# 7wt Fly Rod pushing the limits or its me?



## grass bass (Aug 29, 2017)

Rio Gold is a half-weight heavy and in a 7wt should be plenty of line for handling a bead-chain #8. But the Mojo Bass rod is a bass rod... I don't know the rod, just read the product blurbs on St Croix's website, that plus the name, suggests to me it's probably intended to be paired with a bass line. For a point of reference, the SA bass lines are TWO line weights heavy. May be that you need more mass in your line to make the rod work for you.


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## grass bass (Aug 29, 2017)

If your leader is tied in thirds, try extending the butt section, up to half the overall length, 50/25/25.

But I think the rod/line pairing is the thing. No reason it shouldn't sling most of a line readily, if it's the right line. The length is going to cost some distance, but you go to short rods for accuracy (and to be bass tourney legal in this case I think?), not distance.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

Try and bass or redfish taper. Gold is more of an all around taper with a longer front taper. With that rod, you'll likely get better performance using a line that has a short front taper for more aggressive loading of the rod and punching into wind if needed.


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

You should not be "pushing the rod", just thinking maybe get out of the kayak and just practice your cast, get your timing down and tight loops and let the rod do the work for you.


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## RJTaylor (Oct 4, 2017)

I've got the 9wt for fishing docks, and short shot conditions(cloudy days). You will be better off with a redfish taper on it. It's also plenty capable of bombing shots out to 80. Change you're line, and keep practicing.


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## Bjorn240 (Jul 24, 2020)

A line weight heavy or a line weight light doesn’t make any real difference (in casting distance); you can adjust for it. You should be able to cast that combo 80 feet with literally no discernible effort. Post a video of you casting. That’s the place to start. 

How is your double haul? 

Even without a haul, pick up 15, slip to 25 on the back cast, forward cast, slip to 35 on the back cast, deliver forward cast - seems like an easy 50 feet to me…


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

I'd bet a beer that throwing another line on that same rod won't solve your problem. It's the combination of things - changing one won't necessarily improve the other.

Your setup is doing what is intended to do. I've fished bass rods for years and they are not exactly the right rods for distance and accuracy. They are meant for quick, shorter cast with heavier lines (sinking heads) and to turn over big bass flies. 7'11" is the maximum length allowed for rods in bass tournaments, so that is the reason for that length. It has nothing to do with its design for making it a better casting rod.

Your line is also a heavy front taper that intended for close in shots.

So you have two things working against you - a shorter rod that won't win distance and accuracy awards, and a taper that is front weighted and made for closer in shots.

Many kayak fisherman use longer rods - 9'6" length - since this gives the line more clearance over the water while sitting down, which also will provide more clearance to cast longer since there is more room. A shorter rod does the opposite.

I suggest trying another rod combo - something 9' that was designed to perform for distance. I also read you could not "feel" the cast on a previous rod, but are powering this rod to get it out there, but lose control of the line. Bass rods really don't have great feel - when I fish them, I haul the crap out of them and shoot line - it is a very different cast than what I do on a 9' rod for reds or other fish.

TFO Mangrove is a great rod for the price - you can easily feel the load, it performs well close in and at distance. For lines, I am not a fan of tapers that are drastically over weighted. Redfish tapers are great for guides who have clients that can't see fish until they are at the boat and need a line to quickly turn over flies, but they are not the best line to learn good casting mechanics. Wulff Bermuda Triangle Taper is my favorite line and I've outfit many people with this rod and line combo and seen great results.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

I bet a real good caster or instructor could help you sort this out. I would not spend any money to change your gear until then.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Hank said:


> I bet a real good caster or instructor could help you sort this out. I would not spend any money to change your gear until then.


Any casting instructor will not teach on the setup in question. Its specialized, and not geared to learn the basic mechanics.


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

Not the point. OP needs it sorted out. That is gonna take someone standing right there with him to say why its not working and maybe to sell him what will work.


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## PTLuv2Fish (Feb 10, 2021)

I have been working on the cast and also got some adult supervision on the water today from a guy that can use a fly rod. I'm not gonna change anything until I can get to an instructor. I practiced casting from the casting platform at mullet, wakes and pushes with his 8wt. Had one for real cast a Redfish and was able to put the fly within about 1.5 feet of him but he wasn't interested/spooked ?? He was close maybe 20 feet? Anyway I probably will get another rod eventually but for close in shots I think this will work. When I am pushing around on my little Gheenoe it seems I'm within 20-30 feet max anyway when I seem them and the problem is stopping the boat first. Standing in bottom of a Gheenoe doesn't give you the range to spot them as far out as my friends BT with a platform. Thank you to all of you that helped me with this, hopefully I can post a pic of my first Red sight fished and caught with a fly soon.


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## karstopo (Nov 28, 2019)

I don’t know that specific rod, but I do regularly fly fish off boat decks, wading or standing from a kayak and have for years with several different 8 foot or less fly rods otf various materials and actions. The Echo BAG 6 weight 8’ Quickshot, 7’6” 7/8 weight G.Loomis Short Stix, the about all the CGR series, none top 7’6”. Any of these 8’ or less rods in the 6-8 weight range are accurate out to 70‘ without that much effort, no special lines necessary really, although a heavy head line will shoot out nicely. If 35-40 feet is the limit of what you can control with your 7 weight set up I would look at your mechanics in your cast, something likely isn’t quite right, maybe some little tweak on timing or power is needed. Hard to know without seeing the cast.

I like to cast off my dock and play around with the cast. I never bothered with lessons, just watched Chico Fernandez on a DVD cast and that instruction made sense to me. Books are mostly useless, in my experience. Casting off a dock or deck seems to help nail down some stuff. Don’t just repeat the cast you already know over and over and maybe not love so much. Try different arm angles. Arm in closer to body, Less of this, more of that. Maybe play around some something will click.


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## Mnigro (Apr 24, 2018)

Just a thought but Rio trout lines get kind of gummy in hot weather/water combo. Without a trout stream to cool off the line… not saying this is 100% the cause of your casting problem but might be a factor. For winter fishing, line should be ok but I would try and pick up a bass/redfish line if you can.

longer casts is also more about shooting line, not carrying 60 feet of line on the back cast. It can be done but skills gotta be top notch to get there.


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## Bonesonthebrain (Jan 2, 2020)

I agree with coconutgroves, using an overweight line is not the best idea to fix an issue. Overweight lines are good for specific uses, short casts and turning over big flies, but really do not help that much for wind and definitely are not good for aerialising. A bonefish taper is perfectly fine for wind and keeping a lot of line in the air, if you have a solid casting stroke. Using an overweight heavy front taper line might seem better in wind at first, but once you try to push the rod it will be over powered. Yes, I do understand that many lines are over weight for their listed weight. Equipment does make a difference, but the suggestion to get casting lessons is the best advice so far.

Bring your rod to a fly shop and cast it with some other rods/lines, hopefully it wil become apparent what works well for you.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

@PTLuv2Fish - developing a good casting stroke takes years. Sounds like you are still pretty new to it, and the good news is you are learning in the salt water which means you'll learn the right mechanics and not have to undo any bad habits. Many people who learn in the streams and rivers have a hard time adjusting when moving to the salt.

There are tons of books out there about casting, but the best principles and mechanics that I trust and believe are from Joan Wulff. If you do any reading, I suggest her stuff.


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## PTLuv2Fish (Feb 10, 2021)

coconutgroves said:


> @PTLuv2Fish - developing a good casting stroke takes years. Sounds like you are still pretty new to it, and the good news is you are learning in the salt water which means you'll learn the right mechanics and not have to undo any bad habits. Many people who learn in the streams and rivers have a hard time adjusting when moving to the salt.
> 
> There are tons of books out there about casting, but the best principles and mechanics that I trust and believe are from Joan Wulff. If you do any reading, I suggest her stuff.


I put my 4 wt together today and in about 2 min was casting loops the size of a dinner plate, this rod though flexes probably 50% more than that 7 wt. It has a basic trout floating line nothing special about it. I know I still have work to do on my cast and am for sure getting some lessons soon. Had been about a year since i cast that 4 wt because I just haven't done any bream fishing as of late. I could see that rods tip flex and shoot that loop forward, I dont think there is gonna be any great distance cast from this rod but pretty loop felt good! I am definately never buying another fly rod unless I can cast it first even if it cost me more. It will be well worth it.








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## Mnigro (Apr 24, 2018)

Do you find you have yo work harder on your casts as the day goes on?


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## PTLuv2Fish (Feb 10, 2021)

Mnigro said:


> Do you find you have yo work harder on your casts as the day goes on?


I have just started taking the fly rod out on my Redfish trips and I don't fan cast for fish. I do fan cast with the spinning gear but am too lazy to with the fly rod So no I might only cast it a few times during the day looking for fish.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

Like @coconutgroves said, the fly rods marketed as "bass rods" aren't for bombing out long casts. They're for short, quick shots with big flies. But, depending on where you're fishing, if you're fly fishing out of a kayak this setup is ideal IMHO. Firstly, redfish generally aren't going to spook even if you bonk them on the head with a fly so you don't have to get all that delicate in your presentation. Second, if you're in a kayak your sightlines are limited. Unless the fish are waking or tailing you're not going to see them very far away so your shots are usually going to be inside 30-45 feet at the most.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

First try some food grade silicone, spray on your reel and the guides. Then get back to us


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## spc7669 (Apr 15, 2015)

Mnigro said:


> Just a thought but Rio trout lines get kind of gummy in hot weather/water combo. Without a trout stream to cool off the line… not saying this is 100% the cause of your casting problem but might be a factor. For winter fishing, line should be ok but I would try and pick up a bass/redfish line if you can.
> 
> longer casts is also more about shooting line, not carrying 60 feet of line on the back cast. It can be done but skills gotta be top notch to get there.


^^^^^This. Trout line is for cold water and nymphing is not a distance game. RIO used to make a basic warm water saltwater line for about 40 bucks. I think this would serve you much better and you could probably use it for carp and bass as well.


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## BM_Barrelcooker (May 4, 2011)

Make sure you are loading the rod good on the backstroke. 
sometimes the shorter rod will have a different sensation and mess up the rhythm .

absolutely no reason why you should be having to power through it. Smooth and rhythmic.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Once I get people to get the basic mechanics down, I have them focus solely on back casting - specifically, reversing the casting where the back cast is for placement to the fish. I've noticed a few guides on the Mill House podcast say this is very important to learn and completely agree.

What this does is a few things....

It turns the caster where they see their backcast, so making corrections are faster since you are seeing it unfold.

It tightens up the back cast a substantial amount.

It gives the angler way more freedom to make casts to fish that are not at the ideal angle. Having a good backcast can double the number of shots an angler can take in a day - not all fish pop up between 9 and 12 - so many come up at 2 and 3.

But the main thing is that a good cast is really 80% back cast. If the back cast is solid, the forward cast is effortless. All the energy is already stored on the backcast, so it is just laying it down nicely on the forward and transferring that energy to the line.

When I was learning, I took shoes out to a football field and set them up at 30, 40, 50 feet. Repeated until I was accurate front and back. Moved to 50, 60, 70. Repeat. Sure, accuracy goes down as distance increases. But if you can be deadly at 40 and 50, that's all you need.

And if you ever find the fly and the line tangling in the air, or the fly hitting the line on the forward cast - that is due to fly accelerating faster than the fly line itself. This is caused by trying to force it on that final stroke - muscling it on the power stroke just before the stop on the forward cast.


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## fatman (Nov 23, 2012)

coconutgroves said:


> When I was learning, I took shoes out to a football field and set them up at 30, 40, 50 feet. Repeated until I was accurate front and back. Moved to 50, 60, 70. Repeat. Sure, accuracy goes down as distance increases. But if you can be deadly at 40 and 50, that's all you need.


tri-footed?


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

Hank said:


> I bet a real good caster or instructor could help you sort this out. I would not spend any money to change your gear until then.


Good advice.

I just got my first fly rod last week. I have thrown every day in the yard for at least 30 minutes trying to learn to cast. 

I had been wondering how my casting compared to others and how far I should be able to cast my 6wt. I had been casting to 40ft reasonably well and could occasionally get 55ft. But my loops were huge and I knew my form was not perfect. Well I watched a bunch more youtube videos and yesterday morning everything clicked. I was never loading the rod in my back cast and my rod tip was not traveling in a straight line. I'm now consistently casting over 80ft in the yard without a haul. I watch the line on my backcast and this helps me know when to start my front cast to get the rod loaded. Before this I was using a lot of strength in my cast and really trying to get the rod moving very fast. This was completely wrong. It's all about timing, loading the rod, and having a good flick of the wrist towards the end of the cast to generate the line speed. I am using far less energy/effort to cast 80-90 ft than I was when casting 40-50ft before. 

So my dad could cast around 45ft pretty well and actually had a decent loop but still not very tight. I showed him what I was doing different and he is now casting 60-70ft rather easily with no haul. So I do think an experienced caster could benefit you and at least could figure out whether the problem is your casting technique or the rod/line combination.


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## PTLuv2Fish (Feb 10, 2021)

coconutgroves said:


> I'd bet a beer that throwing another line on that same rod won't solve your problem. It's the combination of things - changing one won't necessarily improve the other.
> 
> Your setup is doing what is intended to do. I've fished bass rods for years and they are not exactly the right rods for distance and accuracy. They are meant for quick, shorter cast with heavier lines (sinking heads) and to turn over big bass flies. 7'11" is the maximum length allowed for rods in bass tournaments, so that is the reason for that length. It has nothing to do with its design for making it a better casting rod.
> 
> ...


Cant find a Mangrove anywhere so I ordered an Echo Ion xl and the Wolf line, still need those lessons but I'll let you know what happens. One of the hardest things I have had to basically learn on my own is that the set up of line and rod can make or break you.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

PTLuv2Fish said:


> Cant find a Mangrove anywhere so I ordered an Echo Ion xl and the Wolf line, still need those lessons but I'll let you know what happens. One of the hardest things I have had to basically learn on my own is that the set up of line and rod can make or break you.


The first salt water rod I bought I couldn’t cast for shit. It was way too fast for my casting skills at the time. We all go through it, and casting is like a golf swing - it takes years to develop and fine tune.


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## PTLuv2Fish (Feb 10, 2021)

coconutgroves said:


> Once I get people to get the basic mechanics down, I have them focus solely on back casting - specifically, reversing the casting where the back cast is for placement to the fish. I've noticed a few guides on the Mill House podcast say this is very important to learn and completely agree.
> 
> What this does is a few things....
> 
> ...


Thank you for all this.


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## Fliesbynight (Mar 23, 2020)

Concentrating on the backcast has another very handy application.

I'm in the northeast and frequently fish in the surf or wading on the flats. This is usually a blind casting game. The wind on our beaches and bays often comes from the south which puts it right on my casting arm. If it's not too strong, I can handle it by laying the rod over a touch. Anything over 15 knots, however, and I turn around. Forecast at the beach and lay the fly out during the backcast. This has saved my fishing trips more often than I can count and prevents me from piercing my ear, or hitting the rod with a weighted fly as the wind pushes the line towards me.

Obviously, you lose accuracy since you aren't looking at your target but with blind casting, accuracy is not paramount. You should be able to shoot a haul just as far on the backcast as you do normally.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Mdees88 said:


> Good advice.
> 
> I just got my first fly rod last week. I have thrown every day in the yard for at least 30 minutes trying to learn to cast.
> 
> ...


This is a big surprise to many, but tight loops are overrated. They have their place, and come in handy in certain conditions, but once I teach the basic mechanics, I actually teach people to throw wider, open loops.

Shooting heads, high winds are reasons to throw tighter loops, but when casting to spooky fish, or in calm conditions, a larger, open loop lays down quieter and actually takes much less energy to cast. The fly still turns over nicely, and if done right, can hit 50' without a single false cast (one back cast, but not a false cast).

I really need to capture a video of this to show the mechanics, but it is unconventional from what many casting instructors and books teach.


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## PTLuv2Fish (Feb 10, 2021)

ECHO ION XL | Echo Fly Fishing







echoflyfishing.com




I just got the 9ft 7wt model of this and am waiting on the reel so I can put my new Royal Wolf Triangle Bermuda SW line on. I have been playing around with it using the Rio Gold line and there is night and day difference in this rod and the MoJo bass rod I was using. I can't wait to try the new line on it and get to fishing. I think I finally have the rod I should have started with in the beginning. Still need a lesson or two but am amazed at the difference in rods. The MoJo might be fine with a different line later after i get better at casting in general.


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

No reason not to be looking at your target when delivering a back cast. You aren't actually casting behind you (well, sometimes), just changing your relationship to the casting plane.


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## PTLuv2Fish (Feb 10, 2021)

tailwalk said:


> No reason not to be looking at your target when delivering a back cast. You aren't actually casting behind you (well, sometimes), just changing your relationship to the casting plane.


I do look at my backcast a lot and what I see is that I backcast better than I front cast, better loops and keep it up in air better.


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## PTLuv2Fish (Feb 10, 2021)

So to wrap things up on this thread I got a proper fly casting lesson last weekend and wow guess what? Now I can cast this set up no problem! Amazing how it is just all technique and it's not even really that complicated. But don't follow the instructions and it all falls apart asap. I am so glad I finally spent the time to get to a good instructor because now instead of it being frustrating it is so much fun to see that line shoot back and forth and roll out. I plan to use it floating small creeks and rivers where I don't want or need my 9ft rod.


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