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## pt448 (Mar 22, 2014)

This one looks kinda familiar...


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

damn...


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

I personally choose not to intentionally buy products made in China. Others can do what the feel ok with. I just have some first hand knowledge of their "business practices."


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## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

If you intentionally avoid Chinese tackle the choices will be VERY limited. Try finding something like a swivel or a circle hook that's not made overseas. You will have a pretty hard time. The fact of the matter is Chinese gear can be made to just the same specifications as it is here. You get what you pay for. If you buy a pack of jigheads for a dollar you're going to get poor quality. Pay a little more and you'll get quality gear, regardless of where it's made.


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## pt448 (Mar 22, 2014)

jimsmicro said:


> If you intentionally avoid Chinese tackle the choices will be VERY limited. Try finding something like a swivel or a circle hook that's not made overseas. You will have a pretty hard time. The fact of the matter is Chinese gear can be made to just the same specifications as it is here. You get what you pay for. If you buy a pack of jigheads for a dollar you're going to get poor quality. Pay a little more and you'll get quality gear, regardless of where it's made.


Sampo swivels are made in the US.
All Eagle Claw hooks are made in the US.
Owner and Gamatsu hooks are made in Japan.
Avoiding Chinese stuff is hard in most areas, but there is plenty of quality fishing gear NOT made in China.


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## pt448 (Mar 22, 2014)

Another interesting comparison:








http://www.flyfishingsupplier.com/index.php?id=3677
"
1.*This reel is a totally new reel from our own design for 2016 season.*

2.100% totally waterproof drag system

3.Multi-disc drag make the drag power to be super big. And also smooth

4.Super light and also strong enough body

5.Very easy left and right hand change

6.This is the best waterproof reel for new season. We combined all of the best and newest concept on one reel.

7. *Regular colors are black and Gunsmoke. Customer logo and color can be made for order more than 30 pieces each model.*
"









"Orvis introduces an entirely new line of reels for spring 2016, with extremely fast line retrieve (8.25 inches per second in the Hydros SL III trout reel size), completely sealed drag, and a new design to enhance rugged durability.

*According to Sam Orvis (yes that's his real name), Orvis Rod and Reel designer, 'This is a totally new reel, designed from square one *and about the only thing similar to the original Hydros is the name. The original Hydros, while it had a long sealed drag, did not always retain its seal and the clutch bearing itself was not sealed at all. In the Hydros SL, the clutch bearing is fully sealed inside the drag mechanism and the inside edge of the spool is strengthened for better support. ' "

Hmmmm... something seems a little fishy here.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

pt448 said:


> Another interesting comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Chinese aren't exactly known for their respect for intellectual property.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

There's a difference between buying Chinese "gear" and buying Chinese "counterfeits".

A swivel or a circle hook is a little different than a backwards engineered and then copied reel or etc.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

I know the owner of mudhole tackle. He told me that the Chinese will build whatever you order at whatever price you want. If you want and only want to pay for a piece of crap reel that's what youll get. If you have them build a duplicate of a Shimano reel and are willing to pay them for it that's what you will get.

He also told me that when he needs tool and die work to have them stamp out or mold products a set of dies that cost 50K to have made in the US cost him 5K in china and are just as good. Pretty hard to deal with that.

I suspect that the Chinese are a lot like American industrialists were back in the early days, deadly competitive and ruthless.


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## GullsGoneWild (Dec 16, 2014)

4.Super light and also *strong enough body*

^This says it all.


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

pt448 said:


> Another interesting comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The SLIII goes for $219. I have a hard time believing they couldn't have that made in the US for $110 and still maintain a reasonable 100% mark-up. I say shame on Orvis.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Blue Zone said:


> The SLIII goes for $219. I have a hard time believing they couldn't have that made in the US for $110 and still maintain a reasonable 100% mark-up. I say shame on Orvis.


*They're busy with R&D on the $200 dog beds.....*


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

similar to BVK....I wonder if these are the same facilities that just omit a couple of the machining steps (relief cut in spool spoke, and chamfer cut on spool ID) and market as a different product. 

BTW, some of the descriptions on that site are hilarious 

"And then decide if to upgrade your tackle to fight for more experience, or just use this for a happy time in some water without monster"


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

If I needed a new reel I would try one. Heck looks like american companies are just putting their name on it


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## Jfack (Nov 2, 2014)

I don't understand why fly reels are so expensive anyway.


permitchaser said:


> If I needed a new reel I would try one. Heck looks like american companies are just putting their name on it


I kind of bet this is the case. It says on their site customer logos and color can be added...


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

Last time this subject came up I looked at their website and I think you have to buy in bulk. At least the rods you do.


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## Jfack (Nov 2, 2014)

GG34 said:


> Last time this subject came up I looked at their website and I think you have to buy in bulk. At least the rods you do.


The VM reel says you can buy 1. Its 30 reels to get a logo on them. They have a loop classic knock off too! i wonder if these "american" reel companies buy these, then add on the few minor parts like their own drag knob and handle to make it "american made."


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## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

If American based companies don't want their reels, packs, waders, and goods copied by the Chinese they shouldn't send them to China to be mass produced so that they can make extra dividends.

They know that just buy slapping their logo on there they can sell you a $30 reel for $300.


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## pt448 (Mar 22, 2014)

LowHydrogen said:


> "And then decide if to upgrade your tackle to fight for more experience, or just use this for a happy time in some water without monster"


That's a good one.


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## mingo gringo (Dec 1, 2015)

I received a few Chinese reels from a friend who does business there. I examined a reel that cost him $75 bucks. Has the same exact drag as a company selling a reel for over $400 part for part. It's exactly as someone said,that they are rebranded as there own reel. I've put a bunch of bones a few permit and bunch of other drag screamers on this reel and have had no issues with the drag. I know some of you don't want to support Chinese crap but it's hard to pay over 4x the money for the same product.


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## pt448 (Mar 22, 2014)

mingo ****** said:


> I received a few Chinese reels from a friend who does business there. I examined a reel that cost him $75 bucks. Has the same exact drag as a company selling a reel for over $400 part for part. It's exactly as someone said,that they are rebranded as there own reel. I've put a bunch of bones a few permit and bunch of other drag screamers on this reel and have had no issues with the drag. I know some of you don't want to support Chinese crap but it's hard to pay over 4x the money for the same product.


I agree. I would never buy a reel from Orvis or Allen because they are just ridiculously marked up Chinese reels that you can get from the site Vertigo posted. It's not that they're not good, but buying an American made reel from an American company is worth the investment because it supports the US economy and those companies who choose to keep production here in the states (and thus the jobs and money generated by their business here in the states). It's a personal choice and I prefer to buy American when possible. There are reasonably priced American options from Colton or Lamson just to name a couple. Fishing gear is probably the easiest place to steer clear of Chinese stuff. There are plenty of rods, reels, line, lures, etc. that are made here or places like South Korea, Malaysia, Costa Rica, etc.. If you do choose to buy Chinese gear, buying direct from that site seems like a good way to save some dough. They've got GoPro's on there that look very intriguing (no non-Chinese alternative).


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## Jfack (Nov 2, 2014)

pt448 said:


> I agree. I would never buy a reel from Orvis or Allen because they are just ridiculously marked up Chinese reels that you can get from the site Vertigo posted. It's not that they're not good, but buying an American made reel from an American company is worth the investment because it supports the US economy and those companies who choose to keep production here in the states (and thus the jobs and money generated by their business here in the states). It's a personal choice and I prefer to buy American when possible. There are reasonably priced American options from Colton or Lamson just to name a couple. Fishing gear is probably the easiest place to steer clear of Chinese stuff. There are plenty of rods, reels, line, lures, etc. that are made here or places like South Korea, Malaysia, Costa Rica, etc.. If you do choose to buy Chinese gear, buying direct from that site seems like a good way to save some dough. They've got GoPro's on there that look very intriguing (no non-Chinese alternative).



Allen makes reels in the u.s. (The omega). They also sell a much cheaper kraken and at least don't false advertise that. They also are one of the few reel companies offering a nice military discount. I didn't see any of those reels on that Chinese site resemble the Allens but I also didn't look hard. 

You're computer or phone your typing on isn't American.. Even the truck you drive isn't. Actually, Toyota Tundra, and Nissan Titan (my truck) have more American made parts than a Chevy truck (according to Edmonds). Ford ranked the highest percentage of American parts, but still wasn't all American made. 

How much of that reel has to be made in the US to be able to advertise it as such? Probably just a drag knob and handle, and to be assembled here. So you might think you are steering clear of non us made fishing gear, but I personally doubt it. Just my opinion though. I probably won't buy a reel off that Chinese site though, my next will be Allen since they offer a military discount unlike the many other reel companies I looked up. If I'm feeling patriotic I'll buy the more expensive omega or other reels they come out with this week


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Wasn't Ted Juracsik born in Hungary or Poland or some other former Eastern Bloc country. I may as well get a Hammer & Sickle tattoo. 

Totally kidding, I love Tibor, I don't have a dog in this hunt, just wanted to stir the pot a bit....


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Ask Orvis if the Chinese signed a nondisclosure agreement.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

I believe that overwhelmingly most stainless steel comes from China. If you consider the raw resources, is anything really 'made in the US'?


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

My dad was a submariner in the pacific in WWII, he would rather have died than have bought anything Japanese when he was alive. He hated them with an unrelenting passion. The atrocities they committed against the Chinese, Koreans, Phillipinos and American and British prisoners is well documented. Yet we buy their stuff all the time.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Japan is not a threat to the US in today's world. China is the #1 cyber security and industrial espionage threat against the US.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

LowHydrogen said:


> Wasn't Ted Juracsik born in Hungary or Poland or some other former Eastern Bloc country. I may as well get a Hammer & Sickle tattoo.
> 
> Totally kidding, I love Tibor, I don't have a dog in this hunt, just wanted to stir the pot a bit....


Hungary. I might be screwing this up but I'm pretty sure he fought against the soviets and the AVH in the 1950's. Lot's of people fled after Budapest was crushed in November of '56. The communists were real assholes about the whole thing. I would imagine the sought asylum and eventually made his way to New York where he started a tool and die business. The story of how he got into building fly reels is pretty cool but I'm too fuzzy on the details to try and repeat it. 




ifsteve said:


> Ask Orvis if the Chinese signed a nondisclosure agreement.


Let's not forget that the Whorvis flagship Mirage reel is a Korean made reel.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

jmrodandgun said:


> Hungary. I might be screwing this up but I'm pretty sure he fought against the soviets and the AVH in the 1950's. Lot's of people fled after Budapest was crushed in November of '56. The communists were real assholes about the whole thing. I would imagine the sought asylum and eventually made his way to New York where he started a tool and die business. The story of how he got into building fly reels is pretty cool but I'm too fuzzy on the details to try and repeat it.


That comment was made in jest, it was Hungary and that guy is definitely a Full Blooded Badass. Check this out for some cool history on the guy and origin of his company.





Back on the Chinese supplier I emailed them about one of the fly boxes on their site. Looked pretty decent, got a prompt reply..
"Thank you for leaving message on our website. 
We are the best fly fishing tackle supplier in China providing a wide range of fishing tackle to clients worldwide for years. 
The price of the boat box is $12 each one. They are in stock, there is not MOQ. 
Please kindly check the price list of the fly box in the attachment. Most of the products are in stock now.
Could you please tell me that do you order the box for your personal use or for sale?
If there is any question please feel free to let me know.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Best regards"

Does anyone know how to upload a pdf file? They sent me a list of the whole line of fly boxes they offer, some waterproof, some large, some small They seem to range from really nice looking to avg dept store quality. I will post it if I can figure out how. If not maybe I'll upload to dropbox and link the file for download.

LH


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## pt448 (Mar 22, 2014)

jmrodandgun said:


> Let's not forget that the Whorvis flagship Mirage reel is a Korean made reel.


That's interesting. I was under the impression that all Orvis reels were made in China (except for the CFO, which is made in the US). I thought the BVK was also made in Korea as well, but these guys have a copy of it.

I found this and it may explain why Orvis isn't too concerned with this Chinese company.

*Orvis Launches US-Made Mirage Reel*

BY ANGLING TRADE ON 06/07/2016









The big push for Orvis this year is going to focus on two reel models and a line of accessories. We are most intrigued about the American-made reboot of its Mirage reel. This one is going to sell for $649 for a size 5, but it’s going to feature a number of Cadillac design elements that warrant that price. Examples: 330-degree drag adjustment with 27 detents (easy to access and operate, using a patent-pending ball-and-ramp design; Type III military-spec. anodization (the best level available for scratch and corrosion resistance; and hardened steel clickers and plate. This one is going to be bombproof.
https://www.anglingtrade.com/2016/06/07/orvis-launches-us-made-mirage-reel/

Orvis has begun gradually offering more and more American made products. Good for them.


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## pt448 (Mar 22, 2014)

Jfack said:


> Allen makes reels in the u.s. (The omega). They also sell a much cheaper kraken and at least don't false advertise that. They also are one of the few reel companies offering a nice military discount. I didn't see any of those reels on that Chinese site resemble the Allens but I also didn't look hard.
> 
> You're computer or phone your typing on isn't American.. Even the truck you drive isn't. Actually, Toyota Tundra, and Nissan Titan (my truck) have more American made parts than a Chevy truck (according to Edmonds). Ford ranked the highest percentage of American parts, but still wasn't all American made.
> 
> How much of that reel has to be made in the US to be able to advertise it as such? Probably just a drag knob and handle, and to be assembled here. So you might think you are steering clear of non us made fishing gear, but I personally doubt it. Just my opinion though. I probably won't buy a reel off that Chinese site though, my next will be Allen since they offer a military discount unlike the many other reel companies I looked up. If I'm feeling patriotic I'll buy the more expensive omega or other reels they come out with this week


Yes, parts and materials are sourced from all over for everything we buy. I don't see how that has any bearing on my personal choice to support American workers and the companies that employ them. My comments were not meant as a knock toward Allen or the kraken (which according to everything I've heard is a great reel). Offering a military discount is great and anything that supports our service men and women should be commended. It'd be nice if they offered veterans jobs too though by making their products here, but it's their business and they can run it however they want. I merely shared how I choose to spend my money on fishing gear. This is America and everyone can spend their money however they want.

Just a quick example of my thought process: If I'm going to buy a commonly available top water plug I choose to buy a Mirrolure that's made in Costa Rica and then shipped to Florida for final assembly and testing by American workers vs. a Heddon or Bomber that's 100% made in China.

Also, I don't know for sure if you're in the military or just like companies that support our military, but if you are then thank you very much for your service and protecting our freedoms (including discussing things like this freely in a public forum and buying whatever fishing reel or truck we choose).


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## Jfack (Nov 2, 2014)

pt448 said:


> Yes, parts and materials are sourced from all over for everything we buy. I don't see how that has any bearing on my personal choice to support American workers and the companies that employ them. My comments were not meant as a knock toward Allen or the kraken (which according to everything I've heard is a great reel). Offering a military discount is great and anything that supports our service men and women should be commended. It'd be nice if they offered veterans jobs too though by making their products here, but it's their business and they can run it however they want. I merely shared how I choose to spend my money on fishing gear. This is America and everyone can spend their money however they want.
> 
> Just a quick example of my thought process: If I'm going to buy a commonly available top water plug I choose to buy a Mirrolure that's made in Costa Rica and then shipped to Florida for final assembly and testing by American workers vs. a Heddon or Bomber that's 100% made in China.
> 
> Also, I don't know for sure if you're in the military or just like companies that support our military, but if you are then thank you very much for your service and protecting our freedoms (including discussing things like this freely in a public forum and buying whatever fishing reel or truck we choose).


Yes I'm in the army. I wasn't knocking you either, i just read it and since I quoted you it did seem like that but I only quoted to say Allen does have the omega and maybe others that are completely American made. Then rambled on with my own thought process. Sorry it sounded like I was going on about your post. But you kind of did knock them when they are American workers offering an American made product. So it made no sense why you specifically mentioned you avoid them but I'm sure you didn't know they offer a USA made reel. My bad man!
I'm with you though, if I see American made I will pay more for it, but only to an extent. I'm also in dental school so I'm pretty broke, and for whatever reason fly gear is all so expensive. I never understood why such a simple design (fly reels) go for such high prices. And fly boxes! I spent $55 on a fly box.... It's a freaking lunch box with foam lol.


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## js555 (Aug 21, 2015)

If you love America, you do not buy chinese...
If you love the environment, you do not buy chinese...


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

js555 said:


> If you love America, you do not buy chinese...
> If you love the environment, you do not buy chinese...


Never thought about the environmental aspect; good point.

I tried to find the criteria for the "Made in USA" label, but it is approved on an item by item basis by the FTC. Some of the vague wording is:

To prevent consumer confusion, the FTC’s policy requires substantiation for US origin claims based on an “all or virtually all” standard. If a product is merely assembled here, but uses imported goods, an American origin claim would be improper. If a manufacturer is advertising a product as made in America, it should only contain a “de minimis, or negligible, amount of foreign content.”

The Yellowstone Angler reel shootouts (and perhaps rod shootouts as well) mention where each product is made.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

LowHydrogen said:


> That comment was made in jest, it was Hungary and that guy is definitely a Full Blooded Badass. Check this out for some cool history on the guy and origin of his company.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can save a PDF as a JPG


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Keep in mind 1" is 25.4 mm, that'll help you judge size.

This was not the entire list, just the larger more saltwater oriented. It would have taken a long time to upload everything. PM if you want more details and I'll just email you the PDF.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

So now we are flat out advertising for Chinese gear on here.....SMFH


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

ifsteve said:


> So now we are flat out advertising for Chinese gear on here.....SMFH


No.
The title of the thread is Chinese Fishing Gear.

My post was a contribution to that effect. If the thread was "Made in the US" gear I would cave contributed accordingly. In no way am I advocating spending money overseas if your budget and inclinations allow otherwise. Anything to the contrary is a misrepresentation.

I understand the importance of buying products made by/in the US. The fact is people on a strict budget cannot always justify $50 for a Cliff's box, $850 on a Sage Salt, or $350+ for a Pro4X or are just unwilling to pay that much. It's unfortunate, but for many it comes down to buying foreign gear or not fishing. I'm not going to admonish anyone because they can't afford something.

I work hard, but have also been very fortunate, I try to buy locally when possible/practical, to support the local economy, even when it costs me more to do so. My boat was made 1 hr from my house, my other boat was welded by a guy that lives in the same town as me.

With all that said, @ifsteve I definitely do understand the sentiment......so here is an alternative, that, while more expensive likely won't break the bank.

Below is a Morell fly box it's made in the US. It's not waterproof but it does float. I got a couple for $25 each at the Orvis shop when I was staying in Baldwin MI.

Apologies for the long post.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

LH

Should have been more clear and I apologize for that. What I was trying to say is that why not just post a link to whatever those guys might want to look at? Having to scroll down a bunch of pictures to get to the next post was what I was trying to avoid.

Sorry,

Steve


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

ifsteve said:


> LH
> 
> Should have been more clear and I apologize for that. What I was trying to say is that why not just post a link to whatever those guys might want to look at? Having to scroll down a bunch of pictures to get to the next post was what I was trying to avoid.
> 
> ...



Ahhh, got it. No worries, I misunderstood your original post. 

I wanted to upload a link to the pdf but photo-bucket wouldn't let me upload a pdf, so I saved as jpeg as @yobata schooled me on, and went that route. 

Unless it's a review I'll work on making it less billboard like going forward. Ha

LH


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Hey no worries LH....and besides anybody who has a Spear boat can't be a bad guy......


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

From a purely economic perspective there have been numerous studies done which support that it's actually bad for the US economy as a whole to buy an American-made product which costs more money than a foreign-made product which is basically the same item and performs the same for less money.

I'm sure it has impacts at an individual level but on a macro level, overspending to buy something simply because it's made in the USA actually removes unnecessary amounts of capital from the US economy.

I won't get into the entire argument but it basically boils down to the division of labor and efficient allocation of resources.

That being said, I'll very happily spend $640 to buy a Tibor Everglades over $340 for the Allen Kraken XLA because I believe the Tibor to a significantly better product.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

pt448 said:


> This one looks kinda familiar...



http://www.flyfishingsupplier.com/

I went to this site and looked at their video and when it got to shipping I saw a bunch of Orvis boxes ready to ship out


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

permitchaser said:


> http://www.flyfishingsupplier.com/
> 
> I went to this site and looked at their video and when it got to shipping I saw a bunch of Orvis boxes ready to ship out


 Man I thought you were kidding, watched the video.....No you weren't. I need to get in a biz with margins like that!!


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

4:25 for those needing assistance.


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## Tomfsu51 (Aug 24, 2015)

That video is comical! Even their logo is a close knockoff of the Lexus auto logo.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Division of Labour....Emile Durkheim


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I think I'll buy some for $60 then put a price and logo on them and sell them for $500. The logo will be Fin-Nor ...yea that's the ticket!!!


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

permitchaser said:


> I think I'll buy some for $60 then put a price and logo on them and sell them for $500. The logo will be Fin-Nor ...yea that's the ticket!!!


They'll never pass for Fin nor, don't have the massive drag.

Call them PFG (Permit Fly Gear) and put a cool azz pic of a permit on there and you have a great item to sell. If all else fails, you can discount them to $199 and sell them to Orvis.

LH - Since you started this, can you shoot them an email and ask them what products they make for Orvis...that might be a good read.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

DuckNut said:


> They'll never pass for Fin nor, don't have the massive drag.
> 
> Call them PFG (Permit Fly Gear) and put a cool azz pic of a permit on there and you have a great item to sell. If all else fails, you can discount them to $199 and sell them to Orvis.
> 
> LH - Since you started this, can you shoot them an email and ask them what products they make for Orvis...that might be a good read.


Man, I didn't start the fire, I just threw the gas.....lol


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

LowHydrogen said:


> Man, I didn't start the fire, I just threw the gas.....lol


Maybe so, but you already established contact with them. Send a quick email and see what they say.


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

I asked them about reel pricing and they sent me the pdf file of all of them. Their most expensive reel at the lowest qty was $113. I asked for shipping cost just to see how much for one reel. Not sure I'd buy one other than just a beater but I can't believe they can make them so cheap.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

DuckNut said:


> Maybe so, but you already established contact with them. Send a quick email and see what they say.


Email sent, I'll report back with any info I get.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

DuckNut said:


> They'll never pass for Fin nor, don't have the massive drag.
> 
> Call them PFG (Permit Fly Gear) and put a cool azz pic of a permit on there and you have a great item to sell. If all else fails, you can discount them to $199 and sell them to Orvis.
> 
> LH - Since you started this, can you shoot them an email and ask them what products they make for Orvis...that might be a good read.


That's the ticket....Permit fly gear


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

They have contacted me several times. Mary is the name she sent a PDF of all their fly reels. 
I may buy a fly rod and reel for my grandson on their birthday. I also looked up Tibor reels to see what a $700 reel looked like and saw a black one that looked just like the Chinese reel

I also may get the $69 large arbor 11/13 water proof. They also have fly tying gear. I may get a new Vice. Call it all Permit fly gear


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

permitchaser said:


> They have contacted me several times. Mary is the name she sent a PDF of all their fly reels.
> I may buy a fly rod and reel for my grandson on their birthday. I also looked up Tibor reels to see what a $700 reel looked like and saw a black one that looked just like the Chinese reel
> 
> I also may get the $69 large arbor 11/13 water proof. They also have fly tying gear. I may get a new Vice. Call it all Permit fly gear


Send your new friend Mary a nice note asking what are some of the brand names here in the U.S. they mfg for.

Enlighten us PFG!


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

DuckNut said:


> Maybe so, but you already established contact with them. Send a quick email and see what they say.


Didn't expect to get any real specifics, and didn't.
The question...
Lily,
Thank you for your previous correspondence.
Could you tell me which products that your company manufactures for any of the major companies in the US such as Redington, Orvis, TFO, Cabela's? 

The answer...
"We have produced the products for Redington, Orvis, TFO and so on. We are the best fly fishing tackle supplier in China. 
Could you please introduce your business to us a little?
Best regards"
Lily


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## Halfhitch (Feb 5, 2008)

Out of curiosity I checked much of this out about a month ago as a result of an earlier posting by Vertigo. I haven’t yet ordered anything but the people (I dealt with Mary also) were very helpful. For a knock-around and to check their quality without a great deal of investment first, I was looking at the ML in 7/9 and asked her to quote it. She sent a “PI” by email, which is a “Proforma Invoice” (basically a Purchase Order) with details and a Purchase Number. You then pay by PayPal (there is a small fee) at the email given on the PI. They send by “Standard Export Package” and, if I recall correctly, this is usually means about a week or week and a half, but I didn’t specifically ask about it.

Her quote was ML - $37.30, Shipping $21.70, PayPal $2.60 (built into total), Total $61.60. There is a possibility of a Customs charge/Duty of $10, but I understand it is not normally collected if the order is under $200 and is not part of their quote as it would be collected upon delivery. Think this mostly applies to commercial orders.

My wife ordered some things several times a couple of years ago from a different manufacturer and was very pleased with the quality and service by that manufacturer. Even returned a couple of things and they were very cooperative. Each order was under $200 and there was no Customs/Duty charge. The only problem she ever had was delivery time – sometimes a week or so, sometimes several weeks, and sometimes hung up in customs causing a delay. A lot depends on how they ship.

Leichi has lots of fishing stuff, and are proud of their reputation, but I have a lot and don’t have an immediate need, so haven’t ordered anything yet. But still might. Let us know what you find out.


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## CrappieFisherman (Mar 15, 2015)

Looking at their VM reel. With shipping and PayPal, should only be around $100...not too bad. However, pulling the trigger might have to wait until I have a new 6 wt rod to place it on.

http://www.flyfishingsupplier.com/index.php?id=1458


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks LH

I am starting to think that they mfg the reels for the U.S. companies and then change the design by 10% and call it their own. Kudos.

Sounds more legit with every contact made.


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## pt448 (Mar 22, 2014)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> From a purely economic perspective there have been numerous studies done which support that it's actually bad for the US economy as a whole to buy an American-made product which costs more money than a foreign-made product which is basically the same item and performs the same for less money.
> 
> I'm sure it has impacts at an individual level but on a macro level, overspending to buy something simply because it's made in the USA actually removes unnecessary amounts of capital from the US economy.
> 
> ...


That's an interesting point. I've never thought about it that way,but it makes a lot of sense.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

LowHydrogen said:


> That comment was made in jest, it was Hungary and that guy is definitely a Full Blooded Badass. Check this out for some cool history on the guy and origin of his company.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just double click on the attachment on your email or right click and save to your documents


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

They are located in Hong Kong not mainland China. So they may be a private business


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Vertigo said:


> I got a link to this site in my email this morning. Some of you may find it interesting.
> 
> http://www.flyfishingsupplier.com/


Thanks for the link. I ordered a CNC fly reel and 8 weight fly rod from them and will report back when I get it in 7 days


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## labman1 (Dec 27, 2015)

permitchaser said:


> Thanks for the link. I ordered a CNC fly reel and 8 weight fly rod from them and will report back when I get it in 7 days


What did shipping cost for that order?


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## zthomas (Jan 14, 2014)

Similar thing for boat stuff -- nearly exact knockoffs of well-known brands. Take a look, for instance, at the pumps. Most items seems to be around 1/3 the price of the "originals."

Site takes a few seconds to load. Maybe because the servers are in China?

http://www.amarinemade.com/


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

labman1 said:


> What did shipping cost for that order?


Rod, reel and fly line $37 FedEx with tracking number


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## labman1 (Dec 27, 2015)

Thx for the info!


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I placed my order on Tuesday and received the fly reel yesterday. I purchased one of their inexpensive reels for my 10 year old grandson. Well he can use this baby till He's my age. its CNC 6061 aircraft aluminum, smooth. The drag can be cranked down so I'll check it with my boga to see the lb. 
I am suppose to get the rod and fly line Tues. And I'll post some pictures


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## CrappieFisherman (Mar 15, 2015)

permitchaser said:


> Rod, reel and fly line $37 FedEx with tracking number


Wait, was that just $37 for the shiiping, or for everything? Also, what models did you order?


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

permitchaser said:


> I placed my order on Tuesday and received the fly reel yesterday. I purchased one of their inexpensive reels for my 10 year old grandson. Well he can use this baby till He's my age. its CNC 6061 aircraft aluminum, smooth. The drag can be cranked down so I'll check it with my boga to see the lb.
> I am suppose to get the rod and fly line Tues. And I'll post some pictures


What model reel did you go with?edit doh! (Crappie already asked this) We don't want a couple pics we want a full review man lol! Highly interested in seeing those drag numbers.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

LowHydrogen said:


> What model reel did you go with?edit doh! (Crappie already asked this) We don't want a couple pics we want a full review man lol! Highly interested in seeing those drag numbers.


I wiil wait for the rod to come in next week. To take the reel apart there is a knob that you un- screw for a while but it does not come off you just lift it apart and the knob stays on. They put a little dab of grease on the shaft. Fit and finish is good I've seen many reels not this good costing way more
The shipping of $37 was for a reel, rod and fly line


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2016)

I ordered an FMD 7/9 on a Monday, was here on a Friday. Paid via PayPal. They do make you pay the PayPal fee which came to like $2.25. Came FedEx. $100 reel and shipping. Comes with neoprene case

Plan on putting it on an 8 wt rod and finding a school of big jacks next weekend to put it to see what it can do

I used the direct chat method to order. I asked some questions, and without 'vivian' saying it exactly, This is the Orvis hydros SL with some minor machining difference. Drag is greased and adjusts very easily. Not sure how to describe this, but there is very little side to side play when you try to pull the seat and reel apart. Reel is smooth, advertised as sealed drag, which the hydros also is

FYI this company is on Alibaba so you could order in bulk very easily and resell if interested. They will put whatever logo you want on reel and the box. They also make the TFO reels which look almost identical on their site


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Tarpon Nole said:


> I ordered an FMD 7/9 on a Monday, was here on a Friday. Paid via PayPal. They do make you pay the PayPal fee which came to like $2.25. Came FedEx. $100 reel and shipping. Comes with neoprene case
> 
> Plan on putting it on an 8 wt rod and finding a school of big jacks next weekend to put it to see what it can do
> 
> ...


I ordered the same reel in 11/13 but they were out. I then ordered a 06N for my grandson


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

permitchaser said:


> I ordered the same reel in 11/13 but they were out. I then ordered a 06N for my grandson


Forgot to mention PayPal only charges a fee on international purchases


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

You'd think they would eat that as a cost of doing business.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Tarpon Nole said:


>


Tarpon Nole, welcome to Microskiff. Please come join in and participateon the Fly Fishing forum here on Microskiff and chime in on any subject you like. Please make replies or ask questions on any subject as well. To add any experience or value to the FF forum, start your own thread too. 

We are all interested in seeing how your new reel performs. So please give us feed back here and on the Fly Fishing forum. 

Ted


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## js555 (Aug 21, 2015)

I hope that nobody orders these items anymore. Although a good price, they will rust, break, fail or something...
We should NOT support copycats, we should not take money away from USA manufactures that get killed by all the taxes fees etc... not to mention all the research and development that they are doing and stolen by some low life company. BUY AMERICAN ! We can not support... continue to support the largest communist country super power in the world ! This is NOT American ! Stealing intellectual properties is wrong, as an artist I have to deal with this sort of violations often and it hurts.
Sorry but that is how I feel.


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## CrappieFisherman (Mar 15, 2015)

js555 said:


> I hope that nobody orders these items anymore. Although a good price, they will rust, break, fail or something...
> We should NOT support copycats, we should not take money away from USA manufactures that get killed by all the taxes fees etc... not to mention all the research and development that they are doing and stolen by some low life company. BUY AMERICAN ! We can not support... continue to support the largest communist country super power in the world ! This is NOT American ! Stealing intellectual properties is wrong, as an artist I have to deal with this sort of violations often and it hurts.
> Sorry but that is how I feel.


I'll buy American when it is cost effective...which is about as American as it gets, and is what separates our economy from more dictative cultures. I am not restricted to US products, and don't want a dictator telling me I have to.

BTW, saying a product will fail just because it is from a country you do not like is not a good way to get others to value your opinion. If you have facts, state them to support your claim, otherwise save those opinions for yourself.

Oh, and I dare anyone to purely buy American. I bet your boat, rod, reel, line, clothes, car, and computer all either are, or have some components that are foreign made. Assembled in USA is not the same as made in USA. Even if some of those components are pure US made, check on the raw materials, the manufacturing process and tools, etc, and I guarantee you will find foreign components, many of which are Chinese.

For me, I don't mind buying certain Chinese products, because buying Chinese continues to bind China's economy to ours. This brings more money into the hands of the Chinese people, who then want to use that money for something...look up the democratic zones in China to understand what I am saying. The more the West interacts with China, the more the Chinese people want to interact with the West. This is why the Chinese government is so desperate to restrict social media and the internet. The walls are coming down, slowly, in China, and if my buying a reel from them contributes, in any way, then great.


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## js555 (Aug 21, 2015)

Crappie Fisherman

Good points you make there... However, it is a known fact that many and even according to Chinese businessmen that they products they make are not as good as products made in other places. ( read the book Hot flat and crowded )
As fisherman, specially fly fishermen that practice catch and release and as a nature lover myself, is also a matter of environmental issues. I can not support a country where not only human rights, animal rights, land rights, and flat out respect for mother nature is being dissolved by the obsessive need to produce and make money at any cost. Poisoning even their own air, water and resources.
This is my main complain about China. Yes many of our products have components made in other places. But we do have a choice at times. And when we can make the right choice, then we can feel good about it.












CrappieFisherman said:


> I'll buy American when it is cost effective...which is about as American as it gets, and is what separates our economy from more dictative cultures. I am not restricted to US products, and don't want a dictator telling me I have to.
> 
> BTW, saying a product will fail just because it is from a country you do not like is not a good way to get others to value your opinion. If you have facts, state them to support your claim, otherwise save those opinions for yourself.
> 
> ...


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## CrappieFisherman (Mar 15, 2015)

js555 said:


> Crappie Fisherman
> 
> Good points you make there... However, it is a known fact that many and even according to Chinese businessmen that they products they make are not as good as products made in other places. ( read the book Hot flat and crowded )
> As fisherman, specially fly fishermen that practice catch and release and as a nature lover myself, is also a matter of environmental issues. I can not support a country where not only human rights, animal rights, land rights, and flat out respect for mother nature is being dissolved by the obsessive need to produce and make money at any cost. Poisoning even their own air, water and resources.
> This is my main complain about China. Yes many of our products have components made in other places. But we do have a choice at times. And when we can make the right choice, then we can feel good about it.



That is a much better argument, and I do agree, especially with the environmental points. With that said, and this is where I have not done my research surrounding the company this thread is concerned with, not every company in China has these same policies. If we use our purchasing power to support those companies trying to do better, then that can also make a difference.

Also, I support having options for a lower cost of entry into Fly Fishing. Yes, US and Western made products are better, but they are cost prohibitive to new anglers, especially those from poorer socioeconomic backgrounds.

Trust me, I am from Maryland, and I know a lot about poor environmental practices. One needs to look no further than the Chesapeake Bay to see this country's environmental history. With that said, I believe if everyone practiced catch and release fishing, especially fly fishing, then public opinion concerning the environment would be very different in this country.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

View attachment 1429


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

What is the argument if orvis gets their reels from the same supplier? How is it inferior?


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## js555 (Aug 21, 2015)

GG34 said:


> What is the argument if orvis gets their reels from the same supplier? How is it inferior?



If indeed they make this for Orvis... which I am not 100% sure of.
As George above would get reprimanded for double dipping... so should this company.
And ethically if Orvis or others are making their stuff at that factory... then shame on them. 
That is not cool... but if you are cool with that... oh well.
#supportamerica # supporttheenvironment


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

I fully support buying American but as duck nut pointed out in the video some of the background boxes were labeled for orvis. I'm not buying one but seems the real criminal is the company charging a 400% markup. That is what drives business overseas.


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

My parents own a small diner in NC and I'm in full support of buying local and buying an American product. But in this case if, as it seems, they make products for Orvis and TFO, then these companies are really just doing what so many clothing and hardware companies do. If you were going to buy a reel or rod at your local fly shop then you're helping that person pay for rec soccer for their kid, but if you're ordering online from Orvis, then you're just helping an already large company make more profit. I'd rather buy these Chinese reels and save a buck instead of going to Orvis, but when it comes to my next Rod, I'm going to Scotty at the fly shop.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Orvis is not gouging on anything they sell, research and development on equipment isn't cheap.

$550 LMAO
View attachment 1443


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

LowHydrogen said:


> Orvis is not gouging on anything they sell, research and development on equipment isn't cheap.
> 
> $550 LMAO
> View attachment 1443


I like you bookmark toolbar choices!


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Why spend $400 on a reel from Orvis when you can buy the same reel from China for $40? When you buy from Orvis, almost $40 will go to China anyway. The other $360 will go to a company that's making an obscene profit by sending jobs overseas. 

As far as R&D goes, I can design a new reel on my home CAD program and get all the testing and input I need from my fishing buddies. Sure, Orvis can spend a bundle on marketing, but that's mostly made up BS designed to sell junk to people who don't know any better. 

Paying a premium for a product just to support misguided ideas of buying American or buying local is not encouraging American productivity, just the opposite. Overpaying just drives the cost of American goods even higher and makes us less competitive in the world marketplace. I'm not making this up.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Very good thread guys and some very good perspectives.

Now, Ted Haas... With The Rest Of The Story, For What It's Worth

Here are a couple of other points....

1.) If they are making reels for Orvis and alike, there is no loyalty there to their customer (which is a big one).

2.) If you have either done business over there either online or actually there, they disregard any patents or copywrite laws we have over here and they continue to copycat everything and anything, weather it be the same stuff with a different label or outright using the same label. You can go over there and buy any fashion labels (i.e. Nike, etc)(copied), any technology which they don't even bother reverse engineer them, or any copy-write label (i.e. Microsoft software, any movie label or record label) for a fraction of the cost There is no way to police those things over there much less being able to catch illegal importing of these copy cat labels over here in the States. So that stuff floods other third world countries with not way to control or regulate it.

3.) We are not just talking about China here but other countries like Hong Kong, Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, Malaysia, Pakistan, India and even Mexico trafficking such produces thru their country to us. There is no loyality to what they produce for U.S. companies, not U.S. patents of products produces here. They shipping and smuggling of such products is multible times bigger than what the drug trade ever thought about being, and if busted, there are just modest fines and a good slap on the wrist, but no jail time served, which causes them to continue their operation thru some other channel.

Last year at iCast there was a chinese vendor who was show casing fly reels, rods, lines and accessories, which many of there products were the described situation above. The show was geared towards dealers and many of the mfg's were all up in arms about what they were doing and their products. Nothing was supposed to be sold there at the show either (was for displaying only), yet they were privately selling out of their boxes. They were warned and shut down multiple times during the show by the show manager. Again, no real loyalty there.

I've met people that have been over to these countries that have looked at their manufacturing processes. No EPA, no regulations by the gov'ts, they are ruining their own environments. Here is an example, in Russia and Nigeria, there is an oil rig spill yearly the size of what we had with the last big Gulf BP oil spill. In Thailand, they bulldoze the mangrove estuaries and marshes to make way for shrimp and tialpia farms (which of couse hurts their nursuries and estuaries for juvinal native species). Those ponds receive water from unregulated farm fields (no EPA), which has no regulation with pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers and that all dumps into the fish holding lakes. They cram so much fish in shrimp into those lakes/ponds that they cause bacteria and diseases to form. So they pump in antibiotics. So they live in a toxic cesspool. The tialapia is feed a fish meal (like dog food) made out of the crap they are growing with those chemicals and the shrimp eats the fishes crap. So you can imagine what's in the meat. THEN, they harvest the meat (and out of ice for many hours) and ship it ALL to china, where they sort and package it for shipment here to the U.S.. They store it in freezer containers and can sit for months in cold storage. The time it takes from harvesting to arriving at Walmart can be up to 6 months. So go to your frozen section of Walmart and look at the frozen Tilapia and shrimp you are buying and eating and see where it comes from. China! China doesn't raise farm raised seafood. That's why I don't eat seafood from Walmart. Even the wild caught salmon goes to china for processing.

Here's a dirty little secret you may or may not know about with some products regulated by our gov't to "protect" out U.S. mfgs. When foreign products come in to the U.S. that are produced here in the U.S., our government requires them to raise their prices and then hit them with a very small tariff tax. Here's an example. Many U.S. companies like Motorola mfg's semi conductors. Say a semiconductor chip cost Motorola $9 to produce which they may sell for $16. But the same chip, just reversed engineered to get around the patents can be produced in Korea and delivered to U.S. soil for $1.75 (Btw, this is a true story), then the U.S. gov't will require them to raise their prices to $7 and customs will tac on another 40 cents worth of tariff to bring the total competing price to $7.40, which is exceptable to Motorola. The end results is Samsung (Opps, did I say that  ) I meant to say that Korean mfg pockets an additional $5.25 of pure profit and guys like you and I have to pay up for that extra profit that our government required them to make. Shame on all counts! But a lot of industries are not protected by such regulations. Anyways, if our Gov't would allow those countries to bring them in cheap, then add a steep tax to their vendor here in the U.S., then we might just be able to save our U.S. based companies and maybe pay down on the national debt that our esteemed president has incurred.  Otherwise, let them pass on the savings to us individuals here in our country to help our own living expenses and help our own economic growth.






Ted Haas


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## labman1 (Dec 27, 2015)

Permitchaser and Tarpon Note, any updates on the reels/rod performance?


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

Vertigo said:


> Why spend $400 on a reel from Orvis when you can buy the same reel from China for $40? When you buy from Orvis, almost $40 will go to China anyway. The other $360 will go to a company that's making an obscene profit by sending jobs overseas.
> 
> As far as R&D goes, I can design a new reel on my home CAD program and get all the testing and input I need from my fishing buddies. Sure, Orvis can spend a bundle on marketing, but that's mostly made up BS designed to sell junk to people who don't know any better.
> 
> Paying a premium for a product just to support misguided ideas of buying American or buying local is not encouraging American productivity, just the opposite. Overpaying just drives the cost of American goods even higher and makes us less competitive in the world marketplace. I'm not making this up.


Well, for Orvis, it's poetic justice to see their pirated products come in from China to haunt them; good move Orvis. 

However the mark up is not 400% as you state. The FMD 7/9 for $100 is the Hydros 7/9 which goes for $239. 

I posted this in the Off Topic section a couple of days ago:

"Not wanting to derail the thread in the General section, I thought I would bring this up down here.

As I mentioned on another thread, last year I bought a Mercury for my son's Whaler only to find out it was made in China which was quite annoying as I do my best to avoid Chinese-made products.

Whether it's Mercury, Orvis, TFO or any other company which chooses to have their products made in China, at least those companies generate an income chain local to the US to include their own company and their retailers which in turn help to support their respective local economies. The US sport fishing industry supports many other related entities to include specialized digital and print fishing magazines, cross promotions, tournaments and more importantly non-profit entities such as CCA, Trout Unlimited, etc. which in turn aim to preserve our fisheries.

My gripe concerns these Chinese companies that are selling products direct to consumers, bypassing the entire sales/distribution chain, while contributing absolutely nothing to the above-mentioned income/support chain. At the same time they are clearly circumventing significant design, R&D, and marketing cost outlays these companies have made over the years to bring their products to market and up to today's standard. China considers itself immune to any copyright and patent laws; it is piracy pure and simple. I'm sure we'll hear that this stuff performs perfectly; why shouldn't they if they are an exact copy?"

Add to this China's environmental issues pointed out by js555. Everything is fine if you want us to become a service centric nation with no internal production choking on China's fumes while they make nice things for us. 

The false Chinese "business" model is just wrong.


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

I often catch hell for driving a Toyota Tundra for the past 9 years. I enjoy explaining to the Chevy and Dodge folks how I am supporting the US vehicle market more so than they are. I buy a ton of stuff from eBay that comes from China. It's really hit or miss when it comes to quality. I will say that their Spectra Braid, especially the larger 80-100#, is by far the cheapest and best I've found. To each their own..


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

labman1 said:


> Permitchaser and Tarpon Note, any updates on the reels/rod performance?


I have the rod and fly reel. Put 200 yards on 20 lb. Dacron on the reel then WF fly line and still had room for more. Haven't cast the rod yet or tested the reel for max lbs of drag


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

permitchaser said:


> I have the rod and fly reel. Put 200 yards on 20 lb. Dacron on the reel then WF fly line and still had room for more. Haven't cast the rod yet or tested the reel for max lbs of drag


It's 10:47 and I went out in the yard to test the rod. Line rocketed out and its very light weight but fast. Cast about 60-80 ft on first try then came in before the mosquito ate me alive


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## MSG (Jan 11, 2010)

permitchaser said:


> It's 10:47 and I went out in the yard to test the rod. Line rocketed out and its very light weight but fast. Cast about 60-80 ft on first try then came in before the mosquito ate me alive


Any update on the reel?


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Let me play Devils advocate to Ted's points 1 & 2.

What if Orvis simply paid the extra .15 cents to have their logo put on these reels? What if Orvis' r&d center is this company? Loyalty. Whom is being loyal to whom? The assumption is being made that Orvis is the one driving the ship, and we all know what happens when one assumes. What if this company produces ALL of the equipment for Orvis and TFO? Maybe they are being loyal by not selling the other products that they mark up even more and just sell the less expensive models. Maybe, just maybe, the China guy said to Orvis - thank you for your business on these two models, we can make all of your products and we will keep all of these other ones off limits to the public?

Patents. If you want to protect your item from being pilfered then you need to go through the process of applying for and being granted a patent. Then after you spend the $150,000 or so getting your US patent you can then apply for your international patent, which will run into the millions of dollars and it has to be applied for in each country you seek protection. 

So, if you are not a savvy business and protect your item with international patents, you certainly should know better than to take the manufacturing process to a foreign country to broadcast your intention to make huge money off their labor pool. If not, then you deserve all of the positive and negative repercussions that accompany this decision.

There are so many issues and variables that go into a manufacturing deal with foreign countries and if you are ill prepared, ill informed, ill equipped, and underestimate the business world, you deserve what becomes of it. In this case, very respectable equipment at a fraction of the cost.

To the guy who doesn't like the Chinese because they pollute - really? Take a look around. Look at a satellite view of the earth. Anywhere you see brown water, that is water that has been polluted by industry. Look at the St. John's River. I grew up near a river that did not freeze even when the Great Lakes froze completely over. As a fly fisherman, you should have at least heard of the grayling, a fish so sensitive to pollution it no longer lives in the entire United States. The cutthroat trout will be the next one gone and shortly followed by the brook trout. 

I am just glad that the website is written in English so people can buy/try their goods and have money left over for gas for their boat

I would be remiss if I failed to point out that permitchaser received all of his goods from half way around the world via FedEx for $27. I can't ship a package to my next door neighbor through FedEx for $27. Who is FedEx favoring?


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

I agree with ducknut, and in all honesty I would buy one of these reels over ordering an Orvis or TFO reel online. Again, I support buying from your local fly shop and paying a few dollars more than buying online from anyone. 

I'm hoping to get a TFO BVK 8wt in the next couple of months from my local shop. However, if I didn't have a local shop and my only options were buying online or buying from basspro, I'd be googling my fingers off to find out if these Chinese guys make a BVK.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

mtoddsolomon said:


> I agree with ducknut, and in all honesty I would buy one of these reels over ordering an Orvis or TFO reel online. Again, I support buying from your local fly shop and paying a few dollars more than buying online from anyone.
> 
> I'm hoping to get a TFO BVK 8wt in the next couple of months from my local shop. However, if I didn't have a local shop and my only options were buying online or buying from basspro, I'd be googling my fingers off to find out if these Chinese guys make a BVK.


I shop nearly exclusively locally. When a merchant has an item I want or need, I don't care where it came from, I just want that item and buy it from them. I support the little guy as much as possible and try to keep my dollars in my community and out of the chain stores hands. This is not always possible but that is what I try to do. Nor do I go and find an item at a store andr hen order it online because I can save $3. Not right in my eyes. I want my community neighbors to succeed.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

I get tired of hearing local merchants boo-hoo-ing over the fact that they're being run out of business by online and big box stores. The only locals that are being run out of business usually deserve it because they don't provide the *one thing only they can.*...*SERVICE*. Local small businesses have a huge advantage in that they are in position to deal directly and personally with customers. Instead, many just try to sell the same items available elsewhere but marked up to take advantage of the customer's need for instant gratification. They don't keep much stock, they don't do repairs, they don't really take much time to educate customers or have knowledgeable staff to answer questions. How many times have you gone into a local store and asked for info or parts and had to wait while the clerk finished his personal cell phone conversation, only to be told that the item wasn't in stock, the clerk didn't know what it was, but he could order it for you? This is the kind of local business that deserves to fail. OTOH, the local tackle shop that keeps good stock, has a competent repair department, and has friendly clerks who know the business and can answer questions will always get my business on* fairly priced items*. I'm willing to pay more for good *SERVICE.* But, I'm not willing to be cheated by paying 5 times what a Chinese made item is worth. The companies that are distributing outrageously priced Chinese made goods are truly the ones screwing the local shops over, not the Chinese or the people who buy Chinese goods directly.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Exactly.

And the various shops that are open weekdays from 9-4 when the working man is working. I don't know too many people that will take time off work to go buy $20 worth of anything.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

My local fly shop is one hour away if I leave at 6 a.m. That is the only one I know of that carries fly tyeing stuff. I could go to Bass Pro but their stores are further away. I needed 34007 hooks in 8-10 size. I went to Augusta GA for work (2.5 hours away) and stopped by the Cabelas. They had 34007 hooks in 1,2 and 3/0 only. I called my friend Gary at the Fishhawk and,ask if he had 34007 hooks. Nope he has gone to Owner and Gamakatsu no more Mustad. He said he had not carried Mustad.for 20 years. So what is Gary doing are the Japanese hooks better or can he make more profit on them
I had to buy Gamakatsu hooks then drive 2 hours home because of traffic
While there I saw Ross fly reels in the case. I wonder who makes those. 
By the way the 8wt. Reel I received from Hong Kong has no marks of origins that I can find on it
So it is easier to go to Amazon as a prime member and buy fly fishing stuff that is delivered in 2 days free. I don't know were its made and don't care

I live in a country that deregulated the textile business tell me if you have a textile plant near you. The ones we had in GA are gone. How about the Steel industry. The US has always had a deficit in that imports have always been more than exports. How many Hyundai's do you have in your neighborhood


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

labman1 said:


> Permitchaser and Tarpon Note, any updates on the reels/rod performance?


I cast the rod today and it's light weight but fast. I could shoot line 90' no problem. It is easy to cast. It is 4 piece and has marks to line up the sections. CNC reel seat with a fighting butt. 8 wt. 
I tied the line to my Boga and cranked down the drag and got 5-6 lbs. of drag. Not very scientific and that was right at the reel so I don't know how to calculate what it would be at the rod tip
I like the rod so much that I am going to order the Japanese nano fiber version


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## js555 (Aug 21, 2015)

" To the guy who doesn't like the Chinese because they pollute - really? Take a look around. Look at a satellite view of the earth. Anywhere you see brown water, that is water that has been polluted by industry. Look at the St. John's River. I grew up near a river that did not freeze even when the Great Lakes froze completely over. As a fly fisherman, you should have at least heard of the grayling, a fish so sensitive to pollution it no longer lives in the entire United States. The cutthroat trout will be the next one gone and shortly followed by the brook trout. "

Ducknut... I can see your point but does it have to be that way ?
Because we also have pollution and environmental issues, does that mean that it is ok ?
" as a fly fisherman you should have at least heard of grayling.. " Wow Ducknut... thanks for such a negative way to approach things 
It seems that you are putting me down for caring about the environment... China washed their waste in the rivers, at least here we have a few more rules and regulations.
This is not an issue about a dollar or two, this is an issue about our kids future and how it impacts globally no matter what they do in china or anywhere else.
If we do not care, if we do not voice our opinion... then what are we leaving behind for our kids ?
I agree with you on what we have done... but again it does not mean because some country with poor standards and abundant ignorance is doing it we should support it.
And that is where I see wrong. Plus there is nothing wrong with supporting America !
I guess some would prefer to bury their head in the sand... personally I will not and I will do whatever I can to ensure offenders get boycotted.
J.


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## zthomas (Jan 14, 2014)

js555 said:


> Anywhere you see brown water, that is water that has been polluted by industry.


Not agreeing or disagreeing with the point you're trying to make, but this particular statement is wildly inaccurate. Do you think the Colorado ran gin-clear through the Grand Canyon 1,000 years ago? Do you suppose the massive brown discharge plume from the Amazon is a result of industrialization?


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

View attachment 1600


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## GullsGoneWild (Dec 16, 2014)

LowHydrogen said:


> View attachment 1600











i like this one better


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## js555 (Aug 21, 2015)

GullsGoneWild said:


> i like this one better


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

js555 said:


> " To the guy who doesn't like the Chinese because they pollute - really? Take a look around. Look at a satellite view of the earth. Anywhere you see brown water, that is water that has been polluted by industry. Look at the St. John's River. I grew up near a river that did not freeze even when the Great Lakes froze completely over. As a fly fisherman, you should have at least heard of the gra
> 
> 
> js555 said:
> ...


You lost your credibility when said if you see brown water on google earth its polluted.


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