# My water logged J12



## albuilt51

I know, there are a lot of these threads around, and I've probably read them all, both here and on other sites. But this is 2017 and my solution to a water logged CS J12 goes well beyond just drilling drain holes (which don't work).

I drilled two holes in the transom of my J12 last fall, (3 foot long drill bit), after which a very small amount of water drained from them, less than a cup each. So over winter she was kept high and dry, bow up, for 5 months. Today I ran a drill bit into a couple of old seat mounting holes that were never sealed properly, and out came soaking wet foam. Tried a couple other existing holes in different 'log' compartments with the same result.


The boat had been poorly maintained by the previous owner(s) but the outside of the hull is still like new. Lots of holes drilled in the deck with little or no proper sealer. Lots of heavy spider webbing, and water ponding on the unprotected deck when not in use. I knew she carried water, but never had a chance to weigh her. The boat was nearly free, (probably what some readers will say it's worth), but I want the stability of this boat for the smaller inland lakes around here and I'm not afraid of a challenge to fix her right.

So knowing there was considerable water still in the hull, I pulled out a 2-1/2" hole saw and started putting holes about every 7" from side to side. Using a long flat bladed screw driver I started breaking up and pulling out the foam. Every bit of foam was loaded with water, like a sponge, I could squeeze out considerable amounts of water from every piece. The foam reminded me of watermelon, it was that water logged. The most interesting aspect was that the top of the foam was every bit a soaked as the bottom, with little to no water puddled underneath, meaning the foam had sucked up all the moisture like a wick and held it.



















From a single foam log compartment I removed a basket ball sized plastic bag worth of wet foam which weighed 6 pounds. I figure I only removed about 3/4 of all the foam/water in there so it is safe to estimate that each compartment holds 8 pounds of water, and I count 18 compartments, which is nearly 150 pounds of water. That's about 1/4 of the rated total capacity of this boat. Or 35 pounds more than the weight of the 25hp Evinrude 2-stroke that's going on it.

Drilling holes and prying loose that much foam is a very slow process, but once 3/4 of the foam is removed the rest should dry out given a few warm sunny days and a breeze. All the foam was still properly adhered to the inside of the fiberglass compartments, so leaving a little in there (after drying) before re-filling with expanding foam won't present a problem. The plan is to glass over the original now- perforated deck and foam filled holes with new glass.

Learned:
1) The foam originally used in the hull WILL absorb and HOLD water INDEFINITELY , regardless of what anybody else says.
2) Drilling drain holes will NOT remove the water held by the foam.
3) Gravity will not pull the water from the foam. Just like with a sponge, you can squeeze a puddle of water out of the foam, then place the foam in puddle and it will soak it right back up.
4) If you want to remove the water from inside the hull of a CS, you'll need to open it up.


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## Dustin2785

One of my dads buddies had the same problem with his older j16 and he ended up cutting his whole deck out. He dug all the foam out put in a stringer system and glasses the deck back in and the boat ran better than it ever did before.


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## TylertheTrout2

prior to you digging around did you have any soft spots on the deck at all? Just curious


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## albuilt51

TylertheTrout2 said:


> prior to you digging around did you have any soft spots on the deck at all? Just curious


Didn't really notice any soft spots. The foam inside the individual compartments was still rigid and looked great - just waterlogged. The individual compartments only measure 4" wide by 3.5" tall which helps to maintain rigidity. Spider webbing could cause weak spots...and water intrusion.


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## albuilt51

Dustin2785 said:


> One of my dads buddies had the same problem with his older j16 and he ended up cutting his whole deck out. He dug all the foam out put in a stringer system and glasses the deck back in and the boat ran better than it ever did before.


I'm going to stick with the original construction, with new foam and new fiberglass decking. My plan is to mount a small center console, and may need to scale down from the Evinrude 25 originally set aside for it.

I have heard of J16 owners with over 300 lbs of water weight in their hulls. That's almost like leaving your trailer attached to your boat!


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## TylertheTrout2

hah, yea I have a J16 that I know has some water in it. Tried to figure out if I wanted to go through with all the foam work and stuff...now I just say f**k it, still floats in 4-5 inches and can pole with a buddy and gear in 7" no prob. Just fish the damn thing till it sinks if it didn't cost you much, mine was practically donated to me by a neighbor. We're still having a blast in that thing after all these years, plus with the 50hp Merc 2 stroke it gets up and moves fine...real fine lol


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## albuilt51

50hp! Definitely not under powered.

I would have looked for something newer, nicer, but CS boats are rare here in Michigan. Had a nicer J14 years ago with a Merc 20 on it, which really moved well. Still won't have much into this J12, except sweat and time, and plan to keep it until the end of days. Hell, they're more like a barge or pontoon than a 'boat'. Great fishing platforms.


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## TylertheTrout2

Most Def!! Good luck to ya, it'll be real nice once all said and done


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## DuckNut

People have been led a line of CRAP when they are told the 2 part foam will not absorb water - as you found out. Total lies and pity the guy who believes it will never absorb water.

What you have is a classic situation and probably don;t even have a leak. The hull is built, the foam poured and a couple layers of glass mat is put over top and then sold. Now you take it out and the sun heats up the sole and the hull is in cool water and the result is condensation. Repeat several thousand times and you have a hull full of water. And the cycle is not limited to water use, it will do it sitting on the trailer.

Good luck on the re-do. You already know it has to be done.


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## yobata

DuckNut said:


> People have been led a line of CRAP when they are told the 2 part foam will not absorb water - as you found out. Total lies and pity the guy who believes it will never absorb water.
> 
> What you have is a classic situation and probably don;t even have a leak. The hull is built, the foam poured and a couple layers of glass mat is put over top and then sold. Now you take it out and the sun heats up the sole and the hull is in cool water and the result is condensation. Repeat several thousand times and you have a hull full of water. And the cycle is not limited to water use, it will do it sitting on the trailer.
> 
> Good luck on the re-do. You already know it has to be done.


Ducknut, does this also happen with epoxy constructions? I suppose you can get condensation there too.

Is here a way to minimize the condensation? Smaller pockets of air??


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## DuckNut

yobata said:


> Ducknut, does this also happen with epoxy constructions? I suppose you can get condensation there too.
> 
> Is here a way to minimize the condensation? Smaller pockets of air??


Whenever you have contrasting temperatures (warm and cold) where they meet will condensate. This is caused because the temperature differences is causing the heat transfer to cause the air to return to its liquid state, ie: dew point. In the case of this type of boat there is nothing that can be done to stop it. However, changes can be made to minimize the damage of the water. 

Create weep holes so water can run down and out of the compartments. In this style of boat it would be best to use sheet foam and keep is slightly off the hull so water can run out. Trap it in there and it will break down the foam and start to allow the foam to absorb moisture.

In the skiff world it happens with every boat regardless of construction and added to that the Coast Guard requires a certain amount of flotation. Poly res, epoxy resin, Cheech and Chong resin - does not matter. You simply have to have an avenue for the water to escape.

Any boat that has the foam beneath the sole will have this problem. Not IF but WHEN. A better way in my opinion is to make the sole with storage compartments to store your crap and make wide gunnels and put the foam under there from stern to bow. This would also make the boat float upright in the case of catastrophic mishap. The hulls filled with foam will float upside down.

I am not a boat builder but I have done my share of experimenting, just like Curtis. Built enough boats to know every single one will become waterlogged and have figured workarounds for most issues. Builders build the same way as they have for decades. The industry made wood the bad guy. It wasn't - the boat owner was but you won't sell many boats by telling the owner he is a complete idiot. Composites became the norm and look - we have the exact same problems as when wood was in the boats. Worse yet is that the OP is from MI and the sun is hot and the water never warms up - this will accelerate the process.

Yobata. Try this. On cool morning slide your boat out of the barn and put it in the sun. Come back in 20 minutes and open a hatch and rub the underside. It will be moist from exactly what I described above. Here is another one - fill a glass jar half way with gas and do the same thing repeatedly and over the course of a month you will have enough water in there to cause motor issues. Once again, same principle. This is why everyone complains about fuel issues. However, the fuel issue can be minimized if the can is under pressure rather than a vacuum. The can will expand when heating and contract when cooling creating the vacuum. Let it heat and seal it off (vent included) before it cools and there will be no vacuum and no condensation.


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## DuckNut

Here is another example of condensation at work.
https://www.microskiff.com/threads/mold-in-hull.43920/#post-352699


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## predacious

Waterlogged Carolina skiffs and whalers - nothing new here !!

Carolina skiff clearly states - no holes in the deck 
People still do it

Condensation eventually can cause a problem - it will take a long time 



Holes in deck - that's where problem begin

Repairing that problem


carolina skiffs are built with foam logs - glassed down

Look at the deck - the pattern will be apparent 


All the wet foam needs to be removed - not an easy task 

Again - the situation you have, it was easy to avoid, by proper sealing 

I've seen and repaired this situation quite a few times....


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## albuilt51

This spring has been extremely wet and I finally made room to get the boat in the shop so work can get done on it regardless of the weather.

Getting the water logged foam out of the hull is incredibly time consuming. So far I'm 3/4 of the way done, and every cubic inch of foam, from top to bottom, from side to side, from front to rear, has been totally saturated with water. At least 100 pounds of water removed so far. Water still lies in the bottom of the individual compartments as well. The water holding ability of this foam is incredible, and there is NO WAY to ever dry out a hull w/o removing the foam, period. On the plus side: if ever in a desert and dying of thirst, just look for a Carolina Skiff...

I'm ready to order foam, but not sure what density foam CS used originally. Would it be considered 'structural' like 3#-4# foam, or simply 2# just for buoyancy? My foam experience is limited to what comes in a can. I'd like to glass over the original deck and new foam with either 1708 or 1208, or could lay down a 3/8" plywood deck thoroughly glassed-in. Any thoughts?

This is just a fishing boat for mostly calm, inland freshwater lakes where the biggest wave will probably only be 6", and the furthest distance to travel under 1 mile. But I would like it to last.


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## yobata

Why don't you cut out the whole floor? With so many holes you will essentially need an all new floor anyway and it should make the foam removal much easier.


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## albuilt51

What are you referring to as the "whole floor"? Believe me, it has crossed my mind to gut everything down to the bare hull, including the stringers, but that is more than I wanted to tackle. The idea in doing it this way is to leave as much of the original deck as possible to make leveling off the foam and glassing-over relatively easy. As tedious as it is to remove the foam, I haven't thrown any tools or spoken any Navy language...yet.


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## yobata

albuilt51 said:


> What are you referring to as the "whole floor"? Believe me, it has crossed my mind to gut everything down to the bare hull, including the stringers, but that is more than I wanted to tackle. The idea in doing it this way is to leave as much of the original deck as possible to make leveling off the foam and glassing-over relatively easy. As tedious as it is to remove the foam, I haven't thrown any tools or spoken any Navy language...yet.












The part highlighted in red. Some people call it the cockpit floor or sole. Why not just cut it near the sides (where I drew the red line) and remove the entire thing? I would imagine that removing the water soaked foam would be much easier and complete at that point. Otherwise, what is the plan, to repair/ fill in all those holes you made? It would probably go faster too. 

Check out this thread of a guy fixing his stringers, he basically cut his at the sides, lifted it out of the way while he worked below the floor/sole and then was able to use it again (you may be too far along to salvage that floor/sole now): https://www.microskiff.com/threads/photo-documentary-pathfinder-15t-stringer-rebuild.43144/

Here are some photos that shows the process more clearly, he cut it out, did the work underneath, and then replaced it, faired and painted.


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## DuckNut

cut it all out.

Pour the foam in every other compartment and once cured cut it level with the top of the compartment bulkhead. Go to the music store and buy a guitar string that is would and it will be a nice saw. Then do the remaining ones.

After that put a new floor in and go fishing


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## albuilt51

I saw somewhere else how someone had cut around, then 'peeled' off the fiberglass decking leaving the foam and the stringers. If I had this to do over again, that's what I'd do, perhaps even tackle replacing the stringers too, but this will be my one and only resurrection of a waterlogged CS. I'm at the narrow areas of foam in the bow now, still totally waterlogged. Contemplated about leaving it, but the thought of water in my hull when winter rolls around just doesn't set right. When done, 100% of the factory foam will be gone.

So far all the work has been done with me standing outside the boat, which is good considering my knees and back, (not a spring chicken). For being fiberglass, this boat is now a lightweight with all that water gone. My 9.9 Evinrude 2-stroke should be plenty of motor for an inland fishing boat. Will more than likely put down a 3/8" ply deck with glass top & bottom, just to have a smooth, flat floor. No holes. I might glass in some hold downs for the fuel tank and battery, but when done it should look like a new, bare hull.

I finally found somewhere that the factory uses 2# foam in these boats, so that gets ordered today as we are looking to get some temps in the 70's here next week. US Composites seems to have as good a price as anyone, and their service in the past has been excellent.


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## jmrodandgun

albuilt51 said:


> Will more than likely put down a 3/8" ply deck with glass top & bottom, just to have a smooth, flat floor.


Why? You went through all that trouble to remove 100 pounds of foam. Why bother putting 40 pounds of plywood, glass, and paint back into he boat?


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## albuilt51

jmrodandgun said:


> Why? You went through all that trouble to remove 100 pounds of foam. Why bother putting 40 pounds of plywood, glass, and paint back into he boat?


I usually stand while motoring & fishing, but sometimes use folding deck chairs on a lazy day, (& the wife has her recliner). I'm not a fan of permanently located pedestal seat mounts, preferring to leave the deck wide open to any arrangement the day requires. One of the major reasons I like these skiffs so much is they're like a mini pontoon, and can be used in a variety of ways. So 40 pounds of hard, dry, flat, versatile decking is a plus to me, especially after removing approximately 160 pounds of useless water.

The skiff had a large casting deck on the bow, and that's not going back on either. It weighs 65 pounds. I reckon that a skiff with a large bow casting deck, large rear deck/bench, and a middle bench seat would be somewhere near 200 pounds heavier than a bare hull(?)

I'm also fabricating an aluminum framed bench in front of the motor, which will support 1-2 people. It'll mount to the gunnels similar to a CS fiberglass bench, only it'll weigh considerably less.


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## predacious

those boats do not have "stringers" - they're constructed by using foam"logs" - these are glassed down,and somewhat of a "bulkhead" is made with foam and glass.this "holds" the hull's shape

look at the deck - it will have what appears to be "hills" in it

with all that:

cutting the entire deck out - removing all the foam would've been the best approach...
fabricate a few stringers - running forward/aft add a few "bulkheads",with drainage holes and some PVC pipe 

pour the foam in,after all that has been fabbed - add a "garboard" plug to the transom 

drop down a quality composite - bond that to the stringers you fabbed up and glass that to the sides of the hull

fair it down,quality 2 part primer,roll it out in awlgrip and "grip tex"

done !


adding plywood,using a polyester resin - these are not the best materials to be using...wood isn't light,wood rots - wood requires epoxy,and it requires complete and total sealing.
you need to think "ahead"....


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## Mercuryproteam

Just did this with a J14. My suggestion is to RUN. Buy a new hull. You will not recoup the money spent in materials and your labor. I cut the floor leaving a small lip around the edge to glass the new floor to. I used a honey comb material 4x8 sheet for the new floor. Glassed in my own stringers with 2x4's cut down to the correct height size. Rebuilt the transom with 1/4 plywood layered up since the transom was round. Think I had 4 pieces that were glassed together and clamped to the transom skin. Front deck was also water logged. Removed all of the 3/4 inch plywood squares and replaced them with a sheet of nidacore. Closed up 30 or so holes on the hull and resprayed the entire boat. List goes on and on. You will not get your money back since a new hull costs less than 1600. I could have purchased a brand new hull for 1800. But if you enjoy grinding glass and re building boats, then it is a great project. Good luck.


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## predacious

Mercuryproteam said:


> Just did this with a J14. My suggestion is to RUN. Buy a new hull. You will not recoup the money spent in materials and your labor. I cut the floor leaving a small lip around the edge to glass the new floor to. I used a honey comb material 4x8 sheet for the new floor. Glassed in my own stringers with 2x4's cut down to the correct height size. Rebuilt the transom with 1/4 plywood layered up since the transom was round. Think I had 4 pieces that were glassed together and clamped to the transom skin. Front deck was also water logged. Removed all of the 3/4 inch plywood squares and replaced them with a sheet of nidacore. Closed up 30 or so holes on the hull and resprayed the entire boat. List goes on and on. You will not get your money back since a new hull costs less than 1600. I could have purchased a brand new hull for 1800. But if you enjoy grinding glass and re building boats, then it is a great project. Good luck.




not to get off track from the topic:


why would you use 2X4's as stringers,then put a composite product on top of that - then use 1/4" wood as transom coring ?


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## Mercuryproteam

2x4's are inexpensive and strong. Same with the plywood transom. I could have used coosa board for transom and stringers but that would have been three times as much. Composite board on the floor for the weight. With a layer of 1708 on both sides, it's was still extremely light.


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## albuilt51

It's been a busy spring, like every spring in Michigan, so the boat work has been hit & miss.

What I have accomplished was to open up all the 'holes' put in the original decking to better access and remove all the water logged foam. Every last piece was soaked. Yeah, it was time consuming but when working at it a couple hours at a time it wasn't such a nightmare that I regret doing it this way.

I purchased a 16# kit of 2# expanding urethane foam from USC, which by my estimates should have been enough, but as someone else said, "there's a lot of waste". Great Stuff Gap & Crack Filler, along with cut pieces of closed cell insulating foam was used to fill the remaining spaces. Some have said that Great Stuff has no place on a boat, but in a completely sealed cavity performing a non-structural job - it'll work just fine. Once all the foam was in place and hard, the hull did stiffen up with virtually no flex. Note the HF $8 flush cut hand saw used to cut away excess foam while leaving a flat surface... it was worth far more for the job it did.







Soon, as time allows, I'll be putting down 1708 bi-axial (with mat) using epoxy resin. I have additional 1208 on hand if more surface rigidity is needed. I dropped the idea of using 3/8" plywood over the existing deck as it seemed like too much work and material for the intended results.

IF another decent, (but waterlogged), skiff came my way for next to nothing, I might try this again, but next time the inside of the hull would be completely gutted and rebuilt using new composite stringers and decking. The cost would still be considerably less than a new hull, plus I'd have the satisfaction of having a personal hand in the build. If you don't love doing it - don't bother.


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## albuilt51

Rainy weekend, the wife out of town, took this opportunity to knock out the glass work.









First I mixed 1/2" chopped strand with epoxy to fill areas that weren't level. Next came a layer of 1708 biaxial with mat. Then another layer of 1208 biaxial. The temperatures were cool (65), and I had medium setting epoxy, so there was no hurry. A 6" wide plastic putty knife and a 1/2"x4" bubble roller were all that was required. The results are everything I had hoped for. Materials total for the entire job up to this point come to about $325. I did not keep track of time, but it was time consuming... and satisfying.

Now that I have a dry and much lighter skiff, the focus turns to color/paint. Being that Michigan has 9 months of winter and 3 months of bad weather, white is not as necessary as it is in the Gulf states. Menard's has Rustoleum Top Side paint, which should work just fine for a fishing boat.

Now that the boat has shed 180 pounds of water from the hull, I'm beginning to re-think using the front casting deck, which weighs about 60 pounds. Having that weight at the bow might prove to be beneficial in keeping the bow down when fishing alone. Guess I'll have to remove the water logged plywood in it now...


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## albuilt51

Just finished off the restoration with one coat of Rustoleum Top Coat primer and two coats of Top Coat sand beige, then black enamel splatter. Came out the best I could hope for. I'll let it sit for a couple days to allow the paint to fully cure before using. Just in time for the bluegill spawning season.

This whole process was worth it to me, others' mileage may vary.

Note: HF aluminum ramps make excellent lightweight bench seat frames. Can be finished off any number of ways.


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## Greg Brown

jmrodandgun said:


> Why? You went through all that trouble to remove 100 pounds of foam. Why bother putting 40 pounds of plywood, glass, and paint back into he boat?


What's your suggestion? I'm about to do the same thing with a little tiderunner skiff for bank fishing the flats


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