# Relationship between casting skill and fly rod upgrades



## Wiggles (Dec 25, 2020)

My very first rod was an orvis recon 5wt. Living in Florida, I quickly got into heavier salt rods etc. I can only compare old to new. My first 8 was a sage rpl +. Heavy, slow so bad. I fished it for like 4 years and my aunt handed me a sage x 8. It was remarkable. I could throw the entire line with 2-3 false casts and accurately. I now own sage x in many weights. So as to the question of does a higher end rod enable you to cast better? If you have the basic mechanics there’s no doubt whatsoever that the rod is a huge factor. That and line tippet flow to fly etc. doing the same motion and using the same effort I improved dramatically. After several years now, sensitivity and presentation play a huge roll. But I dunno. I have no problem paying to play and I’m the salt you gotta pay. Better to do it once right?


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

GaterB said:


> How has everyone's rod quivers changed as they progressed as fly casters? Have you found yourselves spending the extra coin for the premium fly rods as you improved? Have you found that your less expensive rods got "better" with you, or did you begin to feel they limited what you were able to do? Do you think it even matters? Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this!


I feel that as you become more proficient as a caster, you can adapt to most any fly rod action (slow to extremely fast) with relative ease. One reason to upgrade your quiver is that the higher end rods are usually much lighter. I still love some of my slower, softer rods for dry fly fishing.


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## BadKnotGuy (Jul 8, 2012)

As my skills got better I found myself going nicer until I began to start getting anxiety over my tackle breaking when fishing from kayaks or really small boats. Then I began going back down to the TFO/Redington level which are more expendable. They work great. After that I began building my own rods which then put be back in the top end performance range without the top end dollars (or anxiety).


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## mfdevin (Jun 18, 2020)

I enjoy having a few different rods that do different jobs more efficiently. At this point I feel as comfortable with fiberglass as I do a Scott sector, but situationally may choose one over the other. In general I tend to gravitate more toward the medium-fast realm.


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## rams (Jun 16, 2015)

The rod does not make you a better caster. Becoming a better caster makes you a better caster. That take practice. Changing rods can change your learning curve if one fits your stroke better, ie faster or slower rod, but as you progress you can adapt your cast to any style rod. 
If you think you have a rod that sucks, give it to a good caster and watch what they can do. My experience is they can make it cast as good as any other.

"Spending extra coin" I would say I have spent too much money on fly gear but it's a passion so I chalk it up to an investment in the fun bank.


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

rams said:


> The rod does not make you a better caster. Becoming a better caster makes you a better caster. That take practice. Changing rods can change your learning curve if one fits your stroke better, ie faster or slower rod, but as you progress you can adapt your cast to any style rod.
> If you think you have a rod that sucks, give it to a good caster and watch what they can do. My experience is they can make it cast as good as any other.
> 
> "Spending extra coin" I would say I have spent too much money on fly gear but it's a passion so I chalk it up to an investment in the fun bank.


You see that in golf (I don’t golf) all the time. Guys dressed up like Rodney Dangerfield in Caddyshack with all the latest/greatest gear. You can’t buy a golf swing!


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## UpStateAngler (Sep 2, 2021)

My first few rods were medium/slow action, used on trout streams and ponds. As I moved into saltwater fly fishing, learned to cast/double-haul, I found my way into fast action rods. I still practice casting, and these days I like light, balanced rod/reel/line combos that just "feel' right in my hands. I believe good fly casters can throw tight loops & long casts with most modern fly rods, but if given a choice, will pick the lighter, better feeling gear if available.


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## Nway93 (May 9, 2016)

I’ve gone through quite a few rods and reels til my current quiver and haven’t picked up any “new” rods in probably 5 years. I think like most I was getting the latest and greatest thinking it’d make me a better caster and sold some rods that I now wish I kept thinking it was the rod not me. Later on I found out that quite a few of those rods didn’t fit my casting style but I could make them work. Right now I’ve got methods, cc glx, and cc pro 1’s and don’t plan on adding anything unless I stumbled across another 9wt method or some pro 1’s. None of the newer rods are that much better IMO to justify upgrading.


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

What exactly would I use for an excuse if I used premium gear?


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

Sublime said:


> What exactly would I use for an excuse if I used premium gear?


You could say that you need a more expensive reel to “balance the system”!


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## SS06 (Apr 6, 2021)

I started with TFO professional2 ($179) at the suggestion of my local fly shop and a guy who used to work there. Couple months later i bought a Clutch Core 9wt at a silent auction thinking ....$450 rod will cast better. I've struggled with the Clutch, but every time I pick up the old TFO Prof2 I cast them pretty well. The Clutch is a faster/stiffer rod I struggle to feel load...probly getting rid of that one soon


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

Sublime said:


> What exactly would I use for an excuse if I used premium gear?


Hard to comment as I don't know your financial situation.
An excuse, other than it is something I want is all I need.
That is also because I never spend money if it's inappropriate to play with.

BTW,
I've 15 or so rods and over 20 reels.
I've acquired them over the last 50 years though and still have the first two rods.
On rare occasions I fish the second one, first one I keep for the memories.


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## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

indians not the arrow. ive seen some old timers throw fiberglass better than this high tech stuff.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

Getting old  can't count, been over the last 60 years


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## Featherbrain (Nov 5, 2021)

Rookiemistake said:


> indians not the arrow. ive seen some old timers throw fiberglass better than this high tech stuff.


I’m not old but I enjoy throwing a glass rod more than the high tech stuff. It’s just simply relaxing and fun to me. However they all have their place and at the coast in the wind is definitely a different story.


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

My premium rods purchases went up as I started having disposable income.


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

I have maybe three or four saltwater rods and about that many reels. Money is not an issue. Next rod will be a 9wt since I don't have one or another 7 wt. I love me some 7 wt. I will probably never buy new again, there are too many good deals that pop up here if you are paitient.


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

Featherbrain said:


> I’m not old but I enjoy throwing a glass rod more than the high tech stuff. It’s just simply relaxing and fun to me. However they all have their place and at the coast in the wind is definitely a different story.


Glass is actually a great choice for fishing dry flies, nice shock absorber for both light tippet as well as fighting fish.


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

I'll add that there is an understanding that if you're on my skiff you are welcome to grab one of my setups anytime and most guys I go with are the same. So if I take a couple of rods and my guest for the day brings three rods then that gives a good variety at our disposal.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

Sublime said:


> on my skiff you are welcome to grab one of my setups anytime


Your nicer than I am. Almost half of my rods are 90's and before. Would be hard to replace.
About the only people I let use my stuff were my mom and dad. Both experienced fly casters.
But then if they liked one of my rods I'd buy one for them as a gift. Same with reels. 
Lines... they were on their own 
Guides when I was on their boat are about he only other people I've let cast one of my rods.


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

mro said:


> Your nicer than I am. Almost half of my rods are 90's and before. Would be hard to replace.
> About the only people I let use my stuff were my mom and dad. Both experienced fly casters.
> But then if they liked one of my rods I'd buy one for them as a gift. Same with reels.
> Lines... they were on their own
> Guides when I was on their boat are about he only other people I've let cast one of my rods.


It seems like quite a few guides prefer that clients use the guide’s setup. No worries about backing knots, leader age and knots, and fly line condition.


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

The Fin said:


> It seems like quite a few guides prefer that clients use the guide’s setup. No worries about backing knots, leader age and knots, and fly line condition.


I understand this point when you having a guy from Illinois come down and do his once a year trip but my gear is rigged and ready and I've never had a failure on mine. I've have failures on my guides gear more than once.


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## Outearly (Oct 20, 2015)

BadKnotGuy said:


> As my skills got better I found myself going nicer until I began to start getting anxiety over my tackle breaking when fishing from kayaks or really small boats. Then I began going back down to the TFO/Redington level which are more expendable. They work great. After that I began building my own rods which then put be back in the top end performance range without the top end dollars (or anxiety).


Bad, what 7-8 blanks have you built on that you’re happy with?


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## BadKnotGuy (Jul 8, 2012)

My actual favorite 7 was an older Lamiglas G1000 w/ Moderate Fast action. I wish they still made those, they weren't even expensive either. I like the blanks that have softer tips and load up a little quicker since most of my fly casting is done at ranges of about 40 feet max as I blind cast mangrove shorelines. Next up I am going to try a Rod Geeks blank I think. Probably a 10 for big jacks and little-mid tarpon. North Fork Composites looks interesting too.


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## btpeck14 (Mar 18, 2021)

For me, I don't think price = premium. As I've become a better caster, I know more what I like in a rod and go from there. If a rod is easy and fun for me to cast, then it's "premium". My three rods that get the most use now are a #9 T&T Sextant, a #6 TFO Axiom 2x, and a #8 NFC Iconoglass - depends on the day which one I use.

Now if we're talking reels, I have an unhealthy obsession for the high end stuff....


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## rovster (Aug 21, 2018)

Not big into fly but have dabbled with it but with spinning, rod makes a huge difference in casting. The only flyrod I've ever thrown is an old Orvis 7wt that I can sling pretty good, been curious to get myself a good middle to upper end 8 to start slinging flies more. Interesting discussion, I would have thought the rod was even more important in fly vs spin.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

rovster said:


> I would have thought the rod was even more important in fly vs spin.


There are a lot more variables in setting up a fly rod vs spin.
That said there are less expensive rods that can do 80/90% of the top tier brands.
If your new to fly fishing and can cast 20 to 50 feet with some accuracy you will catch some fish. 
Once you get to 65/70 feet you'll be just short of what the pros can do.
At the end of the day, the catching part of fly fishing is no different than throwing a artificial lure.
We all have to get the offering in front of the fish.
The challenges presented by fly fishing is just a little more involved and satisficing to some.


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## Barbless Bob (Apr 22, 2019)

GaterB said:


> How has everyone's rod quivers changed as they progressed as fly casters? Have you found yourselves spending the extra coin for the premium fly rods as you improved? Have you found that your less expensive rods got "better" with you


There's no doubt that this excellent question should be asked by fly fishing consumers and manufacturers/retailers. As for me, I've fly fished for more than 45 years and 30 plus years in saltwater (mostly Florida, but some in Texas and South Andros Island). I have found that the high expense of today's "state-of-the-art" fly rods has little relationship to the quality of your cast. If you have tons of money and want an expensive rod, buy it. But, if you are resource limited, there are many excellent fly rods for saltwater under $250 that will perform as well, if not better. Using myself as an example, I have some rather expensive fly rods, but when I travel to Florida to fly fish I use my quiver of inexpensive 7, 8, 9, and 10 wgt rods from the same manufacturer, each of which cost less than $250. The reasons are manifold and include the fact that all four rods cost me less than one expensive rod. If any rod breaks fighting an untargeted beasty jack, shark, or heavyweight snook, I'm not cancelled from completing my trip. If a 7 wgt. should break, I can use the 8 weight. Best of all, the whole set of four rods have very similar actions, so I don't have to make dramatic casting-movement adjustments. Regarding performance, I recently test cast some of the newest expensive rods. Of the bunch, none of them cast substantially better than my cheapos. It's been said so many times on this site that to become an adequate saltwater caster you must practice, practice, practice and develop good technique. The better your technique, the more you will care about the quality of the line you are using than the rod.


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## jonny (May 1, 2007)

The Fin said:


> You see that in golf (I don’t golf) all the time. Guys dressed up like Rodney Dangerfield in Caddyshack with all the latest/greatest gear. You can’t buy a golf swing!











I couldn’t screen grab it so I had to edit it. I know it’s almost boomer like. But I’m not that old. So all you young whiper snappers shut up about it😂


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## WC53 (Dec 2, 2015)

jonny said:


> View attachment 213486
> 
> I couldn’t screen grab it so I had to edit it. I know it’s almost boomer like. But I’m not that old. So all you young whiper snappers shut up about it😂


Flyrods are like drivers. Some people buy a new one every year and still can’t swing it,


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

A good caster can make good casts with pretty much any rod they pick up. For the most part, the rods available on the market today are all good, especially when you compare them to the typical rod of 15-20 years ago. When I started fly fishing (mid 80's) there was a very noticeable difference between value rods and premium rods. These days, not so much and the performance difference is slim. Besides aesthetics and top quality components, premium rods are more likely to be lighter in hand and have better accuracy from the blanks ability to recover from the shock of the cast. They will probably hold up better from the better components. 
To answer your original question about how my older rods cast versus my newer premium rods; yes as I've gotten a lot better at casting over the years, the older rods I have, cast better than they used to. As the old adage goes, it's the Indian and not the arrow. I've got enough rods and ability to cast them, that I have rods for specific purposes with lines chosen to fit those actions for what I want to do with them.
I have a good buddy that has plenty money to fish the best gear you can buy and he throws a Redington Vice as his primary rods in 6wt and 8wt. He is a really good caster and very patient on the bow of the skiff when making his casts to fish. Full disclosure, I have all Sage rods not because they are the best, because I want to.


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## mfdevin (Jun 18, 2020)

jay.bush1434 said:


> A good caster can make good casts with pretty much any rod they pick up. For the most part, the rods available on the market today are all good, especially when you compare them to the typical rod of 15-20 years ago. When I started fly fishing (mid 80's) there was a very noticeable difference between value rods and premium rods. These days, not so much and the performance difference is slim. Besides aesthetics and top quality components, premium rods are more likely to be lighter in hand and have better accuracy from the blanks ability to recover from the shock of the cast. They will probably hold up better from the better components.
> To answer your original question about how my older rods cast versus my newer premium rods; yes as I've gotten a lot better at casting over the years, the older rods I have, cast better than they used to. As the old adage goes, it's the Indian and not the arrow. I've got enough rods and ability to cast them, that I have rods for specific purposes with lines chosen to fit those actions for what I want to do with them.
> I have a good buddy that has plenty money to fish the best gear you can buy and he throws a Redington Vice as his primary rods in 6wt and 8wt. He is a really good caster and very patient on the bow of the skiff when making his casts to fish. Full disclosure, I have all Sage rods not because they are the best, because I want to.


Have you fished the r8 yet? I lined up 5 8wt rods and tried them with SA saltwater mastery, and it was noticeably lighter, more responsive, and accurate. My second choice was the maverick, but I was willing to pay twice the price for the r8, and I work realllly hard, and don’t like to spend that kind of money. One of the guys I fish with prefers to fish a cabelas, or redington crosswater, and he’s one of the fishiest guys I know. If it works it works.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

mfdevin said:


> Have you fished the r8 yet? I lined up 5 8wt rods and tried them with SA saltwater mastery, and it was noticeably lighter, more responsive, and accurate. My second choice was the maverick, but I was willing to pay twice the price for the r8, and I work realllly hard, and don’t like to spend that kind of money. One of the guys I fish with prefers to fish a cabelas, or redington crosswater, and he’s one of the fishiest guys I know. If it works it works.


I haven’t fished the R8 but I have cast the it a couple times. It is very light in hand. Feels light like a Winston Air and has the vibration dampening/tip recovery of the X. Feel like it loads a little deeper in the blank but has a faster tip. Has good sensitivity but also loads easily giving the caster lots of feedback. I think the line it was paired with was Rio Bonefish which is a true weight line so the rod is easy to cast. Did not feel like it is a really powerful rod but considering it only goes up to 9 or 10wt, I’m not surprised. Expect Sage to come out with a replacement for the Salt HD built on the R8 blank technology. It is a good rod and I like it. Ground breaking game changer...no. My vote goes to the Sage Sonic for excellent performance at only $675.


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## Earle Waters (5 mo ago)

The Fin said:


> I feel that as you become more proficient as a caster, you can adapt to most any fly rod action (slow to extremely fast) with relative ease. One reason to upgrade your quiver is that the higher end rods are usually much lighter. I still love some of my slower, softer rods for dry fly fishing.


I totally agree most people switch rods thanking it will improve there casting but the truth is it’s all about timing and once you get that down you can cact with a broom stick or as I have often demonstrated with no rod at all🤗🇺🇸


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

jay.bush1434 said:


> I haven’t fished the R8 but I have cast the it a couple times. It is very light in hand. Feels light like a Winston Air and has the vibration dampening/tip recovery of the X. Feel like it loads a little deeper in the blank but has a faster tip. Has good sensitivity but also loads easily giving the caster lots of feedback. I think the line it was paired with was Rio Bonefish which is a true weight line so the rod is easy to cast. Did not feel like it is a really powerful rod but considering it only goes up to 9 or 10wt, I’m not surprised. Expect Sage to come out with a replacement for the Salt HD built on the R8 blank technology. It is a good rod and I like it. Ground breaking game changer...no. My vote goes to the Sage Sonic for excellent performance at only $675.


Jay,

I'd be interested in why you like the Sonic do much? I've never casted it.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

Jason M said:


> Jay,
> 
> I'd be interested in why you like the Sonic do much? I've never casted it.


Good question. The Sonic and the Maverick are basically the same rod, one for fresh water and one for saltwater. The difference, besides color, is the blank wall thickness. The Sonic has slightly thinner walls than the Maverick and it allows the rod to load a little deeper and still have a fast action. I specifically chose the rod for sheepie fishing which is generally short fast casts with smaller flies. It turns out that it has become my go to rod for any given day in the marsh. It happens to really like Cortland liquid crystal line btw. I have even caught a 45lb-ish black drum on it that ate a green convict killer fly. Bent the rod into the handle but a 9/10wt fish on a 6wt is going to put a good bend in a rod. I will say that the Maverick would probably be better suited for the typical salt marsh/flats fish and conditions as it has more power in the butt section for pulling on bigger fish and/or pushing the fly into the wind. It really depends on how each rod/line combo feels in your hand for the fishing you do. Some of it will depend on you skill level casting and fighting fish.


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

jay.bush1434 said:


> Good question. The Sonic and the Maverick are basically the same rod, one for fresh water and one for saltwater. The difference, besides color, is the blank wall thickness. The Sonic has slightly thinner walls than the Maverick and it allows the rod to load a little deeper and still have a fast action. I specifically chose the rod for sheepie fishing which is generally short fast casts with smaller flies. It turns out that it has become my go to rod for any given day in the marsh. It happens to really like Cortland liquid crystal line btw. I have even caught a 45lb-ish black drum on it that ate a green convict killer fly. Bent the rod into the handle but a 9/10wt fish on a 6wt is going to put a good bend in a rod. I will say that the Maverick would probably be better suited for the typical salt marsh/flats fish and conditions as it has more power in the butt section for pulling on bigger fish and/or pushing the fly into the wind. It really depends on how each rod/line combo feels in your hand for the fishing you do. Some of it will depend on you skill level casting and fighting fish.


Thanks. I have an 8wt Maverick and 10wt X. I like both of them but having a good short cast rod would be nice.


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## Joe52 (10 mo ago)

I think the line pairing makes as much of a difference as the rod itself. My buddy and I cast 4-5 nice rods, each with 3-4 diff lines at the same time on the lawn and we found the diff lines were way more of an issue than the diff rods. Just my 2 cents


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## MGdave (Jul 27, 2016)

As they say, it’s not the seat…
It’s the @ss in it. 
the TFO professional 2 is inexpensive and most people find it easy to cast.
For redfish in the marsh in south Louisiana, the 9 wt is hard to beat. It’s very durable, maybe not as fast as some of the high end rods today, but if you slow down the casting stroke and let it load it’s a rocket


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Durability and weight of the rod/reel become more important in the progression of a sightcast fly caster. Destination trips, expensive guides, and fast tough fish are hard on equipment and the caster.


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## SS06 (Apr 6, 2021)

MGdave said:


> As they say, it’s not the seat…
> It’s the @ss in it.
> the TFO professional 2 is inexpensive and most people find it easy to cast.
> For redfish in the marsh in south Louisiana, the 9 wt is hard to beat. It’s very durable, maybe not as fast as some of the high end rods today, but if you slow down the casting stroke and let it load it’s a rocket


That's what I throw...TFO PROF2...7 AND 8WT...it just seems to match my style and stroke...I have a Clutch 9wt but I don't seem to feel it like the TFO's


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## ikankecil (Jan 14, 2022)

Over time it's become a case for me of learning what my arm likes, regardless of how new or old the "technology" is or what they cost. 

Years ago, a fly shop I frequented had an 80# class offshore rod rigged up in the back room with a 3wt reel/line. The owner would accompany customers to the casting lawn out back of the shop with that broomstick that had a 3wt line on it and get them casting to 70' within a minute of picking that thing up. After people did that, they could basically cast any rod on the planet to the backing knot, it was no longer about "if I spend a bunch more, I can cast further".

Some of my rods are decades old and still see regular use, other rods in the rack behind my desk cost far more than anyone would admit in polite company. My arm likes both.


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

ikankecil said:


> Over time it's become a case for me of learning what my arm likes, regardless of how new or old the "technology" is or what they cost.
> 
> Years ago, a fly shop I frequented had an 80# class offshore rod rigged up in the back room with a 3wt reel/line. The owner would accompany customers to the casting lawn out back of the shop with that broomstick that had a 3wt line on it and get them casting to 70' within a minute of picking that thing up. After people did that, they could basically cast any rod on the planet to the backing knot, it was no longer about "if I spend a bunch more, I can cast further".
> 
> Some of my rods are decades old and still see regular use, other rods in the rack behind my desk cost far more than anyone would admit in polite company. My arm likes both.


Yep. I've got a 9wt and 11wt RPLX rods and they see regular use all the time. The 11 has caught numerous tarpon. I was telling an equipment rep that I still fish RPLX rods occasionally and he couldn't believe it. Also these were my first nice rods I could afford so there's sentimental value.

I'll say the older weight rods are truer to weight than the new ones. The new rods are a half size to heavy IMO, consequently the lines are heavy. The newer rods also seem to like a faster tempo cast. 

Having said that the Sage X is a very good rod for me.


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## WC53 (Dec 2, 2015)

MGdave said:


> As they say, it’s not the seat…
> It’s the @ss in it.
> the TFO professional 2 is inexpensive and most people find it easy to cast.
> For redfish in the marsh in south Louisiana, the 9 wt is hard to beat. It’s very durable, maybe not as fast as some of the high end rods today, but if you slow down the casting stroke and let it load it’s a rocket


When you need to make that 15-30 foot quick shot  I have gone back to fishing mine in the marsh. They have a great action and much more conducive to that than my long range “cannons”. Ymmv. Old age and moderate rods oh my!


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## OrFish (5 mo ago)

As I have improved, my rods got faster. Early on, slower rods helped to develop correct casting strokes.


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