# Fiberglass



## 17376 (May 5, 2017)

As @Chris Morejohn just pointed out on some failures of a Conchfish being hit at 100 mph.. so here are more observations from closer pictures etc.

Though I feel CM might think I came off as an ass in my question in his post, I was asking a legitimate question. he posted the pictures of the CF and my discussion here is for people to learn from.












































1. Shows a single layer of glass that went across the cap from the transom sheared off. And also some separation.
2. Shows the transom glass going over the core.
3. Shows engine well that is glassed and has seperated.
4. More separation of tape.
5. Shows the bulkhead in which it separated from the force
6. Crack in the keel, 8 layers of 1208 for extra protection for jimmy running aground. Also near the keel, a perfectly straight crack through 4 layers.
7. A single layer of 1208 is still fully attached to the core, however the 1708 tape has seperated due to poor bonding against the 1208.


----------



## 17376 (May 5, 2017)




----------



## 17376 (May 5, 2017)

Also a lot of manufacturers only use silicone and screws to mount the cap to hulls.

@Boatbrains has a lot of knowledge and also recommended before this happened to go even “stronger” by glassing all of the cap inside to the hull.


----------



## DBStoots (Jul 9, 2011)

Interesting. Thanks for posting.


----------



## Guest (Feb 20, 2020)

@Travis Smith, no lightweight skiff would have survived that impact... PERIOD! The forces and objects the boat bounced off of were just too strong and much harder materials than glass and resin! You did a fine job on the build and I think she faired well giving the circumstances!


----------



## Water Bound (Dec 12, 2018)

Clearly Travis you built an amazing boat! I think all the fumes from building boats has caused CM to lose his filter. My 93 yr old Grandmother is the same way, I mean I love her to death, but sometimes I wonder if she knows how what she saying is coming off


----------



## Copahee Hound (Dec 21, 2017)

Like others have said. It looks like you did a good job, but I’ve never seen a (metal) vehicle in a high speed police chase cruise away after an impact with another vehicle... let alone fibers and glue. Don’t take it personally, but maybe as positive criticism to move forward. I doubt any other Conchfish will make headline news like BC16’s


----------



## jlindsley (Nov 24, 2015)

By no means am I a boat builder but I will say I was talking to a close friend not long after the accident (actually member on this forum as well with a lot of knowledge in the industry) and the first thing he specifically mentioned was Cm’s point #1 and many of the others. 
Sorry your feelings were hurt by the guy who literally designed the boat you are building 
At the end of the day it is spilt milk and the boat would’ve been totaled anyway.


----------



## 17376 (May 5, 2017)

By no means are my feelings hurt. This is a learning experience for us all.

However, I will say, the original plans for the skiff and it has been said to “glue” the cap. No mention of glassing it in. However recent drawings show there being glass..


But you HB gurus, I’d rather get stress cracks on a 10k skiff that does the same than a 50k HB. And yes, I have seen them with stress cracks. Not to mention other things from them.


----------



## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

I'm no boat builder, and I'm generally regarded as a dumbass. But I'll go out on a limb and say that Daytona style road crashes are outside the design/engineering parameters for a skiff. I'd say don't sweat it.


----------



## jlindsley (Nov 24, 2015)

Travis Smith said:


> But you HB gurus, I’d rather get stress cracks on a 10k skiff that does the same than a 50k HB. And yes, I have seen them with stress cracks. Not to mention other things from them.


Couldn’t agree more but wouldn’t say I am a hells bay guru. I am just wearing a free hells bay buff in my avatar. I was actually fishing on my 1978 11’ Boston whaler my dad and I restored when I was a kid. I fished it until 4 years ago when I bought my salt marsh as an 11’ skiff was a little tight for a family of 4.


----------



## Finsleft258 (Oct 7, 2018)

I guess I'll chime in--I'm the one Mr. Lindsley referenced. Since this thread was started as a reference for others building and repairing their skiffs, I'll offer constructive criticism under the assumption this is NOT going to turn into a shitshow of a giant, dick-slinging contest. I'm also a harsh HB critic (actually, I'm pretty harsh about most boats)--not sure where that puts me. To be clear, I'm not a fanboy for anyone. 

I will reference the items based on the numbers on the photos Travis provided above. I will also ask some questions--if answers are provided for said questions, I can elaborate. Before I begin, I will acknowledge the sentiment that any other vessel involved in the accident would have faced a similar fate. This situation sucks all around. I cannot speak to Chris Morejohn's concerns, but mine were based not on the fact the hull failed, rather the types of failures exposed. I hope everyone can understand and appreciate the difference. CM has already addressed the bonding putty issues so I will not elaborate on those further. I will focus on cosmetic failures not related to the crash and the lamination failures that stuck out to me. 

In nearly every photo where you can zoom in on undamaged coating which I'm assuming to be gel based on the thickness(especially evident on photo 6 with green straps) there are quite a few craters and blisters. These are formed from the outgasing of either; a) the coating itself, or b) the laminate underneath with a rapidly curing topcoat applied too early. If it's the latter, it's just a timing issue and is easy to correct, but based on the build thread for this boat, I do not think that it is the case. If it's item 'a' then I would want to know what thinners and additives were used with the gel? What thickness was it applied to each coat? Was the temperature rising or falling? These can all cause that problem and be addressed by different measures. 

On photos 4, 5, and the previously mentioned 6, the delamination is incredibly clean. What I mean by that is the fabrics separated in their entirety without pulling or damaging the next layup. For me, this is the major structural issue I see in this build. It is caused by either; a) not laying up the layers soon enough, or b) not prepping between the layers. Here, the resin system used comes into play as it affects the timelines for allowable subsequent layups. It's acceptable to have days or weeks even pass between laying another layer, but it must be ground or sanded heavily to promote proper adhesion. While this project did use 08 fabrics which do have CSM, they need to be laid up in fairly rapid succession to get a good bond and close the voids in the CSM-to-directional glass layup. If that time table is not met, then you will still require regular CSM. The reason for this is the CSM stitched to the directional fabric cannot free "float" during lamination--it's held in place by the stitching and needs the pliability of the layers on both sides of it (i.e. wet layers). That is why molded boats still get at least a layer of veil or 3/4 oz. CSM before other fabrics come into play. 

Please let me know if further explanation is needed.


----------



## 17376 (May 5, 2017)

Finsleft258 said:


> I guess I'll chime in--I'm the one Mr. Lindsley referenced. Since this thread was started as a reference for others building and repairing their skiffs, I'll offer constructive criticism under the assumption this is NOT going to turn into a shitshow of a giant, dick-slinging contest. I'm also a harsh HB critic (actually, I'm pretty harsh about most boats)--not sure where that puts me. To be clear, I'm not a fanboy for anyone.
> 
> I will reference the items based on the numbers on the photos Travis provided above. I will also ask some questions--if answers are provided for said questions, I can elaborate. Before I begin, I will acknowledge the sentiment that any other vessel involved in the accident would have faced a similar fate. This situation sucks all around. I cannot speak to Chris Morejohn's concerns, but mine were based not on the fact the hull failed, rather the types of failures exposed. I hope everyone can understand and appreciate the difference. CM has already addressed the bonding putty issues so I will not elaborate on those further. I will focus on cosmetic failures not related to the crash and the lamination failures that stuck out to me.
> 
> ...


I quoted your comment and placed comments within it.


*Thank you for your comments. Feel free to comment. Or PM me for stuff that you may not want to put out on here. *

Iam a epoxy/ wooden skiff guy. But I got an allergy to epoxy.


----------



## Finsleft258 (Oct 7, 2018)

Travis Smith said:


> I quoted your comment and placed comments within it.
> 
> 
> *Thank you for your comments. Feel free to comment. Or PM me for stuff that you may not want to put out on here. *
> ...


Amine and BPA (bisphenol A) exposures are no joke. There's a dude asking about tying materials on another thread. Remember the baby bottle deal from 10 years ago? It was all due to BPA leaching. Just because the resin doesn't smell, doesn't make it less harmful. A half-face respirator also isn't going to cut it. You can develop sensitivities through exposures to your mucosa. A full-face respirator is needed. You can also get the reactions from undercured and still curing products that you are sanding--which will be all of them. Epoxies are generally engineered with a mix ratio that still allows full hardening without the ratio being spot on. What that means is there will be free portions of one the components that are not catalyzed. 

Vinylesters and polyesters will continue to cure until all of the MEKP and styrene crosslinks. This can go on for months, though it is improving with low VOC resins. Other stuff below in red. 

"In nearly every photo where you can zoom in on undamaged coating which I'm assuming to be gel based on the thickness(especially evident on photo 6 with green straps) there are quite a few craters and blisters. These are formed from the outgasing of either; a) the coating itself, or b) the laminate underneath with a rapidly curing topcoat applied too early. *So I’m not sure if we will be referring to same place or not but the boat was primed and painted probably within 24 hours of one another. This also was within 48 hours of the wreck. @Chris Beutel can chime in bc he assisted with it. That's good to know. It's much easier to track problems in paint than in gelcoat. Which products? I'm guessing either the TDS (technical data sheets---read them) wasn't followed or there was some outside contaminant. If Perfection, like below, it's very susceptible to fisheyes and craters on a less than absolutely perfect surface. A comparable product is Pettit Easy-poxy 2. For a bit more money, Nason Fulthane is approaching the levels of hardness and gloss retention that you would find from Imron or Awlgrip for about half the price.  If it's the latter, it's just a timing issue and is easy to correct, but based on the build thread* for this boat, I do not think that it is the case. If it's item 'a' then I would want to know what thinners and additives were used with the gel? *Inside was gelcoated inside hatch areas. Not sure on thickness as o didn’t use a gauge.*What thickness was it applied to each coat? *Interlux perfection was used. Which was refunded due to the fact we had an issue with it drying, but It was the top side that didn’t want to dry.*Was the temperature rising or falling? *Yes sir temp was up and down. While a stable temperature is always the best, you can apply on an increasing temperature. You never want to apply on a falling temp for two reasons; a) the dew point is dropping and you could end up with moisture on the surface, and b) the vapor pressure is increasing and will hold the evaporatives outgassing from the coating directly over the coating surface and thus not allowing it to cure. Don't paint at night. Ever. *These can all cause that problem and be addressed by different measures.

On photos 4, 5, and the previously mentioned 6, the delamination is incredibly clean. What I mean by that is the fabrics separated in their entirety without pulling or damaging the next layup. For me, this is the major structural issue I see in this build. It is caused by either; a) not laying up the layers soon enough, or b) not prepping between the layers. *It was a first for me using an ester resin. How I prepped was if it wasn’t wet on wet. I sanded with 40 or 80, whatever I had on hand, until I see fibers. **Sounds good. I typically am a bit more aggressive than that--60 minimum for cosmetic and 36 for structural. There shouldn't be anything glossy in the area AFTER you wipe it down with a sovent.** Dust blew out and wiped down with acetone. Acetone has a drying effect on components. It also reacts with MEKP and displaces styrene. You're removing the two monomers you need for crosslinking. Since the resin will have unbonded components in its cured state, it is possible to get a reasonable chemical bond even 7 days later. Sand, blow, layup. Wipe with a moist towel if you must and let it dry. If the surface is contaminated and it must be wiped with a solvent, use styrene. On parts/repairs that are older, I use acetone. *


----------



## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

I only ride 'em, I don't know what makes 'em work.


----------



## Guest (Feb 20, 2020)

Without doing any Dick slinging
No FRP boat would have survived as has been said by most of us already. The resin used was a GP “not boatyard nor laminating” resin which while not top shelf it wasn’t bottom shelf either. Enough time had lapsed between hull lay up and bulkhead & cap bonding/glassing that I doubt an acetone wipe had any effect on the monomers at play. I could be wrong though... @Finsleft258 you are dead on about the paint and following the tds to the letter! All said, Travis is a hobby/amateur builder that only knows what he has learned by reading in books/www and what his plans tell him to do and by doing. So again I say to all... let any skiff get hit at over 100mph, come off the trailer, slide down the asphalt and let’s see how it fairs!


----------



## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

This made me think. We should drop manufactures skiffs off a crane and see how the hold up as a new segment of the Skiff Challenge! The boat Travis built I'm sure would hold its own.


----------



## Charles Hadley (Jan 20, 2019)

I thought opening this thread would be educational, it was ,I learned there needs to be a chris morjon /conchfish forum so I know what thread to not fucking open. Anytide can you please help,you did a great job travis any moreon that says other should run an SUV into any boat and see what happens. Really WTF people!


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2020)

@Charles Hadley


----------



## Charles Hadley (Jan 20, 2019)

Hahahaha 


Boatbrains said:


> View attachment 119552
> 
> @Charles Hadley


----------



## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

What is going to happen to this hull?


----------



## 17376 (May 5, 2017)

Sell it to you?


----------



## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Travis Smith said:


> Sell it to you?


How much?


----------



## Charles Hadley (Jan 20, 2019)

I don't know about boat industry but painting cars and Harley's for 30 years I can assure you this,Nason products are junk,we only used that crap for fleet work on vehicles that got treated like crap.would never put it on ANYTHING I would plan on keeping or on a customer's build that was expected to be a quality job.i have sprayed over 400 gallons of over 12 year contract with a local hospital, I assure you you don't want it on your" bragging spot" boat build.


----------



## Finsleft258 (Oct 7, 2018)

Charles Hadley said:


> I don't know about boat industry but painting cars and Harley's for 30 years I can assure you this,Nason products are junk,we only used that crap for fleet work on vehicles that got treated like crap.would never put it on ANYTHING I would plan on keeping or on a customer's build that was expected to be a quality job.i have sprayed over 400 gallons of over 12 year contract with a local hospital, I assure you you don't want it on your" bragging spot" boat build.


Charles, I agree that Nason products are not the best. They are meant for fleet applications as you said. The particular product I mentioned is still more durable than Perfection. I guess being a car and Harley guy, you know a lot more about marine coatings than me... You know the guy that tests them daily.


----------



## Charles Hadley (Jan 20, 2019)

Finsleft258 said:


> Charles, I agree that Nason products are not the best. They are meant for fleet applications as you said. The particular product I mentioned is still more durable than Perfection. I guess being a car and Harley guy, you know a lot more about marine coatings than me... You know the guy that tests them daily.


As I said in the auto paint industry, which is where nason derived from it is considered junk ,but I guess any body that can read a tech manual and not make a living with it is always right .I have been making a living doing this since you were 2,go back to the classroom.


----------



## Charles Hadley (Jan 20, 2019)

And thank you for your service as a tester,I will let this resume as a non educational fiberglass thread


----------



## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

As noted - no small lightweight hull (pretty much the definition of a microskiff...) would have survived that crash... As a personal note I can also tell you that in my previous career I was on the scene of many bad deaths (from every means possible - gunshot, knife, razor, fire, explosion... and lastly car crashes...).... Nothing, repeat nothing, can tear up a human body the way the physical forces involved in car crashes can... I doubt that small skiffs are much different when it comes to what happens in a severe impact situation...

Now that I have everyone's attention... It seems to me that every crashed boat is in fact an opportunity to see exactly what held up -and what didn't... 

All of us want our builds or repairs (or that nice new shiny toy we just spent lot of money to buy...) to hold up as long as possible. So there's some reason for post-mortems even if some here appear offended by them... 

Not much different than what scientists went through years ago when the first rockets failed - every way it could happen (hopefully -but there will always be stuff you never anticipated that will fail a bit sooner than you expected...). They went over the remains of every rocket (when they even had remains) to see what worked - and what didn't.... You watch the tremendous successes and everyone forgets what didn't work... and the hard work and trials that had to be done before they succeeded...

Yes, I want every boatbuilder looking at bad accidents to see what parts held up and what didn't... Maybe, just maybe there's a better way to do things - without adding much extra weight at all... My hat's off to anyone that builds a good lightweight skiff - and hopefully in its life span it will never receive the kind of impact that simply destroys whatever is in the way...


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2020)

lemaymiami said:


> As noted - no small lightweight hull (pretty much the definition of a microskiff...) would have survived that crash... As a personal note I can also tell you that in my previous career I was on the scene of many bad deaths (from every means possible - gunshot, knife, razor, fire, explosion... and lastly car crashes...).... Nothing, repeat nothing, can tear up a human body the way the physical forces involved in car crashes can... I doubt that small skiffs are much different when it comes to what happens in a severe impact situation...
> 
> Now that I have everyone's attention... It seems to me that every crashed boat is in fact an opportunity to see exactly what held up -and what didn't...
> 
> ...


Well said and unbiased!


----------

