# Adding a bilge pump



## tfl813

I currently run a trolling motor off of a deep cycle battery, the trolling motor is the only thing on the battery.  To install my bilge pump could I just attach the + and - connections of the bilge pump to the battery terminals, along with the trolling motor connections that are already on there?  

So basically can I have two things attached to the same battery without having everything explode?

Electronics clearly is not my specialty, neither is anything else now that I think about it  ;D


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## tntwill

just use a fuse between the pump and the bat.


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## cutrunner

If you hook the brown wire from the bilge pump (+) to the positive of the battery and the black wire of the bilge pump (-) to the negative battery post, the pump will always be on, and melt.
You have to put a switch on it, beit a float switch or a toggle switch.
I never fuse my bilge pumps btw.


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## jms

one of the best pumps to use,for a small boat is the whale pump - i've used quite a few of these - never a problem.the design allows alot of mounting options - these can be wired for strictly automatic operation,and manual operation - these require no switches,it's an elctronic sensor.


side note:

NEVER install ANY electrical accesory without fusing it !


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## tfl813

Thanks for the input, I did a little research and found a kit made by Attwood.  It includes a pump, switch, fuse, port, extra wires, and hose.  I went ahead and bought it.  I should have it hooked up as soon as I get my boat back (I'm having it switched to a new trailer).  I'll be sure to post up the pics.     

Here it is: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Tsunami-500-Bilge-Pump-Installation-Kit/11071162


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## jms

> Thanks for the input, I did a little research and found a kit made by Attwood.  It includes a pump, switch, fuse, port, extra wires, and hose.  I went ahead and bought it.  I should have it hooked up as soon as I get my boat back (I'm having it switched to a new trailer).  I'll be sure to post up the pics.
> 
> Here it is: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Tsunami-500-Bilge-Pump-Installation-Kit/11071162



there's a reason that kit is so cheap : that in line fuse,it's gonna last about a week,before it corrodes to nothing...that hose,it's the worst,very prone to breaking and cracking from the sun.that switch is also low quality,and it's never a good idea to use a nylon thru hull - the sun will cause these to crack and break as well...
attwood products are known for being low quality...

smart move is to use a smooth wall,hose - "sanitation" hose is an excellent choice for discharge hose.be sure and use a waterproof inline fuse,along with heat shrink,marine grade connectors and marine grade wiring - there's a huge difference between automotive wire and marine grade...
buy a quality pump,granted,the cost may be initially more,however,after the components in that kit fail,how much did you really save ?


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## cutrunner

> side note:
> 
> NEVER install ANY electrical accesory without fusing it !


Im going to have to politely disagree on that one.
Everything but the bilge pump should be should be fused
ESPECIALLY if the boat stays in the water at a dock.
For example
Lets just say your boat was tied up at the dock for your week long vacation in the keys.
Your boat is non-self bailing.
You and your buddies decide to leave the islamorada house for the 1hour or more drive to key west and get trashed for the night.
While your gone, a huge rainstorm hits islamorada and dumps rain into the boat.
If your bilge pump is fused with the recommended 7.5 amp fuse (i believe), it doesnt take much to pop it, and your bilge system stops, resulting in a possibly sunken boat. (worst case).
Now, if the bilge pump is not fused, it will keep running till it either drains the boat, or cant keep up , gets a short (small chance), and melts.( If its underwater its not gonna catch fire) at least it went down trying.. Not cuz a 20cent fuse failed.
My opinion and many many others.


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## fsae99

I go back and forth on the fuse issue for the BP. Every fiber of my Industrial electronics education says fuse it. Every fiber of my boating knowledge says most fires on small boats are electrical. Every fiber of my human conditions says I want it to run no matter what, until it blows if needed. 

I currently run a fuse twice the recommended size and wire twice the recommended size from the end of the factory wiring on pump to battery. The connection to the factory wires is above board. Hopefully this would keep any burning wire out of the console.

Yes it is fine to have BP and TM on the same battery, nothing will explode. Some sort of switch does need to be installed. If you have no BP now then the cheap one is better than none.


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## Dillusion

Mine is setup two ways....non-fused and fused. And with my gheenoe NMZ I need it to always work ;D

My automatic bilge pump switch is wired directly to the battery, and the manual bilge switch is wired with a fuse.


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## tfl813

> there's a reason that kit is so cheap : that in line fuse,it's gonna last about a week,before it corrodes to nothing...that hose,it's the worst,very prone to breaking and cracking from the sun.that switch is also low quality,and it's never a good idea to use a nylon thru hull - the sun will cause these to crack and break as well...
> attwood products are known for being low quality...
> 
> smart move is to use a smooth wall,hose - "sanitation" hose is an excellent choice for discharge hose.be sure and use a waterproof inline fuse,along with heat shrink,marine grade connectors and marine grade wiring - there's a huge difference between automotive wire and marine grade...
> buy a quality pump,granted,the cost may be initially more,however,after the components in that kit fail,how much did you really save ?



I'm gonna use it then if something breaks, I'll just replace it.  I'm gonna run the wires all through a large hose to protect them from the sun and to make it neat.  I'm with you on the heat shrink and connectors, though. Keep in mind that this is for a jon boat.


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## jms

> side note:
> 
> NEVER install ANY electrical accesory without fusing it !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im going to have to politely disagree on that one.
> Everything but the bilge pump should be should be fused
> ESPECIALLY if the boat stays in the water at a dock.
> For example
> Lets just say your boat was tied up at the dock for your week long vacation in the keys.
> Your boat is non-self bailing.
> You and your buddies decide to leave the islamorada house for the 1hour or more drive to key west and get trashed for the night.
> While your gone, a huge rainstorm hits islamorada and dumps rain into the boat.
> If your bilge pump is fused with the recommended 7.5 amp fuse (i believe), it doesnt take much to pop it, and your bilge system stops, resulting in a possibly sunken boat. (worst case).
> Now, if the bilge pump is not fused, it will keep running till it either drains the boat, or cant keep up , gets a short (small chance), and melts.( If its underwater its not gonna catch fire) at least it went down trying.. Not cuz a 20cent fuse failed.
> My opinion and many many others.[/quote
> 
> 
> you are kidding,right ?
> 
> seriously,installing any electrical equipment without a fuse is asking for trouble...
> 
> tell me,what's gonna cause that fuse to blow ? especially when the pump draws much less than the reccomended fuse size - doubt me ? check it with an ammeter,while it's pumping water...
> doubling the fuse size?
> 
> bilge pumps are equipped with screens,to prevent anything from entering them and jamming the pump...
> 
> in just about 20yrs in the marine biz,i've never heard such things,as i just read...
> 
> "pump's underwater" - what about the wiring ? all that under water ?? battery too ? if the pump melts,the wires still have power and ground - unfused power too...think about that...
> 
> you are aware of a little thing called ABYC,yes ? you are aware there's "codes" as well as "common sense" ?
> 
> if quality,equipment is used,equipment "right for the job",such as waterproof inline fuse holders and proper adhesive lined heat shrink - the odds of having a problem with connectons is about as good as winning the lottery...using cheap,low quality stuff,the odds drop consideribly...
> 
> you guys do what you want,but installing anything without a fuse is not a good idea...using cheap low quality equipment is just as bad...
> 
> 
> i need one good reason not to use a fuse ? think anyone can sell it to me ?
> 
> if a circuit breaker in your house pops,what do you do ? install a higher amerage ? wire direct ? or,find the cause ?
Click to expand...


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## DuckNut

Why would someone hook something electrical up without a "weak link" designed to fail before causing a catastrophy?

Doubling the fuse - wouldn't that be like using a 10D common nail as the fuse - ensuring that the wires overload and potentially catch fire? Hoping they melt and break in half before catching fire is just not a good idea.

If you wire something improperly and it catches fire and burns the place down - your insurance company may tell you to pack sand as you were given instructions how to properly wire the item and you and only you made the concious decision to ignore the instructions and safety warnings.

I am not an electrical engineer - but I did stay in a Hilton last night.


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## jms

> Why would someone hook something electrical up without a "weak link" designed to fail before causing a catastrophy?
> 
> Doubling the fuse - wouldn't that be like using a 10D common nail as the fuse - ensuring that the wires overload and potentially catch fire?  Hoping they melt and break in half before catching fire is just not a good idea.
> 
> If you wire something improperly and it catches fire and burns the place down - your insurance company may tell you to pack sand as you were given instructions how to properly wire the item and you and only you made the concious decision to ignore the instructions and safety warnings.
> 
> I am not an electrical engineer - but I did stay in a Hilton last night.


you can bet on that !!
also,if a shop,as in buisness, wired it like that,they're on the hook...


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## tntwill

> If you hook the brown wire from the bilge pump (+) to the positive of the battery and the black wire of the bilge pump (-) to the negative battery post, the pump will always be on, and melt.
> You have to put a switch on it, beit a float switch or a toggle switch.
> I never fuse my bilge pumps btw.


WELL I HOPE YOU HAVE A FIRE EXTINGUISHER [smiley=shithappens.gif] IMO


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## cutrunner

Wow youve never seen debis get stuck in the pump and get past the sad excuse for a screen?
Look, i have no problem taking your advice for fiberglass, but thats it..
In the end whats the difference? A sunk boat, or a half burnt sunk boat?
Either way its junk


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## cutrunner

And yes im aware of abyc and nmma standards


> I never fuse MY bilge pumps btw.


Read carefully


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## jms

> Wow youve never seen debis get stuck in the pump and get past the sad excuse for a screen?
> Look, i have no problem taking your advice for fiberglass, but thats it..
> In the end whats the difference? A sunk boat, or a half burnt sunk boat?
> Either way its junk


never seen a stuck pump - sorry,in just about 20yrs,never seen it...
have i seen pumps go bad ? yup
have i seen the screen clog ? yup
seen pumps melted,rule automatic pumps - fuse never blew - correct amperage fuse too...


using cheap,low quality pumps,hosing,and wiring,causes problem,using good quality stuff avoids these problems...

suggesting not to fuse a piece of electrical equipment is pretty bad,pretty stupid too...

i'm thinkin' you should take my electrical advice too - your's isn't very good...


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## jms

> And yes im aware of abyc and nmma standards
> 
> 
> 
> I never fuse MY bilge pumps btw.
> 
> 
> 
> Read carefully
Click to expand...


this is what you typed: "For example
Lets just say your boat was tied up at the dock for your week long vacation in the keys.
Your boat is non-self bailing.
You and your buddies decide to leave the islamorada house for the 1hour or more drive to key west and get trashed for the night.
While your gone, a huge rainstorm hits islamorada and dumps rain into the boat.
If your bilge pump is fused with the recommended 7.5 amp fuse (i believe), it doesnt take much to pop it, and your bilge system stops, resulting in a possibly sunken boat. (worst case).
Now, if the bilge pump is not fused, it will keep running till it either drains the boat, or cant keep up , gets a short (small chance), and melts.( If its underwater its not gonna catch fire) at least it went down trying.. Not cuz a 20cent fuse failed.
My opinion and many many others."


read that carefully...


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## cutrunner

You win, my knowledge or lack theirof pales in comparison.
When my boat burns to the waterline one day cuz i used that cheap crap Anchor wire , heat shrink, and rule pumps. You can say i told you so.
I'll be waiting


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## jms

> You win, my knowledge or lack theirof pales in comparison.
> When my boat burns to the waterline one day cuz i used that cheap crap Anchor wire , heat shrink, and rule pumps. You can say i told you so.
> I'll be waiting



no need to be a douche,i certainly didn't insult you...

unfortunatley,people go to web sites like this,for advice,and information,when an inexperienced individual reads poor information,it creates problems - people tend to believe what they read to be true and accurate,and make their own interpretation of it.some one could read what you typed,and "morph it" from there into,nothing electrical requires fusing.it's your boat,you can do whatever you wish with it,but,typing poor information,such as not fusing a bilge pump is irresponsible,than compoundng on it by typing the pump's underwater,as to justify if the pump burns up,it won't catch fire is even worse - someone "in the buisness",i'm assuming you're an outboard tech,yes ?,should know better than that...
no one knows everything,i certainly don't profess to know everything,you clearly don't know everything either - there's certain "standards" and "codes" specified for different things,it's best to adhere to those codes - it keeps you out of trouble...

"it's best to be thought the fool,than to open your mouth ad prove it" - wise words my friend,wise words...


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## cutrunner

Arguing over a fuse is silly. I have my way of doing things, period. If someone reads your post and thinks im silly, so be it.
If someone reads my post and "morphs" it, oh well..
I can assure you i know my way around electrical, and have done this for a long time as well.
Year round, not during the northern "boating season" half the year.
If yomeone wants to fuse their pump thats fine. I never said its a bad thing, and i never said fuses are not needed for the rest of the boat. I just stated you will not find a fuse on my bilge pump.


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## fsae99

My bilge pump came with a 2 Amp fuse and 16awg wire. If the 8 gauge wire I use for my trolling motor will handle 60 amps for the TM I'm sure it will handle the 5 amps before the fuse blows without catching fire. Even 16 gauge will handle 5 amps for a very long time before it starts to burn. So the fire risk is very small, most likely no greater than it was to start with and I'm not that worried about it. 

I know for a fact that my bilge pump pulls 1.25 amps when submerged and running. When it is getting interment water or essentially free spinning it pulls .5 amps. All electric motors pull more amps when the get hot than they do when they are cool. I do not think 2 amp fuse is big enough to accommodate long term use without blowing.

Having gone through torrential down pours and rain all night (non self bailing hull) just a week ago my bilge pump ran without fail or melting/burning wire. So outside of the theoretical and academic, in the real world my setup performed as expected. 

I were to run a shop and installed a BP for a customer I would have left a 2 amp fuse in it just for liability reasons (CYA).


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## disporks

Ok guys you are each entitled to your own opinion on how to wire a bilge pump 

On a serious note...I've got 2 bilges I've been needing to install in my boat but havent got around to it yet...What type of wire are you running from your bilge pump to your battery/switch? I read that I need TINNED wire, to handle the saltwater element. Where can I find it locally for a good price? (Cheap) 
Would I be Ok with regular awg wire heatshrunk and run through a rubber hose sealed on both ends? (Thinking running this through the stringers on my boat (aluminum)


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## tfl813

My boat is aluminum, no need for me to worry about a fire


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## DuckNut

Carolina - good to see you did some tests so you KNOW what is happening when you flip the switch.

Maximum Amps for AWG wire is simple: take the diameter in mills; square it and divide by 700.  Basically 1 amp per 700 circular mils.

A 16 guage wire has approx diameter of .055 (55 mils) (squared is 2601) and then divide by 700 = 4.33 maximum amps for power transmission.  

4.33 recommended max amp rating with a 5 amp fuse??  Either you did your homework   or simply dumb luck.  Lets not discuss the TM wire.

I will repeat: I am not an electrical engineer - but I did stay in a Hilton last night.


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## fsae99

DN, I did my homework many moons ago and applied what I learned then and years of experience (only good thing about getting older)to things I do now. I very rarely guess and very rarely never test.

dispo, I'm 2 states away so I do not know any local store for you to get tinned marine wire. I pay a little more at my local store to help keep a mom+pop shop viable.


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## DuckNut

I know you did study back in the day and continue to do so - Kudos and keep it up.


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## disporks

I guess when I said local I meant mass chain or something, west marine (probably) or any other type of store? I tried to buy some 8g from a local tackle shop but they want like 80$ for enough to do my trolling motor...their gulp is also almost 7$ a pack lol


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## Dillusion

I got my tinned wire off ebay...there is a seller in GA that has great prices...

100ft of 16ga tinned wire - $16 shipped
27ft of 6ga tinned wire - $30 shipped


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## tfl813

I got the bilge pump installed, everything works great!  I'll have some pictures up of the wiring after I get back from the keys for mini season.  I also noticed the whole kit comes with a 3 year warranty.


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