# Problems with Sufix 832, and alternatives?



## Gatorgrizz27

I primarily fly-fish, and have been using the same old spinning equipment for awhile, loaded with Power Pro. I decided to drop the coin on some new spinning gear after being on a few trips with friends where I was unable to fly fish, and went with Daiwa BG reels on Hurricane Calico Jack rods.

I tried out Sufix 832 line in 10 lb on my 2500 series reels, and 20 lb on my 3500 reel. I broke the 10 lb line with my hands tying the leader on, and I regularly tie 8 lb and smaller mono with no issues. The first trip out with the 20 lb rig, I hooked a big bull red that took off and popped the line with minimal pressure. I assumed it was a bad leader knot, but tested the line when I got home and was surprised by what I found.

Tying surgeon's loops in the end of the line sections, the 10 lb Sufix 832 broke at under 7.5 lbs on a digital scale, and the 20 lb broke between 14 and 15 lbs. I tested it multiple times, and all breaks were in the middle of the line, rather than at the knots.

I contacted Sufix detailing my issues, including the serial numbers of the spools, and that I purchased it from Amazon this month, and their reply was that I should just return it.

I was pretty speechless after finding the line to break at 75% of it's rating, when most braided line (including Sufix) typically breaks at 50% more than its rating. I had assumed they would want my spools back to see what the issue was and ship me replacements, but apparently they don't seem to care.

I'm torn as to whether I should give it another shot as I've heard nothing but good about the line, but I also would prefer to not give them any of my money if that is their level of customer service and concern about quality control. Not to mention, I've dropped nearly $100 spooling these 3 rigs and lost the biggest red I've ever hooked. 

Anyone else have issues with the line breaking so easily, or a better alternative? I've looked at Fins, Power Pro, Spiderwire, and the Daiwa line, but Sufix seems to be the best, assuming that it can actually handle a fish at the load it's rated for.


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## DBStoots

Odd. Never had any problems with it.


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## Hardluk81

I have heard of people getting bad spools of braid. Mostly from amazon and eBay because it was Chinese stuff. I am currently using 8lb 832 on my spinning setups with no issues and its been on there a while. It does fade pretty fast though. When I'm done with it I have a spool of 8lb Ohero I'm going to try out to compare. The Ohero is supposed to be pretty good also but is hard to find for me locally. Do a search on here about braid and there is a thread with a couple pages of info.


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## Hardluk81

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/braid-again.44553/


Have fun!


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## Gatorgrizz27

Thanks for the replies. I suspected it might have been counterfeit also since I ordered it from Amazon. I did a search for "fake Sufix" and didn't find anything, and that is why I included the serial number when I emailed Sufix, but they didn't seem to think it was a problem.


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## Smackdaddy53

DBStoots said:


> Odd. Never had any problems with it.


Same here, tried the rest and been using nothing but Sufix832 for a couple of years now.


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## Smackdaddy53

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> Thanks for the replies. I suspected it might have been counterfeit also since I ordered it from Amazon. I did a search for "fake Sufix" and didn't find anything, and that is why I included the serial number when I emailed Sufix, but they didn't seem to think it was a problem.


Line is too cheap to skimp on discount crap, skimp on beer or clothes.


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## devrep

Diawa J braid.


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## Gatorgrizz27

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Line is too cheap to skimp on discount crap, skimp on beer or clothes.


Agreed, that's why I went with Sufix as I'd heard it was the best. I didn't save any money buying from Amazon, but the local stores (Academy, Bass Pro, Dick's, and other local tackle shops) don't carry the 300 yd spools, only the 150 yd ones. 

I'd happily try it again if I had the confidence it would be stronger, but unfortunately I don't and Sufix doesn't seem interested in helping. It may be fake, then may have started making it in China (even though the spools say Taiwan), or it may just be poor QC. Either way I expected them to want my line back to investigate, but they didn't.


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## Smackdaddy53

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> Agreed, that's why I went with Sufix as I'd heard it was the best. I didn't save any money buying from Amazon, but the local stores (Academy, Bass Pro, Dick's, and other local tackle shops) don't carry the 300 yd spools, only the 150 yd ones.
> 
> I'd happily try it again if I had the confidence it would be stronger, but unfortunately I don't and Sufix doesn't seem interested in helping. It may be fake, then may have started making it in China (even though the spools say Taiwan), or it may just be poor QC. Either way I expected them to want my line back to investigate, but they didn't.


I hear you bro. I get my reel shop to fill my tarpon and offshore reels with bulk Sufix832 and buy my inshore stuff from Academy in 150 or 300yd spools. Never had a single issue, that's why I went back to it. I have recently tried a baitcaster with 150yd if the Diawa J-Braid and it is just as good SO FAR. FINS, PP etc. is garbage with horrible QC issues.


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## Gatorgrizz27

Update for anyone interested, I've fished the Daiwa J-Braid I bought to replace it several times now, and am happy with it. Caught 22" reds and sail cats, no major tests on it yet but it does hold knots better than Sufix and is much stronger. I haven't broken the 30 lb, but the 15 lb broke at the knot at 17.5 lbs, so I'm satisfied.

Only downside to the J-Braid is that is it so supple it can wrap around the rod tip more easily if you get sloppy when popping plugs or lures and pull them out of the water. Not really a problem if you pay attention to you technique. No backlashes or wind knots, including casting into 15-20 mph winds yesterday.


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## Snooknut

I started using the 832 early this year, 10 and 15lb in chartreuse and white colors. I have the 15lb on 2 outfits and have 4 snook over 35" and 1 over 40" this summer with zero problems. I have Ohero 15lb in blue on another outfit and I like it as well. It is very soft and I've gotten wind knots in it a couple times but, it works well and the color retention on mine had been great


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## millerrep

I have been using 10 and 20 lb super slick power pro for maybe 3 years. Works fine, brown 10lb on 2500 spinners and 20 green on the 4000 spinners. I have soft hands, but I have never broke even the ten tying a knot.


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## j102

I have read good things about Sufix 832, but I have never tried it. I have been using PowerPro for years without any issues.


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## krash

Been using braid for many years now and tried many brands, generally most is between 10-25# depending on rod/reel setup. Inshore mostly I'll use between 10-20# lines, the setups with 25 are my goto spinners for on the boat use for Snapper fishing, or tossing a quick bait at schooling Dolphin, Trippletail, or the odd Cobia sighed while fishing offshore.

Always come back to Power-Pro and/or Suffix 832 depending on what random day it happens to be when purchasing new line. Both work and work well for my purposes and never had a strange breakage.

My standard rigging is approx 6' Bimini Twist loop in the braid, Uni to Uni Braid to Fluro leader 15-25# depending on target, perhaps 10# Fluro if fishin for yellowtail or dock snapper, then most likely a loop to the hook or lure.


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## sjrobin

I have used Suffix 832 since the first year it was available. Spooled on all the reels 10 to 60#. No issues


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## No Bait / Lures Only

I use mono only and with triple fish had terrific success on 12# test, then in the last couple of years tried Suffix and had problems with the line breaking during casts. Returned it to the tackle shop and he said it was a bad batch of mono. Then tried Ande, and had all of my casting reels changed out n after a couple of months the lines break during the cast of gold spoons for reds. Now changed out to 10# copolymer coated with fluorocarbon line, will see how this does. I do fish 2/3 days a week for reds in ponds.


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## j102

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> ...Now changed out to 10# copolymer coated with fluorocarbon line, will see how this does. I do fish 2/3 days a week for reds in ponds.


Which copolymer are you using now? I have heard good things about Yozuri and Pline.


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## No Bait / Lures Only

Just made the switch to Pline on my antique Lews Speed Spool BB1L Casting Reel, will give feedback as I changed to a smaller diameter than previously used, now 10# line on 1/4oz Tsunami Swim baits. Should get more strikes with lighter line, we will see.


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## Smackdaddy53

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> I use mono only and with triple fish had terrific success on 12# test, then in the last couple of years tried Suffix and had problems with the line breaking during casts. Returned it to the tackle shop and he said it was a bad batch of mono. Then tried Ande, and had all of my casting reels changed out n after a couple of months the lines break during the cast of gold spoons for reds. Now changed out to 10# copolymer coated with fluorocarbon line, will see how this does. I do fish 2/3 days a week for reds in ponds.


You should pull that rubber band off a spool and try some braid with a short mono leader. You will love it once you figure out the properties.


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## No Bait / Lures Only

Smackdaddy53 said:


> You should pull that rubber band off a spool and try some braid with a short mono leader. You will love it once you figure out the properties.


Never tried braid except back in the 60's before mono. What brand do you suggest for bait casting reels as that is all I use. Strictly casting spoons/swim baits/popping corks with 12# max. mono.


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## Smackdaddy53

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Never tried braid except back in the 60's before mono. What brand do you suggest for bait casting reels as that is all I use. Strictly casting spoons/swim baits/popping corks with 12# max. mono.


20# Sufix832 or Diawa J-Braid are awesome choices. 20# braid has the diameter of 6# mono and all I spool my baitcasters with for fishing artificials for trout, reds, flounder and snook etc. I tie a 4-5’ section of 20# clear Trilene Big Game mono for a leader just so I’m not cutting braid when changing lures. A Crazy Alberto knot is excellent for braid to mono.


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## j102

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Never tried braid except back in the 60's before mono. What brand do you suggest for bait casting reels as that is all I use. Strictly casting spoons/swim baits/popping corks with 12# max. mono.


I am a big fan of Power Pro.


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## No Bait / Lures Only

j102 said:


> I am a big fan of Power Pro.


thanks for your input, will give it a try


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## No Bait / Lures Only

Smackdaddy53 said:


> 20# Sufix832 or Diawa J-Braid are awesome choices. 20# braid has the diameter of 6# mono and all I spool my baitcasters with for fishing artificials for trout, reds, flounder and snook etc. I tie a 4-5’ section of 20# clear Trilene Big Game mono for a leader just so I’m not cutting braid when changing lures. A Crazy Alberto knot is excellent for braid to mono.


I am not familiar with that knot as I have been using a surgeon loop or knot.


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## Zika

Have used most braid brands but settled on Power Pro Slick 8. It's much more limber than regular PP with few wind knots. Casts much better and ties good knots. I use the 10# in Timber in my local tannin-stained water or green if fishing in clear. I tie about a 3-foot section of Seaguar blue label 20# fluorocarbon leader to the Slick 8 using double uni knots with no issues. 

As others have mentioned, braid will always over-test the stated line strength, so with 10 I'm probably fishing 12+, which is fine for trout, reds and smaller snook. Since I'm fishing 3000 class reels I load braid directly to the spool after I wrap a piece of teflon tape around the spool for the braid to grip. The tape peels right off when changing line and doesn't leave residue. I also use a single uni to tie the braid to the spool. 

I've been told by a reliable source that all Power Pro is white originally and the colored dyes are added with wax. That's why the first time or two using new line it's a little stiffer, but as the wax breaks down the line becomes more supple.


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## Smackdaddy53

Zika said:


> Have used most braid brands but settled on Power Pro Slick 8. It's much more limber than regular PP with few wind knots. Casts much better and ties good knots. I use the 10# in Timber in my local tannin-stained water or green if fishing in clear. I tie about a 3-foot section of Seaguar blue label 20# fluorocarbon leader to the Slick 8 using double uni knots with no issues.
> 
> As others have mentioned, braid will always over-test the stated line strength, so with 10 I'm probably fishing 12+, which is fine for trout, reds and smaller snook. Since I'm fishing 3000 class reels I load braid directly to the spool after I wrap a piece of teflon tape around the spool for the braid to grip. The tape peels right off when changing line and doesn't leave residue. I also use a single uni to tie the braid to the spool.
> 
> I've been told by a reliable source that all Power Pro is white originally and the colored dyes are added with wax. That's why the first time or two using new line it's a little stiffer, but as the wax breaks down the line becomes more supple.


I was using PPS8 when it came out and loved it until I started having random line breaks on several spools in a row as well as many of my guide buddies and fishing buddies so I made the switch. Even if it were a limited run issue I won’t ever go back.


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## EdK13

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I was using PPS8 when it came out and loved it until I started having random line breaks on several spools in a row as well as many of my guide buddies and fishing buddies so I made the switch. Even if it were a limited run issue I won’t ever go back.


I have one spool of slick 8 left-its definitely long casting but I hate it in the wind. And windy is how it usually is in Tejas'- J braid is good all around. Sort of between wind tamer and PP. Forgiving in the wind. Casts well. Ties well. Happy with it.


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## Marshfly

That surgeons loop is probably your issue. If you need a loop, you need a leader and it needs to be attached with a 14 turn Albright knot. If you are tying directly to the lure with the 832 use a Palomar. I use 832 exclusively on all of my spinning and casting reels for braid and those two knots have never slipped. Ever. 

I'd be willing to bet you lost that red because the line got in his gill plate. Light braid is not cut resistant at all. I use 20# minimum but have boat flipped 8# reds from the tower with it.


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## devrep

Jbraid.


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## Cam

EdK13 said:


> I have one spool of slick 8 left-its definitely long casting but I hate it in the wind.


This. Most of those limp lines are wind knot hell.

Something also to keep in mind, is that your drag must have been locked up (something that we do near mangroves sometimes) because the drag on a typical 2500-3500 reel is 12lbs or so. Even weakend that braid should have held up unless it was cut on something.

I love Sufix 832 but like all brands a bad run can and does happen. JBraid is a solid choice and typically a bit cheaper. Side note as mentioned earlier with braid to leader either a modified Albright with a locking knot or an FG knot are your two best bets.

I run that same rod/reel setup with Sufix 832 and Toray Fluoro. I haven't lost a big fish yet on braid failure and that includes some very big sharks, rays, tarpon and snook on a 20lb setup. Funny enough our hooks often snap before the line.


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## Hardluk81

I’ve had 832 on my spinning setups for a while now. I was out this weekend and noticed there was a splice in it. At first I thought it was a wind knot that I pulled tight but then noticed it’s a small blood knot (or something similar). It’s performed good so far but I would expect splice free for the money this stuff costs. Also it’s on a spinning reel but probably would’ve pissed me off if it was on one of my baitcasters.


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## Smackdaddy53

Hardluk81 said:


> I’ve had 832 on my spinning setups for a while now. I was out this weekend and noticed there was a splice in it. At first I thought it was a wind knot that I pulled tight but then noticed it’s a small blood knot (or something similar). It’s performed good so far but I would expect splice free for the money this stuff costs. Also it’s on a spinning reel but probably would’ve pissed me off if it was on one of my baitcasters.


Drinking and spooling reels?


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## CaptDanS

I don't get it you have a 15 lb


Gatorgrizz27 said:


> Update for anyone interested, I've fished the Daiwa J-Braid I bought to replace it several times now, and am happy with it. Caught 22" reds and sail cats, no major tests on it yet but it does hold knots better than Sufix and is much stronger. I haven't broken the 30 lb, but the 15 lb broke at the knot at 17.5 lbs, so I'm satisfied.
> 
> Only downside to the J-Braid is that is it so supple it can wrap around the rod tip more easily if you get sloppy when popping plugs or lures and pull them out of the water. Not really a problem if you pay attention to you technique. No backlashes or wind knots, including casting into 15-20 mph winds yesterday.


I am confused you have a 15lb line and it breaks at 17.5lbs and you are satisfied ?
Why


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## Gatorgrizz27

Marshfly said:


> That surgeons loop is probably your issue. If you need a loop, you need a leader and it needs to be attached with a 14 turn Albright knot. If you are tying directly to the lure with the 832 use a Palomar. I use 832 exclusively on all of my spinning and casting reels for braid and those two knots have never slipped. Ever.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet you lost that red because the line got in his gill plate. Light braid is not cut resistant at all. I use 20# minimum but have boat flipped 8# reds from the tower with it.





Cam said:


> This. Most of those limp lines are wind knot hell.
> 
> Something also to keep in mind, is that your drag must have been locked up (something that we do near mangroves sometimes) because the drag on a typical 2500-3500 reel is 12lbs or so. Even weakend that braid should have held up unless it was cut on something.
> 
> I love Sufix 832 but like all brands a bad run can and does happen. JBraid is a solid choice and typically a bit cheaper. Side note as mentioned earlier with braid to leader either a modified Albright with a locking knot or an FG knot are your two best bets.
> 
> I run that same rod/reel setup with Sufix 832 and Toray Fluoro. I haven't lost a big fish yet on braid failure and that includes some very big sharks, rays, tarpon and snook on a 20lb setup. Funny enough our hooks often snap before the line.


Sorry I haven't replied, it seemed like this has fizzled out awhile ago, just saw all the new posts. I was running a Yo-Zuri 30 lb Fluoro leader tied with an FG knot, so I don't think it got caught on his gill plate. As I said originally, at first I suspected my knot failed until I looked at the line more closely, which is when I tested it. I wasn't using the surgeon's loop for fishing, as I know it is a weak knot, I just tied it to test the breaking strength with a scale. The Sufix broke at 75% of it's rated strength in the middle of the line, rather than at the knot.

I was willing to chalk it up to a bad batch of line and give them another shot, but their quality control and customer service was non-existent. They suggested I simply return it to where I bought it from if I wasn't happy with it, rather than wanting to inspect it.

I also don't think my drag was set too high, the rod was flexing but I wasn't even putting much pressure on it, and the fish had started pulling line off the reel.

FWIW, I've been happy with the Daiwa J-Braid and landed several mid slot sized reds on it with no issues. I've been using the Tony Peña knot to my leaders and really like it.


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## Gatorgrizz27

CaptDanS said:


> I don't get it you have a 15 lb
> 
> 
> I am confused you have a 15lb line and it breaks at 17.5lbs and you are satisfied ?
> Why


Not sure I'm understanding your question. My original post was about Sufix 832 breaking at under 75% of its rating. I've switched to the Daiwa J-Braid and it is stronger than it is rated for and broke at the knot, which is to be expected, so I'm happy with it. 

I'm not going for IFGA records where I want 15 lb line to be no stronger than 15 lbs, if that was where you were going. I like the casting distance and spool capacity of smaller line, but want all the strength I can get.


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## DBStoots

Anyone compared that Tony Pena knot to a uni-to-uni or FG knot?


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## Gatorgrizz27

DBStoots said:


> Anyone compared that Tony Pena knot to a uni-to-uni or FG knot?


It is stronger and smaller than a double uni, it is marginally larger and weaker than a properly tied FG knot. The diameter of the FG knot is 1x the leader plus 2x the braid. The diameter of the Pena knot is 2x the leader plus 1x the braid. The diameter of the double uni is 3x the leader plus 1x the braid. 

My problem with the FG knot is that it is easy to not get the final weaves tight enough and it can slip off the leader, especially with hard fluro and slick braid. When I tie it at home, about 1/3 to 1/4 of the time I end up re-tying it because I feel it doesn't cinch tight enough. It also requires keeping tension on the knot and most guys admit it's challenging to tie on the water.

I can tie the Tony Pena knot in 30 seconds on the boat and know it's done correctly the first time. You can feel it go through the guides but it doesn't hang up on them or seem to work loose/wear down like the FG knot can. To me it is the best middle ground knot given all the trade offs, I'm surprised it's not more popular. I will sometimes tie a double uni if I get broken off and can see a bull red tailing 20 yards from me and my adrenaline is pumping, since it is quicker and more fool proof. It is not as strong or slim though, so as soon as the action is over, it's back to the Pena knot.


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## Smackdaddy53

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> It is stronger and smaller than a double uni, it is marginally larger and weaker than a properly tied FG knot. The diameter of the FG knot is 1x the leader plus 2x the braid. The diameter of the Pena knot is 2x the leader plus 1x the braid. The diameter of the double uni is 3x the leader plus 1x the braid.
> 
> My problem with the FG knot is that it is easy to not get the final weaves tight enough and it can slip off the leader, especially with hard fluro and slick braid. When I tie it at home, about 1/3 to 1/4 of the time I end up re-tying it because I feel it doesn't cinch tight enough. It also requires keeping tension on the knot and most guys admit it's challenging to tie on the water.
> 
> I can tie the Tony Pena knot in 30 seconds on the boat and know it's done correctly the first time. You can feel it go through the guides but it doesn't hang up on them or seem to work loose/wear down like the FG knot can. To me it is the best middle ground knot given all the trade offs, I'm surprised it's not more popular. I will sometimes tie a double uni if I get broken off and can see a bull red tailing 20 yards from me and my adrenaline is pumping, since it is quicker and more fool proof. It is not as strong or slim though, so as soon as the action is over, it's back to the Pena knot.


Have you tried a Crazy Alberto? I’m going to look the Tony Peña up and tie it.


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## Gatorgrizz27

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Have you tried a Crazy Alberto? I’m going to look the Tony Peña up and tie it.


I have. It's pretty similar to the Tony Pena knot, but I found it hung up in my guides slightly more due to the tag end of the leader facing forwards, and it is a little fatter. The braid also wears some running through the tip top. The Pena knot is an overhand knot tied in the leader rather than doubling it, then the braid is tied almost the same way. When you pull it through the tip top though, the overhand knot in the leader takes most of the wear, so it seems to hold up a little better throughout the day.

I prefer the second picture shown if you google "Tony Pena knot", then hit images. It is black and white hand drawn and shows it being finished off with a uni knot on the tag end above it.


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## Cam

Every knot that runs through guides is going to weaken. With a few exceptions there really isn't a need to run leader through guides. If you avoid running your knots through guides, braid break offs even at the knot become rare.


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## Smackdaddy53

Cam said:


> Every knot that runs through guides is going to weaken. With a few exceptions there really isn't a need to run leader through guides. If you avoid running your knots through guides, braid break offs even at the knot become rare.


I have zero issues with running a 20# mono/20# braid transition knot through my guides all day, every trip. I build custom rods and found that this works fine with recoil guides as long as you don’t go smaller than a 7 on running guides or they will break from repeated flexing. I may re-tie a new leader on before every trip but that’s it and I have not lost a fish or lure due to a weak knot. To keep a transition knot from running through the guides you would have to use such a short leader you may as well just tie the braid directly to the lure. Some guys use a foot to 18” of leader tied to a small swivel but that kills sensitivity and ends up getting reeled to the tip top and breaking the insert. I like a 4-5’ mono leader to add just a little shock absorption and keep from having to cut braid every time I change lures. I despise clips and quick connects and am a huge fan of a simple loop knot to my lure. Different strokes for different folks I guess.


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## Cam

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I have zero issues with running a 20# mono/20# braid transition knot through my guides all day, every trip. I build custom rods and found that this works fine with recoil guides as long as you don’t go smaller than a 7 on running guides or they will break from repeated flexing.


As I said, there is no reason to run leader through guides most of the time and any extra friction on a knot is going to weaken it. Weaken it enough to be an issue is going to depend on a lot of factors. Ultimately though, why risk it?


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## Smackdaddy53

Cam said:


> As I said, there is no reason to run leader through guides most of the time and any extra friction on a knot is going to weaken it. Weaken it enough to be an issue is going to depend on a lot of factors. Ultimately though, why risk it?


I get what you are saying, I just tie a new leader before the knot’s integrity is compromised. Trust me, if I had any doubt that the knot would hold up I would not use it. 
What kind of setup do you fish with most of the time throwing lures for light inshore species? I use mainly baitcasters on medium power extra fast action rods 6’2” to 6’5” with recoil guides and 20 pound Sufix832 or Diawa J-Braid. I use the same length of leader and same line on my spinning rod when I’m fishing light lures and making super long casts on windier days.


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## Gatorgrizz27

Cam said:


> Every knot that runs through guides is going to weaken. With a few exceptions there really isn't a need to run leader through guides. If you avoid running your knots through guides, braid break offs even at the knot become rare.


To each their own. I like to run a 3' fluro leader for abrasion resistance around oyster bars, and I fish a lot of tidal creeks where I'm wanting to drop the lure in the water 6" from the exposed grass, as that is where the fish hang out. I can't cast that accurately with my lure hanging 3' away from the rod tip. I'm sure I could use more casting practice, but the way I do it works for my needs.


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## Smackdaddy53

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> To each their own. I like to run a 3' fluro leader for abrasion resistance around oyster bars, and I fish a lot of tidal creeks where I'm wanting to drop the lure in the water 6" from the exposed grass, as that is where the fish hang out. I can't cast that accurately with my lure hanging 3' away from the rod tip. I'm sure I could use more casting practice, but the way I do it works for my needs.


I’m not a huge fan of Salt Strong but they did a controlled experiment with 20# mono and 25# flourocarbon recently (they kept the diameters as a constant) and the mono beat the flourocarbon in the abrasion category by quite a bit. There are a couple of myths surrounding flourocarbon it seems. I fish around shell quite a bit and 20# Trilene Big Game has never let me down. $8 for a few years supply...SOLD!


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