# What would you do?



## redgheenoe (Apr 28, 2007)

throw a baby seal in it and call PETA?


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

call cops, get perp description and if in a vehicle get full description of vehicle....


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## TomFL (Oct 2, 2007)

> call cops, get perp description and if in a vehicle get full description of vehicle....


X2 but get video or pics of the guy. 

This worked at the stick marsh one year when we caught a guy shooting an osprey. Video'd him, called 911 and they caught him on the way out. To boot we caught the osprey as evidence as it had a broken wing. I can't stand people wasting or ruining our wildlife and resources.


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

You Guys Know This is a Trick Question !!!


It Is the Old Anti 2 Stroke Argument !!! 

Dave 

2 Strokes are Light and thay HAUL ASS ! ;D


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Dave's right.

This was the context in which I found the question:  

Query: What would you do if you saw someone
standing at the end of the dock at your favorite
boat ramp dumping an old pint container
of used motor oil in the water?

Overall, oil and gas inputs from two-stroke outboard motors
are estimated to be between 0.6 to 2.5 million gallons
per year (average 1.6 million gallons) or between 2,100
and 8,500 tonnes (average 5,300 tonnes) per year for
coastal waters of the United States. 

info source:
< http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10388&page=220 >

The Exxon-Valdez is conservatively estimated to have
spilled over 10.8 million U.S. gallons.



Obviously from an anti-pollution site .
I cut out a lot of excess verbage
but they make a good point.

So we as boaters spill the same amount as the
Exxon-Valdez every 10 years?

Should we be running 2 stroke engines
if this is the long term effect?

I'm not an outboard mechanic.
I don't know enough about current EPA requirements
for small engines. Have 2 stroke engines improved
to burn as clean or cleaner than 4 strokes?
I see lots of ads from the manufacturers but I
have a problem believing info from someone with a vested
interest in maintaining the status quo.

This bugs me because I've run 2 strokes for a long time.
The only reason my last boat had a 4 stroke was because it
came that way when I bought it. 

The only reason I have a 4 stroke now is it was
a high torque motor for low speed use as a get home
motor on my last boat. 
Otherwise I'd still be running 2 stroke.
How much oil am I actually pumping out the exhaust
each time I burn 6 gallons of gas?

Hey Dave, you got kids? Whats the long term effect
on their future? Are the contaminants in the oil getting into
the fish we feed to our families.
If you fish Mosquito Lagoon you know it is.
Its a closed system, the oil stays there.
Is the need for speed more important than our kids health?
I'm an old freakin coot. I don't matter. My kid does.
The question bugs me!
I've seen mornings at the ramp where the oil was so thick
it coated the water and made the ramp dangerous.
I've run small outboards in a bucket to rinse them out
and seen the oil ring it leaves behind.
I didn't think twice about it 'cause that's how I grew up.
We had no other options.
Now with more information available do we keep doing
it the same way just because?

So the question remains, what would you do to the guy on the dock?
You've seen my answer. The freakin question bugs the cr** outa me.
So does my answer. What would you do?


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2008)

What if I run Amsoil at one billion to one?


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

The question really bugs me.

< http://smalloutboards.com/4Stroke.htm >

< http://filebox.vt.edu/users/cnichols/Outboards.html >

< http://www.marineenginedigest.com/specialreports/2versus4stroke.htm >

< http://www.ec.gc.ca/Science/sandemay00/article1_e.html >


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

I am on lake tarpon often and have Never seen any oil scum anywhere  Lots of two strokes everywhere ...

Do we ban sporting events beacuse so many cars ...

Ban  rocket launches ...?

Even electric cars pollute beacuse the the power plants have to make it  ...

I say we should strive to run the cleanest burning oil available ...and be happy with that ...even 4 strokes pollute ...

Volcanoes REALLY Pollute ...LOL

Dave


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

All good points Dave!

I was doing fine this evening till I
ran across this thorny problem.
My gut answer hangs me out to dry.
I haven't found a site that details the amount of oil
that is kicked out with the exhaust.
If you find it post it or pm me.

So, what would you do to the guy on the dock?
Anyone?


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

> I haven't found a site that details the amount of oil
> that is kicked out with the exhaust


I have seen a lot of speculation about it. Until someone sits there and runs a 2 stroke for an extended period in a tank and can get measured data, I will run my 2 stroke like I stole. Never seen an oil trail behind anyone running a 2 stroke and I don't see oil at the dock when I shut down. I would speculate there is more oil in the water from run off on the streets after rainstorms that makes its way into rivers and lakes.


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## flyfshrmn82 (Oct 12, 2007)

How about all the oil that leaks into the water from the famous powerpole. These things seem to leak like mad. If it isn't the seal then it is one of the fitting at the cylinder. If it isn't that, then it is a fitting on the pump that leaks into the boat hull and it is eventually pumped out of the bilge. If it isn't leaking then it is broke in some way. :-/


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2008)

> > I haven't found a site that details the amount of oil
> > that is kicked out with the exhaust
> 
> 
> I have seen a lot of speculation about it. Until someone sits there and runs a 2 stroke for an extended period in a tank and can get measured data, I will run my 2 stroke like I stole. Never seen an oil trail behind anyone running a 2 stroke and I don't see oil at the dock when I shut down. I would speculate there is more oil in the water from run off on the streets after rainstorms that makes its way into rivers and lakes.


And my kids will thank you. Running it like that insures a more complete burn and this a smaller issue. It's the idle time that's not a good thing.


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## backwaterbandits (Dec 15, 2006)

Good question and good replys by all... My new 2 stk. 
is a 100:1 motor...It replaced my old 50:1 motor, but I
run it at 75:1 per my Yamaha dealer and mechanic.
I think Beavis hit the nail on the head re. street runoff
as it probably sends a thousand times more oil in our 
waterways.


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

Are You Advacating Violance against 2 Stroke Users ?

Do We Outlaw wind turbines ? They kill a Lot more Birds than Oil

Hey Oil Comes from the earth ...  Background Radaition comes from the sun ...

Dihydrogen Monixide Is a Constantant threat to children

The "obamanation" Voted against Bring in a second Doctor to save a "viable" Baby  Abortion Kills Millions ! 

Hey lets ban it all ...    Dang old OS No sopebox ...LOL

You are also talking about UN-Burned Oil Much worse than 2 Stroke burned oil ....

4 stroke Blowby ia Actually Worse (been proven) E-Tec is clean

Also You are describing a Delerate Act not creating an Un-intentional By product ...

For the most part burned 2 Stroke oil is broken Down pretty well In nature I will Look closer next time I am at Lake Tarpon ...


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## backwaterbandits (Dec 15, 2006)

FYI re. PowerPole: They just came out with a Green Hyd. 
fluid for PP, trim tab and etc. use...


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## phishphood (Dec 15, 2006)

Grab the container and then knock his a$$ in the water.


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

while you guys are saving the world, add this one to your list... pollution from tire wear and used tires too while you're at it... 

no one seems to talk it about it much, but tire rubber is not biodegradable, can't be recycled into to new tires and is extremely toxic when burned and takes enormous amounts of energy to grind up into playground mulch. In big pieces its really hard to get rid of and luckily tire particles don't pile up along our roadways or something would have to be done about it. :


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## Kemo (Jun 22, 2008)

I am concerned with any and all polution. Yes, running WOT does a better job of burning the oil. But I fish areas often that are Min. or No Wake Zones where that just is not an option. Everytime I launch and start the motor I look at the water around the motor for oil. I never see any. Yes, buy the absolutle cleanest burning oil you can get, AND keep that motor well tuned and don't over-oil the mixture. Doing that will help a lot.

As far as the guy on the dock, how big is he and how old? I'm not much (or very capable) for physical fighting. I don't carry a camera, but I'd sure give his description to the nearest authorities. After I gave the SOB a piece of my mind he would never forget!


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2008)

> ...
> 
> As far as the guy on the dock, how big is he and how old? I'm not much (or very capable) for physical fighting. I don't carry a camera...,!


You make a very good point here and I'm guilty as charged. Since he is toward the water, it would be difficult to get off a shot in any other direction, so I guess I would be guilty of lead pollution. ;D ;D JK of course but you get the picture.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2008)

> while you guys are saving the world, add this one to your list... pollution from tire wear and used tires too while you're at it...
> 
> no one seems to talk it about it much, but tire rubber is not biodegradable, can't be recycled into to new tires and is extremely toxic when burned and takes enormous amounts of energy to grind up into playground mulch. In big pieces its really hard to get rid of and luckily tire particles don't pile up along our roadways or something would have to be done about it. :


Duh, that's why we're here and use boats. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Except those who hang them all around the boat like a tug.


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

ok, to answer the question 

IMHO the scenario you described is a purposeful form of pollution, so I would get in his face about it big time. I don't care how big he is either. Using an outboard for recreational purposes is an indirect form of pollution. Even if the net contamination is the same over some period of time its a different thing than just flagrantly dumping oil into the water. So the guy deserves a little attention. 

That said, there is an irony to the whole thing too. As a society we tolerate all sorts of things in aggregate that are almost hideous on a singular basis. One of my favorites is automobile deaths. The estimates are about 110 people a day are killed in auto accidents in this country. That's a few dozen moms, dads, brothers, sisters, grandparents etc toasted daily. No biggie right? We have to drive don't we. So that's the de facto sacrifice for our favorite form of mobility. But don't go and kill somebody via some careless act or what ever, because that will NOT be tolerated, unless you use an automobile of course.  

So there you have it, wait until the guy gets near a road and run his a$$ over with your car.


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

I Fly a 2 Stroke There is NO available 4 stroke Powerplant to Power my aircraft ... Aeroshell is Re Formulating Penzoil 2 stroke Aircooled oil ... (It should be finished by Now )It will be a lot more enviremently friendly ... I will experiment with it in my outboards ...

Of Course KLOTZ is the best oil made ... Just hard to get ...

That being said anyone running Amsoil 75:1 in thier 50:1 outboards ?

I purchased a 3.5 hatsu from someone on the list and I Will Run 75:1 Amsoil in it and run the living piss out of it as a guinea pig ...I have lots of spare parts for it and The cost of a Piston is worth it to find the Cleanest alternitive available ...

Dave


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2008)

> ok, to answer the question
> 
> IMHO the scenario you described is a purposeful form of pollution, so I would get in his face about it big time. I don't care how big he is either. Using an outboard for recreational purposes is an indirect form of pollution. Even if the net contamination is the same over some period of time its a different thing than just flagrantly dumping oil into the water. So the guy deserves a little attention.
> 
> That said, there is an irony to the whole thing too. As a society we tolerate all sorts of things in aggregate that are almost hideous on a singular basis. One of my favorites is automobile deaths. The estimates are about 110 people a day are killed in auto accidents in this country. That's a few dozen moms, dads, brothers, sisters, grandparents etc toasted daily. No biggie right? We have to drive don't we. So that's the de facto sacrifice for our favorite form of mobility. But don't go and kill somebody via some careless act or what ever, because that will NOT be tolerated, unless you use an automobile of course.


Bingo!


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## MATT (Apr 30, 2007)

How do you know it is dirty oil and not just some dark rum he cought his 16 year old with ??????


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2008)

> How do you know it is dirty oil and not just some dark rum he cought him 16 year old with ??????


Because the jar wasn't touching his lips. :


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Thought about the question last night
and this morning. Really bugged me and
didn't know why. Ended up at 4:30 in the am
hunting info on the web.

Thanks for the replies guys.
While you were kicking the dog snarf outa the question,
I was finding answers. Kept checking in to see where you went.

Found a bunch of info.

First:

The question as it is written is a form
of social engineering that comes under the 
heading of behavioral science. Dave, you're
right, it's a trick question. Specifically
written to draw a predetermined answer.
Attorneys and advertising firms excell
in this technique. Attorneys always ask a
question in a manner to obtain a clear cut
yes or no. Advertisers raise a question that will
lead you into their way of thinking.

example: a few years ago there was an ad for seat belts.
Mom and kid in car pull up to light.
Mom checks the intersection and sees a speeding vehicle.
Mom says "Oops, we're going to be in an accident."
Mom reaches over and buckles up kid in car seat.
Mom puts on own seat belt.
Light changes, Mom pulls out, crunch.
Announcer says "If you knew you were going to crash
You'd put on your seatbelts too, wouldn't you?."

Premise is unlikely but the concept is visceral.
It allows no other answer. Yes I'd wear a seatbelt.
Very effective.

Now lets go extreme:

If a rooster lays an egg on an absolutely flat
surface, and the wind is blowing 40 mph to the east.
Which way will the egg roll?

Again premise is unlikely,
obvious but wrong answer is logical, East.
But roosters don't lay eggs.

What are the chances of finding someone
stupid enough to dump oil off the dock
into the water? Unlikely premise.
Response though is black and white.
Right or wrong. It goes to the gut
and so it accomplishes it's purpose.
The comedian Gallegher would say
"Makes you look at it with new eyes."
That was the intent.

Second: How much crud is dumped out the exhaust.
I read all this and a lot more

http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/article/the-outboard-expert-two-strokes-alive-and-well-8212-for-now

http://www.mercurymarine.com/serviceandwarranty/outboardfaqs/carb.php

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/marine/facts.pdf

http://www.boatcarbonfootprint.com/emissions/regulations.htm

http://www.dnr.state.ak.us/parks/asp/krsmamotorbtregsfaq.pdf

http://www.ec.gc.ca/Science/sandemay00/article1_e.html

http://www.kimointernational.org/Default.aspx?tabid=68

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/air/docs/boat_motor.pdf

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/air/publications/sbeap/LowPollMarineEngines-Factsheet.pdf

http://smalloutboards.com/4Stroke.htm

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/cnichols/Outboards.html

http://www.marineenginedigest.com/specialreports/2versus4stroke.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=ECmhuneTP5oC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=percentage+of+unburned+oil+in+outboard+exhaust&source=web&ots=VUNMkeuYWo&sig=RMHq0RoK_IuMVotBRCKlnpR417A&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPA26,M1

I now know a lot more about 2 stroke emissions than I did last night.

Studies indicate anywhere from 8% to 40% of a 2 strokes
fuel mix is dumped straight out the exhaust. Depends on rpm
and load. So based on that info the math is easy.
We aren't gonna like the answer.  Burn 5 gallons of oil-fuel mix
your best hope is a low amount of a little less than a half gallon
of gas and oil goes unburned out the back into our water, and
the high end is 2 gallons. It's been measured and checked.
More than once. I didn't know this until I finished reading
all these publications. Go through the publications yourself.

EPA is killing off the old tech 2 stroke where you mix
your own. What's left is Direct Fuel Injection.
You don't mix your own. Very little oil or gas
leave through the exhaust. The EPA is not going to
take your engines away. Time and saltwater are doing it
for them. 

The total amount of pollution dumped by our 2 stroke outboards
is a tiny fraction of the total load being allowed to contaminate
our waters. Big business and other types of transportation account
for most of it.

So all of your comments apply. And now I am a lot more
informed, which I imagine was the point of the
anti-pollution website. Rather effective question, hmmm?
It didn't matter what your answer was. The fact that you made a
decision based on right or wrong forces you to
see the problem in a different way. New eyes.


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

I'll have to read the links myself, but on the surface I have a hard time believing a rooster could burn 40% of an egg while polluting the table with crude oil without a 2 stroke. 

Seriously though, without digging in those numbers seem awfully suspicious. If 40% of the gas is going out the exhaust, where is the HP coming from? OK, the obvious answer is 60% of the fuel being burned, but really that's really hard to swallow when you consider 2 stroke motors are really powerful considering their displacement.

Good thread and read tho.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Quit making me laugh, can't you see I'm trying to sleep?


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## Kemo (Jun 22, 2008)

Like Deerfly, I too am suspicious of those figures except for a worn out motor. I don't understand how Direct Injection could do that much better, if it injects the same ratio of oil and gas, since the rest of the process is not really that different from using your own mix (considering you are accurate in your mixing).


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

> > How do you know it is dirty oil and not just some dark rum he cought him 16 year old with ??????
> 
> 
> Because the jar wasn't touching his lips. :


and he would be getting a major azz kikin by more than one of us!


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

Tires too? Now when I see a person of meger income with a run down car dripping oil and wheels out of alignment I'm gonna rip them a new one. I better not see them cornering too fast or braking excessively, oh crap, brake dust! When will it stop? It's a good thing that humans were put on this earth to filter out all these pollutants.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2008)

> Tires too? Now when I see a person of meger income with a run down car dripping oil and wheels out of alignment I'm gonna rip them a new one. I better not see them cornering too fast or braking excessively, oh crap, brake dust! When will it stop? It's a good thing that humans were put on this earth to filter out all these pollutants.



Betcha they flick cigarette butts out the window and drive one handed too.


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

> > Tires too? Now when I see a person of meger income with a run down car dripping oil and wheels out of alignment I'm gonna rip them a new one. I better not see them cornering too fast or braking excessively, oh crap, brake dust! When will it stop? It's a good thing that humans were put on this earth to filter out all these pollutants.
> 
> 
> 
> Betcha they flick cigarette butts out the window and drive one handed too.


...and if they even have A/C in their cars the refrigerant is probably leaking therefore opening up the ozone.  

We're all freakin' doomed that's all there is to it, doomed I tell ya. Better procreate, drink, hunt, fish and be merry before its too late.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2008)

> > > Tires too? Now when I see a person of meger income with a run down car dripping oil and wheels out of alignment I'm gonna rip them a new one. I better not see them cornering too fast or braking excessively, oh crap, brake dust! When will it stop? It's a good thing that humans were put on this earth to filter out all these pollutants.
> >
> >
> >
> ...


I just prepared for the worst.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2008)

> > > Tires too? Now when I see a person of meger income with a run down car dripping oil and wheels out of alignment I'm gonna rip them a new one. I better not see them cornering too fast or braking excessively, oh crap, brake dust! When will it stop? It's a good thing that humans were put on this earth to filter out all these pollutants.
> >
> >
> >
> ...


OK, Mr Dooms Day.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

A retired mechanic pointed out a few things
to me yesterday. We were talking about 2 stroke
engines. What he pointed out was rather obvious,
except to me until then.

What color is the smoke from an oil fire?
Black, thats the color of burnt oil.
Same color as the crud on a 2 stroke spark plug.

If you spill a little oil onto the exhaust
manifold when you change the oil in your cars engine,
when the engine gets hot, what color is the smoke?
Blue, thats the color of unburnt oil that has been
vaporized by the heat of the engine.
The same color as the smoke from a 2 strokes exhaust.

When idling at the dock theres a large cloud of blue smoke.
Idling is very ineffecient with a 2 stroke.
That's why an idling 2 stroke runs rough.
It allows a lot of unburnt fuel to escape out the exhaust 
port as the fresh fuel/air charge pumps in.
The boat is not moving so the hot exhaust gases rise
to the surface and collect around the motor.
There's your 40% loss that was published.

High rpm's are the most effecient with the fuel burn
of a 2 stroke. The least amount of unburnt fuel/oil
is allowed out the exhaust.

When a hot vapor comes in contact with a cool surface
what takes place? Condensation. Think of a glass of ice water.
The droplets that form on the outside of the glass
are condensed water vapor.

At high speed the exhaust gases coming out the prop hub
are blasted into very small bubbles,because of the turbulence
of the propwash. The inside surface of these bubbles are much
cooler than the exhaust gases trapped inside. Condensation
takes place. The unburnt gas and oil condensates are mixed
into the water so no blue smoke. That must be the 8% loss.

The middle of the power band where most of us run
dumps about 20% of our fuel oil mix straight out the 
exhaust. That's 1 gallon out of 5.

Thats where the unburnt portion of a 2 strokes fuel/oil mix
go. The unspoken part of the outboard motor industry.
So the blue smoke we're breathing in so deeply and
enjoying at the ramp is raw gasoline and oil. Mmmmmm good.

So the question is...


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## costefishnt (Dec 11, 2006)

> > > I haven't found a site that details the amount of oil
> > > that is kicked out with the exhaust
> >
> >
> ...


you mean the motors idle? hmmph. learn something new everyday.


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

> There's your 40% loss that was published.
> 
> High rpm's are the most effecient with the fuel burn
> of a 2 stroke. The least amount of unburnt fuel/oil
> ...


ok I'll go with the 40% efficiency loss at idle, but we're talking idle, which is next to no fuel volume, especially on the 25hp and less most of us here run around with. Obviously the larger the motor there's more idle fuel volume but its still negligible relatively speaking. 

If the efficiency goes up as the RPM's go up or on the order of 92% at WFO then that's certainly acceptable to me. With my 25hp that's roughly 10-12oz of fuel/oil left in my wake for every 10 miles I travel or about an ounce a mile or .00227 ounces per foot. I think I'll order a Greenpeace sticker to place under my SkiffShop decal...  :

The 20% efficiency doesn't translate to real world experience for me either. That "cruise" range is where I get the best mileage/range per gallon. If I'm getting that figure right, then its supposed to mean I'm getting farther on less fuel, but I'm not burning 20% of it and dumping it in the water instead? I'm clearly missing something there.

At the end of the day, running any kind of combustion engine is dirty business and results in harmful exhaust to varying degrees depending on the type of fuel being used. For now I'll let you 4-stroke converts carry the eco flag though.


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

I love the smell of 2-smoke in the morning, you know that gasoline smell...   

Rotting vegetation, animal feces, and dead animals turn into gases and oils. Leaking fluids from cars end up in our waterways. Have you ever fished a spillway after the rain? You don't have to lube your reels afterwards. Volcanos, wild fires, world wide pollution. What can you do about it. 2 strokes are such a miniscule part of the problem.

Look at google earth and see the expanse of the water compared to your boat. Nature can deal with the small amount that we pollute. I don't see fish rolling up dead behind my boat. If it bothers you than all you can do is act local and not use a 2 stroke motor. 

I wish that I could afford the latest 4 stroke technology and not cause as much pollution, but I've worked too dang hard most of my life not to enjoy some relaxation once and a while. 

I would bet that most of the unburned oil ends up clinging to peoples boats and manmade structure anyway. It might even help slow down the corrosive effects of the saltwater and help save the rain forests.

Anyway, if the EPA has its way we will all be running 4 strokes soon, except for a few "Twostrokeilistas" hiding in seclusion hammering out replacement parts from old Chevys.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

At mid throttle we're burning 80% of our fuel.
But our energy loss due to friction and prop slippage
has dropped. We're spending less energy to push
through/over the water and converting
less energy into spray. All boat/motor combinations
have a sweet spot. An rpm where it's the most comfortable
and effecient to run. Most of my boats liked 3900-4200 rpm.
That seemed to produce the least amount of hang time
off waves and my best fuel mileage on my flo-scan.

Curtis doesn't worry about hang time 'cause the
only part of his 'noe in the water is the prop 'n skeg.

un-shore
Whoa, EPA specifically said they don't care about existing outboards.
Time and use will eliminate the problem for them.
They understand how small an amount of the total problem 2 strokes are.
I'm not running for public office. I just got kicked in the nards by
something I never thought about before. Isn't that what forums are
about. Talking about something new? I just learned a whole lot about
something that never interfered with my thought processes before.
I shared that surprise in the forum. I'm not telling anyone what to
do. I'm an American, free country, do as you feel is right.
But that's what kicked me in the nards. What's right and wrong?
I went through a lot of trouble to teach my kid the difference
between right and wrong. I try to live what I teach.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2008)

Statistics can be skewed any way we want it.

Deerfly hit it when asked about the 20% loss. Or, should he have gone 20% farther? :-/

I know I get about 10 mpg out of my 25 2 smoke Merc which is about the same as the new 40 Yami EFI 4 stroke. Since the boat speeds will be about the same, what am I missing here?

Aw, the heck with it. I'll just add Dawn to my fuel.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Basic rule of thumb: 
Each 10 hp consumes 1 gallon per hour at full throttle.

Is that 25 on the same boat as the 40.
If so what was that your miles per gallon with each motor
at the same speed? That should be close to the same.
The real difference would be the time it took to get there.
I'd bet the 40 got there faster.
Load, prop, rpm, type of motor all affect fuel consumption.

This post was never intended to be a diatribe against 2 strokes.
Just me learning something new.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2008)

> Basic rule of thumb:
> Each 10 hp consumes 1 gallon per hour at full throttle.
> 
> Is that 25 on the same boat as the 40.
> ...



Uh, if it's about the same speed, then they would get there about the same time. 

Yes the 40 is probably pushing a bigger boat but we are talking about fuel burn (or lack thereof), not the properties of the outboard. I was actually baiting with the 40 EFI comparison to the 2 smoke 25 to ultimately point out that IMHO there is probably little difference in the pollution for both carbed as a result of the fuel burn. The issue would be the oil of the 2 smoke and I think we are talking about petroleum based oils. I'm pretty sure synthetics burn cleaner and since I'm of a similar school to Curtis, I don't see how the stuff has much of a chance to linger. I'm not saying that there is no difference, just IMHO there is "little" difference when run with synthetics at the higher RPM's. Another argument to do away with manatee zones.  

Now if you want to go back 30 years to the petroleum based oils run at 25:1 and better, then we have a valid argument.


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

> This post was never intended to be a diatribe against 2 strokes.


was never looking at that way myself. This topic has mostly piqued my interest from an academic angle coupled with personal experience accumulated after a "few" years on the water in all types of boats, OB, IB, IB/OB, diesel, etc. 

Until recently(since the 4 strokes became a reasonably viable option) I've never really ever considered the pollution aspects of it. 100% of the time the main consideration was getting the most HP for a given dry weight of the engine, every thing else was more or less secondary. 

Even now, the 4 strokes appeal to me more from a mileage perspective, followed by the quietness factor. They don't, but if they polluted more than a 2 stroke I still wouldn't care, the fuel consumption and quietness is the attraction, assuming I can live with the hp/wt thingy. 

So you're quest for knowledge got me to think a little differently about the exhaust consequences with a 2 stroke engine, even though I can't quite reconcile the efficiency numbers myself. Even if I accept the numbers at face value, I agree with unshore in the sense that what we're talking about here is essentially insignificant in the grand scheme of global pollution sources. Of course that won't prevent the EPA from exerting their will on outboard compliance at some point in the near future too. 

For now I can live with 2 stroke performance and exhaust consequences given the relatively light engine weights. As the 4's get lighter in gross weight they become more compelling. That said if I were to purchase a brand new motor today it would most likely be a 4 stroke.


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

Brett, I know where you are coming from, I was speaking from personal demons because I think about this from time to time. I was just listing my reasoning. 

Back to the original question, there is a big difference between someone intentionally polluting a body of water with a specific concentration of oil compared to some one using an approved device to enjoy their liesure time. Some of the money spent on registrations, licenses and some boating products go towards managing a better environment. The mere act of people getting out on the water and enjoying the environment leads to improved technology. So there is a big difference and not worth worrying about.


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

> Statistics can be skewed any way we want it.
> 
> Deerfly hit it when asked about the 20% loss.  Or, should he have gone 20% farther? :-/
> 
> ...


The wonderful smell of 2 stroke! By the way, will let you know if you are getting carbon monoxide poisoning.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Thanks for the comments gents.
Each question or dig just sent me off
into the google-sphere to try and find out
the why, and the how. In the past 3 days
I have read through more than 100 2 stroke
related web sites trying to satisfy my curiosity
about the points you all brought up.
Over a dozen dealing with pollution output.
Curtis' solution of haulin' a$$ being the easiest.
Another half dozen regarding props
and slippage. Dave, being a pilot would
have better input regarding prop efficeincy.
A few on behavioral science (the freakin question).
A couple that dealt with hydraulic friction:
condensed version-the faster you go the harder water gets.
And an image search for graphs that
correlate how all these fit together.
simple picture: the graph lines all get near
each other between 3500-4500 rpm with any outboard motor.
After this point what goes up on one goes down on another.
They start cancelling out.

Thanks again for the push.
I wouldn't have learned as much otherwise.
The best info is in the links left in this post if
you're interested. I'm gonna
go play in the garage and figure out
hatch openings. How to place them
without weakening bulkheads.

Oh, and I'm not losing any more sleep.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

I have noticed a direct correlation between the number of skeeters in mingo and the lack of 2 smokers...


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

> I have noticed a direct correlation between the number of skeeters in mingo and the lack of 2 smokers...


 Yes,yes it is making sense..[smiley=1-mmm.gif]


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## deerfly (Mar 10, 2007)

> > I have noticed a direct correlation between the number of skeeters in mingo and the lack of 2 smokers...
> 
> 
> Yes,yes it is making sense..[smiley=1-mmm.gif]


Anyone know or wonder if the mosquito truck that fog's the campground and facilities is a bio-friendly treatment or  not?  :-? 

I think I know the answer but I'd be curious to know for sure.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

Monroe County uses Pyrethrum to control adult mosquitoes with our spray trucks. Pyrethrum is a botanical insecticide produced primarily from the flowers of Tanacetum cinerariaefolium, which is a species of the chrysanthemum plant family. It is found mainly in tiny oil-containing glands on the surface of the seed case in the tightly packed flower head and is the plant’s own insecticide that has evolved to keep insects away. Pyrethrum is made up of six complex chemical esters known as pyrethrins that work in combination to repel and kill insects.


as copied from county website

no, I didn't know what it was, I do now

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/pyrethrins-ziram/pyrethrins-ext.html


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## Un-shore (Sep 27, 2007)

If it kills a form of life... can it be good or bad for the environment even if it is from nature? 

What would you do if you saw a person pouring a can of that stuff on your child? 

As somebody mentioned here before, Oil is from the earth. So, is petroleum derived 2 stroke oil better for the eco than synthetic?

Also, what is DEET anyway, I've practicly bathed in that stuff.

What do mosquitos eat when humans are not where they are at?


This is getting deep.

This is getting bigger than "pet peeves" and "tag line"


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## newbie_dave (May 31, 2007)

I'm staying with my 2-stoke merc, PERIOD!!


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## Kemo (Jun 22, 2008)

Ya know, the man posted a question. We have read it, made our responses, teased him and each other, and voiced our opinions. I think we all learned something (which is what this was all about), but no matter where you stand, if you're overboard and you can't reach the top of your gunnel (gunwale), you're doomed. Let's move on to whether or not ANY boat or ANY motor should be allowed in our waters. Maybe all waterways where ANY fish live should should be NMZ's. How far away are we from totally electric boats? I don't know, but the 2-stroke is still the best motor. OK, one more plug, but only if you keep it tuned right and don't take it out more than once every 100 years. Bag this. [smiley=stfu2.gif]


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## CaptSnook (May 11, 2008)

When these counties spray from planes and choppers, don' they mix the insecticide with diesel fuel to carry it down? Not sure just what I heard.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

You had to get my curiosity up again didn't you?
Here I was looking at skiffs for sale and up pops
another interesting question. Here you go Captain.

< http://fmel.ifas.ufl.edu/whitep/ch6.htm >

Formulations and Dosages: Baytex Liquid Concentrate (9.67 lb. AI/gal.) is applied as ULV from the ground with a maximum dosage rate of 14.4 fl. oz. (=0.03 lb./ac.). Aerial applications may either be ULV at a rate ranging from 0.66-1.3 fl. oz. (0.05-0.10 lb. AI/ac., or thermal at a rate of 0.4 fl. oz. (0.03 lb. AI/ac. mixed with 0.2-0.8 quarts of oil. Fenthion's biggest disadvantage is its relatively high cost in comparison to malathion or Dibrom®, and it also is a relatively slow-acting insecticide


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