# New skiff design and build



## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

I look forward to following your progress.

Nate


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

More CAD snaps of a 3D sketch rather than a solid, and of the final iteration with details shown like the convex transom with rounded corners. The slight taper from the max beam at 7/10 of the way up to the bow to the transom is what gives it such great efficiency at displacement speeds. The stern is still wide enough and the weight balance is such that it won't stern squat with up to 150 lbs of motor/jack plate etc hanging from it. Optimal motor will be a modern 20 horse or a yammy/merc 25 2 stroke if that's your style.


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## flyclimber (May 22, 2016)

Looks killer!


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah (Jan 20, 2020)

Nice lines! Subscribed, and looking forward to following your progress


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

Looks like it will be sweet. Very familiar with a few nice tweaks. I drew up the Conchfish hull in SW too. It's so useful for quick displacement calcs and things of that nature, and I used it to help tweak my numbers when I extended the hull and changed the transom. SW Flow is a fun tool as well, but I've only ever used it for internal flow.

Is this your first build? Really looking forward to following along.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

bryson said:


> Looks like it will be sweet. Very familiar with a few nice tweaks. I drew up the Conchfish hull in SW too. It's so useful for quick displacement calcs and things of that nature, and I used it to help tweak my numbers when I extended the hull and changed the transom. SW Flow is a fun tool as well, but I've only ever used it for internal flow.
> 
> Is this your first build? Really looking forward to following along.


Yeah I’m trying to maintain good design ideas like on the conchfish and on a BT micro, and add some tweaks and improvements on top. 
Ive built two boats out of cheap plywood that are mine, materials super limited by my budget. This is my first foam boat, but I’ve been working with sandwich composite design and construction here at UF for 4 years now in a couple different positions.
Got the port side bow stripped and this aircell is a joy to work with compared to wood!


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah (Jan 20, 2020)

There's a small lake 5 minutes from my house, great for largemouth bass fishing, with a maximum 10 hp motor restriction. I would love to see how this skiff performs with a Tohatsu 9.9 when the time comes for testing!


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

SkiffaDeeDooDah said:


> There's a small lake 5 minutes from my house, great for largemouth bass fishing, with a maximum 10 hp motor restriction. I would love to see how this skiff performs with a Tohatsu 9.9 when the time comes for testing!


It should plane out just fine with 9.9 if lightly loaded. It’ll struggle with 2 people and gear. Anticipated dry weight is 200-250 lbs. I’ll be sea trialing with my 25 Suzuki, which will just about launch it into orbit at WOT


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## Mike Haydon (Dec 19, 2019)

Cant wait to see some progress pics! Think you have a solid design sir.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Pics of the hull mostly stripped over the mold coming soon. I’m interested in hearing some opinions on how much rigging I should do before I sell, and how much I should leave up to the buyer. I was thinking of selling it as a hull with just a poling platform, grab bar, LED Nav lights (that don’t require a 12v battery), and trim tabs on a new float on trailer. Also recessed anchor cleats and push pole clips. I wasn’t going to include a motor or pole, but I’m thinking of ordering a new Suzuki 20 to put on the back of it and sell it with, as that is really the motor it’s designed for. For the pole, I’m developing an ultralight push pole layup design and production process right now so I may likely include one if that goes to plan.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

I think it will be much easier to sell with a sea trial. I would be hesitant to buy a new-design hull that I had never driven, even though it's a proven design in theory. Look forward to pictures!


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

bryson said:


> I think it will be much easier to sell with a sea trial. I would be hesitant to buy a new-design hull that I had never driven, even though it's a proven design in theory. Look forward to pictures!


Yes I will be sea trialing for anyone with cash in hand. I own a Suzuki 25 that I can sea trial with regardless of whether or not I sell it with a motor. It’ll be a bit more power than the boat needs but it’ll work


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Also going to conduct my own thorough sea trials before listing it and make a promotional/demonstrative video of it in action performing well


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Didnt get an opportunity to work on the boat today so here’s a mostly up to date picture. Most of the stripping is done apart from a few of the more technical areas. Hadn’t faired down the spray rail yet in that picture.

Another question: what paint is best for me to use if I decide I want to pull a mold off of this hull? Or, do I need to pull the mold prepaint?


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

You don't need to spend money on paint to make a mold. Paint it just before you sell it.


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## Copahee Hound (Dec 21, 2017)

What foam core are you using?


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Copahee Hound said:


> What foam core are you using?


Aircell 60


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## Mike Haydon (Dec 19, 2019)

You need to at least use a high build primer and then a sealer and sand down to 320 to get a good surface to pull a mold from. Just my two cent


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Mike Haydon said:


> You need to at least use a high build primer and then a sealer and sand down to 320 to get a good surface to pull a mold from. Just my two cent


Seems reasonable. I may try to go finer, we’ll see. I’ve had success building small molds with 3D printed plugs and epoxy but never tried something this big on my own


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Any opinions on totalboat paint/primer products?


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## Snookdaddy (Jan 5, 2008)

Awlgrip or Awlcraft for primer and paint.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Snookdaddy said:


> Awlgrip or Awlcraft for primer and paint.


That’s what I was going to go with, but curious about how the totalboat may compare if anyone’s used it.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

I like their epoxy primer, but it's overpriced like the rest of their lineup.


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## BassFlats (Nov 26, 2018)

I like the totalboat products. I've used their epoxy fairing compounds, epoxy, epoxy primer and top coats.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I expected to see a boat by now??


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

permitchaser said:


> I expected to see a boat by now??


Hah maybe finished by the end of July. Only a couple hundred hours of work to go. She is fully stripped though and now I’m focusing in on shaping the details


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

getting closer to glassing. The technical areas take as long as stripping all the other stuff...going to be mostly away from it for a few weeks though working on another project


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## jasonrl23 (Jul 27, 2009)

Sam K said:


> Any opinions on totalboat paint/primer products?


Total boat topside primer is the worst paint Ive ever used. Period. Topside paint was great.


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## Mike Haydon (Dec 19, 2019)

Personally I would use awlcraft if going for a super finished look. The clear sands and buffs beautifully!!!


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Mike Haydon said:


> Personally I would use awlcraft if going for a super finished look. The clear sands and buffs beautifully!!!


That’s starting to look like the clear choice, plus I’m sure the brand recognition won’t hurt me when I’m selling


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## Mike Haydon (Dec 19, 2019)

Sam K said:


> That’s starting to look like the clear choice, plus I’m sure the brand recognition won’t hurt me when I’m selling


"CLEAR choice" hahahaha. It definitely is an awesome finish. It's used on a lot of the big sportfishers and full custom builds.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

She is finally filled and glassed, at least the first layer. Going to be 3 layers of 10 oz with a 4th on the planing surface. Used 50% micro balloons and 50% silica for seam/hole filler, hence the weird brown mottled appearance. Filled and glassed wet on wet so no issues with bubbles


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## Whistu (May 15, 2021)

Looks awesome so far! Can’t wait to see how it turns out!


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

outer glass work done. Tossed a couple layers of basalt on the front of keel that I had hanging around for the added abrasion resistance in case in the long term the paint and fairing gets eaten. Now working on the fun part…. Fairing. Plan of attack is to do a layer of thick putty over the whole thing, sand down to get the big scale stuff taken care of, then layer of thinner putty to fill in any pin holes etc, then high build epoxy primer. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

What putty are you planning to use? Sanding thick putty can get tedious, and you may actually save time by doing more coats, just thinner. Thicker putty also seems to result in more pinholes and small voids.

On mine I did a coat maybe 1/8" thick at most, and it knocked down pretty well. Then I was able to go back with a low flashlight in the dark (and/or a long straightedge) to identify low/high spots and go for another round. Repeat as needed. A flat rasp can help for bulk material removal.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

bryson said:


> What putty are you planning to use? Sanding thick putty can get tedious, and you may actually save time by doing more coats, just thinner. Thicker putty also seems to result in more pinholes and small voids.
> 
> On mine I did a coat maybe 1/8" thick at most, and it knocked down pretty well. Then I was able to go back with a low flashlight in the dark (and/or a long straightedge) to identify low/high spots and go for another round. Repeat as needed. A flat rasp can help for bulk material removal.


Thanks, that’s good advice. I’m just mixing micro balloons and silica into my epoxy to make my putty. I think it’s about 70-80% balloons. Got it premixed from uscomposites and it sands down pretty nicely with a coarse grit pad


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

Sam K said:


> Thanks, that’s good advice. I’m just mixing micro balloons and silica into my epoxy to make my putty. I think it’s about 70-80% balloons. Got it premixed from uscomposites and it sands down pretty nicely with a coarse grit pad


I liked the US Composites mix a lot. It's expensive, but it went down smoothly and seems to be pretty strong.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

bryson said:


> I liked the US Composites mix a lot. It's expensive, but it went down smoothly and seems to be pretty strong.


Any experience with using Q cells? I’m tempted to try them because it’d be convenient for me to get them along with my primer from fiberglass Florida and avoid shipping charges


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Alternatively, is there any difference between the brown “phenolic microballoons” and the white Q cell microballoons in terms of how they behave and how strong they are? I’ve only ever used the brown stuff


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

Never used the brown microballoons, but the Q cells work well. They are easier to sand than the pre-mix stuff, and go on smoothly. I think straight Q cell won't be as strong, though. I made my own mix with Q cells and silica when I ran out of the US Composites stuff, and it seemed pretty similar. It actually might be worth starting another thread on different fillers and when you use what, since these questions seem to come up pretty often during people's builds. There are many folks on here that have more experience playing with different fillers.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

bryson said:


> Never used the brown microballoons, but the Q cells work well. They are easier to sand than the pre-mix stuff, and go on smoothly. I think straight Q cell won't be as strong, though. I made my own mix with Q cells and silica when I ran out of the US Composites stuff, and it seemed pretty similar. It actually might be worth starting another thread on different fillers and when you use what, since these questions seem to come up pretty often during people's builds. There are many folks on here that have more experience playing with different fillers.


I’ll give the Q cells a shot, thanks


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## HunterOnFly (Apr 15, 2020)

How is it working with that basalt? Conformability? Sandability? Fiber to matrix ratio?


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

HunterOnFly said:


> How is it working with that basalt? Conformability? Sandability? Fiber to matrix ratio?


It’s good stuff, behaves about the same as fiberglass, maybe a bit less conformable, I anticipate a bit harder to sand


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Still fairing, might flip over and start the inside soon even if I’m not quite done fairing. In the meantime, just picked up this beautiful brand new float on that’ll hang out in the garage in pristine condition until she’s ready


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## HunterOnFly (Apr 15, 2020)

A little bit of acetone will take care of the factory PVC markings on your bumpers


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

slowly but surely getting where it needs to be with the fairing. My skiff cave has turned into a hazardous winter wonderland of epoxy dust. Almost done smoothing out all the curves of the hull, then will go for a second round filling and fairing any holes and streaks created by the first round. Then time to trim, flip, and do it all again


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Got all the primary fairing finished and decided to flip it, do the inside, then go back to finish up the small stuff. 
Question for those who’ve been here and done this: I have it in a cradle to make sure it keeps its exact designed shape. When did you take it out of the cradle without fear of the sides sagging etc? After glassing the inside or after putting in the bulkheads and knees? 
Almost done glassing (and a little bit of carboning, more on that later) the inside and I’d love to get it on the trailer ASAP so it’s easier to work on and mobile.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

Sam K said:


> Got all the primary fairing finished and decided to flip it, do the inside, then go back to finish up the small stuff.
> Question for those who’ve been here and done this: I have it in a cradle to make sure it keeps its exact designed shape. When did you take it out of the cradle without fear of the sides sagging etc? After glassing the inside or after putting in the bulkheads and knees?
> Almost done glassing (and a little bit of carboning, more on that later) the inside and I’d love to get it on the trailer ASAP so it’s easier to work on and mobile.


I didn't remove it from my cradle until I had my bulkheads glassed in.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

She’s coming right along! The foam is doubled up to the main forward bulkhead, and reinforced with carbon in addition to fiberglass for what should be a very stiff running surface. The transom is 1.5 inch thick foam with 4 glass skins each side, lightweight coosa for where the motor bolts on. Most of the bulkheads are also coosa, which isn’t necessary but I was running low on aircell. Doing them out of coosa only adds maybe up to a pound. 

I decided for the deck layout to do a large forward hatch for dry storage and rear open bulkhead that’ll easily accommodate a small removable tank. Massive amount of dry storage under the front deck. There’s enough room to put all safety gear, tackle, and even camping gear etc. Thinking I will have some small stringers on the underside of the rear deck to make sure it’s extremely stiff and there is no play in the poling platform should this boat get one. Will have under gunnel rod storage and large hatch gutters that drain into the cockpit. There’s a simple recessed bilge area in the motorwell.

I’m using Harry Spear’s method of directly building the cap instead of Morejohn’s cap mold method, but instead of building it completely on the hull I’m going to tab it together and then lay it up on waxed melamine sitting on a perfectly flat surface. Also using a melamine mold for the hatch. Right now it looks like the boat will be for sale some time around late October, after I’ve tested it and probably pulled a mold from it. Going to spend lots of time in the fall optimizing and developing layups. Hoping to get everything together to start taking orders for them in the spring!


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## HunterOnFly (Apr 15, 2020)

For THEM 😀


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## omegadef (Jul 10, 2011)

Be sure when you lay it on the melamine that you have some holes drilled in the core to release air.


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## mudd_minnow (Oct 13, 2010)

Sam K said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Over the last couple months I’ve been designing and getting ready to build a new skiff. I’ve integrated what I see as the best features of several great skiffs, and iterated the design through flow simulations to make a hull that should be one of the most efficient in it’s class on the pole. The hull will only produce between about 2 and 8 lbs of drag at typical poling speeds. This skiff is designed for those who want to access the shallowest, tightest areas with the best fishing, but it has characteristics to make it more seaworthy than other skiffs in its class, such as a large upper chine spray rail, a bit more V forward, and slightly more freeboard than most skiffs it’s size. This thread is to document the build of the first one-off, which will be a simple and ultralight build, and will be FOR SALE for an affordable price when it’s completed this summer. Below are the specs, materials, a CAD shot, and the strongback/jig setup (next task is to fair the mold down to a tight tolerance of 1/32 in). I'll update the thread as the build progresses.
> 
> ...


WOW that looks cool. I wish someone could do that with my old Skeeter boat and build a new one with upgraded designs.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

omegadef said:


> Be sure when you lay it on the melamine that you have some holes drilled in the core to release air.


Will do, thanks


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Getting close to water testing. I think I’m going to go with the Bennett self leveling trim tabs but not sure what size would be best to try. They come in 10 by 10 or 6 by 8. Any thoughts? Boat is roughly 16 ft length by 4 ft waterline beam at stern


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## SkiffaDeeDooDah (Jan 20, 2020)

Sam K said:


> Getting close to water testing. I think I’m going to go with the Bennett self leveling trim tabs but not sure what size would be best to try. They come in 10 by 10 or 6 by 8. Any thoughts? Boat is roughly 16 ft length by 4 ft waterline beam at stern


Why not water-test the skiff without any trim tabs first, just to see the natural behavior of the hull design? I'm not a fan of automatic trim tabs. I like manual control, with the ability to make changes to the ride in various conditions (quartering wind and seas, weight balancing/leveling, head-on chop, etc.). However, if you decide to go with the self-leveling tabs, the 6 x 8 size sounds about right for your application. Just my $0.02


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## flyclimber (May 22, 2016)

I would second the manual trim tabs. It may even fine run without them.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Sounds like a plan. Was planning to test both with and without.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

I’m mostly interested in auto tabs because I’m leaning toward keeping this boat, as it makes the most financial sense, and I want to keep her free of batteries. Anyone have any experience with the Nauticus tabs?


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## Copahee Hound (Dec 21, 2017)

Nauticus "smart" tabs? Stay away!


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## texasag07 (Nov 11, 2014)

Smart tabs don’t work good at all, I would just leave the tabs of versus those pieces of junk. 

If you went with lenco you could put the tabs on without booking up the wires, and adjust the tab needed by pulling the pin that connected the actuator to the tab. You will then be able to length or shorter the actuator by rotating it in the body. Then just put the pin back in as a worst case scenario.


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## Moscateer (Feb 20, 2019)

Looks cool!!


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Ready for first round of water testing tomorrow, hatch fits just not right now because I haven’t trimmed the excess fiberglass in the gutters. Have her on my old Jon boat trailer to keep the float on pristine until she’s ready. Deck is just bolted on right now temporarily. Fingers crossed she works as designed 🤞


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Pictures and videos coming tomorrow assuming all goes well. 
My 125 lb girlfriend can pick up the stern, so I don’t think it weighs more than 200 lbs. Hopefully will get a bathroom scale weight estimate tomorrow too


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Spent the day chasing reds with @HunterOnFly in steinhatchee that were shallow enough to have their backs out the water. We had at least a dozen shots at fish within 20 ft. What a way to field test the new skiff! 
Overall I’m very happy with how she did. She poles comfortably without bumping bottom in 6 inches, hull slap isn’t an issue when she’s balanced out properly. Tracks straight, spins about the bow very nicely, even a bit too easily. Definitely going to add poling strakes to fix that (it doesn’t have any right now). 
As for running, surprisingly no porpoising at all even on a higher trim level with no tabs. She’s very happy paired with the 25 hp, and that ought to be the ideal motor for those that run often loaded down. We had us two, cooler, full tackle and 6 gallons of gas on board and we flirted with 30 mph on my stock Suzuki 25. 28 comfortably. Hole shot was pretty good too. No noticeable flexing of the hull or transom at all despite not having the cap bonded permanently yet. We didn’t get to run her in that big of a chop, but we ended the day dry even after running over our own wake. Also took her out in the gulf a mile or so in a 12 inch chop snd it wasn’t really noticeable with all the dead rise this boat has compared to others in its class. 
Only running issue I need to fix is some prop cavitation right as it gets up on plane and in tight turns. Thinking I may lower the stern an inch while leaving the bow at its current height to fix this and make it look a bit sleeker. Input on this would be appreciated. I could instead build just the transom itself a bit lower, add a set back jack plate, cav plate, or a combo of those to make it run perfectly depending on a customer’s needs. The way I see it, keeping the freeboard this large at the stern will help stop water coming in when anchored or staked stern to seas, or poling backwards from the bow as I like to do sometimes when solo. Will have to experiment a bit more. I’ve got some good running videos that I’ll upload somewhere soon and link to. 
Thanks to everyone who’s shown interest, given me advice and input throughout the process. I’m confident this boat will be a great offering in the smaller affordable skiff market if I can pull this whole thing off. Now on to fine tuning it and getting on with making this running plug prototype look pretty.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Got her back in the gulf today to take on some bigger chop supplied by the 10 mph onshore winds. She absolutely ate it up, rode into the head sea just as smooth and solidly as my friend’s 18 ft BT while keeping us dry the whole trip. The big spray rails worked beautifully. 
I set the motor back using a couple of spacers about an inch, and that fixed the minor cavitation I was experiencing while still allowing it to run pretty shallow without a jack plate. I’m thinking I will incorporate a 1.5 inch setback into the mold. As for the addition of poling strakes, I kept a little bit of skeg in this time and that had it tracking and spinning exactly how I want it to, but strakes are still in the plans. 
Best of all, I finally got the good fish karma going after a lot of close refusals last time out with some trout and a nice thick redfish that we found tailing in 8 inches of water on the falling tide. Felt great to pole my buddy onto his first red in 3 years, especially while up so shallow in the prototype boat.
Now time to get the boat back on the work station and get the longboard and sander back out before I have too much fun with it. Hoping to have a mold within a couple more months.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

After 2 weeks of filling, sanding, and shaping work she’s finally in primer. Not perfect but pretty damn close. Not far now…


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

Sam K said:


> View attachment 183110
> 
> After 2 weeks of filling, sanding, and shaping work she’s finally in primer. Not perfect but pretty damn close. Not far now…


Is this a conchfish ?


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

trekker said:


> Is this a conchfish ?


Nope, it’s my own design that will be coming to market in the spring, but as you can clearly see it’s got a lot of influence from it. 
The design came about by reverse engineering the conchfish/whipray to figure out why it’s so great, and then figuring out how I could refine it to make it even better.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

Sam K said:


> Nope, it’s my own design that will be coming to market in the spring, but as you can clearly see it’s got a lot of influence from it.
> The design came about by reverse engineering the conchfish/whipray to figure out why it’s so great, and then figuring out how I could refine it to make it even better.


You're gonna improve Morejohn's design then? Gotya.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

please list the improvements you made, your reasoning for the changes and what they will accomplish. not busting your chops, actually interested to hear this.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

trekker said:


> You're gonna improve Morejohn's design then? Gotya.


Certainly trying, what’s the point of doing things if you’re not trying to improve them


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

devrep said:


> please list the improvements you made, your reasoning for the changes and what they will accomplish. not busting your chops, actually interested to hear this.


I wanted this boat to have best in class ride in chop and fit more easily in a standard garage. Here’s a recap of the small changes: 
A little bit deadrise which extends further aft
Spray rails are slightly wider 
Spray rails terminate earlier like you see on most larger skiffs - more displacement volume at the stern to combat stern squat with heavier motors 
The big difference: this boat is optimized by iterating it through flow simulations to be much more efficient on the pole than the skiffs currently out there. I’ll draw up a quick sketch to show how


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Sam K said:


> I wanted this boat to have best in class ride in chop and fit more easily in a standard garage. Here’s a recap of the small changes:
> A little bit deadrise which extends further aft
> Spray rails are slightly wider
> Spray rails terminate earlier like you see on most larger skiffs - more displacement volume at the stern to combat stern squat with heavier motors
> The big difference: this boat is optimized by iterating it through flow simulations to be much more efficient on the pole than the skiffs currently out there. I’ll draw up a quick sketch to show how


This is in 2D so it doesn’t tell the full story but it gets the point across. Most skiffs have a waterline shape like on the left, a dorito. This is very inefficient at displacement speeds. You don’t see any sailboats or canoes that look like this. My skiff has a waterline profile more like the one on the right. This shape is efficient. I have done the flow simulations with my boat’s cad model to back these claims up, and though I can’t measure anything on the real thing, it feels dang good on the pole, it just glides through the water. What this translates to in real life is its both easier to push, and one push will get you more distance, so you have to push less frequently.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

Last thing that’s a work in progress: I’m working now to apply what I’ve learned working with aerospace composites to boats. The goal is a lighter and stiffer layup than the standard 1708 based ones that most people out there are using


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## flyclimber (May 22, 2016)

Look up post bake epoxies. drake is doing this with their skiffs


Sam K said:


> Last thing that’s a work in progress: I’m working now to apply what I’ve learned working with aerospace composites to boats. The goal is a lighter and stiffer layup than the standard 1708 based ones that most people out there are using


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

I don't think CM's skiffs have the wedge shape you show.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

devrep said:


> I don't think CM's skiffs have the wedge shape you show.


I CADed up the CF as a baseline. It’s less wedge shaped than others. It would seem to be a natural occurrence when you design a flat stern and entry forward. Has to be intentionally counteracted. The CF was the benchmark I compared to. When I saw that I had 20 to 40% less drag than it depending on speed, I was happy. To get any less drag you have to compromise on other design goals


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

Sam, to date I have answered 15 of your emails asking me all kinds of advice on materials, how to build etc
The best way to show myself and your possible future clients your improved hull shape would be to overlay your new designs hull lines over my CF hull lines drawing that you have used from my plans design. I would also ask you to explain your years of running both the Whipray designs, your time in the Rounded Stern Conchfish Design’s to explain all the nuances that a smaller shorter knockoff designs details will be enhanced with less displacement, waterline length, less hp capacity, interior volume to convince your buyers what’s been done.
Like I said in my last email back to you saying that you have nothing to worry about from me as to copyright infringements, it’s just you have done nothing new. 
I told Sam just like I have told you all, I post all my life’s work on my blogs online to try and encourage others to build, design new skiffs, Like James Curry has done, the gentleman omegada in la.doing their thing.
Would your collage teachers condone what you are doing as an ethical A+ project.
I would suggest you finish building your Skiff, then the hull molds, build, sell a few skiffs and then let your builds talk for themselves through the buying public. To stop emailing me asking how to design and build your Skiff questions and here as it’s not a good business plan for buyers confidence in you.
In the meantime, show us the two hull lines drawings superimposed together. I am very happy for everyone to see my life’s work. It’s a great way to see the Dorito effect of a simulated computer program looks against my ole time seat of the pants approach.


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## Chris Morejohn (May 12, 2014)

Here’s two versions of what you are improving on. I want to learn, really. This is why I gladly share all my designs with everyone. 
I see you have a flatter more voluminous bow, the vee in the stern depending on its shape could mean less volume where needed but please show us in your sectional lines drawing to see the improved on vee and how it compares. Next the spray rails and how they exit into the hull aft. This is done on many designs with myself starting this movement with my Marquesa design before I think you were born and many of today’s builders where your age now. 
I feel we are all looking to the past to improve on the future, my suggestion is to just try next time to make your splash more original into this market.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

@Chris Morejohn message understood, I apologize for overstepping any boundaries and I’ll rethink my strategy going forward.
Here it is. Station 6 was widened slightly on the jig to get a fair curve


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

@Sam K I understand where you're coming from, always looking for improvements and wanting to incorporate new ideas. I have a similar mindset, and I went through a lot of this with my build. Some ideas add a lot of value, some add a little. Some take a lot of effort to incorporate, some are simple. Some are high risk of having unwanted side effects, some have very low risk. Being 40% easier to pole is great, but how much value does that really add when the original is already extremely easy to pole? What do you lose when you make those changes? How much is the benefit reduced when you're fighting a cross breeze, or pushing the skiff through tall grass? I have my own slightly modified version of the CF drawn up in SolidWorks also -- the profile at the waterline is very nice, and all I did to the running surface was extend it (on its original lines) 18" and change the transom.

Also, there's a big difference when building a skiff to sell vs. building a skiff for yourself. From a business standpoint, a "modified Chris Morejohn design" might carry more weight than your own design that's been "inspired by a Morejohn design". I would be really curious to see your skiff overlayed with the Conchfish as well. Do you have them both modeled in SW? If I'm remembering right, it's got a touch more deadrise, is shorter, slightly narrower, and a slight taper at the waterline? Then aside from the running surface, the spray rails are a little wider up front but taper into the hull towards the stern?

Still enjoying watching the build thread. I think you'd be amazed what you can do without exotic materials when doing this type of build. E-glass and epoxy can make for a hell of a boat when paired with good design/forethought and construction practices. Looking forward to seeing more.


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## omegadef (Jul 10, 2011)

I was in a bit of a different boat (pun intended). I had designed a hull to build stitch and glue, but couldn't find good pricing (or really any product) for marine ply locally. I had already built the jig. Then I looked into foam core methods and came across Chris Morejohn. I had never even heard of him before, and I've still to this day never even been on one of these poling skiffs. At this point I decided I needed to adjust some stuff on the design, and convert over to foam core. He was extremely helpful in the process. 
In the below, you can see a similar sketch to what you had posted of my stations. On the right is before I knew who CM was, and on the left is after I read every single post on his blog, looked at his designs and tried to implement what I could.

I am but a chemical engineer, not one of those other lesser engineers, so I didn't draw the boat in solid works, I used freeship and sketchup. I'm pretty sure my waterline profile didn't turn out shaped like a dorito either. I didn't try to save weight and err'd to overbuilt vs underbuilt.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

omegadef said:


> I was in a bit of a different boat (pun intended). I had designed a hull to build stitch and glue, but couldn't find good pricing (or really any product) for marine ply locally. I had already built the jig. Then I looked into foam core methods and came across Chris Morejohn. I had never even heard of him before, and I've still to this day never even been on one of these poling skiffs. At this point I decided I needed to adjust some stuff on the design, and convert over to foam core. He was extremely helpful in the process.
> In the below, you can see a similar sketch to what you had posted of my stations. On the right is before I knew who CM was, and on the left is after I read every single post on his blog, looked at his designs and tried to implement what I could.
> 
> I am but a chemical engineer, not one of those other lesser engineers, so I didn't draw the boat in solid works, I used freeship and sketchup. I'm pretty sure my waterline profile didn't turn out shaped like a dorito either. I didn't try to save weight and err'd to overbuilt vs underbuilt.
> ...


I’ll have to look at your build more when I get back home, looks really cool. You’re a blessed man that you don’t have to use cad, it’s not fun. 
To be clear, I wasn’t trying to say every other skiff is shaped like a Dorito at the waterline, just was trying to illustrate what I worked to avoid in order to reduce drag and oversimplified the explanation. 

Going to go back to the drawing board for a few weeks and come up with something different.


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## HunterOnFly (Apr 15, 2020)

CAD is fun and chemical engineers sell their souls haha.


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

Sam K said:


> I’ll have to look at your build more when I get back home, looks really cool. You’re a blessed man that you don’t have to use cad, it’s not fun.
> To be clear, I wasn’t trying to say every other skiff is shaped like a Dorito at the waterline, just was trying to illustrate what I worked to avoid in order to reduce drag and oversimplified the explanation.
> 
> Going to go back to the drawing board for a few weeks and come up with something different.


Hope you aren't scrapping the current project! In my personal opinion, the big differences in most of the "modern" poling skiffs is in the deck layout (and fit/finish). There are tons of opportunities to get creative and push the envelope. It's also where you can add or save a bunch of weight, and really affect the stiffness/strength of the hull. An example of a cool design feature is the hidden hinges on the Deadrise Zero skiff. I'm really proud of my skiff from a structural standpoint, with the crowned deck and the bulkhead layout. The deep gutters on the HB skiffs are commonplace now, but I think they were one of the first to take that approach. There are plenty of opportunities to incorporate cool ideas.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

bryson said:


> Hope you aren't scrapping the current project! In my personal opinion, the big differences in most of the "modern" poling skiffs is in the deck layout (and fit/finish). There are tons of opportunities to get creative and push the envelope. It's also where you can add or save a bunch of weight, and really affect the stiffness/strength of the hull. An example of a cool design feature is the hidden hinges on the Deadrise Zero skiff. I'm really proud of my skiff from a structural standpoint, with the crowned deck and the bulkhead layout. The deep gutters on the HB skiffs are commonplace now, but I think they were one of the first to take that approach. There are plenty of opportunities to incorporate cool ideas.


Oh no I’m definitely not scrapping this thing. It’s like 95% done and it’s a great boat. I’ll finish it out nice and either run it myself or sell it, but I can’t pull a mold off of it and bring it to market after Chris expressed his objections. Plus, it’s clear to me that it’d never shake the CF imitator perception, which is not what I want. Plus, I’ve been thinking about going a different direction anyway with a larger 17-18 ft boat that can also be produced as a shorter one to satisfy the folks who want a skiff that’ll fit in a garage readily. 
This skiff will remain as what I originally intended it to be: a build on which I further honed my skills and knowledge a ton, and a great little boat for me and/or someone else to enjoy.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

HunterOnFly said:


> CAD is fun and chemical engineers sell their souls haha.


Bro you clearly haven’t spent 500 hrs on Creo designing circuit breakers in a dark cubicle


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## JPatCourtney (Feb 6, 2018)

This thread was a wild ride!!

Sam strikes me as a very driven and capable young man who maybe just got a bit overzealous and lacked some tact in a few of his posts re improving on other's designs. Productive and confident young people in skiff design is a great thing, even though they may put their foot in their mouth a few times.

I hope this thread continues and we get a new thread for the next design.

Here's to second chances .


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

I'm not sure Chris objects to you selling a version of his design as others are doing so. but maybe he made an arrangement with them I don't know. maybe he didn't like his designs being compared to a dorito lol.


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

devrep said:


> I'm not sure Chris objects to you selling a version of his design as others are doing so. but maybe he made an arrangement with them I don't know. maybe he didn't like his designs being compared to a dorito lol.


Again, not my intention, though I can see how it was taken that way. Will be more careful with how I word things, lesson learned!


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## Sam K (Apr 24, 2020)

JPatCourtney said:


> This thread was a wild ride!!
> 
> Sam strikes me as a very driven and capable young man who maybe just got a bit overzealous and lacked some tact in a few of his posts re improving on other's designs. Productive and confident young people in skiff design is a great thing, even though they may put their foot in their mouth a few times.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words. Definitely won’t be the last boat I ever build.


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## jonny (May 1, 2007)

Hell everyone is building a Morejohn hull these days. And for very good reasons. But in the end they are all the same with minor detail changes. Very few true original designs out there. There’s a guy here in town that built a hell of nice Morejohn designed skiff. They were supposed to be going into production I was told. They even built the deck from a mold. I peeked under the tattered cover. Now it’s just sitting going to waste. I was told they folded in going into production by their shop neighbor. But looks like a very nice build. My boat looks nothing like a Hells Bay and I am proud of that. It’s the best boat I have ever owned. But I am a bit biased😂 It’s a blend of 6 Gheenoes, 1 Johnsen, 1 Mako 1550, 1home built canoe/johnboat hybrid, 1 East Cape Lostmen and 1 Hells Bay Guide. And the experience that only comes with pushing boats with sticks since 1991😂👌


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## boneappetite (Sep 5, 2015)

jonny said:


> Hell everyone is building a Morejohn hull these days. And for very good reasons. But in the end they are all the same with minor detail changes. Very few true original designs out there. There’s a guy here in town that built a hell of nice Morejohn designed skiff. They were supposed to be going into production I was told. They even built the deck from a mold. I peeked under the tattered cover. Now it’s just sitting going to waste. I was told they folded in going into production by their shop neighbor. But looks like a very nice build. My boat looks nothing like a Hells Bay and I am proud of that. It’s the best boat I have ever owned. But I am a bit biased😂 It’s a blend of 6 Gheenoes, 1 Johnsen, 1 Mako 1550, 1home built canoe/johnboat hybrid, 1 East Cape Lostmen and 1 Hells Bay Guide. And the experience that only comes with pushing boats with sticks since 1991😂👌
> On point Sir!


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## boneappetite (Sep 5, 2015)

On point Sir!


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## lsunoe (Dec 5, 2016)

What a rollercoaster of a thread


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