# NEWBIE needing basic suggestions



## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Hello fellow microskiff addicts,

I am new to the forum and at this point I have nothing but a glimmer in my eye for the project I am about to undertake; a 1978 Sears skiff with LOTS of nautical miles under its keel.

I'm at the point where I've measured out and napkin-sketched what I envision the final product will look like. First step is to prep the inside of the hull (actually, hulk is a better name for what I have), by cutting out the cross member box "seats" (3) which long ago detached from the hull; the floor pulses and vibrates laterally and vertically when under way in chop. Quite disturbing.

Question #1: What is the best power tool for this application and should I go electric or pneumatic?
Question #2: What grit abrasives are typically used to destroy the existing structure and before I begin to apply reinforcing glass to the hull?
Question #3: I have an old belt sander. Will the belt sander be useful in the demo portion of the project? I realize its shortcomings, however I am very skilled with my hands. 
Question #4: What is the suggested glass cloth-mat sequence when reinforcing the hull on the inside? I will be adding longitudinal stringers and a floor ( a flat one....not the mountain bike course on the original boat), before adding the obligatory bulkheads and casting/fishing deck.

OH, although I have a great deal of experience with epoxy fabrication (vacuum bagged RC sailplane wings and racing car aero parts), I believe the process of rebuilding this wreck will be easier in terms of compatibility of construction materials, if I use polyester resin; true? suggestions?








That's it for now. I'll make sure to document the project as i move along. 

Thanking you in advance,

Angel


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

Just an FYI, the sears gamefisher is made of some sort of plastic---it is not fiberglass.And, that center seat is not original.
All the original seating has lips that are "glued" down like what you see on the front deck. They were used for the reinforcement of the hull.
They all flexed.....I use to own one.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

The first thing you should check on is what @topnative2 mentioned about the plastic material of your hull. If that is the case, the following will probably not be useful. But here it is anyway:

Question #1: What is the best power tool for this application and should I go electric or pneumatic?
-I would go to a local Harbor Freight and get an electric $20 grinder. I bought one and it lasted thru an entire re-build and still works. While there, pick up some cut off discs for removing the old seats, and flap pads (I would get a few of each 36, 60, and 80 grit), and a few polycarbide abrasive discs, and of course all of your consumables: box of 2" chip brushes, nitrile gloves and mixing cups, etc.

Question #2: What grit abrasives are typically used to destroy the existing structure and before I begin to apply reinforcing glass to the hull?
-36, 60, 80. depends on what you are working on, the 36 may be overkill but if you want to go quickly, it may be helpful. Also get yourself some of the polycarbide discs. they look like:








Question #3: I have an old belt sander. Will the belt sander be useful in the demo portion of the project? I realize its shortcomings, however I am very skilled with my hands. 
-I would just get a random orbital sander (they're also like $20 at harbor freight)

Question #4: What is the suggested glass cloth-mat sequence when reinforcing the hull on the inside? I will be adding longitudinal stringers and a floor ( a flat one....not the mountain bike course on the original boat), before adding the obligatory bulkheads and casting/fishing deck.
-Depends on what you have to start with. I would suggest at least 1 layer of a biaxial fabric (12 or 17oz) on the bottom, followed by stringers which you can tab in with 6" biax "tape". Also, what material will you be using? If plywood, you can use 6 or 10oz fabric for the false floor, decks, etc, and maybe even the bulkheads (although a 12oz biax is probably better for the bulkheads in my opinion).

OH, although I have a great deal of experience with epoxy fabrication (vacuum bagged RC sailplane wings and racing car aero parts), I believe the process of rebuilding this wreck will be easier in terms of compatibility of construction materials, if I use polyester resin; true? suggestions?
-Again, it all depends on what materials you will be using for the construction. If there will be any wood, do not use poly, it will be a waste of time, use EPOXY instead! Even if not using wood, I still highly suggest using epoxy as it is more forgiving than polyester.


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Drats.....does that mean my dreams are short lived? I am wondering whether with enough roughening of the plastic, if epoxy would not be able to form a bond. Experiment? The middle seat: yes, the kid who owned it before me cobbled up that coffin in the middle. 

Could I at least install a flat floor on the thing? Murder on the ankles. 
Thanks for the heads up. Let's see what other solutions come up.

On the procedural and tooling front, what great advice. To both of you, thanks so very much. I think epoxy based it will be. I'll run a test to see if the "plastic" (probably blow-molded) will stick to the epoxy. If it does, I'm set.

Sincere thanks!

Angel


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

My "conch" engineering,,,,,,I cut a piece of plywood to fit the area in front of the middle bench seat to the front "deck".....then I installed two 1x2's strips onto the walls of the fr. deck and mid. seat(I think I did the sides the same way)......attached 2 hinges to the front deck and plywood....now one has a deck that lifts up for storage and a 6 gal. low profile plastic gas tank will fit under it...gives the boat a long front deck...remember to cut a whole in the new deck in front of the seat so u can lift it up

TODAY......I would use a glassed nidacore or glassed foam for the font deck and for the rear floor to make flat.......

On the rear seat I put a alum. track and a tempress bucket seat...worked for me

I never worried about hull failure .....use to take out to reef line in the upper keys and all the way over to hells bay in the park ....many times to Nest key..... even bounced it off a bull shark on a flat ....young and dumb


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Great tips. I take it that you did not attach any lateral supports to both sides of the hull for the “deck “ to rest against. It was only attached to the front and middle “seats”. 

I’m going to experiment with epoxy and see if it will adhere to the plastic. I’ve had limited experience with this, but my intuition tells me that with sufficient surface prep, an epoxy 1708 first layer on the entire inside of the hull will stick. If that works then the rest is gtg. 

Have a safe and relaxing weekend folks. 

Angel


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

yobata said:


> The first thing you should check on is what @topnative2 mentioned about the plastic material of your hull. If that is the case, the following will probably not be useful. But here it is anyway:
> 
> Question #1: What is the best power tool for this application and should I go electric or pneumatic?
> -I would go to a local Harbor Freight and get an electric $20 grinder. I bought one and it lasted thru an entire re-build and still works. While there, pick up some cut off discs for removing the old seats, and flap pads (I would get a few of each 36, 60, and 80 grit), and a few polycarbide abrasive discs, and of course all of your consumables: box of 2" chip brushes, nitrile gloves and mixing cups, etc.
> ...


This is starting to make sense. I’ll be testing the epoxy next week. Suggested dealers and brand/composition of epoxy??

Angel


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

I think I did the sides too....nuts and bolts.....just do not remember....mid 80's


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

I also believe it is made from fiber reinforced polyethylene.

Not much will stick to it permanently. Some things will stick temporarily and those products will be expensive.

Before you get ahead of yourself, verify what that is made from.


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## richg99 (Nov 28, 2009)

Just wondering...if that plastic is the same plastic that is used to make kayaks, only plastic "welding" will normally work. If so, plastic welding may allow you to do some decking etc. by forming supports from the same material. Incidentally, that same material is often found in five-gallon buckets.


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Will definitely verify adhesion before proceeding any further. Just in case......where can I found a skiff hull that no one wants???? LOL. I know far too well the ways of the world. If this one can't be improved I will move on.
Thanks gentlemen,

Angel


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Well so far I have verified adhesion to a test section of hull Roughed out with 30-40 grit and well-cleaned with MEK/Acetone....... epoxy and cloth WILL stick to it. After 48 hours, bond "seems" to be substantial, at least with the down-home, "pull" test. So, best place to acquire Tyvek overalls?? Should I get a dozen or so? What do you folks usually get? I'm ready.............
Thanks,

Angel


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Angel Sanchez-Figueras said:


> Well so far I have verified adhesion to a test section of hull Roughed out with 30-40 grit and well-cleaned with MEK/Acetone....... epoxy and cloth WILL stick to it. After 48 hours, bond "seems" to be substantial, at least with the down-home, "pull" test. So, best place to acquire Tyvek overalls?? Should I get a dozen or so? What do you folks usually get? I'm ready.............
> Thanks,
> 
> Angel


Amazon sells them for ~$8-12 each. I have also found them at the local Lowes although a bit more expensive. You CAN reuse them, but they will eventually wear and tear, so maybe only get a few??


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Thanks. Will get them this weekend. For some reason, I'm having a bit of hesitation about taking the grinder and "going to town". Then again, "What's the worst that can happen??" 

LOL.

Angel


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Angel Sanchez-Figueras said:


> Thanks. Will get them this weekend. For some reason, I'm having a bit of hesitation about taking the grinder and "going to town". Then again, "What's the worst that can happen??"
> 
> LOL.
> 
> Angel


Best thing is that everything is repairable on your boat.

Get to town.


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Got grinder, misc abrasive wheels (miracle workers) and cut the center coffin out. Found some minor cracks in hull. These will be addressed first. Left little “console” for sonar in order to get some pre fishing in before I go whole hog on the tear down. 

What foam material is used for the deck and how many layers of cloth (1708?) does it get. My plan is to run one stringer down the keel and another mid beam on either side of keel stringer. Then glass sandwiched marine ply floor. Then three formers (bulkheads) for the foredeck. We will primarily fish from this deck. Two guys 160-200 pounds each. Coosa? I am starting to discover that glasses ply is HEAVY!!

Can I make the stringers out of composite board as well? What thickness for these also. I know I will be sandwiching between glass cloth before bonding to hull and adding floor. Leaning towards all foam. The center coffin was 3/4 marine ply and it weighed two tons!!!

Thanks. 

Angel


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Angel Sanchez-Figueras said:


> View attachment 17651
> View attachment 17652
> Got grinder, misc abrasive wheels (miracle workers) and cut the center coffin out. Found some minor cracks in hull. These will be addressed first. Left little “console” for sonar in order to get some pre fishing in before I go whole hog on the tear down.
> 
> ...


What size marine ply are you using? 3/8" with 6oz cloth is plenty (must use epoxy with wood) and doesn't weigh that much. I used it for bulkheads, floor, and decks. my stringers are 1x2 dimensional lumber (pine) but I got the "select/prime" versions because they were straight with no knots. Glassed those in with 6" biax 'tape'.

You can use composites for bulkheads, decks, floor but will have to beef up the glass schedule. When using wood, the wood provides the strength so you are mostly encapsulating it and using the fiberglass cloth for abrasion resistance; when using foam, the fiberglass skins (thick and biax instead of cloth) provide the strength...


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Excellent. No the ply I took out of the center box was 3/4”, non—glassed but the builder resined the heck out of it. 

Your ideas make perfect sense. 
How many stringers....3 or 3?
What is the roving that some builders use in the keel structure.....looks like rope?

Thanks Yobata. 

Angel


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

3 or 4? (..early in the AM....)


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Angel Sanchez-Figueras said:


> Excellent. No the ply I took out of the center box was 3/4”, non—glassed but the builder resined the heck out of it.
> 
> Your ideas make perfect sense.
> How many stringers....3 or 3?
> ...


I have seen where people will soak a rope in epoxy to fill the keel void, but I'm not sure that is needed. I have a 14' skiff and used 2 stringers, but also added some ribs to help support the false floor (sometimes called a sole). The spaces between the stringers and ribs (once they are properly glassed in) were filled with 2lbs 2 part expanding flotation foam, including the keel void.

Here is a link to a post which shows my layout for the ribs/stringers: https://www.microskiff.com/threads/build-thread-1967-johnsen-starfisher-14.36427/page-7#post-344873


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Superb

Much obliged. 

Angel


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

IMHO...remember I use to own one....
The original design was self supporting, as in the seats were the support for the hull---instead of stringers---- the hull most likely cracked because of the center seat modification was not done correctly.Also, you will be adding a good amount of weight between the wood and glass layup for such a narrow hull.The work u will have to do to get a level reinforced deck on your hull will make u go bald.

I would like to suggest an alternative and then I will shut up.

This is assuming you will be "leaving" the mid. seat in.
By the way, this seat had a approx. 14" compartment in the middle that was suppose to act as a livewell/cooler with the rest of the seat being filled w/ foam as all the seats were.

I would strip off all the old paint and lay in a layer of biax or s-glass(mo' better/$$$) w/ your epoxy. Glass back in your seats so there is no gap between the hull and the seat structure.
Glass in some nidacore between the first openings/runners (above the bilge run) for a deck leaving the "bilge" run/area unobstructed for drainage to the transom area.Do this between the front deck and mid seat and then from the mid seat to the back seat.
The hull will be plenty strong w/o a lot of weight.
Make your front casting deck level it between the front deck/seat to the middle seat and hinge it. Now u have storage for "stuff"......u will need it. If u want a flat deck in the area in front of the back seat, just work up some nidacore and drop it in

Good luck...like to see what u do with it.


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Too late. Middle seat was canabalized many years ago to a 3/4” plywood abortion that weighed 60 pounds. Monstrous. 

I am slowly evolving the project in your suggested direction as you so wisely pointed out......it’s NARROW. Surprisingly, it is rather stable in roll. Probably due to its pseudo-bihull design. 

I find myself waking up at ungodly hours coming up with variations in the mods. Will definitely keep your suggestions in front of me 

Thanks Topnative

Angel


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

What suggested work up is needed for nidacore decking. Thickness of nidacore and cloth on both sides. Trying hard to get away from wood but I’m on the fence right now.


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Thanks again topnative!
Angel


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

Try these guys and/or call them.West epoxy use to have a manual out called>> fiberglass boat repair and maintenance<< catalog #002-550.....nidacore does not take a lot of material and there are some pre-made panelsf available nida is only for flat horizontal use

http://bateau2.com/howto-index.php


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Excellent. I'm pre-fishing this weekend and that might be the end of it for some time as I tear into the beast and get it ready for the first tournament in January. As long as I can lay down the hull reinforcement and the flat floor plus maybe one former and deck at the back I think we'll be able to fish it in that configuration at the first tournament and then continue to build from there on as time allows. For how long does the epoxy retain its stickiness on the surface??


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Our tournaments are held both in bays (harbors) and out in open ocean (coastline and islands). In bays we fish for spotted bay bass; mean little creatures with a really BAD attitude. They are freight trains. The open ocean species are either calico bass or sand bass; the former being a fantastic sport fish to catch as they are usually caught in very shallow water, in kelp lined rocky areas. It's white knuckle fishing at its finest many times. Here is a sample at weigh in, my wonderful brother and me. Second photo is weigh in again, this time a nice home guard calico.


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Serious demo work begun yesterday. Took three hours to get about a 1/4 of what needs to be done before I can add 1708 to the glass floor to beef it up a bit. Then either nidacore or ply infrastructure and flat sole length of the boat. It was very flexible. (Resembled a trampoline on plane).


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

OK friends, question:

I'm almost ready to place a layer of cloth/mat on the hull floor as it is in my opinion too flexible and not very puncture resistant. The stock hull is a very thin chopper gun mat. Should I use 1708, 1208, bi-axial cloth??? I know Yobata recommended the biaxial cloth; will this add too much weight or is the 1708/1208 material heavier once laminated? All lamination will be epoxy resin. I will be adding stringers, some cross members and a flat sole after this.

Thanks
Angel


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Angel Sanchez-Figueras said:


> OK friends, question:
> 
> I'm almost ready to place a layer of cloth/mat on the hull floor as it is in my opinion too flexible and not very puncture resistant. The stock hull is a very thin chopper gun mat. Should I use 1708, 1208, bi-axial cloth??? I know Yobata recommended the biaxial cloth; will this add too much weight or is the 1708/1208 material heavier once laminated? All lamination will be epoxy resin. I will be adding stringers, some cross members and a flat sole after this.
> 
> ...


both 12(08) and 17(08) is biax cloth. 1208 is 12 oz biax with mat on the other side, 1708 is 17oz biax with mat on the other side. If using epoxy, the mat is not required (mat is needed if using polyester resins). both of these biax cloths are available without the mat (this link may be helpful - https://boatbuildercentral.com/products.php?cat=Fiberglass+wide+knitted+fabric)

It will help, but don't expect one layer to stiffen it up completely. I added a layer of 12oz biax to the bottom of my skiff, and still needed stringers, ribs and a sole to stiffen up to my satisfaction...


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

AND...12 oz will take 12 ounces of resin and 17 will take 17 ounces of resin by WEIGHT per yard. This is ideal but amateurs go way over with resin - just the way it is. So 10 yards will take a bit over a gallon of resin at 9lbs per gallon.

Just want you to know what to expect.


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Excellent. The fact that no mat will be required just saved me a ton of epoxy and weight. The hull by the way is ridiculously light. Let's see how the first round goes.
Thanks!!!!


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Hello folks. Moving right along. I found a very large roll of glass cloth I used to lay up some racecar parts many years ago. Can one of you identify what type of cloth this and can I use it to lay as the first layer of glass and epoxy on the interior of the hull. 

Thanks!!
Angel


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## richg99 (Nov 28, 2009)

I know NOTHING about various sizes/classifications of fiberglass cloth, but...I imagine even a knowledgeable guy would be helped if you re-posted that picture... with a ruler... laid on the cloth. I suspect the number of threads covering a particular area would help figure out what you have. ?????


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## seapro17sv (Feb 3, 2015)

richg99 said:


> I know NOTHING about various sizes/classifications of fiberglass cloth, but...I imagine even a knowledgeable guy would be helped if you re-posted that picture... with a ruler... laid on the cloth. I suspect the number of threads covering a particular area would help figure out what you have. ?????


Someone with more knowledge than me will hopefully chime in here, but just today on the Bateau a question about a particular cloth came up and someone said some cloth will work with polyester resin but not with epoxy. I have no idea whether that's true, but worth asking an expert for sure prior to doing any lay up.


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

Working on hull today. Will take that ruler picture and post it.
Thanks.
Angel


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