# Tarpon Rigging Question



## BigEasy (Dec 17, 2016)

Hey guys, I am going after tarpon with a fly rod for the first time at the end of the month. Of course my head is swimming in details and I have most sorted.

I ran across a Flip Pallot video where he talked about cutting off the factory fly line loops and snelling the leader to the line like the old days before welded loops. So my question for you guys with experience and first hand knowledge is; is that a necessary step and if so should the backing loop also be eliminated. Of course the next question is if the loops are to be eliminated is a snell knot or nail knot the way to go. For reference we are going to Costa Rica and the outfitter indicates that 100+ pound fish are not uncommon.

Thanks


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## Water Bound (Dec 12, 2018)

There is a video Andy Mill, Mill House podcast on YouTube, did showing an Albright method. That’s the one I use


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## backbone (Jan 4, 2016)

The angling company has a bunch of rigging videos on there website.


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## UpStateAngler (Sep 2, 2021)

2nd on The Angling Company knot/rigging videos. Nate does a great job of explaining why they rig the way they do.


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## georgiadrifter (Jan 14, 2009)

I usually snip off the loop of a new fly line and nail knot a butt section of fluorocarbon to the line. You want to transition from fly line to leader butt with a similar diameter butt section. I typically build my leader from there. There’s a “sticky” at the beginning of this forum regarding tarpon leaders.


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## scissorhands (Apr 8, 2012)

BigEasy said:


> Hey guys, I am going after tarpon with a fly rod for the first time at the end of the month. Of course my head is swimming in details and I have most sorted.
> 
> I ran across a Flip Pallot video where he talked about cutting off the factory fly line loops and snelling the leader to the line like the old days before welded loops. So my question for you guys with experience and first hand knowledge is; is that a necessary step and if so should the backing loop also be eliminated. Of course the next question is if the loops are to be eliminated is a snell knot or nail knot the way to go. For reference we are going to Costa Rica and the outfitter indicates that 100+ pound fish are not uncommon.
> 
> Thanks


I think its a necessary step to remove the front loop, but think its ok to leave the back loop. Main reason to remove the front loop is for fighting the fish up close and not having the big loop to loop connection.


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## R-Dub (May 15, 2018)

What I got out of flip pallots video, he was cutting off the front welded loop as to minimize hinging or concentrated weight issues in that particular spot. The back loop or running line loop, I’d recommend leaving it so you can switch out lines. Paired with a large Bimini loop you can switch out lines without having to nail knot it each time.


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## BigEasy (Dec 17, 2016)

georgiadrifter said:


> I usually snip off the loop of a new fly line and nail knot a butt section of fluorocarbon to the line. You want to transition from fly line to leader butt with a similar diameter butt section. I typically build my leader from there. There’s a “sticky” at the beginning of this forum regarding tarpon leaders.


Thanks for the sticky reference. I’ve been through that a few times and boy is there some great information in there. So much that it confused the heck out of me After being overwhelmed there for a while I decided on a pretty basic set up using knots that I’ve used to gear fish for tarpon.



Water Bound said:


> There is a video Andy Mill, Mill House podcast on YouTube, did showing an Albright method. That’s the one I use


I was unable to locate that one, you wouldn’t happen to have a link by chance?

Thanks for the help guys.


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## Water Bound (Dec 12, 2018)

Not sure if this link will work but it’s on their IG account. The Angling Company also has a good video showing a nail knot with an overhand to keep the coating from stripping off. I like the Albright version Andy shows. 









Mill House Podcast on Instagram: "Many people have asked for a video talking about what knot we tie off the end of our fly line to connect the butt section of leader. Some might have a better knot or a simpler way to tie this Albright knot but this is what works for us. . . . #flyfishing #leader #albright #flyline #tarpononfly #tarponfishing #IGFA #fishingknots"


Mill House Podcast shared a post on Instagram: "Many people have asked for a video talking about what knot we tie off the end of our fly line to connect the butt section of leader. Some might have a better knot or a simpler way to tie this Albright knot but this is what works for us. . . ...




www.instagram.com







BigEasy said:


> Thanks for the sticky reference. I’ve been through that a few times and boy is there some great information in there. So much that it confused the heck out of me After being overwhelmed there for a while I decided on a pretty basic set up using knots that I’ve used to gear fish for tarpon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BigEasy (Dec 17, 2016)

Thanks for that the link worked fine. I see the attraction to that knot, the taper is pretty cool.

I just am not sure how it could possibly hold/work when he cut the tags with $0.75 fingernail clippers and didn’t use $250.00 Abel nippers😲😎😂


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I use nail clippers there so cheap when they rust out, usually 2 years, I just get another at Dollar General
As far as your Tarpon leader, nail knot butt section or double nail knot. Blood knot the sections of your leader then use a Slim Beauty knot to attach the bite, non slip loop knot, 3 turns, for your fly. Keep the loop to loop fly line to backing. Alernately you can bimini loop your class tippet and loop it to your leader. You need to be able to tie all those knots on a boat. Now if you don't want to tie up leaders, before you go buy pre made


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

I'll take an alternative approach and tell you not to cut that loop unless your real comfortable making a new connection up there before your trip. 

Just test that front loop and make sure its secure. I've never had that front loop fail on a fish but I've had that Albright fail more than once.


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## Poontangler (Jul 13, 2017)

Capt. Mel Simpson’s Tube Knot is an absolute beast for tarpon, but really a tougher one to tie and get right, and not necessary for anything under that. But really like that one and it’s genius. The knots I use for anything else and if I get lazy is the angling company nail knot/half hitch sinched down in steps, and don’t bother peeling the coating, it’s good enough and strong as hell, slides in and out of the tip for up close battle very well. Here’s the video I helped make many years ago for Capt. Mel’s knot.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

Leave the loops.
Practice casting.


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## Geologist (Nov 20, 2020)

If it's a new line a loop to loop is fine as the leader pinches well into the fly line loop, so no hinging. If it's an old line they may not pinch together well enough and end up hinging, cut the old loop off the fly line.


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## Nway93 (May 9, 2016)

Factory loops these days are normally fine. I still cut them off though and do an Albright then coat it in either pliobond or loon. But leave the loop for the backing and splice a loop on the micron rather than a Bimini. Make sure it’s catspawed to the loop though.

Mostly personal preference and what you have confidence in. I do think the loops hinge though.


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## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

Leave the loop and two nail knots on the welded part of the loop with 12-20lb mono and super glue them once finished. The line coating will fail before the loop.


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

Water Bound said:


> Not sure if this link will work but it’s on their IG account. The Angling Company also has a good video showing a nail knot with an overhand to keep the coating from stripping off. I like the Albright version Andy shows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Trying it for the first time. Can you check my work:


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## Drifter (Dec 13, 2018)

Jason M said:


> I'll take an alternative approach and tell you not to cut that loop unless your real comfortable making a new connection up there before your trip.
> 
> Just test that front loop and make sure its secure. I've never had that front loop fail on a fish but I've had that Albright fail more than once.


What he said. I would not remove the loop. The guys that normally do that catch tarpon like its their job. You throw a nail knot then a surgeons loop to a Bimini twist with a improved blood knot, your liable to lose your first big tarpon on a knot. I know cuz I did it a week ago.


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

Just to follow up. I retied and think the taper is better:


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## Water Bound (Dec 12, 2018)

@brokeoff looks good man! The key as I think you figured out based on your version 1 vs 2, is to push and keep the wraps that are over the fly line pushed down as far and tight as possible. Then getting the first of the forward wraps to overlap the loop of the fly line as you tighten down. This keeps the knot from creating a bulge of fly line when you tighten down.


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

Water Bound said:


> @brokeoff looks good man! The key as I think you figured out based on your version 1 vs 2, is to push and keep the wraps that are over the fly line pushed down as far and tight as possible. Then getting the first of the forward wraps to overlap the loop of the fly line as you tighten down. This keeps the knot from creating a bulge of fly line when you tighten down.


Yup, after a few times I figured out when I had opportunities to tighten it all up. In the beginning by pulling the fly line through a bit more, and towards the end by shifting all wraps closer to the center.

Thanks.


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## bugslinger (Jun 4, 2012)

Second here for the Andy Mill Albright method.


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## BigEasy (Dec 17, 2016)

bugslinger said:


> Second here for the Andy Mill Albright method.


I like the theory, and the knot looks great.

My personal hesitation is I’ve had Albright knot fail when attaching braid main line to fluorocarbon leader. I’m sure those failures were operator error.

I would be nervous as a whore in church stepping it like that on my first tarpon fly trip😬 because of my previous failures with the Albright.

Keep the ideas coming guys, I really appreciate the input. Even though there are all angles to come at this question, it’s like the leader sticky; it helps me (and hopefully others down the road) determine comfort level based on options.


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

Water Bound said:


> @brokeoff looks good man! The key as I think you figured out based on your version 1 vs 2, is to push and keep the wraps that are over the fly line pushed down as far and tight as possible. Then getting the first of the forward wraps to overlap the loop of the fly line as you tighten down. This keeps the knot from creating a bulge of fly line when you tighten down.


Also, can you explain why Andy Mill suggests the Bimini in the class to the 40# butt and on the other side an improved blood to the bite? Why wouldn't there be improved blood knots on both side?


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## kjnengr (Jan 16, 2018)

brokeoff said:


> Also, can you explain why Andy Mill suggests the Bimini in the class to the 40# butt and on the other side an improved blood to the bite? Why wouldn't there be improved blood knots on both side?


My only guess is that the Bimini knot offers some stretch/shock absorption. Both the Bimini and the improved blood use doubled up/two strands of line to transition from the smaller class line to thicker butt/bite section.


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

The Bimini with the furl provides some shock absorption and you don't lose your leader length every time you retie.


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## kjnengr (Jan 16, 2018)

If you’re going to go loop to loop on the backing to fly line connection, make sure to either do a double loop or run the loop through multiple times like below to have as many contact points on the fly line as possible.


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## bugslinger (Jun 4, 2012)

I hear ya. However Andy won the gold cup with Rob fordyce using this method. The beauty of the Albright on the fly line is that it seats into the fly line coating. Preventing slip.


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## fatman (Nov 23, 2012)

bugslinger said:


> Second here for the Andy Mill Albright method.


if I'm not mistaken, Andy credited Matt Huntsinger from Florida Keys Outfitters with devising this style of Albright. Matt rigged a lot of reels and tied a LOT of IFGA leaders over the years....


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## Fliesbynight (Mar 23, 2020)

So, I have never caught a big tarpon on the fly but the fly line to backing connection I use has never failed despite the best efforts of the local cow stripers.

I thread a sewing needle with the backing and push it up through the core of the fly line. 1/2" is good but 3/8" will do. Push the needle through the coating and pull about 2' of backing out. Make a loop about 3/4" away from the exit point. At the exit point pass the tag end of the backing under the standing leg of the loop to anchor the loop and wraps. Make successive wraps from the exit point towards the loop and feed the tag end through the original loop. 1/4" to 3/8" is all you need. Tighten the knot by pulling on the running part of the backing while pinching the wraps. As it pulls tight, gently roll the wraps in your fingers to seat them. I usually apply a coating of SHHAN, just for principle. Actually doing it it simpler than it writes and warming the fly line up by soaking it in the hottest water you can get from your tap makes pushing the needle through a lot easier.

Because the backing goes through the center of the fly line, this knot won't hang in the guides or tip top no matter how much pressure you apply. The picture shows 30 lb braided Dacron into 8wt floating and sinking line. The coating on the sinking line was harder to do but as long as you have fly line showing below the wraps, this will not slip.


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## spc7669 (Apr 15, 2015)

Fliesbynight said:


> So, I have never caught a big tarpon on the fly but the fly line to backing connection I use has never failed despite the best efforts of the local cow stripers.
> 
> I thread a sewing needle with the backing and push it up through the core of the fly line. 1/2" is good but 3/8" will do. Push the needle through the coating and pull about 2' of backing out. Make a loop about 3/4" away from the exit point. At the exit point pass the tag end of the backing under the standing leg of the loop to anchor the loop and wraps. Make successive wraps from the exit point towards the loop and feed the tag end through the original loop. 1/4" to 3/8" is all you need. Tighten the knot by pulling on the running part of the backing while pinching the wraps. As it pulls tight, gently roll the wraps in your fingers to seat them. I usually apply a coating of SHHAN, just for principle. Actually doing it it simpler than it writes and warming the fly line up by soaking it in the hottest water you can get from your tap makes pushing the needle through a lot easier.
> 
> ...


I dig it. I do mono to hollowcore splices much the same way. Never thought about doing it with flyline.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

I do that with a nail knot and think I posted a picture of a leader I do the same way.
Doing it with a leader is hard to do with a mono butt section over 20# tho...


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## Newman (Jan 22, 2018)

brokeoff said:


> Also, can you explain why Andy Mill suggests the Bimini in the class to the 40# butt and on the other side an improved blood to the bite? Why wouldn't there be improved blood knots on both side?


Can’t speak for Andy Mill, but 
I having class tippet failure at butt end, improved blood knot would come back totally intact but lacking rest of class/bite/fly.
It wasn’t happening often, maybe 1/20 fish, but enough to make my think, and pay very close attention for a burr, or heated spot in class from tightening knot (never found one)..
Then I watched a mostly tired fish thrashing around boat side and noticed that particular knot get “chocked” between scales in front of dorsal, fish shook it head and pop..
Have been putting biminis in that end ever since with no issues.
Not sure if the Bimini slides between scales easier, or the short doubled section withstands the force better, but problem went away..


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## Geologist (Nov 20, 2020)

Newman said:


> Can’t speak for Andy Mill, but
> I having class tippet failure at butt end, improved blood knot would come back totally intact but lacking rest of class/bite/fly.
> It wasn’t happening often, maybe 1/20 fish, but enough to make my think, and pay very close attention for a burr, or heated spot in class from tightening knot (never found one)..
> Then I watched a mostly tired fish thrashing around boat side and noticed that particular knot get “chocked” between scales in front of dorsal, fish shook it head and pop..
> ...


Bimini itself is the shock absorber, energy doesn't transfer as easily through the knot to the class. If you're not worried about fish seeing the bimini, you can put them on both sides of the class for maximum protection.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

mro said:


> leader I do the same way.


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## bugslinger (Jun 4, 2012)

fatman said:


> if I'm not mistaken, Andy credited Matt Huntsinger from Florida Keys Outfitters with devising this style of Albright. Matt rigged a lot of reels and tied a LOT of IFGA leaders over the years....


I think that’s correct.


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

My understanding of why a bimini goes on the butt end of the class and an improved blood goes on the bite end is the design incorporates a shock absorber by adding the bimini and maintains a smaller more stealthy connection with the improved blood. Both connections are strong. Tying my leaders this way I've only had one failure that wasn't in the class and that was a bad fly knot.


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## Water Bound (Dec 12, 2018)

I just want to know who ties a Cobranagle!


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## jddonnelly264 (Feb 14, 2020)

First and foremost test. Get a accurate scale. Rear loop is fine tie a Bimini with a large loop in your backing. Double the big loop and tie a surgeon knot. A double loop in backing is less likely to fail byy cutting through the welded loop.

for the front loop test to see if your getting a hinge effect. I just purchased 22 lb fluorocarbon furled tapered leaders . I will practice cast the flys I generally throw. If it performs I will leave it be. If I have turn over problems I may cut and nail knot in place.


what’s more important than if your using a loop to loop connection is properly matching a line wt and taper to the rod.

as a example let’s say you are throwing a 10 wt get a 10 wt tropical line mark from the front loop 50 feet 60 feet 70 feet 80 feet 90 feet. Then practice casting.

speak to your guide and ask what is the average distance your likely to throw. Pratice with the wind blowing from your off shoulder. A tail wind will add distance. You can’t always count on a tail wind.

You want to match the line that allows you to pick up the belly section of the line make a back cast and present the fly . You need to know what you can reach with out a false cast, what you can reach with one false cast and a double hull. Your only measuring to the front loop your actual reach will add the length of the leader. The distance mark will be just off the reel. The move up one line weight of the same taper and manufactur!!!! Then test again. Your goal is to determine the combo that gives you the most consistent performance with least effort.

my experience is short belly lines work best if you move up one level if using a fast rod. They won’t give you the longest distance because you can’t carry as much line in the air. They work best when you throwing into the wind, big flys and have a very short period of time to present.

You should also match a longer belly line for days when the added reach of false cast and double hauls are of benifit. 

same rod two different lines and possibly line weights depending on your needs for that day.

Since you bought a scale test your tippet for strength. I had rotten tippet cost me 20 bonefish on my first trip to Belize. 10 lb was breaking at 2.

Learn to strip strike. Get back 70 feet and see if you can break your tippet tied to a post eye. With just a hand strip. Then learn to reach forward with the rod and strike with both the rod and a hand strip. Make sure your using the butt of the rod. Use your scale to see how many lbs you can produce.

When I went to Belize I praticed my strip strike for a month. The guide was convinced I was hitting to hard. It wasn’t until I tied up tarpon leaders and tested the knots with my scale. I decided to check the breaking stength of my bonefish leader. I found some blue mono that was marke 12 but broke at 10. I landed the next 8 fish.

when I watch a tarpon eat my fly and struck. I saw his head recoil to the side as if I hit him with a right cross. I hit him 3 more times. Just as I got the boga grip on him the fly feel out. The cheap hook did not have sufficient temper to hold up and curled back at the tip. I was lucky to land that first tarpon and did so only because put the work in.


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

So I think I rigged a whole leader per Mill’s recipe. One question I had tonight was how long the furled section should be between the Bimini and the blood? Also, is there a right way to furl it?


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## Geologist (Nov 20, 2020)

Water Bound said:


> I just want to know who ties a Cobranagle!


I'm going to give it a shot this season. Double Cobranagle, each side of the class.


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## Dpreston (Oct 16, 2015)

16 turn nail knot to butt with end of fly line coating stripped and figure 8 lock on the leader side (credit to Dave Olson)

Cobranagle to bite, double line/Bimini blood-knotted to butt (credit to Nathaniel)

No need for double cobras, the Bimini/doubled blood is 100%


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Read through most of this thread (some of the technical stuff I glossed over - getting older is not much fun at all...). I did note one glaring mis-conception that some genius a few years back stated like it was gospel... and that is the whole proposition that you tie up a Bimini Twist because it acts like a shock absorber... Horse manure... 

A Bimini Twist is rope making technique pure and simple - it's great advantage is that, done properly, it's just as strong as the line itself - and not a weak spot the way many knots actually are... So, you take whatever line you're using, say 20lb mono and do up a Bimini to double the line, resulting in a breaking strength of 40 lb for the doubled portion - then the doubled portion when connected to the next line size up (in my case that would be an 80lb fluoro bite tippet, something we can get away with in the darker waters of the 'glades )- and the entire setup is still that 20lb mono in strength (I prefer Hard Mason nylon for my tarpon tippets..). This allows you to go to the very edge of the tippet's strength at very close quarters - where the slightest weakness in a leader system will cost you dearly...

For heavy fly leaders (all done to IGFA specs - learned the hard way - my first order for a shop was 100 of them back when everyone used much heavier leaders, that was 1979...). I start with about five or six feet of tippet (in whatever size, 12lb, 16lb, 20lb...) and tie up a Bimini at each end, looking for at least a 20" clean tippet to exceed IGFA specs - then it's a doubled surgeon's loop on one end (for a quick change loop to loop connection with a heavy butt section that on a 12 wt line will be six feet of 60lb mono...). On the other end that Bimini will be connected to the size bite tippet needed, 40lb, all the way up to 80lb fluoro, if desired, using a Hufnagle knot (once again the knot will join the doubled line to the bite tippet for max strength possible..). And so on. I did an article about this for Florida Sportsman, maybe 15 years ago now - and it had great close-ups of all the knots involved if it still exists out there in cyber land.. Here's a pic from that article.. 








this is the end that loops to the butt section, note the Bimini that allows you to tie a simple doubled surgeon's loop... will have to look a bit to find the other photos..

Something important to note... When I'm rigging rods (of any kind) for use on my skiff I always start with a Bimini Twist on each rod to double the end of the line in use before tying it to any leader - for max line strength. With any kind of mono or "flouro" line the Bimini starts with 20 turns.. if the line is braid I double the number of turns to 40 (braid will slip on you otherwise...) which only takes a moment longer once you've done it a few times... For me that's got to be many thousands of times - but I've been at it a lot of years...

Hope this helps...


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## Geologist (Nov 20, 2020)

lemaymiami said:


> Read through most of this thread (some of the technical stuff I glossed over - getting older is not much fun at all...). I did note one glaring mis-conception that some genius a few years back stated like it was gospel... and that is the whole proposition that you tie up a Bimini Twist because it acts like a shock absorber... Horse manure...
> 
> A Bimini Twist is rope making technique pure and simple - it's great advantage is that, done properly, it's just as strong as the line itself - and not a weak spot the way many knots actually are... So, you take whatever line you're using, say 20lb mono and do up a Bimini to double the line, resulting in a breaking strength of 40 lb for the doubled portion - then the doubled portion when connected to the next line size up (in my case that would be an 80lb fluoro bite tippet, something we can get away with in the darker waters of the 'glades )- and the entire setup is still that 20lb mono in strength (I prefer Hard Mason nylon for my tarpon tippets..). This allows you to go to the very edge of the tippet's strength at very close quarters - where the slightest weakness in a leader system will cost you dearly...
> 
> ...


You're correct the bimini is a rope building technique to maintain knot strength. The bimini is also a shock absorber - the twists allow for some stretch before the full force of the fish would be applied to the class tippet.


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## Tailer (Jan 10, 2017)

Dpreston said:


> 16 turn nail knot to butt with end of fly line coating stripped and figure 8 lock on the leader side (credit to Dave Olson)
> 
> Cobranagle to bite, double line/Bimini blood-knotted to butt (credit to Nathaniel)
> 
> No need for double cobras, the Bimini/doubled blood is 100%


An answer with the ultimate credentials!


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