# Hell's Bay boats



## formerWAflyfisher

They are expensive. The make great boats but they are in the top tier of the market. In that price range I think you could do better, take a look at Flyod Skiffs, East Cape, Maverick or Ankona/Salt Marsh. Just to name a few. I say this as a person that owns a used HB. I don’t think I would ever buy a new one.


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## Charles Hadley

Research Drake boatworks outlaw if you are looking for entry nice poling skiff also


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## loganlogan

formerWAflyfisher said:


> They are expensive. The make great boats but they are in the top tier of the market. In that price range I think you could do better, take a look at Flyod Skiffs, East Cape, Maverick or Ankona/Salt Marsh. Just to name a few. I say this as a person that owns a used HB. I don’t think I would ever buy a new one.


I just contacted shadowcast, since it was mentioned he's a rep.


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## William Odling

Yeah hells bay are nice and you pay for it. I went to look at some before I bought my skimmer skiff as a lot of my friends have them, at the end of the day I wanted a skiff for fishing the flats that’s it. Skimmer and the like will do all that easily. You can either go to the grocery store in a Rolls Royce or a Ford Focus, both will accomplish what you need it’s the finishing touches that differ.


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## topnative2

Willy roberts skiffs

https://www.willyflatsboats.com/


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## 17376

Go to East Cape! Kevin is a stand up guy! Or @jcdesigns can build you one. JC is a great guy too!


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## loganlogan

Travis Smith said:


> Go to East Cape! Kevin is a stand up guy! Or @jcdesigns can build you one. JC is a great guy too!


I was just over near East cape last week, but didn't have the time to stop. They are in the list.


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## fjmaverick

formerWAflyfisher said:


> They are expensive. The make great boats but they are in the top tier of the market. In that price range I think you could do better, take a look at Flyod Skiffs, East Cape, Maverick or Ankona/Salt Marsh. Just to name a few. I say this as a person that owns a used HB. I don’t think I would ever buy a new one.


Someone's got to bite the bullet and buy new. Most HB are trailer/garaged and show like new when sold 2nd hand.


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## JC Designs

Travis Smith said:


> Go to East Cape! Kevin is a stand up guy! Or @jcdesigns can build you one. JC is a great guy too!


Thanks Travis, a year to go still! All the boats mentioned so far are great boats! As many have already said and has been said a lot, decide first what is most important to YOU and stick with the ol’ 80/20 rule. Good luck in your search and if you want/need an unbiased opinion just pm me, James


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## Matts

You have to decide not on a brand, but what on how you intend to fish the skiff. The only HB that is 30K is the Eldora and it's pretty darn plain. Functional, but not the finish level of a HB Waterman or Pro. A pro will be about 60-65K. Welcome to the hunt.


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## loganlogan

Matts said:


> You have to decide not on a brand, but what on how you intend to fish the skiff. The only HB that is 30K is the Eldora and it's pretty darn plain. Functional, but not the finish level of a HB Waterman or Pro. A pro will be about 60-65K. Welcome to the hunt.


I'm planning on fishing mostly the flats solo. Occasionally my wife and the small puppy will soak some baits. The hb waterman seemed good, but not for $40k. Just building some funds, looking around and asking questions. I'm new to these kinds of boats.


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## Matts

A HB Waterman is a classic hull and I doubt you will ever get a new one for less than 40k. Fishing solo on a poling skiff can be challenging. See previous threads as to such. It's a team sport and can be a pain to fish solo, but it can be done. This is a great site to help you discover what skiff is right for you. It's always great to find a good used skiff but the do hold their value quite well. 
Best,
Matt


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## formerWAflyfisher

My suggestion is to look for a fairly new used Skiff. You’ll get way more bang for your buck and if you want something changed you can either sell and lose less value or go to a custom shop like “The Skiff Shop” and get exactly what your envision built. In your price range I think if you wait for the right deal you’d be hard pressed to tell much of a difference from a used skiff to a new skiff, especially after a professional wet sand/wax/buff/cleaning etc.


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## loganlogan

formerWAflyfisher said:


> My suggestion is to look for a fairly new used Skiff. You’ll get way more bang for your buck and if you want something changed you can either sell and lose less value or go to a custom shop like “The Skiff Shop” and get exactly what your envision built. In your price range I think if you wait for the right deal you’d be hard pressed to tell much of a difference from a used skiff to a new skiff, especially after a professional wet sand/wax/buff/cleaning etc.


Thanks. I had not heard of the skiff shop. That's a great option.


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## formerWAflyfisher

Here’s an older HB Pro ( Not my boat, just saw it and have been admiring it) Looks to be in great shape. You’d be hard pressed to come close to this price on any new HB with half the options. 

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/end-of-an-era-hellsbay-pro.82212/#post-790768


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## formerWAflyfisher

Sorry to beat a thread, but I’m at work. Working very hard today..... 

One of many custom shops in FL. Tom does spectacular work and will build whatever you want. 
https://m.facebook.com/TheSkiffShop/


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## loganlogan

formerWAflyfisher said:


> Here’s an older HB Pro ( Not my boat, just saw it and have been admiring it) Looks to be in great shape. You’d be hard pressed to come close to this price on any new HB with half the options.
> 
> https://www.microskiff.com/threads/end-of-an-era-hellsbay-pro.82212/#post-790768


I did see that post. The boat is awesome, but high priced for me.


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## jay.bush1434

formerWAflyfisher said:


> My suggestion is to look for a fairly new used Skiff. You’ll get way more bang for your buck and if you want something changed you can either sell and lose less value or go to a custom shop like “The Skiff Shop” and get exactly what your envision built. In your price range I think if you wait for the right deal you’d be hard pressed to tell much of a difference from a used skiff to a new skiff, especially after a professional wet sand/wax/buff/cleaning etc.


This is really good advice. Since you are new to skiffs, buying a good used one will get you on the water and figuring out what you really want in/on your skiff regarding size, layout, options, etc. After running your new to you skiff, you'll figure out what you like and don't like. That will make ordering a new skiff a much better experience.


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## 7WT

Almost all skinny flats boats have different characteristics. If you have boating experience you have certain knowledge regarding for example, hole shot, draft while running, draft while poling, how it handles chop... then there is the motor and manufacturers, reliability, weight, HP. And also a trailer. All of these of course matter. The more skiffs you experience the more you will understand the differences and what you are looking for. I ended up buying a Beavertail B2 model with a 60 4 stroke Merc. Perfect for what I want. Older boat but HB mold and I could afford it. Did a bit of work and she is great.


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## Shallows

formerWAflyfisher said:


> My suggestion is to look for a fairly new used Skiff. You’ll get way more bang for your buck and if you want something changed you can either sell and lose less value or go to a custom shop like “The Skiff Shop” and get exactly what your envision built. In your price range I think if you wait for the right deal you’d be hard pressed to tell much of a difference from a used skiff to a new skiff, especially after a professional wet sand/wax/buff/cleaning etc.


Not to mention you wouldn't have thousand dollar a month boat payments. 

That said, the reason boats get a bad rap is because people buy used boats - and they are monstrous money pits - I have never owned a single used boat that ended up having a properly running outboard, they all had issues - many you can't tell until on the water with an actual load on the motor/gearbox. I would consider a bare bones used skiff hull that was under five years old, but I would plan on selling the old motor and buying a brand new outboard for it - so point being, buy a small enough hull to where a new outboard is within you're cash budget - the 25hp range is really the best bang for the buck (under $4K), as larger and you have to buy a prop, they will require a dealer rig the outboard etc.


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## loganlogan

Shallows said:


> Not to mention you wouldn't have thousand dollar a month boat payments.
> 
> That said, the reason boats get a bad rap is because people buy used boats - and they are monstrous money pits - I have never owned a single used boat that ended up having a properly running outboard, they all had issues - many you can't tell until on the water with an actual load on the motor/gearbox. I would consider a bare bones used skiff hull that was under five years old, but I would plan on selling the old motor and buying a brand new outboard for it - so point being, buy a small enough hull to where a new outboard is within you're cash budget - the 25hp range is really the best bang for the buck (under $4K), as larger and you have to buy a prop, they will require a dealer rig the outboard etc.


Giant payments, I definitely don't want. Old motors are definitely a concern as well.


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## devrep

in 2011 I purchased a 94 silver king w/o motor, rewired it, wet sanded and buffed it and put a brand new motor on it. In 2014 I purchased an 01 waterman at a great price, sold the good running original motor, wet sanded and buffed it, put a brand new motor on it. I still have both and which I use is determined by where I'm fishing and if there are more than 2 people going. I got 2 classic skiffs that handle great with reliable motors for relatively small money. if you see either for sale it means I'm dead or disabled.


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## Shallows

devrep said:


> in 2011 I purchased a 94 silver king w/o motor, rewired it, wet sanded and buffed it and put a brand new motor on it. In 2014 I purchased an 01 waterman at a great price, sold the good running original motor, wet sanded and buffed it, put a brand new motor on it. I still have both and which I use is determined by where I'm fishing and if there are more than 2 people going. I got 2 classic skiffs that handle great with reliable motors for relatively small money. if you see either for sale it means I'm dead or disabled.


You have the right idea - dump the old outboard and buy a new one immediately after purchase for sure - and the way used outboards hold there value its really a no brainer.


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## privateer

Read up and ask a lot of questions. Most skiff guys are very helpful. Shop around and buy used. Don’t get hung up on the brand. I’ve got a HB but also really enjoyed spending time with family and fishing with my old Gheenoes, Beavertail BTX, Mitzi, and Hewes. Just buy what you can afford without going too far in debt and get out on the water.


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## Clubhunter

You should check out one of Harry Spear’s boats. They are easy to pole and quiet as compared to other skiffs I have owned. Spear Boatworks. I have a Low Tide Guide.


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## loganlogan

Clubhunter said:


> You should check out one of Harry Spear’s boats. They are easy to pole and quiet as compared to other skiffs I have owned. Spear Boatworks. I have a Low Tide Guide.


I'll put them on the list. What is the price range, and I know it's highly variable.


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## NativeBone

loganlogan said:


> I'll put them on the list. What is the price range, and I know it's highly variable.


https://www.microskiff.com/threads/evergladez-legend-for-sale-16-23-500.72310/#post-665866


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## Clubhunter

loganlogan said:


> I'll put them on the list. What is the price range, and I know it's highly variable.


Not sure I got mine used with only 80 hrs on engine. His web site is crap so I would call him direct and talk with him. He can design it to your needs.


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## Matts

Yes, call Harry and research his brand. He seems to have several really fishy builds. At the end of the day, just ask yourself what you want the skiff to do and then go from there. My first fiberglass skiff just wasn't for me so I only kept it a year. I didn't get to wet test that one, which is likely why I offloaded it quickly. Wet test is essential. Fish out of one for a day (hire a guide) so you really get the feel for it. 
Best,
Matt


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## devrep

Chris MoreJohn seems to have a lot of respect for Harry Spears boats if you read his blog.


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## crboggs

loganlogan said:


> What is the price range, and I know it's highly variable.


Reading this thread, you are way too focused on price.

When you get into skinny water, technical skiffs functionality can vary widely along with pricing.

Your local water and the type of fishing you want to do should drive your decision process...not how much boat you can get for how many dollars.

You could end up with a cheap, deal on a boat that is basically useless for what you need.

You need to define the specific functionality you need in your skiff and then look at makes / models that fill those needs. And THEN you begin to compare pricing and other non-functional factors between those makes / models.

For example...

1) Console? Side Console? Tiller?
2) Do you need a tunnel? What is the tidal impact in your area?
3) What sort of depths are you fishing? Pole or troll?
4) Are you crossing alot of open water or primarily in back bays or creeks?
5) Do you need to be able to dry launch from causeways or primitive ramps?
6) Will you want a live well? Or are you exclusively fly / arti?
7) How much do you care about fit and finish vs raw functionality?
8) How much do you care about resale value?

The list goes on...


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## Matts

crboggs said:


> Reading this thread, you are way too focused on price.
> 
> When you get into skinny water, technical skiffs functionality can vary widely along with pricing.
> 
> Your local water and the type of fishing you want to do should drive your decision process...not how much boat you can get for how many dollars.
> 
> You could end up with a cheap, deal on a boat that is basically useless for what you need.
> 
> You need to define the specific functionality you need in your skiff and then look at makes / models that fill those needs. And THEN you begin to compare pricing and other non-functional factors between those makes / models.


Perfectly said and the reason I now own the skiff I own. Wouldn’t trade it for anything other than another one just like it. These skiffs are just so technologically advanced and specific that you have to know how you will fish it.
Best,
Matt


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## paulrad

Hey Logan,

If you're looking for a boat and you don't really know what you want, then maybe it would be helpful to spend some time in various boats. I'd be happy to take you fishing for a day in my boat if you want. It's a shadowcast. I've been very happy with it. It's not for sale, but it might help you to figure out what you like/don't like if you fished out of it for a day. I'm in Daytona.


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## JC Designs

paulrad said:


> Hey Logan,
> 
> If you're looking for a boat and you don't really know what you want, then maybe it would be helpful to spend some time in various boats. I'd be happy to take you fishing for a day in my boat if you want. It's a shadowcast. I've been very happy with it. It's not for sale, but it might help you to figure out what you like/don't like if you fished out of it for a day. I'm in Daytona.


Very generous!


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## loganlogan

crboggs said:


> Reading this thread, you are way too focused on price.
> 
> When you get into skinny water, technical skiffs functionality can vary widely along with pricing.
> 
> Your local water and the type of fishing you want to do should drive your decision process...not how much boat you can get for how many dollars.
> 
> You could end up with a cheap, deal on a boat that is basically useless for what you need.
> 
> You need to define the specific functionality you need in your skiff and then look at makes / models that fill those needs. And THEN you begin to compare pricing and other non-functional factors between those makes / models.
> 
> For example...
> 
> 1) Console? Side Console? Tiller?
> 2) Do you need a tunnel? What is the tidal impact in your area?
> 3) What sort of depths are you fishing? Pole or troll?
> 4) Are you crossing alot of open water or primarily in back bays or creeks?
> 5) Do you need to be able to dry launch from causeways or primitive ramps?
> 6) Will you want a live well? Or are you exclusively fly / arti?
> 7) How much do you care about fit and finish vs raw functionality?
> 8) How much do you care about resale value?
> 
> The list goes on...


I agree that price is not the absolute deciding factor. There are many variables. I think the hb visit, caused my wife and I a little sticker shock. That will wear off I'm sure. The fit and finish if those boats, seemed very nice. I'm sure they are worth what they ask.


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## Buffalo Bob

My suggestion is to call Liz @ Beavertail Skiffs in Bradenton @ 941- ‭‭‭705-2090 / beavertailskiffs.com. IMHO you will not find a more accommodating couple than Liz & Will Leslie and I love my new Mosquito. Liz runs sales & her husband Will runs the shop and building the boats. They also have just hired a guy (I have not met him personally, but spoken w/ him) named Michael Bowen to assist both Liz & Will (941-465-1330‬).


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## loganlogan

paulrad said:


> Hey Logan,
> 
> If you're looking for a boat and you don't really know what you want, then maybe it would be helpful to spend some time in various boats. I'd be happy to take you fishing for a day in my boat if you want. It's a shadowcast. I've been very happy with it. It's not for sale, but it might help you to figure out what you like/don't like if you fished out of it for a day. I'm in Daytona.


That is very generous.


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## loganlogan

paulrad said:


> Hey Logan,
> 
> If you're looking for a boat and you don't really know what you want, then maybe it would be helpful to spend some time in various boats. I'd be happy to take you fishing for a day in my boat if you want. It's a shadowcast. I've been very happy with it. It's not for sale, but it might help you to figure out what you like/don't like if you fished out of it for a day. I'm in Daytona.


That is very generous.


paulrad said:


> Hey Logan,
> 
> If you're looking for a boat and you don't really know what you want, then maybe it would be helpful to spend some time in various boats. I'd be happy to take you fishing for a day in my boat if you want. It's a shadowcast. I've been very happy with it. It's not for sale, but it might help you to figure out what you like/don't like if you fished out of it for a day. I'm in Daytona.


I just might take you up on that offer. That is a very generous offer, thank you.


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## rummya87

All of the advice in here so far has been sound. I'll add one more thing. I run a 2003 HB professional that I got used and full disclosure, I am an HB guide.

The build quality of a boat varies wildly. A boat that is glassed together at the hull/liner/deck seam and has a divinycell core between the fiberglass layups is going to be more expensive than a thin fiberglass hull that's been injected with spray foam and screwed together at the deck joint. A boat with a properly designed stringer system is more expensive than one without. A boat that has its rigging well planned and thought through is going to be more expensive than one that is put together as an afterthought. Those differences make up the price difference between an entry level boat and a 60k skiff. There is a huge spectrum in build quality and techniques to make up the difference between the high and low ends.

There are plenty of excellent entry level boats/skiffs, but if you need something that is more than entry level, you will absolutely get what you pay for. For me, its pretty nice to know when I'm pounding through chop in a sound, or in a basin in the Keys, or trying to reach a tarpon flat on the gulf coast, that my boat has my back and I can confidently trust in its build quality.


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## K3anderson

I would echo Boggs comments. Might want to define what is important to you. If cheapest thing you can find is the key, get a jonboat. That will let you figure out what you really want and are easy to sell.


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## redchaser

I do disagree a bit about dumping used outboards, at least as far as 2 strokes go. 2 stroke outboards, particularly carbureted ones are pretty simple machines that tend to last the longest when they're run regularly, they are also pretty easy to work on. Get a seller to let you test ride, check compression on the cylinders and if possible have a mechanic give it a once over, there's no reason you can't get a lot of relatively trouble free life out of a used outboard. You would also be surprised at how many issues you can tackle yourself with a service manual and Youtube videos if they do arise.


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## Tx_Whipray

redchaser said:


> I do disagree a bit about dumping used outboards, at least as far as 2 strokes go. 2 stroke outboards, particularly carbureted ones are pretty simple machines that tend to last the longest when they're run regularly, they are also pretty easy to work on. Get a seller to let you test ride, check compression on the cylinders and if possible have a mechanic give it a once over, there's no reason you can't get a lot of relatively trouble free life out of a used outboard. You would also be surprised at how many issues you can tackle yourself with a service manual and Youtube videos if they do arise.


I bought my '99 Whipray in 2004 with a '99 Yamaha 2 stroke. That motor lasted until 2017 before I blew the powerhead. I repowered with a new 4 stroke Tohatsu, but some days wish I'd just rebuilt the Yamaha. Nothing wrong with the Tohatsu except that it needs to lose about 50 lbs.


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## Backcountry 16

redchaser said:


> I do disagree a bit about dumping used outboards, at least as far as 2 strokes go. 2 stroke outboards, particularly carbureted ones are pretty simple machines that tend to last the longest when they're run regularly, they are also pretty easy to work on. Get a seller to let you test ride, check compression on the cylinders and if possible have a mechanic give it a once over, there's no reason you can't get a lot of relatively trouble free life out of a used outboard. You would also be surprised at how many issues you can tackle yourself with a service manual and Youtube videos if they do arise.


Agreed both my skiffs have 15 year old 2 strokes both run like a top.


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## Shallows

redchaser said:


> I do disagree a bit about dumping used outboards, at least as far as 2 strokes go. 2 stroke outboards, particularly carbureted ones are pretty simple machines that tend to last the longest when they're run regularly, they are also pretty easy to work on. Get a seller to let you test ride, check compression on the cylinders and if possible have a mechanic give it a once over, there's no reason you can't get a lot of relatively trouble free life out of a used outboard. You would also be surprised at how many issues you can tackle yourself with a service manual and Youtube videos if they do arise.


I guess the question is - do you drive a 1980's truck every day - and if no, why? They are easier to work on, over-built (stronger), dependable, etc. The old stuff is nice to admire, but when I hit the water I enjoy firing up a super quiet fuel injected outboard thats starts first click and cruising on out of the dock fast before the guy next to me covers me in 2-stroke smoke from his old noisy Yamaha THAT JUST WON'T DIE - then I cruise along with an ergonomic tiller handle that probably has half the vibration of some old 2-stroke from the 80's - my hand thanks me for this. When I get home I hook a hose up to the outlet on my outboard and flush for a few minutes without ears - while my neighbor in the distance fires up his old 2-stroke Mercury and drowns the whole neighborhood in noise trying to flush the damn thing.

It's an entirely subjective thing, I have owned many 2-strokes and really admire the design, but guess I have just outgrown them personally. If my outboard dies a few years from now I am fine with that, I'd rather have all the modern bells and whistles than just pure reliability - if I wanted a bare bones indestructible outboard I would have bought a Yamaha Enduro brand new and imported it. There is no right answer here, definitely to each his own.


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## Backcountry 16

Shallows said:


> I guess the question is - do you drive a 1980's truck every day - and if no, why? They are easier to work on, over-built (stronger), dependable, etc. The old stuff is nice to admire, but when I hit the water I enjoy firing up a super quiet fuel injected outboard thats starts first click and cruising on out of the dock fast before the guy next to me covers me in 2-stroke smoke from his old noisy Yamaha THAT JUST WON'T DIE - then I cruise along with an ergonomic tiller handle that probably has half the vibration of some old 2-stroke from the 80's - my hand thanks me for this. When I get home I hook a hose up to the outlet on my outboard and flush for a few minutes without ears - while my neighbor in the distance fires up his old 2-stroke Mercury and drowns the whole neighborhood in noise trying to flush the damn thing.
> 
> It's an entirely subjective thing, I have owned many 2-strokes and really admire the design, but guess I have just outgrown them personally. If my outboard dies a few years from now I am fine with that, I'd rather have all the modern bells and whistles than just pure reliability - if I wanted a bare bones indestructible outboard I would have bought a Yamaha Enduro brand new and imported it. There is no right answer here, definitely to each his own.


Many people drive 2008 trucks that was the last year of the true 2 stroke (Evinrude not included).


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## JC Designs

Backcountry 16 said:


> Many people drive 2008 trucks that was the last year of the true 2 stroke (Evinrude not included).


Hell, my newest vehicle is a ‘98!


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## devrep

I fish a lot way the hell back in the mangroves, many times by myself with no cell signal. I didn't know the history of the original motor and didn't want to find out the hard way.


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## ShallowCaster

loganlogan said:


> I stopped by their shop on the way home. The entry level boat is $30k to start. They want $10k down. They were my first stop for decision making. Is that pricing normal across manufacturers? Also, what are typical/average boat loan payments for $20000? The boat that has some functionality, Waterman, is $40k.


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## Bob Brooks

loganlogan said:


> I stopped by their shop on the way home. The entry level boat is $30k to start. They want $10k down. They were my first stop for decision making. Is that pricing normal across manufacturers? Also, what are typical/average boat loan payments for $20000? The boat that has some functionality, Waterman, is $40k.


I have owned several different brands of skiffs, including East Cape and 
Hewes, they all have their good and bad points, however; I purchased a HB two years ago, their fit and finish 
and construction are the best I’ve owned! The cost is absolutely worth it.


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## ShallowCaster

Check out the SaltMarsh Skiff (Heron) made by Ankona in Ft Pierce, Florida. I got my 16' Heron last February and it is an excellent skiff for the price.


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## David Porter

Check out Ankona skiffs out of Ft. Pierce FL. I have a 17’ Native and love it! It’s a Kevlar hull that will float just as shallow as an HB and can be bought for around $20K new with motor and trailer.


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## 4991

There’s a reason that boat is $20k vs the price of a Hell’s Bay. The fit, finish and quality of construction don’t even compare.


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## JC Designs

dhenderson said:


> There’s a reason that boat is $20k vs the price of a Hell’s Bay. The fit, finish and quality of construction don’t even compare.


Maybe not, but he wasn’t suggesting it did. Was merely suggesting the op check them out.


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## privateer

I’ve had both. And really appreciated both for what they are.

Both are great boats, well designed and well executed. I really like the family environment at Ankona. 

Fit and finish are different levels. But performance and fish ability are there for both.


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## loganlogan

David Porter said:


> Check out Ankona skiffs out of Ft. Pierce FL. I have a 17’ Native and love it! It’s a Kevlar hull that will float just as shallow as an HB and can be bought for around $20K new with motor and trailer.


Thanks for the suggestion. They are on the list.


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## loganlogan

dhenderson said:


> There’s a reason that boat is $20k vs the price of a Hell’s Bay. The fit, finish and quality of construction don’t even compare.


For someone looking into flats boats for the first time, a $10k difference is big.


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## David Outdoors

loganlogan said:


> I stopped by their shop on the way home. The entry level boat is $30k to start. They want $10k down. They were my first stop for decision making. Is that pricing normal across manufacturers? Also, what are typical/average boat loan payments for $20000? The boat that has some functionality, Waterman, is $40k.


Check these guys out 
https://nanocraftboats.com/about-us/


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## loganlogan

David Outdoors said:


> Check these guys out
> https://nanocraftboats.com/about-us/


Very interesting. I just read a review of that boat, that was extremely positive.


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## devrep

t


loganlogan said:


> Very interesting. I just read a review of that boat, that was extremely positive.


The hull is an old discontinued hells bay.


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## Moe

loganlogan said:


> I stopped by their shop on the way home. The entry level boat is $30k to start. They want $10k down. They were my first stop for decision making. Is that pricing normal across manufacturers? Also, what are typical/average boat loan payments for $20000? The boat that has some functionality, Waterman, is $40k.


I would check out SaltMarsh skiffs. They are amazing to work with. I just purchased a Heron 16 with a 60 Tohatsu and couldn’t be happier. I put tons of custom options and still kept the price under 28k. Boat runs amazing. Fit and finish is good, not as good as HB but definitely not 20k better. I would have spent about 50k with comparable options.


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## loganlogan

Moe said:


> I would check out SaltMarsh skiffs. They are amazing to work with. I just purchased a Heron 16 with a 60 Tohatsu and couldn’t be happier. I put tons of custom options and still kept the price under 28k. Boat runs amazing. Fit and finish is good, not as good as HB but definitely not 20k better. I would have spent about 50k with comparable options.


That boat looks sharp.


----------



## Moe

loganlogan said:


> That boat looks sharp.


Thanks brotha


----------



## Moe

Moe said:


> Thanks brotha


Not hating on HB. They make an amazing skiff. Just cant justify the cost difference for my use of the skiff. Good luck.


----------



## loganlogan

Moe said:


> Not hating on HB. They make an amazing skiff. Just cant justify the cost difference for my use of the skiff. Good luck.


Agreed. No one can hate on them. The have a great product.


----------



## Shallows

Moe said:


> Not hating on HB. They make an amazing skiff. Just cant justify the cost difference for my use of the skiff. Good luck.


Like any luxury car or item you reach a point of diminishing returns where paying 100% more may only give you a 10% faster car and so forth.


----------



## Moe

Shallows said:


> Like any luxury car or item you reach a point of diminishing returns where paying 100% more may only give you a 10% faster car and so forth.


Very true


----------



## K3anderson

Shallows said:


> Like any luxury car or item you reach a point of diminishing returns where paying 100% more may only give you a 10% faster car and so forth.


Mine's worth more than it was new... LOL.


----------



## bradass198

I didn’t see any mention of a Cayo. I have seen the 17 and it is a really nicely finished little skiff. I have fished on the 180MV and it was a great boat. It took chop very well, was super dry, and poled and tracked great. The 180MV is hard to find but my buddy bought a used 2017 loaded for about 25k with a beautiful aluminum trailer. Definitely with looking into. Good luck with the hunt.


----------



## Tx_Whipray

K3anderson said:


> Mine's worth more than it was new... LOL.


Mine too.


----------



## Shallows

K3anderson said:


> Mine's worth more than it was new... LOL.


You missed the point, I wasn't talking about re-sale value. You still spent 50K+ for a boat that is 10%, 20%, whatever - better than a 30K skiff - thats the point, diminishing returns (if any).

Btw, nothing against Hells Bay - if you have the money go for it, they look like nice boats.


----------



## Olin

loganlogan said:


> I stopped by their shop on the way home. The entry level boat is $30k to start. They want $10k down. They were my first stop for decision making. Is that pricing normal across manufacturers? Also, what are typical/average boat loan payments for $20000? The boat that has some functionality, Waterman, is $40k.


----------



## Olin

Mitzi skiff total rebuild by Tom at skiff shop. I need to go bigger. 17k


----------



## devrep

the 1st whiprays were base priced under 10K. what are they worth now?


----------



## Shallows

devrep said:


> the 1st whiprays were base priced under 10K. what are they worth now?


That just seems like such a better value back then - will anyone spending 50K on a new Hells bay be able to break even when the time comes to sell?!


----------



## Moe

bradass198 said:


> I didn’t see any mention of a Cayo. I have seen the 17 and it is a really nicely finished little skiff. I have fished on the 180MV and it was a great boat. It took chop very well, was super dry, and poled and tracked great. The 180MV is hard to find but my buddy bought a used 2017 loaded for about 25k with a beautiful aluminum trailer. Definitely with looking into. Good luck with the hunt.


Cayo makes a nice skiff too. I visited there factory and definitely considered them but found the heron to be a better hull design for me. A bit wider and roomier than the cayo 17. I’m out on Biscayne bay most times so having a bit wider beam helps.


----------



## Backcountry 16

Shallows said:


> That just seems like such a better value back then - will anyone spending 50K on a new Hells bay be able to break even when the time comes to sell?!


No they wont as the use to have the corner on the market but thete are many options out there. New whipray 40k or a 10k conchfish no brainer there.


----------



## jsnipes

Shallows said:


> That just seems like such a better value back then - will anyone spending 50K on a new Hells bay be able to break even when the time comes to sell?!


used market reflects cost vs. buying a new boat. if the new boat market continues to move up significantly in cost (as happened w flats boat from 2000-today), then a new HB today will retain value better in the future.


----------



## devrep

if 16 ft skiffs are selling for 100K in the year 2040, maybe.


----------



## K3anderson

jsnipes said:


> used market reflects cost vs. buying a new boat. if the new boat market continues to move up significantly in cost (as happened w flats boat from 2000-today), then a new HB today will retain value better in the future.


It reflects the cost of new AND quality. If something is manufactured with inferior components, that simply weren't designed to last for 15-20 years, they won't. Lots of cheaply built boats are no longer on the water anymore after a few years and their value has diminished to the point where they are worthless.


----------



## jsnipes

devrep said:


> if 16 ft skiffs are selling for 100K in the year 2040, maybe.


you think skiffs won't be 100k in 2040? hah


----------



## devrep

by 2040 you'll be working in your government appointed job with no salary and living in your government appointed flat with no rent. there will be no leisure pursuit's comrade.


----------



## el9surf

devrep said:


> by 2040 you'll be working in your government appointed job with no salary and living in your government appointed flat with no rent. there will be no leisure pursuit's comrade.


By 2020 you might be living in an autonomous zone, with community property, walls to protect you, and a self appointed war lord to tell you what to do. Oh wait that already happened.


----------



## el9surf

If you think HB's prices are expensive go look at bay boats and offshore boats. You will come back to HB feeling like you got a deal.


----------



## Shallows

el9surf said:


> If you think HB's prices are expensive go look at bay boats and offshore boats. You will come back to HB feeling like you got a deal.


Compare apples to apples.


----------



## el9surf

Shallows said:


> Compare apples to apples.


I hope you don't need me to do that for you. I was just putting things in perspective.


----------



## Matts

You all are way to focused on the money. Skiffs hold their value better than most boats, because they have less volume of sales. The bottom line, buy the best skiff you can afford that meets the criteria for what you like to do. For me, there is no finer skiff on the market than what I own and I buy another of it the same in a heartbeat.


----------



## commtrd

Matts said:


> You all are way to focused on the money. Skiffs hold their value better than most boats, because they have less volume of sales. The bottom line, buy the best skiff you can afford that meets the criteria for what you like to do. For me, there is no finer skiff on the market than what I own and I buy another of it the same in a heartbeat.


Consider this: the fed conjures up TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS out of thin air weekly. The very concept of money is now hopelessly skewed out of reality. The train wreck WILL HAPPEN someday. Unavoidable. SO: I acknowledge this as the reality. When? No crystal ball here. Verdict: I go to FL end of July to pick up my Chittum Laguna Madre 2 tunnel. I intend to try to enjoy life much as possible doing what I like to do (fly fishing, art, photography) to live and capture the coastal water-borne lifestyle much as possible until the fecal matter doth coat the proverbial fanblades. 

OK so was this boat stupid expensive? Of course. Is it a status symbol or any other such non-sense? Of course not. Simply, I know of no other skiff currently sold that will do what that boat does. There is to be no fanfare, no pictures, no nothing relating to my boat on any online forum whatsoever. Other than current discussion within the context of the "bigger picture". 

When the dollar finally reaches that fateful day where it has absolutely zero value (just about there LOL), is the cost of my skiff going to matter much in the big scheme of things? I submit that it will not. What matters? Time, and the relative quality of that rarest of all commodities. Live it to the fullest, and worry not about the money. Time is short...


----------



## devrep

I wonder how many old people living on dog food had those same thoughts?


----------



## commtrd

What a totally morbid thing to say. A shining example of why it is so irritating to try to post anything that is counter to the prevailing madness. To even imply that kind of a mindset is dis-heartening. You focus on that outcome, that is what you will get. Enjoy your dog food asshole.


----------



## loganlogan

commtrd said:


> Consider this: the fed conjures up TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS out of thin air weekly. The very concept of money is now hopelessly skewed out of reality. The train wreck WILL HAPPEN someday. Unavoidable. SO: I acknowledge this as the reality. When? No crystal ball here. Verdict: I go to FL end of July to pick up my Chittum Laguna Madre 2 tunnel. I intend to try to enjoy life much as possible doing what I like to do (fly fishing, art, photography) to live and capture the coastal water-borne lifestyle much as possible until the fecal matter doth coat the proverbial fanblades.
> 
> OK so was this boat stupid expensive? Of course. Is it a status symbol or any other such non-sense? Of course not. Simply, I know of no other skiff currently sold that will do what that boat does. There is to be no fanfare, no pictures, no nothing relating to my boat on any online forum whatsoever. Other than current discussion within the context of the "bigger picture".
> 
> When the dollar finally reaches that fateful day where it has absolutely zero value (just about there LOL), is the cost of my skiff going to matter much in the big scheme of things? I submit that it will not. What matters? Time, and the relative quality of that rarest of all commodities. Live it to the fullest, and worry not about the money. Time is short...


Those boats, look amazing. Congratulations on your purchase.


----------



## paulrad

commtrd said:


> Consider this: the fed conjures up TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS out of thin air weekly. The very concept of money is now hopelessly skewed out of reality. The train wreck WILL HAPPEN someday. Unavoidable. SO: I acknowledge this as the reality. When? No crystal ball here. Verdict: I go to FL end of July to pick up my Chittum Laguna Madre 2 tunnel. I intend to try to enjoy life much as possible doing what I like to do (fly fishing, art, photography) to live and capture the coastal water-borne lifestyle much as possible until the fecal matter doth coat the proverbial fanblades.
> 
> OK so was this boat stupid expensive? Of course. Is it a status symbol or any other such non-sense? Of course not. Simply, I know of no other skiff currently sold that will do what that boat does. There is to be no fanfare, no pictures, no nothing relating to my boat on any online forum whatsoever. Other than current discussion within the context of the "bigger picture".
> 
> When the dollar finally reaches that fateful day where it has absolutely zero value (just about there LOL), is the cost of my skiff going to matter much in the big scheme of things? I submit that it will not. What matters? Time, and the relative quality of that rarest of all commodities. Live it to the fullest, and worry not about the money. Time is short...


Well said. Commtrd is not dumb. 

Time is interesting. We didn't create it. We can't destroy it. It is the property of God alone. He entrusts us to just a bit of it in this life. And I would submit that using some of it to fish in a chittum is much more honorable than pointlessly worrying about the upcoming inevitable collapse.


----------



## CKEAT

I would gladly live on dog food and enjoy my life. Anyone is more than welcome to stow away all and when your 70 and can’t use it, wishing you had. 

Also, if shit goes that bad, the value of the dollar and all your investments won’t mean jack.

Oh and nobody is saying you use all your resources. Don’t be stupid but if you can afford it! Get after it.


----------



## devrep

look, I was just being a dick. didn't mean to get your blood pressure up. obviously if you've seen any of my posts I'm not shy about spending my money and having a good time.


----------



## commtrd

I will admit that my worldview does tend to be a bit more "apocalyptic" than some. Although I have taken steps to attempt to ensure plausible subsistence when terminal old age arrives, I suspect that it is very probable that we will all be faced with situations that will guarantee our immediate if not early demise. So before that time comes, why not try to enjoy it if at all possible? As Tyler Durden said, "No one gets out alive". Seems like the stage is being set as we speak. There was a time I said I would never buy a boat like that but with things the way they are, I figure what the heck?


----------



## commtrd

CKEAT said:


> I would gladly live on dog food and enjoy my life. Anyone is more than welcome to stow away all and when your 70 and can’t use it, wishing you had.
> 
> Also, if shit goes that bad, the value of the dollar and all your investments won’t mean jack.
> 
> Oh and nobody is saying you use all your resources. Don’t be stupid but if you can afford it! Get after it.


That middle sentence... Plus I do remember very vividly the time I was making surfboards for a living, poor as a churchmouse, sitting on the side of a bunk in a tiny office beside my glossing room eating from a box of dry cereal I had just spent my last $1.86 I had to my name because I was hungry. Right then I promised myself I was never letting that happen to me again. Now 43 years later, I am definitely not rich, but arranged my finances to do this boat and still do my art and photography. One thing I am not doing is being fearful about what is to come. Rather be took out standing up than cowering in fear on my knees with a stupid mask on, begging for subsistence from the gov. Fuck that.


----------



## csnaspuck

5 pages on a hells bay thread...why am i not surprised.


----------



## Matts

csnaspuck said:


> 5 pages on a hells bay thread...why am i not surprised.


Now it’s a Chittum thread


----------



## CKEAT

csnaspuck said:


> 5 pages on a hells bay thread...why am i not surprised.


It is not surprising, most people love to judge others on the merit of their purchases, questioning “Value” will always happen. That is why HB, Chittum or name whatever extravagant item you want gets a lot of attention. 

It really matters none, why or how you buy something, I think we get too caught up in that. Buy whatever skiff you like and “get after it”!


----------



## Shallows

commtrd said:


> Consider this: the fed conjures up TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS out of thin air weekly. The very concept of money is now hopelessly skewed out of reality. The train wreck WILL HAPPEN someday. Unavoidable. SO: I acknowledge this as the reality. When? No crystal ball here.


The fed conjures up trillions; however, there is no inflation... during a credit-deleveraging event the collapse in credit is way beyond the few trillions in Treasuries that a central bank can purchase. So I wouldn't start filling up a warehouse full of Hell's Bay's to protect against an inflationary collapse just yet!



commtrd said:


> OK so was this boat stupid expensive? Of course. Is it a status symbol or any other such non-sense? Of course not. Simply, I know of no other skiff currently sold that will do what that boat does. There is to be no fanfare, no pictures, no nothing relating to my boat on any online forum whatsoever. Other than current discussion within the context of the "bigger picture".


Look, all that matters is that you are happy with your skiff - if you want to spend 50K on a Hells Bay or Chittum and it makes you happy then go for it - to each his own for sure.


----------



## PropGunOne

Not to be a dick here... I’m genuinely curious: what does a Chittum do that an HB doesn’t?


----------



## tcov

PropGunOne said:


> Not to be a dick here... I’m genuinely curious: what does a Chittum do that an HB doesn’t?


Costs you 100k


----------



## Shallows

CKEAT said:


> Oh and nobody is saying you use all your resources. Don’t be stupid but if you can afford it! Get after it.


Yes, but the very first post of this thread the guy is asking how to buy a Hells Bay he can't afford haha, but I get what you are saying.


----------



## commtrd

Hull weight at 325 for full carbon build, lack of bow wave while poling, that I saw demonstrated by poling up to within 6" of redfish slowly cruising extreme shallows, and those are skittish nervous reds too because over there in the marsh by Cedar Bayou, airboats run over them just about every day. A boat that is properly rigged for a tunnel, my Professional was not rigged properly for the tunnel at all. I had to get assistance to pull the motor off the jackplate and install another piece of 1/2" aluminum to facilitate mounting the motor at least 3" higher so the bullet would be in the proximity of the tunnel, etc. Rear-facing rod tubes, rounded decks for water drainage, some of the things that come to mind. The weight thing is a really big deal.

So a Hells Bay is a well-built boat (albeit porky) and tends to hold value fairly well. The older whips etc were substantially lighter. Since I intend this boat to be the last I ever buy, decided to get the one I really wanted. Took a trip out of Goose Island with Stephen Ford, prolly shouldn't have done that, but when I poled that boat in water it barely floated in, and had to re-learn the pole compared to the Professional, that got my attention. Seeing Stephen jump that boat up sitting on mud and it's not even a tunnel also got my attention. The attention to fit and finish is extreme. The boat feels like a tuned instrument. Does any of this really matter to anyone else? Maybe so maybe no. And not dissing anyone's boat. Could be a Sabine, could be a Maverick, East Cape, I don't care what anyone else runs, (all good boats), I have to pay for my own and earning it with hard work and also my trading. Hope to pay her off if the mkt drops hard and fast again. Which I think it will some day. Been working 7-12s for couple months, and paid cash for my micro truck to tow it with. Priorities man. What do you want and how do you want to do it?

Could I have been happy with another HB? Honestly prolly so. Pricing is not really that different, it boils down to the weight and design mostly. Heck if I couldn't do anything else other than a kayak, I would find a way to get on the water in pursuit of fish on the fly. Was it smart to commit to such an expensive boat? Arguably no. But these are not normal times. I think there is going to be mass chaos and a full collapse of the monetary system so decided to just go for it, knowing that someday the boat could go away but at least I had the time to get serious about chasing on the fly. Good enough.


----------



## commtrd

tcov said:


> Costs you 100k


Actually no. Right at 80k. But I purposely did not add power poles, trolling motor, and all other stuff that adds weight and cost. Now go for that SWEET 21 and yeah you're looking at around 125k if full carbon etc. Plus it was an added 3500 for the tunnel I just had to have. So if I got the boat with no tunnel, and half-carbon build, would have been identical to HB Pro maybe a little less since I ordered a galvanized steel gator-skin coated trailer. But I did order the full carbon build, and the tunnel. So I get to pay up sucka!


----------



## CKEAT

Shallows said:


> Yes, but the very first post of this thread the guy is asking how to buy a Hells Bay he can't afford haha, but I get what you are saying.


We aren’t certain he can’t afford it, he may just be new to this but your right, if you are worried about cost you might want to pass on a trip to HB shop.


----------



## CKEAT

I know it is silly but I need some more time on the Chittum to see how the Carbon holds up.


----------



## Goatlips

CKEAT said:


> I know it is silly but I need some more time on the Chittum to see how the Carbon holds up.


 Thinking about trading up?


----------



## CKEAT

I know it is silly but I need some more time on the Chittum to see how the Carbon builds hold up. Really like the Chittums though.


----------



## loganlogan

CKEAT said:


> We aren’t certain he can’t afford it, he may just be new to this but your right, if you are worried about cost you might want to pass on a trip to HB shop.


I am looking for my first boat and hb is near the house. I had heard ankona/salt Marsh has entry level for less than $20k. I'm starting to understand why hb is $10k more for their base. Sticker shock.


----------



## commtrd

First skiff I would not buy a top shelf boat. Find out what works for you then look into a custom builder.


----------



## devrep

commtrd said:


> First skiff I would not buy a top shelf boat. Find out what works for you then look into a custom builder.


agree with this. you may discover you're not that enthused about this type of fishing or you may end up only fishing a few times a year in which case you'd be much better off going on guided trips. if I were you I'd get a low hour used ankona or something similar. don't get a crap fake "flats boat" like I did for my 1st "flats" boat. cape craft pc of junk. god I was such a newb .


----------



## JC Designs

CKEAT said:


> I know it is silly but I need some more time on the Chittum to see how the Carbon holds up.


Here’s my completely unbiased opinion on the carbon. It will hold up perfectly fine barring any accidents like hitting a rock, stump, etc... in which case it will not be happy! It’s a great material for 95% of folks. I’ll be doing X-2.0 in full carbon one off fashion and it will be stupid light but not as resilient as a fiberglass hull.


----------



## Tx_Whipray

You're also going to make a lot of beginner errors with your first boat. It's a miracle I didn't sink my first boat. Running it hard aground, running it into docks, towing it with the motor trimmed down and the JP all the way down and dragging the skeg pulling into parking lots. Cutting a corner too tight and tearing a fender off the trailer on a steel pillar guarding a gas pump....All those things are a lot easier to stomach (and fix) on a $10K boat than a $60K Hell's Bay or similar.


----------



## sotilloa1078

PropGunOne said:


> Not to be a dick here... I’m genuinely curious: what does a Chittum do that an HB doesn’t?


It’s not so much that it does things the HB can’t. It’s that it does many things better.


----------



## CKEAT

JC Designs said:


> Here’s my completely unbiased opinion on the carbon. It will hold up perfectly fine barring any accidents like hitting a rock, stump, etc... in which case it will not be happy! It’s a great material for 95% of folks. I’ll be doing X-2.0 in full carbon one off fashion and it will be stupid light but not as resilient as a fiberglass hull.


So oyster riddled area boat it is not? Why is the basalt not being used a bit more often?


----------



## JC Designs

CKEAT said:


> So oyster riddled area boat it is not? Why is the basalt not being used a bit more often?


I’m not really talking about oyster rash. But rather, high speed impacts. With fiberglass and basalt, the damage will stay more centralized to the impact zone where as carbon fiber the damage will spread farther.


I’m not 100% sold on basalt myself yet.


----------



## wardicus

commtrd said:


> Hull weight at 325 for full carbon build, lack of bow wave while poling, that I saw demonstrated by poling up to within 6" of redfish slowly cruising extreme shallows, and those are skittish nervous reds too because over there in the marsh by Cedar Bayou, airboats run over them just about every day. A boat that is properly rigged for a tunnel, my Professional was not rigged properly for the tunnel at all. I had to get assistance to pull the motor off the jackplate and install another piece of 1/2" aluminum to facilitate mounting the motor at least 3" higher so the bullet would be in the proximity of the tunnel, etc. Rear-facing rod tubes, rounded decks for water drainage, some of the things that come to mind. The weight thing is a really big deal.
> 
> So a Hells Bay is a well-built boat (albeit porky) and tends to hold value fairly well. The older whips etc were substantially lighter. Since I intend this boat to be the last I ever buy, decided to get the one I really wanted. Took a trip out of Goose Island with Stephen Ford, prolly shouldn't have done that, but when I poled that boat in water it barely floated in, and had to re-learn the pole compared to the Professional, that got my attention. Seeing Stephen jump that boat up sitting on mud and it's not even a tunnel also got my attention. The attention to fit and finish is extreme. The boat feels like a tuned instrument. Does any of this really matter to anyone else? Maybe so maybe no. And not dissing anyone's boat. Could be a Sabine, could be a Maverick, East Cape, I don't care what anyone else runs, (all good boats), I have to pay for my own and earning it with hard work and also my trading. Hope to pay her off if the mkt drops hard and fast again. Which I think it will some day. Been working 7-12s for couple months, and paid cash for my micro truck to tow it with. Priorities man. What do you want and how do you want to do it?
> 
> Could I have been happy with another HB? Honestly prolly so. Pricing is not really that different, it boils down to the weight and design mostly. Heck if I couldn't do anything else other than a kayak, I would find a way to get on the water in pursuit of fish on the fly. Was it smart to commit to such an expensive boat? Arguably no. But these are not normal times. I think there is going to be mass chaos and a full collapse of the monetary system so decided to just go for it, knowing that someday the boat could go away but at least I had the time to get serious about chasing on the fly. Good enough.


I want more post from this guy . Talk about taking fly fishing seriously. My man , love it . I like this dude .


----------



## wardicus

CKEAT said:


> I know it is silly but I need some more time on the Chittum to see how the Carbon holds up.


. I’ve also been wondering this.


----------



## CKEAT

JC Designs said:


> I’m not really talking about oyster rash. But rather, high speed impacts. With fiberglass and basalt, the damage will stay more centralized to the impact zone where as carbon fiber the damage will spread farther.
> 
> 
> I’m not 100% sold on basalt myself yet.


it seems if certain materials were used in strategic locations on the hull you might get best of many worlds, wish I had time to dive into a build. Would be fun. Dang jobs get in the way too much. Any free time is fishing time. 

These things have been discussed here a ton. I think the partial carbon layup on the Chittum sounds plenty good. 

I may just have to have one at some point.  can’t help myself.


----------



## Matts

PropGunOne said:


> Not to be a dick here... I’m genuinely curious: what does a Chittum do that an HB doesn’t?


Everything. It weighs 350 pounds, at the most and is dead quiet on the pole.


wardicus said:


> . I’ve also been wondering this.


I don’t think it’s going to be a problem. Stevie (aka skiff junkie) has had numerous Chittum’s and one has made multiple rough water crossings from FL-Bahamas. HB has a 5 yr hull warranty. Chittum has a 10. Hal believes in his product and the full carbon LM 2 is a marvel of engineering. I’ve never, ever seen a skiff get this close to fish. Yeah, I drank the punch but Chittum broke the mold and left everyone else trying to figure out how to modify their 20 yr old molds. It’s a game changer.


----------



## sotilloa1078

Matts said:


> Everything. It weighs 350 pounds, at the most and is dead quiet on the pole.
> 
> I don’t think it’s going to be a problem. Stevie (aka skiff junkie) has had numerous Chittum’s and one has made multiple rough water crossings from FL-Bahamas. HB has a 5 yr hull warranty. Chittum has a 10. Hal believes in his product and the full carbon LM 2 is a marvel of engineering. I’ve never, ever seen a skiff get this close to fish. Yeah, I drank the punch but Chittum broke the mold and left everyone else trying to figure out how to modify their 20 yr old molds. It’s a game changer.


everyone’s answer has been “ well we can build with carbon also” truth is the weight savings go well beyond just the material. Actually I know someone that his new “carbon” build feels identical to his non carbon build he recently sold.


----------



## commtrd

JC Designs said:


> Here’s my completely unbiased opinion on the carbon. It will hold up perfectly fine barring any accidents like hitting a rock, stump, etc... in which case it will not be happy! It’s a great material for 95% of folks. I’ll be doing X-2.0 in full carbon one off fashion and it will be stupid light but not as resilient as a fiberglass hull.


Word is that there are near and first-hand accounts of collisions with sandbars or old duck blinds (posts sticking up out of the bottom) and Chittum hulls. If this kind of info upsets some apologies in advance. Anyway, talking with Stephen Ford the other day about this very thing strangely enough. I asked him how resilient to blunt-force impact carbon fiber was. Stephen replied that just last weekend, he was running around with JT Van Zandt, a local guide, and they were running down aways from a shoreline, looking away at where some birds were going crazy in the distance (not really paying attention) and unfortunately impacted a group of fairly substantial pilings from an old abandoned duck blind. And they were moving along smartly too. The boat hit, got jacked up and over that piling, then ran over a couple more before crossing the whole mess. Naturally Stephen was freaking out over this. So they did not see any water in the hull at all, and ran back to the dock to get her on trailer and assess the damage. 

Strangely enough, the only damage was some scratched gel coat on one of the strakes, and a faint imprint of one of the posts as it very slightly dimpled the bottom near the starboard stern ahead of the transom. And that was it. No other visible damage at all. Crazy huh? 

Next, he was telling me about another guide who runs a non-tunnel Chittum and don't remember his name, (Matt prolly knows who I am referring to) but he hit a sandbar I think, and hard enough he thought the transom had to be seriously damaged. Well, it turns out that the motor was pretty much ruined, as it twisted it all out of shape, but the transom experienced no damage at all from this very hard sideways blow to the motor as he was trying to avoid collision. This is the story, I did not personally observe any of this but at least there is good anecdotal evidence that these boats are just about near-bullet-proof but of course some peeps could figure out how to tear up an anvil with a rubber mallet LOL. 

SO am I worried about the longevity and durability of carbon fiber? Nah not at all not even remotely. There was a quick video Stephen made of George just beating the snot out of a carbon fiber panel that they use on their lower step of the poling platform, he was just wailing on that thing with a big ball peen hammer and the hammer was just bouncing off the surface without doing much more than leaving slight indentations on the surface. Very little cracked spidering etc. at all. I really wish I could find that darn video. 

SO, looks like to me I will be getting a very highly tuned and near-indestructible fishing tool. Works for me. Unfortunately there appears to be a plethora of much more worrying stuff out there than concern about if boat will be able to stand up to the rigors of extreme shallow-water fishing.


----------



## CKEAT

I would like to get a ride on one at some point. Who has one in POC or Mansfield? Usually where I go.


Matts said:


> Everything. It weighs 350 pounds, at the most and is dead quiet on the pole.
> 
> I don’t think it’s going to be a problem. Stevie (aka skiff junkie) has had numerous Chittum’s and one has made multiple rough water crossings from FL-Bahamas. HB has a 5 yr hull warranty. Chittum has a 10. Hal believes in his product and the full carbon LM 2 is a marvel of engineering. I’ve never, ever seen a skiff get this close to fish. Yeah, I drank the punch but Chittum broke the mold and left everyone else trying to figure out how to modify their 20 yr old molds. It’s a game changer.


That 5 year warranty is exactly the reason I will never own a new hells bay, I have one but simply by circumstance. 

I am sure my next tech skiff will be a Chittum. I will observe few more years (god willing) and enjoy some fishing first though.


----------



## JC Designs

commtrd said:


> Word is that there are near and first-hand accounts of collisions with sandbars or old duck blinds (posts sticking up out of the bottom) and Chittum hulls. If this kind of info upsets some apologies in advance. Anyway, talking with Stephen Ford the other day about this very thing strangely enough. I asked him how resilient to blunt-force impact carbon fiber was. Stephen replied that just last weekend, he was running around with JT Van Zandt, a local guide, and they were running down aways from a shoreline, looking away at where some birds were going crazy in the distance (not really paying attention) and unfortunately impacted a group of fairly substantial pilings from an old abandoned duck blind. And they were moving along smartly too. The boat hit, got jacked up and over that piling, then ran over a couple more before crossing the whole mess. Naturally Stephen was freaking out over this. So they did not see any water in the hull at all, and ran back to the dock to get her on trailer and assess the damage.
> 
> Strangely enough, the only damage was some scratched gel coat on one of the strakes, and a faint imprint of one of the posts as it very slightly dimpled the bottom near the starboard stern ahead of the transom. And that was it. No other visible damage at all. Crazy huh?
> 
> Next, he was telling me about another guide who runs a non-tunnel Chittum and don't remember his name, (Matt prolly knows who I am referring to) but he hit a sandbar I think, and hard enough he thought the transom had to be seriously damaged. Well, it turns out that the motor was pretty much ruined, as it twisted it all out of shape, but the transom experienced no damage at all from this very hard sideways blow to the motor as he was trying to avoid collision. This is the story, I did not personally observe any of this but at least there is good anecdotal evidence that these boats are just about near-bullet-proof but of course some peeps could figure out how to tear up an anvil with a rubber mallet LOL.
> 
> SO am I worried about the longevity and durability of carbon fiber? Nah not at all not even remotely. There was a quick video Stephen made of George just beating the snot out of a carbon fiber panel that they use on their lower step of the poling platform, he was just wailing on that thing with a big ball peen hammer and the hammer was just bouncing off the surface without doing much more than leaving slight indentations on the surface. Very little cracked spidering etc. at all. I really wish I could find that darn video.
> 
> SO, looks like to me I will be getting a very highly tuned and near-indestructible fishing tool. Works for me. Unfortunately there appears to be a plethora of much more worrying stuff out there than concern about if boat will be able to stand up to the rigors of extreme shallow-water fishing.


Doesn’t upset me at all! As has been mentioned already, it’s all in the engineering! I know there are several engineers on this forum. Shape, super structure, fiber orientation/weave/weight, along with resin matrix all comes in to play. Chittums are a well built boat that takes all that into account. Unfortunately, not all builders do or will and just throw the CF in there for a selling point! And end up with a brittle mess that would have been better in fiberglass.


----------



## Matts

commtrd said:


> Word is that there are near and first-hand accounts of collisions with sandbars or old duck blinds (posts sticking up out of the bottom) and Chittum hulls. If this kind of info upsets some apologies in advance. Anyway, talking with Stephen Ford the other day about this very thing strangely enough. I asked him how resilient to blunt-force impact carbon fiber was. Stephen replied that just last weekend, he was running around with JT Van Zandt, a local guide, and they were running down aways from a shoreline, looking away at where some birds were going crazy in the distance (not really paying attention) and unfortunately impacted a group of fairly substantial pilings from an old abandoned duck blind. And they were moving along smartly too. The boat hit, got jacked up and over that piling, then ran over a couple more before crossing the whole mess. Naturally Stephen was freaking out over this. So they did not see any water in the hull at all, and ran back to the dock to get her on trailer and assess the damage.
> 
> Strangely enough, the only damage was some scratched gel coat on one of the strakes, and a faint imprint of one of the posts as it very slightly dimpled the bottom near the starboard stern ahead of the transom. And that was it. No other visible damage at all. Crazy huh?
> 
> Next, he was telling me about another guide who runs a non-tunnel Chittum and don't remember his name, (Matt prolly knows who I am referring to) but he hit a sandbar I think, and hard enough he thought the transom had to be seriously damaged. Well, it turns out that the motor was pretty much ruined, as it twisted it all out of shape, but the transom experienced no damage at all from this very hard sideways blow to the motor as he was trying to avoid collision. This is the story, I did not personally observe any of this but at least there is good anecdotal evidence that these boats are just about near-bullet-proof but of course some peeps could figure out how to tear up an anvil with a rubber mallet LOL.
> 
> SO am I worried about the longevity and durability of carbon fiber? Nah not at all not even remotely. There was a quick video Stephen made of George just beating the snot out of a carbon fiber panel that they use on their lower step of the poling platform, he was just wailing on that thing with a big ball peen hammer and the hammer was just bouncing off the surface without doing much more than leaving slight indentations on the surface. Very little cracked spidering etc. at all. I really wish I could find that darn video.
> 
> SO, looks like to me I will be getting a very highly tuned and near-indestructible fishing tool. Works for me. Unfortunately there appears to be a plethora of much more worrying stuff out there than concern about if boat will be able to stand up to the rigors of extreme shallow-water fishing.


I don’t know the guide who hit a sand bar but I don’t doubt the story. From videos George posted, and from what the folks at Chittum say, even when you punch a hole in a carbon fiber hull, the whole doesn’t propagate up and down the hull like a glass skiff.


----------



## Matts

CKEAT said:


> I would like to get a ride on one at some point. Who has one in POC or Mansfield? Usually where I go.
> 
> That 5 year warranty is exactly the reason I will never own a new hells bay, I have one but simply by circumstance.
> 
> I am sure my next tech skiff will be a Chittum. I will observe few more years (god willing) and enjoy some fishing first though.





CKEAT said:


> I would like to get a ride on one at some point. Who has one in POC or Mansfield? Usually where I go.
> 
> That 5 year warranty is exactly the reason I will never own a new hells bay, I have one but simply by circumstance.
> 
> I am sure my next tech skiff will be a Chittum. I will observe few more years (god willing) and enjoy some fishing first though.


Your best bet is to contact Stephen Ford in Rockport as he is the Chittum rep and has a full carbon, non-tunnel LM 2. JT Vanzandt is a guide in Rockport and just took delivery of his new full carbon tunnel (2nd Chittum I believe) but is much busier as he’s booked out for months. I’m happy to take you out in POC or RP but much harder to schedule as I’m a very busy guy. Love to take you out on the skiff. Mines hull #1 of the full carbon LM2 (lighter laminate) and Stephens is hull #2. I may build another one some day and after fishing and trialing other skiffs, would not own another for TX. I even try to get the guide to use my skiff when I can as I just enjoy her so much.
Best,
Matt


----------



## CKEAT

Matts said:


> Your best bet is to contact Stephen Ford in Rockport as he is the Chittum rep and has a full carbon, non-tunnel LM 2. JT Vanzandt is a guide in Rockport and just took delivery of his new full carbon tunnel (2nd Chittum I believe) but is much busier as he’s booked out for months. I’m happy to take you out in POC or RP but much harder to schedule as I’m a very busy guy. Love to take you out on the skiff. Mines hull #1 of the full carbon LM2 (lighter laminate) and Stephens is hull #2. I may build another one some day and after fishing and trialing other skiffs, would not own another for TX. I even try to get the guide to use my skiff when I can as I just enjoy her so much.
> Best,
> Matt


Thanks for the info and I hear ya on the busy part, sucks life gets in the way of the things that are really worth doing day to day. 

I am one of those guys that should be a little afraid to get on one too because if it’s actually what is touted, it will drive new nuts not having one.

I do have my pro set up very well right now so I can get by for a bit, it’s been a great boat but needed some changes to operate like I need it to in Texas.

I know, first world problems!


----------



## commtrd

If you have a fairly late-model Pro, and go with Stephen Ford or someone else and pole a full-carbon LM2, don't say you were not warned ahead of time. I vividly remember the very first time I took my Pro out down in Nighthawk, with the HB rep at the time John McCain; trying to get the pig on plane in a foot of water and she just dragged her tail and said no way jose. With the motor lifted all the way, it was like a standard mount on a non-tunnel transom. I had to pole out to a couple feet of water to finally get her on plane. (That kind of performance in the LLM may lead to several hours of trying to pole back out to deep enough to get up in, the whole reason for the tunnel in the first place). I was not a happy camper. That lead to fabricating a way to lift the motor on the jackplate, which mostly fixed that issue. Beautiful boat, but very heavy. What a dramatic difference on the pole with a light Chittum. I started pushing that one around and had to dial the effort WAY BACK as I was just pushing it way too hard, thinking it would be like my Pro. Nope. However, saying all that, the HB boats are fishable and well-built. If I had not sold mine, I would no doubt still have it but since I did, I had to do something about replacing it. Before all the die-hard HB guys get all wound up and offended, stop right there since this is not a HB bash-a-thon. Just an honest discussion blah blah blah.


----------



## wardicus

Sha


commtrd said:


> Word is that there are near and first-hand accounts of collisions with sandbars or old duck blinds (posts sticking up out of the bottom) and Chittum hulls. If this kind of info upsets some apologies in advance. Anyway, talking with Stephen Ford the other day about this very thing strangely enough. I asked him how resilient to blunt-force impact carbon fiber was. Stephen replied that just last weekend, he was running around with JT Van Zandt, a local guide, and they were running down aways from a shoreline, looking away at where some birds were going crazy in the distance (not really paying attention) and unfortunately impacted a group of fairly substantial pilings from an old abandoned duck blind. And they were moving along smartly too. The boat hit, got jacked up and over that piling, then ran over a couple more before crossing the whole mess. Naturally Stephen was freaking out over this. So they did not see any water in the hull at all, and ran back to the dock to get her on trailer and assess the damage.
> 
> Strangely enough, the only damage was some scratched gel coat on one of the strakes, and a faint imprint of one of the posts as it very slightly dimpled the bottom near the starboard stern ahead of the transom. And that was it. No other visible damage at all. Crazy huh?
> 
> Next, he was telling me about another guide who runs a non-tunnel Chittum and don't remember his name, (Matt prolly knows who I am referring to) but he hit a sandbar I think, and hard enough he thought the transom had to be seriously damaged. Well, it turns out that the motor was pretty much ruined, as it twisted it all out of shape, but the transom experienced no damage at all from this very hard sideways blow to the motor as he was trying to avoid collision. This is the story, I did not personally observe any of this but at least there is good anecdotal evidence that these boats are just about near-bullet-proof but of course some peeps could figure out how to tear up an anvil with a rubber mallet LOL.
> 
> SO am I worried about the longevity and durability of carbon fiber? Nah not at all not even remotely. There was a quick video Stephen made of George just beating the snot out of a carbon fiber panel that they use on their lower step of the poling platform, he was just wailing on that thing with a big ball peen hammer and the hammer was just bouncing off the surface without doing much more than leaving slight indentations on the surface. Very little cracked spidering etc. at all. I really wish I could find that darn video.
> 
> SO, looks like to me I will be getting a very highly tuned and near-indestructible fishing tool. Works for me. Unfortunately there appears to be a plethora of much more worrying stuff out there than concern about if boat will be able to stand up to the rigors of extreme shallow-water fishing.


its obviously not the fishing part that takes a toll . It more like the examples you just mentioned . Or Running in big water and pounding year after year . Weather, conditions, our own errors no mater how much we try . Hb makes a great long lasting product . I’m sure the Chittum is as phenomenal as everyone says ... Hell I hope it’s nothing but positive over the next few years I’ll consider them when it’s time for the next skiff . Also would like to see the vid .... I don’t do the gram or snap or any of that so granted I’m not in touch with all this social media info .


----------



## commtrd

Stephen sent me the video, but it may be on my home PC or may just be taken down. Oh well.


----------



## Stevie

Carbon strength test:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BtWOk5BFHKM/?igshid=txqht6px1466


----------



## CKEAT

commtrd said:


> If you have a fairly late-model Pro, and go with Stephen Ford or someone else and pole a full-carbon LM2, don't say you were not warned ahead of time. I vividly remember the very first time I took my Pro out down in Nighthawk, with the HB rep at the time John McCain; trying to get the pig on plane in a foot of water and she just dragged her tail and said no way jose. With the motor lifted all the way, it was like a standard mount on a non-tunnel transom. I had to pole out to a couple feet of water to finally get her on plane. (That kind of performance in the LLM may lead to several hours of trying to pole back out to deep enough to get up in, the whole reason for the tunnel in the first place). I was not a happy camper. That lead to fabricating a way to lift the motor on the jackplate, which mostly fixed that issue. Beautiful boat, but very heavy. What a dramatic difference on the pole with a light Chittum. I started pushing that one around and had to dial the effort WAY BACK as I was just pushing it way too hard, thinking it would be like my Pro. Nope. However, saying all that, the HB boats are fishable and well-built. If I had not sold mine, I would no doubt still have it but since I did, I had to do something about replacing it. Before all the die-hard HB guys get all wound up and offended, stop right there since this is not a HB bash-a-thon. Just an honest discussion blah blah blah.


Hahaha, yea I would imagine some hells bay folks will not like that post. I don't mind though I have not seen quite that lack of performance. It is side console with lithium batteries and it is balanced out with the equipment in the right places now. It is likely on the lighter end of normal HB Pros. I am running jack plate mounted at top, motor mounted at top of JP, cav plate and foreman prop. I like it pretty well so far.


----------



## JC Designs

JC Designs said:


> Doesn’t upset me at all! As has been mentioned already, it’s all in the engineering! I know there are several engineers on this forum. Shape, super structure, fiber orientation/weave/weight, along with resin matrix all comes in to play. Chittums are a well built boat that takes all that into account. Unfortunately, not all builders do or will and just throw the CF in there for a selling point! And end up with a brittle mess that would have been better in fiberglass.





Stevie said:


> Carbon strength test:
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BtWOk5BFHKM/?igshid=txqht6px1466


Just watched it, and proves my point. All about the weave, structure, resin!


----------



## JC Designs

So just heard back from Chittum. They’ve been doing full carbon builds for around 2.5 years now. When you consider the fact that several of those were for guides that fish hard I’d say the lamination schedule is proven and will last as long as any! Hope this helps clear the air on longevity, James!


----------



## commtrd

Stevie said:


> Carbon strength test:
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BtWOk5BFHKM/?igshid=txqht6px1466


That's the one! Thanks Stevie!


----------



## DBStoots

Seven pages!


----------



## JC Designs

DBStoots said:


> Seven pages!


And counting! Started off as a HB thread and we’re on Chittum now. Waiting for the East Cape crowd now!


----------



## commtrd

Its all good. I so much enjoy boats motors fly fishing threads rather than political virus type threads. Prolly a lot of guys feel that way guessing...


----------



## JC Designs

commtrd said:


> Its all good. I so much enjoy boats motors fly fishing threads rather than political virus type threads. Prolly a lot of guys feel that way guessing...


Me too, but will speak my mind over there too!


----------



## sjrobin

I like Hal and his skiffs and do not intend to disparage anyone, but one more time, and as a guide who enjoys hunting fish in wind and who has fished three different Laguna Madre Chittum skiffs plus HB Glades skiffs, all great shallow fish hunters, the hull is a little too light for poling in heavy wind. The Chittum Laguna Madre is however, the best skiff for most people to push around along the windy Texas coast. Ok so most people don't like to fish or not capable of pushing a skiff into a head or quartering wind, so for most skiff owners the Chittum is the dream skiff. The 12 degree Chittum widely used in Florida is a different story(the hull shape helps it track) If I lived in Florida I would own the 12 deg and hold Hal to the hull warranty. In a few years, I will not be able to push skiffs as effectively and if I am still around and able to maintain balance will switch to a non-tunnel Laguna Madre.


----------



## Matts

sjrobin said:


> I like Hal and his skiffs and do not intend to disparage anyone, but one more time, and as a guide who enjoys hunting fish in wind and who has fished three different Laguna Madre Chittum skiffs plus HB Glades skiffs, all great shallow fish hunters, the hull is a little too light for poling in heavy wind. The Chittum Laguna Madre is however, the best skiff for most people to push around along the windy Texas coast. Ok so most people don't like to fish or not capable of pushing a skiff into a head or quartering wind, so for most skiff owners the Chittum is the dream skiff. The 12 degree Chittum widely used in Florida is a different story(the hull shape helps it track) If I lived in Florida I would own the 12 deg and hold Hal to the hull warranty. In a few years, I will not be able to push skiffs as effectively and if I am still around and able to maintain balance will switch to a non-tunnel Laguna Madre.


Good points Steve. I’ve not poled a Pro but even though I’m not super muscular, find the full carbon LM2 fairly easy to pole into the wind. I’ve poled a 1/2 carbon LM and it was not as easy to pole into the wind. The Chittum is wider than the Pro (correct me if I’m wrong) so find it a little challenging to get it lined out, but then it’s fine. For reference, I’m a thin 6’2” and can handle some weights but surely no hulk. I have definitely noticed that when my 15 yr old was only 14 and 90#, he didn’t weigh enough to keep the bow down in the wind. Moved the 45 qt Yeti from CC area to deck and it was great. With 3 people or now that my son is 130#, it poles well. I’m 185 and it also does well with my son and a 240# guy. The skiff is wide enough that it handles weight very well. For reference, Steve poled my LM2 prior to my purchase so he does have experience.


----------



## commtrd

Don't know how many agonizing self-dialogues I went thru rationalizing non-tunnel vs tunnel hull. I really wanted to try a non-tunnel hull, but was thinking how mad I would be at myself if I got stuck outgoing tide in LLM and couldn't pole my way out until tide incoming. It is seriously shallow just about everywhere I tend to fish, so bit the bullet and ordered a tunnel. On the other hand, a non-tunnel would help keep me out of places I shouldn't be to start with so there's that. Kinda like 4wd just helps get you really good and stuck a lot of times. 

Anyway, the tunnel will help protect seagrasses, and I tend to be very conservative any more in how I operate a boat. Plus I am 61 now so having a lighter boat to pole will be a blessing.


----------



## CKEAT

commtrd said:


> If you have a fairly late-model Pro, and go with Stephen Ford or someone





commtrd said:


> Its all good. I so much enjoy boats motors fly fishing threads rather than political virus type threads. Prolly a lot of guys feel that way guessing...


Amen!


----------



## Matts

I love all things skiffs. I owned one bigger boat and sold it in less time than 6 months. I love skiffs, for the places they take me and the ease of dealing with them.


----------



## Stevie

Agree on philosophy of enjoying the best skiff one can, now...

The 22 year old Whipray #7 listed for sale on this site was hand laid by CM with 1/2 inch core, biaxial glass and Vinylester resin. HB purposely doesn’t build so light any more. When we refurbished #7 we decided to rebuild the transom. It is a very strong boat; would be happy to share a video running that boat if you PM.

The infusion techniques Chittum is using with epoxy, and various options on carbon add many multitudes of strength to early HBs, while delivering super light boats that should last much longer. The light weight makes a huge difference: Chittum’s 12 degree boats draft around 7”, rivaling most others’ 2 degree in draft. My experience with the Chittum 2 degree confirm the LM discussion above. The only thing I would add is that keeping the boat level is very important to draft and poling. Whipray #7 and 4 Chittums taught me that vs
other HBs I’ve had.

The photo below shows a non-tunnel Waterman 16 running a 209 pound Tohatsu 50. I prefer the 110 pound Mercury 25 HB Whipray 16 was designed around.


----------



## EdK13

commtrd said:


> Consider this: the fed conjures up TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS out of thin air weekly. The very concept of money is now hopelessly skewed out of reality. The train wreck WILL HAPPEN someday. Unavoidable. SO: I acknowledge this as the reality. When? No crystal ball here. Verdict: I go to FL end of July to pick up my Chittum Laguna Madre 2 tunnel. I intend to try to enjoy life much as possible doing what I like to do (fly fishing, art, photography) to live and capture the coastal water-borne lifestyle much as possible until the fecal matter doth coat the proverbial fanblades.
> 
> OK so was this boat stupid expensive? Of course. Is it a status symbol or any other such non-sense? Of course not. Simply, I know of no other skiff currently sold that will do what that boat does. There is to be no fanfare, no pictures, no nothing relating to my boat on any online forum whatsoever. Other than current discussion within the context of the "bigger picture".
> 
> When the dollar finally reaches that fateful day where it has absolutely zero value (just about there LOL), is the cost of my skiff going to matter much in the big scheme of things? I submit that it will not. What matters? Time, and the relative quality of that rarest of all commodities. Live it to the fullest, and worry not about the money. Time is short...


I be waiting to buy this one -


----------



## CKEAT

The really like the way I have this pro set up, great for me though I am 6’3” 220 and spend 6 days a weeks in the gym. 

I personally don’t see the issue with this boat, I had it so shallow this last weekend I could not believe it (guy on front was only 160). 

With all that said, my experience with this boat is really good after set up properly and I have fished the LLM in it.

Maybe I am not gauging something properly but I will keep enjoying it and maybe my next rig will have to check all this Chittum hype out. I like trying new things for sure!


----------



## devrep

Stevie said:


> Agree on philosophy of enjoying the best skiff one can, now...
> 
> The 22 year old Whipray #7 listed for sale on this site was hand laid by CM with 1/2 inch core, biaxial glass and Vinylester resin. HB purposely doesn’t build so light any more. When we refurbished #7 we decided to rebuild the transom. It is a very strong boat; would be happy to share a video running that boat if you PM.
> 
> The infusion techniques Chittum is using with epoxy, and various options on carbon add many multitudes of strength to early HBs, while delivering super light boats that should last much longer. The light weight makes a huge difference: Chittum’s 12 degree boats draft around 7”, rivaling most others’ 2 degree in draft. My experience with the Chittum 2 degree confirm the LM discussion above. The only thing I would add is that keeping the boat level is very important to draft and poling. Whipray #7 and 4 Chittums taught me that vs
> other HBs I’ve had.
> 
> The photo below shows how a 16 Non-tunnel Waterman/Whipray can’t really handle a 209 pound Tohatsu 50 vs the 110 pound Mercury 25 they were designed for. The guide (now runs a LM2) is a minimalist and didn’t load an unnecessary ounce of gear on that skiff; he is of similar weight to the sport.
> View attachment 143652


or you could put one of these bad boys on there at 159 lbs


----------



## devrep

or this at 112 lbs.


----------



## CKEAT

As far as draft, we poled through this with a trolling motor and two 44lb batteries up front. So the weight up front with person was at least 250. Me at 220 on the back. Was before Lithiums and I usually don’t take a trolling motor but wife likes to drift for reds and trout sometimes as well (super windy). 

I simply won’t complain about this draft and I didn’t measure it but it’s as shallow as I need to get. Nobody is jumping up on plane in that. 

blocked her out because I am not sure she wants to be posted on media forum.


----------



## Sublime

JC Designs said:


> Here’s my completely unbiased opinion on the carbon. It will hold up perfectly fine barring any accidents like hitting a rock, stump, etc... in which case it will not be happy! It’s a great material for 95% of folks. I’ll be doing X-2.0 in full carbon one off fashion and it will be stupid light but not as resilient as a fiberglass hull.



Is it done yet?


----------



## JC Designs

Sublime said:


> Is it done yet?


Nope, this one will be fun though


----------



## scissorhands

Does Chittum make a good skiff=yes
Does HB make a good skiff= yes
I've been in both, my HB pro hits the mold this week. Your milage may vary.


----------



## CKEAT

scissorhands said:


> Does Chittum make a good skiff=yes
> Does HB make a good skiff= yes
> I've been in both, my HB pro hits the mold this week. Your milage may vary.


Man I agree, I think Chittum likely makes a better skiff. No arguments there. 

I just think the really dark views of the pro I have heard and seen posted just don’t seem quite as bad with what I have seen. That is all I was stating. 

I like them all. I will gladly take one of each!


----------



## commtrd

devrep said:


> or this at 112 lbs.
> View attachment 143664


Only problem with those is my transom is built for a 15" shaft, quite on purpose. That way the poling platform does not have to be sitting 8 feet up in the air to clear the motor on lift. What would really be awesome is if Tohatsu would build a 2-stroke motor like those above, but with a 15" shaft length... Prolly sell a million of them. 

Darn it this thread is becoming a pretty cool deal yes? Love engaging in conversations about boats and motors.


----------



## CKEAT

commtrd said:


> Only problem with those is my transom is built for a 15" shaft, quite on purpose. That way the poling platform does not have to be sitting 8 feet up in the air to clear the motor on lift. What would really be awesome is if Tohatsu would build a 2-stroke motor like those above, but with a 15" shaft length... Prolly sell a million of them.
> 
> Darn it this thread is becoming a pretty cool deal yes? Love engaging in conversations about boats and motors.


I agree with short shaft, I don’t know why Yamaha doesn’t offer it or at least aftermarket config!


----------



## commtrd

scissorhands said:


> Does Chittum make a good skiff=yes
> Does HB make a good skiff= yes
> I've been in both, my HB pro hits the mold this week. Your milage may vary.


That boat will be awesome! don't give a minute's thought to what everyone else is running or mouthing off about. Just go fishing and don't look back. Time is short. Just git 'er done!


----------



## scissorhands

commtrd said:


> Only problem with those is my transom is built for a 15" shaft, quite on purpose. That way the poling platform does not have to be sitting 8 feet up in the air to clear the motor on lift. What would really be awesome is if Tohatsu would build a 2-stroke motor like those above, but with a 15" shaft length... Prolly sell a million of them.
> 
> Darn it this thread is becoming a pretty cool deal yes? Love engaging in conversations about boats and motors.


Tohatsu makes the 60 with a 15" shaft


----------



## Matts

CKEAT said:


> As far as draft, we poled through this with a trolling motor and two 44lb batteries up front. So the weight up front with person was at least 250. Me at 220 on the back. Was before Lithiums and I usually don’t take a trolling motor but wife likes to drift for reds and trout sometimes as well (super windy).
> 
> I simply won’t complain about this draft and I didn’t measure it but it’s as shallow as I need to get. Nobody is jumping up on plane in that.
> 
> blocked her out because I am not sure she wants to be posted on media forum.


Sounds you have the Pro dialed in!


----------



## commtrd

EdK13 said:


> I be waiting to buy this one -


I wouldn't hold your breath waiting on that to happen... learned my lesson from selling my pro and shouldn't have. Nope this boat is gonna stay put.


----------



## scissorhands

for the record, I have been in all the boats talked about and can spin any of the up while sitting in mud.


----------



## commtrd

scissorhands said:


> Tohatsu makes the 60 with a 15" shaft


Yes they do. I have a black 60 hp with 15" shaft already in the shop at Chittum. 
#blackenginesmatter
=)


----------



## loganlogan

sjrobin said:


> I like Hal and his skiffs and do not intend to disparage anyone, but one more time, and as a guide who enjoys hunting fish in wind and who has fished three different Laguna Madre Chittum skiffs plus HB Glades skiffs, all great shallow fish hunters, the hull is a little too light for poling in heavy wind. The Chittum Laguna Madre is however, the best skiff for most people to push around along the windy Texas coast. Ok so most people don't like to fish or not capable of pushing a skiff into a head or quartering wind, so for most skiff owners the Chittum is the dream skiff. The 12 degree Chittum widely used in Florida is a different story(the hull shape helps it track) If I lived in Florida I would own the 12 deg and hold Hal to the hull warranty. In a few years, I will not be able to push skiffs as effectively and if I am still around and able to maintain balance will switch to a non-tunnel Laguna Madre.


Why not a tunnel? Does a standard style track better?


----------



## devrep

my posts on the light tohatsu's was in response to the post saying the 209lb 50 was too heavy for the old HB 16 footer.


----------



## EdK13

Wel


commtrd said:


> I wouldn't hold your breath waiting on that to happen... learned my lesson from selling my pro and shouldn't have. Nope this boat is gonna stay put.


Well, now I know you won't sell this one.


----------



## CKEAT

Matts said:


> Sounds you have the Pro dialed in!


As much as it is going to be I guess.


----------



## Matts

scissorhands said:


> for the record, I have been in all the boats talked about and can spin any of the up while sitting in mud.[/QUOTE
> Sure but hard sand like we have in S TX?


----------



## scissorhands

definetly not in hard sand. Wouldn't we all like that?


----------



## sjrobin

Stevie said:


> Agree on philosophy of enjoying the best skiff one can, now...
> 
> The 22 year old Whipray #7 listed for sale on this site was hand laid by CM with 1/2 inch core, biaxial glass and Vinylester resin. HB purposely doesn’t build so light any more. When we refurbished #7 we decided to rebuild the transom. It is a very strong boat; would be happy to share a video running that boat if you PM.
> 
> The infusion techniques Chittum is using with epoxy, and various options on carbon add many multitudes of strength to early HBs, while delivering super light boats that should last much longer. The light weight makes a huge difference: Chittum’s 12 degree boats draft around 7”, rivaling most others’ 2 degree in draft. My experience with the Chittum 2 degree confirm the LM discussion above. The only thing I would add is that keeping the boat level is very important to draft and poling. Whipray #7 and 4 Chittums taught me that vs
> other HBs I’ve had.
> 
> The photo below shows how a 16 Non-tunnel Waterman/Whipray can’t really handle a 209 pound Tohatsu 50 vs the 110 pound Mercury 25 they were designed for. The guide (now runs a LM2) is a minimalist and didn’t load an unnecessary ounce of gear on that skiff; he is of similar weight to the sport.
> View attachment 143652


Stevie knows the skiff world. Floating level with a fishing load is critical to poling in any wind. Dustin Huff talks about it in the Millhouse interview. A floating object that is too light is also difficult to control down wind speed. Consumes a lot of poling energy slowing the skiff down quietly and can push the poler right off the platform.


----------



## scissorhands

commtrd said:


> Yes they do. I have a black 60 hp with 15" shaft already in the shop at Chittum.
> #blackenginesmatter
> =)


in the shop ready to be installed I hope. Im going with the 60 on the pro as well.


----------



## CKEAT

scissorhands said:


> in the shop ready to be installed I hope. Im going with the 60 on the pro as well.


I would love to hear how this goes for you. Interesting motor, you going with the short shaft.


----------



## Matts

scissorhands said:


> in the shop ready to be installed I hope. Im going with the 60 on the pro as well.


HB told me they could “experiment”‘with the 60 Tohatsu short shaft but that it might cavitate. I didn’t want to be the Guinea pig. You putting a short shaft on the Pro?


----------



## sotilloa1078

I like where this thread has gone. Good points and real world experience.


----------



## commtrd

scissorhands said:


> in the shop ready to be installed I hope. Im going with the 60 on the pro as well.


I bet that short shaft 60 on a pro tunnel would just be tits. For a few reasons: 1-the lighter weight. 2-they could mount it just like they do and it would match the tunnel perfect. 3-they could make the PP substantially shorter. 

When I was thinking hard about which boat to order, I really gave a lot of consideration to how I wanted it set up. I really liked the poling platform on sjrobins boat and talked with HB about duplicating that if I ordered another pro or Waterman, as low and forward as they would make it. In fact the poling platform on the Chittum was one of the reasons I decided on that boat.


----------



## Matts

commtrd said:


> I bet that short shaft 60 on a pro tunnel would just be tits. For a few reasons: 1-the lighter weight. 2-they could mount it just like they do and it would match the tunnel perfect. 3-they could make the PP substantially shorter.
> 
> When I was thinking hard about which boat to order, I really gave a lot of consideration to how I wanted it set up. I really liked the poling platform on sjrobins boat and talked with HB about duplicating that if I ordered another pro or Waterman, as low and forward as they would make it. In fact the poling platform on the Chittum was one of the reasons I decided on that boat.


.
The Chittum front step is absolute genius, and a huge safety factor when I’m getting down quickly to help land a fish. It would be cool to wet test a Pro with SS engine and prop sitting in the tunnel. That being said, with a light Chittum, I don’t miss my old tunnel (custom 18’ Jon boat for 16 yrs) at all. It’s easier not to mess with one. I have engine (15” 50hp Tohatsu) as high up as possible. One of my guide buddies ran it the other day and suggested I may need to drop it one notch. It’s got about an 8-10” hole shot on sand so I’m reluctant to change it. Shaw Wing cav plate and I think Hal has it mostly perfect. I can’t get the bow up much as set up but doesn’t bother me. I like the increased displacement without the tunnel and lack of noise. For the record, I was totally in the tunnel camp prior to buying this one barely used but Hal was correct in saying it’s not really needed. I don’t miss it.


----------



## commtrd

Hal tried to talk me out of the tunnel and so did George. I did listen to them on everything else, but I didnt get a chance to ride on a non-tunnel deep into the east side in LLM and typically if no tunnel, you're not going there end of story. Even Stevie advised me that if I am serious about extreme shallow water running like that, better go for the tunnel. So I did. And I bet I will not regret it either. Saying that, I saw stuff with Stephen's non-tunnel that was amazing. Hal has told me about JT Van Zandt chasing Stephen around on his tunnel Chittum trying to get Stephen to ground it and couldn't really do it.


----------



## Matts

commtrd said:


> Hal tried to talk me out of the tunnel and so did George. I did listen to them on everything else, but I didnt get a chance to ride on a non-tunnel deep into the east side in LLM and typically if no tunnel, you're not going there end of story. Even Stevie advised me that if I am serious about extreme shallow water running like that, better go for the tunnel. So I did. And I bet I will not regret it either. Saying that, I saw stuff with Stephen's non-tunnel that was amazing. Hal has told me about JT Van Zandt chasing Stephen around on his tunnel Chittum trying to get Stephen to ground it and couldn't really do it.


Yeah, I think you made the right call to go with the tunnel. We will run south out of Bird when you get yours and see how they compare. I haven’t been down south in about 12 months and 25 days


----------



## Surffshr

Good thread folks! Good insight and discussion(s). 

To the OP, the “little boat, big price tag” is real and tough to get over. If I’d have known what i know now, I’d have bought my current boat (or maybe a whipray) new. Which in ‘01 was about the first time I laid eyes on a poling skiff. It was a ‘00 or so Whip and was so GD sexy I just couldn’t stand it...but it didn’t have a big motor or a tunnel or...well...Actually, I didn’t know what the hell one would do with it! And it cost a pile of money (more than a new truck). So I did not pursue one...

If you are a sight fisherman, hang here for a while, research, run, fish, and then buy the best boat you can.


----------



## MariettaMike

Considering where the OP lives I don’t see him needing the latest and greatest in technical poling skiffs.

Buying a good used boat is the best first step any newcomer to the sport should take.

Considering Hell’s Bay skiffs have a proven track record for holding resale value I wouldn’t hesitate on buying one.

I think there are a couple side console Watermans for sale under $40k that would be an awesome first skiff for the Titusville area.

Especially that green one that was built for Flip.


----------



## loganlogan

Surffshr said:


> Good thread folks! Good insight and discussion(s).
> 
> To the OP, the “little boat, big price tag” is real and tough to get over. If I’d have known what i know now, I’d have bought my current boat (or maybe a whipray) new. Which in ‘01 was about the first time I laid eyes on a poling skiff. It was a ‘00 or so Whip and was so GD sexy I just couldn’t stand it...but it didn’t have a big motor or a tunnel or...well...Actually, I didn’t know what the hell one would do with it! And it cost a pile of money (more than a new truck). So I did not pursue one...
> 
> If you are a sight fisherman, hang here for a while, research, run, fish, and then buy the best boat you can.


I joined this website, hell's Bay was mentioned. They are 10 minutes from me. I didn't realize the can of worms, this question would open. It's really been eye opening.


----------



## loganlogan

MariettaMike said:


> Considering where the OP lives I don’t see him needing the latest and greatest in technical poling skiffs.
> 
> Buying a good used boat is the best first step any newcomer to the sport should take.
> 
> Considering Hell’s Bay skiffs have a proven track record for holding resale value I wouldn’t hesitate on buying one.
> 
> I think there are a couple side console Watermans for sale under $40k that would be an awesome first skiff for the Titusville area.
> 
> Especially that green one that was built for Flip.


I've only waded and kayaked out in the mosquito lagoon/Indian River. What do you mean, when you say this area doesn't need the latest and greatest?


----------



## devrep

the discussion these guys are having about the chittum boats is focusing on the Nth degree of improvements to this type of boat. things you and I will never miss. my dad caught more and bigger fish out of a 14 ft Feathercraft aluminum skiff built in 1955 than I ever will in my hells bay.


----------



## scissorhands

Matts said:


> HB told me they could “experiment”‘with the 60 Tohatsu short shaft but that it might cavitate. I didn’t want to be the Guinea pig. You putting a short shaft on the Pro?


I am putting a short shaft and jackplate on the new HB pro.


----------



## BPancamo

scissorhands said:


> I am putting a short shaft and jackplate on the new HB pro.


I will be interested to hear your performance with the Tohatsu 60. I run a 2012 HB Pro with the Yamaha F70. I love the skiff; it does most everything I want....perfect, no... but it is about as versatile a skiff as I’ve been on. That Tohatsu with the 15” shaft has me interested, and as mentioned earlier in this thread, you could probably get by with a much shorter poling platform, which would be nice.


----------



## DBStoots

Anybody looked at these?


----------



## sjrobin

scissorhands said:


> I am putting a short shaft and jackplate on the new HB pro.


Tohatsu reliability has been a problem, but lets see if Tohatsu improves. Certainly more noise and vibration than Yamaha. Still waiting to see if anyone has more than just 500 hundred no problem hours on the 50/60 four stroke. I had a two stroke 30 hp Tohatsu for twelve years(no hour meter) that was trouble free.


----------



## sjrobin

devrep said:


> the discussion these guys are having about the chittum boats is focusing on the Nth degree of improvements to this type of boat. things you and I will never miss. my dad caught more and bigger fish out of a 14 ft Feathercraft aluminum skiff built in 1955 than I ever will in my hells bay.


Agreed. I have hunted fish along all the GOM and my comments are specific to the windy, shallow, mostly low vis Texas coast. The best skiff just allows more days in an already very limited number to hunt fish shallow.


----------



## CKEAT

I am 


BPancamo said:


> I will be interested to hear your performance with the Tohatsu 60. I run a 2012 HB Pro with the Yamaha F70. I love the skiff; it does most everything I want....perfect, no... but it is about as versatile a skiff as I’ve been on. That Tohatsu with the 15” shaft has me interested, and as mentioned earlier in this thread, you could probably get by with a much shorter poling platform, which would be nice.


running a 12 pro too and when I got it, it was not ready for Texas waters even with a jack plate. Plate mount needed to come up to top mount hole as well as the motor to the plate. Also replaced prop and water pick up screens and added a cav plate. Way better now.


----------



## MariettaMike

loganlogan said:


> I've only waded and kayaked out in the mosquito lagoon/Indian River. What do you mean, when you say this area doesn't need the latest and greatest?


It’s not really shallow, typically not much wind, and without a tide there really isn’t any current to pole against.

Plus the biggest fish are being caught around the inlets and along the beach from bay boats. Jus Say’n.


----------



## redchaser

DBStoots said:


> Anybody looked at these?


Interesting flats boat but a different class of boat than the HB Pro, Chitt etc. doesn’t look like something I would want to pole all day.


----------



## DBStoots

y


redchaser said:


> Interesting flats boat but a different class of boat than the HB Pro, Chitt etc. doesn’t look like something I would want to pole all day.


yes, more like a Maverick Master Angler


----------



## Stevie

devrep said:


> the discussion these guys are having about the chittum boats is focusing on the Nth degree of improvements to this type of boat. things you and I will never miss. my dad caught more and bigger fish out of a 14 ft Feathercraft aluminum skiff built in 1955 than I ever will in my hells bay.


Agree the best boat for the OP is a quality used skiff as a starter. 

Regarding the Nth degree of capability.... Wish it weren’t necessary to go there. Wish we could still catch so many fish from a Feathercraft 14. 

Found myself pushing that Nth degree on the LM1 and LM2 in TX. Examples are: various trips with @sjrobin, in which we criss-crossed sandbars on shorelines to catch reds from troughs on either side. One trip to the 9 mile hole where we jumped up in 7-8” sand bottom... Recall several times poling a flat in POC over the tops of oysters on a falling tide, then jumping up in a very small deep spot to get out of that area... There were many tidal lakes we could access only jumping over an extremely skinny bar.

Here in Biscayne Bay the crossings so often involve 2 foot chop, sometimes 3 foot... so would only run a 12 degree. But there are bonefish flats where we find tailing fish and test the 7” draft almost weekly.


----------



## sotilloa1078

Stevie said:


> Agree the best boat for the OP is a quality used skiff as a starter.
> 
> Regarding the Nth degree of capability.... Wish it weren’t necessary to go there. Wish we could still catch so many fish from a Feathercraft 14.
> 
> Found myself pushing that Nth degree on the LM1 and LM2 in TX. Examples are: various trips with @sjrobin, in which we criss-crossed sandbars on shorelines to catch reds from troughs on either side. One trip to the 9 mile hole where we jumped up in 7-8” sand bottom... Recall several times poling a flat in POC over the tops of oysters on a falling tide, then jumping up in a very small deep spot to get out of that area... There were many tidal lakes we could access only jumping over an extremely skinny bar.
> 
> Here in Biscayne Bay the crossings so often involve 2 foot chop, sometimes 3 foot... so would only run a 12 degree. But there are bonefish flats where we find tailing fish and test the 7” draft almost weekly.



The draft of my 12 degree is unbelievable! I fish in places now that I haven’t fished since I had my professional! And the Biscayne Bay crossings are nice and comfortable. Win, win.


----------



## sjrobin

Stevie said:


> Agree the best boat for the OP is a quality used skiff as a starter.
> 
> Regarding the Nth degree of capability.... Wish it weren’t necessary to go there. Wish we could still catch so many fish from a Feathercraft 14.
> 
> Found myself pushing that Nth degree on the LM1 and LM2 in TX. Examples are: various trips with @sjrobin, in which we criss-crossed sandbars on shorelines to catch reds from troughs on either side. One trip to the 9 mile hole where we jumped up in 7-8” sand bottom... Recall several times poling a flat in POC over the tops of oysters on a falling tide, then jumping up in a very small deep spot to get out of that area... There were many tidal lakes we could access only jumping over an extremely skinny bar.
> 
> Here in Biscayne Bay the crossings so often involve 2 foot chop, sometimes 3 foot... so would only run a 12 degree. But there are bonefish flats where we find tailing fish and test the 7” draft almost weekly.


Good times for sure.


----------



## Matts

Stevie said:


> Agree the best boat for the OP is a quality used skiff as a starter.
> 
> Regarding the Nth degree of capability.... Wish it weren’t necessary to go there. Wish we could still catch so many fish from a Feathercraft 14.
> 
> Found myself pushing that Nth degree on the LM1 and LM2 in TX. Examples are: various trips with @sjrobin, in which we criss-crossed sandbars on shorelines to catch reds from troughs on either side. One trip to the 9 mile hole where we jumped up in 7-8” sand bottom... Recall several times poling a flat in POC over the tops of oysters on a falling tide, then jumping up in a very small deep spot to get out of that area... There were many tidal lakes we could access only jumping over an extremely skinny bar.
> 
> Yeah, that's the well-stated necessity of a good poling skiff that can do what we need here in TX. Your statements about the LM1 and LM2 are spot on and I truly appreciate you getting the LM2 broken in and some trails mapped for me
> All the best,


----------



## bradass198

Moe said:


> Cayo makes a nice skiff too. I visited there factory and definitely considered them but found the heron to be a better hull design for me. A bit wider and roomier than the cayo 17. I’m out on Biscayne bay most times so having a bit wider beam helps.


Yea the Cayo 170 isn’t a good Biscayne boat I was referring to the 180 and 180MV.


----------



## B_ONE

MariettaMike said:


> Considering where the OP lives I don’t see him needing the latest and greatest in technical poling skiffs.
> 
> Buying a good used boat is the best first step any newcomer to the sport should take.
> 
> Considering Hell’s Bay skiffs have a proven track record for holding resale value I wouldn’t hesitate on buying one.
> 
> I think there are a couple side console Watermans for sale under $40k that would be an awesome first skiff for the Titusville area.
> 
> Especially that green one that was built for Flip.


This all day. 

I learned a long time ago (but prob still too late) that buying quality saves in the long run. 

Chittum doesn't do it for me personally. Their innovation will improve the entire skiff industry, including Hell's Bay boats (eventually). 

I love my Marquesa and wouldn't trade it for anything. Just had her in the Bay against a stiff chop and she rode like a magic carpet ride. I personally think the weight helps and I'm not sure going lighter would be a good idea. I did go lean on my build - lithium batteries, etc. Poles great and drafts shallow enough for my purposes. 

Life is short, buy the best and buy it once. I spent too long trading up on skiffs and would have saved in the long run if I had just bought a HB day one.


----------



## Matts

My Chittum is super light and has a sports car like ride. No complaints.


----------



## commtrd

Marquesa and Laguna Madre 2 are totally apples and oranges type comparison. The Chittum LM2 in full carbon will likely weigh in at around 800 lbs less, hull only. Marquesa deadrise is around 12*? LM2 deadrise is 2*, again two very different intended hull applications. A much better comparison would likely be the new 21' full carbon or at least the existing 18' Islamorada in full carbon 12* deadrise to the Marquesa. Just my personal opinion, and know what they say about opinion, is I would take that new 21' Chittum in full carbon every day of the week over a Marquesa, and twice on Sunday. Of course the new 21 will likely cost almost twice as much as a Marquesa, so there's that...


----------



## EdK13

commtrd said:


> Marquesa and Laguna Madre 2 are totally apples and oranges type comparison. The Chittum LM2 in full carbon will likely weigh in at around 800 lbs less, hull only. Marquesa deadrise is around 12*? LM2 deadrise is 2*, again two very different intended hull applications. A much better comparison would likely be the new 21' full carbon or at least the existing 18' Islamorada in full carbon 12* deadrise to the Marquesa. Just my personal opinion, and know what they say about opinion, is I would take that new 21' Chittum in full carbon every day of the week over a Marquesa, and twice on Sunday. Of course the new 21 will likely cost almost twice as much as a Marquesa, so there's that...


HAHA. A year or two (MAX) from now is going to be so fn funny.


----------



## Matts

commtrd said:


> Marquesa and Laguna Madre 2 are totally apples and oranges type comparison. The Chittum LM2 in full carbon will likely weigh in at around 800 lbs less, hull only. Marquesa deadrise is around 12*? LM2 deadrise is 2*, again two very different intended hull applications. A much better comparison would likely be the new 21' full carbon or at least the existing 18' Islamorada in full carbon 12* deadrise to the Marquesa. Just my personal opinion, and know what they say about opinion, is I would take that new 21' Chittum in full carbon every day of the week over a Marquesa, and twice on Sunday. Of course the new 21 will likely cost almost twice as much as a Marquesa, so there's that...


Real world, I bet the Marquesa hull alone is over 700-800 pounds, despite what the website says. Like Keith said, apples to oranges. Marquesa is a great big water tarpon skiff but can’t even come close to what I can do as to shallow draft/hole shot with my Chittum. As to previous discussion, I can jump my non tunnel up in 7-9” over hard sand, easily. I have come to believe tunnels are not all that important. I know a famous skiff designer that said, “tunnels are the greatest scam ever perpetuated in boating world.” Don’t know if that is true or not but I don’t miss My tunnel. When Keith gets his new LM 2 in tunnel, we will go test them side by side down south if Corpus and maybe I’ll be proven wrong.


----------



## B_ONE

I think it’s interesting that every thread on HB these days turns into a Chittum discussion. To each their own but I think it is a sign that HB is the gold standard in this field that the same chittum folks feel the need to chime in ad nauseam. 

What evidence do you have that HB is lying about their skiff weight?


Matts said:


> Real world, I bet the Marquesa hull alone is over 700-800 pounds, despite what the website says. Like Keith said, apples to oranges. Marquesa is a great big water tarpon skiff but can’t even come close to what I can do as to shallow draft/hole shot with my Chittum. As to previous discussion, I can jump my non tunnel up in 7-9” over hard sand, easily. I have come to believe tunnels are not all that important. I know a famous skiff designer that said, “tunnels are the greatest scam ever perpetuated in boating world.” Don’t know if that is true or not but I don’t miss My tunnel. When Keith gets his new LM 2 in tunnel, we will go test them side by side down south if Corpus and maybe I’ll be proven wrong.


----------



## JC Designs

Here, I’ll mix it up a little!




Hole shot, check
Stable, check
Handles a little chop, check
Draft <6”, check
18’ skiff with 71” beam that scoots along with a 25 4stroke, check
Doesn’t cost $60,000... yet, check! Look out, I’m comin’ for ya’s!


----------



## sotilloa1078

B_ONE said:


> I think it’s interesting that every thread on HB these days turns into a Chittum discussion. To each their own but I think it is a sign that HB is the gold standard in this field that the same chittum folks feel the need to chime in ad nauseam.
> 
> What evidence do you have that HB is lying about their skiff weight?


I think it’s mainly because most of the people that are looking into HB also consider the Chittum. So naturally it comes up in the discussion. 

I’m not sure about what evidence other people have but every Marquesa I’ve ever pushed with an array or power pushing them. The heaviest having a 175 on the back and the lightest a 90. They all felt heavier than stated weight for sure. 

but to be fair I expect the Marquesa to be heavy. It’s just the nature of that boat.


----------



## commtrd

B_ONE said:


> I think it’s interesting that every thread on HB these days turns into a Chittum discussion. To each their own but I think it is a sign that HB is the gold standard in this field that the same chittum folks feel the need to chime in ad nauseam.
> 
> What evidence do you have that HB is lying about their skiff weight?


I think you might be a HB fanboy. Which is perfectly fine. HB makes a fine boat. Just that at that level, there are some valid alternatives so naturally comparisons are drawn because that is the point of these discussions yes? HB gold standard? Yeah we are gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. There are a few really great boat manufacturers today. My HB Professional really was not capable of doing what the LM2 will do, IMHO. Saying that, it was a beautiful boat, and it was also a tragic mistake selling it. It was definitely porky though. Night and day difference poling that boat vs a full-carbon lightweight skiff. Live and learn...


----------



## JC Designs

Well my X-Caliber plug lasted a solid day!


----------



## JC Designs

How bout’ that Glasser GTX? What’s ya’ll’s thoughts on it?


----------



## sotilloa1078

JC Designs said:


> How bout’ that Glasser GTX? What’s ya’ll’s thoughts on it?


I like the looks of it. Is it 12’ also?


----------



## Stevie

B_ONE said:


> I think it’s interesting that every thread on HB these days turns into a Chittum discussion. To each their own but I think it is a sign that HB is the gold standard in this field that the same chittum folks feel the need to chime in ad nauseam.
> 
> What evidence do you have that HB is lying about their skiff weight?


This has been a pretty factual, practical thread. The title may say Hell’s Bay, but the OP asked questions about the whole field of manufacturers from the outset. Actually, there’s really very little information and understanding about Chittums. There’s only one Chittum build thread to my knowledge.


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## Matts

Stevie said:


> This has been a pretty factual, practical thread. The title may say Hell’s Bay, but the OP asked questions about the whole field of manufacturers from the outset. Actually, there’s really very little information and understanding about Chittums. There’s only one Chittum build thread to my knowledge.


Next to Hal, George and Stephen, I’m pretty sure Stevie is the next most knowledgeable guy in regards to Chittums. I’d read any review he started


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## devrep

this chest thumping match is kinda stupid. so for almost twice the cost you get the Nth degree. In offshore boats when you double the cost you get another world. if you have that kind of disposable income I get it.


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## EdK13

Could it be


Matts said:


> Next to Hal, George and Stephen, I’m pretty sure Stevie is the next most knowledgeable guy in regards to Chittums. I’d read any review he started


There for awhile he accounted for a good chunk of their volume... AND. Its ok to like multiple brands.


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## Matts

devrep said:


> this chest thumping match is kinda stupid. so for almost twice the cost you get the Nth degree. In offshore boats when you double the cost you get another world. if you have that kind of disposable income I get it.


I think we have some good real world experience in this thread. Chittum and HB are about the same price. I love HB too and if had cash lying around, might own both. As Stevie once said, it’s More like a continuum than a competition. I don’t own a Chittum because I want to bump chests..... I own one as it’s simply the most well suited for my fishing. I’ve only had to get out to push it once and I’m pretty sure that I was sub-4” water.


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## BrownDog

At a certain point you have to realize a boat won’t catch the fish for you.


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## permitchaser

devrep said:


> I wonder how many old people living on dog food had those same thoughts?


Dog food is expensive


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## Stevie

devrep said:


> this chest thumping match is kinda stupid. so for almost twice the cost you get the Nth degree. In offshore boats when you double the cost you get another world. if you have that kind of disposable income I get it.


Agree on the stupidity of chest thumping...

Disagree on the Nth degree and double the cost...

Being a keyboard jockey will not catch **any of us** fish...


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## devrep

ok wonderboat warrior.


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## commtrd

Ha! Exactly right... dog food (at least quality dog food) is expensive. Really dont think there's much egotism going on in this thread. Pretty relaxed and respectful overall, which is the way it should be.


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## jsnipes

Yea, this thread is great. Don’t ruin it!


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## Stevie

jsnipes said:


> Yea, this thread is great. Don’t ruin it!


Great to hear from you John!!! Total thread de-rail:

- What’s your favorite permit fly?? 

- What’s the best presentation? Long slide strip? Fast strip, ever? Keep the fly in the water column or let it sink? PM if you prefer....


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## Matts

BrownDog said:


> At a certain point you have to realize a boat won’t catch the fish for you.


True, but some boats get you closer to the fish prior to being detected

All skiffs matter


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## JC Designs

JC Designs said:


> Here, I’ll mix it up a little!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hole shot, check
> Stable, check
> Handles a little chop, check
> Draft <6”, check
> 18’ skiff with 71” beam that scoots along with a 25 4stroke, check
> Doesn’t cost $60,000... yet, check! Look out, I’m comin’ for ya’s!





Matts said:


> True, but some boats get you closer to the fish prior to being detected
> 
> All skiffs matter


Exactly!


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