# Fuel Additives



## FSUDrew99 (Feb 3, 2015)

Im not talking about anything to help fight ethanol. I'm sure most of us run ethanol free or hope so at least.....

Anyone run anything to help outboard engine internals, life span of the motor, cleans motor, etc. 

Ive heard not to use them and have also heard people swear by them.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Marvel Mystery Oil


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

full synthetic premix oil


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Since you're running an E-Tec.... use nothing but what BRP recommends - your dealer will tell you what to use. Remember -unlike every other manufacturer with a mechanical (gear or belt driven) injection system the E-Tec is purely electronic....


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

For Yamahas use ring free


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## FSUDrew99 (Feb 3, 2015)

Yea that is true and I have had an injector fail before and don't want to loose those left and right due to some additive. They are pricey that's for sure.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

For what it's worth - I've never used anything but fuel with ethanol in it with every E-Tec I've owned - and not the slightest problem. Mercs and Yammies really need non-ethanol laced fuel though....


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## FBskinny (Dec 8, 2015)

Ringfree in my yami 2 smoke.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I use Seafoam in my 4 stroke


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

lemaymiami said:


> For what it's worth - I've never used anything but fuel with ethanol in it with every E-Tec I've owned - and not the slightest problem. Mercs and Yammies really need non-ethanol laced fuel though....


I have 2400 hours on a Suzuki and have run nothing but ethanol fuel. Modern outboards are designed to run on ethanol unlike older models. The key to running ethanol is you have to use it and keep fresh fuel in your tank, if it sits you get phase separation of the ethanol.


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## predacious (Sep 1, 2016)

Steve_Mevers said:


> I have 2400 hours on a Suzuki and have run nothing but ethanol fuel. Modern outboards are designed to run on ethanol unlike older models. The key to running ethanol is you have to use it and keep fresh fuel in your tank, if it sits you get phase separation
> 
> 
> 
> ...










this whole ethanol thing - will it ever die ? the amount of misinformation and outright misconceptions amazes me....


phase separation occurs when water is introduced into the fuel - the fuel will not separate on it's own...

seafoam ? you mean the miracle repair in a can ? funny,i read stories about people having motor problems,usually the next line is,"i added start tron,or seafoam,and the motor instantly ran better"

ring free/carbon guard - adding these once in a while to the fuel will never hurt

adding all this other stuff,you're wasting your money - bet you buy lots of lottery tickets too,right ?


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Ever since ethanol blended gas became commonly available about 10 years ago, I've run nothing but ethanol blend with absolutely no additives in every gasoline motor I own. That includes Yamaha, Mercury, Tohatsu, and Evinrude outboards, both 2-stroke and 4-stroke. I've never had a fuel related problem. There's a lot of paranoia about ethanol and I'm guessing it helps sell all sorts of fuel-related products. As noted above, just run what the manufacturer recommends, do good maintenance and you won't have fuel problems.

BTW, I'm not a rabid environmentalist and I do think ethanol is a big government boondoggle that need to be reconsidered. OTOH, when it's shoved down our throats, no use going to extremes to not use it. The ethanol problem is purely economic and political, not mechanical.


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

I only run ethanol Free 

But when I was still trying to run ethanol blend 
I tested all the additives only Sentry helped 
Star Tron is a Joke 

I have run ethanol free pre mix that is a year old
with NO problems !

Try that with E-10 Crap NO BUENO !!!

I run XD-50 oil it is great


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

predacious said:


> this whole ethanol thing - will it ever die ? the amount of misinformation and outright misconceptions amazes me....


I wish I could like this post twice. Lots of people neglect their marine fuel systems making it easier to blame E10 than themselves. There is also no fuel additive that can prevent or reverse phase separation either so all those ethanol combating fuel additives are little more than combustible snake oil.

Regular use typically results in regular maintenance. You run into trouble when your boat sits with fuel in the tank (storing tanks topped off will help prevent water issues) and water builds up naturally in the fuel cell. Once the fuel reaches it's saturation point you end up with this layer of water an ethanol at the bottom of the tank with a lower octane gasoline floating on top, this is called phase separation and the only way to fix this is to empty the tank. The ethanol and water mixture at the bottom of the tank is very corrosive and the lower octane fuel floating on top is less than ideal for normal operation. There are things you can do to combat phase separation but if you're running your boat often then you don't necessarily have a whole lot to be concerned about.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

I own a 2015 F60 Yam and Yam recommends adding Yamaha ring free to every tank of fuel. 

1. Keep your fuel cell full to prevent condensation of water from the atmosphere from separating in the fuel cell.
2. Install a fuel/water separator/filter 
3. Treat the fuel with your choice of stabilizer
4. For two cycles, de-carbon your engine once per season


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

sjrobin said:


> I own a 2015 F60 Yam and Yam recommends adding Yamaha ring free to every tank of fuel.
> 
> 1. Keep your fuel cell full to prevent condensation of water from the atmosphere from separating in the fuel cell.
> 2. Install a fuel/water separator/filter
> ...


De-carbon with what product? I usually use seafoam


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Never use any additIves and run ethanol. No issues.


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## FSUDrew99 (Feb 3, 2015)

noeettica said:


> I only run ethanol Free
> 
> But when I was still trying to run ethanol blend
> I tested all the additives only Sentry helped
> ...



I only have been running ethanol free, I run my boat at least once a week and if I can't make it out on the water that weekend I'll put the dog ears on the motor and run her in the driveway for 10-20 mins. 

My Evinrude service techs say they have had the best results with the XD-50 and that is all I run as well. 

I feel as if you continually try and run and stay on top of your motor aka, oil, good gas, lubrication, not letting it sit for long periods it will treat you well.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I run E10 free now that I have it local. When I ran E10 I saw a report on here were a guy kept 10 additives in 10 different jars with E10 for a year and the only one that did not separate was StarTron


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

yobata said:


> De-carbon with what product? I usually use seafoam


OMC/Yamaha made a spray solvent that you spray directly into the carb intakes until the motor stalls. Let it work for 30 minutes(follow directions) Then re-start engine. Put something under the engine hub exhaust to prevent staining the concrete. De-carbon if you want your two cycle to make it to 2000 hours. The E-tec oil does not leave the quantity of carbon residue that TCW oils do. Anyone have 2000 hours on a E-tec?


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

sjrobin said:


> OMC/Yamaha made a spray solvent that you spray directly into the carb intakes until the motor stalls. Let it work for 30 minutes(follow directions) Then re-start engine. Put something under the engine hub exhaust to prevent staining the concrete. De-carbon if you want your two cycle to make it to 2000 hours. The E-tec oil does not leave the quantity of carbon residue that TCW oils do. Anyone have 2000 hours on a E-tec?


If anyone recalls the Yamaha specific solvent, please post.

I still like SeaFoam, it seems to do the same thing, but I'm ok with spending a few extra bucks on an engine specific one... Thanks!


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

predacious said:


> this whole ethanol thing - will it ever die ? the amount of misinformation and outright misconceptions amazes me....
> 
> 
> phase separation occurs when water is introduced into the fuel - the fuel will not separate on it's own...
> ...


The water gets in the fuel because the fuel system is not a closed system like a car. Boat fuel tanks have a ventilation line that allows air full of humidity to enter the tank, the water molecules in the air attach to the ethanol and then separate from the fuel, at least that is the way I understand it from researching the problem. That is why you want to keep your fuel tank as full as possible so that there is less room for air with humidity in the tank. Sorry not trying to steer the thread of the original topic, just wanted to clarify my earlier post.


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

Perhaps E-10 will get repealed !!!

"I'm lovin it" ;-)


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

noeettica said:


> Perhaps E-10 will get repealed !!!
> 
> "I'm lovin it" ;-)


Interesting factoil about that..... The Ethanol in the E10 actually cost 110% of what monies the fuel companies pay for it. So our Gov't subsidizes the corn farmers the extra 10% of loss they could have made, selling it into the food industry. It's messed up because on one hand, the corn growers complain to the Gov't that they don't get enough sales volumn and that they need this to be in biz in a big way.... and.... on the other hand, they are complaining that they should receive more money from the product. So every gal of E10 fuel sold here in this country and also exported out of our country, we as tax payers are shelling out approx 1% of the total retail cost per gal. Now that doesn't seem like much (between 2 to 3 cents per gal), but it equals *Billions* of dollars each year that is yet another continuation of the prefuse bleeding our country suffers. I sincerely hope Trump cuts that hemorrhaging out.


This is what only 1 billion dollars in neatly packed $100 dollar bills out of the mint looks like.








Ethanol is costing us *Billions* each year! It doesn't do our vehicles, outboards or the environment any good! It's a total waste and in total, just helps out a few farming families. Studies have shown that it would be cheaper if they didn't grow it for ethanol and just subsidize their income. Tho studies have also shown that they are making money hand over fist. Therefore, we should just cut it off completely.


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## Whiskey Angler (Mar 20, 2015)

Backwater said:


> Interesting factoil about that..... The Ethanol in the E10 actually cost 110% of what monies the fuel companies pay for it. So our Gov't subsidizes the corn farmers the extra 10% of loss they could have made, selling it into the food industry. It's messed up because on one hand, the corn growers complain to the Gov't that they don't get enough sales volumn and that they need this to be in biz in a big way.... and.... on the other hand, they are complaining that they should receive more money from the product. So every gal of E10 fuel sold here in this country and also exported out of our country, we as tax payers are shelling out approx 1% of the total retail cost per gal. Now that doesn't seem like much (between 2 to 3 cents per gal), but it equals *Billions* of dollars each year that is yet another continuation of the prefuse bleeding our country suffers. I sincerely hope Trump cuts that hemorrhaging out.
> 
> 
> This is what only 1 billion dollars in neatly packed $100 dollar bills out of the mint looks like.
> ...


Hey Backwater, you know anything about that duffle bag's worth of cash missing off that front pallet?!? Don't you think we didn't notice.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Steve_Mevers said:


> The water gets in the fuel because the fuel system is not a closed system like a car. Boat fuel tanks have a ventilation line that allows air full of humidity to enter the tank, the water molecules in the air attach to the ethanol and then separate from the fuel, at least that is the way I understand it from researching the problem. That is why you want to keep your fuel tank as full as possible so that there is less room for air with humidity in the tank. Sorry not trying to steer the thread of the original topic, just wanted to clarify my earlier post.


Sort of. It has less to do with the way the tanks, both automotive and marine, are vented and more to do with the corrosive nature of an ethanol and water mixture. Once phase separation occurs, it can not be simply reversed. Vehicles that sit for long periods of time often have the same issues the marine users face. 

Long story short, there are only so many ways to get fuel out of a tank, and they all require a vent.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Whiskey Angler said:


> Hey Backwater, you know anything about that duffle bag's worth of cash missing off that front pallet?!? Don't you think we didn't notice.


Whoops!!!


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

Backwater said:


> Interesting factoil about that..... The Ethanol in the E10 actually cost 110% of what monies the fuel companies pay for it. So our Gov't subsidizes the corn farmers the extra 10% of loss they could have made, selling it into the food industry. It's messed up because on one hand, the corn growers complain to the Gov't that they don't get enough sales volumn and that they need this to be in biz in a big way.... and.... on the other hand, they are complaining that they should receive more money from the product. So every gal of E10 fuel sold here in this country and also exported out of our country, we as tax payers are shelling out approx 1% of the total retail cost per gal. Now that doesn't seem like much (between 2 to 3 cents per gal), but it equals *Billions* of dollars each year that is yet another continuation of the prefuse bleeding our country suffers. I sincerely hope Trump cuts that hemorrhaging out.
> 
> 
> This is what only 1 billion dollars in neatly packed $100 dollar bills out of the mint looks like.
> ...


Agree 100 Percent!


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## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

Vertigo said:


> Ever since ethanol blended gas became commonly available about 10 years ago, I've run nothing but ethanol blend with absolutely no additives in every gasoline motor I own. That includes Yamaha, Mercury, Tohatsu, and Evinrude outboards, both 2-stroke and 4-stroke. I've never had a fuel related problem. There's a lot of paranoia about ethanol and I'm guessing it helps sell all sorts of fuel-related products. As noted above, just run what the manufacturer recommends, do good maintenance and you won't have fuel problems.
> 
> BTW, I'm not a rabid environmentalist and I do think ethanol is a big government boondoggle that need to be reconsidered. OTOH, when it's shoved down our throats, no use going to extremes to not use it. The ethanol problem is purely economic and political, not mechanical.


Agree. Ethanol and methanol are such a clean burning fuels. Given the option I would use 100%. There is a reason all the hot rods and dragsters use alcohol fuels. More btu's and cleaner burning. And I work for an oil company.


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## Indoman (Jul 25, 2013)

I think the whole ethanol "scare" is much to do about nothing provided  you turn your gas over regularly. Ran a Yami Vmax for 10 years on pretty much nothing but ethanol with no problems. Have been running my 4 stroke 50 Yami the same way for 2 years with no problems. A shot of Ring Free at every fill up and don't let the gas get old. 

This coming from someone who could rant on and on about how much BS the "need for an environmentally friendly fuel" like ethanol is. ...oops, sorry. Wrong forum.


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

Why are there no Fuel tank drains on _*ALL *_vehicles ?

Like a 5/16" stainless tube leading from a small sump in the tank bottom leading to the side of the tank ...

It could have a tamper-proof plug that a mechanic could remove to let the CRUD out ...


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

My mechanic friend of 50 years says that Ethanol Fuel keeps his business overbooked year round as if the motor is not used very regular it will have fuel issues. Personally I use Chemtool and Seafoam non Ethanol Fuel with my 2 Stroke Engines with no issues. My biggest issues are the trash in the fuel stations tanks as I always re filter my gas before adding to my tanks and a separator filter in the boats.


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

Ethanol is very clean but that's about the only up side. High performance motors run well on it because it burns much cooler and with a better knock resistance.
Petro will get you farther down the road because of the higher BTU rating http://zfacts.com/p/436.html


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

There is a bunch of misconception about the misconception of ethanol. Newer engines were built to run with ethanol. Olders ones, pre ethanol, were not. Multiple engine mechanics have told me ethanol on older engines has kept them more than busy.

It makes the engine run hotter, is less efficient and can damage parts that were not made to withstand it. It can cause harder, hotter running on small engines. Consumer Reports issued a statement that references a Department of Energy study:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...ethanol-can-make-small-engines-fail/index.htm

While taking care of an engine and running it often helps, ethanol is still a factor. I lost a cylinder on a Yammy two stroke - my mechanic took it apart and said it looked like ethanol damage and he could tell compared to other failures in experience pre-ethanol.

Believe what you will - I am not willing to take any chances. I cannot see inside my engine to tell. A water/fuel separator is a must and I treat the gas in both of my boats.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

coconutgroves said:


> A water/fuel separator is a must and I treat the gas in both of my boats.


What do you use for treatment of the fuel?


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

coconutgroves said:


> There is a bunch of misconception about the misconception of ethanol. Newer engines were built to run with ethanol. Olders ones, pre ethanol, were not. Multiple engine mechanics have told me ethanol on older engines has kept them more than busy.
> 
> It makes the engine run hotter, is less efficient and can damage parts that were not made to withstand it. It can cause harder, hotter running on small engines. Consumer Reports issued a statement that references a Department of Energy study:
> 
> ...


I have tuned motors to run on 100% ethanol by changing out the carb jets. Ethanol has a completely different air to fuel ratio vs gasoline http://www.ultra-gauge.com/customer_support/knowledgebase.php?article=29
Your hot running 2 stroke was from a lean mixture. All of my 2 strokes run leaner with e-10 and maybe a little stronger depending on the factory jetting.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Rollbar said:


> What do you use for treatment of the fuel?


Sta-Bil 360 Marine - https://www.amazon.com/STA-BIL-22240-Marine-Vapor-Technology/dp/B001CAW2DK

@RunningOnEmpty - you changed out the carb jets. That changes the equation. My comments were about stock engines made pre-ethanol. They were manufactured and tested with standard gasoline. Alcohol-based fuels have been used in boat racing for decades. Those engines are built for that mixture.

I had three different mechanics tell me it isn't a matter of "if" but "when" in regards to ethanol damage on older engines. Why risk it? Fuel treatment and a water separator are cheap and good practices.


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

coconutgroves said:


> Sta-Bil 360 Marine - https://www.amazon.com/STA-BIL-22240-Marine-Vapor-Technology/dp/B001CAW2DK
> 
> @RunningOnEmpty - you changed out the carb jets. That changes the equation. My comments were about stock engines made pre-ethanol. They were manufactured and tested with standard gasoline. Alcohol-based fuels have been used in boat racing for decades. Those engines are built for that mixture.
> 
> I had three different mechanics tell me it isn't a matter of "if" but "when" in regards to ethanol damage on older engines. Why risk it? Fuel treatment and a water separator are cheap and good practices.


Alcohol is a awful choice for any non racing engine in my opinion because it pulls in water like crazy. Older motors had major issues with the fuel systems getting eaten up by the harsh ethanol. My old 1980's johnson ran on E-87 forever without a single problem after updating the fuel system. I'm guessing my lack of trouble was from fishing almost daily and the fuel never getting the chance to collect water.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

coconutgroves said:


> Multiple engine mechanics have told me ethanol on older engines has kept them more than busy


Mechanics are mechanics, not engineers or chemists. It's the equivalent of taking legal advice from a cop. 



coconutgroves said:


> It makes the engine run hotter


No. Ethanol burns much cooler than gas. The reasoning behind small engines having issues with ethanol blended fuel is far more complex. I don't really feel like writing an essay because nothing I say is likely to change anyone's mind. However, I will sum up my thoughts on E15 fuel with a single sentence. There is absolutely nothing wrong with E15 in an outboard engine as long as you take the proper preventive measures to stop phase separation before it begins and you are smart enough to know it can not be reversed in the event you do experience phase separation.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Is using higher octane fuel helpful? I have been running 93octane fuel that is labelled "contains up to 10% ethanol" in my 2 stroke 2006 yamaha 25hp. I am assuming that even though this is a 2 stroke, since it was built in 2006 that they were already testing these motors with ethanol in mind...


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

No. You will not benefit from higher octane.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

jmrodandgun said:


> No. You will not benefit from higher octane.


Why not?
If we use a 4S and we put higher octane in our cars/runs better then ??
Just trying to understand your statement, maybe I'm old school thinking on octane.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Rollbar said:


> Why not?
> If we use a 4S and we put higher octane in our cars/runs better then ??
> Just trying to understand your statement, maybe I'm old school thinking on octane.


It doesn't run better. You're experiencing the placebo effect.

I should be more specific. If an engine is deigned to run on 87, you will not gain anything from 93. If an engine is designed to run on 93, it may experience detonation with anything lower.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

jmrodandgun said:


> Mechanics are mechanics, not engineers or chemists. It's the equivalent of taking legal advice from a cop.
> 
> 
> 
> No. Ethanol burns much cooler than gas. The reasoning behind small engines having issues with ethanol blended fuel is far more complex. I don't really feel like writing an essay because nothing I say is likely to change anyone's mind. However, I will sum up my thoughts on E15 fuel with a single sentence. There is absolutely nothing wrong with E15 in an outboard engine as long as you take the proper preventive measures to stop phase separation before it begins and you are smart enough to know it can not be reversed in the event you do experience phase separation.


It may burn cooler, but an older engine not tuned for it may run hotter. See the Department of Energy study I referenced. Hard to dispute a study that wasn't funded by the corn lobby.

And I'll take a mechanic's opinion over a chemist. The chemist doesn't work on engines all day long and lacks 30 years of first hand experience, including when ethanol started to appear at the pumps. And I'll believe their opinion over some post I read online. Stating it's 100% ok is a broad over statement. No way that is the case when including older pre-ethanol engines.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

coconutgroves said:


> It may burn cooler, but an older engine not tuned for it may run hotter.


You completely ignored the part where I very specifically mentioned preventive measures. Not sure why you continue to blame the ethanol, when the ethanol is not the problem. The problem is the lack of education on how to properly handle the ethanol blended into our fuel . If you take a few simple steps you will not experience any issues that do not come from neglect. 



coconutgroves said:


> And I'll take a mechanic's opinion over a chemist. The chemist doesn't work on engines all day long and lacks 30 years of first hand experience


You're entitled to an opinion, so are mechanics. I can go further into why all the ethanol hate is largely a by product of misinformation and mechanics running around blaming ethanol for neglect related issues. It is not an if then problem because the hypothesis is wrong, so the conclusion must also be wrong. 

An example would be someone who is not up to date on E15, or similar fuel, and allows phase separation to occur. The corrosive water and ethanol mixture is hell on fuel system parts, naturally the mechanic says the ethanol caused the problem. A did not cause B in this instance. There is another element to the problem. A few simple steps by the owner and this conversation never takes place. Have you ever wondered why your chemistry PhD who's disguised as a mechanic never gives you a quick run down on phase separation and how to properly maintain a fuel system operating with e15? I didn't think so....


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

While we are at it, you do not have to place lead acid batteries up wood blocks. They will discharge at the same rate on the blocks as they do on the concrete


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

That's new to me ^^^^^^^^^ But I still do, for now, until I get edge-a-mu-cated.


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

yobata said:


> Is using higher octane fuel helpful? I have been running 93octane fuel that is labelled "contains up to 10% ethanol" in my 2 stroke 2006 yamaha 25hp. I am assuming that even though this is a 2 stroke, since it was built in 2006 that they were already testing these motors with ethanol in mind...


I use the 93 non ethanol in my Modded 25 Yamaha 2 stroke for over 2 years, but use it nearly weekly 250 hours + no issues 100/1 pre mix. And while I am thinking about it my modded 87 Yamaha was used with 93 octane and oil injection since it was rebuilt by Hydrotec in 1990 with no issues @ 6000 rpm.


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

yobata said:


> Is using higher octane fuel helpful? I have been running 93octane fuel that is labelled "contains up to 10% ethanol" in my 2 stroke 2006 yamaha 25hp. I am assuming that even though this is a 2 stroke, since it was built in 2006 that they were already testing these motors with ethanol in mind...


Fresh 87 octane is all your motor needs to run properly.


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

Rollbar said:


> Why not?
> If we use a 4S and we put higher octane in our cars/runs better then ??
> Just trying to understand your statement, maybe I'm old school thinking on octane.


EFI motors self adjust the timing to take advantage of 93 octane. You can do it manually with CAUTION on any old motor for a little extra pep.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

jmrodandgun said:


> Have you ever wondered why your chemistry PhD who's disguised as a mechanic never gives you a quick run down on phase separation and how to properly maintain a fuel system operating with e15? I didn't think so....


Actually, he did explain it to me and also said the engine didn't have a water/fuel filter and probably ran untreated gas. I get it man, don't blame the ethanol, it's not its fault. That's also why I pointed out older engines weren't made for it and to always run the right things to prevent any issues. You also need to factor in zero educational material that was put out when ethanol came out - not everyone knows this stuff, but also people don't read the details. So when they glance over "ethanol doesn't harm engines" they don't read the fine print - many will just stop there.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

Pretty interesting video.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)




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## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

Interesting! However, my understanding of Stabil and Startron is that they _prevent_ phase separation from happening in the first place and were not intended to chemically bind the water with the fuel so that example is kind of deceiving. I add Startron when I remember and have a fuel/water separator - change it regularly and not a drop of water, no issues, then again I have an Etec and use my skiff.

I am a believer in the ethanol destruction - all my gas power tools took a crap. I use an electric blower, tree trimmer, etc. Done fooling with gas powered yard tools.


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## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

Also, funny guy mentioned that ethanol free fuel they're still finding ethanol in the fuel because the trucks haul both. I always wondered about that...


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

Megalops said:


> Interesting! However, my understanding of Stabil and Startron is that they _prevent_ phase separation from happening in the first place and were not intended to chemically bind the water with the fuel so that example is kind of deceiving. I add Startron when I remember and have a fuel/water separator - change it regularly and not a drop of water, no issues, then again I have an Etec and use my skiff.
> 
> I am a believer in the ethanol destruction - all my gas power tools took a crap. I use an electric blower, tree trimmer, etc. Done fooling with gas powered yard tools.


Yes as stated in the video, there is still water in the fuel tanker and in your gas tank.
So, (just a thought), it would be just like the video of introducing water to the fuel, hence, the other two products can't keep the separation from happening per the video testing so the phase separation of the fuel is still happening and the two products are not doing anything as per the video, only the Sentry is working etc.
Question would be, if the other two PREVENTED phase separation, why when water is introduced and MIXED, is separation still happening?


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

If your'e crafty you can separate the ethanol/water from the fuel without any special skills or equipment. Just a little food coloring and a pour-able fuel tank with a drain on the bottom is all you need.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Rollbar said:


> Yes as stated in the video, there is still water in the fuel tanker and in your gas tank.
> So, (just a thought), it would be just like the video of introducing water to the fuel, hence, the other two products can't keep the separation from happening per the video testing so the phase separation of the fuel is still happening and the two products are not doing anything as per the video, only the Sentry is working etc.
> Question would be, if the other two PREVENTED phase separation, why when water is introduced and MIXED, is separation still happening?


The video is tricky. What you're seeing is the water being manually added to force separation. What the video failed to show you is the contents of the bottom layer of the other two products. The star tron and stabil prevent the water from pulling the ethanol out of the fuel, presumably their bottom layer would be pure water rather than a corrosive ethanol water mix. 

A little water in the bottom of a fuel tank has never hurt anyone, and in some cases can be a good thing. However, a water and ethanol mixture is what gives you problems due to it's corrosive properties.


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## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

Just thinking out loud, I'm not sure I agree with video on water in the gas at the pump and then we pump it into our skiffs. I've never had any water in my separator. The way it was explained to me is that the ethanol and gasoline are mixed. They only phase separate when there is no mechanical agitation of the fuel/ethanol mixture. If your skiff has been sitting, trailer it up, step on breaks, go over speed bumps and the mixture won't separate. You don't have to actually fire up the skiff to prevent phase separation. How long before phase separation occurs? No idea. Stabil and Startron are suppose to prevent phase separation if your boat has been sitting for extended periods but thanks for posting vid because I'm gonna check out that Sentry stuff for sure. I don't think Stabil and Startron were made to sequester water once it's been introduced to tank, while it appears Sentry does.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

Yes even growing up we had water in the tanks.
As a kid, I use to work for a fuel company testing thanks and calibrating the fuel pumps etc.
You would be surprised on how many gallons of water are in the underground fuel tanks and some of that does get into the cars gas tank etc.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

Megalops said:


> Just thinking out loud, I'm not sure I agree with video on water in the gas at the pump and then we pump it into our skiffs. I've never had any water in my separator. The way it was explained to me is that the ethanol and gasoline are mixed. They only phase separate when there is no mechanical agitation of the fuel/ethanol mixture. If your skiff has been sitting, trailer it up, step on breaks, go over speed bumps and the mixture won't separate. You don't have to actually fire up the skiff to prevent phase separation. How long before phase separation occurs? No idea. Stabil and Startron are suppose to prevent phase separation if your boat has been sitting for extended periods but thanks for posting vid because I'm gonna check out that Sentry stuff for sure. I don't think Stabil and Startron were made to sequester water once it's been introduced to tank, while it appears Sentry does.


Yes agreed and I like how he mixed the fuel/h20 like you were saying-stopping/starting to mix fuel in the tanks.


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## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

Rollbar said:


> Yes even growing up we had water in the tanks.
> As a kid, I use to work for a fuel company testing thanks and calibrating the fuel pumps etc.
> You would be surprised on how many gallons of water are in the underground fuel tanks and some of that does get into the cars gas tank etc.


Wow, never knew that.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Megalops said:


> I've never had any water in my separator.


In ground fuel storage tanks use a floating pickup. Don't take my word for it, but I'm pretty sure. I would be really surprised if they did not. 



Megalops said:


> No idea. Stabil and Startron are suppose to prevent phase separation if your boat has been sitting for extended periods but thanks for posting vid because I'm gonna check out that Sentry stuff for sure. I don't think Stabil and Startron were made to sequester water once it's been introduced to tank, while it appears Sentry does.


The key here is the contents of the bottom layer. The stabil should prevent ethanol from being drawn out of the fuel, thus preventing phase separation. Fun fact, phase separation takes some of the octane with it. It appears the sentry stuff is allowing the water to burn off with the fuel. I'll go buy some and have look into it over the weekend. I have some specialized equipment at my disposal.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

I don't use anything so for those who do use these additives, why don't you try (if you have time) to duplicate it and see. Personally I think the videos are on the up and up since it is a fishing show/person asking for the test but ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, then again ?


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

One word of caution.
NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, fuel up at a station that has just had a fuel drop!
All the crud and water etc gets mixed. Wait about three days and your good to go.
Yes pumps have a filter, but those are still allowing things to pass through and some maybe services once a yr.
You will know when your local station gets a fuel drop.
Also, fuel up early morning, or real late at night/early am, you get a little bit more fuel, not much, but yes you do. Early testing shows the fuel is cooler and not as expanded, hence, more fuel.
To much to go into but we use to have a 5 gal can w/a mechanical meter on the side and the pump has to be + or - 5% from zero on the can. We would always get the pumps up +5% to give a few extra to the customer cause after a while the calibration drops off etc. Some station owner wanted the calibration set at -5% on the can so they could make more. We would set theirs at zero and tell them we couldn't go to -5% due to future drop off.
That -+5% adds a lot in total gallons to ones tank.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

Just FYI in regards to the -+5% and the can used to measure.
We would actually turn the pump on and dispense 5 gl into our test can w/the mechanical gauge, thus reading the gauge and where the pump actually put out fuel into your tank and what the reading would be from zero, plus 5% from zero or minus 5% from zero. Minus is not good for the consumer but good for the seller.
Hope that clears up things if I didn't explain it right.

Ok, got to go replace my boat bunks/rails.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Did you also perform specific gravity tests?


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## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

@jmrodandgun, let us know what you think of the Sentry additive. Actually, thanks in advance for testing for Team Microskiff. Lol.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

I do not anticipate the Sentry product to be very good, perhaps even worse than fuel it's allegedly treating. It contains Carbitol, aka 2-(2-ethoxyethoxy)ethanol, which is a relatively strong solvent, I think it's used in brake fluid.. anyway adding more ethanol to fuel already containing ethanol = snake oil.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

The best way to maintain the fuel system, is to manually maintain the fuel system. Dumping a bunch of extra shit in your fuel tank will not solve any problems. Think about it for a second. If it were as easy as pouring some magic liquid in the fuel, don't you think a manufacturer would do this and advertise their fuel as something with all the benefits of E10 with non of the negatives? People with boats would be lined up around the block waiting to buy some of that magical E10.


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## GullsGoneWild (Dec 16, 2014)

A mechanic on another I frequent says to clean your fuel system every 100-200 hrs. Simply adding another product will not clean out the system and actually may in fact cause harm down the road. see thread below

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=2155873

I had never heard or thought of having to clean a fuel delivery system in an outboard motor till I saw the above thread.


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## FSUDrew99 (Feb 3, 2015)

What's the word on some good octane booster additives? Anything positive or help clean out spark plugs/ injectors possibly? Maybe add some to let's say some 89 octane ethanol free??


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

FSUDrew99 said:


> What's the word on some good octane booster additives? Anything positive or help clean out spark plugs/ injectors possibly? Maybe add some to let's say some 89 octane ethanol free??


Without going into a ton of boring detail, just skip the additives unless you're running a ridiclously high compression or forced induction. 

There is only one good way to clean plugs and injectors. Remove, clean/replace, reinstall.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

jmrodandgun said:


> Did you also perform specific gravity tests?



Yes.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Rollbar said:


> Yes.


Did you find a lot of water in pump gas? Or notice any egregious ethanol rating discrepancies?


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

Rollbar said:


> Yes even growing up we had water in the tanks.
> As a kid, I use to work for a fuel company testing thanks and calibrating the fuel pumps etc.
> You would be surprised on how many gallons of water are in the underground fuel tanks and some of that does get into the cars gas tank etc.


I always assumed the gas stations had really good water separators?


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

jmrodandgun said:


> Did you find a lot of water in pump gas? Or notice any egregious ethanol rating discrepancies?


I did these test before ethanol came out.
We carried diapers (absorbent pads) and at times had to use them. They would soak up the fuel and leave the water behind. No matter what, you are still pumping some water into your tanks, and underground tanks leak. They even calculate fuel loss due to the tanks leaking etc.
Things have changed, but still have remained the same.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

You need to run e free if you boat sits like mine. If you fish once a week our more you can use any kind of gas


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