# Hell's Bay - Used Skiff Price Decline



## DeepSouthFly

I think the value is still there, just people aren't going to pay sticker price for a 2 year old skiff when they can go get one built for a little more money, so the seller is kinda forced to come down if he wants to sell his boat. Just my opinion though. 

I really like the Drake Nomad. That's a sweet skiff. But they ain't cheap either.


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## Smackdaddy53

Ed and I drove from my house in Victoria, Texas to Miami for that 17.8 then dropped it off at Islamarine to have quite a bit of work done to it. I doubt we would make a ~3200 mile round trip in 72 hours for any other used skiff.


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## DeepSouthFly

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Ed and I drove from my house in Victoria, Texas to Miami for that 17.8 then dropped it off at Islamarine to have quite a bit of work done to it. I doubt we would make a ~3200 mile round trip in 72 hours for any other used skiff.


Which one of yall bought that green one? That was a good deal.


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## Smackdaddy53

DeepSouthFly said:


> Which one of yall bought that green one? That was a good deal.


Ed did


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## crboggs

Hell's Bay still sets the skiff standard but the market does ultimately set the price.

I sold my flats boat a few years ago expressly to buy a tiller / tunnel. At that time it looked like the best option would be to wait for an older used Whipray to pop up on the market and hope I could snag it before someone else did.

While waiting, I became aware of Spear through a local contact and Sabine via this site. And then I lucked into a Spear opportunity before it was listed for sale online. My buying that Spear means one less guy waiting for the next Whipray to land in the used market.

Its basic supply & demand...always is...


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## DeepSouthFly

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Ed did


Yeah that skiff is in great shape. I would rather have an older model HB than a newer one. I feel like they were made lighter.


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## SomaliPirate

I'm hoping it stays that way, as I'm going to be in the market for a Guide in the next year or so. If anybody sees a deal on a side console tunnel, let me know.


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## DeepSouthFly

crboggs said:


> Hell's Bay still sets the skiff standard but the market does ultimately set the price.
> 
> I sold my flats boat a few years ago expressly to buy a tiller / tunnel. At that time it looked like the best option would be to wait for an older used Whipray to pop up on the market and hope I could snag it before someone else did.
> 
> While waiting, I became aware of Spear through a local contact and Sabine via this site. And then I lucked into a Spear opportunity before it was listed for sale online. My buying that Spear means one less guy waiting for the next Whipray to land in the used market.
> 
> Its basic supply & demand...always is...


That's exactly right. Market, and the fact that there rarely are many used HB's for sale. Spear is a great boat. My buddy has one and it's a awesome skiff. We crossed some big water one day and she kept us pretty dry for the conditions. And poling it is like poling a kayak.


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## DeepSouthFly

SomaliPirate said:


> I'm hoping it stays that way, as I'm going to be in the market for a Guide in the next year or so. If anybody sees a deal on a side console tunnel, let me know.


I don't think I've ever seen a side console guide. lol that's gonna be a hard boat to find. There is one for sale on craigslist in New Smyrna Beach. I think it's a guide but I'm not sure. Saw it the other day.


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## kylet

I think the depreciation costs you are seeing more of now is more tied to whats on the boat than the actual hull. The actual hulls hold their value quite well. That's why you see 15-20 year old boat/motor/trailers sell for 30K+.

Take for example a Marquesa. I'd guess a price for a base boat motor trailer brand new is 52K-54K. Say that comes with a 90 (that's 9K). Ramlin Trailer (7K-8K). So you got a hull that is somewhere between 35K-39K. 10 years from now, if that boat is in pristine condition, 40K is common. If the hull shows a little wear, 35K. Well a 10 year old 90 is now worth about 1.5K-2K. A 10 year old ramlin is worth about 2K. Your hull did not depreciate.

The biggest change is the rising cost of the engines and trailers which will always depreciate. Add to that all the gadgets that you add at 2 and 3K a pop that you will never see a return on.


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## el9surf

DeepSouthFly said:


> Yeah that skiff is in great shape. I would rather have an older model HB than a newer one. I feel like they were made lighter.


I have had old and new HB's and the weight difference isn't as big of a deal as everyone makes it out to be. There isn't really much of a noticeable difference poling my newer waterman in comparison to my 2001 17.8. The ride and rock solid feeling is noticable in favor of the newer skiff.


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## SomaliPirate

DeepSouthFly said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a side console guide. lol that's gonna be a hard boat to find. There is one for sale on craigslist in New Smyrna Beach. I think it's a guide but I'm not sure. Saw it the other day.


Did I mention that I'd prefer a 2 stroke on it as well? I'm basically looking for a unicorn. I'm starting to think I might have to go with a new build but I'm afraid to call HB and ask what that would set me back.


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## commtrd

SomaliPirate said:


> Did I mention that I'd prefer a 2 stroke on it as well? I'm basically looking for a unicorn. I'm starting to think I might have to go with a new build but I'm afraid to call HB and ask what that would set me back.


Yep not for the faint of heart...


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## not2shabby

It is an interesting thing. Side-by-side, I would rather spend mid-20s on a 15 year old HB than spend mid-30s, 40s, 50s PLUS on a new BT, EC, or HB. I think you can find some great deals if you're patient. $16k to $24k can get you a really nice skiff right now.


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## commtrd

Partial to the newer ones myself...


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## ifsteve

I agree that the hulls don't lose value as much as the things on it. Especially for much older boats. Motor and electronics technologies have improved so much the last handful of years that an older skiff that hasn't been updated has just less of a market.


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## DeepSouthFly

SomaliPirate said:


> Did I mention that I'd prefer a 2 stroke on it as well? I'm basically looking for a unicorn. I'm starting to think I might have to go with a new build but I'm afraid to call HB and ask what that would set me back.


https://daytona.craigslist.org/boa/d/hells-bay-guide-series/6590481401.html

check this out.


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## SomaliPirate

DeepSouthFly said:


> https://daytona.craigslist.org/boa/d/hells-bay-guide-series/6590481401.html
> 
> check this out.


Wow basically brand new power too.


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## not2shabby

DeepSouthFly said:


> https://daytona.craigslist.org/boa/d/hells-bay-guide-series/6590481401.html
> 
> check this out.


What is a "builders series" HB?


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## DeepSouthFly

not2shabby said:


> What is a "builders series" HB?


I have no clue.


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## hferrell87

I think the value is going to be based a lot of how well kept the skiff was, in addition to supply/demand... I've seen some ultra clean older 18 ft HB's & Gordon's sell for low to mid 30's, while one's with more TLC needed selling for a good chunk less. The one's that are priced right with being clean sell immidiately. Just my .02 cents


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## hferrell87

Also, trailer condition (Ramlin) and outboard can move the price either way, depending on their condition.


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## TheAdamsProject

Yes if everything is in order and clean 28k-30k is still common for the various 17.8 boats. I see a number of them that have some cheap non-ramlin trailer or has items that need to be addressed that will lower the price but if you want it right, you need to spend a little money to fix those items and your bottom line will end up in the 28k range. It seems some of the ones in the 38k-45k range don't move as fast maybe due to financing/cash on hand. If you have 40K cash you might just have the full asking price of a new one and just have one built. Or if you want to finance it is probably easier to finance a brand new one than a used 40k one. I am just thinking out loud here and by no means a banking or finance expert.


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## LowHydrogen

DeepSouthFly said:


> That's exactly right. Market, and the fact that there rarely are many used HB's for sale. Spear is a great boat. My buddy has one and it's a awesome skiff. We crossed some big water one day and she kept us pretty dry for the conditions. And poling it is like poling a kayak.


Great day for testing a skiff, and losing push poles, ...bad day for fishing lol.


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## Ruddy Duck LA

This is a testament to the increased quality of the numerous competitors whose new boats sell for the same price as a used HB.


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## C_Wheeler

DeepSouthFly said:


> https://daytona.craigslist.org/boa/d/hells-bay-guide-series/6590481401.html
> 
> check this out.


Bottom paint...? That's a bummer.


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## el9surf

I wonder how the water quality issues that are plaguing FL are affecting demand compared to past years. It would be interesting to know whether many of the big dogs are even operating at full production levels. My guess is that same issue is likely having an influence on the used market leading to excess supply and reduced demand. Boating is less appealing when the water is filled with turds.


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## EdK13

All I know is I pulled the trigger on what I decided that I wanted at this time. It was between the 17.8 tunnel, hpxt, undiscovered unicorn guide tunnel and a couple texas cats that were eliminated early on in my decision process. Went 16 year old 17.8 with a tunnel because the old lighter ones are getting harder to find in decent shape and I just always liked them. I like the new ones too and they definitely look really nice and definitely ride a bit better. Heck I was tempted pursue a nice gray one that was listed here till the owner down Corpus way regained his sanity. (BTW I hope to start seeing that bad boy out more ....) So, here we are.. I am going to dump some money into this skiff via Islamarine, experiment, enjoy, try it out for awhile and see how it goes. This time next year I might be in a Yellowfin Carbon 24 or one of Floyds new 10 WT skiffs, which I think is an awesome design by the way .. who knows. 

What I do know is anyone thinking a money eating powered hole in the water that spends quality time connected to a metal corrosion trap on wheels is an investment of any sort needs to get a better financial adviser and/or have their heads checked.. it just aint so. Its a toy and, in the current market, if you want it bad enough you will pay the price or someone else eventually will. 

What happened recently with skiff prices was demand driven. There just were not enough to satisfy angler demand and now maybe its adjusting a bit or maybe not. Hell I gave up predicting markets long ago because its nearly impossible to do. They are crazy- like fishermen. 

Bottom line: I could have had anything I wanted and went used because of smackdaddy . See how it goes.


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## Zika

Enjoy the "new" ride. At least you have a scapegoat if it doesn't work out.


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## POCtied

Ed I think you made a great decision on that one, pretty positive you're going to be happy


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## Capnredfish

Sorry if someone has already said it. Too many other good skiffs built today. That drives down cost of used and or overpriced since you other options. More than a decade ago HB was the skiff to have


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## Tx_Whipray

I think it's kind of like muscle cars...Some models and years just have an intrinsic value others don't. Any of the original Morejohn built boats will be more valuable than say, a boat that was built in the "dark days" after Tom Gordon left. I also think the post above about the hulls not really depreciating is on point. When I was thinking about selling mine, I had a verbal agreement to sell it for about $1,500 more than I paid for it used in 2003...with a bad powerhead and a rusted out trailer. But mine is a Morejohn built hull, and the buyer was going to ship it straight to Isla Marine and have it completely redone, repowered, and put on a new trailer. Even with that expense, he would have had a better than new boat with a unique history for probably 20K cheaper than a new Whipray classic. He told me that himself, BTW. 

I think the real value for buyers and sellers of the classic Morejohn and Gordon built boats is to buy or sell them as-is. If you're selling, don't spend a bunch of money fixing up a bunch of stuff that isn't going to add value and the new owner might not want anyway. Most people looking for one of those skiffs know what they are looking for and are willing to take it warts and all because they have their own restoration plans. It seems like the only guys that really "lose" money on an old HB are the guys that spend a small fortune on a refit then try to get it all back when they sell it. As stated above, the value is in the hull...not the stuff hanging off/under it.


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## EdK13

Tx_Whipray said:


> I think it's kind of like muscle cars...Some models and years just have an intrinsic value others don't. Any of the original Morejohn built boats will be more valuable than say, a boat that was built in the "dark days" after Tom Gordon left. I also think the post above about the hulls not really depreciating is on point. When I was thinking about selling mine, I had a verbal agreement to sell it for about $1,500 more than I paid for it used in 2003...with a bad powerhead and a rusted out trailer. But mine is a Morejohn built hull, and the buyer was going to ship it straight to Isla Marine and have it completely redone, repowered, and put on a new trailer. Even with that expense, he would have had a better than new boat with a unique history for probably 20K cheaper than a new Whipray classic. He told me that himself, BTW.
> 
> I think the real value for buyers and sellers of the classic Morejohn and Gordon built boats is to buy or sell them as-is. If you're selling, don't spend a bunch of money fixing up a bunch of stuff that isn't going to add value and the new owner might not want anyway. Most people looking for one of those skiffs know what they are looking for and are willing to take it warts and all because they have their own restoration plans. It seems like the only guys that really "lose" money on an old HB are the guys that spend a small fortune on a refit then try to get it all back when they sell it. As stated above, the value is in the hull...not the stuff hanging off/under it.


Well said and supported by advice from my old friends in Florida.


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## POCtied

I'd love to get back into one of the Morejohn/Gordon skiffs one day with a tunnel, till then I'll be cruising comfortably on this heavy ass 18


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## EdK13

POCtied said:


> Ed I think you made a great decision on that one, pretty positive you're going to be happy


Thanks man - definitely looking forward to fishing it back from Florida and getting on some quality fish. Maybe do a Texas skiff meet up somewhere. Soon.


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## Tx_Whipray

The Texas owners tournament is usually in the fall, but I haven't heard anything about one this year. Last year I wanted to go, but I got offered a free week on the Roaring Fork to fish streamers for big browns...Sorry, not sorry.


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## Smackdaddy53

At the end of the day they are all just boats and it’s the people on them that catch the fish. I know guys that have fished out of the same 17’ aluminum flat bottom for 30 years that fish circles around 90% of the guppies I see running boats that cost as much as a house. I used to think it was about fishing but beginning to wonder about that these days.


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## EdK13

Tx_Whipray said:


> The Texas owners tournament is usually in the fall, but I haven't heard anything about one this year. Last year I wanted to go, but I got offered a free week on the Roaring Fork to fish streamers for big browns...Sorry, not sorry.


You want tournament ... are you threatening me?


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## SomaliPirate

My wife drew a HB logo on the side of my last skiff with a sharpie. I got $600 for it when I sold it so I'd say that was a good return on my investment.


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## EdK13

SomaliPirate said:


> My wife drew a HB logo on the side of my last skiff with a sharpie. I got $600 for it when I sold it so I'd say that was a good return on my investment.


Dang. You did good on that $ 2 'magic' sharpie...


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## SomaliPirate

EdK13 said:


> Dang. You did good on that $ 2 'magic' sharpie...


I give full credit to my wife's artistic skills, though the push pole looked a little phallic.


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## bugslinger

DeepSouthFly said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a side console guide. lol that's gonna be a hard boat to find. There is one for sale on craigslist in New Smyrna Beach. I think it's a guide but I'm not sure. Saw it the other day.


A buddy of mine has/had an 01 guide side console. Great boat.


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## Net 30

I can speak from first hand experience about the value of used _"Classic Years"_ HBs. I owned a 2001 17.8 Whipray, side console, ventilated tunnel, pristine aluminum RamLin, 60 hp Yamaha with 400 hours, mint condition skiff. This was the personal skiff of Ted Tuner of CNN and his son Beau. Prior to listing it for sale 11 months ago - I had offers every couple months for $32-$35k but I had no intention of selling it.

I thought a sale price of $32k was a slam dunk. Well, months and months went buy and not 1 offer to purchase....._dayuuum_. The skiff finally sold for $28k and I was happy to take the offer. IMO, the recent builds like the EC EVOx, Beavertail Mosquito, Cayo 18 have put a serious crimp in what the older HBs now sell for. You can buy a hi-tech infused or bagged built, 0-hour skiff with new electronics for the same price or less than a 17-18 year old HB. No worries about old wiring, pitted fuel cells, oyster scratched bottoms, leaking caps, old gauges etc.

I considered having a new Marquesa built but the price was north of $70k...yikes. One ride on the EVOx convinced me that it was a respectable replacement for my beloved 17.8 and a lot more versatile too.

I was contacted by a few guys with classic HBs looking to sell & asking advice for what $ to list their skiff. When I told them my story they all thought they could hold out for the low to mid $30s. Not one of them got what they expected. I think the wonder years of fast sales and high prices is over for good.


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## Capnredfish

Does this mean my B2 value drops as well?


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## sjrobin

Like any quality built product, HB skiffs will find a market limit, especially as the baby boomers that own most of them age and put the skiffs on the used market. Over the next ten years or so the skiff market will be saturated. Good deals everywhere. Another factor is a continued slow reduction of quality sight casting/poling water.


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## Dawhoo

It is really pretty simple supply and demand. For years micro skiffs were a novelty and only bought by those in certain areas who fished a lot..... 5-10 years ago more people entered the game. Guess what a large increase in supply greatly outnumber the relatively few used boats that had been manufactured in the preceding years. Over past 5 years more and more quality boats built easing the supply/demand mismatch. This lowers prices. It is not because people no longer desire HBs to the same degree...


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## Net 30

el9surf said:


> I wonder how the water quality issues that are plaguing FL are affecting demand compared to past years. It would be interesting to know whether many of the big dogs are even operating at full production levels. My guess is that same issue is likely having an influence on the used market leading to excess supply and reduced demand. Boating is less appealing when the water is filled with turds.


Absolutely. All the builders I spoke to in FL are very concerned about the demise of the FL Estuaries. A couple large builders are looking to increase market share in TX and SC.

I have home on the Indian River Lagoon in Indian River County FL and it's been on the market since March. Vis behind my house has been reduced to 4" at best. Used to be thousands of mullet flipp'n, pelicans crashing bait, dolphins pushing wakes along the seawalls etc. Water is now dead and brown.

Once I sell, I'm pulling up stakes, hooking up the skiff to the truck and heading somewhere North of Jacksonville and South of Charleston.


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## EdK13

Capnredfish said:


> Does this mean my B2 value drops as well?


Of course.


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## EdK13

Net 30 said:


> Absolutely. All the builders I spoke to in FL are very concerned about the demise of the FL Estuaries. A couple large builders are looking to increase market share in TX and SC.
> 
> I have home on the Indian River Lagoon in Indian River County FL and it's been on the market since March. Vis behind my house has been reduced to 4" at best. Used to be thousands of mullet flipp'n, pelicans crashing bait, dolphins pushing wakes along the seawalls etc. Water is now dead and brown.
> 
> One I sell, I'm pulling up stakes, hooking up the skiff to the truck and heading somewhere North of Jacksonville and South of Charleston.


Texas is full.


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## Stevie

not2shabby said:


> It is an interesting thing. Side-by-side, I would rather spend mid-20s on a 15 year old HB than spend mid-30s, 40s, 50s PLUS on a new BT, EC, or HB. I think you can find some great deals if you're patient. $16k to $24k can get you a really nice skiff right now.


Agree!


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## EdK13

sjrobin said:


> Like any quality built product, HB skiffs will find a market limit, especially as the baby boomers that own most of them age and put the skiffs on the used market. Over the next ten years or so the skiff market will be saturated. Good deals everywhere. Another factor is a continued slow reduction of quality sight casting/poling water.


More people, less good water.


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## Str8-Six

It’s about time. Maybe soon I can afford one.


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## eightwt

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I know guys that have fished out of the same 17’ aluminum flat bottom for 30 years that fish circles around 90% of the guppies I see running boats that cost as much as a house


Knowledge is the key to fishing success. You could put me in the latest and greatest, and I probably would catch some more fish, but not like most of the guys on this board who know their stuff. Knowing where the fish are trumps equipment every time.


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## mtoddsolomon

Net 30 said:


> Absolutely. All the builders I spoke to in FL are very concerned about the demise of the FL Estuaries. A couple large builders are looking to increase market share in TX and SC.
> 
> I have home on the Indian River Lagoon in Indian River County FL and it's been on the market since March. Vis behind my house has been reduced to 4" at best. Used to be thousands of mullet flipp'n, pelicans crashing bait, dolphins pushing wakes along the seawalls etc. Water is now dead and brown.
> 
> One I sell, I'm pulling up stakes, hooking up the skiff to the truck and heading somewhere North of Jacksonville and South of Charleston.


if my wife would let me I’d pack my stuff and move to Beaufort or bluffton tomorrow!


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## Stevie

not2shabby said:


> It is an interesting thing. Side-by-side, I would rather spend mid-20s on a 15 year old HB than spend mid-30s, 40s, 50s PLUS on a new BT, EC, or HB. I think you can find some great deals if you're patient. $16k to $24k can get you a really nice skiff right now.


I'm spoiled and lucky to be running 2 skiffs now that are both ends of the spectrum of this discussion. Chittum Laguna Madre (POC and south) and a barebones 1998 Whipray with no floor (mainly Galveston Bay, maybe East Matagorda). I'm very pleased with both and find they were both worth the money for their respective uses. In the process I've learned a) not to overpower skiffs (love the 50 Tohatsu on the Chittum and 25 Merc 2 stroke on the Whipray) and b) guide green is my favorite color (softest on the eyes).

As far as the market, there are so many exciting new builds available (has anyone checked out the Outlaw by Drake??). Lead times are shorter. Here in TX the impact of Harvey has meant a lot of boats have come to the market. Also in TX, there's an armada of Chittums coming and many anglers / guides are selling their old boats as a result. I've had a beautiful tunnel Gordon on the market for some time with barely any looks-- it's going to Florida in mid June to sell there, but suddenly there's interest here in TX....


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## EdK13

eightwt said:


> Knowledge is the key to fishing success. You could put me in the latest and greatest, and I probably would catch some more fish, but not like most of the guys on this board who know their stuff. Knowing where the fish are trumps equipment every time.


Rule #1: Fish where the fish are.


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## txredfly

DeepSouthFly said:


> Which one of yall bought that green one? That was a good deal.


I bought the white one from Net. Its now here in Corpus.


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## jsnipes

Net 30 said:


> I can speak from first hand experience about the value of used _"Classic Years"_ HBs. I owned a 2001 17.8 Whipray, side console, ventilated tunnel, pristine aluminum RamLin, 60 hp Yamaha with 400 hours, mint condition skiff. This was the personal skiff of Ted Tuner of CNN and his son Beau. Prior to listing it for sale 11 months ago - I had offers every couple months for $32-$35k but I had no intention of selling it.
> 
> I thought a sale price of $32k was a slam dunk. Well, months and months went buy and not 1 offer to purchase....._dayuuum_. The skiff finally sold for $28k and I was happy to take the offer. IMO, the recent builds like the EC EVOx, Beavertail Mosquito, Cayo 18 have put a serious crimp in what the older HBs now sell for. You can buy a hi-tech infused or bagged built, 0-hour skiff with new electronics for the same price or less than a 17-18 year old HB. No worries about old wiring, pitted fuel cells, oyster scratched bottoms, leaking caps, old gauges etc.
> 
> I considered having a new Marquesa built but the price was north of $70k...yikes. One ride on the EVOx convinced me that it was a respectable replacement for my beloved 17.8 and a lot more versatile too.
> 
> I was contacted by a few guys with classic HBs looking to sell & asking advice for what $ to list their skiff. When I told them my story they all thought they could hold out for the low to mid $30s. Not one of them got what they expected. I think the wonder years of fast sales and high prices is over for good.


This is a really well-informed post. Markets ebb and flow, one consideration here is that some of these newer entries, e.g. Cayo, were priced lower/more competitively than HBs. As demand for those has risen, the prices on those new builds going up considerably and it's no longer the case a new Cayo 180 or BT is going to be cheaper than a used HB. So, pendulum will continue to swing back to a new market equilibrium for a bit (IMO)


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## not2shabby

EdK13 said:


> What I do know is anyone thinking a money eating powered hole in the water that spends quality time connected to a metal corrosion trap on wheels is an investment of any sort needs to get a better financial adviser and/or have their heads checked.. it just aint so.


I agree that it's unwise to expect a boat to be an investment. I don't have a lot of money sitting around, so buying a skiff was a big deal. I would never buy a boat with money I need for anything else or with somebody else's money. However, I think a little bit of patience and sweat equity goes a long ways. A lot of the depreciating elements we're talking about can be taken care of with time and elbow grease - a rewire on the skiff, new axle and/or bearings for a trailer, new fuel lines, good maintenance on a motor, etc. My philosophy is "pay cash and add value" for any asset. I bought my first skiff, a Ranger Phantom, for...let's just say it was a great buy. I waited for the right deal and had cash ready when the right deal presented itself. I rewired the skiff, put on new lights, buffed the hull, added some creature comforts, and still made a nice profit on the sale even considering taxes, title, insurance, materials, and time. That's not always going to happen, but if you do things right you can get a hole in the water that eats less cash or maybe even gives you some back.

Not sure if this is quite as applicable to higher end skiffs, but I've already done a lot of work on my pro to make it a better skiff for me and hopefully hold some value.


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## Harlieb3

There are some better boats being built today vs 15 years ago but "IF" all is equal and I'm not saying it is, just open and close the hatches on an HB vs the rest. You'll see, feel and hear the difference.


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## Smackdaddy53

More boat builders need to offer true tunnels rigged correctly from the shop needing zero modification to function. I never understood why you would build only non tunnel hulls or just try to cut out and glass in a tunnel without building it with a raised transom to match. I guess it’s too much work for some of these newer manufacturers to offer both. I applaud the guys that aren’t scared to build a good tunnel skiff, it’s just a smart move if you plan on selling them to anyone in the market.


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## jonny

I got a 01 Guide O'Bannon model a few years a from a old rich guy in NC. He had a fleet of boats and used this the least. His mechanic said the only time it got run was when he would go get it and do the annual maintence. I stripped it to a bare hull pulled the tank without cutting the deck. The tank wasn't leaking but did have sme pitting starting on the bottom. So I had a new bottom welded on and the entire tank LineXd. Buffed the original gel coat to a mirror finish. And replaced all the hardware with new or better than original fittings. The trailer was kept in a garage. But I went ahead and replaced all wiring and added LEDs, new hubs,tires,ect..The cool thing is he had a folder with all the original info, brochures, receipts, ect. With Tom Gordon's name on a few things. Still has the original 60 Bigfoot that runs great. What you guys thinking a good price would be?


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## Net 30

mtoddsolomon said:


> if my wife would let me I’d pack my stuff and move to Beaufort or bluffton tomorrow!


Bluffton is at the top of the list....

If you wife won't move, I'm sure I'll have a guest room available for the occasional fishing foray with a fellow EVOx owner!


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## Financekid1

Price drop or not, I’m never getting rid of my Gordon waterman. Haven’t found anything that performs as good all around for what I need. Guess my son will be selling it for $5k


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## sjrobin

jonny said:


> View attachment 29873
> I got a 01 Guide O'Bannon model a few years a from a old rich guy in NC. He had a fleet of boats and used this the least. His mechanic said the only time it got run was when he would go get it and do the annual maintence. I stripped it to a bare hull pulled the tank without cutting the deck. The tank wasn't leaking but did have sme pitting starting on the bottom. So I had a new bottom welded on and the entire tank LineXd. Buffed the original gel coat to a mirror finish. And replaced all the hardware with new or better than original fittings. The trailer was kept in a garage. But I went ahead and replaced all wiring and added LEDs, new hubs,tires,ect..The cool thing is he had a folder with all the original info, brochures, receipts, ect. With Tom Gordon's name on a few things. Still has the original 60 Bigfoot that runs great. What you guys thinking a good price would be?


About 25K. The motor pulls it way down. Instant replacement.


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## Capnredfish

eightwt said:


> Knowledge is the key to fishing success. You could put me in the latest and greatest, and I probably would catch some more fish, but not like most of the guys on this board who know their stuff. Knowing where the fish are trumps equipment every time.


Not so quick. I know there is gold in the waters off Nome. However you might need the correct equipment to find it. Knowledge is important as is confidence. Some of that might come from the equipment you use.


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## Capnredfish

Perfect example. I can point out the redfish to hillbilly Willy. But if he does not think his 28ft pontoon can make it over the sand bar the knowledge was of no use. However I am confident my skiff can. So confidence played a big part in catching those reds while Willy watched.


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## K3anderson

Net 30 said:


> I thought a sale price of $32k was a slam dunk. Well, months and months went buy and not 1 offer to purchase....._dayuuum_. The skiff finally sold for $28k and I was happy to take the offer. IMO, the recent builds like the EC EVOx, Beavertail Mosquito, Cayo 18 have put a serious crimp in what the older HBs now sell for. You can buy a hi-tech infused or bagged built, 0-hour skiff with new electronics for the same price or less than a 17-18 year old HB. No worries about old wiring, pitted fuel cells, oyster scratched bottoms, leaking caps, old gauges etc.


I have on '02 HB and not a single spider crack anywhere. No structural issues at all. We don't know where all the "recent builds" will be in 20 years. They might be great.... We already know where the HB's will be....Still on the water. They were built that good.


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## Tx_Whipray

I wonder how the boats built after Tom left and before Chris Peterson bought the company are holding up. Anyone on here have one from that era? I read some horror stories on the Fla Sportsman board about some of those boats back in the day.


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## Sandalous

Net 30 said:


> I was contacted by a few guys with classic HBs looking to sell & asking advice for what $ to list their skiff. When I told them my story they all thought they could hold out for the low to mid $30s. Not one of them got what they expected. I think the wonder years of fast sales and high prices is over for good.


I've watched this trend for years now, and watched so many people refuse to admit it. The "gold standard" idea, the promise that they would not lose money on their boat years down the road, is gone. The market is flooded with newer boats at better prices. They are no longer the only company and hull design that can do what they do, and the sheer novelty of owning one for the sticker on the side is quickly becoming less of a selling point for most people looking for a skiff.


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## Tx_Whipray

I think the low interest / easy credit era squeezed a lot of depreciation out of the boat market in general, too. It was especially egregious here in Texas during the oil boom. Builders were raising prices 20% YoY every year, and as long as Jimmy could keep the monthly stabs below $xxx, mamma says it's okay!...Never mind that you'll still be paying for that boat when your kid graduates high school. It was breathtaking how many Texas builders were pumping out chop gun, splatter interior bay boats with 300 Pro XS outboards, 4,000 watt audio systems, and more LED lights than a New Orleans titter and getting $70,000+ with months long wait times. 

When the price of new goes up 20% every year, it's not hard to minimize your depreciation. Now that rates are creeping up, we'll see how long that party lasts.


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## SomaliPirate

I run the 1993 Firebird of skiffs; it can't really depreciate because it was a 17T to start with so there's nowhere to go but up.


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## crboggs

K3anderson said:


> I have on '02 HB and not a single spider crack anywhere.


Your '02 could have rolled out of the build shed yesterday. You're not allowed to sell it, ever.


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## Smackdaddy53

Sandalous said:


> I've watched this trend for years now, and watched so many people refuse to admit it. The "gold standard" idea, the promise that they would not lose money on their boat years down the road, is gone. The market is flooded with newer boats at better prices. They are no longer the only company and hull design that can do what they do, and the sheer novelty of owning one for the sticker on the side is quickly becoming less of a selling point for most people looking for a skiff.


Anyone that believes that a boat, vehicle or nearly anything else won’t depreciate as soon as they buy it is an idiot. As stated earlier, these aren’t investments unless you are a guide and it’s a tool that you use to make money.


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## Steve_Mevers

The high tech skiff market reminds me a lot of the Harley Davidson market back in the 90’s, now HD is struggling to survive.


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## Steve_Mevers

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Anyone that believes that a boat, vehicle or nearly anything else won’t depreciate as soon as they buy it is an idiot. As stated earlier, these aren’t investments unless you are a guide and it’s a tool that you use to make money.


If boats, campers and trucks were a good investiment, I would a very, very wealthy man...lol


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## fjmaverick

SomaliPirate said:


> I run the 1993 Firebird of skiffs; it can't really depreciate because it was a 17T to start with so there's nowhere to go but up.


That was my mentality with it when I bought mine. 
Picked up a center console one for 5k with a seized motor. Sold the motor for 1k and didn't feel any regrets.


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## el9surf

Some folks buy on price, some on function and others on quality. It's rare to find all of those in one build. I'm still not convinced there is anything better than my 18 waterman for what I do. Regardless of what I paid the boat fits my needs perfectly. Same goes for many of the other builders. Some cater on price point and those boats fit the needs of their buyer. 

Untill there is something else on the market that is heads and shoulders better I'm not worried about the value plummeting. With no intention of selling I guess it doesn't really matter. At this point most of the industry is still trying to copy HB in some way or another. When 3/4 of the poling skiffs on the market start to look like a variation of HB the innovation level has plateaued.


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## jmrodandgun

el9surf said:


> At this point most of the industry is still trying to copy HB in some way or another. When 3/4 of the poling skiffs on the market start to look like a variation of HB the innovation level has plateaued.


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## formerWAflyfisher

I recently purchased an 05 Marquesa for a really great price. Actually cheaper than I ever seen one, but I think that had more to do with the fact I had cash in hand and the seller needed cash quickly. I don’t think the market has softened at all. Look on here, boattrader etc how used HB come up for sale? At the most maybe a dozen of all models at any given time. Ussually about 5-6 are on the market at any given time. I think people are just starting to list more realistic prices because a few more boats a currently listed. Just because a boat was listed for a high number doesn’t mean that’s what it actually sold for. I have purchased 8 (Dolphin, Maverick, Hewes etc) skiffs since I moved hear in 08 and I’ve broke even or made money on all of them. The only boat I lost money on was a gheenoe I purchased new. Best deal I found was when the market was supposedly hot a few years ago I found a great condition maverick HP for 6k. Deals pop up you just have to have cash and move quickly.


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## formerWAflyfisher

Oh and as for quality. The HB is hands down the best. From the deck to the hatches the boat is absolutely rock solid. My maverick felt cheap in comparison. Although I think the current MBG products are a whole different animal


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## yobata

formerWAflyfisher said:


> I recently purchased an 05 Marquesa for a really great price. Actually cheaper than I ever seen one, but I think that had more to do with the fact I had cash in hand and the seller needed cash quickly. I don’t think the market has softened at all. Look on here, boattrader etc how used HB come up for sale? At the most maybe a dozen of all models at any given time. Ussually about 5-6 are on the market at any given time. I think people are just starting to list more realistic prices because a few more boats a currently listed. Just because a boat was listed for a high number doesn’t mean that’s what it actually sold for. I have purchased 8 (Dolphin, Maverick, Hewes etc) skiffs since I moved hear in 08 and I’ve broke even or made money on all of them. The only boat I lost money on was a gheenoe I purchased new. Best deal I found was when the market was supposedly hot a few years ago I found a great condition maverick HP for 6k. Deals pop up you just have to have cash and move quickly.


Why did you buy and sell 8 boats in 10 years?


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## formerWAflyfisher

Looking for the perfect boat. Besides how do you know what you like if you haven’t tried different options. Truthfully mostly because deals popped up and I like variety. But the last Maverick I sold I needed cash quick to fix damage from Irma.


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## EdK13

formerWAflyfisher said:


> Looking for the perfect boat. Besides how do you know what you like if you haven’t tried different options. Truthfully mostly because deals popped up and I like variety. But the last Maverick I sold I needed cash quick to fix damage from Irma.


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## el9surf

jmrodandgun said:


>


Don't like the truth?


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## jmrodandgun

el9surf said:


> Don't like the truth?


I don't like dopey dumb dumb nonsense about how everyone is copying hells bay. It's really stupid.


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## el9surf

jmrodandgun said:


> I don't like dopey dumb dumb nonsense about how everyone is copying hells bay. It's really stupid.


You get your feathers ruffled pretty easy. Dopey dumb nonsense would be failing to recognize and acknowledge all the borrowed or inspired morejohn ideas floating around in today's market. You don't have to like it but that's a fact. They work and everyone knows it.


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## Str8-Six

Why isn’t there a Chris Morejohn statue somewhere?


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## SomaliPirate

Str8-Six said:


> Why isn’t there a Chris Morejohn statue somewhere?


There was one in the town square, but some Antifa Chittum supporters had it torn down because it was fascist.


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## MariettaMike

I bought a 2014 Waterman in January 2017 with 400 hours for $39k, and sold it in January 2018 with 500 hours on it for $38k. I had put around $2000 into that boat for TM, GPS, and trailer upgrades. I attribute 100% of those costs to the engine and accessories. The boat didn't depreciate 1 cent as far as I'm concerned.

And as for Net30's experience selling his classic 2001 no liner tunnel hull with a guide chair I wasn't surprised he only got $28k for it. Offering to trade it for a 16 Waterman was a sign of weakness, and then letting EC sell it with a build underway was total surrender. I wouldn't totally blame the boat for the lower than expected selling price.

Heck just yesterday I saw a new side console Whip Classic with short shaft 50 Tohat ready for delivery in the HB showroom. So somebody thinks no liner Whips are still worth the money.


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## Ruddy Duck LA

Word on the street is you can be a pioneer by taking bay boat features and putting them on a flat bottom boat. And passive aggressively grumble about copycats. Appears the industry is running out of new ideas, so everything appears to be a copy of something else.

I do think most boats with large integrated rails are reminiscent of HB designs. And skiffs without them are becoming rare.


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## jmrodandgun

Str8-Six said:


> Why isn’t there a Chris Morejohn statue somewhere?


Because too many people hells bay owners would be lined up to blow it.


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## formerWAflyfisher

I don’t really get why people are so upset, fired up etc about the price of used HB. Yeah they’re high priced but they are a top tier builder and they make a really nice product. If you think they’re over priced new or used don’t buy them.


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## formerWAflyfisher

EdK13 said:


>


Not far off the truth


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## Tx_Whipray

formerWAflyfisher said:


> I don’t really get why people are so upset, fired up etc about the price of used HB. Yeah they’re high priced but they are a top tier builder and they make a really nice product. If you think they’re over priced new or used don’t buy them.


Because it's mid-day on a Thursday, we're all stuck working (except @Smackdaddy53 ), and it's either this or get something important done...duh!


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## SomaliPirate

Tx_Whipray said:


> Because it's mid-day on a Thursday, we're all stuck working (except @Smackdaddy53 ), and it's either this or get something important done...duh!


You hit the nail on the head.


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## lsunoe

My Gheenoe poles better than a 16' Waterman /thread


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## K3anderson

jmrodandgun said:


> Because too many people hells bay owners would be lined up to blow it.


Most of them would be boat builders copying or buyers of competing brands whose build time was 16 months.


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## jmrodandgun

lsunoe said:


> My Gheenoe poles better than a 16' Waterman /thread


Hells Bay invented poling platforms, push poles, and poling. They also invented Gheenoes, outboard motors, cork drag fly reels, crocs, and chittum's patented spray rails.


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## kylet

jmrodandgun said:


> Hells Bay invented poling platforms, push poles, and poling. They also invented Gheenoes, outboard motors, cork drag fly reels, crocs, and chittum's patented spray rails.


Not true. Crocs are only $30


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## Tx_Whipray

kylet said:


> Not true. Crocs are only $30


The limited edition Hell's Bay Technical Fishing Shoes are only available in the Hell's Bay store on their website. They're made by Simms and cost $79.....each.


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## EdK13

kylet said:


> Not true. Crocs are only $30


Unless they are Flip Pallot custom crocs.


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## crboggs

Str8-Six said:


> Why isn’t there a Chris Morejohn statue somewhere?


People would have to drop off his jock long enough to build it?


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## SomaliPirate

I heard Hell's Bay just cut ties with the NRA...


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## FlyBy

SomaliPirate said:


> I heard Hell's Bay just cut ties with the NRA...


Bastards


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## Net 30

MariettaMike said:


> And as for Net30's experience selling his classic 2001 no liner tunnel hull with a guide chair I wasn't surprised he only got $28k for it. Offering to trade it for a 16 Waterman was a sign of weakness, and then letting EC sell it with a build underway was total surrender. I wouldn't totally blame the boat for the lower than expected selling price.


Yeah.......but it really could have been a lot worse!

I could have driven to Titusville, bent over & paid $70,000+ for a barge of a Marquesa that draws 12" and then lost 25% of my investment the first time it hit the water....


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## Fishshoot

This is getting entertaining!!! Something to keep me distracted while I wait 3 more days before tarpon.


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## el9surf

Funny how there's so much animosity towards a good builder and a good product. HB is directly involved in trying to improve the water issues here in FL. They are doing a lot more than some of the other top tier builders. Yet you ass clowns have nothing better to do than sit here and whine and bitch about the value of their used boats and ridicule anyone who sees value in them. Give me a break.


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## jmrodandgun

el9surf said:


> Yet you ass clowns have nothing better to do than sit here and whine and bitch about the value of their used boats and ridicule anyone who sees value in them. Give me a break.


Hells bay invented ass clowns, stop trying to copy them.


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## el9surf

jmrodandgun said:


> Hells bay invented ass clowns, stop trying to copy them.


Anyone ever told you that you come across as a miserable dickhead?


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## devrep

who gives a shit?


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## mtoddsolomon

Man I stay away from this site for a day and y’all turn into a bunch of cackling hens


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## EdK13

SomaliPirate said:


> I heard Hell's Bay just cut ties with the NRA...


Next there will be a recall on HB side console guide tunnels- allegedly. Except, they do not exist.


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## EdK13

devrep said:


> who gives a shit?


My hunch: Possibly anyone that posts.


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## EdK13

Net 30 said:


> Yeah.......but it really could have been a lot worse!
> 
> I could have driven to Titusville, bent over & paid $70,000+ for a barge of a Marquesa that draws 12" and then lost 25% of my investment the first time it hit the water....


They say its bearable with a generous slather of KY.


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## yobata

Ok, it's time to whip em out and put your money where your hand is


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## LowHydrogen




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## MariettaMike

Net 30 said:


> Yeah.......but it really could have been a lot worse!
> 
> I could have driven to Titusville, bent over & paid $70,000+ for a barge of a Marquesa that draws 12" and then lost 25% of my investment the first time it hit the water....


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## K3anderson

jmrodandgun said:


> Hells bay invented ass clowns, stop trying to copy them.


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## K3anderson

crboggs said:


> People would have to drop off his jock long enough to build it?


Chris is still mad at CM for saying his Mako 181 is the worst boat Make ever made. Which it is. Glad you finally joined us here in skiff world with a skiff that doesn't draft 2.5'. Better late than never.


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## crboggs

K3anderson said:


> Chris is still mad at CM for saying his Mako 181 is the worst boat Make ever made. Which it is. Glad you finally joined us here in skiff world with a skiff that doesn't draft 2.5'. Better late than never.


You liked that boat...admit it...especially after the kidney damage and loose fillings we got in your J14.


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## K3anderson

And dont wave to me from your cuckmobile anymore JM, just because you see another skiff. I don't wave back to poor P'OS with that cheap, non-stable, 4 owner HB copy.


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## LowHydrogen




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## K3anderson

crboggs said:


> You liked that boat...admit it...especially after the kidney damage and loose fillings we got in your J14.


That whole boat and motor weighed less than that pushpole you keep hawking on here. What was it made out of again? lead?


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## crboggs

K3anderson said:


> That whole boat and motor weighed less than that pushpole you keep hawking on here. What was it made out of again? lead?


Dunno...just glad it had enough girth to hide behind up on the platform.


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## K3anderson

Poles, girth??? WTH?


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## SomaliPirate

Jesus Christ, I'm gone for three days and this place turns into Thunderdome.


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## EdK13

SomaliPirate said:


> Jesus Christ, I'm gone for three days and this place turns into Thunderdome.


Its not just here. Its going to hell in a hand basket everywhere my friend. Here's one for you and a very sad example. An acquaintance of mine, after many years of medical training and college has been fired for one minor indiscretion. He slept with one of his patients and as of today the state boards have determined that he can never work in his chosen profession again. What a dang waste of time, effort, training and resources. And the poor bastard - man, he's still paying off his school loans. This just goes to show you, one minor mistake can upend your life. Thoughts and prayers for him and his family. He really is a all around good dude and an absolutely brilliant veterinarian. Hope you had a nice trip.


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## mtoddsolomon

LOL That is funny


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## K3anderson

People shouldn’t take things so seriously. Have a little fun.


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## crboggs

K3anderson said:


> People shouldn’t take things so seriously. Have a little fun.


Yup. Ken and I have been griefing each other on the skiff for a few years now...guess it bled over into the forum here. I'll just remind him about "that redfish" and move along.


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## K3anderson

Heard about that Ed. Avian, right?


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## Net 30

EdK13 said:


> Its not just here. Its going to hell in a hand basket everywhere my friend. Here's one for you and a very sad example. An acquaintance of mine, after many years of medical training and college has been fired for one minor indiscretion. He slept with one of his patients and as of today the state boards have determined that he can never work in his chosen profession again. What a dang waste of time, effort, training and resources. And the poor bastard - man, he's still paying off his school loans. This just goes to show you, one minor mistake can upend your life. Thoughts and prayers for him and his family. He really is a all around good dude and a absolutely brilliant veterinarian. Hope you had a nice trip.


Wouldn't be the first time a guys life ended up in the shitter due to some random Pussy.


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## yobata

EdK13 said:


> Its not just here. Its going to hell in a hand basket everywhere my friend. Here's one for you and a very sad example. An acquaintance of mine, after many years of medical training and college has been fired for one minor indiscretion. He slept with one of his patients and as of today the state boards have determined that he can never work in his chosen profession again. What a dang waste of time, effort, training and resources. And the poor bastard - man, he's still paying off his school loans. This just goes to show you, one minor mistake can upend your life. Thoughts and prayers for him and his family. He really is a all around good dude and a absolutely brilliant veterinarian. Hope you had a nice trip.


I heard about that


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## SC on the FLY

What’s the average price they’ve declined?


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## jboriol

E


el9surf said:


> I wonder how the water quality issues that are plaguing FL are affecting demand compared to past years. It would be interesting to know whether many of the big dogs are even operating at full production levels. My guess is that same issue is likely having an influence on the used market leading to excess supply and reduced demand. Boating is less appealing when the water is filled with turds.


Thus Estero and East Cape 24 Bay to broaden possible market share in a tightening skiff market with so many skiff manufacturers.


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## El_Muchaco_Pescado

el9surf said:


> Funny how there's so much animosity towards a good builder and a good product. HB is directly involved in trying to improve the water issues here in FL. They are doing a lot more than some of the other top tier builders. Yet you ass clowns have nothing better to do than sit here and whine and bitch about the value of their used boats and ridicule anyone who sees value in them. Give me a break.


They do build a great boat and they a lot with Captains for Clean Water. But have they taken any initiatives to help the water issues in their own back yard? I havn't seen anything on it. I just don't think its a sexy enough issue for them.


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## crboggs

El_Muchaco_Pescado said:


> They do build a great boat and they a lot with Captains for Clean Water. But have they taken any initiatives to help the water issues in their own back yard? I havn't seen anything on it. I just don't think its a sexy enough issue for them.


I'm no HB fan boy, but I think HB is well beyond needing a sexy cause to get their brand out there. They're involved in more things than they're not down here, it seems. I would say its the other builders that could step up more...


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## El_Muchaco_Pescado

crboggs said:


> I'm no HB fan boy, but I think HB is well beyond needing a sexy cause to get their brand out there. They're involved in more things than they're not down here, it seems. I would say its the other builders that could step up more...


My point was asking if they are doing anything for the local Titusville water issues instead of the limelight issues. I'm sure they are I just havn't heard of a cause to rally behind or them trying to raise awarenesss for the issues in their back yard.


----------



## Cam

Hell's Bay is finally in a very competitive marketplace. There are so many solid choices out there that are every bit as capable as a HB and the quality between a mid-tier custom builder and HB just isn't that far apart any more. All these boats have the same hardware, motors, gear, etc.

As for HB and the clean water issue... here is a recent quote:

*Chris Peterson, owner of Hell’s Bay Boatworks* along the Indian River in Titusville, is a Republican who believes in limited government. But he says the mass outbreaks of “dead fish and putrid algae” are depressing sales of his high-end fishing skiffs by about 50 percent — and, more important, destroying the natural Florida he has loved all his life. “I know it can’t be the way it was 50 years ago, but I’d like to see it mature gracefully rather than become a meth-head with bad teeth,” he said. “That’s where we’re heading if we don’t do something about these nutrients.” And by “we,” he means government: “I don’t want government to do anything but the things we can’t do individually, but I can’t fix these water problems individually!”

Full article: https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...nate-race-rick-scott-bill-nelson-algae-221272


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## mtoddsolomon

This is a super freaking old thread.


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## El_Muchaco_Pescado

mtoddsolomon said:


> This is a super freaking old thread.


Yeah I apologize, I some how stumbled onto it and didn't check dates berfore I commented.


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## SomaliPirate

Yeah it was heated. I'm glad it got unearthed.


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## El_Muchaco_Pescado

SomaliPirate said:


> Yeah it was heated. I'm glad it got unearthed.


I certainly enjoyed reading it haha.


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## el9surf

Back from the dead just in time for Halloween.


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## mtoddsolomon

el9surf said:


> Back from the dead just in time for Halloween.


----------

