# Running 50 HP tiller without grab bar



## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

Hello,

I am a new poster to microskiff and looking to get some thoughts.....

I am having a Cayo 173 built and want to power the boat with 50 HP Tohatsu tiller. I dont really like the grab bar as I feel it takes up deck space. Anyone run a tiller this large without a grab bar? Im worried about safety and not being able to run standing up. Any thoughts or concerns about not having a grab bar?

Thanks,

James


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

If you're going to run standing, then you should have a grab bar or the equivalent. One quick stop will convince you of this fact. Do not run without the kill lanyard attached firmly to your body.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

My back hurts just thinking about it. Why not get the side console?


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## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

jmrodandgun said:


> My back hurts just thinking about it. Why not get the side console?


I like the simplicity of the tiller.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

No doubt tillers are fun and they save tons of space. I'm in the process of going from a tiller to a center console and it's one of those things where I found junk to fill all that empty space left by the tiller. I also ran my tiller both with and without a grab bar, both set ups had their pros and cons. Where one fell short, the other excelled. One thing about the tiller console was it made running in bad conditions more safe and gave better visibility. Given the Cayo's deadrise and high hp rating, the ability to cross bigger water is there to utilize if you decide to go with grab bar. Without the grab bar I found running in chop to be uncomfortable. Another thing to consider is where your passenger will sit without a tiller console. They will be limited to the front deck riding facing you. What makes that particularly difficult if things turn ugly is it's really uncomfortable for your passenger and it places them high enough to make visibility difficult from a seated position. 

When building the new boat I struggled to justify keeping a tiller. In the end the center console won. I figured with the 50 hp I was going to have a tiller console with grab bar anyway, so I may as well drive from the console. 

side note, I am also in line for a cayo.


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## Sandalous (Oct 30, 2013)

I run a 50 Yamaha 2 stroke tiller on a Cayo without a grab bar and have not had any issues. However I do all of my driving from a seat so it might be nice to have a grab bar if I were driving standing up with a tiller extension.


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## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

Sandalous said:


> I run a 50 Yamaha 2 stroke tiller on a Cayo without a grab bar and have not had any issues. However I do all of my driving from a seat so it might be nice to have a grab bar if I were driving standing up with a tiller extension.


Can you stand and lean against the platform at all? Do you regret not having one? Does the cockpit feel a lot more roomy without it? I was thinking of maybe doing a yeti tie down and attaching a grab bar to the cooler so I could take it off if I want. Thanks for your reply Sandalous!


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## GullsGoneWild (Dec 16, 2014)

Get a side mounted GB. Takes up less space than a center mounted GB. I run a ECS Caimen w/ 40HP Tohatsu and i drive sitting and standing. When i stand, i hardly ever use the GB unless conditions dictate . I would not drive standing and leaning on the poling platform. When standing on the back deck and driving, if i want to safely turn, i have to hop down in the cockpit to make a turn.


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## Sandalous (Oct 30, 2013)

jmrodandgun said:


> Another thing to consider is where your passenger will sit without a tiller console. They will be limited to the front deck riding facing you. What makes that particularly difficult if things turn ugly is it's really uncomfortable for your passenger and it places them high enough to make visibility difficult from a seated position.


I understand that this is the common belief amongst tiller boats, but I run with my passenger next to me with no issues.


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## Sandalous (Oct 30, 2013)

Financekid1 said:


> Can you stand and lean against the platform at all? Do you regret not having one? Does the cockpit feel a lot more roomy without it? I was thinking of maybe doing a yeti tie down and attaching a grab bar to the cooler so I could take it off if I want. Thanks for your reply Sandalous!


Running while leaning against the platform / sitting on the platform is not safe but it is definitely possible in this boat. The cockpit is super open without any grab bars. As said in the post above, a gunnel mounted bar would be a good option if you want to keep the cockpit clear. Or, attach a grab bar to your yeti.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

I have a waterman with a tiller 50 tohatsu. I added a grab bar after a few months and I would not go back. I always stand while operating and it is much more comfortable and I don't worry as much about getting ejected if I hit something. Almost as important I now have my gps/dephfinder, and jackplate/trim tab controls right there when running. I also hung my fire extinguisher and a small tackle web for sunscreen, etc from the grab bar.


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## GatorFan321 (Jun 8, 2016)

I wont run a boat standing up without a grab bar. Mine is a tiller with no grab bar but I sit down and ride with my passenger beside me on the rear deck when I have one. The boat runs better with them there than on a cooler in front of me and I can see better. I run a grab bar in my duck boat with a surface drive. Its a must for standing up running that thing.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

I got to run one of Flip's old 16 Whips with a 60hp tiller and the swivel chair this past Spring with its' new owner. 

Best tiller set-up ever, just keep your ass seated when it's choppy, or stand up and lean against the poling platform where it's calm(skinny), or have your guest spin the chair around and shoot-the-shit on long runs.

BUT I have also fished a CC 16 Whip with a 50 that was just as sweet except for the shoot-the-shit part.

SO the decision really comes down to whether you like to talk to your guest while running or not.

(If you mostly fish solo I would go with a console for the safety of something substantial to grab on to regardless of running or not.)


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## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

So from what im gathering......I need a grab bar.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Yes, you need a grab bar. I've seen plenty guys run standing without one, but most of them were missing front teeth.


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## Sandalous (Oct 30, 2013)

The most important thing that you need is your safety lanyard connected to you at all times. This should be the case for all of us running small skiffs, whether they be tiller or wheel steering, but you do not see it happening very often.


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## fjmaverick (Sep 18, 2015)

When I ran my 60hp tiller i did it sitting on the gunnel

If it got rough Id actually sit on the floor and plant my feet and back agaisnt the gunnels


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## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

Thanks for all of the replies guys!!! I hear a lot of people talking about "big water" and getting rough....I live in NE Florida where the ICW is about 1/4 wide. A really rough day for the ICW here is 1-2ft, which im not fishing in anyway. Other than that its mostly calm as its mostly protected. I do go down to mosquito lagoon every once in a while and can see that getting snotty unless I stay more to the north where it is protected. So being that its mostly calm where I live, would that change your decision of grab bar vs cockpit space? My other concern is when I take the wife for a sunset cruise, I would like for her to sit comfortably next to me without the grab bar in her face the whole time.


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## JappyFish (Mar 1, 2014)

I almost made a context post referring to the grab bar below. Totally forgot about Cayo's skiffs......forgive me....

http://www.anrdoezrs.net/4g108zw41w...tand-up-paddleboards--16367203&cjsku=16367203


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

All this talk about ejection and grab bars. Wtf are yoh doing for passengers. Quick stop and they fly out console, grab bar or not


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## fjmaverick (Sep 18, 2015)

My tiller boat was a rigid inflatable. There were ropes to hold on around the entire boat for passengers.

I did tie a line to the bow cleat to run standing up. It worked alright.


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## E-money (Jul 7, 2016)

If it makes you feel any better, I plan to run a 60 tiller with no grab bar. But I haven't yet so I don't know if that's worth anything to you. I've run surface drives at speeds close to 25-27mph without grab bars and have never had any issues or close calls.


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## BayStYat (Sep 12, 2012)

best of both, center and tiller sit or stand


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## T Bone (Jul 24, 2014)

I have a buddy who runs an F70 tiller no grab bar with zero complaints. 

I went no grab bar on my tiller skiff as well to free up space and wouldn't change a thing, although my motor is a measly 25 Yamaha two stroke (not quite the punch as a 50+hp)


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## E-money (Jul 7, 2016)

BayStYat said:


> best of both, center and tiller sit or stand


Beautiful!


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Beyond the safety aspects, a grab bar as a very convenient place to hang tilt/trim and jack plate controls. I have grab handles located where passengers might sit. I don't encourage passengers to stand, and so far, I've never lost anyone overboard....except my dog who refuses to use the handles. He learned from the experience and is now much more careful where and how he stands.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

love that caimen. perfectly balanced with that yammie 50.


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## browndogrods (Oct 21, 2010)

Have you considered a side grab bar? I run a Caimen with a Yam 50 tiller and have a GB on the starboard side, one leg mounted on the floor, the other on the gunnel.


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## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

browndogrods said:


> Have you considered a side grab bar? I run a Caimen with a Yam 50 tiller and have a GB on the starboard side, one leg mounted on the floor, the other on the gunnel.


I have thought about a side grab bar, but if you look at the small cockpit on the cayo 173, I dont think it would make much difference and may look awkward.



Vertigo said:


> Beyond the safety aspects, a grab bar as a very convenient place to hang tilt/trim and jack plate controls. I have grab handles located where passengers might sit. I don't encourage passengers to stand, and so far, I've never lost anyone overboard....except my dog who refuses to use the handles. He learned from the experience and is now much more careful where and how he stands.


I agree about having the controls, but the boat will not have a jack plate and the tilt and trim will be on the tiller extension handle. So the only thing I could think of putting on it would be the trim tabs.

Honestly I will probably sit most of the time and maybe stand while slow creeping checking an area.

For the guys who have a Cayo, do you think JB could rig some sort of removable base to take the GB on and off?


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## schrats (Apr 15, 2014)

I run relatively long distances quite often standing up with a 40 hp. Never felt the need for a grab bar.


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## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

BayStYat said:


> best of both, center and tiller sit or stand


BEAUTIFUL SKIFF!!!


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## Troutset (Aug 23, 2015)

I drive my Cayo 100% of the time standing and leaning against the platform. Very comfortable and sturdy especially on long runs. I would just sit down if it gets too rough instead of wasting cockpit space. I run the beach regularly and been through some heavy chop standing without feeling unsafe. I always wear my lanyard though. I cruise at 30+ mph with my 30 2 stroke. I am upgrading to 50 2 stroke soon.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Financekid1 said:


> For the guys who have a Cayo, do you think JB could rig some sort of removable base to take the GB on and off?


Sure. Cooler tie downs and a cooler mounted grab bar might be a more simple option. 

When I first talked with them about a boat I had my heart set on a tiller with a cooler cradle/grab bar for a tiller console. My dad brought up an interesting point. If you're going to go through the trouble of installing a center console, why not go ahead and put a steering wheel on it? Especially if its not removable. 

Obviously that is a very general statement and a tiller console is not the same thing as a center console without a steering wheel. I just found it to be an interesting question. It was enough to change my mind and order the skiff with a center console.


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## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

jmrodandgun said:


> Sure. Cooler tie downs and a cooler mounted grab bar might be a more simple option.
> 
> When I first talked with them about a boat I had my heart set on a tiller with a cooler cradle/grab bar for a tiller console. My dad brought up an interesting point. If you're going to go through the trouble of installing a center console, why not go ahead and put a steering wheel on it? Especially if its not removable.
> 
> Obviously that is a very general statement and a tiller console is not the same thing as a center console without a steering wheel. I just found it to be an interesting question. It was enough to change my mind and order the skiff with a center console.


JM,

I can understand that. I used to have a Beavertail BTX center console and I got tired of constant maintenance. I think I am the exception in the fact that I am wanting to downgrade. As simple as possible. Center consoles just add more things to go wrong. With the exception of trim tabs, I just want an engine hung on a boat with as little electronics as possible that poles skinny. That being said, if I wasnt looking to simplify, I would have def gone with a CC over the tiller.


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## E-money (Jul 7, 2016)

Here is my opinion on the matter. Benefits of a tiller:

Lighter setup - nullified by adding grab bar and cooler
Open cockpit - reduced by adding grab bar and/or cooler
Cheaper - nullified by adding grab bar and cooler
Slightly faster (I've been told) - nullified by adding weight of grab bar and cooler (guess)
Super fun to operate - still true
Lower maintenance - still true

I guess if you just want a tiller because you like them or think they are fun then put a box/bar set up. But it cancels out a lot of the obvious benefits when you do. If I was going to add one, which I am not, I think I would do a side mounted removable grab bar as previously mentioned.

I also agree that it is a convenient place to put your gauges and switches. I am currently working on my build with East Cape and will get my skiff in November. Mine will be on the bulkhead with a second set of jackplate switches under the rear poling platform. I am going to get some NMEA connections to my gps for gauges and mount my gps on a ram arm in the corner of the cockpit opposite my steering side, or mount on the gunnel closest to me (undecided).

As far as safety goes, if you don't feel comfortable running without a bar, then it seems like the decision is pretty easy. Safety, even just your perception of it, is very important. If you aren't comfortable running your own boat then you likely won't enjoy it. Then what's the point?!? But it is very likely that once you run it for a bit sitting you will start to feel more and more comfortable standing. Are you close to the shop? Can you add a bar later?

My approach is simplicity. I want as little as possible to do as much as possible. BUT, never at the expense of putting my life or someone else's life in danger. Just my opinion.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

I've owned and operated an embarrassing number of tiller, center console and side console boats most in the 14' to 22' range. I've learned that what is most important is the steering position, not whether it's tiller or wheel. A side console gets awful wet and most require sitting and sitting will beat a person mercilessly in chop. A center console that requires the operator to be seated is marginally dryer but still hard on the spine. A steering position in the center that allows standing is the driest and most comfortable when the wind is blowing. Being able to stand and steer is not only the most comfortable, but also affords the best visibility ahead. If you can either sit or stand to steer and you have a console and windshield to protect you, that's the absolute best (if your boat can handle a little more weight).

Weight wise, a center console and wheel with associated cables and rigging is always going to be heavier than a tiller, but probably not so much as to make a difference except in the smallest and lightest skiffs.

Price wise, unless your motor comes stock with a tiller, don't expect the tiller to be much cheaper than a wheel. Typical tiller kits will run about $800.

Space wise, even if you go with a grab bar a tiller comes out ahead, but I never consider a console wasted space. Gauges, switches, rod holders, batteries and crew seating have to be somewhere, and a console is a good place to put them.

The advantages of a tiller, as far as I'm concerned, come down to not having steering and control cables running aft from a console and more responsive steering. The disadvantage comes down to control around the dock if it's necessary to turn around or reach backward to shift from fwd to reverse. When it's all added up, a tiller is probably the best option for smaller, lighter boats and a console and wheel the best for anything that can take a little extra weight and has the space.


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## browndogrods (Oct 21, 2010)

Financekid1 said:


> I have thought about a side grab bar, but if you look at the small cockpit on the cayo 173, I dont think it would make much difference and may look awkward.
> 
> *I have a lot of cockpit area, I wouldn't think the Cayo is much if any more narrow than the Caimen.*
> 
> ...


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

If anything the cayo should be a touch wider than the caimen


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## scissorhands (Apr 8, 2012)

anything extra weighs more.


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## Sandalous (Oct 30, 2013)

Here are two examples, the first one is Troutset and the second one is mine.


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## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

Sandalous said:


> Here are two examples, the first one is Troutset and the second one is mine.


Well...That just sold me. NO grab bar. Look how clean that skiff is without one! Thanks Sandalous! Clean rig!


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## T Bone (Jul 24, 2014)

Another vote for no grab bar. Not a Cayo but...


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## Financekid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

T Bone said:


> Another vote for no grab bar. Not a Cayo but...


Awesome Skiff!!1 I like that hull color. What kind of skiff is it? Can read the side cause its waxed to perfection


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## T Bone (Jul 24, 2014)

Financekid1 said:


> Awesome Skiff!!1 I like that hull color. What kind of skiff is it? Can read the side cause its waxed to perfection


Skull Island


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## zthomas (Jan 14, 2014)

A little off-topic, but these guys seem to get by without grab bars. In a former life, I wrote a Baja guidebook and spent lots of time on the water with the _pangueros_, who run those damn things basically anywhere, in any conditions, and never, _ever_ sit down. This was 8 or 10 miles off, near Isla Cerralvo south of La Paz.


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## Fishngritz (Aug 19, 2016)

I've got the teak Si with console and tiller set up and never touch the grab bar but I stand on the back deck while running. When it gets hairy I lean on the platform


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