# Please, not another Conchfish build!



## DuckNut

Yippee

Keep in mind your end goal of ridiculously light - with the materials you bought you are now in a game of ounces, not pounds. Extra resin is going to add the weight you are trying to keep off.

Looking forward to another build.


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## Fritz

I’ve got a plan for a strongback and all my forms cut out. I don’t have an indoor location for this build, so I’m going to make do. About 25 man hours so far, but that includes my mistakes...

Following Sublime’s advice with the tracing paper, one of my forms was not symmetrical, rather then fix it I just rejected it.

The foam arrives on Monday... I hope.


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## Guest

Congrats!

Follow Chris’ advise to build super light. I would maybe consider substituting a little carbon in a few areas to keep super light yet strong/rigid. Good luck with the build!


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## Fritz

Boatbrains said:


> Congrats!
> 
> Follow Chris’ advise to build super light. I would maybe consider substituting a little carbon in a few areas to keep super light yet strong/rigid. Good luck with the build!


Thanks Boatbrains, I’m planning on annoying you a bit along the way, I have much to learn.

Carbon is cool, but might be a bit pricey to experiment with on a first time build.


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## Guest

Fritz said:


> Thanks Boatbrains, I’m planning on annoying you a bit along the way, I have much to learn.
> 
> Carbon is cool, but might be a bit pricey to experiment with on a first time build.


Pricey yes, but you’ll only need a few yds to stiffen/back the glass with and worth the extra for an ultralight build if using epoxy already! If you're using poly then no, you won’t see the benefits of the carbon.


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## Chris Morejohn

Carbon fiber is only needed for designs that need viagra or cialis to stay stiff. 
Keep to my plans / specs and she will be way lighter than any skiff out there and just as strong.
If wanting to use a new cloth use 1 layer of Basalt 10oz cloth on the last layer on the bottom instead of the specified 10 oz. cloth.
The hull will be plenty stiff enough using 3/4” core and my specs.
All the early Whiprays were built using 1/2” core. 
If built as you are planing she will come in around 300 lbs.


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## Guest

Chris Morejohn said:


> Carbon fiber is only needed for designs that need viagra or cialis to stay stiff.
> Keep to my plans / specs and she will be way lighter than any skiff out there and just as strong.
> If wanting to use a new cloth use 1 layer of Basalt 10oz cloth on the last layer on the bottom instead of the specified 10 oz. cloth.
> The hull will be plenty stiff enough using 3/4” core and my specs.
> All the early Whiprays were built using 1/2” core.
> If built as you are planing she will come in around 300 lbs.


Chris, you are right and I apologize. I mean no disrespect and am in no way second guessing you or your lam schedule. I am merely offering up a proven alternative that would undoubtably “stiffen” it up a little if wanted. Any advise/input I give I would hope folks run by you as the designer before changing from the design parameters by too much. I apologize if I overstepped in anyway, James


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## Chris Morejohn

Boatbrains said:


> Chris, you are right and I apologize. I mean no disrespect and am in no way second guessing you or your lam schedule. I am merely offering up a proven alternative that would undoubtably “stiffen” it up a little if wanted. Any advise/input I give I would hope folks run by you as the designer before changing from the design parameters by too much. I apologize if I overstepped in anyway, James


James, please say what you see and feel. We are all in this together. No offense taken. Many ways to get a skiff stiff.
But..... I will say this. Carbon costs $. It gives a % more stiffness than eglass cloth. Now if you add say 3 more layers of 10oz cloth in place of a couple of layers of carbon fiber you will get the wanted results at a fraction of the cost. Carbon fiber is carcinogenic if inhaled. So be careful when cutting and grinding.
Eglass fibers are too big to be exhaled through the nose. Carbon can make it past nasal passages.
To make carbon work well and useful in an open bottomed skiff like this the only place to use it would be in the hull bottom in the middle of each hull side out from the centerline and using only unidirectional carbon,
Or just lay in 3 more layers of 10 oz cloth one on top of each other. Say 14” Wide.
The crown of the bottom gives this design plenty of stiffness if using 3/4” core.
Add epoxy resin and my layup specs and she will be lighter than any skiff built out there.
And you won’t get the jumpy carbon skiff feel.


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## Chris Morejohn

Here’s a top of the line infused all carbon skiff hull. See all the sharp core edges that have not been tapered off as needed. Too much extra work in a factory build, but if building one-off all the chine edges are perfect.
This hulls inner carbon skin will fracture along all the untapered core edges over time as carbon is very brittle in sharp angles. All the carbon cloth that has been pulled down in vacuume will have pockets of resin underneath making the outer skin side brittle over time. See the unevenness of the bow core and the keel stem. This will have an uneven strength to the stem. This hull will be light and stiff but have very little impact resistance over time. Carbon is great if used properly. Don’t let your carbon push pole bend even slightly over a sharper edge. Same thing here. The hulls bottom pounding along will stress this inner carbon edge being bent over. The good news is you will never see it happen as it’s going to be all covered up by the rest of the build.
Go look at Seth Sawyer’s build and see the pictures of how it’s done properly, look up up #Confish16 build on instagram for more pictures of properly built cored lightweight all epoxy hulls.


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## Guest

Yeah, that looks pretty sloppy for the amount of $ spent on an all carbon build!
Way too much bridging of the gaps!


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## Fritz

Forms are mostly in place, need to finish truing everything up and come up with a transom design.

I’m going to copy Sethsawyer on the ledge, my plan is to cut the corner of the forms and use tabs to support a 3/4” foam ledge, squaring the form corners saves me beveling the foam edge. I wanted the widest ledge possible, was thinking 2 1/4”. That said every inch I extend the deck adds almost 3 square feet in area. Once the foam arrives I plan on laminating up some test pieces so I can weigh them and see how much working time I have with this epoxy. 

The last thing I’ll do is hit my test piece with a hammer because destructive testing is just fun.




















If I understand the plans the deck gets five layers of 10oz (3 on top/2 bottom) and the ledge 2, so seven layers total...

I’m about to order some 12x12 Lenco tabs, anybody have a better place to buy those?

31 hrs/$2,700


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## devrep

seem like big tabs for a small boat. my old waterman has 9x9's.


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## fjmaverick

Lol the good ole hammer test


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## DBStoots

Fritz said:


> I couldn’t stand it any longer, I had to try for it myself... so I bought the plans for the Conchfish, downloaded them to my iPad just over a week ago.
> 
> My intention is to stay fairly close to the original design, build as light as I can with no floor and probably no hatches, if only to keep things as simple as I can during the build process. I’m thinking F25 Yamaha, poling platform and a small side mounted grab bar, hoping for a ridiculously light pole only skiff.
> 
> I have never built anything like this before and have very limited experience with fiberglass, none with foam. This could get ugly... but nothing ventured right, and how else am I going to learn.
> 
> I’ll try to keep this thread updated on man hours and $ amounts. So far here’s where I’m at...
> $300 Plans
> $300 Strongback and form lumber
> $1,100 USComposites resin/fiberglass, I only have 7.5 gallons of 635, so I’m not done buying resin.
> $1,000 Carbon Core H80, the consensus is it takes 8 sheets of 3/4” as a minimum, so I bought 12, but am only putting the price of nine sheets into my ‘how much’ column. The shipping is fixed at $145 so I bought some extra for a few other crazy ideas. I also bought two sheets of 1/4”, we shall see if that come in handy.
> 
> So I’m into this for $2,700 thus far, as I buy more stuff I will try to itemize and keep the total current.
> 
> I strongly encourage feedback and constructive criticism, if your comment starts with “Are you stupid of something...” I’m cool with that.


You are a brave man! Best wishes with your project--I hope this turns out great!


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## Fritz

devrep said:


> seem like big tabs for a small boat. my old waterman has 9x9's.


You’re right, that does seem big. I got the 12x12 idea from page 2 of Sethsawyer’s most excellent build, that was Travis’s suggestion.

I just measured my 21’ center console has 12x9 and the Evox maybe 9x9, so now I’m less confident that 12x12 is the right answer.


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## Smackdaddy53

12x9 will give you more control than you will ever need. I love watching these builds unfold.


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## Sethsawyer

Talking to chris. 12x12s will allow you to run on plane super slow. 9x9s are probably enough and will save some weight if Leno standard tabs had a 12x9 I would have used those. Edge 12x9 Lenco mount would work. you would just need deeper pockets if you do bottom mount instead of wedges to mount your tabs.


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## el9surf

If you keep up the pace you might have a finished boat before Boatbrains as well.


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## DuckNut

el9surf said:


> If you keep up the pace you might have a finished boat before Boatbrains as well.


Ohhh no you don't brother...that's my line!!!


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## el9surf

DuckNut said:


> Ohhh no you don't brother...that's my line!!!


Haha. I was going to throw sublime in there as well but decided to leave him alone.


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## kamakuras

Smackdaddy53 said:


> 12x9 will give you more control than you will ever need. I love watching these builds unfold.


I just ran mine with 12x12's and they were great. Instant plane and super low speed if desired.


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## Backcountry 16

kamakuras said:


> I just ran mine with 12x12's and they were great. Instant plane and super low speed if desired.


Good to know I'm having one built right now and was going to go with the 12 by 9 but think I'll do the 12 by 12 now


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## makin moves

Backcountry 16 said:


> Good to know I'm having one built right now and was going to go with the 12 by 9 but think I'll do the 12 by 12 now


Planning at low speed I would think would benefit you with the area you run.


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## Fritz

Monday a big box of Carbon Core was delivered, light green and very dusty.

Took a square foot and put three layers of 10oz eglass on one side and two and a half on the other, all together this weighed just under a pound. This kinda makes sense, 5.3 oz ft/sq for the core, 10oz glass means 1.1 oz sq/ft and the rest is resin. Seems like 1oz of resin per square foot is a little on the high side. I put a layer of 10oz glasss on each side of a 1/4” sheet of foam to use for my flats and used 36oz of resin per side, so 3/4 oz of resin per sq ft might be closer. So we should be able to rough guess where we are weight wise on a build and the cost in pounds of changes to plan.

My first impression from the test piece is very light and very stiff, I’m impressed! Before I beat on it with a hammer, I want to put it under compression with a nut/bolt, all of this just for fun of course.

I bought another 7.5 gallons of resin and a set of 9x12 Edge mounted Bennett trim tabs, except for paint and a poling platform , I might have almost enough supplies to finish the boat. Chris recommends the 12x12 tabs for the slow speed performance, that just seemed so big for such a little boat. I may end up mounting the tabs to the transom and not underneath, I also think I could flip the tab over and, after a bit of cutting and grinding, have a skeg tab like the new HB Eldora does. I’m a bit nervous about installing Chris’s Skeg Keel, it does not look robust enough for a drive on dock so the flipped tab has a little bit of appeal.

Have decided to stick to the plans on the transom and will make that out of 3/4” core. Lost bit of time to rain this week, hazards of building outside, but I did get my flats nearly done before heading off to work, I’ll be out of town for two weeks, I’m sorry to report.

I also bought some Peel Ply. This has been mentioned a few times by Chris and my understanding is it has two functions, one is it will wick away the excess resin and blush happens on the Peel Ply (a nylon fabric) not on the glass AND when you peel off the fabric it leaves a textured surface that is ready for the next layer of glass, very little additional prep required. If I can’t get three coats of glass done wet to wet, this stuff might come in handy, it wasn’t overly expensive but I won’t count that into my build cost if I don’t use it.

55hrs/$3,600


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## Sethsawyer

Fritz said:


> View attachment 82642
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> 
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> 
> 
> Monday a big box of Carbon Core was delivered, light green and very dusty.
> 
> Took a square foot and put three layers of 10oz eglass on one side and two and a half on the other, all together this weighed just under a pound. This kinda makes sense, 5.3 oz ft/sq for the core, 10oz glass means 1.1 oz sq/ft and the rest is resin. Seems like 1oz of resin per square foot is a little on the high side. I put a layer of 10oz glasss on each side of a 1/4” sheet of foam to use for my flats and used 36oz of resin per side, so 3/4 oz of resin per sq ft might be closer. So we should be able to rough guess where we are weight wise on a build and the cost in pounds of changes to plan.
> 
> My first impression from the test piece is very light and very stiff, I’m impressed! Before I beat on it with a hammer, I want to put it under compression with a nut/bolt, all of this just for fun of course.
> 
> I bought another 7.5 gallons of resin and a set of 9x12 Edge mounted Bennett trim tabs, except for paint and a poling platform , I might have almost enough supplies to finish the boat. Chris recommends the 12x12 tabs for the slow speed performance, that just seemed so big for such a little boat. I may end up mounting the tabs to the transom and not underneath, I also think I could flip the tab over and, after a bit of cutting and grinding, have a skeg tab like the new HB Eldora does. I’m a bit nervous about installing Chris’s Skeg Keel, it does not look robust enough for a drive on dock so the flipped tab has a little bit of appeal.
> 
> Have decided to stick to the plans on the transom and will make that out of 3/4” core. Lost bit of time to rain this week, hazards of building outside, but I did get my flats nearly done before heading off to work, I’ll be out of town for two weeks, I’m sorry to report.
> 
> I also bought some Peel Ply. This has been mentioned a few times by Chris and my understanding is it has two functions, one is it will wick away the excess resin and blush happens on the Peel Ply (a nylon fabric) not on the glass AND when you peel off the fabric it leaves a textured surface that is ready for the next layer of glass, very little additional prep required. If I can’t get three coats of glass done wet to wet, this stuff might come in handy, it wasn’t overly expensive but I won’t count that into my build cost if I don’t use it.
> 
> 55hrs/$3,600


Peel ply is great for flat sections or in narrow strips at cloth edges, but it will not conform to curves so test it first to get a feel for where you can use it, and then use it in strategic locations.


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## Chris Morejohn

Fritz said:


> View attachment 82642
> View attachment 82638
> View attachment 82640
> View attachment 82636
> View attachment 82630
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 82632
> 
> 
> Monday a big box of Carbon Core was delivered, light green and very dusty.
> 
> Took a square foot and put three layers of 10oz eglass on one side and two and a half on the other, all together this weighed just under a pound. This kinda makes sense, 5.3 oz ft/sq for the core, 10oz glass means 1.1 oz sq/ft and the rest is resin. Seems like 1oz of resin per square foot is a little on the high side. I put a layer of 10oz glasss on each side of a 1/4” sheet of foam to use for my flats and used 36oz of resin per side, so 3/4 oz of resin per sq ft might be closer. So we should be able to rough guess where we are weight wise on a build and the cost in pounds of changes to plan.
> 
> My first impression from the test piece is very light and very stiff, I’m impressed! Before I beat on it with a hammer, I want to put it under compression with a nut/bolt, all of this just for fun of course.
> 
> I bought another 7.5 gallons of resin and a set of 9x12 Edge mounted Bennett trim tabs, except for paint and a poling platform , I might have almost enough supplies to finish the boat. Chris recommends the 12x12 tabs for the slow speed performance, that just seemed so big for such a little boat. I may end up mounting the tabs to the transom and not underneath, I also think I could flip the tab over and, after a bit of cutting and grinding, have a skeg tab like the new HB Eldora does. I’m a bit nervous about installing Chris’s Skeg Keel, it does not look robust enough for a drive on dock so the flipped tab has a little bit of appeal.
> 
> Have decided to stick to the plans on the transom and will make that out of 3/4” core. Lost bit of time to rain this week, hazards of building outside, but I did get my flats nearly done before heading off to work, I’ll be out of town for two weeks, I’m sorry to report.
> 
> I also bought some Peel Ply. This has been mentioned a few times by Chris and my understanding is it has two functions, one is it will wick away the excess resin and blush happens on the Peel Ply (a nylon fabric) not on the glass AND when you peel off the fabric it leaves a textured surface that is ready for the next layer of glass, very little additional prep required. If I can’t get three coats of glass done wet to wet, this stuff might come in handy, it wasn’t overly expensive but I won’t count that into my build cost if I don’t use it.
> 
> 55hrs/$3,600


Fritz,
You don’t need any type of skeg on this design. On the Whipray, Eldora, Waterman et all they can slide but the CONCHFISH design will not ever turning at speed.
The side skeg idea is to catch water aft and redirect it and add little keelets. Glad Don did it but it’s not needed at all.


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## Fritz

Chris Morejohn said:


> Fritz,
> You don’t need any type of skeg on this design. On the Whipray, Eldora, Waterman et all they can slide but the CONCHFISH design will not ever turning at speed.
> The side skeg idea is to catch water aft and redirect it and add little keelets. Glad Don did it but it’s not needed at all.


Thanks Chris! I think I’ll skip mounting the plate upside down then.

I think I could under mount the Bennett Edge tabs like Sethsawyer.

I had a std Lenco actuator and it weighs 2lbs 10oz, the Bennett weighs 3lbs 5oz. My 9x12 Bennett plates weighs just under four and a half pounds each, I have no idea what a similar Lenco weighs. So all up the trim tabs will add about sixteen pounds of weight and all of that at the extreme aft CG. Now I’m wondering how hard it would be to make a composite trim tab plate...


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## Fritz

I have some questions....

First: I weighed my trim tab plates and they weigh 4 1/2 pounds each, kinda heavy it seems to me. This is nine pounds at the extreme aft of the boat, not a big deal probably, but I started thinking about ways to make them lighter and fabbing out of composite was the easy solution others have stumbled on. It occurs to me however, that I might be able to add roughly 60 cubic inches of H80 foam to these particular plates with almost no increase in the form of the plate, I mean they have edges bent up 7/8” already, I could just drop a hardened foam insert into the open part of the plate. This would make the plate even heavier, but if I can count on ..037 lbs of buoyancy per cubic inch from the foam (stole this number 64lbs/cubic foot from Chris) then haven’t I added roughly 2.2 pounds of buoyancy making the trim tabs effectively half as heavy when submerged with no drag penalties?

Okay, I get that knocking 4 pounds off the weight of the boat is pretty small potatoes, inconsequential actually, but is the theory and math correct?

Why go through the trouble of rebuilding in super lightweight material if you can neutralize the buoyancy, like tiny sponsons with no extra drag?

Second: I weigh 155lbs, motor 125lbs, poling platform 20lbs, trim tabs 16lbs, this totals over 300 pounds and all of this weight is at the very back of the boat. So I’ve doubled the weight of the boat and put all of that extra weight all the way at the extreme aft end of the boat, isn’t that going to cause the Conchfish to squat and increase my draft? Will the right fishing partner (plus fuel and gear) on the bow bring the bow down, lift the stern up and decrease my draft? So even though the boat is heavier with two people it actually drafts less....

Last question (for now): Chris has mentioned in prior posts that the super light Waterman did not handle chop the same way as the somewhat heavier Whipray’s. I’m taking this to mean having a bit more mass helps some when running in chop. Is this roughly correct? If the wind kicks up in the afternoon and you’re looking at twenty miles of rough water, would the simple act of filling a cooler full of water and securing it well forward of the CG improve the boats ride (no sensible passenger would ever ride on the bow in crappy conditions for twenty miles)? I get that this will come at the price of efficiency because I’ve made the boat heavier, but we sacrifice efficiency for comfort all the time. Decades of running skiffs and it’s never occurred to me to test this.


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## Guest

@Fritz, way overthinking... get some sleep buddy

Build it light to Chris’ specs and you will be fine. Trim tabs, battery, fuel, motor, rigging, hardware are all gonna add some weight in turn softening the ride a little. Tuck the tabs up under the hull like @Sethsawyer did and that will mostly take care of that little added weight penalty. If you are putting in a rear deck or stern lockers your weight won’t be full stern on the boat when running you will be forward of the stern by a couple ft at least. You will be fine!


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## Fritz

Thanks Boatbrains, you’re probably right.

That said, I used to have a 17’ HPXV, that was a light boat with a heavy motor (369lb F90) and when I poled from the tower alone the squat was tremendous, without a counterbalance that skiff easily drafted an inch or two more and the bow exposed the chine and I got hull slap, well, more of a gurgle, that skiff was great, but not for a person that fishes alone from the back.

But it occurs to me, I weighed 170 back then...


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## Guest

Make a ballast tank in the bow. You can pump it full and drain when not needed. There is a lot of wasted/unusable space up there where this can be done and no need to carry a cooler full of water. And because it won’t hold gas, it can be part of the hull skin!


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## Fritz

Boatbrains said:


> Make a ballast tank in the bow. You can pump it full and drain when not needed. There is a lot of wasted/unusable space up there where this can be done and no need to carry a cooler full of water. And because it won’t hold gas, it can be part of the hull skin!


This is exactly what I was thinking! Which means we both might be crazy...

I was thinking of gravity in/out however, no pumps required, but able to easily put a hundred pounds way forward, but only when I want. A simple through hull and sit on the bow until five or twelve gallons fill the very low mounted tank, then just open the valve and run the water out if it’s a smooth ride home or keep the mass up front if Florida Bay has turned to crap (as it often does) for the long ride home (if sometimes having a heavier boat is an advantage).

And if the idea is crap, easy to pull through hull, glass over the hole and fill that tank with foam. I needed a false floor under the bow anyway.


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## Smackdaddy53

You’re fretting over the weight of trim tabs but want to pump water in the hull? I understand you wanting the hull to sit level but I really doubt it will be an issue if you build it and rig it according to Chris’ specs.


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## Sethsawyer

Trolling motor and one or two deep cycle batteries in the front hatch will balance you right out, and if you don’t feel like poling you can run the trolling motor.


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## Fritz

I’m back. Tomorrow I hope I can get her foamed up.

61hrs/$3,600


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## Fritz

Quick question... how do YOU get Gorilla glue off your fingers?

I’m hoping the consensus is not ‘sandpaper’ or ‘I like to use a razor blade.’


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## Guest

Acetone when it’s still wet.


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## Guest

Easier to wear gloves and keep it off though


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## Backcountry 16

Fritz said:


> Quick question... how do YOU get Gorilla glue off your fingers?
> 
> I’m hoping the consensus is not ‘sandpaper’ or ‘I like to use a razor blade.’


Time.


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## seapro17sv

Backcountry 16 said:


> Time.


You don't! It's permanent! No doubt the nastiest stuff I've ever gotten on my hands. I won't go within ten feet of a bottle without gloves.


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## 17376

Actually there is a very easy way to get it off.. wear some nitrile gloves for about a half hour or longer if you’re doing something.. moisture from your skin pushes it right off.


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## DuckNut

Put 3 layers of gloves on and peel off as the mess becomes a nuisance.


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## Fritz

Want to hear something funny? I thought i’d Have this thing foamed up in a day. I’m pretty sure it will take more then two now. Part of the problem is I foolishly cut two sheets of foam into inch and a half strips, way smaller then necessary for much of the work. Live and learn.


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## bryson

Fritz said:


> Want to hear something funny? I thought i’d Have this thing foamed up in a day. I’m pretty sure it will take more then two now. Part of the problem is I foolishly cut two sheets of foam into inch and a half strips, way smaller then necessary for much of the work. Live and learn.


Don't feel bad. I cut four sheets into strips. 

Completely forgot about all of the areas that didn't really need strips, like the transom and the majority of the back 1/3 of the boat. Now I'm using strips everywhere I can, but I'm pretty sure I'll still have a lot left over that I'll have to incorporate into the rest of the skiff.


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## Sublime

@Fritz Yeah you are way overthinking this. I'm 6'-5", 230 pounds and one of my buddies I used to take all the time is probably 275 pounds. We were fine in my old BT and the 50 etec was 70 pounds heavier than the 30 I am going with this time.


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## jonny

DuckNut said:


> Put 3 layers of gloves on and peel off as the mess becomes a nuisance.


 BEST tip yet
It’s a fight to get a new pair on sweaty handsLOL


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## Sublime

jonny said:


> BEST tip yet
> It’s a fight to get a new pair on sweaty handsLOL


Yep, I keep a big bottle of cheap baby powder on hand for this purpose.


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## kamakuras

jonny said:


> BEST tip yet
> It’s a fight to get a new pair on sweaty handsLOL


Use flocked gloves.


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## Fritz

More questions...

I need to round all the sharp edges because the fiberglass will not make the bend right? How much?

What about the inside edge of the lower chine where the two flats meet, is the glass going to make that right angle or should I plan on a bit of fairing compound along the edge?

Thanks,

Lost a day yesterday to the rain, looks like rain tomorrow as well, can’t be helped.


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## Guest

1/4”-3/8” radius will do. I would personally “fillet” the inside corners also. Better to have a little putty than an air void!!!


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## Sublime

@bryson showed me these contoured sanding blocks. I think I might order some.


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## Fritz

Thanks Boatbrains, that’s what I was thinking, but it helps to hear it from the wise.

Sublime those look handy, I might have to get me some.


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## Guest

Do it!


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## Guest

https://www.googleadservices.com/pa...wjRk7CLrt_jAhWST98KHRxkBkkQwg96BAgLEBI&adurl=
This is also nice for those big flat areas when fairing. Will allow you to follow the contours cleanly!


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## Sublime

@Boatbrains sure is good at making me spend money.


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## seapro17sv

Boatbrains said:


> https://www.googleadservices.com/pa...wjRk7CLrt_jAhWST98KHRxkBkkQwg96BAgLEBI&adurl=
> This is also nice for those big flat areas when fairing. Will allow you to follow the contours cleanly!


The Dura blocks are excellent, and they come in all different lengths. Just need to buy some rolls of sticky back paper. Definitely you'll want fillets on the inside corners, or you'll never get the glass to lay in there without air pockets.


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## sidelock

seapro17sv said:


> The Dura blocks are excellent, and they come in all different lengths. Just need to buy some rolls of sticky back paper. Definitely you'll want fillets on the inside corners, or you'll never get the glass to lay in there without air pockets.


What's the smallest fillets radius can you use for laying 10 oz cloth ?


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## kamakuras

Fritz said:


> More questions...
> 
> I need to round all the sharp edges because the fiberglass will not make the bend right? How much?
> 
> What about the inside edge of the lower chine where the two flats meet, is the glass going to make that right angle or should I plan on a bit of fairing compound along the edge?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Lost a day yesterday to the rain, looks like rain tomorrow as well, can’t be helped.


You need round all those edges to 3/8”. Your transom corners more so depending how you want it to look. Your two inside radius need a putty fillet for the glass to go over. Glass fiber is stiff and will not make a 90 well. Make a putty of 3 parts glass spheres and 1 part cabosil with your epoxy the consistency of peanut butter. Don’t make too much at once or it will exotherm and kick too fast. Scoop it into a gallon freezer bag, clip the corner and run a 1/2” or so bead all the around your chines. Just like icing a cake. Then come back with a large tongue depressor or fillet tool to make the radius. Clean your tool as you go everything few feet. You can reuse the excess putty as you go in another bag.


----------



## sjrobin

Fritz said:


> I have some questions....
> 
> First: I weighed my trim tab plates and they weigh 4 1/2 pounds each, kinda heavy it seems to me. This is nine pounds at the extreme aft of the boat, not a big deal probably, but I started thinking about ways to make them lighter and fabbing out of composite was the easy solution others have stumbled on. It occurs to me however, that I might be able to add roughly 60 cubic inches of H80 foam to these particular plates with almost no increase in the form of the plate, I mean they have edges bent up 7/8” already, I could just drop a hardened foam insert into the open part of the plate. This would make the plate even heavier, but if I can count on ..037 lbs of buoyancy per cubic inch from the foam (stole this number 64lbs/cubic foot from Chris) then haven’t I added roughly 2.2 pounds of buoyancy making the trim tabs effectively half as heavy when submerged with no drag penalties?
> 
> Okay, I get that knocking 4 pounds off the weight of the boat is pretty small potatoes, inconsequential actually, but is the theory and math correct?
> 
> Why go through the trouble of rebuilding in super lightweight material if you can neutralize the buoyancy, like tiny sponsons with no extra drag?
> 
> Second: I weigh 155lbs, motor 125lbs, poling platform 20lbs, trim tabs 16lbs, this totals over 300 pounds and all of this weight is at the very back of the boat. So I’ve doubled the weight of the boat and put all of that extra weight all the way at the extreme aft end of the boat, isn’t that going to cause the Conchfish to squat and increase my draft? Will the right fishing partner (plus fuel and gear) on the bow bring the bow down, lift the stern up and decrease my draft? So even though the boat is heavier with two people it actually drafts less....
> 
> Last question (for now): Chris has mentioned in prior posts that the super light Waterman did not handle chop the same way as the somewhat heavier Whipray’s. I’m taking this to mean having a bit more mass helps some when running in chop. Is this roughly correct? If the wind kicks up in the afternoon and you’re looking at twenty miles of rough water, would the simple act of filling a cooler full of water and securing it well forward of the CG improve the boats ride (no sensible passenger would ever ride on the bow in crappy conditions for twenty miles)? I get that this will come at the price of efficiency because I’ve made the boat heavier, but we sacrifice efficiency for comfort all the time. Decades of running skiffs and it’s never occurred to me to test this.


A few of the composite companies make a carbon fiber foam sandwich plate that can be used to replace the stainless steel trim tab plates. I may try it later this year if I can get the parts I need. Also if you add a cavitation plate the Shaw Wing top plate can be made of carbon fiber epoxy plate and save a pound. I asked Kevin Shaw if he would make a lighter composite plate but he was too busy/not his primary business. You are correct in paying attention to and saving weight in your build with anything you add to the skiff, dyneema bow line, carbon clips.... As an example, the stainless steel bow eye can be replaced with a dyneema shackle that is stronger than the steel eye. Use the same reinforcement in the build and then drill a 1/2 inch hole, taper and smooth the edges for the replaceable dyneema shackle. Forward baffled fuel cell is the best ballast. It serves dual purpose.


----------



## Guest

You can make your own flat sanding board also. Use a piece of high density foam like pool floats are made of or denser and viola! Just not as easy as waiting for the fedex/ups guy to drop off at the door!


----------



## 17376

Always waiting for the damn FEDEX guy to show up!


----------



## Indoman

Other than very minimal weight savings and “gee whiz” factor, what’s the benefit of the Dyneema shackle vs the steel eye? Even if it’s stronger then steel, both would pull through the fiberglass before they would fail, no? 

I actually kinda like the idea...but all I can think of is as the shackle is moved around over time, the hole enlarges and water leaks in.


----------



## Fritz

Maybe one more day of foaming and on to the next step.

The Gorilla glue is wonderful stuff, makes all kinds of repairs possible... and after about three days will begin to wear off your fingers.

I’ve got enough strips left from four sheets of foam to finish the hull.


----------



## Guest

Looks great!


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## sjrobin

Pi


Indoman said:


> Other than very minimal weight savings and “gee whiz” factor, what’s the benefit of the Dyneema shackle vs the steel eye? Even if it’s stronger then steel, both would pull through the fiberglass before they would fail, no?
> 
> I actually kinda like the idea...but all I can think of is as the shackle is moved around over time, the hole enlarges and water leaks in.


Pics of Dyneema shackle 3/16" 5400 lbs, replaceable, and will not damage the fiberglass/carbon Innegra hole in the bow. The Fulton F2 winch is max rated at 1600 lbs. The winch hook will wear the dyneema over time but the shackle can be replaced


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## sjrobin

More dyneema shackles. Stake out pole. Poling platform.


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## DuckNut

Boatbrains said:


> https://www.googleadservices.com/pa...wjRk7CLrt_jAhWST98KHRxkBkkQwg96BAgLEBI&adurl=
> This is also nice for those big flat areas when fairing. Will allow you to follow the contours cleanly!


Those are good but these are the cats azz
Www.flexisander.com or flexicat tools


----------



## Guest

DuckNut said:


> Those are good but these are the cats azz
> Www.flexisander.com or flexicat tools


Yes, and they know it!$$$


----------



## Fritz

Steve I love where your head is at with the Dyneema shackle. That said, the weight saving will be in the very few ounce range and importantly on the wrong end of the CG. The downside is not knowing how the dyneema will hold up to UV and the fraying of a trailer hook, and it might be a huge PIA replacing a frayed shackle while having one fail could be catastrophic.

I will compromise and not install any U bolts on the transom.

I still think there are easy pounds to be saved with the trim tabs. If you foam cored a carbon tab it could actually contribute to flotation, the net difference could be several percentage points in total weight... which translates into tiny fractions of an inch in draft...

And you’re absolutely correct about putting the fuel as far forward as possible, but it seem inelegant to me to tanker fuel you don’t need just to balance the boat, and if you do need the fuel, by the end of the day your boat is out of balance. 

Most of this is just fun stuff to think about on a rainy day.


----------



## RCravey

There is a little toggle button up top on the Flexisander page (that DuckNut referenced above) to get USD. I think even the more spendy ones are around $300......still not cheap but may be worth it!


----------



## RogueTribe

Long time lurker on all your CF builds. Great work by all. Wondering the dimension of your large panel from the stern forward to where you started planking? I am thinking to do a cedar build and measuring my options...


----------



## Sublime

RogueTribe said:


> Long time lurker on all your CF builds. Great work by all. Wondering the dimension of your large panel from the stern forward to where you started planking? I am thinking to do a cedar build and measuring my options...


If I understand your question, you’re seeing where some guys use a single piece of foam on the bottom near the stern? That panel will be between 45 and 48 inches wide and the stations are 18 inches apart. So if you went to station 3 or 4 it would be 54 or 72 inches long.


----------



## DuckNut

Boatbrains said:


> Yes, and they know it!$$$


When one demands perfection...


----------



## RogueTribe

Sublime said:


> If I understand your question, you’re seeing where some guys use a single piece of foam on the bottom near the stern? That panel will be between 45 and 48 inches wide and the stations are 18 inches apart. So if you went to station 3 or 4 it would be 54 or 72 inches long.


Exactly, yes I have my station patterns traced and cut. I've had a little discussion w CMj about adding another chine with flats instead of the rounded bow allowing more planking towards the front. Thanks for the response! Where is yours? I think I am following it on IG...?


----------



## Fritz

The last bit of foam is ready to go into place... and now I’m thinking about rough shaping the foam, plus rounding all the corners, filling all the holes with fairing compound plus a bead on all the inside angles, then a coat of epoxy on the whole thing. 

Sound about right?


----------



## Sublime

Sounds good. You'll have to decide if you will coat it with epoxy and let it dry or roll right into your glassing. If you let it dry, you'll have to deal with the blushing. I'll probably do a coat of epoxy and let it dry to stiffen things up a bit. I'm afraid of all the weight of glass and resin making my foam sag some in between stations. But I'm a worrier.


----------



## Guest

If you just let the epoxy kick but not fully cure there is no worry about blush. It will still be a little tacky when you start laying your glass.


----------



## Pole Position

Boatbrains said:


> If you just let the epoxy kick but not fully cure there is no worry about blush. It will still be a little tacky when you start laying your glass.


I know this has been referenced before, but I cant remember the answer.... is there any reason not to follow the 1st layer of glass w/ the 2nd, and then 3rd while each layer is still tacky?. Is there any benefit by doing it this way? ( assuming it is an acceptable method )


----------



## Sublime

Pole Position said:


> I know this has been referenced before, but I cant remember the answer.... is there any reason not to follow the 1st layer of glass w/ the 2nd, and then 3rd while each layer is still tacky?. Is there any benefit by doing it this way? ( assuming it is an acceptable method )


No, I think that is the preferred way if you have some help. The benefit is no doubts of an absolute chemical bond between each layer.


----------



## Guest

Go for it! I try to lay all my glass wet on wet. If it’s tacky the blush hasn’t occurred and you will get a chemical bond and a solid/one piece resin matrix which is preferred. The beauty of epoxy is it’s secondary bonding strength making multiple single layer lay ups possible while still creating a strong laminate.


----------



## Guest

And if using the 10oz like Chris specs with an added set of hands, a wet on wet lay up can easily be done! Remember to cut all your cloth and roll up in the same direction your going to us it and mark each piece. Dry fit your material and put guide marks on the foam and cloth with a sharpie to aid in lining the cloth up as you un roll it.


----------



## Sublime

Ima just going to buy @Boatbrains a southwest ticket when I'm ready to glass.


----------



## bryson

Sweet! You're where I hope to be this weekend. My plan is to sand the foam, then coat with neat resin, then (before the neat coat cures) fill gaps and make fillets with putty.

I'm going to sand the putty, so it needs to be cured, and if it's cured then I'll need to clean off the blush. Once the hull is smoothed out well enough to where I feel like I won't have any issues laying glass, then I'll lay my glass down the way @Boatbrains described, so you get a good primary bond between layers.


----------



## Fritz

My plan was to try and put all three layers of glass on at the same time and just the way @Boatbrains describes, but I did not realize I could integrate the coat of neat epoxy into the glassing process. Sounds like that saves a step.

The serious fairing happens on top of the fiberglass, correct?


----------



## Guest

Here is a tip and how I do large wet on wet layups...
(1) get several cheap walmart carwash/mop buckets, usually $2 ea
(2) have all material cut and marked with guide marks in glass and foam rolled up and on a folding table at stern of boat
(3) calculate resin needed per side per layer, this is how much resin you will mix each batch... last two batches will take slightly less. 
(4) I like to have 3 people for a big layup but can do with two, mix first batch of resin and divide into two buckets, two of you start wetting out the foam surface and one begin applying the glass, once the first layer is rolled out this person breaks away and starts mixing the second batch of resin while the other two finish wetting out and squeegee/roll the air out. Now repeat the process on the other side and subsequent layers of the laminate. 

The trick to a wet on wet layup is to get the resin out of the pot as quickly and neatly as possible! You can squeegee it around on the foam/glass but the longer it’s in the pot the faster and hotter it’s gonna kick off! I like to use the cigar style rollers, they don’t waste resin or make the mess that the roller over frame rollers make and cleaning the handle/frame is a breeze!


----------



## Guest

Fritz said:


> My plan was to try and put all three layers of glass on at the same time and just the way @Boatbrains describes, but I did not realize I could integrate the coat of neat epoxy into the glassing process. Sounds like that saves a step.
> 
> The serious fairing happens on top of the fiberglass, correct?


Shape the foam/fair the glass

Check you foam with a string line before glassing and shim any sags from underneath. I know this is gonna be difficult but get creative


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## Guest

With the 10oz cloth, a gallon of resin will wet out between 6 & 7 sq yds of material. When going wet on wet the second and third layers won’t take quite as much.


----------



## kamakuras

If you are using slow hardener with your epoxy blush is almost non-existent. Medium is another story. The problem with letting it get tacky is your glass is going to want to stick to it which makes getting wrinkles out and repositioning your glass how you want it a pain. What I did and it worked for me is this:
Divide your skiff into quarters plus transom. You will have 5 pieces of glass per layer. Your overlap between layers does not have to be big. Chris says 1/2" is plenty, I did more like an inch. Roll up your four pieces that go onto the hull. Make sure to mark them with tape (piece location, direction to unroll). Use a light nap epoxy compatible roller. I use Glasskoter. Start with the transom. Wet out foam with the roller. Really wet it out the stuff is thirsty. Glass over. Then for your hull pieces start on one side at the back. Wet out a workable area with roller. Set your roll of glass down and unroll that area and wet out the glass. On the flat areas I use a 6" Bondo spreader. This spreads around resin and helps keep you from using way too much and is fast. In tight small areas I use a chip brush. After you do the section, take your roller and wet out the next few feet of foam. Unroll your glass over that section and wet out and on you go. Make sure to stagger your joints on different layers. If you can do all three at once you are awesome. I couldn't. But if you do layers within 12-24hrs there is no need to worry about blush or sanding between layers per everything I have read. Your next two layers will use a lot less resin than the first. If you do let the resin fully cure between layers you will have to clean the hull. I use vinegar at Chris' suggestion. VERY lightly sand with some 80grit, then clean again. Where your joints are you will have to sand those stray fibers down and level out or you will have air bubbles there. Right before you glass you can trowel a small thin layer of putty over the joints very lightly to help this from happening as well. Don't let it cure just go right to work.
Disclaimer:::Advice from amateur. Follow at your own peril.


----------



## Pole Position

I reckon my question is this....if you get an air pocket / epoxy starved area between the epoxy and 1st layer of glass, or between the 2nd and 3rd layer, will that screw up the following layer, and if so, is it easily fixable ?

Sorry for the dumb-ass questios...I'm sure it will come as a shock that Ive never layed down glass before.


----------



## Sublime

PPE question. Are you guys using respirators? My build is in my garage. I have a large box fan I'll set up by one garage door (blowing out) , then I will have a fan set up in a window at the opposite end of the garage to draw some air in. I will also set up a pedestal fan in the side entry door at an opposite corner. I should have a good air flow with all that. I don't mind a respirator, but it is going to be hot and my glasses fog etc.


----------



## Guest

Lay it down without getting an air pocket. Don’t be too concerned with using as little resin as possible, get it wet and squeegee the resin around, lay on the next layer. Don’t pre wet the last layer, use the glass like a sponge. Lay the glass down and use a roller and squeegee to push it into the wet layers, follow up by wetting any remaining dry spots.


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## Guest

Probably should use a respirator but with epoxy there is no styrene to get you high so with all that ventilation you should be fine wither way


----------



## kamakuras

Sublime said:


> PPE question. Are you guys using respirators? My build is in my garage. I have a large box fan I'll set up by one garage door (blowing out) , then I will have a fan set up in a window at the opposite end of the garage to draw some air in. I will also set up a pedestal fan in the side entry door at an opposite corner. I should have a good air flow with all that. I don't mind a respirator, but it is going to be hot and my glasses fog etc.


Yes.


----------



## Guest

Hell, with the big flanges ya’ll are doin for a few hundred bucks more you could bag and infuse!!! HF has a decent vac pump for auto ac and a pressure pot for a catch can! Use spiral wrap around the flange for vacuum and spiral wrap for infusion lines down the length of the skiff in say 4 spots/4 separate resin feeds.


----------



## Pole Position

Fwiw, for those who are interested, I did confirm that Basalt and fiberglass are compatible w/ both epoxy and vinylester


----------



## bryson

Boatbrains said:


> Lay it down without getting an air pocket. Don’t be too concerned with using as little resin as possible, get it wet and squeegee the resin around, lay on the next layer. Don’t pre wet the last layer, use the glass like a sponge. Lay the glass down and use a roller and squeegee to push it into the wet layers, follow up by wetting any remaining dry spots.


I was going to lay the next layer down once the first layer is dry but not fully cured. You're talking about while it's still completely wet? I would be worried about pulling the previous layer around when laying down the next one, or when using the squeegee on the next one.



Boatbrains said:


> Hell, with the big flanges ya’ll are doin for a few hundred bucks more you could bag and infuse!!! HF has a decent vac pump for auto ac and a pressure pot for a catch can! Use spiral wrap around the flange for vacuum and spiral wrap for infusion lines down the length of the skiff in say 4 spots/4 separate resin feeds.


This is super tempting. It would be so much easier to get all of the layers put in place with no resin, then just infuse the whole thing. I've got an AC vacuum pump that would probably work just fine for the job, but I know very little about the rest of the process.


----------



## Guest

The layers won’t move around too much as long as you are reasonably careful. As far as bagging goes the easiest advise I can give is watch some you tube videos. You will put all your layers of glass in dry and work them into corners and stuff using some spray adhesive to lightly hold them in place, then a layer of peel ply, followed by a layer of flow media, resin lines/spiral wrap, then the bag.


----------



## Fritz

Stole idea this from @Sethsawyer , hoping I can pull it off.

Not sure how our stations would react to a vacuum bag, mostly that happens in a very well supported mold... wait, what do I know about vacuum bagging... never mind.

Meanwhile it seems I keep underestimating how much time the next step will take, I need to double my first guess, then add three days.


----------



## Guest

If you seal your bag to the foam, it will not pull down vacuum on anything but the outer skin! You have to make sure all gaps are sealed so you don’t lose vacuum through the foam though.


----------



## Bob

bryson said:


> I was going to lay the next layer down once the first layer is dry but not fully cured. You're talking about while it's still completely wet? I would be worried about pulling the previous layer around when laying down the next one, or when using the squeegee on the next one.
> 
> This is super tempting. It would be so much easier to get all of the layers put in place with no resin, then just infuse the whole thing. I've got an AC vacuum pump that would probably work just fine for the job, but I know very little about the rest of the process.


Using infusion on the outside laminate is going to be nearly impossible without a leak proof barrier on the unfinished inside hull surface (since it's just foam and no mold surface to seal against like a normal infusion process). 

However, using infusion on the inside of the hull is possible since the outside will be fully sealed and capable of pulling a vacuum. Like Boatbrains mentioned, if an outside flange is wide enough then there should be enough room for vacuum lines around the perimeter.


----------



## Guest

Fritz said:


> View attachment 86272
> 
> 
> Stole idea this from @Sethsawyer , hoping I can pull it off.
> 
> Not sure how our stations would react to a vacuum bag, mostly that happens in a very well supported mold... wait, what do I know about vacuum bagging... never mind.
> 
> Meanwhile it seems I keep underestimating how much time the next step will take, I need to double my first guess, then add three days.


Wish I could do this on my production skiff, but somebody already has it copyrighted! But you guys are safe with the home builds!


----------



## Guest

Bob said:


> Using infusion on the outside laminate is going to be nearly impossible without a leak proof barrier on the unfinished inside hull surface (since it's just foam and no mold surface to seal against like a normal infusion process).
> 
> However, using infusion on the inside of the hull is possible since the outside will be fully sealed and capable of pulling a vacuum. Like Boatbrains mentioned, if an outside flange is wide enough then there should be enough room for vacuum lines around the perimeter.


That’s why it is so important to seal all the gaps with thickened resin before laying down the glass. The foam won’t leak vacuum so provided the gaps are filled and a good bag seal is achieved around the perimeter, presto! I will be bagging my next one exactly like I am describing!


----------



## kamakuras

bryson said:


> I was going to lay the next layer down once the first layer is dry but not fully cured. You're talking about while it's still completely wet? I would be worried about pulling the previous layer around when laying down the next one, or when using the squeegee on the next one.
> 
> 
> 
> This is super tempting. It would be so much easier to get all of the layers put in place with no resin, then just infuse the whole thing. I've got an AC vacuum pump that would probably work just fine for the job, but I know very little about the rest of the process.


Like Boatbrains said they won’t really move. I did my interior glass wet on wet. It will actually give you the strongest bond too. I would also say it uses less resin doing it that way.


----------



## bryson

kamakuras said:


> Like Boatbrains said they won’t really move. I did my interior glass wet on wet. It will actually give you the strongest bond too. I would also say it uses less resin doing it that way.


That's good to know. I think you get an equally strong bond as long as the previous layer isn't fully cured, but I'm not sure. The resin usage has been a big concern for me, though. I have a huge roll of 6oz cloth, so I'll be doing 5 layers of 6oz rather than 3 of 10oz, so I've got even more opportunities to mess up and make too rich of a layup. Even if I can just do 2 at a time, that would help a lot.

What is everyone's thought on laying down multiple layers of dry cloth, then wetting them out at the same time? Seems like the easiest way to do it (you could even tape them all in place), but I would worry about getting a good bond between the bottom layer of cloth and the foam.


----------



## Troy_time

bryson said:


> That's good to know. I think you get an equally strong bond as long as the previous layer isn't fully cured, but I'm not sure. The resin usage has been a big concern for me, though. I have a huge roll of 6oz cloth, so I'll be doing 5 layers of 6oz rather than 3 of 10oz, so I've got even more opportunities to mess up and make too rich of a layup. Even if I can just do 2 at a time, that would help a lot.
> 
> What is everyone's thought on laying down multiple layers of dry cloth, then wetting them out at the same time? Seems like the easiest way to do it (you could even tape them all in place), but I would worry about getting a good bond between the bottom layer of cloth and the foam.


Would also like to know too whether it is worth it or possible to wet over 2 or 3 layers of dry glass


----------



## Guest

Attempting to lay multiple layers of glass then wet out will be difficult to do. You will be far better off doing one at a time! With the 6oz cloth mentioned it would be possible but still more squeegeeing to get the resin into the material than I would want to fool with. Get it one wet and move that resin to the dry areas as needed. Run over it with a fin roller or squeegee working from inside out and you should end up with a nice lay up that isn’t resin rich.


----------



## Sethsawyer

bryson said:


> That's good to know. I think you get an equally strong bond as long as the previous layer isn't fully cured, but I'm not sure. The resin usage has been a big concern for me, though. I have a huge roll of 6oz cloth, so I'll be doing 5 layers of 6oz rather than 3 of 10oz, so I've got even more opportunities to mess up and make too rich of a layup. Even if I can just do 2 at a time, that would help a lot.
> 
> What is everyone's thought on laying down multiple layers of dry cloth, then wetting them out at the same time? Seems like the easiest way to do it (you could even tape them all in place), but I would worry about getting a good bond between the bottom layer of cloth and the foam.


Don’t do two layers at a time do one layer at a time layup the next one green. It is terrifying trying to do more than one layer at a time unless you have a team of helpers. Epoxy gets sticky and the second layer could get all stuck in the mess, and won’t lay down right, and you now have to sand/chisel off this wrinkly mess before you can continue. According to west systems research one layer at a time creates the lightest wet layup. Wet on wet might be a little stronger and a lot faster but it shouldn’t be lighter. You will know when an area needs to be squeegees or rolled onto dry glass. It will be shinny. good wet out glass has a nice matte sheen.


----------



## Guest

Seth, wet on wet will take a good bit less resin so it os lighter and stronger! You are correct about laying down multiple layers and then attempting to wet them out.


----------



## Fritz

It’s looking more like a Conchfish every day, I tell myself, less bad.

Spent the day fairing and cursing the idiot who thought all those toothpicks were a good idea. I carefully pulled every screw from the boat yesterday, and found five more today that I missed. Hopefully I’ve got them all out now...

How smooth does this coat of fairing need to be? I’m thinking three layers of ten ounce will cover a few flaws.

I’m thinking I should sand in a flat spot where the bow eye goes, like @kamakuras did. Thoughts?

Lastly @Boatbrains now what do I do with this 30” sanding block? Wrap three pieces of sand paper around it... ?


hull























90 hrs/$3,660


----------



## Guest

Fritz, go online and order up some self adhesive/ psa longboard paper for your block! You can get it without the glue but you will need to order a can of low strength spray adhesive to get it to stick!

Also, any high spots before glassing are just gonna get higher after glassing! Let the putty kick and run over it with some 50-80grit to make sure you don’t have any highs!


----------



## Guest

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai...wifotzivefjAhUvn-AKHfzwCfoQwg96BAgMEAs&adurl=


----------



## Sethsawyer

Boatbrains said:


> Fritz, go online and order up some self adhesive/ psa longboard paper for your block! You can get it without the glue but you will need to order a can of low strength spray adhesive to get it to stick!
> 
> Also, any high spots before glassing are just gonna get higher after glassing! Let the putty kick and run over it with some 50-80grit to make sure you don’t have any highs!





Fritz said:


> It’s looking more like a Conchfish every day, I tell myself, less bad.
> 
> Spent the day fairing and cursing the idiot who thought all those toothpicks were a good idea. I carefully pulled every screw from the boat yesterday, and found five more today that I missed. Hopefully I’ve got them all out now...
> 
> How smooth does this coat of fairing need to be? I’m thinking three layers of ten ounce will cover a few flaws.
> 
> I’m thinking I should sand in a flat spot where the bow eye goes, like @kamakuras did. Thoughts?
> 
> Lastly @Boatbrains now what do I do with this 30” sanding block? Wrap three pieces of sand paper around it... ?
> 
> 
> hull
> View attachment 86422
> View attachment 86424
> View attachment 86426
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 90 hrs/$3,660


Looking great I used an random orbital sander to knock all the high spots down. Really fast and only $35ish at HF. 60 grit


----------



## Pole Position

Boatbrains said:


> https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai...wifotzivefjAhUvn-AKHfzwCfoQwg96BAgMEAs&adurl=


I'm not sure this boatbuilding experience isnt a way to draw even w/ our wives on the number of Amazon packages I see coming in most every day.


----------



## Fritz

Pole Position said:


> I'm not sure this boatbuilding experience isnt a way to draw even w/ our wives on the number of Amazon packages I see coming in most every day.


This!

Well, I was protected from matrimony by my looks and personality, but otherwise spot on.


----------



## kamakuras

Yeah I’m the idiot with the toothpicks. They were a great help to me just snapped them off.
If you want the bow eye indent like mine now is the time to rough it out. You will get it all pretty with fairing compound after you glass.
You are going to make friends at a local car body supply shop or glass shop. There is a kit made by dura block with a bunch of different shapes blocks you should just go ahead and buy in addition to the one you have. Get a can of contact glue. Get a roll of adhesive paper in 40, 60, 80 and 120 for your blocks. At this point just sand it to 80 then glass.


----------



## kamakuras

https://www.eastwood.com/7-piece-sa...MI64LLqOrn4wIVAZ-fCh0mDQ9HEAQYAiABEgI-dfD_BwE

https://www.finishingfocus.com/prod...anding-rolls?variant=27643114753&currency=USD


----------



## Patrick Burton

Fritz, do you have a link to which carbon core foam you ordered? I see a few options on the site and I'm not exactly sure what im looking at.


----------



## Pole Position

PE sheets:

http://www.carbon-core.com/product/pe-structural-foam-sheets/

PVC sheets

http://www.carbon-core.com/product/pvc-structural-foam-sheets/


----------



## Pole Position

FWIW, the sales rep recommended the PVC sheets for this application, though he said either would work. Quite frankly, I have no clue of the difference.....


----------



## Patrick Burton

Thanks, Pole Position


----------



## Backcountry 16

Fritz said:


> It’s looking more like a Conchfish every day, I tell myself, less bad.
> 
> Spent the day fairing and cursing the idiot who thought all those toothpicks were a good idea. I carefully pulled every screw from the boat yesterday, and found five more today that I missed. Hopefully I’ve got them all out now...
> 
> How smooth does this coat of fairing need to be? I’m thinking three layers of ten ounce will cover a few flaws.
> 
> I’m thinking I should sand in a flat spot where the bow eye goes, like @kamakuras did. Thoughts?
> 
> Lastly @Boatbrains now what do I do with this 30” sanding block? Wrap three pieces of sand paper around it... ?
> 
> 
> hull
> View attachment 86422
> View attachment 86424
> View attachment 86426
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 90 hrs/$3,660


Looking good Fritz


----------



## Backcountry 16

Fritz said:


> It’s looking more like a Conchfish every day, I tell myself, less bad.
> 
> Spent the day fairing and cursing the idiot who thought all those toothpicks were a good idea. I carefully pulled every screw from the boat yesterday, and found five more today that I missed. Hopefully I’ve got them all out now...
> 
> How smooth does this coat of fairing need to be? I’m thinking three layers of ten ounce will cover a few flaws.
> 
> I’m thinking I should sand in a flat spot where the bow eye goes, like @kamakuras did. Thoughts?
> 
> Lastly @Boatbrains now what do I do with this 30” sanding block? Wrap three pieces of sand paper around it... ?
> 
> 
> hull
> View attachment 86422
> View attachment 86424
> View attachment 86426
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 90 hrs/$3,660


Looking good Fritz


----------



## Sublime

I am using toothpicks also. I am probably getting 95% of them out without breaking them.


----------



## DuckNut

Guys,

It seems like an area of concern is potential sagging of the foam between the stations.

If this is the case what about using the plastic film used to winterize boats? The stuff is put on, heated by flame and shrinks to become very taut. It is also very durable and is cheap.

I think this is what that one guy was trying to accomplish by using the expanding foam between stations.

I think it would provide enough support that sagging would become a memory. If it needed a little tweeking you could always shim it a bit.


----------



## bryson

I have had no issues at all with sagging. The only issue I ever see is if you tighten the screws too tight that hold the strip to the station. It can try to flatten the strip against the station, when it's really only supposed to rest against the leading or trailing edge.


----------



## Fritz

I glassed her up today, three layers of ten ounce and about four gallons of resin. It’s hard to guess exactly how much of the resin went on the boat and how much ended up on everything else, waste was not inconsequential.

I’m generally pleased with the end result though it did not go exactly as I envisioned. There are definitely a few bubbles that will need repair, I will and it’s okay, I can fix them.

Some lessons learned: I had 85% of my resin pre measured, this was a huge help. I used an accurate kitchen scale to fill blue & red cups and then figured how much waste in each cup after dumping so I could adjust to get 2:1. Using the pumps at the end was brutal.

I have a love/hate relationship with the disposable suit I bought (five for $25). Imagine wearing a large plastic bag, this almost killed me (not literally). That said, I went to ditch the suit then noticed it was completely covered with resin, I mean I was sticking to myself annoyingly towards the end. The only resin that reached me was at the wrists, above the gloves, so the suit is essential, miserable, but essential.

The USComposites slow resin is really impressive stuff, to my small mind at least, it’s got a very long working window, four to five hours, by the time I was doing the third layer the boat was fairly warm to the touch. Nothing surprising about this, but I was impressed and annoyed, this speeding up of the resin really made the last layer a chore and I’m pretty sure most of my mistakes will be in the last layer. In hindsight, I’m not positive going for all three at once was the wisest move, that said, it feels really good having all three down and done wet to wet.

I used a quart and a half bucket and a kitchen spatula to mix the resin and it was light years easier then mixing with a tongue depressor or wooden stick. The first 85% of resin was super easy to mix, but the pumps at the end were a pain.

I changed gloves about thirty times and remembered Sublimes tip about talcum powder, without getting hyperbolic this was a huge help, and, I imagine, in under a few years there will be hardly a trace left of the talcum in my garage.

I used three colors on each layer and marked first the boat, then each layer so I could tell where the edges should be, and I targeted two inches of overlap. This saved me! After the first layer I found it very difficult to guess where the edges were, having a color coded line (black, then red, then blue) was extremely helpful. Of course now my boat looks like a really bad graffiti artist on a budget had his way, I’m okay with that.

I wanted to use my Peel Ply and I think it would have helped, but I was completely exhausted at the end. 

I probably ruined a good pair of scissors, but they died valiantly and will not be forgotten. They will however, be replaced, or maybe I can chip all the resin off...

I drank half a gallon of water and still lost four pounds today, that stupid stupid plastic bag suit.

Having the fiberglass on gives me the ability to move the boat, I mean it is nibbling at the peak of hurricane season and I am doing this outside. Hopefully this will not be an issue, but hope is a shit strategy, I prefer hard options.


----------



## trekker

Ive never used that USC slow. Been a few times when I wished I had. 

Good work.


----------



## Guest

Great job Brother!


----------



## trekker

Keep us posted on how long it takes to get a full cure.


----------



## Sublime

Man, you guys are killing it. Good work. 

Question, maybe I missed it, but when did you fill your holes from the screws in?


----------



## Fritz

Sublime said:


> Man, you guys are killing it. Good work.
> 
> Question, maybe I missed it, but when did you fill your holes from the screws in?


Couple days ago. Lesson learned on that is not to sweat over much the tiny low spots, but bumps can’t be tolerated, I mean the smallest gaps and holes completely disappear with the glass, might not even need to fill toothpick holes.


----------



## DuckNut

Most excellent work there Fritz.

This is a major victory you have already conquered.

Now maybe you lit the fire under that @Sublime guy!


----------



## kamakuras

You’re an animal! I could not have done that in a day alone! When I glass I have aluminum pans with acetone in them with some rags to clean my scissors and bubble rollers as I go. Sand and give a good wipe down and you’re on the fairing, the most fun part! Great work.


----------



## jglidden

Way to go man! looks great


----------



## Bob

Distilled vinegar works well for cleaning and soaking *uncured* epoxy coated tools and especially your skin. Vinegar isn't as aggressive as acetone, but it's much safer than having acetone as a carrier for getting epoxy chemicals into your body. I think people that become sensitized to epoxy speed up the process by using solvents like acetone & alcohol to clean resin off of their skin.

Great job on the major milestone!


----------



## RogueTribe

Cheers to you! Props on going beast mode.


----------



## Fritz

Okay, I’m back. I took the day off yesterday, let the glass cure.

Anyway, pulled the cover off and she doesn’t look so bad to me. I poured half a gallon of vinegar and rubbed with a scotch bright pad, then hosed her down.

So the plan is sand the entire boat, but take off only resin, don’t eat into the fiberglass. 

Fix any bubbles.

Start fairing; And fair and sand and fair and sand every day until I get a shape that pleases me, for however many days it takes. My plan is to use USComposites multipurpose fairing compound and mix it stiff like peanut butter... does this sound adequate? (I also have glass bubbles and silica I can add to the fairing mix if required, but I thought basic fairing compound was the stuff for this phase)

After I get a shape I’m happy with what next?

Should I keep sanding to 220 or 320 or 400 and start the priming process?

Should I keep going and paint now?

Or should I flip the boat and start on the inside, coming back at a later date to prime/paint?

Thanks,


----------



## RogueTribe

Now you make the disc sander of death to sand the fairing! Chris said before he could do a large hull in a couple hours with it... me personally would add another layer of resin to fill any weave and level it out even more before the fairing and sanding. Definitely dont want to sand into you cloth but it sounds like w 4 gal of epoxy your probably pretty epoxy rich. Send more photos...


----------



## firecat1981

Anyone have the link to the sander setup CM talked about?


----------



## Guest

@firecat1981, it is easy to make!
Cut a piece of “I like about 3/16” laminate glass” to 9”x11” and mark center. Now use a compass to mark two circles. 1 at 7” the other is a guide at 7 1/8”. Now epoxy a foam backing pad for a 7” grinder/buffer centering in the circle. Using sanding disk adhesive you will glue a full 9”x11” sheet of paper to the pad. Round over the 4 corners a bit to make it safer though. Also, be darn sure to get the backing pad centered and level or you will know it!!!


----------



## Pole Position

firecat1981 said:


> Anyone have the link to the sander setup CM talked about?


https://www.microskiff.com/threads/conchfish-16.51470/page-8


----------



## Bob

Pole Position said:


> https://www.microskiff.com/threads/conchfish-16.51470/page-8


And this Youtube vid by Travis... https://youtu.be

/62jP8ZRiLbs


----------



## DuckNut

Fritz said:


> My plan is to use USComposites multipurpose fairing compound


Verify that this product does not contain talc. 

I went to their website and did not find this product. Verify.


----------



## DuckNut

Bob said:


> And this Youtube vid by Travis... https://youtu.be
> 
> /62jP8ZRiLbs


I love his dust mask.


----------



## kamakuras

There is no real reason to fill the weave with another layer of resin in my opinion. Just cover the whole skiff in your US Composites compound mixed like you said in an even layer with your bondo spreaders just like icing a cake. Have the curved edge side of the spreader down. Like an 1/8” layer all over. Mix your compound and dump out on cut out pieces of cardboard to get it out of the cup. Keep your bondo spreader edges clean as you go. It’s a lot like doing joints in drywall. Then you will sand and come back and fill areas that need it with more compound and sand again until you are satisfied. The last step will be to sharpen your keel and chine edges. You only need to sand down to 80-120 max before primer.


----------



## RogueTribe

Somehow I thought you were going to sand now without filling weave... my bad if I did. I have burned into 6 oz sanding before filling weave or fairing. I epoxy again if I am not fairing so I can fill the weave and sand to scuff the surface for hi-build. I try to straight edge and flashlight the surface and mark the lows. I only skim the highs and try to limit the fairing and sanding. Thick fairing always spider cracks on me.


----------



## kamakuras

RogueTribe said:


> Somehow I thought you were going to sand now without filling weave... my bad if I did. I have burned into 6 oz sanding before filling weave or fairing. I epoxy again if I am not fairing so I can fill the weave and sand to scuff the surface for hi-build. I try to straight edge and flashlight the surface and mark the lows. I only skim the highs and try to limit the fairing and sanding. Thick fairing always spider cracks on me.


Should still very lightly skuff the surface of the glass with some 80 I think before applying compound. I did and so have others I have seen. Is this wrong? Also had zero cracks in my compound, I applied exactly according to Chris’s instructions.


----------



## RogueTribe

kamakuras said:


> Should still very lightly skuff the surface of the glass with some 80 I think before applying compound. I did and so have others I have seen. Is this wrong?


Maybe that's why my fairing cracks lol!


----------



## kamakuras

What were you using? The US Composites stuff can be applied quite thick with no issues. From looking at it it’s a blend of cabosil, glass spheres and some phenolic micro balloons. It is pretty hard curing but goes on smooth without sag. I also used West Systems Ultra Light in some areas in the interior and that did crack and was much softer. Wouldn’t use it again. The surface prep was more for a good bond than anything.


----------



## firecat1981

Boatbrains said:


> @firecat1981, it is easy to make!
> Cut a piece of “I like about 3/16” laminate glass” to 9”x11” and mark center. Now use a compass to mark two circles. 1 at 7” the other is a guide at 7 1/8”. Now epoxy a foam backing pad for a 7” grinder/buffer centering in the circle. Using sanding disk adhesive you will glue a full 9”x11” sheet of paper to the pad. Round over the 4 corners a bit to make it safer though. Also, be darn sure to get the backing pad centered and level or you will know it!!!


Is this really a huge benefit over say a 8" polisher with sanding disks? I mean it's a cool concept, but I think I'd be paranoid over the 9x11 board flying off.


----------



## Guest

It won’t dig in like the rounded edge of a disk will. If built properly it is as safe as any other power tool.


----------



## sjrobin

Bob said:


> And this Youtube vid by Travis... https://youtu.be
> 
> /62jP8ZRiLbs


Travis don't need a 3M dust mask or full face mask with particulate filter cartridges


----------



## Fritz

kamakuras said:


> There is no real reason to fill the weave with another layer of resin in my opinion. Just cover the whole skiff in your US Composites compound mixed like you said in an even layer with your bondo spreaders just like icing a cake. Have the curved edge side of the spreader down. Like an 1/8” layer all over. Mix your compound and dump out on cut out pieces of cardboard to get it out of the cup. Keep your bondo spreader edges clean as you go. It’s a lot like doing joints in drywall. Then you will sand and come back and fill areas that need it with more compound and sand again until you are satisfied. The last step will be to sharpen your keel and chine edges. You only need to sand down to 80-120 max before primer.


Thanks Kamakuras, exactly the clarity I was hoping for!

I forgot about all those edges I ‘softened’ up for the fiberglass, thanks for that reminder as well.

Did you take your hull through primer before flipping? 

I remember that sanding tool of Chris’s, I might make one. I also remember that video of Travis’s and have a new full face mask respirator.


----------



## DuckNut

Go to Home Depot and buy a wallpaper tool. It looks like a 2 foot wide spreader. It will really help with the fairing. Make sure it is the metal blade.


----------



## kamakuras

Fritz said:


> Thanks Kamakuras, exactly the clarity I was hoping for!
> 
> I forgot about all those edges I ‘softened’ up for the fiberglass, thanks for that reminder as well.
> 
> Did you take your hull through primer before flipping?
> 
> I remember that sanding tool of Chris’s, I might make one. I also remember that video of Travis’s and have a new full face mask respirator.


Yes went to primer. Sanded first layer of primer to 120. The filled pin holes and did some more light fairing. Then primed again and brought down to 320 wet sand before flipping. When I do my next build which I am going to paint myself I will flip after primer, install my second piece of transom core and glass in then flip back over and paint before finishing the interior.

When you sharpen your chine edges Chris gave a great tip to hot glue a straight edge along the sides slightly proud of the chine. Then fill with fairing compound. I mixed some milled glass with the compound for this step to make it harder. His way worked really well.


----------



## sjrobin

Check classified's. Selling epoxy carbon fiber plate pieces. would be great for fastener supports in the hull or cap.


----------



## jonny

Boatbrains said:


> @firecat1981, it is easy to make!
> Cut a piece of “I like about 3/16” laminate glass” to 9”x11” and mark center. Now use a compass to mark two circles. 1 at 7” the other is a guide at 7 1/8”. Now epoxy a foam backing pad for a 7” grinder/buffer centering in the circle. Using sanding disk adhesive you will glue a full 9”x11” sheet of paper to the pad. Round over the 4 corners a bit to make it safer though. Also, be darn sure to get the backing pad centered and level or you will know it!!!


If I am allowed to post on this thread. I would like to share my personal experience with this.
This is by far the best way to fair. Especially that first couple of base layers. But I kinda modified mine a bit from Chris’. For the same reason Boatbrains mentioned. But I used the white/brown composite board. Most people use for the deck molds. It is very flat and has bit of flex. So it doesn’t dig in as bad as thick stiff board will. Working “down hill” and not into a curve “uphill”. And keeping any pressure in the center. Also helps with the digging in issue. Basically do not tilt it keep it flat. And it has a lot less mass. If something did go wrong. I made it a full circle. As big as I could with a full sheet of paper. You just lose the hard corners. But the hard corners do help to keep it flat over a circle. So it’s a trade off. It’s safer if you catch a hard edge on something. And I had more confidence to get closer to certain areas. It also helps with being off center. It balances out better than a high RPM rectangle. If you are off a bit you just get that DA action LOL. So you end up with a 9” circle instead of a 9x11. I also just used Velcro on the board. With a Velcro 7” pad that came with my buffer. I highly recommend a variable speed buffer/grinder over a on/off grinder. I was able to easily sand at the low/lowest speed settings. Harbor freight has a good one that took me 5 years to kill for $49. That thing gets moving at some scary serious RPM with a on/off grinder. I just sprayed contact adhesive on the board. And was able to peel and replace several sheets. Without reapplying the adhesive. And just trim the paper with a box cutter. I was able to get to 90% of my boat. In less than a hour. Really saves on the hand sanding. I’m glad Chris shared this with us.

On a side note:
If you have some foam left over. You can make a nice long board any length you want. By glueing them up like a stringer. Then get some of that dustless sand paper/screen on a roll. Tape/hot glue the screen to a flat surface. Then you can true the foam board level. Then glue the sanding screen to the board ends. You really can cover a lot of ground with it. And gets it nice and smooth. Those short 16” boards for auto body work. Do not work well with the long compound curves of a boat hull.


----------



## jonny

Boatbrains said:


> Wish I could do this on my production skiff, but somebody already has it copyrighted! But you guys are safe with the home builds!


Just get another patent for the tiller boat segment. That’s what they did. LOL
Curved transom and recessed tabs have been around a long time.


----------



## Smackdaddy53

jonny said:


> Just get another patent for the tiller boat segment. That’s what they did. LOL
> Curved transom and recessed tabs have been around a long time.


----------



## Fritz

A short update, mostly to reassure that I have not lost enthusiasm for the project. I’m in the ‘wax on, wax off’ phase and likely showing my lack of talent, but my workmanship is every day less bad. Anyway, put the fairing on, take most of it off, put some more on, (lather, rinse, repeat). I’m thinking if I slow down, spend a bit of time getting this right (by ‘right’ I mostly mean less bad) then I’ll end with a better looking hull.

Hat tip to @kamakuras and @DuckNut for their excellent fairing advice, of course I ignored them both at first, made a mess of things, then revisited their thoughts.

I made a couple drain tubes out of 3” fiberglass tape, they are ridiculously easy to make and I’m pleased with the results. It’s really easy to get whatever inside diameter I want and I really like the idea of an old school boat drain plug.

The trim tabs will have positive buoyancy, it can’t be helped, the floats are off the drawing board and being fitted up. Great rainy day stuff.

I bought some braided fiberglass sleeve and I can’t think of any reason why I shouldn’t make my own tiller extension, should be pretty simple (hold my beer, watch this!).

I’m seriously thinking of skipping on rod tubes and having the rods slide into a single box instead, basically 1/4” thin glassed foam, maybe 4” wide and 6” tall running the same way a trio of tubes would along the sides. I’ve always hated trying to get a nine foot fly rod into a one inch hole, why not just have a box that protects the tips, but let’s them rattle a bit? There will be a small weight savings, but mostly just easier to stow a rod. I could do two rods facing forward and two facing aft on each side and it’s unlikely one rod would spend much time bumping another and I would still have the ability to double park if I need more space (how many stinking rods do I need!). How crazy is this idea?

Per Chris’s recommendation, I was going to do a fiberglass plate on the transom, a bit of reinforcement where the motor goes, but @sjrobin accidentally put me onto the idea of a carbon fiber plate instead. The price isn’t that high, maybe $100 for a 12” x 12” piece, and I think it would look cool, plus beef up the area where the motor sits.

I’m watching @Sethsawyer’s deck build very closely, I’m pretty sure that’s how I’ll be doing mine, and I’ll likely be an expert at fairing before mine gets right side up, so no anxiety there. (If Seth’s deck build ‘blows up’ I take it all back and I knew it was a doomed idea from the start!)

Now just waiting for the rain to stop and another bucket of powder to arrive, plus that pesky job, it could be a couple weeks.


----------



## Sethsawyer

Fritz said:


> View attachment 88618
> View attachment 88620
> 
> 
> A short update, mostly to reassure that I have not lost enthusiasm for the project. I’m in the ‘wax on, wax off’ phase and likely showing my lack of talent, but my workmanship is every day less bad. Anyway, put the fairing on, take most of it off, put some more on, (lather, rinse, repeat). I’m thinking if I slow down, spend a bit of time getting this right (by ‘right’ I mostly mean less bad) then I’ll end with a better looking hull.
> 
> Hat tip to @kamakuras and @DuckNut for their excellent fairing advice, of course I ignored them both at first, made a mess of things, then revisited their thoughts.
> 
> I made a couple drain tubes out of 3” fiberglass tape, they are ridiculously easy to make and I’m pleased with the results. It’s really easy to get whatever inside diameter I want and I really like the idea of an old school boat drain plug.
> 
> The trim tabs will have positive buoyancy, it can’t be helped, the floats are off the drawing board and being fitted up. Great rainy day stuff.
> 
> I bought some braided fiberglass sleeve and I can’t think of any reason why I shouldn’t make my own tiller extension, should be pretty simple (hold my beer, watch this!).
> 
> I’m seriously thinking of skipping on rod tubes and having the rods slide into a single box instead, basically 1/4” thin glassed foam, maybe 4” wide and 6” tall running the same way a trio of tubes would along the sides. I’ve always hated trying to get a nine foot fly rod into a one inch hole, why not just have a box that protects the tips, but let’s them rattle a bit? There will be a small weight savings, but mostly just easier to stow a rod. I could do two rods facing forward and two facing aft on each side and it’s unlikely one rod would spend much time bumping another and I would still have the ability to double park if I need more space (how many stinking rods do I need!). How crazy is this idea?
> 
> Per Chris’s recommendation, I was going to do a fiberglass plate on the transom, a bit of reinforcement where the motor goes, but @sjrobin accidentally put me onto the idea of a carbon fiber plate instead. The price isn’t that high, maybe $100 for a 12” x 12” piece, and I think it would look cool, plus beef up the area where the motor sits.
> 
> I’m watching @Sethsawyer’s deck build very closely, I’m pretty sure that’s how I’ll be doing mine, and I’ll likely be an expert at fairing before mine gets right side up, so no anxiety there. (If Seth’s deck build ‘blows up’ I take it all back and I knew it was a doomed idea from the start!)
> 
> Now just waiting for the rain to stop and another bucket of powder to arrive, plus that pesky job, it could be a couple weeks.


Fairing job looks great. 

If you double core (3/4”) Your transom will be 1 1/2” thick a standard drain plug is 1” long so if you want it fit flush to the outside of the hull you need to have 1” hull/ drain plug tube length In the area around the tube. To fix this You could rip a small section of core to 1/4”. If you do not double core just make sure the tube is 1”. Double check the exact length with the plug screwed tight.


----------



## Jred

Fritz said:


> View attachment 88618
> View attachment 88620
> 
> 
> A short update, mostly to reassure that I have not lost enthusiasm for the project. I’m in the ‘wax on, wax off’ phase and likely showing my lack of talent, but my workmanship is every day less bad. Anyway, put the fairing on, take most of it off, put some more on, (lather, rinse, repeat). I’m thinking if I slow down, spend a bit of time getting this right (by ‘right’ I mostly mean less bad) then I’ll end with a better looking hull.
> 
> Hat tip to @kamakuras and @DuckNut for their excellent fairing advice, of course I ignored them both at first, made a mess of things, then revisited their thoughts.
> 
> I made a couple drain tubes out of 3” fiberglass tape, they are ridiculously easy to make and I’m pleased with the results. It’s really easy to get whatever inside diameter I want and I really like the idea of an old school boat drain plug.
> 
> The trim tabs will have positive buoyancy, it can’t be helped, the floats are off the drawing board and being fitted up. Great rainy day stuff.
> 
> I bought some braided fiberglass sleeve and I can’t think of any reason why I shouldn’t make my own tiller extension, should be pretty simple (hold my beer, watch this!).
> 
> I’m seriously thinking of skipping on rod tubes and having the rods slide into a single box instead, basically 1/4” thin glassed foam, maybe 4” wide and 6” tall running the same way a trio of tubes would along the sides. I’ve always hated trying to get a nine foot fly rod into a one inch hole, why not just have a box that protects the tips, but let’s them rattle a bit? There will be a small weight savings, but mostly just easier to stow a rod. I could do two rods facing forward and two facing aft on each side and it’s unlikely one rod would spend much time bumping another and I would still have the ability to double park if I need more space (how many stinking rods do I need!). How crazy is this idea?
> 
> Per Chris’s recommendation, I was going to do a fiberglass plate on the transom, a bit of reinforcement where the motor goes, but @sjrobin accidentally put me onto the idea of a carbon fiber plate instead. The price isn’t that high, maybe $100 for a 12” x 12” piece, and I think it would look cool, plus beef up the area where the motor sits.
> 
> I’m watching @Sethsawyer’s deck build very closely, I’m pretty sure that’s how I’ll be doing mine, and I’ll likely be an expert at fairing before mine gets right side up, so no anxiety there. (If Seth’s deck build ‘blows up’ I take it all back and I knew it was a doomed idea from the start!)
> 
> Now just waiting for the rain to stop and another bucket of powder to arrive, plus that pesky job, it could be a couple weeks.


Tiller extensions are pretty easy message me if you have any questions. I’ve made a hundred or so. I can also put you onto a pretty cheap vacuuming bagging set up for easy things like carbon fiber plates


----------



## Sethsawyer

Jred said:


> Tiller extensions are pretty easy message me if you have any questions. I’ve made a hundred or so. I can also put you onto a pretty cheap vacuuming bagging set up for easy things like carbon fiber plates


Jred I’d also love your tiller extension ideas. I am planning on making one as well.

PvP pipe mold wrapped in plastic for the long part, and then actual tiller handle wrapped in cling wrap or tape to release for the second part of the mold. Glass those together? If you have a better way or any trouble shooting ideas tricks please let me know.


----------



## Fritz

Jred definitely interested in your thoughts on building a tiller extension!


----------



## DuckNut

Fritz said:


> The price isn’t that high, maybe $100 for a 12” x 12” piece, and I think it would look cool, plus beef up the area where the motor sits.


Save about $90 and use black fiberglass cloth.


----------



## Net 30

Fritz said:


> I’ve always hated trying to get a nine foot fly rod into a one inch hole..........


A famous Keys guide told me back in the 1990s..._"they should put hair around those damn holes so your rod slips in easier"._


----------



## seapro17sv

Fritz said:


> View attachment 88618
> View attachment 88620
> 
> 
> A short update, mostly to reassure that I have not lost enthusiasm for the project. I’m in the ‘wax on, wax off’ phase and likely showing my lack of talent, but my workmanship is every day less bad. Anyway, put the fairing on, take most of it off, put some more on, (lather, rinse, repeat). I’m thinking if I slow down, spend a bit of time getting this right (by ‘right’ I mostly mean less bad) then I’ll end with a better looking hull.
> 
> Hat tip to @kamakuras and @DuckNut for their excellent fairing advice, of course I ignored them both at first, made a mess of things, then revisited their thoughts.
> 
> I made a couple drain tubes out of 3” fiberglass tape, they are ridiculously easy to make and I’m pleased with the results. It’s really easy to get whatever inside diameter I want and I really like the idea of an old school boat drain plug.
> 
> The trim tabs will have positive buoyancy, it can’t be helped, the floats are off the drawing board and being fitted up. Great rainy day stuff.
> 
> I bought some braided fiberglass sleeve and I can’t think of any reason why I shouldn’t make my own tiller extension, should be pretty simple (hold my beer, watch this!).
> 
> I’m seriously thinking of skipping on rod tubes and having the rods slide into a single box instead, basically 1/4” thin glassed foam, maybe 4” wide and 6” tall running the same way a trio of tubes would along the sides. I’ve always hated trying to get a nine foot fly rod into a one inch hole, why not just have a box that protects the tips, but let’s them rattle a bit? There will be a small weight savings, but mostly just easier to stow a rod. I could do two rods facing forward and two facing aft on each side and it’s unlikely one rod would spend much time bumping another and I would still have the ability to double park if I need more space (how many stinking rods do I need!). How crazy is this idea?
> 
> Per Chris’s recommendation, I was going to do a fiberglass plate on the transom, a bit of reinforcement where the motor goes, but @sjrobin accidentally put me onto the idea of a carbon fiber plate instead. The price isn’t that high, maybe $100 for a 12” x 12” piece, and I think it would look cool, plus beef up the area where the motor sits.
> 
> I’m watching @Sethsawyer’s deck build very closely, I’m pretty sure that’s how I’ll be doing mine, and I’ll likely be an expert at fairing before mine gets right side up, so no anxiety there. (If Seth’s deck build ‘blows up’ I take it all back and I knew it was a doomed idea from the start!)
> 
> Now just waiting for the rain to stop and another bucket of powder to arrive, plus that pesky job, it could be a couple weeks.


I used 1 1/4" ID thin walled PVC for my rod tubes that work ok, but if I build another I'd use 1 1/2" ID. Doesn't seem like a big difference, but it is, and would be much easier to stick the rod tip in without banging into the bulkhead.


----------



## Bob

If I ever build another boat I'll flair the rod tube openings similar to what's demonstrated by the guy in this video


----------



## Fritz

Time to rescue this build thread from the back pages, there’s been some rain and the job cutting into my build time, but things are progressing, haphazardly perhaps, but I’m satisfied with that. In no particular order here is what I’ve been doing the past month or so...

I’m still fairing the hull, but putting less on/taking less off and down to mostly hand sanding now. I’m trying to get those flat edges on the lower chines and the hooked edges on the upper chines, both tasks are proving annoying. I need to refine my technique, whatever time I save using anything with hot glue is triple lost trying to get that stinking glue off the hull.

I almost bought an old two stroke Yamaha on eBay, I was so relieved when it got sniped away in the last seconds. Then my low ball offer for an old Merc 25hp two stroke was rejected. The next morning, on a whim, I called my local Yamaha dealer, the one just down the street with a reputation for high prices and was shocked when they told me how much. Also they had just the motor I wanted in stock, a rope start only version that weighs the least of all new options, so I went down the next day and picked it up. Now I can stop wasting time wondering what to do for power... and start worrying if I made the wrong choice.

I bought the primer, I’m hopeful I’ll be first coating that next month, then a bit more fairing plus the spray rails and maybe the keels as well. Realistically the chances of flipping in October are not very high, I’m so ready to see If this boat even has an inside.

Hat tip to @Jred for the instructions on building carbon tubes for tiller extensions. I’ve taken some of his ideas to crazy town however, and am now schemings to eliminate all aluminum tubes from my boat, I’m positive about the grab bar and a casting platform, those will be easy. I’m making all sorts of carbon tubes and rods, some straight, some curved, some cored, some hollow. It’s kinda fun, and, if I can pull it off, instead of paying about $250 for a factory tiller extension, I’ll get one for under $700. How is that not a bargain? 

A first prototype trim tab float was extremely encouraging, fits nicely and supported almost six pounds, I stopped the test just before the float submerged as it really wanted to flip over. As a reminder the plate and actuator together weigh about 8lbs, I’m positive I can neutralize the weight of the plate, maybe the entire tab. 

I’m planning on two flush mount water bottle holders for the aft bulkhead, I have the first one coming together. Skinning with 4oz biaxial Carbon was an afterthought and is super cheap, maybe two dollars, and saves fairing, priming and painting, plus looks cool. I have a small supply of West System epoxy with 207 just for exposed carbon parts.

I still need paint and rigging stuff, but most of the construction supplies are bought. If the build stretches into the cooler months, there may be a batch of faster acting resin in my future. So maybe 230 hours and call it $5,500 total, plus just over $3,100 for the motor. I’m not planning on buying a trailer so all in should be around 10K, maybe less.

I will probably have to add a livewell to the build, pretty close to 100% chance this will be coffin style right in the middle of the boat and will double as a cooler and seat.


----------



## bryson

Looks like you've been having lots of fun! Glad to see some updates.


----------



## Sublime

Fantastic! I dig that motor and it is on my short list. Question: Why are you wanting to sharpen the edges of the upper spray rails? The lower chines I understand for performance.


----------



## Net 30

Your brutal honesty is funny as chit! Looking forward to when you finally flip her.

Good choice on the power - my friend just bought the same motor and loves it. Lots of power and little weight.

You cup holder idea is great. I priced a Marquesa a couple years ago and their version of the bulkhead cup holder was like $350 - $400 each!


----------



## Fritz

This tiny hook is what I’m talking about, maybe Chris will chime in and tell me where this is, I was thinking it would be a feature on the entire upper chine, but the drawing says lower so now I am unsure...


----------



## bryson

Fritz said:


> View attachment 93018
> 
> 
> This tiny hook is what I’m talking about, maybe Chris will chime in and tell me where this is, I was thinking it would be a feature on the entire upper chine, but the drawing says lower so now I am unsure...


It's on the lower chine. It's a feature on the 10wt skiff too -- I think it's intended to help direct the spray down just slightly when up on plane. I'm not sure it's necessary since I don't feel like the spray off the lower chines is really what gets you wet, but it's a cool idea all the same, and it definitely won't hurt anything to add it.

I do think that a relatively sharp edge there is important though, hook or not.


----------



## Sublime

PS, I think you are right on with the cost. Then add $37,653.47 of labor.


----------



## Fritz

Bryson this is what confuses me (well, lots more than this, but let’s not go there...) all the lower chines are horizontal, no pitch to them (stations 1 through 5).


----------



## bryson

@Fritz I gotcha -- yeah I think the image you posted earlier of all the cross sections was just a group of examples, showing construction details and what not. I don't think those correspond to any skiff in particular. I thought you were referring to the sharp edge that hooked downward slightly at the very edge of the chine.

Also sent you a PM.


----------



## Chris Morejohn

The lip detail is optional, but I would recommend it if wanting a drier running skiff. Use it on the lower chine for sure. The upper chine it will for sure help but a sharp edge is just fine. Anything rounded and the water will follow the radius. 
The two pictures show how I have gone to try to redirect water flow to try to stay a bit drier than my past designs and others. The first picture is Brian Floyd’s 10 Weight skiff running with a 90. See how all the water is clearing the hull. To me this works very well because of my pocket chine designs details that I now incorporate into all my designs that use this pocket.
The other green skiff is what I consider the skiff to use as my guide to try to improve on.
You can see how the spray is riding right up he hull side in a flat calm and the upper deck is catching the spray and shooting it aft. Lots of pressure at this speed and any pin holes in the hull to deck join and thus water goes below. Other skiffs do this too but this is a good photo to show. If not using my chine pocket properly you can get similar upwards spray along the hull sides.
Now the green skiff has a standard classic flat chine with a nice standard chine edge. These Chines I feel are faster in speeds for running skiffs. I offer this chine detail as an option on all my designs if wanting a couple more mph in speed and don’t care about spray or getting wetter.
The CONCHFISH skiffs are about the same size as the green skiff but can weigh on average from 50-100 lbs less. 
Add this detail to your builds or your new designs and you will be way drier.

The way you make the lip is as described in other posts, just wax a nice pice of wood or strip of 1/8-3/16” aluminum and temporarily hot glue to the hulls side positioning the upper edge about an 1/8” above the flat chine. When in place make up your putty with 60% glass bubbles to 40% silica and putty in neatly. When cured use a 14-18 sanding block to shape.


----------



## bryson

Chris Morejohn said:


> View attachment 93088
> View attachment 93086
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The lip detail is optional, but I would recommend it if wanting a drier running skiff. Use it on the lower chine for sure. The upper chine it will for sure help but a sharp edge is just fine. Anything rounded and the water will follow the radius.
> The two pictures show how I have gone to try to redirect water flow to try to stay a bit drier than my past designs and others. The first picture is Brian Floyd’s 10 Weight skiff running with a 90. See how all the water is clearing the hull. To me this works very well because of my pocket chine designs details that I now incorporate into all my designs that use this pocket.
> The other green skiff is what I consider the skiff to use as my guide to try to improve on.
> You can see how the spray is riding right up he hull side in a flat calm and the upper deck is catching the spray and shooting it aft. Lots of pressure at this speed and any pin holes in the hull to deck join and thus water goes below. Other skiffs do this too but this is a good photo to show. If not using my chine pocket properly you can get similar upwards spray along the hull sides.
> Now the green skiff has a standard classic flat chine with a nice standard chine edge. These Chines I feel are faster in speeds for running skiffs. I offer this chine detail as an option on all my designs if wanting a couple more mph in speed and don’t care about spray or getting wetter.
> The CONCHFISH skiffs are about the same size as the green skiff but can weigh on average from 50-100 lbs less.
> Add this detail to your builds or your new designs and you will be way drier.
> 
> The way you make the lip is as described in other posts, just wax a nice pice of wood or strip of 1/8-3/16” aluminum and temporarily hot glue to the hulls side positioning the upper edge about an 1/8” above the flat chine. When in place make up your putty with 60% glass bubbles to 40% silica and putty in neatly. When cured use a 14-18 sanding block to shape.


Chris, very interesting pictures! How much of this would you attribute to the chine detail vs. the amount of the skiff that is out of the water when on plane? I would think that if any of the vertical side of the hull is in the water, most chine details might be negated. It looks to me like the second skiff may just ride with more hull in the water, causing it to come up the hull sides. I'm guessing a bit of dead rise might contribute to this as well?


----------



## Chris Morejohn

bryson said:


> Chris, very interesting pictures! How much of this would you attribute to the chine detail vs. the amount of the skiff that is out of the water when on plane? I would think that if any of the vertical side of the hull is in the water, most chine details might be negated. It looks to me like the second skiff may just ride with more hull in the water, causing it to come up the hull sides. I'm guessing a bit of dead rise might contribute to this as well?



Good observation.
What I see is this.
Brain Floyd is advertising his 10 Weight skiff as seen fully rigged with fuel weighing 1500 lbs. I built my Lithium solid skin skiff rigged with a 50 HP Tohatsu semi one off which weighed in at just under 1000 lbs fully rigged. Both of these designs get no spray up the sides using my chine pocket details. Both skiff designs have lifting strakes aft on the bottom between the centerline and the lower chine pockets. Both have pads down the keel.
The green skiff is advertised as the lightest skiff built with the highest quality all carbon build. My guess is the skiff as seen should weigh with the 40 Tohatsu, same weight as a 50 at 214 lbs around if weighing as advertised less than my Lithium build by maybe 100 lbs. it has more vee but has lifting strakes too, plus a keel pad.
So.... it should be the lighest skiff of the 3 with very good lift going on. With 150 hp on them they have barely any hull in the water. I don’t want to think what the other two designs would be like with 150 hp.
Knowing the green skiffs hull dimensions I can say it’s a smaller hull than the two above but has just a bit more displacement than a CONCHFISH16. 
To me it’s a perfect example of old classic chine design VS new chine design thinking. 

The CONCHFISH designs are just as dry as the first 2 skiffs and are drier than my Orignial Whipray Design and my other past designs from 20 + years ago.
The extra added benefit is that in full on high speed turns you cannot slide using the new chine pocket with or without the lip.


----------



## Fritz

I’m heading back to work, can’t believe the month is ‘over’ so soon. With rain delays I had eight days this month to work on the skiff. That said, I have the boat through primer now, and I’d like to paint before I flip, I would be happy if my boat upside down again means I’m having an emergency... please call the Coast Gaurd.

So first my questions: Is there any reason I should not paint at least the bottom before flipping, so I only turn the boat over once?

My plan is to double foam part of the inside deck, can I just Gorilla glue down the second layer of foam, then three layers of 10ounce, or should I use resin or resin with cloth to make this bond?

I’m pretty sure I want to make a glass tank, but I do not want it built in. My plan is to build a separate tank that will get glasses or bolted absolutely as far forward in the bow as I can and tall, I want sixty pounds in the first two feet +/- of hull, if I can do it. I’m thinking 8 to 10 gallons and as soon as the boat is turned over I will get my dimensions down and build a tank, this will give me several months to fill it with no ethanol gas and test it. I want the tank easily removable in case the idea turns out poorly and I’d like to be able to take the top off and carefully inspect the tank before I install. So what problems do you guys see with this plan?

Lastly, this sounds like a dumb question, but how long is a fifteen inch transom? I left my transom a couple inches long knowing it would be easy to trim it exactly right when I turned it over. So how do I decide what height that is, now that I’m close to flipping?



















































I was targeting livewell/cooler dimensions to come in around twenty gallons. An inch and a half of foam and 15” inside diameter circle with an eight inch extension should get me in the 18 to 22 gallon range, depending on how tall it ends up being. I’m planning on a square extension at the back to house the mechanical stuff, that means I need to run electrics to the island, which is driving my desire to double part of my floor... so I can bury an electric tube. And there will be a grab bar on one end and hopefully a comfortable seat on the other.

I bought some clay and have made a couple scoop/strainers out of glass, using the clay for a mold. They are ridiculously easy to make and you can get exactly what you want shape wise, also very light and, with seven layers of 10 oz, very strong.

I’m using aluminum flashing to make flexible molds for curved parts, I spent an hour walking the isles of the Home Depot searching for that inspiration. So the drink holder design just got more elegant and less boxy... I hope. And I’ve already ‘repurposed’ my first (which was actually my second) drink holder into special tooling, I have the cardboard frame for the flashing taped to that solid little box.


----------



## Pole Position

How do you plan to fill / drain the live bait well?


----------



## Fritz

Pole Position said:


> How do you plan to fill / drain the live bait well?


Through hull pump located right behind the livewell to fill and a second through hull inside with a long tube for a drain. The long pipe will be removable, but it might be as easy to put a third through hull in as a dedicated drain.


----------



## Charles Hadley

Looking good ,spray that sucker!


----------



## Sublime

Will let others smarter than me chime in, but when I double my floor, I was going to look at using mini fibers mixed with my resin to join the two.

Looking really good btw.


----------



## Sethsawyer

drill your transom holes/putty in your glass tubes before you paint unless you are using stainless thru hulls. I used the transom height in the plans and added 3/4" and that put my 25hp Merc cavitation plate exactly level with the bottom of the hull. Also adding 3/4" will make the deck level with the transom.


----------



## Fritz

With help from a friend I flipped my boat. I took it all the way through final paint and realize I forgot to take a picture of the finished bottom. This might be a Freudian slip as I’m not over proud of my roll and tip skills, but I’m happy enough with the finished product and I chose a paint I can repair, so I may go back and retouch a few areas on the sides. Only a putz worries about the bottom.

I was delighted to see that my skiff has an inside.



















































I glassed the inside a few days ago. Three layers on the transom and it’s now solid, very happy to see that. Chris gave me ‘permission’ to try just two layers of 10oz inside, since I double foamed two thirds of the floor I added stiffness (and weight) and wanted to get back a little of that weight.

The center box is coming along slowly, but steadily. I’ll have a hatch behind the livewell for all the mechanical stuff and will mount my carbon grab bar here, 98% chance I’ll fab up a gps box that fits inside the grab bar

I’m only going to fair the interior where it will be easily seen, mostly just the floor between the front and aft decks and a bit near the motor. My plan is a Hells Bay style carpet on the sides of each gunnel, so no need to do anything but get those areas ready for a spray adhesive. Under the decks fore and aft I have been experimenting with neat epoxy mixed with a grey coloring agent and I think I like the results well enough to just do that, which should leave a durable and presentable surface. 

I’m planning to do my decks the way Sethsawyer is doing his, I have space limitations and trouble raising a helper on demand, I think I can get it done in pieces a lot easier. I’m planning to go with Carbon on the deck, I need to lose some weight and I want the extra stiffness. I realize I might save just three or four pounds, likely not much more, but that stupid floor doubling has me scrimping to try and win back a few of those lost pounds.

If your not disgusted yet, wait till you see my thoughts on an electrical system, which I’m busy planning.

When we flipped her, she felt quite light, which was encouraging, and I hope I never see her upside down again.


----------



## GaG8tor

Looks amazing. Like the baitwell design


----------



## jasonrl23

Amazing work! Agreed, that baitwell is very cool.


----------



## Sethsawyer

Wow, looks great. I better hurry up or you are going to finish before me. 

How did you do the curve for your grab bar? Is there a core still under the carbon?


----------



## Fritz

I used a section of hot water pipe insulation, it weighs next to nothing, is super flexible and has a hollow core, in case you want to run electrical lines through it.

It definitely feels like the build is picking up speed, but that may be an illusion, the details are pouring out of the woodwork now. I need you in front of me Seth, to light the way!


----------



## Zika

Pretty work!


----------



## Sublime

Holy moly. That’s all things good. What did you double foam your floor with?


----------



## Fritz

I used epoxy thickened with cabosil (silica) to glue the extra foam down. 

I thought about using a layer of fiberglass, but I think... moving with caution now, I think that for stiffness of a span one side is under compression and the other side under tension and the forces net to zero right in the middle. So whatever is in the middle will not be contributing to stiffness. I had a YouTube video that explained this, but I can’t find it so maybe I made the whole thing up.

Also I think just the act of separating the two sides from each other by a greater distance contributes to stiffness. This is the entire foundation of cored construction actually and I’m proving myself a simpleton by stating the obvious.

I seriously considered just using gorilla glue, but that didn’t seem manly enough. I can tell you that pure cabosil is very tough stuff, I can sand through it, but not easily.


----------



## bryson

Fritz said:


> I thought about using a layer of fiberglass, but I think... moving with caution now, I think that for stiffness of a span one side is under compression and the other side under tension and the forces net to zero right in the middle. So whatever is in the middle will not be contributing to stiffness. I had a YouTube video that explained this, but I can’t find it so maybe I made the whole thing up.
> 
> Also I think just the act of separating the two sides from each other by a greater distance contributes to stiffness. This is the entire foundation of cored construction actually and I’m proving myself a simpleton by stating the obvious.


Yes, in theory the middle plane (the neutral axis) is not loaded at all. However the neutral axis won't always be right in between those two foam sheets since the skins are likely not perfectly symmetric (different # of layers, addition of putty, etc.) and the bottom of the boat has a slight bend to it.

Still, I don't think your bond will see a tremendous amount of loading. I think the most important thing would be creating a good bond between the layers of foam with no significant voids. I'm guessing that resin thickened with silica, or chop fibers, or a layer of cloth would all be appropriate. If anything, the layer of cloth may result in voids if not secured down well.


----------



## Chris Morejohn

Fritz said:


> I used epoxy thickened with cabosil (silica) to glue the extra foam down.
> 
> I thought about using a layer of fiberglass, but I think... moving with caution now, I think that for stiffness of a span one side is under compression and the other side under tension and the forces net to zero right in the middle. So whatever is in the middle will not be contributing to stiffness. I had a YouTube video that explained this, but I can’t find it so maybe I made the whole thing up.
> 
> Also I think just the act of separating the two sides from each other by a greater distance contributes to stiffness. This is the entire foundation of cored construction actually and I’m proving myself a simpleton by stating the obvious.
> 
> I seriously considered just using gorilla glue, but that didn’t seem manly enough. I can tell you that pure cabosil is very tough stuff, I can sand through it, but not easily.


I would suggest for others to put fiberglass between the core layers and then bond with thickened epoxy. Think of your bottom like your stern. The stronger way to make your transom is to build it up in two layers of core glassing in between each layer. Same way I’d build a wide cabin top that has no beam support. Add the fiberglass in between. The double skins work off each other. Way stiffer with a glass layer in between. Your skiff is going to be so light you will need an anchor to drag along to slow it down when poling.


----------



## RogueTribe

As a structural engineer definitely in theory the neutral axis would be in the middle, in practice it will only be if the section is symmetrical, skins are the same strength both sides and the loading is simple. With curved surfaces, varying thicknesses, impact loading, flexing and loading in both directions... all the math goes out the window. CMJ's experience is much more useful than theory using doubled up composites in this manner.

Looks great! I am still dreaming of mine, I keep fishing instead of working on it on the weekends and who knew a baby takes up so much time? #DadLife


----------



## Fritz

About my fuel system... I have a plan, and a back up plan:










and a backup plan...










I found a big piece of styrofoam and, with the help of Gorilla glue and more foam, I made it even bigger, until I thought I had it about right. Then I did the math and guessed I had about a 25 gallon tank, way to big.










My math say this is 11, plus or minus 2 gallons.










Filled imperfections with modeling clay and wrapped in plastic wrap. Next time I will carefully wrap my mold in PeelPly!



























Then I cut a big hole and removed the styrofoam...


----------



## Fritz

So far I’m thrilled with the results, it’s way to early to move this project into the win column however.

My plan now is to sand the inside and four or five coats of neat Epoxy. I’m using West System for this job as I was able to find data points that others had good results with this. No ethanol allowed.

After the inside is coated well, I’ll let the tank sit for a couple weeks, then I’m going to fill with at least five gallons of Rec 90, tape the top and put it outside for a month or two.

















I designed the tank like a shallow V hull, my hope is there will be about a pint or two of unusable fuel in the bottom. I have a brass drain plug and I’m hoping to be able to put that at the lowest point, with the pickup just above. This will give me the ability to monitor the fuel, I’m guessing gravity will take most bad things down, will also make it possible to drain water off, should that ever get into the tank. I will tab the tank in so it can be cut out easily and the six gallon portable slid into place, in case the experiment goes south down the road.


----------



## yobata

very cool!


----------



## Sublime

You'll get some flack for having any kind of fitting on the bottom of a fuel tank. If you want a way to drain, perhaps set up a down tube to a sump area that you can hook a little 12v fuel pump to.


----------



## Fritz

Sublime said:


> You'll get some flack for having any kind of fitting on the bottom of a fuel tank. If you want a way to drain, perhaps set up a down tube to a sump area that you can hook a little 12v fuel pump to.


Why is this? I’ve never seen a boat with this before, though usually the lowest point on the fuel system on a boat is so low as to make it impractical.

I have NEVER seen an airplane that did not have something like this on it, I believe it’s mandatory actually.


----------



## firecat1981

Fritz said:


> Why is this? I’ve never seen a boat with this before, though usually the lowest point on the fuel system on a boat is so low as to make it impractical.
> 
> I have NEVER seen an airplane that did not have something like this on it, I believe it’s mandatory actually.


Airplanes don't typically sit in water. A fitting on the bottom gives a tank a higher chance of failure from exposure to moisture.


----------



## Sublime

Fritz said:


> Why is this? I’ve never seen a boat with this before, though usually the lowest point on the fuel system on a boat is so low as to make it impractical.
> 
> I have NEVER seen an airplane that did not have something like this on it, I believe it’s mandatory actually.


I'm fairly sure Coast Guard rules do not allow openings or fittings below the top of a (gasoline) fuel tank. I'll try and find a link.


----------



## Sublime

Page 32

https://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/AssetManager/ABYC.1002.01.pdf

*
183.518 Fuel tank openings. 


Each opening into the fuel tank must be at or above the topmost surface of the tank.
*


----------



## Fritz

Excellent! Thanks guys, this is exactly the feedback I was hoping for.

And I’d always wondered why we always see pick up tubes. Big help.


----------



## DuckNut

If a hose ruptures it will drain the tank. If a hose ruptures from a pick up tube it will drain back int the tank, hot the hull of the boat.


----------



## Threesticks

Fritz said:


> View attachment 100888
> 
> 
> With help from a friend I flipped my boat. I took it all the way through final paint and realize I forgot to take a picture of the finished bottom. This might be a Freudian slip as I’m not over proud of my roll and tip skills, but I’m happy enough with the finished product and I chose a paint I can repair, so I may go back and retouch a few areas on the sides. Only a putz worries about the bottom.
> 
> I was delighted to see that my skiff has an inside.
> 
> View attachment 100888
> View attachment 100890
> View attachment 100892
> View attachment 100894
> View attachment 100896
> View attachment 100898
> View attachment 100900
> View attachment 100902
> 
> 
> I glassed the inside a few days ago. Three layers on the transom and it’s now solid, very happy to see that. Chris gave me ‘permission’ to try just two layers of 10oz inside, since I double foamed two thirds of the floor I added stiffness (and weight) and wanted to get back a little of that weight.
> 
> The center box is coming along slowly, but steadily. I’ll have a hatch behind the livewell for all the mechanical stuff and will mount my carbon grab bar here, 98% chance I’ll fab up a gps box that fits inside the grab bar
> 
> I’m only going to fair the interior where it will be easily seen, mostly just the floor between the front and aft decks and a bit near the motor. My plan is a Hells Bay style carpet on the sides of each gunnel, so no need to do anything but get those areas ready for a spray adhesive. Under the decks fore and aft I have been experimenting with neat epoxy mixed with a grey coloring agent and I think I like the results well enough to just do that, which should leave a durable and presentable surface.
> 
> I’m planning to do my decks the way Sethsawyer is doing his, I have space limitations and trouble raising a helper on demand, I think I can get it done in pieces a lot easier. I’m planning to go with Carbon on the deck, I need to lose some weight and I want the extra stiffness. I realize I might save just three or four pounds, likely not much more, but that stupid floor doubling has me scrimping to try and win back a few of those lost pounds.
> 
> If your not disgusted yet, wait till you see my thoughts on an electrical system, which I’m busy planning.
> 
> When we flipped her, she felt quite light, which was encouraging, and I hope I never see her upside down again.


What color and paint did you go with?


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## Fritz

Dark grey outside and lighter grey or way off white inside. Using System Three Yacht Primer and WR-LPU topcoat. And I suck at rolling and tipping, but turns out I’m not overly OCD, at least in this regard, so I’m mostly pleased with the results to date.


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## KurtActual

Late to the party, but really interested in the build, especially as you tally the total dollar amount invested. I'd like to own a Conchfish someday...


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## Threesticks

Threesticks said:


> What color and paint did you go with?


Dark grey is the name of the color? It looks good. I did easyposy platinum grey on my bateau lm 18 build and would like to go a little darker on the hull. This is why I'm asking. I like the color you got.


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## Fritz

Vashon Gray, sounds pretentious so I renamed it something more masculine.


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## Fritz

Still a long way to go, but maybe not as much road in front as behind...

Most of the most important bits are nailed down in the back, the livewell is glued down and the bow is coming along rapidly as well. I roughed out the deck pieces front and back and put carbon on the bottom side. I’ll need two more pieces of deck for the sides and, after a little trimming, plan to glue that down and carbon up the top all in one piece, at least that is my current plan.

I would like to have most of the electrical and plumbing installed before I nail the top on her. I have a pair of Relion Lithium batteries that promise 40 amps at 12.8V and come in just over 11lbs together. My motor will not charge a battery and I still don’t trust Lithium’s to not catch fire, so I’m planning on having a quick remove feature, I’ll be able to pop the battery out and charge it on the dock, if all goes to plan.

My fuel tank is full, taped up and squirreled away in a quiet, well ventilated area out doors, fingers crossed it doesn’t melt, optimism is high.


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## bryson

Lots of progress! What's the compartment up front and associated drain? 

Looks great! Can't wait to check her out in person!


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## Fritz

The front compartment is meant to be a ballast tank, I fish alone a lot and there is enough volume for a hundred pounds of water up front, I’m hoping I can balance the boat PRN (as needed). I’m also curious to see if, when it’s really choppy, the boat doesn’t ride better with some extra weight in the bow. This is clearly an experiment, I’ll let you know how it turns out.

This is really where CM’s fuel tank should have gone, but I really wanted to know if a ballast tank would work.

I did buy some expanding foam, if this idea is a bust, I might cover all the holes and fill the space with foam... though not in that order.


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## Fritz

It’s been a while since I’ve updated this, I was out of town... excuses... blah blah, more excuses... 

I am making final preps before putting the deck on, most of the wiring and plumbing is done, though it needs cleaned up badly. The fuel tank soaked for two months and looked perfect, good news there. As I was installing the trim tabs, which went on brilliantly thanks to @Sethsawyer, I noticed a purple wire. Not sure what that was for I broke down and read the directions, turns out it’s the optional auto retract wire, supposed to go to your ignition. I don’t have an ignition, but I had to have auto retract, I keep my skiff on a drive on dock and am paranoid about docking with tabs down, so I got a switch just for that!

My poling platform is mostly done, final sanding and then finishing. I’m very happy with what I have so far, it’s 33” tall and very stiff, overbuilt I think, with a very large deck, roughly 39” x 22”. I went a bit crazy with the shape, my hope is I will spend a dangerous amount of time running this boat while standing on the back deck and leaning against the poling platform, with that in mind, I’m experimenting with a top that will ‘nudge’ me towards the middle, I’ll have to let you know how that works.

Right now the polling platform weighs twenty pounds on my bathroom scale. For comparison, my last aluminum casting platform was 18” tall and weighed 13 1/2 pounds on the same scale, so I’m thinking an aluminum poling platform close to my dimensions would be quite a bit heavier. And as long as you don’t put any value on my time, the cost is really low, under $300.


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## jglidden

Looks awesome man! I love that bar in the aft compartment area. Great idea


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## Fritz

A buddy was asking about rod storage, I’m confident five per side will be easy...


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## bryson

Looking really good, definitely in the home stretch!


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## yobata

jglidden said:


> Looks awesome man! I love that bar in the aft compartment area. Great idea


What is that bar for? I see one in the front compartment also


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## Fritz

I’m not sure how much support my decks will need, I had some extra 12K braided carbon sleeve and it’s easy forming it into curves, so I doubled the carbon up and hope it will help make my decks stiffer and add a bit of camber.


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## Open Fly -The Later Years

Really looking great. I can't wait to see the fihished boat !
capt dave


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## Open Fly -The Later Years

@Fritz, where are you located man, I want to see that boat !
capt dave


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## GoGataGo52__20

Man I tell ya, really coming together bud. So sick


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## Guest

Very nice, have missed a few updates on this one!


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## Fritz

Boatbrains said:


> Very nice, have missed a few updates on this one!


‘Thanks Boatbrains.  On a separate note, I watched your nonskid how-to video and was intrigued, really good stuff there!


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## Guest

Fritz said:


> ‘Thanks Boatbrains. On a separate note, I watched your nonskid how-to video and was intrigued, really good stuff there!


Thank you! Been doing it that way for years with gelcoat. Gonna do a test panel with some good 2k paint and fast reducer to see how it turns out soon! I hate it when the grit starts showing through!


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## Henry Lee Fowler IV

Might be too much to ask but can you explain your process on building the platform?


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## Fritz

Henry Lee Fowler IV said:


> Might be too much to ask but can you explain your process on building the platform?


Not to much to ask... but my build might be a cautionary tale, kind of a ‘don’t do it this way’ story.

My design goal was stiff, light and attractive. Affordable would be nice, but was not a goal. I think Carbon Marine kinda stopped advertising poling platforms partly because they flex to much, also they were quite expensive. Carbon Marines platforms looked to me like they tried to replace aluminum tubes with carbon, they didn’t change the design.

My next platform will be built differently then this one, my legs are actually wood core, I’m using 1 1/8” pine wrapped with four turns of 12K carbon with a braided sleeve to finish. They are crazy stiff, a four foot section almost would not bend at all with my 155 lbs on it. And they weigh about 10oz per linear foot, so kinda heavy. I can make stiff tubes lighter now, but I had these.

The platform is 1 1/2” foam. I put a small half inch thick block in the middle of the platform and then a single layer of 12K carbon on top with bricks all around the edges to force a camber into the top...

















Then a layer of 6K carbon on the top and bottom. I was really worried about the deck flexing, it’s overbuilt, zero deck flex so far, remembering I only weigh 155Lbs.

My design kinda came from a three legged milking stool, the legs point toward the middle and meet the carbon top so the foam isn’t taking a load.

I needed lean bar tubes (not for a lean bar, more on that later) and had another pair of parts built to install them, but once I assembled the platform I found it had a bit of side to side flex. So I built gussets to tie the legs to the platform and hold my horizontal tubes, this seems to have eliminated the flex almost completely, my plan is no bolts, and I expect the platform to get stiffer when glued to the deck.

The base and steps are 3/4” foam with a single layer of 6K top and bottom. Nothing hard or expensive with this design, but there seemed to be a hundred steps, it’s a very time consuming build. Against my better judgment, I’ll leave as much black exposed as I dare, it’s sexy as hell and likely will be just as hot come summer.


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## Smackdaddy53

A carbon fiber dry box with a pad on top would be lighter and more solid but then you have a carbon fiber cabinet on the deck...
That looks nice Fritz. Any more photos? That one is not very revealing.


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## Fritz

Smackdaddy53 said:


> A carbon fiber dry box with a pad on top would be lighter and more solid but then you have a carbon fiber cabinet on the deck...
> That looks nice Fritz. Any more photos? That one is not very revealing.


I love the way you’re thinking Smack! I’m already turning ideas over... obvious problem with putting a storage box at the aft end of my CG is someone might try and store something in it.

More pictures to follow. I’m really looking forward to seeing what @Sethsawyer comes up with, if I was the betting type, I’d put money on him.


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## Open Fly -The Later Years

I love the smell of 2-stroke engines in the morning, smells like..... victory !

Nostalgia to me, I grew up in boats, my whole life, always loved that smell
of gas and oil of 2-stroke engines, have never out grown it !!!!!!!!!!!
Capt Dave


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## Fritz

Deck is nailed down!


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## Fritz

I added 12k pleats underneath, stiff with very little extra weight. All four deck pieces came in at 35lbs, plus another four or so in ‘nails.’


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## Guest

Love it!


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## Smackdaddy53

Man she is looking great!


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## GatorTrout

Where does one purchased twill basalt cloth? Keep getting Alibaba etc.


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## Fritz

GatorTrout said:


> Where does one purchased twill basalt cloth? Keep getting Alibaba etc.


I have not purchased any basalt... yet.


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## GaG8tor

CM posted in his Beryllium build thread the material invoices and I believe one of them shows where he purchased it.


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## Pole Position

GatorTrout said:


> Where does one purchased twill basalt cloth? Keep getting Alibaba etc.


Here is one source and from where I believe Chris bought his:

Best regards,
Nick Gencarelle
smarter-building-systems.com
401-481-8422


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## GatorTrout

@GaG8tor ,I will check it out. 


Fritz said:


> I added 12k pleats underneath, stiff with very little extra weight. All four deck pieces came in at 35lbs, plus another four or so in ‘nails.’
> 
> Fabric you are using for your hull bottoms and Deck is all 12K Carbon mats?
> 
> View attachment 120318


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## Nick Gencarelle

GatorTrout said:


> Where does one purchased twill basalt cloth? Keep getting Alibaba etc.





GatorTrout said:


> Where does one purchased twill basalt cloth? Keep getting Alibaba etc.


https://basalt-fabric.com/


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## Nick Gencarelle

Fritz said:


> I have not purchased any basalt... yet.


https://basalt-fabric.com/


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## Nick Gencarelle

https://basalt-fabric.com/


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## Guest

Nick Gencarelle said:


> https://basalt-fabric.com/


Thanks Nick, will be calling in an order soon.


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## Nick Gencarelle

Boatbrains said:


> Thanks Nick, will be calling in an order soon.


Cool


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## Fritz

Quick update...

I’m tired of working on my poling platform, so it must be done. I scored two full sheets of SeaDek for a hundred bucks at the nautical flea market, it does not look like a pro ran it through a CNC machine, but I’m very pleased with the finished product, all it took was an hour with the sand paper.























Decks faired to ‘good enough for me,’ and first coat of prime. The livewell is lagging this project, but I’m much closer to done then not.

I will cover that gaping hole over the bilge, my hope is I can take water over the transom and have it mostly just wash back out, but I also wanted really easy access. My current plan is no hinges, something that will just slide into place and not rattle.

















One of the cool things about owning your own boat manufacturing company is whatever dumbass idea comes into my head, I’m more or less free to try. That said, this might be my rubrail, could go either way right now.


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## bryson

Everything is looking great! Especially love that platform. Can't wait to get to check it all out 



Fritz said:


> One of the cool things about owning your own boat manufacturing company is whatever dumbass idea comes into my head, I’m more or less free to try.


^^This is one of the best things about building your own boat!


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## Fritz

Bryson I’m looking forward to showing it to you!

(Hopefully around sunset, after you have had several cocktails... is an overcast sky and a bit of drizzle to much to wish for?)


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## Sethsawyer

Fritz said:


> Bryson I’m looking forward to showing it to you!
> 
> (Hopefully around sunset, after you have had several cocktails... is an overcast sky and a bit of drizzle to much to wish for?)


Sounds like perfect fishing weather, which is the reason we build these boats right?


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## Sublime

Looks great. I'm jelly.


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## bryson

Fritz said:


> Bryson I’m looking forward to showing it to you!
> 
> (Hopefully around sunset, after you have had several cocktails... is an overcast sky and a bit of drizzle to much to wish for?)


Don't worry, if my ability to spot bonefish says anything about my vision, I won't be able to notice a single blemish in the paint. Although hell if that's how we judge vision, I might not even know what color it is...


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## Charles Hadley

Best way to sell a paint job! Haha


Fritz said:


> Bryson I’m looking forward to showing it to you!
> 
> (Hopefully around sunset, after you have had several cocktails... is an overcast sky and a bit of drizzle to much to wish for?)


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## Fritz

I’m making good progress now, even though everything takes longer then I estimate.

I have the decks painted and will do one more sand/epoxy coat on all the interior carbon.

I was dreading the rub rail install and for good reason, I did the first half and was surprised at how things went. I was expecting a horrible experience and got a merely tough one, this is a big win and so far I’m very pleased with how it looks. 

What I did was string together a long bit of foam, shape it to a half round, cover it with one inch carbon/fiberglass sleeve, wet the entire thing out with West Epoxy/207 clear. When the snake got tacky enough, I mashed the entire thing onto the gunnel edge. A bit of tape, some lumber and I babysit the entire thing until the resin hardened. Just need to see if I can repeat this on the other side.


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## jasonrl23

Fritz said:


> I’m making good progress now, even though everything takes longer then I estimate.
> 
> I have the decks painted and will do one more sand/epoxy coat on all the interior carbon.
> 
> I was dreading the rub rail install and for good reason, I did the first half and was surprised at how things went. I was expecting a horrible experience and got a merely tough one, this is a big win and so far I’m very pleased with how it looks.
> 
> What I did was string together a long bit of foam, shape it to a half round, cover it with one inch carbon/fiberglass sleeve, wet the entire thing out with West Epoxy/207 clear. When the snake got tacky enough, I mashed the entire thing onto the gunnel edge. A bit of tape, some lumber and I babysit the entire thing until the resin hardened. Just need to see if I can repeat this on the other side.
> 
> View attachment 124136
> View attachment 124138
> View attachment 124140
> View attachment 124144
> View attachment 124142
> View attachment 124146


That baitwell is amazing!


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## Zika

Very impressive work, Fritz. The light is getting brighter at the end of the tunnel!


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## Smackdaddy53

That is looking awesome brother


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## GaG8tor

Dang man, that thing is looking good. Really liking that console/baitwell


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## bryson

Looking really good!


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## Mike Haydon

I was thinking the same thing for a rub rail. But was planning on using screws to attach. Thought to bond in pan head stainless screws and bolt on from behind. Figure it wouldn't cost anymore than that expensive rubber stuff. Glad to see it's working out for you! Great job by the way!


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## Open Fly -The Later Years

That is looking very nice !


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## Fritz

I’m a little nervous, only having two axles, but as long as I don’t top off the fuel tank or put the motor on, I should be alright...


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## Jred

Post more pics when that t-top gets installed too!! Are you gonna set it up for dry launch? Lol

edit: I’m jealous of all that carbon fiber this skiff looks great


Fritz said:


> I’m a little nervous, only having two axles, but as long as I don’t top off the fuel tank or put the motor on, I should be alright...
> 
> View attachment 124634
> View attachment 124636
> View attachment 124638


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## bryson

Hah, better not step in the boat while it's on the trailer either! She's looking great, damn near finished!


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## Smackdaddy53

You have enough load capacity on that tandem axle to bolt a 4 stroke on it now!


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## Mike Haydon

I'm thinking you needed another axle and definitely trailer brakes. Joking aside it looks great. What was on that trailer the Hells Bay bay boat?


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## Fritz

Still needs a few things, push pole holders and console door, but it’s more done then not.

Top speed at present is 26 mph, the fuel tank is full and that does not help, the boat runs nose down without trim tabs. Going to the third hole with the trim bar made it worse. This is the aluminum prop that came with the motor.


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## Sublime

Inspiration / motivation for sure !


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## bryson

Fritz said:


> View attachment 125024
> 
> 
> Still needs a few things, push pole holders and console door, but it’s more done then not.
> 
> Top speed at present is 26 mph, the fuel tank is full and that does not help, the boat runs nose down without trim tabs. Going to the third hole with the trim bar made it worse. This is the aluminum prop that came with the motor.


Oh man, looks fantastic!


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## Sethsawyer

Looks awesome. Congrats.


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## texasag07

What color did you paint the deck? It’s great, glad you got it in the water!


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## Fritz

I have a Tibor push pole caddy somewhere, and have scoured my universe trying to find it, so far no joy. And I’m not in the mood to drop a $140 on a new one, so I MacGyver’d a solution using scraps and leftovers.

I cut the end off a carbon tube and trimmed it as you see, then slid some vinyl tubing over the teeth, this will clamp the push pole. The base was filled with thickened resin. The mounting bracket was one of my rejects from my push pole mounting bracket project. I had a 5/16” bolt and a set of old drag washers from a Penn reel. 

My first impression is the clamp works great, spins nicely, but the bracket is a bit flexy, I’ll let the 5200 cure before really using this and if I need to I’ll make a new and stiffer bracket.


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## Zika

Give you credit for ingenuity, but that "MacGyver" caddy doesn't do your pretty skiff justice. I'd renew efforts to find the Tibor caddy. Anytide also sells a slick personal caddy that fits on a belt/waistband for about $50.


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## GaG8tor

Good looking boat. Great job


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## Jred

Get a black vmarine caddy and make yourself one of these. I’ll show you how if you’d like


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