# Tailing Loop Help!!



## Bonecracker (Mar 29, 2007)

Grew up in Atlanta and fly fishing for tarpon was always a dream of mine in the early 80's. So the first fly rod I learned to cast on was a Fenwick HMG 12Wt and this has had a big effect on my fly casting. Gary Merriman (Tarpon Toad) had a big influence on my fly casting and helped me a lot into becoming an adequate fly caster!! Fast forward and I still love to fly fish but struggle casting into the wind due to my "Tailing Loops"!! I have no problems double hauling but it seems like I put more power into my last forward stroke and that just wrecks my cast! Any thoughts??


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## LWalker (Aug 20, 2013)

I was having the same problem. You are likely changing something in your stroke during that last forward cast and "trying too hard".
This helped me


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## scissorhands (Apr 8, 2012)

Make sure your rod tip is traveling in a straight line as a concave path with cause a tailing loop.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

Bonecracker said:


> Grew up in Atlanta and fly fishing for tarpon was always a dream of mine in the early 80's. So the first fly rod I learned to cast on was a Fenwick HMG 12Wt and this has had a big effect on my fly casting. Gary Merriman (Tarpon Toad) had a big influence on my fly casting and helped me a lot into becoming an adequate fly caster!! Fast forward and I still love to fly fish but struggle casting into the wind due to my "Tailing Loops"!! I have no problems double hauling but it seems like I put more power into my last forward stroke and that just wrecks my cast! Any thoughts??


Everybody has done that, including Gary.

To successfully cast into the wind you need high line speed to increase momentum (mass times velocity) AND a tight loop to minimize drag caused by the wind pushing back on the cross sectional area of line presented in the loop.

A lifetime of doing anything from throwing a baseball to spin casting a zara spook trains us that distance (from momentum) is directly proportional to effort (acceleration) put into the throw or spin cast. However when you put a fly rod in your hand the fly rod absorbs much of the initial effort by the rod bending (loading). Because the rod is bending we don't feel proportionate resistance which really lets us overpower the rod while the line is still relatively still and even harder to accelerate. Remember back in physics that guy Newton saying objects at rest tend to stay at rest. (F=ma)

No matter how you skin it, you must learn to apply power in an increasing manner that allows time for the line to accelerate and the rod to load and just when you actually start feeling something proportional to your effort, STOP. You have loaded the rod, let the rod do its job and cast your line/fly.

Where you stop determines loop size by the elevation difference between where the rod tip was when it was loaded and where it is when it unloads. Its really a feel thing, but short low effort strokes make short cast, and long high effort strokes make long casts.

Your "tailing loop" comes from too high of a load on the rod (lower rod tip) at the beginning of the cast than when you finished. Stopping too short does this even if you don't overpower the cast.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

LWalker said:


> I was having the same problem. You are likely changing something in your stroke during that last forward cast and "trying too hard".
> This helped me


Peter Kutzer does a great job explaining fly casting. So view what he is saying and see if those are things you are doing or not.

There is another little know problem that happens that some people do that sometimes takes an instructor to observe you doing..... It's called "creep" or forward creep. Creeping is when you start the rod motion coming forward but you haven't fully committed making your casting stroke forward. So your hand drifts forward "or creeps" some before you start to accelerate. That will almost shock the rod and therefore, cause the line loop on itself.











Next is delayed rotation. So people will start rotating your hand too soon as you come forward. Then they will try to snap it at the end and punch it out. Again, that will cause tailing issues. Try working on "delayed rotation." So you come forward with the rod still pointing back and just before you stop the rod, you rotate your wrist and then stop. Like this.... \ \ \ \ \ /

Next, when you come to your stop (on each side), drift your hand a bit. So stop short and abruptly and then drift you hand with the cast some after the stop (and even allow a little line to slip out a little more). This will help your cast to fully unroll out. Remember, you are doing a smooth acceleration to an abrupt stop, then drift.

Try lifting your back cast up higher and the straight line your rod tip travels is slightly lower on the front cast. Remember, as you stop your rear cast, your hand drifts back higher. When you come forward, your hand snaps over, (like slinging paint off a paint brush going forward) and then your hand drifts slightly lower as you shoot it out.






Big thing to remember, once the rod is loaded on your back cast, there is no reason to punch it out on your forward cast. Let your loaded rod, coupled with a good "inline" haul at your normal forward momentum, be your shooting cast. Punching it out only over powers the rod which does more than tailing loops.

Also, some people throw a nice high overhead loop on their back cast and then try to punch it out high on their forward shoot. That is a way to create that concave casting stroke that Peter explains in that video.

Your forward cast should be 180 degrees (on both the horizontal and vertical planes) from your back cast. Your final forward cast should be determined by your back cast being aligned to where you want the final cast to go.

On a side note, I cut my teeth on a Fenwick HMG back in the day. Funny thing is, they have recently brought that rod back with big improvements and was on the YSA 8wt Shootout report for 2016 and did fairly well.

Ted Haas


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Just to add more to this last reply, not just for you, but for anyone who is viewing this thread, here are some more tips that can help solve some casting problems with loops that causes tailing loops which also causes wind knots in your tippet, as well as casting into the wind.

As I said above, a straight rod tip path is essential to throwing a nice tight loops for throwing in and around the wind. The rod tip path has got to be straight on a vertical plane, as well as the horizontal plane. It is also important to allow that line to fully roll out on each forward and back cast. This will allow a proper transfer of line energy and speed to not only load the rod properly, but sends the line back out with the highest line speed possible. That will also help you to false cast less since you are efficiently loading the rod in the shortest amount of work possible.



Remember, if you are side casting to keep your line down low to avoid wind problems or avoid hitting the guy on the poling platform behind you, those rules still apply, whereas your rod tip still has to travel on a straight path both vertically and horizontal plane. As Chris Meyers illistraights in this next video, how your casting hand travels on those planes reflects how your rod tip will travel, in an exaggerated way. To check your hand travels on both of those paths, take your butt section of your rod and slowly trace a horizontal line on your wall with your elbow down to your side. Do that for a short stroke (for short casts) and a longer stroke (for longer casts),

In Chris Myers vids below, he shows where the back cast should be slightly higher on the back cast and slightly lower on the front cast.
















Your angle of your rod tip path will help throw into the wind. Casting into the wind, your rod tip plane should be higher in the back and lower in the front. With the wind behind you, it's the opposite where your back casts are low and your front cast are higher.






Lastly, understand power application throughout your casting stroke.



Power must be applied smoothly and should just be your final stroke and let go, not trying to power the line out there like you are slinging a lead weight from a spinning rod (like a lot of people do).






Remember, through the smoothly accelerated cast, you continue pointing the rod back behind you and just as you come to your abrupt stop, you then rotate your wrist over (in an in-line fashion with your rod tip travel path) like holding a paint brush up, full of water or paint, and then slinging it at your target at the stop (like in the Tim Rajeff vid up above in my previous reply). Again, it looks like something like this..... \ \ \ \ \ /

What I like to tell people on their back cast is imagine holding a styrofoam cup of hot coffee in your casting hand, traveling on your casting plane and then tossing/ slinging out the hot coffee over your shoulder straight out behind you without spilling any of it on your shoulders or back. That is the wrist rotation going on on your back cast. Again.... \ \ \ \ \ \ / This all helps to form those tight loops. The key is delayed hand rotation and the end of each stroke.

Lefty Krey once said try hitting your rod tip with your fly as you you start each side of the cast. By default, that will also cause your loops to lighten up.

Lastly, in-line dbl hauling is key to transferring the energy straight through to your line, through your rod. Where that hauling hand is place can be a big determining factor on if the extra line speed created by the hauling is transferred correctly.

Here's one last video by Chris Meyers that describes a common mistake when hauling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Miy8Uwuai18


I hope this all helps! 

Good luck!

Ted Haas


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

....one more thing I forgot to mention about casting into the wind that can cause unexpected tailing loops is that the wind helps your back cast go much faster with little deceleration until your rod stops it. You can drift all the way back to straight and it will feel like the rod is loading, but it is impossible to load a rod that is straight in line with the line. Try "catching" your back cast with the rod before starting your forward cast OR soften your back cast and let the wind make it feel normal.


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## ZisMe (Sep 29, 2014)

Great thread and info. Thanks guys.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

You are likely getting the tailing loop from trying to push your forward stroke in one fast motion, almost lIke you are whipping the rod forward. Its a combo of that and being out of tempo and not letting your back cast load your rod fully before starting your forward cast.

Instead let your rod load fully and when you initiate your last forward stroke let it build in speed. Still fast but let it graduate in speed to a nice crisp stop.

It's easy to try and force your cast in the wind. When you force it and try and muscle the rod rather than letting it load properly and do the work for you that's when problems happen. 

We are all guilty of it from time to time. When it happens to me I just have to remind myself to slow down.


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## Ken T (Dec 10, 2015)

This is a great thread and I am quite impressed by how well you guys are breaking down the physics of the cast.
Most of the discussion however has settled in the realm of trouble shooting the issues that experienced / accomplished fly casters encounter.

I troubleshoot fly casts every day and find the most common issue by far is wrist bend. Many novice or recreational anglers who only gets out occasionally battle this problem all day. .Every flex of the wrist pulls the rod tip off of plane. It is a tough habit to break because most fishing trips never provide enough casting action to develop or change muscle memory. Additionally casting practice is only marginally helpful if you are practicing alone. Everyone has heard the old saying that practice makes perfect. That is not true in the realm of developing or changing muscle memory. To accomplish this only "perfect" practice makes improvement. Perfect practice is difficult to accomplish without a neutral set of eyes.

Trying to change or improve any of the more complicated aspects that have been discussed should not be attempted of introduced unless you are fairly certain that your wrist is tight and the travel of your casting stroke is staying on plane.

I would also like to point out to those who are looking to diagnose issues with their casting need to have a clear focus on their end game. There is such a dramatic difference between professionals in the fly casting world. If your goal is to catch more fish and improve you trips on the water then get your casting advice from guides or great anglers If you want a bunch of certifications then you will spend a lot of time on the lawn.

Many great fly casters can do some impressive things on the lawn with targets and distance but you put them in front of a moving fish in a moving boat and they struggle to consistently put the fly in front of the fish.

I will finish up this post with a brief explanation of the first thing that I work on with every new angler who books a trip with us. If you can accomplish this simple thing it will steeply cut the learning curve for beginners and make an experienced casters line really pop. Additionally where I start is rarely ever discussed.

When I get a new angler the first thing I look at is their grip on the cork. Most of the time I can predict how they will cast just by the grip. Most everyone who has wrist bend, poor travel path and tailing loops has a compact grip When you observe their grip it looks similar to making a fist with the rod stuck in the middle.

Think about what would happen if you stowed your rod tied down with only a thin bungee around the cork and then took off into heavy chop. The tip would be waving around in every direction and the narrow anchor point would have little control over the whole length. The same is true of the tight compact grip. The compact grip has little control as load increases. This grip also allows for maximum flexion of the wrist both bad and good.

I look to get my clients to lengthen their grips on the cork. If you can comfortably hold your rod with the outside edge of your pinky finger down by the reel seat and your thumb or fore finger close to the tip of the rod you will maximize your control of the rod. This grip will also cut down on the flexion of your wrist. Extending the grip is the quickest route to breaking the wrist bend habit and developing the correct muscle memory.

It may be difficult to envision exactly what I am talking about without seeing it but here is another way of looking at it. Try gripping your cork with just your bottom 3 fingers firmly in the concave cutout low on the grip Your thumb and forefinger should be well above the bump. Your forefinger should be loose for line management and your thumb fully extended and in line with the rod blank.

If you are suffering from tailing loops or find your casts collapsing past a certain distance give this a try. You should see instant progress, tighter loops and increased line speed. This is what penetrates wind.

One last thing. If you do have a compact grip this is going to feel very uncomfortable at first. You will also feel a few muscles you didn't know you had.

KT


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Ken T said:


> This is a great thread and I am quite impressed by how well you guys are breaking down the physics of the cast.
> Most of the discussion however has settled in the realm of trouble shooting the issues that experienced / accomplished fly casters encounter.
> 
> I troubleshoot fly casts every day and find the most common issue by far is wrist bend. Many novice or recreational anglers who only gets out occasionally battle this problem all day. .Every flex of the wrist pulls the rod tip off of plane. It is a tough habit to break because most fishing trips never provide enough casting action to develop or change muscle memory. Additionally casting practice is only marginally helpful if you are practicing alone. Everyone has heard the old saying that practice makes perfect. That is not true in the realm of developing or changing muscle memory. To accomplish this only "perfect" practice makes improvement. Perfect practice is difficult to accomplish without a neutral set of eyes.
> ...


Ken,

I'm under the assumption that Bonecracker is a fairly seasoned saltwater fly caster, hence the reason for my replies towards technical errors he might be experiencing, as oppose to diagnosing errors in basic fundamental casting principles. Wrist attitudes is always a point of controversy with casters and instructors, depending on where and what the uses are for or not. I'm not referring to blainten novice wrist breaking either.

I do agree with you about the perfect practice. Not everyone has the ability to get with someone to help identify issues they maybe having and have that person give them a proper fix for the problem.

Like a broken record, I always seem to continue to say the same ole thing about practice casting, whereas one needs to go back in their head and go over the list of proper and precise things they need to do (like a pilot checklist before takeoff) throughout their entire casting stroke (again, in their head BEFORE they start their practice casting), so they continue to fine tune their muscle memory. So yes, if they ever got with a good instructor to evaluate and show them what they need to do to correct problems, then incorporate those items into the checklist before they practice. Then a good practice shouldn't be more than 10mins, just in cast there is a bad habit that creeps in without you noticing, which could imbed into muscle memory. So the short practice sessions, even if it's on a lawn, helps force someone into continually conducting (as you would say) perfect practice, until if becomes 2nd nature through muscle memory.

You bring up a good point about being too tight on your grip. I too like to point out that tight rod gripping keeps the rod from flowing properly, feeling it load and being able to lightly put snap into the "rotation and stop" by simply squeezing the lower fingers back and allowing it to pivot between your thumb and index finger. 

The grip you described is more of one that we use where you point your index finger works better on the halfwells grip with rods like a 6wt and under, but not so good for fullwells grips like in most saltwater rods. So I will also show that the same concept can be applied with the thumb is to the side (instead of on top) and the index finger is rolled back on the opposite side of the grip from the thumb, sometimes called the "V Grip!". That is simpler to spread your grip out longer across the grip than thumb-on-top.






Bruce's V Grip demo above is a little too tight for what I like to show people. But that grip can add an extra element into finding the right grip when needed. So what I'm explaining is a lightly held V grip with a relaxed and spread grip can make a lot of difference in many situations and is also an easier form of fly casting with less hand fatigue.

So the tight grip on the handle makes for too intense and stiff fly casting, which causes a variety of long term issues, one of which can cause that person to over punch it out on that final shoot.

Ted


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## Ken T (Dec 10, 2015)

Ted


Backwater said:


> Ken,
> 
> I'm under the assumption that Bonecracker is a fairly seasoned saltwater fly caster, hence the reason for my replies towards technical errors he might be experiencing, as oppose to diagnosing errors in basic fundamental casting principles. Wrist attitudes is always a point of controversy with casters and instructors, depending on where and what the uses are for or not. I'm not referring to blainten novice wrist breaking either.
> 
> ...


Ted,

Great information that you posted. I thought it was pretty clever how you demonstrated the progression of the cast with the keyboard slashes. Spot on advice.

I found the video demonstration by Bruce of the V grip quite informative. I have had some guides on my staff that are FFF Instructors and they were big on that grip a while back. I think that Bruce explained it well. The cameraman had a good visual on the grip and how has hand was positioned and spread along the cork.

I have pretty small hands and I find this grip a bit uncomfortable and difficult to control. I think it is best suited for guys with really big hands, When executed correctly however is sure does speed things up.

Thanks for posting the video clips.

KT


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Ken T said:


> Ted
> 
> 
> Ted,
> ...


Thanks Ken for the comments! I kinda like that keyboard slashing thing too, if that's the only way you can show someone via writing what needs to happen without showing them in person or in a video. 

An ole Loomis rep named Jack Montague, back eons ago, that is also a very deliberate fly casting instructor showed me that grip which he considered it more of a pistol grip position when holding a pistol. I modify it slightly to what a steelheader once showed me where the thumb lays towards the top and just to the side rather than down the side further. I feel it gives you a little more control. So if Bruce's grip is a V Grip, mine is more of a modified V Grip. All that being said, I still use the thumb on top position as well. I guess it just depends on what I'm doing. For the smaller rods from 5wt down on a halfwells or cigar style grip, it's back to my modified V Grip or the finger on top like you do. Btw, being able to palm a basketball when I was a teen helped a "spread out grip" be more natural for me. 

For any of you old guys locally out there around W & SW FL that's been around, you may have heard of Jack Montague (last name pronounced "Montay") and may have had some instructions by him (he's been around for a long time). Yes he's very rough around the edges and has his very particular and precise way of casting, which goes against the grain of FFF's approach to fly casting (their's sort of a Joan Wulff style). He's very matter of fact that his way is the best way.  So that get's some people on edge about his methods of teaching. But he does have some very good things that can be incorporated into your casting if you think back. Not saying I would throw a lamb into the wolf's den either! Lol (inside joke). But I'm one of those people that can pick out the good and take the other with a grain of salt.  

To any other of you Floridians out there who are looking, there are many good and even great fly casting instructors I can recommend in various areas around the state. Just drop me a PM and I'll look into for you, if you don't have one who's recommended by you local fly shop. I got connections! 

Ok sorry, I got off topic... lol Ken, if you ever met Bruce Chard, he's a very intense and tense caster (I've thrown a line with him before). So his grip and casting style still is a little too intense for me. You'll find that I am a lot more relaxed with my approach and style of casting and tend to like to do things the easy way if given the chance. So going back to a more relaxed casting stroke and the way one holds and handles the rod makes the whole experience that much more pleasurable IMO and seems to work things out with your loops (talking to "Bonecracker" now), the winds and everything else about the trip. Hey you're out there to have fun and relax. Translate that to every aspect throughout the trip (from the boat handling, your approached to the fish, your casting, the way you present your flies, they way you fight the fish and handle them at the boat, the way you behave around your buddies and deal with issues, make the whole thing work out for the "better" in the end. I promise you! 

Hey Ken, many thanks for your input! PM me when you make it down after the holidays and we'll go wet a line and seaduce some fish! lol


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

One last thing I forgot to mention about tailing loops and wind knots. If you top the rod short and UNDER power the cast (as Santa demonstrates below), that can also cause the the leader and the tip of your flyline to drag below the loop, thereby causing it to "tail."




Merry Christmas!


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## Ken T (Dec 10, 2015)

Backwater said:


> Thanks Ken for the comments! I kinda like that keyboard slashing thing too, if that's the only way you can show someone via writing what needs to happen without showing them in person or in a video.
> 
> An ole Loomis rep named Jack Montague, back eons ago, that is also a very deliberate fly casting instructor showed me that grip which he considered it more of a pistol grip position when holding a pistol. I modify it slightly to what a steelheader once showed me where the thumb lays towards the top and just to the side rather than down the side further. I feel it gives you a little more control. So if Bruce's grip is a V Grip, mine is more of a modified V Grip. All that being said, I still use the thumb on top position as well. I guess it just depends on what I'm doing. For the smaller rods from 5wt down on a halfwells or cigar style grip, it's back to my modified V Grip or the finger on top like you do. Btw, being able to palm a basketball when I was a teen helped a "spread out grip" be more natural for me.
> 
> ...



Ted,

I have met Jack a few times at the winter FF Shows. An interesting cat for sure. He has a bit of a connection to the old time Trout guys in my town. 

He an I both share a common interest. We both grow genetic hackle birds and the last time we were together that is what we were BSing about.

KT


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