# Most reliable tiller outboard?



## FlatsMafia (Feb 1, 2021)

Looking into a new outboard probably 20 or 25 horse. Wanting to hear y’all’s opinions on what y’all like best. Leaning towards a Yamaha or Suzuki


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## NealXB2003 (Jun 8, 2020)

I believe "reliability" comes more from how you treat and maintain it, rather than which brand you buy. However, I voted tohatsu even though I have a mercury and a Yamaha in my garage. Several guys I hunt with run tohatsu and ive never seen one of them with any issue.


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## flfishpace (Aug 12, 2020)

If it were me I'd get a Mercury or Suzuki just because of personal preference. I don't think you can go wrong with any modern 4-stroke as long as you treat it right. Get what you like and what has specs that match your needs.


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## BrownDog (Jun 22, 2019)

Well maintained 2 stroke OMC


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Hard to beat a Yamaha. This is the age old argument among men. Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge etc


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## B8duncan (Aug 15, 2019)

Kind of strange to see Tohatsu and Mercury on the same list seeing as how they are practically the same motor but I've yet to have any issues with my F20 Yami although i've only own it for about a year so we'll see if that reliability holds up.


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

If you are looking at 25 horse with a 15" shaft then things start to narrow down. Yamaha's 25 does not have power tilt and trim in short shaft , Suzuki and Tohatsu do I believe.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

These days I think reliability from a new, 4-stroke engine is more about proper maintenance than anything. However, if you're looking at relative weights and bang for your buck Tohatsu seems to be killing it in everything from 60hp and under. Years ago I had a Yammy 4-stroke 25hp tiller on a 1648 semi-v jon boat that was great. Then I had a 25hp Tohatsu on a Gheenoe, also great, even after I sank the bitch and flooded the engine- a new ignition harness and flush/replace the fluids and it ran like a champ again. Had a 90 Etec on my Panga Marine 18 Evo with no complaints in the 6 years I ran it although the 90 seemed a little underpowered I went with the lighter weight vs. the higher HP of the 115hp max rating.

When my Sabine Versatile is built (I'm in the build queue) I'll have the short-shaft 60hp Tohatsu on it.


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

A bit more to confuse: I agree about modern 4-stroke ENGINES. Where I will disagree is the other stuff. I have witnessed failure of Tohatsu trim/tilt systems, engine mounts, shift linkages. But never the ENGINE. Have to vote for yamaha for OVERALL reliability.


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## Tail_Chaser (Apr 16, 2008)

What does everyone think about Honda tiller engines? Are they on par with all of the ones listed above?


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

Tail_Chaser said:


> What does everyone think about Honda tiller engines? Are they on par with all of the ones listed above?


They switched the 50 horse over to fuel injection some time back. I wish they would do the same with the 30/25. Weight wise they are on par with Tohatsu


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

They're all good. Make a choice based on the features you need, price and dealer/service proximity. If I were looking for a 25 hp tiller today, I'd look for a Yamaha 2-stroke.


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## FlatsMafia (Feb 1, 2021)

Thanks for all the input! I’ll check out Tohatsu! Still trying to decide but Yamaha is only the top of the list!


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Mercury 2 stroke 25 114lbs of torque. Have 2 of them and you can keep your 4 stroke.


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## obxfish (Jan 26, 2021)

probably best place to find out is go visit some repair shops...to bad for covid...great way to get a free cup of strong coffee...remember to drop a dollar in the jar...here is a little story...may not be true...if you go to most commercial fishing dock or beach in latin america or the carribean...if they can buy them there you will see most all yamaha enduros.. 40hp or less...but thats there...check out the drake for sale...then the four strokes...yamaha started with fuel injection on the larger motors 150..225... they have now worked down to the small ones...they have a nice 25 ..but power trim only in the 20 inch shaft...because of the change in 2 to 4 stroke..there were a lot of problems with the higher wt of the 4 stroke...people started buying the tohatsu ..etech..ect.. the best reason for the tohatsu is they have power trim in the 15 shaft...these are europe zodiak motors...they dont do jet skis there....the biggest thing about yamaha are they have the alloys the best... less corosion...also wider parts and dealer distribution..the moment you go from the enduro to the 4 stroke ... you cant do the maintance properly in the driveway...find the best mechanic and pay the $500 a year to have the motor scaned and service done...and run non ethanol...put fuel stabilzer in the gas when you buy it...use yamaha ringfree...lots of guys running whatever..and just run em til they die..but if you want to put in at 4:30 in the morn and run where seatow dont go...you got to play by the rules..


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

obxfish said:


> probably best place to find out is go visit some repair shops...to bad for covid...great way to get a free cup of strong coffee...remember to drop a dollar in the jar...here is a little story...may not be true...if you go to most commercial fishing dock or beach in latin america or the carribean...if they can buy them there you will see most all yamaha enduros.. 40hp or less...but thats there...check out the drake for sale...then the four strokes...yamaha started with fuel injection on the larger motors 150..225... they have now worked down to the small ones...they have a nice 25 ..but power trim only in the 20 inch shaft...because of the change in 2 to 4 stroke..there were a lot of problems with the higher wt of the 4 stroke...people started buying the tohatsu ..etech..ect.. the best reason for the tohatsu is they have power trim in the 15 shaft...these are europe zodiak motors...they dont do jet skis there....the biggest thing about yamaha are they have the alloys the best... less corosion...also wider parts and dealer distribution..the moment you go from the enduro to the 4 stroke ... you cant do the maintance properly in the driveway...find the best mechanic and pay the $500 a year to have the motor scaned and service done...and run non ethanol...put fuel stabilzer in the gas when you buy it...use yamaha ringfree...lots of guys running whatever..and just run em til they die..but if you want to put in at 4:30 in the morn and run where seatow dont go...you got to play by the rules..


I have to respectfully disagree on the Yamaha having the best corrosion resistance. My 05 Mercury saltwater series is the best corrosion resistant motor I've ever owned and I am in the old category with almost 40 years behind a wheel or tiller just my opinion.


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## obxfish (Jan 26, 2021)

well thats what these forums are here for....the yamaha data is from commercial small boats... used in 70 plus degree water with minimal maintnance... but if you want to know the tech specs google rodbolt...hes on a lot of these forums...Id give ya his phone number..but he prefers you just drop by the house after work...he really does know the tech specs on the alloys....that said...back to my fantasy world...another little tale....was an island south of here...had to ride the big boat 2 hours to get there...had only one mechanic on the island...he only spoke mercury...so all the commercial fellas ran mercurys....fun fact early mercury 4 stroke 225 or 250 was really a yamaha 4 stroke....also all mercury 4 stroke now are made at tohatsu...try finding parts for them...quick 5 point quiz question...when were the first yamaha readily available in the US ????... my bet would be 1987.


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## Tim Wilson (Dec 22, 2016)

FlatsMafia said:


> Looking into a new outboard probably 20 or 25 horse. Wanting to hear y’all’s opinions on what y’all like best. Leaning towards a Yamaha or Suzuki


I have a 2015 Mercury 25hp 4 stroke. I am running it on a Basscat Phelix, dry weight 550lbs. I get about 27 mph with me 250lbs and daughter 125lbs plus gear. The motor has been very reliable so far. I will say get power trim and tilt. The motor is very heavy to tilt manually. I have electric start that probably adds a little weight. I am hard on equipment. The only thing I have had to do so far is change oil and get prop touched up from some self inflicted damage. Oh yea and do pressure test on lower unit when my fishing partner wrapped his line around the prop. Good luck with whatever you chose


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## obxfish (Jan 26, 2021)

sorry spellig error.... the merc 30hp and less are made at tohatsu....try to find a WATER PUMP KIT for a 2019 merc 30hp...let me know....thanks


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Once again...My Yamaha 70TLRZ is 20 years old and can’t kill it. Compression is 125-127 on all three holes and it rips! I run the piss out of it and can’t kill it. I’ve never had more trouble than with my 1998 Mercury 90ELPTO. I’ll never own another black outboard. If I was going with a 25 tiller I’d say an old mid 80’s Evinrude or Johnson or Yamaha 2 stroke. Sorry Jimmy! Haha


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## FlatsMafia (Feb 1, 2021)

not again! said:


> to tail chaser. I've owned a lot of boats of varying sizes and styles. the absolute best outboard I've ever owned was a honda 20 hp with electric start and power tilt. RELIABLE! easy to service, and very fuel efficient. only downside is that they have become a little pricey. jmo


Sorry guys forgot to put Honda up there


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## FlatsMafia (Feb 1, 2021)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Once again...My Yamaha 70TLRZ is 20 years old and can’t kill it. Compression is 125-127 on all three holes and it rips! I run the piss out of it and can’t kill it. I’ve never had more trouble than with my 1998 Mercury 90ELPTO. I’ll never own another black outboard. If I was going with a 25 tiller I’d say an old mid 80’s Evinrude or Johnson or Yamaha 2 stroke. Sorry Jimmy! Haha


I’ll look into it but probably gonna get a 4 stroke


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## FlatsMafia (Feb 1, 2021)

If this has anything to do with motor selections the boat will hopefully be a fin and feather 16 from Forrest in Ocala. Going down this weekend to check it out!


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

This one...









Yamaha 25hp 2 stroke 2004


Motor is mint. Just fully serviced $2800 obo 786-473-4219




www.microskiff.com


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## obxfish (Jan 26, 2021)

im a yamaha person...that said 20 -30 of us all got the 85 AET back in 2007- 2010...those motors were all run 8-10 hours a day 100 days a year...most got new plugs ..lower unit oil ..and water pumps every year...a lot were not flushed every trip... they lasted about 8 years or 7000 hours..there is one or two still running..and the guys that have those go around and buy the old ones and try to keep a powerhead and lower unit rebuilt and ready to slap on...and have to every 6 months or 300 hours...they are fantastic and you do all the maint yourself..but FOREVER comes at about 7000 hours...that said the US version.... check the compression should be 120 or more...the water pump should have been done in the last 18 months.. if it has the electric choke in one of the carbs..they are a problem...looks like that one has the rod choke...no problem.. also no oil tank is best ... the oil feed system works but sometimes needs adjusting...that 25 looks like the one you want... the new yamaha 25 is a very good motor..it is full fuel injection and has pull start...no power trim in the 15 inch shaft.. the 2 stroke is a lighter 116lb vs 4 st weight 125 lb.. Tohatsu is 157lb the gas milage wont make much difference in these 2 gal vs 4 gal for a day of fishing...biggest problem with 2 stroke is the noise...buy the big jar of ear plugs at home depot and keep a zip lock full on the boat...that being said my next boat will have a enduro 40 hp 2 cyl...but new model with only 1 trip on it. 18 ft cold mould skiff. the other thing is you can do the water pump...thermostat...lower unit oil..plugs...yourself...have to keep an eye on the lower unit seals...the 4 stroke you HAVE to take it to the shop every year and pay the man $500..up here in the states I would probably get the 4stroke...but I would go look at that 2 stroke...might change my mind..


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Once again...My Yamaha 70TLRZ is 20 years old and can’t kill it. Compression is 125-127 on all three holes and it rips! I run the piss out of it and can’t kill it. I’ve never had more trouble than with my 1998 Mercury 90ELPTO. I’ll never own another black outboard. If I was going with a 25 tiller I’d say an old mid 80’s Evinrude or Johnson or Yamaha 2 stroke. Sorry Jimmy! Haha


Once you go black you know the rest Mack.
You know my hate of Yamis and Maverick.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> This one...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That motor looks so nice that I'm thinking about buying another boat just so I could have one the right size to hang it on.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Vertigo said:


> That motor looks so nice that I'm thinking about buying another boat just so I could have one the right size to hang it on.


Me too! You better hurry...


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Backcountry 16 said:


> Once you go black you know the rest Mack.
> You know my hate of Yamis and Maverick.


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## NealXB2003 (Jun 8, 2020)

Ive got a 2 stroke 250 and a 4 stroke 70 (first 4 stroke I've ever owned). After 3 years with the 4 stroke, I don't think I'd ever go back to a 2 stroke. Hell, I'd like to start throwing out my old echo 2 stroke lawn equipment to replace with 4 stroke stuff......


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## obxfish (Jan 26, 2021)

Just practicing with this here nu phone...hey fellas what you think..merc or yami...chawk 235...225 yam...petrel 19 .. Had 85 aet...now parts motor...fishhouse somewhere wayyyy down south...


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

D- , but B+ for effort


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## obxfish (Jan 26, 2021)

Try again...18 ft skiff...40 hp enduro


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

I like the lines of that wooden boat.


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## Bjorn240 (Jul 24, 2020)

Specifically at 25hp, I think there’s a to think about. The Yamaha 25 engine is built on a 20/25hp, 432cc twin-cylinder block. The Suzuki 25 engine is built on a 25/30hp, 490cc three-cylinder block. The Suzuki is about 20 lbs heavier, buti thought it had more perceived torque and ran smoother. 

I don’t think either is a bad choice, but I ended up with the Suzuki DF25 on a 16’ skiff. The other thing to note that the only differences between the DF30 and the DF25 is an ECU that allows it to rev 300 rpms higher and a $5 intake seal. So for $5 and 5 minutes, you can have a DF27.5.

I think they’re all effectively lifetime engines if treated well. I have a 1962 Gale 5hp and a 1982 Yamaha 8hp on other boats I own. They’ve been flushed at the end of each season and had the oil changed regularly. Both still run just fine.


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## FlatsMafia (Feb 1, 2021)

Bjorn240 said:


> Specifically at 25hp, I think there’s a lot to think about. The Yamaha 25 engine is built on a 20/25hp, 432cc twin-cylinder block. The Suzuki 25 engine is built on a 25/30hp, 490cc three-cylinder block. The Suzuki is about 20 lbs heavier, but my perception was that it had more perceived torque and ran smoother.
> 
> I don’t think either is a bad choice, but I ended up with the Suzuki DF25 on a 16’ skiff. The other thing to note that the only differences between the DF30 and the DF25 is an ECU that allows it to rev 300 rpms higher and a $5 intake seal. So for $5 and 5 minutes, you can have a DF27.5.


The Suzuki also has power trim and tilt in a short shaft 25 which the Yamaha doesn’t


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## obxfish (Jan 26, 2021)

Trying to stay on topic...and then we'll get to the good stuff...the big guy in the photo runs the fish house...his 235..he rigs boats for a lot of guys...the wealthiest guy in the town had him do a cape horn 25...2 250 mercs...these are the ones with the ignition powerpacks separate..you put them in the center console...he rigged all the other electronics...wire busbars ect..but would not touch the merc...this was all new wires and controls for whole boat...dont worry merc has 5 year warantee....same owner had etech on previous boat..lasted 3 years...but don't worry he has money..owner is a real nice person from a wonderful family...yamaha put out a commercial 4stroke in 2019...way less sensors....probably wont get in US..label from box 4 stroke Europe model ..not commercial...fish house guy did rig 2 of these on a 25 petrel...and the old man and the sea skiff...my next boat...after the Ankona 18 I have for sale here..he builds them also makes guitars...the man he fishes with is the yama mechanic in that town...skiff is 3/8 ply...with fiberglass over outside...this will run shallow..you can run them up on the beach...but they are made to fish offshore...used to be one old fella and his mate that fished one 16 miles out most days...the skills for this will die when they do...ps coolers are full of queen snapper on ice...















.


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## NealXB2003 (Jun 8, 2020)

obxfish said:


> Just practicing with this here nu phone...hey fellas what you think..merc or yami...chawk 235...225 yam...petrel 19 .. Had 85 aet...now parts motor...fishhouse somewhere wayyyy down south...
> View attachment 167090



I think you need a tripod


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## Bjorn240 (Jul 24, 2020)

FlatsMafia said:


> The Suzuki also has power trim and tilt in a short shaft 25 which the Yamaha doesn’t


That’s true. I have the power t/t on my DF25. It works flawlessly, but honestly, e-start and power t/t don’t seem strictly necessary on a 25 hp outboard to me.

In any case, I can’t find anything to complain about with the Suzuki.


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## obxfish (Jan 26, 2021)

good to have those numbers from bjorn240...the reason i bring in all this outside stuff about higher hp motors is that builders do most of the same stuff with all their motors,,, the power trim on the 15 shaft motor is a big deal...that said the 3 vs 2 cyl motor..broke down a 2 stroke 30 merc in mechanic class...it had pistons the size of viena suasage cans..broke down a yam 30 the next week ..pistons looked more like tomato soup cans...


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## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

My favorite small tiller outboard of all time was the Yamaha 3 cylinder, 2 stroke 25 that I had. Ran great, tended to do better getting up with a load than the 2 cylinder. I ran it hard with much neglect for 18 years, it still started on the 3rd pull every time cold and first pull once it had been run and ran great until a car ran into into it. Now I've got a 70TLR which I have always thought was the ultimate skiff motor.


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## FlatsMafia (Feb 1, 2021)

Bjorn240 said:


> That’s true. I have the power t/t on my DF25. It works flawlessly, but honestly, e-start and power t/t don’t seem strictly necessary on a 25 hp outboard to me.
> 
> In any case, I can’t find anything to complain about with the Suzuki.
> 
> View attachment 167112


I’m wanting to power t/t because there is a back deck portion that would be hard to tilt the motor with a manual


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## Bjorn240 (Jul 24, 2020)

That makes sense. My boat is obviously a downeast-style skiff so no issue reaching over for me. For a motor with power tilt and trim, I’d go with the Suzuki. I’ve had good luck with mine - starts every time, whisper quiet, good fit and finish. I don’t think you’ll regret it. Good luck!


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## Rooster (Mar 13, 2011)

FlatsMafia said:


> Looking into a new outboard probably 20 or 25 horse. Wanting to hear y’all’s opinions on what y’all like best. Leaning towards a Yamaha or Suzuki


Absolutely love my Yamaha 25 that I replaced my Yamaha 20 which was stolen in the service yard.


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## Rooster (Mar 13, 2011)

obxfish said:


> probably best place to find out is go visit some repair shops...to bad for covid...great way to get a free cup of strong coffee...remember to drop a dollar in the jar...here is a little story...may not be true...if you go to most commercial fishing dock or beach in latin america or the carribean...if they can buy them there you will see most all yamaha enduros.. 40hp or less...but thats there...check out the drake for sale...then the four strokes...yamaha started with fuel injection on the larger motors 150..225... they have now worked down to the small ones...they have a nice 25 ..but power trim only in the 20 inch shaft...because of the change in 2 to 4 stroke..there were a lot of problems with the higher wt of the 4 stroke...people started buying the tohatsu ..etech..ect.. the best reason for the tohatsu is they have power trim in the 15 shaft...these are europe zodiak motors...they dont do jet skis there....the biggest thing about yamaha are they have the alloys the best... less corosion...also wider parts and dealer distribution..the moment you go from the enduro to the 4 stroke ... you cant do the maintance properly in the driveway...find the best mechanic and pay the $500 a year to have the motor scaned and service done...and run non ethanol...put fuel stabilzer in the gas when you buy it...use yamaha ringfree...lots of guys running whatever..and just run em til they die..but if you want to put in at 4:30 in the morn and run where seatow dont go...you got to play by the rules..


I have been running only non ethanol and fuel stabilizer in my new Yamaha 25. But what is the “ring free” and why should you run it also? Seems like getting a lot of additives added but I will if it’s that important...


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## obxfish (Jan 26, 2021)

ring free was made by yamaha when they went from 2stroke to 4stroke..ox66..these were 2stroke motors with fuel injection..so they had to put a exhuast sic.. sensor..like those o2 sensors that set off the check engine light in all the 80s cars....problem was cause they were burning the mixed gas and oil ..the sensor would get fouled..If you talk to an etech mechanic they will swear by the stuff...etech have 100 plus sensors...the yamahas have about 30...if anyone has exact sensor numbers for these motors post them..thing is ring free keeps all those sensors clean ..also helps with injectors..but mostly combustion chamber...


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

redchaser said:


> My favorite small tiller outboard of all time was the Yamaha 3 cylinder, 2 stroke 25 that I had. Ran great, tended to do better getting up with a load than the 2 cylinder. I ran it hard with much neglect for 18 years, it still started on the 3rd pull every time cold and first pull once it had been run and ran great until a car ran into into it. Now I've got a 70TLR which I have always thought was the ultimate skiff motor.


We agree on something! I have three of them. Can’t kill the first one...


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## Viking1 (May 23, 2010)

I've owned them all and my favorite is Yamaha on reliability. The only problem I have had with a new motor was with Suzuki. My Suzuki had a rusty valve after one year. The problem was taken care of under warranty and 2 years later no observable rust and motor starts up on 2nd or 3rd pull. Here lately the carb bowl on the Suzuki vibrates loose and I have to tighten the 10mm bowl screw about once a month. I know when it is loose because the motor will be hard to start.


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## KnotHome (Jul 21, 2009)

I know a company that runs 60+ Yammis and Mercs. 5 Yammis currently have exhaust leaks due to corrosion. No such problem from Mercs.


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