# First time micro rebuild



## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

I have been lurking around this site and batteau for the last couple months while planning my first rebuild project.  I picked up the boat/motor/trailer in Dec for $660.  Not a bad price, but not a great one either when you consider that each item (boat/motor/trailer) has a set of projects to go along with it.  Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad one as I probably have more time to work on a boat in the garage than to go fishing anyway.  (A 2 year old and a 1 year old make home-based entertainment much more feasible than non-home-based entertainment.)  It is a 1955 Lone Star Boats 14.  It is 60" at the widest point and 48" at the transom.  Here it is:

























































From the landscape timbers as trailer bunks to the duct tape on the motor, I have my work cut out for me. 

The I am pretty much going to gut the hull and start over.  All the seats are coming out and I will have front and rear decking as well as creating a place (where the center seat is now) that will hold a cooler in place and have a small backrest.

On for the bow deck, I am going with a split level.  The top level will come back about 30 inches from the bow and allow for a trolling motor mount and a small casting deck.  The secondary deck will be at the current seat level and will extend back another 36 inches or so.  Under that will be battery storage and a livewell, as well as tubes on either side for rod storage.  

The center seat will be removed and I will put in a rib of 3/4 marine ply vertically oriented to give some stiffness and serve as the butt end of the rod holders.  The cooler will be fitted just in front of that rib and there will be a small removable backrest that attaches to the ply.  

The transom is gone and will be replaced and there will a rear deck about 30" long put in with a cut out for the motorwell.  The motor will be put on a mini jacker with a 4" set back and run with an ext handle. The motor runs and idles well, has good compression and pumps water.  It just isn't too pretty. (That alone made the $660 a good price.)

That is the basic game plan.  I am in way over my head but that is always more fun.  I am pretty sure that I can take a six hundred dollar boat and turn it into a boat that is worth at least two thousand, and it will only take me six months of work and four thousand in materials...the little voice in my head says: "go on craigslist right now and by a 16 foot lowe aluminum and be done with it."  But that would be too easy.

Now for the construction questions where I can use some help from you guys:

1. On the transom, I am planning on using 2 X ¾ marine plywood, laminated for the core.  How many layers and what weight of fiberglass tape and glass should I use?  I am thinking 2 or 3 layers of 1208 should do it.  On the tape, what is the reason for using 45/45 vs 0/90

2. The transom (about 48” wide) will braced with two stringers that come up to approx three inches from the top of the transom.  These stringers will form the main supports for the rear deck (about 30 inches in length).  The stringers will be about 18” apart and about 15” tall.  The deck will be notched out between the stringers to form a motorwell and the deck will be glassed into the transom on either side of the motorwell.  What size plywood should I use for the stringers, ½ or ¾ ?  Do I need to glass the entire stringer, or can I just tape the joints and coat them in epoxy?  If I glass them, what weight glass and how many layers?

3. What weight and how many layers of glass should be used for decking assuming I am using ½ marine ply? 

4. I am going to build some buoyancy compartments front and rear and am wondering about the advantages/disadvantages in cutting Styrofoam blocks for those instead of two part foam. The compartments will be completely sealed/glassed closed.

5. I am planning on leaving this a fairly rough finish and don't really care how pretty it is at the end.  I don't want to worry about dropping a castnet on the deck.  I do want it to be tough though.  I have read lots of threads on deck paints and bottom paints and I am pretty much sold on the aluminum powder and epoxy for the bottom.  Can I do something similar for the interior of the boat just using some of the texture and pigment?  If I do that should i spring for the pricey UV stabilized epoxy.  Again, not looking for pretty, but I want real tough and don't want to be painting again in a year or two.  (Cheap doesn't hurt either.)

6. I am planning on putting a livewell in eventually and I am wondering about the location of the plumbing.  The well will be under the front deck. Can you put the intake and overflow drain in up there?  If not where is the best location?  I probably wont get into doing the well for quite a while, but I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by not planning for it.

Thanks in advance.  I will document the process here as well as I can.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

The difference between the 0-90 and the 45-45 has to do with strength across seams.
Typical fiberglass tape has the composing strands oriented at 90° to each other,
in the picture below, that would be the red and the yellow lines.
The 0-90 glass has the stands oriented with the weave
parallel and perpendicular to the length of the roll.
The 45-45 has the weave running diagonally to the length of the roll.
When applied along a seam (the green line) you can see
that the 0-90 only allows half the strands to bridge the seam.
The 45-45 allows all strands to bridge the seam, increasing tensile strength.


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks Brett. That makes perfect sense.


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

> What weight and how many layers of glass should be used for decking assuming I am using ½ marine ply


Since the 1/2 plywood is strong enough all by itself, sealing with epoxy is all you need to do.
To add some abrasion resistance a single layer of 6 ounce tooling cloth can be added just to the top.

Transom knees made from 1/2 inch plywood will be plenty strong also,
when bonded to the hull with thickened epoxy, filleted in place and the joints glass taped.
When it comes down to fiberglassing seams, I like to overbuild.
I'd want 3 layers of at least 6 ounce cloth along each side.

The transom fabricated from 1-1/2 inches of marine ply is plenty strong all by itself
when bonded to the existing hull with epoxy. A single skin of 6 ounce glass can be added if you want.


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks for walking me thru all these questions.

Ok, I follow everything except this:



> Transom knees made from 1/2 inch plywood will be plenty strong also,
> when bonded to the hull with thickened epoxy, filleted in place and the joints glass taped.
> When it comes down to fiberglassing seams, I like to overbuild.
> I'd want 3 layers of at least 6 ounce cloth along each side.


Are you saying to use 3X 6oz tape for the seams to the transom and hull?  Or 3x 6oz cloth for both sides of the knees wrap those layers into both the hull and transom?


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

3 layers on each side of the knee along the hull and where it meets the transom.
I'd also want glass along the transom plywood/hull skin joint


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Ok Brett. I think I follow. Thanks, I think you just saved me about $75 (or maybe alot more) in fiberglass overkill and God only knows how much resin I would have used.

I am going to be ordering my materials in the next week or so and I am curious about your thoughts on just using textured and pigmented epoxy for the interior of the boat in lieu of a deck paint. Can I get away with that or is it just a really bad idea? If I can, should I be looking at the UV epoxy?


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## Brett (Jul 16, 2008)

I have zero experience using epoxy as a deck finish.
On my build I used paint with non-skid grit over epoxy on deck surfaces.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Pigment is added to color the epoxy to help scratches in the paint to be less noticable, it is not meant to be left uncovered.


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Hey guys, getting closer to actually starting this project. Got my fiberglass and resin the other day and soon will be off to get the marine plywood. I was originally thinking of using 2x 3/4 ply for the transom, but I hate to buy a whole sheet of 3/4 for just that. I know I could substitute 3x1/2 and wind up with the same thickness and strength. Do you think i could get away with using 2x 1/2? 

There will be 2 transom knees running nearly the full height of the transom to support the back deck, and the deck will be glassed in as well. Right now I am thinking the 3/4 may be overkill since I wont ever run more than a 25 on this boat anyway. Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

The entire transom does not need to be 1.5" thick for that size of boat.  My transom is 1/2" ply. Only the top 10" needs to be beefed up with a clamping board across the width of the transom to keep the weight and torque of the motor from flexing the transom.  I used 2 layers of 1/2" ply for this, but you can use a 1x10" oak board also.  I taped it in with 2 staggered layers of 12 oz biax tape on the inside and one layer on the outside. Either option will save you weight and money over a full 1.5" transom.  I wouldn't buy a sheet of 3/4" if I could help it.

If you glass stiffeners under your decks and a layer of 6 oz cloth on top, you can use 3/8" ply and save a bit of weight. If you camber the deck and glass both sides of the ply and place supports in the right places, you can use 1/4" ply and save even more weight, but the build will become a bit more complex. 

Nate


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks Nate. I think I want to at least run the double layer of 1/2 ply the full height of the transom however. The motor is going to be mounted using a fixed jackplate, so I want full stiffness/strength down a little lower than I would if I was just clamping the motor on the transom.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Fair `nuf. Your knees will stiffen the lower transom and tie it to the bottom of the hull, but a little bit more 1/2" ply won't add too much weight. Just beware of the "overbuild bug" as you proceed through your build. You will end up with a hell-for-stout hull, but 2# here and 5# there will add up over a build. That being said, I am more sensitive about weight than others because I won't have a trailer for a while.

Nate


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

The overbuild bug infects most projects I take on. Hence the idea of using 2x3/4 for a jonboat transom... :-/ I am very likely going to wind up with a 14' micro that weighs 1200#s dry with no fuel and an empty livewell.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Overbuild sets in most beginners projects because they just can;t believe that a piece of cloth that they can see through is going to hold anything and they have no knowledge of how strong the components are when assembled correctly. Happens more than you realize.


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## oysterbreath (Jan 13, 2009)

Good luck with your build. You've got the right people feeding you info! I will be keeping an eye on this one...


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Cool boat, but we haven't heard anything in a while. DLB, you done been pinged!

Nate


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Guilty as charged.  Been slacking.  Here are some updated photos.  Got along a pretty good ways with the demo, but it seems like the sanding will never end...been stuck at the stage you see here for the last 2 months.  Watching tv isn't as itchy.
































  

Anyway, maybe this will be the week to get back on it. Thanks for the motivation.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Looks like you got the big ugly chunks out. The side grinder makes pretty quick work of that stuff, but it is very itchy. It is the palm sander work that gets miserable. Depending on how polished you intend the finished product to be, that can take anywhere from a half hour to several months.

Anyway, let's assume you have the really itchy work behind you and the fun stuff coming up. Keep it up!

Nate


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Managed to get a couple nights in this week. Sanding and more sanding. I am definitely staying with a "work boat" finish on the interior, so I am trying not to get too carried away there. 

One question: how well will epoxy bond to old gelcoat? I am sanding the surface off of it, so it is scuffed, but do I need to take everything down to bare glass?


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

> One question: how well will epoxy bond to old gelcoat?


What are you planning? My response will be dependent on your plans.


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

First off, I have done quite a bit more sanding since those pics. The grey you see is paint. There is green gelcoat underneath. That is what I am wondering about. 

The plans are to replace the transom and add a deck to the back and front. I will be using marine ply for all of it and glassing in ribs, knees for the transom, etc. I will also be epoxying a new rail, inside and out along the full length of the boat.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Yes. Take it down to glass. Get a $30 grinder from Harbor Freight and save the sanding to make it pretty.

Your inner rails look like they are down to glass so you should be fine.


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Bad epoxy mix or cool temps?

So I finished the grinding and prep, and cut out the transom (already had it laminated 2x 1/2 in marine ply). I shaped it in, rounded the corners etc so that it would seat well against the skin. Then, I mixed a batch of epoxy to seal it, and do a couple other minor patches on the hull. As I was mixing, I lost count on the number of pump on the epoxy. Better judgement said to stop and start over. I didn't listen as I was pretty sure that I knew where I was.

That was at noon. Now, some areas are still pretty tacky and soft. Some areas seem ok. Could this just be a function of the cool temps today? I used medium speed hardener and it was about 65 in jax beach today. Right now, the boat and transom are sitting in the garage with a space heater on...hopin


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

When I use pumps I pump the liquids into graduated cups to ensure accurate measurements everytime. The pumps are great to keep the sloppy mess to a minimum but I do not rely on them 100%. Keep the heat rolling and hope for the best. Keep in mind that even though the mix may harden it will be substantially weaker than a proper mix. May be strong enough for your use but you will have to check it.

If it is not fully cured this morning - take it a part and start over.


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

It is fully hardened now. I think I am in good shape. I didn't know that I missed on the mix. I just wasn't sure I was right...

The majority of that batch was used just for waterproofing the transom. It was not really structural. So, strength isn't really an issue as long as it is still waterproof. I did some reading last night though and then went bought some graduating mixing cups. Hopefully that is the last time I do that.


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Been getting after it pretty good the last couple weeks.  Finally started building.  After a little hiccup with my first batch of epoxy, I think I am rolling now.  Got the transom glued in last night.  Sanded it down and filleted it tonight.  Should be glassing it in tomorrow or thurs.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Lookin' good!

Regarding the pumps, I use them and they do fine... as long as you never loose track of the number of pumps.  However, I mixed two bad batches (fortunately small batches) and had to scrape off the goo and start over.  Since then, I always double check my amounts on a small digital kitchen scale.  Each pump of resin is almost exactly 1 oz.  The hardener runs a little lighter, i.e. .95ish oz/pump.  For the sake of simplicity, I just add 1 oz of hardener for every 2 oz of resin.  It works great and you don't have to mark cups to measure for volume.  You still have to count pumps, but if you loose count, you will catch it when you double check yourself.  Just remember to zero out the scale with you're mixing vessel on it before you start to add resin, then check the weight before you add hardener.

I keep my scale in a gallon ziplock.  I can still see it and press the buttons, but it doesn't get covered with goo or hardened epoxy.

Nate


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Still coming along.  Every step takes longer than expected.  But so far I am pleased.  Got the transom tabbed in:









Then cut and shaped the transom knees (the tabs on the top are just to hold them while waterproofing with epoxy









The middle rib will have a cooler in front of it that will serve as the seat.  Also I will put a couple rod holders and a removable backrest in the crossmember there.
















Up front, I will have a split level deck.  The lower level ribs are what you see here.  The first 30 inches from the bow will have another deck flush with the top rail.









Here is the overall view:









For the rails, I got a 16ft pressure treated 2x8 and ripped four half inch thick strips from it.  Those will be epoxy glued in place (one inside and one outside) and the wrapped in glass.  Yes, they are very dry and will be sanded down well before gluing.  I did a test with a piece of the PT and some marine ply with a little leftover epoxy from my last batch.  The board broke off but the joint held, so I am not too worried about the bonding there.  

One question, are there any issues with using epoxy on PVC?  I am thinking of gluing in my own makeshift rod holders rather than buying them.  Give the PVC a good scuff sand and then epoxy right into the middle crossmember?  Anyone have experience with that type of application?


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Coming along nicely.

Epoxy and pvc are not good friends. Buy them.


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Ok, so after a holiday break, I got out to do some work on Saturday. I am ready to start epoxying in the transom knees and was doing a little bit of last minute sanding before i got started on that. There were a few spots that I would be gluing that still had some paint and old gelcoat that needed to go, and there was one spot with a little bit of old resin that was chipped up and a little loose. 

Anyone know about that sinking feeling that comes when you see gelcoat appear under your sanding disc...for the second time? Yeah, the gelcoat from the other side of the hull. Lame... Got a nice 1.5x 4 inch hole now. Not a big deal to patch that one, although I wasn't looking to get sidetracked with that. What I am worried about though, is how many other places in the hull skin are pretty lite on fiberglass after all the grinding I have been doing? I have found a couple and fixed them, but should I be thinking of putting a layer of glass across the entire interior of the hull? If so, what should i use? 12 oz cloth? 1208? Any suggestions would be appreciated. thanks.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

I would stop grinding so much. ;D


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Not a bad idea. Where were you 3 months ago? :-[ I just sold my ungrinder, along with my board stretcher.


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## levip (Dec 4, 2010)

if its that thin i might be inclined to lay a thin layer of glass from the bottom of the chine up the sides .... youd be surprised at how much rigidty youll gain with just one layer of finishing cloth

the bottom SHOULD be fairly thick and usually the sides is where the builder will try to save weight and materials

how many HP is that merc?

last thing you want is the thing folding in half and coming after you trimmed out and jacked up 

i ran into this problem when i was redoing the transom on my 13' waterbug the glass back there was TERRIBLY thin and it looked like it was all chopper gun glass so i layed a layer of finishing cloth ( i wanna say it was 3or4 oz) and a layer of chopped strand (5oz) and WOW the difference was amazing


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## paint it black (Nov 3, 2007)

I had a similar issue on my classic. I ended up cutting out the transom, clamping On some Formica and laid up a new transom skin. I used some chop strand, two layers of 1708 then more chop strand. Once that cured, it was grinded back and glued on some mantex, then buried with a couple layers of 1708. 

I would probably reinforce the whole hull. Wet out some 1708 over the whole thing. I would probably go with 1.5oz chop strand, then a layer of 1708....


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

So somewhere between a layer of 4oz finishing cloth and two layers of 1708. I think I can find a happy medium there. I do think that the majority of the hull is still pretty good on thickness. I am going to check it using a halogen work light shining up from the bottom. With all the paint and gelcoat removed from the inside, I think that will help me see how much fiberglass is still there. Not sure if that will work. Will post the results. 

Once I identify any thin spots I will spot patch those and then do maybe a single layer of mat and a layer of 1208. I am a little scared of 1708 because of the way the bow curves. I think that might give me some issues. 

Levi, I will be running a 25 hp on it. I am not worried about the hull buckling. There are three solid stringers (probably not the right word) on the bottom of the hull that run almost the full length. I am more worried about stepping thru the bottom or hitting and oysterbar and making an instant fountain.


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## levip (Dec 4, 2010)

yeah i feel you there


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Two layers of 4oz on the inside would be plenty. Then just repair the outside.

I just looked at an ad for an ungrinder on sale at Dewalt.  But have not seen the board stretcher on sale lately.


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Ever had something derail your project for 8 months? Step 1. Grind a hole in the bottom of the hull and have to regroup and figure out what to do about it. Step 2. Knock up the wife and have a third child.

That will derail your project. I guarantee it.

Anyway, the boy is six weeks old now and I have started back. Spot patched the hole and bought some 1208 that I am going to run the length of the interior of the hull. There were more thin spots than I thought and I figured that since everyone overbuilds their first skiff, why try to be different?

Any tips on wetting that out and laying it up? I haven't worked with the biax-mat combo before and i am a little concerned about getting enough but not too much epoxy into it? I have read the tutorials on boatbuildercentral. Still feeling a little nervous doing that much at once... I am using medium speed epoxy, so i should have plenty of time, but still don't have that peaceful easy feeling that comes when you know what the heck you are doing.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Congrats! Thats as good a reason to delay a boat project as any.

I am no help with the glass/mat, but bateau tutorials usually give you more than enough info to jump in over your head and splash around a bit. You'll either starve it or over-saturate it. That 1208 is over-spec enough that some loss of strength due to imperfect laminations will be forgiven.

Nate


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

My wife left me and took the kids. Fortunately, it was only for the weekend to visit her mom. And she didn't make me go! Which means I can actually work on the boat three days in a row with no interruptions. My wife is the best.

So, today I laid up the 1208 along the inside of the hull. I learned a few things. #1. An octopus would be better suited for this job than a human. #2. If you aren't an octopus you should ask a friend for help. #3. Next time I will ask a friend for help. Not advisable to go solo on that one. 

Had a couple of the batches of epoxy start to kick off early in the pot. A few of the upper edges (not really the part I was concerned about) didn't get wet out all the way, and a few other little ugly amateur mistakes. Oh, and there are some bubbles. Not like foam party at spring break in panama city bubbles, but not none either. 

Next up braces and decks. Pics to follow soon. Feels good to be moving on this again. This Christmas will be my two year anniversary of buying this boat...and it has been in the water twice. :'(


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

I feel you.  The end is in sight for me, but between working so I can pay bills, running to avoid being overly fat and riding my horse, the boat keeps getting prioritized away.  I have to get this thing done before my wife gets pregnant or I will be in real trouble.  Thank goodness for long weekends.  I have spent significant quality time with the sander over the last two days.

Just keep plugging away and you'll get there.  If you drag it out long enough, your son can help.

;D

Nate


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Here are some updated pics of my progress.  Looking at the pics it doesn't seem like it should have taken as long as it did.  But progress is progress 

This is the hull after laying up the 1208 from bow to stern










next I drilled the drain plug hole and glassed it in using epoxy thickened with wood flour










from there, the transom knees were positioned.  I used a couple two by sixes attached with drywall screws to keep them square and plumb during the glue up.  they were removed after everything dried.


































finally i glassed in the main rib.  this will have a cooler mounted in front of it for the middle seat.



















Next up is will be the front two ribs, then the front and rear decks, and last the rails.


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## WhiteDog70810 (May 6, 2008)

Looking good. It is nice to get those support structures in so that the sides stop flopping around. Keep it up.

Nate


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## DLBjaxbeach (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks Nate.  Little by little.  Shooting for at least 1 night per week.  Maybe next summer I can fish. 

Next up is the back deck. I have the two transom knees as the main supports.  I am trying to decide how to tie the outside edges of the deck into the sides and transom. 

Should I epoxy some blocks and just glue the deck to those? or would it be better to filet and glass the underside with no blocks? If I go that route what glass should I be using and how many layers? Input is appreciated.

Regardless of which way I go on the underside, i will be filetting and glassing the topside for stiffness and a clean look.


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