# Over lining a rod



## Scrob (Aug 26, 2015)

Have an 8wt TFO Mangrove rod with an 8wt Royal Wulff line, but I'm thinking of trying a 9wt line to increase distance. What are y'alls thoughts in over lining a rod? Ive read it should increase my distance but I don't want to sacrifice a gentle presentation.


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## THTSARUMR (Apr 13, 2016)

I was searching this exact topic because I was wondering if the Mangrove 8wt needed overlining and I was hoping to read the responses but I guess not. Did you wind up overlining it anyway and if so how did it work out?


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

If you want to increase distance look for an 8wt line with a longer taper. The cortland liquid crystal flats taper can carry a lot of line in the air. The Wullf is a very short compact head. 

Over lining a rod will make short cast easier, longer cast will make the rod feel like a wet noodle. When you push it everything will fall apart unless the rod is a broom stick and capable of a heavier line. I don't believe the mangrove fits in that category. From what I have read on the mangrove it's not designed to be a distance rod.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Also look at the head weights on line before you go buy a line that is labeled the next weight up. Some 8 wt lines fall into the 9wt category by grain weight. For example the 9wt wulff btt has the weight of a normal 10 wt line.


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## THTSARUMR (Apr 13, 2016)

el9surf said:


> If you want to increase distance look for an 8wt line with a longer taper. The cortland liquid crystal flats taper can carry a lot of line in the air. The Wullf is a very short compact head.
> 
> Over lining a rod will make short cast easier, longer cast will make the rod feel like a wet noodle. When you push it everything will fall apart unless the rod is a broom stick and capable of a heavier line. I don't believe the mangrove fits in that category. From what I have read on the mangrove it's not designed to be a distance rod.



Thanks for the info.


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## scissorhands (Apr 8, 2012)

el9surf said:


> If you want to increase distance look for an 8wt line with a longer taper. The cortland liquid crystal flats taper can carry a lot of line in the air. The Wullf is a very short compact head.
> 
> Over lining a rod will make short cast easier, longer cast will make the rod feel like a wet noodle. When you push it everything will fall apart unless the rod is a broom stick and capable of a heavier line. I don't believe the mangrove fits in that category. From what I have read on the mangrove it's not designed to be a distance rod.


^He's right.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Over-lining/under-lining is a bit counter-intuitive. Over-lining your rod will make it more difficult to achieve the extra distance you seek, and likely open up your loops resulting in a worse presentation. Fly rods are designed to load "bend" with a certain amount of weight outside the tip of the rod. The weights are supposedly standardized by AFFTA. If you're wanting distance and a delicate presentation you'll actually want to under-line (for weight) the rod. The logic behind this is that a rod that has been underlined will actually be in the optimal weight (of the line in grains) with more of the line out the rod tip. 

Your case,

8 wt. line will have a median target weight of 210 grains with the first 30' of line outside the tip of the rod, and thus effectively load the rod to cast that 30 feet combined whatever line you're able to slip and shoot while casting.

with that...

7 wt. line will have a median target weight of 185 grains with the first 30' of line outside the tip of the rod, with this weight you can put approximately 16'-22' of line (depending on brand and style) outside the tip of the rod before you reach that 210 grain sweet spot your rod is supposed to like for effective loading.

This link will get you to the AFFTA line weight standards. http://www.affta.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/fly_line_weight_specs.pdf

This is just a brief description and not to be taken as gospel, a lot of things influence casting ability of a given line, your ability to haul, line speed, taper, rod tracking....etc

My guess is if you weigh that RW 8wt line you'll see it's already heavy (for weight). Lefty Kreh touches on this in several books, and can explain with greater detail and eloquence with regard to casting mechanics. 

Any advice from me on this sort of thing should really be taken with a grain of salt, my casting looks like someone suffering a seizure and a severe bee attack at the same time.

Sorry for the long post, just trying to help keep you from doing what I did, buying lots of fly line, and still not being where you want to be. That stuff is expensive.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

LowHydrogen is spot on. My best suggestion for increasing your casting distance is to get some casting lessons from a certified casting instructor. They can help you determine if the current limiting factor to your distance is equipment and/or mechanics. The best line on your rod will improve things. But it is not going to overcome a faulty stroke.


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## THTSARUMR (Apr 13, 2016)

Great info by all, and thanks. I guess I should have phrased my first post more carefully as to not that any rod "NEEDS" overlining but rather if anyone had ever experimented with overlining the Mangrove. I personally have never over/underlined any of the rods I've owned nor have I ever felt the need to. I've always believed that if the cast isn't how you wanted it to be its usually operator error rather than gear. Still curious though for those that have overlined their rods what was the reason for it and what were their results and whats was sacrificed along the way.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Ok I used to overline my redfishing rods all the time. Because my shots were mostly short and a quick head was the best way to get a fly there quickly. Now I don't overline any of my redfish outfits. Why? Because fly lines given the "redfish" designation are now made 1/2 line heavier to begin with. And I haven't notice any real drop in my ability to cast longer when needed (or any worse presentation).


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

ifsteve said:


> Ok I used to overline my redfishing rods all the time. Because my shots were mostly short and a quick head was the best way to get a fly there quickly. Now I don't overline any of my redfish outfits. Why? Because fly lines given the "redfish" designation are now made 1/2 line heavier to begin with. And I haven't notice any real drop in my ability to cast longer when needed (or any worse presentation).


What he said.


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## THTSARUMR (Apr 13, 2016)

Good stuff.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Scrob (Ha! My step son knows exactly what that means!  ) 

- How long have you've been fly casting?
- How long have you've been using that rod (Mangrove)?
- What Royal Wullf line are you throwing?
- What is the distances you are getting comfortably?
- What are the longest distance you can get out of that rod and still hold the loops together?
- What flies and size and weights of the flies you are throwing?
- What distances are you trying to accomplish?
- What fish are you targeting?
- What area do you live in?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

THTSARUMR - I take it you also have a Mangrove 8wt? If so, answer the same questions.


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## THTSARUMR (Apr 13, 2016)

Backwater said:


> THTSARUMR - I take it you also have a Mangrove 8wt? If so, answer the same questions.



My 8wt Mangrove is being built. I should have it in a week or two. I have the Mangrove 6wt that I really like and have owned it for about 8 months. I have been strictly fly fishing since '02. I can't answer the rest since I haven't fished the 8wt yet. I'm not too concerned since can I shoot my entire floating line casting the same flies with the 6wt. I'll give a thorough review once the 8 comes in.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

I rigged up two buddies of mine with 8 wt Mangrove rods and Wullf Bermuda Triangle Taper 8 wt line. That line is already a bit heavier than a standard 8 wt line. They had no problems hitting 60' and I was able to chuck it 80' without issue. It pairs up with that rod nicely and is actually my favorite all around fly line. Very versatile.

Stepping up to a 9 Wullf line would essentially give you a line closer to a 10 wt. Not recommended - over lining should be avoided as others have stated. It allows for bad mechanics to be developed. If you want distance, that means concentrating on good hauling and line shooting. I have a guide buddy that also competitive casts. Can cast a 5 wt 150 feet. That is not a typo. 5 wt 150 feet. That's 100% mechanics, no over lining.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

coconutgroves said:


> I rigged up two buddies of mine with 8 wt Mangrove rods and Wullf Bermuda Triangle Taper 8 wt line. That line is already a bit heavier than a standard 8 wt line. They had no problems hitting 60' and I was able to chuck it 80' without issue. It pairs up with that rod nicely and is actually my favorite all around fly line. Very versatile.
> 
> Stepping up to a 9 Wullf line would essentially give you a line closer to a 10 wt. Not recommended - over lining should be avoided as others have stated. It allows for bad mechanics to be developed. If you want distance, that means concentrating on good hauling and line shooting. I have a guide buddy that also competitive casts. Can cast a 5 wt 150 feet. That is not a typo. 5 wt 150 feet. That's 100% mechanics, no over lining.


What's your guide buddy's name?


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Backwater said:


> What's your guide buddy's name?


Rick Hartman - guides out of Arroyo City, TX on the Lower Laguna Madre.


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## labman1 (Dec 27, 2015)

coconutgroves said:


> Rick Hartman - guides out of Arroyo City, TX on the Lower Laguna Madre.



The guy can cast, he's a stud. Hartman is a great guide as well.


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## Scrob (Aug 26, 2015)

Scrob said:


> Have an 8wt TFO Mangrove rod with an 8wt Royal Wulff line, but I'm thinking of trying a 9wt line to increase distance. What are y'alls thoughts in over lining a rod? Ive read it should increase my distance but I don't want to sacrifice a gentle presentation.


Thanks for the feedback guys.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Scrob said:


> Thanks for the feedback guys.


Scrob, if you answer those questions, you can get more specific help on what's going on.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

coconutgroves said:


> I I have a guide buddy that also competitive casts. Can cast a 5 wt 150 feet. That is not a typo. 5 wt 150 feet. That's 100% mechanics, no over lining.


Ok true, but they also use specialize fly lines for those competitions. Just saying...


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> Ok true, but they also use specialize fly lines for those competitions. Just saying...


Probably casting a 3wt line on a 5wt rod. Don't know of any lines that are 150 ft. Still that's a long cast. What size fly can he turn over at that distance? Could you even set the hook at that length? Most fly lines have quite a bit of stretch as you get more line out.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

el9surf said:


> Probably casting a 3wt line on a 5wt rod. Don't know of any lines that are 150 ft. Still that's a long cast. What size fly can he turn over at that distance? Could you even set the hook at that length? Most fly lines have quite a bit of stretch as you get more line out.


They are not throwing flies, just a piece of fuzz or yarn. There are lines like SA Expert Distance lines, even custom lines with very elongated rear tapers to help carry more line in the air, long but thin heads and a long front taper to help turn over nothing flies like fuzz. Some of these fly lines are 130ft with backing made out of stretched mono, welded onto the flyline. They do match the rod weights with the fly lines and believe it or not, you can get longer distances out of a 5wt than you can an 8wt.


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

Backwater said:


> They are not throwing flies, just a piece of fuzz or yarn. There are lines like SA Expert Distance lines, even custom lines with very elongated rear tapers to help carry more line in the air, long but thin heads and a long front taper to help turn over nothing flies like fuzz. Some of these fly lines are 130ft with backing made out of stretched mono, welded onto the flyline. They do match the rod weights with the fly lines and believe it or not, you can get longer distances out of a 5wt than you can an 8wt.


The SA Expert distance 5wt has a head that is 68', the first 30' is regulation 5wt, 140 grains, the whole head comes in somewhere around 300 grains, (10wt), so the 5wt designation is somewhat misleading from the standpoint of what one of us would buy for actual fishing. These guys hold seventy or eighty feet of line in the air before letting go and the rods they use would not bend much with a regular 5wt line on them. Different species of equipment entirely.
JC


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

I know we got way off topic here but, tho the total head lengh is ridiculously long, you could load a rod within 30 to 40ft but the rear taper allowed for line control when carrying more line, as you indicated. you can't compar the actual line weight unless you throw the whole line on the scale.


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