# SM1444 Tunnel Hull? Or Nah? --- Texas



## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Probably depends on where you are targeting reds and how shallow things are there. 

I wouldn't imagine you are making long open flats runs in a SM1444...


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## GoGataGo52__20 (Jun 26, 2016)

It depends on what your using it for, if not targeting tailing redfish 90% of the time as listed you most likely won't get a lot of benefit out of the tunnel. In fact it will hamper your performance a bit, not to mention your horsepower of that skiff isn't really gonna get you all of the benefit out of it either...


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## SeaDrifter (Apr 4, 2018)

Keep in mind in freshwater that little sun of a gun will draft more and you will most assuredly stay wet. In salt, a small tunnel like this would be killer in the marsh and flats but it would not be much fun scooting across a lake in.

Michael


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## loganlogan (May 8, 2020)

SeaDrifter said:


> Keep in mind in freshwater that little sun of a gun will draft more and you will most assuredly stay wet. In salt, a small tunnel like this would be killer in the marsh and flats but it would not be much fun scooting across a lake in.
> 
> Michael


Interesting statement. Are you referring to the bouyancy of the salt water? If so, will it make that big of a difference?


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Tunnel if you don’t want to limit where you can go and don’t want to chop bottom a lot. They don’t cause as many issues as people tend to believe.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

I would only consider a tunnel that has sponsons built into the design like an Ankona Cayenne, OR one that is really long like the Shadowcast 18 so that the length helps flotation and helps keep it from squatting when getting on plane.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Shallows said:


> I would only consider a tunnel that has sponsons built into the design like an Ankona Cayenne, OR one that is really long like the Shadowcast 18 so that the length helps flotation and helps keep it from squatting when getting on plane.


I thought you were the guy asking advice on running a jack plate, tabs or tilt/trim unit on your boat recently?


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I thought you were the guy asking advice on running a jack plate, tabs or tilt/trim unit on your boat recently?


And... aren't you the guy running a Maverick with integrated sponsons exactly as I am recommending to the OP?


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Shallows said:


> And... aren't you the guy running a Maverick with integrated sponsons exactly as I am recommending to the OP?


I’m asking you a question because based on reading your other posts you don’t have any first hand experience running a skiff with any of these things because you’re asking how many times and how often you can “clip bottom” and “clip sand” before tearing your lower unit up...I’m not being a smartass just figured I’d point that out. Dressing like a UFC fighter doesn’t make you a UFC fighter and the same goes with rigging and running skinny skiffs. I’ve run many tunnels with no sponsons that have excellent hole shot. Integrated trim tabs or adding trim tabs all but cancel out any squat during hole shot on any hull tunnel or not.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Integrated trim tabs or adding trim tabs all but cancel out any squat during hole shot on any hull tunnel or not.


Yep, from what I have read this is correct.


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## mrbacklash (Nov 1, 2008)

Unless something has changed they were not putting tunnels in the 1656 or 1444 when I ordered my Cayenne 2 years ago. I initially wanted to go with the 1656 and a tunnel and they stopped doing those.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I’m asking you a question because based on reading your other posts you don’t have any first hand experience running a skiff with any of these things


My last boat up until a few months ago was a 15' tunnel hull with no sponsons and jack plate - so that is my direct experience.

I agree with you that trim tabs would be of great help, but they are not going to completely cancel out what is essentially a flotation issue - at least on more aggressive tunnels (mine was 5").

If tabs were an absolutely perfect fix then why does your Maverick even have integrated sponsons? Why does the Cayenne have integrated sponsons? And so on. I'm sure the tabs help, but there is a reason they design these boats that way.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Rollbar said:


> Yep, from what I have read this is correct.


And I will back it up!


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

A properly designed AND rigged tunnel will NOT squat any more than a non tunnel during hole shot with or without tabs! I have literally rigged thousands of boats with amd without tunnels, sponsons, jack plates, compression plates, jet drives, 3,4,&5 blade props, surface drives, etc... It all comes down to proper set up and the operator, period! Ya’ll can thank me later!


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Shallows said:


> My last boat up until a few months ago was a 15' tunnel hull with no sponsons and jack plate - so that is my direct experience.
> 
> I agree with you that trim tabs would be of great help, but they are not going to completely cancel out what is essentially a flotation issue - at least on more aggressive tunnels (mine was 5").
> 
> If tabs were an absolutely perfect fix then why does your Maverick even have integrated sponsons? Why does the Cayenne have integrated sponsons? And so on. I'm sure the tabs help, but there is a reason they design these boats that way.


The sponsons get the outboard under the poling platform so you’re not beating the cowling up all day while poling. 
I guess I missed the tunnel skiff you ran, thought you only had a boat that was chopping bottom quite often. My bad.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> The sponsons get the outboard under the poling platform so you’re not beating the cowling up all day while poling.
> I guess I missed the tunnel skiff you ran, thought you only had a boat that was chopping bottom quite often. My bad.


I will say that my tunnel hull was better before the jack plate - as far as squatting; the 6" or so of setback on the jack plate just acted as a lever and really caused the squatting to be worse - but if you stayed on plane that boat could run in nothing!


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

JC Designs said:


> A properly designed AND rigged tunnel will NOT squat any more than a non tunnel during hole shot with or without tabs! I have literally rigged thousands of boats with amd without tunnels, sponsons, jack plates, compression plates, jet drives, 3,4,&5 blade props, surface drives, etc... It all comes down to proper set up and the operator, period! Ya’ll can thank me later!


James, when you rigged these boats do you try to avoid any jack plate setback though, if there are no sponsons?


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

No, never! I prefer a hydraulic jackplate to make the most effective use of the tunnel. The trajectory of the water exiting a proper tunnel allows for the motor to be ran at extreme heights with the correct prop and a compression plate. To make up for the fulcrum of the jackplate I simply move weight forward.


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## birdyshooter (Sep 17, 2019)

Being a freshwater guy, I'd say you're better off with something like a carolina skiff or polar. Crappie and catfishing requires rod holders and the ability to navigate open waters safely, hold bait/tackle and drift. I think what you are seeking is going to be a major compromise. I would personally lean towards a j16 or something similar.


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## SeaDrifter (Apr 4, 2018)

loganlogan said:


> Interesting statement. Are you referring to the bouyancy of the salt water? If so, will it make that big of a difference?


 I see a notable difference in my Majek. In freshwater she drafts 1 1/2" more than in salt.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

JC Designs said:


> A properly designed AND rigged tunnel will NOT squat any more than a non tunnel during hole shot with or without tabs! I have literally rigged thousands of boats with amd without tunnels, sponsons, jack plates, compression plates, jet drives, 3,4,&5 blade props, surface drives, etc... It all comes down to proper set up and the operator, period! Ya’ll can thank me later!


True...mine squats at rest with the Tohatsu 50 sitting on top of a big tunnel...but using the right prop and trimming it properly for "launch" will pop it up very quickly in very shallow water.

If I don't screw it up, I can hop up in less than 12" of water...without spinning and inside of two boat lengths. 

If I screw it up..._you have to get the engine height and engine trim angle right_...its not pretty.


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## loganlogan (May 8, 2020)

SeaDrifter said:


> I see a notable difference in my Majek. In freshwater she drafts 1 1/2" more than in salt.


I had no idea. That could be significant.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

I did some testing on my lil yellow boat a few years ago in lake harris (florida) when I changed outboards and was surprised at how much lower it sat in fresh water. probably an inch.


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## loganlogan (May 8, 2020)

devrep said:


> I did some testing on my lil yellow boat a few years ago in lake harris (florida) when I changed outboards and was surprised at how much lower it sat in fresh water. probably an inch.


That is something to consider, as I'm looking around for a first flats boat. I do still enjoy flipping pads for largemouth. I wonder if all flats boats act similarly?


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## SeaDrifter (Apr 4, 2018)

loganlogan said:


> That is something to consider, as I'm looking around for a first flats boat. I do still enjoy flipping pads for largemouth. I wonder if all flats boats act similarly?


 Buoyancy in salt/fresh is realized in everything that floats. This is why everyone floats on the Dead Sea




Michael


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## loganlogan (May 8, 2020)

SeaDrifter said:


> Buoyancy in salt/fresh is realized in everything that floats. This is why everyone floats on the Dead Sea
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I get that. My assumption was that a bass style boat and a flats style boat were similarly floaty.


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## Shadowcast (Feb 26, 2008)

We do not offer a tunnel on the Salt Marsh 1444.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

loganlogan said:


> I get that. My assumption was that a bass style boat and a flats style boat were similarly floaty.


I don't think it has anything to do with what you call the boat. a bass boat would be more buoyant in salt water.


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## loganlogan (May 8, 2020)

devrep said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with what you call the boat. a bass boat would be more buoyant in salt water.


Interesting that a flats boat is less bouyant.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

crboggs said:


> True...mine squats at rest with the Tohatsu 50 sitting on top of a big tunnel...but using the right prop and trimming it properly for "launch" will pop it up very quickly in very shallow water.


Thats all true, a tunnel is going to squat more and draft more than an equivalent non-tunnel.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

JC Designs said:


> No, never! I prefer a hydraulic jackplate to make the most effective use of the tunnel. The trajectory of the water exiting a proper tunnel allows for the motor to be ran at extreme heights with the correct prop and a compression plate. To make up for the fulcrum of the jackplate I simply move weight forward.


My last tunnel was only 320 pounds plus outboard with no battery - there was no weight to move around... and even if I ran a 200-lb passenger up front the rear would still sag a lot more than a non-tunnel - we are talking about a displacement issue.

I will say that my experience is with a fairly large rectangular 5" tunnel - from what I can see most fiberglass skiffs probably have half the tunnel size I had and therefore less of the negative displacement issues - and I don't think guys here without that experience realize what its like to run a really large tunnel and how they act in the water.

That said, you can move all the weight around you want JC - and I agree you could probably greatly improve things if you had something to move around to act as a lever or change the fulcrum like you said (which is the benefit I see in long narrow tunnel hulls like the Shadowcast 18); however, you simply aren't going to equal the displacement of a non-tunnel - at least when floating in the water.

I say this as someone who is a fan of tunnel hulls, BUT my experience with my last tunnel has taught me that I like the idea of integrated sponsons like the old Maverick's and Cayenne or a long narrow tunnel like the Shadowcast 18.


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

Shadowcast said:


> We do not offer a tunnel on the Salt Marsh 1444.


But they used to make them?


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Shallows said:


> My last tunnel was only 320 pounds plus outboard with no battery - there was no weight to move around... and even if I ran a 200-lb passenger up front the rear would still sag a lot more than a non-tunnel - we are talking about a displacement issue.
> 
> I will say that my experience is with a fairly large rectangular 5" tunnel - from what I can see most fiberglass skiffs probably have half the tunnel size I had and therefore less of the negative displacement issues - and I don't think guys here without that experience realize what its like to run a really large tunnel and how they act in the water.
> 
> ...


Humor my curiosity, what was the ballpark length and width of this 5” deep tunnel. Also, my tunnel design creates lift upon acceleration! Remember, I keep saying... a “PROPERLY” designed tunnel. I am not reffering to a tunnel that just happens to work by being there.


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

JC Designs said:


> Humor my curiosity, what was the ballpark length and width of this 5” deep tunnel. Also, my tunnel design creates lift upon acceleration! Remember, I keep saying... a “PROPERLY” designed tunnel. I am not referring to a tunnel that just happens to work by being there.


Link to your designs?
Thanks,


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Shallows said:


> Thats all true, a tunnel is going to squat more and draft more than an equivalent non-tunnel.


Really depends on tunnel size and engine weight.

I have a big tunnel and a Tohatsu 50 with no sponsons. 

Squats a bit when empty but fishes perfectly flat when two of us are poling/casting.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

JC Designs said:


> Also, my tunnel design creates lift upon acceleration!


Ken showed me the tunnel on his skiff...following your recommendations. Once he gets his prop sorted out that skiff is gonna be ridiculously skinny...


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

Rollbar said:


> Link to your designs?
> Thanks,


Not a chance! 😎 
They are reserved for my skiff designs and I am still deciding on goong into production vs selling plans/kits.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

loganlogan said:


> Interesting that a flats boat is less bouyant.


lol, flats boats aren't less buoyant. all boats are less buoyant in fresh water.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

crboggs said:


> Ken showed me the tunnel on his skiff...following your recommendations. Once he gets his prop sorted out that skiff is gonna be ridiculously skinny...


Thank you, I think we got it right. Was a little tough not being there in person and I know we had to make some corrections but from his picsI think he got it! I can’t wait for the final results!!!🤘


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

I guess I have to break out my tunnel volume vs draft calculations again for the professional worry warts.


🦀Tunnel Volume Calculation🦀
by Captain Mac Jank
Zephyr Cove Guide Service


“A tunnel that is 3" deep at the transom and slopes down flush with the bottom that is 14" wide and 32" long has about 672 cubic inches of volume. A cubic foot is 1728 inches and can float about 62 pounds. 
672\1728 is ~0.38 so multiply 62x.38 and you get 23.56# loss of bouyancy. That is just a rough tunnel size and shape, most tunnels have sloped sides so that is even less volume lost. Disperse that along all that wetted area of a hull and the draft loss is miniscule (like 1/4" with a man on the bow when draft matters most). I can see if it is a 6" deep tunnel that is 48" long and 18" wide like some of the aluminum tunnel hulls but most skiff tunnels I have seen are not very big at all...”


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## Rollbar (Oct 20, 2016)

JC Designs said:


> Not a chance! 😎
> They are reserved for my skiff designs and I am still deciding on goong into production vs selling plans/kits.


Ok well let me know either way-Plans etc.
Thanks,


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## loganlogan (May 8, 2020)

devrep said:


> lol, flats boats aren't less buoyant. all boats are less buoyant in fresh water.


I'm just trying to figure out the original comment. It was mentioned that a flats boat, will sit too low in fresh water. A bass boat was mentioned as floating fine in fresh and salt. What's the deal?


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## HenryTinSkiff (Jan 14, 2020)

loganlogan said:


> I'm just trying to figure out the original comment. It was mentioned that a flats boat, will sit too low in fresh water. A bass boat was mentioned as floating fine in fresh and salt. What's the deal?


No, he was trying to say that ANY boat will be less bouyant in fresh water. He wasn't saying that a flats boat in specific would that was just the context. A bass boat is the same way.


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## birdyshooter (Sep 17, 2019)

This is all I can think of right now!!🤣🤣🤣


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## JosephDiesing (Jul 11, 2020)

Shadowcast said:


> We do not offer a tunnel on the Salt Marsh 1444.


FYI the website says differently.


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## JosephDiesing (Jul 11, 2020)

Thanks, guys for all the responses. I suppose the consensus is... IDK lol


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

JosephDiesing said:


> Thanks, guys for all the responses. I suppose the consensus is... IDK lol


Oh no, the consensus is tunnel by a landslide according to your poll on page one! 😎


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## Shadowcast (Feb 26, 2008)

JosephDiesing said:


> FYI the website says differently.


10-4. They need to change that. We haven't offered a tunnel in a while.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

Shallows said:


> But they used to make them?


Probably stopped because the drain plug is in the wrong location. LOL


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

K3anderson said:


> Probably stopped because the drain plug is in the wrong location. LOL


Good eye! That won’t drain too well unless you have 20-30 gallons sloshing around.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

JC Designs said:


> Thank you, I think we got it right. Was a little tough not being there in person and I know we had to make some corrections but from his picsI think he got it! I can’t wait for the final results!!!🤘


Now I had to send out that prop to Foreman because it seems no one in the state of Florida knows how to properly cup a prop


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

K3anderson said:


> Now I had to send out that prop to Foreman because it seems no one in the state of Florida knows how to properly cup a prop


Well that sucks! I might have to get some pitching blocks and start tinkering! 😎 I ain’t skeered!


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

K3anderson said:


> Now I had to send out that prop to Foreman because it seems no one in the state of Florida knows how to properly cup a prop


Other than the lazy bums at our Fl. Prop shops how is she doin?


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

JC Designs said:


> Well that sucks! I might have to get some pitching blocks and start tinkering! 😎 I ain’t skeered!


Brought to Admiral twice. Better, but, not even close to my foreman


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

JC Designs said:


> Other than the lazy bums at our Fl. Prop shops how is she doin?


It's definitely ridiculous shallow. With it cupped I can run above the bottom but it just slips on turns etc. I think once Jack bends it up, its going to be insane where this thing can go.


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

K3anderson said:


> It's definitely ridiculous shallow. With it cupped I can run above the bottom but it just slips on turns etc. I think once Jack bends it up, its going to be insane where this thing can go.


Awesome! Makes me happy happy my friend!😎


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## Shallows (Mar 29, 2020)

JC Designs said:


> Humor my curiosity, what was the ballpark length and width of this 5” deep tunnel. Also, my tunnel design creates lift upon acceleration! Remember, I keep saying... a “PROPERLY” designed tunnel. I am not reffering to a tunnel that just happens to work by being there.


JC, 5" high tunnel; maybe 3-feet deep, very _rough_ guess maybe 15" width at bottom - this was the same model I had (but without the sponsons):


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## JC Designs (Apr 5, 2020)

So about 90lbs “MAX” displacement lost over 36 linear inches “I used only the numbers given and know that tunnel is a trapezoid” So just like the Rona virus, the numbers are skewed here. That doesn’t equate to much of a draft gain really. I mean, with all the correct numbers I can calculate and give and accurate number but on that width/length hull maybe a 1/4”?


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

K3anderson said:


> I think once Jack bends it up, its going to be insane where this thing can go.


Definitely looking forward to running some traps in both skiffs.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

JC Designs said:


> Well that sucks! I might have to get some pitching blocks and start tinkering! 😎 I ain’t skeered!


Jack won't be around forever...and I don't even know who makes a remotely comparable replacement...so it may not be a bad idea...


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