# END OUR DISAGREEMENT



## Str8-Six (Jul 6, 2015)

Is he buying new or used?


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## Longjohnsenskiff (Apr 23, 2018)

Str8-Six said:


> Is he buying new or used?


Should have specified, used boat.


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## Longjohnsenskiff (Apr 23, 2018)

Note: the models that I posted are not necessarily in his price range, nor do they fit the bill for the extra skinny drafting boat he wants, other than maybe the lostmen. I’m just speaking about higher end boat builders in general.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

LOL if you're looking to *end* a disagreement about skiffs you've come to the *exact wrong place*!

That said, a high end boat will not last a lifetime if it's not taken care of, and a quality mid level will last forever if it is. It has as much to do with use and owner as it does craftsmanship. I fished out of an old ass Gheenoe last weekend that has never had any work and it's still fishing and looking perfectly fine. 

Secondly, there are a ton of "mid-level" priced skiffs now with extremely high quality that will last a lifetime and still look good. If you're talking about holding re-sale value that's a different story. If you're talking about if lasting a lifetime that implies you're going to keep it a really long time so resale should come second to cost effective quality, and function. 

Just my opinion.


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## Longjohnsenskiff (Apr 23, 2018)

LowHydrogen said:


> LOL if you're looking to *end* a disagreement about skiffs you've come to the *exact wrong place*!
> 
> That said, a high end boat will not last a lifetime if it's not taken care of, and a quality mid level will last forever if it is. It has as much to do with use and owner as it does craftsmanship. I fished out of an old ass Gheenoe last weekend that has never had any work and it's still fishing and looking perfectly fine.
> 
> ...


You’re absolutely right, and he maintains everything he owns, very well. The problem that we run into when we get to this point in the arguement is, these mid level skiffs haven’t been around very long. So then you’re still paying top dollar for them, just because their new. He thinks I’m crazy for wanting a 2002 hellsbay repowered and rewired I’m 2015, Over a 2015 ankona shadowcast.


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## LowHydrogen (Dec 31, 2015)

Longjohnsenskiff said:


> You’re absolutely right, and he maintains everything he owns, very well. The problem that we run into when we get to this point in the arguement is, these mid level skiffs haven’t been around very long. So then you’re still paying top dollar for them, just because their new. He thinks I’m crazy for wanting a 2002 hellsbay repowered and rewired I’m 2015, Over a 2015 ankona shadowcast.


I can see your point, and would agree if the process involved a new complex technology but the glass boat building process is refined and well known, the chances of someone screwing up on a scale to effect longevity isn't likely. Look at all the old Johnsen, Hewes, Maverick etc, most issues come from wood being used or a bad design more than lamination issues. Rare occurrences excluded i.e. 17T stringer issues, fuel tanks not getting along with Ethanol fuels. People are doing first time DIY fiberglass on major rehab and structural work successfully with nothing more than internet research, careful planning and taking their time.

Knowledge and material based information is much more available to builders now. Not nearly as much trial and error involved these days. Ankona, BT, EC, etc... have been around long enough for any real issues to make themselves known and be common knowledge via the internet. Especially this site or The Hull Truth. These guys are not afraid to make a problem known to the world.


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## Longjohnsenskiff (Apr 23, 2018)

LowHydrogen said:


> I can see your point, and would agree if the process involved a new complex technology but the glass boat building process is refined and well known, the chances of someone screwing up on a scale to effect longevity isn't likely. Look at all the old Johnsen, Hewes, Maverick etc, most issues come from wood being used or a bad design more than lamination issues. Rare occurrences excluded i.e. 17T stringer issues, fuel tanks not getting along with Ethanol fuels. People are doing first time DIY fiberglass on major rehab and structural work successfully with nothing more than internet research, careful planning and taking their time.
> 
> Knowledge and material based information is much more available to builders now. Not nearly as much trial and error involved these days. Ankona, BT, EC, etc... have been around long enough for any real issues to make themselves known and be common knowledge via the internet. Especially this site or The Hull Truth. These guys are not afraid to make a problem known to the world.


I’ll tell you this, both him and I thing that the bt mosquitoe is one for the most beautiful boats made. If they perform as good as they look, I’ll be buying a used one is a few years. Although I do consider bt to be one of the higher end builders.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Longjohnsenskiff said:


> He thinks I’m crazy for wanting a 2002 hellsbay repowered and rewired in 2015, Over a 2015 ankona shadowcast.


I'd side with you on that particular item. A quality hull can always be rewired or repowered over the years. The hull is your foundation. Never skimp on your hull...

"Low", "medium", or "high" is all subjective.


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## Pierson (Mar 16, 2016)

Longjohnsenskiff said:


> He thinks I’m crazy for wanting a 2002 hellsbay repowered and rewired I’m 2015, Over a 2015 ankona shadowcast.


I have literally been contemplating this exact question for a couple years now and after a lot of research, questions, answers, build sheets, and classifieds, I side with you. 

If you have the means to wait a little and stretch that budget another $10,000 and you are a serious fisherman who will appreciate the things that makes a Hells Bay a Hells Bay, you will be so much more satisfied with your purchase. You will also likely be close to breaking even when and if you decide to sell it.

If you cant stretch that budget, and you just want to get on the water, and you dont want to wait for that awesome deal, go buy that 2015 ankona! It will still be great! Different strokes for different folks!


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## jlindsley (Nov 24, 2015)

Longjohnsenskiff said:


> So my buddy and I have been arguing about boats for 6 months, help us with real world opinions. I’m not saying that I’m 100% correct because I have honestly haven’t owned either type of boat. I’ve been on an east cape lostmen once, hellsbay marquesa 5 times, and I’ve logged about 400 hours on a maverick hpxv2. I have never been on a mid level skiff. Ive owned gheenoes and a johnsen skiff. He has limited experience on high end, and mid level skiffs.
> 
> The argument: he wants to get a mid level skiff, such as ankona. For around 15k. I’m trying to get him to invest in a boat that cost just a bit more around 20k and go with a skiff that could last a lifetime and hold value. He’s caught up on boat age and engine hours not longevity.
> Overall it’s his choice and he will buy what he wants, and I’ll accept him reguardless I guess. Haha
> ...


Ankona has a 10 year structural warranty and you would have a new motor warranty. I would rather buy a new ankona than a 20 year old hells bay for $25k with no warranty. This would go for the other "mid tier" boats out there as well. I think both will last a "lifetime" but then again most of us don't buy a boat for a lifetime as needs change. Hells bay has had ownership changes and a bankruptcy in the past 20 years as well.


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## Longjohnsenskiff (Apr 23, 2018)

Thanks guys, this isn’t a win or lose. This is me trying the help a friend make what I think is a better decision. I know I’ll be getting a hellsbay or ecc when the funds are available. I don’t hate on these other skiff companies, I just feel like its seriously undercutting the guys who made the skiff industry what i


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## Longjohnsenskiff (Apr 23, 2018)

jlindsley said:


> Ankona has a 10 year structural warranty and you would have a new motor warranty. I would rather buy a new ankona than a 20 year old hells bay for $25k with no warranty. This would go for the other "mid tier" boats out there as well. I think both will last a "lifetime" but then again most of us don't buy a boat for a lifetime as needs change. Hells bay has had ownership changes and a bankruptcy in the past 20 years as well.


I’d like to see numbers on how many people have had to bring hells bay in on hull defects, I’d like to believe the number is low. I understand the ownership changes aswell, I don’t know if that has anything to do with the integrity of the company though, more I’d say with the recession.. warranty is nice, I agree, but you don’t need it with a tried an true boat.


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## manny2376 (Mar 15, 2007)

From personal experience: started with a jon boat and transitioned to a Gheenoe for a few years until I figured out things I wanted and needed. Got lucky to get out of the Gheenoe with a $300 loss. Purchased a used Ankona and eventually sold it and broke even to get into a Waterman 18. Just refurbished the Waterman at HB last month. It was a 7 year process from start to finish and every skiff was purchased used. Could I had gone with the HB first and skipped the entire process? Maybe, yes... but “for me” it was a good learning experience. Ultimately I ended up with a skiff that works for me best 80% of the time. 

Side note: I really liked the Ankona Shadowcast I had. The deal breaker for me was the low top speed. Got caught in a few storms that I couldn’t outrun while I had it and was over it pretty quick. Solid skiff, just didn’t need the tunnel in my opinion. YMMV.


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## Vertigo (Jun 3, 2012)

A good, classic older hull will hold value far better than anything new or newish. An older Hewes, Silverking, Pathfinder, Maverick, etc. (if in good shape) might even appreciate over time. As far as used boats go, once you've decided on a hull, pay the most attention to the power plant. The motor is always the most likely to give problems and cost big bucks. For $15,000, there are plenty of classics out there with fresh motors. Here's one I like:
https://treasure.craigslist.org/boa/d/18-flats-boat/6568812618.html


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

If your repowering an older hull your looking at a minimum of 11,000.00 I have an 94 action craft and just lucked into a used motor last year or would have been forking out 11,000.00 agree about checking the power plant.


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

jlindsley said:


> Ankona has a 10 year structural warranty and you would have a new motor warranty. I would rather buy a new ankona than a 20 year old hells bay for $25k with no warranty. This would go for the other "mid tier" boats out there as well. I think both will last a "lifetime" but then again most of us don't buy a boat for a lifetime as needs change. Hells bay has had ownership changes and a bankruptcy in the past 20 years as well.


I don’t know. I might go with the 20 year old HB. They just look better. But I am biased as I own a copy. Original company is gone and resale is still quite good.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

@Vertigo my next boat will be a hewes bonefisher/redfisher but the later 90s versions with the flat front deck instead of recessed


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Apr 4, 2015)

I’m a big fan of older high-end, well cared for stuff. There’s really nothing to go wrong in a properly built fiberglass hull, your problems are likely going to be motor and rigging related anyways. 

If you’re not making long runs there’s not anything wrong with a 2-stroke and maintenance/repair costs are significantly lower. 

We bought my wife a 2008 Range Rover Supercharged a couple years ago for $26k. The car was $98k new and still looks and drives like it. I’ll take that over a Ford Explorer any day.


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

If I had $20k to spend on a boat I would buy that tiller Cayo 173 in the classifieds. Very capable machine and it's built like a brick shithouse.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

I was having this discussion today at work. I’d say in skiff market, most hulls are built pretty good. The difference between a good boat and a great boat, is fit and finish and quality of components used in the build. When you move into high end boats, vacuum bag resin infused, Kevlar and carbon builds really add to the price. 3 piece boats (hull, deck, cap) all that add cost but not necessarily to the quality of the boat. I’d consider my Vantage VHP on the higher end of boats. That’s not to say that my boat is better than my buddy’s Shadowcast. What is key to look for is a boat that has the features and performance that fits the way you like to fish and the conditions you fish in. The other consideration is that it is a boat you are proud to own. For me, I wanted a HB Marquesa or an EC Vantage, with a preference for the EC, since I end up in some pretty sporty water getting to and from where I like to fish. Don’t blindly by the brand, buy the boat you need.


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## Longjohnsenskiff (Apr 23, 2018)

jmrodandgun said:


> If I had $20k to spend on a boat I would buy that tiller Cayo 173 in the classifieds. Very capable machine and it's built like a brick shithouse.


He wants a center console. I’d be open to a tiller but he is free to have his preferences


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## Longjohnsenskiff (Apr 23, 2018)

jay.bush1434 said:


> I was having this discussion today at work. I’d say in skiff market, most hulls are built pretty good. The difference between a good boat and a great boat, is fit and finish and quality of components used in the build. When you move into high end boats, vacuum bag resin infused, Kevlar and carbon builds really add to the price. 3 piece boats (hull, deck, cap) all that add cost but not necessarily to the quality of the boat. I’d consider my Vantage VHP on the higher end of boats. That’s not to say that my boat is better than my buddy’s Shadowcast. What is key to look for is a boat that has the features and performance that fits the way you like to fish and the conditions you fish in. The other consideration is that it is a boat you are proud to own. For me, I wanted a HB Marquesa or an EC Vantage, with a preference for the EC, since I end up in some pretty sporty water getting to and from where I like to fish. Don’t blindly by the brand, buy the boat you need.



The marquesa is my favorite boat I have ever been on, I heard the ecc has a little more drag while poling. Never been on one, correct me if I’m wrong.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

Longjohnsenskiff said:


> The marquesa is my favorite boat I have ever been on, I heard the *ecc has a little more drag while poling*. Never been on one, correct me if I’m wrong.


Yes it does have a little more drag. It poles remarkably well for it’s size but you need to lean into it to get her going at first. It spins easily and tracks good so it is deceptively easy. I still love the Marquesa though.


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## Cronced (Nov 18, 2016)

Longjohnsenskiff said:


> I’m trying to get him to invest in a boat that cost just a bit more around 20k


If your friend is anything like me, he probably doesn't appreciate being told how to spend his money. Let him buy what he wants and if you don't like his boat, don't fish on it.


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## Longjohnsenskiff (Apr 23, 2018)

Cronced said:


> If your friend is anything like me, he probably doesn't appreciate being told how to spend his money. Let him buy what he wants and if you don't like his boat, don't fish on it.


No one likes people like you, read the rest of my comments and if he didn’t want my opinion he wouldn’t ask. He’s coming to me for advice, a second opinion.


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## flysalt060 (Aug 5, 2012)

Pretty much every boat is vacuum infused. It ain’t fricking magic. If your buddy wants a great skiff, either the silver kings for sale on cl or the 2000 and something dolphin would be perfect. The tank on the superskiff can be pulled thru front hatch, silver Kings gonna have to pull cap. The power will be mounted square and plumb unlike what one gets nowadays.


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

As someone who has bought and sold 3 Ankona's in the past (gen 1 Copperhead, Gen 2 Copperhead, and Shadowcat), I can tell you that the resale value isn't bad at all. I was able to sell all three for the same I paid, or even more. 

I found myself in the same situation you're actually talking about. I fell in love with the idea of finding an old Whipray 16 and doing an overhaul and repower, so I sold my 3 year old Gen 2 Copperhead with 300+ hours for $17.5k, which I made money on that deal, as I had about $15k into it.
I had located the "perfect skiff" to overhaul. There was a friend of a friend who had a super clean Whipray 16 with a 40 Tohatsu that he was going to put on the market. He had originally asked me for $17k, but I was able to talk him down to $14k. But when I went out and poled the skiff, I was in shock. I was in shock to how badly it poled and performed. While the skiff looked great, the price was right, it just didn't perform up to my standards. I don't care what anyone says, the 16 Waterman / Whipray does not track straight by any means. I ended up passing on the deal (which was a huge mistake). The guy reached out to me a few more times to make sure I was going to pass on the deal and ended up posting it on here for $19k expecting to get haggled down, instead, a few members went at it and it ended up selling for $23k. I could have got it for $14k and flipped it.. haha

So I decided to look around at different skiffs and was actually on my drive up to East Cape to check out the Glide. While I was on i95 heading north, somewhere near Stuart, Kevin called and cancelled. So we decided to call Maverick and see if we can stop by and check out skiffs, so we went in and checked out the HPX-S, as it had just come out. After leading there, I drove over to Ankona and ended up pulling the trigger on a new Shadowcast 17. It poled way better than the Whipray did, by far. My biggest concern with the Shadowcast was the speed, with the 30HP Etec, I was only seeing 27 MPH. And sure enough, I got caught in a really bad storm, and the skiff was way slower than I liked.... haha. so I sold that two years after I got it, sold it for a little more than breaking even and got the Heron 16 with the 60 ETEC that runs 38-40MPH. I can sell the Heron for what I have into it or more if I ever feel the need to sell. However, after running it for over a year, I can't see myself finding a skiff that'll run and fish better than this. 

I might add something smaller like the Advent or something for puddle jumping. 

Ankona has been in business for over a decade, they aren't a group of people who popped out of nowhere building skiffs. They've paid their dues in this industry and build some of the best performing skiffs on the market.


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## not2shabby (Sep 14, 2016)

jay.bush1434 said:


> I’d consider my Vantage VHP on the higher end of boats. That’s not to say that my boat is better than my buddy’s Shadowcast.


I'll say it for you. Your VHP is better than your buddy's Shadowcast.


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## not2shabby (Sep 14, 2016)

Best thing you can do is get yourself and your friend on a lot of skiffs. There are a few friendly members still left on this forum. Ask around and see if folks will give you some time.


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## Longjohnsenskiff (Apr 23, 2018)

paint it black said:


> As someone who has bought and sold 3 Ankona's in the past (gen 1 Copperhead, Gen 2 Copperhead, and Shadowcat), I can tell you that the resale value isn't bad at all. I was able to sell all three for the same I paid, or even more.
> 
> I found myself in the same situation you're actually talking about. I fell in love with the idea of finding an old Whipray 16 and doing an overhaul and repower, so I sold my 3 year old Gen 2 Copperhead with 300+ hours for $17.5k, which I made money on that deal, as I had about $15k into it.
> I had located the "perfect skiff" to overhaul. There was a friend of a friend who had a super clean Whipray 16 with a 40 Tohatsu that he was going to put on the market. He had originally asked me for $17k, but I was able to talk him down to $14k. But when I went out and poled the skiff, I was in shock. I was in shock to how badly it poled and performed. While the skiff looked great, the price was right, it just didn't perform up to my standards. I don't care what anyone says, the 16 Waterman / Whipray does not track straight by any means. I ended up passing on the deal (which was a huge mistake). The guy reached out to me a few more times to make sure I was going to pass on the deal and ended up posting it on here for $19k expecting to get haggled down, instead, a few members went at it and it ended up selling for $23k. I could have got it for $14k and flipped it.. haha
> ...


These are the things I like to hear, thank you.


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## fishtherapy (Jul 24, 2018)

Does the Heron fish better than the Shadowcast? As far as speed, couldn't you just add a bigger motor on the Shadow?


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

fishtherapy said:


> Does the Heron fish better than the Shadowcast? As far as speed, couldn't you just add a bigger motor on the Shadow?[/QUOTE The shadowcast has a tunnel so it's limited to speed no mater what size motor you put on it. The heron is a totally different boat pm paint it black he had a shadowcast and now has a heron very knowledgeable on ankona boat's.


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## jimsmicro (Oct 29, 2013)

Maybe it's just me but I don't think most of these "boutique" brands are really that much better to justify the cost. Sure it holds its value, but you also probably paid twice what you'd have paid for a less popular brand. It's all glass and resin to me and as long as it's made by a REPUTABLE builder it's fine by me. I'd much rather prefer a low hour motor on an "average" hull to a Hells Bay with a motor that has 3000 hours on it that was beat by some guide yet still costs 35 grand because it's a HB. I see way too much of that stuff these days. Just because it says Pathfinder on the side doesn't mean it isn't still a 20 year old hull with all the problems that come along with that.


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

fishtherapy said:


> Does the Heron fish better than the Shadowcast? As far as speed, couldn't you just add a bigger motor on the Shadow?


I had as big as a motor that I should have put on the Shadowcast (30 ETEC). The Heron is a different animal. It won't float as shallow, but not by much. I'd say I lost an inch of draft? But I gained more stability, speed, much better running long distances and it's by far the best skiff I've ever ran in rough waters. I've had four people on board the Heron and had a good day of fishing. I had four people on the Shadowcast once, and we also caught a few tarpon on fly, but it was super sketchy. haha.


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## fishtherapy (Jul 24, 2018)

paint it black said:


> I had as big as a motor that I should have put on the Shadowcast (30 ETEC). The Heron is a different animal. It won't float as shallow, but not by much. I'd say I lost an inch of draft? But I gained more stability, speed, much better running long distances and it's by far the best skiff I've ever ran in rough waters. I've had four people on board the Heron and had a good day of fishing. I had four people on the Shadowcast once, and we also caught a few tarpon on fly, but it was super sketchy. haha.


I'm a beginner. Would the price jump justify it for me? A used shadow will run between 8-11k.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

fishtherapy said:


> I'm a beginner. Would the price jump justify it for me? A used shadow will run between 8-11k.


My advice to you as a beginner is to buy a cheap skiff ie gheenoe or something along that line because your going to find out what you like and what you don't like in a boat it will take you at least three times to get dialed in to your fishing style. Just my 2 cents.


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## fishtherapy (Jul 24, 2018)

Backcountry 16 said:


> My advice to you as a beginner is to buy a cheap skiff ie gheenoe or something along that line because your going to find out what you like and what you don't like in a boat it will take you at least three times to get dialed in to your fishing style. Just my 2 cents.


Good advice! Thanks


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## seered (Sep 8, 2015)

Gents,

As a member that has not contributed to this site more than he has learned I wanted to weigh in on this topic. 

All outdoor equipment is a tool to achieve an end result. A waterfowler views a shot gun differently than an uplander. Break ice, push boat vs. a walk thru a field with quick action and balance. I own A-5's that unfortunately will never fire a shot again in my lifetime. If you are sight casting a fly or chunking cut bait there are many different needs as well. 

My stance is if resale value is a serious concern position yourself where the volume is. If you have had the opportunity to fish off of many platforms and know what suits you for the balance of your time afield lock in on the best and hold it till your kids have to figure out what to do with it. But, with that being said when a fish is on the other side of a bar that you know you will drag across do you push over and leave marks on the bottom or find another route? 

I started with a wilderness systems tarpon 160 and sold ten years later for a $200 loss. Next a 13' Gheenoe bought for $4,300 and sold for $4,300 two years later. Next an Ankona 16' Shadowcast bought for $8,500 and sold for $8,500 four years later. All were well kept and maintained but all had marks on them when sold that they did not come with. Because they are tools but also positioned in a price range where the volume of buyers are.

I do not have much experience with high-end TPS but have a good idea where I will lock in on my last one but hope I have a lot to learn before I start that build. 

Manny2376 said it best, it is a learning experience with each step or progression. Just head to the ramp quicker than he did! A Shadowcast is a hell of a good skiff!


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## fishtherapy (Jul 24, 2018)

seered said:


> Gents,
> 
> As a member that has not contributed to this site more than he has learned I wanted to weigh in on this topic.
> 
> ...


What's going to be your next build?


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## GnarlyD (Jul 1, 2015)

So I’m the “ friend” in this post. 
After about 10 months of looking for a boat (after already owning a 13’gheenoe, 12ft jon, and 14’jon rigged as a poling skiff with polling platform and all) I finally landed on a 2008 mitzi Skiff with 70hp 2 stoke. It was under 10k, can hadle small chop, and pole skinny enough. I’m very happy with my decision, but it was not easy. My first concern was not being able to get skinny enough, as it’s what Iv been used to in my previous boats. The Mitzi floats more like 8-10”, so I’ll have to get used to being slightly limited and not being able to get out and push the boat over 2” of water if needed. My second was price. If I get a boat that’s too old, I might have to re-power the boat soon, or have other issues, but if I get a boat that’s too new, it hurts the wallet too much.My third concern one ride quality. Being able to cross small chop, and not get totally soaked and ponded. 
After taking the boat out the first night I got it, I found out the boat will pole “skinny enough” as we got on multiple trailers in 8”-15” of water on a low tide. The boat only dragged bottom in a couple of areas, but I never had to get out of the boat, I could easily push off with the pole. 

It’s hard to get exactly what you want used, but if your patient, you can get close and make compromises. It seems like these days there’s a bunch of good boats out there, but they are too new ( even the used ones 1-2 ears old) for me to afford. For me, there was only a few boats that fit the bill like an older maverick 15, some earlier ankona models, dolphin renagade, ranger.. the Mitzi was one of them, and I’m proud to own one.
- some pics from my first night with the skiff.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

^^^winning


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