# Whats your go to tarpon rod ?



## SC on the FLY

thinking about a keys Tarpon trip in the spring, whats everyones go to rod ? thanks for any and all input


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## WillW

11 or 12 one piece loomis crosscurrent or hardy proaxis


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## el9surf

WillW said:


> 11 or 12 one piece loomis crosscurrent or hardy proaxis


Mine are an 11 wt cross current 1 pc & a 10 wt hardy proaxis 1 pc


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## lemaymiami

I have a range of rods that I hand my anglers for tarpon (I know most think only of 11 or 12wt rods for tarpon - but the fish come in many sizes....).
For fish up to 30 lbs any 8 or 9wt rod (and for babies a 7wt or smaller)... for fish up to nearly 80lbs I'm happy with a 10wt rod -even up inside dark rivers. For bigger fish it's either an 11 or a 12wt rod - but the 11wt is a lot easier on the angler if you're going to be making lots of presentations. Down in the Keys (or any place where it's big open water that's pretty clear where you're not going to be making lots of casts) -then a 12 wt it is...

I"ve been building rods of every description for many years but have pretty much quit building fly rods since I simply can't build a replacement quickly enough when one is broken (and we break some rods on my skiff.....). If I had to pick up a new tarpon rod my first choice would be a modest cost TFO rod and the model would be a Ticr X. Can't say enough good things about them for fighting big fish. We routinely beat tarpon up to around 80lbs on my 10wt...

The last time I built rods for tarpon my choice was a Thomas & Thomas Horizon two piece nine foot blank (this was 20 years ago now...) using the old Powell metal seats. They were a matched pair, a 10 and a 12wt... Those same two rods are still with me today (and each has caught it's share of fish in commercial application....).


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## ifsteve

Sage Xi3 12 wt.


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## paint it black

I'm throwing a Sage Salt 12wt, a custom Sewell rods one piece 12wt, and I also have a custom rod built by forum member "Fish Freek". 

I really like the Sewell rod and the Salt, they feel light and easy to throw, but with some power behind it.

I love the way the Hardy Proaxis rods throw, they are one of my favorite big rods to cast, but they don't seem to have much stopping power once hooked up to a fish. Fighting a 70lb fish feels like a 180lb on the Proaxis 11wt. At least my experience with them. I've caught many fish on the Proaxis.


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## coconutgroves

I used to primarily throw a 10 since I targeting fish under 100, but now I only do that for small fish - under 50 pounds. Everything else, throw a 12. The funnest part of tarpon is the eat and jump, not the fight afterwards. Why use a light weight rod that could increase the mortality rate of the fish? Land them quick and let em go.

My 12 is a Winston B2-MX double wells - the double handle comes in handy to get extra leverage and fight the fish "down and dirty," as they say. I've seen and heard of many who break rods on big fish because they grab right above the cork - the rod is designed to bend from tip to butt, not tip to above the cork. The double wells helps distribute that tension across the butt. That is important on big fish.


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## Backwater

lemaymiami said:


> I have a range of rods that I hand my anglers for tarpon (I know most think only of 11 or 12wt rods for tarpon - but the fish come in many sizes....).
> For fish up to 30 lbs any 8 or 9wt rod (and for babies a 7wt or smaller)... for fish up to nearly 80lbs I'm happy with a 10wt rod -even up inside dark rivers. For bigger fish it's either an 11 or a 12wt rod - but the 11wt is a lot easier on the angler if you're going to be making lots of presentations. Down in the Keys (or any place where it's big open water that's pretty clear where you're not going to be making lots of casts) -then a 12 wt it is...
> 
> I"ve been building rods of every description for many years but have pretty much quit building fly rods since I simply can't build a replacement quickly enough when one is broken (and we break some rods on my skiff.....). If I had to pick up a new tarpon rod my first choice would be a modest cost TFO rod and the model would be a Ticr X. Can't say enough good things about them for fighting big fish. We routinely beat tarpon up to around 80lbs on my 10wt...
> 
> The last time I built rods for tarpon my choice was a Thomas & Thomas Horizon two piece nine foot blank (this was 20 years ago now...) using the old Powell metal seats. They were a matched pair, a 10 and a 12wt... Those same two rods are still with me today (and each has caught it's share of fish in commercial application....).


Those Horizons where a very nice casting rod for the bigger weights rods and still have the backbone needed to whip a fish quick. I never owned one but threw some of my clients 12wts back in the 90's and liked the action but felt my faster rods were the ones I would personally stick with. We whipped some good fish with those sticks! Funny thing about me these days is I like the action of bigger rods with a little more progressiveness in it like those Horizons than an ultra fast rod that I use to throw and still do. It's just easier throwing those heavier lines. Bob, try the TFO Mangrove in the 10 and 12wts. They are a nice throwing rod and a completely different animal than the lighter rods.


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## Backwater

I've thrown a lod of rods at tarpon over the years. Been thru several makes and models. I own a couple of Redington DFRs ($500 rods back in the day and designed by David Redington himself) and together, weve kicked some poon ass over the years. So I haven't had the need trade up for something I felt was better. So yes, these are my "go-to's" tarpon sticks.

However, not because I need another poon rod, I'm thinking tho I will add a Hardy Zephyrus SWS to the quiver! Not by a whim, or casual recommendation or a long quest for the perfect poon rod for me. No, but by accidently running into it, with a help from one of the most respected tarpon fisherman we all know. It is tarpon fly rod casting perfection, so far at this point for me!


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## SC on the FLY

W


Backwater said:


> I've thrown a lod of rods at tarpon over the years. Been thru several makes and models. I own a couple of Redington DFRs ($500 rods back in the day and designed by David Redington himself) and together, weve kicked some poon ass over the years. So I haven't had the need trade up for something I felt was better. So yes, these are my "go-to's" tarpon sticks.
> 
> However, not because I need another poon rod, I'm thinking tho I will add a Hardy Zephyrus SWS to the quiver! Not by a whim, or casual recommendation or a long quest for the perfect poon rod for me. No, but by accidently running into it, with a help from one of the most respected tarpon fisherman we all know. It is tarpon fly rod casting perfection, so far at this point for me!


What wt?


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## Backwater

SC on the FLY said:


> W
> 
> What wt?


Since I've already down size to 2 - 12wts, I'm leaning towards an 11wt since I'm going back to fishing flats this year.

_Not meaning to hijack this thread.... but... FYI for the newbies...._

Most of the Gulf coast poon fishing I do, the fish are "grown" and the water is typically deeper than in the Keys. So you need the backbone of a good 12wt for lifting strength. Our flies are typically bigger as well. I admit they are no fun to cast, but it's the best way to get them in quicker when they submarine. So if I was recommending only one big tarpon rod, it would be a 12wt for that reason (to have the backbone to get them in quickly). Otherwise, if you go lighter, you better know your fightling techniques down on how to whip a fish quickly (oh that's a whole other subject for sure!)!

I also recommend for your 1st tarpon rod is to get a good higher end "used" one (this is a great time of year to get good deals on them) or a reasonably priced mid grade rod. Hey, you may not like the efforts and what it takes to pursue them and get your 1st few fish over the next few years. You might also be frustrated at breaking the bank and having no luck! If you managed to be successful at it and become a junkie, THEN you can do a search for "The One!" 

I want to emphasize that you shouldn't worry about how cool your rod is and how it looks on the vids, but rather how well you throw a 12wt rod. It's a different animal from your lighter inshore sticks. When learning how to cast them, you need to go back to basics and make sure you run down a check list of ALL the proper casting techniques you need to throw a proper line, sort of like a flight check list before a pilot takes his aircraft up. Do this everytime you practice until it becomes 2nd nature and you don't have to think about it anymore. This may require going back to a casting instructor to get those "basics" recalled properly inside your head and your arms and also help for throwing a heavy rod. Any bad habits you may have will show up like the devil himself and be drilled into your muscles if you don't, which I will add will take a long time unraveling them back into proper casting techniques. IF you get those techniques down pat and practice regularly (10 minute intervals only) until your trip, you will be way more successful, you will thank yourself for doing so, and so will your guide or your buddy!  I'm sure you'd hate to edit all that video footage of you aimlessly failing the water into a froth otherwise and have nothing to show for it in the end! 

Here's another perk for getting your 12wt casting down pat. You will build solid muscle memory and those actual casting muscles in your wrist, forearm, shoulders, core muscles and pecks will strengthen and casting 8-10wts will feel like 5-8wts and a breeze to do so! 

You'll catch a WHOLE lot more fish on a $500-$600 dollar used outfit with a great cast and good fighting techniques, than $1500-$2k for an outfit (not to mention guide and travel expenses) and no clue what you're doing!

So what's the moral of that story? Is the stick more important? Nope! It's you and how you wield it! Later on down the road if you stick with it, a great stick will make the experience that much more pleasurable!


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## ifsteve

One key point that has sort of been addressed but not directly which makes answering this question very difficult. Because the answer depends on so many variables. IF you know just what type of tarpon fishing you will be doing on a given day then great. That will dictate your rod weight.
1. Blind casting all day for fish under 80# then yes a 10 wt is a good tool.
2. Fishing for baby tarpon then an 8wt is a good tool.

But if you are going tarpon fishing and its not a specific trip like the two above then IMO there is no reason to not use a 12wt. Bottom line is that I would much rather have a big stick and have more rod than I need for a smaller fish than to be holding a 10wt when a big poon swims buy.

And a high end light weight 12 wt is darn near as easy to cast as a heavy 10 wt. For example, a Sage Salt 12wt weighs 20% less than a TFO TiCrX 10 wt, which is my favorite TFO. So make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Not just the line weight of the rod bu tthe actual weight of the rod and reel. That is what you are hefting around all day.


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## Backwater

ifsteve said:


> One key point that has sort of been addressed but not directly which makes answering this question very difficult. Because the answer depends on so many variables. IF you know just what type of tarpon fishing you will be doing on a given day then great. That will dictate your rod weight.
> 1. Blind casting all day for fish under 80# then yes a 10 wt is a good tool.
> 2. Fishing for baby tarpon then an 8wt is a good tool.
> 
> But if you are going tarpon fishing and its not a specific trip like the two above then IMO there is no reason to not use a 12wt. Bottom line is that I would much rather have a big stick and have more rod than I need for a smaller fish than to be holding a 10wt when a big poon swims buy..


Good point on that "_wheres and the whats_" determining the ideal rod for the situation.

Here's my "however" to that. However, tho I see some people posting about 80lb tarpon on 10wts, if I knew that was the size fish, then I would pull out an 11wt or even a 12. Also where that 80lb fish is and when it arrived and what it's doing will also determine what rod I break out. You can hooked fresh, bright spunky 80lb male following a big girl in cool, deep, oxygenated ocean water on the oceanside and the thing becomes full of piss and vinegar and you wish you had a dbl handle 13wt in your hands instead of flimsy light 10wt. I've seen 60lb fish shattered 12wts, so it's not always what you think you need! I've also caught laid up (almost sleeping) poons in still, stagnant, shallow, hot, low oxygenated water in narrow mangrove rivers, with no place for them to run and whipped 60-80lb fish on 9 and 10wts in short order.

What are they doing and what will they do, is only determined and forecasted by years of experience. That's where you need to listen to your guide or your buddy with more experience than you if you don't have much in that area.

I know others have a different rule of thumb or guide line, but for me, 10-30lb fish, I'm using 8-9wts. 20-60lb fish, I'll use the 10wt. If I know the fish are somewhere around 60lbs or over, I'm using 11-12wts. If I know their all over a buck, I'll only grab the 12wt. Heck, I know a couple of specific spots where a 8'6" 15wt is the right tool for the job!



ifsteve said:


> And a high end light weight 12 wt is darn near as easy to cast as a heavy 10 wt. For example, a Sage Salt 12wt weighs 20% less than a TFO TiCrX 10 wt, which is my favorite TFO. So make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Not just the line weight of the rod bu tthe actual weight of the rod and reel. That is what you are hefting around all day.


Here is the 2nd "however." However, The actual weight doesn't always determine how easy or hard a rod is to cast. The way a rod is design plays a big part on how hard or easy it is, coupled with how it's balanced with the reel and the weight of the reel, not to mention the line and don't forget your ability to throw that rod properly to wake it up and watch it talk to ya!

You talk about the TFO TiCRx. Those are what I call beef stick rods and has a serious butt section. Yes they're heavy and hold together under serious abuse, but they feel a little like a broomstick in hand to me. That's one of the reason why guides like Capt Lemay and his clients are able to help whip 80lb fish in the backcountry rivers with a 10wt, because they are design for lifting power and boat abuse, not necessarily a finesse casting rod. It's more of a tool, than something more in the lines of a Sage Method or Xi3 which leans a little more of a finesse casting rod and is more fragile.

I've also had the lightest of rods feel heavy in-hand since and felt like a broomstick during the cast. Then pick up a rod much heavier and felt much lighter when casting because of the way the mantrels and tapers in the rod are designed, giving it an easy flow to the rod.

Back some years ago I owned 2 Orvis T3 10wts. T3's were one their high end rods back in the day. So one was a "Tip Flex" and the other was a "Mid Flex" rod. Both were identical rods other than that and weighted the same. I owned them at the same time. I enjoyed fast rods so I thought the Tip Flex rod would be my rod of choice. But after casting it for a while, it felt heavy in-hand and fatigued me if I threw it more than 30 mins. The Mid Flex actually was easier to throw those heavier lines and felt much lighter in-hand on the swing and therefore, I could cast it all day, compares to the other one. And remember, I'm a big fan of ultra fast rods for the lighter rods.

Here's another point to rod weights and how they feel in the higher weight rated lines. You can take an ultra fast light weight rod and put on a light floater and a very light weight reel and the thing can feel heavy in-hand when casting, which the center of gravity or the fulcrum point is more forward up the rod from where you place your casting hand. Therefore, the rod feel slightly heavy when casting. Now then, add a heavier weighted reel and a slightly heavier line. The balance point of the rod (fulcrum point), is now at or slightly below that hand )towards the reel) and now it feels lighter on the swing, and offers a little more weight on the tip to load the rod easier and quicker. Even little nuances like rod fibration or dampening can change how it feels in flight.

You see? So it's not always about the physical weight of the rod. Here's several examples of what I'm talking about from my personal experience (hopefully without stepping on some folks toes!)
Clutch Theory - Looks very light and is light and fast - Feels heavy and stiff on the swing.
Hardy Zephyrus - Looks heavy and not so light - Feels light in-hand on the swing. Nice backbone too.
Scott Meridian - Looks light and feels light. - Feels nice and light on the swing. Sweet throw, but questioned the backbone for tarpon.
Loomis GLX - Nice and light, looks light and it's fast with floaters - Feels moderate heavy on the swing and hates heavier lines.
TFO BVK - Looks heavy but feels light - Feels Moderate light on the swing. Looks like it has backbone but not rated for it.
TFO Mangrove - Looks and is slightly heavy - Feels moderately easy and light on the swing. Good backbone.
TFO TiCRx - Looks heavy and clunky and is heavy - Is heavy on the swing, but tough rod. good lifting power.
TFO Axiom - Looks light and feels light but is heavy - Is heavy in-hand on the swing. Note, heavier lines makes it feel lighter, then shoots like a cannon! Feels like it has backbone but not rated for it.
TFO Impact - Super light looks and feel - Swing feels light but line makes it feel overloaded (maybe not enough backbone, idk). Still, it cracked it out of there.

The list goes on and on...

But while I'm on the subject of TFO's, here's a good one.... try to find a TFO 7'10" 10wt. Hawg Leg at Bass Pro Shop and go out and cast it on their lawn or pond out back.. That rod for $149 will put a big fat grin on your face and make you think hard and wonder what you really need for an inside back country mangrove medium size tarpon rod. 

Just my take on the subject. 

No I don't work for or get any benefits from TFO. Just sayin!

Ted Haas


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## Backwater

paint it black said:


> I'm throwing a Sage Salt 12wt, a custom Sewell rods one piece 12wt, and I also have a custom rod built by forum member "Fish Freek".
> 
> I really like the Sewell rod and the Salt, they feel light and easy to throw, but with some power behind it.
> 
> I love the way the Hardy Proaxis rods throw, they are one of my favorite big rods to cast, but they don't seem to have much stopping power once hooked up to a fish. Fighting a 70lb fish feels like a 180lb on the Proaxis 11wt. At least my experience with them. I've caught many fish on the Proaxis.



Is the custom Sewell rod from Alan Sewell in St Pete or the Sewell rod company in Fort Myers (I think it's Alan's son). Alan told me he has 40 rods in his personal quiver that he wouldn't get rid of. Now that's obsession! lol


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## paint it black

Backwater said:


> Is the custom Sewell rod from Alan Sewell in St Pete or the Sewell rod company in Fort Myers (I think it's Alan's son). Alan told me he has 40 rods in his personal quiver that he wouldn't get rid of. Now that's obsession! lol


Matt Sewell from Ft. Myers. builds great rods.


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## ifsteve

Ted you are spot on. 
1. I use a 12 on tarpon 95% of the time because I just never know what I might see and I much prefer to be overgunned (which is still rare for me because I am not fishing for small fish anyway).
2. Your lengthy discussion on rod weights is correct.. One rod may indeed "feel" light in hand and some other rod may "fee"l heavy in hand even though the physical weights are opposite. The design of the blank has much to do with that feel. Now here is my however, lol. A well constructed blank that weighs less than a heavier well constructed blank will be less tiring at the end of the day. Balance is much of the "feel" but a good "feel" rod that weighs less than another good "feel" rod will be less tiring. The best rod built in the world can not overcome the laws of physics.


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## Backwater

ifsteve said:


> 2. Your lengthy discussion on rod weights is correct.. One rod may indeed "feel" light in hand and some other rod may "fee"l heavy in hand even though the physical weights are opposite. The design of the blank has much to do with that feel. Now here is my however, lol. A well constructed blank that weighs less than a heavier well constructed blank will be less tiring at the end of the day. Balance is much of the "feel" but a good "feel" rod that weighs less than another good "feel" rod will be less tiring. The best rod built in the world can not overcome the laws of physics.


Sorry for being "lengthy!" LOL I have a bad habit of doing that. 

I would say there are some truths to what you are saying there, but I can't totally agree with that with the heavier line weight rods. Yes there are heavy rods that will wear you out but there are also some rods that are easy on you, even tho they are heavier than some. You commented on the "Feel" of a rod, which is true. But I've taken heavy rods with light weight reels and lines and put heavier reels on them and ended up feeling lighter in hand and easier to cast. Remember, you are not casting the rod, your casting the line. Not so much noticeable in lighter rods but very prevalent on heavier line rods.

I changed one of my 12wts from an ultra light reel (I was thinking like you) and put on a reel 5oz heavier and the thing woke up and I could cast it a lot easier and it didn't fatigue me as much. Remember, a good reel, backing and line can weigh over a pound. 12wt rods are at least 1/2 that weight or lighter.

Also how you cast that rod will make a world of difference. IF you are casting with your arm over your shoulder, then yes, the weight will add up and feel heavier, and thereby wearing out your rotor cuff. I'm throwing with my elbow down to my side and let my arm drift straight back if I need distance. Very minimal shoulder fatigue and can throw has far as I want to that way.

Sorry, not trying to debate, just clarifying a point.


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## Backwater

Any of you guys in the West Central Florida area, please come out to the Big Gun Shoot out to view the fun or participate. It's hosted by Tampa Bay Fly Club, located on Picnic Island this Sunday (Nov 22nd) and it's free and plenty of food is involved!  I should be there for the entire event so come find me. I'm more of a fly caster for fish than I am for casting tournaments, but decided to join the fun and see where I'm at. You can do the same. So bring your rods and big fly rods (poon rods too) and I'll see what I can do to help you get the most out of them with less efforts. 

Ted Haas


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## ifsteve

Ted fun as always to discuss the technical aspects of our sport! And you are mostly correct. How you cast a rod will ultimately be the determining factor in tiring out. Poor technique or having to work too hard for a certain rod/rel/line combination will be tough on you. But bottom line:
1. Moving 15 oz back and forth is less tiring than moving 20 oz back and forth if both can be cast correctly.
and here is the biggie since we are talking tarpon rods here.
2. I have tarpon fished for a few years now and I have NEVER been tired from casting at the end of a day of tarpon fishing. Never and not even close.

In something like 45 years of fly fishing I can truly say the only kind of fishing I have done where I honestly was tired of the actual casting at the end of a day is salmon fishing where I am casting a 9 or 10wt and heavy flies blind casting all day. That can be tiring! But isn't that a good thing too!!! 

Cheers,

Steve

PS - Now I got to go get ready. Got some ducks in a corn field that needs some lessons taught to them....lol


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## lemaymiami

For those that have never pulled hard on something bright silver and very ornery (after they settle down)....you should know that the vast majority of rods actually "broken on fish" were being mis-used at the time.... High sticking (not keeping the tip of the rod almost pointed at the fish whenever it's near the skiff....) accounts for the majority of the rods broken on my skiff, in second place are rods that when bent hard are allowed to touch the gunnels (and then snap like a toothpick....). Lastly we have broken a few rods that should never have broken (were being used hard but properly) - those I attribute to previous un-detected damage (a hard knock to a specific spot on a blank that later fails under load....).

I won't even attempt to talk about badly designed blanks that earned a well deserved reputation for not holding up under big fish (the poster child for this had to be the original Orvis Trident rods that we broke so many of on my skiff years ago...).

Most that fly fish have never actually pulled hard on any fish they've fought.... My routine to teach someone how to actually pull hard on a fish involves tying your line to a fixed post (a fence is a good place to start) then back away about forty feet and pull hard by only raising the rod. If it were measured you'd find that you can't pull much harder than 3lbs with this technique..... Now step back while pointing the rod directly at the anchor point until the line is very tight (but not so tight that it's hurting your hand...). Here's the kicker (and how to separate the sheep from the goats...) -in that same position while the line is still very tight, pull to the side and hold it HARD... now continue in this position for twenty minutes and you'll learn what's really needed to get down on a big fish. By the way with this techique you can actually pull almost up to the breaking point with a 20lb tippet.... For this sort of stuff you'll want your elbows tucked in tight to your ribs and use your whole body to pull with by simply turning in one direction or the other to really pull (and you'll want both your hands only on the cork -never the blank...). Lastly, just like a sword or knife fight keep your balance and try to stay loose and ready for any sudden adjustments needed. Going "to the max" on big fish means risking a break-off if you can't react quickly to whatever a fish does (and you'll actually be less tired at the end of a fight if you can stay loose, keep your balance, and stay as relaxed as possible with a big fish on (by the way big is entirely relative - a 40lb tarpon on an 8wt is a monster....).

Lastly I would never build or own a big fly rod with more than one handle, period. That second handle that so many builders think is a good idea is just an invitation to a broken rod as far as I'm concerned.... since it puts your hand right where it shouldn't be if you're going all out.... One of the folks that taught me this sort of stuff was Sandy Moret, by the way....among others.

(opinionated, ain't I....)


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## SC on the FLY

ifsteve said:


> Ted fun as always to discuss the technical aspects of our sport! And you are mostly correct. How you cast a rod will ultimately be the determining factor in tiring out. Poor technique or having to work too hard for a certain rod/rel/line combination will be tough on you. But bottom line:
> 1. Moving 15 oz back and forth is less tiring than moving 20 oz back and forth if both can be cast correctly.
> and here is the biggie since we are talking tarpon rods here.
> 2. I have tarpon fished for a few years now and I have NEVER been tired from casting at the end of a day of tarpon fishing. Never and not even close.
> 
> In something like 45 years of fly fishing I can truly say the only kind of fishing I have done where I honestly was tired of the actual casting at the end of a day is salmon fishing where I am casting a 9 or 10wt and heavy flies blind casting all day. That can be tiring! But isn't that a good thing too!!!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve
> 
> PS - Now I got to go get ready. Got some ducks in a corn field that needs some lessons taught to them....lol


So what's your go to rod?


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## Backwater

ifsteve said:


> PS - Now I got to go get ready. Got some ducks in a corn field that needs some lessons taught to them....lol


Ohh... Your speaking my language now! LOL Dang, we don't got no corn fields!


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## Backwater

lemaymiami said:


> For those that have never pulled hard on something bright silver and very ornery (after they settle down)....you should know that the vast majority of rods actually "broken on fish" were being mis-used at the time.... High sticking (not keeping the tip of the rod almost pointed at the fish whenever it's near the skiff....) accounts for the majority of the rods broken on my skiff, in second place are rods that when bent hard are allowed to touch the gunnels (and then snap like a toothpick....). Lastly we have broken a few rods that should never have broken (were being used hard but properly) - those I attribute to previous un-detected damage (a hard knock to a specific spot on a blank that later fails under load....).
> 
> I won't even attempt to talk about badly designed blanks that earned a well deserved reputation for not holding up under big fish (the poster child for this had to be the original Orvis Trident rods that we broke so many of on my skiff years ago...).
> 
> Most that fly fish have never actually pulled hard on any fish they've fought.... My routine to teach someone how to actually pull hard on a fish involves tying your line to a fixed post (a fence is a good place to start) then back away about forty feet and pull hard by only raising the rod. If it were measured you'd find that you can't pull much harder than 3lbs with this technique..... Now step back while pointing the rod directly at the anchor point until the line is very tight (but not so tight that it's hurting your hand...). Here's the kicker (and how to separate the sheep from the goats...) -in that same position while the line is still very tight, pull to the side and hold it HARD... now continue in this position for twenty minutes and you'll learn what's really needed to get down on a big fish. By the way with this techique you can actually pull almost up to the breaking point with a 20lb tippet.... For this sort of stuff you'll want your elbows tucked in tight to your ribs and use your whole body to pull with by simply turning in one direction or the other to really pull (and you'll want both your hands only on the cork -never the blank...). Lastly, just like a sword or knife fight keep your balance and try to stay loose and ready for any sudden adjustments needed. Going "to the max" on big fish means risking a break-off if you can't react quickly to whatever a fish does (and you'll actually be less tired at the end of a fight if you can stay loose, keep your balance, and stay as relaxed as possible with a big fish on (by the way big is entirely relative - a 40lb tarpon on an 8wt is a monster....).
> 
> Lastly I would never build or own a big fly rod with more than one handle, period. That second handle that so many builders think is a good idea is just an invitation to a broken rod as far as I'm concerned.... since it puts your hand right where it shouldn't be if you're going all out.... One of the folks that taught me this sort of stuff was Sandy Moret, by the way....among others.
> 
> (opinionated, ain't I....)


THAT was the "_other subject_" I decided not to comment and go down that road! Didn't want to be more of a thread hog than I was already being! LOL But Capt Lemay, you nailed it to the "T" and in short order I will add!

I've never owned a 2 handled rod after Stu Apte recommended against it, to me about 23yrs ago, where you loose the power of the fighting butt! When grabbing the rod higher, even on the blank, you isolate every bit of the rod from that point to the rear of the rod, which is where all your fighting power is stored. The only 2 handled rod I played around with was a 2 handled 8'6" 15wt I field tested for a little while where we were pulling monsters out from under shipping docks in 45ft of water and also huge laid up females in some non named spots where you had about 3000sqft to work with and trees all around. Nothing sucks worst that a huge tarpon launching into the trees, well off couse maybe your Levithan fly line getting shredded on the oyster covered shipping dock pilings! LOL

Bob, thanks for the comments to these guys. Rods will get snapped for the dumbest reasons and for carelessness.

Back many years ago, I was at Cliff Martin's fly shop (World Class Outfitters I believe it was called). I was young and spunky and thought I was a bad a__ behind a 12wt stick! Cliff was old school and rough around the edges to talk to at that time for me, since I thought I was all that (not really, just exaggerating! lol). So he took me out back to the wood shed (metaphorically speaking like my grandfather would do twisting my ear) with a chatillon scale, tied it to the truck bumper and said "Now give it everything you've got!"(lookin like this ) lol Anyway, so I pulled my a__ off and could only get 6lbs on the scale. That's when I decided to learn the mechanics on how to put the heat on them by body and rod mechanics and whip big fish instead of toying and playing around with them. Also lead them out of the danger zone before they know what's going on (I call it "walkin the dog"). Also how to stick a hook properly and completely! These are all subjects that can have mini seminars done on them to explain.

ifSteve, your right, this is all fun!


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## ifsteve

SC on the FLY said:


> So what's your go to rod?


As I said earlier my go to rod these days is a Sage Xi3 12 wt. Been pretty much flawless .....well except for that one time in Boca Grande pass......lol


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## Snookdaddy

An old Scott STS 11wt. is my rod of choice.. You can find them occasionally on ebay. They've worked well for me..


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## Blue Zone

I will be "transitioning" as they say from offshore dolphin & tuna to trying tarpon on my 12 wt Winston Boron IIx.


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## jsnipes

I really want to try the new fiberglass 12 wt from Epic, the Boca Grande
http://swiftflyfishing.com/products/epic-boca-grand-12

I have a Bandit (the 10wt) that is pretty awesome and a pleasure to cast...imagine this one is similar


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## sjrobin

jsnipes said:


> I really want to try the new fiberglass 12 wt from Epic, the Boca Grande
> http://swiftflyfishing.com/products/epic-boca-grand-12
> 
> I have a Bandit (the 10wt) that is pretty awesome and a pleasure to cast...imagine this one is similar


I would love to cast the Bandit 10 wt.


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## Backwater

It would be interesting to throw the rod, and I'm all for easier throwing 12wts. But Geeze, their language describing the rod is little to be desired. I'm sure the components are good and I've owned rods built with blanks from NZ, but they are making some bold statements. I have a feeling that rod has never seen a Boca Grande tarpon before and for a $910 price tag, plus shipping and tax (around $1k), I think I'll pass!


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## ifsteve

Backwater said:


> It would be interesting to throw the rod, and I'm all for easier throwing 12wts. But Geeze, their language describing the rod is little to be desired. I'm sure the components are good and I've owned rods built with blanks from NZ, but they are making some bold statements. I have a feeling that rod has never seen a Boca Grande tarpon before and for a $910 price tag, plus shipping and tax (around $1k), I think I'll pass!


I am with you Ted. They well may be awesome rods and I would love to try one. But their description is a bit over the top (want to sleep in the grip.....really). But that said as an engineering type there is one thing on their specs that I absolutely detest. They list the weight of the blank. Fine but how about telling me what the rod actually weighs! Its like a boat builder that tells me the draft of their boat but when you dig a little deeper its the draft of a bare hull. Big whoop. That means jack.


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## lemaymiami

I'm going to chime in here since I started building rods long before "graphite" (these days to sound sophisticated, high-end builders call it "carbon fiber" - but it's the same graphite...) came along and built a fair number of fly rods with fiberglass blanks -mostly Lamiglass or Fisher blanks.... I even built a one piece Fisher glass blank into a real 13wt rod (and it was a rug-beater of a rod....).

Before anyone gets all fired up about fiberglass in heavier blanks, you might want to cast one first (if they'll allow such with a high priced rod....). One thing I'd bet on is that any builder working with glass blanks in the larger sizes won't want to talk about how few they've actually built.... When graphite first came along (mid seventies) the early blanks were a bit brittle (understatement) so there was still many that wanted fiberglass since it was much more durable and could take the beating that boats of that era routinely provided just getting to and from wherever you were planning on fishing.... Once graphite became reliable (and was being improved steadily year after year) it was the superior material for heavier fly rods in my opinion. Everyone else must have agreed since fiberglass heavy fly rod blanks pretty much disappeared....


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## ifsteve

Well said Capt Bob!


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## jsnipes

I wasn't around back then...but think you would be really surprised by some of the newer fiberglass rods.

I am someone who typically casts super fast-action rods...most of my graphite rods are Sage TCX's and I have one of the new Method rods. I reallly have been enjoying fishing this Epic 10wt fiberglass rod and doubt anyone would consider it to be too "heavy" or anything along those lines.

Would a 12wt tip the balance? Maybe it would, I haven't casted it yet...but I suspect it's a lot lighter and more user-friendly than people are giving it credit for (even if their marketing department is a bit outlandish)


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## sjrobin

jsnipes said:


> I wasn't around back then...but think you would be really surprised by some of the newer fiberglass rods.
> 
> I am someone who typically casts super fast-action rods...most of my graphite rods are Sage TCX's and I have one of the new Method rods. I reallly have been enjoying fishing this Epic 10wt fiberglass rod and doubt anyone would consider it to be too "heavy" or anything along those lines.
> 
> Would a 12wt tip the balance? Maybe it would, I haven't casted it yet...but I suspect it's a lot lighter and more user-friendly than people are giving it credit for (even if their marketing department is a bit outlandish)


I found a review on a Sage Salt from Head Hunters Fly shop and he had a Epic Bandit 10 wt on board for a Keys tarpon trip this year. Good photo of a lady and the rod working a 65 lb tarpon close to the skiff . The glass is bent in a U shape kind of like you would expect. Great looking rod just limit your fish size to less than 40?
http: // www.headhuntersflyshop.com/sage-salt-review


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## Backwater

lemaymiami said:


> I'm going to chime in here since I started building rods long before "graphite" (these days to sound sophisticated, high-end builders call it "carbon fiber" - but it's the same graphite...) came along and built a fair number of fly rods with fiberglass blanks -mostly Lamiglass or Fisher blanks.... I even built a one piece Fisher glass blank into a real 13wt rod (and it was a rug-beater of a rod....).
> 
> Before anyone gets all fired up about fiberglass in heavier blanks, you might want to cast one first (if they'll allow such with a high priced rod....). One thing I'd bet on is that any builder working with glass blanks in the larger sizes won't want to talk about how few they've actually built.... When graphite first came along (mid seventies) the early blanks were a bit brittle (understatement) so there was still many that wanted fiberglass since it was much more durable and could take the beating that boats of that era routinely provided just getting to and from wherever you were planning on fishing.... Once graphite became reliable (and was being improved steadily year after year) it was the superior material for heavier fly rods in my opinion. Everyone else must have agreed since fiberglass heavy fly rod blanks pretty much disappeared....


LOL I love the that term.... "_rug beater of a rod_!" I want to use it but I'll quote you on it Bob! lol

I wasn't using flyrods back in the 70's but I use glass spinning and conventional rods. I remember when I got my 1st hollow core Hurricane tarpon rod and awed at how light they were. I also remembered one of the 1st big fly rod I threw was a friends Lamiglass. It felt heavy and buggy whipish.

ifsteve, yea your right. I would want to know what the weight of the rod is. I'm sure they're lighter than the old glass rods, but probably not like the graphites. Also, that 10wt glass rod in that pic with the girl is too bowed over for my liking. That's yet another reason I wouldn't want it.

jsnipes, I don't find that the TCX, XI3's or the Method are super fast rods. I keep hearing people say that but I don't see it or feel it. Fast, yes, but super fast? Not really. That's why you might like the feel of those Epic glass rods. I'm seeing a lot of trout guys refer to those Sage rods as super fast (not trying to step on toes). The only current Sage rod I would consider as a poon rod would be a Salt. Other than that, there are many other brands and models that make excellent poon rods.

Going back to the common point of the threat "tarpon" Fast is not as important and slower is not as important. The real question is, can you throw that line with that rod to those fish and have enough ass in the rod and good fish fighting techniques under your belt to fight those fish properly without burning the fish out or yourself. That is today's question for all to ponder when choosing a poon rod.


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## jsnipes

To be clear, wasn't suggesting using the Bandit as a tarpon rod (although i think it would be fine for fish ~60lbs and under).

"good fish fighting techniques under your belt to fight those fish properly without burning the fish out or yourself."
You're exactly right. Think the picture of the lady fighting the tarpon on the Bandit just shows she wasn't doing the above...if she tried to pull with that angle with a graphite rod something would give!

Do you like the Salt? I casted the Salt, NRX, and Method 11wts side-by-side before buying a new tarpon stick last year and thought the Salt was kind of clunky. Felt like control and line speed with Method was a lot better (or at least fit my style better).

edit: and yea, no sensitivities about what's considered "super fast" -- the TCX / Method feels faster to me than the older Sage RPLXi, Loomis and T&T rods I have...but a lot of rods I haven't casted -- all meaningless if you can't make them move anyhow


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## sjrobin

Backwater said:


> LOL I love the that term.... "_rug beater of a rod_!" I want to use it but I'll quote you on it Bob! lol
> 
> I wasn't using flyrods back in the 70's but I use glass spinning and conventional rods. I remember when I got my 1st hollow core Hurricane tarpon rod and awed at how light they were. I also remembered one of the 1st big fly rod I threw was a friends Lamiglass. It felt heavy and buggy whipish.
> 
> ifsteve, yea your right. I would want to know what the weight of the rod is. I'm sure they're lighter than the old glass rods, but probably not like the graphites. Also, that 10wt glass rod in that pic with the girl is too bowed over for my liking. That's yet another reason I wouldn't want it.
> 
> jsnipes, I don't find that the TCX, XI3's or the Method are super fast rods. I keep hearing people say that but I don't see it or feel it. Fast, yes, but super fast? Not really. That's why you might like the feel of those Epic glass rods. I'm seeing a lot of trout guys refer to those Sage rods as super fast (not trying to step on toes). The only current Sage rod I would consider as a poon rod would be a Salt. Other than that, there are many other brands and models that make excellent poon rods.
> 
> Going back to the common point of the threat "tarpon" Fast is not as important and slower is not as important. The real question is, can you throw that line with that rod to those fish and have enough ass in the rod and good fish fighting techniques under your belt to fight those fish properly without burning the fish out or yourself. That is today's question for all to ponder when choosing a poon rod.


Good points Ted. Lifting or pulling power is the most important part of fighting big fish fast. One piece rods are great tools for it. I have only caught tarpon on casting gear but I am ready to buy a tarpon fly rod now but only for shots in ENP inside and out a few times a year. Ideally a very powerful ten wt. In your opinion, who makes the most powerful , toughest ten wt in a one piece?


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## holland

I use two Sage Xi-2's - one with fore-grip and one without and an Abel Super 12 on each.


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## Backwater

sjrobin said:


> Good points Ted. Lifting or pulling power is the most important part of fighting big fish fast. One piece rods are great tools for it. I have only caught tarpon on casting gear but I am ready to buy a tarpon fly rod now but only for shots in ENP inside and out a few times a year. Ideally a very powerful ten wt. In your opinion, who makes the most powerful , toughest ten wt in a one piece?


Hardy Zephyrus SWS!

But Robin, I'm a little confused. Don't you live quite a ways from ENP? I guess if your taking your skiff down that would be ok. But 1 piece rods are tough to travel with.


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## Backwater

jsnipes said:


> To be clear, wasn't suggesting using the Bandit as a tarpon rod (although i think it would be fine for fish ~60lbs and under).
> 
> "good fish fighting techniques under your belt to fight those fish properly without burning the fish out or yourself."
> You're exactly right. Think the picture of the lady fighting the tarpon on the Bandit just shows she wasn't doing the above...if she tried to pull with that angle with a graphite rod something would give!
> 
> Do you like the Salt? I casted the Salt, NRX, and Method 11wts side-by-side before buying a new tarpon stick last year and thought the Salt was kind of clunky. Felt like control and line speed with Method was a lot better (or at least fit my style better).
> 
> edit: and yea, no sensitivities about what's considered "super fast" -- the TCX / Method feels faster to me than the older Sage RPLXi, Loomis and T&T rods I have...but a lot of rods I haven't casted -- all meaningless if you can't make them move anyhow


Salt? Yes clunky, but has backbone. Yes the Methods are smooth casting rods but I question the backbone for tarpon. BTW, isn't there a fly fisherman on this site called "Backbone? I like that handle! lol

If you ask Capt Lemay what flyrod he puts in his clients hands when tarpon fishing, it's a TFO TiCRx. It's clunky for sure, stiff and is not what I call a pleasurable rod to throw. But the thing has backbone! It's a tool for him and backbone is important.

What happen to your RPLXi? Now the 10-12wts were good tarpon rods. They had a good stout butt section and somewhat easy to cast. T&T also made a Horizon back then that was also a good tarpon stick.

I've never thrown a NRX 12wt but after throwing the 8's and 9's, I guess they would be ok. Scott S?S make a good stick as well. Again, I haven't thrown the Meridian yet in a 10 or 12wt, but they are very sweet throwing rods as well and personally I would think they have more butt section than the Methods.

Which leads me to a point. If you are located far away from tarpon waters and will only occasionally fish them, then I wouldn't go throwing tons of money at an outfit that you will only use very rarely, well until you've made it a point to make it a regular thing. Get an older high end rod that someone doesn't use and is collecting dust (think about that one) and get a deal on it or go get a mid grade rod. I would have no problems fishing poons with a 10wt-12wt Mangrove after throwing those rods in the bigger line weights (different animal than the lighter weight Mangroves). But hey, that's just me!


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## Backwater

holland said:


> I use two Sage Xi-2's - one with fore-grip and one without and an Abel Super 12 on each.


Holland, I understand the "Whys" on why someone would want a 2 handled rod. But as Stu Apte would say "It's a crutch for not having good fighting techniques" and not knowing how to take advantage of the butt section of the rod" Again, once you grab that handle above your full wells handle, you isolate everything in the butt section from that point south to the reel. Your rod becomes shorter, it becomes thinner and just eliminated 40% of the fighting power of the butt section. Also, it is easy to accidently high sticking a fish at the boat when grabbing the rod at that point and trying to lift the fish up to the surface.


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## jsnipes

Cool, good stuff. Thanks for reply Backwater.


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## sjrobin

Backwater said:


> Hardy Zephyrus SWS!
> 
> But Robin, I'm a little confused. Don't you live quite a ways from ENP? I guess if your taking your skiff down that would be ok. But 1 piece rods are tough to travel with.


I was thinking Hardy based on reviews and your comments. Have skiff will travel. Larger and greater variety of species lurk in the glades compared to Texas flats and marsh. I fished out of Choko twice(summer) in the 90's unguided and in a 21' classic outrage we pulled from Texas. My brother's in laws live near Ft Lauderdale. We did not see another boat and no trailers at the ramp. My kind of place. We had a tarpon on within two hours(lures not sight casted) and silver flashes over a huge area somewhere to the east outside. I know we were lucky and hopefully we can find more magic. Another challenge....


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## Backwater

sjrobin said:


> I was thinking Hardy based on reviews and your comments. Have skiff will travel. Larger and greater variety of species lurk in the glades compared to Texas flats and marsh. I fished out of Choko twice(summer) in the 90's unguided and in a 21' classic outrage we pulled from Texas. My brother's in laws live near Ft Lauderdale. We did not see another boat and no trailers at the ramp. My kind of place. We had a tarpon on within two hours(lures not sight casted) and silver flashes over a huge area somewhere to the east outside. I know we were lucky and hopefully we can find more magic. Another challenge....


Robin, the recommendation came directly to me from Andy Mills personally. Once he gave me "his go-to stick" to try (the Hardy Zephyrus SWS 11wt and in his case, the 1 piece) it almost gave me chills to throw it. Loved the over-size re-coil guides! He told me out of all the rods he's ever tarpon fished with and thrown, it is the best tarpon rod he's ever had, bar none! That comes from a 5 time Gold Cup winner. I think that says enough for me. 






Robin, make sure we keep in touch. I might be down there at the same time and we can get together and hook a few up. Time of year will be key where the fish will be.

So hey, what about all these big poons I keep hearing about in Texas where they catch them with **** pops and whatever? I bet you can get them to eat a fly. I fly fish in waters much like that sometimes. It's a different ball game and you have to use different techniques and tactics and even study the fish before you ever throw the 1st thing to them. But I bet you can get one to eat if all is aligned just right.


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## Backwater

Here's another good flick!






And a couple I'm sure you guys have already seen but a good flick to watch again!


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## sjrobin

Backwater said:


> Robin, the recommendation came directly to me from Andy Mills personally. Once he gave me "his go-to stick" to try (the Hardy Zephyrus SWS 11wt and in his case, the 1 piece) it almost gave me chills to throw it. Loved the over-size re-coil guides! He told me out of all the rods he's ever tarpon fished with and thrown, it is the best tarpon rod he's ever had, bar none! That comes from a 5 time Gold Cup winner. I think that says enough for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robin, make sure we keep in touch. I might be down there at the same time and we can get together and hook a few up. Time of year will be key where the fish will be.
> 
> So hey, what about all these big poons I keep hearing about in Texas where they catch them with **** pops and whatever? I bet you can get them to eat a fly. I fly fish in waters much like that sometimes. It's a different ball game and you have to use different techniques and tactics and even study the fish before you ever throw the 1st thing to them. But I bet you can get one to eat if all is aligned just right.


Thank you for the rod recommendation and cool videos Ted. Man, you must be trying to fire me up on the Florida tarpon. There is a tarpon fishery here in the gulf, the passes, and jetties. Usually August, September, October. But you better have a solid boat, (25' Outrage is ideal) and be ready to go out to ten miles looking for them. The obstacles are off color water and short weather windows, sometimes just a few days per month. Silver King Adventures guides were some of the best at networking the migrating schools. These are deep water fish that sound fast and are usually caught drifting or trolling the pops sometimes with bait enticers. I have spent a lot of time in the gulf out to 90 miles in small boats starting in the days before GPS. My gulf days are over. No more bouncing around the gulf chasing fish. When I head down to ENP I will call you. I think I would enjoy fishing with you. My wife: "Don't you have six fly rods? "
"Why do you need to buy another one?" Me: "This is a special rod designed for the silver king. And seven is a lucky number."


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## Backwater

sjrobin said:


> Thank you for the rod recommendation and cool videos Ted. Man, you must be trying to fire me up on the Florida tarpon. There is a tarpon fishery here in the gulf, the passes, and jetties. Usually August, September, October. But you better have a solid boat, (25' Outrage is ideal) and be ready to go out to ten miles looking for them. The obstacles are off color water and short weather windows, sometimes just a few days per month. Silver King Adventures guides were some of the best at networking the migrating schools. These are deep water fish that sound fast and are usually caught drifting or trolling the pops sometimes with bait enticers. I have spent a lot of time in the gulf out to 90 miles in small boats starting in the days before GPS. My gulf days are over. No more bouncing around the gulf chasing fish. When I head down to ENP I will call you. I think I would enjoy fishing with you. My wife: "Don't you have six fly rods? "
> "Why do you need to buy another one?" Me: "This is a special rod designed for the silver king. And seven is a lucky number."



I guess you just have to look and wait for those windows. I have several spots in raging passes and offshore too, 5 to 6 miles out where they'll group up and show themselves up top, where if the weather aligns, calm seas and winds, moon phase, tides and other elements, I'll make a run for it. Then it can be hit or miss. But hey, that's fishing and what it's all about. But when it "hits" it's worth it all! If it doesn't hit, the fact that your out there is better than working or putzing around the house.


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## ifsteve

I like the tried and true method on explaining the number of fly rods to the wife - "just think of them like your shoes."


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## Blatattack

Scott s4s 12wt.
I heard the Meridian is amazing. Thrown it in an 8.


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## Backwater

Blatattack said:


> Scott s4s 12wt.
> I heard the Meridian is amazing. Thrown it in an 8.


It's hard to go wrong with a Scott. Yes I liked that 8wt Meridian 8wt too! But like you, haven't tried it the 12.


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## lemaymiami

-Got a night booking this evening (in less than ideal conditions - I'll be coming home sitting on a towel most likely.....). Our main target will be small tarpon -and we'll be sightfishing them under bridges or in dock lights between Miami Beach and Miami. The fish will average 20 to 40lbs (with an occasional much bigger fish to get all fired up about....). We'll be using an 8 or 9wt mostly - but will have a 10wt aboard for any bigger fish if we stumble onto one. We'll be looking at every fish we find (right behind them at close quarters under bridges - but at a distance if they're in a docklight). This is just a bit early for our winter tarpon in Biscayne Bay but my angler from Europe only has this weekend (and the rest of the winter to dream about returning if we hit it right....).


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## JaxLaxFish

sjrobin said:


> Thank you for the rod recommendation and cool videos Ted. Man, you must be trying to fire me up on the Florida tarpon. There is a tarpon fishery here in the gulf, the passes, and jetties. Usually August, September, October. But you better have a solid boat, (25' Outrage is ideal) and be ready to go out to ten miles looking for them. The obstacles are off color water and short weather windows, sometimes just a few days per month. Silver King Adventures guides were some of the best at networking the migrating schools. These are deep water fish that sound fast and are usually caught drifting or trolling the pops sometimes with bait enticers. I have spent a lot of time in the gulf out to 90 miles in small boats starting in the days before GPS. My gulf days are over. No more bouncing around the gulf chasing fish. When I head down to ENP I will call you. I think I would enjoy fishing with you. My wife: "Don't you have six fly rods? "
> "Why do you need to buy another one?" Me: "This is a special rod designed for the silver king. And seven is a lucky number."


If you listen to podcasts check out Capt Scott Graham on the itinerant angler podcast. It's a really interesting interview about how he was able to catch Texas tarpon in fairly shallow water with regularity blind casting.


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## sjrobin

JaxLaxFish said:


> If you listen to podcasts check out Capt Scott Graham on the itinerant angler podcast. It's a really interesting interview about how he was able to catch Texas tarpon in fairly shallow water with regularity blind casting.


Yes sir no doubt at the Port Aransas, Port Isabel, or Port Mansfield jettys with a good trolling motor and perfect weather. You could get lucky and even see a few tarpon rolling on the surface. If we want to blind cast I would use a Calcutta 400 or big Revo and a solid casting rod with lures. To me a lot more fun than blind casting a fly rod. Also you better be willing to mix it up with all the other jetty fisherman looking for other species. Not my style. I really do not want to see another boat fishing any where near me when we fly fish. When the weather is perfect for the jetty/surf tarpon the bay sight casting is exceptional. I like my chances in the laguna's and bays in those conditions.


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