# Just wondering...



## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

I love them. Have multiple from 5-13 wt.

Not popular because it takes a tremendous amount of r&ad ($$$)

Just ask Allen Fly reels - they were working on one 3 years ago and it became a dinosaur before it was born.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

I actually have never desired to have one. I'd rather control the drag the old fashion way - it takes more skill and touch understanding what the fish is doing, or is just about to do.

I don't think I've ever broke off a fish (intentionally) by reeling against it. I've busted knuckles for sure. Personally, it is just more exciting and technical, which is why I prefer it.

Shoot, just a few weeks ago I used conventional tackle on an offshore for the first time in 8 years. I forgot how the drag worked!


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## Rediculous (May 5, 2012)

> I actually have never desired to have one.  I'd rather control the drag the old fashion way - it takes more skill and touch understanding what the fish is doing, or is just about to do.
> 
> I don't think I've ever broke off a fish (intentionally) by reeling against it.  I've busted knuckles for sure.  Personally, it is just more exciting and technical, which is why I prefer it.
> 
> Shoot, just a few weeks ago I used conventional tackle on an offshore for the first time in 8 years.  I forgot how the drag worked!


What do you mean by controlling the drag the old fashion way? They function just like every other reel, except the knob doesn't spin with the spool. You still palm the spool to add extra pressure, if that's what you meant.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

They never became reel popular ( ) because most guys like to know when they are reeling that they are brining in line. And I prefer that too. I feel I like I have more control with a direct drive rather than an anti reverse.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Red, it makes perfect logical sense to have an anti-reverse drive system on a fly reel but like Skiff said, they never caught on and the mfgs that played around with the idea didn't sell too many, much like the automatic reels.  Funny thing about the automatic reels tho, there's a company in England that are making a barstock automatic saltwater reel and they are becoming popular over there in the UK.

Back to the anti-reverse thing tho is....  Try to find a spinning reel without anti-reverse?  I don't think you can find them here in the U.S., but then why do you see the anti-reverse lever on almost all spinning reels?  Seems like a dumb idea but some folks in Japan will fish almost exclusively with the reel set to direct drive for finesse fishing techniques.  I guess that's why the blind follow the blind and why most all spinning reel mfgs copy each other and keep that option on there.

One thing that a direct drive reel has an advantage over the anti-reverse fly reel is (especially with bigger fish and tarpon), is you can point the rod towards the fish or just off to the side and directly wind the fish in towards you, putting more force on the fish directly, as opposed to using an AR reel and applying that same technique and the force that only the drag will allow you to put on the fish with an anti-reverse reel.  So that is a technique to help you get a tarpon quickly to the boat.

And that's where I want to got back to the thread where Blue Zone was asking questions about his Finn Nors being right handed retrieve.  If you are right handed, not only does your right hand have more winding speed, but more "strength," endurance, finesse and the dexterity to let go of the handle to avoid getting your knuckles busted up when the thing turns and runs.   

So the direct driving can be the difference to add to all those techniques to help you boat a poon within 15-20mins, rather than 1-1.5hrs and nearly killing the fish doing so.



Ole Stu Apte is the guy who taught me some of those techniques about 23yrs ago.  Met back up with him yet again last week at iCast and he's still kickin at 83 and I'm STILL getting "schooled" by the old guy!


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

I used the basic flyreel while learning on freshies and small inshore fish.
But when I started taking the whippy stick offshore for pelagics, found that I needed the ar.
Comes in handy with 20 lb plus dorado, blackfins and the juvie aj's on the reefs.  
Between maintaining balance in the swells and controlling the fish,
sometimes you need a hand free to grab a stanchion.


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

> Red, it makes perfect logical sense to have an anti-reverse drive system on a fly reel but like Skiff said, they never caught on and the mfgs that played around with the idea didn't sell too many, much like the automatic reels.  Funny thing about the automatic reels tho, there's a company in England that are making a barstock automatic saltwater reel and they are becoming popular over there in the UK.
> 
> Back to the anti-reverse thing tho is....  Try to find a spinning reel without anti-reverse?  I don't think you can find them here in the U.S., but then why do you see the anti-reverse lever on almost all spinning reels?  Seems like a dumb idea but some folks in Japan will fish almost exclusively with the reel set to direct drive for finesse fishing techniques.  I guess that's why the blind follow the blind and why most all spinning reel mfgs copy each other and keep that option on there.
> 
> ...


On the spin a/r thing, direct works well fishing for yellowtail and such as opposed to the practice of leaving the bail open and risking line getting wrapped around the reel.

The only problem with the dominant hand fly retrieve camp is that you can't retrieve and hold the rod with the same hand . I would suggest that more strength/stamina is required holding the rod rather reeling in a fly line. 

Rarely does a fish hit as soon as the fly hits the water at the moment when there is little or no slack in the line. I may be doing it all wrong, but most of the time I am working a fish by feel, holding the slack line between two fingers and using the reel either to pick up slack as the need arises or to bring the fish in when it is pretty well beat. 

I grew up with both spinning and conventional gear, L/H retrieve feels natural for me for both spin and fly where your have more line feel from the line resting on the rod eyes. That said, I can't imagine using L/H conventional gear offshore where a whole lot of reeling is going on.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

> > I actually have never desired to have one.  I'd rather control the drag the old fashion way - it takes more skill and touch understanding what the fish is doing, or is just about to do.
> >
> > I don't think I've ever broke off a fish (intentionally) by reeling against it.  I've busted knuckles for sure.  Personally, it is just more exciting and technical, which is why I prefer it.
> >
> ...


Well, technically, the old fashion way is by hand line, so I should have clarified. I meant old fashioned as direct drive. Personally, I feel A/R takes away from the finesse and technical nature of fly fishing. The reel does much more work, or allows much more error, than a direct drive.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

This topic doesn't come up too often but it's been a concern ever since the first high end reels became available (the first, hands down, was the Fin Nor wedding cake in the mid fifties...). All of the early reels were direct drive reels which allow a skilled angler to put the most pressure possible on a big fish (once it settles down..). Hold that handle and the fish doesn't gain an inch unless you allow it (all the way to the point of breaking one off -and most of us have been that route at least once or twice...). When you turn the handle you get back line - the drawback is that you really need to learn exactly how much you can pressure a fish short of breaking it off. The other very real drawback to the direct drive reel is that darned spinning handle which will chew up knuckles and fingers as you learn.... As a result there arose a demand for "slip clutch" or anti-reverse reels so that the angler didn't have to deal with that darned spinning handle. They were also called "doctor's reels" since anyone needing their hands for precision work wasn't going to be a fan of reels that had the potential to remove finger nails, skin knuckles and in general tear up your hand with a really big fish hooked up and on the rampage. Doctors and other folks with substantial economic power weren't going to be ignored by reel makers so all of them came up with anti-reverse reels. Although most tarpon anglers prefer direct drive reels - offshore it's a different proposition where many prefer an anti-reverse reel. Brett's post is right on the money about that. 

Given the cost of high end reels most of us can barely afford to own the gear we need - much less have two of the same size reel to have both an anti-reverse and a direct drive capability. As a result you learn with whatever you use and will probably stick with it. I know that out of the dozen or more fly reels I own (even ones that haven't been used in years are still with me...) only one or two are anti-reverse.

As a guide I know that an anti-reverse reel can cause my angler to work much, much harder on a big fish since you can turn that handle until you're blue in the face and unless the drag is hammered down just spin your wheels with little line coming in... I make allowances for that but it's going to be an adjustment. I do know a few anglers that can beat the tar out of a 100lb tarpon in less than 12 minutes with a direct drive reel..... That's something to think about.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

One of the always pointed out cons of the direct drive reel is the spinning handle. While this can be an issue to me this is more hype than not. I have never been whacked by the spinning handle. Yes I know a few guys who have but nothing significant and you learn quickly how to avoid this potential problem.

As to why you don't see them on spinning reels - they are a totally different animal. A spinning reel handle spinning around would be a major issue in my mind. Just from the sheer size difference between a spin handle and a fly reel handle. Apples and oranges.

And as Capt Bob pointed out you can whip big fish waaaayyyy quicker with a direct drive reel. I landed a 120# tarpon last month down in FL in 15 minutes. And I am by no means any kind of expert. No way I could have come close to that with an anit-reverse.


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## Rediculous (May 5, 2012)

I don't fish for big tarpon on fly. Not really a great fishery for that here, where I live. I use fly to target reds, drum, trout, snook, sheepies and micro poons. I have honestly not noticed any difference in fighting these fish, whether I'm using my direct drives or an AR. If I don't want the fish to pull anymore line, I simply palm the spool whether it's DD or AR. I guess it really depends on the fish you plan on targeting. I think the AR would be ideal for bones, permit and the species I mentioned earlier. The DD seems to be the preferred reel for big tarpon. Thanks for the opinions, guys.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Good point Capt Bob!  


Skiff, tarpon attitudes comes in many flavors depending where, when and how you hook them.  I've had them act in all sorts of different ways.  But hit a big bright fresh male that's full of piss and vinegar following females and hit him hard and he'll be 100yrds from where you first hit him in a blink of an eye.  And if your hand is on the reel at that time and not thinking about it, you'll get the knuckle bust like everyone is talking about.  But bonefish, permit, tuna and kingfish can do the same thing Red.  Most inshore fish don't behave that erratic with explosive speed and gives you time to watch where and when you use your hand.  

Btw Red, go outside the IRL system to the beach side and follow the beaches down and also look for the shrimp boats.  There you will find the big poons early mornings (summer months).  When following the beaches on your side of the state, go out about 1/4 to 1/2 mile off the beach on a calm morning at sunrise, idling the boat with the sun behind you, looking towards the beach/shore and watch for what appears someone glassing you with a mirror.  That would be the poons up top and moving.  Then ease up in front of them, shut down the outboard, ease up with a trolling motor, cut it off and wait for them to come to you.

Red, if you see the shrimp boats working near shore, run out to them, behind them when they stop and cull their nets and throw a big bushy mullet fly or dalberg diver in a mullet color pattern, or big bushy black seaducers.  Use intermediates or full sink lines for those shrimpboat poons!  You need something that pushes water since the shrimpers will murk up the water.  The tarpon will feed on the cull they throw over. and will eat anything and everthing they can grab, as long as they can find it by smell or feel (in the murky water).  Basically like a big catfish!   ;D


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

In regards to big tarpon, it's how you fight them with the rod that matters most.  Drag comes second.  Now granted, I have not used an A/R ever while fighting one, but I could also not imagine being able to put the amount of pressure needed to land a big fish quickly.

I wen to Isla Holbox last year - a group of guys were from Argentina and fishing near us.  A guy hooked a tarpon and it took him 4 HOURS to land it.  The guide and him were estatic.  His buddy next day fought a fish for 8 HOURS and lost it.

I showed them the picture of my fish.  Their eyes lit up and said I must have taken several hours or more to land.  I told them the truth...

I boated this fish in 30 minutes:









Those guys were high sticking and not putting enough pressure on the fish.  My fish was released quickly after that shot and swam away with power.

I don't think most conventional tackle guys could have landed it that quickly either because of conventional drag systems.  I used finesse while breaking that spirit of the fish.  "Down and dirty" is what Andy Mill calls it and it works.


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## Rediculous (May 5, 2012)

> Good point Capt Bob!
> 
> 
> Skiff, tarpon attitudes comes in many flavors depending where, when and how you hook them.  I've had them act in all sorts of different ways.  But hit a big bright fresh male that's full of piss and vinegar following females and hit him hard and he'll be 100yrds from where you first hit him in a blink of an eye.  And if your hand is on the reel at that time and not thinking about it, you'll get the knuckle bust like everyone is talking about.  But bonefish, permit, tuna and kingfish can do the same thing Red.  Most inshore fish don't behave that erratic with explosive speed and gives you time to watch where and when you use your hand.
> ...


I know they're along the beach as they migrate... but my skiff is 14', and the inlet can be sketchy at best. I've done it, but it's not the smartest thing to do. I fish for the beach tarpon from a kayak, with spin gear. I landed a 150+ poon a few weeks ago, that damn near killed me. The fight was only an hour, which I feel is pretty good for fighting a 7' fish in a 12' kayak. She dragged me about 4 miles out. It was an awesome experience, but not one I ever wanna experience again... at least not from a kayak, anyways. You can target them on fly here, but it's most certainly not a destination people travel to, to do so... much better places to target them on fly. 

I assumed there were reasons why AR wasn't a common option with reel selection. For me personally, I wish it were... cause I've really found absolutely no cons with them, for the fish I target. My only real complaint with my Abel is the weight of it, compared to my other reels (which are all DD). I don't think it being an AR is solely the reason for the difference in weight, though.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

"[ _I know they're along the beach as they migrate... but my skiff is 14', and the inlet can be sketchy at best._  ]"

Yea you don't want to be going thru those passes with that skiff.  If you can go look for them with a buddy in a bigger boat, then that would be ideal.

I like those lesser known places to hunt for fish since you don't have to compete more for the same fish.

Coconut Grove, if I'm not mistaken, Stu canned that technique and phrased it and that's how Andy learned about it, many, many years later.  I hear tell that that Stu learned it from some of the ole time Keys guides that used it back in the 50's.

Andy is a cool dude and he turned me on to the new Hardy Zephyrus.  Very sweet rod.  His boat stick is the 1 piece 11wt.  Very nice rod to throw, tho I don't have the luxury to having a 1 piece 11wt since some of my tarpon fishing can be in deeper water and you really need a beefier stick like a 12wt and even a 13.  But the 11 is a sweet shallow flats rod.

Coconut Grove, you are right when you say most of the battle is done with the rod.  But more importantly, the butt section of the rod, which is where the power of the rod is.  Also grabbing the rod high only removes the lower rod power out of the equation. 

CG, about 8yrs ago, I put a 140lb poon to the boat from hook set to touching the leader (was being timed) to the boat in 3.5 mins to prove a point, using conventional tackle and 40lb test mono and 80lb flouro leader.  I don't reccomend that and the little vids clips my buddies had looked like a freak show.   ;D  Point is, there are fighting meathods that help you get a big fish in like that without burning him up with lactate over an hour or 2.  So 30mins like you did is a very good time to work towards.   

Red, just match those heavier reels up with heavier, bigger rods like a 9 or 10 to counter balance them out, then you'll be fine.


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## PBLucas (Jun 9, 2015)

I've got a Seamaster Marlin AR and it works great for me on the 14wt for offshore and nearshore species like yellowfin tunas and sharks. I've had my knuckles absolutely smashed by a kingfish on a 10 wt, so it can definitely happen and definitely sucks. The AR combined with a strong drag allowed me to land a 75# yellowfin tuna in less time than the other guys on the boat with Shimano 40 wides and stand-up tackle out of Venice last summer. All this being said, I would only use an AR reel for heavy offshore fly fishing. The drawbacks on smaller fish have already been listed. If you want a deal on one look for a tibor billy pate on ebay.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Backwater - awesome back stories, that does not surprise me a bit that Stu canned that phrase.  Pretty sure Lefty might have fought fish like that too with him.

But down and dirty is something that all tarpon fly anglers should know.  You'll get a lot more time spent targeting fish instead of wearing them out (or you out), and it dramatically decreases the mortality of the tarpon.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Pretty sure that coconut meant to say it decreases tarpon mortality.....

Now as to the down and dirty - That is a must fish fighting technique for ANY large fish and its important to know whether you are using the long rod or commie tackle. My wife is a believer and she is actually pretty good at it now. She lands bull redfish a lot quicker than a lot of the guys we take fishing who insist on the tip in the air thingy... ;D


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Thanks - I corrected my comment.  That is what I meant, but the rum had me type something different.  

This is going to sound cheesy, but I think it is an overlooked critical part of salt water fly fishing...

Many guys when they go out get weak knees and buck fever all too often.  I recommend not only going out and practicing targeting objects at a distance to get the casting down, but envisioning all the motions in your head from the cast to landing the fish.

Running through it in your mind programs you to be ready when it happens.  Tarpon fishing is typically:

Spotting the fish
Laying out the cast
Stripping at the right pace to get an eat
Going tight on the fish
Letting the fish turn and take line
Bowing when they jump
Feeding line when they run
Clearing the line
Stinging the fish hard to set the hook again

Then the battle ensues

Running through those motions in your head over and over prepares you for when it actually happens.

Now some of that is hindsight after screwing up each on numerous times before, but once you start playing through this in your mind, it feels natural when it happens.

Also, having a fishy partner helps. During the battle you'll forget certain things - it is good to have someone guide you when you screw up or are not doing things the right way.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Man I have never seen much pontification on anti reverse. They aren't popular because direct drive is better period
Just saying


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

> Man I have never seen much pontification on anti reverse. They aren't popular because direct drive is better period
> Just saying


This.....


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## Rediculous (May 5, 2012)

> Man I have never seen much pontification on anti reverse. They aren't popular because direct drive is better period
> Just saying


Dear Forum Admin,

Please, delete this thread. Permit has shined his valuable knowledge upon myself and it. He even has a strong supporter in Idaho.
I'm aware this site is, quite possibly, short of memory... due to Permits constant posting of threads that pertain to his "big fat flats boats". If it weren't for these vital posts of his... I'd have absolutely no reason, to roll my eyes throughout the coarse of a given day. There are obvious levels of importance, and what I listed above, is at the tippy top.


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## anytide (Jul 30, 2009)

> > Man I have never seen much pontification on anti reverse. They aren't popular because direct drive is better period
> > Just saying
> 
> 
> ...


 [smiley=1-lmao.gif]


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