# Mono leaders and Flip Pallots advice



## AZ_squid (Mar 14, 2018)

Watched a video yesterday evening featuring Flip Pallot talking about leader building. He used mono to build his saltwater leaders out to 13 or 14 feet. His method is to cut the loop off the end of the fly line and snell the leader material to the fly line. He said the loop to loop adds a bunch of weight and doesn't deliver the cast properly. He also runs the leader as mostly butt section with only a 10-12" mid section and a 1-2' tippet. Has anyone tried doing this? If so, they use cortland leader material in the video. I'm interested in trying it, though my experience with mono leader material is that it has terrible memory and doesn't sink a fly near as well as flouro. I always build my leaders with a loop to the fly line about 60% butt section and all flouro. Just curious on y'alls thoughts.


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## Loogie (Jul 24, 2019)

I’ll add my .02c, I believe Flip is making an assumption that anyone can cast a 14’ leader, I have been fly casting for over 30years, and I’m not gods gift to fly casting but I am pretty sure I can hang with anyone’s ability to cast. A 14’ leader is difficult to cast accurately in any condition Much less windy. If you have a 9’ leader, with a 6’ ghost tip like a flats pro ghost tip line, then you can have the same stealth Flip is looking for and you’ll be able to control the cast better. The loop connection is definitely not noticeable in my opinion, but everyone has an opinion… I’ll take a 9’ or less accurately placed at whatever distance I can cast any day before trying a 13-14’ leader that I can barely get to turn over at 60+. 
i think sometimes these famous fly casters loose touch of reality, doesn’t mean it’s bad advice, it just means they are operating at a different level most of us will never be at…


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## Bonesonthebrain (Jan 2, 2020)

I make my own bonefish leaders using both hard mono and fluorocarbon. Usually about 5 ft of butt section (40-50 lb), 3 ft of mid section (20-25 lb) and 2-3 ft of tippet (12-16 lb). Need to stretch them before use to reduce memory and check the knots. Similar formula for tarpon, redfish and snook, just adjust the line poundage for the fly rod line weight and tippet required for given species.

Use loop to loop connection with twist to stiffen up the loop to loop connection. Not sure I would ever be able to tell the difference in weight of this compared to a nail knot connection. But I definitely can tell a difference between my leaders and single tapered leaders in terms of turning the fly over.

Knots are a personal preference, I use a slim beauty and perfection loop. Have tried other knots, but for whatever reason I can tie a slim beauty very well and have not had any issues with it.


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## AZ_squid (Mar 14, 2018)

@Loogie , I think you're spot on with the difficulty level of throwing a leader 13 foot plus. I usually tie mine in the 10-13 foot range and it definitely adds a level of difficulty to the turnover. I believe that's why he was saying to run such a long butt section to keep the energy down the leader as long as possible. I'm not even close to a perfect fly caster and have only really been truly trying to master the sport since 2017, I definitely have a long long way to go before I'd even consider myself proficient. I fish with some guys that blow my mind with how smooth and accurate they are on the bow. 

@Bonesonthebrain appreciate the advice! I'll definitely have to make sure and stretch the mono leader if I decide to tie one up. Never tried the slim beauty before, I'll have to give it a shot. This forum is always a wealth of information, thank you.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

If the butt section matches the fly line, the butt is just an extension of the fly line that is clear, not any more difficult to cast. Match refers to same density and flexibility as the fly line. When you find the match to your fly line, whether mono or flouro, make it at least five feet long, then a short transition, then a longer bite tippet. A proven formula for sure


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

Mono vs fluorocarbon depends on conditions you are fishing and what you want the fly to do, sink or float. Big changes in diameter of leader at knots seem to hinge in my experience.


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## Clamfoot (Jun 21, 2021)

I am no great caster either but I did raise this topic a few months ago. If you search "DIY saltwater leader proportions". you will find mostly really good advice.

I have tried a few different recipes and what dramatically improved my casting and accuracy out to 60ft was going to a longer and harder butt section. 75-15-10 about 12-15 ft total length for a 6wt and 9wt. I step down my line diameter and the material stiffness. 75% Hard masons, 15% Ande mono leader, 10% Yozuri Flouro. Thanks to EVERYONE on that thread, all of you helped. 


!00% agree with loogie's input which means a lot depends on your skillset, casting style, and even what you are trying to accomplish.

In my typical situation, 90% of the time I'm casting 1/80 th dumbbell weighted crab/shrimp patterns close to mangroves in 6-18inches of water. Blind casting 40-50% of the time. This means, I make a lot of casts in a day and want to drop them within 10 inches of a branch or hit it and have it fall next to the branch, or I'm targeting a gap in the bushes.

I know how far I want to have the skiff standoff so that I can have good control over distance and I need to be able to roll the leader over to get it in tight where I want it. I also don't need to worry too much about spooking fish with my fly landing and don't need to worry about the fly being "alive" right at the landing. I'm more concerned with accurate distance and a good sink rate. Once I went to the 75-15-10 recipe and a Hard Masons butt, life got way better. I also stretch the leader out before starting the day and periodically during the day. 

If I was casting a baitfish pattern trying to lead a spooky cruising snook in 24- 30 inches of open clear water I might want something longer and more subtle knowing that I want to slide that fly in front of the fish and have it look alive and somewhat erratic. Maybe a long soft leader 60-25-15

If I were deep-dropping (TIC) heavily weighted flies into 4-6ft I'd want all fluoro really long.

With regards to the connections, I go fly line loop to perfection loop butt. Perfection loop-loop butt to the midsection, Blood knot mid to tip.
The 2nd loop-loop connection (butt to mid) helps the on-the-water change out when the mid and tip get beat up and trimmed back. I pre-tie a bunch of mid-tips.
So, I have two loop-loop in my system (Flip would flip out.) but my eyes are old and tying blood knots on the boat after getting up at 4 am and making 50+ casts ain't happening, and the 2nd loop-loop works for me. 

I honestly think that you need to find your own recipe for your type of fishing. Mine is a little Flip, a little @*Miles813 *and* @IRLyRiser *but I prefer the hard Masons long butt section for what I'm doing.


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## Nway93 (May 9, 2016)

I have used his formula for a few years now after meeting him and decided to give it a try. It works if you use the right butt material. It actually turns over better then any pretapered leader you’ll find. I also don’t like loops and will chop the front one off as soon as I get a new line.

Biggest thing with his formula is look at the diameter and stiffness of the mono not pound test. While I’ll use 25lb sa mono you’d need like 50lb ande.


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## Tommy1 (Mar 3, 2016)

And then everyone cut off the plastic push pole foot that will last a lifetime and glued on a guava one because they watched that video.

At least fly line is cheaper than a push pole.

Let the cutting commence!


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## goose_ (Jun 3, 2021)

Chico Fernandez has similar thoughts about fly line loop to loops in his redfish book, and goes in depth on material stiffness as well. He also says that a 9-10 foot tapered leader and a spool of tippet will work for a lot of people especially while they’re working through the initial learning curve that is saltwater fly fishing, so that’s what I do for now.


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

I use stiff hard mono of equal lengths of 2 1/2 feet each depending on what I am fishing for start with say 30 lb and work my way down until the tippet which I use fluorocarbon. No problem throwing 12 foot leaders, turn overs nicely with my 7 thru 9 wt. I do sometimes just go from 30 to 20 hard and then 20 or 15lb fluoro.


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## Drifter (Dec 13, 2018)

I just put a 9 ft - 12 lb mono leader. Then 30 if its snook, 10 lbs if its not. then I cut it down until its like 5 ft long and I just have to put a new one on. Except for big tarpon, basically get no refusals.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Tommy1 said:


> And then everyone cut off the plastic push pole foot that will last a lifetime and glued on a guava one because they watched that video.
> 
> At least fly line is cheaper than a push pole.
> 
> Let the cutting commence!


Shit I just watched it for the first time and I’m halfway through cutting all my push pole feet off. What now?


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## AZ_squid (Mar 14, 2018)

Some really good input in here guys, I'd considered the hard mason route for butt section as well. For musky leaders I run a loop to loop for the mid to class/bite. I've never hooked up on one of those picky a-holes but it casts as well as a musky fly will cast.
I guess I need to figure out my tip diameter if I'm going to start castrating my fly lines and nail knotting. Haha


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

AZ_squid said:


> Some really good input in here guys, I'd considered the hard mason route for butt section as well. For musky leaders I run a loop to loop for the mid to class/bite. I've never hooked up on one of those picky a-holes but it casts as well as a musky fly will cast.
> I guess I need to figure out my tip diameter if I'm going to start castrating my fly lines and nail knotting. Haha


A buddy of mine doesn’t use tapered leaders, just straight 10’ of 20# mono


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## AZ_squid (Mar 14, 2018)

@Smackdaddy53 
I've done that off the jetty with good results since you want a cast to pile in heavy current anyways.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I always cut the plastic loop off then nail knot the butt on. Then blood knot down till I get to tippet. Then I surgeon knot a loop then I put a bimini knot on one end of my tippet and loop it to the surgeon. This allows you to use mono or floro for your tippet. You can make this as long as you think you can cast
I credit @FlyBy for the bimini tippet loop
I'd cut off my PP foot but I don't have a guava tree


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## Drifter (Dec 13, 2018)

AZ_squid said:


> Some really good input in here guys, I'd considered the hard mason route for butt section as well. For musky leaders I run a loop to loop for the mid to class/bite. I've never hooked up on one of those picky a-holes but it casts as well as a musky fly will cast.
> I guess I need to figure out my tip diameter if I'm going to start castrating my fly lines and nail knotting. Haha


I know. Im a true Flyfishing dirtbag.


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## AZ_squid (Mar 14, 2018)

Drifter said:


> I know. Im a true Flyfishing dirtbag.


Lol


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## Paul Mills (Mar 26, 2018)

Heck I even made a video about my leader! My leader setup for Flytackle NZ

They're all along the same lines. Transfer the energy of your fly line and get your line and leader laying out straight. Mono for shallow, flouro for deeper stuff. 

I'm not cutting the foot of my pole!!


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

I was talking with a friend of mine who guided in the Keys and Gulf coast for many years and asked him what he used for bone fish, he said 6' of butt section attached to as much bite tippet as you can cast. He liked poor boy leaders, and was not much into tapering them down. Me, I taper them some.

I cut the loops and nail knot mainly because it runs through the guides smoother. The diameter of the mono used for the butt section is more important than line test. For my lighter setups, 6-9 wt, I use a Nail knot to the fly line 5'-7', perfection knot to perfection knot for mid section connection to butt 2'-3', blood knot or improved blood knot to a long section of bite tippet. Not uncommon for me to have one rod rigged up with a really long leader with a fine tippet for spooky redfish tailing and a second rod with a shorter leader and heavier tippet for tossing feathers under the mangroves. No one size leader works for everything.


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## sevenweight (Sep 3, 2015)

Since I finally found a good needle knot tool to replace the one I lost 30+ years ago(!), I'm gradually getting rid of all my built-in loops in favor of a needle knot connection. I prefer the low-profile connection to the slightly clunky loop-to-loop, especially when using super-stiff butt materials. The butt section of my leaders (25- or 30-lb Rio Hard Mono) lasts about as long as a fly line. I'm experimenting with Micro Swivels for connecting tippets. That way I figure I'll practically never need to cut into my largest butt section to mend a leader. So far so good.
Needle knot tool
Micro swivels


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## mfdevin (Jun 18, 2020)

Chuck ragan cuts his welded loops, and makes his own loop with 3 nail knots, and uv cures it, builds his leaders from mono. I personally fish straight fluoro a lot of the time, and have recently been messing with building my own tapered leaders. I am fishing dirty water redfish, and warm water fish in my area, so if it casts, and holds up to what I’m fishing it doesn’t really make too much of a difference tbh. Interesting to read other folks leader methods though


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## goose_ (Jun 3, 2021)

sevenweight said:


> Since I finally found a good needle knot tool to replace the one I lost 30+ years ago(!), I'm gradually getting rid of all my built-in loops in favor of a needle knot connection. I prefer the low-profile connection to the slightly clunky loop-to-loop, especially when using super-stiff butt materials. The butt section of my leaders (25- or 30-lb Rio Hard Mono) lasts about as long as a fly line. I'm experimenting with Micro Swivels for connecting tippets. That way I figure I'll practically never need to cut into my largest butt section to mend a leader. So far so good.
> Needle knot tool
> Micro swivels


do you fish topwater at all with the swivels?


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## sevenweight (Sep 3, 2015)

goose_ said:


> do you fish topwater at all with the swivels?


Yes I do. Lots of topwater. Those swivels are tiny and I’m fishing big gurglers, poppers, crease flies, etc. #1, 2/0, etc. are typical, but I’ve fished what I think are #4 gurglers without issues. I’ve observed at close range. BTW, the link I provided is for the 25# test swivels. I actually use the 40#, not for breaking strength, but because the .018 dia 16# hard mono I use won’t fit through the ring of the 25# swivels.


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## goose_ (Jun 3, 2021)

sevenweight said:


> Yes I do. Lots of topwater. Those swivels are tiny and I’m fishing big gurglers, poppers, crease flies, etc. #1, 2/0, etc. are typical, but I’ve fished what I think are #4 gurglers without issues. I’ve observed at close range. BTW, the link I provided is for the 25# test swivels. I actually use the 40#, not for breaking strength, but because the .018 dia 16# hard mono I use won’t fit through the ring of the 25# swivels.


Awesome man. I will definitely try.


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## goose_ (Jun 3, 2021)

Double post - sorry


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I use this for nail knots. I have to look at the instructions to check cause I don’t tie nail knots every day it’s a once and done type of thing but I carry this thing in my fly tackle bag just in case. I would lose a needle. I like the way Flip tied one in his video just don’t know which tag end to pull


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

permitchaser said:


> I use this for nail knots. I have to look at the instructions to check cause I don’t tie nail knots every day it’s a once and done type of thing but I carry this thing in my fly tackle bag just in case. I would lose a needle. I like the way Flip tied one in his video just don’t know which tag end to pull
> View attachment 187124


I have used the same tool for years, makes tying a nail not very easy


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## sevenweight (Sep 3, 2015)

The tools of ignorance, as Yogi Berra might have said….


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## MRichardson (May 27, 2010)

The takeway here is it doesn't really matter all that much, we're not casting tiny dry flies on 2-wts. 
Even tiny bonefish flies are heavy compared to trout flies.

The only real mistake we can make is not enough ass in the leader to turn it over (bass bugs and bulky flies). Easy fix, up the diameter/stiffness of the butt or leader and carry on! If you're not sure if it's working, it's probably working.


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

I'm surprised a little that someone has not come up with an adhesive to glue a mono leader together replacing knots.


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## kjnengr (Jan 16, 2018)

permitchaser said:


> I use this for nail knots. I have to look at the instructions to check cause I don’t tie nail knots every day it’s a once and done type of thing but I carry this thing in my fly tackle bag just in case. I would lose a needle. I like the way Flip tied one in his video just don’t know which tag end to pull
> View attachment 187124


I put a couple of toothpicks in the zippered pouch in my boat bag where I keep my leader/tippet materials. 

I like Flip's method as well. It's not too difficult to remember which line to pull because if you do it the wrong way, your butt section will facing toward your fly line as opposed to away from it.


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## Alvin Dedeaux (Jul 27, 2017)

😂


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Alvin Dedeaux said:


> 😂


You selling a boat too?


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## Alvin Dedeaux (Jul 27, 2017)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> You selling a boat too?


Not right now.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

I looked at Flips video and got it so I tried a test piece and then my 9 wt. easy. I put some Plio Bond on it.


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## Reid9098 (Dec 30, 2020)

after watching that video in September I cut the loops off and built the leader per Flip’s instructions. I’m not a competition caster but I was able lay out the cast better than any other leader I’ve used. I won’t go back to using loops for saltwater fishing. I may even consider the setup for my freshwater rigs substituting a tippet ring for the blood knot giving me option to rig for dry flies or nymphs.


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## michael21 (Feb 24, 2010)

AZ_squid said:


> Watched a video yesterday evening featuring Flip Pallot talking about leader building. He used mono to build his saltwater leaders out to 13 or 14 feet. His method is to cut the loop off the end of the fly line and snell the leader material to the fly line. He said the loop to loop adds a bunch of weight and doesn't deliver the cast properly. He also runs the leader as mostly butt section with only a 10-12" mid section and a 1-2' tippet. Has anyone tried doing this? If so, they use cortland leader material in the video. I'm interested in trying it, though my experience with mono leader material is that it has terrible memory and doesn't sink a fly near as well as flouro. I always build my leaders with a loop to the fly line about 60% butt section and all flouro. Just curious on y'alls thoughts.


Great stuff thanks for sharing!


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## AZ_squid (Mar 14, 2018)

michael21 said:


> Great stuff thanks for sharing!


Sure thing man, I thought it was pretty interesting.


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## Donovanbest (Aug 10, 2021)

I’ll stick with floro for the abrasion resistance and it’s ability to sink


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