# timeless skiffs to compete with today's class?



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

Hells Bay Waterman


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## scottsflyshop (Oct 2, 2011)

Gheenoe


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

No, skiffs from twenty to thirty years ago can not perform like skiffs from the last 10 years or so. Neither can aircraft, autos, trucks, cell phones, clothes, shoes, fly rods, ...... built now vs thirty years ago.


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## fishnsurf (Jan 10, 2019)

sjrobin said:


> No, skiffs from twenty to thirty years ago can not perform like skiffs from the last 10 years or so. Neither can aircraft, autos, trucks, cell phones, clothes, shoes, fly rods, ...... built now vs thirty years ago.


I don't know man.. my 1992 intrepid 26 gets 2mpg at a 40mph cruise (repowered w 4strokes). My 2002 yukon xl is as dependable and gets better mpg than many newer trucks, and although I dont have a stock in-truck computer screen, I have an iPhone.. which takes care of most all of that. 

For real though, I hear you. What im trying to understand is all electrical systems aside, does a brand new HPX-V really warrant a huge premium over the best of 20 years ago? I'm trying to get into a good all-around skiff without taking a loan. I can completely re-rig a boat myself so I'm not afraid of old systems or even old power. Have the hulls really improved so much to where you cant compete in an older hull? I'm new to the skiff game. In offshore boats, you obviously get more built-in comforts, maybe a stepped hull etc. I still spend plenty of time in the bahamas on a boat almost as old as I am, because it's been cared for and updated correctly. Your thoughts on this are very welcomed, and I'd appreciate an expansion on those thoughts.


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

sjrobin said:


> No, skiffs from twenty to thirty years ago can not perform like skiffs from the last 10 years or so. Neither can aircraft, autos, trucks, cell phones, clothes, shoes, fly rods, ...... built now vs thirty years ago.


I disagree. You have a big gap. 10 years to 30. So I assume 20 years falls in your old category. My new truck does absolutely nothing better than than my first what I consider modern truck. It was a late 90’s F150 with the curved body design. I think it was a better truck. 
My current B2 is 13 years old. Does everything current skiffs do. When both were purchased I think the price paid was easier to swallow.


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Apr 4, 2015)

I would say yes, depending on what you’re looking for. Boats are still governed by the laws of physics, and if you want a boat that’s as light and drafts as shallow as possible, it’s not going to ride great by design.

I think most of the hull improvements have been geared towards being drier while running and quieter while fishing. Sure, materials have improved, but fiberglass and resin isn’t exactly new technology. Heck, people still catch tons of fish from aluminum Jon boats.

The caveat is if you’re looking for a true technical poling skiff, they weren’t really developed until the Whipray IMO. If you’re looking for a smaller flats boat there are some options. The Maverick Mirage, HPX, and Hewes Red/Bonefishers come to mind.

The setup and rigging makes a bigger difference to the “fishability” of a boat than the hull design to me, as long as you can get where you want in relative comfort/safety, but I’m not running from Islamorada to the Glades either.


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## ranno (Apr 7, 2012)

sjrobin said:


> No, skiffs from twenty to thirty years ago can not perform like skiffs from the last 10 years or so. Neither can aircraft, autos, trucks, cell phones, clothes, shoes, fly rods, ...... built now vs thirty years ago.


In most cases newer is better than older, however,my HB 02 waterman was constructed out of Kevlar. I understand that this is no longer a standard feature and extra premium must now be paid for the Kevlar option. My boat weighs less than todays waterman and is arguably just as strong. It's fair to say, depending upon the boat model or company will ultimately determine which way you should lean when making a decision to purchase your next boat.


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## Scott (Aug 24, 2015)

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> I would say yes, depending on what you’re looking for. Boats are still governed by the laws of physics, and if you want a boat that’s as light and drafts as shallow as possible, it’s not going to ride great by design.
> 
> I think most of the hull improvements have been geared towards being drier while running and quieter while fishing. Sure, materials have improved, but fiberglass and resin isn’t exactly new technology. Heck, people still catch tons of fish from aluminum Jon boats.
> 
> ...



I run from Islamorada to the glades all the time. Bought my Redfisher new in 1995 for $22,000. I still have the original Yamaha 115 that runs like new. Would I like to float in 6-7”, yep. Would I like to have the extended range of a four stroke, yep. Am I happy with what I got, way yep. It would be hard to justify plunking down 30 to 50k for those gains. I like the old school. When I see an old pre Johnny Morris Silver King I just about snap my neck getting a look as it passes by on the highway. My old 15’ Wind River Skiff was a 6” boat, but wet and rough on those long runs. There was a refurbished one here in Tavernier on the side of the highway, I think he wanted 27,000 for it. I sold mine in 95 for 4500.


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## fishnsurf (Jan 10, 2019)

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> I would say yes, depending on what you’re looking for. Boats are still governed by the laws of physics, and if you want a boat that’s as light and drafts as shallow as possible, it’s not going to ride great by design.
> 
> I think most of the hull improvements have been geared towards being drier while running and quieter while fishing. Sure, materials have improved, but fiberglass and resin isn’t exactly new technology. Heck, people still catch tons of fish from aluminum Jon boats.
> 
> ...


I've hear the mirages and hp from back in the day poll pretty well, is that not the case? They seem to fit the bill for a skiff that would be oceanside for tarpon and doubling as a flamingo boat.. but I know there's not one perfect boat, even today. 

Also, one thing that I forgot to mention and failed to come up here in convo- was there a seismic shift in how the boats were built when they started hanging fourstrokes off of them? In offshore boats, some repowered boats really went poorly with heavier four strokes. This is starting to come full circle again though. Mercury now makes a 225 four stroke that is significantly lighter than my old 225 yammie two strokes, so now we're far enough along that you can actually go lighter than the comparable two-smoke (at least in the offshore application, my feeling is the the old yamaha 90 two-smoke is lighter than any four stroke at the hp by a long shot)


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

sjrobin said:


> No, skiffs from twenty to thirty years ago can not perform like skiffs from the last 10 years or so. Neither can aircraft, autos, trucks, cell phones, clothes, shoes, fly rods, ...... built now vs thirty years ago.


I disagree. There has not been many advancements in boat designs in decades, just slight tweaks and mods. Newer materials, bigger motors, a strake here, rounded chine here....but hull shapes don't change much.


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Cars, trucks, boats, planes and trains. It’s been done. There will not be any huge advancements. Huge was when they first happened. There will be modifications is all. Jetson mobile I would consider something new. Only thing it spews out is little circles. And it takes you anywhere


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

Exactly, what is fish-ability?

Just enjoy the boat you have.

It worked before it works now.

Less is more...we just do not remember it like we should, me included.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

So my 18.2 Off Shore Mirage my be a classic since it has a splashed Master Angler hull


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Apr 4, 2015)

topnative2 said:


> Exactly, what is fish-ability?
> 
> Just enjoy the boat you have.
> 
> ...


This is just my definition of it, so take it for what it’s worth...

“Fishability” is how well suited or efficient your boat is for the style of fishing you do. Basically, how much it gets out of the way and let’s you focus on catching fish rather than screwing around with controlling your boat, tripping over stuff, or snagging your fly line. 

We work a lot of small oyster bars up here and have to deal with heavy winds and strong tides. A boat with a pull start outboard and regular anchor isn’t great for hitting an area for a few minutes and moving along. A trolling motor and power pole are extremely useful

If I only fly fished shallow flats and had a buddy to pole me around, the same trolling motor and power pole would be in the way a lot of the time and add unnecessary weight. 

You just have to figure out what helps you fish as effortlessly as possible.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

The waterman is around 20 years old and it's still one of the best skinny water poling skiffs out there.


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> This is just my definition of it, so take it for what it’s worth...
> 
> “Fishability” is how well suited or efficient your boat is for the style of fishing you do. Basically, how much it gets out of the way and let’s you focus on catching fish rather than screwing around with controlling your boat, tripping over stuff, or snagging your fly line.
> 
> ...


exactly.....


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

fishnsurf said:


> I've hear the mirages and hp from back in the day poll pretty well, is that not the case? They seem to fit the bill for a skiff that would be oceanside for tarpon and doubling as a flamingo boat.. but I know there's not one perfect boat, even today.
> 
> Also, one thing that I forgot to mention and failed to come up here in convo- was there a seismic shift in how the boats were built when they started hanging fourstrokes off of them? In offshore boats, some repowered boats really went poorly with heavier four strokes. This is starting to come full circle again though. Mercury now makes a 225 four stroke that is significantly lighter than my old 225 yammie two strokes, so now we're far enough along that you can actually go lighter than the comparable two-smoke (at least in the offshore application, my feeling is the the old yamaha 90 two-smoke is lighter than any four stroke at the hp by a long shot)


this is why HB put sponsons on the whipray and waterman, to offset the 4 stroke flab.


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

devrep said:


> this is why HB put sponsons on the whipray and waterman, to offset the 4 stroke flab.


Chris Morejohn said the sponsons were added so the engine could be tucked in closer making it easier to be used as a tender on yachts and shorter for garages.

I still think the 17.8 Whipray and 18 Waterman are the sexiest hulls out there.


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

I'd argue my 31 year old mangrove 17 fits the bill.


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

Willy Roberts and Hewes, I think, are the oldest still being built


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## Weck68w (May 7, 2013)

I own a 91 silver king and personally love the boat. It does everything I want it to do fairly well. It’s certainly not a sub six inch draft skiff.... maybe 10/11 if you are weighted right, but you figure out how to make it work. I got the boat for tarpon fishing and it does that very well. It’s probably one of the most stable sixteen foot skiffs I have ever been on and will eat up some afternoon sea breeze chop. That being said I have been on a Vantage a few times and they are pretty impressive rigs. I think as long as you go into buying an older skiff knowing that it will be a bit heavier, won’t perform right with a heavy four stroke(I guess that’s debatable), and know that there will be general maintenance things to upgrade/keep up with you can save a big chunk of change. I won’t sit hear and tell you I wouldn’t love to have a new hpx18, Marquesa, or Vantage but I bought my Silver King five years ago for 11k and it’s been a great boat.


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

Weck68w said:


> I own a 91 silver king and personally love the boat. It does everything I want it to do fairly well. It’s certainly not a sub six inch draft skiff.... maybe 10/11 if you are weighted right, but you figure out how to make it work. I got the boat for tarpon fishing and it does that very well. It’s probably one of the most stable sixteen foot skiffs I have ever been on and will eat up some afternoon sea breeze chop. That being said I have been on a Vantage a few times and they are pretty impressive rigs. I think as long as you go into buying an older skiff knowing that it will be a bit heavier, won’t perform right with a heavy four stroke(I guess that’s debatable), and know that there will be general maintenance things to upgrade/keep up with you can save a big chunk of change. I won’t sit hear and tell you I wouldn’t love to have a new hpx18, Marquesa, or Vantage but I bought my Silver King five years ago for 11k and it’s been a great boat.


before I stumbled upon my boat, an early 90s silver king was high on my list.

if I get around to having my boat completely refinished, not sure I'll ever sell it.


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## Weck68w (May 7, 2013)

321nole said:


> before I stumbled upon my boat, an early 90s silver king was high on my list.
> 
> if I get around to having my boat completely refinished, not sure I'll ever sell it.


There are two guys in my area that run mangroves and I’m always impressed when I see them on the water. From what I hear Bobby Era was quite the colorful personality too. I wouldn’t get rid of it either, there is a lot of history and cool stories to go along with that skiff. Word around the campfire is that the original molds were sold a few years back with possible plans of building a few. I can’t say that is fact though.


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## zthomas (Jan 14, 2014)

Can't believe no one has mentioned a 17T!


j/k, although it does what I need it to do pretty well


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

sjrobin said:


> I will say none of the old school skiffs, including old HB's, can perform like the heavier bare bones HB Whipray or Pro new skiffs with four stroke engines, especially in heavy bay chop.


What do you attribute this to? Increased weight providing a better ride? Smoother powerband of modern engine? Some other advantage that comes from design changes?


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

bryson said:


> What do you attribute this to? Increased weight providing a better ride? Smoother powerband of modern engine? Some other advantage that comes from design changes?


Yes, all of the above. The improved ride could just be weight and/or slight changes in the hull mold, bulkheads, etc. Range and quietness on the four cycles is a plus plus that is sometimes overlooked.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

The Silver King is a flats boat...not a skiff. Same as the older Mako 181 Flats and Hewes Redfishers from the early 90s. Those boats were all contemporaries of each other. 

They're fantastic flats boats but their hull weight, higher draft numbers, and hull slap inducing reverse chine (at least on the 181) remove them from the "skiff" conversation IMHO...


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## Stevie (Jun 27, 2017)

@fishnsurf - As far as "fishability" the list you mention Mirage 1 & 2, Silver King and Dolphin SS all have great layouts and fish well. If I were your age on a budget, and just a weekend warrior, I would seek any of those, favoring Mirages and SS. In my understanding Maverick did not begin coring hulls until the HPX, which was in response to HB's building techniques... In my experience the Mirage 1 has a 900-1000 pound unrigged hull.. also, those old boats run ok and fish just fine despite leaks in the hull cap and through hull plugs (baitwells, cockpit drains, etc.).

IMO modern build techniques have absolutely improved hull weight, ease of poling, draft, level balance with today’s 4 strokes, fuel efficiency... even if the hull design and skiff layout have not changed much. Spray rails provide a dry ride, offering an angler my age with more comfort to reach places they wouldn’t otherwise. Contrary to the opinions of many on this forum, I have found that light hulls ride very well.


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

Weck68w said:


> There are two guys in my area that run mangroves and I’m always impressed when I see them on the water. From what I hear Bobby Era was quite the colorful personality too. I wouldn’t get rid of it either, there is a lot of history and cool stories to go along with that skiff. Word around the campfire is that the original molds were sold a few years back with possible plans of building a few. I can’t say that is fact though.


coincidentally, I stumbled upon two guys on instagram about a week ago running mangroves. so far, including my own, I've confirmed 4 still in working condition/being fished. I was fortunate enough to get in contact with chris morejohn for a little more history on the boats and had the editor at florida sportsman send me an old article that featured one as well. I've also heard the rumor the molds were purchased, eager to see if something pops up


back on topic, agree with crboggs and would include my boat in the flats boat category more so than skiff. however, I've found myself floating in some pretty thin water, just never had the means to stop and measure it lol


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## Cut Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

I might get a flogging for this but here it goes !!!

I think we are getting farther away from where we could be in terms of boat design and limits.
The obvious rage now is vacuum bagged resin infused composite carbon skiffs designed by a computer. These boats are built with the latest composite technology and are lighter, faster etc than ever before.

Here's the deal, Its a damn near proven fact that wood boats ride better and are more silent as no foam boat absorbs sound like wood. Many tournament winning million dollar sport fish teams will ONLY fish out of cold mold wood boat for a reason.
The problem is wood boats are expensive, have alot of upkeep etc.

I'm a firm believer that a high performance wood/fiberglass/carbon boat built with the same degree of engineering and techniques could OUTPERFORM its foam cored sister.

Would it live longer?
No

But with technical polling skiffs reaching $70,$80k, someone will build a boat that can outperform the best we have to offer now. And i believe it will be wood cored. 
Again, it wont last forever but with the money that is getting spent to achieve "perfection" in this market, it's only a matter of time till the money doesn't play a factor, and people looking for the highest performance possible will learn to love wood again 
Flame on!


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## fishnsurf (Jan 10, 2019)

I guess draft won't be as shallow as a new chittum, the boat might need some tweaking if you hang a fourstroke, and hull slap reducing design was in it's infancy in the 90s. So yes, I guess my conclusion here is that if you only fish for high tide reds in the grass in jacksonville and need 4 inch draft, an old boat might not be the call. If you want a boat to run around flamingo and fish oceanside tarpon too, an old boat could fit the bill.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Having owned a 2001 17.8 with no floor, and now a 2017 waterman I will comment. The 2017 is marginally heavier but it's not as noticable on the pole as you would think. There is a slight feeling of extra weight when poling on the initial push but once you are gliding along it's virtually the same. What is noticable is the ride. The 2017 feels much more solid in chop, less vibration and less noise. Also the hatch configuration and the liners is a nice upgrade. Given the choice of the two I would choose the newer hull.


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## hunterbrown (Feb 17, 2014)

321nole said:


> I'd argue my 31 year old mangrove 17 fits the bill.





321nole said:


> coincidentally, I stumbled upon two guys on instagram about a week ago running mangroves. so far, including my own, I've confirmed 4 still in working condition/being fished. I was fortunate enough to get in contact with chris morejohn for a little more history on the boats and had the editor at florida sportsman send me an old article that featured one as well. I've also heard the rumor the molds were purchased, eager to see if something pops up
> 
> 
> back on topic, agree with crboggs and would include my boat in the flats boat category more so than skiff. however, I've found myself floating in some pretty thin water, just never had the means to stop and measure it lol


You beat me to it here, I'd put my '87 mangrove against most skiffs being built now. I can tell you there are many more than four mangroves on the water today.


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

hunterbrown said:


> You beat me to it here, I'd put my '87 mangrove against most skiffs being built now. I can tell you there are many more than four mangroves on the water today.


that's pretty awesome to hear considering everything I've learned to date seems to indicate that only 17-18 of the boats were ever built. I actually got a message from another member here not long ago detailing a few of the other owners still running mangrove's, based on your location I suspect you were included on the list. 

I absolutely love the boat and its taken everything I've thrown at it in stride, from poling in the IRL, to days at the sand bar and spearfishing on the backside of the reef near looe key


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2019)

Cut Runner said:


> I might get a flogging for this but here it goes !!!
> 
> I think we are getting farther away from where we could be in terms of boat design and limits.
> The obvious rage now is vacuum bagged resin infused composite carbon skiffs designed by a computer. These boats are built with the latest composite technology and are lighter, faster etc than ever before.
> ...


While I don’t do wood, I ain’t flamin ya because you sir... are right!


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

Net 30 said:


> Chris Morejohn said the sponsons were added so the engine could be tucked in closer making it easier to be used as a tender on yachts and shorter for garages.
> 
> I still think the 17.8 Whipray and 18 Waterman are the sexiest hulls out there.


how does adding 2 feet of sponson make the boat fit better in a garage?


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Apr 4, 2015)

devrep said:


> how does adding 2 feet of sponson make the boat fit better in a garage?


It allows an 18’ boat to fit where a 16’ boat would otherwise. Adding sponsons onto an existing hull doesn’t make it fit better, but it does allow you to lengthen an existing hull and still fit where most people store them.


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Apr 4, 2015)

Cut Runner said:


> I might get a flogging for this but here it goes !!!
> 
> I think we are getting farther away from where we could be in terms of boat design and limits.
> The obvious rage now is vacuum bagged resin infused composite carbon skiffs designed by a computer. These boats are built with the latest composite technology and are lighter, faster etc than ever before.
> ...


I agree. I’m currently building a plywood/ epoxy skiff, but a lot of people unfamiliar with boats laugh at the idea of a “wooden boat.” Besides the high end sport fishers and yachts, companies like Albury built very high quality wooden boats for decades, and people have crossed oceans on wooden boats for centuries.

Most of us know the differences between epoxy and polyester resins, and how the former can prevent wood rot completely, but I found it interesting that boats run in saltwater regularly won’t rot, even if they have a leak. Saltwater is a preservative, wooden boats that rot do it when sitting in yards.

The problem with a new high end wood skiff would be the public perception and marketing that has gone on for the last 20-30 years, that wooden boats just rot away overnight.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

The condition is all that matters. I don’t feel fishing boats have changed enough in the last 20 years to argue about. If you find an older one in good condition that you like, get it. Hell, the most important thing that has changed in fishing boats in the last ~40 years that we have identified the combinations of features that allow us to specialize boats for specific niche applications; most small boats prior to the 70’s were pretty utilitarian.

I saw a 1957 run-about last week that was hot molded using mahogany plys and Resorcinol (it is a plywood hull, but it wasn’t plywood until it was glued, pressed together and heated in the shape of the hull) with soft chines and a flat bottom at the transom. The same techniques could be used to make a fabulous technical skiff. The only reason boats aren’t still made that way anymore isn’t because the materials are “so much better”; it is because there are cheaper ways to make boats now. It is no longer cost effective to commercially make small low-end to mid-grade boats out of high quality wood. Only fools in their garages and a few custom builders mess with wood anymore.

Nate


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## Cut Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

Nate I completely agree. I'm thinking more in the realm of super high quality woods or even a custom composite wood core, pre preg, carbon build. Pretty much old meets new. More of a super high end, low production custom $100k plus skiff. I'm just dreaming but I think a skiff like that could outperform the best that today has to offer. So, I dont personally think we've reached a peak in design and performance. But were pretty close..


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

321nole said:


> that's pretty awesome to hear considering everything I've learned to date seems to indicate that only 17-18 of the boats were ever built. I actually got a message from another member here not long ago detailing a few of the other owners still running mangrove's, based on your location I suspect you were included on the list.
> 
> I absolutely love the boat and its taken everything I've thrown at it in stride, from poling in the IRL, to days at the sand bar and spearfishing on the backside of the reef near looe key


Would you be able to put some pics of your Mangrove up?


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Cut Runner said:


> Nate I completely agree. I'm thinking more in the realm of super high quality woods or even a custom composite wood core, pre preg, carbon build. Pretty much old meets new. More of a super high end, low production custom $100k plus skiff. I'm just dreaming but I think a skiff like that could outperform the best that today has to offer. So, I dont personally think we've reached a peak in design and performance. But were pretty close..


I also think carbon and wood could complement each other beautifully if folks got past the “no-wood” mental block. The carbon would stiffen the wood, allowing thinner cores and the wood would protect the carbon better than foam core. Imagine a light strip-built skiff with biax carbon on the compression side of all the curves. You could get any curve you wanted and the carbon would counter the weaknesses of the technique with minimal weight penalty.

Nate


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

sjrobin said:


> Would you be able to put some pics of your Mangrove up?


Sure can...there’s some in my boat thread or whatever it was but I think I have a few others on my phone

Edit: here’s a link to it

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/finally-1988-mangrove-17.45331/


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

View attachment 56788
View attachment 56790


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## Fishtex (May 10, 2014)

Carbon fiber is stiff but brittle, no impact strength. Plywood is stiff and has good impact strength. Build the hull panels in okume, everything else in foam core and nidacore decks and sole....epoxy only. The boat will be stiff and light. Carbon fiber has its place...like when we want to fly or when we need really light weight stiff structures, boats not so much. 

FYI, carbon fiber is often combined with more common e-glass, Kevlar to overcome its shortcomings. It’s a great material, but I see way to many people wanting to use it who have no effing idea what they are talking about.


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## MooreMiller (Sep 10, 2016)

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> I agree. I’m currently building a plywood/ epoxy skiff, but a lot of people unfamiliar with boats laugh at the idea of a “wooden boat.” Besides the high end sport fishers and yachts, companies like Albury built very high quality wooden boats for decades, and people have crossed oceans on wooden boats for centuries.
> 
> Most of us know the differences between epoxy and polyester resins, and how the former can prevent wood rot completely, but I found it interesting that boats run in saltwater regularly won’t rot, even if they have a leak. Saltwater is a preservative, wooden boats that rot do it when sitting in yards.
> 
> The problem with a new high end wood skiff would be the public perception and marketing that has gone on for the last 20-30 years, that wooden boats just rot away overnight.


Saltwater acting as a preservative does make sense. How do you explain rotting wood transoms? Is it mainly rainwater that rots a transom?


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

321nole said:


> Sure can...there’s some in my boat thread or whatever it was but I think I have a few others on my phone
> 
> Edit: here’s a link to it
> 
> https://www.microskiff.com/threads/finally-1988-mangrove-17.45331/


Good looking big water skiff. Tough to pole into a breeze for sure.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

looks like someone copied someone else. SilverKing began production in 86. I believe.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

.


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

I think most transom rot is due to penetrations . Motor bolts ,depth finder screws ,trim tab mounts ,etc....


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

devrep said:


> looks like someone copied someone else. SilverKing began production in 86. I believe.
> View attachment 56832


definitely similar, couldn't tell ya who did what first


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

sjrobin said:


> Good looking big water skiff. Tough to pole into a breeze for sure.


oh yeah, into the wind is no fun, doable but I do my best to work with the wind if there's no way to avoid it. for as big as it is though, it poles and tracks incredibly well on calm days. the information I've found on them points to a dry hull weight somewhere around the 700lb mark so that puts it in line with the Marquesa or the 17/18hpxv.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

MooreMiller said:


> Saltwater acting as a preservative does make sense. How do you explain rotting wood transoms? Is it mainly rainwater that rots a transom?


Most leaks in to the bilge of a boat are from cracks in the chines or faulty through-hulls or popped rivets. In many cases, the core material, if present, doesn’t actually get wet from a normal leak. You just pull the plug at the end of the day and let it drain.

Rotten/waterlogged transoms and stringers are a different problem. They result from water being trapped next to the core by the glass. This can be due to cracks in the glass, improperly bedded screws/bolts or just water wicking through porous polyester resin. I’ve seen more rot in boats used in saltwater than fresh. This doesn’t mean saltwater is better or worse; it only means I’ve been around more polyester/ply composite skiffs that were made for saltwater use.

In the end, if the core gets wet and stays that way, it will rot/waterlog/swell. Soaking in rain water is the most common culprit, but that is because most boats spend 98% of their life on the trailer, not because freshwater is worse.

Nate


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## Half Shell (Jul 19, 2016)

From talking to a couple of guys at a well known custom builder about this topic not long ago, my takeaway was new hulls are more consistent.

20+ years ago, there was quite a bit of variance in hull weight due to the amount of resin used in lamination. Today, every good manufacturer knows exactly how much resin is going to be used when they infuse or bag it and that hull or deck should be within a 1lb or so every time before options and rigging. Even with skilled craftsman, you simply did not have that kind of quality control back in the day.

I would love to hear more qualified opinions but I would guess the number of people that were in a position to really know then and now, and yet don't have a dog in the fight trying to sell skiffs today are very, very few. 

Getting someone involved in the business today to say "they were better back then" is not going to happen on the internet. Getting someone involved back then to say "they are better now then when I was building them" is going to be rare due to most people's ego and things were always better "back in the day".


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## Half Shell (Jul 19, 2016)

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> I’m currently building a plywood/ epoxy skiff, but a lot of people unfamiliar with boats laugh at the idea of a “wooden boat.” Besides the high end sport fishers and yachts, companies like Albury built very high quality wooden boats for decades, and people have crossed oceans on wooden boats for centuries.
> 
> The problem with a new high end wood skiff would be the public perception and marketing that has gone on for the last 20-30 years, that wooden boats just rot away overnight.


A lot of truth to this. Mention your boat has wood on THT and now its a POS. I can't imagine appealing to the masses today in this market.

I don't know enough about cold mold construction to speak intelligently of it but the custom NC builders don't seem to have a problem getting people to pay millions for a big Jarret Bay, Spencer, etc yet a $30K 17' skiff must be wood free. 

I would love to build an all wood runabout like an old Chris Craft or Riva but I lack the skills, time, and place to do it. Maybe a skiff like you see in Wood Boat Magazine one day.


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## Stevie (Jun 27, 2017)

321nole said:


> oh yeah, into the wind is no fun, doable but I do my best to work with the wind if there's no way to avoid it. for as big as it is though, it poles and tracks incredibly well on calm days. the information I've found on them points to a dry hull weight somewhere around the 700lb mark so that puts it in line with the Marquesa or the 17/18hpxv.


As a community we should insist that our boats are weighed when buying new. No way can you believe builders figures on weight. Making builders weigh boats would keep them honest. I won’t buy a used boat again w/o weighing. Bought a Mirage 1 that floated and ran nicely... we weighed it unrigged at 1100 pounds... my hope is to achieve 700 pounds unrigged after rebuilding.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

that push pole has some serious womp in it


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

devrep said:


> that push pole has some serious womp in it
> View attachment 56868


lol yeah, bit more than I would like but until I get around to having the boat refinished itll just have to do. silver lining, I could hit a pot hole the size of a school bus at 75mph and that push pole will still be there


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2019)

Stevie said:


> As a community we should insist that our boats are weighed when buying new. No way can you believe builders figures on weight. Making builders weigh boats would keep them honest. I won’t buy a used boat again w/o weighing. Bought a Mirage 1 that floated and ran nicely... we weighed it unrigged at 1100 pounds... my hope is to achieve 700 pounds unrigged after rebuilding.


Ya should be pretty close w/out the wet foam


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

sjrobin said:


> That is a direct hull mold copy.


knew this was coming, bold statement about a boat that was built in 1988


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

With wood being a product of mother nature ( with her inconsistencies ) , boat building was more of an art form 100 years ago Still love the classic lines of wooden boats from the nc coast. Just because the skiff is built in Harkers Island doesnt mean its a “ Harkers island skiff “. Saw one built this summer out of one by six treated “for sale Harkers Island skiff “ Negative . Has more to do with the how than the where 
The lines on these boats on micro skiff are gorgeous as well. As a woodworker I am super impressed with all of your guys skills with fiberglass. I’ve glassed over a few wooden hulls , but nothing like what you folks do with these poling skiffs. Ive enjoyed!


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## fishnsurf (Jan 10, 2019)

Well. All the old skiffs I listed in the beginning are pretty non-existent on the market. I guess it's a slow-play trying to buy one of these. There's bound to be one sitting in a garage all original and barely used...


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## digisol (Nov 19, 2018)

fishnsurf said:


> I don't know man.. my 1992 intrepid 26 gets 2mpg at a 40mph cruise (repowered w 4strokes). My 2002 yukon xl is as dependable and gets better mpg than many newer trucks, and although I dont have a stock in-truck computer screen, I have an iPhone.. which takes care of most all of that.
> 
> For real though, I hear you. What im trying to understand is all electrical systems aside, does a brand new HPX-V really warrant a huge premium over the best of 20 years ago? I'm trying to get into a good all-around skiff without taking a loan. I can completely re-rig a boat myself so I'm not afraid of old systems or even old power. Have the hulls really improved so much to where you cant compete in an older hull? I'm new to the skiff game. In offshore boats, you obviously get more built-in comforts, maybe a stepped hull etc. I still spend plenty of time in the bahamas on a boat almost as old as I am, because it's been cared for and updated correctly. Your thoughts on this are very welcomed, and I'd appreciate an expansion on those thoughts.



Great question.. I can’t wait to hear the positive reply’s


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## Cut Runner (Jan 25, 2017)

You could look at it another way...
You could find enjoyment out of fishing (sometimes catching) a restored timeless classic as well. I love to see an old wind river challenger or willy Robert's polling around with the best of them still getting it done!
Bet it gets alot more looks and compliments too boot!


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## Weck68w (May 7, 2013)

fishnsurf said:


> Well. All the old skiffs I listed in the beginning are pretty non-existent on the market. I guess it's a slow-play trying to buy one of these. There's bound to be one sitting in a garage all original and barely used...


Nice 94 SK for sale at a good price it’s on the Facebook market place. Sorry couldn’t figure out how to get a link.


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