# Tapered Leaders



## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

If you're not into nail knots, Orvis has a special on a/r knotless tapered leaders @ 2.15 up to 20lb. Hard to beat.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Nail knots? Does anybody still use those? The only time I use a nail knot anymore is for connecting a butt section to a fly line that doesn't have a loop on the end. Perhaps you meant to say blood knot?


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

ifsteve said:


> Nail knots? Does anybody still use those? The only time I use a nail knot anymore is for connecting a butt section to a fly line that doesn't have a loop on the end. Perhaps you meant to say blood knot?


Whoa there cowboy. 

I posted this to let those who may be interested in a deal on tapers, not to learn of your contentious and condescending opinion on knots. To answer your question, yes I still do. I happen to think it's a smoother knot, ok? Not sure many people really care about what knot you use for what, if that was the point of your post.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

I was merely asking if you actually use nail knots to tie leaders. Sorry to sound condescending. I just have never seen or heard anybody using that knot to tie leaders.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Blue Zone, that's a good deal for tapered leaders.

Steve, he's right that a nail not with a tapered leader is more streamline. But a lot of people these days don't go with that system anymore and like the conveniences of a loop to loop connection for quick leader change outs. However, you could still use a taper leader and do a loop connection to a loop in the fly line, or use a nail not to connect it to the fly line and then when the tippet gets cut back to far, then add more tippet using an albright or blood knot or a loop to loop connection for the tippet and bite/shock leader. 

I end up custom making up my own leader systems as my needs may change a bit here or there. But I always recommend tapered leaders for folks starting out in fly fishing or just for ease of use. They just are dang expensive. But for $2.15, that cheap since I might have $5-$10 in man hrs in labor making up my own! LOL

Ted


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

That's a good deal on the premade leaders.

I have started tying the Chico Fernandez 50/30/20 style leaders from his book...all you need is Ande mono in 40, 30, and 20# spools and a tie-fast tool...

5' of 40# mono, 3' of 30# mono, 2' of 20# mono...

If I am throwing gurglers, poppers, crease flies, etc then I tie the fly right onto the 20# section.

If I am throwing at reds in skinny water then I add on about 12-18" of 14# flouro tippet. This extends you past 10' total length and gets the fly down below the surface without the belly of a longer fluoro leader dragging your fly into the grass or oysters.

If I am throwing at snook, tarpon, etc around structure then I add a 20-30# flouro bite tippet.

The Ande mono is cheaper, easier to tie with, and lays out like a dream when cast.

Obviously, if fishing deeper water or intermed / sinking lines then you'd want an all flouro leader.


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

I use a nail knot to connect my butt section to the line in all cases except for a mono core line, a nail knot will just strip the casing right off a mono core line. I don't like the preformed loops that come on lines now, too bulky, always gets stuck if it gets into the guides.
JC


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Now I am more confused than ever. Are any of you saying that you use nail knots to build a leader? Or just a nail knot to connect the butt to the fly line? 

There is no doubt that a nail knot connection is smoother than a loop to loop but that is NOT what the OP inferred. He inferred that is you don't like tying nail knots to build an entire leader that Orvis had a good deal on tapered leaders. So enlighten me. Do any of you tie a full leader using nail knots?


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

Oh. My. God.

If you read my post #3 you would notice that I still do, though I just bought 25 packs of tapered leaders. Your question is answered. What exactly does this have to do with my post about an Orvis sale? You point is what? It's been a while since you have come on here with a contentious derail. Bored are you?


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Sorry for the derail. You are the one that started with the instead of a nail knot here are some good tapered leaders. Killer deal. My point, which was more of a question which you have answered, is that indeed some guys do tie leaders using nail knots. I had just never heard of that. 

Again sorry. And no I am not bored I went fishing today.....


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## AfterHours2 (Aug 2, 2010)

So, do you fellas prefer nail knots to make your own leaders or what


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Gents!!! lol

Don't worry Blue, Steve is a gentleman for sure! Just to clarify, I think what he's trying to get at is he misunderstood that you sometimes make you your leader system using all nail knots between materials. I guess one could use a nail knot to nail knot connection.  But I believe Blue is referring to a nail knot to connect the leader to the fly line. 

Speaking for myself when making up leaders, I generally use blood knots when connecting the butt section materials up to each other right down to the tippet and then use an albright to connect the tippet to the shock leader.

On the connection from leader to the flyline, I use several different ways, depending on what I feel I like to do, according on what rod it will be used for and the fish and conditions I will be in. I'll use simple nail knot connections, use mfg loops in the fly line for loop to loops, make my own loops in the fly lines, use a nail knot to a 6" piece of 40/50lb whatever, then loop at the end of that to use with a loop to loop connection, etc... etc... Lots of ways to skin a cat! 

Chris, I think these guys has that covered. But your right, it's hard to go wrong with the Chico plan!  
Afterhours2.... What! haha!


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Am I the only person who uses a straight 20# fluro tippet/leader for inshore saltwater and bass? And yes, I do use a nail knot to attach the leader to my fly line if there's no loop.


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## Bonecracker (Mar 29, 2007)

I with Vertigo here!!! Keep it simple stupid!!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Vertigo said:


> Am I the only person who uses a straight 20# fluro tippet/leader for inshore saltwater and bass? And yes, I do use a nail knot to attach the leader to my fly line if there's no loop.



Curious, how long is that 20lb leader. And up to Bonecracker's response, I was going to say.... yes!


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Some very good Texas fly fishermen use four to six ft of 16lb hard mason then a fluro bite tippet for red fish.


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

A lot striper fishermen in NE use the straight shot of 20lb, but they don't seem to care much about turnover, I use a 10'- 12' foot leader tied to the Lefty/Chico formula. 
JC


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

The length of the leader I use depends on the weight and type fly, the depth of water and the rod I'm using on any particular day. Sometimes it's as short as 4', sometimes 8' or more. And yes, in some situations I do use a tapered leader, usually with lighter flies, topwater flies and for bass. Redfish, OTOH don't need a lot of subtlety and local oyster bars and limestone do tend to be hard on lighter leaders.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Vertigo said:


> The length of the leader I use depends on the weight and type fly, the depth of water and the rod I'm using on any particular day. Sometimes it's as short as 4', sometimes 8' or more. And yes, in some situations I do use a tapered leader, usually with lighter flies, topwater flies and for bass. Redfish, OTOH don't need a lot of subtlety and local oyster bars and limestone do tend to be hard on lighter leaders.


Vertigo, with all due respect, as Jon Conner stated above, the key word is "turnover." Say for instance you are using a 8wt fly line and you are using 8ft of straight 20lb leader/tippet. The diameter of the fly line is 3 times that of the 20lb leader. So pulling a fly with any weight or size to it will hinge at that point where the diameter drops that much and the energy will fall apart and disperse so that the leader will not fully and properly roll out. This is the main reason why the design of fly lines have built in tapers, unless you are using it more to just launch the fly out there instead of a nice easy presentation. So yes, the momentum of the fly can continue once the leader hinges, but it will either plop down, loop around, go off in some erratic direction or just lose energy and fall apart into a pile of mess. Your flyline did the job of getting the distance, but who knows where the fly landed and how hard it hit the water.

Many people think that the only key to successful fly fishing is to just chunk the fly out to the fish (kinda like chunking a plug or jig out to it on a spinning rod). But it's been proven that proper presentation of the fly to a sighted fish is more productive to keeping from spooking the fish and getting it to eat. Having a properly designed taper leader or a system (recipe of making your own tapered leader) is important to getting that energy transferred from the fly line out thru the leader so it will properly roll the entire leader out and therefore the fly in the direction the fly line was going. That is key to accuracy with larger saltwater flies, especially when casting any sort of distance. That energy transfer also helps to unroll the leader/ fly out when the wind is blowing as well. Otherwise, that stepdown of diameter kills all the energy and it's like you hitting a wall at the end of your fly line and everything else past that literally stops right then and drops to the water in a pile of mess, tho the momentum of the fly might travel a few more feet beyond that point.

Now assuming your casting is good and proper to throwing nice loops in your fly line, a good way to tell what your leader and fly is doing is to go out to a nicely cut wide open lawn and take your rig and a few of those flies (clousers or whatever you normally use out there) with the bend of the hook snipped off and then make a cast with your straight leader. As soon as you shoot the line out, lay the rod down and go walk out and look at the leader and the fly as it lays there on the ground, relative to the fly line and the direction the fly line was traveling. Do this several times to analyze what's happening. Then change out the leader to a mgfd saltwater tapered leader or a hand tied tapered leader that follows a good recipe for turning over saltwater flies (like one I've described before on this site, or Chico's or something else that's considered standard). Then do the same. Once thrown, shot and laid out, go walk up and take a look. There should be a difference, considering you are not doing anything different with your casting stroke.

Can you catch fish with a straight leader? Yep! But I believe your ratio of successful eats to shallow water sighted fish will increase with a tapered leader to help with proper placement of the fly and the subtle presentation thereof.



Ted Haas


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## Bryan_G (Sep 22, 2014)

I'm horrible with my leaders and flies. That's one of the reasons I tie both myself. Sure, I have a lot of money in my materials, but my per unit cost is low enough that I don't shy away from mangroves or oysters. 

I'll often get lazy and just use a straight shot of 20lb with a tippet, but when I do take the time and make a tapered leader I notice the difference. Is it worth it? Sometimes, no.

I'm certainly not an expert. I have caught more fish with my fly in the water than while I was jacking around with my leader though.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

The leader is really an extension of the fly line and to perform well should be tapered with no hinge points. For best performance I use the shortest leader the fish allow me to use. Most of the time here eight to nine feet is a good length for clear shallow water red fish but sometimes longer for sheepshead and big sow trout in calm water.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Bryan_G said:


> I'm horrible with my leaders and flies. That's one of the reasons I tie both myself. Sure, I have a lot of money in my materials, but my per unit cost is low enough that I don't shy away from mangroves or oysters.
> 
> I'll often get lazy and just use a straight shot of 20lb with a tippet, but when I do take the time and make a tapered leader I notice the difference. Is it worth it? Sometimes, no.
> 
> I'm certainly not an expert. I have caught more fish with my fly in the water than while I was jacking around with my leader though.



Hence the reason why I think Blue Zone's original post was good to know for only $2, you can have one pre made and ready to go in your bag just in case and could tie that on just as fast as tying on a single piece of 20lb leader. If you broke damaged or cut some of the tippet side of that leader, then you can add a couple feet of 20lb to that since the butt section would still be good. Same goes with tapered leaders you make up, such as the one that crboggs described above using Chicho's formula. Just cut the tippet off the butt section of the leader and tie on a new piece of tipp material (20lb or less, whichever you use).

With tapered leaders you tie up yourself, you just tie up a couple of them one evening and keep 2 in your bag as spares just in case. I rarely have to change out an entire leader on a fishing trip out on the water and at most, just re-tie a new tippet and bite/shock leader on.

Remember, there are 3 sections of a saltwater tapered leader. The butt section, the tippet and the shock or bite leader. The butt section is the majority of length between your fly line to the fly., then the tippet, which in saltwater can be anywheres from 10-20lbs and from 18" to 3 ft. At least a 2ft tippet is what I always recommend and sometimes you'll find me going out to 3ft for more stealthy presentations and there keeping a long distance between the fly and hat butt leader system (which is bigger and easier to see). That said, a mfg tapered leader, like the one by Orvis that Blue Zone was describing has the butt section and tippet all feathered in as one long piece. Follow the thinnest end up to about 2 ft back up towards the thickest part, from the thinnest part and you'll find the tippet. At that point, there is no reason why you can't clip that off (if scuffed up or broke off) and tie on a new 2ft piece of tippet and then add your bite leader and get back out there fishing.

At that point, some will carry a couple of pre-made up tippets and/or tippets with bite leader with a loop serviced on one end and just add a loop loop to either your pre-made hand tied butt leader section, or clip back your tapered leader back a couple of feet to remove the thin tippet and just tie a loop in right there. Then your tippets can be quickly changed out with a new tippet and only do a loop to loop connection. It's quick and easy! 

So if you are using 20lb tippet for redfish, trout, drum, weak fish, pompano, bass, etc, then you would not need a shock or bite tippet. But if you are chasing those same fish tith 10-15lb tippet, then adding a 12-18" piece of 20lb bite tippet (also called shock leader) to the end of that (well for the exception of bass). For toothy critters and fish that can cut normal tippet, suck as snook, tarpon, but trout, ladyfish, jacks, pelagics, then I'll add 30lb bite leader to the end of my tippet (if not more, depending on what's called for).

Trust me when I say it can be just as fast out there on the water to change out tippets or even whole leader systems if you are prepared and follow those steps, as you would stringing up more 20lb leader.

Ted


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

Backwater said:


> Hence the reason why I think Blue Zone's original post was good to know for only $2, you can have one pre made and ready to go in your bag just in case and could tie that on just as fast as tying on a single piece of 20lb leader. If you broke damaged or cut some of the tippet side of that leader, then you can add a couple feet of 20lb to that since the butt section would still be good. Same goes with tapered leaders you make up, such as the one that crboggs described above using Chicho's formula. Just cut the tippet off the butt section of the leader and tie on a new piece of tipp material (20lb or less, whichever you use).
> 
> With tapered leaders you tie up yourself, you just tie up a couple of them one evening and keep 2 in your bag as spares just in case. I rarely have to change out an entire leader on a fishing trip out on the water and at most, just re-tie a new tippet and bite/shock leader on.
> 
> ...


Thanks Ted. Didn't know this post would get tangled into wind knots of debate. The ends are looped, by the way.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

> Can you catch fish with a straight leader? Yep! But I believe your ratio of successful eats to shallow water sighted fish will increase with a tapered leader to help with proper placement of the fly and the subtle presentation thereof.
> 
> 
> 
> Ted Haas


If the question is can I catch fish with a straight leader, the answer is yes, and I did so yesterday. If delicate presentation were important where and how I fish, I would use a tapered leader, but for the fish I target in the conditions where I fish, it's more productive and more economical not to worry about making up fancy leaders or spending two bucks a pop for leaders that are going to get dragged over oyster bars.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

I subscribe to the K.I.S.S. methodology when it comes to leaders. That's "keep it simple stupid" for the uninitiated.

Firstly, if a fly line doesn't have a loop in it I'll make a loop and lock that down with a double or triple-nail knot. On 10wt & up I'll cut off factory loops and tie my own which I've found to be stronger.

I use a loop-to-loop connection from my fly line to the butt section.

And except for tarpon leaders I use a 2-piece recipe almost exclusively.

8wt for reds & specks, etc- About a 7' butt section of 20# Hard Mason and a 16# flouro tippet. In my few occasions hunting bones that 16# gets dialed down to 10 or 12# flouro.

10wt = 30# butt section of Hard Mason with a 20# flouro tippet. My few occasions after permit sees that 20# flouro dialed down to 16# flouro.

Depending on my mood I'll use an Albright or a uni-to-uni knot to connect the butt section to the tippet.

I'm a big fan of the Hard Mason as a butt section. I've found it works really well in turning over big, nasty flies, is abrasion resistant (lots of oysters where I fish) and with a little stretching almost impossible to get wind knots in it.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> I subscribe to the K.I.S.S. methodology when it comes to leaders. That's "keep it simple stupid" for the uninitiated.
> 
> Firstly, if a fly line doesn't have a loop in it I'll make a loop and lock that down with a double or triple-nail knot. On 10wt & up I'll cut off factory loops and tie my own which I've found to be stronger.
> 
> ...


Finn, Bonecracker already mentioned KISS.

Look Finn, we all know you're a big bad fly fishing dude who has whacked plenty of fish on the head with a fly  and I understand that leader system works for you. There's nothing wrong with doing what you want and doing what works for you. But you'll find that many experienced pros like pro staff, instructors and pro guides in the industry don't subscribe nor teach that method. 

There's also nothing wrong either with hard mason. It's good stuff and it's been around since before you were born, in the fly fishing world. So yes it helps to turn flies over better than mono, which tends to be a little softer material and the mason still floats, as opposed to fluoro. If you were fishing sinking flies and still want the stiffer material and want more stealth, you'll find going all fluoro will be about as stiff as mason, will disappear better and will allow the fly to sink faster and have a more forward action than bumping up and down. So mason is good but a little pricey. Still, it helps and still has it's place.

Loop to loop connections are good too. I use that in most of my stuff as well and yes on the bigger lines, some of the mfgd loops are not 100% reliable. So I too service my own loops for that. But it's not that big of a deal on the lighter lines. So it's just too easy to change something out in the field with that loop system, as opposed to a re-tie back to the fly line. But as Blue Zone commented, it's not as stealthy of a connection. Ok fine. Someone on this thread also said that it can be difficult to run it up the guides and then have it zipped back out by a big tarpon in a nano second with a good head shake. I've seen tippets break and rods get pulled apart by that. Same thing with big pelagics. So most things I use a loop in the fly line to do a loop to loop, but not all things. If I'm going for ultra stealth like bones or freshwater trout, then I'll nail knot the butt section of the leader to the fly line. Or, big bad mean fish that I know a bulky connection might cause a problem if the leader when it gets run up the guides (mostly with other people using my equipment, which I know not to run it up the guides), then I'll use a modified nail not system, which I'll leave for another talk.

So, try this, make up another 7' leader butt section (Btw, good size!) and instead of one straight piece, steep up the first 4ft with 10lbs heavier of that same mason you use, and keep your tippet the way you use it. So in the case of your 8wt, start out with 4ft of 30lb mason. The top end gets the loop. Next, tie in 3ft of your 20lb mason using a blood knot or whatever knot you choose to use. That would be your 7ft butt section of your leader. Then connect your normal tippet as you normally do. I promise you, that if you checked the performance of the two with the side by side test on the lawn like I described above, you will see a better result, especially in the wind with the bigger/ heavier flies. So it is not that much harder to make up but will help. We'll call it, the "semi-kiss" system for you! 

Vertigo, IF you went to just one more step like what I recommended to Finn, then you might see a difference as well, although the mono would work as well as his mason/fluoro combination.

Hey, I'm not picking on you but just letting you know there's an alternative way to keep it easy still and get a little better performance. I consider myself a semi-ole dog and can still learn new tricks. I'm sure we all can too! But I do pick on those guys who throw on straight 50-80lbs on their big sticks, because aside from being no sport in that, it will break a rod at the boat quicker than you can blink an eye. In that case, that "kiss" system is just plain dumb!  Ha! So in other words, the tippet is the "fuse!"  Nuff said about that!

Ok then, sorry ya'll for getting off topic! But I love these lil talks! lol 

Ted


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

So there you have it, the complete explanation of why leaders should be tapered. 
I have never understood why the guys who say they don't care about turnover are willing to sacrifice 10' of distance in their casts, even when blind casting a little more distance means you're covering more water, or if you're throwing against the shore you're in touch with your fly almost instantly as opposed to having to pull out all that slack when your leader fell into a pile or off to the side. 
It takes me about five minutes to build a leader, with the material I have I start with .023" then .019, .015 loop, loop, .011, it's easy. That's what Lefty, Chico and many others prescribe, you're cheating yourself out of distance and accuracy and saving very little by dumbing it down.
My additional .02,
JC


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