# Bad fly casting!



## rakeel (Apr 9, 2014)

Sorry if this is a dumb question but are you talking about speeding up his casting stroke to generate line speed or the drill itself of repeatedly false casting faster and faster?

The drill seems pointless and dumb, but if you want your line to travel really fast isn't your casting stroke naturally going to have to speed up to keep up with it/ get it there? I understand tight loops are the way to go, but at some point faster line speeds are needed to punch through wind or shoot line further no?


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## 321nole (Jan 11, 2016)

hm, im far from being an expert, in fact almost as far from it as you possibly can be....but im fairly certain everything Ive been taught revolved around the basic idea that everyone's casting style is slightly unique to them and that gear selection should reflect that to maximize their casting performance

and if he's really just preaching casting strength and durability, there are better ways to go about that...like the gym, or even a single dumbbell/exercise band at home for rotator cuff and shoulder work lol


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Using your stripping hand to build line speed by double hauling is critical. But there is zero value to that crazy three foot pull he is using. Once the rod is loaded its loaded. No additional distance in your line hand stroke is going to do anything other than what Ted said......shoulder problems.


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## rakeel (Apr 9, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> Using your stripping hand to build line speed by double hauling is critical. But there is zero value to that crazy three foot pull he is using. Once the rod is loaded its loaded. No additional distance in your line hand stroke is going to do anything other than what Ted said......shoulder problems.


Ahhh, this makes more sense. I see what your saying. He's keeping carrying the same amount of line but lengthening his casting stroke for no reason. Thanks


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

My most successful casts tend to be those that are relaxed and patient ...


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

As ifsteve suggested getting the double haul correct will do a lot more to build line speed and tighten your loop than casting double time like a spaz. 

When you get going that fast your accuracy has probably gone to hell and the pressure waves you are creating rocking the boat are probably big enough for the fish to surf on. You will have to be in the company of some stupid fish if you are going to get a legitimate shot flailing around like that.


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## GullsGoneWild (Dec 16, 2014)

crboggs said:


> My most successful casts tend to be those that are relaxed and patient ...


 This suites my style as well. When I get frustrated or when im just not paying attention to everything I get sloppy and try to push my casts. I now tell myself that slow is smooth and smooth is fast.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Half that stroke and make an abrupt stop instead of creeping through his stop front and back at the end, and would probably have a razor of a loop.... Haul looked ok but a bit jerky, I've found that if I jerk when hauling it makes the tip of the already loaded rod dip lower than the plane the line is on and actually creates tailers that way.
Ok I've done my armchair quarterbacking cast instructing for the day, god help whomever listened haha.

Honestly, I'm a mediocre caster, my British spey casting buddy says "it's effortless power, not powerless effort" I'm not sure if it's the accent or the ease that he bombs out a perfect 100'+ cast, but it kinda pisses me off every time he says it. Lol


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## anytide (Jul 30, 2009)

thats how dickeys cast....


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Funny, I was just teaching the haul to someone this past weekend. They were hauling 3+ feet with their line hand. I told them to shorten it up since anything more has diminishing returns and puts the line hand way too far away to effectively shoot line. Plus, the line hand is too far away to control the line properly as it shoots and lands. The line hand needs at most one foot of tug, even less if done at the most efficient time.

I do find myself getting lazy at times with the haul, breaking my own rule from above. But when I tighten it up, I can immediately tell how much better my cast is and how efficient it is.

One other observation - I notice newbies trying to horse that final cast. And also trying to get one more false cast in to get that extra distance, only to horse it and force it. The extra hauling speed comes into play here as well.

Less is more - be efficient, get the fly in front of the fish with the minimal amount of effort and false casts. That eliminates the time the line is in the air and the fish to feel any movement from the boat. I've learned chances dramatically increase with the least amount of false casts. I try to emphasize one false cast at most to hit 50'. Ideally, no false cast to hit 50'. But that takes time to learn.

But then again, I've seen a red 10 feet from the boat get hit 8 times and finally eat. Or that tarpon who followed the boat and finally changed his mind and gulped the fly at the boat.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

GullsGoneWild said:


> This suites my style as well. When I get frustrated or when im just not paying attention to everything I get sloppy and try to push my casts. I now tell myself that...... *"slow is smooth and smooth is fast"*.


THAT!!!


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

coconutgroves said:


> I try to emphasize one false cast at most to hit 50'. Ideally, no false cast to hit 50'.


That's the ticket! I think too many guys get stuck on images of dry fly fisherman false casting like crazy. 

I think one of the most important parts of the cast that's never discussed is the Water Haul. If you can water haul, you can then shoot line using only the backcast to load the rod. It's the fastest way to get your fly in front of the fish instantly.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

*anytide* - "thats how dickeys cast...." <----- _That's actually funny!_
"" <------ _Huh??? _


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## rakeel (Apr 9, 2014)

Net 30 said:


> That's the ticket! I think too many guys get stuck on images of dry fly fisherman false casting like crazy.
> 
> I think one of the most important parts of the cast that's never discussed is the Water Haul. If you can water haul, you can then shoot line using only the backcast to load the rod. It's the fastest way to get your fly in front of the fish instantly.


I get some of my best casts off of a water haul. Like you said, shoot some line in my back cast, then a quick haul and shoot line with my forward cast. The way you can load your rod picking it up off the water sets you up for a nice cast. 



coconutgroves said:


> Funny, I was just teaching the haul to someone this past weekend. They were hauling 3+ feet with their line hand. I told them to shorten it up since anything more has diminishing returns and puts the line hand way too far away to effectively shoot line. Plus, the line hand is too far away to control the line properly as it shoots and lands. The line hand needs at most one foot of tug, even less if done at the most efficient time.


I'm fo sho guilty of overhauling with my line hand. I thought longer hauls meant my rod would load deeper and get me further casts. But what I found was for whatever reason those long hauls were putting a little slack in my line and causing me to throw tailing loops. I think it's bc when I haul that long length, it that much longer which means the recovery back up to the reel has to be rushed. When I would rush that recovery on the up movement of my haul I was allowing slack. At least that's what I think happened. Anyways, shortening up my haul and making sure I keep my line hand close to the reel has really cleaned up my double haul. Another thing that has cleaned up my haul is slightly delaying the start of my to when the rod actually start to load, rather than hauling from the start of my casting stroke. 

I really try to limit my amount of false casts and work on quick casts. I'm not a great caster so the more false casts I make the more chance for me to screw something up. I'm also constantly reminding myself not to horse my cast. I think that's instinctual for most people at first and it's just something you have to break.


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## BarHopper (May 23, 2016)

Great comments, guys! - I'm probably an intermediate caster and should be better - definitely fight over muscling/speeding my casts - many thanks!


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## redjim (Oct 16, 2012)

Hi Ted 

Wow, that was rough!!!

After watching that I just had to go back and watch my favorite caster of all time.


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## hookemdano (Feb 9, 2007)

This must just be some bizarre exercise. I know that everyone talks of how dumb redfish are up my way but lots of days you get one false cast and then you better drop the fly. Or they will see you and it's over. That's been my experience with panhandle tarpon on several occasions too.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

redjim said:


> Hi Ted
> 
> Wow, that was rough!!!
> 
> After watching that I just had to go back and watch my favorite caster of all time.


Hey jim, glad to see you tuning in!

Yea there is nothing speed casting there, yet he'll slice thru wind like butter with that cast, and with just a few strokes! Simple, slow, smooth and easy! and at his age, he has no shoulder problems! 

No doubt about it, Flip is one of the masters!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Net 30 said:


> That's the ticket! I think too many guys get stuck on images of dry fly fisherman false casting like crazy.
> 
> I think one of the most important parts of the cast that's never discussed is the Water Haul. If you can water haul, you can then shoot line using only the backcast to load the rod. It's the fastest way to get your fly in front of the fish instantly.


Absolutely!


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

I am teaching my younger brother who recently got into fly fishing. He didn't grow up fishing like me and his other brother, so he isn't starting off with any bad habits... but he has a lot to learn as well.

I had him on a few fish recently where he took way too many false casts and lost the fish. I am teaching him to pole and guide too, so I was on the nose directing him. A tailer popped up i told him to hold - I dropped it on the tail without any false cast and the fish ate immediately. You can imagine his reaction! I turned around and emphasized that is why accuracy and eliminating false casting is so important. Not only did he learn a valuable lesson while on the platform, he saw the game unfold in an efficient way. He loved it.

Here is my rank of each part of a cast:

Accuracy
Quickness of cast
Stealth and quietness
Cleanliness of cast and line (good line management, not shooting slack into the cast)
Distance

I'll take accuracy over distance all day long. It is way more important in over 80% of the situations. But that distance comes in handy for that elusive fish that is just out of reach. It happens and it's good to be prepared for it.


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## MSG (Jan 11, 2010)

I love watching how Flip starts and STOPS. The stop is so pronounced - that is some sweet casting. I've been really working on my stopping, but I rarely see people stop so short and so abruptly - that exactly what I've been trying to re learn - a great video to see. So effortless...


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

I wasn't going to chime in because I don't consider myself much more than an adequate caster. I'm almost wholly self-taught except for watching a few Lefty Kreh, Flip Pallot, and Mel Krieger videos online.

But, that video in the OP goes against literally everything I've ever seen or done. In fact, I know that when my cast goes to hell it's because I'm going too damn fast and trying to muscle it.

For me that was by far the hardest thing to learn. Once I understood the concepts of how to form a tight loop and how the rod tip needed to track a flat plane I got immediately better. But forcing myself to slow down and at the same time create an abrupt stop was harder because I had to overcome years of being a conventional gear guy.


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

The guy looks like he's trying to thrash a cow to death!
JC


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Net 30 said:


> That's the ticket! I think too many guys get stuck on images of dry fly fisherman false casting like crazy.
> 
> I think one of the most important parts of the cast that's never discussed is the Water Haul. If you can water haul, you can then shoot line using only the backcast to load the rod. It's the fastest way to get your fly in front of the fish instantly.


That's right Net. It has to be water loaded at times to make quick casts and be more successful. Had some inexperienced
(with redfish) guys last week go 0 for 8 on mostly close spooky reds because they had not learned to water haul yet. They were both good casters and had caught permit and bones.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

When Lefty teaches he always showed the long pull as a thing NOT to do
Anyway what is that speedy cast for...wind?


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

coconutgroves said:


> Funny, I was just teaching the haul to someone this past weekend. They were hauling 3+ feet with their line hand. I told them to shorten it up since anything more has diminishing returns and puts the line hand way too far away to effectively shoot line. Plus, the line hand is too far away to control the line properly as it shoots and lands. The line hand needs at most one foot of tug, even less if done at the most efficient time.
> 
> I do find myself getting lazy at times with the haul, breaking my own rule from above. But when I tighten it up, I can immediately tell how much better my cast is and how efficient it is.
> 
> ...


Well said, what always screws me up is buck fever when a big fish suddenly appears, lol


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Steve_Mevers said:


> Well said, what always screws me up is buck fever when a big fish suddenly appears, lol


I still get that from time to time when the fish are big. For some unexplainable reason my casting tempo will speed up like it's going to help get the fly there quicker. I have learned to recognize it quickly and adjust, but I think it initially has to do with adrenaline.


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## redjim (Oct 16, 2012)

Great point! I thought it was just me.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

When I stop having buck fever when a fish unexpectedly shows up I will hang up my fly rods! I don't ever want that feeling to go away. Control it better, yes. But dear Lord please let me have that feeling until the day I die.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> When I stop having buck fever when a fish unexpectedly shows up I will hang up my fly rods! I don't ever want that feeling to go away. Control it better, yes. But dear Lord please let me have that feeling until the day I die.


LOL.... Ditto!


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## tibor25 (Apr 17, 2016)

Met Jerry Siem last year in the Keys, great guy. Saw the man cast, it was probably the most incredible thing ive ever seen. Either hand didn't matter, could put the fly wherever he wanted.


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## rakeel (Apr 9, 2014)

MSG said:


> I love watching how Flip starts and STOPS. The stop is so pronounced - that is some sweet casting. I've been really working on my stopping, but I rarely see people stop so short and so abruptly - that exactly what I've been trying to re learn - a great video to see. So effortless...


This is what I noticed as well. The abrupt STOP in his casts with pretty much no drift afterwards. That is what I strive for.


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## billhempel (Oct 9, 2008)

redjim said:


> Hi Ted
> 
> Wow, that was rough!!!
> 
> After watching that I just had to go back and watch my favorite caster of all time.


Been fishing in the same skiff with Flip in the Lagoon. He uses little effort and makes the rod/line combo work for him as it should. Shorter strokes, etc. Chico does that too. He doesnt let himself get worked up about much (a least in fishing). I tend to overwork it the more I cast and I should not. The more relaxed I am the better my casts. No question.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

The funny thing about buck fever when seeing a big fish is that if the shot I have to make is one where I don't have time to think about it I'm a 1000 times better caster.

If have to make a quick chip shot cast or even bomb out a long cast to a fish moving away I'm substantially better than when there seems to be plenty of time to get set up and make my cast.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Funny story in regards to buck fever - I fish some areas where some big reds show up inside the bays here on the TX coast (it's more of an estuary system, so you don't get large number of marsh donkeys like you do in LA).

My same brother I mentioned earlier in thread was on the nose and low and behold I see a HUMONGOUS v wake about 150' coming our way. I know the area, so knew the fish was following a ridge underwater where grass and sand meet.

I told my brother how the deal was going to unfold. Told him to hold his cast, make sure to have enough line out. I would pole directly to the wake and the fish is going to continue its path. I would spin the stern for him to make the cast. Super quiet, but the cast has to get out there.

I saw buck fever happen in slow motion. It brought me back to one of the first times I ever cast at a larger tarpon. So much adrenaline, tunnel vision and everything goes to shit. The distance of his cast was cut in half, I immediately told him to pick up and hit it again, but instead he pulled out more line in the reel. The fish was at 40' now and slowed, the next cast was too far the side. I told him to recast and he paused. The fish looked me in the eyes, like to say "not this time homey!" turned and disappeared. It's tail was larger than my foot. Easily a 20 pound fish, probably pushing 25 with the abundance of big bait in the area.

He had to sit down after that. I gave him a beer to calm his nerves, then took him to school on every part of the hunt that went wrong and what to do better. It bothered him all weekend and he still gets worked up about it.

That definitely takes me back to how many times it happened to me when I blew the shot and how the guide must have felt. I had dreams of hitting him in the head with the pole, taking the rod and casting to the fish myself. He's my brother, not a client, so I could have gotten away with and had an even better story! But that's a part of learning - that fish will have him coming back to the day he gets one that big. He's lucky though - his first red he caught on the fly was 10 pounds!


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

*lol*

Buck fever...


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## MSG (Jan 11, 2010)

I spent some time in the yard today trying to emulate Flips motion a bit - it really helped me - way less effort and the line really shoots - I'm going to continue working on my stops - I had been on that mission prior to the video - but the video really helped


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## Roninrus1 (Mar 9, 2016)

Man, that made my shoulder sore just watching the guy!


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Lefty always said " speed up and stop". I try and some times I do it right


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