# Tohatsu MFS60 v Suzuki DF60A v Yamaha F70



## WylanB

*SPECS:*
Tohatsu:
- 3 Cylinder
- 866cc
- 70 x 75 bore x stroke (Ratio = 0.933)
- 5,000 - 6,000 Max RPM
- 60 horsepower
- 213 pounds (Likely more for 20" Shaft Length)

Suzuki:
- 3 Cylinder
- 941cc
- 72.5 x 76 bore x stroke (Ratio = 0.954)
- 5,300 - 6,300 Max RPM
- 60 horsepower
- 229 pounds 

Yamaha:
- 4 cylinder
- 1.0L
- 65 x 75 bore x stroke (Ratio = 0.867)
- 5,300 - 6,300 Max RPM
- 70 horsepower
- 253 pounds

*TECH TALK:*

Bore = Diameter of each cylinder
Stroke = Length of each cylinder

In short, a larger Bore x Stroke ratio means a larger surface area is exposed to combustion. This means less heat loss, increased energy transfer, and higher efficiency on the three cylinder Tohatsu and Suzuki motors. On the other hand, the Yamaha uses its larger displacement (more air, fuel, fire) and higher maximum RPM to produce more horsepower. It also weighs 40 pounds (roughly 18%) more than the lightest Tohatsu, which as we all know has an effect on draft and poling a bit, especially when directed over the transom. 

*RELIABILITY:*
This is always mentioned, so I thought I'd throw it in. Not much to mention here. I have not heard any negative reviews on any of the three motors. I think were getting to a point where reliability is pretty much standard across the board on these smaller outboards. Just my opinion. YMMV.

*NUMBERS:* (Hell's Bay Professional)

NOTE: This is the only comparison that I could find and no performance numbers have been posted for the Tohatsu MFS60 thus far. I'll be looking forward to seeing those when they come out! 

Suzuki:









Yamaha:









*CONCLUSION:*
The first thing that jumps out to me is that the 70HP Yamaha only does 1mph better than the 60HP Suzuki on the top end. Of course a lot of this has to do with hull design, but this is the best comparison that I could find. This shows that top speed should not be a deciding factor in making your decision. A 70 really isn't any _faster_ than a 60.

Now for the important parts:

The 60HP Suzuki is able to achieve a considerable increase in fuel efficiency (+3.8mpg) at best cruise and at the top of the RPM range. This makes sense since the engine is smaller, lighter, and more efficient (Remember: bore x stroke). This means that in addition to a lighter engine, you're able to bring less fuel on longer trips, which may help your boat's draft as well as your time on the pole. 

However, if we compare the lower end of the RPM range, the Yamaha actually gets better fuel efficiency and significantly greater performance across the board up to 3,500 RPM. The added horsepower will shine much more in minimum wake zones than it will crossing open channels. 

So the age old question exists: Is there truly "no replacement for displacement" or do the lighter and more efficient motors win out? The thing I learned is that this really depends on intended usage. I think for most people, you're better off with one of the 60's. Your boat will be lighter and you'll get to the fishing spots just as fast on much less fuel. However, if you find yourself running with heavy loads or spend a lot of time at lower RPMs, the Yamaha F70 is the better motor. No matter what you decide, I think its important to know your motor and how best to use it in order to maximize its strengths. Again, its NOT just about top speed! Just my $0.02. Hope this helps someone out there!


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## Half Shell

That's a pretty big difference in fuel economy; about 1 GPH at cruise speeds. Of course, these being skiffs that run to a few spots and pole, drift, or stake out that's equals what... $6 a day?

But better economy and less weight sounds good.


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## commtrd

A 15" shaft length can also contribute to being able to use a shorter poling platform with a 6" stroke Bob's jack plate. Just one of many design considerations that go into building a super functional poling skiff.


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## jmrodandgun

A 173 with a Suzuki will outrun my 173 with a tohatsu 50 by about 4 mph. Cruising speeds were about the same. The extra 10hp really shines in the slop. Other than that it's a wash.


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## Water Bound

Did you consider the Merc 60? 995 cc at 247 lbs.


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## WylanB

Water Bound said:


> Did you consider the Merc 60? 995 cc at 247 lbs.


If its true that Tohatsu is making all of Mercury's smaller outboards, I'm thinking we may see something new from Mercury fairly soon. Just speculation.


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## Matts

I like my 50 Tohatsu short shaft better than my 60 Zuke long shaft for the low end torque and mainly shorter poling platform. My new skiff is at least 150-250 lighter than the old one so hard to compare performance.


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah

The F70 is a great motor, with its 2.33:1 gear ratio, but I also favor Suzuki motors in certain sizes. The Suzuki testing was done at 91 degree air temp. I wonder what air temp the F70 was run with? Another comparison I'd like to see is the Yamaha F70 vs. Suzuki DF60AV. The Suzuki DF60AV has a larger gearcase and a 2.42:1 gear ratio - similar to its bigger brother, the awesome DF90A (with a 2.59:1 gear ratio). Some might say the DF60AV is a pontoon boat motor, but I'd like to see it push a flats skiff with a larger, higher pitch 3-blade prop. The lower gearing and larger prop would provide excellent hole shot and low-end torque, and also hold the bow up with less wetted hull surface, less porpoising, and better fuel economy. The DF60AV weighs in at 251 LBS. Just food for thought. 

Edit: Found the bulletin. The Yamaha F70 was tested at Air / Water Temperature (Fahrenheit) 73° F / 70° F


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## sotilloa1078

I know that when I had my Biscayne I initially got it with F70 before I reponerse to the Zuke DF 90. Anyway, a friend of mine had a Biscayne just like mike but with a Zuke 60. His boat was every bit as fast as mine if not maybe a bit faster. His economy was great and the low profile of that 60 was nice also. I’m curious to see who’s coming out with what at the miami show. A lightweight 90 would be awesome!!


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## Guest

I’ll take the Zuke any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


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## tjtfishon

WylanB said:


> If its true that Tohatsu is making all of Mercury's smaller outboards, I'm thinking we may see something new from Mercury fairly soon. Just speculation.


Mercury's 60 is a 4 cylinder and not made by Tohatsu


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## jonterr

Boatbrains said:


> I’ll take the Zuke any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


I’ve said it before
Never an f70 again for me!


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## ifsteve

There are two big factors that have to be included in any discussion like this IMO. The performance is certainly an important factor when deciding on your outboard but there are some other things that in many cases end up being the decision maker.

1. Suzuki is a lot less money than the Yamaha. Don't know about the Tohatsu.
2. Where you are located and availability to authorized service.


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## Bonesonthebrain

Hate to say it, but this discussion is a little short on substance. A small power rating difference does not necessarily result in greater speed. A lot depends on the power/torque curve, as well as many other factors. You may not get to as high of rpm due to the shape of the curve, or you could get an appreciable difference if the shape is advantageous. Rated power is not always an accurate indication of shaft power.

Also, the difference in power is the difference in speed to the third power. So small differences in speed result in larger differences in power. So 60 hp at 5700 rpm will theoretically be 6000 rpm at 70 hp for the same prop. But this assumes you have that power level at that rpm. So a 17% increase in power results in a 5% increase in rpm. 

But then when you factor in wind/water resistance, which is power to the square of the speed for turbulent flow, then the speed gained is less than 5%. 

Then you have factors like different props, weight balance of the vessel, wetted surface area, etc. 

So my point is just knowing a power rating, supposedly over a rpm range, is not enough to predict performance.


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## jonterr

Bonesonthebrain said:


> Hate to say it, but this discussion is a little short on substance. A small power rating difference does not necessarily result in greater speed. A lot depends on the power/torque curve, as well as many other factors. You may not get to as high of rpm due to the shape of the curve, or you could get an appreciable difference if the shape is advantageous. Rated power is not always an accurate indication of shaft power.
> 
> Also, the difference in power is the difference in speed to the third power. So small differences in speed result in larger differences in power. So 60 hp at 5700 rpm will theoretically be 6000 rpm at 70 hp for the same prop. But this assumes you have that power level at that rpm. So a 17% increase in power results in a 5% increase in rpm.
> 
> But then when you factor in wind/water resistance, which is power to the square of the speed for turbulent flow, then the speed gained is less than 5%.
> 
> Then you have factors like different props, weight balance of the vessel, wetted surface area, etc.
> 
> So my point is just knowing a power rating, supposedly over a rpm range, is not enough to predict performance.


I didn’t take any of that into consideration!
The only thing I considered is my NEW f70 slung a rod, and I’ll never have another one!!!


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## Backwater

SkiffaDeeDooDah said:


> The F70 is a great motor, with its 2.33:1 gear ratio, but I also favor Suzuki motors in certain sizes. The Suzuki testing was done at 91 degree air temp. I wonder what air temp the F70 was run with? Another comparison I'd like to see is the Yamaha F70 vs. Suzuki DF60AV. The Suzuki DF60AV has a larger gearcase and a 2.42:1 gear ratio - similar to its bigger brother, the awesome DF90A (with a 2.59:1 gear ratio). Some might say the DF60AV is a pontoon boat motor, but I'd like to see it push a flats skiff with a larger, higher pitch 3-blade prop. The lower gearing and larger prop would provide excellent hole shot and low-end torque, and also hold the bow up with less wetted hull surface, less porpoising, and better fuel economy. The DF60AV weighs in at 251 LBS. Just food for thought.
> 
> Edit: Found the bulletin. The Yamaha F70 was tested at Air / Water Temperature (Fahrenheit) 73° F / 70° F


I thought the same thing about the 60AV. But then you're back to basically the same prop power to weight ratio of a F70. Plus the 60AV version cost more than the regular Zuke 60A and almost the same weight as the F70. So you are almost at a wash with the F70, but about $1k difference, which you'll make back up on the resale of the F70.


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## Backwater

jonterr said:


> I didn’t take any of that into consideration!
> The only thing I considered is my NEW f70 slung a rod, and I’ll never have another one!!!


Jon, I totally understand what your decision was. However, that kind of thing has happened with any of the other brands at some point over the years. I wouldn't own a Hatsu for nearly the same reasons years ago, going through 2 of them to find that I had problems with both (one being the Nissan labeled Tohatsu tiller). I've also heard of several people complain about the Zukes also having problems and not getting much help with the warranty. Heck, back in the day, they were known for having terrible corrosion issues and even some marine techs sighting they still had some issues with corrosion in recent years. I'm hoping the corrosion resistance improvements in the last 2 years models have made some dramatic improvements with fighting off corrosion (or at least close to the improvements in that, or so what I'm hearing lately). I know many Mercs to be ok, but the problems I've had many decades ago only cause me to think of Mercs as a backup boat anchor. Hey, I also love Yamahas and I've had good luck with them. But doesn't mean I've never had problems with them, because in fact, I have. So to sum it up, I think there is an 80/20 rule with most OB's, where most of the time, there are not much issues with each mfg out there (hence the 80%) and some (possibly 20%+/-) have had issues with theirs. Hopefully, those issue odds decrease with conditions they are run in and how they are maintain. On the other hand, factory failure (possibly what you experienced) is even a smaller percentage (maybe like 1-5%).


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## Backwater

From what I know and what I've experienced, Yamaha has the best corrosion resistance. I'm hoping Zuke has improved with that. Also though Yamaha is more $$ going in, they hold their over value better, so you get more $$ going out (selling/re-sale values). So cost of actual ownership over the term of ownership, should also be considered. It's almost a wash between the 2 motors (Zuke vs Yami) as far as cost of ownership, except the fact that the Yami's cost $$ more going into it, but you get it back on the back side.

How about maintenance?? I'd like to see real actual cost to maintain it, one vs another. In the past, my maintenance on Yami's have been very little to speak of (being well maintained that is) and very little time in the shop, other than little maintence items that I've done on my own). On the other side of the coin, I've heard of Suzuki's spending more time in the shop. I am fortunate to have a Yami and Zuke shop close by (5mins tow from the house), but not so much for others. 

Funny, last month (3 weekends ago), There was a Chittum Mangrove 18 with a Hatsu. Interesting to display that OB on such a high dollar skiff (pretty much bare bones package for $65k).

How about price comparison between Yamaha, Suzuki, Tohatsu. Merc and Honda?

Here is a curve ball..... I use to live on the Little Manatee River, Ruskin, FL. House 30ft to the seawall, dock, boat lift, boat ramp, picnic table and fish cleaning station on the boat dock, Catch a snook, redfish, sea trout or snapper off the dock and in the cast iron skillet within 15 minutes of catching it (including wash down of the cleaning station), ice cold beer in the hand and getting ready to sit down for supper. Heck, I didn't even have to drop the boat in the water.  Lol Ahh, the good ole days....  Ok, where was I. Oh yeah, I mean the dock builder who was putting in the neighbors dock and he had a 60hp Honda on the back of his boat dock building barge where he would constantly run that barge why he was working and building the dock and pilings. So silts, sand, mud would constantly be flowing through his water pump, and the motor constantly be working hard under a heavy load. So when asked, he told me that he's been through every kind of OB out there and the Hondas seem to last him 3-to-1 over all the others. Thoughts?

https://marine.honda.com/outboards/motor-detail/BF60-BFP60#specs


I'm in the process of re-powering and looking at both these 2 OB's (Yami F70 and Zuke 60a). So this thread, along with the other one, is very interesting. Tho I'd love a Zuke 90 (my boat can handle it), the weight issue is the deal breaker for me on that one. Plus I live within 20mins of 10 different boat ramps, each with it's own body of water to fish. So I don't have to make extremely long runs. But when I fish other areas outside my home waters, fuel economy plays a big role (Glades/Florida Bay for instance).

My other considerations are, I love how the Zukes don't clunk going in and out of gear. I have a few fishing situations where they makes a difference to fish being put on notice or not. But I haven't witness them side-by-side, but I hear tell the F70 is quieter.

Is there any rumor where Zuke is coming out with a 70hp model of their 60a? Or a 90hp version of either one that is in the 250lb+/- range?

Also, I have a tall poling platform, so cowling height is not an issue, even for a 90 on a JP.


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## jonterr

Backwater said:


> Jon, I totally understand what your decision was. However, that kind of thing has happened with all the other brands. I wouldn't own a Hatsu for nearly the same reasons and I've heard of several people complain about the Zukes also having problems and not getting much help with the warranty. Heck, back in the day, they were known for having terrible corrosion issues. I'm hoping the last year or two's models have make some dramatic improvements (or at least close to the improvements in that, or so what I'm hearing lately). I know many Mercs to be ok, but the problems I've had many decades ago only cause me to think of Mercs as a backup boat anchor. Hey, I also love Yamahas and have had good luck with them. But doesn't mean I've never had problems with them, because in fact, I have.


I’m sure it happens to everybody, but it was the only motor that crapped out on me
Warranty actually wasn’t going to be an issue, they were going to put a new power head , I just didn’t want it any more
Just me


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## Stevie

Backwater said:


> From what I know and what I've experienced, Yamaha has the best corrosion resistance. I'm hoping Zuke has improved with that. Also though Yamaha is more going in, they hold their over value better, so you get more going out (selling). So cost of actual ownership over the term of ownership, should also be considered. It's almost a wash between the 2 motors (Zuke vs Yami) as far as cost of ownership, except the fact that the Yami cost more going into it.
> 
> Funny, last month (3 weekends ago), There was a Chittum Mangrove 18 with a Hatsu. Interesting to display that OB on such a high dollar skiff (pretty much bare bones package for $65k).
> 
> I'm in the process of re-powering and looking at both these 2 OB's (Yami F70 and Zuke 60a). So this thread, along with the other one, is very interesting. Tho I'd love a Zuke 90 (my boat can handle it), the weight issue is the deal breaker for me on that one. Plus I live within 20mins of 10 different boat ramps, each with it's own body of water to fish. So I don't have to make extremely long runs. But when I fish other areas outside my home waters, fuel economy plays a big role (Glades/Florida Bay for instance).
> 
> My other considerations are, I love how the Zukes don't clunk going in and out of gear. I have a few fishing situations where they makes a difference to fish being put on notice or not. But I haven't witness them side-by-side, but I hear tell the F70 is quieter.
> 
> Is there any rumor where Zuke is coming out with a 70hp model of their 60a? Or a 90hp version of either one that is in the 250lb+/- range?
> 
> Also, I have a tall poling platform, so cowling height is not an issue, even for a 90 on a JP.


Hey @Backwater 

The Mangrove 18 was built around the Tohatsu 50/60 at 209/219 lbs respectively. The philosophy of using lightest OB on the Mangrove is tantamount to the original Whiprays paired with a Merc 25. The Tohatsu 50/60 also comes with a 15 in shaft which fits the 2 degree boats very well.

I’ve had 4 boats with Tohatsu 50s and no issues. I can say the last 2 years 2018/2019, they seem to be quieter. I’m running a boat with a F70 & experienced some problems. (So far Yamaha has responded very well warranty and service wise). I tested a Mangrove 18 w/ Tohatsu 50 next to my Snake Bight 18 with a F70. Both 12 degree full carbon builds. In that test, the Tohatsu 50 boat nearly kept up with the F70 in the top end... but the Tohatsu was definitely “torquier” and “punchier” on the low end and out of the of the hole. 

I would say the F70 is quieter and smoother. But it’s a lot heavier to push around than the Tohatsu. That’s not just on the pole, but also when I’m pushing the boats around on the beach etc.


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah

Backwater said:


> From what I know and what I've experienced, Yamaha has the best corrosion resistance. I'm hoping Zuke has improved with that. Also though Yamaha is more going in, they hold their over value better, so you get more going out (selling). So cost of actual ownership over the term of ownership, should also be considered. It's almost a wash between the 2 motors (Zuke vs Yami) as far as cost of ownership, except the fact that the Yami cost more going into it.
> 
> Funny, last month (3 weekends ago), There was a Chittum Mangrove 18 with a Hatsu. Interesting to display that OB on such a high dollar skiff (pretty much bare bones package for $65k).
> 
> I'm in the process of re-powering and looking at both these 2 OB's (Yami F70 and Zuke 60a). So this thread, along with the other one, is very interesting. Tho I'd love a Zuke 90 (my boat can handle it), the weight issue is the deal breaker for me on that one. Plus I live within 20mins of 10 different boat ramps, each with it's own body of water to fish. So I don't have to make extremely long runs. But when I fish other areas outside my home waters, fuel economy plays a big role (Glades/Florida Bay for instance).
> 
> My other considerations are, I love how the Zukes don't clunk going in and out of gear. I have a few fishing situations where they makes a difference to fish being put on notice or not. But I haven't witness them side-by-side, but I hear tell the F70 is quieter.
> 
> Is there any rumor where Zuke is coming out with a 70hp model of their 60a? Or a 90hp version of either one that is in the 250lb+/- range?
> 
> Also, I have a tall poling platform, so cowling height is not an issue, even for a 90 on a JP.


I like the final drive gear ratios on the Suzuki, over the Tohatsu. Not saying the Tohatsu isn't a good motor as well. However, I just water tested the new Floyd 10wt with a Yamaha F70 a couple weeks ago, and I have to say the F70 pushed that skiff very well! Quiet and smooth too!


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## WylanB

Stevie said:


> Hey @Backwater
> 
> The Mangrove 18 was built around the Tohatsu 50/60 at 209/219 lbs respectively. The philosophy of using lightest OB on the Mangrove is tantamount to the original Whiprays paired with a Merc 25. The Tohatsu 50/60 also comes with a 15 in shaft which fits the 2 degree boats very well.
> 
> I’ve had 4 boats with Tohatsu 50s and no issues. I can say the last 2 years 2018/2019, they seem to be quieter. I’m running a boat with a F70 & experienced some problems. (So far Yamaha has responded very well warranty and service wise). I tested a Mangrove 18 w/ Tohatsu 50 next to my Snake Bight 18 with a F70. Both 12 degree full carbon builds. In that test, the Tohatsu 50 boat nearly kept up with the F70 in the top end... but the Tohatsu was definitely “torquier” and “punchier” on the low end and out of the of the hole.
> 
> I would say the F70 is quieter and smoother. But it’s a lot heavier to push around than the Tohatsu. That’s not just on the pole, but also when I’m pushing the boats around on the beach etc.


Thanks Stevie! This is the exact info I was hoping to receive. I was already leaning towards it, but now I'm pretty sure I'll be going with the Tohatsu 60 on my next skiff build!


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## flyclimber

That Tohat is the best weight to power ratio... just saying


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## Backwater

flyclimber said:


> That Tohat is the best weight to power ratio... just saying


Guess you could solve all your skinny water running issues with the Jet Drive version of that engine, though you loose HP because of the inefficiency of the jet drive unit. But imagine running in a few inches. Lol 

I wonder if I can strap one onto a giant SUP (18' x 6')?


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## flyclimber

Backwater said:


> Guess you could solve all your skinny water running issues with the Jet Drive version of that engine, though you loose HP because of the inefficiency of the jet drive unit. But imagine running in a few inches. Lol
> 
> I wonder if I can strap one onto a giant SUP (18' x 6')?


I also have a BOTE Ahab... For testing purposes of course


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## No Bait / Lures Only

jonterr said:


> I didn’t take any of that into consideration!
> The only thing I considered is my NEW f70 slung a rod, and I’ll never have another one!!!


Woah!


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## No Bait / Lures Only

jonterr said:


> I didn’t take any of that into consideration!
> The only thing I considered is my NEW f70 slung a rod, and I’ll never have another one!!!


Was the f70la out of warranty?


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## Guest

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Woah!





No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Was the f70la out of warranty?


Calm down sir!


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## jonterr

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Was the f70la out of warranty?


No
Only 6 months old


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## No Bait / Lures Only

jonterr said:


> No
> Only 6 months old


Yamaha repaired the engine?


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## jonterr

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Yamaha repaired the engine?


I sold the boat back to the dealer, Yamaha put a new power head on


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## jonterr

What pissed me off was


jonterr said:


> I sold the boat back to the dealer, Yamaha put a new power head on


 the dealer I bought the boat from was a Suzuki dealer, but I wanted the “best” so I paid $1200 extra for f70
I was pissed at me so I lost my ass and I’ll never buy a boat with an f70 again!
Just me being me


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## Backwater

jonterr said:


> What pissed me off was
> 
> the dealer I bought the boat from was a Suzuki dealer, but I wanted the “best” so I paid $1200 extra for f70
> I was pissed at me so I lost my ass and I’ll never buy a boat with an f70 again!
> Just me being me


Ok Jon, we got that.


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## jonterr

Backwater said:


> Ok Jon, we got that.


Meaning what?


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## Backwater

jonterr said:


> Meaning what?


You've been well heard on the subject. You had a bad experience. Well noted.


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## g8rfly

Isn't anyone going to mention that the yamaha doesn't come in white!? I mean come on we all care more about how sexy the skiff is vs. performance, right!?


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## Backwater

g8rfly said:


> Isn't anyone going to mention that the yamaha doesn't come in white!? I mean come on we all care more about how sexy the skiff is vs. performance, right!?


Yeah that is another thing for me and what I'm doing with an ocean side skiff on the beaches, where I want it to blend into the background (sky blue hull, no black or brightwork whatsoever, white outboard, etc.) and so white was what I was leaning towards this time around. I've seen white Yamahas, but only in the bigger OB's but when I asked a Yami dealer, they said white is only available the larger 250+ outboards. So that is also one of the factors leaning me back to the Zuke.


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## jonterr

Backwater said:


> You've been well heard on the subject. You had a bad experience. Well noted.


Somebody asked a question
I answered!
I’ll do it every time
Thanks for your concern


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## Backwater

jonterr said:


> Somebody asked a question
> I answered!
> I’ll do it every time
> Thanks for your concern


Ok then.


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## jay.bush1434

There is a lots we can compare between the different motors we put on our skiffs. There are so many variables it is questionable if we would get a truly accurate comparisons. Even if you have the same skiff, the different outboards will be swinging a different prop. Each boat and motor combo will have a prop that it performs the best with. My point is it is very easy to get lost down the rabbit hole chasing details of the F70 v Zuke 60 v Hatsu 60 when in reality, all of those outboards are excellent motors. 
I just when through the whole process trying to choose what motor to put on my new skiff build. I wanted a Tohatsu 60. I have run a lot of boats with the smaller Tohatsu outboards and have always been impressed. However, I have a Zuke on my current boat and am very impressed with performance and reliability. I also have good service shops, if needed, very close by for both. So for me it came down to the Zuke 60 being a couple thousand less than the Tohatsu.


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## g8rfly

Backwater said:


> Yeah that is another thing for me and what I'm doing with an ocean side skiff on the beaches, where I want it to blend in the background (sky blue hull, no black or brightwork whatsoever, white outboard, etc.) and so white was what I was leaning towards this time around. I've seen white Yamahas, but only in the bigger OB's but when I asked a Yami dealer, they said it's only available the larger 250+ outboards. So that is also one of the factors leaning me back to the Zuke.


agree. Same here. I have an 08 df50 on the panga now, and I would love the extra hp just having a hard time allocating the cash for a motor that has been treating me quite well.


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## jay.bush1434

Oh, one more thing. If you really want to save some weight off your skiff, lose the weight from your own fatness. I promised myself to lose 10 lbs by the time I take delivery of my new skiff in June.


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## POCtied

This ^^^ gotta love fat guys stressing over cf this, lithium that, try skipping the drive through line and the 32oz sug’r water.

I love the F70, think it’s a great motor, just doesn’t fit my current setup and location


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## devrep

Yamaha has had major corrosion issues with their large outboards, has not admitted it and has screwed over a lot of people on this issue. there is no evidence that they have changed anything to correct the problem. just conjecture from Yamaha fans (I was a fan until they gave up on 2 strokes in the USA).


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## Half Shell

devrep said:


> Yamaha has had major corrosion issues with their large outboards, has not admitted it and has screwed over a lot of people on this issue. there is no evidence that they have changed anything to correct the problem. just conjecture from Yamaha fans (I was a fan until they gave up on 2 strokes in the USA).


Corrosion protection and longtime relaibilty is my #1 priority when it comes to outboards. The problem is I don't have any data or evidence that one is better than the other. I wish there was concrete evidence or something we could specify such as difference in materials or design that would indicate one motor being superior to another in this regard but I have yet to find it.

Therefore, absent of this information I guess I'm making weight vs HP my main criteria.


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## TwitchAO

I have no loyalty to any of the brands. Currently have a 2000 Yamaha 115 on an action craft with 600hrs. runs great an have had 0 issues in 20 years. I had a suzuki 60 on a bt mosquito for 3 years and it was flawless. I will say if you did not treat all the bolts under the cal on the Yamaha they will corrode. Had no corrosion issues on my Zuke but obviously owned it not as long. No matter the motor I always pull the call twice a year and treat everything with corrosion X. I will say its worth noting that the lower unit gear is much better on Zuke 60 than the Yamaha F70 for turning bigger props that are better for hole shot without sacrificing as much top end. This really shines with sponson boats. The Zuke also comes with 6 years of warranty but honestly i do not know how good it is never having to use it. Most customer service with big brands is going down hill imo.


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## Backwater

jay.bush1434 said:


> So for me it came down to the Zuke 60 being a couple thousand less than the Tohatsu.


 Really, so you are saying the Tohatsu 60 is the same price as a F70? I also seen that there are 2 different models of the 60 Tohatsu, the bigger one, which weighs close to the F70 and the smaller one that weighs nearly the same in a 20" shaft version as the Zuke 60. So which one is priced $2k more that the Zuke 60?

With that, does anyone have pricing comparison data on all 3 (or 4) models?


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## g8rfly

I have only priced the Suzuki. Best price I've found was just under 6k installed, but it was a special at the time.


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## Backwater

jay.bush1434 said:


> Oh, one more thing. If you really want to save some weight off your skiff, lose the weight from your own fatness. I promised myself to lose 10 lbs by the time I take delivery of my new skiff in June.





POCtied said:


> This ^^^ gotta love fat guys stressing over cf this, lithium that, try skipping the drive through line and the 32oz sug’r water.


LOL.....

Oh you guys are so true with that!!! 
























Me in the 1st pic back-in-the-day where I went to the buffets with all the big boys, almost daily, for a few years straight. Went up to 266lbs at my heaviest. Dah Beast!!! Heck, I made a 20ft skiff tilt on the PP! When I saw that 1st pic, I said to myself (I do talk to myself sometimes! Lol) _"I'm done with being the fat boy!"_ LOL... 2nd pic was 1 year later at a trim 210lbs. So I lost 56lbs. That's a freakin Bob's jack plate I lost! LOL..... Today (3rd pic), I'm still keeping the weight off (no buffets or fast food drive thru) and now I'm adding a Bob's jack plate to my lil skiff! LOL...  

Hummm.... maybe if I lose more weight, I can get that 90! 









NOTE; Sorry boys, those are pics from back-in-the-day when we didn't know any better holding fish straight up. I don't do that anymore.


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## jsnipes

Resurrecting this thread...

Does anyone have a weight on the tohatsu 60hp 20"? Seems it's not 219 but I can't find it anywhere

Edit: this tohatsu website still claims 217lbs for the 20"
https://www.tohatsu.com/marine/int/outboards/mfs60awhite.html


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## Jason M

Edit: I just looked in my manual for the MFS 60A and it said 217


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## Backwater

-+-


Half Shell said:


> Corrosion protection and longtime relaibilty is my #1 priority when it comes to outboards. The problem is I don't have any data or evidence that one is better than the other. I wish there was concrete evidence or something we could specify such as difference in materials or design that would indicate one motor being superior to another in this regard but I have yet to find it.
> 
> Therefore, absent of this information I guess I'm making weight vs HP my main criteria.


My local OB warranty repair guy says he see's more Zukes with corrosion issues than Yamahas, as well as more Zukes in the Shops as compared to Yami's. But that isn't even concrete since I hear Zuke has improved their corrosion resistance about 2.5yrs ago in models moving forward. So....idk.

I would love to see some sort of unbiased corrosion shootout between the top 5 OB mfg's.

Was at the Tampa Boat show last weekend and ran into a Tohatsu rep/dealer where he had a 60 Hatzu hanging on a display. The standard warranty for them was 5yrs and no doubt that is impressive. Plus I found out his shop is within a 25min drive for me, so that is good. I asked about gauge package and mounting and he said mounting was free and total was around $6700-$6800. What I really liked was how simple it was under the cover and seemed very easy to work on anything, change out fuel filter, etc. He also says dry weight on the 20" shaft was 218lbs. So pretty light, but 11lbs is not really a deal breaker for me either way, but nice to have that weight back to offset things like having a Bob's Jack Plate vs an Atlas Microjacker (weight vs reliability, for another discussion).

But what is interesting was the displacement on both, Suzuki 60A at 941cc vs Tohatzu MFS60 866cc and if you look at the Tohatsu MFT60 weighing in at 243lbs (10lbs lighter than an Yami F70), the displacement is 998cc (where the F70 is at 1000cc or 1 liter). Point being, the Zuke has more displacement which to me translate to more power/torque vs Hatsu MFS60. So I guess Hatsu is doing torque with gearing? But when you look at lower unit gearing, the Suzuki has 2.27:1 vs Tohatzu's MFS60 @ 2.08:1 and almost the same for the heavier MFT60 (with the larger displacement) @ 2.07:1. So idk!



https://www.tohatsu.com/marine/na/outboards/mfs60a.html

https://www.tohatsu.com/marine/na/outboards/60_4st.html

http://www.suzukimarine.com/Product Lines/Outboard Motors/Products/DF60/2012/DF60A.aspx


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## Str8-Six

Comparing props: The F70 offers a 13” prop vs 11.75” on Suk 60. From what I remember the prop selection back three years ago when I owned a Suke 60 was pretty slim. Prop options should be considered when comparing prices as it can become quite costly finding the right prop for your skiff.

Yammy is a little quieter. Also the quick flush connection is a PIA on the Suzuki. Loved my Suke and had no issues but wanted to mention those gripes as well.


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## Jason M

Backwater said:


> -+-
> 
> My local OB warranty repair guy says he see's more Zukes with corrosion issues than Yamahas, as well as more Zukes in the Shops as compared to Yami's. But that isn't even concrete since I hear Zuke has improved their corrosion resistance about 2.5yrs ago in models moving forward. So....idk.
> 
> I would love to see some sort of unbiased corrosion shootout between the top 5 OB mfg's.
> 
> Was at the Tampa Boat show last weekend and ran into a Tohatsu rep/dealer where he had a 60 Hatzu hanging on a display. The standard warranty for them was 5yrs and no doubt that is impressive. Plus I found out his shop is within a 25min drive for me, so that is good. I asked about gauge package and mounting and he said mounting was free and total was around $6700-$6800. What I really liked was how simple it was under the cover and seemed very easy to work on anything, change out fuel filter, etc. He also says dry weight on the 20" shaft was 218lbs. So pretty light, but 11lbs is not really a deal breaker for me either way, but nice to have that weight back to offset things like having a Bob's Jack Plate vs an Atlas Microjacker (weight vs reliability, for another discussion).
> 
> But what is interesting was the displacement on both, Suzuki 60A at 941cc vs Tohatzu MFS60 866cc and if you look at the Tohatsu MFT60 weighing in at 243lbs (10lbs lighter than an Yami F70), the displacement is 998cc (where the F70 is at 1000cc or 1 liter). Point being, the Zuke has more displacement which to me translate to more power/torque vs Hatsu MFS60. So I guess Hatsu is doing torque with gearing? But when you look at lower unit gearing, the Suzuki has 2.27:1 vs Tohatzu's MFS60 @ 2.08:1 and almost the same for the heavier MFT60 (with the larger displacement) @ 2.07:1. So idk!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.tohatsu.com/marine/na/outboards/mfs60a.html
> 
> https://www.tohatsu.com/marine/na/outboards/60_4st.html
> 
> http://www.suzukimarine.com/Product Lines/Outboard Motors/Products/DF60/2012/DF60A.aspx


Hello backwater, 

I live in Tampa also and run the Tomatsu. Who is the local dealer you spoke with?


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## Backwater

Jason M said:


> Hello backwater,
> 
> I live in Tampa also and run the Tomatsu. Who is the local dealer you spoke with?


Northeast Marine
1801 28th St. N.
St Pete, FL 33713
727-327-7341
www.northeastmarine.net

I was speaking to the owner, Curtis Piper. Very nice guy.


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## Backwater

Str8-Six said:


> Comparing props: The F70 offers a 13” prop vs 11.75” on Suk 60. From what I remember the prop selection back three years ago when I owned a Suke 60 was pretty slim. Prop options should be considered when comparing prices as it can become quite costly finding the right prop for your skiff.
> 
> Yammy is a little quieter. Also the quick flush connection is a PIA on the Suzuki. Loved my Suke and had no issues but wanted to mention those gripes as well.


How about fuel economy between the 2 OB's in real world conditions. Also, you said the Yami is quieter. What about shifting in and out of gear? Which one is smoother doing that and which one clunks into gear harder and louder than the other?


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## Backwater

Another interesting accessory about some of these outboards is Simrad supports a connect to Merc and Suzuki (on the Go series anyway) where you have to pay $500 to direct connect Tohatsu and Yamaha. Anyone has any feedback on that subject, especially with the NSS series of Simrad?


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## Jason M

Backwater said:


> How about fuel economy between the 2 OB's in real world conditions. Also, you said the Yami is quieter. What about shifting in and out of gear? Which one is smoother doing that and which one clunks into gear harder and louder than the other?


Here is what I can confirm with a test I did in mid April in Tampa Bay. I ran my Chittum with the Tohatsu 60 from Davis Island to Anna Maria and back. That was a 62 mile run line estimation on Google maps. I used 8.1 gallons of fuel. I started with a full tank and filled it after.


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## Backwater

Jason M said:


> Here is what I can confirm with a test I did in mid April in Tampa Bay. I ran my Chittum with the Tohatsu 60 from Davis Island to Anna Maria and back. That was a 62 mile run line estimation on Google maps. I used 8.1 gallons of fuel. I started with a full tank and filled it after.


That is 7.65 miles/gal. Too many variables. Was the google map est on your google map mobile app or from your desktop after the trip. What Chittum, what RPM, what was the seas, weight of rig full of fuel including you and whomever else was going along, what prop (pitch, # of blades and dia), was it a constant speed, what was the avg mph, etc.?

I'd like to see what Hal used (if he did it or not) if he was doing a side-by-side comparison of all OB's in that 60hp (including the F70 and the new 60 race merc) and get real side by side numbers, warranty comparison and pricing.

Maybe Stevie can chime in and see if Hal can do such a test or see if he already had done it. It'd be cool to see test results of that on one of his middle of the road skiffs (not the lightest and not the biggest one they make, but average), including single guy w/1/2 tank of fuel and limited gear in clam weather and seas, and, the same skiff with real world fishing situation, weather kicked up, heavy chop on the bay, with 2 guys loaded down with a full tank, baitwell full, all geared up with cooler/ ice, TM, gear and etc., doing that with the top 5 outboards in a sort of "Shootout" of outboards in real world performance with mid grade SS props (like Powertech or similar) spec'ed and tuned for each outboard (not stock props) and then provide recommended specs for those props.


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## Str8-Six

Backwater said:


> How about fuel economy between the 2 OB's in real world conditions. Also, you said the Yami is quieter. What about shifting in and out of gear? Which one is smoother doing that and which one clunks into gear harder and louder than the other?


The Suk felt like it had more torque getting on plane but also louder than the Yami. In and out of gear probably goes to Yami but pretty close. Not sure on mpg. Calculated it once around 9/10 mpg


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## Jason M

Backwater said:


> That is 7.65 miles/gal. Too many variables. Was the google map est on your google map mobile app or from your desktop after the trip. What Chittum, what RPM, what was the seas, weight of rig full of fuel including you and whomever else was going along, what prop (pitch, # of blades and dia), was it a constant speed, what was the avg mph, etc.?
> 
> I'd like to see what Hal used (if he did it or not) if he was doing a side-by-side comparison of all OB's in that 60hp (including the F70 and the new 60 race merc) and get real side by side numbers, warranty comparison and pricing.
> 
> Maybe Stevie can chime in and see if Hal can do such a test or see if he already had done it. It'd be cool to see test results of that on one of his middle of the road skiffs (not the lightest and not the biggest one they make, but average), including single guy w/1/2 tank of fuel and limited gear in clam weather and seas, and, the same skiff with real world fishing situation, weather kicked up, heavy chop on the bay, with 2 guys loaded down with a full tank, baitwell full, all geared up with cooler/ ice, TM, gear and etc., doing that with the top 5 outboards in a sort of "Shootout" of outboards in real world performance with mid grade SS props (like Powertech or similar) spec'ed and tuned for each outboard (not stock props) and then provide recommended specs for those props.


Backwater,

I am running the Mangrove Edition 50/50 carbon with a trolling motor and the 24v lithium battery on the bow, 13 gallon gas tank, no live well. This was a regular trip with me and another guy, average weight. It was not great weather as I recall as we wore jackets. I would guess we averaged 27 mph on the way back into the north wind. It was not smooth water that day.

Having said that. I do not know the specs of the prop. I will look in my docs. The boat I bought was the demo and George used that boat and motor to test props. When I have been solo on calm seas I have had it 42 mph on the GPS. I am sure I could squeeze a couple more MPH if I took out the trolling motor and battery.

My setup excels once you get over 29/30 mph and you can feel the step in the hull really engage. I am on the east side of Tampa if someone wants a ride. You just have to take turns poling the boat!

Edit: The mileage estimate was using Google maps on the desktop and connecting the dots for the trip. I expect the actual mileage would be a few miles more. The stats on the Simrad say the actual MPG is more like 8.3.
Jason


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## NealXB2003

Backwater said:


> How about fuel economy between the 2 OB's in real world conditions. Also, you said the Yami is quieter. What about shifting in and out of gear? Which one is smoother doing that and which one clunks into gear harder and louder than the other?


I thought my f70 was loud going in and out of gear, until I swapped over to a flo torq iii hub. Silent now.


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## Stevie

Backwater said:


> That is 7.65 miles/gal. Too many variables. Was the google map est on your google map mobile app or from your desktop after the trip. What Chittum, what RPM, what was the seas, weight of rig full of fuel including you and whomever else was going along, what prop (pitch, # of blades and dia), was it a constant speed, what was the avg mph, etc.?
> 
> I'd like to see what Hal used (if he did it or not) if he was doing a side-by-side comparison of all OB's in that 60hp (including the F70 and the new 60 race merc) and get real side by side numbers, warranty comparison and pricing.
> 
> Maybe Stevie can chime in and see if Hal can do such a test or see if he already had done it. It'd be cool to see test results of that on one of his middle of the road skiffs (not the lightest and not the biggest one they make, but average), including single guy w/1/2 tank of fuel and limited gear in clam weather and seas, and, the same skiff with real world fishing situation, weather kicked up, heavy chop on the bay, with 2 guys loaded down with a full tank, baitwell full, all geared up with cooler/ ice, TM, gear and etc., doing that with the top 5 outboards in a sort of "Shootout" of outboards in real world performance with mid grade SS props (like Powertech or similar) spec'ed and tuned for each outboard (not stock props) and then provide recommended specs for those props.


My understanding of Chittum’s preference for Tohatsu 50/60:

1- Best weight to power ratio
2- Optional short shaft fits the 2 degree boats best. 
3- Tohatsu’s gear case is more robust than Suzuki 60
4- Tohatsu 50/60 actually turns a larger diameter prop than the Suzuki 60

Chittum has 2 separate build classes for the Tohatsu 60 - Mangrove, and F70 - Snake Bight. The F70 Snake Bight boats probably reach 1-2 mph faster than the lighter Mangroves.


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## Backwater

NealXB2003 said:


> I thought my f70 was loud going in and out of gear, until I swapped over to a flo torq iii hub. Silent now.


Huh....Interesting.


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## Backwater

Stevie said:


> My understanding of Chittum’s preference for Tohatsu 50/60:
> 
> 1- Best weight to power ratio
> 2- Optional short shaft fits the 2 degree boats best.
> 3- Tohatsu’s gear case is more robust than Suzuki 60
> 4- Tohatsu 50/60 actually turns a larger diameter prop than the Suzuki 60
> 
> Chittum has 2 separate build classes for the Tohatsu 60 - Mangrove, and F70 - Snake Bight. The F70 Snake Bight boats probably reach 1-2 mph faster than the lighter Mangroves.


Fuel usage? Top end Speed? Low end torque?


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## Stevie

Backwater said:


> Fuel usage? Top end Speed? Low end torque?


Haven’t owned the Tohatsu 60, just the 50. The numbers @Jason M cited for the Mangrove & 60 are accurate. I trialed Jason’s boat when it was demo last year and hit 42 mph running with George Sawley; no TM & a minimal gear/ fuel.

On fuel consumption we have seen 10 mpg on a 90 mile round trip running a Tohatsu 50 on Mangrove in Mexico. Hole shot / low end torque were strong running the Tohatsu 50 in TX. There have been some issues with prop shaft breakage... personally never experienced it.


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## Stevie

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/tohatsu-60-hp-4-stroke-213-pounds.60182/page-2


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