# Leader / Tippet Diameter and Strength Chart



## Robpiat (Apr 15, 2016)

I was trying to figure out some leaders for an upcoming trip and was a little frustrated going back and forth to the manufacturers websites. I put this together so at a glance you can see the different Diameters etc. 

I don't think i can attach the excel but here is a jpg of it. Let me know if there are any other items that ought to be on it.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Rob, I use to try to over think it too back when I first started out.

My recommendation is keep it simple. When I'm building leader systems, I want all the materials in the butt section of the leader to be the same mfg and step it down every 10lbs. Btw, I prefer to use materials that come on the big ring spools (not the small 2-3" spools). Also, mason always seems to be a bigger dia than either mono or FC. So for example, let's say I'm building for an 8wt to a 9wt and I want to end up with the tippet being somewhere from a 12-15lb tippet (not including bite leader) and say I want my entire butt section to be FC since I will be fishing clousers (and not floating flies). So I'll use FC brand X, starting with 3ft of 40lb, then stepping down to 2ft of 30lb and end up with 18" of 20lb. That will be your butt section of your leader. If you add 2ft of tippet and about 18" of bite leader, you'll end up with about a 10ft long leader system.


----------



## Robpiat (Apr 15, 2016)

Thanks. I just don't like buying stuff twice. I am leaning towards straight fluoro since for the amount of leaders I use is small and I use the fluoro all the time for leaders on my braid for spinning rods.

Seems like the Rio Hard and Mason 30 is the same diameter as trilene 50. It may just be de-rated 50-60 Lb mono? That's an easy way to make it stiff for the lb test


----------



## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

Rather than using lb test for sizing, it might be easier to look at diameter, I use flouro in sizes that drop .004", starting at .023, to .019 to .015, tippet .011. Length of the butt section is 50% of total leader length, 30% transition, 20% tippet, basically a formula that Lefty laid out in his saltwater book sometime back in the preceding millennium. He also preferred limp material, positing that energy is transferred by weight not stiffness.
JC


----------



## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

You left off Ande the line that has caught many world records. I use it for my class tippet. I like the stretch and abrasion resistant. Then I use Yuzuri HD Floro for bite


----------



## salt_fly (Apr 23, 2012)

Robpiat said:


> I was trying to figure out some leaders for an upcoming trip and was a little frustrated going back and forth to the manufacturers websites. I put this together so at a glance you can see the different Diameters etc.
> 
> I don't think i can attach the excel but here is a jpg of it. Let me know if there are any other items that ought to be on it.


I have been looking for a good leader/tippet gauge. I guess they quit making the old Mike-Rite gauges because every fly shop seems to be out of stock. Does anyone have a suggestion for a good leader/tippet gauge?


----------



## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

Robpiat said:


> Thanks. I just don't like buying stuff twice.


Then fly fishing is not for you....  I have an entire shelf of different shock tippets and spools of mono and flouro, a drawer full of smaller spools of both, and another drawer full of leaders. Different occasions call for different things. Btw, there are only like three makers of mono and flouro lines out there - they are all repacked and sold by different brands. Cabelas is Seaguar.

My advice is go Umpqua. They make good, low diameter flouro.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Back years ago, I felt I needed to go to very supple (soft) and small diameter materials to make up my leaders. A lot of books and diagrams come from trout guys who fish ?X tippets and nothing flies. All that might me necessary to fish for tiny brookies in a still stream. But we are throwing clunky big nasty ugly flies in big wide open water and so.... presentation might still be in the back of our minds, it's not always necessary for the conditions we are fishing.

*Is there a balance?*

Is there a balance between stealth and the ability to turn over a narily heavy fly? Yes, to a certain degree. Like coconutgroves said, you should have at least several different setups in leader systems and IMO, there is no "end all" leader system, just like you need several different rod setups. Some people can take it to the extreme and I thought I was bad, but coconutgroves, you certainly have me beat by a long shot!  lol I too also use to have leader materials coming out of my ears. But as I get older (and hopefully wiser, lol), I've found than using a few brands helps me to limit how much junk I need to bring with me or have lying around at home (in stock piles).

Speaking of Lefty.... Lefty's favorite fly is his claim to fame fly, the "Deciever". For a saltwater fly, it's more or less a very simple nothing fly and therefore it's easy to get away with a soft leader material like mono. Besides, back when he wrote that book, no one ever heard of fluorocarbon and it didn't start getting popular in the fishing and fly fishing community until the mid 90's. I think 1993 was when I first got my hands on some for bite leader and tippet. but still used mono or mason for my butt leaders. Eventually, I figured out that my using FC, my whole leader system would be stealthier and the density can help get my flies down better to the fish (for those situations where it was needed).

So as far as mono goes, yes ANDY mono (as permitchaser mentioned) was king back in the day (70's, 80's....) but their mono was becoming inferior to other new brands out there and the mono wars began. Every brand and flavor of mono you could think of was out and competing for what was the best in class in the mono dept., but what they didn't count on was that Andy stayed true to their pound test rating. So in accordance to IGFA, if you were using 8lb tippet, and caught a record fish in that line class, their mono tested out true and one could accually achieve that record status. However, if that tipped was, say Berkley, the 8lb test rated mono could test out at 11.5lbs according to IGFA and therefore the fish would have to be bumped up to the 12lb test catagory and therefore, might not qualify for the biggest fish in that catagory slot. So many record breaker hunters stuck with Andy for that paticular reason, not that it was necessarily the best mono, which, IMO it's not! Only that they stick true to their rating. (let the "Boos fly! lol). As far as the materials in the rest or their leader system, including the butt section of he leader and the bite or shock leader, you can use steel cable for all they are concern with, as long as the tippet is at least 15" total length from knot to knot test out to the slot for which you are applying a record fish in and the bite to be 12" total length and can be made of 2000 lb test fiber optic cable or whatever else you desire. So IGFA basis it's testing and findings on the tippet alone!

But with the idea that in saltwater, bigger fish demand bigger and heavier flies (tho a buddy up in Northern NY is fishing giant streamers for those big brown trout they get on the upper Delaware River as well. So it's important to use material in the butt section of the leader to help turn over those bigger, more wind resistant and heavier flies. So diameter of material vs stiffness of the materials is key to helping with that, as well as the transition of the taper, in relation to the size and weight of the flies you are throwing. With mono, going too thin with a material that starts off being more soft and supple to begin with, throwing a heavier or larger fly, can cause the leader to collapse on itself and therefore causing the fly to never make it to the end of your tippet, much less your butt leader. On the flip side, having very stiff large dia materials like big lb test rated mason, might cause the leader to hinge at the connection of butt leader to fly line (with a nothing fly) and either smacking the fly on the water (like someone standing a piece of pvc pipe on one end, letting it go to drop on the ground), or the leader doesn't turn over at all and stops dead in it's tracks with a low energy cast and the fly drops 9ft before the end of the fly line. So balancing out what materials to use takes more intuition these days with all the different materials out there and the properties out there. If you can dial in that intuition, then you can pick up just about any assortment of materials and make an entire leader system, mixing and matching mason, FC and mono with various brands and properties. But that takes too many years of experience to figure that out. Btw, diameters and stiffness or suppleness properties can be all over the board with different brands of materials and different materials. To say I use one diameter formula, might work for one brand of mono, but will not work necessarily for other brands and other materials like mason and FC. Hence the reason I lean back towards a K.I.S.S. system.

He's my rule of thumb when building butt leaders a.k.a. butt section of the leader (not the tippet).

*Mono* is a floating material. It's thinner, softer and more supple than mason (generally clearer than mason but not light refractive (stealthier) as fluorocarbon) is going to work better for smaller surface or sub surface flies at or near the surface or "lightly" weighted flies that up don't want to sink to far and have more of a "hopping" action when you strip in and work the fly. It does not sink well. It's perfect for poppers, floating flies, and small subfurface flies. Ideal for bonefish on shallow sandy flats (matched with a FC tippet) or bream and bass popper and floating bugs. Also ideal for skinny water grass flats for tailing redfish with smaller flies.

NOTE: Steer away from colored mono. It's not as stealthy and buy mono in the large diameter arbor spools to reduce memory. I find that mono leader spools tend to have mono that is clearer, which is important.

*Mason* is also a floating material (tho doesn't float as high as mono, not as clear as mono but is the stiffest of all materials and has a high abraision resistance). It also has the largest diameter that all other materials. It's going to work better for big bulky and heavy flies for surface and subsurface. Again, heavy flies can be thrown with it in moderate depths of a couple of feet with the weighted fly having a more hopping action. It's a great leader material for throwing big bulky flies since the stiffness has the power (with enought energy in the fly line) to turn over bit surface or big bulky streamers. Also great for combat fishing, throwing those same flies around trees, mangrove roots and shallow rocks and coral. It does not sink relative to sinking flies and is the "least" stealthiest of the other 2 materials. Great for big narily floater streamers for shallow bull reds in the LA marshes.

*Fluorocarbon* is the stealthiest of all leader materials and some would argue to have the highest abrasion resistance. It also has a thinner diameter than mason and some mono. It is significantly stiffer than mono but not quite as stiff as mason. Therefore, you can get away with a higher pound test rating than with mason because of it's diameter, and a lower lb test rating than mono because of it's stiffness. Fluorocarbon's biggest trait is stealth, where it "refracts or bends light) out of the material at or near it's entry point and therefore causes it to be clearer and blend more with the depth lightness. In other words, as the material sinks, it will not hold any more light than the surrounding water at that depth, whereas with mono and mason, light will travel thru the material (much like a piece of fiber optic cable) from the surface or at the knot, through the material down into the depth of the water, resulting in a surface light (or higher water column light) being detected in depths further down, which makes the material being more detected at greater depths. It's not so obvious where the material is in a horizontal position from start to finish, but more obvious in a vertical when surface light travels down to a greater depth with lower light. And with FC, even in a horizontal position, the light refracted out of the material cause it to be stealthier, even on the surface. Fluorocarbon (FC) also is denser and a heavier material, so it tends to sink, almost at a rate of an intermediate fly line. So with that said, it is the choice material to use with an intermediate sink tip line, a full intermediate sinking line or a full sink fly line. With a floating fly line, it helps to reduce the weight of the fly to still get down to the desired depth with less weight (like going with smaller clouser lead eyes with the use of FC). So with that said, it's great for tippet materials and bite or shock tippet or leader, even with mason or mono, if stealth and abrasion resistance is a concern using it with subsurface streamers or sinking flies like clousers. Using it for the entire butt section of your leader helps to get those bigger sub surfaces flies to turn over better than mono, tho not as powerful as mason. However, it helps to sink better and relative to the fly. It also allows your subsurface or sinking flies to move in more of a horizontal action, rather than an up and down hopping action, which some fish prefer.

NOTE: Be care to purchase 100% fluorocarbon leader material because some of the cheaper FC like that you spool up a spinning reel will be fluorocarbon coated mono core. I prefer the larger spools (comes in 25yrs to 30meters) since FC is bad with memory and harder to stretch out. So the larger spools reduces the memory in the line.

Ok then, back on topic. Again, what I recommend is buying materials for the rod sizes, tippet and bite leader material needed. What ever you buy, be it expensive Umpqua or cheaper stuff from Walmart, buy all the leader material that you will be building the butt section of your leaders, using the same brand and model. That way, with a K.I.S.S. system, you only need to worry about the pound test for saltwater. So with FC, I'll stick with one brand, mono another and mason yet another. You can mix and match your tippet and bite leader with not much problems. So I may use a mono butt leader, FC tippet and bite leader. (etc, etc....).

K.I.S.S. to you and kiss for my wife for putting up with me writing this book on the subject!  lol

Ted Haas


----------



## Robpiat (Apr 15, 2016)

I appreciate all the insight. I plan to either buy or tie some leaders for an upcoming Belize trip. Let me tell you about my last experience and perhaps you guys can make a recommendation on a recipe. 

- I don't fish enough / use enough leaders where cost is an issue. If all Fluoro is best, its worth it to me. I go through on average 1-2 leaders a year 
- I get to fly fish saltwater 0-5 days a year. Thats not likely to change any time soon so it's hard for me to really get good as I am rusty the next time out. 
- My casting is rarely the issue....I get plenty of fish on but "playing the fish" I have made many mistakes.
- I don't mind using a mix of mono / fluoro if that works best for stiffness/presentation
- I had 80% of the bones I hooked last trip break off. An experienced angler may have landed most of them
- Bones were abundant and They didn't appear to be tippet shy. I used 2x b/c thats what was recommended. Most of the bones in the area are <5 Lbs

I know most of my bones that brokeoff were technique. Looking back on it I thik i'd like to try to use a sturdier leader even if it means less hookups. Having IGFA class tippet is not relevant to me. 

Would a straight fluoro leader that is 40-50 lb butt tapering down to 12-15lb tippet be the "best" for this scenario?


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

To answer your last question on your last reply, the answer is "Yes!" However, No it's not worth it for you to do all that. That info being known, just buy a few tapered leaders and some fluorocarbon tippet materials and be done with it. Your not out there enough to have a whole inventory of leader building materials and then having to store them. Again, this is what I get for not asking questions before I write a novel on the subject. We I hope someone else learns a little about it in any case.

So what I would do since those bonefish and permit flies are relatively small, depending on what water depth the fish will be holding, I would pick up about 3 to 4 sets of FC tapered leader 9ft 12-16lb at the tippet end of the leader. I'd also have about 3-4 mono tapered leaders since you can be throwing small
bonefish flies in shallow waters. Get them in the same pound test and then just add a 2ft piece of 12lb FC to the end of it. 

Then bring a 3 spools of 10lb, 12lb &15-16lb tippet fluorocarbon tippet material to have some versatility(since there will be no floating flies used and stealth is key for bonefishing. If you are trying to keep it simple for bonefish and those small permit, then I would just bring and use 12lb test FC tippet material. I'd also bring some 20lb and 30lb FC leader material for toothy fish, as well as some Kinky2 wire for cudas and small sharks if you want to chase those..

For me, If I was going ultra simple and minimulistic, then 2 7ft tapered leaders each to 16lb test, 2 in both mono and FC, then add about 2ft to 30" of 12lb test FC tippet for a total length of 9-9.5ft. You can tie a loop at the end of that tapered leader and on one end of the tippet and then just do a loop to loop connection and then change the tippet out when needed. Then keep a spool of 20-25lb FC to use as bite leader for the toothy critters. Anything else needed, your guide should have.

Good luck!

Ted Haas


----------



## salt_fly (Apr 23, 2012)

Robpiat said:


> I was trying to figure out some leaders for an upcoming trip and was a little frustrated going back and forth to the manufacturers websites. I put this together so at a glance you can see the different Diameters etc.
> 
> I don't think i can attach the excel but here is a jpg of it. Let me know if there are any other items that ought to be on it.


Anybody with a good leader/tippet gauge to recommend? Still looking....


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

salt_fly said:


> Anybody with a good leader/tippet gauge to recommend? Still looking....


You mean a caliper/ micrometer?


----------



## salt_fly (Apr 23, 2012)

Backwater said:


> You mean a caliper/ micrometer?


I guess one could use a digital micrometer? The kind of tippet gauges I have seen are made of metal and have slots of varying sizes to slide the tippet into. Would a cheap micrometer work? Is that what most people use?


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2016)

Looks similar to the leader/tippet charts in Soucie's Field Guide To Fishing Facts. Mike Rite for saltwater is better than an Orvis leader gauge one squeezes together but for freshwater a TipTech is about as good as is needed as long as it's not for full leader construction since it's only 0X-8X.


----------



## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

salt_fly said:


> Anybody with a good leader/tippet gauge to recommend? Still looking....


http://stillwaterflyshop.com/fishpo...3IzIejJ7eXihPH11xzywraLLarwq2GCiysaAt_b8P8HAQ

It's shaped like a fish and says Fishpond..... So it's clearly worth 20$. Pay no attention to the fact that it looks like a fish shaped bottle opener found in every gas station in the state...


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

salt_fly said:


> I guess one could use a digital micrometer? The kind of tippet gauges I have seen are made of metal and have slots of varying sizes to slide the tippet into. Would a cheap micrometer work? Is that what most people use?


And.... you're looking for this for saltwater leaders?


----------



## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Backwater said:


> And.... you're looking for this for saltwater leaders?


That's what I was wondering. Couldn't you determine what you needed to tie in by looking at the knots from tying the leader? For instance if I'm broken off below my second knot, I know I need to clip that knot and tie back in a piece of 20lb FC.

But I'm guessing he wants it to gauge what size to tie in on a tapered (not hand tied) leader to avoid messing up the taper.

When fishing salt I just use regular FC in 14-12-10-8 lb for tippet, depending on situation. 

As opposed to "X" designations if fishing Trout..... 
Don't even get me started on how pedantic that system is. I understand that it started with measuring silk lines and what not, but at this point, why not just have something more intuitive than the "11 rule".


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2016)

LowHydrogen said:


> http://stillwaterflyshop.com/fishpo...3IzIejJ7eXihPH11xzywraLLarwq2GCiysaAt_b8P8HAQ
> 
> It's shaped like a fish and says Fishpond..... So it's clearly worth 20$. Pay no attention to the fact that it looks like a fish shaped bottle opener found in every gas station in the state...


Anyone get a pubmatic download when opening up Stillwater's link ?


----------



## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

I just tried it again, it took me to the page.... No downloads.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

LowHydrogen said:


> I'm guessing he wants it to gauge what size to tie in on a tapered (not hand tied) leader to avoid messing up the taper.


Salt Fly, Is this the reason?


----------



## salt_fly (Apr 23, 2012)

Backwater said:


> Salt Fly, Is this the reason?


Yeah, that's pretty much it. If building my own leaders, I think that the actual diameter is more important to get the taper right than the lb. rating on the spool. Plus, I just like gadgets and tools.


----------



## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

salt_fly said:


> Yeah, that's pretty much it. If building my own leaders, I think that the actual diameter is more important to get the taper right than the lb. rating on the spool. Plus, I just like gadgets and tools.


The problem is, if you were just concentrating on diameters from various materials, especially with saltwater leaders, it will not behave right, because between different mfgs within each material (i.e mono, mason or FC), their properties are changing. Back 25-30 yrs ago ( just talking mono here). You could basically count on mono properties being the same and therefore using a gauge to chk diameter (cause you couldn't trust their published dia. size?) could work, crossing over from brand to brand.

Today, properties have change drastically from Mfg to Mfg, not to mention between Mono, thru to mason and fluorobarbons. So they want their materials to be better than their competitors, according how they see the benefits of what they are changing them. Thinner, stiffer, more supple, color, coatings, memory, abraision resistance, knot strenght..... The list goes on and on.

You can't take a guage and base a leader design solely on diameter and use (again, just talking mono as an example) Andy, P-Line- Suffix and Stren and expect them to behaive enough to flow evenly from start to finish. One can be soft and supple, one could be thinner than normal for it's lb test. One could be stiffer than others and the other can be thin with a higher tinsel strenght. The end results could be hinging or not being able to transfer the energy properly from the fly line to the fly and then it would turn over the fly and collapsing onto itself. Aside from that, crossing back and forth between materials like mono. mason and fluorocarbon and now you just multiplied that problem.

Again, going back to a more simple system whereas the Kiss system works better in this scenario, sticking with the same Brand and model of line or whatever you are using through the entire butt section, allow for consistent and even flow from large to the smallest diameter or in this case, pound test. Then step downs can happen in 10lb test increments (and NOT dia), up until you go past 20lb test. If you were going to a tippet of 10lbs or less, then you could add a 15-16lb test piece. Otherwise, using a tipped of 16lb to 12lb test is ok to tie straight to the last piece of the butt section which would be 20lb test.

One note, Mason is significantly large in diameter and stiffer. If you are using a recipe for saltwater leaders (i.e. a leader for redfish or stripers for various weight rods), then you can step down the mason by 10lb test. In other words, 20lb mason will be about the same size (detected by the eye) as 30lb mon and FC). So keep that in mind.

I was out tarpon fishing and noticed that 80lb FC with one brand was thinner than 60lb test in another brand, when changing out bite leaders.

And on that note, it's not as important to keep the same brand with tipp and bite leaders, as it is with the butt section of the leader. I may use all mono leader and add in a piece of fluorocarbon tippet at the end for stealth and abrasion resistance.

Whatever you do, try not to over think it and get too complicated. I've seen things like that actually keep people from fishing. So whip a leader out, go fish it, catch fish and have fun! That's what it's really all about anyways, right? 


(one of many under slot snook from yesterday. Fun!)


Ted Haas


----------

