# Next



## Brett

The Grass Slipper is 2 years old, with all the oysters she's  found
in the creeks and marshes here in NE Florida, I probably
should have named her Captain Crunch, Grinder or maybe Shell Shocked.










Been a good little skiff, still getting on the water 2 or 3 times a week,
problem is, I feel a bad case of "Next" coming on already.
I find myself sketching hulls on scratch paper at work
and thinking about what I'd do different, when out on the water.
Since it took a year last time I decided to build,
from research through practice builds to the actual build,
I figure it's about time to start the practice build(s) for this one.
It ought to keep me busy for the next 6 months,
until I finally decide exactly, what's going to be "Next." 

Here I go again... 

http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#

( clicking on the small images in the album, reloads them as large images )


----------



## jrod0785

Awesome man!!! I love these build threads!!! Cant wait to see more pics of the progress!!!!


----------



## firecat1981

Hold on here a minute Brett! You're not allowed to build another boat before me 

That is unless you're gonna give me the slipper to use until my new boats done 

Hey why don't we race? I have to finish the cooler first so that will take me a while more, but not too long.......ready?.....ok, and.....go!!!


----------



## Brett

You win FC...I consider that cooler to be an unsinkable lifeboat!   

Besides, this is just the practice build to see if the lines work.
Sketches on paper and computer assisted drafting programs
don't always look the same in the real world as the 3D renderings.
I'll be assembling, thinking, changing and reassembling multiple times.
Before the construction of the Slipper, I spent 6 months
trying out different layouts and hull shapes before making the decision.
I expect this one to be no different. Zip screws, duct tape,
cardboard and cheap lumber...they're wonderful things to play with.

                                          


http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## Swamp

Congrats! Looking forward to see the thought process in action.

Swamp


----------



## firecat1981

Well I know the cooler won't sink, but do you think it will run right with a 25hp?  ;D ;D

Ok back to your new design. I'm guessing no tunnel? what about sponsons since your making a v hull?


----------



## SClay115

A huge fan of the Slipper, can't wait to see what comes next!

Steve


----------



## Brett

No clue as to the final hull shape yet, FC, that's the reason for the half scale model.
I keep looking at the classics linked below and seeing what each builder did,
and figuring out why they used the shape and lines they settled on.

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1284069788

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1269902715

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1237311325

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1249732712

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1236464452

That's the best part of the practice builds...trying it out for myself.
I don't have to build the entire hull, just the shear, chines,
a couple of bulkheads/frames, bow and transom. Look at the lines,
widen it a touch here, narrower there, up a bit, down a hair,
no real plans at all...just a desire to build another hull....it's fun.
It's not like I really know what I'm doing, I'm not a trained professional builder.

I just have no fear of failure.    ;D


----------



## firecat1981

I see, hmm, I'm going for something like the willy roberts 14, just a little longer. The 1/6th models I made out of masonite worked really well for what I needed, but in truth I have such a clear picture in my head I don't need the model this time. Everything moves faster the second time so I bet you will be building by the end of next month.


----------



## Brett

> I bet you will be building by the end of next month.


Don't make that bet... 

I keep looking at the shear outline and changing it.
Haven't found the shape that satisfies me.
I take it apart to store in the evening, takes about a minute.
Next morning put it together again, then between honey-do's
look at it, sip my coffee, think about it, shift a spreader
walk around it, widen the transom distance, move it back...

This may take a lot longer than you'd think... 

I haven't found a shear outline that makes me happy yet,
close but not quite, and I still have a chine outline to work on too.
But at least I'm not doodling on scratch paper anymore.
Having a few pieces of lumber to play with seems to have solved that problem.

Good thing I'm not in this to make money!       ;D


----------



## oysterbreath

Dang-it Brett! Just when I get settled on BUYING a boat you go BUILD ONE which means that I'll start BACK wanting to build too. A few months back I was emailing back and forth with Matt from Jemcraft about a new design. I think he lost interest though so I stopped hassling him. It was a sweet lil design though. So what are you thinking about something wider huh? Still gonna do S&G? I thought long and hard about that cold molded Osprey design. I can't wait to see what you cook up!


----------



## Brett

Don't blame me...blame Nate!
I was doing fine with continuing my explorations up the ICW towards Jax,
then Nate finally stopped talking and started building.
I could almost smell the sawdust and the epoxy.

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1282368735

Got to jonesing so bad, I had to stop and pick up the lumber.
I can afford 30 bucks worth of materials. It'll keep me busy for while
until I finally find a hull shape that makes me want to build it.

I don't care for stitch and glue...
too many ways for alignments to shift.
I like drilling, gluing, clamping and screwing!

[smiley=1-whoops1.gif]


----------



## WhiteDog70810

My ears are burning.

"...look at it, sip my coffee, think about it, ...walk around it..."

Yeah, I can relate.  I look at mine a lot.  It is disturbing when I realize how much time I spend in that manner.  I wish I was thinking about my next steps, but honestly, I am just comfortable.  I am beginning to understand how motorheads can drink beer and stare at an old truck's engine under a shade tree without doing a dang thing.  Last weekend I had no real reason to take it off the frame.  I  wanted to turn it over and look at it, so I invented a reason.  

Are you going to build another super skinny boat or something a little less use specific.  You were talking about a strip built Willy Robertsish thing a while back.  My next boat will definitely be strip built.  I am already thinking about it.

Aren't the fish biting right now?  Shouldn't you be thinking about this on the water and calling it multi-tasking? 

Nate


----------



## firecat1981

> Yeah, I can relate. I look at mine a lot. It is disturbing when I realize how much time I spend in that manner.


You know I was just thinking that yesterday , I must spend atleast an hour a day looking at pictures and searching websites for material ideas and such. It's an addiction! Maybe we should form a support group, cause I know I've been thinking about my next boat since I finished the last one.



> Are you going to build another super skinny boat or something a little less use specific.


I've been wondering, since you are building more of a v-hull this time are you keeping the slipper for when you need to go super skinny?


----------



## Brett

Hi, my name is Brett, I'm a boat addict.
It's been 18 seconds since I last thought about a boat.





Not going to be a super skinny skiff this time.
I've spent 2 years harassing the poor fish that try to hide back in the marsh,
and I am finding myself more interested in a small runabout.
I live 30 minutes from the St. Johns River, that's a long stretch of water
that I've only begun to explore. It gets pretty choppy and the Slipper
is not set up for that. So I'm thinking along the lines of a 16 foot bay/flats boat.
To be honest though, it's never been about catching fish,
I prefer my surf rod when I need a few fillets for dinner.
I just like boats. I like thinking about 'em, talking about 'em, playing in 'em,
fixing 'em, modifying 'em and lately....designing and building 'em.
Strip built...maybe, carvel planked...that'd work,
skin over frame...always a possibility, lapstrake...not gonna happen!
Odds are though that it will be plywood, epoxy and fiberglass.
Still the least expensive way to build a one of a kind, lightweight, tough, durable hull.

If I do this right, the next owner of the Slipper will live nearby
and I'll have 2 boats to enjoy, but only one to maintain.

;D


----------



## Swamp

> Hi, my name is Brett, I'm a boat addict.
> It's been 18 seconds since I last thought about a boat.


Look at the bright side, building a boat every couple of years is a lot cheaper than therapy!  More enjoyable too.


----------



## Brett

> Look at the bright side, building a boat every couple of years is a lot cheaper than buying a new one



fixed it for you... 



http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## TomFL

> Look at the bright side, building a boat every couple of years is a lot cheaper than buying a new one *if you don't charge anything for your time*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fixed it for you...
> 
> 
> 
> http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#
Click to expand...

Fixed it for YOU Brett!!!!

Can't wait to follow the next build thread. Always enjoy your posts and pics, even if they're crappie at times


----------



## Brett

> Look at the bright side, building a boat every couple of years is a lot cheaper than buying a new one
> if you don't charge anything for your time


As I said earlier...It's a good thing I'm not in this to make money!
Besides, playing with the boat beats sitting in front of the TV, or computer.

                                         ;D


Speaking of crappie, Tom...
they were chasing topwater minnows this evening
all up and down the waterway in the local canals.
It's almost time for you to start posting crappie fishing reports again!


http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## Brett

This is too much like fun, I can try out any hull lines I want
and determine real quick if it's a dog or something worth taking a picture of for future reference.
Anyone thinking about building for the first time, ought to try the half scale model first.

                                              [smiley=happy.gif]

http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## copperhead

16' full size model....


----------



## Brett

;D  I deserved that!  ;D

I also did the Shi-poke, CudaCraft, Willy 14, Hewes
Maverick, FiberCraft, Mitchell, Dolphin super skiff,
Simmons sea skiff, Surf dory, Sidewinder, Sutphen...
Just slide the mid frame a bit, shift the chine and shear lines up or down.
Tighten or loosen the cross ties to match.
The wife thinks I'm losing it, to her they all look the same.
I've built over 30 boats in a single afternoon,
all in my head just by moving things around a couple inches.
                 Cheap entertainment.
Still haven't found the one I'm going to build yet.
I'm enjoying this too much.

                                     


http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## DSampiero

Well gentlemen, I would like to public offer Brett's wife(and Family) my sincerest apologies... I take the blame for all of this, here is why....

I am starting a new j.o.b. in December. When I got the good news I called up Brett and told him(once again) that I'll be buying the Slipper, hopefully as soon as June/July.... Well, now I see the repercussions of my actions.. ;D ;D


----------



## B.Lee

Ah, I was wondering what would become of the Grass Slipper. Keepin' it in the family, so to speak. Cool.

Like everyone else, I'm watching...and like what I see!

And it is good that the garage is cooling down, or did you plan it work out right on time?


----------



## oysterbreath

So it begins-pending sale!

Hey, by the way...doesn't that greyhound look little in that picture? It looks copperhead sized!


----------



## Brett

Ghost, the wife says apology accepted. The daughter says
she's not finished taking pictures in the marsh, you'll have to wait.

                                           :


Planning? Brian, you know me better than that.
Just like you...one morning I woke up and decided it was time to start.

                                            [smiley=happy.gif]



Oyster, check out the Penn Yan cartoppers in the off topic section.
There's your strip built round chines you've been looking for.

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1289917474


I'll just keep rearranging the lumber until the lines make me happy.

http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## oysterbreath

Thanks, I followed some of your links and ended up here:

http://stillbuildingboats.com/12-penn-yan/

Pretty nice but I'd prefer a planing hull.

Get those lines right Brett.
So, another question. do you think you'll put a platform on your upcomming build?


----------



## Brett

I have an opinion on poling platforms, allow me to expound and pontificate...
The purpose of the standard guides poling platform
is to put a set of knowledgeable eyes in a position to see the water ahead of the boat.
This particular requirement is caused by inexperienced clients
who have no clue what a fish looks like, where a fish is likely to be
or what to look for in the water that indicates the location of said fish.
Putting said inexperienced client in the bow of the boat
blocks off a relatively large percentage of the visible horizon
from the experienced eyes of said guide, if the guide is standing
at the same level as the said clueless client.
However, elevating said fount of piscatorial knowledge
to a height where he can see over said repository of ignorance,
allows the guide to direct the paying customer as to where to cast
that chunk of cut mullet or live shrimp, so as to experience the thrill
of actually catching a decent sized fish for which he has so generously paid for the privilege.
In a boat where you fish mostly alone, or with another experienced fisherman
then the eyes on board have no problem determining
the location of said aquatic denizens. and there is no need
to elevate any participant to a position of superior elevation
in order to locate or catch any of the subsurface residents.
Also, one of the first things I learned flats fishing,
was that keeping a low profile allows you to get closer to the targeted species.

I guess you can see that the answer to your question
regarding whether or not I'm going to install a poling or casting platform
is a quite emphatic "No."

                                           ;D


----------



## firecat1981

hmm I don't know Brett, that last one looks more like a row boat then a dory ;D

Hurry up and start, I was looking at plywood today, can't take it anymore!


----------



## Andrewp

"_Also, one of the first things I learned flats fishing,
was that keeping a low profile allows you to get closer to the targeted species. -- Brett_

Agree. Use of one is overated and in most boats under-utilized. Keeping quiet with a low profile is the best thing(s) you can be doing.

Now, do you think boat color has any bearing on fish spotting you?


----------



## Brett

> Do you think boat color has any bearing on fish spotting you?


I grew up in South Florida, and fished from hulls in an assortment of colors.
I can't remember any particular color hull that affected our catch rate.
Then again, fishing the reefs, every color you can think of is already there.
What does affect a fish's response to a nearby hull, is noise and visible motion.


http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## capt.doug

Ya know Brett, maybe something as simple as another strake on top of the original one, going from 1 or 2 inches to nothing back about half way to the stern would give you that pleasing shear line that is missing.... just a thought.


----------



## Brett

Thanks Captain, it's a very practical solution. I'll try it and see how it looks.
I might also rotate the tops of the shear and chine strakes outboard a few degrees
so that they arc up and in as they approach the stem.
Easily accomplished by cutting a few shims on the bandsaw.


----------



## DSampiero

Brett - Your poling plat form rant is one for the ages... [smiley=popcorn2.gif]


----------



## oysterbreath

One for the ages indeed! lol

I will admit to wanting a platform and will also admit that it will usually go unused. But when my mother and father come to town "said" individuals will require the special treatment that you so eloquently described.

Your whole dissertation brings up another point. There was one point of time in my boat search where I was considering a laker/ freight canoe as you noted before. My take on that was that I would add.....wait for it...oars! The caster would be slightly elevated but the human motor would be low and well UNDER the casters fly line instead of in its potential way. The big issue I had with that was oar noise! I have NEVER seen a pair of quite oars! IMHO poling the shallows in much quiter than oars. So the idea died!


----------



## Brett

I'm always happy to share my opinions,
       especially when asked to,
like you haven't figured that out by now...

                            


I like oars Oyster. There is a way to make them quiet.
As a kid, I spent hours each weekend rowing/fishing
around the spoil islands at Dinner Key in Coconut Grove.
The old wood hull I was allowed to use had leather sleeves
on the oars and trapped ring locks. There was none of the usual
bump and klunk associated with open oarlocks.
I could sneak right up on the fish along the shoreline.
The setup looked like this, worked great.











http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## mark_gardner

hey!! ive got a poling platform AND i fish from the bow  what are you trying to say? :-?................ ;D


----------



## Brett

Sometimes you feel like a nut
sometimes you don't...

[smiley=1-biggrin.gif]


----------



## Brett

Actually, poling platforms have their uses...

Chair, cleaning table, place to set your beer drink when reeling in a fish
bait rigging station, tackle sorting bench, mounting point for the stern light
rod holder mount, engine cowl UV protection, 1.5 meter diving platform (on hot days)
cooking area, lunch counter, leaning post, cleat, ballast...

                                   :


----------



## firecat1981

Thanks Brett, your rationale has just killed my dream of building a nice curved polyurethaned wood poling platform


----------



## Brett

Now, now FC...I was simply expressing my opinion.
Which we all know, are like rectums...everyone has one.
I just happen to have had time to think about this one,
for more more than 40 years. It's been aged, can you tell?

                                      ;D

Seriously, it's your boat, put on it whatever makes you happy.
I just happen to feel, that in my case, a poling platform
is like a rear spoiler on a Ford Festiva, looks interesting,
but is basically useless for it's intended purpose.


----------



## Andrewp

I never put it together, but that's exactly what a poling platform looks like on a boat -- a rear spoiler!!

Brett, do you plan on electric motor, poling (not from platform!), double-paddling, or oaring this Next boat?


----------



## Brett

Can't answer that question yet.
Still haven't figured out what this hull is going to look like.
I spent an hour this afternoon changing things around.
Shattered a chine mount block when I twisted it just a hair too much.
Couple minutes on the band saw and a new one was ready to replace it.
Can't make lumber go past a certain point without paying the price.
So it was a useful afternoon, learned how far I could push it before it breaks.


----------



## mark_gardner

dont need trim tabs, the "spoiler" gives me plenty of lift  ;D


----------



## Brett

Oops, forgot another use for the platform, SBC...umbrella holder!


----------



## mark_gardner

LOL... if it doesnt serve a useful purpose on my boat it's gotta go


----------



## Brett

If I was doing this for a living, I'd be going broke fast.
You wouldn't believe the amount of time spent adjusting the lines.
Good thing it's only a hobby that keeps me busy in my spare time.
It's interesting to see how much flex luan has in it.
But it'll only go so far, then the clamps start to pop loose.












http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## capt.doug

I know you don't want to cut up a bunch of ply till you get the shape how you want it, but the "tail" of plywood hanging out past the bow is fighting you.  When you trim it to fit I'll bet it will follow that chine log alot easier.  Or..., you could change the bias of the ply at that 2/3 point where it starts going bad on you, cutting some thinner strips and running diagonally or somewhat parallel to the stem.  Of course then you have all those edge joints to deal with, but the ply bends easier that way.  More work, but I don't mind work, I could watch somebody else work all day..... ;D  
So keep workin' on it Brett


----------



## Brett

I was thinking of running a set of kerfs parallel with the keel in the forward third.
I've never tried that, and since this is a learning experience, I'll try it your way too.
I've got another 8'x1'3" section of luan to make mistakes with.

                                  [smiley=happy.gif]

                                        
Thanks for the tip Captain.
This ain't work, this is playin' with power tools!


----------



## iFly

Brett, looking through your build thread has giving me some great ideas. Based on history, it is highly likely that I won't do anything useful with any of this inspiration but... at least I'm doing *something* with my mind.  

You keep doing and I'll keep looking.


----------



## Brett

iFly, as you can see, it's not that I really know what I'm doing.
There are no plans, no set dimensions, other than less than 16 feet long,
about 20 inches from keel to shear, and no more than 6 feet wide.
All I'm doing is rearranging the lumber. This is something anyone can do.
If I break a piece or cut something incorrectly, we're not talking
any great expense. A single sheet of luan and some pine strips.
We're talking cheap entertainment here, that'll lead up to my next hull.
Figuring out the bends and cuts is half the fun.
Getting the pieces to stay in place is the other half.

http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## capt.doug

The blocks along the keelson seemed to work pretty good, and with no joints from doing it like I suggested. I like your way better. How are you going to secure the sides and bottom to each other prior to removing all the screws? I'm guessing you will leave the chine logs in, or are they only to get the shape you want and then remove them prior to glassing the interior?


----------



## Brett

I tried a small panel as you suggested and realized that the curve
wasn't that difficult to make, when there were adequate fasteners.
After seeing how it could be done, it was easy enough to apply
the same bend to the longer panel. When it gets to a full size hull
I'll probably duplicate the framing technique to create the full size  panels.
Instead of blocks there will be the crash and cockpit bulkheads
to attach to. I'm thinking a chine log on the exterior of the hull
to become a sprayrail which is needed on a vee hull runabout.
As I said, this is design as I build and learn what needs to be done.
Half scale model makes for a great teaching tool.

http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## oysterbreath

There ya' go...
Those lines are looking pretty darn good now!


----------



## Brett

Since I'm building without any plans, the entry worked out pretty good.
Letting the luan sit overnight in the stressed position with clamps and nylon cord
lets the wood relax into the curve so it doesn't fight as much.
After 2 nights it wasn't difficult to get the panel to stay where I wanted it.
After tracing and cutting it lays in place with minimal effort.
Not bad for an amateur.  Getting the underhull right
means that the side panels can be any shear I want.
Any type of hull from a straight shear flats skiff to a high bow panga.
A trip to the store is needed for another panel of luan.
Lots of shapes to try out when it comes to sides.

                                    

With the simple curves that's on there now, it'd be an easy strip build.

                                     

http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## capt.doug

Watching your photo album with interest Brett, really turning out nice, and sorry about all that editing work you went through on my account. I guess some of those terms stuck in my head from reading Chapelle and L. Francis Herreshoff in my younger days. (great reading for reference about how it was done in the old days) 
Now to my question, you did all the math concerning pitch and bow rise, etc., how would all your figures hold up if you do indeed go with sponsons out past the transom? I never ran a boat with true sponsons, (one had little live well boxes hanging on the transom, but I don't think they really did much as far as flotation or trim) I like the idea, basically making the hull as long as the extension of the outboard, more boat, no more overall length. Just wondering if you have experience with hulls like that.


----------



## Brett

Don't think of it as editing, think of it as writing a new word 50 times.
I'll never forget the difference between keel and keelson again.

                                           

With the chine running at a 5 degree angle and continuing onto the sponson,
the only difference is an additional 40 to 60 lbs of buoyancy.
Just enough to compensate for the added weight of power trim and tilt.
It does open up some space inside the hull, as the sponsons
become the foam filled buoyancy chambers required by USCG regs.

                                        

On a 16 foot hull, sponsons as small as these don't affect the hull as much
as the oversized floatation pods used on the aluminum marsh runners.
Just something else to play with when building.










http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## jrod0785

Brett, I am really liking where you are going with this. I think you got the lines down. I cant wait till your start the actual boat. To me, it kind of has the lines of the Copperhead with a hint of ECC style. Seems like you have done your homework. Please keep the pics coming!!!


----------



## Brett

Here ya' go PCF, another pic. After 3 days of pacing back and forth,
I made a decision and dropped the rear chine height.
This created a little vertical curve along the shear,
and gave me room to play with the chine lines some more.
I like these lines better than my last try, but my guess is it'll change again.
Firecat will have his built by the time I decide what the final hull will look like.

                                          ;D










http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## firecat1981

I'll have mine done by summer hopefully, cooler will be painted soon!


----------



## JaxLaxFish

looks good! i checked out the build process of the slipper and had fun seeing the whole process. what are you shooting for draft wise? or is this really your concern on this build?


----------



## Brett

I did some calculations based on the half scale model's dimensions.
With 1100 lbs of load (including hull weight) the Next should draft right at 7 inches.
In comparison, the Slipper draws 4 inches with a 600 lb load
with a 1000 lb load, Slipper would need 7 inches to float.
Slipper is a much narrower hull and is used with a minimum of gear aboard.
Next is going to be a river runner, more horsepower, more fuel capacity.
Draft won't be a primary design parameter, as it was when I built the Slipper. 










http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## capt.doug

Check this link out, these fellas are NOT amateurs like I am and you "claim" to be.  They built a Lafitte Skiff using basically the same method you did, setting up the chines and building the boat to the "lines of the chines".  Oh, and they are using hundreds of years old "sinker" cypress instead of plywood.
Google this:
www.southernpaddler.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5454


----------



## DuckNut

Sweeeeeet...the first build with hydrofoiles!!!


----------



## Brett

"Claim"? There's no doubt I'm an amateur.
You ought to see the snake cut I make using a jigsaw.
Good thing the block plane was invented to clean up the edge.

;D

Hydrofoils? :-?

Oh, the pvc supports...I wanted to see the underside of the hull
without crates underneath or having to invert an image.
Just happened to be available at the time.



Still not happy with the lines. Looks too bulky for a runabout.
I'll probably chop the lines to something like this...










http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## cutrunner

lol brett dont touch it it looks great


----------



## Brett

Nope CR, ain't gonna happen. At this stage of the game
it's all about trying out the possibilities. Just like when I was
practicing for the Slipper, I'll go through several sheets
of luan to see if something looks better or works better.
There were over 40 different configurations I tried
before settling on the shape that became the Slipper.
Some were butt ugly. Others were close, but didn't feel right.
Same thing is happening now. I don't take pics of all the shapes
that I've tried so far. Just enough to show the stages 
that the model is going through. I'm using leftover pieces
of luan from the Slipper build, so it's not really costing me
anything but time. Plus it's removing a lot of lumber
from my garage. Make a mistake, the chunks go out to
the firepit for an evening burn. Since I know the dimensions
of everything I've built so far, and have pictures, it's easy
to duplicate a previous panel if I end up with a shape that's not right.
The cost is a few sheets of luan, that just means I'll be drinking
water with lunch for a few weeks to offset the expense.

                                           

The luan panel being worked with at the moment, was a test piece,
that came from figuring out how to build a scarf joint for the Slipper.
You can see the epoxied area in the panel. Not a particularly good scarf,
but it did let me learn the correct method of doing it.

                                   [smiley=happy.gif]


----------



## Andrewp

> .......
> The luan panel being worked with at the moment, was a test piece,
> that came from figuring out how to build a scarf joint for the Slipper.
> You can see the epoxied area in the panel. Not a particularly good scarf,
> but it did let me learn the correct method of doing it.
> 
> [smiley=happy.gif]


Brett, have you tried a puzzle-cut for the luan pieces (sides) you are cutting/glueing together?  I think you can make one very simply and quickly (without any jigs, etc.).  I haven't actually done it yet with real wood (did it with balsa) but I thought it might be quicker to do than a traditional scarph.  What I'm not sure is if a puzzle-cut would be as strong .........  Wondering if anyone else has tried that kind of cut ..... 

Sorry Brett, not meaning to hi-jack thread into a builder's debate on scarf techniques .....   

Please continue with your build -- I like how you are working the ply panels to get your shape.  Any idea if you could get these same shapes with 3/8" ply?

AP


----------



## firecat1981

> Any idea if you could get these same shapes with 3/8" ply?


He will have to work some major magic to do it, but I'm sure it can be done somehow. I tried building my old boat out of 3/8" and couldn't get it to make the compound cuves so I switched to luan.


----------



## Brett

Not a derail AP, I like builder's debates... 

I thought about a puzzle cut after reading about it on a kayak forum.
After seeing the price, I wasn't interested in paying for the dovetail jig.
The sad truth is, I've got very little skill with a router.

                                     :-[

But with an electric planer and some practice,
I got pretty good at making a scarf joint.
Not difficult at all and makes for a strong joint.
Lots of surface area for the epoxy to bond to
and no bumps to have to fair out later.

                                     










You can flex any plywood with cargo straps, water and time.
The trick I've found is to find the curve that the plywood "likes"
instead of forcing it. Seems to make for better hull lines.
Next is going to be 1/4 inch plywood with 6 ounce tooling cloth on both sides.
Weighs less than 3/8 inch ply and stronger by far.
I've got test pieces from the Slipper, it's amazing how rigid they are.
Add in the curved plywood on the hull and I don't think
Next is going to have a whole lot of flex.


----------



## Andrewp

Brett: I don't own a router or a planer, and so I had always ended up with butt-joints with either tape or blocks over the joints. But I have been intrigued with the idea of puzzle-cuts since this is how kit-builders are sending their long boat parts these days ...... 

So as to not de-rail your thread, I'll post some pictures over on my build-thread of the technique I have come up with for making (what I hope will be) perfect fitting puzzle cuts free-hand, with no templates, jigs, etc, using a jig-saw. You can tell me what you think there ....

Continue on ............


----------



## Brett

Me and a jigsaw making a puzzle joint?

[smiley=1-laugh.gif]

I have trouble cutting a straight line using a jigsaw,
and that's when I'm using a straight edge cutting guide.

Kit boats are cut out by a Computer Numerical Control (CNC) machine.
Those plywood joints are accurate to a few hundredths of an inch.
No way I could duplicate that accuracy in my garage.


----------



## capt.doug

Actually Brett, if you cut lines as crooked as you say, all ya gotta do is lay the two pieces to be joined together with an overlap, cut your "normal" straight line, and bingo, puzzle joint.... ;D  Kinda like how they do with carpet, cut 'em both at once.


----------



## Brett

;D  direct hit Captain, straight to the funny bone  ;D

Only trouble I see with the technique is caused by the width of the saw blade.
That gap caused by the sawcut will add slop to the joint when using the overlay and cut method.
It'll leave some play in the puzzle joints, to be filled with thickened epoxy.
Going to have to be careful to keep the panel edges aligned.

AP, there's multiple ways to make a scarf joint.
The fastest way I've seen was done using a circular saw on the end of a work bench.
It's accomplished using a guide/rest attached to the end of the bench.
Perfect scarf cut in a matter of a minute or so.

http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/stitchglue/plyshophtm/scarfjig2.htm


----------



## Andrewp

Capt. Cobb hit right on the method I had come up with on my own (I had not found it anywhere on the 'net, but I'm sure it's there somewhere). I'm going to do a couple puzzle joint cuts this weekend and take some pics -- we'll see how it comes out. I think the joint will actually be pretty snug; I don't think the blade will cause any slop. 

What I don't know is how large to make the puzzle cut itself. The ones I've seen before look like an series of oxbows that a river might make. I understand that really what you are trying to do is increase the surface area of the joint for the glue to make contact with .....

If I have time, I'll do a couple of cuts and glues, and then will test the joint until it breaks, and see if it breaks along the joint cuts (hopefully not) .....

Brett, thanks for the link -- I still have to do traditional scarfs because I don't think I can do puzzle cuts on 2" lumber! ;D


----------



## Brett

Thinking about the puzzle joint, this is my worry.
Using the overlap and cut method with a jigsaw,
the blade produces a 1/8 inch wide kerf (gap)
between the sides of the cut. After cutting and
interlocking the two panels, that 1/8 inch gap
can create a 1/4 inch gap if the panels are twisted or
misaligned one way or another. I think that's the
reason most panels are cut using a dovetail jig
or CNC machine, in order to minimize the amount
of play between the two panels.

I had to draw it up to see how it would work... 

Just looking at all the twists and turns, then the glue work needed,
I think I'll stick with a basic scarf joint...


----------



## Swamp

Brett I don't think the worst case scenario of a 1/4" gap is a problem using thickened epoxy as the adhesive.  The designers at Bateau are even perpetually trying to get people to leave enough of a gap between pieces.  I'm sure you have seen those posts.  The thing is, I don't see much of an advantage to NOT using a scarf joint if you feel comfortable with it (which you obviously are).  I can certainly see a designer/kit MFG preferring to set a builder of unknown wood working skill up to use a butt or puzzle joint.  A butt joint is real easy to do, but the reinforcing block sticks out on the inside, and the puzzle joint if designed so the panel A can only be glued to panel B makes it idiot proof (err, resistant!) by using a different pattern at each joint.  You can even set it up that the panels have to have the proper faces matching by making the "puzzle" asymmetrical.  You won't get more gluing surface out of either compared to a proper scarf, in fact if you make angle small enough you can really get a lot of surface area.  You would risk a pretty wide stiff area by doing that though.  You would only get more glue surface if it was a true dovetail joint. I would stick with the scarf joint in areas that are going to "show" and where I was concerned about glue surface area, and put butt joints every where else just for ease of use.  Then again, I'm anal enough that I could easily see myself cutting and chiseling blind dovetails by hand with my 19th century hand tools wherever wood touches wood on a boat that I designed from the ground up.  But I'm a masochist as a rule :


----------



## oysterbreath

Hey, for those of you who like tools; West system has a scarf tool called the 875 Scarffer. It attaches to a circular saw. Pretty neat! I have NO CLUE how much they cost thought....


----------



## oysterbreath

Found a review:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/reviews/scarffer/index.cfm


----------



## Brett

When it comes time, I may have to build a scarfing jig
just to see how effective it is. 7 degree blade angle looks to be
the important part of the process, to obtain the 8:1 bevel.
On my to do list...

                                               


After a few more tries with saw and block plane, she's almost to the shape I want.
Down to changing the degree of curve a little at a time along the chine and shear.
The rest of the shaping will be completed with block plane and surform.

This is what she looks like now...











This is what she looked like before...










http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## DuckNut

I like it much better. Doesn't look so boxy/clunky. Ah, the subtle lessons of Roman engineering.


----------



## jrod0785

Everytime I see it, I think it looks perfect. But then you do your adjusting and make it look better than before. You got some mad skills man!


----------



## cutrunner

ok now leave it lol


----------



## Brett

PCF, there are no mad skills involved. You can see exactly what I did.
Cheap lumber, zip screws, basic wood working tools and no fear of failure.
I just kept moving things and trying out any idea I wanted.
No plans, only a maximum length, width and height.
What I've done can be accomplished by anyone with time and patience.

DN...Roman engineering? More like Phoenician...they were the boat builders.   ;D

CR...No!   

After another cup of coffee, and looking at it some more
the arrows indicate areas that still need to be worked on.
Those locations interfere with my sense of proportion.


----------



## firecat1981

You keep cutting it down and all you'll be left with is only of them texas scooters


----------



## Andrewp

Wait, wait, the shape is starting to remind me of a boat I've seen somewhere before ................ yes, that's it!!!!!!

It's the Glass Slipper with a V !!! ;D


----------



## Brett

AP, this is the Glass Slipper with a vee, she's a John Atkin design...

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/GlassSlipper.html


----------



## Brett

And this is the Grass Slipper, the flat bottom marsh skiff...


----------



## Andrewp

Damn, tried to make a funny and I typo'd it .....  Nice link to the Atkin design -- an inboard!! 

Can you give some measurements of the sides now that they are close(r) to your liking? And do you think you will play with the side angles to increase/decrease width at the gunnel?


----------



## Brett

I'm happy with the side angles.  

Vertical dimensions if full sized would be:

2 inches keel to chine at sides of transom
18 inches keel to shear at the sides of the transom
20 inches keel to top of transom at centerline
22 inches keel to top of bow

Widths:

60 inches across the bottom of transom
66 inches across the top of transom
68 inches wide at midship ( no rubrail yet )

182 inches length overall

http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## jrod0785

How much longer are we going to have to wait till you start the "real" build???? I am looking forward to seeing it!


----------



## anytide

ya !!, wtf -Mr.D we are waiting for the true "next"  
-anytide


----------



## Brett

You know the old saying guys...
Haste makes waste...I'm in no rush,
besides, there's no room in the garage yet.
Plus there's still lots of things to figure out first.
Like how much curve is needed to make a deck rigid
and what's the correct spacing for stringers?
Solve the problems at half scale and full scale goes smoothly.

Maybe...


----------



## oysterbreath

> I'm happy with the side angles.
> 
> Vertical dimensions if full sized would be:
> 
> 2 inches keel to chine at sides of transom
> 18 inches keel to shear at the sides of the transom
> 20 inches keel to top of transom at centerline
> 22 inches keel to top of bow
> 
> Widths:
> 
> 60 inches across the bottom of transom
> 66 inches across the top of transom
> 68 inches wide at midship ( no rubrail yet )
> 
> 182 inches length overall
> 
> http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next



Hmmmm, you know I bought the Osprey 18 plans right? I've been looking long and hard at them. Oddly enough, a 16 foot version of the osprey shares nearly the same primary dimensions as what you've written here for your boat. Infact, I tapped off both versions of the Osprey on my dinning room floor. Once I "mayflower" the garage from my wife...it is on! I'm also considering skipping ply and going with paulownia strip just like the Bowdidge's do it!
Anyway, so what about power? You gonna forgo that 9.8 and get a 25hp? Those numbers you wrote add up to 25hp if you ask me. Also, are you considering traditional taco style rub rails?


----------



## Brett

No clue on the rubrail at this time, although I like how Nate's looks.
Hadn't really thought of the outboard hp yet...

lets see here, Safe Powering section...

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/education_safety/safety/boatwater/backyardboatbuilders.pdf

Alright convert 15' 2" to decimal feet, that's 15.17' length
then 5' 6" is 5.50' width at the transom

to get the table factor multiply length by transom width

15.17 x 5.50 = 83.435 

which is above the limits of the table, only goes to 52

So using the secondary calculation

a vee hull with a 20 inch tall transom multiply the factor by 2 and subtract 90

83.435 x 2 = 166.87

166.87 - 90 = 56.87 

and round up to the nearest 5 hp which is 60 hp for a remote steer.

                                          

For a tiller or a shorter transom
multiply the original factor by 0.8, subtract 25 then

83.435 x 0.8 = 66.748

66.748 - 25 = 41.748

rounded up to the nearest 5 hp means 45 hp for a tiller steer.

                                     

300 lb hull with a 60? Jumpin' crappity-smack-tard!
I may have to change the name from "Next" to "Skippy".

                                     ;D


----------



## Charlie

If the coast guard says it safe, it must be safe  

Loving this topic. Can't wait to see the actual build post!!!


----------



## iFly

> ...Hadn't really thought of the outboard hp yet...


I find that interesting. Especially with a "home build". I would think that the cost of building a _microskiff_ is probably weighted towards the cost of the motor. Building a boat and finding that it takes a 40 instead of a 20 to get to where you fish would really wreck most people's boat budget. People who have budgets.  

No real science here. I've been thinking of building something and always seem to start with the cost of the motor and then try to imagine the boat that would give the best performance for those (very expensive) horse powers. Like, what's the best boat for a 9hp. Or what's the best boat for a 20hp. After all, I don't have the ability to "home build" a 20hp marine motor.  

I'm probably taking a simple sentence and making more out of it?


----------



## Brett

I came up with some weight to horsepower ratio's
on the different boats I've owned, and use them to
decide what to hang on a transom.
If I feel the need for speed, I use 1 hp to push 20 lbs of load.
If I want a cruising hull then the ratio is 1 hp to push 30 lbs of load.
And if I want a slow boat that just eases along at about 18 mph
then I go for 1 hp to push 40 lbs of load.
So figuring 400 lbs of people, 200 lbs of outboard
300 lbs of hull, and 100 lbs of gear gives 1000 lbs of load.
So a 25 would be a slow boat, 35 hp would be a cruiser
and a 50 would rattle your kidneys running down the St. Johns.


----------



## iFly

> ...35 hp would be a cruiser
> and a 50 would rattle your kidneys running down the St. Johns.


Would we still be talking about a _microskiff_?


----------



## iFly

Brett, because you have NO motor budget, I think this could be a good fit for your design, so far.  

Are you planning to flyfish or "run and gun"?







]


----------



## Brett

iFly, you're going at this the wrong way...
Don't think of the outboard as a major expense,
think of the build as saving the cost of a brand new production hull,
which will end up being spent on a brand new outboard.

                                   [smiley=happy.gif]

          
The St. Johns River is over 310 miles long, and I hope to explore all of it.
I really don't think a 9.9 hp outboard is the best way to accomplish that.

btw, Yes, it would still qualify as a micro. It's a model less than 8 feet long.
At full scale it's 15' 2" long and a total hull weight of 300 lbs, still qualifies.

Maybe twin 20 hp outboards, I like redundancy.

                                    

Run and Gun? Only if I go to the Keys and head offshore.


----------



## iFly

> iFly, you're going at this the wrong way...
> Don't think of the outboard as a major expense,
> *think of the build as saving the cost of a brand new production hull*, which will end up being spent on a brand new outboard.
> 
> [smiley=happy.gif]...


What's the joke about the wife coming home with a car full of shopping bags from very expensive stores and saying, "look at all the money I *saved* you. It was all on sale."  ;D


----------



## Brett

You forgot to add the final justifying comment...

"But I had a coupon"     


Had the model on the tailgate of my truck between rain squalls,
fits real easy in the back of the truck, too easy.
If built to about 12 feet in length with everything scaled to fit
she'd make a neat little pond hopper, probably weigh about 125 lbs.
Hang the 9.9 on that...1 man runabout

Call it the "Bed Wetter" [smiley=happy.gif]


----------



## DSampiero

Brett:
Can you find counter rotating 20hp 4-strokes?

Because that would be the Bees-knees... 

_Side-note:_
Also, I really get a kick out of people who think Brett builds boats for fishing.. He build's 'em for exploring and because he loves to see what he's capable of building.. Fishing is just a past time between boat builds and new water highlighted off of his maps(indicating explored territory). So don't think he'll build the boat you dream of fishing from, think "he'll build the boat he dreams..." Because he has before and this next one is going to have us all gawking. ;D


----------



## noeettica

Pretty Cool Stuff !

I'm sure a foot guru can make the counter rotating thing happen ...

but then there is trying to find a prop that Does not cost more than the motor ...


----------



## Brett

Counter rotating 20's...now that's funny!
The smallest hp lower unit I remember designed for counter rotation
was for a mercury 70 hp outboard. But I think that was because
the same lower unit was used on the 70, 90, 115. and 125.
The reason being there's just not enough blade surface on smaller props
causing steering torque to justify the need.
That's what the steering tab is for under the cavitation plate.
Twin 20's would cost about 6000 dollars, but a single 40 will cost about 4500 bucks.
I still have a 5 hp longshaft kicker, so the single 40 is my best bet.
Hang the kicker alongside as a get home engine.
It'll push a 16 footer as fast as Seatow can pull it.
A 40 4 stroke will have enough oomph to rattle your teeth in a chop.


----------



## iFly

> _Side-note:_
> Also, *I really get a kick out of people who think Brett builds boats for fishing*..


I don't think this guy is fishing.


----------



## Andrewp

> I came up with some weight to horsepower ratio's
> on the different boats I've owned, and use them to
> decide what to hang on a transom.
> If I feel the need for speed, I use 1 hp to push 20 lbs of load.
> If I want a cruising hull then the ratio is 1 hp to push 30 lbs of load.
> And if I want a slow boat that just eases along at about 18 mph
> then I go for 1 hp to push 40 lbs of load.
> So figuring 400 lbs of people, 200 lbs of outboard
> 300 lbs of hull, and 100 lbs of gear gives 1000 lbs of load.
> So a 25 would be a slow boat, 35 hp would be a cruiser
> and a 50 would rattle your kidneys running down the St. Johns.



Brett, thanks so much for posting that.  I've printed it out so I can remind myself when I start looking at boats and guess what kind of HP might be necessary to push them at different speeds.

So .......  My 13' should weigh around 100 lbs.  Me and gear, another 250.  I planned on a 5hp motor.  Guess speed will be around .....  12-14 mph, sound right?


----------



## firecat1981

probabaly not far off, but remember there is more then just weight to consider. AP a factor that might come into play on your boat is the very limited planing surface. But I think 5hp would be more then enough, maybe even too much being only 36 inches wide.


----------



## Brett

If I can pull 12 out of the Slipper running a 5 hp 4 stroke
getting 14 plus from yours wouldn't surprise me. Especially if you run a 2 stroke.
Btw, in 4 strokes the 4, 5, and 6 offered by Merc-Hat-San are the same engines, just different carbs.

If you are getting one of those,
get the 6 with a 9x9 prop, no tweaking needed... 

The short shaft 6 Merc-Hat-San weighs 55 lbs
which brings your total hull load to 400 plus lbs.
At 5000 rpm and with a 2.15 gear ratio
the prop shaft rpm's would be 2325.
Using the 9x9 prop gives a theoretical top speed of...

9/12 = 0.75 feet x 2325 = 1743 feet per minute
1743 x 60 minutes = 104625 feet per hour
104625/5280 = 19.81 mph.

Throw in a 20% reduction for slippage and friction
results in an estimated top speed of about 16 mph.


----------



## oysterbreath

Hey Brett, ever seen one of these:
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/tools/scarfer/index.htm

Looks like something that someone could build at home...


----------



## Brett

Interesting setup, but I like my inexpensive handheld electric planer better.
Set the plywood at the end of the bench so the guide runs along the end,
and set a 1/4 inch spacer 3-1/2 inches back from the edge.
Couple of minutes and I end up with a perfect scarf cut.










I plan to try the circular saw method to see if it compares to the electric planer
for ease of cut and the finish of the scarf surface.

Looked up your lumber reference, never heard of paulownia before.

http://www.paulowniasupply.com/paulownia_lumber_characteristics.htm


----------



## Andrewp

I'm not sure where OB is going with this Paulownia wood thing ..... either he's gonna import the wood from Austrialia in order to have the most expensive strip-built skiff ever, or, more likely, he'll plant Paulownia saplings and wait for them to grow into full-sized trees while he figures out which plans he will ultimately build ........ 

Just havin' fun withcha, Oyster!! ;D

So Brett, if you have the outside lines you like, what's next on the agenda to play around with -- inside layout? Braces? Decking options?


----------



## cutrunner

If a company(mercury,yamaha,omc) doesnt make a counter rotating gearcase there is no way to get one, or convert a standard to counter. But... The lower units on the little race motors(15 evinrude, 25xsmerc) are counter rotating but... They are 1.1 gear ratio, so to try to match props with 2 highly different gear ratio gearcases would be a challenge. Bretts new boat would be sweet with a 44xs merc with a 15in mid and a low water picup and nosecone, lol hye, you said you wanted to explore over 300 miles... :


----------



## Brett

Day-ummm CR...you're into performance eh? 

Hanging one of these on a 300 lb plywood hull,
and well, I could join the APBA and maybe compete.
If I survived the test runs...

[smiley=carcrash.gif]











AP, I'm still adjusting the sides.
No pics added because the changes are so gradual.
1/8 inch here, 3/16ths inch there, grab a cup of coffee
run a piece of sandpaper along the edge, think about it.
It's getting there, slowly. Next to do is deck curves.
Have to test the amount of curve needed to make 1/4 inch plywood
rigid under 200 lbs of load. That'll determine final deck shape and framing layout.
Slipper was overbuilt using 1/2 inch and 3/8 inch plywood for the sole and decks.
I'm making an effort to keep hull weight down and still maintain strength.
Learning monocoque construction from the web is enjoyable.

Lots of reading to do on these cold nights.


----------



## cutrunner

Lol you could say i dabble... I think you would be ok with that motor, a 550 pound allison xr2002 hull runs a 280 merc just fine so a 300 pound "next" with a 44xs(44 is the cubic inches not the horsepower, i believe theyre upwards of mid 50's hp)would b a sweet combo, its also a light motor. But hull design and many other things come into play.. Oh sorry im typing out loud, dont mind me


----------



## Andrewp

> .....
> AP, I'm still adjusting the sides.
> No pics added because the changes are so gradual.
> 1/8 inch here, 3/16ths inch there, grab a cup of coffee
> run a piece of sandpaper along the edge, think about it.
> It's getting there, slowly. Next to do is deck curves.
> Have to test the amount of curve needed to make 1/4 inch plywood
> rigid under 200 lbs of load. That'll determine final deck shape and framing layout.
> Slipper was overbuilt using 1/2 inch and 3/8 inch plywood for the sole and decks.
> I'm making an effort to keep hull weight down and still maintain strength.
> Learning monocoque construction from the web is enjoyable.
> 
> Lots of reading to do on these cold nights.



Brett, have you seen/read this book before? -- might offer some insights:  http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Boat-Strength-Builders-Designers/dp/0070231591#_

I have one of Gerr's other books ("The Nature of Boats"); very intertaining read on lots of different issues with how a boat is designed and used .....


----------



## Brett

I no longer buy reference books, as most are viewable on line.
I read Gerr during a search for "scantling rules" and found most of his text on line,
either as quotes or wholesale excerpts on the subject.
The best part of this model has been the hands on testing and breaking of things,
after getting information off the web and trying it out.

I learn more from screw-ups than getting it right the first time... 

http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## oysterbreath

> I'm not sure where OB is going with this Paulownia wood thing ..... either he's gonna import the wood from Austrialia in order to have the most expensive strip-built skiff ever, or, more likely, he'll plant Paulownia saplings and wait for them to grow into full-sized trees while he figures out which plans he will ultimately build ........
> 
> Just havin' fun withcha, Oyster!!     ;D
> 
> So Brett, if you have the outside lines you like, what's next on the agenda to play around with -- inside layout?  Braces?  Decking options?



Ahhhhhh you dirty scallywag! Hit me when I'm away will ya? I see how you gonna play, next time you ask me to take a picture of a trophy tarpon I'll make sure my lens is wet and mess up the pic! Oh nevermind...I already did that didn't I? lol

Well actually there are some growers here in the states too. I can get enough paulownia to build the hull for only $600. The stuff is a bit better than cedar. There is a distributor in SC. Yo, but I also found out that Home Depo sells cedar strips too. They are 1/4" x 1 1/2" x 8'-0" planed 3 sides. They sell them under the name cedar lattis strips. $400 get me enough to build the hull. I would have to hand pick thought. The quality varies. Oh, and before y'all start talking about strip built...this is not the pretty bead and cove American style strip building. This is work boat stuff! the technique is a good alternative to cold molding.

And you are right AP.....I STILL don't know what the frack I'm going to build! My focus is on a highly modified Osprey right now. A 16 foot strip built version. I'm reworking structure right now but having a hard time with the modified Harpin. I need to rebuild my computer and load up autocad so I can ghraphically work it out. I'm using Ubuntu right now and don't have any CAD software for it...


P.S. AP, you pick on me again and I'll come over to your house and smear banana on your fiberglass! See how THAT takes resin! lol just kidding...


----------



## Brett

I looked at the cedar lattice at HD.
I'd want to run it through a planer before using it.
Cut the knots out and scarf sections together.
Be real easy to set up a jig for cutting and gluing.
Thought about using it like a veneer over plywood.
You could put it together like a parquet floor.

Playing with the model and these red stains started showing up.
Didn't feel anything anywhere.
Started looking around to see where they were coming from.
I've reached that age where it's beginning to take a real injury to get my attention.
Punctures and slices to the hands are just part of the entertainment.

                                [smiley=fun_84.gif]










http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## oysterbreath

Yeah, I thought about that too brett but then the boat would be too pretty to fish! Well, I just did some more calculations and it's just not economical to use the strips on the Osprey. It would have been more fun than cold molding but I can do the molding quit a bit cheaper! And not have to worry about a few key alterations. Get this, the frames, as designed, are 3/4" Douglas fir. I THOUGHT it would be more economical to go with 3/4" XL Fir or Hydroteck....WRONG! Fir boards, as designed, are more economical! Well now I'm thinking, instead of butt jointing the shear and bottom of the frame (made from different boards) I'm going to use cross lapped joints. Do ya' think it will be worth it? I think I might have to pick up a few more tools too. An electric planer perhaps! Any advice?

Anyway, bro stop painting your boards that awful crimson tide red! ;-)

So are you about ready to go full size yet?


----------



## Brett

Cross lap joints? Sounds like it's time for a table saw with a stacked dado.
That's going to be a lot of material to remove.
When it comes to tools, if I find that I don't have the right one in my collection,
then it's time to make a trip to the hardware store to get the one I need.
Always use the right tool for the job, makes it easier, faster and safer.

Full size? I'm not even satisfied with the model I'm working on now.
Of course if you want to start building it now, go right ahead.
I'll watch you and save myself the time and expense of model building.
I'm still not satisfied with the shear. chine is almost right
but the shear is just too tall in the forward third of the hull.
I like the curve, but not the height.










http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## iMacattack

to me it looks like to lower the shear you'll have to lower the chine to keep the proportions.


----------



## Brett

That's what's taking so long... 

Don't want to get ahead of myself with all my adjusting.
I think about it until I'm absolutely sure it's right, then go for it.
I think the red line will work better than the high "shoulder" in the previous pic.

I just realized, I'm building a Donzi Sweet 16 from plywood
with a shallow vee and and a sixth of the horsepower.

                                         ;D


----------



## cutrunner

Haha lol good call with the donzi


----------



## capt.doug

I am reminded of something my mother would say when she was a seamstress. "One more sequin can ruin the dress".  Brett, if you are like me, you will get to your "perfect" hull shape just BEFORE the last adjustment you make.... :-[


----------



## Brett

At this stage of the model, small adjustments are all that's taking place.
I've kept a photo record of all the shapes during the process
and all the images can be related to the overall model length of 91 inches.
Which means I can scale dimensions off of any build image
in order to duplicate a previous panel. No information lost.
If I over cut, it's only a small portion of an $11.74 luan panel.
Plenty more where that came from. The chine and shear strips
are really the most important part of this method of construction.
They haven't changed in length for 2 weeks, only in position vertically.
I'll be working the shear down a bit at a time with the block plane
with plenty of time to think about the results between changes.
This is why the half models are so much fun, playing with lumber
and getting the shape to where it feels and looks right.
Get the model right and the final build is is just a copy, only bigger.
None of this is difficult, just time consuming, and that I have plenty of.

                                          

            http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## capt.doug

I know you have this well under control, as I said, I was speaking of my experience.  They don't call me "Do it again, Doug" for nothing.  I am still anxious to learn how you are going to transfer all these carefully determined lines from the half scale model to the full scale version.  All the subtle curves you have planed down, I can't wait to learn how this is done. Is this a matter of a center line and offsets?


----------



## Brett

That's all it is Captain. The more stations, the better the transfer.
Create the longest straight line with the grain down the panel,
add 90 degree cross lines out to both edges of the panel and start measuring.
The tighter the station interval the more accurate the transfer.
Just have to remember the final layout is at a factor of 2.
Last step is bending a batten to fit the offset points and scribe the line.
The better the model, the better the final layout.
When I'm done with the model, I'll have 2 mirror image sets of templates.
Port and starboard sides and underhull. Hang 'em on the wall like trophies.
Any time you need to check a dimension, it's hanging there, ready to use.
Like I said, nothing difficult to accomplish, just time consuming.


----------



## capt.doug

So if I want to try my hand at this, theoretically a half model would get me were I need to be, although doing that probably brings it's own set of problems, every thing is a compromise it seems. What are your thoughts about that method?


----------



## Brett

I've made half-models just to see how it works.

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1240321282

My problem is that at a 1 to 12 scale, small, almost invisible errors
are magnified 12 times during the transfer to full scale.
That's the reason I built this model at half scale.
Less chance of magnifying an error.
A 1/12th scale half-model is a cheap and fast way to see if an idea works.
But a half scale isn't all that expensive and teaches what you'll need to do at full size.
My total cost for this model will be less than 50 dollars.
That's less than dinner and drinks for 2 at Outback.
It'll save me that much during the final build, in preventing mistakes.


----------



## Brett

Spent New Years Day playing with the model.
This part of fine tuning the lines, takes forever.
If it looked like it needed to lose an inch, I took off a 1/4 inch.
Really didn't want to overcut at this point in the game.
It looks like I'm almost finished with the side panel.
Shear and chine have reached the point where even after
looking at it and thinking about it overnight, I can't see much more to do.
Block and sandpaper is the tool of choice now, just smoothing curves.
Time to start thinking about bulkheads and decks.










http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## MrMoser223

Man that looks awesome! Keep up the fantastic work!


----------



## firecat1981

Hey Brett, is it the angle of the shot, or is the nose angles down a bit?


----------



## out-cast

It's got Team Zebco written all over it!! I like it, looks super stealthy.


----------



## Brett

> Hey Brett, is it the angle of the shot, or does the nose angle down a bit?



Hmmmm...nose tips down a bit? Could be, a little... 











http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


What other hulls have that classic look?    [smiley=happy.gif]


----------



## firecat1981

Is there a particular function to this droopy nose syndrome you got goin on there?


----------



## Brett

Besides the fact that I like the lines, it has to do with hull running angle
and the view of the water ahead from the helm position.
On plane the bow lifts up blocking the view of the water ahead.
The "dip" shaves a few degrees of hull off,
decreasing the amount of view that gets obstructed.
This is going to be a runabout, operated from a seated position.


----------



## oysterbreath

Where is the line for ordering plans?


----------



## Brett

;D Plans? Don't need no stinking plans! ;D

All you need is some cheap lumber, basic woodworking tools
and an hour a day to play with the pine lath and luan plywood.
Any one with an interest in building a boat can do so, at minimal expense.
Here are the plans...
Look at pictures of every hull that interests you.
Buy lumber, drill holes, assemble boat shaped framework
Try shapes until one makes you happy.
The panels you end up with are the templates for your full size build.



If I can do it, anyone can, it beats the heck out of watching tv...

http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## B.Lee

Looking good Brett, I've been following your Picasa album and thoroughly enjoying it. Got my wheels turning too in my head!

I know you'll have those stion offsets into a spreadsheet soon, go ahead and email me those so I can whip up a "Next" clone, it would make a nice bass boat on Lake Chickamauga here in TN! 

;D ;D

Are you planning on running your 9.9 Merc?


----------



## Brett

Next will have a bigger outboard, gotta cover more water, faster!
GladesGhost said he wants the 9.9, as it will just about be out of the break-in period.
He's probably right on that time frame, my typical trip only has about 20 minutes engine time.

                                                 

After pulling the side panel off and dimensioning it,
I went a little further and stripped off the shear strips and breasthook.
During the Slipper build, I learned the first idea is not always the best idea. 
I'm going to continue on and try another hull shape.
Back to the base framework and see what else can be accomplished.










http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## levip

hey brett we could strap my 5.5 on the back of that thing and you could take it for a test run???
i bet itd get pretty interesting


----------



## Brett

No thanks, levi... ;D

I'd rather see you build one and take the test run.
All my dimensions are available in the build album
and it's not like it's an expensive build at 8 feet long.
The underhull does look like the lines of a pwc.











I'm still bending plywood trying to see what a 16'
plywood panga would look like...busy, busy, busy!



http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## oysterbreath

> it beats the heck out of watching tv...


Let me guess, you don't have the playboy station? lol
J/K
Neither do I!


----------



## firecat1981

Brett your model might have just given me a solution to mine.


----------



## Brett

> Let me  guess, you don't have the playboy station?


That's right, that's why I can afford to build half-scale models.
All I've got is basic cable, the money I save gets spent on boats...and fishing... [smiley=happy.gif]


----------



## Brett

Model number 1 got disassembled and the panels put in storage.
Plenty of luan left to play with so model number 2 is underway.

This is a panga, a heavy blade utility knife
for cutting through thick brush and branches.










This is another panga, a plywood utility skiff, for cutting through choppy water.
Something the Grass Slipper wasn't designed for.










The Slipper, in a chop, allows waves over the bow and into the cockpit.
The high entry of a panga, splits those waves and shoves them aside.
Keeping the interior of the hull quite a bit dryer.
The half scale models are a lot cheaper to build than a full size hull.
Components from the first can be reused in the next.
Zip screws and a power screwdriver are good things!



http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## anytide

thats a SHARP skiff    gitttit lol   
-i really like that look alot       
                                             -anytide


----------



## firecat1981

I wonder if you will need to use a differnt technique to get the front compound you want. I was told a good way to get ply to compound it to cut slits going back, then a bit of putty and smooting can make a fairly sharp compound curve out of ply.


----------



## Brett

Anytide, if there was a smiley holding it's nose, I'd use it!
That was a bad one liner...very bad...  

FC, won't know about needing kerfs until I start bending plywood.
It'd be easy to cold mold or simply stretch mylar across and make an all glass/resin underhull.
Think skin over frame like a kayak. Obtain the exact shape, no fairing.
Don't know yet...that's the reason for the half-scale models.
Find the problems and figure out inexpensive solutions.
That plus I like driving around with a tiny panga hull in the bed of my truck.

                                       











http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


----------



## anytide

> Anytide, if there was a smiley holding it's nose, I'd use it!
> That was a bad one liner...very bad...
> 
> FC, won't know about needing kerfs until I start bending plywood.
> It'd be easy to cold mold or simply stretch mylar across and make an all glass/resin underhull.
> Think skin over frame like a kayak. Obtain the exact shape, no fairing.
> Don't know yet...that's the reason for the half-scale models.
> Find the problems and figure out inexpensive solutions.
> That plus I like driving around with a tiny panga hull in the bed of my truck.
> 
> 
> 
> http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next


-that was a gooood 1 liner  ;D...
-and i would use plywood for all of it , you can bend those curves easy enough.. some 1/4" or 3/8" will work  -gravy 
   -anytide


----------



## firecat1981

> some 1/4" or 3/8" will work -gravy


Tide I would love to see you get 3/8" around them curves in a full sheet ;D. just make sure to video it for umm....educational purposes


----------



## anytide

> some 1/4" or 3/8" will work  -gravy
> 
> 
> 
> Tide I would love to see you get 3/8" around them curves in a full sheet ;D. just make sure to video it for umm....educational purposes
Click to expand...

 knock the corner off that keel a little and a little waste   -GRAVY
-be one with the plywood grasshopper ..
     -anytide


----------



## firecat1981

now that's just cheatin


----------



## anytide

thats not cheatin , you make the plywood fit the skiff frame , not the skiff fit the plywood   plywood is your best friend when buliding wood skiffs..
    -it'l tell you where to go                                   -anytide


----------



## Brett

[smiley=thumbsup3.gif]



> you make the plywood fit the skiff frame, not the skiff fit the plywood


Well put Anytide, the essence of plywood boat building... direct, succinct.

The fun part is learning the techniques needed to accomplish that goal.

;D


----------



## anytide

> [smiley=thumbsup3.gif]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you make the plywood fit the skiff frame, not the skiff fit the plywood
> 
> 
> 
> Well put Anytide, the essence of plywood boat building... direct, succinct.
> 
> The fun part is learning the techniques needed to accomplish that goal.
> 
> ;D
Click to expand...

 roger that...   -sawdust, waste, splinters, push, pull, and bend ..plywood will give you some nice curves and shapes when you work it. -get one side done and use for template.


----------



## Andrewp

Brett: love how you've completely changed the look of your model from a curved-down hook to a upward curved bananna! 

You are showing how to "play" with plywood and design/get the look you want ...... pretty damn cool! 

More models to come??


----------



## Brett

Oh yeah, AP...been looking at cut runner's new toy,
I wonder if I could duplicate a Hobie 15 Powerskiff...
Models are cheap compared to actual builds,
I've really got to love what I see in order to build it.
So far I like what I've done, but haven't started to "obsess" yet!
A real build is a serious commitment of time and money,
models are just an excuse to flirt with the ideas and solve problems,
like my planing shoe for beveling the keelson to match the chine.











link to build album:

http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## firecat1981

I like it, but not as much as the last one. Whats with the sudden change in direction?


----------



## Brett

I looked at the first model, thought about it and decided "Next."

                                         

I still have a plenty of luan and pine strips, so why not?
It's not like I'm in a rush. I'm still using the Slipper in the marsh
and my canoes to paddle around in the fresh, so a panga model get's built.
I get as much enjoyment from building 'em as I do using 'em.
                        Maybe more...


----------



## Brett

Wing nuts on battery terminals are a bad idea...











But wing nuts to bend plywood is a good idea...











Combine wing nuts with threaded rod and some fender washers
makes it very easy to gradually apply tension to a plywood panel
and slowly pull it into the proper position, without breaking it.

I'm still figuring it out... 

http://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## floridanative1028

Cool build. Your new design is a bit more practical if your goal is to go places your other boat can't. You should be able to get pretty skinny and still have good speed numbers with a small low horsepower engine as well.


----------



## Andrewp

bump for Brett to post some new pics .... Brett, anything new??


----------



## Brett

> Brett, anything new??


Spring cleaning is under way.
House and garage being rearranged, yard/garden cleaned up.
Unwanted items being donated or dumped.
When complete I'll get back to the half scale models...


----------



## Brett

Some bends plywood is just not intended to make... ;D

Looks like I'm going to have to try another way to make this work.


https://picasaweb.google.com/bdefalco/Next#


----------



## firecat1981

Brett quit teasing the masses and buy your tin can already ;D


----------



## Brett

FC, I can't, I'm having too much fun figuring out how the pro's accomplish this.
It's cheap entertainment and it gives me something to look forward to each evening.
You can find examples of how it's all done on the web,
but until you try it yourself you haven't really learned it.
At halfscale, the costs are minimal compared to what I've been taught by the experience.

                                                

Don't laugh at the possibility of a "tinnie" in my future.
It's going to be hard to build or buy a 14 footer from any other material
that weighs less, costs less, floats shallower, needs less horsepower and requires less maintenance.

You seen the cost of fuel at the pumps lately?
I'm glad my biggest outboard only burns a gallon an hour.
On the back of a 14 foot aluminum, my 9.9 merc will give me 20 mpg.


----------



## topnative2

wet the plywood oh great one--but I bet u knew that!


----------



## Brett

Thought about it Top...decided against it.
Wetting lumber for boat construction is fine for old school builds
where the hull is expected to soak up water when launched.
The water causing the planks to swell and actually stop leaks.
Not so good an idea when encapsulating with epoxy and glass.
After wetting the plywood to bend it, an inordinate amount of time
will be needed to allow the lumber to dry out to allow effective sealing and lamination.

With all the reading I've been doing about wood hull construction
this is about the best explanation for not wetting plywood I've found...

http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/forum/longboard-board-building/10533-few-reasons-why-soaking-plywood-bend-bad-idea.html


----------



## topnative2

ok.darn---how about a narrow grove on the inside of the bend [smiley=1-laugh.gif]


----------



## topnative2

and then there is nidacore


----------



## anytide

lay a wet towel over it,  -wait for it... bend it, fasten it, and then fan it ..it'll dry in time 
  -you'll be on to something else while its drying 
                    -anytide


----------



## DuckNut

I just did this over the winter. Attach a piece larger than the desired size to the the back and have it somewhat aligned to where you want it to be. Use long deck screws to work from the middle out to the edges. Screw the middle to a bulkhead putting a fair amount of bend in it. Put it out in the sun for a day and then do it some more tomorrow. The sun will heat it up and allow it to bend. Once you have the middle fully attached mark your final cut and remove the piece and cut the put it back on and attach fully and make final fitting. Repeat on the other side.

Keep in mind that the piece you are trying to make is with full thickness panels and the final progect will be exponential to the half size and you will have less issues.


----------



## Brett

Thanks DN, I was so fixated on bending the plywood
I forgot that the thickness of the plywood is out of scale to the build.
I'm working with 1/4 inch luan, so to really match the panel to the bend
I'd have to be working with 1/8 inch ply to fit a halfscale model.

                                              ;D

                     Some days I'm just a big dum-adze,
                        losing sight of the mere details.

I'll purchase a sheet of 1/8 fiberboard and see if that makes a difference.


----------



## Frank_Sebastian

Hi Brett,

Be careful of that assumption. Remember the stiffness (deflection) of a panel or beam is inversely proportional to the cube root of the depth or thickness. In the case of 1/8 : 1/4 the 1/4 would be many times stiffer.

Frank_S


----------



## Brett

Thanks Frank, something else to read up on.
It's a rainy day so that'll keep me busy.
Possible solution, if a single sheet of 1/8 follows the desired bend,
then overlaying with a second sheet of 1/8 and bonding with epoxy
produces a total laminate thickness of 1/4 inch and produces the desired strength.

Just something else to figure out.


----------



## Andrewp

Out of curiousity, how would you glue the two 1/8 sheets together? (I'm assuming the first one is already on your boat, twisted and bent into proper position). What kind of clamping system would you use in order to make sure there were no "voids" between the sheets?

I like this idea .... many times we are constrained by the width of a sheet of ply (48"). If you were to use two sheets of ply (say two 1/4" sheets to make a 1/2" bottom) it would be easy to build a bottom to whatever width you wanted. The two sheets end up being "butt blocks" for each other ..........


----------



## Brett

The technique of gluing together multiple layers of plywood
is called cold molding AP. Most of the time it involves gluing
strips of plywood over a previous layer that was applied at a different angle.
Clamps or screws are the usual methods of holding the layers together.
Several examples have been posted on site in other builds.
I'm just thinking about taking the idea to a slightly larger scale.

I've got boxes of drywall screws... 

Capt. Kavanagh just finished a hull using cold molded plywood....

http://www.microskiff.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1260828679


----------

