# Sneak peak on the 2020 8wt Shootout



## WylanB

Sounds like they prefer the Meridian to the Sector then. That's interesting. I love my new Sector!


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## Backwater

WylanB said:


> Sounds like they prefer the Meridian to the Sector then. That's interesting. I love my new Sector!


You mean, the reverse of what you said (preferring the Sector over the Meridian).


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## WylanB

In 2018, the Meridian came in 2nd, ahead of the Orvis Helios 3F. This year they have the Sector coming in behind the Orvis.


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## Backwater

WylanB said:


> In 2018, the Meridian came in 2nd, ahead of the Orvis Helios 3F. This year they have the Sector coming in behind the Orvis.


Oh ok. Interesting observation.


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## 994

So Loomis paid them the most, got it.


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## brokeoff

WylanB said:


> Sounds like they prefer the Meridian to the Sector then. That's interesting. I love my new Sector!


Maybe they do. 

But at the end of the day, for the 2018 8 wt Shootout, the winner comes down to "fun to have/got to have." The Asquith (161 points) won over the Meridian (160.8) by .2 points. They were given "fun to fish/got to have" scores of 10 and 9.5, respectively. That .5 difference switches first and second place.

I'd be very interested to see their best caster on video throwing a gotcha/crazy charlie at 30/60/90 ft (with a dual screen of where the fly lands). Then I can compare the rods flex profile, loop, accuracy. I don't need anything to be ranked.


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## Snakesurf

The shoot out is OK as a guide to point you in the right direction but we are all different in our needs and wants. What maybe #1 for someone, maybe #10 for someone else.


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## TheAdamsProject

Another worthless shootout.


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## hamptonsurf

only worthless to you.....the manufacturers (at least those at or near the top) sure love it.

it's like taylor made irons being picked #1 and then purchased in 1500 dollar sets by hacks that cant it a 8 iron off a tee, let alone out of a rough.


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## TheAdamsProject

hamptonsurf said:


> only worthless to you.....the manufacturers (at least those at or near the top) sure love it.
> 
> it's like taylor made irons being picked #1 and then purchased in 1500 dollar sets by hacks that cant it a 8 iron off a tee, let alone out of a rough.


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## kjnengr

brokeoff said:


> Maybe they do.
> 
> But at the end of the day, for the 2018 8 wt Shootout, the winner comes down to "fun to have/got to have." The Asquith (161 points) won over the Meridian (160.8) by .2 points. They were given "fun to fish/got to have" scores of 10 and 9.5, respectively. That .5 difference switches first and second place.
> 
> I'd be very interested to see their best caster on video throwing a gotcha/crazy charlie at 30/60/90 ft (with a dual screen of where the fly lands). Then I can compare the rods flex profile, loop, accuracy. I don't need anything to be ranked.



I've never understood that criteria. It's a completely subjective thing and they can add points wherever they want. Performance, yep. Aesthetics and fit/fish, ok. Fun to fish? they are all fun to fish unless the rod is a dog.


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## grass bass

There is an 8wt Douglas Sky/G? I assume there will eventually be, but this is the first I've heard of it. Their website says nothing of it, and they didn't say anything about when I talked to them about the 5wt G and tested it at the FFS... I have liked the 8wt Sky/Not-G though.


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## crboggs

kjnengr said:


> I've never understood that criteria. *It's a completely subjective thing and they can add points wherever they want.* Performance, yep. Aesthetics and fit/fish, ok. Fun to fish? they are all fun to fish unless the rod is a dog.


This is how they bump the 8wts they want to sell to trout guys dreaming of trips to the Keys or Bahamas for bonefish.


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## Backwater

Guys, we've all had this conversation before (multiple threads here). I look at it like a gauge, but not the end all authority. I really wouldn't consider any of these guys as excellent/perfect casters and being from Montana, several of them have an altered preference relative to guys like me and some others down here in Florida that fish windy wide open flats. For me, in 6-9wts, I want something extra light and extra fast, but not extra stiff. It also has to be light on the swing. So that being said, I like the tip to be super fast without the rest of the rod feeling stiff. Super fast, yes, but not super stiff with an overall bend to the rod that flows evenly from tip to rod butt. George on the other hand, loving a rod that flexes more in the tip, use to love the NRX. For me, the NRX was...Meh... and though it was fast, to me, it was just more of an all around fishing rod. Same thing with the Meridian and Asquith. Those rods are just "Meh.." for me. So I take what they all say with a grain of salt and know what that all means for me.

I've spend many hours with George, even on the water. He's well known throughout the industry and during some shows like iCast, they'll hide when they see him coming because he doesn't buy into all their sales pitches and tells it like it is, in an almost obnoxious way. Yes, he can rub people the wrong way and do things he shouldn't, even out there on the water. He's like a bull in a china shop. Steve Huff and I were talking one day about setting up on the beaches for poon strings and somehow Georges name came up and Steve started huffing (pun intended ) and gruffing about how George muscled his way in between where Steve was set up and the string that was heading his way, without bowing out and going down stream from Steve. I mean, there is a certain etiquette when fishing for poons and guys like Steve will follow suite, weather he has a paid charter with him or not and doesn't like muscling in on his fish, which I totally understand with Steve because I get aggravated the same way when someone does that with me. So I get it.

So no doubt, he's rough around the edges and even his personal life can follow suit and a little bit like a roller coaster. But that being said, he's persistent and consistent in his passion of evaluating equipment out there testing and evaluating the little nuances and differences of fly fishing equipment and things of that sort over the last 60yrs + of serious fly fishing, which is more to say than most of us here. So I give him that respect on those points. Though his preferences are not exactly mine, he does know good equipment when he sees it and feels it up and he is a pretty damn good caster, though not perfect, but then again, neither am I nor the guy who does those side-by-side comparison rod casting reviews on youtube for Trident (his back cast has got issues IMO). And what do you think his underlying motive is? Yes, ultimately, like George's, is to give a somewhat unbiased opinion to ultimately sell more rods of whatever flavor of the day it happens to be (both companies selling most brands out there).

So one thing I know he does is he looks at things in his eyes, and feed back from others he knows speaks mostly the same language, in regards to equipment evals, and then averages all their opinions for his public and customers out there that are advanced freshwater fly fishermen that also some saltwater fly fishing, and guys that mostly fishes the salt, but are not seriously expert fly casters. So he tries to point out what are great fast casting rods that you can still "feel" how the rod behaves, tracks well and may help give someone a slightly better edge if they upgraded to it over their older gen rods and equipment. So I see what he is doing there.

He says he doesn't get paid or bonus' from Loomis or any other mfg, except for slight improvements in higher volume pricing through higher sales (which can happen from any other mfg out there). His store (which is pretty much owned and run by his son now) actually carries about every manufacture of rods that are any good, from novice level to the high end advanced equipment. He's very clear that they wouldn't carry junk, but will carry lots of low ended products that meets starter/entry level budgets and needs, from low end, intermediate level to the high end stuff. They also take trades, like Trident. So there is no real motive to be bias from one mfg to another. It's just his opinion over the years with some others like minded, averaged in. So another point where I see what he's doing there.

If you ever met him, you'll find that he'll want to talk more about what makes a great Cuban cigar, than what makes a great fly rod. That being said, just look at it with a grain of salt, as a guide to look at what's out there and their version of comparison, then go to your local shop, try them out and see what's best for you. Yes, ultimately, his main drawl is he hopes you'll end up buying from them or at lease migrate to their website to read the article, see what they are all about, maybe buy something from their online store, or go visit their shop if you are up there or even book a guide to fish up there. In either way, it's something they do for the fly fishing public out there in hopes you'll eventually do some business with them or refer someone to them. So to me, he's a business man, with a passion for that particular thing and reviews it for the public, that ultimately promotes them and brings in business for them in some way or another. So I don't knock him for that.

I mean, I'd love to see some panel setup of very experienced expert casters, with very sharp rod evaluation skills, that are absolutely non-bias, who are all not paid, just volunteers with their passion to give back to the public, who could gather once a year and evaluate all the latest rods out there and compare them to what's currently out there. Then they could sit down and write an article with photos and even video, it a way and some sort of gauge and measurement that can be understood by the average joe fly fisherman. Good Luck with that one! I hope someone can spend the money and put that whole thing together. Heck, I'll even volunteer and contribute my 2 cents worth. And while your at it, re-do the affta chart of acceptable fly line weights (I've been saying that for years) for a system that hasn't changed since the bamboo/fiberglass days. Also while your at it, throw in a yearly fly line and fly reel review. Then we can all sit back and do our sofa commentary on how wrong they are also doing those, while some will consider it the Gospel. 

Guys, To sum it up, only use this as a guide for high end rods. But it doesn't mean run out and buy it just because "THEY" said it was the best, or call them and order it based on their article. Hey, there are plenty of other good rods out there that fishes well and not in those price ranges. So, to each, there own. George's review is only for those high end performance range, what they feel has that "edge," in their own experience and preference. That's all I'm saying. So get out there, go try some fly rods on your own. You can use their shootout as a guide if you are looking at rods like that, and/or get what is a "Value" to you (price vs performance), then go out there, wet a line and go fish.

Ted Haas


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## SomaliPirate

These threads always turn into the Florida Skiff challenge for fly rods.


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## Half Shell

crboggs said:


> This is how they bump the 8wts they want to sell to trout guys dreaming of trips to the Keys or Bahamas for bonefish.


Worked on me 6 years ago


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## TidewateR

like i'm going to trust an 8wt review from some single haul'n trout set'n mountain hippy


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## brokeoff

Half Shell said:


> Worked on me 6 years ago


With all this being said, none of these are bad rods. I’m sure you’ve enjoyed the purchase.


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## brokeoff

@Backwater it is nice that someone is compiling info on these rods.


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## crboggs

brokeoff said:


> It is nice that someone is compiling info on these rods.


Yup. Its a slick piece of marketing.


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## Half Shell

brokeoff said:


> With all this being said, none of these are bad rods. I’m sure you’ve enjoyed the purchase.


I didn't follow it's recommendations because I wasn't sold on fast action rods at the time. I bought a TFO mangrove but I'd like something faster now.... like a Orvis 3D 9wt or a Meridian.


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## brokeoff

Half Shell said:


> I didn't follow it's recommendations because I wasn't sold on fast action rods at the time. I bought a TFO mangrove but I'd like something faster now.... like a Orvis 3D 9wt or a Meridian.


I would suggest casting those rods before you buy them. Of course, tougher with the Meridian. Try to think about how your fishing will be affected by that decision.


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## TwitchAO

Shootouts and parking lot casting are both wastes of time. Go to your local fly shop or friends who have the rods you are interested in, and cast them in real life fishing situations. Most importantly have a decent line matched on the rod because line can completely change how a rod feels. Until you're on the bow of a boat or wading with real life factors you will have no idea how a rod is going to preform to your casting style. Its great that you can throw 70-90ft in a parking lot but is that distance going to match the distance you will be casting on the water? If you must throw them in the parking lot or a yard at least put a real leader with a common fly pattern on the end. I will take old flies and clip off the hook point. Everyone cast different and there is no one great rod that fits everyone. And why would you take saltwater rod advice from a trout specialty shop? I wouldn't ask my local South Florida shop what trout 5 wt. to get. 

Even after sayin all of this An 8wt that I would be fishing in the keys would not be the same 8wt I would want in LA. Keys rods need to cary a lot of line in the air and be able to deal with a lot of wind, and La. rods for red fish usually need to load right way and you are usually not casting outside of 30-40ft so I would argue that you can't do a complete 8wt comparison without being bias to the areas you fish on a regular basis.


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## SomaliPirate

Joke's on you, rod manufacturers: I throw the same 35 feet with a Helios as I do a BVK.


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## johnmauser

Backwater said:


> Heck, I'll even volunteer and contribute my 2 cents worth. And while your at it, re-do the affta chart of acceptable fly line weights (I've been saying that for years) for a system that hasn't changed since the bamboo/fiberglass days.
> 
> Ted Haas


Ted, what came first? The fly rod or the fly line? J/K. I don't want to de-rail this thread, but I'd love to see a post about the affta fly line weights on here some day. Everyone has an opinion, and it would at the very least be an interesting thread, if not a giant can of worms.


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## Backwater

TidewateR said:


> like i'm going to trust an 8wt review from some single haul'n trout set'n mountain hippy


Did you really just say that? Let's see your casting and maybe you can cast better?

Trust me when I say all these guys can easily shoot 80-90ft + and most can throw an entire line. There is no single hauling in their program with this review. Capt Skip is a Boca Grande guide that is a FFI Casting instructor. I've seen the panel's casting as a whole and it's not too shabby. Not the absolute very best out there (I mean the really great casters out there), but better than most (not all) good casters.


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## Backwater

johnmauser said:


> Ted, what came first? The fly rod or the fly line? J/K. I don't want to de-rail this thread, but I'd love to see a post about the affta fly line weights on here some day. Everyone has an opinion, and it would at the very least be an interesting thread, if not a giant can of worms.


Hey John. Yes we've had those discussions here. (can do a "Search" on that subject). I think it's a mixed view on the subject and there are good points on either side, stating that rod companies should continue with rating rods according to the "approved" affta specifications on what a true line weight should be. And vise versa, where the rod companies and saying technologies are changes and the lines need to be re-rated. Same thing with the Fly Line Mfgs. and the way they rate lines

Yes, that is a completely different subject. As a mfg, I'd respectfully like to hear your opinion on that subject, along with the other guys in that industry. But that can be for another time and on another thread.


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## brokeoff

Backwater said:


> Did you really just say that? Let's see your casting and maybe you can cast better?
> 
> Trust me when I say all these guys can easily shoot 80-90ft + and most can throw an entire line. There is no single hauling in their program with this review. Capt Skip is a Boca Grande guide that is a certified FFI Master Casting instructor. I've seen their casting. Very impressive. Not the absolute very best out there (I mean the really great casters out there), but better than most (not all) good casters.


I saw this a few years ago. Just wish we had some different views.


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## Half Shell

brokeoff said:


> I would suggest casting those rods before you buy them. Of course, tougher with the Meridian. Try to think about how your fishing will be affected by that decision.


My experience with the Helios is limited to the instruction I had from Truel Myers in Key Largo over a couple of days; I know I liked the 3D 9wt. Maybe one day I'll drop the coin. It's not like I don't have a rack full of $500 spinning rods and baitcasters.


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## Backwater

TwitchAO said:


> Shootouts and parking lot casting are both wastes of time. Go to your local fly shop or friends who have the rods you are interested in, and cast them in real life fishing situations. Most importantly have a decent line matched on the rod because line can completely change how a rod feels. Until you're on the bow of a boat or wading with real life factors you will have no idea how a rod is going to preform to your casting style. Its great that you can throw 70-90ft in a parking lot but is that distance going to match the distance you will be casting on the water? If you must throw them in the parking lot or a yard at least put a real leader with a common fly pattern on the end. I will take old flies and clip off the hook point. Everyone cast different and there is no one great rod that fits everyone. And why would you take saltwater rod advice from a trout specialty shop? I wouldn't ask my local South Florida shop what trout 5 wt. to get.
> 
> Even after sayin all of this An 8wt that I would be fishing in the keys would not be the same 8wt I would want in LA. Keys rods need to cary a lot of line in the air and be able to deal with a lot of wind, and La. rods for red fish usually need to load right way and you are usually not casting outside of 30-40ft so I would argue that you can't do a complete 8wt comparison without being bias to the areas you fish on a regular basis.


Casting in a parking lot??

George lives 3 minutes from the boat ramp near Boca Grande and runs an 18 Mirage HPX-V with a hopped up 130 Yamaha (freakin fast boat), from early Dec till late April and fishes way more than most good fly fishermen do (he's been semi-retired for years). They all book guides for customers all around the world and get's invited to fish in these places and fly fish for fish that I can only dream of doing. So he does know his shizzit. 

Don't knock someone unless you know them.


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## brokeoff

Half Shell said:


> My experience with the Helios is limited to the instruction I had from Truel Myers in Key Largo over a couple of days; I know I liked the 3D 9wt. Maybe one day I'll drop the coin. It's not like I don't have a rack full of $500 spinning rods and baitcasters.


@Backwater is it fair to say that medium fast rods have more range? That's the conclusion I came to and made the switch from Methods to Sectors. While a very fast rod can be tip casted in short, it's not the best tool for the job. The medium fast rod, maybe a Zephrus wins there. While it's true that a very fast rod requires less effort to get distance isn't it also true that a medium fast rod using the appropriate amount of translation (i.e. \\\\\\/) get nearly the same fishable distance. I am not talking about a Method vs a Zephrus with extreme translation (i.e. \\\\\\\\\\\/) on the lawn. I'm really talking about that 60 - 90 ft range.


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## TwitchAO

Backwater said:


> Parking Lot??
> 
> George lives 3 minutes from the boat ramp near Boca Grande and runs a HPX-V with a hopped up 130 Yamaha (freakin fast boat), from early Dec till late April and fishes way more than most good fly fishermen do (he's been semi-retired for years). They all book guides for customers all around the world and get's invited to fish in these places and fly fish for fish that I can only dream of doing. So he does know his shizzit.
> 
> Don't knock someone unless you know them.


I am not knocking anyone and I agree the tester are great casters and I'm sure some of them are great anglers too, but they are all going to have their own biases. The bigger point I was trying to make is everyone is different. If you lined up say 20-30 of the best saltwater anglers, casters, and guides, you would still have a heated debate on what rod is the best. You can read all you want but in the end it should weigh very little on the decision of what rod to buy. And they are being one demential on lines. Yes the bone fish line is awesome in the right environment, but it will not do that well when fishing flood tides trying to turn over very heavy flies at close range(need bigger tapers). they are casting the rods like they would in their own fishery.

Not sure why you brought up where George lives and what boat he has. Not really relevant to the conversation. Gary Merriman lives in Atlanta and does not currently own a boat, but is one of the better salt water anglers I have been around.


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## Backwater

brokeoff said:


> @Backwater is it fair to say that medium fast rods have more range? That's the conclusion I came to and made the switch from Methods to Sectors. While a very fast rod can be tip casted in short, it's not the best tool for the job. The medium fast rod, maybe a Zephrus wins there. While it's true that a very fast rod requires less effort to get distance isn't it also true that a medium fast rod using the appropriate amount of translation (i.e. \\\\\\/) get nearly the same fishable distance. I am not talking about a Method vs a Zephrus with extreme translation (i.e. \\\\\\\\\\\/) on the lawn. I'm really talking about that 60 - 90 ft range.


You can loose a lot of the rod's casting power if there's no energy transfer from the mid section and even the butt section of the rod up through the tip, which then transfers out through the line, even if that means small amounts of flexing, with even an ultra fast rod. It's just simply easier to do with a "fast" and even a "med fast" rod. But remember, you loose a little in how tight the loops will be too (which can be a function of wind resistance).

As far as the rod rotation, I have a very long conversation with Steve Rajeff about that very exact subject in regards to distance casting and he says he knows many subscribe to that newer \\\\\/ whereas he rotates throughout the entire casting stroke. There are many different casting styles.


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## TwitchAO

Backwater said:


> Casting in a parking lot??
> 
> George lives 3 minutes from the boat ramp near Boca Grande and runs an 18 Mirage HPX-V with a hopped up 130 Yamaha (freakin fast boat), from early Dec till late April and fishes way more than most good fly fishermen do (he's been semi-retired for years). They all book guides for customers all around the world and get's invited to fish in these places and fly fish for fish that I can only dream of doing. So he does know his shizzit.
> 
> Don't knock someone unless you know them.


Also "Parking Lot" was not a reference to the actual shootout but referencing how most people test the rods they are about to buy at a shop.


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## Half Shell

TwitchAO said:


> Also "Parking Lot" was not a reference to the actual shootout but referencing how most people test the rods they are about to buy at a shop.


That's better than how people buy conventional rods in the store.

Btw, I thought the Yellowstone shootouts had a panel of judges, not just one guy?


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## TwitchAO

Half Shell said:


> That's better than how people buy conventional rods in the store.
> 
> Btw, I thought the Yellowstone shootouts had a panel of judges, not just one guy?


I think its four or so but not sure. In my first post I mentioned that if a parking lot is your only option at least try to put a leader similar to what you would be fishing and attach a fly at he end. Almost anyone that is a decent caster can dump the line off of a rod with a "parking lot" setup.


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## TwitchAO

Some more food for thought is just because you are a great caster(this is by no means directed at anyone judging the shootout as I have never fished with any of them) does not mean you are a great angler. I have seen some people that are great caster and teachers absolutely loose it when real world factors are introduced into a time sensitive shot at moving fish. I have also seen people who have horrible casting techniques and can't cast outside of 50ft accurately absolutely slay fish. Distance is sometimes overvalued as being able to cast 40ft quickly and accurately can dramatically increase the amount of fish you catch while sight fishing. Yes 60-70ft sometime can be a huge advantage but a lot of times the wind in Fl makes this a challenge for most of us. You have to find a rod that gives you the most confidence and this is different for everyone. Most of us are not on the same level of casting as the judges reviewing these rods so what they like may be way different from someone not on that level. One of my close friends slays fish on a Winston boron III plus and they were alway close to the bottom on the saltwater shootouts. I don't even like them but he is dead on with his 8wt. It works for him.


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## numbskull

Alas, if it was only so simple to become a better caster by buying the "best" rod.
Never worked for me.


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## jmrodandgun

Backwater said:


> Trust me when I say all these guys can easily shoot 80-90ft + and most can throw an entire line.


I can take a piss off my poling platform without getting a drop on the lower unit.


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## Backwater

brokeoff said:


> I saw this a few years ago. Just wish we had some different views.


I remember that shootout they did. George had just come back from fishing in Cuba for a month straight. So then you have George there, and his son Jamie (who runs Yellowstone Angler, who, with George, has fished all over the world), Capt Skip Zink who is a redfish, snook and tarpon guide there in Charlotte Harbor and Boca Grande, who also teaches casting schools at West Wall fly shop, who is also a FFI Casting Instructor. 

An the you have Dusty Sprague, who is also one of my mentors, who is not only a FFI Master Casting Instructor, but is also casting instructor's mentors and one of the few testing instructors if you were to become a FFI Casting Instructor (CI) or Master Casting Instructor (MCI) and has sat on the FFI board for Florida (But back then, IFFF). So if anyone is well qualified, it would be Dusty. Him and I were working the iCast ponds, casting together and evaluating rods there and I can assure you, it doesn't get too much better casting than his, considering. That being said, that year at iCast 4 months before this shootout, when Scott Rods introduced the Meridian and him and I were testing it out on one of the casting ponds, Dusty absolutely fell in love with that rod. So when I found out he was going to be on George's panel, I knew he would favor that rod....and in fact, it won that Shootout. But for me, it was nice, but not my ultimate fav. Then Capt Jamie Allen came in later on the shootout to test rods with them, also a great Boca Grande Fly fishing guide, with constant time on the waters there in that area. So their thrown together was season fly casting vets for sure, not just no-nothing trout guys.

Also notice in that video, they were dealing with 10-15mph winds (can be real world situations down here) with gusts to 20mph. Plus full length leaders and a piece of yard tied on a hook shank big enough to be as wind resistant as a normal fly. Also notice the plates out each distant at each station. So they must have had put some thought into how to do it.

So....can a better panel be put together in the future? I'm sure. But then again, this was really made by them, just for their customers and anyone interested in seeing what they are all about at their shop and possibly doing some business of some kind with them. Yeah, you can call it subtle indirect marketing. But hey, If I owned a fly shop that does what they do, I'd do something like that too. So good for them. However, surprising enough, there are lots of other people and other fly shops that refer to their shootouts, not only their 8wt ver, but 5wt, 6wt and their reel shootout as well. So.... just food for thought.

Ted


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## jmrodandgun

A lot of mental masturbation going on here. One would think they would at least cast in a pond and not on the grass but I'm not a professional caster so what do I know.


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## Seymour fish

TwitchAO said:


> I think its four or so but not sure. In my first post I mentioned that if a parking lot is your only option at least try to put a leader similar to what you would be fishing and attach a fly at he end. Almost anyone that is a decent caster can dump the line off of a rod with a "parking lot" setup.


Twitch, Exactly right. To avoid nasty surprises on the water, a selection process on the lawn might look something like this: 1) try the spectrum of line weights from true aft ma to one full line wt heavy to get a feel for what the rod wants, and to define the limit of weight it will handle 2) attach your leader of choice for length/stiffness your conditions dictate, and re-test the lines that pass test #1. 3) attach fly of weight and aerodynamic resistance typical for your conditions and re-test. You may find some lines that were initially sweet are now failing. 4) consider modification, such as chopping 2-4’ off the front taper if turnover is lacking. You may find some huge overall improvements here. Typicall y, one or two lines will match the rod taper best, evidenced by throwing tighter loops, loading adequately short, carrying a bit more line in the air, and maintaining the ass to shoot with plenty line-carry, and throw distance with relative ease. Your time spent fussing with this now pays off. Take it fishing, with confidence. Seymour


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## Backwater

Seymour fish said:


> Twitch, Exactly right. To avoid nasty surprises on the water, a selection process on the lawn might look something like this: 1) try the spectrum of line weights from true aft ma to one full line wt heavy to get a feel for what the rod wants, and to define the limit of weight it will handle 2) attach your leader of choice for length/stiffness your conditions dictate, and re-test the lines that pass test #1. 3) attach fly of weight and aerodynamic resistance typical for your conditions and re-test. You may find some lines that were initially sweet are now failing. 4) consider modification, such as chopping 2-4’ off the front taper if turnover is lacking. You may find some huge overall improvements here. Typicall y, one or two lines will match the rod taper best, evidenced by throwing tighter loops, loading adequately short, carrying a bit more line in the air, and maintaining the ass to shoot with plenty line-carry, and throw distance with relative ease. Your time spent fussing with this now pays off. Take it fishing, with confidence. Seymour


Too many variables that need to be tested with each rod, to document where each rod shines, if any. Also, with all respect to anglers and skill lever vs rod performance levels, all rods need to be tested and documented for some form of guide (i.e. entry level/beginner, intermediate level rods and advanced higher level rods) to be fair to all people and all mfgs with all models they produce, including all line weight rod ratings. I mean, some rods are great in some line ratings, say like an 8wt and but then kinda suck on a 5wt, etc., etc...., or acts great on the lawn, but not so much on the water or when given another line or fly, etc.. I have a whole laundry list of things that really needs to be tested in order to truly compare rods with each other and to find each rods preferences, then document those things. But I'm sure there is not enough time nor resources to do all of that.


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## Seymour fish

Backwater said:


> Too many variables that need to be tested with each rod, to document where each rod shines, if any. Also, with all respect to anglers and skill lever vs rod performance levels, all rods need to be tested and documented for some form of guide (i.e. entry level/beginner, intermediate level rods and advanced higher level rods) to be fair to all people and all mfgs with all models they produce, including all line weight rod ratings. I mean, some rods are great in some line ratings, say like an 8wt and but then kinda suck on a 5wt, etc., etc...., or acts great on the lawn, but not so much on the water or when given another line or fly, etc.. I have a whole laundry list of things that really needs to be tested in order to truly compare rods with each other and to find each rods preferences, then document those things. But I'm sure there is not enough time nor resources to do all of that.


So you agree it’s the way to proceed, yet there’s “not enough time”, or it’s “ just too hard”. Roll out that laundry list


----------



## Seymour fish

Backwater said:


> Too many variables that need to be tested with each rod, to document where each rod shines, if any. Also, with all respect to anglers and skill lever vs rod performance levels, all rods need to be tested and documented for some form of guide (i.e. entry level/beginner, intermediate level rods and advanced higher level rods) to be fair to all people and all mfgs with all models they produce, including all line weight rod ratings. I mean, some rods are great in some line ratings, say like an 8wt and but then kinda suck on a 5wt, etc., etc...., or acts great on the lawn, but not so much on the water or when given another line or fly, etc.. I have a whole laundry list of things that really needs to be tested in order to truly compare rods with each other and to find each rods preferences, then document those things. But I'm sure there is not enough time nor resources to do all of that.


In covering a lot of ground broadly, You alluded to the “arms race” whereby a 9 in the mid ‘80s was on balance a true aftma setup, vs today it has been replaced for general flats fishing by an 8, throwing best with a line that is a true 8.75 to 9.25 aftma. Ie, the same damn line as before. As the line weights for 30’ of head are published and somewhat reliable, and the weights for the full head can be obtained, it seems reasonable to start with the actual weight of lines you need to propel the flies you intend to throw, for your conditions, for your distance, and rapidity of delivery. Then use that line or lines to test rods. Seymour


----------



## Bonesonthebrain

Amazing how so many people know so much more and could do such a better job than Yellowstone, yet instead of doing so they just piss and moan.

I think Yellowstone does a great job with the shoot outs, they have write ups on each rod with multiple people describing its attributes. In the end they also rank them, but like any subjective test, results will vary for each individual. 

It is a guide, a recommendation, not an end all ranking. I think the point is that the rods in the top half of the rankings are doing something better than the bottom half, not to argue over whether it is number 1 or number 3.


----------



## mac

Looking at the 2018 shootout, the top rod got a 161/170. 95% if you do the division there. The lowest rod got a 136.5/170, or 80%. Maybe it's just me but I'm happy with either of those grades, and if that lower one costs literally a tenth of the price, I'm going there.


----------



## flyfishing

Tis the indian, not the arrow...


----------



## Backwater

Seymour fish said:


> In covering a lot of ground broadly, You alluded to the “arms race” whereby a 9 in the mid ‘80s was on balance a true aftma setup, vs today it has been replaced for general flats fishing by an 8, throwing best with a line that is a true 8.75 to 9.25 aftma. Ie, the same damn line as before. As the line weights for 30’ of head are published and somewhat reliable, and the weights for the full head can be obtained, it seems reasonable to start with the actual weight of lines you need to propel the flies you intend to throw, for your conditions, for your distance, and rapidity of delivery. Then use that line or lines to test rods. Seymour


Yeah so, not necessarily all 8wts are in that catagory where the line really needs to be a little heavier. In the case of these shootout rods, most of those rods are designed to be extra fast for fishing line bonefish wading on wide open flats, airing a lot of head and running lines to make distance shots. The subsequent bonefish line has a true to weight head that has a total head lenght of 40-45ft, those the rated head weight is only for the 1st 30ft (kind of what the rating scale is all about). So it would really be unfair to that rod to cast for accuracy and make a 30ft cast, where you only have 12ft of head out of the rod, plus the rod length of 9ft, plus the leader length of 9ft (i.e. 9+9+12=30) because the rod can't even load since at that point, it's like throwing a 4wt line on an 8wt rod. So rod loading dynamics goes out the window. At that point, it's not about the rod loading but more about the skill level of the caster, changing it up from a normal fishing or distance cast to a very niched tip cast. I had a casting client once that could easily fish from 50-80ft with some punches out to 90ft, but couldn't cast 20-30ft if a bull red was sitting there laughing at him and provoking him to feed it anything. So one solution was to change out his outfit (softer rod, short heavy headed line) or change out his line to 1 weight over, short head, all without changing his casting style. Or he could learn how to cast short with his current rod setup in-hand.

I was tournament distance casting over a month ago with a light fast 11wt (NRX+) with Rio's 11wt Tarpon Technical fly line. I really loved the taper of that line, designed to have total line control over the casting/fishing distance, as long as you never let go of the line during the shoot (bad habit anyway). But tho Rio doesn't state the line weight on their website. So I call Chris at Rio (one of the line designers) and he tells me the weight of the line (of course, 1st 30ft of head length) and I look it up on the affta chart and as I'm on the phone with Chris, he warns me the rated head weight is one rod wt heavier, according to affta, that the "stated" line weight (11wt). Yes, it's basically design to cast at that tarpon 30-40ft from the boat and still pop it out there a good 60ft without too much skill lever. But making it go out further than that, takes a whole new set of skills, because to air out more of the total head length of 60ft, now you are aerializing the equivalent of a 13wt line if you need that to dump 100ft or more fly line out there to the target, which in turns overloads that thin crisp extra fast rods and causes your loops to collapse on you. So everything needs to change in your casting stroke to offset that action. So it's frustrating either way.

There are many great fly lines though to help certain rods do certain things. I'm currently doing some field testing for Rio on a new upgrade to their Direct Core Flats Pro fly line they are working on. It too is also heavier than what affta states is normal for an 8wt line. Wulff's BTT is a full line weight heavier than what they state. So the 8wt BTT is a full 9wt line. Do I think it's necessarily needed for faster rods. It depends on what the fishing conditions are and the person on the casting end of the rod. If the situation doesn't call for it (having a heavier line for over size flies, or short loading rods), then to me, it's more of a crutch for the lack of good casting skills. That's why you see many trout fly fishermen who occasionally fish the salt, use these types of lines, because up north, they are mostly only fishing 30-40ft in front of them. Overall, it's really more versatile to get a line more true to line weight (or just over) and learn casting dynamics from a good instructor (or just work at it) so you can be effective over the entire length necessary to catch that fish that shows up outside the box where you hope to find it (usually about 60-70 percent of the time).

Ted


----------



## Seymour fish

Backwater said:


> Yeah so, not necessarily all 8wts are in that catagory where the line really needs to be a little heavier. In the case of these shootout rods, most of those rods are designed to be extra fast for fishing line bonefish wading on wide open flats, airing a lot of head and running lines to make distance shots. The subsequent bonefish line has a true to weight head that has a total head lenght of 40-45ft, those the rated head weight is only for the 1st 30ft (kind of what the rating scale is all about). So it would really be unfair to that rod to cast for accuracy and make a 30ft cast, where you only have 12ft of head out of the rod, plus the rod length of 9ft, plus the leader length of 9ft (i.e. 9+9+12=30) because the rod can't even load since at that point, it's like throwing a 4wt line on an 8wt rod. So rod loading dynamics goes out the window. At that point, it's not about the rod loading but more about the skill level of the caster, changing it up from a normal fishing or distance cast to a very niched tip cast. I had a casting client once that could easily fish from 50-80ft with some punches out to 90ft, but couldn't cast 20-30ft if a bull red was sitting there laughing at him and provoking him to feed it anything. So one solution was to change out his outfit (softer rod, short heavy headed line) or change out his line to 1 weight over, short head, all without changing his casting style. Or he could learn how to cast short with his current rod setup in-hand.
> 
> I was tournament distance casting over a month ago with a light fast 11wt (NRX+) with Rio's 11wt Tarpon Technical fly line. I really loved the taper of that line, designed to have total line control over the casting/fishing distance, as long as you never let go of the line during the shoot (bad habit anyway). But tho Rio doesn't state the line weight on their website. So I call Chris at Rio (one of the line designers) and he tells me the weight of the line (of course, 1st 30ft of head length) and I look it up on the affta chart and as I'm on the phone with Chris, he warns me the rated head weight is one rod wt heavier, according to affta, that the "stated" line weight (11wt). Yes, it's basically design to cast at that tarpon 30-40ft from the boat and still pop it out there a good 60ft without too much skill lever. But making it go out further than that, takes a whole new set of skills, because to air out more of the total head length of 60ft, now you are aerializing the equivalent of a 13wt line if you need that to dump 100ft or more fly line out there to the target, which in turns overloads that thin crisp extra fast rods and causes your loops to collapse on you. So everything needs to change in your casting stroke to offset that action. So it's frustrating either way.
> 
> There are many great fly lines though to help certain rods do certain things. I'm currently doing some field testing for Rio on a new upgrade to their Direct Core Flats Pro fly line they are working on. It too is also heavier than what affta states is normal for an 8wt line. Wulff's BTT is a full line weight heavier than what they state. So the 8wt BTT is a full 9wt line. Do I think it's necessarily needed for faster rods. It depends on what the fishing conditions are and the person on the casting end of the rod. If the situation doesn't call for it (having a heavier line for over size flies, or short loading rods), then to me, it's more of a crutch for the lack of good casting skills. That's why you see many trout fly fishermen who occasionally fish the salt, use these types of lines, because up north, they are mostly only fishing 30-40ft in front of them.
> 
> Ted


Ted, Thanks for fleshing out my post with a rich layer of hands-on examples. Honest men generally arrive at the same conclusions. Take the SA Infinity 9 wt line as another example: 260 gr at 30’, yet around 390 at the full 50’ head. Many 9 and even 10 wt rods break down aerializing 50-60’ when you try to shoot that to 100. The NRX + will handle it beautifully, with accuracy and tight loops and will also throw it short with adequate feel. That rod feels like a Chrystal, too. Seymour


----------



## Backwater

TwitchAO said:


> Also "Parking Lot" was not a reference to the actual shootout but referencing how most people test the rods they are about to buy at a shop.


Yeah, I have always believed that a really good fly shop will have some really great lawn and even a casting pond set up (or an outright pond/lake of some kind) so that someone can really fell the rods out. I mean, water doesn't lie!

As far as parking lots go, there was 2 shops in the greater Tampa Bay area. One was a really great shop back in the day, in Clearwater called "The Saltwater Fly Fisherman" and the other was called "Tampa Bay on the Fly." Both demo'ed rods on an asphalt parking lot (dumb)! Both have since moved. The Saltwater Fly Fisherman close about 15yrs ago and the TB on the Fly sinve moved into a bait and tackle shop. It's a tough biz to begin with, but.... parking lot fly casting?? Geeze!


----------



## Backwater

Half Shell said:


> That's better than how people buy conventional rods in the store.
> 
> Btw, I thought the Yellowstone shootouts had a panel of judges, not just one guy?


He said he had a panel of guys.


----------



## Backwater

TwitchAO said:


> Some more food for thought is just because you are a great caster(this is by no means directed at anyone judging the shootout as I have never fished with any of them) does not mean you are a great angler. I have seen some people that are great caster and teachers absolutely loose it when real world factors are introduced into a time sensitive shot at moving fish. I have also seen people who have horrible casting techniques and can't cast outside of 50ft accurately absolutely slay fish. Distance is sometimes overvalued as being able to cast 40ft quickly and accurately can dramatically increase the amount of fish you catch while sight fishing. Yes 60-70ft sometime can be a huge advantage but a lot of times the wind in Fl makes this a challenge for most of us. You have to find a rod that gives you the most confidence and this is different for everyone. Most of us are not on the same level of casting as the judges reviewing these rods so what they like may be way different from someone not on that level. One of my close friends slays fish on a Winston boron III plus and they were alway close to the bottom on the saltwater shootouts. I don't even like them but he is dead on with his 8wt. It works for him.


Not really relevant for this thread or shootout debate, but I can tell you from what I've seen, all these guys are pretty fishy. 

That being said, I do see your point and yes I agree with you. We can go down that rabbit hole on another thread or the idea that someone can cast a $250 outfit better than someone else casting a $2500 outfit, or can catch more fish from a $250 outfit than another that spent $2500 on their outfit(s) each. I'm not knocking guys who own $2500 outfits, but rather knocking them if they think it's going to make them a better caster and/or a better fisherman. Personally, I'm glad I don't need a $2500 outfit to be any good with either!


----------



## Backwater

To wrap up this thread, here is George's 2020 8wt Shootout Review.

https://www.yellowstoneangler.com/g...JUR-B6Htd_DCY4NUKwQrnI71_VPsWIzZTJllMpMsJ_LtU

NOTE: there was only George, his son Jamie and Capt Skip this time doing the review on only 8 rods. At this point, I don't believe there was enough people doing the review, but definitely, George and Jamie has experience doing these shootouts. So it really is only based on what they feel their own experience tells them.

Remember, this Shootout is their opinion for only the 8wts. So just because one is better than the other in an 8wt with a particular line (say the SA Amp Bonefish) doesn't mean it will be better than some others that didn't even make this cut. Again, this example I used in this thread of myself in the 11wt Big Gun Distance Shootout in Orlando back in Jan of this year, I used the NRX+ with the "provided" Rio Direct Core Tarpon Technical taper. YEs the swing weight of that rod was amazing, but I felt my buddy's Sage X with the same line and it was way easier to throw and in-fact, that rod won that Big Gun Shootout. But in the 8wt, the "X" felt a little too soft for my liking with distance casting or wide open flats fishing (tho easy tossing up in the mangroves). 

So rods change as you go up and down the line and preferences changes with different fishing situations and uses for a particular size rod. So I have yet to find a rod that I love in all weights enough to buy it in every weight class that I need. But then again, that's the fun of it all is looking at other rods in each line class and feeling to see what rod will suit you in difference situations. I also encourage you share the use of your rods with the friends that you fish with (or guides that you book with, asking them what rods they are bringing with what lines) and collaborate with each other on what feels best for each fishing situation. This is what I've found for more "real world" rod evaluations for the real fishing conditions that you'll be using it for. I've told some of my fishing buddies that I'm not bringing any rods (or maybe just 1 rod) because I want to try out their stuff. This sort of thing is what helps me understand rods better. 

IMO, there is no doubt that I would like to see a totally unbiased shootout with a panel of selected expert casters, testers and rod evaluaters, for all rods (beginner, intermediate and advanced rods) in all line weights, using a variety of lines, documenting the action on each rod and putting it into a consistent report that makes sense to the common fly angler. Maybe one day. 

Ted Haas


----------



## Bonesonthebrain

Why did the two Loomis rods have such a differential on warranty scores, 10 vs a 7? Don’t they have the same basic warranty and the expedited warranty is optional? Website only shows a single warranty policy.


----------



## Seymour fish

Backwater said:


> To wrap up this thread, here is George's 2020 8wt Shootout Review.
> 
> https://www.yellowstoneangler.com/g...JUR-B6Htd_DCY4NUKwQrnI71_VPsWIzZTJllMpMsJ_LtU
> 
> NOTE: there was only George, his son Jamie and Capt Skip this time doing the review on only 8 rods. At this point, I don't believe there was enough people doing the review, but definitely, George and Jamie has experience doing these shootouts. So it really is only based on what they feel their own experience tells them.
> 
> Remember, this Shootout is their opinion for only the 8wts. So just because one is better than the other in an 8wt with a particular line (say the SA Amp Bonefish) doesn't mean it will be better than some others that didn't even make this cut. Again, this example I used in this thread of myself in the 11wt Big Gun Distance Shootout in Orlando back in Jan of this year, I used the NRX+ with the "provided" Rio Direct Core Tarpon Technical taper. YEs the swing weight of that rod was amazing, but I felt my buddy's Sage X with the same line and it was way easier to throw and in-fact, that rod won that Big Gun Shootout. But in the 8wt, the "X" felt a little too soft for my liking with distance casting or wide open flats fishing (tho easy tossing up in the mangroves).
> 
> So rods change as you go up and down the line and preferences changes with different fishing situations and uses for a particular size rod. So I have yet to find a rod that I love in all weights enough to buy it in every weight class that I need. But then again, that's the fun of it all is looking at other rods in each line class and feeling to see what rod will suit you in difference situations. I also encourage you share the use of your rods with the friends that you fish with (or guides that you book with, asking them what rods they are bringing with what lines) and collaborate with each other on what feels best for each fishing situation. This is what I've found for more "real world" rod evaluations for the real fishing conditions that you'll be using it for. I've told some of my fishing buddies that I'm not bringing any rods (or maybe just 1 rod) because I want to try out their stuff. This sort of thing is what helps me understand rods better.
> 
> IMO, there is no doubt that I would like to see a totally unbiased shootout with a panel of selected expert casters, testers and rod evaluaters, for all rods (beginner, intermediate and advanced rods) in all line weights, using a variety of lines, documenting the action on each rod and putting it into a consistent report that makes sense to the common fly angler. Maybe one day.
> 
> Ted Haas


Not so fast, Ted. Let’s take a closer look at the SA bonefish line. At 210 grains/30’ of head, with a 40 ‘ head total length, IMHO it is too light. It has been reported that the 7,8,9 series of NRX plus rods have very similar characteristics. The 9 wt which I have thoroughly tested is roughly a 9.75 using true AFTMA as a baseline, and will throw a true aftma 10 wt line well. It is therefore likely that the shootout fails to discern the full abilities of the faster stiffer rods, while demonstrating that several rods might need reclassification as perhaps 7.5 AFTMA given their failures to throw long. Since we have quality lines with head weights to fill in the gaps between aftma designations, the rod manufacturers may as well come clean and give true aftma ratings for their products. There is no need for any confusion. Seymour


----------



## Backwater

Seymour fish said:


> Not so fast, Ted. Let’s take a closer look at the SA bonefish line. At 210 grains/30’ of head, with a 40 ‘ head total length, IMHO it is too light. It has been reported that the 7,8,9 series of NRX plus rods have very similar characteristics. The 9 wt which I have thoroughly tested is roughly a 9.75 using true AFTMA as a baseline, and will throw a true aftma 10 wt line well. It is therefore likely that the shootout fails to discern the full abilities of the faster stiffer rods, while demonstrating that several rods might need reclassification as perhaps 7.5 AFTMA given their failures to throw long. Since we have quality lines with head weights to fill in the gaps between aftma designations, the rod manufacturers may as well come clean and give true aftma ratings for their products. There is no need for any confusion. Seymour


It's affta, not aftma. The 210 is dead center of the affta median recommended line weight for an 8wt class rod and the SA Amp Bonefish weighs exactly that. I will also tell you that most 8wts are different animals than a 9wt, whereas the 9wts start to become stiffer. I thought I saw you post something about using a SA Amp Infinity on your 9wt. That line does not weigh the same as their bonefish line. So the Infinity is more in tune with a 9.5wt line, which George says that Steve Rajeff states that the NRX+ rod actually was designed around lines that are slightly heavier. So if you needed a bit more line head weight to load up and cast that 8wt NRX+, then all the caster needs to do is let a bit more of the head slide out there and air out a little more, so you can feel the rod load up before the shoot. But in the case of your heavier Infinity on your 9wt NRX+, then you should be just about right.

Understand that 8wts in general are a little more forgiving than a 9wt since the 9 becomes stiffer in the NRX's. Then 10 is yet more stiffer than the 9 and so forth. For this reason, I tend to like the feel and action of a very fast 8wt, but as I go up in rod weights, I want the rods to be slightly softer as I go up in weight to get rid of that stiffness, so I can still feel the rod loading. Otherwise, it's almost tip casting a broomstick.. So I end up with a "fast" or even a med fast in a 10-12wt to get that same flow in the rod as an 8wt (especially in 10wts).

So in the 8wts, I personally believe that a true to weight line will get top results when either casting rods, making them more accurate, having a delicate presentation and reaching out there with distance casting. But remember, the fly has to fit the fly line. Then, if I need the rod to cast short, I either alter my casting to meet that need or change up a line (slightly heavier and or a shorter head) to cause the rod to flex a little more and load shorter.

So yes, the Shootout is based on what is recommended, according to affta. Remember, over lining a rod is just a crutch for either poor rod designs or poor casting skills, tho some short throwing can call for it. Also for people that want to throw bigger or heavier flies without buying the next rod up with appropriate line weight.


----------



## kjnengr

Bonesonthebrain said:


> Why did the two Loomis rods have such a differential on warranty scores, 10 vs a 7? Don’t they have the same basic warranty and the expedited warranty is optional? Website only shows a single warranty policy.


http://www.gloomis.com/content/gloomis/northamerica/usfly/en/homepage/XPEDITOR_PROGRAM.html

The policy is the same, but the price is different. All rods except the Asquith are $100 replacement, whereas the Asquith is $250. I'm sure that is what the difference is all about.


----------



## TwitchAO

kjnengr said:


> http://www.gloomis.com/content/gloomis/northamerica/usfly/en/homepage/XPEDITOR_PROGRAM.html
> 
> The policy is the same, but the price is different. All rods except the Asquith are $100 replacement, whereas the Asquith is $250. I'm sure that is what the difference is all about.


that's a bs warranty imo. Scott is $50 no questions asked if you registered the rod. I know this very well as I sent back both my meridian 7 & 9. Both were my fault (user error). My 7 broke in the butt and mid section and there was no difference in price. So the Asquith is around 10% more than the others? but the warranty is 150% more?

Edited: I still agree its better than having no warranty.


----------



## johnmauser

TwitchAO said:


> that's a bs warranty imo. Scott is $50 no questions asked if you registered the rod. I know this very well as I sent back both my meridian 7 & 9. Both were my fault (user error). My 7 broke in the butt and mid section and there was no difference in price. So the Asquith is around 10% more than the others? but the warranty is 150% more?
> 
> Edited: I still agree its better than having no warranty.


This is a whole 'nother topic that would make for an interesting thread. There's so much that goes into a company's rod warranty fee. I'm not privy to how each brand comes to their particular price but I could make some guesses.


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## MSG

FYI - I sent 2 asquith rods back for warranty- they replaced the broken section with a new one for no charge both times. Both were my fault as well.


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## TwitchAO

MSG said:


> FYI - I sent 2 asquith rods back for warranty- they replaced the broken section with a new one for no charge both times. Both were my fault as well.


That sounds more like the service you should get for a rod that high priced.


----------



## sidelock

Some people need to get out and fish more.


----------



## Drifter

I use a St Croix 8wt just because thats the rod that I always have laying around and I have 2 of them. They cost 200 bucks, it casts better then my Winston 9 wt and when you warranty them you get them back in less than 2 weeks.


----------



## Seymour fish

Backwater said:


> It's affta, not aftma. The 210 is dead center of the affta median recommended line weight for an 8wt class rod and the SA Amp Bonefish weighs exactly that. I will also tell you that most 8wts are different animals than a 9wt, whereas the 9wts start to become stiffer. I thought I saw you post something about using a SA Amp Infinity on your 9wt. That line does not weigh the same as their bonefish line. So the Infinity is more in tune with a 9.5wt line, which George says that Steve Rajeff states that the NRX+ rod actually was designed around lines that are slightly heavier. So if you needed a bit more line head weight to load up and cast that 8wt NRX+, then all the caster needs to do is let a bit more of the head slide out there and air out a little more, so you can feel the rod load up before the shoot. But in the case of your heavier Infinity on your 9wt NRX+, then you should be just about right.
> 
> Understand that 8wts in general are a little more forgiving than a 9wt since the 9 becomes stiffer in the NRX's. Then 10 is yet more stiffer than the 9 and so forth. For this reason, I tend to like the feel and action of a very fast 8wt, but as I go up in rod weights, I want the rods to be slightly softer as I go up in weight to get rid of that stiffness, so I can still feel the rod loading. Otherwise, it's almost tip casting a broomstick.. So I end up with a "fast" or even a med fast in a 10-12wt to get that same flow in the rod as an 8wt (especially in 10wts).
> 
> So in the 8wts, I personally believe that a true to weight line will get top results when either casting rods, making them more accurate, having a delicate presentation and reaching out there with distance casting. But remember, the fly has to fit the fly line. Then, if I need the rod to cast short, I either alter my casting to meet that need or change up a line (slightly heavier and or a shorter head) to cause the rod to flex a little more and load shorter.
> 
> So yes, the Shootout is based on what is recommended, according to affta. Remember, over lining a rod is just a crutch for either poor rod designs or poor casting skills, tho some short throwing can call for it. Also for people that want to throw bigger or heavier flies without buying the next rod up with appropriate line weight.


Ted, I know exactly how right with respect to the 9 wt NRX+ and the 9 wt Infinity line I am. Put the combo together, thoroughly tested with leader and fly on the lawn, against several other lines which were good but not optimal with same leader and fly. Just back from a total of 40 hours test on big bones in steady wind from 20 to 40 mph, with gusts well above that. Results were stellar. All without your input. How could such a thing happen ? What are the fucking odds ?


----------



## jsnipes

FWIW, i broke my 11 asquith (actually my brother broke it but alas) and when i sent it back they only charged me shipping. It definitely wasn’t 250


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## GladesFlyFishing

jsnipes said:


> FWIW, i broke my 11 asquith (actually my brother broke it but alas) and when i sent it back they only charged me shipping. It definitely wasn’t 250


It's only 250$ if you use the "xpeditor" program, which gets you a brand new rod in 2-3 days, no questions asked.


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## k-roc

This Xpeditor thing is totally ridiculous, 250 on top of 1100? Who they think they are?


----------



## BrownDog

Fish won’t eat a fly thrown from a sub $400 rod...FACT

I’ll also say I threw an 8wt Asquith recently and didn’t LOVE it, at least with the way I cast.


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## Backwater

BrownDog said:


> Fish won’t eat a fly thrown from a sub $400 rod...FACT


Lol, yeah that's how some people will justify that expense.


----------



## Backwater

Seymour fish said:


> Ted, I know exactly how right with respect to the 9 wt NRX+ and the 9 wt Infinity line I am. Put the combo together, thoroughly tested with leader and fly on the lawn, against several other lines which were good but not optimal with same leader and fly. Just back from a total of 40 hours test on big bones in steady wind from 20 to 40 mph, with gusts well above that. Results were stellar. All without your input. How could such a thing happen ? What are the fucking odds ?


I don't know why you're all bent out of shape. I said the Infinity was would work on the NRX+ (being more stiff than the 8wt version), since the Infinity is a 9.5wt line instead of a true 9wt. But you would get the same results by airing more line out on a bonefish line. Hello! But in an 8wt NRX+, the infinity is slightly too heavy IMO, unless someone is just doing more short loading. But hey, we are talking about 8wts on this thread. Oh and what are the F...ing odds that a heavier line will help your cast in 20-40mph winds.... Duhhh.....


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## Backwater

sidelock said:


> Some people need to get out and fish more.


Awe.... has the ice and snow thawed out for you yet? Damn, this 70+ degree weather with clear blue skies here in Florida sucks! I can't get out and do any fishing related with weather like this!


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## kjnengr

k-roc said:


> This Xpeditor thing is totally ridiculous, 250 on top of 1100? Who they think they are?


The xpeditor program gets you a brand new rod in 2-3 days, no questions asked.

If you have a little more time, or if it's a manufacturing defect, ship it in like @GladesFlyFishing did and you might not pay anything at all.

Which brings up the topic of rod warranties. Should the rod companies have to replace our rods because we mishandled them or were careless enough to place them where they get broken? 

I know fly rods are expensive, and in some ways can be fragile, but the rod manufacturer should only be liable for their mistakes, not ours - correct?


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## brokeoff

kjnengr said:


> The xpeditor program gets you a brand new rod in 2-3 days, no questions asked.
> 
> If you have a little more time, or if it's a manufacturing defect, ship it in like @GladesFlyFishing did and you might not pay anything at all.
> 
> Which brings up the topic of rod warranties. Should the rod companies have to replace our rods because we mishandled them or were careless enough to place them where they get broken?
> 
> I know fly rods are expensive, and in some ways can be fragile, but the rod manufacturer should only be liable for their mistakes, not ours - correct?


It depends on the agreement when the rod was purchased. Ten years ago an Orvis associate told me I could buy a rod, walk out of the store, snap it on my knee, and bring it back to be repaired. If a no questions asked warranty is in writing when you buy a rod then they should honor it.

I've heard of plenty of companies going beyond their warranty commitment, probably because it's good for business.

How about you can buy a rod with no warranty for $500 and know the cost of repairs while purchasing? Or a rod with a warranty for the original owner for $900? Or a transferable warranty for $1200. For you could just buy 10 lightly used TFOs for $1500?

The manufacturers have a choice and so do the buyers. I think the rule is sticking to the agreement. Maybe manufacturers could buy insurance in case their company folds.


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## kjnengr

brokeoff said:


> It depends on the agreement when the rod was purchased. Ten years ago an Orvis associate told me I could buy a rod, walk out of the store, snap it on my knee, and bring it back to be repaired. If a no questions asked warranty is in writing when you buy a rod then they should honor it.
> 
> I've heard of plenty of companies going beyond their warranty commitment, probably because it's good for business.
> 
> How about you can buy a rod with no warranty for $500 and know the cost of repairs while purchasing? Or a rod with a warranty for the original owner for $900? Or a transferable warranty for $1200. For you could just buy 10 lightly used TFOs for $1500?
> 
> The manufacturers have a choice and so do the buyers. I think the rule is sticking to the agreement. Maybe manufacturers could buy insurance in case their company folds.


I completely agree with you. If that's their policy, they gotta live by it.

My comment was more about the expectation that has developed from us fly fisherman that any and all damages should be covered. G Loomis for one, only covers manufacturer's defects in their warranty (I think). 

Several times I've pondered your comment about the "options" you mention regarding cheaper rod initially, but pay for repairs, vs lifetime replacement rod at a higher cost. I wonder what most people would choose? I wonder what is more beneficial to the rod manufacture? I don't break many rods, so I think I would go with the cheapest option and just have to pay for repairs.


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## brokeoff

kjnengr said:


> I completely agree with you. If that's their policy, they gotta live by it.
> 
> My comment was more about the expectation that has developed from us fly fisherman that any and all damages should be covered. G Loomis for one, only covers manufacturer's defects in their warranty (I think).
> 
> Several times I've pondered your comment about the "options" you mention regarding cheaper rod initially, but pay for repairs, vs lifetime replacement rod at a higher cost. I wonder what most people would choose? I wonder what is more beneficial to the rod manufacture? I don't break many rods, so I think I would go with the cheapest option and just have to pay for repairs.


I think it was triggered by some companies offering the no questions asked warranty. Then other had to follow suit.

For me I did the calculation are realized I could buy an Exocett in new used condition for 650, break it 3 times out of warranty at 150 a pop out and be in for 1,100. Or buy a new one for 925 and break it three times at 55 a pop and be in for 1,090. So I have to break a new rod 4 times before it's better to buy new. Additionally, you can recoup maybe 75% on a used rod in many cases if selling.

With that being said...I just bought two new sectors so why am I even opening my mouth?


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## sidelock

Backwater said:


> Awe.... has the ice and snow thawed out for you yet? Damn, this 70+ degree weather with clear blue skies here in Florida sucks! I can't get out and do any fishing related with weather like this!


Not surprising by the amount of time you spend behind the keyboard writing whole volumes about nothing. Oh and how's this for snow ?


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## Backwater

sidelock said:


> Not surprising by the amount of time you spend behind the keyboard writing whole volumes about nothing. Oh and how's this for snow ?
> View attachment 122126
> View attachment 122128
> View attachment 122130
> View attachment 122132
> View attachment 122134


I type fast and it's my way to giving back to the fly fishing community. You can only fish so much! So giving back is what I do here and there when I have time while drinking my morning coffee, unlike some people throwing stones with snide comments because they don't have much to say or contribute. 

That's a nice place to visit tho. I like going to those places and planning a few of those too. But this is my home waters mins from the house and this is today's weather!  So trust me when I say I get to fish any day I want to. What's the weather like at your home?


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## sidelock

Perfect


Backwater said:


> I type fast and it's my way to giving back to the fly fishing community. You can only fish so much! So giving back is what I do here and there when I have time while drinking my morning coffee, unlike some people throwing stones with snide comments because they don't have much to say or contribute.
> 
> That's a nice place to visit tho. I like going to those places and planning a few of those too. But this is my home waters mins from the house and this is today's weather!  So trust me when I say I get to fish any day I want to. What's the weather like at your home?


Perfect weather for working my bird dogs off horseback. The beauty about my home is diversity and having four seasons for a variety of sporting and outdoor activities as opposed to just hot and humid. With endless pristine wilderness and plenty of fin fur and feather and much more. Giving back is a good thing everyone should participate in, some prefer to choose wisely how to give back in a beneficial way.


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## Guest

Backwater said:


> Guys, we've all had this conversation before (multiple threads here). I look at it like a gauge, but not the end all authority. I really wouldn't consider any of these guys as excellent/perfect casters and being from Montana, several of them have an altered preference relative to guys like me and some others down here in Florida that fish windy wide open flats. For me, in 6-9wts, I want something extra light and extra fast, but not extra stiff. It also has to be light on the swing. So that being said, I like the tip to be super fast without the rest of the rod feeling stiff. Super fast, yes, but not super stiff with an overall bend to the rod that flows evenly from tip to rod butt. George on the other hand, loving a rod that flexes more in the tip, use to love the NRX. For me, the NRX was...Meh... and though it was fast, to me, it was just more of an all around fishing rod. Same thing with the Meridian and Asquith. Those rods are just "Meh.." for me. So I take what they all say with a grain of salt and know what that all means for me.
> 
> I've spend many hours with George, even on the water. He's well known throughout the industry and during some shows like iCast, they'll hide when they see him coming because he doesn't buy into all their sales pitches and tells it like it is, in an almost obnoxious way. Yes, he can rub people the wrong way and do things he shouldn't, even out there on the water. He's like a bull in a china shop. Steve Huff and I were talking one day about setting up on the beaches for poon strings and somehow Georges name came up and Steve started huffing (pun intended ) and gruffing about how George muscled his way in between where Steve was set up and the string that was heading his way, without bowing out and going down stream from Steve. I mean, there is a certain etiquette when fishing for poons and guys like Steve will follow suite, weather he has a paid charter with him or not and doesn't like muscling in on his fish, which I totally understand with Steve because I get aggravated the same way when someone does that with me. So I get it.
> 
> So no doubt, he's rough around the edges and even his personal life can follow suit and a little bit like a roller coaster. But that being said, he's persistent and consistent in his passion of evaluating equipment out there testing and evaluating the little nuances and differences of fly fishing equipment and things of that sort over the last 60yrs + of serious fly fishing, which is more to say than most of us here. So I give him that respect on those points. Though his preferences are not exactly mine, he does know good equipment when he sees it and feels it up and he is a pretty damn good caster, though not perfect, but then again, neither am I nor the guy who does those side-by-side comparison rod casting reviews on youtube for Trident (his back cast has got issues IMO). And what do you think his underlying motive is? Yes, ultimately, like George's, is to give a somewhat unbiased opinion to ultimately sell more rods of whatever flavor of the day it happens to be (both companies selling most brands out there).
> 
> So one thing I know he does is he looks at things in his eyes, and feed back from others he knows speaks mostly the same language, in regards to equipment evals, and then averages all their opinions for his public and customers out there that are advanced freshwater fly fishermen that also some saltwater fly fishing, and guys that mostly fishes the salt, but are not seriously expert fly casters. So he tries to point out what are great fast casting rods that you can still "feel" how the rod behaves, tracks well and may help give someone a slightly better edge if they upgraded to it over their older gen rods and equipment. So I see what he is doing there.
> 
> He says he doesn't get paid or bonus' from Loomis or any other mfg, except for slight improvements in higher volume pricing through higher sales (which can happen from any other mfg out there). His store (which is pretty much owned and run by his son now) actually carries about every manufacture of rods that are any good, from novice level to the high end advanced equipment. He's very clear that they wouldn't carry junk, but will carry lots of low ended products that meets starter/entry level budgets and needs, from low end, intermediate level to the high end stuff. They also take trades, like Trident. So there is no real motive to be bias from one mfg to another. It's just his opinion over the years with some others like minded, averaged in. So another point where I see what he's doing there.
> 
> If you ever met him, you'll find that he'll want to talk more about what makes a great Cuban cigar, than what makes a great fly rod. That being said, just look at it with a grain of salt, as a guide to look at what's out there and their version of comparison, then go to your local shop, try them out and see what's best for you. Yes, ultimately, his main drawl is he hopes you'll end up buying from them or at lease migrate to their website to read the article, see what they are all about, maybe buy something from their online store, or go visit their shop if you are up there or even book a guide to fish up there. In either way, it's something they do for the fly fishing public out there in hopes you'll eventually do some business with them or refer someone to them. So to me, he's a business man, with a passion for that particular thing and reviews it for the public, that ultimately promotes them and brings in business for them in some way or another. So I don't knock him for that.
> 
> I mean, I'd love to see some panel setup of very experienced expert casters, with very sharp rod evaluation skills, that are absolutely non-bias, who are all not paid, just volunteers with their passion to give back to the public, who could gather once a year and evaluate all the latest rods out there and compare them to what's currently out there. Then they could sit down and write an article with photos and even video, it a way and some sort of gauge and measurement that can be understood by the average joe fly fisherman. Good Luck with that one! I hope someone can spend the money and put that whole thing together. Heck, I'll even volunteer and contribute my 2 cents worth. And while your at it, re-do the affta chart of acceptable fly line weights (I've been saying that for years) for a system that hasn't changed since the bamboo/fiberglass days. Also while your at it, throw in a yearly fly line and fly reel review. Then we can all sit back and do our sofa commentary on how wrong they are also doing those, while some will consider it the Gospel.
> 
> Guys, To sum it up, only use this as a guide for high end rods. But it doesn't mean run out and buy it just because "THEY" said it was the best, or call them and order it based on their article. Hey, there are plenty of other good rods out there that fishes well and not in those price ranges. So, to each, there own. George's review is only for those high end performance range, what they feel has that "edge," in their own experience and preference. That's all I'm saying. So get out there, go try some fly rods on your own. You can use their shootout as a guide if you are looking at rods like that, and/or get what is a "Value" to you (price vs performance), then go out there, wet a line and go fish.
> 
> Ted Haas


Could you repeat that?


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## Backwater

sidelock said:


> View attachment 122288
> View attachment 122290
> Perfect
> 
> Perfect weather for working my bird dogs off horseback. The beauty about my home is diversity and having four seasons for a variety of sporting and outdoor activities as opposed to just hot and humid. With endless pristine wilderness and plenty of fin fur and feather and much more. Giving back is a good thing everyone should participate in, some prefer to choose wisely how to give back in a beneficial way.


Nice setting, but I prefer hot and humid and very fishy, hence the reason I'm here and do what I do. Ok so, I'm a little wordy on my post. Sorry if that offends you. And you do what to give back, aside from complaining?  Ok, I call truths and stop the digs as long as you do also. Besides, I'm a sucker for a good pointer (still love to bird hunt) and I like how consistent your fly ties are. They are very nice. 

Ok, this thread is about all worn out. I got to get back to my boat project!


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## JBH

Just got my replacement rod from loomis for an 8wt NRX. No charge as it was a factory defect and they replaced with the new NRX+. It did take them 3 months though. So far I think it’s a winner!


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## Guest

Backwater said:


> Nice setting, but I prefer hot and humid and very fishy, hence the reason I'm here and do what I do. Ok so, I'm a little wordy on my post. Sorry if that offends you. And you do what to give back, aside from complaining?  Ok, I call truths and stop the digs as long as you do also. Besides, I'm a sucker for a good pointer (still love to bird hunt) and I like how consistent your fly ties are. They are very nice.
> 
> Ok, this thread is about all worn out. I got to get back to my boat project!


Wordy? Yes, but a very interesting read none the less. Don't stop, some of us enjoy the ride.


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