# 14' mitchell rebuild.



## croneal (May 9, 2017)

First things first, thank you all in advance for your input and assumed passion for small boats. I am sure finally joining the forum and starting this thread will tremendously help me in my process.

Details:
I spent a number of my earlier years on the island of Abaco, Bahamas. I am a dual citizen and love the country and all of the experiences it and my Bahamian family has offered me.
We have since moved to the Midwest in north central Missouri. While in college I took up fly-fishing; I am sure many of you understand the semi-obsession that ensued. Needless to say I learned that my family's home in south Abaco was surrounded by some of the best flats fly-fishing "in the world". With so much water to cover and a desire to hopefully share the experience with folks someday, I figured I would eventually need a boat to get around and learn about the target species in the Bahamian water.
On a recent trip to visit family friends in south Florida, I stumbled on a sad looking 14' mitchell for a couple hundred dollars that looked like a decent candidate for an overhaul and trip to Abaco to serve the purpose of transport to spear-fishing shoals, light trolling, and flats-fishing. To my dismay, I hauled this little boat home only to hear the unfortunate news of the latest in the Bahamian legislature to drastically restrict the ability of folks to be able to use vessels to approach flats-fishing. I found what I understand to be the official documentation for the new laws and if I understand it correctly, I will still be able to build, ship register, and then flats-fish from this boat with my Bahamian citizenship. Fingers crossed.
As far as experience goes, my father and I rebuilt a small Boston Whaler while living in Abaco, but I have slept since then so I am as good as green this time around. I have been in slow and slight progress on the demo portion of the rebuild for a couple months now. I hope to not offend anybody when I say that this little boat was not built very well. I will get some photos posted soon.
My vision/goal for this skiff is to pour a foam floor and build a cap with front and rear casting deck space. Preferably utilitarian in nature.
I have tossed around other ideas for this build like: adding a delta pad, whether or not I will build hatches for dry storage, configurations for the deck (as it will be a multi purpose skiff), 20 or 25 hp tiller, 15 or 20" unit, poling platform?, grabrail?. The list is long and continues to grow.
My main problem currently, is that I am struggling to find composite core materials for the decks and floor. I have shopped through Jamestown Dist. and others, but I was going to give an arm and a leg to have the stuff shipped. I would really like to have the 4x8' sheets. Any suggestions? I am leaning towards the divinycell 5lb sheets but am struggling to find anywhere to pick them up from in the Midwest. At the rates for shipping, I could take a nice vacation to wherever the distributor would be, and drive the sheets back myself and still be out less cash. Anyway, let it rips folks. I have never spent time as a member of a forum before so hopefully I will be present on here. Once again, thank you in advance.
-Clay


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Welcome to the forum.

For your decks I would suggest scraping the foam idea - too expensive for a utilitarian build. Use plywood from your local lumberyard. If they don't carry it I am sure it can be ordered. What you are trying to save in weight won't add up to much but it will certainly drain your pockets.

Use 3/8" for the decks and use strips of plywood vertically to create cross support.

Layout a stringer system and fill it with foam. Use a piano wire or guitar string to cut it flush with the stringer and then mount the floor to it.

You should post some pictures of the hull as you may need to do some work on that first.


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

This is how she sits currently. I'm retaining the filleted piece from the old bench in hopes of using it as a template for a rear bulkhead. Not sure if it will happen or not.


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

When I speak of utilitarian, I am thinking more of versatility and simple in layout. I could be all wet in my idea of utilitarian. The foam definitely won't save much in weight, but straighten my thinking out if it's incorrect- I thought that if I used foam core I would hopefully be able to avoid ever rebuilding the floors or decks again. Unless I screwed up royally in my building process.


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

Here are some of the ideas on paper. Open for discussion. The bow is pretty set in my mind. The stern portion is nearly wide open for suggestions. I'm not sure if I will put hatch access in either front or rear yet. We will see as the project goes.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

If you use marine ply and cover all surfaces with epoxy it will last an incredible amount of time.

The rest of your drawings look like you know what you want - so now build it.

The drawing shows a running pad??? You don't need one as your hull is flat already. Adding one will prove difficult and time consuming and then you may not like the outcome as the boat may get squirrely when at speed.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

I agree with ducknut, use marine plywood. It is easier to find and in some ways easier to work with. Plus it provides the strength in laminates with fewer layers of fiberglass than foam. Epoxy is required for wood if you want longevity...


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

After ducknut's first comment, I sat down and re-evaluated my reasoning for desiring foam core. After pros and cons were lined out, I realized foam was just a assumed and wishful prerequisite. I'm on board with you guys now. 

You fellas thinks a 25 tiller would push this thing decent with 4 people and light gear with the 3/8 decks? I rarely see myself taking 4 people out for anything but piddling around but just curious of your thoughts.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

You want to put 4 people in a 14' boat and fish? Seriously? Is the boat even rated for 4 people?

Remember, when you add the deck and are standing up there the entire dynamics of the boat change as that hull was never designed with a deck. Don't over build it.


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

No, not to fish out of, more to sand bar hop and picnic out in some of the neighboring settlements on the mainland. I don't know if two people could fish out of it comfortably after walking around in it. It may end up being used mainly for transport from flat to flat.u


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

I can comfortably fish 2 out of my 14' skiff - 6' front deck, 5' cockpit and 3' rear deck


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

Wells guys and gals, I hope this isn't common building practice haha. Mdf to cap the stakes and thru hull. The transom was added and cobbled onto obviously but these strakes surprised me a bit.


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

Well today I made decent progress. I knew I had rotten wood in my strakes. So I went to cutting on them to clean all of that out. In the process, as seen in the pictures above, I learned the hard way that the skin of the hull is pretty darn thin. As in one rove, and two mats. Man I feel like a knucklehead after getting too deep into the glass. I should have done more research. Oh well, I knew I'd mess some of it up and I'd have a lot of work to do anyway so I'm not too discouraged. I'm about ready to get my glass and core on site so I can patch some spot in the skin and start the stringers. Anyone have suggestions on how to sand down in the strakes get some better bonding in there? The best option I can think of is by hand, but I would love to hear otherwise.


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

DuckNut said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> For your decks I would suggest scraping the foam idea - too expensive for a utilitarian build. Use plywood from your local lumberyard. If they don't carry it I am sure it can be ordered. What you are trying to save in weight won't add up to much but it will certainly drain your pockets.
> 
> ...



Using wood is asking for trouble

Wood will require complete and total sealing with epoxy - wood is heavy !
Gets even heavier,as it absorbs water


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

predacious,
I thought it was a no brainer to use composites to core the new decks. I just can't find anywhere in the Midwest, and I can't get it shipped from the supplier for less than the composite is worth. More than that the weight bothered me a bit, but I'm guessing that it's a bullet I'll have to bite bc I'm not trying to make this a super expensive project. I have an uncle down south who has rebuilt several boats and has had great luck with wood. I'm hoping to make the "when the wood gets wet" be 20 years down the road. Do you guys think 20 years is reasonable?


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

it is a no brainer to use composites

how long the wood will last,that depends on how well you seal/protect it with epoxy.DO NOT use a polyester resin ! polyester isn't waterproof

anything screwed into wood requires proper sealing - 3m 5200 NOT silicone


I can not understand how people can't find composites - never heard of such things !


Midwest huh ?? Michigan composites,that's a major manufacture...


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## hunter4626 (Aug 7, 2016)

predacious said:


> it is a no brainer to use composites
> 
> how long the wood will last,that depends on how well you seal/protect it with epoxy.DO NOT use a polyester resin ! polyester isn't waterproof
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry about using wood-do not use pressure treated,always seal well with epoxy,seal all drilled holes and thru fittings with the proper sealant, and build it how you want it. Lot of boats were built with wood and the ones that were built right lasted a damn long time


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

predacious said:


> Using wood is asking for trouble
> 
> Wood will require complete and total sealing with epoxy - wood is heavy !
> Gets even heavier,as it absorbs water


When doing small areas the wood will not be much heavier. Novice builders will overbuild and when they do the weight savings is even less and the cost is exponential. Delamination is even greater with composite than with wood.

Using marine wood will be his most cost effective route. In fact, there is an entire website dedicated to building with wood (https://forums.bateau2.com/). Easily enough support and guidance for him to accomplish his project.


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

DuckNut said:


> When doing small areas the wood will not be much heavier. Novice builders will overbuild and when they do the weight savings is even less and the cost is exponential. Delamination is even greater with composite than with wood.
> 
> Using marine wood will be his most cost effective route. In fact, there is an entire website dedicated to building with wood (https://forums.bateau2.com/). Easily enough support and guidance for him to accomplish his project.



hmmmm....

let's use nidacore as a comparison:

full sheet of 1/2" nidacore - costs $65

how much is 1/2" marine grade ply ?

that wood requires epoxy and is more labor intensive,to prevent water intrusion

nida core - it needs 2 shots of 1708 - front and back and it's stiff...done..."2 shots" meaning - 1 layer of 1708 on each side

in 35yrs,every delamination I've seen ,was the end result of "operator error",or water intrusion - EVERY one,was wood coring...never seen anything composite cored,delaminated


wood weighs more than composites - weight is weight

weight is very important to smaller boats - it becomes more of a factory,when that additional weight is up top,versus down low as in cockpit decking...additional weight,as in forward/aft casting decks - these can effect stability - using a light weight material definatley has it's benefits



let me add this:


people think they're saving money using wood - think about this for a second:

you've spent time and money on materials,you've spent countless hours attempting to glass everything together and prevent water intrusion - the inevitable happens,somewhere there was an opening,water has soaked into that wood core,and it's got the beginning stages of delamination and dry rot - dry rot is a fungus.rain water is a great source of the spores to start this fungus/dry rotting...only one thing is going to repair all that....tell me,what did you save ? last time I checked,epoxy costs much more than polyester resin...

here's another scenario - you've modified the boat,using wood...now you've got the boat for sale - people are asking what's the pieces made from - how many do you think are going to be thrilled over the use of wood ?? tell me,exactly how many skinny water skiffs are made from wood,offered on the market today ? most people are not fans of wood,the boating public are fully aware of the pitfalls using wood coring - hence the reason there are no wooden skiffs being mass produced...


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

How much does 2 layers of 1708 + resin weigh compared to 2 layers of 6oz cloth and epoxy?


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Maybe you need to read a bit more. No wood here http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bad_news_for_Bertram.htm

Congratulations on your 35 years as a fiberglass guy. You obviously learned a lot over the years. Maybe you would like to spend the time teaching the OP how to e=seal the ends of the nidacore and how the screw retention works as well.

My suggestion to use the ply was based on his desire to have a simple boat and based on the hull he is using did not want to put a lot of money into it. When he decides to rid himself of the boat somewhere down the road he will have a better return on investment with wood than composite even if he throws the boat in the dump. Spend a couple hundred on wood and epoxy or thousands on composites and resell for a couple hundred.

Marine ply can be had in his area for maybe $50. Your nidacore at $65 will have an oversize shipping charge of roughly equal to if not more than the cost of the panel. Nevermind the incredible hassle of piecing it together if he has it cut down into bite size pieces.

You are experienced and the OP is not and the different level of skill set is vast and the learning curve is steep. I gave him an opinion as to the simple cost effective method that will accomplish his goal. My take is that he wants an easy method to finish his boat and not rack up the dollar investment and not spend the entire summer learning how to properly prepare nidacore. 

Your method is very appropriate in many instances but I do not agree with them in this case. I also see that two other people are on the plywood side as well.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

yobata said:


> How much does 2 layers of 1708 + resin weigh compared to 2 layers of 6oz cloth and epoxy?


You forgot to add the incredible amount of resin soak up, the extreme labor intensive plugging of the edges, and the zero screw holding properties.


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

the starter of this thread - he is attempting to "rebuild/restore" a boat....
he's seen what occurs with using wood...

here's what he stated:

"When I speak of utilitarian, I am thinking more of versatility and simple in layout. I could be all wet in my idea of utilitarian. The foam definitely won't save much in weight, but straighten my thinking out if it's incorrect- I thought that if I used foam core I would hopefully be able to avoid ever rebuilding the floors or decks again. Unless I screwed up royally in my building process"

clearly,the gentleman is thinking about potential problems...

wood has problems - if it didn't,manufactures would use it,and people would want a wooden boat.we're not going to cover old ground,we all know the requirements of wood - this gentleman understands that as well - read what he typed.he wants to do this once,and it appears he wants to do it the right way.

yes,wood is readily available,at a lumber yard - if you ordered plywood on line,it would cost a fortune to ship that too,yes ? composite materials are available - if there's boats,there's a need for fiberglass supplies - plain and simple.but,that would mean actually walking into a store,kind of like walking into a lumber yard....


MIDWEST DISTRICT 


MISSOURI, 
760 South 2nd Street
St. Louis, MO 63102-1600
800.535.4481
615.650.5351
FAX 615.650.5308

INDIANA
1460 E. 12th Street
Mishawaka, IN 46544
800.472.8818
574.259.1505
FAX 574.259.1494

OHIO
1779 Marvo Drive
Akron, OH 44306
866.241.3523
FAX 651.765.8622


OHIO, USA
4005 Borman Drive
Batavia, OH 45103
855.229.4350
FAX 651.765.8622

the above is the Midwest locations for North American Composites - you can not purchase directly from them,you purchase from one of the clients that distribute their products.read that as a local business,you know a "mom and pop"operation,places where you can get advice and purchase products.

there's lots of different composite materials - I used nidacore as an example - nidacore is easy to work with,it's used for bulkheads,deck coring - again,easy product to work with,and it's less expensive than coosa board,or divinycell.no composite will hold a screw - I started a thread explaining the correct,accepted way,to secure fasteners in composite materials.coosa/Penske board - it weighs 45%less than plywood - thickness compared.
the gentleman is modifying the boat,adding front and aft casting decks and a cockpit deck - using a pourable foam,for flotation .that means bulkheads,running across the bottom to support the deck,then tabbing the cockpit deck to the hull sides and the transom - drilling holes and filling the areas with that foam - yes ?

my approach to ANYTHING is simple: do it once,do it the right way,using the best materials available.that's the sort of advice I give.
again,if you're going through all this - cutting something apart,grinding,glassing,ETC - do you really want to go a way that could have potential problems down the line ? if you take the time,to do something right,it will last.using wood in a below deck,such as stringers,bulkheads - drilling holes for drains - setting it up to drain under the foam,then filling that area with foam.water will find it's way into that area,this will turn into a perfect environment for dry rot to form - it doesn't take much of an opening in that wood,for the moisture to seep into - wood sucks up water like a sponge.once wood gets wet,especially in a below deck environment like that,your problems begin.the wood you're using for the cockpit deck - it needs to be sealed on both sides - epoxy. now it's time to refinish,read that as paint/gel coat...epoxy and gel coat,they don't play well together...
that means paint - sure you can use a cheap low quality single part - that will NEVER fully dry and harden,or you're going to need a quality 2 part...composite products are polyester based,designed to work with polyester resins/gel coats - these will chemically bond and mechanically bond together....


there's examples on both sides,or problems


based upon experience,i would never recommend the use of wood,for anything.how anyone recommends,or uses wood,in anything makes no sense to me - again,why have a fiberglass hull ? why not have a wood hull,to go along with all the rest of the wood,why use any coating on that wood ? 

technology - technology is a good thing,products are refined and made better,longer lasting.technology brought us fiberglass.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

If this guy is going to use composites instead of wood, he will probably not use epoxy, but polyester or vinylester resins. He also said that he will be using 2 part pourable foam. Epoxy is impervious to water while the other resins are not. He will eventually end up with water soaked foam...

Also, you keep saying people are not building wooden boats anymore, which is not exactly true. It is true that most production boats do not use wood, but I believe this to be so mostly because it is easier/quicker to build in a mold and use scored corecell (or other) sheets to fit the shape of the hull. There are beautiful wooden boats built using wood and epoxy which last just as long as composite boats, here is one example: http://www.vandamboats.com


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

Fellas, I do appreciate all of the input and experience based knowledge from you all. And here is what I am rounding out of the dialogue.
- There are for a fact both wooden, and composite boats on the market that have been proven to last. Especially with their due maintenance.
- The dingy that my father and I rebuilt 15+ years ago with wood cored, foam filled deck is still in great shape. (wood transom also I believe)
- I have been in many boats over the years that had wood rot, and composite boats that have taken on water in their hulls, retaining the water and causing issues over time, mainly added weight.
- From the get go i decided that i wouldn't compromise the transom or anything below the water line. So thanks to predacious, I am finally getting touch with some people who can help me move forward with this process in obtaining composites. Understanding that I could still screw up the process and have issues to be reconciled down the road.
- Thanks to ducknut and yobata, i realized my casting decks and and other portions of the cap will not absolutely need to be composite, and will be accounting for the bulk of my core material. I found marine ply in my neck of the woods that I can pick up in store, so that is good. Understanding that I eventually will have issues with the topside wooden decks/ca

NOW- let me know from all of you guys if this would just be a bonehead decision:
Since I am not going to core below the waterline (which registers to me as including stringers) should that then also include the floor of the boat. I have found that I can get the portion sized of core material more easily for the stringers now, and will learn more about it once i get in touch with one of these guys with said composite distributor.

Thank y'all for helping me weigh the pros and cons and understand the potential consequences of each material. I am thinking since the boat will be in dry dock 80-90% of its future existence, that the best option for me will be mixed substrate (wood and composite) given function, and cost in mind. This will also give me an opportunity to work with both materials which may be invaluable down the road. Won't know which one I will like most unless I work with both.
Some of things may change, but as of now this is my plan. 

So, do you guys think a 15" or 20" tiller will be better? I am leaning towards 20" because I'd like to give the transom a bit more height when we spearfish and troll out of the skiff on some of the more choppy days. Thoughts? 

I will keep y'all updated. Keep the information and advice coming.


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

Correction- I will not core with wood below the water line (which would include the stringers)


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

I have finally been able to get back at the project. I have pretty well sanded the entire inside of the skin. Through all of it I have discovered several thin spots and small holes. Some of them I have made myself when grinding delamination away. So now I am filling and patching small wholes. I'll get some photos of the inside up later.


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## croneal (May 9, 2017)

It's been a while. I was finally able to get ahold of someone near me that sold the Coosa bluewater. And now that I have had it for a month, I have been able to get some work don't with it. I have the stringers and some ribs glued up, the transom is drying. Hope to get some photos up later.


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