# Permit



## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Probably not what you want to hear, but is easier and saves time.

16 lb tapered 10' or 12' leader. If you need to extend, double uni with 15/16 low diameter. Umpqua makes great low diameter fluoro tippet. Longest leader I've fished on permit is about 15'. 12' to 13' is typical.

I don't like knots on my permit leaders. It's something else that can rub against coral and get snagged. I don't like blood knots either. They are 2 clinches. Double uni is a better option. I use a perfection loop on my fly. Smaller knot and easy as hell once you learn to tie it with a fly on.

There is just too many failure points on what you mentioned. Maybe it's me, but the only leader I make myself are tarpon leaders. Sure, I'll extend tippet on reds, bones, etc, but I save the butt end for bass fishing, so I get long use out of premade tapered leaders. Knots attach grass, weeds, gunk, algae, etc. I go as knotless as possible. Less failure. Less hassle.


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

Anything a guy holding a permit has to say on the subject is exactly what I want to hear ☺ 
I agree the perfection loop to fly is super easy just always thought of it as a weaker option than the double figure 8. Not as concerned at the butt end with the bigger material there but at the fly it did/does concern me in 16lb. Can't argue with results though. I'm better at blood knots than uni-uni knots and consider the two equal so that keeps the blood around for me. I do like the thought of no knots though. Who makes a good knotless leader with a big enough butt section? I've never used one and heard they can be a little small on the butt end. 

Thanks!


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## TheAdamsProject (Oct 29, 2007)

The only leaders I tie are for reds as that is what I chase 99% of the time. When I travel to chase permit, bones or tarpon I buy the proper knotless leaders and add my 100% fluro tippet and be done. In all reality you use very few leaders and I think last trip to mexico I used 2 bonefish leaders over 3 days and caught a ton of fish. I caught a permit 2 of the 3 days and used 1 leader. That does not justify me tying my own even though I am good and confident in my knots. Support your local fly shop or grab them discounted at places like sierratradingpost.com

My redfish leaders are 40-30-20-15 in either ande or big game with bloods. Then I go to Fluro tippet with an alberto or variation of albright depening on diameter. I have been using perfections at both butt end and fly with no problems. I will always stay with perfection on the butt section but been trying others on the fly end. All seem to work.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

tailwalk said:


> Anything a guy holding a permit has to say on the subject is exactly what I want to hear ☺
> I agree the perfection loop to fly is super easy just always thought of it as a weaker option than the double figure 8. Not as concerned at the butt end with the bigger material there but at the fly it did/does concern me in 16lb. Can't argue with results though. I'm better at blood knots than uni-uni knots and consider the two equal so that keeps the blood around for me. I do like the thought of no knots though. Who makes a good knotless leader with a big enough butt section? I've never used one and heard they can be a little small on the butt end.
> 
> Thanks!


Practice the double uni and compare it to the blood. I bet money you'll change over when you view how the uni's both seat down and pull against one another. The blood clinches against one another - it is a weave of the line using tension to hold together. The double uni actually pulls against one another, meaning it doesn't rely upon tension and won't slip like the blood "clinch." A clinch is not a knot.

Nothing is wrong with the double figure 8, but again, it's more than what is needed. If you use a 100% knot, like the perfection, and it is half the size, why not use it? Permit do not eat 99% of the time. It's a fish of a 1,000 casts. Bulky knots just add another variable that could make them ignore the fly. Once I learned the perfection with a fly, I use it on tarpon now too. It holds.

One of the best permit guides I know told me this...

"Take the Ifs, the Ands and the Buts out of everything, only after that can you say it's a permit being a permit"

Get everything right, have no excuses and eliminate any potential factors that could cause a problem. Wedding ring? Off. Watch? Off. Too much dip in the line while stripping? Lower the tip to the water. Want that second beer? Later. That's the way I fish and teach anyone on my boat.

As for leaders, there are really only a handful of larger companies that make them. So really, just get a good set of fluoro and nylon. Umpqua and Rio both make good options in both. I troll eBay or wait for sales at on-line shops and then load up.


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## jsnipes (May 1, 2011)

I typically do 30, 20, 15 (or 12 if it's super calm out).

I usually do 6-7ft of 30, 3-4ft of 20, and 3ft of 15 end up with 12-13ft

I do blood knots if I have time, usually do double uni if on the water. it's definitely a good knot. only annoying thing is the tag ends i find catch more weed than on a blood knot.


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## sidelock (Jan 31, 2011)

I respectfully disagree with the perfection being 100%.


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## Flats Broke (Feb 7, 2017)

sidelock said:


> I respectfully disagree with the perfection being 100%.


I would agree with Sidelock that the perfection is not a 100% percent line strength terminal knot. Knots have varying break strengths depending on how they are used, i.e., as line to line knots or as terminal knots and also what type of line is being used . The knots that have been proven in multiple scientific tests to have the highest break strength as terminal knots with mono and fluro are the AG Chain knot (100%), the improved clinch (100%) and the Uni knot 99.26%. It is even more important to wet fluro before tying as it is especially prone to chafing during cinching.


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## matauman (Nov 4, 2014)

Buying tapered leaders probably make the most sense, as others have said, you don't use that many. This is where I started, then i ordered an assortment (bone, permit, tarpon) from George Anderson's shop and liked the way they turned over, they were all hand tied. Doing research on a trip to south Andros I came across Bruce Chards leaders formula and liked being able to make them myself. I still pick up a few tapered from my local shop on the way out but prefer the homemade ones for sure. 




 I especially like the way they turnover and having tied them up i can modify them on the boat quickly as the knots gets easier to tie after you tie a bunch....i just with i could remember the names of the damn knots!
You can play with the formula based on the conditions, ie wind, spook factor, depth and the floro last a long time.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Well the perfection loop has worked 100% of the time for me on permit and big poon. Results don't lie. I searched and saw some people saying 40% - now way. It has to be upper 90s. I'll stand down on the 100% comment, but it is damn near it. One thing it is not is bulky.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

^ That ^


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

coconutgroves said:


> Practice the double uni and compare it to the blood. I bet money you'll change over


How much?

The uni-uni is a fine knot. I learned that one before learning the blood knot. I prefer the blood for a few reasons, not the least of which is the slimmer profile.



coconutgroves said:


> Nothing is wrong with the double figure 8, but again, it's more than what is needed. If you use a 100% knot, like the perfection, and it is half the size, why not use it? Permit do not eat 99% of the time. It's a fish of a 1,000 casts. Bulky knots just add another variable that could make them ignore the fly. Once I learned the perfection with a fly, I use it on tarpon now too. It holds.


I've used the perfection loop to fly on several fish, the tarpon in my avatar if I remember right, at least a few others that size. I like it but my experiences are with tippet greater than 16 so... good to hear it's worked for you. 



coconutgroves said:


> One of the best permit guides I know told me this...
> 
> "Take the Ifs, the Ands and the Buts out of everything, only after that can you say it's a permit being a permit"
> 
> Get everything right, have no excuses and eliminate any potential factors that could cause a problem..


Love this. Exactly why I started a thread on a fish I've never casted to. Thanks for joining in.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

The only line strength you worry about (line or knots) is the one that is the weak link. A perfection loop may be weaker than some other loop knot but so what. That connection is not the potential point of failure.


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

I'm having trouble seeing how it wouldn't be the failure point. Can you describe the leader where it isn't, from fly line to fly? Thanks


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

I guess it depends on the leader and what you are fishing for. In this instance I thought the guy using the perfection loop for tying on a fly was for tarpon. And in that instance his bite tippet loop knot is still going to be stronger than his class tippet.

But back to the original thread topic and permit. Lets say you are using 20# tippet. And lets assume you know how to tie a good knot/loop. Any of the connections being discussed here, when tied correctly, will be above 80% of the rated line class, so 16#.

Now take your fly rod (any one you want) and try and put 16# of pressure on that rod. You can't. Period. Nor can you break 16# tippet with straight pull. The reason a 16# leader breaks is for a couple of reasons.
1. Bad material (rare but it does happen)
2. Leader that gets chaffed during the fight from the fish or some underwater obstruction.
3. Angler error - incorrectly tied connection or bad fighting technique

Only #3 causes a connection to fail. So the best protection against a connection failure is to use whatever connection you are good at when tying under stress. Its one thing to tie a perfect blood knot when you are sitting at home versus sitting in a rocking boat with a string of poons heading your way!

For me I rarely use an improved blood knot for saltwater fishing. I have a hard time getting a good knot for the size of tippet I am typically using (rarely less than 15 and usually I use 20). I use a double uni for those heavier materials. Now when trout fishing I typically use an improved blood knot.


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## Pierson (Mar 16, 2016)

No matter what knot/line/application ALWAYS test your knots as hard as you can. I don't worry about my knots failing because I can apply more pressure with my own two hands than a fish plus my fly rod plus my drag. People over estimate how much pressure they actually put on fish especially with a fly rod. When I tie a knot, I pull on it until it is about to cut into my skin. I cant remember the last time I had a knot failure in many many years. I wear a pair of these when I tie most of my braid connections to save my fingers. 
http://www.orvis.com/p/buff-strippi...c0kTnSc752fYMd9EK0LiGpRbN65BNL71oYaAnOJ8P8HAQ


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## tailwalk (Nov 20, 2016)

Spot on about properly tied knots. I remember somewhere someone saying better to use a weaker knot tied properly than a stronger one tied wrong. Fair point re: ability to put pressure on. I guess at 80% even 16lb still nets like 12-13... okay then, you guys have me convinced. Thanks


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

tailwalk said:


> Looking for some help building permit leaders. Advice on material/brand, overall length, knots (vs knotless?), formulas, and any other considerations appreciated.
> 
> My current thinking is 100% fluorocarbon (rio fluoroflex vs seaguar [blue vs premier]), 10' overall starting with 40lb, then 30 then 20 or 16, 5', 2.5', 2.5'. Perfection loop to fly line, blood knots connecting sections and double figure 8 to fly.
> Would love to hear thoughts/critiques/experiences etc...
> ...


That will work, except use a double figure 8 loop knot (Steve Huff loop knot) on the butt leader connection to the fly line, since it will help track the leader straighter and the tag end will point back to the fly, reducing moss and weed pickups. Then do a non-slip mono loop (or Lefty Krey loop knot) at the fly (again, tag points back towards the fly). I've found that both of these loop knots are the strongest loop knots possible. And when your crab is in the grass, those swept back tag ends will keep those big eyes from spotting weeds fouling up things.

Ted


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