# MINWR catch and release petition



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

If you fish here or plan to visit Mosquito Lagoon in the future please take a minute to sign this petition. 

With all of the water problems and habitat loss we have experienced this should be a no brainier.

https://www.change.org/p/layne-hami...e-refuge-catch-and-release-for-reds-and-trout


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Live within sound of outboards of the area. Can't do it. Don't believe in it. That fixes nothing. It will move pressure to the edges of the area. Which certainly holds fish from the lagoon or fish going to the lagoon. It's kind of like the plastic straw movement. No straws but we will serve you in a plastic cup and lid. Fixes nothing. But as fast disintegrating straw would. Someone feels better though. Go ahead Smackdaddy. Comment?


----------



## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

I am a catch and release guy 90% of the time myself...but it seems like the polluters should be punished rather than the anglers in that area?


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Could not agree more. I keep very little. Catch many. But it is not what it was. We don't fix problems. We try band aids.


----------



## Guest (Aug 20, 2018)

Sorry, can’t sign it! Most people keep only what they will eat that night if they keep any. I don’t keep all the fish I catch but wouldn’t want to throw one back because it was caught behind an invisible boundry if I did decide to keep one for dinner.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Capnredfish said:


> Live within sound of outboards of the area. Can't do it. Don't believe in it. That fixes nothing. It will move pressure to the edges of the area. Which certainly holds fish from the lagoon or fish going to the lagoon. It's kind of like the plastic straw movement. No straws but we will serve you in a plastic cup and lid. Fixes nothing. But as fast disintegrating straw would. Someone feels better though. Go ahead Smackdaddy. Comment?




The edges of what area exactly? Outside of the lagoon there is very little if any habitat left to pressure. The are only 2 access points in and out of the lagoon so when you talk about adding pressure on the fish going to the lagoon I'm scratching my head. The pressure will continue to be where there is viable habitat left.

I agree this is a bandaid but maybe a necessary one till the source of the problems can be addressed.
Do you have a better suggestion on protecting the resources we have left? If so I'm all ears. Would rather hear your suggestions than hear your negative connections to this idea and plastic straws.

If your resolution relies on the local government to agree on a unified solution and to fund it you have to realize the priority level locally. When AstroTurf fields in local parks are eating up millions from the 1cent tax that was supposed to be used on the IRL that should tell you all you need to know about the timeline of a real fix.

The mentality of the catch and fillet guys is that the system is some magical water with endless resources. When many of the inshore guides are behind this because of the drastic changes they are observing it's time to do something. At least they are recognizing they can fish themselves out of a job.


----------



## ZaneD (Feb 28, 2017)

I signed it. I realize it will not solve the larger issues facing the Lagoon, but as someone fishing there just trying to get a red or two to eat a fly, I fully support C&R because the more fish there the better. If I want something for dinner I'll stop at Hull's seafood on the way home for some tuna steaks.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

On a side note for those of you advocating for continued harvest. If you are eating fish from the local waters you may want to do some reading about what's in the water. Might as well be getting your drinking water from the toilet. That also might explain some things around here


----------



## Guest (Aug 20, 2018)

I fully support catch and release, just not a mandate stating I have to release just because it was caught behind the line in a public waterway!


----------



## Guest (Aug 20, 2018)

And for those that eat fish from foreign waters should do some reading of they’re own! Farm raised isn’t any better either so don’t try to feed me that line. Buying fish from a fish market... That’s sustainable right there!


----------



## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

el9surf said:


> The edges of what area exactly? Outside of the lagoon there is very little if any habitat left to pressure.


I believe he is referring to the outside edges of the Refuge Boundary. I am torn in what to think about it honestly as it could very well create more pressure in areas like oak hill, edgewater..etc that are in the Lagoon but outside of the Refuge. It could certainly just cause more people to break the law. Just like guides that run charters in the Refuge and are not licensed to do so. There is ZERO enforcement out there so it will only keep the honest fisherman from keeping fish and in my 35yrs I find less and less of those types of fisherman each year. I did sign it as I can not remember the last time I have kept a fish and certainly not one from the Lagoon. 

With that being said, I am happy to see MINWR get off their butt and do something, anything, that makes it look like they actually clock in every day. I have little faith anything will come of it or be enforced as in my experience with them, if they can not maintain a simple spreadsheet of permitted guides and keep it properly updated, how will they be able to manage this.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

nativejax said:


> I believe he is referring to the outside edges of the Refuge Boundary. I am torn in what to think about it honestly as it could very well create more pressure in areas like oak hill, edgewater..etc that are in the Lagoon but outside of the Refuge. It could certainly just cause more people to break the law. Just like guides that run charters in the Refuge and are not licensed to do so. There is ZERO enforcement out there so it will only keep the honest fisherman from keeping fish and in my 35yrs I find less and less of those types of fisherman each year. I did sign it as I can not remember the last time I have kept a fish and certainly not one from the Lagoon.
> 
> With that being said, I am happy to see MINWR get off their butt and do something, anything, that makes it look like they actually clock in every day. I have little faith anything will come of it or be enforced as in my experience with them, if they can not maintain a simple spreadsheet of permitted guides and keep it properly updated, how will they be able to manage this.


Good point, I usually just lump it all together even though there is a boundary line in the lagoon. It probably would increase pressure in the oak hill & edgewater areas. Enforcement would be difficult but if the majority of folks abided by it out of respect for a system that is obviously struggling it would be a start.


----------



## jlindsley (Nov 24, 2015)

Capnredfish said:


> Live within sound of outboards of the area. Can't do it. Don't believe in it. That fixes nothing. It will move pressure to the edges of the area. Which certainly holds fish from the lagoon or fish going to the lagoon. *It's kind of like the plastic straw movement. No straws but we will serve you in a plastic cup and lid*. Fixes nothing. But as fast disintegrating straw would. Someone feels better though. Go ahead Smackdaddy. Comment?


Agree.

All efforts should be focused on *habitat* in the lagoon systems. Yes public money is currently being misused but aside from people sharing and liking things on social media the involvement is very minimal.


----------



## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

jlindsley said:


> Agree.
> 
> All efforts should be focused on *habitat* in the lagoon systems. Yes public money is currently being misused but aside from people sharing and liking things on social media the involvement is very minimal.


"Like"


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

el9surf said:


> Good point, I usually just lump it all together even though there is a boundary line in the lagoon. It probably would increase pressure in the oak hill & edgewater areas. Enforcement would be difficult but if the majority of folks abided by it out of respect for a system that is obviously struggling it would be a start.


Exactly what I meant. It's like the battle of fisheries management on the Tex Mex border. Killing everything on one side is going to effect the other. The fish will just be clobbered in those bordering areas. What will happen is they will close more and more areas.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Capnredfish said:


> Exactly what I meant. It's like the battle of fisheries management on the Tex Mex border. Killing everything on one side is going to effect the other. The fish will just be clobbered in those bordering areas. What will happen is they will close more and more areas.



Makes sense. Unfortunately there is no perfect solution but we need people to recognize there is a problem that we are making worse by harvesting from a stressed area. Giving people a bag limit is basically giving them a goal to go and hit.
The idea of sharing sight fishing with my kids was something I was excited about. At this pace 5 years down the road isn't looking good.


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

That's why I no longer keep fish every trip. Never enough to freeze. Never enough for a fish fry party. Just one for the three of us when we want one. If we all did that I think it would be just fine. Oh I fish 50 percent of my day north of the boundry. I also do not trust what the management tells us and then we have the people who do studies and the constant funding and new studies that need to be done. Are there less fish in the area? Yes. Happened after hurricane Charley and the few that followed. Nature will correct for that part in time.


----------



## msmith719 (Oct 9, 2012)

Sorry. Not a chance of me signing this. You may be well intentioned but so was the Army Corps of Engineers when they destroyed the Kissimmee River, Lake Okeechobee and the Everglades. More gov't regs means "keep a close watch on your butt" cuz somebody is looking to screw you! Plus it never stops with just one new reg; pretty soon we'll have mandatory catch and release over the whole IR system, then.......


----------



## Gatorgrizz27 (Apr 4, 2015)

The problem, even if everyone was in agreement, is enforcement of it. Is it going to have one check station that you have to enter and exit through, and they will put stickers on any fish already in your cooler when you enter? Obviously being sarcastic, but there are guys that keep gator trout, snook out of season, etc. Changing a law won’t help much.

The other issue is if you effectively prevent people who want to eat a fish from fishing there, you’ve just alienated people that were on your side of wanting to protect it, and been involved citizens. Think a couple dozen fly guys are going to go up against Disney and development corporations?

You’re much better off educating and campaigning people to voluntarily catch and release. Teach them to eat mullet instead of reds.


----------



## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Be careful you might get what you wish for - forever.

If this passes I would be willing to bet it will never go away and will be permanently restricted even if the water is cleaned and restored.

How many manatee zones have been repealed since they are no longer considered endangered?


----------



## Guest (Aug 22, 2018)

FWC LE is stretched so thin that they could never enforce such a rule. Those that break the law and poach/over harvest, keep over/ under sized fish know this and will continue to do so! The only thing this will accomplish is stopping the average law abiding angler from being able to choose whether he/she wants local fresh caught fish from the fruits of they’re labor/ passion/ insanity or some crap from somewhere else in the world for dinner!


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Teaching people things and reducing the population are probably the only two factors that will make a difference and neither of those are really possible because people are generally ignorant and the population is only going to rise. This goes for everywhere.


----------



## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

DuckNut said:


> If this passes I would be willing to bet it will never go away and will be permanently restricted even if the water is cleaned and restored.


This. Absolutely.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Lots of folks don't want extra rules and laws and I can side with that, I'm typically one of those folks. The results of the current path we are on speak for themselves. Something has to change. The lagoon can't sustain water issues, habitat loss, fish kills, constant commercial and rec fishing pressure and continued harvest. The system is severely out of balance. Fish harvest is something easy to control.

They did it for snook after the freezes in 2010 and people abided by the laws enough to help. Same for red snapper. Everyone I know came back early with a boat full of pigs the past couple weeks.

Water issues knocking at the door. 8/21/18 at an impoundment connected to the banana river. That whole shore is dead fish.


----------



## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Red snapper isn't something I'd point to as a success story quite yet. You wouldn't believe the battle its taken to gain access to that fishery after it was closed to rec anglers and portioned off between commercial and charter outfits.

As far as snook...now you have to purchase an extra license add on in order to keep them. We have a 4" slot and a short season. And there are a TON of snook out there.

Nothing ever truly gets opened back up once the gov't closes it. 

I'm of the opinion that existing laws and legislation should be enforced before new rules go into place that will also not be enforced...


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

New laws only hurt the guy obeying the laws. Those that break laws, polute will continue. And those that should put the breaks on both won't.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

So the snook and red snapper are plentiful despite all the people that break the rules? Sounds like enough folks abide by the laws to make an impact. A $10 snook stamp isn't exactly a deal breaker for most folks. God knows what it goes to, but it's part of the game if you want to play.

What existing laws and legislation will fix this? Can those laws and legislation help fix issues in time without additional intervention? I personally don't think so


----------



## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

Sorry Eric, I would rather sign a one family-one child petition.

Humans ARE the root cause.

So many people have taken the blue pill that nature is like a novelty for getting likes, and building followers in social media.

I honestly couldn’t remember the last time I saw a bumble bee the other day when I took and posted this pic on IG.


----------



## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

Mike - plant the dwarf variety. 

https://almostedenplants.com/shopping/products/565-dwarf-pink-powder-puff-tree-dwarf-red-powderpuff/


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

el9surf said:


> So the snook and red snapper are plentiful despite all the people that break the rules? Sounds like enough folks abide by the laws to make an impact. A $10 snook stamp isn't exactly a deal breaker for most folks. God knows what it goes to, but it's part of the game if you want to play.
> 
> What existing laws and legislation will fix this? Can those laws and legislation help fix issues in time without additional intervention? I personally don't think so


Snook and redfish are plentiful. Some areas might see fewer. And it happened quickly after the back to back canes. Perhaps they pushed or flushed something into the system causing this quick decline. Maybe they stirred up a naturally occurring bacteria or toxin. I can only speak about my area. Mosquito lagoon. I don't have the answers. But I have beliefs. Starts here. Man has caused a lot of the issues. It's a naturally occurring issue that takes place outside of the lagoon history we are familiar with. It has been here a long time. We can never seem to pin point anything. We can continue to pay for studies because those people need work. They don't really want the cure found too quickly. So if we stop keeping fish in the lagoon and the numbers don't really improve what do we do next? Maybe fix the real problem? Oh the red snapper. I don't fish for them. I hear there are tons and have been.


----------



## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Teaching people things and reducing the population are probably the only two factors that will make a difference and neither of those are really possible because people are generally ignorant and the population is only going to rise. This goes for everywhere.


God loves stupid people...after all, he made so many of them.


----------



## msmith719 (Oct 9, 2012)

One more comment, then I'll back off. Go on Google Earth and look at the Oak Hill and surrounding area. See all those rec vehicle parks? The vast majority of those folks are out-of-state residents. They come here to catch fish and shrimp and haul them back to Maryland, Virginia, NJ, NY, etc, because they've fished out the Northeast and Chesapeake Bay. Some of the fisheries up there are coming back after having Draconian regs for decades now. But, even for fisheries that are back in good shape the regs don't go away! Look at the licensing requirements for VA, MD; is that your idea of helping Mosquito Lagoon? I used to shrimp on Eau Gallie Causeway before they built the new bridge. Every single night there were 4 families from MD with a truckload of traps. I talked to them often and they said they didn't bother fishing in MD because of regs, low limits, and ridiculous seasons. They admitted to having several freezers set up at their rec vehicle park and filling them with fish and shrimp to take back home. People like this are not going to think twice about violating your proposed "C/R Only" zones. What happened to our once huge clam fishery in the IR? The clammers from up north came down and decimated it in just a couple of years. My thoughts are that we need to push for cleanup dollars so the fish can come back on their own; stopping me from taking a fish home to eat is simply not going to solve the problem.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Well I guess we are doomed, we should accept that fact and not bother trying anything different. The proposed catch and release idea clearly won't help the fish numbers, it's already basically a proven fact. We have established that there are no ethical fiserman that follow rules and nobody is willing to concede their tasty redfish fillets for the betterment of the lagoon. Glad I brought this idea up for you guys to shit on, been a lot of fun. If you don't know the definition of insanity, well nevermind...

As for the cleanup dollars maybe they can somehow figure out how to filter the lagoon water with that nice green AstroTurf by 2028 . Peace out.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

el9surf said:


> Well I guess we are doomed, we should accept that fact and not bother trying anything different. The proposed catch and release idea clearly won't help the fish numbers, it's already basically a proven fact. We have established that there are no ethical fiserman that follow rules and nobody is willing to concede their tasty redfish fillets for the betterment of the lagoon. Glad I brought this idea up for you guys to shit on, been a lot of fun. If you don't know the definition of insanity, well nevermind...
> 
> As for the cleanup dollars maybe they can somehow figure out how to filter the lagoon water with that nice green AstroTurf by 2028 . Peace out.


This is exactly how I feel when I’m trying to explain why I think big trout should be released and the STAR trout division should be tagged trout instead of killing a bunch of 8+ pound trout in the name of conservation. 
People are scared to death to give up filleting fish to save them.


----------



## Guest (Aug 23, 2018)

I’ve got no problem releasing fish, I just don’t need another law telling me I have to is all.


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

I’m all for ending tournaments and relocating fish when released especially. How can you use a natural resource like these as a game? Fished one years ago. Never again.


----------



## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

el9surf said:


> We have established that there are no ethical fiserman that follow rules and nobody is willing to concede their tasty redfish fillets for the betterment of the lagoon.


Like I said...I'm pretty much a catch n release guy. Most fly anglers are, I think.

The biggest takers of game fish are the guides who take out Yankee tourists who wanna "catch a limit" and who ask "can I eat it, does it taste good" about every, single damn fish they catch. They keep, freeze, and then throw away more fish than locals or the people on this board ever will...IMHO.

I think we need more no motor zones than we do no take zones. NMZs reduce pressure while also protecting grass habitat...again, IMHO.


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

el9surf said:


> Well I guess we are doomed, we should accept that fact and not bother trying anything different. The proposed catch and release idea clearly won't help the fish numbers, it's already basically a proven fact. We have established that there are no ethical fiserman that follow rules and nobody is willing to concede their tasty redfish fillets for the betterment of the lagoon. Glad I brought this idea up for you guys to shit on, been a lot of fun. If you don't know the definition of insanity, well nevermind...
> 
> As for the cleanup dollars maybe they can somehow figure out how to filter the lagoon water with that nice green AstroTurf by 2028 . Peace out.


Maybe we are doomed. Hope not. Laws don’t fix anything it seems. We have so many laws and things don’t improve. The problem needs to be fixed. Exactly what is the problem? Me keeping one fish a month? No.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Boatbrains said:


> I’ve got no problem releasing fish, I just don’t need another law telling me I have to is all.


We are an elite few but in the grand scheme of things most people need regulating because they are ignorant and greedy.


----------



## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Capnredfish said:


> We can continue to pay for studies because those people need work. They don't really want the cure found too quickly.


I disagree with most of everything you said, and specifically resent this statement. As someone who works alongside scientists and biologists who are dedicating their lives to this estuary and volunteers time on my day off to wade neck deep in the IRL doing seagrass surveys, you are wrong. 

Petitions can get the ball rolling but what else are any of you doing off of this message board to help? Finding is hard to come by, which is why a lot of organizations survive on volunteers. 

The moratorium in the 80’s was a result of overfishing, the loss of fish we have today is due to lack of habitat. Main reason? Eutrophication. Clear and simple. It’s all about infrastructure, and stormwater and wastewater management. The money being spent (2/3rds of the Brevard tax) on muck removal is a waste. It would be much better spent upgrading septics. None of the nitrogen in the IRL is coming from muck. It’s from septic and wastewater discharges. (I’ll link at the end of my rant.) 

The issue in my eyes is the fact that Mosquito Lagoons fish are grouped into the same category all along the Atlantic coast. Our fish are different when it comes to spawning and travel. Regulations should be made with regards to specific ecosystems, not sides of the state. 

Want to make an impact? In two years when the Refuge asks the public about extending commercial fishing, go to the meetings and oppose it. Just don’t let those boys follow you back to your truck because there are some sketchy dudes down there. 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X18300572#!


----------



## Guest (Aug 23, 2018)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> We are an elite few but in the grand scheme of things most people need regulating because they are ignorant and greedy.


Smack, while I agree fully with you on this... regulations are only good if they are enforced. Unfortunately in Florida, that ain’t gonna happen! FWC LE is pretty thin, I don’t see them in the woods except on a rare occasion and seldom on the water. They seem to be directing traffic for road construction a lot though, not sure what’s up with that! One would think FHP would be doin the traffic directing lol! Also, I feel that bag limits and slot limits are great, maybe we need a posession limit imposed on certain species instead of a no keep zone? Especially if northerners are sticking they’re freezers on our conservation efforts!


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Boatbrains said:


> Smack, while I agree fully with you on this... regulations are only good if they are enforced. Unfortunately in Florida, that ain’t gonna happen! FWC LE is pretty thin, I don’t see them in the woods except on a rare occasion and seldom on the water. They seem to be directing traffic for road construction a lot though, not sure what’s up with that! One would think FHP would be doin the traffic directing lol! Also, I feel that bag limits and slot limits are great, maybe we need a posession limit imposed on certain species instead of a no keep zone? Especially if northerners are sticking they’re freezers on our conservation efforts!


I am all too familiar with your concerns because it seems Texas Game Wardens would rather stop people in nice boats in the ICW and check for required gear and fishing licenses and ignore the bank fishermen keeping everything they catch, trashing everything up and most aren’t even legal citizens much less have a fishing license. The only thing I see helping is at least having the laws put in place to deter people with a conscience from breaking the law.


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

mosquitolaGOON said:


> I disagree with most of everything you said, and specifically resent this statement. As someone who works alongside scientists and biologists who are dedicating their lives to this estuary and volunteers time on my day off to wade neck deep in the IRL doing seagrass surveys, you are wrong.
> 
> Petitions can get the ball rolling but what else are any of you doing off of this message board to help? Finding is hard to come by, which is why a lot of organizations survive on volunteers.
> 
> ...


You have the right to disagree. And I’m sorry you resent my statement. I appreciate all the volunteers and those trying to correct our issues. But the one easiest thing to do is tell me I can’t keep a fish. But all these volunteers, local leaders, researchers come up with a constant flow of possibilities, study after study and never a solution. Stop asking for more funding so it can go towards those septic tanks if that’s the issue. I’m tired of hearing about run off. There are so many retention ponds it’s almost ridiculous. You can’t fix a sidewalk section without out a silt fence even if the side walk is in a depression below grade. 
Please explain exactly why redfish numbers and pattern changed directly after the back to back storms a decade ago and have not been the same since? The Mosquito lagoon is hardly in an area of runoff, no real development or tidal flow. The development is far south and north where there is tidal flow. I’m going on. Sorry. Just typing as it comes to me. I’m on your side. However me taking a fish once a month is not the issue. It’s not even a good bandaid. If the fish can’t do well here in small numbers what good does leaving them alone do? Maybe they die, leave, have offspring that can’t survive anyways? Fix the problem first. The fish will return. Remember I’m not really your enemy. Just might not totally agree with you.


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I am all too familiar with your concerns because it seems Texas Game Wardens would rather stop people in nice boats in the ICW and check for required gear and fishing licenses and ignore the bank fishermen keeping everything they catch, trashing everything up and most aren’t even legal citizens much less have a fishing license. The only thing I see helping is at least having the laws put in place to deter people with a conscience from breaking the law.


People with a conscience don’t even need a law. Those without don’t care about the law.


----------



## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Capnredfish said:


> New laws only hurt the guy obeying the laws. Those that break laws, polute will continue. And those that should put the breaks on both won't.


@Capnredfish this reply is not directed at you. 

I don't quite understand this logic. Why have any laws at all then? and if you believe that the only laws to have on the books are those that are strictly enforced, then why have a speed limit? The amount of people speeding vs the ones getting ticketed must be a huge proportion. It only takes a few tickets/violations for the word to start spreading. Also, there are ways of legislating that include expiration dates.


----------



## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

if any one group should be regulated to catch and release only it is fishing guides. They take too many fish, day after day after day. No offense to the guides on this website.


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Yobata, I just do not think we need more laws. Imagine more speed limit laws that you brought up. Right lane 55 between hours of sunrise and sunset. Left lane 35 at all times. Both lanes drop to 35 1000 ft before the intersection unless turning left or right then it drops to 25. All vehicles over 2tons restricted to 35 regardless of lane and follow intersection speed limit of 25. It just becomes ridiculous. Better enforce what you have and solve the true problem. We as a country do a bad job of that. Bandaids and bullshit.


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

devrep said:


> if any one group should be regulated to catch and release only it is fishing guides. They take too many fish, day after day after day. No offense to the guides on this website.


Yes it’s another law. I like the idea I have to say. I doubt many people who flew down or drove a long distance really take the fish home to eat. They keep it out of excitement then have second thoughts. No facts, might need a study first.


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

I get both sides of the equation. But here's the bottom line. Most of those Yankee fisherman y'all keep referring to WOULD follow the law. 

Fact - Every fish released has a chance to survive and reproduce. 
Fact - Every fish put in the cooler is dead. Period.

As to the straw/plastic cup analogy. Nice try but not even close to the same thing. Yes the major issue is habitat but you the fish are still a big component. To be blunt. Pull your heads out before its too late (if its not already).


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

My take on laws. I don’t live by them. I drive a safe speed. Just because a car can reach 120 does not mean I do it. Street cars are too much on the edge at 80. I don’t keep fish I can’t eat today. I don’t shoot people because it’s wrong. I don’t intentionally run over manatees, however I don’t understand how the are suddenly safer on either side of a manatee zone. I haven’t found the magic carpet button on my skiff yet. I don’t live by the laws. I don’t break them because they are in place. But certainly don’t need them to live a fun, useful and productive life. But we need them to punish those after they f with me I guess. Hell, new Publix bogo ad is out. Gotta go stock up on G2.


----------



## Guest (Aug 23, 2018)

I say we put out efforts into clean up! If not, there will be no fish to catch and release!!! You want me to sign a petition? Have that petition demand clean up efforts of our water ways immediately and I’ll not only sign it but will solicit signatures as well. Like I’ve said on many other threads about our environment, get the money people to realize the money they are going to lose and they will get on board! Southwest Florida is feeling only a small bit of the blow that mother nature can swing! Lobby those hotels, restaurants, Walmart, Bass pro, ect... They are the ones that can make the difference needed, we are just here to back them up unfortunately!


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

ifsteve said:


> I get both sides of the equation. But here's the bottom line. Most of those Yankee fisherman y'all keep referring to WOULD follow the law.
> 
> Fact - Every fish released has a chance to survive and reproduce.
> Fact - Every fish put in the cooler is dead. Period.
> ...


Most people that rarely fish would release their fish if their guide pushed it a little. Most people just don’t know any better and gauge their guided trips on Instagram photos of fish in a pile or hanging in long rows on stringers because everyone else is doing it. I’m glad I stopped that crap a while back because it’s ignorant. 
Back to the real issue...overpopulation and government allowing ecosystems to be ruined because money is just too good to pass up and some politicians may get their precious toes stepped on.


----------



## Guest (Aug 23, 2018)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Most people that rarely fish would release their fish if their guide pushed it a little. Most people just don’t know any better and gauge their guided trips on Instagram photos of fish in a pile or hanging in long rows on stringers because everyone else is doing it. I’m glad I stopped that crap a while back because it’s ignorant.
> Back to the real issue...overpopulation and government allowing ecosystems to be ruined because money is just too good to pass up and some politicians may get their precious toes stepped on.


Exactly!


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

ifsteve said:


> I get both sides of the equation. But here's the bottom line. Most of those Yankee fisherman y'all keep referring to WOULD follow the law.
> 
> Fact - Every fish released has a chance to survive and reproduce.
> Fact - Every fish put in the cooler is dead. Period.
> ...


It’s not too late. Nature will rebound. Fish will return. We did not put them in the lagoon to start with. Humans can only think short term. Thinking it’s the end if not fixed in their time. How bout this analogy. Have to keep replacing my grass because I don’t spray enough to kill the chinch bugs. I stopped cutting what’s left burnt it does not help. If you don’t fix the problem the grass won’t survive. Actually I do spray enough. Governments allow HOA’s and both demand grass to be planted and maintained. Great conversation. I wish I had the answer.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Capnredfish said:


> It’s not too late. Nature will rebound. Fish will return. We did not put them in the lagoon to start with. Humans can only think short term. Thinking it’s the end if not fixed in their time. How bout this analogy. Have to keep replacing my grass because I don’t spray enough to kill the chinch bugs. I stopped cutting what’s left burnt it does not help. If you don’t fix the problem the grass won’t survive. Actually I do spray enough. Governments allow HOA’s and both demand grass to be planted and maintained. Great conversation. I wish I had the answer.


People always think they are not a factor in an ecosystem but the reality we are a huge factor. If we were still primitive humans netting and spearing fish for food it would be fine and we would be part of the cycle but we have all this industry, sewage, wasteful fishing practices etc. that totally throw everything out of whack and we try to fix it by all sorts of means which have in the past actually caused more harm than good. Look at the invasive species issues we have! Some of those were put in place to counteract issues we caused before and those new invasive species just cause more problems. People are the problem and if we all just went away mother nature would definitely heal herself but she can’t do it with us here. Even if everyone stopped fishing and running boats we are still causing problems just being here shitting and watering our pretty grass...it all runs into the ocean.


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Very true


----------



## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

el9surf said:


> Well I guess we are doomed, we should accept that fact and not bother trying anything different. The proposed catch and release idea clearly won't help the fish numbers, it's already basically a proven fact. We have established that there are no ethical fiserman that follow rules and nobody is willing to concede their tasty redfish fillets for the betterment of the lagoon. Glad I brought this idea up for you guys to shit on, been a lot of fun. If you don't know the definition of insanity, well nevermind...
> 
> As for the cleanup dollars maybe they can somehow figure out how to filter the lagoon water with that nice green AstroTurf by 2028 . Peace out.


El9,
Don't Peace out. This is how life is. You bring up a topic and elicit responses so you are not entitled to get pissed off when people have differing ideas than your and then belittle them for having an opposing view.

This is how life goes. Remember the old saying "opinions are like.... And everyone's got one".

My opposing view didn't belittle your idea, it was just different and so were the othe 25 or so.


----------



## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

DuckNut said:


> El9,
> Don't Peace out. This is how life is. You bring up a topic and elicit responses so you are not entitled to get pissed off when people have differing ideas than your and then belittle them for having an opposing view.
> 
> This is how life goes. Remember the old saying "opinions are like.... And everyone's got one".
> ...


Agreed! Don’t quit fighten the good fights brother! We do need ideas to keep trying to fix these problems! Not all our ideas are great for everyone though and some will fight you tooth and nail on it. I am one of those on this one too! Keep thinken and that right idea will hit you like a ton of bricks and everyone will be on board!


----------



## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

I would like to throw this out there: Maybe only the residents of Brevard and Volusia counties should be able to vote on a referendum for this idea.


----------



## jlindsley (Nov 24, 2015)

As an FYI, this petition is directed/addressed to the refuge manager Layne Hamilton. Not sure if everyone on here is aware or not but I am pretty sure they just extended the commercial fishing closure another 10 years. I had multiple conversations with her about the issue specifically finfish commercial fishing (black drum commercial guys that cast net black drum and leave crop circles in the seagrass).. The public comment was opened up twice and I feel confident the responses for closure were in favor. I would hope she doesn't propose the closure of recreational redfish recreational harvest if she kept commercial fishing open in an NWR

We as a recreational group may effectively close fishing for ourselves yet commercial access would still exist... As for having a "redfish" permit etc. This has to stop somewhere! As someone who is in the woods or water every weekend, the amount of permits that currently exist is absolutely absurd. To go deer hunting I need a hunting license, deer permit, archery permit, wma permit, muzzleloading permit etc. To fish offshore you better read your regulations the night before because federal could change..

With the above said, the future of the fishery is bleak and I am not referring to habitat/fisheries. The youth trying to get involved in the sport have a wall of regulations and rules in front of them. Perhaps a fishing license that is $10 more that encompasses everything with specific allotments internally for FWC towards certain fish species...

As mentioned by previous posters, we are all in the same boat and want the best for our fisheries and future generations.


----------



## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

yobata said:


> I would like to throw this out there: Maybe only the residents of Brevard and Volusia counties should be able to vote on a referendum for this idea.


This might be good, but if it falls within state waters I’m not sure if it would happen this way???


----------



## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Boatbrains said:


> This might be good, but if it falls within state waters I’m not sure if it would happen this way???


I'm not sure either, maybe since its the NATIONAL wildlife refuge it would fall upon the US Congress, in which case nothing will get done.

I do think that the guides have a hard time saying no to keeping "all legal fish" to paying customers.


----------



## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

It’s all about education! Unfortunately some folks can not be educated! I like to keep a fish to eat but never put any in the freezer. While I don’t support closing a zone, I do support educating and posession limits.


----------



## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

I would possibly support a temporary 2-5 yr short term closure but would have to see hard evidence that it is the only way to fix the problem! I honestly feel the only way to fuc our problem is to get the dang water clean!


----------



## jlindsley (Nov 24, 2015)

Let's also keep in mind a closure would provide significant other pressure on trout and others. We see it with the red snapper closure. Everyone has learned to master triggers, red eyes and seabass.


----------



## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

Like I said, not for any zone closure myself. Would only endorse as last effort! I do not mind season closures but feel some of them are too long for the “needs” of the closure. Also, please don’t get me started on red snapper! When they were talking closures and reduced limits due to low stock, I was seeing more snapper than ever and couldn’t get a bait down to the grouper without catching a damn snapper!


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Boatbrains said:


> Like I said, not for any zone closure myself. Would only endorse as last effort! I do not mind season closures but feel some of them are too long for the “needs” of the closure. Also, please don’t get me started on red snapper! When they were talking closures and reduced limits due to low stock, I was seeing more snapper than ever and couldn’t get a bait down to the grouper without catching a damn snapper!


Oh the endangered red snapper...we run 14 miles out and catch one every drop and at least 2-3 over 20 pounds every trip. Endangered my ass.


----------



## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

Yeah, so threatened that you can still buy it at the fish house!


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Boatbrains said:


> Yeah, so threatened that you can still buy it at the fish house!


Of course, the commercial guys get all they want.


----------



## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

if you are a resident of Brevard or Volusia county and you have a septic system or spray your lawn you will not be allowed to fish. Regulate that.


----------



## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

devrep said:


> if you are a resident of Brevard or Volusia county and you have a septic system or spray your lawn you will not be allowed to fish. Regulate that.


What if you don't have a septic system, but the water treatment facility overflows; can I still fish for turds? I hear the topwater bite on the floaters is insane at 6:23am


----------



## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

It would be very interesting to have every member posting on these different water quality issues post up a pic of their yard. I bet there are a lot more hypocrites than we think.


----------



## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

I have a septic system. I don't spray my lawn, it's bahia.


----------



## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

devrep said:


> I have a septic system. I don't spray my lawn, it's bahia.


I'm on a septic as well. We don't have a choice in that. However we do have a choice on our lawns and weather or not we have them sprayed. I would put money on some of the people asking for us to sign this have their lawn fertilized religiously. They are a huge part of the problem.


----------



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

The Florida Cycle

Nature operates in cycles: the water cycle, the nitrogen cycle, the carbon cycle. These are the big ones we hear about, but there are plenty of other cycles. A cycle that applies to this discussion is one I call the Florida Cycle.

Here's how it works.

1. Florida starts as a pristine wilderness, with humidity, heat and insects making it unsuitable for habitation (except by extremely tough or extremely desperate people).

2. Henry Flagler, air conditioning, insect control and the aftermath of WW2 (emphasis on air conditioning and insect control). Make Florida a desirable retirement and vacation location.

3. People flock to Florida to enjoy the environment that air conditioning and insect control have created. Floridia's economy becomes dependent on continuous growth, thus politicians are hesitant to do anything that may prevent as many homes as possible being crammed into what used to be swamp or to keep business from taking advantage of the environment swamp draining, insect control and A/C have created.

4. Too many people take up too much space, use too many resources, pollute too much water and over time destroy the environment that attracted them in the first place.

5. Florida's economy collapses. Yankee's all move back to Michigan, alligators and insects once again rule Miami west of the Orange Bowl (now Marlin's Park). 

6. The environment recovers and the cycle starts over.

I'm guessing that we're in the early stages of step 4 and about 20 to 50 years from step 5. I'm also guessing that, like Natures big cycles, there's not much we can do to change things. More people want sugar in their coffee and cheap real estate with lots of sunshine than care about how good the fishing is. Politicians will always pander to money.


----------



## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

yobata said:


> I would like to throw this out there: Maybe only the residents of Brevard and Volusia counties should be able to vote on a referendum for this idea.


GFY!

How's that for an opinion. 

What if only the people in Glades county got to vote on the sugar and discharge issues...they might choose to flood you dickz to their east.

Comments in fun, not harsh.


----------



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

DuckNut said:


> El9,
> Don't Peace out. This is how life is. You bring up a topic and elicit responses so you are not entitled to get pissed off when people have differing ideas than your and then belittle them for having an opposing view.
> 
> This is how life goes. Remember the old saying "opinions are like.... And everyone's got one".
> ...



Had to take a backseat for a bit, was sad to see the mindset and responses from some of you. This isn't directed at anyone specific, these are just my thoughts and ramblings, also last post on this. Everyone is entitled their opinion, I get that. I shared the petition and the fact that some folks understand the reasoning and intention is positive to see.

Just frustrated to see the attitude and position shared by so many that this couldn't possibly work. Many of you have your mind already made up and you are unwilling to bend or try something different. The fear of giving up your ability to keep a fish temporairly is short sighted. It's a dangerous and slippery slope to think that the fish I take is not the problem, it's everyone else. With the population of people we have increasing every day this thought process is contageous as new people are introduced to the sport by someone that thinks like this. There's a saying that million drops make a flood. That metaphor can go towards a positive impact or a negative one, it's up to us make the changes necessary to ensure we have something left to pass to our kids.

The petition is for reds and trout only, the two primary game fish in the lagoon. It's for 5 years. Maybe that increases the pressure on catfish, I dont know. There are lots of problems to fix but to make it happen it has to start somewhere. This is a change that can be made quickly. Fixing water issues might take decades.

I thought the statement that ifsteve posted was pretty impactful if you actually sit and think about it. While it seems pretty straight forward, think of the extra 5-10 years of reproduction cycles a fish might have if it's released. Multiply that by 10,000 or whatever the annual number is for fish harvested from the lagoon.
Fact - Every fish released has a chance to survive and reproduce.
Fact - Every fish put in the cooler is dead. Period

As sportsmen and fisherman we have a responsibility to do our best to protect what we have. I will hopefully remember some of the fish I have caught for a lifetime. Letting them go so my kids might have a chance at them or their offspring someday is one of the reasons I release them. As far as remembering meals, well I can't remember what I ate last week. I'm certainly not against keeping fish, I like them as much as the next guy. I just refuse to keep them when I know the whole system is struggling.


----------



## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

As a group of sportsman we can all practice what we preach. Catch and release, we just don't need a law to do so. If my 86 year old grandfather wants to keep a red fish the once of year he goes fishing than I'm keeping a red fish and cooking it for him that night. Most reasonable people aren't catching to stock freezers. A lot of small things to do other than put in another law. Question el9 do you have your lawn fertilized? If so you should start there.


----------



## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

Yes, imagine the impact that could be made if those that fertilize and treat with herbicide/pesticides all stopped at once! This would beat the fertilizer and chemical companies into submission “yes jobs would be lost” but those folks will find work in the xeriscaping field. But all that badness would no longer be getting dumped on our exotic green grasses and into our water!


----------



## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

And all those folks would save some money too!


----------



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

makin moves said:


> A*s a group of sportsman we can all practice what we preach.* Catch and release, we just don't need a law to do so. If my 86 year old grandfather wants to keep a red fish the once of year he goes fishing than I'm keeping a red fish and cooking it for him that night. Most reasonable people aren't catching to stock freezers. A lot of small things to do other than put in another law. Question el9 do you have your lawn fertilized? If so you should start there.


This will be my last post on this topic.

And the bold is the problem. In general, the guys on forums like these take their sport seriously, understand the big picture, and do what they can to help the resource. But I hate to be the bearer of bad news but a huge percentage of people that fish are either uninformed and just do what the law says (and yes a vast majority of people WILL follow the law) (and they are the vast majority of fisherman or are people who I would not put in the same sentence as "sportsman."


----------



## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

makin moves said:


> Question el9 do you have your lawn fertilized? If so you should start there.


MM- do you know there is actually a fertilizer ban from Jun - Oct?

No fertilizer with nitrogen or phosphorus is allowed. Extent varies by county.

The state also banned phosphorus in fertilizer except for flowers, veggies and starter.


----------



## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

DuckNut said:


> GFY!
> 
> How's that for an opinion.
> 
> ...


GFY = Good For You, right?


----------



## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

makin moves said:


> It would be very interesting to have every member posting on these different water quality issues post up a pic of their yard. I bet there are a lot more hypocrites than we think.


I live in a government approved HOA that requires upkeep. I spray insecticide just enough to control, with a professional product through a backpack sprayer vs high volume. I manually remove weeds.
I have fertilized with the currently sold bag of sand fertilizer once in the last two years. My runoff goes into three retention ponds that never reach overflow.
Do you pee in a bottle and bring it home to flush and get at least some treatment or sent out as gray water for lawns, or do you pee in the water?


----------



## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

Capnredfish said:


> I live in a government approved how that requires upkeep. I spray insecticide just enough to control, with a professional product through a backpack sprayer vs high volume. I manually remove weeds.
> I have fertilized with the currently sold bag of sand fertilizer once in the last two years. My runoff goes into three retention ponds that never reach overflow.
> Do you pee in a bottle and bring it home to flush and get at least some treatment or sent out as gray water for lawns, or do you pee in the water?


Only pee in bottles, have quite the collection.


----------



## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

makin moves said:


> It would be very interesting to have every member posting on these different water quality issues post up a pic of their yard. I bet there are a lot more hypocrites than we think.


*Gulp!*

Hi, my name is Megalops, I have St.Augustine grass, a spray service, on septic - and a lawn service. That's right, I don't even mow my own grass. And I eat fish. Lol.

Throwing this out there, does the goon not have a fish stocking program? Seems like the goon needs something like Tampa Bay Watch that we have over here. Our family volunteers with this group, we had a scallop count cancelled today due to red tide at Ft. Desoto.


----------



## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Restricting the catch in the Lagoon would be a "feel good" fix and a distraction from addressing the root problem which is too many people (and businesses) dumping too much waste. It's relatively easy to pass a catch and release law but very, very hard to attack population growth and the negative impacts that come along with it.

There's a segment of the population who will go along with anything that appears to be an easy fix and will never consider how this easy fix is just a waste of valuable time and effort that could be spent addressing the real problem. Politicians just love to pander to these folks because it gets them votes without risking unpopular action.

Passing restrictions on car washing, lawn watering, toilet flushing, bathing, new home construction, and agricultural irrigation would do a thousand times more to solve problems in the Lagoon, but these are hard choices. Politicians would have to piss off home owners, farmers, the construction industry, realtors and all the folks who make their living off tourists. That's not going to happen, so here we are discussing catch and release.

Not to worry. The problem will solve itself. Soon there will be no fish to catch, so the catch and release issue will be moot.


----------



## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

yobata said:


> GFY = Good For You, right?


Glad you understood

I would hate to see all that shiz get dumped your direction.


----------



## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Megalops said:


> *Gulp!*
> 
> Hi, my name is Megalops, I have St.Augustine grass, a spray service, on septic - and a lawn service. That's right, I don't even mow my own grass. And I eat fish. Lol.
> 
> Throwing this out there, does the goon not have a fish stocking program? Seems like the goon needs something like Tampa Bay Watch that we have over here. Our family volunteers with this group, we had a scallop count cancelled today due to red tide at Ft. Desoto.


Isn’t water quality an issue there? Why dump fingerlings in shitty water and hope for the best? I’m just speculating from several states away...but it’s the same anywhere. The marsh is the nursery and if the water is not right the juveniles will suffer.


----------



## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

About the only place fish are thriving is in the nasty water south of New Orleans.


----------



## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

Fish stockings seem to be a bandaid that CCA and other organizations seem to toss out to keep from solving the real issues of to much being taken, loss of habitat, or shitty water quality. 

Out west they have learned the problems with stocking all these years and are trying to fix the issues.

I realize that stocking a fish that is native to a ecosystem is slightly different, but it still doesn’t fix the environmental issues.

I also agree we could all do better(myself included) regarding choices we make with lawns, chemicals and plastics. We can do better.


----------



## jlindsley (Nov 24, 2015)

When did cca propose or endorse stocking redfish in mosquito lagoon?


----------



## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

DuckNut said:


> MM- do you know there is actually a fertilizer ban from Jun - Oct?
> 
> No fertilizer with nitrogen or phosphorus is allowed. Extent varies by county.
> 
> The state also banned phosphorus in fertilizer except for flowers, veggies and starter.


Didn't know that.

But hopefully the lawn zombies do.


----------



## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Isn’t water quality an issue there? Why dump fingerlings in shitty water and hope for the best? I’m just speculating from several states away...but it’s the same anywhere. The marsh is the nursery and if the water is not right the juveniles will suffer.


Yes very true. I also didn't explain myself very well, Tampa Bay watch has put in tons of oyster domes, acres of sea grass and spartina grass all over Tampa Bay that has helped water quality in TB. I think ML could benefit from such an organization and I'm all for a fish stock program anywhere - ponds, streams, ocean.


----------



## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Programs implemented through the SWIM program in Tampa Bay saved that ecosystem. There’s a man named Dr. Brandt Henningsen, head scientist at SWFWMD who completed 40+ Of those projects. Look him up, he’s a great guy. Most of his projects were able to be completed by volunteers and recreational boaters help.

My point is that there are similar projects happening in Mosquito Lagoon. There’s shoreline stabilization’s, marsh and mangrove planting’s, stock assessments, etc. going on all the time. Places like the Marine Discover Center, ran by a great person named Chad Truxall, survive off of volunteers.

If you really care, spend a day volunteering with one of the projects. I’ve never seen anyone from this forum out there yet I see a post every week about how much things suck.

And our water isn’t bad. I’ve been out 5 out of the last 10 days and every single day I found tailing redfish in clear water over healthy grass. South Lagoon is cloudy but with all the fresh water a few weeks ago it’s expected. No algae, no fish kills.


----------



## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Tampa Bay Watch benefited from a recent film night / raffle at Bill Jackson's. A bunch of the local fly community was there supporting it. Good org IMHO that gets their hands dirty frequently with oyster placement and volunteer opportunities.


----------



## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

The final public meeting for the Reasonable Assurance Plan for the Mosquito Lagoon is tomorrow, 10am at the New Smyrna public library. It will outline projected targets for nutrient loads and projects to reduce them. It has been highly debated by locals since its inception and rightfully so. If you’re interested in seeing the future of the lagoon I would highly suggest you attend.


----------

