# Fly gear prices - AFFTA upset with Trump Tarrifs



## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I read an article this morning about how AFFTA is denouncing Trump's Tarrifs because they are going to cause fly gear prices to increase. About half way through the article I was thinking to myself give me an f'n break.

The cost of gear in the fly world is already out of touch with the majority of people. I will start by saying I own a lot of gear, but I have picked the majority of it below retail. While that helps it was still expensive. So why is fly gear so disproportionately high compared to conventional gear? With rods pushing the 1k mark and the premier reels easily north of $500 the cost of fly fishing is stupid. If I can wrap my head around cost I can justify it more with reels based on the materials used, the machining used, and the smaller production scales. No matter how you look at it fly rods don't seem to have enough tech built into them to justify their cost.

I wonder what the true cost to produce a top of the line sage, Loomis or Scott rod cost. Not the cost that we can buy each component and build it ourselves but what those companies actually source the materials for. How much cost really goes into R&D for a blank? How much of that is outsourced or done on a computer program?

Anyways as I read the article I couldn't help but laugh thinking about the additional incremental cost that would get passed along to the customer. I laughed because I was thinking about the ridiculous profit margins that need to be maintained at all cost.

Here's the link to the article I read.

https://www.hatchmag.com/articles/fly-fishing-trade-group-sharply-denounces-trump/7714826


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## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

i think were all idiots for what we spend on fly gear! Haha the problem i see is the fish dont care how much we spend. I bet these companies pay less than $150 bucks to build the rods. Its a hobby so mark up is whatever someone will pay


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

"The increase will further stifle innovation, force unfair and highly expensive production changes" 

Let me translate, 

"This will likely in no way, affect domestic built fly rod builders, the cost of domestically produced fly reels will probably increase due to foreign aluminum sourcing. Previously, a billet of alum to produce your avg Hatch, Nautilus, or Tibor reel would cost $5 that price is increasing 20%!!!! to $6, with the remainder of the reel cost being machining, and finish work. Unfortunately, we as consumers will be forced to bear this cost. Brace yourselves, that bargain basement price of $785 will skyrocket to $786."


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

American made rods and reels shouldnt. increase. It may effect the cost of some of the new online companies that are selling lower end Chinese product at massive markups. Not really a concern for me. I buy American when possible and if I can’t, I willingly will spend more for a non Chinese product.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Rookiemistake said:


> I bet these companies pay less than $150 bucks to build the rods


The materials are probably less than $50. The labor is what is so expensive. I don't buy into the R&D cost of rod building. I'll say it, I don't think it's as expensive to develop a rod as they claim. 

Anyone who manufactures fishing gear in the states pays a 10% tax on the first sale of the rod as part of tax that funds wildlife management and conservation. People who build rods overseas aren't paying that tax.


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## fishnpreacher (Jul 28, 2018)

Add in the cost of a "Lifetime Warranty." You don't think that replacement rods or components are free, do you?
There's nothing free, everything costs somebody something, and the consumer basically covers all costs.


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## Stormy Monday (Mar 27, 2019)

"So why is fly gear so disproportionately high compared to conventional gear? With rods pushing the 1k mark and the premier reels easily north of $500 the cost of fly fishing is stupid." I think that what you describe here is, sadly, what you experience walking into a lot of fly shops. I've had 3 friends have shops that went under, and I regret that, but the racks were full of rods starting at $500 and reels starting at $300 - soemone new to the sport is going to have the same reaction you describe here. There are a lot of good rods, fine for probably 90% of us, that can be had in a price range that competes with conventional gear. It's not in the shops, it's not in the mags, so you need to know how to go find it. I'm sure a lot of it is sourced overseas and tarrifs may well impact it, but they aren't going to turn a serviceable $180 rod into a $600 rod.


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## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

jmrodandgun said:


> The materials are probably less than $50. The labor is what is so expensive. I don't buy into the R&D cost of rod building. I'll say it, I don't think it's as expensive to develop a rod as they claim.
> 
> Anyone who manufactures fishing gear in the states pays a 10% tax on the first sale of the rod as part of tax that funds wildlife management and conservation. People who build rods overseas aren't paying that tax.


I bet your right. if anything its the ferrules that they make the blanks with that cost more than anything


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

fishnpreacher said:


> Add in the cost of a "Lifetime Warranty."


This is a Marketing tool to drive higher MSRP. Nothing more. The proof is in the no questioned asked replacement policies from companies like TFO.


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## Stormy Monday (Mar 27, 2019)

Looking at some of the metal parts our Engineers at work are turning out on 3D printers it seems like just a matter of time before the labor costs on mid priced reels should come down (or the profits go up I suppose...)


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Noted that our manufacturing folks (for fishing gear) have added their chorus to the on-going complaints about our country standing up (for a change...) regarding trade issues (and with who else... China).... 

You can bet that the folks on the other side of the world are betting that we're entirely too soft and just won't have the stomach to do what needs to be done.... Me, I hope they're very wrong, period.

And for the cited association... "Gee that's too bad...."


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

el9surf said:


> Here's the link to the article I read.
> 
> https://www.hatchmag.com/articles/fly-fishing-trade-group-sharply-denounces-trump/7714826


Odds are low that my comment will be approved...so here it is...

_"Cry me a river. Prices on fly gear are already inflated. I own Sage, Loomis, Tibor, etc myself because I can afford to. I know I am paying a premium that's been marked up, so I don't complain until I see garbage like this. These price increases will only be transferred to the consumer if AFFTA companies refuse to adjust already astronomical margins that lead to $1000 fly rods and fly lines that now cost over $100 in some cases. The fly industry already has a pricing problem...don't blame it on the Orange Man..."_


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

I hit submit on mine before i copied it but the long and short was "How are these manufacturers going to encourage us to buy local and support our local fly shop" while getting upset about an increase on tariffs on their Chinese sourced goods that can be and should be sourced domestically. I'm happy to pay a little more so they can keep their already ridiculous margins and still buy materials and pay for labor right here in the US."


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

mtoddsolomon said:


> I hit submit on mine before i copied it but the long and short was "How are these manufacturers going to encourage us to buy local and support our local fly shop" while getting upset about an increase on tariffs on their Chinese sourced goods that can be and should be sourced domestically. I'm happy to pay a little more so they can keep their already ridiculous margins and still buy materials and pay for labor right here in the US."


Agree 100%, happy to pay slightly more for US made stuff.

Lets be honest, nobody is in this $hi! to save money. I could put way more fish in the boat with a $100 cast net.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

crboggs said:


> Odds are low that my comment will be approved...so here it is...
> 
> _"Cry me a river. Prices on fly gear are already inflated. I own Sage, Loomis, Tibor, etc myself because I can afford to. I know I am paying a premium that's been marked up, so I don't complain until I see garbage like this. These price increases will only be transferred to the consumer if AFFTA companies refuse to adjust already astronomical margins that lead to $1000 fly rods and fly lines that now cost over $100 in some cases. The fly industry already has a pricing problem...don't blame it on the Orange Man..."_



Agreed 100% this is the last industry I want to hear whining about cost of goods.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

I’d like to see any one of you build a high end fly rod for $100


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## mtoddsolomon (Mar 25, 2015)

Challenge accepted


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

el9surf said:


> Agreed 100% this is the last industry I want to hear whining about cost of goods.


I always get a good chuckle when a sport pulls up the ramp and unloads his American gear out of an Asian made travel case he bought at Orvis for $200.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

Stormy Monday said:


> "So why is fly gear so disproportionately high compared to conventional gear? .


Pretty simple actually. The saltwater flyrod market is tiny.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

They're mad because they outsourced all of their American jobs over to China to save $$. Made investments in standing up a chinese supply chain to make more and now they are getting burned.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

K3anderson said:


> Pretty simple actually. The saltwater flyrod market is tiny.


The market is exponentially bigger and more expensive than when I started fly fishing back in 1996. All I'm suggesting is their margins are ridiculous and the prices keep going up. The idea of them crying about the tarriffs and passing extra cost on to the customers is falling of deaf ears with me.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

el9surf said:


> The market is exponentially bigger and more expensive than when I started fly fishing back in 1996. All I'm suggesting is their margins are ridiculous and the prices keep going up. The idea of them crying about the tarriffs and passing extra cost on to the customers is falling of deaf ears with me.


Hard to argue that.


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## Gorma (Nov 21, 2018)

I am far away from protecting or supporting Trump.
BUT at the same time it remains me situation with airlines and oil prices. Whenever oil prices goes up, airlines cry that that must increase price tickets and they so sorry...And they all agree..
Somehow I never remember ticket prices going down even if oil became dirt cheap!
Fly fishing/ fishing business is the same thing. Just business and they do not care about us. If they can rise the prices they will and they have perfect, beautiful new excuse. Nothing new. Do you think after tariff war prices will go down!? No way. They (out favorite manufactures) rather blow it out for good and call bankruptcy court. This is US business model...(Speaking of Donald T


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## shb (Oct 29, 2013)

A $100 bucks for a couple ounces of plastic/vinyl/nylon?

Melt a fly line down, look at the components, and tell me your not being raped.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

shb said:


> A $100 bucks for a couple ounces of plastic/vinyl/nylon?
> 
> Melt a fly line down, look at the components, and tell me your not being raped.


I do know how much it costs to manufacture a fly line. Its right about $5.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

This has been hashed on here to death. I try to buy US made products but I don't shy away much from overseas stuff. Except China. They are the devil lol. But seriously their quality control is poor.


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## RaspberryPatch (Dec 17, 2016)

I believe one point not covered - irrespective on the industry segment - business hate taxes ( unless they are weaponized to harm a competitor) and a tariff is just another tax.

So the inherent reaction of any business or business association is to express dissatisfaction at tariff.

AFFTA or any other business association, and like all business will be happy to use this argument to increase costs to you.

IMHO


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Make 2-Strokes Great Again

just saying


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Apr 4, 2015)

It’s a proven fact that tariffs don’t work in the long term, they are simply leverage for trade deals. It does hurt retailers as the majority of imported products are “wants” not “needs”. Rather than buying the American version, people just don’t buy.

It’s also not just the manufacturing cost + retail markup + warranty costs you’re paying for, it’s R&D, aesthetic design, advertising, all the “free events” companies put on, etc.

I think the larger fly fishing companies like Orvis and Redington have been doing a great job lately at turning out decent affordable gear. It’s the industry as a whole that’s trying to push “technology” like things advance at the pace of computers.

“Buy this new $800 rod, it’s a total game changer and will last you forever.” The following year... “Everyone needs this brand new $800 rod, it’s super advanced. Last year’s tech is so outdated and no one can catch a fish on it anymore.”

It’s the same thing with mountain biking and bow hunting, give me a break.


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## numbskull (Jan 30, 2019)

Consider this.
Consumer prices (the CPI) now are about 63% higher than 1996.
An $800 rod today would have cost $500 then.
A $700 reel about $450 then.
These numbers are pretty close to what we paid for the best stuff back then.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

AMERICAN HERO

https://oysterbamboo.com/bamboo-fly-rods-classes.html


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

The goods we all admire and will purchase (when funds allow...) aren't one bit more expensive now than the were ten or twenty years ago.... Your money (unfortunately) is simply worth a lot less..... as each year slides by.

That process was greatly sped up during the Obama years. Another way to look at it is to scan current gold prices today - then look to see what the price of gold per ounce was ten, twenty, and thirty years ago... That tells the tale. An ounce of gold isn't one bit more valuable today than it was all those years ago. Our currency is worth less - a lot less...

Pray that we succeed in our re-alignment of trade practices with China - no matter what the cost... You really won't like what happens to us in coming years if we're not successful. Remember our opponents (and make no mistake they're absolutely our opponents....) are thinking and planning a lot longer term than we do. So far they've had great success while we just have done little in the way of things that really need to be done.

I'll get down off of my soapbox now.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

lemaymiami said:


> The goods we all admire and will purchase (when funds allow...) aren't one bit more expensive now than the were ten or twenty years ago.... Your money (unfortunately) is simply worth a lot less.....


If this were universally true, laptop computers would be $6,000. It's a very complex problem that a lot of people blame on inflation. The reality is production costs have decreased while labor and regulatory costs have sky rocketed. This is why we are starting to see volume producers come to market who build their junk overseas. Remember the Orvis Mirage? That thing was hecho in Korea. So why in the hell was it $600?

Back in the day Carbon fly rods were cutting edge. The tech was new and the material was expensive. Now the tech is old and the material costs pennies but when adjusted for inflation the cost of the rods are pretty close the linear.

If you want to make yourself sick to your stomach go ask a machine shop how much they pay in taxes every year on their machinery.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

MariettaMike said:


> AMERICAN HERO
> 
> https://oysterbamboo.com/bamboo-fly-rods-classes.html


Been in that shop couple times, super cool place, thought about taking a class, the only off the shelf items in my range were a hat and sticker, so I bought both.

I do think he probably gets that bamboo from overseas... lol.


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## acesover (Aug 21, 2015)

I am at the point of not buying anymore rods or reels. I like what I have and it serves my purpose. I refuse to spend 100 bucks on a fly line just because it is supposed to make me cast better. Practice makes you better, not throwing more money at it.


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## Chris R (Dec 13, 2017)

So no matter what business we are respectively in we have to deal with there economic realities. I for one would be ok with paying a bit more (of an already crazy price) if it IS NOT FROM CHINA. If that is what it takes to support our American infrastructure then so be it. If the tackle sellers and manufacturers are upset with what things from China cost - tough


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## Drifter (Dec 13, 2018)

Id pay twice as much for my gear if it meant there were half as many fly fisherman.

Smackdaddy, do I get to make 4,000 of them at 100 bucks each?


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## Chris R (Dec 13, 2017)

Drifter said:


> Id pay twice as much for my gear if it meant there were half as many fly fisherman.
> 
> Smackdaddy, do I get to make 4,000 of them at 100 bucks each?





Drifter said:


> Id pay twice as much for my gear if it meant there were half as many fly fisherman.
> 
> Smackdaddy, do I get to make 4,000 of them at 100 bucks each?



Great Point or even better if we could pay twice as much for few snaggers or bait slingers


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## Barbless Bob (Apr 22, 2019)

lemaymiami said:


> Noted that our manufacturing folks (for fishing gear) have added their chorus to the on-going complaints about our country standing up (for a change...) regarding trade issues (and with who else... China)....
> 
> You can bet that the folks on the other side of the world are betting that we're entirely too soft and just won't have the stomach to do what needs to be done.... Me, I hope they're very wrong, period.
> 
> And for the cited association... "Gee that's too bad...."


Totally agree. Our nation needs to get back to "insourcing," especially when it comes to basic materials and manufacturing. All you have to do is take a look at the price of fly tying hooks and the fact that nearly all the hooks are manufactured outside the USA. I'd love to see a new USA hook manufacturing company pop up that actually made its hooks here.


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## MRichardson (May 27, 2010)

lemaymiami said:


> The goods we all admire and will purchase (when funds allow...) aren't one bit more expensive now than the were ten or twenty years ago.... Your money (unfortunately) is simply worth a lot less..... as each year slides by.
> 
> That process was greatly sped up during the Obama years. Another way to look at it is to scan current gold prices today - then look to see what the price of gold per ounce was ten, twenty, and thirty years ago... That tells the tale. An ounce of gold isn't one bit more valuable today than it was all those years ago. Our currency is worth less - a lot less...
> 
> ...


Yep. Anyone can go to an online inflation calculator and prove it to themselves. A $550 fly rod in 1997 (about the last time and amount I paid for a T&T) is now just under $900. Similarly priced to a similar model in today's lineup.

Can't compare fishing equipment to computers or TVs, especially fly fishing gear. It's not a commodity or even close to it. No similar economy of scale or demand for the latest/greatest.


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## KurtActual (Sep 25, 2017)

All this talk of R&D and inflation, but no one is talking about the unreal amount of waste in sponsorship and social media presence?


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## Drifter (Dec 13, 2018)

If there wasn’t fishing Instagram, I would literally have nothing to do when I’m not fishing.


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## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

KurtActual said:


> All this talk of R&D and inflation, but no one is talking about the unreal amount of waste in sponsorship and social media presence?


Actually, just looking at inflation alone as mentioned before shows the increase in price. The $550 back in 1997 was before social media and doubt it has much affect on the price we pay for fly fishing equipment. So let's say that now $900 rod at retail costs them $250, they sell it to dealers for $450 and to the Public for $900. 

An ad in the Flyfisherman Mag for a 1x buy at full page color is $9,800. Now, no one pays that, so we will say it is $6,000 for 1x full page add of $900 fly rod. You can run that one ad or you can give that rod to 24 social media people. Some companies do both and some do none but from what I see, rod or reels companies are not sitting around saying they need to raise prices because they dished out product to social media people. That is one reason Magazines are becoming so thin it is hard to flip through them. I remember Florida Sportsman in the 1990's, now it is just sad.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Drifter said:


> If there wasn’t fishing Instagram, I would literally have nothing to do when I’m not fishing.


Tie flies.


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## Drifter (Dec 13, 2018)

Lol good point. But still I use like so few saltwater flies. I hope the rod makers spend their profits on elaborate fishing trips to unheard of places.


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## MRichardson (May 27, 2010)

KurtActual said:


> All this talk of R&D and inflation, but no one is talking about the unreal amount of waste in sponsorship and social media presence?


I'm not sure it's a "waste."
You'd have to be a market researcher to really quantify the affect, cost, savings, lost opportunity and market share, etc. of participating or not.

From what I can tell, most of the cost of sales (indirect) for products like Yeti coolers, GLoomis fly rods, Callaway golf clubs, Applie i-whatevers is marketing. More money is spent on pushing/placing the product than actually building it.

I think that it's kinda sad, and bullshit.. but at the same time, if I were selling equipment and disagreed with that approach I'd be doing it from the sidelines.


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