# Gamakatsu SC15 Saltwater Hook problem?



## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

I started using these hooks and something is wrong? I keep hooking fish in the gill area At first I thought it was bad luck, but now I'm convinced it's the hooks. Anyone else have this problem?


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## SC on the FLY (Sep 16, 2015)

im not seeing it , but maybe its how the fish is taking your particular fly


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## duppyzafari (Jul 9, 2015)

I tie on the SC15 more than any other hook, and haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary. 

The thinness of the wire, angle of the point, gap shape, (and scary sharpness) do "grab" and penetrate super aggressively, so maybe that has something to do with it. 

Was it one style of fly or one species in which you noticed this phenomenon, specifically?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Yes, I agree with duppyz with more background on the situation. What kind is fish, what is the water like, how are you working the fly and setting the hook? Where exactly are you hooking the gill area? Inside, or outside plate area.

I'm assuming you are fishing lately in this cold weather where you are allowing the fly to pause for an extended period of time since the fish are lethargic. I'm assuming you are talking about redfish & trout here?

Are you tying your own flies?


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Something is wrong with my hooks also. I cast to reds and come back with these guys.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> Something is wrong with my hooks also. I cast to reds and come back with these guys.


Ha! Love those poor man's bonefish! Like that fly too! I like a pattern like that in olive as well!


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

This was happening during the summer down in the Glades. I was using the Mirrolure pattern sub surface and the hooks were penetrating where the tongue meets the gills. All Snook with a strip hook set.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

RunningOnEmpty said:


> This was happening during the summer down in the Glades. I was using the Mirrolure pattern sub surface and the hooks were penetrating where the tongue meets the gills. All Snook with a strip hook set.


Snook will either do 1 of 3 things. They will bump it, thump it or inhale/ engulf it. It's very possible that they are seeing your mirrorlure fly pattern (which is a typical mullet pattern or trimmed down Dalberg diver) as a small mullet, which they tend to inhale and you are not catching it until it's too late. You have to make sure your rod tip is touching the water and the rod is pointing at the fly at all times. With your rod up off the water (I see most people with their rod tip from a foot to as much as 3 ft off the water) you never feel when the eat happens and they even have time to take a second gulp before your react.

So.... rod tip touching the water, on any pause, you are constantly taking any slack in, rod pointed at the fly and hit em the split second you feel the fly stop, bump or thump or see the eat. No rod setting, just straight strip setting. With snook, the strip set doesn't have to be real hard (especially with a sharp hook like that), just a quick drawl effect (like a gun slinger).


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

Backwater said:


> Snook will either do 1 of 3 things. They will bump it, thump it or inhale/ engulf it. It's very possible that they are seeing your mirrorlure fly pattern (which is a typical mullet pattern or trimmed down Dalberg diver) as a small mullet, which they tend to inhale and you are not catching it until it's too late. You have to make sure your rod tip is touching the water and the rod is pointing at the fly at all times. With your rod up off the water (I see most people with their rod tip from a foot to as much as 3 ft off the water) you never feel when the eat happens and they even have time to take a second gulp before your react.
> 
> So.... rod tip touching the water, on any pause, you are constantly taking any slack in, rod pointed at the fly and hit em the split second you feel the fly stop, bump or thump or see the eat. No rod setting, just straight strip setting. With snook, the strip set doesn't have to be real hard (especially with a sharp hook like that), just a quick drawl effect (like a gun slinger).


The takes were all explosive.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

RunningOnEmpty said:


> The takes were all explosive.


Then unfortunately, the hook has nothing to do with it. When they do that, they pop their mouth open and flair their gills and inhale it. That's what they do with mullet when they are on the hunt. Again, if you follow those steps above, you still might be able to hook them in the lip or jaw, but you have to be ready and paying attention. Also, make sure you have a long pair of hemostats with you.

What size were they?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Btw, were they in those spots where I was mentioning? Where (not exactly where but what was the habitate?)? What were the conditions?


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

Backwater said:


> Btw, were they in those spots where I was mentioning? Where (not exactly where but what was the habitate?)? What were the conditions?


Saw grass and mangrove shore lines. I can hear the traffic on US 41 and the water is dark and mostly fresh. All of the Snook that got hooked bad were around 30". I have lost some really big Snook in this place.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

The only problem I ever had with Gamakatsu hooks (in general) is that I've never been able to find them in bulk at wholesale…. They're fine hooks but you won't ever see me using them if I can't gain access to them in quantity for a good price…. 

By comparison, I'm able to purchase Owner hooks by the thousand per size...


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

lemaymiami said:


> By comparison, I'm able to purchase Owner hooks by the thousand per size...


Bob, I hope you're not tying that many flies.


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## duppyzafari (Jul 9, 2015)

RunningOnEmpty said:


> Saw grass and mangrove shore lines. I can hear the traffic on US 41 and the water is dark and mostly fresh. All of the Snook that got hooked bad were around 30". I have lost some really big Snook in this place.


I wonder if the difference between the body mass of a fly and the living creature that it is meant to resemble accounts for the problem in the larger fish. 

Like many predatory fish, the snook pops it's mouth open in an instant, creating negative pressure that the water directly in front of his face rushes into equalize, drawing prey along with it. Excess water travels out of the flared gills and the mouth closes upon the prey.

The fly is much lighter in mass than the water in which it is suspended, and is probably becoming tangled in the gill structure as it rushes out of the hill along with the water. 

In smaller fish, the force of the take or the size of the mouth in relation to the fly is lesser than in larger fish, perhaps accounting for the discrepancy you're seeing. 

Just a thought.


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

duppyzafari said:


> I wonder if the difference between the body mass of a fly and the living creature that it is meant to resemble accounts for the problem in the larger fish.
> 
> Like many predatory fish, the snook pops it's mouth open in an instant, creating negative pressure that the water directly in front of his face rushes into equalize, drawing prey along with it. Excess water travels out of the flared gills and the mouth closes upon the prey.
> 
> ...


That makes perfect sense!


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

After thinking about this a bit,I think this whole problem goes back to what Ted said about having a direct line from the rod tip to the fly, which I found pretty obvious and it's something I practice, but there are exceptions. The only time I have problems with flies being inhaled deeply is when I'm employing what I call a staccato (short and violent) style strip which, by nature leaves slack in the line because the fly keeps moving after you've stopped pulling, so then when the fish sucks the fly in when there's slack,it ends up deep in the throat, otherwise, when I'm swimming the fly, trying to maintain a direct connection, I never have a problem.
JC


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

jonrconner said:


> After thinking about this a bit,I think this whole problem goes back to what Ted said about having a direct line from the rod tip to the fly, which I found pretty obvious and it's something I practice, but there are exceptions. The only time I have problems with flies being inhaled deeply is when I'm employing what I call a staccato (short and violent) style strip which, by nature leaves slack in the line because the fly keeps moving after you've stopped pulling, so then when the fish sucks the fly in when there's slack,it ends up deep in the throat, otherwise, when I'm swimming the fly, trying to maintain a direct connection, I never have a problem.
> JC



At times hungry fish can just come on so strong that your ability to get things tight isn't up to the task (and that particularly goes for a fish that's strikes fast -then turns back to cover all in the same moment (at least that's how it feels...). I'll bet that you could change where the hook bites in that situation by going to a simple clinch knot instead of a loop knot at the fly... Like most I far prefer a loop knot since it allows the fly more action - but sometimes.... I also use a clinch or a palomar knot when I'm working in situations where I don't want the fly to sink nose first (bones in really shallow waters, etc)

For Backwater - no I'm not tying in great quantities anymore-but old habits die hard....


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## Redfarm5 (Apr 3, 2015)

The Gami SL12 seems to hit the lips pretty consistently for me. Prob have to go up a size to get the same gap as the SC15. I've broken both of them on bigger fish, but there's no perfect hook. I think the little curve at the point gives it a little bit of circle hook set.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

lemaymiami said:


> For Backwater - no I'm not tying in great quantities anymore-but old habits die hard....


I'm coming over with the shovel! Ha!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

duppyzafari said:


> I wonder if the difference between the body mass of a fly and the living creature that it is meant to resemble accounts for the problem in the larger fish.
> 
> Like many predatory fish, the snook pops it's mouth open in an instant, creating negative pressure that the water directly in front of his face rushes into equalize, drawing prey along with it. Excess water travels out of the flared gills and the mouth closes upon the prey.
> 
> ...


I'm going to have to say that what Jon Conner said was true. Also I haven't really thought about the clinch knot vs a loop knot like what Capt LeMay said. Funny tho, with spin fishing with jigs, I almost exclusively use a clinch knot, but jerk baits and most non weighted flies, I'll use a loop knot. Weighted flies, it's half and half, depending on if I want the fly to tract straight will little movement, or trying to catch their attention.

You hear me talk alot about tarpon. But snook is my 1st love (Shhh, don't tell my wife! Ha!). 

Woops.... She knows!!! Ha!



I have a deep, life long passion for snook. To me, reds are more of a by-catch than a target, But I'll fish for about anything. It's all good. I've drugged my 1st snook home when I was 6 and was hooked ever since. Pure live long obsession! I've taken more snook than you want to know, on fly and every other method there is, everywhere you can imagine. I can certainly write several books on the subject and can tell you more stories than you can shake a stick at!  It will probably be a big part of my eulogy (one day in the far distant future (hopefully not anytime soon! Ha!)) from people who really know me. Whoa.... Where was I going with that?? LOL

Oh yea, I've stuck them everywhere. But the main place I'll catch them on the fly is in the corner of their mouth. WHY? Cause I'm payin attention. When I'm not and not doing the above description, then they will suck it in like a hoover! The big girls will flair on big offerings like that fly, so you really got to be on your toes,or that's gonna happen. Sometimes tho, it just can't be helped!

Ted Haas


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

Backwater said:


> I'm going to have to say that what Jon Conner said was true. Also I haven't really thought about the clinch knot vs a loop knot like what Capt LeMay said. Funny tho, with spin fishing with jigs, I almost exclusively use a clinch knot, but jerk baits and most non weighted flies, I'll use a loop knot. Weighted flies, it's half and half, depending on if I want the fly to tract straight will little movement, or trying to catch their attention.
> 
> You hear me talk alot about tarpon. But snook is my 1st love (Shhh, don't tell my wife! Ha!).
> 
> ...


I love catching snook, but a few reds every now and then would be very nice. Seems like I can only catch snook?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

RunningOnEmpty said:


> I love catching snook, but a few reds every now and then would be very nice. Seems like I can only catch snook?


That's not a bad thing tho.  I prefer the fight of a snook better, it's more challenging. There are plenty of reds down there. They normally try to segregate themselves from where snook normally post up. Find the pattern and you'll be able to consistently target reds in the Glades more often.


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## Capt. Eli Whidden (Jun 7, 2012)

The Sc15 is an excellent hook! I agree, try keeping the slack out of your line. Boat drifting towards a fish in strong winds while a fish is moving your way is always tough.....


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Right now, if you want to look for reds, especially sight fishing, try looking on the back side of the outside islands when the winds are somewhat laying down and the water is not all mudded up and merky. Do that on the inside or leeside of the islands and look for shoreline that starts shallow with root and mangrove branch cover and then somewhat quickly starts dropping off deeper as you head out.. Do that close to the lower side of the tide where the fish get pushed out from under the mangroves due to the receding tide. They like that type of shoreline cause it pushes everything else out of the roots so they can forage on it, as well as deeper water close to them, incase they need to run for cover (or in this case, deeper water). 

Unless snook are sunning themselves to warm up, they generally don't like to leave themselves out in shallow wide open spaces. They are more of an ambush fish and like to hide, while reds are more prowlers. So you can ease along those low tide shorelines and spot them moving down the shoreline or just sitting out there near the edge. Stealth is key and small presentations are important when they are out in the shallow open like that. Again, small natural colored shrimp and crab patterns even large bonefish flies will work. Remember, you are sight casting to them, not blind casting. Keep another rod rigged for redfish flies that are more suited for blind casting in deeper, more open water or around cuts, points and ledges with water still under the roots. Bigger flies that push more water, or with darker or brighter colors to catch their attention. Or keep that mullet fly on (mirrowlure fly) and go to something more town down and natural, like this fly my buddy Scott Graham designed and published back in the 90's. Both he and I took a lot of reds, snook and big trout with this fly. But it's a gem on big reds. I don't know why he uses that over size eyes on a mullet fly, but those bif red eyes seem to catch their attention.

I tied this one up the other day.




Ted Haas


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## GG34 (May 2, 2014)

Backwater said:


> Right now, if you want to look for reds, especially sight fishing, try looking on the back side of the outside islands when the winds are somewhat laying down and the water is not all mudded up and merky. Do that on the inside or leeside of the islands and look for shoreline that starts shallow with root and mangrove branch cover and then somewhat quickly starts dropping off deeper as you head out.. Do that close to the lower side of the tide where the fish get pushed out from under the mangroves due to the receding tide. They like that type of shoreline cause it pushes everything else out of the roots so they can forage on it, as well as deeper water close to them, incase they need to run for cover (or in this case, deeper water).
> 
> Unless snook are sunning themselves to warm up, they generally don't like to leave themselves out in shallow wide open spaces. They are more of an ambush fish and like to hide, while reds are more prowlers. So you can ease along those low tide shorelines and spot them moving down the shoreline or just sitting out there near the edge. Stealth is key and small presentations are important when they are out in the shallow open like that. Again, small natural colored shrimp and crab patterns even large bonefish flies will work. Remember, you are sight casting to them, not blind casting. Keep another rod rigged for redfish flies that are more suited for blind casting in deeper, more open water or around cuts, points and ledges with water still under the roots. Bigger flies that push more water, or with darker or brighter colors to catch their attention. Or keep that mullet fly on (mirrowlure fly) and go to something more town down and natural, like this fly my buddy Scott Graham designed and published back in the 90's. Both he and I took a lot of reds, snook and big trout with this fly. But it's a gem on big reds. I don't know why he uses that over size eyes on a mullet fly, but those bif red eyes seem to catch their attention.
> 
> ...


Ted, would you mind sharing that pattern? Thanks.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

You can start out with a 1/0 Gami SC15, the one in the pic about is a Owner mosquito hook in a 1/0 (but they do rust). My buddy Scott Graham who designed the fly uses a heavier SS hook, to add some weight to it, like a Mustad Fly Hook #77660SS.

Start off with tan or white thread. I use Danville's flat wax nylon 6/0

I like to find 2 pairs (up to 3 pairs) of grizzly regular or chinese strung hackles and splay them inward (but Scott likes them kicked outwards). Tie them in as the tail on the top bend of the hook, sticking straight back.

Tie in 6 strands of crystal flash on each side of the tail either silver (for clearer water) or gold (for darker water), timming them off short of the tail lenght.

Next I tie on a tuff of tan marabou on the top side of that, rolling it on each side, as well as the top.

Tie in tan deer body hair with the tips facing back and stacked on top. Don't spin it. Then I tie in 1 or 2 more stacks of body hair in front of that and pack in on fairly tight. Then I trim it close under the shank of the hook and trim up a head on top of the shank. Next I tie in white artic fox hair in front of the head but under it, for the belly. I leave a little under fur on the fox hair to give it some added bulk under the head. Trim it, tie it off and finish the head with red thread.

Scott uses the heavier hook to get the fly down since he stacks white deer belly hair for the belly (stacking tan on top and stacking white below for the belly), which causes it to float higher. Redfish are usually looking down so he wants the fly to get down there. I can get away with a lighter hook since I use fox hair for the belly, so the whole thing doesn't ride very high.

I think those are 7-8mm eyes. I also use yellow eyes or white. But red seems to get their attention.

They lay down pretty nicely and has a mullet shape when wet.

Ted Haas


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

Backwater said:


> Right now, if you want to look for reds, especially sight fishing, try looking on the back side of the outside islands when the winds are somewhat laying down and the water is not all mudded up and merky. Do that on the inside or leeside of the islands and look for shoreline that starts shallow with root and mangrove branch cover and then somewhat quickly starts dropping off deeper as you head out.. Do that close to the lower side of the tide where the fish get pushed out from under the mangroves due to the receding tide. They like that type of shoreline cause it pushes everything else out of the roots so they can forage on it, as well as deeper water close to them, incase they need to run for cover (or in this case, deeper water).
> 
> Unless snook are sunning themselves to warm up, they generally don't like to leave themselves out in shallow wide open spaces. They are more of an ambush fish and like to hide, while reds are more prowlers. So you can ease along those low tide shorelines and spot them moving down the shoreline or just sitting out there near the edge. Stealth is key and small presentations are important when they are out in the shallow open like that. Again, small natural colored shrimp and crab patterns even large bonefish flies will work. Remember, you are sight casting to them, not blind casting. Keep another rod rigged for redfish flies that are more suited for blind casting in deeper, more open water or around cuts, points and ledges with water still under the roots. Bigger flies that push more water, or with darker or brighter colors to catch their attention. Or keep that mullet fly on (mirrowlure fly) and go to something more town down and natural, like this fly my buddy Scott Graham designed and published back in the 90's. Both he and I took a lot of reds, snook and big trout with this fly. But it's a gem on big reds. I don't know why he uses that over size eyes on a mullet fly, but those bif red eyes seem to catch their attention.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip! Most of the time I just pound the mangroves and oyster bars. Water clarity down here makes it very difficult for me to spot the fish. I also use a trolling motor. I don't have a fly fishing buddy and the wife isn't gonna pole me around LOL


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

RunningOnEmpty said:


> Thanks for the tip! Most of the time I just pound the mangroves and oyster bars. Water clarity down here makes it very difficult for me to spot the fish. I also use a trolling motor. I don't have a fly fishing buddy and the wife isn't gonna pole me around LOL


That water is what I'm taking about. Believe me, I've fished it for eons. I'll be camping and fishing several times in March, out of Choko. That's why I said use the TM or pole those low tide shorelines. You'll be able to spot the reds, especially with their wakes.


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