# Hells Bay Marathon?



## whoislang

following... hopefully its more game changing then the Eldora that they just slapped a new name on the side of


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## LOUMan

whoislang said:


> following... hopefully its more game changing then the Eldora that they just slapped a new name on the side of


Its going to be a Biscayne but 17.8 with a Pad. From what I've heard its bad ass!


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## jsnipes

is mangum running a prototype now?

should be a great keys option and something to compete w chittum down there...


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## TheAdamsProject

jsnipes said:


> is mangum running a prototype now?


Yea he has had it for a little while now. Im sure there is a little more to it but in general yes a 17.8 Biscayne.


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## bryson

TheAdamsProject said:


> Yea he has had it for a little while now. Im sure there is a little more to it but in general yes a 17.8 Biscayne.


That sounds awfully close to becoming a Marquesa. I guess a little less beam, though?


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## Water Bound

I wonder if this is the new design CM referred to in his last post on the Beryllium thread,
"There will be a new design coming out next year that will be a deep vee 17.6 , 12 degrees built by a well known production company."


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## mmccull5

bryson said:


> That sounds awfully close to becoming a Marquesa. I guess a little less beam, though?


The biscayne is narrower and (slightly) lighter than the pro, believe it or not. It does draft more.


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## kylet

jsnipes said:


> is mangum running a prototype now?
> 
> should be a great keys option and something to compete w chittum down there...


Magnum and Brett Martina have been running prototype


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## Goose

Damn. I came in here hoping this was going to be more a flats boat, and not another poling skiff.


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## TheFrequentFlier

In my opinion, I think in order to stay competitive a 50-100% CF option will be necessary in the HB lineup, perhaps options on a few or all of their molds; I thought the "carbon innegra" was a weak effort (only saved about 40 lbs on a Pro). If this is just another slightly different hull design with the same materials, I'll be pretty underwhelmed.


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## DuckNut

Has HB designed a new skiff in the past 20 years that was NOT a regurgitated version of an existing hull?

Asking because I do not know.


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## TheFrequentFlier

DuckNut said:


> Has HB designed a new skiff in the past 20 years that was NOT a regurgitated version of an existing hull?
> 
> Asking because I do not know.


I know little about boat building, or more specifically, naval architecture, but wasn't the Estero just a magnified version of the Marquesa? I've heard smarter guys than me on the subject say you can't really just take a concept that works for one size and upscale it and expect the same results. 

Look, I love my pro just as much as the next guy, but i'd rather see them put efforts into layups and material advancement rather than adding another "model" that doesn't even add much versatility to their existing lineup. Seems like effort wasted for little return. 

BUT, Im still curious what they have up their sleeve. My gut tells me they know they need to do something to keep competitive with Chittum.


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## DuckNut

TheFrequentFlier said:


> I know little about boat building, or more specifically, naval architecture, but wasn't the Estero just a magnified version of the Marquesa? I've heard smarter guys than me on the subject say you can't really just take a concept that works for one size and upscale it and expect the same results.
> 
> Look, I love my pro just as much as the next guy, but i'd rather see them put efforts into layups and material advancement rather than adding another "model" that doesn't even add much versatility to their existing lineup. Seems like effort wasted for little return.
> 
> BUT, Im still curious what they have up their sleeve. My gut tells me they know they need to do something to keep competitive with Chittum.


Thanks for that and I am not going to disagree or even agree with you on the pissing match between the two you mention.

As far as I know the hulls are slightly re-engineered hulls that Morejohn designed decades ago. I really don't know and not remotely trying to start another dumpster fire about this. Just curious if anyone knows if someone actually drew up a completely new design for one of their hulls.

The tech advancements in cloth material could be deemed substantial, but at what cost. For example, carbon is superior in every way to glass. But building a completely carbon hull is useless as the boat will be so light it will be like standing on a beach ball - and that advancement is not a recipe for a winning combination.

Epoxy is better than ester's in many ways but is seldom used. You could make the boat out of it but you might price yourself out of business.

There is certainly a tradeoff and glass and ester still remain King and Cadillac.

I don't know about the Estero but the Eldora is a stripped down previous model.


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## gasman

Water Bound said:


> I wonder if this is the new design CM referred to in his last post on the Beryllium thread,
> "There will be a new design coming out next year that will be a deep vee 17.6 , 12 degrees built by a well known production company."


Golly, sounds a lot like an East Cape EVO...just sayin


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## TidalFly

Anybody have any pics by chance? Perhaps Martina or Mangum have posted some of the prototypes in action? Don’t have social media or I would look for myself instead of asking.


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## kamakuras

TheFrequentFlier said:


> I know little about boat building, or more specifically, naval architecture, but wasn't the Estero just a magnified version of the Marquesa? I've heard smarter guys than me on the subject say you can't really just take a concept that works for one size and upscale it and expect the same results.
> 
> Look, I love my pro just as much as the next guy, but i'd rather see them put efforts into layups and material advancement rather than adding another "model" that doesn't even add much versatility to their existing lineup. Seems like effort wasted for little return.
> 
> BUT, Im still curious what they have up their sleeve. My gut tells me they know they need to do something to keep competitive with Chittum.


The short answer is no not even close. From far away I can see where people would come up with that looking at the upper chines. That is where most of the similarities end. 
Qualifications: Have owned both.


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## jsnipes

If the new model is basically a bigger Biscayne I think it does fit a product niche. It seems most guides who predominantly fly fish or pole a lot (or weekend warriors who pole a lot) are over the "big" skiffs like Marquesa, HPX 18. And Chittum has obviously been eating everyone's lunch with a bigger platform that is still very poleable. And in HB current line up, the Pro is not really a big water boat and the Biscayne is just not as big a platform as a lot of folks want.


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## No Bait / Lures Only

LOUMan said:


> Its going to be a Biscayne but 17.8 with a Pad. From what I've heard its bad ass!


Bout time flats skiffs putting pad bottoms


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## Str8-Six

The skiff people have spoken. We want a skiff that can handle ocean side tarpon but still gets skinny and chase low tide reds. K-mart prices.. would be nice too.


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## kylet

TidalFly said:


> Anybody have any pics by chance? Perhaps Martina or Mangum have posted some of the prototypes in action? Don’t have social media or I would look for myself instead of asking.


They’ve had vid on their stories back during tarpon season. Want to say I’ve seen one that showed 56mph on gps - merc 115. Supposedly poles more like a pro than a marquesa. Not real sure. If you’re looking for a game changer best for any water, you’re probably gonna be let down. I’d imagine it going to be a pretty superior tarpon boat that poles better than a marquesa. If it’s 12 degree its going to be 10-12 inches more than likely.


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## kylet

TidalFly said:


> Anybody have any pics by chance? Perhaps Martina or Mangum have posted some of the prototypes in action? Don’t have social media or I would look for myself instead of asking.











this may be it


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## crboggs

Str8-Six said:


> The skiff people have spoken. We want a skiff that can handle ocean side tarpon but still gets skinny and chase low tide reds. K-mart prices.. would be nice too.


The HB Guide does both already.


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## mmccull5

kylet said:


> They’ve had vid on their stories back during tarpon season. Want to say I’ve seen one that showed 56mph on gps - merc 115. Supposedly poles more like a pro than a marquesa. Not real sure. If you’re looking for a game changer best for any water, you’re probably gonna be let down. I’d imagine it going to be a pretty superior tarpon boat that poles better than a marquesa. If it’s 12 degree its going to be 10-12 inches more than likely.


You think it will draft more than a marquesa? I'll be interested to see how it floats with a half tank or less.


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## JC Designs

Somebody hold my beer for about 6 more months!😉


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## blueeye

The Guide on a trailer with a swing tongue is less than 20ft which fits in most garages. So a Guide or bigger Biscayne with some deadrise would be cool. The boat above doesn't look like it has very big sponsons if their there.


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## Water Bound

He referenced this one as being "something new"....


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## TheFrequentFlier

hahaha y’all stalking David with big telephoto lenses or what? ;-)


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## Water Bound

Ha, nah, no stalking required... he provides plenty of himself on IG 



TheFrequentFlier said:


> hahaha y’all stalking David with big telephoto lenses or what? ;-)


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## kylet

mmccull5 said:


> You think it will draft more than a marquesa? I'll be interested to see how it floats with a half tank or less.


I haven’t seen one but, no. I’d guess based on what I’ve heard and seen it probably up to an inch better with a similar load.


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## Backcountry 16

Looks like another overpriced skiff to me.


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## Tomas

*Seems to be a reactive move on HB part, trying to keep up with the new Evo and maybe Chittum. Interested to see what they come up with, I’m sure the price will be astronomical. Wonder if Mangum will own the intellectual properties of the skiff too ha ha *


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## Charles Hadley

If HB puts out a 17.8 12 degree that floats more than 8 inches and chittum already builds a 12 degree 18 that drafts 5 assuming they are priced closely it would be a no brainers to buy the chittum right? Do you really think HB would put out skiff to compete with chittum that drafted 10 plus?That just doesn't make dollars or sense.


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## Str8-Six

Charles Hadley said:


> If HB puts out a 17.8 12 degree that floats more than 8 inches and chittum already builds a 12 degree 18 that drafts 5 assuming they are priced closely it would be a no brainers to buy the chittum right? Do you really think HB would put out skiff to compete with chittum that drafted 10 plus?That just doesn't make dollars or sense.


Based on the calculation below a Chittum 12 degree would need around 6” just to have the stern chine under water. Probably more around a 7” skiff but then again I’m just using math and never been on one.

Tangent of 12 degrees multiplied by 28 (assuming waterline beam is actually 56”) is 5.95”. This doesn’t account for the small pad or the chine.


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## Charles Hadley

Have had discussions with some people who own 12 chittums inquiring about draft.and they have stated true 6 inch draft.hope new HB does draft shallow competition is good for all of us


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## Charles Hadley

Moving into larger skiff the coming year hopefully they will release it soon ,12 degree chittum mangrove is on the list and would be interesting to see what Hb will offer


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## gasman

Tomas said:


> *Seems to be a reactive move on HB part, trying to keep up with the new Evo and maybe Chittum. Interested to see what they come up with, I’m sure the price will be astronomical. *


Exactly. Granted Im a bit biased, but I'd go EVO all day


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## TidalFly

If Chittum 12 degree actually truly drafts 6” or less that is incredible...I’m not saying it doesn’t, I just know people (everyone) tends to exaggerate draft numbers. If that’s true that’s unbelievable.


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## Str8-Six

Most men tend to get their inches off. I’d love to hear a women’s opinion on draft.

Chittum site says the mangrove 12 degree drafts 7” with engine and fuel. Not sure if they’re referencing the standard layup but this seems more logical as a 6” 12 degree skiff would basically be floating at the chine.


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## Charles Hadley

TidalFly said:


> If Chittum 12 degree actually truly drafts 6” or less that is incredible...I’m not saying it doesn’t, I just know people (everyone) tends to exaggerate draft numbers. If that’s true that’s unbelievable.


I agree and plan on seeing for my self at chittum expo in January


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## kylet

Charles Hadley said:


> If HB puts out a 17.8 12 degree that floats more than 8 inches and chittum already builds a 12 degree 18 that drafts 5 assuming they are priced closely it would be a no brainers to buy the chittum right? Do you really think HB would put out skiff to compete with chittum that drafted 10 plus?That just doesn't make dollars or sense.


It’s not going to be a sub 10 inch boat. It takes a 115. A professional is going to be closer to 7-8 with a 70.

I think it’s going to be a fast (up to 60mph), big water boat that poles better than a marquesa.

Based on everything I’ve seen I’d guess this boat is going to be competion to 17 HPX-with a 115 or a biscayne rather than a chittum or evo. Of course it’s longer than both of those though.


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## Snookdaddy

crboggs said:


> The HB Guide does both already.


The Guide is a flat bottom boat that is heavier to pole and wider than a 17.8 or Waterman. Wetter ride too.


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## Snookdaddy

I have a Wateman and my buddy has a 17.8 Whip Pro. I've been telling him for years the HB needs to add some "V", but keep the narrower beam of the Professional. 

Glad to see it come to fruition. They will sell. A Guide, Professional and Waterman will float skinny, but will hand your ass to you crossing Boca Grande pass when the wind picks up at the end of a Summer day. Ask me how I know.


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## crboggs

Snookdaddy said:


> The Guide is a flat bottom boat that is heavier to pole and wider than a 17.8 or Waterman. Wetter ride too.


Perhaps...but it will do both beach tarpon and skinny reds...I have a couple hundred hours on one doing both (a good portion of that on the poling platform).

That extra beam comes in handy for summer tarpon and the flat bottom serves for winter reds. And every skiff in this size range is "wet".

So my answer to the question I was focused on is till correct.


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## Snookdaddy

crboggs said:


> Perhaps...but it will do both beach tarpon and skinny reds...I have a couple hundred hours on one doing both (a good portion of that on the poling platform).
> 
> That extra beam comes in handy for summer tarpon and the flat bottom serves for winter reds. And every skiff in this size range is "wet".
> 
> So my answer to the question I was focused on is till correct.


Yep, not much better for skinny AND oceanside than the Guide, Pro or the Wateman, but some deadrise helps immensely for pure oceanside / harbor running in the rough stuff.


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## Snookdaddy

Hopefully, HB added about 2" more freeboard on this skiff the keep nasty waves from coming over the bow while anchored up on the beach.


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## CKEAT

crboggs said:


> Perhaps...but it will do both beach tarpon and skinny reds...I have a couple hundred hours on one doing both (a good portion of that on the poling platform).
> 
> That extra beam comes in handy for summer tarpon and the flat bottom serves for winter reds. And every skiff in this size range is "wet".
> 
> So my answer to the question I was focused on is till correct.


I will likely get some crap for this but this isn’t true. 

I got out of my pro and on a laguna madre on a windy (normal) Texas coastal day (20-22mph sustained) and in the Chittum I never got wet and we crossed waves on rough bay system every witch way with every level of tabs deployed / not deployed and didn’t get beat up either. 

I had just run the pro to this spot and was little wet and I was doing all I could with tabs and proper wave entry. This experience is what sold me on going to Chittum. With all that said, loved the pro and some of the Chittum hype is out of control but it is honestly a dry boat, super skinny to pole and will pole in the wind no problem and yes it’s expensive.


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## 4991

Snookdaddy said:


> I have a Wateman and my buddy has a 17.8 Whip Pro. I've been telling him for years the HB needs to add some "V", but keep the narrower beam of the Professional.
> 
> Glad to see it come to fruition. They will sell. A Guide, Professional and Waterman will float skinny, but will hand your ass to you crossing Boca Grande pass when the wind picks up at the end of a Summer day. Ask me how I know.


Sounds like y’all need to check out the Floyd Skiff. Plenty of freeboard, has some V (deadrise) and gets plenty skinny 7”. And 75” beam. So much drier than a Pro or a Guide.


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## Copahee Hound

Dang I love an HB thread... insert @JC Designs popcorn gif right here


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## TheFrequentFlier

Snookdaddy said:


> Hopefully, HB added about 2" more fretboard on this skiff the keep nasty waves from coming over the bow while anchored up on the beach.


This is a good point. I have a HB Pro, and it's always a bummer when I head out the inlet hoping to find tarpon off the beach -- about half the time solo -- and have to turn around due to conditions. Usually my line in the sand is the second wave that I take over the bow before I've even gotten to a position to anchor or stake out. 

So here's a question::

-- What is everyone's personal limit for this? How many breakers over the bow does it take for your to call it a day? Or what do you use to judge whether it's better just to quit while ahead and find something inshore to play around with for the morning. 

I definitely don't want to be a skiff test pilot, but wondering what it takes to roll one of these if you screw up and get broadside. Am assuming that would be worst case. 

Anyone have any good techniques they use to "stay safe" while out in sketchy conditions off the beaches?


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## JC Designs

The waves over the bow is another fine example of the 80/20 rule. Technical poling skiffs are just that. Designed for the back country, mostly sheltered waters, and fair weather. Conventional flats boats are designed more for beach side open water flats and can take a larger swell. Bay boats, are designed for rougher water and have much more free board than flats boats and on a fair weather day can run offshore with no issues provided the weather stays fair. 80/20, decide what you want to do most and purchase the boat that best suits you. If beach side is it, get a flats or bay boat. On the bright side, folks like Louis at South Dade skiffs are building affordable poling skiffs for the other 20%! Great excuse to buy two boats!!!


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## crboggs

JC Designs said:


> The waves over the bow is another fine example of the 80/20 rule.


This. 

The debate here is around the best compromise between two very distinctive use cases that differ greatly.

7" (alluded to earlier) is not sufficiently skinny for winter redfish around here. But taking waves over the bow during tarpon season sucks as well.

And that's before you even have the conversation about how wet you get in transit.

For me it was the 99/1 rule...99% skinny redfish...so you know what days and tides I venture out into.


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## scissorhands

I love my HB and I love chittums. I have been anchored oceanside in a Chittum chasing tarpon and we continually took waves over the bow. So it does happen, doesn't matter the boat.


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## CKEAT

JC Designs said:


> The waves over the bow is another fine example of the 80/20 rule. Technical poling skiffs are just that. Designed for the back country, mostly sheltered waters, and fair weather. Conventional flats boats are designed more for beach side open water flats and can take a larger swell. Bay boats, are designed for rougher water and have much more free board than flats boats and on a fair weather day can run offshore with no issues provided the weather stays fair. 80/20, decide what you want to do most and purchase the boat that best suits you. If beach side is it, get a flats or bay boat. On the bright side, folks like Louis at South Dade skiffs are building affordable poling skiffs for the other 20%! Great excuse to buy two boats!!!
> 
> 
> Totally agree, go bay for beach tarpon and have more capability on good / decent weather days and get a 16’ tiller bare bones lightweight tech skiff for the skinny work.


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## CKEAT

That didn’t post properly.

Totally agree, go bay for beach tarpon and have more capability on good / decent weather days and get a 16’ tiller bare bones lightweight tech skiff for the skinny work.


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## DBStoots

I would never take my skiff out in conditions where there was a high likelihood of having waves come over the bow--not worth the risk for me.


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## Matts

I have a Chittum 2 degree that drafted about 5-6” yesterday with 600 pounds of people and a full Yeti 45 yesterday. HB needs entirely new technology to even get close to Chittum. I’ve been on HB Pro, Waterman, etc and they just aren’t even a close comparison for draft or hole shot. Love the HB look and value but at this point, they’re 10 yrs behind.


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## scissorhands

Matts said:


> I have a Chittum 2 degree that drafted about 5-6” yesterday with 600 pounds of people and a full Yeti 45 yesterday. HB needs entirely new technology to even get close to Chittum. I’ve been on HB Pro, Waterman, etc and they just aren’t even a close comparison for draft or hole shot. Love the HB look and value but at this point, they’re 10 yrs behind.


C'mon man. 10 years behind? Thats your opinion, I just don't agree with it. Holeshot has everything to do with prop and engine height, a shitty prop isn't going to do any good on either boat.


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## JC Designs

scissorhands said:


> C'mon man. 10 years behind? Thats your opinion, I just don't agree with it. Holeshot has everything to do with prop and engine height, a shitty prop isn't going to do any good on either boat.


While I’ll agree that his opinion is his opinion, I’ll have to disagree about the hole shot statement. While the prop and engine height play an integral role in hole shot, so does hull design, weight, balance.


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## scissorhands

JC Designs said:


> While I’ll agree that his opinion is his opinion, I’ll have to disagree about the hole shot statement. While the prop and engine height play an integral role in hole shot, so does hull design, weight, balance.


well of course they all play apart, I agree with that. In all the modern skiffs out there now HB, Chittum, BT, Mavericks the prop is going to make the difference in hole shot.


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## TidalFly

Just curious, what part is 10 years ahead? Full carbon layup versus carbon innegra? Chittum is definitely doing some things others aren’t, but to say using different materials that both are obviously aware of is 10 years ahead, seems like a stretch. Hull design may be superior in some cases, but design is simply addressing the same things skiff designers have all strived to address in the modern skiff era. Maybe they’re doing it better than others, but it’s not like they’ve identified and fixed something that others are “sleeping on”.


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## CKEAT

I think hells bay has hung their hat on the name a little bit but it is not as bad as it seems. I do think they should open up innovation and get after it a bit more. 

They have a hell of a brand and it would serve them well, it isn’t quantum mechanics.


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## TidalFly

Also to your point “ I’ve been on HB Pro, Waterman, etc and they just aren’t even a close comparison for draft”...my waterman is a 6” draft all day long, which is the same draft you said your Chittum 2 degree is. Perhaps the same inches don’t apply in a Chittum/HB comparison?


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## Matt Pribyl

Goose said:


> Damn. I came in here hoping this was going to be more a flats boat, and not another poling skiff.


Difference being?


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## Matts

CKEAT said:


> I will likely get some crap for this but this isn’t true.
> 
> I got out of my pro and on a laguna madre on a windy (normal) Texas coastal day (20-22mph sustained) and in the Chittum I never got wet and we crossed waves on rough bay system every witch way with every level of tabs deployed / not deployed and didn’t get beat up either.
> 
> I had just run the pro to this spot and was little wet and I was doing all I could with tabs and proper wave entry. This experience is what sold me on going to Chittum. With all that said, loved the pro and some of the Chittum hype is out of control but it is honestly a dry boat, super skinny to pole and will pole in the wind no problem and yes it’s expensive.


Draft and hole shot.......it's all about that with the Chittum! I honestly thought my LM2 would ride rougher but it is surprisingly smooth up on top of the chop. Getting on plane is weird.....it floats so high in the water column that you just barely start by gradually giving it gas (don't hammer down) and it's almostly instantly on plane. I've been on BT, HB, etc and this is unique to the Chittum LMs. I've also been on the original LM 1/2 carbon and it was close to the same experience. I had about 600# of humans on mine two days ago and hole shot remained impressive, with proper weight distribution. Have to use your head, like with any skiff.


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah

Competition in the skiff business is fierce right now. It's important for publicity that Hell's Bay wins the Skiff Challenge. The Biscayne has been their best choice to run in the event so far. If this new Marathon is based on the Biscayne design, can handle big water crossings, and is still 18 feet or under - it was made for The Challenge.


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## sotilloa1078

SkiffaDeeDooDah said:


> Competition in the skiff business is fierce right now. It's important for publicity that Hell's Bay wins the Skiff Challenge. The Biscayne has been their best choice to run in the event so far. If this new Marathon is based on the Biscayne design, can handle big water crossings, and is still 18 feet or under - it was made for The Challenge.


It wasn’t built for a 70 I don’t think. The Biscayne will run with a 70 but is a much better running boat with a 90. The marathon will be an interesting add to their line up. Will prob be a 10” boat if I had to guess. They just stretched the Biscayne long ways and some adjustments to the bottom because of the stretch. I’m sure it will be a great riding and dry boat much like the Biscayne. But will also have some of the funky running characteristics as well.


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah

Enter the new challenger...

The Floyd Skiff Co. 10wt

18'-0"
Built Floyd tough
Quick and well balanced with a Suzuki 90 standard (runs great with a Yamaha F70 too)
Drives and corners with grip like a sports car
Able to cross big water, ride great and keep you dry, with more freeboard, flaired spray chines, and a sharp forward v-entry
Poles easily and silently
All that, with a 7" draft


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## JC Designs

SkiffaDeeDooDah said:


> Enter the new challenger...
> 
> The Floyd Skiff Co. 10wt
> 
> 18'-0"
> Built Floyd tough
> Quick and well balanced with a Suzuki 90 standard (runs great with a Yamaha F70 too)
> Drives and corners with grip like a sports car
> Able to cross big water, ride great and keep you dry, with more freeboard, flaired spray chines, and a sharp forward v-entry
> Poles easily and silently
> All that, with a 7" draft
> 
> View attachment 162759
> 
> 
> View attachment 162760
> 
> 
> View attachment 162761


She does, but you gotta be a little biased!😉 Seriously, would be on my short list!


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah

Haha! Gotta admit, I am a little biased!


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## jmrodandgun

We need a video of the Floyd skiff being polled in a circle before a determination can be made.


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## texasag07

Trying to compare a v bottom skiff to a Non v bottom skiff is like comparing milk to orange juice they are different flavors regardless of their similarities.


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah

jmrodandgun said:


> We need a video of the Floyd skiff being polled in a circle before a determination can be made.


Good idea! I will put that on my ToDo list, and post it when finished.


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## JC Designs

jmrodandgun said:


> We need a video of the Floyd skiff being polled in a circle before a determination can be made.





SkiffaDeeDooDah said:


> Good idea! I will put that on my ToDo list, and post it when finished.


I believe Brian has one already!🤙🏻


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah

texasag07 said:


> Trying to compare a v bottom skiff to a Non v bottom skiff is like comparing milk to orange juice they are different flavors regardless of their similarities.


In terms of draft - yes. But, I think you can still compare the overall characteristics between two skiffs without total disqualification because one has a v-bottom or a non v-bottom. I had a Hewes Redfisher that was heavier and wider, with a 13 degree deadrise v-bottom and 13" draft, that did not ride as soft and dry as the Floyd Skiff Co. 10wt does, with a non v-bottom at the stern and a 7" draft. Beam, pad, strakes, reverse chines, pocket, etc. are all part of the equation - not just v-bottom or non v-bottom.


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## devrep

merry Christmas all.


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## kylet

texasag07 said:


> Trying to compare a v bottom skiff to a Non v bottom skiff is like comparing milk to orange juice they are different flavors regardless of their similarities.


Well orange juice is very sweet but has a sour acidity, while the milk is more of a soothing taste. They both pour well out of a standard gallon jug and take up similar fridge space with similar weight. They both will do the job.


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## therealdrew

TidalFly said:


> Also to your point “ I’ve been on HB Pro, Waterman, etc and they just aren’t even a close comparison for draft”...my waterman is a 6” draft all day long, which is the same draft you said your Chittum 2 degree is. Perhaps the same inches don’t apply in a Chittum/HB comparison?


The Mangrove 12 degree drafts the same (marginally shallower) than my Waterman 16 tunnel with the same power. With what I want it’s within 10% of the price of a new Pro, and I get better performance in big water.


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah

therealdrew said:


> The Mangrove 12 degree drafts the same (marginally shallower) than my Waterman 16 tunnel with the same power. With what I want it’s within 10% of the price of a new Pro, and I get better performance in big water.


Which motor did you go with on the Mangrove?

Thanks.


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## therealdrew

SkiffaDeeDooDah said:


> Which motor did you go with on the Mangrove?
> 
> Thanks.


It was a Tohatsu, can’t remember if it was a 50 or 60 though.
Just for clarity, I don’t own a Mangrove, I just got to ride on one. It’s on the bucket list though.


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## TheFrequentFlier

How much CF in the mangrove layup you tested? 50? 100? 

not trying to start an argument, but when you say. 12 deg skiff drafts less than a (waterman, 2 degree or so?) the laws of physics are against that argument. Not impossible, but at least questionable.


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## therealdrew

TheFrequentFlier said:


> How much CF in the mangrove layup you tested? 50? 100?
> 
> not trying to start an argument, but when you say. 12 deg skiff drafts less than a (waterman, 2 degree or so?) the laws of physics are against that argument. Not impossible, but at least questionable.


It was the standard 10% carbon layup.
The biggest variable is that my Waterman tunnel squats A LOT. The Mangrove had no squat at all. 
Obviously if I put a smaller motor on the waterman it might be a different conversation.


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## TheFrequentFlier

therealdrew said:


> It was the standard 10% carbon layup.
> The biggest variable is that my Waterman tunnel squats A LOT. The Mangrove had no squat at all.
> Obviously if I put a smaller motor on the waterman it might be a different conversation.


that makes sense. Tunnel and the shorter length working against the draft, so on second thought, makes sense that they’re close. Good info and data points - thanks for sharing!

I’m torn between the 12 and 2 Chittum. Fishing a HB Pro now, but think the dealbreaker maybe the fact that I’d rather it EXCEL at OTB tarpon than winter reds, etc. (gulf coast). Would love perspectives on guys that fish off the beach for tarpon with the 2 deg Chittum. TBHI’m never really concerned about running too far through chop, more concerned on how the skiff handles in whatever the gulf coast is throwing at me that day.
Cheers!


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## ElLobo

News - Hell's Bay Boatworks


News




hellsbay.markhamandstein.com


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## TheFrequentFlier

ElLobo said:


> News - Hell's Bay Boatworks
> 
> 
> News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hellsbay.markhamandstein.com


wow. Cool little sneak peak. But Wish it was weighing in a bit lighter and could be a competitor to the Chittum layups.


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## devrep

drafts as much as my SilverKing.


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## Water Bound

Who is Mark? Interesting that the skiff isn’t listed on HB’s own site


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## TheFrequentFlier

Water Bound said:


> Who is Mark? Interesting that the skiff isn’t listed on HB’s own site


it appears to be an advertising firm. Looks like HB hasn’t gone live with it yet.


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## topnative2

It's funny the original Keys tarpon flats boat in the keys was a Willy Roberts. They needed something to float shallow and take some rough stuff. The boat is still being made today and it is made w/ the good stuff but still remains true to it's roots.I remember them ,back in the day, lined up at Budd and Marys waiting to go out. A classic design that is still viable and classy. One is not taking any chances running the beaches or inlets. I love mine and my wife stays dry which is more important. The price is reasonable compared to what is being thrown around is this discussion.
Live simply.


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## Omar_Guillen

TheFrequentFlier said:


> that makes sense. Tunnel and the shorter length working against the draft, so on second thought, makes sense that they’re close. Good info and data points - thanks for sharing!
> 
> I’m torn between the 12 and 2 Chittum. Fishing a HB Pro now, but think the dealbreaker maybe the fact that I’d rather it EXCEL at OTB tarpon than winter reds, etc. (gulf coast). Would love perspectives on guys that fish off the beach for tarpon with the 2 deg Chittum. TBHI’m never really concerned about running too far through chop, more concerned on how the skiff handles in whatever the gulf coast is throwing at me that day.
> Cheers!


I have owed a hells bay pro since 2013 and just got a chittum 2 degree. I can give you some honest feedback in a couple of weeks.


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## TheFrequentFlier

I'm not sure whether to be really stoked or let down. I want to really love this new skiff, but I dunno. Regadless, I'd love to see how it performs.


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## ElLobo

TheFrequentFlier said:


> I'm not sure whether to be really stoked or let down. I want to really love this new skiff, but I dunno. Regadless, I'd love to see how it performs.


Agreed, seems like they took the professional and just added a bigger HP rating. Was hoping for something really innovative.


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## TheFrequentFlier

ElLobo said:


> Agreed, seems like they took the professional and just added a bigger HP rating. Was hoping for something really innovative.


Yeah agree, definitely looks like the Pro from above the water line, minus the sponsons. I think it's a "SAFE" bet for a new hull, just don't know if safe was necessarily the right direction for the company to go...they've got plenty of other choices in their lineup across a big spectrum, all of which are "safe" tried and true and timeless classics..


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## CKEAT

They don't care to innovate, I really liked the pro I had but they have know the pitfalls for years and have no desire to update and progress technology and design. Sucks, they have the best brand out there.


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## HPXFLY

Honestly looks like a narrower marquesa by just a few inches, advertised weights nearly the same too. Wonder if they made the cooler on this one bigger and insulated so it holds ice for more than 12 hours.


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## TheFrequentFlier

Really curious how this is going to pole, especially with a 90-115 hanging from the back. 

maybe they designed this boat solely for the Skiff Challenge ;-) (only partially joking)


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## jsnipes

it's not that innovative but i do feel like it fills an obvious hole in their lineup.

before, hb really didn't have anything to compete with an hpx-17 which is sort of the default florida skiff. a lot of people don't want a 16ft boat (biscayne) and marquesa is significantly bigger and more of a comp to hpx-18. pro is more comparable to an hpx-s and not a bigger water boat.

we will see how the execution is but in theory it's something which is more comparable to hpx-17 and chittum 12 degree which is where a lot of the market currently is.


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## bryson

It's the only boat other than the Marquesa in their (skiff) lineup that isn't 16' from transom to stem, right? The Pro, Guide, Whip, Eldora, Biscayne... some have sponsons but the motor is near the same location.

Not sure if that means much of anything, just an observation. Without examining the boat too hard, it makes me think more along the lines of a Pro with filled-in sponsons and a little deadrise. Basically the "Guide >> Marquesa" would be analogous to the "Professional >> Marathon".


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah

That mock website covers up the pictures, so it's hard to see the whole skiff. More pictures of the hull running surface and transom would be good too. Aft rod tubes? I'd have to take a ride in sloppy conditions to see how dry it is - not much of the deck overhanging the spray chines. Like said above, it does fill the slot in size between the Marquesa and Biscayne.


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## whoislang

bryson said:


> It's the only boat other than the Marquesa in their (skiff) lineup that isn't 16' from transom to stem, right? The Pro, Guide, Whip, Eldora, Biscayne... some have sponsons but the motor is near the same location.
> 
> Not sure if that means much of anything, just an observation. Without examining the boat too hard, it makes me think more along the lines of a Pro with filled-in sponsons and a little deadrise. Basically the "Guide >> Marquesa" would be analogous to the "Professional >> Marathon".


You hit it on the head. Pro with filled in sponsons. Weighs close to the same and same beam/ LOA. You would think that adding that extra displacement would actually decrease the draft. Maybe with a 70hp you could float in less than the pro. Of course that's all offset a little by moving the engine more rearward, but this is the same thing that Drake did with their Nomad 2.0 and they claim moving the motor back didn't counteract what adding more displacement did for draft. They don't advertise the deadrises so cant really speak to that.


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## ElLobo

SkiffaDeeDooDah said:


> That mock website covers up the pictures, so it's hard to see the whole skiff. More pictures of the hull running surface and transom would be good too. Aft rod tubes? I'd have to take a ride in sloppy conditions to see how dry it is - not much of the deck overhanging the spray chines. Like said above, it does fill the slot in size between the Marquesa and Biscayne.


Pulled these from that site, can see the transom and hull a little better. Looks like its a deeper hull than the Pro now that I can see it a little better.


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## Nexoboat

Ok so I test rode this today AMAZING!!!! I would say true 8-9inch draft with 115 & Jackplate. A seriously good riding boat & I have been in a bunch. Want to see how it does with a 90 or 70.


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## Caleb.Esparza

Having seen hull #1 in person on multiple occasions ( the one in the photos, a very well known tarpon guide has been piloting it since at least July) I can tell you it’s nothing like a pro. Think a biscayne, but longer.


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## B_Katz

In the second pic, the driver looks awfully far from that back rest being usable... Thoughts?


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## TX_Salt

That's not a seat rest if you magnify it's only a step up for the poling platform like the Chittum it appears.


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## redchaser

billkatzenberger said:


> In the second pic, the driver looks awfully far from that back rest being usable... Thoughts?


He needs longer arms.


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## B_Katz




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## Paul Mills

As above. There are now about 4 videos of this on Vimeo.


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## Longjohnsenskiff

Goose said:


> Damn. I came in here hoping this was going to be more a flats boat, and not another poling skiff.


Wrong forum then, and I really hate when people say stuff like this, but it’s literally microskiff.com, saying in the nicest way haha .


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## kylet

jsnipes said:


> it's not that innovative but i do feel like it fills an obvious hole in their lineup.
> 
> before, hb really didn't have anything to compete with an hpx-17 which is sort of the default florida skiff. a lot of people don't want a 16ft boat (biscayne) and marquesa is significantly bigger and more of a comp to hpx-18. pro is more comparable to an hpx-s and not a bigger water boat.
> 
> we will see how the execution is but in theory it's something which is more comparable to hpx-17 and chittum 12 degree which is where a lot of the market currently is.


The biscayne and HPX 17V is pretty close no?
16’4” x70” and 16’9” x 75” respectively
Isn’t the Marathon 17’8”?


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## Paul Mills

CM has measured the HPX-17 (and a number of other skiffs). The HPX-17 is closer to the Chittum. Read that here someplace. At the waterline (offsets) where it counts.


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## kylet

Paul Mills said:


> CM has measured the HPX-17 (and a number of other skiffs). The HPX-17 is closer to the Chittum. Read that here someplace. At the waterline (offsets) where it counts.


Well how many fat chicks were in the boat when he measured at the waterline? If there weren’t any then those numbers would be pretty irrelevant, no? Otherwise we may as well be going by arbitrary numbers like the manufacturer specifications.


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## Goose

Longjohnsenskiff said:


> Wrong forum then, and I really hate when people say stuff like this, but it’s literally microskiff.com, saying in the nicest way haha .


Well as long as you’re saying my opinion/wish is shit in the nicest way possible...I’m on this site because it’s the closest thing to what I’m interested in. On thehulltruth everyone has hard-on’s for massive center consoles.

It doesn’t matter though, I’ve sold my VHP and placed an order for a new EVO V.


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