# Fly Backing Help



## Get Tight! (Feb 3, 2020)

I just bought a Hardy Fortuna XDS 12+ To pair with my T&T 12 for Tarpon and am looking to put backing on it. The listed capacity is 550 of 40 lb Dacron + Line, which seems like plenty. However, I’ve read a little to much about Dacron vs Gelspun and am definitely overthinking this now. My local shop told me to put 550+ of 30Lb Dacron on it and be done with it, as it will be sufficient, cheaper and won’t slice your hand off. Any thoughts?


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## hamptonsurf (Dec 17, 2018)

Agreed


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## Water Bound (Dec 12, 2018)

Just make sure they fill it to capacity with the fly line you will be using. Under filling=slower retrieve


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

Get the gel spun, wear a glove and or a stripping guard. You should probably be wearing gloves anyway when tugging on 12wt sized fish.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

Imagine 550 yards, 1650 feet + another 100 feet of fly line.
1/4 mile is 1320 feet

Your in trouble when a fish can get over 300 yards out and the boat is not yet following the fish.


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## tunataker (Jul 8, 2018)

I recently started switching all my reels to Cortland C16 - Seaguar Threadlock is another good hollow core braid. No need for bulky knots anymore. The direct splicing is much cleaner. More expensive solution though.


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## Sabalo (Sep 6, 2019)

Hatch 68lb is a great backing, thin and won’t cut you. I prefer to fish without gloves so I am averse to gelspun for the chance of getting cut when pandemonium starts on a poons initial surge. I am pretty good about making sure my fingers are out of the backings way anyway...but like having the non cutting backing just in case More $ than the Dacron/micron. But 550 yrds of Dacron is more than enough for tarpon, even 150plus


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## LowKeyCapt (Nov 30, 2017)

I use a combo Dacron/Gel. The Dacron fills the spool up with a top shot of Gel spun, 150yds or so to connect to the fly line. I like the gel spun because the diameter is smaller and will cut water easier than the dacron if the fish changes direction or swims sideways. I keep my fingers away from the spool until I have fly line back on the reel so cuts aren't a concern.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

LowKeyCapt said:


> will cut water easier than the dacron if the fish changes direction or swims sideways.


I might be all wet...  
but the large diameter of the 100' of fly line is something I've always thought of as a help fighting larger fish. 
Having the full line out being dragged through the water sideways has to have more of an affect on the fish than me hanging on to the rod.

Considering the small diameter of braid vs Dacron might be the same.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

I'll take on the biggest tarpon around with only 300 yards of 30lb dacron backing - and never feel under- equipped. I particularly like fl. yellow hi-viz dacron so I can see exactly where my angler's backing is in relation to hazards (we do a lot big tarpon in relatively small rivers... so we're never working them with a light drag at long distance the way you can out on the flats with little to cut you off in any direction...). I never want a big tarpon a long way from my angler.. Do that in my world and you'll not only lose the fly line but usually a good amount of backing as well (and I carry extra backing and extra lines on board for just that reason in the backcountry...).

I can see 500 yards of backing out in blue waters or working around reefs in less than 100 feet of water - but not for tarpon. It's just not needed unless your angler is physically impaired and you need to keep the reel diameter as large as possible to aid in line retrieval... 

Something a guy I know told me about marlin for instance on fly has really stuck with me (this is a guy who has beaten many big tarpon on fly in less than 12 minutes flat...). He got an invite to marlin fish down in central america where you not only have striped marlin but also both blues and blacks... He was the only fly angler aboard and finally got a shot in the cockpit and was advised to back off the drag to zero on his big stick and not add a speck of drag until the fish settled down... He didn't agree with the advice but went along with it and actually got to toss a fly at a small black marlin (less than 250lbs...). He made the presentation and actually hooked up solid on his first (and only) opportunity... His line screamed straight away from the boat to the rear - and only moments later with the line still screaming straight away - that small fish was actually jumping 100 yards in front of the boat... They're that fast... The slightest bit of drag would have broken him off from water pressure alone... For that sort of action 500 yards of braid - might not be enough... And no he did not land the fish - it came off fairly quickly. I'd have paid good money just to watch...


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## rkmurphy526 (Jun 9, 2018)

anyone ever use this stuff?

https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/world-wide-sportsman-magibraid-gel-spun-fly-line-backing

I had some Dacron on order, but Amazon seems to have lost it. Looks like this stuff above might be in stock at Bass Pro and I need it for the weekend.


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## timogleason (Jul 27, 2013)

lemaymiami said:


> I'll take on the biggest tarpon around with only 300 yards of 30lb dacron backing - and never feel under- equipped. I particularly like fl. yellow hi-viz dacron so I can see exactly where my angler's backing is in relation to hazards (we do a lot big tarpon in relatively small rivers... so we're never working them with a light drag at long distance the way you can out on the flats with little to cut you off in any direction...). I never want a big tarpon a long way from my angler.. Do that in my world and you'll not only lose the fly line but usually a good amount of backing as well (and I carry extra backing and extra lines on board for just that reason in the backcountry...).
> 
> I can see 500 yards of backing out in blue waters or working around reefs in less than 100 feet of water - but not for tarpon. It's just not needed unless your angler is physically impaired and you need to keep the reel diameter as large as possible to aid in line retrieval...
> 
> Something a guy I know told me about marlin for instance on fly has really stuck with me (this is a guy who has beaten many big tarpon on fly in less than 12 minutes flat...). He got an invite to marlin fish down in central america where you not only have striped marlin but also both blues and blacks... He was the only fly angler aboard and finally got a shot in the cockpit and was advised to back off the drag to zero on his big stick and not add a speck of drag until the fish settled down... He didn't agree with the advice but went along with it and actually got to toss a fly at a small black marlin (less than 250lbs...). He made the presentation and actually hooked up solid on his first (and only) opportunity... His line screamed straight away from the boat to the rear - and only moments later with the line still screaming straight away - that small fish was actually jumping 100 yards in front of the boat... They're that fast... The slightest bit of drag would have broken him off from water pressure alone... For that sort of action 500 yards of braid - might not be enough... And no he did not land the fish - it came off fairly quickly. I'd have paid good money just to watch...


Mako sharks will do that to you too. Line going out back and mako doing a backflip 10 feet in the air in front of the boat. The drag of the fly line was enough to break 20 lb tippet. I ended up cutting most of the running line off the fly line as casts were short and going to 30 lb homeboy leader with no fuse. It worked and thankfully only broke 1 rode over about 5 years of that craziness.


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## eightwt (May 11, 2017)

I use a biminni for a loop on backing. My question is has anyone ever had any type of backing using loop to loop cut the fly line loop?


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## Zika (Aug 6, 2015)

rkmurphy526 said:


> anyone ever use this stuff?
> 
> https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/world-wide-sportsman-magibraid-gel-spun-fly-line-backing
> 
> I had some Dacron on order, but Amazon seems to have lost it. Looks like this stuff above might be in stock at Bass Pro and I need it for the weekend.


Yes, I've used it and it worked fine. Private label for BPS, not sure who the actual manufacturer is.


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## Zika (Aug 6, 2015)

Haven't caught any marlin on fly, but a fair share on conventional and can confirm their incredible speed. But the Pacific sails I've tangled with on fly definitely put my 12-weight gear to the full test.


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## rkmurphy526 (Jun 9, 2018)

Zika said:


> Yes, I've used it and it worked fine. Private label for BPS, not sure who the actual manufacturer is.


Thanks! Funny enough, my Cortland Micron order showed up last night...I thought they lost the package, but apparently they found it!


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Make sure your reel hold that much backing combined with fly line. Just cause it says it will hold it may not be the case. But 550 seems like over kill


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

eightwt said:


> I use a biminni for a loop on backing. My question is has anyone ever had any type of backing using loop to loop cut the fly line loop?


I do the same and haven't had any problems.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Don't use gelspun, unless it's Rio's GSP 50 and even then, it's the dia of 20lb, but super smooth. I've seen too many fingers serious cut on a greyhounding fish and some were cut right down to the bone! So DON'T do it! Backing is made for a reason, to not only extend the length, but purposely be somewhat smoother than standasd braiding fishing lines and gel spun lines and adds diameter and some have a coating to help avoid fingers getting cut. Otherwise, people would use Spider Wire or Power Pro. But don't use them.

I know that Fortuna very well. The XDS 12+ ( or the previous model, the 12000 Series) is a monster reel, like the Tibor Pacific. Have you bought the reel yet? If not, consider stepping the the next size under, thou the 12+ does have the fast line pickup with that huge arbor, only heavier than the XDS 10/11/12 (Model # HREXDST030) which still holds 340yrds of 30lb dacron w/ a 12wt line and about 1oz less weight.

Anyway, the absolute best backing I've ever found and tested over many years just recently was introduced to me a few years back and I ended up doing a Backing Shootout to test all the really good and well known backing out there.

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/fly-reel-backing.55680/#post-468656

Bottom line is this, the backing you want to use on that reel is Seaguar Threadlock 16 strand Hollow Core in 80lb. Not sure if you can find a specialty fishing or offshore shop that can spool it up for you, but I doubt a fly shop will carry it. The diameter will equal around 30lb+ Dacron when spun off the reel, but on the reel, or zipped thru the guides or slid over your wet fingers, it lays flat to equal 60lb dacron wide to help avoid cutting. It's lso the most silky smooth backing I've found in over 30yrs of fly fishing and 28yrs of chasing tarpon on fly. It's not cheap, but if you can get a shop to spool it for you, then you can get the exact amount you need. Otherwise, you can buy a 600yrd spool, use what is needed (say 400yrs) then use the rest on another reel as a top shot. Or, top shot 300yrds each and then splice it into 40lb dacron or Cortland Micron. The hollow core makes it easy splice say with no knots. You just need a splicing needle.

We just put a monster 150lb poon to the boat on Friday and her first few launches in the air, are what dreams are made of. Robbie (rspehL here on microskiff), had his 12wt Hardy Zephrus putting some serious heat on that big girl and quite a few times I looked over to see the backing zipping over his wet fingers and even pinching the backing to the cork handle to try to stop and turn her on the multiple runs she made over the course of an hour in deep water. Bottom line is, his fingers never were cut. Maybe rspehL will chime in to testify to that. 

Now the people out there that know me well by now know I don't recommend people even touching the backing during a big poon battle and Robbie knew better, yet when you have a monster like that on the business end of your fly line, your brain kinda turns to jelly and a lot of the things we know we shouldn't do, goes out the window. So I understand. Still, he fought that big girl and did all the right things (well mostly ). I think she wore him out more than he wore her out. Lol Still, it was an epic battle!

Ted


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

eightwt said:


> I use a biminni for a loop on backing. My question is has anyone ever had any type of backing using loop to loop cut the fly line loop?


If I ever do a loop to loop connection from backing to fly line loop, no matter what rod, I'll double up the loop on the backing side, so it does 2 wraps around each leg of the flyline loop. To do that, you simple bring the spool or the reel twice through your large loop in your backing and then slowly work it down in a way that it pulls the 2 legs of the running line loop together. So you just doubled the area where the backing touches the loop on the fly line and it also helps to pull the loop in the fly line tighter together and allows it to zip thru the guides easier. So it helps to avoid getting your flyline loop cut (or at least the outer core getting cut). So I have no issues with my inshore setups, including smaller poons out to 9wts.

==================================================

For all you OCD anal retentive nuts out there, you can read on. Otherwise, I'm sure your eyes will glass over and you'll move on to whatever is more interesting to look at, like pictures. 

So then, the bigger rods (10wt and above) get a complete different setup on that connection and is a different subject. Normally on those, I'm doing a 50lb braided loop (see Tarpon Leaders pinned at the top of the Fly Fishing Forum). But with the Hollow Core Backing, I'm actually cutting off the fly line loop and splicing the hollow core up the running line of the fly line at least 3ft up and securing it at the end of the HC with 2 nail knots using 8-10 braid like SW Invisibraid, then whip finishing the end with 210 denier thread on a bobbin and then dressing those knots and several inches down the HC with liquid Fusion and allowing it to dry over night before reeling it back on the reel. So far, it's been a bulletproof connection and the most seamless connection you can get and the strongest with 3 ft of a Chinese thumb torcher cinching down on the running line of the fly line and there is really no way to break that connection.

So with that particular connection on my bigger rods, if I want to make the connection where the fly line can be interchangeable, I'll cut the hollowcore 3-6ft from the running line connection and then do a large loop (large enough to pass the spool of the reel or the entire reel thru the loop) and then do a Bimini loop in the backing. So that loop to loop connection will be far smaller than doing a loop to loop connection where you have a loop in the running line of the fly line. Makes sense? 

Until I got my hands on Hollow Core line, like I said, I used 50lb -6-10" braided mono loops. But I also experimented with doing a make shift FG knot from running line to my normal backing, like Cortland Micron or Rio GSP 50 (super smooth backing), where I would do a series of 50 sets of opposing half hitches (i.e. one half hitch one way and the next one tied in the opposite direction, like how some FG knots are done), all the way down the running line towards the end. You had to be careful to only do 5 sets at a time and work those up against the previous batch of 5 half hitches, then cinch those down. So once you get up to 2 inches of half hitches, then fully cinching it down, you can then Huffnagel them or do a Rizzuto finish (video on that below), then cinch that completely down, then clip the tag end of the running line, and then do one more Rizzuto finish around the braided backing, then cinch that completely down. At that point, you had cinch that knot completely down at least 3 times (but not too hard where it would cut the outer core of the running line), like what is shown in the attached video. Then melt the tag end of the backing with a lighter and then you can put a drop of super glue on the final Rizzuto finish and then apply Liquid Fusion on the entire FG style 1-2" knot (which is optional) and let it dry over night. The reason I do 50 sets of half hitches (like in the video) as oppose to 12- sets I do from braid to FC on my spinning rods, is mono or fluorocarbon (FC) is harder than fly line running line and it also has an inner core. So too short of an FG knot will cause the outer core to separate from the inner core and cause it to slip off the inner core and therefore break your connection. So I mostly did 50+ sets of those opposing half hitches just to be sure that wouldn't happen...and.. it hasn't slipped yet.






Believe me, it was a PITA to tie, but was also almost seamless thru the guides and bullet proof for the most part. But the Hollow Core Seagaur with a splicing needle was easier to do.



Ted Haas


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> If I ever do a loop to loop connection from backing to fly line loop, no matter what rod, I'll double up the loop on the backing side, so it does 2 wraps around each leg of the flyline loop. To do that, you simple bring the spool or the reel twice through your large loop in your backing and then slowly work it down in a way that it pulls the 2 legs of the running line loop together. So you just doubled the area where the backing touches the loop on the fly line and it also helps to pull the loop in the fly line tighter together and allows it to zip thru the guides easier. So it helps to avoid getting your flyline loop cut (or at least the outer core getting cut). So I have no issues with my inshore setups, including smaller poons out to 9wts.
> 
> ==================================================
> 
> ...



Glad to see you finally came to the dark side of hollow core lol. It's superior in every way.


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## Water Bound (Dec 12, 2018)

@Backwater - For the ultimate in strength and interchangeability, get yourself a reverse latch needle. Use it to create a loop in your backing and to put a loop onto your fly lines. No Biminis required and 100%


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Water Bound said:


> @Backwater - For the ultimate in strength and interchangeability, get yourself a reverse latch needle. Use it to create a loop in your backing and to put a loop onto your fly lines. No Biminis required and 100%


Save yourself some money, a latch needle isn't necessary. A piece of wire leader or a kinked piece of 20 lb mono does the job. 

The only hollow core I have tried that didn't work out was 40 lb Jerry brown.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Water Bound said:


> @Backwater - For the ultimate in strength and interchangeability, get yourself a reverse latch needle. Use it to create a loop in your backing and to put a loop onto your fly lines. No Biminis required and 100%


I like 80 lb hollow core if I'm doing this, it slides over the fly line easier. Also the same if I'm feeding the fly line into the backing without a loop as well. I will splice a 20 yard section of 80lb into the end of my backing

My backing is usually 40 lb up to 9 wt and then 60 lb for 10 wt and up. Not for breaking strength but for diameter. I will also splice a color change into my last 50 - 100 yards of backing depending on rod so I know where I'm at.

Still prefer the braided mono loop when adding a loop to the back of my fly line. When pulled down tight they shrink way down and are easier and quicker to rig.


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## Flyboy (Aug 26, 2019)

I do a double Bimini twist and it works flawlessly


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

eightwt said:


> I use a biminni for a loop on backing. My question is has anyone ever had any type of backing using loop to loop cut the fly line loop?


I tested this with single and twice through interlocking loops. Both held to the breaking strength of the line. The twice through buggered the coating less but neither broke at the interlock. There are pictures if you can hunt down that thread. Search for splicing or braided loops.

Found it for you — https://www.microskiff.com/threads/braided-loops-for-fly-lines-or.61496/


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