# Honda motor for Copperhead?



## MArbo (Jul 17, 2010)

I'm still debating on which motor to buy for my new Copperhead. A friend of mine told me not to decide until I looked at Honda. I found some Honda motors for sale (new) on the Internet that were not any more expensive than the Tohatsu. I plan on buying a 50 hp motor with side console setup. Can anyone give me thier thoughts on a Honda outboard for the Copperhead with side console? I checked the weight and interestingly enough it seems the 50hp Honda does not weight any more than the 50hp 2 stroke Tohatsu!


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

I was surprised when I saw the weight of their motors back when I was looking at outboards for my Copperhead.
But Ultimstely, it was between Yamaha and Tohatsu.
The Yamaha 25hp was around $600 cheaper, but I went with the Tohatsu for the extra 5hp. 
I ordered a tohatsu but they were on back order so they sent me the Nissan.


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

I had a used 30 4stroke and the motor ran hard but I was always having carb issues and nobody including the honda dealerships want to work on them. The 50 is fuel injected so you should elimanate that problem. The big thing to remember is that the tohatsu comes with everything you need binnacle control, prop, rmp gauge and wiring harness. The others dont and that adds up quick.


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## ko (Jun 9, 2007)

Having owned both Hondas and Tohatsus they are both great motors but overall I have had less problems with the Tohatsus. The Honda will be more quiet but the 2-stroke Hatsu will make more torque. You will have to change the oil and buy filters in the Honda while the hatsu will not need oil changes but will require 2-stroke oil. I use Penzoil TCW3 from Wallmart at around 13 bucks a gallon it is not too expensive. 

As Makin Moves pointed out, the Hatsu comes with everything and the Honda does not. Also, the hatsu published weight is "wet" and includes prop and fluids and so on, while the Honda weight is "dry" with no fluids or prop or extras.


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## Bob_Rogers (Oct 14, 2009)

Honda ever fix that dissimilar metal corrosion problem they have with their lower units? Its not like they don't know about it, seemed more like they didn't care.


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## nate. (Nov 12, 2009)

i know very little about the honda motors and my knowledge of the copperhead isnt that much better. i do know that the guys at ECC and many of their customers that are using 50 hp motors on both the caimen and lostmen are absolutely in love with the honda 50....


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

Both are good motors and you are not going to go wrong with either.  Honestly, a few pounds here or there is not going to hurt you either way.  What you will want to do is pay attention to the local shops that will service the engine if needed and how good or bad they may be. If you like the Honda but the service center is an hour away, that may not be worth your while if the tohatsu service center is 10 minutes away, or vice versa.  And as someone else mentioned.  The tohatsu, you will just continuous have to add oil and carry a small amount as a just in case thing.  The honda you will have to change the oil and filter and that is not a big deal unless you have the mechanical skills of a grape.  Which ever engine you get, spend the money and buy the service manual which will tell you exactly how to do quite a bit of work required of either engine.  I have had a honda and it was great. I now have a hotsu and it too is great.  At the time of purchase, the hotsu was just cheaper, by about 1000 bucks.


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

I have no experience really with honda marine motors, but love the car company . however I have seen several newer boats with honda outboards being towed in by seatow lately. We asked about it a few months ago when we saw the seatow guy bringing one in and he told us he has been towing alot of honda's recently. He believed they are pretty suceptable to ethanol issues. 
Once again I have no personal issues with them, this was just what I observed and heard from a seatow operator.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

I believe the weight of the two motors is about the same. 50 Hatsu is 205 dry, 213 with prop and oil, Honda is 214.

ECC uses Honda's a lot. The old hit I've heard is the dissimilar metal issue, but I can not confirm if this is through out all the engines or certain sizes.

Something to consider, from the best that I understand most manufactures typically will not sell a box motor directly to a customer on 25/30 HP up. Not sure if you were considering rigging it yourself.

Performance wise I would expect the Hatsu to have better hole shot but fuel mileage might go to the Honda. However this could change...


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## skinnywater3 (Feb 8, 2009)

I think honda would be a better choice atleast until hotzoo figures out their vapor lock problems


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

What problems? What size/HP motors. What Years? I remember hearing about this with older Zuk 90's. But it was related to ethanol if my memory serves me correctly. 

Cheers


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## skinnywater3 (Feb 8, 2009)

I know they have been having problems in recent years and it was supposed to be fixed with the 2010 model but evidently was not... The effected motors were the midrange models. I know of a few 50 hps that were messed up


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

Thanks for the heads up.


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

The handful of hatsu engines that had problems are just that, a handful. And that is all that has ever been reported. A small percentage from every manufacturer is usual and allowable by any companies standards that produces large quantities of anything. There was a guide with a 60 etec that evinrude stalled for months on replacing while they tried and could not fix it. That was on FS for a while. There are tens of thousands of the TLDI's running fine. Now if there are so many problems, where is it that everyone is complaining. Where are the claims to back up all these problems?

I went and talked to my mechanic about this supposed issue. I was told these are rumors from intardnet forums like these and they are not seeing these problem"s". Yes, there were a few reported throughout the country, key word being a few. But the bigger problem they are having is people reading all this and then when anything happens with their engines, they are calling it vapor lock from people that can't even change the oil on their own vehicles. 

I have had a 50 tldi for the past two and a half years and it runs very strong and reliable and I have the utmost confidence in it with about 200 hours on it.

In terms of paying attention to motor issues, repairs, and problems. One of the best forums for watching this stuff and learning about fixing your engine is over on iboats engine forum sections. Lots of good info to go along with buying the manual for your engine.

http://forums.iboats.com/


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

tohatsu has 4 year warranty why worry


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## beavis (Dec 11, 2006)

all engines usually come with some kind of warranty, but who wants to be off the water waiting for something to be fixed


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## nate. (Nov 12, 2009)

> I know they have been having problems in recent years and it was supposed to be fixed with the 2010 model but evidently was not... The effected motors were the midrange models. I know of a few 50 hps that were messed up


tohatsu's fix was a noisy external fuel pump. mickey mouse bs repair at best. id be pissed........


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

anyone have more than hearsay/internets keyboard cowboy reporting?


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## Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

> anyone have more than hearsay/internets keyboard cowboy reporting?



*<insert crickets chirping here>*


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## copperhead (May 30, 2008)

Nothing wrong with either MFG to me. I would agree that the best local service would be a factor as well as total initial cost. We've done a bunch of 40/50 TLDI's Tohatsu's with no issues and I've been impressed. Nothing but good experiences with Honda's too. Have to say the Tohatsu's offer better HP/Performance/$$ ratio tho'. Just my thoughts, but I'd look at the Yammies and Etec's also, if that would add to the confusion.


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

Make sure local service is at the top of the list!!
When I had problems with my motor, it was hell waiting around for the only warranty Tohatsu mechanic around town to be available to check it out.
Although once he checked it out, it was nothing but greatness from their end. 

I could have sent it anywhere else and got it over with, but it would have "voided the warranty". 
The problem got resolved, just a little longer than I would have hoped for.
And it was because there's only one local guy for them down here in south Florida, and he's also their "latin america" warranty specialist. 
So he kept flying from country to country and I had to wait for him to get back.


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## MArbo (Jul 17, 2010)

Response to iMacattack: Thanks for your input on the weight of both the Hotsu TLDI and Honda 50's. That's very helpful! Sounds like you've done alot of looking into both motors at some point. Can I pose a few more questions? What exactly is the dissimilar metal issue with the Honda you mentioned? Also, you mention the weight of the Hotsu at 213 with prop and oil. You mention the weight of the Honda at 214. Would this include everything for the Honda - prop, fluids, etc., ready to fish? Also, which model Honda are we talking about? I've been looking at them on the Web and have noticed there are several different models to choose from? Which model do you think would serve me best? I have no desire to rig myself, but would have Mel down at Ankona rig the whole thing up for me. Also, what everyone calls "hole shot" is not a big deal to me. Thanks a lot for your input!!!!


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

Weights I quoted are for each manufacture's "lightest" version. Honestly they are so close it's really not a decision issue IMHO.

I saw some older Honda's that exhibited some corrosion in the mid sections. I know that the newer ones have more layers of paint to help with this.

Either motor will serve you well. Look at total cost, warranty and serviceability in your area and make a decision from there. You can't go wrong with either.


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## skinnywater3 (Feb 8, 2009)

> anyone have more than hearsay/internets keyboard cowboy reporting?





> The mechanic checked out my outboard and figured out the problem.
> He told me the parts that need replacing are the ISC valve, and the high pressure fuel pump.
> 
> Fuel pump is costing me $367.80 and the valve is costing $87.
> ...


just sayin...


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## Gramps (Nov 1, 2007)

> > anyone have more than hearsay/internets keyboard cowboy reporting?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Paint It Black's motor is a 30hp 4stroke. Not a TLDI.


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## skinnywater3 (Feb 8, 2009)

True, my point is that its a Nissan/Tohastsu


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

And yet his is the only one that seams to be having a problem. Plenty of other Nissan/Tohatsu owners here with the same skiff and are not experiencing the same problems. 

In his defense the Waterman I run had a lot of fuel related problem with the 40 Yamaha in the first 30 hours. It was in the shop three times to have the carbs replaced each time. Culprit eth-fuel. Since the carb replacements (all three) we have changed our fuel strategy and used eth-treatment and more religious fuel water separator replacement schedule. Motor has over 100 hours on it now and not a problem since the 30 hour mark. Do I blame Yamaha? Fuel? Honestly problem went away after we changed our refueling strategy. 

Sometime despite our best intentions we can be our own worst enemy at the expense of a manufacture.


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## skinnywater3 (Feb 8, 2009)

fair enough but With PIB's mechanic telling him he needs to replace the ISC valve and install a high pressure fuel pump signs point to vapor lock issues. And I'm sure if anyone is careful about what fuel they run its him.

Not trying to stir the pot just want to save someone else the hassle


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

Fuel rail technology between TLDI and 4 Stroke is quite different. TLDI uses a low-pressure air/fuel delivery system. 25/30 uses an electronic fuel injection system. Short of cosmetic/tiller controls the 25/30 the exact same motor that Mercury uses. I'm sure if there was a vapor lock issue with those motors it would be more prevalent on the "internets". And yes, your trying to stir the pot. LOL!  ;D


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## Alonzo_Sotillo (Oct 9, 2009)

Let me just say that I told Paintitblack to get a YAMAHA from the get go! Service centers are plentiful down here! My 40 has 240 trouble free hours in the last year running regular gas!


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

> Let me just say that I told Paintitblack to get a YAMAHA from the get go! Service centers are plentiful down here! My 40 has 240 trouble free hours in the last year running regular gas!


I wanted a Yamaha from the start myself, but thy don't offer a 30hp. 
But anyway, the money I've spent having this one repaired, would have made the price difference in a yammy 40hp..... Lol


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## out-cast (Jan 27, 2009)

> > Let me just say that I told Paintitblack to get a YAMAHA from the get go! Service centers are plentiful down here! My 40 has 240 trouble free hours in the last year running regular gas!
> 
> 
> I wanted a Yamaha from the start myself, but thy don't offer a 30hp.
> But anyway, the money I've spent having this one repaired, would have made the price difference in a yammy 40hp..... Lol


And the Yamaha would've had the same problems your having now. Water + fuel= :'(


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

> In his defense the Waterman I run had a lot of fuel related problem with the 40 *Yamaha *in the first 30 hours. It was in the shop three times to have the carbs replaced each time. *Culprit eth-fuel*. Since the carb replacements (all three) we have changed our fuel strategy and used eth-treatment and more religious fuel water separator replacement schedule. Motor has over 100 hours on it now and not a problem since the 30 hour mark. Do I blame Yamaha? Fuel? Honestly problem went away after we changed our refueling strategy.
> 
> Sometime despite our best intentions we can be our own worst enemy at the expense of a manufacture.


Yamaha + eth-fuel - fuel stabilizer = trouble


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## joshuabward (Apr 3, 2010)

Carbureted+2stroke=Reliability


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## Gramps (Nov 1, 2007)

2 stroke or 4 stroke. Fuel Injected or Carbureted. Ethanol Fuel SUCKS! Always run a fuel / water separator & fuel additive(s).

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1229311383

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-412201.html

http://www.yamahaoutboardparts.com/forum2/recurring-carb-problems-th5472.html

http://www.boatus.com/news/e10_0706.htm

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f117/running-fuel-out-of-an-outboard-41533.html

Google search: "Yamaha ethanol problems jets"

Not trying to be an a-hat, but we have to address the issue.


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## iMacattack (Dec 11, 2006)

> Not trying to be an a-hat, but we have to address the issue.


X2! Stop putting drinking corn into or fuel!


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## FSUfisher (Jul 16, 2007)

Ahhhhh! I can't believe I missed this topic as I could have offered some halfway valuable input (maybe).

My 50 hp Honda is a 2006, and I must say I am more than impressed with it. I have had ZERO issues with it so far, and I run the crap out of it. I have pictures of the boat, lower unit and bent stainless steel prop to prove it. I can't say anything for the other motors mentioned, and I'm sure all outboards these days are very competitively built. I know from first-hand experience that my motor (which I know has higher than average hours on it from myself and especially the previous owner) runs like a top. I take good care of it mechanically but am not particular. My idea of avoiding ethanol issues is to keep the gas tank between 1/4 and 1/2 full and run the boat every weekend. Hope this helps anyone interested in buying the Honda.

BTW, it doesn't have the pickup of a 2-smoker, but it has enough to pull two wakeboarders, and goes pretty darn fast for the way it's set up. As far as the corrosion issue on these motors, I'm not aware of it.



And X3 on the ethanol nonsense!


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