# Casting experience question



## Beauvet (8 mo ago)

In a popular thread I read recently a guide was speaking about how some days are wasted trying to help fly fisherman in their cast versus catching fish.
I would be interested to hear how frequently this happens to guides.
I personally would not hire a fly guide for this reason. My casting is not bad but I wouldn't call it great either.
I would hope that if I did hire a guide they would deal with my insufficient skill and not call it a wasted day fishing...I'd still pay them and tip em


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## Jcflyfish (Apr 5, 2021)

There’s already enough variables in fly fishing, your cast shouldn’t be one of them. I am not a guide, but I think getting a client that can’t cast well would be very frustrating. Fly fishing is one of the only sports people don’t typically “practice” for. Baseball players take batting practice, golfers go to the driving range, fly fisherman should practice their casting. Lots of good instructors out there too. All the gear in the world, which we love to buy, won’t make up for a faulty cast. There are times when a guide can make up for someone’s lack of skill, but only to a certain point. At that point it’s on the client to get the fly in front of a fish. That said…if the guide spent the day teaching the client how to cast better, it may be a wasted day in the guides mind, but may prove to be a very worthwhile day to the angler!

Jake


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## Sublime (Oct 9, 2015)

I can see a high profile guide, particularly a tarpon guide, getting miffed at bad casting or not following instructions. I'm sure in those circles, the number of fish jumped , brought to hand, brought to the leader etc becomes an important statistic. Then again, I think most anglers hiring the really high profile guides aren't newbs. This would go for Louisiana guides that target bull reds as well. But if an average redfish guide starts cussing me while we are fishing for stockers, there's going to be a discussion right then and there.


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

Beauvet said:


> In a popular thread I read recently a guide was speaking about how some days are wasted trying to help fly fisherman in their cast versus catching fish.
> I would be interested to hear how frequently this happens to guides.
> I personally would not hire a fly guide for this reason. My casting is not bad but I wouldn't call it great either.
> I would hope that if I did hire a guide they would deal with my insufficient skill and not call it a wasted day fishing...I'd still pay them and tip em


I would never consider it a “wasted day “! If the guest is realistic, he/she should realize that they learned a valuable skill that can be used down the road. Years ago I went Steelhead fishing in Oregon. My buddy and the guide “promised” a multi fish day which did not happen. During the day, the guide helped me work on my Spey casting which I use to this very day ( that was 25 years ago).


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## Beauvet (8 mo ago)

I would agree that as a guide it would be frustrating. I guess what I'm getting at is from a guides perspective, how good is the general fly fishing public at casting?
This really isn't about whether a guide should consider it a waste of time or not it just came out that way.
Also, your thoughts are dead on about practice. I only "practice" when I fish!


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

Not a guide.

With that being said, everyone starts at the same place on the bow. So much is learned from just getting up there.

Everyone needs to be honest with themselves about their abilities, goes for all parties. I wonder if Mr. Huff complains about wasted days on the water?


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## brokeoff (Sep 2, 2016)

Beauvet said:


> I would agree that as a guide it would be frustrating. I guess what I'm getting at is from a guides perspective, how good is the general fly fishing public at casting?
> This really isn't about whether a guide should consider it a waste of time or not it just came out that way.
> Also, your thoughts are dead on about practice. I only "practice" when I fish!


Most fly fisherman are not that good.


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## Jcflyfish (Apr 5, 2021)

I asked a bonefishing guide in Honolulu about his experience with clients. If I remember correctly he told me about 25% are good fisherman and good casters, 50% are very mediocre, have fly fished before but not regularly and then about 25% who had never fly fished before. I think he told me he’d prefer the 25% who were good (just made his day easier), but that he’d take the 25% who had never fished before over the 50% who fished occasionally, because they were a bit more open to instruction. I kind of suspect the same thing goes for most fly fishing guides (with the likely exception of the very well known guides who have had the same clients for years and have no room for more). Bottom line should be that guides should be able to work with any skill level without expressing frustration (doesn’t mean they won’t feel it), and do what they can to help their client have a worthwhile day. If that means no fish but improvement in skills, so be it. 
If you book a trip and are worried about your skills, be upfront with the guide. I’m sure that would help a lot.

Jake


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## Loogie (Jul 24, 2019)

The last 50’ (60/70 etc) are all up to, no one can make that cast for you. If you cant make the cast, it’s on you, if you don’t want advice, tell the advisor to keep his advice to himself. However if a guide has a suggestion about the situation and what conditions he is giving and the type of cast you need, that’s not advice, that’s direction, you need to listen and interpret what he is telling you. You may choose to ignore the advice and turn your trip into a $500 boat ride. The last, 50’ are all up to you, whether you listen to advice or not…


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## Nway93 (May 9, 2016)

I don’t guide but have buddies that I fish with that do and I spend plenty of time on the back of the boat.

If I’ve got someone on the bow that’s not the greatest I’m going to find a situation that we can make it work. Biggest thing that frustrates me is not having a backhand or listening to where I want the fly to be. If you’re not willing to try to get better or understand how everything should unfold you’re probably not getting invited back.

I will say some of my favorite days have been with a buddy who’s got very little experience and coaching them into their first redfish or tarpon on fly but it’s going be a long day if you don’t have the same “want” or dedication I do. I expect with a decent angler every fish we get a shot at should at least see the fly.


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

Loogie said:


> The last 50’ (60/70 etc) are all up to, no one can make that cast for you. If you cant make the cast, it’s on you, if you don’t want advice, tell the advisor to keep his advice to himself. However if a guide has a suggestion about the situation and what conditions he is giving and the type of cast you need, that’s not advice, that’s direction, you need to listen and interpret what he is telling you. You may choose to ignore the advice and turn your trip into a $500 boat ride. The last, 50’ are all up to you, whether you listen to advice or not…


$500 for a half day!


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## B8duncan (Aug 15, 2019)

As a new guide in my area and good advice I've heeded, my stance on the matter is that any guide who is not "high profile" enough to pick and chose their clientele roster is in no position to show their frustration to the client about their casting ability. Of note, I do agree it can be frustrating having clients on the bow that you're focusing on correcting issues in their cast rather than focusing on directions like speed of retrieve for the given situation etc however that does not give ANY guide the right to SHOW that frustration to the client. We're supposed to be professionals on the water and at the end of the day the guide is the one that accepted the booking and getting paid for their effort! 

I try to engage with my clients before the day of the trip and get an idea of their skill level in order to set expectations for the day not only for them but also for me. I typically ask them up front "what is your goal for the day? Are you after your new PB redfish? or are you wanting to jumpstart the learning process?" (side note, let's be real people we are all students of this craft no matter how talented we become. it's a lifetime pursuit) I may get frustrated after having so many odd "Newbies" on the bow and not bringing in any fish to the skiff due to missed shots but I remind myself I'm still a new guide and I will gladly take any clients I can get right now. 

Besides, the best advice I've been given is that as a guide, if you envision one day having a full roster of high caliber anglers each year then get started building it from the ground floor up. Teach your clients to grow as anglers as you grow as a guide and sure enough one day you will have that full roster of rock stars! And better yet it will feel that much more rewarding knowing that you have been a huge part of each of your anglers journey to this elusive thing we call perfection! 

Sorry for the rant, just a topic I've put much thought and discussion into before.


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

B8duncan said:


> As a new guide in my area and good advice I've heeded, my stance on the matter is that any guide who is not "high profile" enough to pick and chose their clientele roster is in no position to show their frustration to the client about their casting ability. Of note, I do agree it can be frustrating having clients on the bow that you're focusing on correcting issues in their cast rather than focusing on directions like speed of retrieve for the given situation etc however that does not give ANY guide the right to SHOW that frustration to the client. We're supposed to be professionals on the water and at the end of the day the guide is the one that accepted the booking and getting paid for their effort!
> 
> I try to engage with my clients before the day of the trip and get an idea of their skill level in order to set expectations for the day not only for them but also for me. I typically ask them up front "what is your goal for the day? Are you after your new PB redfish? or are you wanting to jumpstart the learning process?" (side note, let's be real people we are all students of this craft no matter how talented we become. it's a lifetime pursuit) I may get frustrated after having so many odd "Newbies" on the bow and not bringing in any fish to the skiff due to missed shots but I remind myself I'm still a new guide and I will gladly take any clients I can get right now.
> 
> ...


With that attitude, you’ll be “high profile “ sooner than later!👍


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## SS06 (Apr 6, 2021)

I suck and I know it, I'm working on my casting..and i tell everyone i fish with im still a mediocre fly caster....but if I'm paying you $600-$1000, and I made you aware of my deficiencies, you had better be treating me as well as you would treat ANY other angler...period


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

When both the guide and the client want to communicate with one another you have a good combination for a fun day on the water. Reasonable expectations all the way around help too. That usually comes from good communication.

A casting tuneup or a few tips while fishing might be beneficial. You’ll learn lots more when you’re not trying to catch fish but practicing your technique. Then put that on the water. 

Someone who can maybe only cast 50 feet but tries hard and wants to improve — I have all day for them. It’s hard not to think that someone who never practices and doesn’t apply themselves is just not serious about it. Maybe they want to go because it’s cool and trendy or maybe they just like being outside that can be OK too. It’s nice to know in advance what they really want, otherwise how can you supply it?

My rule is that everyone on the boat should have fun.


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## MRichardson (May 27, 2010)

If I were a guide I wouldn't tell the angler it was a wasted day. But I'd tell my friends.


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## redjim (Oct 16, 2012)

brokeoff said:


> Not a guide.
> 
> With that being said, everyone starts at the same place on the bow. So much is learned from just getting up there.
> 
> Everyone needs to be honest with themselves about their abilities, goes for all parties. I wonder if Mr. Huff complains about wasted days on the water?


Mr Huff, knows all of his clients like the back of hand. I doubt he complains about anything. 

The world would be a much better place with more people like Steve Huff.


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## BrownDog (Jun 22, 2019)

There is no wasted day on the water.

most anglers are pretty aware when it is their casting holding them back. Your job is to help them improve, NEVER let them beat themselves up over it and feel defeated.


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## HelthInsXpert (Jan 24, 2018)

I think for some of the well-known guides the thought is that there are enough people who are waiting to fish with them that for them to take a day helping somebody learn to cast, vs guiding somebody who already has the skills and really wants to fish with said guide, that the day is somewhat of a waste. It probably comes across as pretty arrogant and maybe it is, but there are only so many days in a week, month, year, etc.


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## WhiskeyLoops (Aug 22, 2021)

I spent months practising casting before my frist salt water trip and booked two different guides for back to back days in Charleston. The first guide got me on a few fish but I would immediately break them off by death gripping and pulling the line. Turns out I had no idea how to fight a bigger fish and get them on the reel. The captain was clearly pissed/frustrated and shut down on me other than pointing out fish the rest of the day, which was pretty awkward and not fun. 

The second day I went out with another captain (member here) and the same thing happened on the first and second fish. The captain immediately stopped the boat and we talked about what I was doing wrong for a long time, he took his time and walked me through the strip-set, letting the fish run and getting the fish on the reel. The next fish I caught I was too afraid to break off and barely set the hook (even though we caught it), we spent the rest of the day focusing on setting/fighting and landing fish. It turned out to be a great day of learning and catching fish. Moreso, I feel we developed a good relationship, he knew I wanted to learn and that I just needed coaching and he was more than willing to work with me on that. That captain has my business for life and I've used him multiple times since. Looking back on the first day makes me laugh and almost embarrassed, but I imagine as a guide who can watch an angler grow in their skills and abilities over the years has got to be pretty cool. 

Professionalism is always important and expected, but I think a great guide has the ability to read their client and figure out the right communication method to get through to them and help them become a better angler (if they are willing to listen)


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## Kamtam (7 mo ago)

There’s good and bad guides, find one you enjoy being on a boat with and will actually teach you something rather than worrying about how many fish they’re catching. Be up front with your guide of your skills and what you’d like to work on if possible. If you enjoyed your trip with them, tip them well. If they were rude then find another guide. Don’t be a sh*tty client. It’s about the experience not catching fish.


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## WC53 (Dec 2, 2015)

If they find fish and get you a shot they did their job. Cold Stella, bonus. I always tell them I suck as a caster. Set the bar  depending on my shoulder that day, it could be true. Arthritis sucks.


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

redjim said:


> Mr Huff, knows all of his clients like the back of hand. I doubt he complains about anything.
> 
> The world would be a much better place with more people like Steve Huff.


Mr Huff would have new clients make a cast soon after they were on the skiff, if they did not perform to his standards he would take them back to the dock. He also has had a limited number of clients for decades. 
I fished with an excellent tarpon guide this season. He gave tons of tips and encouragement. I could also sense his frustration and passion. I could deal with his frustration because of his passion and how hard he worked. He saw my improvement and invited me back for next season. While I fish tarpon hard I can only afford a guide for a few days, and he will be it. Some folks can't take criticism, some can. Guides are people, they jave personalities and character traits like all of us, find one you like. Or don't if you have money to waste. I often times have friends who are fly anglers who express an interest in learning to pole, most of the time I end up guiding them as being on poling platform intimidates them. Sometimes I don't mind, sometimes I do. If I'm getting you shots at tarpon and you can't reciprocate by poling and positioning the boat, i am most likely done fishing with you.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

The keys to a good trip are first, communicating with the guide before the trip and second, managing your expectations. Yes, you should practice regularly, whether it is lawn casting or preferably on the water but the truth is most fly fishermen don’t. The best time to practice isn’t on the bow of the guide’s skiff. That being said, if you’re honest with the guide and yourself with your ability, both of you will have a better trip. A good guide will be able to get you close enough to get some decent shots. A good client will listen to the guide, taking criticism and instruction with an open mind and a willingness to learn and get better. I asked the guide I fished with yesterday how I was doing and he said, “the vast majority of my clients are new so I’m non stop coaching, tying all the knots, calling the fish etc. This is easy, you can cast, see the fish and you tie all your own knots. I can focus on keeping us in the right spot and spotting more fish. I also don’t have to worry about you hitting me with the fly which is a big bonus.” He also said that the worst clients are the ones that won’t listen. They suck, they don’t catch many fish if any, end up frustrated and neither have a good day on the water.
As one of the tarpon guides I fish with says jokingly, “you’re up, don’t suck.”


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

Fishshoot said:


> Mr Huff would have new clients make a cast soon after they were on the skiff, if they did not perform to his standards he would take them back to the dock. He also has had a limited number of clients for decades.
> I fished with an excellent tarpon guide this season. He gave tons of tips and encouragement. I could also sense his frustration and passion. I could deal with his frustration because of his passion and how hard he worked. He saw my improvement and invited me back for next season. While I fish tarpon hard I can only afford a guide for a few days, and he will be it. Some folks can't take criticism, some can. Guides are people, they jave personalities and character traits like all of us, find one you like. Or don't if you have money to waste. I often times have friends who are fly anglers who express an interest in learning to pole, most of the time I end up guiding them as being on poling platform intimidates them. Sometimes I don't mind, sometimes I do. If I'm getting you shots at tarpon and you can't reciprocate by poling and positioning the boat, i am most likely done fishing with you.


The first part about Huff is kinda sad! I know that he was one of the greats, but I almost can’t believe that he would return to the dock if guests didn’t “pass the test”!😳


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

It is not sad in my opinion. When a guide works that hard and a client does not have the ability to take advantage of the opportunities the guide provides it is disrespectful to the guide. It's ignorant to think that a guide is going to get you more fish than your ability, or lack there of, allows.


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

Fishshoot said:


> It is not sad in my opinion. When a guide works that hard and a client does not have the ability to take advantage of the opportunities the guide provides it is disrespectful to the guide. It's ignorant to think that a guide is going to get you more fish than your ability, or lack there of, allows.


Being a guide is more than just fish count! It’s teacher, analyst, comedian, and sometimes, server/chef! Some (guests) only care about the count and choose their guide accordingly while others want to enjoy the whole experience.


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## Poon.Patrol (Jan 28, 2021)

I am not a guide however I am an overly obsessed fly angler. I can understand the frustration a guide has when they have worked so hard to gather the knowledge, experience, and effort to get you that shot. As the person on the poling platform you can only do so much for your angler to get that perfect shot to a fish. Current, wind, chop, moving fish... so many variables come into consideration on boat placement for the person on the bow. It is a lot of work to do all of this at a moments notice as tarpon shots come fast... It takes a bit to really collaborate with your angler or person poling but its about communication... Once the person on the platform understands what your capabilities and limits are, it is their job to decide whether or not you are capable of the shot they are going to set you up on. If you know my back hand shot in the wind sucks don't set me up for that shot and then get frustrated I wasn't able to perform...

As the angler it is your duty to make that shot count to the best of your ability that was communicated to the person poling. I tell my fishing partners all the time my success is greatly attributed to them and I am the first to apologize for blowing a shot whether its me getting buck fever and over shooting a cast or line management issues in the wind etc etc. To make your days on the water count it is imperative to practice casting. Less false casting, accuracy, controlling your line after you have made your shot, casting unbalanced due to chop hitting your boat, back hand casts, how to cast with wind at all different directions without hooking anyone or yourself. Just like anything in life... you get back whatever you put in to it.


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## Brandon Alexander (Jun 6, 2017)

Most folks don't have any idea what they're getting into the first time they step onto the bow of a skiff. You can't truly explain the things they need to be able to accomplish to get attached to a redfish, or a tarpon, or a trout, etc until you put them there.

I don't view a day with my client who doesn't have a good chance of catching a fish as a wasted day. I'm going to show him/her as many shots as I can so that they know for next time what they need to be able to do. Hopefully they have enough fun that they want to improve and come back. I'm only in year two but snipers don't show up on your bow everyday. It's just as much my job to help make my anglers become good anglers as it is to get them buttoned to a fish. You won't get one without the other.


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## FairFlies (9 mo ago)

My first Post here. I am a 28 year veteran Salmon/Trout/Steelhead/whitewater guide from the NW and now relocated to the SE. 

As a guide we want the best day possible for our guests. This is how we get paid after all. Building rapport is the first step of that experience. We start our day looking to judge the skills of our guests watching them cast and seeing how they respond to input. Do we need to knock off some morning jitters, a little rust or are the skills just not there yet. This immediately tells us where we can take that guest to have the most success given their abilities. Some times I just know they will not be able to perform what is needed to get into certain spots. There are arrogant guides and I have seen guides cuss out guests. They are in the wrong business. Guides that care ask the guest what he or she is interested in for the day. Some times people tell me that they really want the time to learn with a chance of getting a fish they otherwise may not have a chance at. Some just want fish, and others have the skills and want a shot at the largest fish. I have to know how to serve each of these guests to be successful. It has to be about tailoring the experience. 

As for guests, practice practice, practice. Go to your local fly shop and take a class or 10. learn how to place a fly consistently in wind at 60+ feet. Challenge yourself to cast through hoops, under obstacles, and again in heavy wind how to lad it in an 18" ring or smaller. The better you can perform the more the guide will show you and the better chance your expensive day on the water and the time and travel to get there will produce a fish. Treat your guide with respect and the day will go great. Listen even if you think you already know. If the guide is saying something it's because he sees something you don't. All he or she want's for you is a successful day catching fish!

I recently had my first chance to chase Permit on a hosted trip to Guanaja. The host was fairly intense and I had him day one in my boat. I did a couple things right up front, 1) I stood up on the bow and threw a cast clear into my backing to demonstrate my abilities to both the host and the guide. Then let him know I was open to constructive criticism if it was going to improve my ability to land a fish. 2) I threw a 60 ft cast at 11:00 and asked the guide how far out he thought it was and what angle he would call it so I would have a gauge when he yelled "Fish, 50ft @ 11:30!" It's always good to get your communication lined out right away so you are not missing fish trying to dial it in. 10 guests on the trip and a tough tide/moon cycle but I was able to land my first permit with hopefully many more to come. I was the only one to land a permit that week, it was an 80 ft back-cast in 30mph gusts to a fish the guide hadn't seen yet and a true treat for a new to me species. It was every skill I've sought coaches to gain over decades and I even hired a PT to stretch and strengthen the right muscles to have the power I was going to need. Even with years of time on the water I didn't want to go straight off the couch, I worked out and practiced every day till we left. 

I listened to guests complain their guide was too close to the fish and they just were not getting a chance at the spooky fish. I then sat and listened to the guides talk about how their customers that claimed they could throw their line off their reel, were not able to throw 20 ft and they were doing their best to get them in spots they could even cast to. It's a team effort and I can promise you in most cases if you don't get your fish, it's your fault. We can give you the right fly/lure, we can find the fish, and we can put you in position to cast to them, but we can't throw your cast, set the hook or play the fish out for you. That's all up to the guest bottom line. It is fishing, some times it does not all come together. In the NW the chances of being skunked are high. It needs to be a high and falling tide before sunup just after a rain to get your best chances at a steelhead and you can't choose your calendar date for that. If it isn't all firing at the same time it can take you years to figure it out on the fly. Guides improve your chances 300% but you have your part to do too!

I love guiding and I love learning new things from other guides and guests. It's always a team effort and a relationship. After all, it's supposed to be FUN!


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## Dan Leverette (Nov 1, 2018)

does the phrase “a bad day of fishing is better then a good day at work” apply to fishing guides?


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## Phil Young (May 10, 2019)

Fly fishing and casting can be very frustrating for some people. I teach fly casting to 14 to 18 year olds as part of our Trout Unlimited Youth Education program and previously with the Orvis fly fishing program. You can spend 30 minutes showing the student the 4-step casting process (1 - lift the line off the water, 2 - back cast and stop, 3 - forward cast and stop, 4 - follow the line and lower the rod to the water) and they will have a presentable cast. As soon as they hit the water to fish, the cast devolves into the "windshield wiper". Either find someone to help you work on your cast or watch some good casting videos, learn what problems you have with the cast and how to correct them, and then practice and do correct them. I have introduced adults to fly fishing, then fished with them and they have had respectable success. A year later, I will invite them to another fishing trip, and find out (when on the water) that they have not picked up a fly rod in 12 months. Fly casting is muscle memory - practice, practice, practice.

When I first started saltwater fly fishing about 25 years ago, the guide would ask me to get up on the bow and cast "to straighten the line". I had already "straightened the line" in the motel room on the previous day, but I knew exactly what he wanted. He was watching my cast so that he knew where to position the boat. I do the same thing now when I am on the poling platform with a new fly fishing friend. The best complement a guide can give you is one I heard when a friend and I had a cold, cold winter day, spey casting for steelhead on the Muskegon River. As we got ready to step out of his drift boat, the guide said "You two can fish out of my boat anytime."


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## Capt.Ron (Mar 5, 2014)

A guides 1st job is to give the best experience possible for that day, that may depend on skill some days. But helping the client improve their skill is part of the job. The client may have to adjust their personal expectations, due to their skill set. My advice, is get some good lessons on double haul casting. Leave the single haul for the rainbow trout.


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## Zaraspook (Aug 3, 2017)

You need to get over it. That’s how one guide would shoot the shit with another guide. No big deal. I wonder what your wife or girlfriend is saying about you to other chicks. The better you cast a fly rod or any other type of fishing equipment the more you will be rewarded. Every guide likes a good caster. It means more satisfaction and less frustration.


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

There are guides with many different standards and personalities. Its your job as a client to find the ones or the one that works for you. Research, trial and error, self practice etc.


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

7WT said:


> There are guides with many different standards and personalities. Its your job as a client to find the ones or the one that works for you. Research, trial and error, self practice etc.


I agree! I think that some of the really critical, low/little patience guides probably don’t build much of a return client base!


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

If your a guide, more power to ya.
I've been a businessman since around 1977.
Even thought about trying to be a guide back then (lived in largo).
Little soul searching and I envisioned being civil to a customer on the water with me for a day... 
Being a customer deserves it, being a good person, not so much.
Only reason I hire guides is because they've a boat where I do not and want to fish.
If I'd been a crook or a better people person I'd retired 10 years sooner and hiring more guides.


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## Fliesbynight (Mar 23, 2020)

@mro, I hear ya. Never though about being a guide because I know who I am. There is no way I could be civil to a jerk who thinks hiring a guide means non-stop fish in the boat with no skill or effort on their part.

I believe my boat would have come back about 180 lbs lighter than when in went out more than once.




mro said:


> If I'd been a crook or a better people person I'd retired 10 years sooner and hiring more guides.


Sometimes it sucks to have a conscience but I'm right there with you.


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## Brandon Alexander (Jun 6, 2017)

Fliesbynight said:


> @mro, I hear ya. Never though about being a guide because I know who I am. There is no way I could be civil to a jerk who thinks hiring a guide means non-stop fish in the boat with no skill or effort on their part.
> 
> I believe my boat would have come back about 180 lbs lighter than when in went out more than once.
> 
> ...


It's pretty easy to avoid those kinds of customers by asking a set of simple questions during the booking process. Those guys usually end the conversation pretty quick as soon as I mention booking a guide is not a guarantee to catch fish.

It's important to ensure they know your expectations of them as well. And knowing the guys that will catch bait, make casts, net fish, hold the fish, and take care of the rest is smart. Some people don't want a sight fishing charter and that's totally okay. They can take a ride on my buddy's bay boat or shoalwater.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

The closest I come to being a guide is when I take kids or someone I like that wants to try fishing.
Seeing a kid light up catching a fish is just cool. Night Crawlers and live minnows have there place.


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## Connor Mcnichols (Feb 12, 2019)

Honesty is the best policy on both ends, if you are a new caster tell your potential guide. As the customer hiring a guide at a hundred an hour, it’s a pretty expensive casting lesson. Many people still want the experience of the guide day even though they have little casting experience. If your potential guide doesn’t want to take you, most would be happy to recommend you to a more “good time” oriented guide who’s outputs are not as important. Everyone at every level should spend alittle time with a casting instructor!


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## Dawhoo (Oct 27, 2015)

Fliesbynight said:


> @mro, I hear ya. Never though about being a guide because I know who I am. There is no way I could be civil to a jerk who thinks hiring a guide means non-stop fish in the boat with no skill or effort on their part.
> 
> I believe my boat would have come back about 180 lbs lighter than when in went out more than once.
> 
> ...


I think I am glad you aren’t a guide as well…


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## RGSIII (7 mo ago)

Guides are hired by an individual. They should be able to understand that the job changes between different clients, not everyone is a Lefty Kreh. If the client is not a good caster, their job changes into attempting to improve their casting and teaching them about fishing. How is a client going to improve if they don't go with, "the best?"

If a guide makes a trip miserable does he refund the guide fee, lost time and expenses involved in the trip? If a guide wants to set standards regarding casting, they should make their casting prerequisites known up front.


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## Dawhoo (Oct 27, 2015)

I once knew a "famed" cardiologist that would only accept patients that had been cleared of cardiac disease. His services were so "sought after" he felt it was a wasted appointment if his patients didn't suddenly have excellent cardiac function by the time he walked in the room. This expectation made the consultation much less frustrating for him.


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## SkiffsDoWha (Dec 23, 2016)

I was a guide in the mid/late 90’s-early 2000’s in Arkansas. When I met my clients I talked to them to figure out who would start in the back of the boat. My logic was the least experienced person started up front so I could teach them what to do while explaining to them what the person in the back would be doing in order to indirectly tell the person in the back what to do. Worst case scenario is when people are not up front about experience or expectations. That’s kinda like only having dry fly rods in the boat when people want to streamer fish. The best guides understand their client’s expectations and taylor their knowledge and skill to these expectations in relation to the day’s conditions.


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## Outearly (Oct 20, 2015)

This is an interesting thread-

To the OP, having some insecurity about your casting skills is pretty normal. I had a lot of that insecurity put into perspective while watching stretch of the Snake River in Grand Teton NP. I could see five fisherman, spread out pretty good. One could cast, the others flailed. After that, I figured the average caster is just above flailing. The people on this thread are pretty avid fishermen in mostly tough conditions, so my guess is they're all above average, but all of us (me more than most) have a screw up waiting to happen every once in a while.

The other thing that makes me think the average guy can't really cast too well is that I went on a trip to Belize, nice guide, poled up to some little bones and I made a 50'-ish nothing special cast to them and the guide said, "You can cast!" like he just didn't see it that much.

If you want to see where you really are, ask your guide to go up front and make a few casts, just to see what it really looks like. FairFlies described it pretty well in his post. I asked that of a guide once in howling wind and the guide snapped a tight loop right into the teeth of the wind, rattling the line through the guides. Those guys are just on another level.

Which brings me to my last point:

There are so many similarities between golf and fly fishing. People love both, there's always a new club, rod, ball, reel, shirt or whatever that's going to make you play or fish really well. That, of course, doesn't really work. It's talent and practice. Playing by the rules of golf, most people can't even come close to breaking 100.

The big difference between the two is that the top golfers make big money, and play golf. They never have to play with a hacker.

The top fly fisherman can only really make a living doing that by guiding people who - in my analogy with golf- can't break 100.

Almost every guide I've fished with understands that, and makes the day as pleasant and productive as the conditions and their clients (and the fish) allow, and are truly nice people.


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## Beauvet (8 mo ago)

Good answer and well put. You and a few others have answered the question. The original post wasn't well worded and the idea that this was a guide question sort of took off. I should have just asked

In a guides opinion, how many clients cast excellent, good, poorly, forget it?

I believe I cast fairly well but I don't see lots of others cast. I'm not so keen on asking a guide to take me to the fish and frustrating them based on my own impressions of my skills. Whether they are frustrated or not is sort of irrelevant bc I would be frustrated for them. We all know the guide/ clients are people and have different expectations and need to meet somewhere in the middle. (This has also been covered well)
I'm not so sure it helps to know what guides think about their clients casting ability bc it has little or no bearing on my casting ability...
Here's the gist I got
If you are unsure about your casting, practice more🙂


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## WC53 (Dec 2, 2015)

We all get zeroed in on that long cast in the wind. I know I did. My main rod from 40-70 is money to me. I can’t see further than that. Now, a 15 foot shot on a rising red, lol, unless it is flop cast, I can’t do it (absent a bass line  ) Now give me a different tool and no problem. So as you practice, know your limitations with specific gear based on conditions.


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## Outearly (Oct 20, 2015)

WC53 said:


> We all get zeroed in on that long cast in the wind. I know I did. My main rod from 40-70 is money to me. I can’t see further than that. Now, a 15 foot shot on a rising red, lol, unless it is flop cast, I can’t do it (absent a bass line  ) Now give me a different tool and no problem. So as you practice, know your limitations with specific gear based on conditions.


I had to laugh at this. The first time I fished from a skiff for reds, I practiced and practiced long casts.

I got on the platform in a little bayou, with fish 15’ away, and I was sunk. Took a while to figure out … whatever that is… a flop?


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## Keith Sharp (10 mo ago)

Outearly said:


> ... all of us (me more than most) have a screw up waiting to happen every once in a while.


I like the golf analogy. Every once in a while, we can hit a shot like Tiger Woods. We may have some memorable casts, too. One I remember from years ago is was a 50ish foot shot to a dinner-plate size hole in the lilly pads. The water exploded like a bowling ball had been dropped into it! Turns out there was a pike there that I scared to death. Those perfect casts can keep you trying for more. The screw-ups are a different type of motivator.


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## B8duncan (Aug 15, 2019)

To the OP, I think your take away is correct. Practice practice practice. and when you're done practicing, practice some more! It's a life long pursuit and I don't care how long you've been casting or how precise your cast is, there's always something to improve on! But that doesn't mean it has to be miserable, enjoy the journey of improving your cast and honestly if you want to book a guide I think it's the best way to knock that learning curve down a notch (assuming you find the right guide). 

Guide's are a great way to not only learn how to cast but to learn how to be an outdoorsman, a waterman, how to learn what signs to look for on the water, learn about the estuary and how the natural flow of the habitat in and out of the water! Long story short, it's your journey and so long as you are enjoying your time on the water and feel that you're making progress then no one (even a "high profile" guide) can take that away from you! 

Get out there and fish it brother!


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## WC53 (Dec 2, 2015)

Outearly said:


> I had to laugh at this. The first time I fished from a skiff for reds, I practiced and practiced long casts.
> 
> I got on the platform in a little bayou, with fish 15’ away, and I was sunk. Took a while to figure out … whatever that is… a flop?


I always called a flop when you rotate the rod 180 and throw a giant loop for a quick very short cast. But I am old and unfortunately not any wiser


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## The Fin (Sep 28, 2021)

WC53 said:


> I always called a flop when you rotate the rod 180 and throw a giant loop for a quick very short cast. But I am old and unfortunately not any wiser


I had a guide call for a shot at 9 o’clock, 15’! We were scanning the right side flat for Permit. Needless to say, all that I could do was to “flop” the cast over my shoulder without looking. I landed right in the middle of 4 Tarpon approaching the boat that scattered like billiard balls. Fortunately, one turned back and grabbed my crab which was on 16 lb. tippet and soon departed!


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

Fliesbynight said:


> no way I could be civil to a jerk


I've no problem keeping calm and a reasonable demeaner with turkeys. 
I've tended bar and was a pool shooter before I got married.
You can not do either without running into jerks or worse, (the married part was great tho  )
Hired my first guide in the 80's and so far have never had a problem with one.


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