# Braided loops for fly lines - or...



## Ferrulewax (Mar 19, 2018)

I have never used braided loops. On my smaller rods I will do a nail knot and a perfection loop to connect leaders, but I understand that this is not the strongest connection possible. That said, I have never had it fail on me. 
On other rods I will double over the fly line and then put 2-3 nail knots over the doubled portion to essentially create a welded loop. I cut off all the tag ends on each nail not and then cover them in glue. 
For my really heavy duty outfits, I use an albright. It isnt the prettiest knot, especially when tied in fly line, but It works for me.


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## Cliff (Oct 13, 2016)

I have always used a nail knot. I suppose this is mostly habit for me. If my leader is going to fail it is not going to be at the connection to the fly line, it will be where I tie in my final piece of tippet. 

My first concern with this connecting knot is the size of the knot and having it get stuck in the guides. If I am using a long leader I have the end of the fly line well into my guides when landing a fish. Often the fish makes a final run or two and the knot that connects leader to line has to come through the guides clean. 

I would be interested to hear if other people have this concern and the knot they use.


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## jsnipes (May 1, 2011)

I've used the Cortland 50 for loops on 11 and 12 wt lines for GTs. It's super strong but creates a really bulky set up. I typically try and make sure there's at least 6 inches of fly line inside of the braid and triple nail knot it w 30lb dacron.

I think on smaller lines, you could use a much shorter piece (2" overlap?) of the loop and single or double nail knot to keep it more manageable in size.


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## jsnipes (May 1, 2011)

Cliff said:


> My first concern with this connecting knot is the size of the knot and having it get stuck in the guides. If I am using a long leader I have the end of the fly line well into my guides when landing a fish.  Often the fish makes a final run or two and the knot that connects leader to line has to come through the guides clean.
> 
> I would be interested to hear if other people have this concern and the knot they use.


yea, i broke my 12wt on the 1st GT I caught w this setup. the guides popped off the rod like popcorn when it made a final surge.

if I were going to do this on a smaller rod, I would just keep the mono loop short and make it a single nail knot. that should keep it manageable but not going to be as smooth as the welded loop.


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

I whip a loop using mono tying thread. That way there's no color change at the loop, which could cause a toothy critter to cut it.


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## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

Use them with three nail knots. Throw the BS heat shrink in the trash. You can use the premade ones or get braided mono from cortland and make your own.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I have posted on this in the past. I make my own spliced braided mono loop on the rear end of most of my lines. Haven't tried it on the head of a fly line but suppose it would work. Would be ideal if you could find clear 50lb braided mono. The stuff I have is orange.
I use 20 lb spiderwire invisibraid to do the nail knots on top of the 50 lb braided mono. 2 nail knots in total butted up next to each other at the very end of the mono where it starts to fray. I tighten them till the invisibraid turns from white to clear, it sinks down flush and bites into both the braid and fly line. Trim the frayed ends of the braided mono with nail clippers and cover that transition with a very thin coat of loon uv and it's seamless. A little tip. Take the tag ends of the nail knots and tie in overhand loops. Use pens or scissors in the loops to pull the nail knots tight. It's hard to pull hard enough otherwise because the spiderwire is slippery.
If you use dacron to do the nails even with 20 lb it too big in diameter. The knots stick up and catch on the guides. 

You honestly don't need much more than about 6 inches overlap on a 10 wt or under. Maybe a foot on 11-12+. The connection will not fail, I have intentionally tried and been unable to make it fail using weights. Have been able to snap the core of the fly line well above the connection but haven't seen the connection itself fail.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

I don't have any scientific evidence, and haven't tested it on larger rods, but I have used the same technique @el9surf talks about on an 8wt. Was dock light fishing and through a series of stupid mistakes managed to get the butt section of my leader wrapped. Even when on land, I had a tough time breaking the connection. I thought I was going to break the fly line, honestly. I bet I put a solid 20+ lbs of pressure (grab the whole spool, point the rod directly at the snag, and walk backwards), and it eventually failed by pulling the loop loose from itself; it was still attached to the fly line.

This was with cheap Rio braided loops, too. I did the nail knot(s?) to the fly line and added a touch of superglue, and also added the slightest bit of superglue on the braided loop - as close to the fly line as possible without touching it - so that it would help prevent the loop from pulling apart without messing up the "finger trap" action of the braided mono over the fly line or of the spliced loop.

Hope that made sense. I'm curious to see everyone's approaches on heavy tackle too though, since my welded loop on my 10wt is starting to crack.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I have tested my spliced loop connections by deadlifting 20-30lb dumbells and letting the free weights bounce. You'd be surprised at what will fail that you think is a good connection. Honestly it's the only connection that hasn't failed me yet.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Having said that the braided mono is still mono, and susceptible to sharp edges. At that point though I think the whole fly line is susceptible.


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## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

I am with @el9surf for years I have stuck with the braided mono loops. I tried other options but always came back. I use Seaguar Threadlock for backing and also for my nail knots as it lays flat and gives one sexy nail knot. They haven't failed. If you want to use some loop knot sense, knock yourself out but I don't think it is needed. Has anyone that is worried about these failing tried to put 20lb of pressure on a fly rod?


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I would challenge any of you that doubt the connection to try deadlifting a 20lb dumbbell with your favorite connection compared to this. Most of my old connections would fail before you can even lift the weight off the ground. With the spliced loop connection I mentioned above I can deadlift a 30-lb dumbbell with no problem. As nativejax mentioned, putting 20 lb of pressure on a fly rod is probably virtually impossible, but it's nice to know your connections and what their breaking point is.

For the record I won't trust the store made braided loops, I want to make them myself.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

Good info gentlemen!

El9surf - I read your posts on the backing to fly line connection and that was part of what got me to begin rethinking my connections. Store bought loops are convenient and it sounds like they can work well, but I am exploring all current solutions to bring my knowledge up to date. 

The smallest loop I can make in a fly line itself is to strip the coating off, bend the braid back onto the line and whip finish about an inch long. Its not a bad way to go in terms of compactness and simplicity. Pretty smooth too. But it never hurts to look further for an even better solution. 

Thanks again and keep it up if you have more to say.


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## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

Albright works for me but it's hard to cinch down sometimes without cutting the outside cover of the fly line. But it's strong.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

To reiterate, I've put a significant (way more than almost any fly rod could take) amount of pressure on even the store-bought braided loops before the loop opened up. I have lots of confidence in the strength of this setup. The only concern I ever had (and the reason I added a touch of superglue to the "buried end" of the mono) was the potential for the loop to open up due to loading and unloading that might happen during the cast.

One question I have, though, is the stiffness of the braided loop compared to heavier lines. Am I going to have hinging issues with a 50# braided mono loop attached to the end of a 12wt line? I love it on my <8wt lines, but haven't tried much else.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

bryson, 
I will try to pick up some of those loops and report back my impressions. I've talked about the 50 pounders only because I am assuming that they are stiffer than the lighter weight versions. Otherwise 30 pounds seems way plenty for up to 10 weight rods. And maybe there is more abrasion resistance with the heavier material - seems it would be. And what ever else, we do want to keep a "fuse" in the leader system so the leader breaks before we lose the fly line.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

jimsmicro said:


> Albright works for me but it's hard to cinch down sometimes without cutting the outside cover of the fly line. But it's strong.


You can dip the line in acetone and strip the coating off then double back and tie the albright. It will be smaller and easier to pull up tight. Might hinge though. That's why I liked the needle knot with heavy butt mono poked right up into the fly line core. No hinge, smooth, small.


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## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

Yeah I was thinking about that. I think it would hinge but haven't tried it so it might be tolerable especially since I generally throw heavier leader setups anyway and am rarely concerned with the most delicate of presentations. Generally the fish I am targetting are angry and the noisier the better.


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## Rick hambric (Jun 24, 2017)

I cut about an inch on a taper, make a loop, then whip finish the whole thing for about 4” with 20# braid. Never had one break so far, not to say it won’t happen tomorrow.


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## Scrather (Mar 12, 2018)

nativejax said:


> I am with @el9surf for years I have stuck with the braided mono loops. I tried other options but always came back. I use Seaguar Threadlock for backing and also for my nail knots as it lays flat and gives one sexy nail knot. They haven't failed. If you want to use some loop knot sense, knock yourself out but I don't think it is needed. Has anyone that is worried about these failing tried to put 20lb of pressure on a fly rod?


El9, I thought that the nail knots were lighter mono because it has stretchiness and would clamp down when used as a nail knot. I have the Seaguar Threadlock backing too, but never thought to use it for a nail knot because of lack of stretch. Based on your post I’ll rethink that.


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## sidelock (Jan 31, 2011)

The store bought braided mono loops I know of are not done properly and are prone to failure such as what happened in Bryson's case. They simply insert/splice the tag end of the mono inside the running portion and if you pull on the inserted end, it will simply slide out and come undone. If you watch carefully at 1:20 in the video link below he illustrates how store bought loops slip out. The right way to make a fail proof loop is to reverse the braided mono end over itself and do a double catch none slip loop. Once this loop is completed, it will not slide out of itself regardless which side of the loop you tug or pull on.
This is the right way to construct a non slip double catch loop. Unfortunately the video is not in english but the illustration is very clear and easy to follow.
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nndBioZRC4


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

sidelock said:


> The store bought braided mono loops I know of are not done properly and are prone to failure such as what happened in Bryson's case. They simply insert/splice the tag end of the mono inside the running portion and if you pull on the inserted end, it will simply slide out and come undone. If you watch carefully at 1:20 in the video link below he illustrates how store bought loops slip out. The right way to make a fail proof loop is to reverse the braided mono end over itself and do a double catch none slip loop. Once this loop is completed, it will not slide out of itself regardless which side of the loop you tug or pull on.
> This is the right way to construct a non slip double catch loop. Unfortunately the video is not in english but the illustration is very clear and easy to follow.
> ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nndBioZRC4


That's why I make my own. If the mono has been turned inside out it can't slip. The store bought loops are probably fine in freshwater but I'm not taking the chance with saltwater.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

If you pull the tag end to adjust the size of the loop it's done wrong. If you have to pull the main line to adjust the loop size you have it right.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Scrather said:


> El9, I thought that the nail knots were lighter mono because it has stretchiness and would clamp down when used as a nail knot. I have the Seaguar Threadlock backing too, but never thought to use it for a nail knot because of lack of stretch. Based on your post I’ll rethink that.


That's nativejax who mentioned the threadlock so you will have to ask him. I prefer to use the 20lb spiderwire invisibraid for my nails in this situation. Just pull tight till the spiderwire changes from white to translucent and you are good to go.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I use nail knots and pliobond. Some times on my Tarpon rods 2 nail knots and pliobond. Blood knots on connections
no tubes for me


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## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

Not saying anyone is right or wrong here and I have made my own and have store bought. I just tested 3 braided loop connections I had handy. One was one I made the two were either Rio or Cortland brand. No glue, three nail knots with Seaguar Threadlock and each one pulled to max on my 30lb Bogo grip. None failed. I use a three "figure 8" type cats paw as well.


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## NDuncan (Jun 18, 2016)

Almost any of these methods of connecting the butt of the leader to the fly line should do, provided you test the connection to failure and record the results. For almost 60 years I have been looping my tippets on and off a loop knot tied at the end of the tapered leader, this loop to loop connection should be jerk tested to assure that the class tippet fails before the leader connection. My only exception is pre tapered trout leaders.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

All my lines have nail knots except this 13 wt.
Thought I'd experiment a little, but most likely will cut it off latter and tie in a couple nail knots. 
On lines that the butt section will fit, I use a needle to open the end of the fly line and pull the butt mono through, then nail knot (shown on the other line in the pic)


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## BM_Barrelcooker (May 4, 2011)

I use 80# mono and a granny knot


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

Spent more time with this yesterday.

My next question is how do loops made of 50 pound braid mono and 50 pound Threadlock play together? That is looking like my preferred solution.

The following pictures are after making a spliced loop in 50 pound Threadlock, looping that to a factory made fly line loop and then lifting 28.5 pounds. The good news is it lifted the weight. The bad news is the loop would have to be picked apart with a needle to function as a loop again. You will also notice that the fly line loop had a small split starting. I am not liking that.


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## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

Hank said:


> Spent more time with this yesterday. Pictures to follow.
> 
> My next question is how do loops made of 50 pound braid mono and 50 pound Threadlock play together? That is looking like my preferred solution.


My backing is threadloock as well with a splice and I create a cats paw passing a loop to loop connection with the Threaklock and Mono Braid 3 or more times and it locks down very well.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

One thing I don't like about the braided loop is that it doesn't do a nice "handshake" with a loop in 60# fluoro (leader butt section). The fluoro is much stiffer, and the braided mono loop wants to kind of curl around it, if that makes sense.

edit: Picture added. Anyone else have this issue?


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## sidelock (Jan 31, 2011)

bryson said:


> One thing I don't like about the braided loop is that it doesn't do a nice "handshake" with a loop in 60# fluoro (leader butt section). The fluoro is much stiffer, and the braided mono loop wants to kind of curl around it, if that makes sense.
> 
> edit: Picture added. Anyone else have this issue?
> 
> View attachment 62626


You may want to try making the braided mono loop just big enough so that you can twist it and insert the leader through it a second time. The braided loop will sort of look like a figure eight when sinched down on the butt loop if that makes sense. I do the same with the thin backing end to fly line connection.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

sidelock said:


> You may want to try making the braided mono loop big enough so that you can twist it and insert the leader through it a second time. The braided loop will sort of look like a figure eight when sinched down on the butt loop if that makes sense. I do the same with the thin backing end to fly line connection.


That's a good idea -- I do that with backing to help spread the load out on the fly line. This is a store-bought loop, so the loop is small, but I might order some braid and make my own, especially since this will be going on my tarpon stick.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

That or just insert a small section of 20 or 30 lb mono in the braid, inside the loop. Once it's in there I doubt it would work it's way out. Haven't tried but it would take about 45 seconds to do. That would stiffen the loop up a little and add the rigidity you are looking for.


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## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

sidelock said:


> You may want to try making the braided mono loop just big enough so that you can twist it and insert the leader through it a second time. The braided loop will sort of look like a figure eight when sinched down on the butt loop if that makes sense. I do the same with the thin backing end to fly line connection.


+1


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

Added pictures above, post #31.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

Tha


bryson said:


> One thing I don't like about the braided loop is that it doesn't do a nice "handshake" with a loop in 60# fluoro (leader butt section). The fluoro is much stiffer, and the braided mono loop wants to kind of curl around it, if that makes sense.
> 
> edit: Picture added. Anyone else have this issue?
> 
> View attachment 62626


That is not good. Lets see how a twist changes the fit.
You can also dress it up a bit by crimping the mono loop with a small bend to keep the handshake correct.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

_Knot_ being a loop kinda guy, 
I'm curious just how often when out on the water do you change one looped part for another?


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

mro said:


> _Knot_ being a loop kinda guy,
> I'm curious just how often when out on the water do you change one looped part for another?


Knot real often.

I am mostly perfecting my newly refreshed gear rigging. It would have been lots simpler to buy some fresh micron and simply replace the old and re-tie with the same knots I’ve always used. I became intrigued with the super streamlined nature of the hollow core backing splices and it just took off from there. I’d actually like to try a splice from the backing straight to the fly line but 50 pound Threadlock won’t slip over the fly line. Or I haven’t figured out how to do it.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

Hank said:


> streamlined nature of the hollow core backing splice


That got my attention last year... 
The combination of heavier pound test coupled with small diameter and a splice rather than a couple knots sounds pretty good. Thoughts of a rematch in the Sea of Cortez for some "_reel"_ bruisers seemed possible (double pun intended  ). 
But then the guy I'd be sitting with, planing such a trip is gone and it's just not in me to travel out of the country anymore. So if I want to get into some big fish... I'll make the trip to Florida where my gear works just fine as it is.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Hank said:


> Knot real often.
> 
> I am mostly perfecting my newly refreshed gear rigging. It would have been lots simpler to buy some fresh micron and simply replace the old and re-tie with the same knots I’ve always used. I became intrigued with the super streamlined nature of the hollow core backing splices and it just took off from there. I’d actually like to try a splice from the backing straight to the fly line but 50 pound Threadlock won’t slip over the fly line. Or I haven’t figured out how to do it.


I haven't worked with the 50 lb threadlock so can't comment. Do you have a daho needle? Use that to open up the threadlock while also trimming the butt end of the fly line at an angle making the edge sharp so it will insert easier. If it won't open enough that's ok just have to make an adjustment.
Just splice in a section of 80lb hollow core into the end of the 50, the splice will be clean no knots. I know power pro hollow ace will do fine, that's mostly what I have used. Once you have the 80 in line open up the last few feet or 6-8 inches depending on line weight. Under a 9 wt you shouldn't need to feed too much in. 10 wt and over I will do a couple feet as redundancy. Might as well, won't hurt anything. From there just feed your fly line directly into the 80. Nail knot off with a couple at the end and you are good.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

el9surf said:


> I haven't worked with the 50 lb threadlock so can't comment. Do you have a daho needle? Use that to open up the threadlock while also trimming the butt end of the fly line at an angle making the edge sharp so it will insert easier. If it won't open enough that's ok just have to make an adjustment.
> Just splice in a section of 80lb hollow core into the end of the 50, the splice will be clean no knots. I know power pro hollow ace will do fine, that's mostly what I have used. Once you have the 80 in line open up the last few feet or 6-8 inches depending on line weight. Under a 9 wt you shouldn't need to feed too much in. 10 wt and over I will do a couple feet as redundancy. Might as well, won't hurt anything. From there just feed your fly line directly into the 80. Nail knot off with a couple at the end and you are good.


I'm using a doubled over piece of wire leader and the flip-back-on-itself method. Pretty easy and nothing to buy. I will try to pick up a small quantity of 80 pound to see how that goes.
And thanks for all your posts on hollow braid splicing.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

More photos below.

First is with a surgeons tied in a splice loop to get loops of double 50 pound Threadlock. It worked better and could be separated easily after a 28.5 pound lift. Shown tight and loosened.










Next below is the result of a 28.5 pound lift with the doubled loop passed through twice.










Finally below is the result of a 32 pound lift. I was able to just clear the floor by about an inch before the fly line snapped about 6 inches above the connections.










And for what its worth, you would never, ever put 28 pounds on this connection with a fly rod. No where near.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I cut my welded loops off on the butt end and put a braided mono loop for most of my lines. The hollow core can't damage the braided mono loop like it will the fly line coating. You could also feed the fly line into the hollow core directly as mentioned above however changing lines becomes a process of rigging everything again from scratch. On the plus side there are no knots. You could also forgo the braided mono loop and make the same loop out of hollow core braid which would leave you with a braided loop to loop connection. Lots of ways to do the same thing. The welded loop is the bulkiest and weakest connection of the ones I mentioned.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Glad to see you posting pictures. I did all the same testing a few years back was too lazy to post photos of all the failures and weight associated with the failure.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

el9surf said:


> I cut my welded loops off on the butt end and put a braided mono loop for most of my lines. The hollow core can't damage the braided mono loop like it will the fly line coating. You could also feed the fly line into the hollow core directly as mentioned above however changing lines becomes a process of rigging everything again from scratch. On the plus side there are no knots. You could also forgo the braided mono loop and make the same loop out of hollow core braid which would leave you with a braided loop to loop connection. Lots of ways to do the same thing. The welded loop is the bulkiest and weakest connection of the ones I mentioned.


The last set of pics was with a quick half assed whipped loop in the fly line. It showed no indication what-so-ever of any movement. I may be headed to hollow core spliced to the fly line and then a loop spliced in it. I wonder how hollow core to hollow core loops hold up? I think it will be that or a braided mono loop spliced to the fly line. Either way I’m making my own, ‘cause buyin’ this stuff is too easy.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Loop to loop on hc to hc, or hollow core to braided mono holds up without issue. The fly line will break before either loop shows any damage.


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