# Name that skiff



## MAV181 (Aug 26, 2010)

Chris Morejohn had some constructive criticism for this builder on his blog.

" My guess is it's easier for the crew to make it look neat and this builder does not understand light weight building standards." " Old school just get it out the door building here." [sic] Chris Morejohn

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"These skiffs will not come apart but they are not what they are being billed out as. They are just average built skiffs. It's not fair to the molds they are being built from. All it takes is know how. Why don't they know how?" [sic] Chris Morejohn


Maybe they will ask for his input. I'm sure he will lend them a hand. Looks like he may have already, in a round about way. Any idea who this builder is?


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I know, but I'm not starting WWIII


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## MAV181 (Aug 26, 2010)

The fact that he said it won't come apart eliminated one popular builder.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

So what's your motivation in posting this?


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Just check the bragging section for pictures and you will see.


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## MAV181 (Aug 26, 2010)

Well.. this is a skiff forum. Chris morejohn posted some info about a skiff on his blog. He pointed out some issues with the build. People come to forums to gain knowledge and make better purchase decisions. It would be good to know who may no be up to snuff in this industry so to speak. Didn't think it would be as dramatic as you seem to. Sorry if the apocalypse cometh. Would still like to know who the builder is.


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## MAV181 (Aug 26, 2010)

mosquitolaGOON said:


> Just check the bragging section for pictures and you will see.




Oh wow. That wasn't my first guess. I better not sit with my back to the door.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

MAV181 said:


> Well.. this is a skiff forum. Chris morejohn posted some info about a skiff on his blog. He pointed out some issues with the build. People come to forums to gain knowledge and make better purchase decisions. It would be good to know who may no be up to snuff in this industry so to speak. Didn't think it would be as dramatic as you seem to. Sorry if the apocalypse cometh. Would still like to know who the builder is.


Not sure how you think this is an apocalypse, that's pretty dramatic if you ask me. Your perception of "up to snuff" is subjective. Some builders use high tech composites and vacuum bag lamination and charge a premium. Others laminate the old fashioned way and don't put the time into fit and finish and charge less. There are a few that are somewhere in the middle. I don't think it's a secret, most are pretty transparent about their build process.

As for the pictures you posted the transom is a big clue. I'll leave the research to those of you determined to figure it out.


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## MAV181 (Aug 26, 2010)

el9surf said:


> Not sure how you think this is an apocalypse, that's pretty dramatic if you ask me. Your perception of "up to snuff" is subjective. Some builders use high tech composites and vacuum bag lamination and charge a premium. Others laminate the old fashioned way and don't put the time into fit and finish and charge less. There are a few that are somewhere in the middle. I don't think it's a secret, most are pretty transparent about their build process.
> 
> As for the pictures you posted the transom is a big clue. I'll leave the research to those of you determined to figure it out.



Not sure how you think this will start WWIII. That's a little dramatic. Hence the satirical apocalypse reference. Check out Morejohns blog by clicking the link below.

http://chrismorejohn.blogspot.com/2016/12/analyzing-today-technical-flats-skiff.html?m=1[/QUOTE]


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Yep read his blog, I know where you pulled the material from. 

If you are in the market for a skiff talk to owners, talk to guys who were previous owners, wet test, use Google, talk to some guides that own the boat and connect the dots. Lots of info out there to be found.


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## MAV181 (Aug 26, 2010)

el9surf said:


> Yep read his blog, I know where you pulled the material from.
> 
> If you are in the market for a skiff talk to owners, talk to guys who were previous owners, wet test, use Google, talk to some guides that own the boat and connect the dots. Lots of info out there to be found.



In my first post I said this was from his blog and then quoted him. You must have missed that part. Just a messenger here that was curious about who the builder is. These little guys " " mean someone else said it.


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## sotilloa1078 (Mar 27, 2014)

I read his blog. We all know that Chris is not a big fan of certain manufacturers. The only two things he said he didn't like about those pictures was that the finish of the inside of the hull was "shiny" and that it should have been more of a dull look. That's his opinion. Which he makes very well known. In the picture of the deck. His critique was that there is over lap of glass in the middle which "adds weight" and prep time/labor. I guarantee if you cut that section of glass out and weigh it, it would weigh mere ounces. But look further in my thread, you will see where the "overlap" is there in two fenolic plates that serve as support for casting platform fuel fill etc. call it over lap i call it support. The guy has an agenda, he called out top builders in his blog in hopes of promoting his new hull design. But that's just my observation


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Don't really know what to think about this post. I mean how is a guy supposed to know if any given shop is building the boats properly to shave the last ounce of weight and still not come apart after a few years use? When I rode on the Professional I looked at the water level with both of us on the stern and rough guesstimation saw a little over 5" of draft but of course did not have a ruler with me...









Here is an image of the Professional I am having built. Reading Morejohn's blog page referenced, I cannot really tell if they are building these boats "correctly" but it looks pretty tight and clean to me. Being around 1400 miles away all I can go on is these pictures they send. Laminations do not look too wet or too dry to me. As far as the lamination schedule not sure what layers comprise the build.
















So looking at these images I do not see excessive waste of material and all looks pretty tight and clean to me. Maybe some guru here can critique what they see in these images to educate all us wannabe skiff purchasers? This is of course my new HB Professional being built just so there is no ambiguity...Kind of a disturbing post since it is logical for a buyer [prospective] to assume these guys really know what they are doing in building a high end skiff that will last for many years and work as advertised? They provide these images so they are not trying to hide anything...


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## sotilloa1078 (Mar 27, 2014)

Commtrd like I said. Chris Morejon. Has an agenda he does not like HB because they didn't give him credit for the hull designs. So naturally he throws jabs out against them. Find me a HB with any stress cracks on it and I'll be VERY surprised. The boats are built strong and light. Not as light as 02 but it's a new era. People want to run harder and faster. I put my pro through the ringer and that boat when I sold it looked like new. He calls them heavy but I say a 590 lb boat is light if you ask me.

He gives credit to his buddy Hal Chittum on his build process. Hal makes a nice boat now. But it's known that the last years Hal owned HB the boats were not "top quality". So what gives? See what I'm getting at?

I'll say this believe a fraction of what you read and hear and all of what you see.


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## grovesnatcher (Sep 25, 2007)

Agreed, your skiff will be bomb proof and a joy to own. Excellent build quality, we need more fishing reports and less bashing manufacturers. We are blessed to have a lot of options, and great builders here in Florida.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

I thought the most interesting part of his blog was the discussion on building technique - specifically the part about bonding the core to the fiberglass skin:

"...they will bond with putty which will be a secondary bond if not done on time."

I have seen some pictures of skiff builds where the gel coat is shot into the mold, and the fiberglass skin is laid up, without the core, and (appears to be) left overnight. I believe that his statement that you are not getting a chemical bond with the core is spot on, if it is the case that they are leaving the skin to cure before bonding the core...


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Hey, Chris isn't bashing. His post is a good read. I appreciate him sharing his knowledge and I learned a ton from it. Other builders say in person what Chris posts on his blog, so I don't have a problem with it. Not saying every builder does it, but I've personally heard several, of which one completely turned me off from buying their brand.

And I worked with a builder before that assured me of certain things inside of their "sealed" hull that were in fact incorrect. You don't know what you can't see, but when my hull separated from the cap, I was able to call BS.

Debate and challenging convention is good. There's that saying - if everyone agreed all the time, there'd be no forward progress.


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## Skiff Junky (Oct 6, 2015)

yobata said:


> I thought the most interesting part of his blog was the discussion on building technique - specifically the part about bonding the core to the fiberglass skin:
> 
> "...they will bond with putty which will be a secondary bond if not done on time."
> 
> I have seen some pictures of skiff builds where the gel coat is shot into the mold, and the fiberglass skin is laid up, without the core, and (appears to be) left overnight. I believe that his statement that you are not getting a chemical bond with the core is spot on, if it is the case that they are leaving the skin to cure before bonding the core...


If you lay it up too fast, she'll heat up and release prematurely and the main reason for the "pause" between. Vacuum infusion makes it a one step process but also a "science".

Disclaimer:
I'm not in the Morejohn fan club but he knows what he is doing and has to have resin in his veins. He has a passion for what he does and obviously subscribes to "relentless pursuit of perfection". 

Most of the followers of the high end skiffs will acknowledge that the hulls gained a few pounds with the new ownership. All Chris did was point out some of the reasons why. This thread should at least give a starting point for those considering the product with the age old question of new vs old. I doubt this thread will make a difference in sales for either side but at least they will be informed. But as already pointed out, the trolling motor and batteries will far exceed the extra weight of the overlap in lamination.

As far as having an "agenda". Again, not in the fan club but you might consider someone with a passion developing a product that changed the industry and then, in his opinion, maybe taking a wrong turn for his perception of where it's future should be.

He said "it won't come apart". It's just his opinion that things could be done better. That pursuit of perfection again. He even goes on to say that he would like to see if someone would build his design with his methods to see if it will work the way he intended. What a concept, design a boat and actually put it in the water before making marketing claims.

Just my take

SJ


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## sotilloa1078 (Mar 27, 2014)

A


Skiff Junky said:


> If you lay it up too fast, she'll heat up and release prematurely and the main reason for the "pause" between. Vacuum infusion makes it a one step process but also a "science".
> 
> Disclaimer:
> I'm not in the Morejohn fan club but he knows what he is doing and has to have resin in his veins. He has a passion for what he does and obviously subscribes to "relentless pursuit of perfection".
> ...



Agreed, without a doubt Chris is VERY knowledgeable and is the reason for many skiffs today. My main thing is this, he has his "old school" way of how things should be done. Every manufacturer builds their boat different. Everyone knows how each boat is currently being built. If you don't then go by the factory and look. I've read his blog multiple times just to make sure I'm not off base. That blog will definitely not affect sales. 

There's only a couple of boat comanies that are always tweaking and adjusting laminations that's what makes the skiff world go round.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Skiff Junky said:


> If you lay it up too fast, she'll heat up and release prematurely and the main reason for the "pause" between. Vacuum infusion makes it a one step process but also a "science".
> 
> Disclaimer:
> I'm not in the Morejohn fan club but he knows what he is doing and has to have resin in his veins. He has a passion for what he does and obviously subscribes to "relentless pursuit of perfection".
> ...


Thank you for the explanation about the pause - makes sense for not popping it early. But what are the time lines? I have only worked with epoxy, and I believe after it fully cures (in 8 hours) you can only get mechanical bonding. 

Sorry to de-rail the thread


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## Skiff Junky (Oct 6, 2015)

sotilloa1078 said:


> A
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you're missing the point.

He's trying to point out that the layup in the picture is "old school". I have not visited that shop nor do I intend to but from what I see, I agree.

The point is that he is constantly trying to tweak the process and the way I interpret the blog, he feels maybe they could be digressing from his vision for the mold's future. Again, I would agree based on the pics. But that's my opinion and perception of what I would have done with that company. 

Again, nothing wrong with what's done assuming it's "old school" building methods. They are tried and true. Extra weight will help the boat ride better and has been a builders battle for ride vs efficiency. Talk about demons............... Also remember the driving force of that company comes from advertising. That's not a bash as I have every confidence they are pushing the limits in their own way. Mr. Morejohn has lived his life with his thumb on the pulse laying up hulls himself. And just to make sure, I'm not part of the fan club but I do have respect for his opinions and accomplishments.

Doesn't mean one is any better than another but each has it's purpose for it's intended use. However, I would not consider construction based on the posted pics "state of the art". Aero space has put us further ahead than that.


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## Skiff Junky (Oct 6, 2015)

yobata said:


> Thank you for the explanation about the pause - makes sense for not popping it early. But what are the time lines? I have only worked with epoxy, and I believe after it fully cures (in 8 hours) you can only get mechanical bonding.
> 
> Sorry to de-rail the thread


Epoxy is a different animal.

Save it for a Chittum thread or dig up an old Harry Spear build.

And I apologize for derail also


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Well it is a revelation to find out that HB building methodology is "old school". Whatever. It will be a well built functional boat that carries a great resale value if needed and will provide years of good fishing on it. I have fished on scooters that weighed next to nothing and while they would float and run in nothing, they will also beat the **** out of your legs and knees. The Professional I rode on poled around nicely in under 8" and shot out of the hole in around a foot deep. Quiet on the pole too. I am sure the ECC and the BT, Chittum, Spear, Mitzi, Ankona, and all the rest will do similar. All different price points available so we pay our money and take our chances. If I had the time and place to do so, a Bateau build would have got done I think. Those boats are really appealing to me and hope to build one someday. Great discussion though.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Oh yeah forgot to mention there is some pride of ownership with a HB as well. Darn nice looking boats. So there's that...


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## sotilloa1078 (Mar 27, 2014)

Skiff Junky said:


> I think you're missing the point.
> 
> He's trying to point out that the layup in the picture is "old school". I have not visited that shop nor do I intend to but from what I see, I agree.
> 
> ...



I see the point, he thinks it could be done differently. And use more "modern" techniques. I get that, I'm very curious to see his new boat. I love skiffs and always like seeing new things come out. Like stated above me even with the "old school" build process, the boats are built strong as s&!t and light. This thread is actually good. No one has gotten out of hand and I think we've all gained something from this. There's definitely pride in ownership of a HB and there PLENTY of reasons to be proud! But then again we all love our skiffs.


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## Skiff Junky (Oct 6, 2015)

sotilloa1078 said:


> I see the point, he thinks it could be done differently. And use more "modern" techniques. I get that, I'm very curious to see his new boat. I love skiffs and always like seeing new things come out. Like stated above me even with the "old school" build process, the boats are built strong as s&!t and light. This thread is actually good. No one has gotten out of hand and I think we've all gained something from this. There's definitely pride in ownership of a HB and there PLENTY of reasons to be proud! But then again we all love our skiffs.


You sir have captured the founder's intent for this site.

My intent has never been to tell someone what is "right". Only to make them think so they can make their own informed decisions.

My philosophy is "if it floats" it's good. If it doesn't, the site has a whole boatyard basics to fix it.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Just curiosity but if vacuum bagged resin infusion cored composites are "old school" then what would be considered state of the art? Because I can guarantee that TX boat builders are way behind that curve... Just sayin and anyway the end results by all accounts are fairly impressive. I fell smooth in love with that Professional after about 15 minutes into that 2 hour outing. Blown away compared to any other boat I have been on in the past 45 years spent on the water. Felt like a surgical instrument how it handled and what it would do. In the end I think that's what matters really... kinda like I like dreamy brunettes with all those attributes (ahem) and you like killer blondes? Like that...


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

Texas makers aren't even in the same century. At least a lot of them are putting nicer hatches on their $70k boats now.  But most are still splatter coat, rolled edge.

Us skiff guys are an interesting lot. We want out fuel tanks up front for weight, but we want a carbon graphite casting platform to save weight.


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## Skiff Junky (Oct 6, 2015)

commtrd said:


> Just curiosity but if vacuum bagged resin infusion cored composites are "old school" then what would be considered state of the art? Because I can guarantee that TX boat builders are way behind that curve... Just sayin and anyway the end results by all accounts are fairly impressive. I fell smooth in love with that Professional after about 15 minutes into that 2 hour outing. Blown away compared to any other boat I have been on in the past 45 years spent on the water. Felt like a surgical instrument how it handled and what it would do. In the end I think that's what matters really... kinda like I like dreamy brunettes with all those attributes (ahem) and you like killer blondes? Like that...


Research Chittum Skiffs and you'll get the idea.

Like I said before, nothing wrong with your build. They have been doing it since what 2007 now? The 15 min ride in along with the blond / brunette analogy I hope is not cold feet at the alter and that you will have a long love affair.

The only reason I looked at this thread was to see what Mr/ Morejohn had to say. His concepts would apply to a project that interest me unrelated to as the skiff world turns..


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

I am not convinced of the emphasis on building the lightest flats boat possible should be an end-all goal. Weight can be your friend in chop and I wonder how a 300# 18' skiff will track and pole in a cross wind...

Just to throw a little grease on the fire, let's not forget that there are three sides to the original Hal Chittum, Flip Pallot and Chris Morejohn story. If you look through the Chittum thread on here and in Chris's blogs, you will be hard pressed to find any mention of Flip's positive contribution to the original HB, but you will find some unkind (if oblique) words for HB.


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## Skiff Junky (Oct 6, 2015)

Blue Zone said:


> I am not convinced of the emphasis on building the lightest flats boat possible should be an end-all goal. Weight can be your friend in chop and I wonder how a 300# 18' skiff will track and pole in a cross wind...
> 
> Just to throw a little grease on the fire, let's not forget that there are three sides to the original Hal Chittum, Flip Pallot and Chris Morejohn story. If you look through the Chittum thread on here and in Chris's blogs, you will be hard pressed to find any mention of Flip's positive contribution to the original HB, but you will find some unkind (if oblique) words for HB.


blasphemy

I had a proven hull design built by the original builder in the lightest, most advanced layup available at the time. BIG mistake. I learned things from that hull that I never expected and never want to reproduce again.


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## Limp Shrimp (Aug 23, 2015)

It's funny when the glass house shatters... All you elitists that want your bought name to be the latest greatest finally figure out its not...


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

commtrd said:


> Oh yeah forgot to mention there is some pride of ownership with a HB as well. Darn nice looking boats. So there's that...


Interesting statement from a HB owner


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Are there more advanced materials that could be used? Sure, epoxy is a good example. It's also a lot more expensive and sensitive to work with. It doesn't catalyze well in cool temps, it gets fish eyes fairly easy and you have less time to achieve a chemical bond. Not to mention it can melt containers and catch things on fire if your not careful. So you have to consider what works best for the whole process and not just whether the latest material is being used.
If someone wants to donate a Marquesa that isn't quite up to snuff I'll gladly take it off your hands.


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

So I'm no Hells Bay owner so my opinion isn't worth the space on this webpage but... If you look at most of the mass produced boats as well as some of the custom skiffs you'll see that they are either hand laying or shooting a chipper gun. So the methods like vacuum bagging and whatnot are much more advanced and shouldn't rub ol Chris the wrong way like it has. 

These are skiffs, fellas, they are meant to get into shallow water so we can jack lips. If I were an astronaut I'd be a bit more concerned about the latest technology and glassing methods. I shopped almost every skiff manufacturer before pulling the trigger on my skiff, yes even Hells Bay . Although seeing the build process is fun, having a good deck layout, knowing how much water i can fish in, how it will pole, and service after the sale meant a hell of a lot more to me than whatever additional weight is added by the overlap of the glass matts.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

Limp Shrimp said:


> It's funny when the glass house shatters... All you elitists that want your bought name to be the latest greatest finally figure out its not...


Ha! Never considered myself an elitist that's a good one... Just another schmuck trying to get enough time to go fishing once in a while. Whether or not a boat is the latest and greatest matters not at all to me. Probably [guessing here] not much at all to most of the guys on this forum either. To me the real elites are the guys who build these beautiful skiffs themselves. Now that is truly something to be proud of there. Spent many hours reading their build threads and dreaming about someday building my own boat. Those are the guys we should look up to IMHO.

BTW the "bought name" has a lot to do with the resale value in case it became necessary to (sadly) sell the boat someday. Like Harley Davidson motorcycles; I think most of those are ridiculous but they sure tend to hold their resale value pretty well.


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## Limp Shrimp (Aug 23, 2015)

Com, IMO it's just a boat. ... too many people want those boats to be great and they are just boats...


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

It is what it is and there is always the freedom to go buy (or build) whatever one wants. Value is perceived and hopefully delivered as well. At least there are choices.


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Three questions here: how does vacuum infusion work? Also what is a rolled edge build? 

What skiffs did Morejohn design? Did he design the super skiff and challenger too?


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## Barbs_deep (Jul 4, 2010)

Chittum skiffs seem to use the so called "latest and greatest" and they aren't exactly flying off the shelves. 

I'm of the mindset of it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

commtrd said:


> To me the real elites are the guys who build these beautiful skiffs themselves. Now that is truly something to be proud of there. Spent many hours reading their build threads and dreaming about someday building my own boat. Those are the guys we should look up to IMHO.


Damn skippy! Lol seriously I appreciate this comment, and encourage anyone who thinks this way to give it a try. If my shoulder heals up ok I'll be starting on my 4th build next year. Once you get the technique down and realize it's not as hard as it looks, you start to wonder why some spend so much on something so simple.


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## Limp Shrimp (Aug 23, 2015)

mosquitolaGOON said:


> Three questions here: how does vacuum infusion work? Also what is a rolled edge build?
> 
> What skiffs did Morejohn design? Did he design the super skiff and challenger too?


Vacuum bagging distributes resign more evenly to decrease weight...
Morejohn did not design the Super Skiff, it was copied from the Banana River Skiff..


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

Barbs_deep said:


> Chittum skiffs seem to use the so called "latest and greatest" and they aren't exactly flying off the shelves.
> 
> I'm of the mindset of it ain't broke, don't fix it.


A buddy of mine has been waiting for his skiff for two years, and he was promised it would have been just a few months.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

I have an 01 waterman 16, no deck, no walkable gunnels, very light. It came to me with the original 114 lb 25hp merc. Running in a chop or across wakes would rattle our teeth out. My grandson hated the ride and always tried to get me to take the SilverKing. After a few months I installed a new 50hp Tohatsu and put a trolling motor up front (blasphemy I know). The ride was so improved from the added weight it was stunning. I still have no problems getting as shallow as I need to.


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

Bagging vs Infusion. Unless the terminology has changed bagging used to mean laying up and rolling out the resin by hand, then throwing a bag over it and drawing out the excess resin. Infusing starts out with a dry layup and draws the resin out of containers and into the core.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

If a company like HB made a move to a material like epoxy for lamination their pricing would certainly reflect the added material cost and labor. How would that impact their sales? It's not as easy to make these changes without having a ripple effect to an established business.

While Chris can be upset that things are being done old school they are a business and have a profit margin to maintain and a production schedule to adhere to if they want to be successful. In my opinion I think their business model and their finished product works pretty good.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Blue Zone said:


> I am not convinced of the emphasis on building the lightest flats boat possible should be an end-all goal. Weight can be your friend in chop and I wonder how a 300# 18' skiff will track and pole in a cross wind...
> 
> Just to throw a little grease on the fire, let's not forget that there are three sides to the original Hal Chittum, Flip Pallot and Chris Morejohn story. If you look through the Chittum thread on here and in Chris's blogs, you will be hard pressed to find any mention of Flip's positive contribution to the original HB, but you will find some unkind (if oblique) words for HB.


Lightweight skiff poling is good in perfect conditions. For my fishing methods and locations the 2015 tiller Pro I use now is about as heavy as I want to push. It tracks better into the wind than a 300 lb Glades or old school Waterman but it takes more muscle power.


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

Well good morning skiff followers,
Wow, I did not expect such a great response. This has been a very good thread and discussion here by very informed fellow skiff lovers of design, builds and use.
Because of the many varied questions asked here I will write a follow up blog to try and answer as many questions about building skiffs that I know to maybe help things along.
I have sailed my boat the Hogfish Maximus to Islamorada in the keys and will be here for most of the winter at anchor. I only do Internet when I'am ashore so there will be lags in my posts.
Here now I will try and clear up some questions and try and clarify my latest blog but will do so in detail with the next blog. I hope this will help.
To start with I am not in any partnership or business with any boatbuilding company or anyone anywhere in the world. I just draw skiffs, do designs to my current way of thinking, try to sell sailboat and skiff designs to home builders and write a personal blog talking about my past, and present way of thinking.
I am very humbled that you are reading my goings on about my thoughts on skiff designs,builds and so on. I love discussing boats in all manners.
The last blog was my discussing my 2-1/2 year old design the LITIHUM that I had designed to possibly improve on my past design the 17.8. I used the 17.8 as the basis for this design. I have ridden in it enough to know its ability,pros and cons but with today's needs of bigger engines the wanting of faster speeds I came up with this design as my possible answer.
I really would like to see how the latest details of my chine thinking would work without actually having to build one myself. Lucky for me along came Geneo Baker.
Now we all will benefit by this build as Geneo is building exactly to my plans. If some details of this skiff work then other designs could benefit as others have since the WHIPRAY concept was launched way back in the 90s. Because of this I am explaining my thoughts in my blog and hoping some or all of them do something to add to a nich part of the technical flats skiff world. Geneos taking the financial build risk and I'am just looking to see if some of the new stuff can be carried on into future designs. To me it seems like yesterday but to many of you readers you were teenagers back then. 
With this in mind and with the high cost of top end skiffs today, (remember I built my 38' 16 ton sailboat for $35,00.00 back in 97-99 and have ventured far and wide in her since) I keep looking into other ways ways of people getting a technical skiff by building at home then buying a built one.
Hence my foray into the plans design business.
Now as to my comments on some of what I see today as skiff building going on being old school. 
Back in 1997 the Internet was just getting going. Look at this site today. This to me is the present where we have in an instant a forum to discuss skiffs and all questions. Amazing.
Being 58 years old and having grown up on boats and boat building I feel my roots are in old school detail boat building with a consciousness towards build integrity, detail, function, and use.
There are many ways to build a great skiff from a flat iron wood skiff to modern day Vacume infusioning of hulls and parts.
What I am looking to get is a linking up of the consumers of this great market to get the builders, the sellers of their each Individual product that's is claiming to be at the top of the building ladder to ask show me why, and yes let's explain and show you.
It's one thing to be a great salesman but being a great builder too is better.
This site is all about details. Talk to anyone that has ever worked for me and my guess is they will say I am a detail driven boss. 
With this in mind when threads are all about hull weights, performance,looks, and all the other details then yes, I am picking and pointing out small stuff but it all adds up and you the consumers are paying for it. Fiberglass is an amazing product. Fiberglass boats will out live us all no mater how they were built.
I will explain and show as best I can more details of my thoughts on details, building terms and what they mean to me not just the way they are used to sell boats in my next blog. 
Please keep this thread going as I feel it's a subject that needs to be looked at for the future of the industry for both builders and buyers.
Building a canoe hull can go many ways, roto molded, basic quick fiberglass, carbon with great care, wood strip on down to cement. But when you want to discus the merits of all these methods in the same thread it can get complicated. There are many ways to build a state of the art cement canoe and if you want to be claiming yours is the best then it better be.
I live a simple life with my wife on our sailboat roaming about. Next December in 2017 we will be sailing to the pacific leaving this part of the world behind for years exploring and working our way along. This will be my last time here in Florida this winter seeing the skiff world that has been a part of my life. 
Any boat that floats is a good start. Let's keep on talking and going over the details.
Because of my lifestyle I cannot be talking on here all the time. 
If anyone has a question the best way to talk to me is my email address.......
[email protected]
We are off to see how far up the shark River we can sail our boat for the next two weeks.
Thanks again for lending me an ear.
Happy holiday's


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

Dads home ...


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## TylertheTrout2 (Apr 21, 2016)

Lol @EdK13 ... Thanks for the detailed response Chris! Enjoy the Shark Rive mission!!


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## sotilloa1078 (Mar 27, 2014)

Thanks for stopping by Chris. Looking forward to the next blog.


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

I just wish the builders would knock down their prices they raised years ago stating "rising material costs". When I left the FRP industry in 2014 I was buying millions of pounds of glass and resin at the cheapest prices ever.


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

Sublime said:


> I just wish the builders would knock down their prices they raised years ago stating "rising material costs". When I left the FRP industry in 2014 I was buying millions of pounds of glass and resin at the cheapest prices ever.


It's crazy, skiff priced prices doubled overnight. But hey, the value in anything is what someone is willing to pay for it. Perceived value goes a long way.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

paint it black said:


> It's crazy, skiff priced prices doubled overnight. But hey, the value in anything is what someone is willing to pay for it. Perceived value goes a long way.


Everything is going up. Its the murican way..


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

A lot has to do with the destruction of the buying power of the fiat dollar. Why everything is so damn expensive.


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## schwaggen01 (Dec 22, 2014)

A good skiff is very expensive for three main reasons:

1.) Scale. If you're going to make a living building and selling boats, the COST of building them is spread out over however many units you make. And let's face it, the specific niche of the sporting world we inhabit is not populous. So the significant costs of running the business is divided over a relatively few units in most cases.

2.) Labor. You need/want guys who are craftsmen who know what they are doing, and by the time you spread their hourly rate over the three weeks or two months or whatever it takes to build a skiff, that's not cheap. Labor is the single biggest line item in any build.

3.) Fit and finish. This is directly related to #2- but it takes considerably longer time and more resources to build a really nice skiff VS. a cheap one. The difference is pretty obvious. Especially on a skiff that has a couple hundred hours on it- It's hard for someone to tell you about durability when showing you a brand-new boat at the boat show. Seeing one that a guide has beat the shit out of for years and still holds up- that's a big deal.

I have a ton of respect for Chris Morejon- he fits the profile of a number of guys all the way back to Herreschoff- A natural-born engineer and tinkerer. You can debate about the roots of the modern skiff, but more than almost anyone, he has led the way to what the modern technical skiff looks like. And while I value his opinion as someone who has built way more than his fair share of boats, I also understand that there are decisions made in the design and building of skiffs that may not align with his thinking and experience, and that doesn't necessarily make them bad or wrong.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

schwaggen01 said:


> A good skiff is very expensive for three main reasons:
> 
> 1.) Scale. If you're going to make a living building and selling boats, the COST of building them is spread out over however many units you make. And let's face it, the specific niche of the sporting world we inhabit is not populous. So the significant costs of running the business is divided over a relatively few units in most cases.
> 
> ...




Well written sir. And absolutely correct.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

el9surf said:


> If a company like HB made a move to a material like epoxy for lamination their pricing would certainly reflect the added material cost and labor. How would that impact their sales? It's not as easy to make these changes without having a ripple effect to an established business.
> 
> While Chris can be upset that things are being done old school they are a business and have a profit margin to maintain and a production schedule to adhere to if they want to be successful. In my opinion I think their business model and their finished product works pretty good.


Production costs already astronomical on high end skiffs. I think there is a balance beyond which prices just get to where the vast majority cannot afford to buy the boats. $75000 for a shallow water skiff while realistic for building methodology, labor, and materials is totally not realistic in the marketplace with the headwinds people are facing economically. Point of diminishing returns.


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## Limp Shrimp (Aug 23, 2015)

Seems like the original HB owners had a good thing price point wise ... The epoxy Islamorada 18 would of made a great addition to the HB line up and probably would of made epoxy skiffs a functional business.. I can't really see them making it for long if all they offer is such high end skiffs..


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## jonny (May 1, 2007)

commtrd said:


> Just curiosity but if vacuum bagged resin infusion cored composites are "old school" then what would be considered state of the art? Because I can guarantee that TX boat builders are way behind that curve... Just sayin and anyway the end results by all accounts are fairly impressive. I fell smooth in love with that Professional after about 15 minutes into that 2 hour outing. Blown away compared to any other boat I have been on in the past 45 years spent on the water. Felt like a surgical instrument how it handled and what it would do. In the end I think that's what matters really... kinda like I like dreamy brunettes with all those attributes (ahem) and you like killer blondes? Like that...





commtrd said:


> Just curiosity but if vacuum bagged resin infusion cored composites are "old school" then what would be considered state of the art? Because I can guarantee that TX boat builders are way behind that curve... Just sayin and anyway the end results by all accounts are fairly impressive. I fell smooth in love with that Professional after about 15 minutes into that 2 hour outing. Blown away compared to any other boat I have been on in the past 45 years spent on the water. Felt like a surgical instrument how it handled and what it would do. In the end I think that's what matters really... kinda like I like dreamy brunettes with all those attributes (ahem) and you like killer blondes? Like that...


Hellsbay build is a wet hand layup technique. They only vacumn the core down after layup. To help it bond and pull any excess resin out.


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

Good day and happy new year.
I have posted my 2and part reply hoping to clarify my words of my last post. It's a bit long winded but I was anchored up the Shark River with the bug screens in so had time to write.
Thanks for reading,
Chris


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

Chris Morejohn said:


> Good day and happy new year.
> I have posted my 2and part reply hoping to clarify my words of my last post. It's a bit long winded but I was anchored up the Shark River with the bug screens in so had time to write.
> Thanks for reading,
> Chris


Great read! I was up in Tarpon Bay last week, wondered if I'd come across you along the way.


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## MAV181 (Aug 26, 2010)

Chris Morejohn said:


> Good day and happy new year.
> I have posted my 2and part reply hoping to clarify my words of my last post. It's a bit long winded but I was anchored up the Shark River with the bug screens in so had time to write.
> Thanks for reading,
> Chris


Thanks for taking the time to post all that info on your blog. Very informative.


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## George Sawley (Nov 7, 2015)

Wow, all kinds of info here on old school vs new technology I see the $70K price tag has been thrown around on this thread a few times as well as the term over priced.

We do offer a $49.5K boat, motor, trailer package that I believe is better then our late great $70K model in many ways. Not trying to diminish the value of the older skiffs we built in any way as they are truly boats that out class all the rest in design and technology in my opinion. But we have had the opportunity to learn and evolve.

Chris Morejohn's Blog is very informative and does lay out the basics in materials and processes. Its hard to explain the differences in our skiff from the competition without giving up trade secrets. There are so many options out there in materials to choose from that it is some time overwhelming. We like to take small steps and do our testing whither its design, materials or processes.

In our opinion at Chittum Skiffs if you are sticking with old school you will be left behind, we don't want to pole those old school boats around ourself's so why would our clients. Every ounce counts and efficiency is key but you must design for it if you want the end product to ultimately be the best it can be.

So here is my shameless plug, come and take a tour of our shop. Bring your current skiff and pole it side by side with ours and then go wet test the other skiffs on your short list before you buy your next one. I know you will be able to quantify the difference!

Happy New Year!


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

George Sawley said:


> Wow, all kinds of info here on old school vs new technology I see the $70K price tag has been thrown around on this thread a few times as well as the term over priced.
> 
> We do offer a $49.5K boat, motor, trailer package that I believe is better then our late great $70K model in many ways. Not trying to diminish the value of the older skiffs we built in any way as they are truly boats that out class all the rest in design and technology in my opinion. But we have had the opportunity to learn and evolve.
> 
> ...


George,

Help me to understand how you use basically the same materials and technology on the new skiffs as the Legacy while developing two new designs, then manage to shave 20k off the price. 

As i mentioned earlier in this thread, I am not convinced the lightest boat possible is without any compromise.

On another note, I really like the custom step-box cooler built into the forward bulkhead on one of the Legacys. Great innovation you should put on the option list.


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## George Sawley (Nov 7, 2015)

Blue Zone said:


> George,
> 
> Help me to understand how you use basically the same materials and technology on the new skiffs as the Legacy while developing two new designs, then manage to shave 20k off the price.
> 
> ...



Our hulls the 12 and the 2 degree are the same as from the beginning except a small modification to the 2 degree. Our biggest design change was in the deck and console with ice chest. Both were time consuming to build. Making those changes saved in build time. There were other parts like live well and 2 bulkheads that we took out of the design that saved in time and material. We were also building a skiff that could handle up to a 150 hp that was also time consuming and costly. We now only build to a 90 hp rating on the 12 degree and 70hp on the 2 degree. Not painting and switching to gelcoat saved 10k right off the bat. We also offer the skiff on a less expensive galvanized trailer, it all adds up. 

As far as weight goes if you want weight add it. Put more fuel in, add extra gear or use ballast bags. How about the days you bring the third person and now your skiff feels like a tub. If you are going to buy a 50K boat it would be nice to have the option I would think to go either way. If its a calm day I put safety gear 2 rods, one box of tackle a small soft cooler and 3 gallons of gas and I can pole all day and cover way more ground then if I had to pole a extra 500 pounds that most have too. 

Dead rise, length, beam and balance go a lot further then weight in our skiffs.


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## sotilloa1078 (Mar 27, 2014)

geez I don't know who's poling an extra 500 lbs. who ever it is... Hats off to you!


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## Limp Shrimp (Aug 23, 2015)

Maybe not 500##s, but I carry way more than I should compared to how you guys role in your tiller skiffs... it wouldn't surprise me if it was close... I have 3 group 27s, PP, TM, and it takes 15 gallons of fuel to balance out my boat with F90 and a PP on the back...


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## Skiff Junky (Oct 6, 2015)

Limp Shrimp said:


> Maybe not 500##s, but I carry way more than I should compared to how you guys role in your tiller skiffs... it wouldn't surprise me if it was close... I have 3 group 27s, PP, TM, and it takes 15 gallons of fuel to balance out my boat with F90 and a PP on the back...


If rigging a boat this way makes it best suited for your use, then so be it but I always considered a TM with 3 batteries kind of hypocritical for a TPS.


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## Limp Shrimp (Aug 23, 2015)

One's a starting battery... I very rarely pole my boat... It takes two motivated people to pole and sight fish... Too many trips with people that think yelling its right there louder and louder clarifies a fishes location or telling me the fish is at 3 o'clock when it's on my left has made me give up on that type of fishing! I fish a lot of edges and water deep enough to TM through... There's not a lot of Tarpon in ankle deep water anyway!


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