# Line Weights



## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

It is pretty silly. The AFTMA developed a standard so everybody was on the same page. I can see a rod rated for a certain line weight that may work better with a half or full size line better for a particular situation. Redfishing in the marsh where many of our shots are very close and require an immediate presentation. So a rod rated for a 7 may fish better in that scenario with an 8wt. But that rod should still, for most fishing uses, require a 7wt. 

I am with Vertigo. This is just plain dumb. And if you want to get really confused. Try and pick out lines for two handed spey rods! They aren't even the same animal at all. I have one of the all time loved spey rods. Sage TCX 12' 6" 7 wt. They call it the Deathstar. How in the hell they call that a 7wt is totally beyond me. It fishes like a 9 or even a 10 wt.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Vertigo said:


> Shopping for fly line for my "fast action" 5 wt, I came across a couple of so-called 5 wt lines that had a head weight that falls closer to AFFTA specs for 7 wt and many more lines closer to 6 wt. What's up with this? If a "fast action" rod is sold as a 5 wt but performs best with 6/7 wt line, isn't the rod really a 6/7 wt? Have manufacturers become so enamored with distance that they're knowingly mislabeling rods? Are today's 5 wts yesterdays 7 wts? When will this rod-creep stop?


According to who and according to what casting styles?? Curious, what will the rod be used for?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Just because a head weighs a certain weight doesn't mean the whole head will be out of the rod tip before it loads the rod. There are short fat heads that you can pop out with only 20ft of head sticking out to very long thin heads line bonefish lines that that need more out to load but still not getting all of the rear taper of the head out of the rod tip. So the head weight can be relative to it's use and purpose.

I suggest just keeping it simple. Decide what the majority of the use for that rod will be and go try a couple of lines at a local fly shop that feels best for that rod and your casting style and go for that one.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Check out RIO Bonefish Quickshooter WF5F , RIO Grand, SA SharkWave Siege, SA SharkWave and Mastery Anadro, etc., etc. One of these lines has a weight of 210 grains, which is AFFTA spec for an 8 wt. Look further, and you'll find a lot of lines in the 160 grain range, which is right on the nose for 6 wt.

From the advertising: "The InTouch RIO Grand is a full line size heavier than the industry standard, and features more weight distributed towards the front of the line to easily load faster action fly rods."


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

Vertigo said:


> From the advertising: "The InTouch RIO Grand is a full line size heavier than the industry standard, and features more weight distributed towards the front of the line to easily load faster action fly rods."


When you add the back half of RIO's description: "_The ultra-low stretch ConnectCore provides groundbreaking levels of sensitivity for intuitively better cast timing, easier line lift and sharp, precise mends." _It tells me that this line is made for standing balls deep in a river with trees and bushes on the bank and need a line to make short accurate forward and back casts with frozen hands, and then after the cast you have to quickly mend considerable distance to keep your flies from dragging else you're not going to catch any fish.

E

Everything happens for a reason

Unfortunately it appears RIO has discontinued the regular Bonefish line in 5wt that I was going to recommend if you like a "standard" line. BTW I also have the RIO Bonefish Quickshooter WF5F that I will use for Redfish.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

MariettaMike said:


> BTW I also have the RIO Bonefish Quickshooter WF5F that I will use for Redfish.


I was also thinking about the Bonefish Quickshooter in WF5F for Redfish. How's it working for you?


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I use the Rio outbound saltwater 8wt line with a 330 gram head for my reddington predator. Slightly over a regular 8wt. Also use a sage bass taper 230 grain head on my 6wt predator. So yeah nothing is really true to line wt these days.


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## MariettaMike (Jun 14, 2012)

Vertigo said:


> I was also thinking about the Bonefish Quickshooter in WF5F for Redfish. How's it working for you?


Haven't taken the 5 wt line out of the box yet, but have been using this line on my 8 wt and have been happy.

I'm selling my 7 wt outfit to move down to a 6wt and will use an Airflo Tropical Ridge Clear line on it. The head length/taper is in the middle of the RIO Bonefish & Bonefish Quickshooter. I heard rumor that Airflo was going to make this line in a 5 wt, but haven't seen that become reality.


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

The fortunate thing is that current rod technology allows a large grain window so loading an eight wt with with the equivalent of an eleven seems to be OK, but some people I know who use Outbounds tend to prefer a line weight lighter than the rod designation.
JC


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Vertigo said:


> I was also thinking about the Bonefish Quickshooter in WF5F for Redfish. How's it working for you?


You'll also see that the Rio Bonefish quickshooter and the Rio Redfish is about the same line.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Backwater said:


> You'll also see that the Rio Bonefish quickshooter and the Rio Redfish is about the same line.


Yes, but do they make the Redfish in a 5 wt?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Vertigo said:


> Yes, but do they make the Redfish in a 5 wt?


Idk. Ask our boy Eric (Paint it Black) He's the new 5wt guru! 






Btw, ya never said what you are using it for mostly.


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## Blue Zone (Oct 22, 2011)

Vertigo said:


> Shopping for fly line for my "fast action" 5 wt, I came across a couple of so-called 5 wt lines that had a head weight that falls closer to AFFTA specs for 7 wt and many more lines closer to 6 wt. What's up with this? If a "fast action" rod is sold as a 5 wt but performs best with 6/7 wt line, isn't the rod really a 6/7 wt? Have manufacturers become so enamored with distance that they're knowingly mislabeling rods? Are today's 5 wts yesterdays 7 wts? When will this rod-creep stop?


Maybe the Chinaman put the wrong number on your rod?


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## SC on the FLY (Sep 16, 2015)

My favorite 5wt lines are the Royal Wulff Triangle Tapers , not sure if there is a better 5wt line ,imo


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Blue Zone said:


> Maybe the Chinaman put the wrong number on your rod?


I thought the TFO BVK was made in Korea.


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## Thiago Zanetti FSB (Feb 11, 2016)

Royal Wulff just released the new BERMUDA TT5F for saltwater

http://royalwulff.com/products/2-tone/

*Newly added, 5wt Bermuda Line.*
*
Size Length Grain Weight
5 30′ (there is no information about the line weight, but looks like around 175)
6 30′ 200
7 30′ 225
8 30′ 243
9 30′ 289
10 30′ 310
11 30′ 417
12 30′ 463
13 30′ 525
All lengths are in feet. Specifications subject to change without notice.
*


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Blue Zone said:


> Maybe the Chinaman put the wrong number on your rod?


Not mockin you vertigo, but that's too funny!


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Backwater said:


> Not mockin you vertigo, but that's too funny!


Ha ha but don't laugh. I did some work for an English company that was coming out with a line of saltwater rods. So they sent me an 8 and a 10 wt. WAY wrong. The 8wt was every bit as heavy, and in fact beefier than any of my 10 wts and the 10 wt was heavier and beefier than both my 12 wts. I tried a bunch of different lines and the 8 needed a 10 (and an 11 was ok) and the 10 wt barely worked with my 12s (I didn't have any 13s to try). One of two conclusions I came to. Never figured out which it was because I dumped them.
1. They mismarked the rods.
2. They had no flipping clue what they were doing.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ifsteve said:


> Ha ha but don't laugh. I did some work for an English company that was coming out with a line of saltwater rods. So they sent me an 8 and a 10 wt. WAY wrong. The 8wt was every bit as heavy, and in fact beefier than any of my 10 wts and the 10 wt was heavier and beefier than both my 12 wts. I tried a bunch of different lines and the 8 needed a 10 (and an 11 was ok) and the 10 wt barely worked with my 12s (I didn't have any 13s to try). One of two conclusions I came to. Never figured out which it was because I dumped them.
> 1. They mismarked the rods.
> 2. They had no flipping clue what they were doing.


Do tell... We like dirt! Ha! Just Kidding!


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

Ted, the company actually has some killer freshwater rods. I have a 4wt and it is a dynamite dry fly rod. And their small trout reels are very nice too. And they make some very good two handed rods. They just failed in their attempt to get into the saltwater game. The problem was that they wanted to make beefy rods that would take a bunch of abuse. And to that end they succeeded. But they were so damn heavy that nobody would fish them.

And since the stuff they currently market is dang nice I will refrain from naming them. On the other hand to give them credit, they quickly dropped that line of rods and stuck to what they are good at.


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## KnotHome (Jul 21, 2009)

Check out the "Common Cents" rating system. It's a more precise, objective system for determining rod stiffness and action. I believe it was Pac Bay that was starting to use it to label some of their custom blanks a few years ago. It's great for custom builders, but I think it'd be really useful if it caught on in the production industry. I'm not holding my breath though.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

http://www.common-cents.info/

A lot of technical stuff there that is geared more to rod designers.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

My Chinese fly rod may have been mislabeled, but the fish don't seem to care. Question: What's better than catching a max slot Redfish on a fly you designed and tied yourself and doing it in the middle of winter when most folks are holed up by the fire freezing their a$$es off? Answer, doing it on a rig that cost less than $150 all up including shipping and tax.

I caught this guy this morning casting along a rocky bank on an outgoing tide. He didn't hit with much force, and at first I thought maybe it was a snag. Once he started moving he swam directly toward the boat at a slow pace, so I was thinking he was pretty small. I started stripping line in since he picked up the lure about 60 feet out and I didn't think I'd need to get him on the reel. Once he figured out he was hooked, he took off and carried all the stripped line back out with him and then some. He put himself on the reel, and the game was on. He tested the rod pretty severely, making a couple of runs under the boat, but after a few minutes I got him to the net. He measured in at almost exactly 27 inches and had some shoulders on him. He weighed in at 8# even, which is pretty heavy for this time of year.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Vertigo said:


> My Chinese fly rod.....



*Nice!!! *

Hey is that the chinese reel? It looks pretty good. Is it holding up?

I'd still be huddled up by the fire if I was up there with you guys! Ha!


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Backwater said:


> *Nice!!! *
> 
> Hey is that the chinese reel? It looks pretty good. Is it holding up?


The reel is Chinese made, but not the $18 dollar one. I paid $50 used off of eBay. New, it's about $80 on eBay, less if you order direct from China. It's CNC machine cut out of aircraft grade 6061 aluminum bar stock has a sealed carbon multi-disk drag and is hard anodized against salt. It's a little soon to say how it's holding up. Ask me again in a few years. As of now, all I can say is it looks well made, the drag is very smooth and it's light. I'm guessing that the same factory in China makes similar reels that sell under a brand name for $200 to $300.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Vertigo said:


> The reel is Chinese made, but not the $18 dollar one. I paid $50 used off of eBay. New, it's about $80 on eBay, less if you order direct from China. It's CNC machine cut out of aircraft grade 6061 aluminum bar stock has a sealed carbon multi-disk drag and is hard anodized against salt. It's a little soon to say how it's holding up. Ask me again in a few years. As of now, all I can say is it looks well made, the drag is very smooth and it's light. I'm guessing that the same factory in China makes similar reels that sell under a brand name for $200 to $300.


Is that the new 7wt? Would you consider it fast, extra fast, moderate fast or progressive? Tip flex or mid flex? On the reel, do you know if the drag is sealed or can you see the drag washers?


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

The 7 wt is not quite as fast as my TFO BVK, but faster than a couple of my older TFO rods. I has a really nice feel, very light, easy to cast and (with a helpful wind) throws a RIO Redfish WF7F almost to the backing with a real fly rigged for fishing. I'll be sorry if I ever break it. The drag on the reel is sealed.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Vertigo said:


> The 7 wt is not quite as fast as my TFO BVK, but faster than a couple of my older TFO rods. I has a really nice feel, very light, easy to cast and (with a helpful wind) throws a RIO Redfish WF7F almost to the backing with a real fly rigged for fishing. I'll be sorry if I ever break it. The drag on the reel is sealed.


I hate to break away from the OP, but it would be great if you can get ahold of a BVK 7wt to get a true comparison, because an 8wt will feel faster than a 7wt, since it's a little stiffer.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't think an 8 wt of similar action to a 7 wt, both rigged with the same type line should feel any faster or slower. To me the action of the rod displays itself in the rhythm of the cast rather than the force exerted.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Vertigo said:


> I don't think an 8 wt of similar action to a 7 wt, both rigged with the same type line should feel any faster or slower. To me the action of the rod displays itself in the rhythm of the cast rather than the force exerted.


There's a difference.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

I always check the actual grains of a line (if published) and compare against the standards. Had a friend buy the Rio Redfish line for his 8 and couldn't believe what it did to his rod. That's a 10 wt line, not an 8 wt.

It may load the rod quicker, but that line gains mass as speed increases, which actually will have a heavier affect on the rod and the caster. At that point, casting becomes counter productive since more energy is required to cast an overlined rod, and the rod is designed to load and flex based on a certain line weight.

Now some really casters might say they can throw a 10 wt line on a 6 wt rod without issue (I've done it, and caugh tarpon that way, I blame too many beers the night before, btw), but tuning in the right line weight to a rod is essential. That's why I eliminate any question and go with a line that is the closest to the standard grain specifications.

By the way, I use an easy analogy to describe rod weight to novices. I describe that the higher number indicates a heavier, thicker rod. I then use my fingers to compare thickness to weight - I use the thickness of my pinky as a 6 wt, the ring finger as a 7 wt, middle as the 8wt, index as a 9wt, and the thumb as a 10wt. Most people's fingers go up in thickness that way and it is an easy way to visualize the thickness of rod weights this way. The jump from a 9 wt to a 10 wt is substantial, nearly the same as a thickness of the index finger (a 9) is to the thumb (the 10).

Boy, I am going to really get made fun of with that last paragraph. Probably by Backwater....


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

What if you have sausage fingers like mine? Ha! 

JJ


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Coconutgrove, You make good points about over lining the rod with lines that are too heavy for what the rod was designed for.

TFO threw your theory about rod thickness, out with that ultra thin Impact they have. Their 10wt looks and feels like a 7wt. Still, overall your thoughts do have merit. Your basic analogy of explaining comparing rod sizes to rod thickness, to novices. But it can get technical for those who want to know the technical stuff about it all.

I have several rods that are either thinner than the norm or thicker than the norm. Those can change due to mandrels and tapers, using more or less modules carbon material and the weave of such materials and how it's wrapped. The less modules the materials (density or carbon in the cloth), the wider the rod needs to be to achieve a faster rod. The higher the density, the narrower it needs to be to slow the action down. There is so many variables of materials used, weave of cloth materials, techniques of wrapping, thickness of materials used, resins used and width of the rod itself *vs* the desired action a rod builder is trying to achieve.

Case in point, the Hardy Zephyrus SWS is much thicker than a Classic Loomis GLX. A classic GLX and NRX are somewhat close in size, but has 2 completely different actions.


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## coconutgroves (Sep 23, 2013)

7, 8 and 9 weights all are very similar in rod width to me. Moving to a 10 is a big jump on most rods out there. And sorry to hear


Backwater said:


> What if you have sausage fingers like mine? Ha!
> 
> JJ


Well that explains how you catch so many fish Backwater - you are putting sausage grease on the flies when you rig em up! So maybe your example would be 10 through 14 weight rods.


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## KnotHome (Jul 21, 2009)

coconutgroves said:


> I always check the actual grains of a line (if published) and compare against the standards. Had a friend buy the Rio Redfish line for his 8 and couldn't believe what it did to his rod. That's a 10 wt line, not an 8 wt.
> 
> Now some really casters might say they can throw a 10 wt line on a 6 wt rod without issue (I've done it, and caugh tarpon that way, I blame too many beers the night before, btw), but tuning in the right line weight to a rod is essential. That's why I eliminate any question and go with a line that is the closest to the standard grain specifications.


This is where the Common Cents system really shines. Comparing how a rod measures against the standard AND knowing the true mass of a line would make it very easy to match the 2.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

Granted a 10 wt is heavier and more work to cast than a 5 wt, but the action of a rod has little to do with the work needed to cast it or the weight of the rod. Action is determined by the time required for the rod to cycle between loaded and unloaded. For a given line weight and effort to cast, a stiffer rod bends less than a softer one and thus has a shorter cycle time and a faster action. This is all reflected in the rhythm of the cast. The good news is that a stiffer/faster action rod can store more energy when bent the same as a slow action rod, and thus cast further. The bad news is a fast action rod requires better timing because of the shorter cycle and more strength is required to input that extra energy. Fast action rods are good for anglers who need to cast for distance, are well coordinated, have a strong casting arm and a well developed style. The rest of us will do better with medium to slow action rods. Want to slow down a fast action rod? Increase the weight of the line, which will cause more rod bend and thus increase the cycle time.

My theory: Fly fishermen everywhere want to have the latest greatest gear and they see the pros using fast action rods. Fast sounds best. Who wants to be slow? Rod companies understand this trend and make lots of fast action rods. Unfortunately, the average angler can't really get the best use from a fast action rod, so the line makers start selling over weight line to go with these fast action rods which slows them down to a speed the average guy can handle. Thus today's fast action 5 wt rod is probably yesterday's medium action 6 or 7 wt and is lined with the equivalent of AFFTA 6 or 7 wt line.


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## jonrconner (May 20, 2015)

Fast and slow action are determined by the design of the taper, i.e. Where it is designed to bend, a slow rod will bend deep into the shaft, this is accomplished by stiffening up the top part of the rod, forcing the bend down into the mid and butt sections. A fast rod is soft at the top and stiff through the mid and butt which results in a longer lever, smaller loops and higher line speed.
JC


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