# Red Tide and algae blooms in SW Florida



## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

Well it probably had nothing to do with the releases from the big O. Definitely gonna need to run some tests for a few million and results should be in by 2020


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## Redbelly (Jan 23, 2016)

Crap!!


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2018)

And spend a bunch of money and time building those decontaminating stations to toss in the water to attemp to clean it when they know how to fix it already! We are that organization, it’s up to us to do this!


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> And spend a bunch of money and time building those decontaminating stations to toss in the water to attemp to clean it when they know how to fix it already! We are that organization, it’s up to us to do this!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Sarcasm? A lot of it has to do with the release of water from Big O! But not all of it. Big sugar and super farmers with their fertilizers run offs from their fields, as well as phosphate and sulfric acir enriched water on top of all of Big Phosphate's Gyp stacks and that affluent water drainage out of their holding ponds on top of those gyp stacks, to make ready for hurricane season, that drains into the system that drains into Big O and the Caloosahatchee River system. All of that makes a toxic cess pool of fertilizer enriched slurry water when then the Army Corp of Engineers are instructed to get rid of it all by opening up all the locks between Lake O and the Gulf of Mexico, when then that water runs out. The results are the fertilizers reach the saltwater born algae and causes them to bloom. The blooming process zaps all the oxygen out of the water, which causes them to die. But with that cess pool of toxic water, comes other things mixed into it, like the Sulphric Acid that Big Phosphate is using to seporate the Phosphate from the rock. They can't get rid of those acids, so it's pump up top of those holding ponds on top of each gypsum stack (mountain) (see Google earth or sattilite and zoom into those Phosphate mining opperations and you see what I'm talking about, toxic lakes supended hundreds of yards up off of ground level) in hopes they will evaporate (which Florida is now starting to experience acid rain from it). But when the big rains come, it can also make those holding ponds get too full and therefore will overflow, causing a toxic hazardous mess and fish kills all around it. So they are mixing low levels of those toxic lake water, in with freshwater to get rid of it, low enough to not kill local fish, but when it reaches the saltwater, it causes the algaes to bloom un-naturally and out of it's normal rate, which creates the red tide. 

The "red tide" get's it's name by the reddish, brownish color it makes in open clear saltwater, contrasting against each other. You can sit there in clear beach water and see it coming down the beach. You can see fish sitting there like snook and such and then watch the red tide move over them and the fish will roll up to the surface being suffocated to death. I've personally witness this happening on more occasions than I want to think about.

The problem is, there is no force big enough, powerful enough, financially stout enough and ethically enough (not getting their pockets lined) and also have the balls enough to go head to head. The State is not doing enough and politicians either get paid-off to do nothing or fear for their future if they take this challenge head on. Even palms are being greased in Washington to do nothing about it and all it to continue. It's really so corrupted, it;s nauseating.

People in general needs to know the cause and agree to band together and support groups that are non bias and are spear heading this effort to get the EPA involved (another corrupted organization), but holding them accountable.

That last giant sink hold created by Big Phosphate in Bartow, they got a slap on the wrist with a $500k fine. Big deal, they made billions from that site and mother nature conveniently took care of the hazardous waste they created there. Unfortunately, that toxic crap is now in all of West central and SW Florida's aquifers. So be careful what you are drinking.

Does it sound like I'm pissed-off? Yes I am!!!


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2018)

Well then, Somali and I are on board! Whi else is in??? He and I can’t... or rather probably shouldn’t do it on our own! If we band together as one united and demand actiin then the government will have no choice than to fix the problem! I ain’t sceered to take on the mob! Like Toby said... I ain’t as good as I once was... keep this one about the water folks, let’s get something done. We can argue about the other crap later. The kids need the water!


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Anybody read Rules for Radicals? How about a big sit in at the locks? Megaphones, signs, fly fisherman handcuffing themselves to equipment like dirty hippies?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2018)

SomaliPirate said:


> Anybody read Rules for Radicals? How about a big sit in at the locks? Megaphones, signs, fly fisherman handcuffing themselves to equipment like dirty hippies?


Works for the hippies, I’m in! Just remember in order for us to be considered piece-full demonstrators you’ll have to leave the m1-A at home. I know it hurts but it’ll be ok lol!


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2018)

How many members on this forum alone? If we come together with folks we know, we could make one hell of a statement! Let’s contact the hippy lawyers Morgan and Morgan up, he likes to fight the government!


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Here's some reading to do - and as usual you'll find me sounding off as well...

https://www.microskiff.com/threads/sounds-like-the-corps-is-going-to-dump-the-big-o-again.52102/
https://forums.floridasportsman.com/discussion/261022/bull-sugar-adam-putnam#latest
https://forums.floridasportsman.com/discussion/259803/red-tide#latest

These are only a few small items about what is an ongoing serious problem. I just joined Captains for Clean Water (and should have done it months ago...). The CCA is now beginning to pay more attention as well to this issue...

Remember all the work it took to get the net ban passed... this is more important....


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## tcov (Apr 7, 2018)

We need to clean up the farming/agricultural practices. Too many chemicals. We wouldn't have to worry about where the water is going if it wasn't polluted.


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## RobA (Aug 21, 2015)

There's a new video going around facebook of a dead manatee washed up at the Cape Yacht boat ramp. A couple a manatee calves are hanging around it and one of them "hugged" the dead mother. Seems like the kind of thing that could go viral. Manatees dying is the kind of thing that will get folks outside of Florida interested. 

This red tide is terrible. The fish kill is unbelievable.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Alva boat ramp Sunday and the bridge


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

I'm starting to think a big, aggressive protest at one of the locks is in order. It would need some level of organization and we would need a lot of people so as not to look like idiots. Tip off local media that it's going down, have designated camera folks in our ranks to post to social media and YouTube. Make sure everybody knows the rules, ie be aggressive but non-violent, don't actively resist cops, etc. There is the real possibility of somebody needing bail money before it's over though.


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

I am surprised this hasn't happened already. There has to be some reason it hasn't already been done by bullsugar or capts for clean water. If it does happen I would be willing to fly down to be there and support it. I do what I can spreading the word on social media and talking to folks out here but this really needs more national attention!! I would think getting the national networks to cover it would really help the cause! I live in Colorado and most folks are ignorant to what is happening, and am constantly educating myself on this issue through posts by you guys, links and reading. This is an ecosystem, environment and fishery that simply does not exist anywhere else in the world! If it isn't worth saving what the hell is!?!?


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

The Corp of Engineers has no choice but to release water east and west to prevent Big O levee damage and flooding south. Wishing no harm to the people south of Big O but the worst case event to trigger action would be a catastrophic collapse of the levee. The problem is way beyond the state of Florida to solve. Federal action is required and that will take time and votes as it should.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Fishshoot said:


> I am surprised this hasn't happened already. There has to be some reason it hasn't already been done by bullsugar or capts for clean water. If it does happen I would be willing to fly down to be there and support it. I do what I can spreading the word on social media and talking to folks out here but this really needs more national attention!! I would think getting the national networks to cover it would really help the cause! I live in Colorado and most folks are ignorant to what is happening, and am constantly educating myself on this issue through posts by you guys, links and reading. This is an ecosystem, environment and fishery that simply does not exist anywhere else in the world! If it isn't worth saving what the hell is!?!?


I would fly in to participate/protest. I will probably trailer the skiff to ENP in two weeks anyway if I get a weather window.


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2018...ad-sea-turtles-scientists-blame-red-tide.html


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

We spent three weeks in the Gasparilla area in June and early July. The beach was swimmable THREE DAYS. The water is brown red, the air is irritating to the nose and throat, and dead fish everywhere. It is affecting the "inside" fisheries, too. Places like Lemon Bay, Placida Sound, and Charlotte Harbor. Boca Grande had noticeably smaller numbers of tarpon (in my opinion). We saw everything from breeder snook to large black drum and full-sized goliath groupers...and everything in between...dead and floating, or on the beach. It is absolutely a disaster for the SWFL economy. Yes, the red tide is naturally occurring. However the influx of extra nutrients has caused it to literally never subside. Saddened.


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## hunterbrown (Feb 17, 2014)

Why not do some sort of demonstration on the water with skiffs? Most people here have a skiff and 20-30 boats showing up somewhere would be a hell of a lot bigger deal than 20-30 people. Pick a weekend date (maybe August 12th?) and a significant place and lets do it. People who don't have boats could still meet up and participate. 

I haven't seen upper Charlotte Harbor be this bad for this long in my life.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

hunterbrown said:


> Why not do some sort of demonstration on the water with skiffs? Most people here have a skiff and 20-30 boats showing up somewhere would be a hell of a lot bigger deal than 20-30 people. Pick a weekend date (maybe August 12th?) and a significant place and lets do it. People who don't have boats could still meet up and participate.
> 
> I haven't seen upper Charlotte Harbor be this bad for this long in my life.


Not a bad idea. I feel that we're going to have to somehow interfere or become a perceived threat to lock operations to get any attention though. Does anybody know if there is a ramp with easy lock access?


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Now they went and killed a manatee where the hell is pita at?


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## Hardluk81 (Jan 3, 2016)

I heard a local guide on a radio show he does every weekend say. If we fisherman want to be heard we should organize and rally up. Everyone should hook up to their boat go downtown of chosen city and cause major traffic jams ... I’m pretty sure that would get some publicity. He also added that most fishermen would rather stand at the ramp and bitch to one another than do anything.


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## ShugC (Apr 23, 2016)

This situation sucks. Everything is dead or Dying. The CCA is only starting to care cause their precious tagged redfish are probably now floating on the surface and a smart unscrupulous angler could join and just go pick it up to win a boat. Write your congressmen and house of representative members to take action now or let them know we will vote them out of office. Red Blue who cares they either support us as businessmen and women, protect our waters and save our way of life or we return them to private life. I am an effected business. My small bait and tackle shop not only has to try and build its loyal customer base as a new store but now I have to contend with the fact no-one wants to go fishing in estero bay or surrounding area due to the red tide, toxic algae and massive fish kills. Hopefully we can all put enough pressure on the government that they do something useful and save our waters and beaches. "rant finished"


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

I'm in for a riot and a trip to jail


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)




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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Ben said:


> I'm in for a riot and a trip to jail


Grown up me is saying this is stupid and I have kids on the way. The 20 year old in my head is trying to convince me to brew molotovs.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2018)

SomaliPirate said:


> Grown up me is saying this is stupid and I have kids on the way. The 20 year old in my head is trying to convince me to brew molotovs.


Grown up me is tired of it all and is willing to let 20yr old me have at it!


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

It's sad and been ignored for far to long... Captains for Clean Water is a group trying to get the point across if you want to join one... 

Unfortunately the Army Core has only 1 interest in this fight, and thats the **** that surrounds the lake. They need to fix the ****, not just keep patching it... then SFWMD need's to build more Storm Water Treatment Areas to clean the water before its released.

The EPA needs to find a way to isolate the polluters and force them to resolve the pollution issues...

The Red Tide has been happening as long, longer, than I have been alive and I'm 68, its just worse some years that other's but usually starts far North of the Lake Discharge... but when like this year its a bad Red Tide event, then mixes with the polluted water being discharged from Lake 'O it creates a much worse situation as it has this year.

The Politicians talk and dance but never really do anything. For example Rick Scott had an offer to purchase land for a new STA and approval form voters by 75% for the funds to purchase the land and build the STA and squandered the monies elsewhere... Be careful who you vote for history tells us that most say one thing but do something else when in office.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

krash said:


> It's sad and been ignored for far to long... Captains for Clean Water is a group trying to get the point across if you want to join one...
> 
> Unfortunately the Army Core has only 1 interest in this fight, and thats the **** that surrounds the lake. They need to fix the ****, not just keep patching it... then SFWMD need's to build more Storm Water Treatment Areas to clean the water before its released.
> 
> ...


That skeletor looking piece of shit was a garbage governor and will be just as shitty of a congressman.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Backcountry 16 said:


> That skeletor looking piece of shit was a garbage governor and will be just as shitty of a congressman.











Come on, a politician wouldn't do us wrong, now would he?


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

krash said:


> The Red Tide has been happening as long, longer, than I have been alive and I'm 68, its just worse some years that other's but usually starts far North of the Lake Discharge... but when like this year its a bad Red Tide event, then mixes with the polluted water being discharged from Lake 'O it creates a much worse situation as it has this year.


Absolutely agree. However, this is a scientific fact that is often used to minimize the current situation. It pisses me off to no end that many of the current news articles end with this fact/caviot: "red tide is naturally occuring". The salient fact is that all of our polution is causing a yard lizard to become godzilla.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Here is my take on it Lake O is the toilet the caloosahatche river and st lucie river are the pipes and the gulf and ocean are the septic tank. They're simply flushing the toilet on us.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

SomaliPirate said:


> Grown up me is saying this is stupid and I have kids on the way. The 20 year old in my head is trying to convince me to brew molotovs.


 We think a like but my kids are past 10 and will be fine without me. This shit is beyond criminal. BP oil rig was a preventable accident. This shit was done knowning what the negative consequences would be all to benefit special interests.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

mwolaver said:


> Absolutely agree. However, this is a scientific fact that is often used to minimize the current situation. It pisses me off to no end that many of the current news articles end with this fact/caviot: "red tide is naturally occuring". The salient fact is that all of our polution is causing a yard lizard to become godzilla.


Its been here since October. Is there any record of places having red tide sustained for such a long period in one place? The one in late 2003 early 2004 was really bad but this is that and all the others since combined.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

Selling the boat and buying fire arms is starting to sound logical. I hate when people I think are crazy actually have a good point.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Ben said:


> We think a like but my kids are past 10 and will be fine without me. This shit is beyond criminal. BP oil rig was a preventable accident. This shit was done knowning what the negative consequences would be all to benefit special interests.


Conservative or liberal, Rep or Dem, they truly don't give a rat's ass about any of us. I learned that in the middle east and it's being driven home now. They care about power and money above all else.


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## Finn Maccumhail (Apr 9, 2010)

I know the Everglades have historically filtered this water but it's not natural to handle the amount of nutrients in this water. However, what would happen to the Glades if they just flushed Okeechobee south through all that agricultural land and into the Glades?

Would the Glades effectively filter it? Would the nutrients overwhelm the ecosystem?


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2018)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> I know the Everglades have historically filtered this water but it's not natural to handle the amount of nutrients in this water. However, what would happen to the Glades if they just flushed Okeechobee south through all that agricultural land and into the Glades?
> 
> Would the Glades effectively filter it? Would the nutrients overwhelm the ecosystem?


They could plant heavy feeding plants in that land for a yr or three to absorb the excess that is there, then re plant with native species fit for long term. That should clean the soil and filter the flow. Where there is a will there is a way. If they just dumped the water now it would most likely overwhelm the glades with nutrients but they would most likely recover quickly just as a result of renewed water flow. I could be wrong too, jmho.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2018)

https://m.soundcloud.com/cabbagepalmradio/episode-15-captains-for-clean

Everyone should listen to this. Explains the Everglades restoration plans, EAA, STAs and army Corp vs SFWMD culpability


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## ShugC (Apr 23, 2016)

Army Corp of engineers Destroying our environment to save 1 person at a time. Tear down the dike. turn sugar fields into natural filters and restore the flow the correct direction. Don't tell me your saving peoples lives when your putting the entire southern part of the state at risk for permanent financial ruin. this isn't just going to affect charter captains and bait shops it will start to affect hotels, restaurants, barbers, lawyers, CPA's medical professionals, fast food workers , etc. we are all connected as tourism dies because our oceans die by our own hand we can kiss our entire economy good bye. It isn't a republican's don't care/democrats don't care its a politicians who spend millions for jobs that pay hundreds of thousands must be corrupt.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2018)

ShugC said:


> Army Corp of engineers Destroying our environment to save 1 person at a time. Tear down the dike. turn sugar fields into natural filters and restore the flow the correct direction. Don't tell me your saving peoples lives when your putting the entire southern part of the state at risk for permanent financial ruin. this isn't just going to affect charter captains and bait shops it will start to affect hotels, restaurants, barbers, lawyers, CPA's medical professionals, fast food workers , etc. we are all connected as tourism dies because our oceans die by our own hand we can kiss our entire economy good bye. It isn't a republican's don't care/democrats don't care its a politicians who spend millions for jobs that pay hundreds of thousands must be corrupt.


This is almost verbatim what I’ve been saying on the other threads!


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## ShugC (Apr 23, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> This is almost verbatim what I’ve been saying on the other threads!


something about great minds thinking alike?


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2018)

ShugC said:


> something about great minds thinking alike?


I reckon!


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2018)

If we can get those businesses, big or small to see what they’re gonna lose... they will make it happen!


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Business support would be critical. The hospitality industry in particular is huge in this state.


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## tcov (Apr 7, 2018)

Boatbrains said:


> If we can get those businesses, big or small to see what they’re gonna lose... they will make it happen!


I think the real estate tycoons, business owners, and similar folks are starting to feel it. A few years ago I don't think they really thought much of it and that it was just an abnormality.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2018)

tcov said:


> I think the real estate tycoons, business owners, and similar folks are starting to feel it. A few years ago I don't think they really thought much of it and that it was just an abnormality.


So let’s just start giving them a lil’ nudge in the right direction. Maybe a little education on why they’re numbers are dropping will open some eyes! It’s easy, and low profile to share photos and such on social media and to send some emails.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2018)

This site has lefties, righties, and bernie’s and if we all start demanding the same thing then I suppose someone will just have to do something!


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## brianBFD (Oct 25, 2017)

I took the suggestion I was given here to purchase and read "The Swamp: The Everglades, Florida, and the Politics of Paradise " by Michael Grunwald. It was a great history lesson as well as eye opening. I had no idea how much of a decline there really was.
.
One take away, was that in addition to how nature has been altered there, it seems like there are just too many humans for the land to support. In most states when there are too many animals for the land to support they have a "Special Season" that culls the no longer productive animals to thin the herd so as to bring things back into balance. Perhaps stopping anymore U-hauls coming across the state line would help too? While being somewhat facetious, even the most optimistic have to admit there is no way the number of people that continue to move there can be sustainable.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2018)

Stopping the incoming traffic would only help, but the “clean” water flow needs restored firstand foremost!


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

With all of our problems it might be helpful to remember that basic conservation and habitat restoration has worked in a lot of places that were in worse shape than we're in... (whoever thought the Hudson river in NY would ever hold fish again)? and that's just one tiny example of what can be done....

Remember how much trouble the old SAVE THE MANATEE club caused? They went after all the media inputs (and did what was pretty much a con job...). 

We actually have real troubles that we need to let everyone know about - and do it in such a fashion that most who normally pay no attention to the outdoors see a real concern that will hit them where it hurts, in their job prospects, their real estate values, the entire big deal tourist industry, etc. 

I'm not saying that we need to raise a ruckus or go anything radical - we just need to make sure the bad news is widely disseminated, talked about and debated everywhere in the state. Push your local news outfits with requests for info about the bad news, convince local TV and radio stations that lots and lots of folks will really pay them some attention if they do info pieces on what is an on-going tragedy that needs attention... Since it's election season right now - every candidate should be asked pointed questions about Okeechobee, the Everglades, and the obvious results of 80 years of bad decisions about water supplies for the state and what they intend to do about the problems... 

Don't kid yourselves that our politicians care that much - a few are outdoor types and already know how bad things are - most just want to get elected... Since real fixes will cost a bunch of money - not may elected types want to tell folks that their taxes will have to go up (that's not a great way to win office -then keep it....). We'll get a lot of promises - it will be up to us to see who actually does things that benefit the areas we care about... Remember that neither political party has a corner on virtue - and that most just want to do whatever will get them elected (just thinking about how much money is spent to get elected to a job that could never pay back a fraction of the money needed to campaign gives me a headache...). In short I don't care what party is in office - I do care about whether they're helping or hurting... 

These are just a few things to consider... Me, I'm going to make myself available to speak publicly about the places that need our help so badly... Don't know how much of effect I'll have but you have to start somewhere...


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Finn Maccumhail said:


> I know the Everglades have historically filtered this water but it's not natural to handle the amount of nutrients in this water. However, what would happen to the Glades if they just flushed Okeechobee south through all that agricultural land and into the Glades?
> 
> Would the Glades effectively filter it? Would the nutrients overwhelm the ecosystem?


Like everything else they would probably die off or mutate into something worse than what we already have.. They used to dump a lot of water South and it started affecting the cat-tails, and saw-grass's along the way... the Indians fought it and now they can no longer dump into the everglades along the way... that's why they have the few STA's that do exactly what you are saying they hold and filter water cleaning the polluntants, but they are over-loaded and we need more.
The science says that if Big Sugar would do that, clean the water, before back pumping it into Lake 'O it would help... but some how the politicians seem to keep voting to approve the free back pumping routes into the Lake.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Tarpon Nole said:


> https://m.soundcloud.com/cabbagepalmradio/episode-15-captains-for-clean
> 
> Everyone should listen to this. Explains the Everglades restoration plans, EAA, STAs and army Corp vs SFWMD culpability


Take the time to listen to this podcast. He talks about the sixty sugar lobbyists at the state capitol. I did not know Florida has closed primaries. That and gerrymandering is a major block to getting a good candidate elected. Rick Scott did nothing for most Floridians and he will not serve the public well in congress. Please do not elect candidates based on abortion and gun control issues.


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## flatzcrazy (Feb 5, 2013)

lemaymiami said:


> With all of our problems it might be helpful to remember that basic conservation and habitat restoration has worked in a lot of places that were in worse shape than we're in... (whoever thought the Hudson river in NY would ever hold fish again)? and that's just one tiny example of what can be done....
> 
> Remember how much trouble the old SAVE THE MANATEE club caused? They went after all the media inputs (and did what was pretty much a con job...).
> 
> ...


Well said Capt.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2018)

Another fish kill!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Guys, we are talking about wiping out an entire eco system in SW Florida, from Siesta Key on the south side of Sarasota, south to the north side Naples (reports coming in). Off shore guys reporting snapper and grouper kills out to 30 miles off of Sanibel.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Siesta Key, the Red Tide, is farther North than the Lake 'O polluted water discharges. 
Unfortunately the Red Tide is a bad one this year, that drifts South-wards and when it Mixes with the Lake 'O discharge's may have made things much worse this year than others to points South.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

sjrobin said:


> The Corp of Engineers has no choice but to release water east and west to prevent Big O levee damage and flooding south. Wishing no harm to the people south of Big O but the worst case event to trigger action would be a catastrophic collapse of the levee. The problem is way beyond the state of Florida to solve. Federal action is required and that will take time and votes as it should.


It could have be done (draining Lake O levels), sloooowly over a long period of time, instead of this huge dumping of water. The slow method wouldn't have had such a dramatic effect, as huge volume dumping.

Our house growing up on the Caloosahatchee river was 50ft from the water and I was on that river almost daily. We've been thru big storms and hurricanes and that dike never over flowed. Also back then, even if they had to open up the locks to lower water levels, I've never seen the effects as you see now. I'm convinced that the issues aside from Big Sugar, is the Big Phosphate holding ponds run-offs!


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

oof... @Backwater, I feel like I can smell those pictures


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

krash said:


> Siesta Key, the Red Tide, is farther North than the Lake 'O polluted water discharges.
> Unfortunately the Red Tide is a bad one this year, that drifts South-wards and when it Mixes with the Lake 'O discharge's may have made things much worse this year than others to points South.


The tides will also carry it northwards. Imagine a mushroom cloud from an atomic blast going up in the air. Now take that same scenario and lay it down flat. The Caloosatchee is the main drainage for Lake O. So when these high volume discharges are going, it blast out like making your garden hose into a jet stream. It then gets split around Pine Island and Sanibel and half of it goes south and pushes way out into the Gulf in a mushroom cloud and the other side pushes way into Charlotte Harbor and out Boca Grande Pass into the Gulf there, as well as going north up the inter coastal waterways, up past Placida, Englewood and further north, including all the passes in between. Then the tides act like a washing machine pushing it in and out and pushing into every crack and crevices and causing to to push out in all directions further, as it continually gets fed more polluted fresh water. Imagine dumping a bottle of red dye at the mouth of a stream that dumps into a lake and watching the stream pushing the dye out into the water and it looking like a flower bloom in action. Only with the tides, the angulation of the tidal action will push it out and away from "ground zero" further and further, as the tide goes out to sea and then back in again.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

bryson said:


> oof... @Backwater, I feel like I can smell those pictures


It's a horrible smell and makes you want to gag, smelling it and seeing all those good fish going to waste because people are causing the problem.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2018)

Guys, listen to the podcast I posted earlier. It explains a lot of these things you are discussing. 

The army corps is doing its job, preventing the dike from breaching. They are doing repairs and have to keep it at a lower level than normal 

The issue is that they are using lake O as both a reservoir and for drainage. In the dry season, they aren't releasing water so sugar can use to water the fields. In the wet season they are having to drain into an already high lake because of keeping it as high as possible in the dry season 

Also, SFWMD is in charge of those decisions. SFWMD gets their orders from a board that is appointed, not elected. Elect someone who will put scientists and engineers on SFWMD board, not developers and people they are told to appoint after getting sugar money


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## tcov (Apr 7, 2018)

Tarpon Nole said:


> Guys, listen to the podcast I posted earlier. It explains a lot of these things you are discussing.
> 
> The army corps is doing its job, preventing the dike from breaching. They are doing repairs and have to keep it at a lower level than normal
> 
> ...


I agree, listened to it last night. It's well worth your time to check it out.


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## CabbagePalmRadio (Aug 2, 2018)

Thank you Tarpon Nole!
We had the privilege of sitting down with Capt. Chris Wittman co-founder of Captains For Clean Water, and a lot of serious knowledge was dropped. For those who aren't aware of some of the 'behind the scenes' actions taking place, tune in to get up to speed! The Primaries are around the corner. I highly recommend researching the canidates who aren't Rep or Dem, but for WATER!

https://m.soundcloud.com/cabbagepalmradio/episode-15-captains-for-clean


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Tarpon N... I listen'd with great interest to the pod-cast.. and you are correct its a good listen and does explain a lot, but lengthy. Thx. for hosting and posting.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Just a crazy idea because Florida has such a large Nasa footprint. How about this? Nasa builds a huge mirror the size of Florida and launches it into orbit above the state....not to prevent global warming( because no such thing is taking place) but rather to allow everyone to see the reflection of greed, selfishness, lack lack of responsibility and total disregard for future generations reflecting back at themselves. Florida is a ponzi scheme at the end of its run. A tiny number of people will win and everyone else is going to lose. It is probably too late to start voting for people who are not part of the game but in November you can try and save something....


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)




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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Ben said:


> View attachment 35896


Yep...might be time to stop banning the term "climate change" and start banning the words "biologically dead",


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Backwater said:


> Guys, we are talking about wiping out an entire eco system in SW Florida, from Siesta Key on the south side of Sarasota, south to the north side Naples (reports coming in). Off shore guys reporting snapper and grouper kills out to 30 miles off of Sanibel.


I see a few red drum in the pics. When the very hardy red drum die, people need to act and vote for change.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

Isn't there an enviroment friendly judge somewhere who can put an injunction in place to stop the corps from doing this?


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

[QUOTE="trekker said:


> Isn't there an enviroment friendly judge somewhere who can put an injunction in place to stop the corps from doing this?


sorry treckker....this is a Florida thing always has been. There is no judge or US congress going to approve anything without the support of the Florida Governor(zero). The people of Florida are responsible for the [email protected] they are in today. Their children and grandchildren are suffering multi-generational setbacks they will never recover from. ...stop blaming the Corp...they are not the problem. Florida voters are the problem. Stop voting for people who do not value you .


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Trekker, if you knew just how badly all of these issues have been tangled up in court -for forty years.... looking for a judge is the last thing to do... Essentially there are always at least a half dozen different outfits at every court case about the Everglades and whenever one of them doesn't like what some judge rules (in either state or mostly federal court...) they have their lawyers appeal and you add another three to five years to the arguing.... 

Here's a thread from another site that's well worth reading - and it only brings us up to about 17 years ago.... Crack a cold one and read through it - you won't know whether to laugh or cry....

You can either laugh or cry about this.

https://www.floridabar.org/news/tfb-journal/?durl=/DIVCOM/JN/JNJournal01.nsf/Author/D0FE7CE69AFA102885256ADB005D635E

It was written 17 years ago...………………………………….

At least we have some bridges up on the Tamiami Trail and some STAs doing good work.

Florida politicians and PACs have done significant work to block clean water.

Status Quo 

Here's what I'd tell my son about where we're at... "if you threaten a man's livelihood - he'll fight you till the sun goes down - and after dark he'll be thinking of ways that you won't see him coming...."

Note: you'll have to copy the address and post it up on your internet browser to make it work...


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Recently reading, which I don't do much of my attention span is not long... but this is a letter posted and sent to the parties involved in the "just send it south" column. Its a lengthy but good read from the Miccosukee Tribe trying to protect their interest, tribal land's between the big Lake 'O and Miami (US41).

Miccosukee Tribe of Indians, "lovetheeverglades.org" letter.


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## RobA (Aug 21, 2015)

krash said:


> Recently reading, which I don't do much of my attention span is not long... but this is a letter posted and sent to the parties involved in the "just send it south" column. Its a lengthy but good read from the Miccosukee Tribe trying to protect their interest, tribal land's between the big Lake 'O and Miami (US41).
> 
> Miccosukee Tribe of Indians, "lovetheeverglades.org" letter.


Thanks for posting that. I was surprised to see the tribe being against the reservoir. Shows how difficult figuring this crap out is.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

trekker said:


> Isn't there an enviroment friendly judge somewhere who can put an injunction in place to stop the corps from doing this?


I'm sure it takes a large force of the right people to make that happen. I wish some big legal law firm would get involved to do something like petitioning a Judge or the courts to make something like that happen. Maybe microskiff member RobA can shed a little more light on that subject.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

sjrobin said:


> I see a few red drum in the pics. When the very hardy red drum die, people need to act and vote for change.


We were tooling down the beach looking for snook and you can see the red tide in pockets going down the beach. There was a small school of slot reds that was on the beach trying to dodge the red tide clouds (smart of them to do) out on the beach side on one of the islands we were scouting. The beachwater was hot and not a place you would normally find a red in. My buddy and I thought it was strange they were out there on the beach side, which was uncommon for them to do, but realized that they were pushed out from the inside back country side of the islands since the RT is saturated those waters. Again, smart for those reds to see it coming and go search for clean water, which the incoming tide was bringing it in that morning. So we watch them swim into a save clear pocket of water up against the beach line, but they got surrounded by the RT and it started to enclose on them. After a couple of minutes, the RT saturated the clear spot and all those fish (about 9 of them) rolled up on their bellies after kicking around for about a minute, trying to survive. It was truly a sad moment to see.


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## Derek Radtke (Feb 24, 2018)

Please excuse my ignorance on this subject, I am a Texan but this topic is a concern of mine because I enjoy taking trips to Florida every few years to fish. Please correct me if I am wrong but I’m trying to figure out nearly 40 years of decisions and mistakes that have caused this problem. Lake O’s natural drainage is south towards the Everglades. The Everglades filters this water and eventually the water ends up in South Florida/Gulf of Mexico. That is the “natural” way, so to speak. Over time the natural drainage was diverted to the west and to the east? This is where it gets confusing to me. It was diverted for real estate purposes? Or was it diverted to allow huge sugar farms to use the land south of Lake O as harvesting land? The core of engineers is told by the state when to release water to lower the lake level. Upon release the water travels through sugar fields which are treated with chemicals to aid crops I am
Assuming. The Everglades can’t filter the chemicals so this water is tainted once it reaches the saltwater, which causes they huge algae blooms which kills the fish.


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## RobA (Aug 21, 2015)

Backwater said:


> I'm sure it takes a large force of the right people to make that happen. I wish some big legal law firm would get involved to do something like petitioning a Judge or the courts to make something like that happen. Maybe microskiff member RobA can shed a little more light on that subject.


I'm a lawyer but I don't know Jack about the environmental laws in play here. I don't think you could ever get a judge to stop the releases since they are done for safety reasons. That's why actually building the reservoir and pushing to keep the lake at a lower level during the dry season are important. If the dike isn't in danger, it is harder for them to force the water on us.


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## CabbagePalmRadio (Aug 2, 2018)

Derek Radtke said:


> Please excuse my ignorance on this subject, I am a Texan but this topic is a concern of mine because I enjoy taking trips to Florida every few years to fish. Please correct me if I am wrong but I’m trying to figure out nearly 40 years of decisions and mistakes that have caused this problem. Lake O’s natural drainage is south towards the Everglades. The Everglades filters this water and eventually the water ends up in South Florida/Gulf of Mexico. That is the “natural” way, so to speak. Over time the natural drainage was diverted to the west and to the east? This is where it gets confusing to me. It was diverted for real estate purposes? Or was it diverted to allow huge sugar farms to use the land south of Lake O as harvesting land? The core of engineers is told by the state when to release water to lower the lake level. Upon release the water travels through sugar fields which are treated with chemicals to aid crops I am
> Assuming. The Everglades can’t filter the chemicals so this water is tainted once it reaches the saltwater, which causes they huge algae blooms which kills the fish.


All good questions and good on you to ask them! We sat down with Capt. Chris Wittman, co-founder of Captains For Clean Water, who's been the tip of the spear for a couple years now. It's Episode 15 and you can find us on iTunes or SoundCloud. A lot of what you're asking will be answered there. Cheers!


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

RobA, what is your practice? Maybe you could help Somalipirate and I stay out of too much trouble when we revolt against this machine that is not trying to solve the problem??? Or maybe you could write up a real petition that we can all get signatures on demanding action to be taken! Maybe we could form microskiffers non partisan clean water alliance and start educating the corperate world that stands to lose money money money if something isn’t done soon as well as the small fry that will also lose revenue if that environment fails?


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

This has been recorded from 1800's almost every year. While I'm sure the dump from the o doesn't help nor does fertilizer, this is naturally occurring. I'm sure we can make improvements to stop fueling the bloom but we should understand this will always happen.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> RobA, what is your practice? Maybe you could help Somalipirate and I stay out of too much trouble when we revolt against this machine that is not trying to solve the problem??? Or maybe you could write up a real petition that we can all get signatures on demanding action to be taken! Maybe we could form microskiffers non partisan clean water alliance and start educating the corperate world that stands to lose money money money if something isn’t done soon as well as the small fry that will also lose revenue if that environment fails?


Unfortunately, I've had both _Miranda_ and _Garrity_ read to me before.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

makin moves said:


> This has been recorded from 1800's almost every year. While I'm sure the dump from the o doesn't help nor does fertilizer, this is naturally occurring. I'm sure we can make improvements to stop fueling the bloom but we should understand this will always happen.


While I fully agree that the algae bloom is natural, I feel that fertizing it is making it a much much bigger issue. Also, the diversion of dark polluted water is having a negative impact on the reefs and sea grass beds.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

SomaliPirate said:


> Unfortunately, I've had both _Miranda_ and _Garrity_ read to me before.


An attorney on standby never hurts lol!


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

Not to get off topic or political but what is CCA doing or saying about this? I heard them being bashed in the past but never thought much if it. For a "what the hell, it's a good cause and I might win something to boot" I joined this year to get in the Star tournament. Was on a roll for the first few days but then the releases began and I haven't fished much since. I haven't heard anything or seen anything since this started and was wondering if I am looking in the wrong place or if they aren't what they advertise?


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## RobA (Aug 21, 2015)

Boatbrains said:


> RobA, what is your practice? Maybe you could help Somalipirate and I stay out of too much trouble when we revolt against this machine that is not trying to solve the problem??? Or maybe you could write up a real petition that we can all get signatures on demanding action to be taken! Maybe we could form microskiffers non partisan clean water alliance and start educating the corperate world that stands to lose money money money if something isn’t done soon as well as the small fry that will also lose revenue if that environment fails?


I'm not the keep-you-out-of-jail type of lawyer  Captains for Clean Water is supposedly non-partisan and they seem to be doing a pretty good job of presenting a business-oriented argument. Reading up on this stuff lately has been depressing. The reservoir plan, if there are no hiccups, probably won't be done for nearly a decade. It seems like its in the federal government's hands now. 

It seems to me that the only hope for any short term relief besides an extended dry spell is the idea to lower the water levels in Okeechobee. Apparently its something they are looking at now: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/article215450465.html

It sucks, but it seems like the only time there is any movement on this stuff is when we get the bad algae and the fish kills.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

makin moves said:


> This has been recorded from 1800's almost every year. While I'm sure the dump from the o doesn't help nor does fertilizer, this is naturally occurring. I'm sure we can make improvements to stop fueling the bloom but we should understand this will always happen.


Not really. The Caloosahatchee widening project wasn't even started until the late 1920's and the Lake O dike and lock system didn't start until the mid 1930's and finished up in the early 1960's.

Sure red tide has always been around as an algee that normally bloomed in certain areas, but not every year. It was naturally occuring when the summer heated saltwater algae met up with freshwater flows bring naturally occurring organic material from upstream in all of the rivers, due to the summer rains. Once those natural organics hit the algae, it would naturally fertilizes it and causes it to bloom. But the blooms were never this bad. Today, man made fertilizers and mined phosphates accelerate that process and is causing it to bloom way beyond what has ever happened in the pass. At this rate, it will completely wipe out the fishery in a few years. Believe me, I've been on that water for over 45yrs and it never was this bad. Lately, each time it progressively gets worse. I've even talked to the old timers about it and they also agree it's way worse than it's ever been.


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

Backwater said:


> Not really. The Caloosahatchee widening project wasn't even started until the late 1920's and the Lake O dike and lock system didn't start until the mid 1930's and finished up in the early 1960's.
> 
> Sure red tide has always been around as an algee that normally bloomed in certain areas, but not every year. It was naturally occuring when the summer heated saltwater algae met up with freshwater flows bring naturally occurring organic material from upstream in all of the rivers, due to the summer rains. Once those natural organics hit the algae, it would naturally fertilizes it and causes it to bloom. But the blooms were never this bad. Today, man made fertilizers and mined phosphates accelerate that process and is causing it to bloom way beyond what has ever happened in the pass. At this rate, it will completely wipe out the fishery in a few years. Believe me, I've been on that water for over 45yrs and it never was this bad. Lately, each time it progressively gets worse. I've even talked to the old timers about it and they also agree it's way worse than it's ever been.


You disagreed with what I said then agreed with what I said lol. Point being action needs to be taken but it will not end red tide!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

makin moves said:


> You disagreed with what I said the agreed with what I said lol. Point being action needs to be taken but it will not end red tide!


I mentioned.... "Not really" like you mentioned _"it's been going on like this since the 1800's."_ Then I said Yes, RT has, but in a nut shell I said, but not to this extent. Yes it's naturally occurring, but mankind (Gov't and industry) has accelerated the process and it's getting worse lately. Lake draining before hurricane season has been getting worse lately and the results of IRMA, coupled with the reports that this will be an active hurricane season again this year, has caused them to increase the release volumes and further lower the lake levels. This is adding to the problem.


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

Ya I ment redtide being recorded. Were on the same team!


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## firecat1981 (Nov 27, 2007)

Don't want to get into the debate at all, but just posting for info purposes.

I'm down in Marco Island, we haven't been here in about 6 years, and man has it changed. The water is green with algae, maybe 1ft viability. No slime or respiratory issues though. However, the grass is mostly gone, I went to some grass flats I had marked before, nothings there. We still managed to catch fish, but it's not as pretty and scenic as it used to be, even at the beach.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

firecat1981 said:


> Don't want to get into the debate at all, but just posting for info purposes.
> 
> I'm down in Marco Island, we haven't been here in about 6 years, and man has it changed. The water is green with algae, maybe 1ft viability. No slime or respiratory issues though. However, the grass is mostly gone, I went to some grass flats I had marked before, nothings there. We still managed to catch fish, but it's not as pretty and scenic as it used to be, even at the beach.


That is due to the Everglades water problem that Capt. LeMay is sounding off about (read his replies), as well as the "Capts for Clean Water" and all of the other rants about water flow through the Glades.


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## Derek Radtke (Feb 24, 2018)

This is a really sad situation to see as an outsider, I can only imagine what it’s like as a Florida native. It really sucks to see natural wonder be destroyed by human ignorance and the desire for money. I’ve donated my money to Captains for Clean waters hell I even wear a hat. Most people I come across at my local marina (South Texas) have no idea what’s happening and ask me what the Captain for Clean Waters is. I take time to explain a little. Then I Let them know, what’s happening in Florida can easily happen here in Texas. This issue needs to be brought to a national level.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

Just saw the CFCW segment on Anderson Cooper. At least it is getting national attention now


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

Manatees are dyin, 1 a day is being rescued right now! It might just get the attention it needs now lol! People love those dang manatee!


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

Boatbrains said:


> Manatees are dyin, 1 a day is being rescued right now! It might just get the attention it needs now lol! People love those dang manatee!


Nature's speed bumps here to save the day !


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## NativeBone (Aug 16, 2017)




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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

I’m sick of Bill Nelson’s smug bullshit. How much sugar money has he taken? How much sugar money was funneled through untraceable PACs to him? Why didn’t he support the sugar policy modernization act?


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

They need to start growing more sugar beets out West here again. Used to be the main cash crop in Colorado hundred yrs ago. Problem is no water period out here.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

suspect he wants to get re-elected....


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Fishshoot said:


> They need to start growing more sugar beets out West here again. Used to be the main cash crop in Colorado hundred yrs ago. Problem is no water period out here.


If congress ended the sugar subsidies in the farm act this problem would be made vastly easier to solve. The world is awash in sugar and it is cheap. Growing sugar in America is expensive and none of it would be salable on world markets without the government welfare farmers receive to produce it. Maybe China will do Florida a favor in their next round of tariffs and start taxing imported sugar. It would be very interesting to know what portion of big sugars profits are the result of us paying them to destroy our fisheries.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

What a joke.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

camp said:


> If congress ended the sugar subsidies in the farm act this problem would be made vastly easier to solve. The world is awash in sugar and it is cheap. Growing sugar in America is expensive and none of it would be salable on world markets without the government welfare farmers receive to produce it. Maybe China will do Florida a favor in their next round of tariffs and start taxing imported sugar. It would be very interesting to know what portio





camp said:


> If congress ended the sugar subsidies in the farm act this problem would be made vastly easier to solve. The world is awash in sugar and it is cheap. Growing sugar in America is expensive and none of it would be salable on world markets without the government welfare farmers receive to produce it. Maybe China will do Florida a favor in their next round of tariffs and start taxing imported sugar. It would be very interesting to know what portion of big sugars profits are the result of us paying them to destroy our fisheries.


So I looked it up. According to the American Enterprise institute the total annual sugar subsidy is $4 billion dollars. It is divided between 4500 growers with an average payout of $700,000. "one Florida family is estimated to benefit to the tune of between $150 million and $200 million a year"


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2018)

I’m gonna play devils advocate on the subsidies. The farmers do need them to keep farming! As a hobby farmer I can tell you that while many preach the buy local phrase, very very few practice it! Tractors and equipment needed to produce cheap food come with a huge price tag!!! In order for me to break even I have to get $6 lb hanging weight for my pork shares, $5 dozen for my eggs, ect... I end up feeding eggs to pigs and giving pork away because those buy local folks go to walmart and buy eggs for .99 dozen and pork $2lb! If we want cheap food the subsidies will have to continue, if you want the subsidies to end then buy local every chance you get and support you small time local farmer that don’t get the subsidies. Just my two pennies.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> I’m gonna play devils advocate on the subsidies. The farmers do need them to keep farming! As a hobby farmer I can tell you that while many preach the buy local phrase, very very few practice it! Tractors and equipment needed to produce cheap food come with a huge price tag!!! In order for me to break even I have to get $6 lb hanging weight for my pork shares, $5 dozen for my eggs, ect... I end up feeding eggs to pigs and giving pork away because those buy local folks go to walmart and buy eggs for .99 dozen and pork $2lb! If we want cheap food the subsidies will have to continue, if you want the subsidies to end then buy local every chance you get and support you small time local farmer that don’t get the subsidies. Just my two pennies.


I wasn't trying t


Boatbrains said:


> I’m gonna play devils advocate on the subsidies. The farmers do need them to keep farming! As a hobby farmer I can tell you that while many preach the buy local phrase, very very few practice it! Tractors and equipment needed to produce cheap food come with a huge price tag!!! In order for me to break even I have to get $6 lb hanging weight for my pork shares, $5 dozen for my eggs, ect... I end up feeding eggs to pigs and giving pork away because those buy local folks go to walmart and buy eggs for .99 dozen and pork $2lb! If we want cheap food the subsidies will have to continue, if you want the subsidies to end then buy local every chance you get and support you small time local farmer that don’t get the subsidies. Just my two pennies.


Always appreciate the devils advocate position and when possible always shop local. The subsidies in the sugar industry are different and so big and so targeted to a tiny but powerful cartel(can't find a better word) that it is impossible to deny their manipulation of the political landscape. I defy anyone to make the argument that cheap sugar is a national security interest. Anyway the garbage water going into lake O is already filthy before it gets to the lake so the sugar lands are really where the best solution lies rather than the source of the worst of the contaminants. As far as those excess eggs a friend of mine has found his passion making creme brulee....he has also recently put on about 20 pounds.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

Until people wise up and demand an end to business people bankrolling the slime politicians, nothing will change. It's the clearest damn thing in the world.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

camp said:


> If congress ended the sugar subsidies in the farm act this problem would be made vastly easier to solve. The world is awash in sugar and it is cheap. Growing sugar in America is expensive and none of it would be salable on world
> 
> 
> 
> markets without the government welfare farmers receive to produce it. Maybe China will do Florida a favor in their next round of tariffs and start taxing imported sugar. It would be very interesting to know what portion of big sugars profits are the result of us paying them to destroy our fisheries.


Stop the sugar subsidies first, then buy and restore sawgrass land south of the lake. This has to happen soon to allow some coastal ecosystem recovery. Still a long term solution with a lot of short term impact to farmers and people living south of the lake. In some ways comparable to Harvey flooding homes in Texas and Federal $$$ (your $$$) being spent to rebuild homes flooded multiple times. Enough is enough.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Boatbrains said:


> I’m gonna play devils advocate on the subsidies. The farmers do need them to keep farming! As a hobby farmer I can tell you that while many preach the buy local phrase, very very few practice it! Tractors and equipment needed to produce cheap food come with a huge price tag!!! In order for me to break even I have to get $6 lb hanging weight for my pork shares, $5 dozen for my eggs, ect... I end up feeding eggs to pigs and giving pork away because those buy local folks go to walmart and buy eggs for .99 dozen and pork $2lb! If we want cheap food the subsidies will have to continue, if you want the subsidies to end then buy local every chance you get and support you small time local farmer that don’t get the subsidies. Just my two pennies.


Just the sugar subsidies for now. Other crop subsidies have been gradually reduced over time.


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Boatbrains said:


> I’m gonna play devils advocate on the subsidies. The farmers do need them to keep farming! As a hobby farmer I can tell you that while many preach the buy local phrase, very very few practice it! Tractors and equipment needed to produce cheap food come with a huge price tag!!! In order for me to break even I have to get $6 lb hanging weight for my pork shares, $5 dozen for my eggs, ect... I end up feeding eggs to pigs and giving pork away because those buy local folks go to walmart and buy eggs for .99 dozen and pork $2lb! If we want cheap food the subsidies will have to continue, if you want the subsidies to end then buy local every chance you get and support you small time local farmer that don’t get the subsidies. Just my two pennies.


Feeding eggs to your pigs for $0 profit because no one will pay $5/dozen means you need to lower your prices. How on earth are you breaking even at $5/dozen? Are you feeding them Kobe beef and chanterelles?

Also, DOC estimates that for every sugar processing job saved through subsidies, 3 manufacturing jobs are lost. 

These subsidies have created a monster that is now so rich and politically involved that the taxpayer and consumers are stuck footing the bill and paying to fix it while a handful get rich. 

Companies that get government bailouts shouldn’t be able lobby politically with taxpayer dollars.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2018)

mosquitolaGOON said:


> Feeding eggs to your pigs for $0 profit because no one will pay $5/dozen means you need to lower your prices. How on earth are you breaking even at $5/dozen? Are you feeding them Kobe beef and chanterelles?
> 
> Also, DOC estimates that for every sugar processing job saved through subsidies, 3 manufacturing jobs are lost.
> 
> ...


When you consider in cost of housing, bedding/nesting material, feed, ect... it adds up! Point is people just won’t buy local as much as they preach it! They will pay that $5 for organic free range eggs at the grocer but won’t go to the guy around the corner, they think that you should just give them the eggs. The eggs are more valuble to me as pig feed that selling at a loss so they go to the pigs! I agree with your bailout/lobby statement though.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2018)

I also feel that so called free trade and union greed has lost way way more jobs. I am in no way bashing the unions here but there are some that just plain got greedy!


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## msmith719 (Oct 9, 2012)

I need to put my 2 cents into this discussion. First, I'm 74 years old and was born and raised in S. FL and the Keys as were my father and grandfather. The red tide problem has been here since Biblical times and is not going away any time soon. I believe it's exacerbated by the Lake O. runoff, but one of the issues that has killed our side is that our lawyers go to court when we have a red tide incursion and we get killed in court when the opposing lawyers argue that red tide is not caused by runoff, it's a naturally ocurring phenomenon, and they're right. I can remember going over to Naples and Ft. Myers back in the late 40s and early 50s, pre-sugar and pre-runoff, when you couldn't go on the beaches because of breathing problems from red tide, not to mention the dead fish. We've also occasionally had minor red tide ocurrences on the East Coast, but nothing like the Gulf. I personally don't believe the red tide frequency is any worse now than back then but it appears to be more serious each time possibly because of the runoff accelerating the algae growth. We need to get Big Sugar and other large production farming out of the Glades NOW! Why are they here? Before big-time sugar cultivation ever started in FL we got all our sugar from Cuba and Central America. What happened? One word: Castro! But, even now we could buy all our sugar from Caribbean sources far cheaper than subsidizing a few displaced Cuban families who live in unbelievable wealth in Palm Beach at our expense. As someone mentioned above in this thread, it's wholly our fault. We keep electing scumbag politicians who are only there for the money in politics. It's easy to become a millionaire in the U.S. Just get elected to Congress or the state legislature. Quit complaining about the Army Corps of Engineers; they only do what Congess tells them to do and only when Congress appropriates money for the project. The state can buy land, and should, but we can't afford to buy the land plus funding of projects like the Lake O. dikes and building bridges on Alligator Alley. The big money in our state, like the hospitality industry and other tourism dependent business, needs to understand the consequences of continuing to do almost nothing; they need to be more involved. The southern half of FL is dying at a rapid rate. Won't be long until you'll be telling your grandkids what it was like to actually catch those fish that they see on National Geographic. VOTE! for politicians who have a dog in the fight, will support ending sugar subsidies, and then hold their feet to the fire or else hang them! Thanks.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

*Update!!!*

Redtide moving northward. This is the scene from Bradenton Beach to Anna Maria Island, just south of the mouth of Tampa Bay.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2022178074479083


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

My sister posed this up on facebook.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2018)

Backwater said:


> My sister posed this up on facebook.


While I can’t say where my info is from, 1 manatee a day is being rescued right now! Not sure how many are being pulled DOA! Is that the st pete path lab?


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2018)

Very very sad situation we are in! Natural or not, no one can argue the man is making this situation much worse with our polluting!


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

And still the qualifier at the end of every article I read: "red tide is naturally occurring...nothing that can be done...scientists tried back in the 50's and only made it worse..etc." 

I do believe they publishers are all trying to stay on the government's good side... is there one?


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## NativeBone (Aug 16, 2017)

man, it breaks my heart, to see those pics!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

msmith719 said:


> I need to put my 2 cents into this discussion. First, I'm 74 years old and was born and raised in S. FL and the Keys as were my father and grandfather. The red tide problem has been here since Biblical times and is not going away any time soon. I believe it's exacerbated by the Lake O. runoff, but one of the issues that has killed our side is that our lawyers go to court when we have a red tide incursion and we get killed in court when the opposing lawyers argue that red tide is not caused by runoff, it's a naturally ocurring phenomenon, and they're right. I can remember going over to Naples and Ft. Myers back in the late 40s and early 50s, pre-sugar and pre-runoff, when you couldn't go on the beaches because of breathing problems from red tide, not to mention the dead fish. We've also occasionally had minor red tide ocurrences on the East Coast, but nothing like the Gulf. I personally don't believe the red tide frequency is any worse now than back then but it appears to be more serious each time possibly because of the runoff accelerating the algae growth. We need to get Big Sugar and other large production farming out of the Glades NOW! Why are they here? Before big-time sugar cultivation ever started in FL we got all our sugar from Cuba and Central America. What happened? One word: Castro! But, even now we could buy all our sugar from Caribbean sources far cheaper than subsidizing a few displaced Cuban families who live in unbelievable wealth in Palm Beach at our expense. As someone mentioned above in this thread, it's wholly our fault. We keep electing scumbag politicians who are only there for the money in politics. It's easy to become a millionaire in the U.S. Just get elected to Congress or the state legislature. Quit complaining about the Army Corps of Engineers; they only do what Congess tells them to do and only when Congress appropriates money for the project. The state can buy land, and should, but we can't afford to buy the land plus funding of projects like the Lake O. dikes and building bridges on Alligator Alley. The big money in our state, like the hospitality industry and other tourism dependent business, needs to understand the consequences of continuing to do almost nothing; they need to be more involved. The southern half of FL is dying at a rapid rate. Won't be long until you'll be telling your grandkids what it was like to actually catch those fish that they see on National Geographic. VOTE! for politicians who have a dog in the fight, will support ending sugar subsidies, and then hold their feet to the fire or else hang them! Thanks.


With all due respect, Big sugar is only part of the problem. Big phosphate is what accelerates fertilizers and phosphates and the toxic chemicals to extract the such out of the rock. Then it makes it's way into our water system where it is a leading cause of the problem. You can buy up all that cheap swamp land you want and it will only take care of a small part of the problem (the flow of water thru the Glades. Remember, the Lake O dike and the channeling of the water overflow from Lake O needs to be re-estabilish, south of the Big Sugar property. But the quality of the water is still a problem and that is what is creating such extremes in the algea blooms and red tides.

I'm only 54 and grew up on the water in SW FL. But I have never see it as bad as it has been esclading to in recent years. I'm also 3rd Gen Florida and my father and grandfather are from S. Florida (then relocated to SW FL.) They've also told me about the red tide in the past, but compares to what we've been seeing recently, it's getting worse.


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## flatzcrazy (Feb 5, 2013)

Backwater said:


> *Update!!!*
> 
> Redtide moving northward. This is the scene from Bradenton Beach to Anna Maria Island, just south of the mouth of Tampa Bay.
> 
> ...


The pics were taken 2 hours ago at the new coquina ramp on Bradenton Beach. Lots of gags, some breeder snook, breeder trout, flounder, mullet hogfish, assorted bait fish lot of small snook & trout. This is bad!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

flatzcrazy said:


> The pics were taken 2 hours ago at the new coquina ramp on Bradenton Beach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Horrible for sure. You live around there?


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## flatzcrazy (Feb 5, 2013)

Backwater said:


> Horrible for sure. You live around there?


No, I live in the Terra Ciea area, was driving by the ramp while working & stopped to check things out. This will be on the news tonight as there were numerous tv crews around documenting the situation.


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## DBStoots (Jul 9, 2011)

That makes my blood boil.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Man, if a person swims with a manatee and someone calls FWc they make national news.. but when the red-tide algaee bloom, Lake 'O discharge, Super Bloom (or what ever scientifically is proven to cause the deaths) it seems to just get brushed under the rugs.... WTF is wrong with this picture.


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## Shadowcast16 (Mar 5, 2017)

camp said:


> So I looked it up. According to the American Enterprise institute the total annual sugar subsidy is $4 billion dollars. It is divided between 4500 growers with an average payout of $700,000. "one Florida family is estimated to benefit to the tune of between $150 million and $200 million a year"


This makes me sick to my stomach! This has to stop! You know the big producers that bribe the government are the ones getting all the payouts. As Boatbrains stated the little guy doesn't stand a chance and is not able to compete. Then all the welfare recipients head to Walmart to continue the cycle. Florida is SCREWED! I have been here for 43 years and I am ready to move to the Bahamas. In another 20 years this will be the case of all 50 States. This sucks!!!


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## Str8-Six (Jul 6, 2015)

Wow, this is sad. 

I did listen to the SoundCloud episode with Capt Chris and was definitely very informative. Sounds like things are at least moving in the right direction but it will be years before we see any improvement. What can everyone do to help, specifics? 
Who do you vote for during elections, names?
Update on Florida Bay since they started directing a little of the water south?


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

You guys need to ck out the book “ and the waters turned to blood “ by rodney barker I got some sort of phisteria ,Associated with red tide ,25 years ago Was on antibiotics for almost 2 years bad stuff nothing to play around with y all be careful around that stuff. Rinse my hands with alcohol just about every time I put them in the water these days. I got bottles of the stuff stashed everywhere We don’t have much of a tide where I am in nc ( neuse river,mostly a wind tide ) lack of water flow makes it worse i think Stay safe


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Florida Sportsman mag/rag has an article in the Aug. 2018 issue, 2 part story to be continued next month, that kind of talks about the state of Florida Bay and relates to the water woe's...


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Florida is way too overpopulated we need a no vacancy sign at the line.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

I always wondered how the F


Backcountry 16 said:


> Florida is way too overpopulated we need a no vacancy sign at the line.


We are well above capacity now. What drives me crazy is all of the development east of 75 now. Driving down Corkscrew and Immokalee road is depressing


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

It was overpopulated when I left in 91. Economy is based on development so good luck slowing that down without a giant plague or something!


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

One of these days I'm gonna say screw it and move to Wyoming.


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

Wyoming is great, trout, carp and underated upland bird hunting(all the glory goes to nebraska and the dakotas) and of course big game hunting. Windy as can be up there, work doesn't usually pay as much as other places but also takes much less to live a decent life.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Fishshoot said:


> Wyoming is great, trout, carp and underated upland bird hunting(all the glory goes to nebraska and the dakotas) and of course big game hunting. Windy as can be up there, work doesn't usually pay as much as other places but also takes much less to live a decent life.


My wife got offered a job in Jackson making a ton of money but she's still under contract here for another two years. Maybe then. I'd love to be semi-retired, living on the wife's salary and catching cutthroats and shooting antelope all day.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

Fishshoot said:


> It was overpopulated when I left in 91. Economy is based on development so good luck slowing that down without a giant plague or something!


Yep- Last time through much of S. Florida appeared to be a cross between a bunch of refugee camps and balkanized gated safe zones. Sad fn state of affairs. Old Florida leadership prior to the Uni party Republicucks and Democrazies knew this: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/19...ratorium-comprehensive-plan-road-improvements
Its why they passed the 1985 state growth management law. Sadly both sides succumbed to money. And here you are.

VERY Curious if the "Clean Water" folk have investigated whether or not any of the large land owners south of Lake O are heir-less. Some of the land set aside back in the day in various states was done on the cheap or free just by tagging it with the family's name, ranch, farm name etc. Might be worth pursuing.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

EdK13 said:


> Yep- Last time through much of S. Florida appeared to be a cross between a bunch of refugee camps and balkanized gated safe zones. Sad fn state of affairs. Old Florida leadership prior to the Uni party Republicucks and Democrazies knew this: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/19...ratorium-comprehensive-plan-road-improvements
> Its why they passed the 1985 state growth management law. Sadly both sides succumbed to money. And here you are.
> 
> VERY Curious if the "Clean Water" folk have investigated whether or not any of the large land owners south of Lake O are heir-less. Some of the land set aside back in the day in various states was done on the cheap or free just by tagging it with the family's name, ranch, farm name etc. Might be worth pursuing.


Ed and I saw refugees riding wheelies on dirt bikes through red lights and taunting/harassing motorists in two towns a hundred miles apart on the same day. It looked like a damn zoo on the sidewalk. What the hell is going on down there? It will all come to a head soon.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Ed and I saw refugees riding wheelies on dirt bikes through red lights and taunting/harassing motorists in two towns a hundred miles apart on the same day. It looked like a damn zoo on the sidewalk. What the hell is going on down there? It will all come to a head soon.


During Irma, we had quite a few displaced groups from SFL up in our area. Just heading to the gas station or corner store had a dangerous vibe to it and I found myself reverting to ways of thinking and doing things from years before. It was surreal pulling overnight security on my own property. Thankfully nothing came of it, but it was a wake up call nonetheless.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

SomaliPirate said:


> During Irma, we had quite a few displaced groups from SFL up in our area. Just heading to the gas station or corner store had a dangerous vibe to it and I found myself reverting to ways of thinking and doing things from years before. It was surreal pulling overnight security on my own property. Thankfully nothing came of it, but it was a wake up call nonetheless.


You get use to checking your surroundings I am on the west side of the the state down here and it's not as bad as the east side. Thankfully i can escape to my dirt road. Remember a lot of them aren't from here (America or the south) so what do you expect.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Backcountry 16 said:


> You get use to checking your surroundings I am on the west side of the the state down here and it's not as bad as the east side. Thankfully i can escape to my dirt road. Remember a lot of them aren't from here (America or the south) so what do you expect.





SomaliPirate said:


> During Irma, we had quite a few displaced groups from SFL up in our area. Just heading to the gas station or corner store had a dangerous vibe to it and I found myself reverting to ways of thinking and doing things from years before. It was surreal pulling overnight security on my own property. Thankfully nothing came of it, but it was a wake up call nonetheless.


I’m just a simple Texas boy and this was all new for me to see firsthand other than shopping at Fiesta on a Saturday in San Antonio...the cops were driving around like nothing out if the ordinary was happening...


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> I’m just a simple Texas boy and this was all new for me to see firsthand other than shopping at Fiesta on a Saturday in San Antonio...the cops were driving around like nothing out if the ordinary was happening...


Democrats run that area.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

makin moves said:


> Democrats run that area.


Looks more like the Haitians do...


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Smackdaddy53 said:


> Looks more like the Haitians do...


Lantins


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

Karenia Brevis is the algae responsible for "red tide." It has been around and impacting the oceans for a long time. Starts 10 to 40 miles offshore. Pollution via nutrients can increase growth of red tide in coastal areas. *Most alarming and what now and increasingly in years to come is how carbon impacts the algae.* From science direct: At higher _p_CO2 concentrations _Karenia brevis_ growth rates are significantly increased.For the complete article see:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568988314000961
There is no question that the algae occurs naturally. So does Uranium 235. There is no question that increased phosphates, other "pollutants" from multiple sources trigger the algae and too climate change. What is different is the scope, size and rate of occurrence as well as how long it stays. It is one indicator of not only the effects of pollution but of warming oceans and carbon. I do not see this as a political question and regardless what one thinks, I think we all better work together. This is not natural anymore. All of the organizations: CCA, FFI, Tarpon Trust, Orvis, name it, and Microskiff.com need to work to expose, educate, vote, reform. I believe we can change this for the better. It will probably get worse before it gets better but it won't get better at all if we all don't organize and act. I know big talk. I am willing, and I will work, I'm in!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Sad state of affairs!


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

7WT said:


> Karenia Brevis is the algae responsible for "red tide." It has been around and impacting the oceans for a long time. Starts 10 to 40 miles offshore. Pollution via nutrients can increase growth of red tide in coastal areas. *Most alarming and what now and increasingly in years to come is how carbon impacts the algae.* From science direct: At higher _p_CO2 concentrations _Karenia brevis_ growth rates are significantly increased.For the complete article see:
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568988314000961
> There is no question that the algae occurs naturally. So does Uranium 235. There is no question that increased phosphates, other "pollutants" from multiple sources trigger the algae and too climate change. What is different is the scope, size and rate of occurrence as well as how long it stays. It is one indicator of not only the effects of pollution but of warming oceans and carbon. I do not see this as a political question and regardless what one thinks, I think we all better work together. This is not natural anymore. All of the organizations: CCA, FFI, Tarpon Trust, Orvis, name it, and Microskiff.com need to work to expose, educate, vote, reform. I believe we can change this for the better. It will probably get worse before it gets better but it won't get better at all if we all don't organize and act. I know big talk. I am willing, and I will work, I'm in!


Go for it. Excited to see your strategic plan and the tactics you will employ that do not involve individuals in the handbag of the exploitative uni party. Let me know how it goes. I gave up 10 million people ago. And moved accordingly.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

https://www.winknews.com/2018/08/08/4-dead-dolphins-wash-ashore-in-venice/

It just doesn't quit.../


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Ben said:


> https://www.winknews.com/2018/08/08/4-dead-dolphins-wash-ashore-in-venice/
> 
> It just doesn't quit.../


"the reason they died is unclear" what is clear is that the water coming out of lake O is unclear and toxic. How long has it been since your last gamma globulin booster? Personally I wouldn't touch a bass or any other fish caught in that lake without rubber gloves.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

camp said:


> "the reason they died is unclear" what is clear is that the water coming out of lake O is unclear and toxic. How long has it been since your last gamma globulin booster? Personally I wouldn't touch a bass or any other fish caught in that lake without rubber gloves.


tell the truth now....how many of you would climb into the red tide/green algae water to work on a dock, sea wall or boat lift? If the answer is nobody.... is it not our responsibility to protect others(perhaps less fortunate from being exposed to the toxins floating in our waters?.....do unto others as you would have done unto you ...is this relevant?


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

We are backing up here folks..One of Trump's first executive orders was to reverse regulations against dumping coal 'byproduct"into rivers (again). What a giant victory against regulation. Is there anyone out there who can see a correlation between you cheering about the destruction of trout streams in W. Virginia and the green toxic garbage that is being dumped into S Florida via its's rivers?. How is everyone in Fl. feeling about their personal contribution to the jobs jobs jobs bull shat and the reality of uncontrolled greed. LOOK IN THE MIRROR...maybe this is what you voted for but maybe not. You can help stop the stupidity in November.



camp said:


> tell the truth now....how many of you would climb into the red tide/green algae water to work on a dock, sea wall or boat lift? If the answer is nobody.... is it not our responsibility to protect others(perhaps less fortunate from being exposed to the toxins floating in our waters?.....do unto others as you would have done unto you ...is this relevant?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Just thinking... Admin, we need "likes" that describe how we feel, like the facebook likes that you can click on people's post, because there would be a lot of shocked, angry and sad like clicks on this thread alone. I don't want to people to think I like that post of the news link for all the dead dolphins in Venice, FL due to red tide, only that I liked the fact that he shared it. Otherwise, this is my reaction....


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

Backwater said:


> Just thinking... Admin, we need "likes" that describe how we feel, like the facebook likes that you can click on people's post, because there would be a lot of shocked, angry and sad like clicks on this thread alone. I don't want to people to think I like that post of the news link for all the dead dolphins in Venice, FL due to red tide, only that I liked the fact that he shared it. Otherwise, this is my reaction....


I was thinking the same thing.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

camp said:


> We are backing up here folks..One of Trump's first executive orders was to reverse regulations against dumping coal 'byproduct"into rivers (again). What a giant victory against regulation. Is there anyone out there who can see a correlation between you cheering about the destruction of trout streams in W. Virginia and the green toxic garbage that is being dumped into S Florida via its's rivers?. How is everyone in Fl. feeling about their personal contribution to the jobs jobs jobs bull shat and the reality of uncontrolled greed. LOOK IN THE MIRROR...maybe this is what you voted for but maybe not. You can help stop the stupidity in November.


Dude, this was happening before Trump. Wrong thread.


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## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

Backwater said:


> Sad state of affairs!


Anyone notice that's a freaking whale shark? Sheesh.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Backwater said:


> Dude, this was happening before Trump. Wrong thread.


Agreed.
Plenty of blame to go around. Bill Nelson has taken $ from big sugar so the problems aren't party biased.


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## Shadowcast16 (Mar 5, 2017)

Doesn't really matter who you vote for in November! The government is not going to fix this! They are more interested in lining their pockets! This will be the responsibility of us sportsman to come up with a plan of some kind and execute. Washington doesn't care if there aren't any fish for us to catch. It will be interesting when this starts to really impact our seasonal visitors and hospitality dollars this season. Not to mention water front property values will go down this year. This is some shiz I don't have a solution to. I am very disappointed my STATE is in this situation.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Brian Mast seems to be pushing hard for a federal help. Until the state suffers enough in real estate and tourism nothing will be done. Seen people boycotting FL sugar in other states. Wonder how much of it is exported to other countries.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Wonder if organizing and raising awareness of a domestic boycott of FL sugar would have any impact. Would be nice if China slapped a huge tarriff on FL sugar lol.


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

Very disappointed last night with Rick Murphy's weekly fishing show (I watch for Bree). Anyway, to my knowledge (didn't watch the full show), there was nothing discussed about our terrible problem. I at least expected the captain from the SW region to talk about it. Nothing. "Fishing is great." I'm sure there are economic pressures from the sponsors, but it would have been a great platform. Too bad.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

I've seen signs that the CCA is beginning to take up this fight - but remember their focus has always been on fishery rules and the legislature -where they've gotten a lot done (I can remember when we got nowhere with any reasonable proposal -over and over again back in the seventies... -that was one of the main drivers for the net ban amendment). Things are a lot different now. Over the years I've not only donated trips for auction to the CCA - I've donated in three different states - and also rounded up other local guides down here in south Florida to do the same year after year (but not recently...). We've all got to play a part.

I am looking forward to them stepping up, though. The outfit that I'm getting behind is Captains for Clean Waters and I think they're well worth everyone's support...


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Don't vote on party affiliation... think of the environment first.

I'm beginning to think, as sad as it sounds, the only solution is another catastrophe with a total failure of the Lake 'O ****, totally flooding everything South of the big Lake. Sorta like the Okeechobee Hurricane of 1928.
Perhaps then the politicians would get the message... the entire drainage system including the **** needs to be re-designed and re-built.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

lemaymiami said:


> The outfit that I'm getting behind is Captains for Clean Waters and I think they're well worth everyone's support...


Same here. They appear to be the one group that is truly pro-water and non-partisan.

There really is no moral or political high ground here...for the left or right.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2018)

Tarpon Nole said:


> Not really a he wrong thread.
> 
> Know who you are voting for. Current administration is rolling back epa regulations. They are even allowing asbestos to be used once again
> 
> ...


The problem here, vote for this guy, vite for that guy! The solution...
Remind these assclowns who the hell they work for in the first place!!!


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## Tonyskiff (Jan 7, 2018)

Backwater said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1712221028876344
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is f*cking terrorism. corrupt government all about $$. ive never seen water so disgusting looking here Miami area. no more normal blue water at the beach. sad..


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2018)

We can fire them all, just need some signatures and a couple attorneys lol!


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> We can fire them all, just need some signatures and a couple attorneys lol!


I don't agree but I'm pretty sure you're being sarcastic (takes one to know one). It will sadly take more serious action to get things done.....


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## Tonyskiff (Jan 7, 2018)

Obviously these assholes have a big issue with math solving. If people are gonna stop coming to South Florida then what? Florida's sugar production aint gonna be enough to run healthy state economy. Its all one big daisy chain of local business that heavily rely on local tropical weather. Money flows internationally because of what we have here. If we screw up the main thing our ocean then prepare to make whole Florida state one huge fucking filed of sugar cane cuz there will be nothing here to do.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2018)

Ben said:


> I don't agree but I'm pretty sure you're being sarcastic (takes one to know one). It will sadly take more serious action to get things done.....


Sarcastically Serious, it’s called a revolution and our founding fathers had the balls and less power than we!


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Hows this for ironic nostalgia... 

(Circa 2010) Said Scott: "Unfortunately for U.S. Sugar, I can't be bought. As governor, I will stand up to the Tallahassee special interests and fight against the irresponsible tax-and-spend policies that career politicians continue to support."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pa...nk-ahead-both/2mDizA5mkIPhI2UObp1CWP/amp.html


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

This is not just south Florida's problem anymore. Its crept northward and now in West Central Florida since it just started to pour into the south side of Tampa Bay today. Word tells that people are canceling beach vacation rentals due to all the smell from the dead fish washing ashore from Siesta Key to Anna Maria Island, as well as people coughing and being short of breath. Millions are already being lost from Sarasota to Manatee counties, not including the losses suffered from Charlotte, Lee and Collier counties.

The forecast is red tide saturation into Tampa Bay and northward to St. Pete thru Clearwater within the next week or so. Pinellas, Hillsborough and Pasco are next to be targeted for some serious residue losses.

Interesting to see a correlation from the water quality damages the state has suffered from the Mosquito Lagoon, Indian River Lagoon System out east of us over the past several years (and they are not out of the dark yet), as well as water quality problems from the 10,000 Islands, Everglades, Flamingo area and Florida Bay. 

You'd think people would wake up in our State and Federal capitals and actually do something about it.


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## jboriol (Jan 2, 2010)

My view at the boat ramp last Saturday...launching the skiff was putrid and nauseating and I almost went home. I also saw a dead fish for miles and schools of dolphins acting very strange amidst the floating mats of dead fish. The water was reddish and looked like some post apocalyptic movie. My kids go back to school Monday and I was so pissed to tell them we could not go boating, fishing, or paddle boarding this weekend. 

Red tides have been documented since the 1700’s. Now it’s starting to look like a collapse on several fronts. But this damage was done over the course of time and started with an assault on our ecosystem when they started altering the Everglades in the late 1800’s. It’s not any one thing but a multitude of environmental management missteps, overpopulation, overdevelopment, greed, lack of public awareness, and political folly that got us here. 

It’s getting old seeing people post these f#%* this guy and it’s his fault all over social media when this problem will take a major mobilization like nothing we’ve ever seen and generations to undo, with relocation of residents to restore the flow, a war chest of cash, and political balls to really see any progress. I think all the awareness with Captains for Clean Water and Bull Sugar is awesome but the average person is clueless to what’s really going on. I think people need to better understand why we got here before we can focus and unify towards a workable solution. 

If you haven’t already I recommend you read “The Swamp” by Michael Grunwald to get better educated on how we got here. It’s not perfect and shows political bias but really fascinating and important if you want really understand our states most important issue. If the residents of this state don’t arm themselves with an understanding of what we have done and what we are facing it won’t change because the sugar tycoons and the politicians have proven useless and are the foxes guarding the hen house.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2018)

We need a “Super size me”/ “Blackfish” type documentary on the subject!


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

The Maine Portland Press carried an AP article "Devastating Algae Bloom" on west florida situation, page 3!!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Also interesting note. I'm not sure if this green algea soup coming out of the river turns into red tide, but one thing I can tell you is going up on that river, I never seen any green stuff like that until recently. There is an interesting similarity to all the bio algea fuel companies starting to pop up in Ft Myers and in a few other places that has the possibility to drain in the river.


































































In comparison to what they are growing in these facilities. Companies like Algenol Biotech have no containment or EPA regulations on what they are doing and the product they grow. Algae can be like a virus and if not properly contained, can spread like a disease. They results can be like what's happening in those pictures above in this reply.





































They raise crazy money from naive investors and investment companies only to not really produce any biofuel. Who knows what they do with the over stock and by products they need to get rid of. Interesting and erry at the same time how ditches and creeks are close to their facilities, much like the septic plants I described earlier in this thread. That run off has to go somewhere, especially when big storms and hurricanes hit (hint, hint....). Suspect!!! 

We don't have this problem in any other river on the Gulf coast of Florida to my knowledge. We currently have a lot of rainwater flowing in the Manatee River that divided Bradenton from the Palmetto/Ellenton area and no green algae problems.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Oh boy... those photos look exactly like what's been happening over on the atlantic side (St. Lucie, Stuart, etc.) for a couple of years now.... All of the commotion over that way has been specifically because of the blue/green algae blooms, just like your current pictures... 

And of course both sides of Florida are exactly where all those nutrient laden waters from Okeechobee are discharged into... By the way, although I'm being polite calling it "nutrient laden" you'd be absolutely correct to call it "badly polluted" - and it has to stop, but to do that we need to clean up the big lake since it's the first source of our many inter-connected water problems from Orlando all the down to the Keys...


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2018)

Ok, so to answer some questions... red tide is not and algae it’s a phytoplankton and is natural and been here forever, algae is a plant. Both are naturally occuring yes, but they are growing at an alarmingly fast rate and staying around longer! We humans are most certainly adding to the problem with all of our pollution, changing water flows, ect... I don’t think that algae Backwater pictured would be nearly what it is without all the excess nitrogen and phosphorous that it’s feeding on! Sad thing is, all those dead and decaying fish and other animals are just gonna feed it more!


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/priyas...ncing-its-most-toxic-algae-bloom-in-a-decade/
Not sure if this link will work but the article helps to explain blue green algae and red tide and how blue green can in fact contribute to red tide. It is specific to Florida.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

woke up this a.m and went trolling in Lake Superior. When I got thirsty I grabbed a cup of water out of the lake ( I have been doing this for 50 years). This is what clean water is. After cleaning a couple of fish my wife and I went to a pow-wow down the road and I bought a button that reads "defend the sacred" This is our job, yours and mine....Minnesota, Florida...same thing. Not preaching...we are fighting the same battles against deregulation. foreign corporations,greed, shortsighted lying politicians .. the same as you guys in Florida.

Please ask your self, will you or your family personally benefit from the US government selling Americas treasures (your treasures, our families treasures}...our national parks, our monuments, our coastlines, our wilderness areas, our BLM lands, our waterways, our airspace? American hunters and fisherman have always been wealthy beyond our dreams but everyday we are all losing more and more of our true wealth and our heritage. It is being sold from under us and being compromised with the blessing of elected politicians. JOBS..Jobs..jobs...BS. You cannot buy what is being taken from you.


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## Capt. Eli Whidden (Jun 7, 2012)

Fill kill in ENP. More fuel for the fire


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Capt. Eli Whidden said:


> Fill kill in ENP. More fuel for the fire
> View attachment 37120
> View attachment 37122
> View attachment 37124


Glad I cannot see up close.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Capt Eli... where was that fish kill ? The reason I ask is that in Florida Bay, particularly this time of year, we can get fish kills in some parts of that area without a touch of red tide or algae problems.. The combination of really hot water and sudden changes in salinity (lots of rain onto really shallow, hot flats...) can reduce the oxygen content in the water enough that fish die off occur..... and, of course, that's what I'm hoping for since things are bad enough in the bights east of Flamingo already.


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## Capt. Eli Whidden (Jun 7, 2012)

lemaymiami said:


> Capt Eli... where was that fish kill ? The reason I ask is that in Florida Bay, particularly this time of year, we can get fish kills in some parts of that area without a touch of red tide or algae problems.. The combination of really hot water and sudden changes in salinity (lots of rain onto really shallow, hot flats...) can reduce the oxygen content in the water enough that fish die off occur..... and, of course, that's what I'm hoping for since things are bad enough in the bights east of Flamingo already.


Yep, not red tide but shitty water quality nevertheless. Same location as usual, due south of dump keys.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

yeah, holding hands will solve everything









https://www.cbsnews.com/news/people...-defend-water-and-wildlife-amid-algae-blooms/


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## NativeBone (Aug 16, 2017)

yobata said:


> yeah, holding hands will solve everything
> 
> 
> 
> ...


its the singing of kumbaya that really helps


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## slewis (Sep 8, 2015)

yobata said:


> yeah, holding hands will solve everything
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Now this is more like it...


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Been a lot of years since I was young 'un... and foolish enough to think that good intentions solved problems... 

Our current problems were a long time in the making (and we all ought to go look in the mirror before we go looking for other villains...) and they'll take even longer to fix. Water quality issues in our state will also require so much money to fix and that's why it's a lot easier to complain and make promises than actually do something about it....


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2018)

We just sent a $1.5 billion rocket and satelite screaming towards the sun, maybe we just need to get our priorities straight! This blueberry will be long gone before we put a colony on Mars!


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Boatbrains said:


> We just sent a $1.5 billion rocket and satelite screaming towards the sun, maybe we just need to get our priorities straight! This blueberry will be long gone before we put a colony on Mars!


I'm not well versed on the financing of the last launch, but I believe United Launch Alliance is a private venture between Boeing/Lockheed Martin. Although the cargo may have been a NASA thing??


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2018)

You could be right, but they too see our tax dollars in they’re accounts.


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

These people are protesting and they are getting media coverage which is far more than a web site blog. I commend them. It is exactly what is needed in addition to everything and anything else.


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

“It’s naturally occurring, but so is cancer,” said Randy Wayne White, an author of best-selling novels brimming with Florida’s long history of environmental woes, and a former fishing guide. “I have yet to read any statistically provable data that I can say to you, ‘This proves that nutrient pollution, fertilizer pollution, exacerbates red tide.’ But I do know this, having grown up on a farm: If you fertilize something, it grows.”


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Remember as well that we've been discharging east and west from the big lake for many, many years... If the flow of water didn't contain any nutrients at all (the way it's supposed to...) it would make a dramatic difference on both coasts. The fact that you're seeing terrible outbreaks of blue/green algae on both sides of the state - exactly where the water goes when it's discharged tells you all you need to know about the amount of nutrients.... that have fouled those waters.

It has to stop - the big lake badly needs a clean up (and rules/laws in place to prevent all the little things (and great big things like the discharges from agricultural lands) that add nutrients to any waters that flow into it so that we don't go through this again and again... The next step is to re-create some sort of flow way for that water all the way south down into the heart of the Everglades - then on its way to Florida Bay (where it's badly needed...). I know we'll never be able to re-establish the way things were before we monkeyed with it - but it really needs to be done -no matter how much it will cost. While all of this is happening we also need a system of filtration marshes to make sure the overload of nutrients coming out of Lake Okeechobee are cleaned up before heading south. 

If we can do this we'll be able to quit discharging fouled waters down the Caloosahatchee to the west and the St. Lucie to the east... All of it will take years to accomplish and I don't expect I'll be around to see much more than the start (if we actually do something...) but we know what the problems are and we've got a pretty good idea of what it will take - we just need to get going...


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## eightwt (May 11, 2017)

Starting to ssee some national coverage. Tucker Carson had a segment last night and questioned why it had taken so long to reach a crisis. Had a scientist on but don't remember his name.


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## eightwt (May 11, 2017)

Should have said classified a crisis.


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

In a wire report in today's paper regarding Gov Scott's 7 county state of emergency Kelly Richmond, a spokeswoman for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission said:"The algae lurk in seawater for most of the year, but the past two months have produced a nonstop assault of high concentration for reasons that have eluded researchers."


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

reasons that have eluded researchers?


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

We talk alot about using land below Lake O to restore flow to the Glades and reduce pressure on the estuaries to the east and west, but I hear very little discussion about factors north of Lake O which contribute to water quality and the high level of nutrients. Do we throw Orlando and Disney and etc into the discussion? That area has certainly been developed at an alarming rate the last several years...


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

crboggs said:


> We talk alot about using land below Lake O to restore flow to the Glades and reduce pressure on the estuaries to the east and west, but I hear very little discussion about factors north of Lake O which contribute to water quality and the high level of nutrients. Do we throw Orlando and Disney and etc into the discussion? That area has certainly been developed at an alarming rate the last several years...


 Good point Chris it all flows south.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

To my way of thinking one of the very first steps of any cleanup (if that's even possible) is a thorough survey of the big lake - every part of it -particularly in an effort to figure out if there's any portion of the feeders into it that are particularly problematic. A lot I don't know about that lake - for instance is there any current monitoring of it for nutrient levels (and not just at the point where it's being discharged)? Identifying that, and figuring out how to reduce it before it comes into the lake might go a long way to an eventual reduction in the fouling of that body of water. That in itself might fix a lot of problems downstream once the waters leave the lake....


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## Capnredfish (Feb 1, 2012)

Do your part. Switch to Splenda. Hand holders will go to buck stars after and order extra sugar.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Capnredfish said:


> Do your part. Switch to Splenda. Hand holders will go to buck stars after and order extra sugar.


I like my coffee the way I like my drum; oversized and black.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Backcountry 16 said:


> Good point Chris it all flows south.


Not my point, just something someone raised in an offline discussion so I tossed it in here.

We're focused an awful lot here about the Sugar land and flow south of Lake O...but we've discussed factors north of Lake O very little...


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

I wonder if there are any types of large scale water filters in use anywhere else on major river systems. If so adding water cleaning stations into the system, one around the bottom of Lake Kissimmee as it enters the river, one at the end of the Kissimmee river before it reaches lake O and then several others on lake O where the water exits towards the coast. Aside from natural filtration which seems unable to keep up this seems like a feasible idea. Probably expensive but surely it's possible considering we put a man on the moon almost 50 years ago.


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## RobA (Aug 21, 2015)

The water could be crystal clear and safe to drink and I still wouldn't want it to be sent down the Caloosahatchee in major releases. The nutrient load is a barrier to sending it south, though, because of the Micosukee litigation.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Personally, I think the lake run-off should have been mitigated in a way to discharge it slowly into the Glades just south of the sugar fields and let it filter thru the Glades to the mangrove marshes. Think about it. There is no better natural filter and the extra nutrients will only help restore the plush vegetation the Glades once had before they choked off the water flow from Lake O by building the dike, the rim canal and dredged out both the Caloosahatchee River and the St Lucie. Otherwise, as Lake O overflowed back before the dike and such, it would have allowed the natural flow of water to head south across the Glades and do it's magic. Stories of old timers and the Miccosukee indians talked about Payhayokee (the River of Grass), Everglades and Big Cypress Swamp, once lush and green, but now is parched and dry most of the times, compares to what it once was. By allowing that water to funnel through a series of release drainage canals and ditches from Lake O, directly cut thru the sugar fields, to an east/west canal, on the south side of those fields. That would distribute it evenly across the top of the remaining Glades and Big Cypress and then allow the natural gravity flow to pull it slowly across the glades, thereby feeding it nutrients it once and water volume it once had, instead of shooting it down the Caloosahatchee all at once, hence the cause of our problems today.










The end results would be a cleaner bill of health for both the freshwater side AND the saltwater side of the Glades, as well as the problem being solved for releasing so much lake water down the drain to the salt (major waste of good freshwater), through the Caloosahatchee. No green pea soup, limiting factors to spur on the red tide algae, fresh water restored to the Glades, sea grass beds being restored on the flats, etc., etc. etc....

I can tell you that there is no cheaper or quicker fix and most everyone will be on-board with, including Big Sugar (cause they know there is a problem). Btw, this is my own idea and I will be happy to draw it out and consult on it, to those powers to be. 

Ted Haas


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

That's always been the exact idea Ted... only two problems - the overflow from the big lake is just full of nutrients - the exact opposite of what the Everglades need.... Water full of nutrients would simply radically change both the 'Glades, the existing plant life - and everything that comes from that. That's why all the models talk about cleaning up the water before it's sent south... Seems like every fix for one problem or other involving the Everglades has hurt us more than helped over the years so we need to really think this through and come up with something comprehensive - then and only then get to work....

The other not so small problem is that the creation of flood control all those years ago ended any means of "sending the water south". In short, we'd have to create it - that's a really big bucks proposition (as if any of it wouldn't cost a bunch of money...). That's why it's always been much easier for politicians (bless their pointy heads...) to promise fixes than actually do them....

Some good news about any cleanup is that small scale projects (creating filtration marshes, etc.) have been found to work just fine. A few agricultural outfits have shown that they can clean up their own nutrient problems and actually meet that given standard - before their discharges leave their properties... so it is all possible...

That's why I emphasized cleaning up Lake Okeechobee as a big first step since if the water is cleaner then a lot less clean up will be needed to "send it south" where it belongs. None of this would be an immediate fix - and both the St. Lucie and the Caloosahatchee need relief yesterday.... The Corps has to release water from the big lake when it gets too high since that old dike is a threat to everyone downstream - they don't dare risk a dike failure since a lot of folks would be killed if it ever happened... So we're definitely between a rock and something even harder. No easy fixes I'm afraid.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Cleaning the water entering the lake.. great idea.
Cleaning water exiting the lake.. great idea.

Make polluter's financially responsible.. never going to happen as the people tp make this happen are politician's who need/want the $$$ the polluters are putting into the political purses.

The Corps... for sure the have to release water to protect the people South of the Lake in case the failing **** fails like the ***** in LA during hurricane Katrina.
The quick best fix would be to strat by replacing the ****... we all know its failing, there are better engineering solutions to building a new better ****. Look at LA they rebuilt and fixed their failed **** in less than 2 years, my son worked for an engineering firm that did some of the work... I'm sure they'd be very happy to consult.
You have to believe that if the funds could be procured a totatl rebuild of the **** could be done in a few years. This could solve the quick release panic dumping if the **** could hold the water it was originally designed to hold, plus on the rebuild it could be brouhght up another few feet to hold an additioanl several billion gallons of water.

Long term light a fire under the Corp's and SFWMD to complete their many year's of bs planning a Southern flow release plan... and start implementation stage. I have been following this planning online for many years.. the most recent stuff (several years of recent) they built a few flowways under US41 and for well over a year been testing results of allowing water to be released in the head-end of E-Glades Nat. park... but its way to slooooowwwwwwwww!


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## RobA (Aug 21, 2015)

Flood control is another big barrier to the send it south plan. If you look at the Army Corps' comments on the SFWMD plan to create the reservoir, most of the major hurdles are flood control related. They don't want to create another Okeechobee dike situation.


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Backwater said:


> Personally, I think the lake run-off should have been mitigated in a way to discharge it slowly into the Glades just south of the sugar fields and let it filter thru the Glades to the mangrove marshes. Think about it. There is no better natural filter and the extra nutrients will only help restore the plush vegetation the Glades once had before they choked off the water flow from Lake O by building the dike, the rim canal and dredged out both the Caloosahatchee River and the St Lucie. Otherwise, as Lake O overflowed back before the dike and such, it would have allowed the natural flow of water to head south across the Glades and do it's magic. Stories of old timers and the Miccosukee indians talked about Payhayokee (the River of Grass), Everglades and Big Cypress Swamp, once lush and green, but now is parched and dry most of the times, compares to what it once was. By allowing that water to funnel through a series of release drainage canals and ditches from Lake O, directly cut thru the sugar fields, to an east/west canal, on the south side of those fields. That would distribute it evenly across the top of the remaining Glades and Big Cypress and then allow the natural gravity flow to pull it slowly across the glades, thereby feeding it nutrients it once and water volume it once had, instead of shooting it down the Caloosahatchee all at once, hence the cause of our problems today.
> 
> View attachment 37478
> 
> ...


“nutrient enrichment can have negative consequences for mangrove forests and their capacity for retention of nutrients may be limited.”

https://academic.oup.com/treephys/article/30/9/1148/1641261

Ted, unfortunately mangroves aren’t great at taking excess N and P out of the water. Excessive P in the runoff will lead to explosions of growth of cattails (already happening)-which aren’t native in that capacity to that ecosystem- and completely changes the dynamics.

Simply draining the water through the “river of grass” and restoring the natural flow sounds great, until you realize that the natural flow didn’t contain nearly the amounts of N and P that contaminate the water. The issue is the fertilizer runoff. Releasing that water south in its current state will probably do more harm in the long term.


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

mosquitolaGOON said:


> “nutrient enrichment can have negative consequences for mangrove forests and their capacity for retention of nutrients may be limited.”
> 
> https://academic.oup.com/treephys/article/30/9/1148/1641261
> 
> ...


Correct, but most of the nitrogen and phosphorus would be converted by grasses before it reached the glades mangrove system if given enough residence time(surface area-all of the ag area south of the lake-think big) and sheet flow.


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

sjrobin said:


> Correct, but most of the nitrogen and phosphorus would be converted by grasses before it reached the glades mangrove system if given enough residence time(surface area-all of the ag area south of the lake-think big) and sheet flow.


The influx in P would allow the invasive cattails to take over the native sawgrass, which would change the entire ecology of that area. The “natural flow” would return but you would be allowing invasives to flourish. Cattails push wildlife like deer, ducks, and fish away because they are so dense. So you would absorb the nutrients, but at the cost of the biodiversity of the Everglades.

Reducing the P in the lake or before it even gets to the lake is the solution, everything else is just allowing agriculture to continue polluting.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Guys, Yes of course, I agree that Big Phosphate needs to stop their illegal trickle of their wastewater into our water system. Also, water containment from Big Sugar and all of the other farms surrounding the south side of the lake (heck, anywhere), like Water Mngmt districts require with housing sub divisions. BTW, there is ALSO, the citrus industry (hoge crop for Florida) fertilizes the heck out of their groves and then run overflow waters back into the Lake and the Caloosatchee and Kissimmee chain). Anyways, that directive for water clean up and water containment is a given. But once done and cleaned, whatever residual P & N left in the system after the cleanup happens, will be so little, that it will be absorbed throughout the Glades and the outcome will be almost like purified water. The "river of grass" and saw grass marshes is like a giant water filtration system and water on the other side can be almost as cleaned as purified water before it hits the swamps and mangrove marshes. I know, I've been there and drank that clean water when it was flowing many times and taste better than bottled water. It's not until it hits the swamps and woods until it starts taking on that tannic acid from the tree roots, as well as picking up a bit of other organics.

So this ocean of grass and swamp sits on hard limerock stone that would welcome any remaining N & P and organic nutrients coming from the lake (After any affluent runoffs are cleaned up), before hitting any mangroves or saltwater. Organic nutrients use to be naturally occurring from the Kissimmee chain into Lake O, as well as other run offs into Lake O, then naturally flowing southward thru the Glades. The Glades have been choked off from those nutrients for almost 70yrs, as well as being choked off of regular flows of water, by cutting canals to drain the swamp. So the Glades have been starving and dry all these years. I say again, stories of old spoke about a lush green Everglades, than is now dry and parched, as well as not getting the natural nutrients flowing on a regular basis that it once had. Remember, phosphates are also naturally occurring from the limestone bedrock as well, but it hardly get's enough of that either since there is hardly any water flow, not to mention the steady stream of organic nutrients supply that it once had.

Bottom line is, yes, require that industry and farming water remains onsite or their facilities with water retention ponds. There they can reuse that water instead of pulling in new water and sending old contaminated water down stream. Next, remove canals already cut back in the 50's to drain off the Glades, to help restore the natural water flows. Finally, channel the water from Lake O thru Big Sugar and farming property to a feeder canal running east/west across the top of the Glades, so it can slowly be released evenly across the Glades to run southward. This will keep Lake O levels down when needed, where they are suppose to be to keep everyone safe, as well as feed and water the Glades, as close to Mother Nature's original intentions. This will also keep the Army Corp of Engineers releasing huge discharges of water, which is causing huge problems downstream.

Btw Bob, I've yet to see a plan like that. Lots of talk, but nobody putting it in writing to have something that can estimate costs and time frames. Which, quite frankly, we are running out of time on this one.

Ted Haas


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2018)

I like that plan! It makes sense!


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

There was a meeting today posted on Bullsugar that was led by Brian Mast. It was very informative and seemed like a step in the right direction. Lots of pissed off folks in high positions calling for immediate and drastic change.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Here's hoping we do get a comprehensive plan on restoring the 'Glades, fixing the big lake, and stopping the terrible discharges (and all the bad consequences that follow...).

I think that a large part of it will be requiring every water user anywhere near Lake Okeechobee to retain nutrient laden waters on their own land and not allow a drop leave that hasn't been cleaned up first. Along with that will have to be a a set of rules for every municipality all the way down to the homeowner level to actually stop or greatly reduce the use of any chemicals on their properties -when it could be reasonably predicted that storm waters (or just the usual heavy rains....) would send them downstream into any means of winding up in the Lake...

Over and over it's been noted that we've had lots of proposals and projects over the years that never seemed to get completed.... We all need to recognize that many times proposed actions simply wind up in court as one party or another objects and ties everything up in court -endlessly... It's a sad fact that much of the current regulations about water problems actually are court orders of one kind or another... This situation is tailor made to keep an army of lawyers in business until your eyes glaze over and you start thinking that we'll never get anywhere... This just one more problem that will need to get solved ...


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

But the Army Core and SFWMD keep chugging along with the same old plan....

Long ago 20/30 years the flow was running thru the swamp areas and the Indian Tribes got it shut down for exactly what was said above, any old timers remember all the cat tails along the alley or the L67 canals... the tribes got together and fought the law and the law lost.. they got that shitflow through the Cypress and Norther Everglades shut down. And they would win again if someone tried to re-open the sheet-flow through the glades and cypress swamps with out first cleaning the water... the only chance now is clean it, or pipe it around them, then see what happens to ENP when that crap hits there.... yes we all know that ENP badly need fresh water flow, but its got to be cleaned up first or bad things will happen.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

krash said:


> But the Army Core and SFWMD keep chugging along with the same old plan....
> 
> Long ago 20/30 years the flow was running thru the swamp areas and the Indian Tribes got it shut down for exactly what was said above, any old timers remember all the cat tails along the alley or the L67 canals... the tribes got together and fought the law and the law lost.. they got that shitflow through the Cypress and Norther Everglades shut down. And they would win again if someone tried to re-open the sheet-flow through the glades and cypress swamps with out first cleaning the water... the only chance now is clean it, or pipe it around them, then see what happens to ENP when that crap hits there.... yes we all know that ENP badly need fresh water flow, but its got to be cleaned up first or bad things will happen.


Since that shutdown, I live on the C11 canal, SFWMD changed the flow of the C11 canal.. for many years it seldom flowed East, and mainly flowed West when the gate and pumps at Holiday park were open, now it mainly flows East 90% of the time, they added a new pump ststion at NobHill & Orange/Griffin to help it flow. Water is deflected flowing South at the New River US27 & I75, adn again at Holiday park but not deflected EastWards.
This flow has completely changed the C11 canal, today the water is much darker, the Peacock and LM bass polutaion has diminished compared to what it used to be, maybe the water maybe coincidence (I don't believe in coincidence), but on the flip side the Tarpon and Snook fishing has gotten better.

I wish I could get hold of the electro-shock numbers in the New River and C11 canals for the past 40 years. I see them doing it in the C11 once in a while.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

And just to stir the pot - here's today's red tide report from the FWC... and just like in recent months - the news is just plain bad...

A bloom of the Florida red tide organism, _Karenia brevis_, persists in Southwest Florida and currently extends along ~130 miles of coastline. Observations of >1,000,000 _K. brevis_ cells per liter (“high” concentrations) continue to occur at coastal and inshore sites from Manatee to Collier counties, although cell concentrations decreased in parts of Manatee, Sarasota, Lee, and Collier counties relative to last week. Coastal currents important for transporting cells of _K. brevis_ continue to alternate between predominantly northern or southern flow. _K. brevis_ was observed in Pinellas County (for the second week in a row), and additional sampling there and in Hillsborough County indicated that concentrations were below 100,000 cells per liter in all samples examined. More specific details are provided below and at http://myfwc.com/redtidestatus.

In Southwest Florida over the past week, _K. brevis_ was observed at background to low concentrations in Pinellas County, very low concentrations in or offshore of Hillsborough County, background to high concentrations in Manatee County, background to high concentrations in or offshore of Sarasota County, background to high concentrations in or offshore of Charlotte County, background to high concentrations in or offshore of Lee County, and very low to high concentrations in Collier County.

In Northwest Florida over the past week, _K. brevis_ was observed at background concentrations in one sample collected from Santa Rosa County.

Additional samples collected throughout Florida over the past week did not contain _K. brevis_.

We continue to receive reports of fish kills in Southwest Florida. Over the past week, reports were received for multiple locations in Pinellas, Manatee, Sarasota, Charlotte, Lee, and Collier counties. More detailed information is available at http://myfwc.com/fishkill.

Respiratory irritation was reported over the past week in Pinellas County, Manatee County, Sarasota County, Lee County, and Collier County.

Forecasts by the USF-FWC Collaboration for Prediction of Red Tides for Pinellas to northern Monroe counties predict variable movement of surface waters with net northern transport expected close to shore, and net southeastern transport of subsurface waters over the next three days.

This information, including maps and reports with additional details, is also available on the FWRI Red Tide website. The website also provides links to additional information related to the topic of Florida red tide including satellite imagery, experimental red tide forecasts, shellfish harvesting areas, the FWC Fish Kill Hotline, the Florida Poison Information Center (to report human health effects related to exposure to red tide), and other wildlife related hotlines.

To learn more about various organisms that have been known to cause algal blooms in Florida waters, see the FWRI Red Tide Flickr page. Archived status maps can also be found on Flickr. 

The FWRI HAB group in conjunction with Mote Marine Laboratory now have a Facebook page. Please like our page and learn interesting facts concerning red tide and other harmful algal blooms in Florida.

Additional information regarding the current status of algal blooms in South Florida is being consolidated and posted on the Florida Department of Environmental Protection’s website: https://floridadep.gov/dear/algal-bloom.


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## Megalops (Oct 23, 2011)

This has got to be one of the worst red tides I remember. My father in law sent this from Longboat yesterday. Dead fish everywhere and the beaches are almost deserted. Very sad.


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

I plan on calling Kelly Richmond whi is quoted as saying the reason "eludes researchers." Crazy


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Megalops said:


>


Tarpon, that sucks.

Some years ago, some offshore commercial fisherman spotted acres of grown size tarpon, all dead and floating. They said there were thousands of them and their best guesstimates were due to that offshore redtide pocket way offshore of Sanibel Island and these migrating tarpon swam right into the middle of it. They were spotted on the north side of Captiva pass in May and looked like they were heading to Boca Grande. There were significantly lower numbers of poons showing up in BG pass that year, as was this year.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

UPDATE!!!

The count of *dead manatees* are now up to *540!!!
*
This issue is being brought up to the Board of County Commissioners for Manatee County meeting this month to discuss what can be done about it. I don't think there is much they can due since our county has nothing to do about the apparent cause of the problem, tho it has seriously effected the income of the county and their businesses. Maybe take a closer look at what we as individuals can do to be more environmentally friendly with we do as home owners (lawn fertilizers and such), as well as farm fields retaining their own water run-offs (should me a mandated thing). Also County owned and controlled water run-offs and possibly join with other counties to petition the State to prod them to get more involved and react to the crisis quicker.

Lots of outside talk with different groups, but not much talk going on in the government about doing something about it. Be it, mandating a research team to find solutions and budget committees without dragging this along too long, or sourcing an outsider organization to do just that. But they need to start doing something soon!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2037644989603449


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1783468961707163


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)




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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=557695117981253


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1711569468935329


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)




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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)




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## fishicaltherapist (Mar 9, 2013)

Thank God they didn't "CAVE" to $$$$. Maybe they remembered Piney Point disaster & what it did to Bishop's Harbor. I have suggested to the commissioners on BOTH coasts to ban green lawns (phosphates & weed killing poisons) and go to stone,lava rock,faux turf, etc. Funny, I haven't had one reply.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

You can still see the effects from that spill. Check out the google satellite of the mangroves on the north side of Bishops harbor. Not look on the north side of the port on top of the gypsum stack and you will see the same color residue from that defunk stack. The really did a number on the north side of the gypsum stack up inside the mangroves. But it's so far inside, that its out of site from most fisherman. But I've been way up in there and the bottom looks like you are walking on Mars. It also smells of chemicals. This WAS a main nursery for many species where their fry would swim up and hide from predators, eat mosquito larvae and minnows and grow, including lots of mullet fry. Now, there's nothing up in there. This whole estuary system drains thru creeks, ditches and mangrove roots to Tampa Bay. Notice the same rusty colored water as on the Phosphate Gypsum stack pond?

[Click the pics to enlarge]










Now notice on aerial that there is a 3ft wide black pipe that comes on top of the stack pond, down the south side of the stack, crosses under Piney Point road thru a culvert, down towards the water due west along that ditch, then takes a 45 degree SW thru the Port of Manatee's private property, then out to the water, along the bottom and way out underwater to the shipping channel. You can see it clear as day on Google Satellite/ Google Earth. Basically, the pipe is temporary and they are quietly draining the toxic water off that holding pond located on the top of that gypsum by product (which is the by-product of processing phosphate, using sulfuric acid. So this toxic slurry is currently being pumped out to Tampa Bay. This will add to the Red Tide that is entering the Mouth of Tampa Bay. Based on that video several replies above this one (U of M Professor), our fish can be contaminated with crap that can seriously cause major health risk to those of us who eat the fish out of the Bay.










And this pic is the left side or west side of the pic above, which shows Tampa Bay!










You can drive down there from where you live and see the pipe and pump stations there for yourself. Also you can take your BT to that corner NW sea wall corner and see that same pipe go into the water.

How the EPA allowed this to happen is beyond me! There must have been some palms greased over this thing!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Here is a couple of interesting pics from a craigslist ad that a guy is trying to sell his sailboat in Sarasota!


















Notice all the dead fish floating in the background! I can spot snook, refish, trout and mullet in these pics, and I'm sure any other specie that swam in those waters. This is the intercoastal side of Sarasota. And the beaches are wiped out! Talk about wiping out an entire eco system!!!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Backwater said:


> UPDATE!!!
> 
> The count of *dead manatees* are now up to *540!!!
> *
> ...


I just lost my summer renters for next year. Guess two summers of red tide, dead fish and ugly water took their toll. The loss of lodging tax and tourist dollars is going to hit Fl. very hard in c


Backwater said:


> Here is a couple of interesting pics from a craigslist ad that a guy is trying to sell his boat in Sarasota!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I lost my summer renter(florida family of fisherman) for next year. I guess two years of red tide, dead fish and filthy water took their toll. can not blame anyone I would probably do the same. Florida best brace for huge loses in lodging tax and tourist dollar revenues. This loss is going to grow exponentially over several or many years until the people of Florida demand that the money they have already been paying to protect the water and environment starts buying and protecting resources and stops being used to save/give money to multimillionaires and billionaires. Follow the money....you already know who is responsible. Don't let crazy national politics to convince you to vote for someone you know is on the take and has zero concern for your resources. The solution is local and starts in November.


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## fishicaltherapist (Mar 9, 2013)

Piney Point phosphate had been closed, then reopened with overtures of maintaining strict environmental precautions. Then they abandoned the location, leaving ANOTHER environmental disaster. EIGHT (8) of the ELEVEN(11) morons went right back into the phosphate business. WE taxpayers are left hanging AGAIN !!! Greased palms is right !!


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

This is/was posted on this site earlier, credit to the poster (I'm to lazy to go back and gather your name), even though its a duplicate post It would be well served in this thread for future, and present, reference.

Florida Sportsman "Dead in the Water", good read...


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Giant snook washed up on one of the Bradenton beaches!










This sickens me because snook are my #1 favorite fish!


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## E-money (Jul 7, 2016)

There is no doubting that there is a problem here, and I wouldn't dare suggest otherwise. I am ignorant to most of this issue as I am never in Florida, but I see a lot of blame put on sugar companies and their discharging into the local waters. What is the composition of this discharge that could be resulting in this bloom? From my work in industrial settings, the permitting requirements for environmental discharge is so incredibly strict that I am unsure how this would translate into creating or feeding an issue of this magnitude. I am not trying to challenge any of this, I am just trying to learn.


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## E-money (Jul 7, 2016)

I read Backwaters first post and while that seems to explain how the bloom occurs, I cannot imagine that these "runoffs" are exempt from environmental release permitting. The local DEQ and EPA would be significantly fining these companies to tune of millions of dollars. This would not be seen as an acceptable practice by any of the companies being called out. Has all of this been verified? Is the proposed fix to shut down the companies participating or ensure these practices are amended?


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Here is a link to the latest aerial map released by FWC showing the area's affected, West Coast side... http://myfwc.com/media/4481632/swmap0822.pdf


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2018)

E-money said:


> I read Backwaters first post and while that seems to explain how the bloom occurs, I cannot imagine that these "runoffs" are exempt from environmental release permitting. The local DEQ and EPA would be significantly fining these companies to tune of millions of dollars. This would not be seen as an acceptable practice by any of the companies being called out. Has all of this been verified? Is the proposed fix to shut down the companies participating or ensure these practices are amended?


When the fines are cheaper to pay than building and maintaining a proper water treatment system then they just keep paying the fines. It’s the ol’ easier/ cheaper to ask forgiveness saying!


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2018)

Also, it’s not just sugar... look at all those lush greeen lawns in a place who’s soil would certainly not support a lush green lawn w/out tons of nitrogen and phosphorous dumped on it that just washes straight into the water! Same with other agribusiness practices down there, that soil might have been fertile a half century ago... no way it is now after all these years of till and plant! Then there is all the pesticide and herbice being dumped on those lawns and fields also. These kill benificial plants and organisms along with the targeted species. Maybe if the good bugs and plants were not being killed off they could help protect and clean the water too. Organic sustainable agriculture practices have proven this works! Check out Back to Eden gardening and Joel Salitan’s farm also, it works. I practice sustainable agriculture on my property at a small scale... it works. My grass only see’s water if it rains and the only fertilizer it gets is from the chickens as they graze... it works!


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## E-money (Jul 7, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> When the fines are cheaper to pay than building and maintaining a proper water treatment system then they just keep paying the fines. It’s the ol’ easier/ cheaper to ask forgiveness saying!


This could certainly be the case, but I thought that a company's "License to Operate" was at least in part maintained by environmental compliance. Seems like maybe some push needs to be directed at the EPA and DEQ divisions that are not flexing their power enough. Most likely because they can continue to issue fines to fund their own departments/programs.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2018)

E-money said:


> This could certainly be the case, but I thought that a company's "License to Operate" was at least in part maintained by environmental compliance. Seems like maybe some push needs to be directed at the EPA and DEQ divisions that are not flexing their power enough. Most likely because they can continue to issue fines to fund their own departments/programs.


Most likely, just follow the money and you’ll see the problem!


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Boatbrains said:


> Also, it’s not just sugar... look at all those lush greeen lawns in a place who’s soil would certainly not support a lush green lawn w/out tons of nitrogen and phosphorous dumped on it that just washes straight into the water! Same with other agribusiness practices down there, that soil might have been fertile a half century ago... no way it is now after all these years of till and plant! Then there is all the pesticide and herbice being dumped on those lawns and fields also. These kill benificial plants and organisms along with the targeted species. Maybe if the good bugs and plants were not being killed off they could help protect and clean the water too. Organic sustainable agriculture practices have proven this works! Check out Back to Eden gardening and Joel Salitan’s farm also, it works. I practice sustainable agriculture on my property at a small scale... it works. My grass only see’s water if it rains and the only fertilizer it gets is from the chickens as they graze... it works!


you never need to water? are you using a cistern system or rain barrels for the occasional drought periods?


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

yobata said:


> you never need to water? are you using a cistern system or rain barrels for the occasional drought periods?


I don't either. When it rains the grass comes right back. Plants are a different story.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> Also, it’s not just sugar... look at all those lush greeen lawns in a place who’s soil would certainly not support a lush green lawn w/out tons of nitrogen and phosphorous dumped on it that just washes straight into the water! Same with other agribusiness practices down there, that soil might have been fertile a half century ago... no way it is now after all these years of till and plant! Then there is all the pesticide and herbice being dumped on those lawns and fields also. These kill benificial plants and organisms along with the targeted species. Maybe if the good bugs and plants were not being killed off they could help protect and clean the water too. Organic sustainable agriculture practices have proven this works! Check out Back to Eden gardening and Joel Salitan’s farm also, it works. I practice sustainable agriculture on my property at a small scale... it works. My grass only see’s water if it rains and the only fertilizer it gets is from the chickens as they graze... it works!


Bingo.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

makin moves said:


> I don't either. When it rains the grass comes right back. Plants are a different story.


I misread his post, I also do the same for my grass, but I thought he was talking about a garden


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2018)

Yobata, I just don’t water the grass. Garden hasn’t needed water this year except when planted! I am in the process of designing a rain water catch system for my garden though. I am going to set it up as an aquaculture site that I can raise prwns or crayfish in as well as some hydroponics gardening! This will keep the water fresh and clean!


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

Boatbrains said:


> Yobata, I just don’t water the grass. Garden hasn’t needed water this year except when planted! I am in the process of designing a rain water catch system for my garden though. I am going to set it up as an aquaculture site that I can raise prwns or crayfish in as well as some hydroponics gardening! This will keep the water fresh and clean!


If you can keep your rainwater collection tanks above ground level you can use gravity and a small solar powered timer and solenoid and have an automatic yard irrigation system!


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

@E-money Personally I don't think we're spending enough attention on the water flowing *INTO *Lake O during these debates and discussions.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2018)

Fishshoot said:


> If you can keep your rainwater collection tanks above ground level you can use gravity and a small solar powered timer and solenoid and have an automatic yard irrigation system!


True, but I will not water grass. It can turn brown for all I care. If it dies, the pine needles can cover the sand. My system design uses holding ponds just above ground level “ I am high and dry here” and drip irrigation for the garden that will run off a 12 volt pump with solor charger.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

The last thing I want is for my grass to grow faster. I have roughly 3 acres that I have to mow and at the rate it's been raining that's a once a week deal.


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

St Lucie is getting 970 million gallons of contaminated water from Lake O today. More to come in the next week.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

mosquitolaGOON said:


> St Lucie is getting 970 million gallons of contaminated water from Lake O today. More to come in the next week.


Daumn! That sucks big! I understnd the “safety” aspect but it’s gotta stop!


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## Les_Lammers (Feb 17, 2007)

ShugC said:


> Army Corp of engineers Destroying our environment to save 1 person at a time. Tear down the dike. turn sugar fields into natural filters and restore the flow the correct direction. Don't tell me your saving peoples lives when your putting the entire southern part of the state at risk for permanent financial ruin. this isn't just going to affect charter captains and bait shops it will start to affect hotels, restaurants, barbers, lawyers, CPA's medical professionals, fast food workers , etc. we are all connected as tourism dies because our oceans die by our own hand we can kiss our entire economy good bye. It isn't a republican's don't care/democrats don't care its a politicians who spend millions for jobs that pay hundreds of thousands must be corrupt.





ShugC said:


> Army Corp of engineers Destroying our environment to save 1 person at a time. Tear down the dike. turn sugar fields into natural filters and restore the flow the correct direction. Don't tell me your saving peoples lives when your putting the entire southern part of the state at risk for permanent financial ruin. this isn't just going to affect charter captains and bait shops it will start to affect hotels, restaurants, barbers, lawyers, CPA's medical professionals, fast food workers , etc. we are all connected as tourism dies because our oceans die by our own hand we can kiss our entire economy good bye. It isn't a republican's don't care/democrats don't care its a politicians who spend millions for jobs that pay hundreds of thousands must be corrupt.


Google US Sugar subsidy. We are supporting an industry that cannot compete in the market. Corporate Welfare and the best politicians money can buy.

https://www.bullsugar.org/sugar_subsidies


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## Les_Lammers (Feb 17, 2007)

We need to keep those cane fields dry for an industry that cannot support itself. 2,500 sugar jobs in Florida vs. clean water.

https://www.bna.com/hershey-environmentalists-push-n57982090585/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Sugar


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

Les_Lammers said:


> We need to keep those cane fields dry for an industry that cannot support itself. 2,500 sugar jobs in Florida vs. clean water.
> 
> https://www.bna.com/hershey-environmentalists-push-n57982090585/
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Sugar


How many of those 2500 jobs are illegal and not paying taxes?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

E-money said:


> I read Backwaters first post and while that seems to explain how the bloom occurs, I cannot imagine that these "runoffs" are exempt from environmental release permitting. The local DEQ and EPA would be significantly fining these companies to tune of millions of dollars. This would not be seen as an acceptable practice by any of the companies being called out. Has all of this been verified? Is the proposed fix to shut down the companies participating or ensure these practices are amended?


Yes Millions as a whole, but even some of the biggest finds were only a few $100k. That's not even a slap on the wrist when you consider that the Phosphate industry in the state of Florida is a multi-billion dollar industry!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

E-money said:


> This could certainly be the case, but I thought that a company's "License to Operate" was at least in part maintained by environmental compliance. Seems like maybe some push needs to be directed at the EPA and DEQ divisions that are not flexing their power enough. Most likely because they can continue to issue fines to fund their own departments/programs.


Problem is, that the phosphate industry is more than a 100yr old industry. Many mines, processing plants and the leftover by-product (gypsum stacks which looks like little mountains) are left behind from operations going out of business. Then there have been buy-outs and mergers where the new companies want to buy the profit centers but don't want the liabilities of defunked mines & gyp stacks that was abandon and nobody wants to take on the liability nor the responsibility to maintain them so that the toxic lakes on top of them don't overflow. They are toxic and sometimes radioactive waste fields that nobody can ever doing anything with. So nobody wants them. The State don't really want to deal with them either. More over, there is no insurance plan or back-out clauses for a mining operation has to have in order to mine. But then if they go out of business, the state is stuck with the hazard they left us. You can say that they'll find them, but if they go out of business, who's left to be fined. Even then, the finds will not add up to the cost to clean up the spills nor to maintain them. Interesting fact tho. Big Phosphate donates lots to environment do-gooder things, as well as campaigns for Florida Politics, so people that run our lovely gov't turns a blind eye, tho it's become a looming giant! 

We had a problem with one of those abandon Gyp stack that the EPA got involved with, when we had all these hurricanes hit Florida back in 2004 and it overflowed here on the east side of Tampa Bay. So the EPA got involved with a "cleanup solution" several years later, where they pumped all that phosphate enriched toxic water from the top of one of those defunked gyp stacks, into an ocean going barge and took it about 10 miles offshore and dumped it out there,in hopes that the tides would carry it out to sea. They made multiple trips out there, continuing the dumping for several months. That was straight out the mouth of Tampa Bay. So what the dumb asses didn't calculated for is phosphate is a sediment and sank to the bottom. Then a few months later, the tides turned and started washing it back into Tampa Bay. Shortly after, Tampa Bay had the worst redtide in history where the entire bay was blanketed with floating dead fish of every kind. It was horrifying and continued for many years!  We are still seeing the effects from that and now with this new redtide coming in from the south, it's worse.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Yesterday in Sarasota!


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Maybe, just maybe... whenever the news media puts these kinds of pics up for the general public (mostly clueless...) we need to hammer the point home that the condition of lake Okeechobee is causing all kinds of problems.... from Tampa all the way down to the backcountry in the upper keys (Florida Bay...).

There just aren't enough of us (those that care about clean waters)... and we're going to need a majority of the voters in the state to get up in their elected reps business and demand that serious efforts get started on the cleanup (and that's just the starting point...).

Very sad photos - but very very good to show exactly what's happening for non-fisherman to begin to get the idea that we're in trouble...


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

yobata said:


> yeah, holding hands will solve everything


Gotta have a hashtag, too.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Capt Bob, reports of red tide are already down to Naples and still heading south. I'd hate to see it hit the 10K and the Glades (big nurseries for many species).


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

So far, knock on wood, the bad stuff hasn't come east of Marco... I think it's not divine intervention - just a function of how the currents work between the Gulf coast and the Ten K area... but if those same currents shift or the wind starts kicking out of the northwest things could change.

The way I figure it, the fact that we're okay in my area may not help us that much since anyone considering a trip down this way will only have heard "red tide, Florida" and that will be just enough to get them thinking Louisiana or any of a bunch of other alternatives. That's absolutely what happened during that oil spill a few years back. Guides everywhere in south Florida, including the Keys, saw their bookings drop off dramatically. That was true -particularly new business... folks that know you are much more likely to at least call and ask before giving up the thought of a fishing trip with someone they've chartered before...

One way or the other we'll all find out in the coming months and years if things don't change.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Yeah Bob, the coastal tourism is seriously getting affected in our area. Labor Day weekend is coming up next weekend and it's hard for businesses to count on tourist business when places like Siesta Key beaches are covered with maggots and the smell is bad enough to make someone gag. Further north, I'm 5 mins to the water and 15 mins to the island beaches, but can smell dead fish all the way to my house.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Problem is most of this noise does not go much farther than this social media crap the people who could help have simply tuned it out


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## jboriol (Jan 2, 2010)

I don’t understand the math...

Tourism dollars at risk in Florida = $109 billion annually

Sugarcane revenues = $1 billion (less than 1% of tourism revenues). 

Restore the glades estimates = $16 billion life of project / 20 years so $800 million/year invested to save $109 billion in annual revenues seems like a good investment to me!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

krash said:


> Problem is most of this noise does not go much farther than this social media crap the people who could help have simply tuned it out


You're kidding yourself. Real estate listings are pouring in and people are starting to seriously lower prices in the hopes of getting out before there is a crash or at least a crush of listings. Look out and hang on... this stuff IS getting out nationally. Unfortunately Florida has such a bad reputation for ignoring reality and science and common sense that help will likely not come from outside.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2018)

Many of those that are running scared should be and also should know they won’t be welcomed back with open arms... they are part of what made this problem and are just gonna run to somewhere else to play golf!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> Many of those that are running scared should be and also should know they won’t be welcomed back with open arms... they are part of what made this problem and are just gonna run to somewhere else to play golf!


 You are so right! But please remember Florida has hung a huge flag that says bring your money here and we will not tax you or ask you to support our poor, our kids our elderly our law enforcement our schools our social services, hospitals, our roads or our CLEAN AND SAFE ENVIRONMENT. They have offered themselves as a tax sanctuary to people who are willing to leave the places that helped and allowed them to make large amounts of money, put their children through high quality schools and walk away from future generations (in their own communities) attempting to do the same. I have said it here before....Florida is a ponzi scheme( that favors the rich and selfish and the greedy) and the people who have lived in Florida for generations are the chumps...the losers...the folks that pay.

Vote......you may not who to vote for but you know who to vote against!


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2018)

I blame it all on that damn mouse!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> I blame it all on that damn mouse!


I assume you are referring to Micky. A few years ago we were traveling north from the keys via lake O, when we started to see " keep right"signs for Disney. We passed dozens of signs saying keep right but held a strong left each time. Eventually we found ourselves in bumper to bumper traffic heading straight at the gates. At the last minute we took the final exit to the left which lead us to a brutal( and seemingly never ending) trip past the "magic" sewage treatment plant....So much magic in a single place can not be good.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Just saw a post on FB, the death has spread to Naples. There was a fellow down on Seagate beach giving an report, dead fish up and down the beach.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

The terrible red tides have extended all the way south to Marco Island (both inshore and a bit offshore) for weeks now. Go to myfwc.com and look up the most recent red tide report (they do two weekly and anyone can sign up and have the reports come as an email automatically... 


As already noted the red tides don't seem to have made it east of Marco Island at all...


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Boatbrains said:


> I blame it all on that damn mouse!


Walt Disney deserves a special place in Hell.


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## Bill Payne (May 22, 2018)

lemaymiami said:


> I've seen signs that the CCA is beginning to take up this fight - but remember their focus has always been on fishery rules and the legislature -where they've gotten a lot done (I can remember when we got nowhere with any reasonable proposal -over and over again back in the seventies... -that was one of the main drivers for the net ban amendment). Things are a lot different now. Over the years I've not only donated trips for auction to the CCA - I've donated in three different states - and also rounded up other local guides down here in south Florida to do the same year after year (but not recently...). We've all got to play a part.
> 
> I am looking forward to them stepping up, though. The outfit that I'm getting behind is Captains for Clean Waters and I think they're well worth everyone's support...


I have been looking for a group that was legitimately looking out for the coastal water quality. After reading about this group's goals on their website it looks like they are a good cause to support, my membership stickers and hat are on the way, thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

lemaymiami said:


> Maybe, just maybe... whenever the news media puts these kinds of pics up for the general public (mostly clueless...) we need to hammer the point home that the condition of lake Okeechobee is causing all kinds of problems.... from Tampa all the way down to the backcountry in the upper keys (Florida Bay...).


Especially since the media continues to report that red tides (which this is not) occur naturally and have always been there.


----------



## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Vote tomorrow... I'm registered Independent so don;t vote in primaries, but if I did I think right now Gramm would get my vote...


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

They'll get what they want?

https://www.winknews.com/2018/08/27...erns-over-potential-mine-in-charlotte-county/


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

I saw a report on fox business this am where the expert speaking about the red tide algea issue was saying air born dust coming from africa contains nitrogen that is feeding the algea ,not much could be done in his opinion.As such, didnt think it would be a problem next year


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

FlyBy said:


> Especially since the media continues to report that red tides (which this is not) occur naturally and have always been there.


Red tides do occur naturally. That's documented fact.

What we have going on now are two issues...1) Lake O discharges and 2) red tide...which are being conflated and compounded. Basically...a double whammy...


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## FlyBy (Jul 12, 2013)

crboggs said:


> Red tides do occur naturally. That's documented fact.


Of course. My point was that the media is promulgating the idea that there is nothing unusual about the current situation, that it is the same as it ever was.


----------



## jboriol (Jan 2, 2010)

Disturbing video but sums it up nicely...
Toxic Lake: The Untold Story of Lake Okeechobee


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## State fish rob (Jan 25, 2017)

How did the govenors election work out for you florida guys ? I have an aunt in clewiston. Paying close attention in nc. We are 30 years behind y all in getting in front of this. Ck out the book “ and the waters turned to blood” by rodney barker.


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## wadeleebenton (Apr 8, 2009)

Good article of the failure of Bullsugar endorsed candidates in the election. We need to figure out a better way to fight this battle. 

http://floridapolitics.com/archives...in-the-way-clean-water-activist-groups-wanted


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

State fish rob said:


> I saw a report on fox business this am where the expert speaking about the red tide algea issue was saying air born dust coming from africa contains nitrogen that is feeding the algea ,not much could be done in his opinion.As such, didnt think it would be a problem next year


Florida Sea Grant Director Karl Havens on the Algae- 
https://video.foxbusiness.com/v/5827843338001/?#sp=show-clips


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

EdK13 said:


> Florida Sea Grant Director Karl Havens on the Algae-
> https://video.foxbusiness.com/v/5827843338001/?#sp=show-clips


Nice job of blaming South America and Africa for the problems. Typical Fox News blaming it on brown people.....


----------



## Guest (Aug 30, 2018)

Ben said:


> Nice job of blaming South America and Africa for the problems. Typical Fox News blaming it on brown people.....


Smoke and mirrors! As if we aren’t putting enough nitrogen in the water to feed the algae!


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Ben said:


> Nice job of blaming South America and Africa for the problems. *Typical Fox News blaming it on brown people.....*


*lol* Are you f'ing kidding me? 

NASA hypothesized this back in 2001:
https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast30aug_1/

By your logic I guess they also gave "brown people" credit for Florida's " beautiful red Florida sunsets".

If some people can't play the victim card, they can't play anything at all these days...


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## Dpreston (Oct 16, 2015)

wadeleebenton said:


> Good article of the failure of Bullsugar endorsed candidates in the election. We need to figure out a better way to fight this battle.
> 
> http://floridapolitics.com/archives...in-the-way-clean-water-activist-groups-wanted


Peter Schorsch is paid by the sugar industry to write that crap. Keep reading and spreading it if you want, but do some homework. Notice he didn’t mention Putnam crashing and burning. Or any of the many clean water candidates that were endorsed or recommended that won. He’s cherry picking around a narrative.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

@Dpreston ... But who pays the bills for Bullsugar? You guys focus alot on who is funding who and who is buying who. But you're a 501(c)(4) right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)_organization#501(c)(4)
_*501(c)(4) organizations are not required to disclose their donors publicly.*[65] The lack of disclosure has led to extensive use of the 501(c)(4) provisions for organizations that are actively involved in lobbying, and has become controversial.[66][67] Criticized as "dark money", spending from these organizations on political TV ads has exceeded spending from Super PACs.[68][69] *Spending by organizations that do not disclose their donors has increased from less than $5.2 million in 2006 to well over $300 million in the 2012 election.*[70]_

According to _The Washington Post_:[52]
_*These groups are allowed to participate in politics, so long as politics do not become their primary focus. *What that means in practice is that they must spend less than 50 percent of their money on politics. So long as they don't run afoul of that threshold, the groups can influence elections, which they typically do through advertising._


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

When you can’t expose your radical ideas of man in little girls rooms, massive taxation, support of illegal aliens murdering American college girls, etc you have to invent racism. It’s all you have.


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## Dpreston (Oct 16, 2015)

Chris, as you correctly point out, a non-profit in FL has to be a 501(c)4 to be involved in political activities. Most non-profits are 501(c)3’s which are great for education and advocacy but don’t have much impact around elections. It’s relatively easy to fund raise for 501(c)3’s because donations are tax deductible for donors. Also 501(c)3’a are required to release their donation records. Donations to 501(c)4’s are NOT tax deductible, which makes funds more difficult to raise. 501(c)4’s are NOT required to release their donation records. Bullsugar.org is a 501(c)4, so donor lists are not publicly available, but we have listed some of our largest contributors on the front page of bullsugar.org, which I have linked you to in multiple occasions in the past. Not sure why you are so concerned with exactly where every dollar comes from. Much of the org’s funding comes from membership, which is $60/year and comes with a free Patagonia member hat (Patagonia provided us with a $25,000 grant the last two years). Hope you consider joining. Most of the board members - myself included - are fisherman who share the goals of probably the vast majority of this site. I promise you there is no hidden agenda or alterior motive, but ultimately you will have to decide that for yourself.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Red tide-red-red-communism-communism-former soviet union-ussr-Russia...Russians did the red tide. They hacked our water.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

Ben said:


> Nice job of blaming South America and Africa for the problems. Typical Fox News blaming it on brown people.....


Midwit.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

jboriol said:


> I don’t understand the math...
> 
> Tourism dollars at risk in Florida = $109 billion annually
> 
> ...


You're forgetting about Big Phosphate (Mosaic and all the others) that is the other root cause of the algae bloom.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

jboriol said:


> Disturbing video but sums it up nicely...
> Toxic Lake: The Untold Story of Lake Okeechobee


Good story. But me thinks it may have been quietly funded by *Big Phosphate* where the finger is being pointed on everything else but them. Again, another example where nobody talks about the phosphate and who mines and creates it here in Florida. Their careless handling of their toxic byproduct from the mining and processing of phosphate and the lack of containment and responsibility also unleashes the most damaging environment spills and disasters Florida has seen. Yet people turn a blind eye to it out of ignorance, when in fact, it's the shit that is causing the most damage!


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

And did you see Mosaic is appealing the denial of their 18,000 acre mine in Charlotte county??
http://www.winknews.com/2018/08/27/...erns-over-potential-mine-in-charlotte-county/


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

And BIG DISNEY, BIG POPULATION GROWTH, BIG CONSTRUCTION. Adding the word big seems to demonize what is otherwise just another business that does whatever it has to, to grow. The only big thats to blame here, is BIG government. We set up all these agencies at the Federal and state level to prevent the very things that are happening. And when they fail, which they always do, the answer is always the same. MORE of them. More funding, more resources, more people. But the appetite for our liberty is insatiable. And it all starts again. They need to steal more and get bigger. And we all forget the results they promised when they sold us on why they needed to exist. The truth is, none of these agencies gives a F about any of this. The people at the ground level might. But the leadership exists to get politicians elected and to create protections for their donors. Nothing more.


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## Dpreston (Oct 16, 2015)

Lots of contrarians here who like to throw stones in all directions - but we should all ask ourselves what we are doing in support of solutions to our water issues - whether it’s suporting an organization we trust (doesn’t matter which one- pick the one you believe is doing the most in your best interests), supporting a good politician (there are finally some), or helping educate the public on real solutions (it’s not as complicated as some would like for us to think). It’s easy to throw stones, not as easy to be part of a proactive solution. Toxic Lake happens to be a great documentary produced by the Weather Channel - the producer Kate Parker has won multiple awards for it. Pretty sure mosaic did not play a role in its production - but yes, we should question every narrative/motive in this state, especially around our water quality issues. There is so much money and power at stake, and so much false information and deflection out there. Btw Toxic Puzzle is another great documentary on the health effects of blue-green algae/Cyanobacteria. Don’t expect the FL DEP or health department to be screening it anytime soon.


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## fishicaltherapist (Mar 9, 2013)

Fertilizer/phosphates, sewage cause MOST of the problem North of Big O....Big Sugar causes MOST of the problem South of Big O, BUT, the BIGGEST problem is our DO NOTHING politicians......I don't give a flyin' firk what PARTY is involved. $$$$$$ have controlled it ALL.


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

Last night on national news candidate for governor Andrew Gillum discussed the importance of addressing Red Tide and pollution from Lake Okeechobee.


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

7WT said:


> Last night on national news candidate for governor Andrew Gillum discussed the importance of addressing Red Tide and pollution from Lake Okeechobee.


Before or after the big check from billionaire George Soros, his call to ban guns, or his plan to introduce a state income tax?


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Dpreston said:


> Not sure why you are so concerned with exactly where every dollar comes from.


The entire premise of your group and its name is call out politicians who take money from Big Sugar. I'm sorry, but it feels a little hypocritical when you call out people for their sources of funding while not being truly transparent yourselves. Just because you pick and choose some donors to list on your front page and drop names like Patagonia doesn't mean you're living up to the same standard you are demanding from others...

I wish you guys were truly non-partisan and transparent. I'd much rather get on board as a passionate supporter than the alternative.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

7WT said:


> Last night on national news candidate for governor Andrew Gillum discussed the importance of addressing Red Tide and pollution from Lake Okeechobee.


Of course he did. They ALL will. And that's why you have to look deeper than a single issue promise from these folks as they pander their way across the state over the next few months.


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## Dpreston (Oct 16, 2015)

Chris, sorry you feel that way. Not sure why you are holding a nonprofit to the exact same standards as an elected official. It’s not the same thing, the laws are not the same. We were not elected by the voting public, we don’t make decisions for you or spend your money, and you don’t have to support us. You can’t even imagine how hard it is to keep the lights on and do things like the voter guides in the first place-especially being a C4 where donations are not tax-deductible. On top of that now because Chris from the microskiff message board demands to know where every single dollar is coming from we need to disclose all supporters names and information publicly and make it even harder to keep the organization going and grow it? Would love your support - we need every ounce of support we can get. But by all means, keep sharing things like attack pieces written in bought newspapers by bought ‘reporters’, that quote guys like Matt Caldwell. Have you checked his fundraising records lately? He doesn’t eat breakfast without US Sugar’s permission.


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## Dpreston (Oct 16, 2015)

https://www.bullsugar.org/florida_voted_water


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## Pierson (Mar 16, 2016)

Just got this email today......

FWC makes snook, redfish temporarily catch-and-release only in areas affected by red tide

The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) has temporarily made snook and redfish catch-and-release only from the northernmost point of Anna Maria Island in Manatee County to Gordon Pass in Collier County. This was done through an Executive Order in response to the naturally-occurring red tide bloom in southwest Florida and is in effect until the next FWC Commission meeting, which starts Sept. 26.

“I support Executive Director Eric Sutton’s decision to implement the Executive Order as we continue to manage this world-class fishery for future generations,” said FWC Chairman Bo Rivard. “We will continue working with our partners and will evaluate next steps at our Commission meeting the end of September.”

Sutton has spent significant time in the areas most impacted by naturally-occurring red tide. He and staff will continue to work with local communities and partners as the FWC manages this issue to ensure recovery of the fisheries.

“We’ve seen the devastation to the redfish and snook populations in southwest Florida, and we support the catch-and-release initiative taken by FWC,” said Brian Gorski, Executive Director of Coastal Conservation Association Florida. “In working with the FWC on this initiative, we’ve heard support from members and guides throughout the state who also understand the need for such a change, to ensure that generations to come can enjoy the thrill of catching one of these iconic species.”

The FWC thanks Gov. Rick Scott for his continual leadership and proactive response during this time. FWC staff will continue working with partners moving forward, including local governments and stakeholders.

Regulations outside of those counties remain unchanged, including the Sept. 1 snook season opening that occurs in other Gulf and Atlantic state waters.

For more information, visit MyFWC.com and click on "About," then "Executive Orders," or click


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## Dpreston (Oct 16, 2015)

I saw this on FB this AM and posted this in response: 

"....to ensure that generations to come can enjoy the thrill of catching one of these iconic species.” Well that would mean that this wasn't just a reactive band-aid, and it isn't going to keep happening unless we fix it by stopping the toxic discharges east and west, and sending clean water south. What is CCA doing to help FIX OUR STATE'S BROKEN PLUMBING, Brian Gorski? Shame on CCA for actively working AGAINST projects and policy (SB10) that could have helped us fix this for future generations. You should be hiding under a rock, Brian Gorski/CCA/Adam Putnam fanboys. Thanks for nothing, but good for you for preserving your relationship with the state. Was it worth it? This is a state-sponsored "natural" disaster, and now the state is trying to say they are actively helping here by making our decimated fisheries catch and release? If there are no fish left, there is nothing to catch OR release.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Pierson said:


> Just got this email today......
> 
> FWC makes snook, redfish temporarily catch-and-release only in areas affected by red tide
> 
> ...


Makes you think: who are these people that are INTERESTED in eating fish in areas affected by the red tides.


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## Pierson (Mar 16, 2016)

yobata said:


> Makes you think: who are these people that are INTERESTED in eating fish in areas affected by the red tides.


Yeah good point. I caught a slot snook in Stuart last year with the toxic green sludge still clinging to the mangroves. Needless to say she was happily released


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

Yes I am. My sarcasm might be too heavy for some I guess. But seriously, the discharges from Lake O are why this shits been so bad here. Almost 1 year straight with it in Lee county waters. The South American deforestation and African dust is a weak deflection of the problem at best. 




crboggs said:


> *lol* Are you f'ing kidding me?
> 
> NASA hypothesized this back in 2001:
> https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast30aug_1/
> ...


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

EdK13 said:


> Midwit.


Not entirely


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Ben said:


> Yes I am. My sarcasm might be too heavy for some I guess.


Sarcasm my ass. You're straight up throwing down the "brown people" race card to discredit a Fox News report that is based in science spanning back years. Who is the science denier now eh?


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Dpreston said:


> Shame on CCA


On this we agree...my last membership form went back to them with #NowOrNeverGlades scrawled across the page in big block letters...and no check...


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## K3anderson (Jan 23, 2013)

That article is from 2001. NASA did the study. Please post the results of your peer reviewed study.


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## Dpreston (Oct 16, 2015)

Chris, that is the best thing I have heard all day - would have paid to see the look on whoever's face opened that envelope. I grew up with a CCA redfish sticker on my bedroom door...what a disappointment. Hope it was worth all the members they lost just to support a guy - Putnam - who (deservedly) got his ass handed to him over the exact issue we were fighting for, the issue they should have been fighting alongside us. That one's gotta sting.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

C


Ben said:


> Not entirely


HA. Casual suggestion accepted. Whale At-least Gillum is gonna attack the Red Tide, ironically.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

No way he gets elected. Unless the Russians intervene.......


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

Operation Red Velvet Chocolate Cake


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2018)

Ben said:


> Operation Red Velvet Chocolate Cake


Damn you, I’m fat enough!


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2018)

And weak!


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## Fishtex (May 10, 2014)

I posted this in “Environment” 

Good article on the water issues of South Florida:

Miami will be underwater soon. Its drinking water could go first - Bloomberg Businessweekhttps://apple.news/A2TfDMsRrRN2WNvHzkmmU6w


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## Cam (Apr 5, 2017)

Ben said:


> No way he gets elected. Unless the Russians intervene.......


Some demographics in Florida have shifted in the last few months in part due to the PR disaster. Add in that the typical strong Republican voter block in SWFL are pissed over the water issues and an upset can happen. It isn't like Florida is a solid red state to begin with. Most of my republican friends are voting pro-water and most of them went Trump last time.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

K3anderson said:


> And BIG DISNEY, BIG POPULATION GROWTH, BIG CONSTRUCTION. Adding the word big seems to demonize what is otherwise just another business that does whatever it has to, to grow.


The word "Big" is to identify the industry, especially the top companies, without naming the names of the companies, but calling the group as a whole. Trust me when I say they will out last the politicians, which come and go. That's why nothing get's done because they are either paid off or by the time they build a case against them, those politicians will be replaced by whomever won the next race. So it starts over or something else distracts them. The deal "Buy the Land" was started 4 gens of politicians ago.

To say that the phosphate industry does whatever it takes to grow, is an under statement. They walk all over people, politicians and the EPA, the environment and our ecology to further their future by attrition. Mosiac is running environment do-gooder ad campaigns all over the media to help hide the fact that they recently caused a giant sinkhole in Mulberry and contaminated the underground aquifers with phosphate, sulfric acid and radioactive by-product that leads to areas from all the small towns off of 17, to the south west from Riverview, all the way south to Sarasota. Unfortunately, no one in these areas really knows what is in our drinking water now.











Ha! This little "Bird Santuary" is a buffer so you can't see the processing plant and the leakage that goes back into Tampa Bay!











Makes me want to gag!!!


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

Mosaic is the Grim Reaper for Florida


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Cam said:


> Most of my republican friends are voting pro-water and most of them went Trump last time.


Voting pro-water is one thing in the primaries, but the general will be a different animal.

In the case of DeSantis vs Gillum, even Bullsugar didn't draw a distinction between them in their voting guides, "favoring" both. I'll be very curious to see their general election voting guide...since DeSantis and the Sugar families have no love lost between them...


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Gillum has no hope of winning in FL unless he nixes that state income tax talk.


----------



## Guest (Aug 31, 2018)

SomaliPirate said:


> Gillum has no hope of winning in FL unless he nixes that state income tax talk.


And stops talkin gun control crap!


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

He's about as left as they come for Florida. Graham could have swayed a few middle of the road conservatives with her family name alone.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

SomaliPirate said:


> Gillum has no hope of winning in FL unless he nixes that state income tax talk.


I dunno man...a couple hundred thousand more voters from Puerto Rico could be a wild card voting block. Tampa, Orlando, and Miami are going blue and are very dense population wise.

Urban voters want free shit and big government to take care of them.

Gillum will pitch an increase in corporate taxes before he'll pitch an real state tax...IMHO...


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Ben said:


> He's about as left as they come for Florida. Graham could have swayed a few middle of the road conservatives with her family name alone.


Exactly. Seems like democrats (both sides actually) have moved to extremes. This guy can't win a general election, but I bet Graham could have. That's why I think that, barring anything unforeseen, Trump will win again in 2020. The Dems have been just too far left to resonate with joe average. If they could find and nominate somebody like old school Bill Clinton, I think he would trounce Trump.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

crboggs said:


> I dunno man...a couple hundred thousand more voters from Puerto Rico could be a wild card voting block. Tampa, Orlando, and Miami are going blue and are very dense population wise.
> 
> Urban voters want free shit and big government to take care of them.
> 
> Gillum will pitch an increase in corporate taxes before he'll pitch an real state tax...IMHO...


Very good points.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

SomaliPirate said:


> Gillum has no hope of winning in FL unless he nixes that state income tax talk.


The income tax thing needs to be far better explained to working people. Right now working folks and especially those raising families are being taken to the cleaner while the wealthy/carpetbaggers are getting a near free ride. Funding a state via sales taxes is so regressive. Amazing the sales job that has been done on working people in FL. they actually think they are coming out well.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

How are "working families" being "taken to the cleaner" if neither they nor the "wealthy" are paying state taxes?

I assume your hypothesis is that the poor get soaked by high sales tax here?

Lets compare sales tax in Georgia (has a state income tax) and Florida (no state income tax). Full disclosure, I moved from GA back to FL back in 2011. Wife and I were both born in this state.

http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/sales-tax-by-state

The Georgia state sales tax rate is *4%*, and the average GA sales tax after local surtaxes is *6.96%*. The maximum is capped 8%.

The Florida state sales tax rate is *6%*, and the average FL sales tax after local surtaxes is *6.65%*. The maximum is capped at 7.5%

So...Floridians have a better deal than Georgians even before you factor in the state income tax that we don't have to pay. And on top of that...our max sales tax is lower in a worst case scenario.

Tourism dollars are the key for us...sales taxes, hotel taxes, resort taxes, etc. We soak them for every penny when they visit. And I'm ok with that...


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

they are soaking working people by taxing everything including food, clothing and medical services which most states with a state income tax exempt. Food and clothing alone is a major expense for working people and the addition of 6-8% tax means that many probably pay more tax than they would with a state income tax. Conversely a 6-8% tax on food and clothing for the wealthy is a drop in the bucket compared to what they would pay in income taxes. Face it the no income tax thing is aimed squarely at attracting wealthy retirees and they come in droves to avoid helping provide the same services they enjoyed in their working years in their home states. Florida is rated the #1 tax state for retirees for good reason. I have never seen it rated as the #1 tax state for working people. Somebody is picking up the tab.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2018)

The only food I am aware that gets taxed is prepared food. My animal feed isn’t taxed, the groceries I purchase aren’t taxed, now if you are talking cooked chickens, soda pops, and things that are sitting next to the checkout then I don’t consider that food but rather a luxury item of want and convenience.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Like I said...just moved down from Georgia within the last decade. We're upper middle class since we're both working professionals. But I remember paying sales taxes in Georgia. 

But you raise a good point...so lets see what's exempt in GA and FL using the same states for comparison:

*Georgia*
https://www.salestaxhandbook.com/georgia/sales-tax-exemptions
There are some staple goods with reduced taxes...(not sure of local surtaxes still apply)
Clothing, prepared food, RX drugs, and OTC drugs at 4%
Groceries at 3%

*Florida*
https://www.salestaxhandbook.com/florida/sales-tax-exemptions
Interesting...(again not sure if local surtaxes still apply)
Prepared Food 9%
Clothing and OTC drugs 6%
_Groceries and RX drugs Exempt_

The 9% on prepared foods is soaking tourists at restaurants and hotels. Its high, but noone forces anyone to eat out alot. So its more of a luxury / consumption tax if you ask me. You have a point on the clothing and OTC drugs. There are a couple of percentage points difference. I would argue that its not enough to negate the lack of state income tax. But then look at the exempt status for groceries and RX drugs in FL. A significant advantage in FL over GA in that area for retirees AND lower income families. 

It looks to me like families in FL still come out ahead of GA...all things considered.


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## Cam (Apr 5, 2017)

Keep in mind Florida has some hefty property taxes. Rich people buying homes down here pay their way on homes, boats, etc. The no state income tax doesn't really help retirees that much but it does help those working towards retirement immensely particularly on capital gains. 

The other reason Florida is a great place to live is that primary residences have the strongest homestead protection in the country. Only $21,500 of a primary residence was protected when I lived in Georgia. In Florida, all of a primary residence is protected regardless of its value.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

Cam said:


> Keep in mind Florida has some hefty property taxes. Rich people buying homes down here pay their way on homes, boats, etc. The no state income tax doesn't really help retirees that much but it does help those working towards retirement immensely particularly on capital gains.
> 
> The other reason Florida is a great place to live is that primary residences have the strongest homestead protection in the country. Only $21,500 of a primary residence was protected when I lived in Georgia. In Florida, all of a primary residence is protected regardless of its value.


I can concur. Even when my Sav house was my primary residency, I still got raped on property taxes. Now that it's a rental, it's even worse.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

camp said:


> The income tax thing needs to be far better explained to working people. Right now working folks and especially those raising families are being taken to the cleaner while the wealthy/carpetbaggers are getting a near free ride. Funding a state via sales taxes is so regressive. Amazing the sales job that has been done on working people in FL. they actually think they are coming out well.


My wife and I both work and contribute to the economy here. The minute an income tax is passed in this state, we will be on the first plane to WY and take our income with us, as it's pretty portable. They can tax that.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

SomaliPirate said:


> My wife and I both work and contribute to the economy here. The minute an income tax is passed in this state, we will be on the first plane to WY and take our income with us, as it's pretty portable. They can tax that.


Just in - Soros guy is up on Adelson dude: 48 - 43.


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## trekker (Sep 19, 2015)

State fish rob said:


> I saw a report on fox business this am where the expert speaking about the red tide algea issue was saying air born dust coming from africa contains nitrogen that is feeding the algea ,not much could be done in his opinion.As such, didnt think it would be a problem next year


So according to Faux News' guest expert, it's African dust causung the problem ?

Classic.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

trekker said:


> So according to Faux News' guest expert, it's African dust causung the problem ?
> 
> Classic.


Nah- just a liberal UF PHD that hands out 20 million per in grants to liberals sharing a liberal hypothesis.

That he got on side two of the coin that is controlled media- that's the classic .... Liberalism. 
Its just more appealing to a certain segment of the sheep that the .gov wolves subsist on.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

SomaliPirate said:


> My wife and I both work and contribute to the economy here. The minute an income tax is passed in this state, we will be on the first plane to WY and take our income with us, as it's pretty portable. They can tax that.


Yeah...but on November 15th( when it gets cold) your going to be on a plane back. Look I don't know you but I do know that Florida is full of people who are living very hard and sad lives and another group of people living large or even larger than large who just don't care. I am a snow income tax is passed in this state, we will be on the first plane to WY and take our income with us, as it's pretty portable. They can tax that.[/QUOTE]


EdK13 said:


> Nah- just a liberal UF PHD that hands out 20 million per in grants to liberals sharing a liberal hypothesis.
> 
> That he got on side two of the coin that is controlled media- that's the classic .... Liberalism.
> Its just more appealing to a certain segment of the sheep that the .gov wolves subsist on.


 WOW! your English is getting so much better...you should celebrate with a big bowl of borscht.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

camp said:


> Yeah...but on November 15th( when it gets cold) your going to be on a plane back. Look I don't know you but I do know that Florida is full of people who are living very hard and sad lives and another group of people living large or even larger than large who just don't care. I am a snow income tax is passed in this state, we will be on the first plane to WY and take our income with us, as it's pretty portable. They can tax that.


 WOW! your English is getting so much better...you should celebrate with a big bowl of borscht.[/QUOTE]



omg "I'm a snow income tax is passed in this state" sort of guy...maybe a shot or two of vodka will clear your head.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

camp said:


> Yeah...but on November 15th( when it gets cold) your going to be on a plane back. Look I don't know you but I do know that Florida is full of people who are living very hard and sad lives and another group of people living large or even larger than large who just don't care. I am a snow income tax is passed in this state, we will be on the first plane to WY and take our income with us, as it's pretty portable. They can tax that.


 WOW! your English is getting so much better...you should celebrate with a big bowl of borscht.[/QUOTE]

Roger that Camp IQ- alpha mike foxtrotsky.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

camp said:


> Yeah...but on November 15th( when it gets cold) your going to be on a plane back. Look I don't know you but I do know that Florida is full of people who are living very hard and sad lives and another group of people living large or even larger than large who just don't care. I am a snow income tax is passed in this state, we will be on the first plane to WY and take our income with us, as it's pretty portable. They can tax that.


 WOW! your English is getting so much better...you should celebrate with a big bowl of borscht.[/QUOTE]
I'm one of the ones who doesn't care.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

SomaliPirate said:


> WOW! your English is getting so much better...you should celebrate with a big bowl of borscht.


I'm one of the ones who doesn't care.[/QUOTE]
Let me amend this. It was pre-coffee and I was feeling snarky. I'm 40 years old and have worked a job since I was 15. I've been sent to those sh*thole countries we hear about and been shot at while earning a check. I've been cold, tired and hungry while earning a check. Later when I came back, I earned a check trying to protect and serve some of those struggling individuals you mentioned. I was generally treated with disdain and scorn. I've had my ass kicked (physically) on the job and had many sleepless nights and seen things that no person should ever have to see just to earn that check. I'm now finally in a place where I'm doing ok, and quite frankly if it doesn't benefit me or mine, I don't want to pay for it. Maybe that makes me heartless or an asshole, or whatever but it is what it is.


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## Cam (Apr 5, 2017)

camp said:


> Yeah...but on November 15th( when it gets cold) your going to be on a plane back. Look I don't know you but I do know that Florida is full of people who are living very hard and sad lives and another group of people living large or even larger than large who just don't care.


You just described just about half the states in the country. A person can claim primary residence in another state and still spend winters in Florida. Besides the upper class Florida snowbirds aren't the problem. The problem is the ultra rich that use offshore accounts in Asia and the like. Squaking about pennies when we should be watching the dollars.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Or getting back to the red tide problem maybe? A state tax would just be more money stolen from us.


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## makin moves (Mar 20, 2010)

We can try to slow the decline but as sad as it is its true.


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## Cam (Apr 5, 2017)

Backcountry 16 said:


> Or getting back to the red tide problem maybe? A state tax would just be more money stolen from us.


Some recent historical context: 

"Calling the deal too costly with too little benefit, the South Florida Water Management District board on Thursday effectively canned a 2010 deal to buy 46,800 acres of U.S. Sugar land that it once considered critical to restoring the Everglades and coastal estuaries." - April 2015

This was all under Rick Scott and his appointees. After this last gov election, I am not sure Crist could have reinstated the buyback but he sure would have tried. Had it not been for the mid-2k crash, Crist was set to buy 180k acres under his administration. Sadly now we have to choose between Scott and Nelson... ughhhh... both those guys need to go away.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Here is a good video


Cam said:


> Some recent historical context:
> 
> "Calling the deal too costly with too little benefit, the South Florida Water Management District board on Thursday effectively canned a 2010 deal to buy 46,800 acres of U.S. Sugar land that it once considered critical to restoring the Everglades and coastal estuaries." - April 2015
> 
> This was all under Rick Scott and his appointees. After this last gov election, I am not sure Crist could have reinstated the buyback but he sure would have tried. Had it not been for the mid-2k crash, Crist was set to buy 180k acres under his administration. Sadly now we have to choose between Scott and Nelson... ughhhh... both those guys need to go away.


Agreed we have to elect skeletor who sucks and the crypt keeper who hasn't done anything of value in his 40 plus years of non service to us. As South Park says your choice is a giant douche or a shit sandwich.


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## 994 (Apr 14, 2008)

Backcountry 16 said:


> Here is a good video
> 
> Agreed we have to elect skeletor who sucks and the crypt keeper who hasn't done anything of value in his 40 plus years of non service to us. As South Park says your choice is a giant douche or a shit sandwich.


Saying they are both the same with regards to water quality is just wrong. They are not the same, and Scott is BY FAR worse than Nelson. Scott is the Governor with far more power with regards of what could have been done over the last 7 years. Scott has a record of fraud has filled the boards of FWC and the Water Management Districts with builders, developers, and lawyers. Some of whom have proven to be crooks like Scott himself. Everything he does is beneficial in someway to his buddies or his “blind trust” (do some research about that little doozie) that’s ran by his lawyer friend. He still a fraud and stealing your money. 

Nelson isn’t squeaky clean himself, and term limits are another argument, but we shouldn’t act like he is nearly as bad as Scott.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

mosquitolaGOON said:


> Saying they are both the same with regards to water quality is just wrong. They are not the same, and Scott is BY FAR worse than Nelson. Scott is the Governor with far more power with regards of what could have been done over the last 7 years. Scott has a record of fraud has filled the boards of FWC and the Water Management Districts with builders, developers, and lawyers. Some of whom have proven to be crooks like Scott himself. Everything he does is beneficial in someway to his buddies or his “blind trust” (do some research about that little doozie) that’s ran by his lawyer friend. He still a fraud and stealing your money.
> 
> Nelson isn’t squeaky clean himself, and term limits are another argument, but we shouldn’t act like he is nearly as bad as Scott.


I think they're both garbage what has Nelson done for us in 40 years service? They both need to be out of office time for some change I am personally voting for myself as should everyone else because thatst the only way anything would ever get fixed around this state.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

Aren't there 2 independents on the ballot?


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## flatzcrazy (Feb 5, 2013)

Been hearing rumors about a school of the real big breeder reds belly up out by Egmont! Can anybody confirm this?


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

Keep the focus hereon Red Tide and Blue Algae.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

SomaliPirate said:


> WOW! your English is getting so much better...you should celebrate with a big bowl of borscht.


I'm one of the ones who doesn't care.[/QUOTE]


SomaliPirate said:


> I'm one of the ones who doesn't care.


Let me amend this. It was pre-coffee and I was feeling snarky. I'm 40 years old and have worked a job since I was 15. I've been sent to those sh*thole countries we hear about and been shot at while earning a check. I've been cold, tired and hungry while earning a check. Later when I came back, I earned a check trying to protect and serve some of those struggling individuals you mentioned. I was generally treated with disdain and scorn. I've had my ass kicked (physically) on the job and had many sleepless nights and seen things that no person should ever have to see just to earn that check. I'm now finally in a place where I'm doing ok, and quite frankly if it doesn't benefit me or mine, I don't want to pay for it. Maybe that makes me heartless or an asshole, or whatever but it is what it is.[/QUOTE]

OK ...First ..SP, only part of what you read I wrote. The incoherent stuff..was not me. This space is not safe. ..anyway I honor your service to this country. I honor those who serve a cause higher than themselves in all endeavors. I honor John McCain today. 
i am probably older than you and have broader appreciation of the concept of "those who serve" than you. There are hundreds of thousands of people who sacrifice daily in their efforts to provide for the sick, the poor , the old, the mentally ill, the addicted and the abused...and they do not have the veterans administration(or anyone else) behind them. they are daily treated with disdain and scorn and forced to see things that no person should have to see. Most of them do not have any pension or health plan to fall back on. I guarantee you that every single one of them has had their asses kicked(often) and many sleepless nights. ...I don't want to be snarky with you either. I simply want the healthy and wealthy in this country to be as good to America as America has been to them. This is not the case today, not even close. and and I will not stand silent. I will not stand down. I will do my part ....and I will pay for it.


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

http://www.winknews.com/2018/09/03/algae-bests-felon-who-tried-to-swim-away-from-officers/


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Just got back from Disney and can't deny I'm a little disappointed @camp had no thoughts on the taxation specifics I posted. I guess they don't fit the narrative. Not surprising...

That said...in an effort to stray back on topic...I couldn't help but wonder how much Orlando and Disney contribute to the quality of water that ultimately reaches Lake O as it flows south. How have they been left out of the conversation to this point?


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Wonder how far North the red tide will spread as tropical storm Gordon moves NW out into the Gulf. As the center of circulation progresses it will be pushing winds out of the SW and S along the Gulf coast.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

That storm will probably do quite a bit to end those terrible red tides for now (just like you can blow the foam off of the top of a cup of coffee...) but that's only speculation on my part. Heavy flushing action from stormwater run-off combined with wind should really shake things up (and in the process mess up the fishing for a week or so...). Maybe the coastal areas will benefit (until next year when the conditions get right for red tides again...).

Back to our topic... The way I see it, our real problem (after we remember that it took more than 80 years of bad decisions - many done without much idea of what the actual results would be...) is getting whoever is running our state (please - not that nice new socialist guy...) to not only recognize the problems but actually get motivated to do something about it... Most in government are well aware of the problems -but they're much more focused on doing things that benefit them (and their party - whoever that is...). Remember, we're asking for a big commitment, tons of money, and government that will actually work towards cleaning up and maintaining our waters for the future... Not an easy task -even with all the stars lining up just right.... Remember as well that in the past quite a few promising projects ended up in court where some of them still are - to this day...


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

it seems the real problem with some of the members in this thread and one in particular is a strong hatred for folks with money. such thinking played a large part in the deaths of millions of people in the decades following the October Revolution in 1917. Your hatred is an ugly thing. Stop trying to infect others with it.


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## Willy85 (Aug 24, 2018)

Backwater said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1712221028876344
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Impacts are everywhere - we're gonna deal with this for quite a while!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

crboggs said:


> That said...in an effort to stray back on topic...I couldn't help but wonder how much Orlando and Disney contribute to the quality of water that ultimately reaches Lake O as it flows south. How have they been left out of the conversation to this point?


There is a lot. It's said that you can take a boat/ gheenoe/ microskiff (what have you) from Ft Myers to downtown Orlando through a series of rivers, lakes and canals. So yes, Orlando's lakes are ver much interconnected through to the Kissimmee chain and on down to Lake O. There is an untold volume of water being shed from lawns, theme park landscaping, as well as other business and commercial landscaping and even a few adjacent farms and cattle ranches, along the way. And many of those beautiful lawns, landscaping and fields are fertilized. There, phosphates and nitrates end up in the waterway and heads to the drain in..... you guessed it, in Lake O, thereby adding more fuel to the fire.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Backwater said:


> There is a lot. It's said that you can take a boat/ gheenoe/ microskiff (what have you) from Ft Myers to downtown Orlando through a series of rivers, lakes and canals. So yes, Orlando's lakes are ver much interconnected through to the Kissimmee chain and on down to Lake O. There is an untold volume of water being shed from lawns, theme park landscaping, as well as other business and commercial landscaping and even a few adjacent farms and cattle ranches, along the way. And many of those beautiful lawns, landscaping and fields are fertilized. There, phosphates and nitrates end up in the waterway and heads to the drain in..... you guessed it, in Lake O, thereby adding more fuel to the fire.


No matter how many ways we keep pointing out what we think may be contributing factors the issue remains the same, when water is released from Lake 'O in larger than normal trickling quantity the water it mixes with has adverse reactions that create this Blue/Green algae condition.

How the F can we force some hands to get it fixed ?
Not being a scientist/biologist I can't prove anything, not being a lawyer I can't fight it, but a a dummy on the outside I sure can see there is a problem here.
Why are'nt Mote, Harbor Branch, and the Universities all over this.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

camp said:


> I'm one of the ones who doesn't care.


Let me amend this. It was pre-coffee and I was feeling snarky. I'm 40 years old and have worked a job since I was 15. I've been sent to those sh*thole countries we hear about and been shot at while earning a check. I've been cold, tired and hungry while earning a check. Later when I came back, I earned a check trying to protect and serve some of those struggling individuals you mentioned. I was generally treated with disdain and scorn. I've had my ass kicked (physically) on the job and had many sleepless nights and seen things that no person should ever have to see just to earn that check. I'm now finally in a place where I'm doing ok, and quite frankly if it doesn't benefit me or mine, I don't want to pay for it. Maybe that makes me heartless or an asshole, or whatever but it is what it is.[/QUOTE]

OK ...First ..SP, only part of what you read I wrote. The incoherent stuff..was not me. This space is not safe. ..anyway I honor your service to this country. I honor those who serve a cause higher than themselves in all endeavors. I honor John McCain today.
i am probably older than you and have broader appreciation of the concept of "those who serve" than you. There are hundreds of thousands of people who sacrifice daily in their efforts to provide for the sick, the poor , the old, the mentally ill, the addicted and the abused...and they do not have the veterans administration(or anyone else) behind them. they are daily treated with disdain and scorn and forced to see things that no person should have to see. Most of them do not have any pension or health plan to fall back on. I guarantee you that every single one of them has had their asses kicked(often) and many sleepless nights. ...I don't want to be snarky with you either. I simply want the healthy and wealthy in this country to be as good to America as America has been to them. This is not the case today, not even close. and and I will not stand silent. I will not stand down. I will do my part ....and I will pay for it.[/QUOTE]
Hey, I appreciate your views and I'm certainly not trying to bust your balls in any way. I enjoy being able to disagree without name calling and foolishness. I'm just saying that for me, I've seen too much. I've seen the depths of addiction, mental illness, child abuse (you never get used to seeing the kids, man), domestic violence, mechanized warfare, you name it. My belief is that suffering and inequality are the realities of the human experience. It's going to be there whether the state of Florida gets 15% of my paycheck or not. So with that said, if it goes through it's no hard feelings but I'll buy some new coats and be Cody bound. Besides, drift boats look rad as hell.


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## Cam (Apr 5, 2017)

krash said:


> No matter how many ways we keep pointing out what we think may be contributing factors the issue remains the same, when water is released from Lake 'O in larger than normal trickling quantity the water it mixes with has adverse reactions that create this Blue/Green algae condition.


Even if the water coming for the lake is clean (or cleaner) it still trashes the eco system by heavily changing the salinity creating issues with grass and the fishery at the mouth of the river.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Lake O has to be full after Gordon rolled through. I looked at the radar and it was band after band rolling right over the lake.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

For anyone wondering why marine research outfits aren't "all over" water quality problems... The answer is pretty simple - they research what they're funded to research (and can rarely afford to do anything else...). I worked for a group of researchers a few years back that were based at Mote Marine.. They booked me for multiple days over several years as they did the research that eventually lead to the sawfish being added to the Endangered Specie listings... Not one bit of research into this would have occurred without that grant.

The bottom line is that they had a grant to do the research and once it was done the various players scattered to the winds and began working on other projects where funding was available - and so it goes.... (Vonnegut).

If the folks here in Florida can convince whoever is in office after this upcoming election (both on the legislative and the governor's side of the equation...) then the research will get funded, period. What actual use the research will be put to is just one tiny part of all that's going to be needed to even begin to fix the problems we've got....

Today in the Miami Herald there was an article that touted federal research involvement in dolphin deaths due to "algae problems" (as though red tide had anything at all to do with algae...). Apparently this research was automatically triggered when a significant number of dolphin deaths along the coast had occurred that represented a spike in the usual numbers (and this will be the fourth or fifth time over the years that it's been authorized after a spike in the numbers...). 

From reading the article -not one bit of the research will focus on the the factors causing the much bigger than normal red tide events this year - but that's pretty much how it goes when things are being done on a piecemeal basis...


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## Cam (Apr 5, 2017)

Cape Coral banning lawn fertilizer for a few months:

http://www.abc-7.com/story/39043061/cape-coral-fertilizer-ban-in-effect-to-fight-algae-woes

Sadly the biggest offenders are exempt.


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## DuckNut (Apr 3, 2009)

Cam said:


> Cape Coral banning lawn fertilizer for a few months:
> 
> http://www.abc-7.com/story/39043061/cape-coral-fertilizer-ban-in-effect-to-fight-algae-woes
> 
> Sadly the biggest offenders are exempt.


This is a story to show exactly how stupid the people on city council are. Lee county enacted this ban as a law in 2014, not a voluntary stoppage and these idiots don't even know the laws of their own county.


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## Rookiemistake (Jan 30, 2013)

I spent 3 days in tampa and you couldnt find a restaurant miles from the beach that didnt stink when someone openned the front door. Its bad and its happening so we need to work on the politacal aspect .....saying and doing are two diffrent animals.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

flatzcrazy said:


> Been hearing rumors about a school of the real big breeder reds belly up out by Egmont! Can anybody confirm this?


Ouch!


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## flatzcrazy (Feb 5, 2013)

Backwater said:


> Ouch!


Rumors have been confirmed, hundreds of the big girls deceased offshore of Venice


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

https://www.tampabay.com/investigat...e-fortune-500-company-moving-to-hillsborough/
https://www.tampabay.com/news/envir...-mine-DeSoto-County-has-rejected-it_170349203


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

About those big reds.... this is the time of year -last two weeks of September, first two weeks of October, when schools of big breeder reds (those 20 to 40 pounders) come in much closer to shore than normal - at least they do along the Gulf coast of the 'Glades where I am most days, if I'm booked. Don't know if the breeding schools come in close this time of year over your way - but if they do let's hope that most of the red tides have dissipated first. Most of the year those breeding schools stay offshore (that's where the spotter planes were able to find them back during the "blackened redfish" craze years ago - and nearly wiped them out...). Until that magic recipe the big fish had little, if any commercial value. That whole deal was one of the reasons it was so important to get gamefish (no netting) status for them.

This is the only time of year I ever make a point of looking for them -and when the biggest red was taken on my skiff - right at 35lbs... and very carefully released to fight another day... Any pods of the big fish that run into a red tide area won't last long I'm afraid...


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

7WT said:


> https://www.tampabay.com/investigat...e-fortune-500-company-moving-to-hillsborough/
> https://www.tampabay.com/news/envir...-mine-DeSoto-County-has-rejected-it_170349203


They’re gonna fight for sure. Mosaic needs all the bad press they can get.


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## mwolaver (Feb 6, 2014)

Reports of red tide in Bay county on the radio this morning....


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## TylertheTrout2 (Apr 21, 2016)

Bad red tide in Estero Bay this morning... this onshore breeze has been up most the week.. another wave of it coming in towards Naples yesterday from what ive heard as well..


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## Cam (Apr 5, 2017)

Talk about killing one of the worlds best sports fisheries. Not sure we are going to stay much longer in this area unless there are significant changes in public policy. Even then we are years away from improving the fishery.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

It’s not leaving anytime soon. It has an endless supply of nutrition.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

TylertheTrout2 said:


> Bad red tide in Estero Bay this morning... this onshore breeze has been up most the week.. another wave of it coming in towards Naples yesterday from what ive heard as well..


Hate to hear it still lingering down there, continually damaging the fishery there.

I crossed over the Skyway bridge yesterday and not a boat in sight. Word has it it's spread up the coast of St Pete and heading up towards Clearwater.


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## fjmaverick (Sep 18, 2015)

Naples news last night reported the beach is full of fish again due to a change in wind direction


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

http://myfwc.com/media/4493016/swtable0921.pdf


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## Marker10 (Oct 29, 2017)

Reports this afternoon aren’t looking for any significant improvement for Pinellas though the concentration levels are declining. Saw FWC’s newest update now includes off shore Pasco. It’s going to take a cold winter with water temps around 50 degrees to kill this into submission, but that will most definitely kill fish as well. The further north this stuff floats, we can expect an order to catch and release all snook and reds just like the neighbors to the south have now. Grouper troopers are citing folks who are bagging fish south of the release line and bringing them north.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Ran Sarasota with a buddy today in his new boat he just bought. They have a 3rd wave coming in and floating fish on the passes and washed up on the beaches again. It's acting like a washing mashing where the tide brings it in, does it damage, then washes offshore for a while, then comes back. I'm over it and hope it clears up eventually.










How about some more reports in your areas, guys??


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Up to Tampa for grand-daughter 2nd b-day this weekend arrived yesterday, to my surprise my son was out fishing with a buddy, so when he got home I asked about the Red Tide... he said inside the Bay its not bad or evident that its mostly outside the Skyway, they fished and caught small Snook and a Red in the bay.
The radio report on local rock station said if you are going to the beach the local report is Tarpon Springs is OK this week. Cold weather and/or a big storm should help, but these West winds are not helping.


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## TylertheTrout2 (Apr 21, 2016)

I work at a marina inside Wiggins pass, chatting with the parasail capts off Bonita and Vanderbilt beachs.. its on it's way in, not too noticable in the back yet but that's how the last wave hit...creeps in and just wipes it clean, Estero Bay is definitely feeling it, again towards the east wall and up some of the creeks it's not noticable..


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

Muther Effer !!!


http://myfwc.com/research/redtide/statewide/


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

Fished north part of Matlacha this morning with my youngest daughter. East side of Jug Creek is dirty as hell but no red tide. Fished the bar in the 2 pines area and water was not too bad. Clear enough to try and we stayed busy. We ended up with a bunch of short snook and some really nice snapper. Channel by Indian Fields didn’t look right though. I hope it’s not a developing patch. I wonder how much our bait wells and bilges help move the stuff around....


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

My question would you go or cancel a trip to Inglewood in 14 days ? 

What are the risks from airborne stuff ?


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## topnative2 (Feb 22, 2009)

Saltwater Sportsman Oct. has a great article on the problem and how Gov. Scott screwed the pooch.....he is on my sh--t list if the story is accurate


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## flatzcrazy (Feb 5, 2013)

noeettica said:


> My question would you go or cancel a trip to Inglewood in 14 days ?
> 
> What are the risks from airborne stuff ?


Inglewood or Englewood?


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

lemaymiami said:


> About those big reds.... this is the time of year -last two weeks of September, first two weeks of October, when schools of big breeder reds (those 20 to 40 pounders) come in much closer to shore than normal - at least they do along the Gulf coast of the 'Glades where I am most days, if I'm booked. Don't know if the breeding schools come in close this time of year over your way - but if they do let's hope that most of the red tides have dissipated first. Most of the year those breeding schools stay offshore (that's where the spotter planes were able to find them back during the "blackened redfish" craze years ago - and nearly wiped them out...). Until that magic recipe the big fish had little, if any commercial value. That whole deal was one of the reasons it was so important to get gamefish (no netting) status for them.
> 
> This is the only time of year I ever make a point of looking for them -and when the biggest red was taken on my skiff - right at 35lbs... and very carefully released to fight another day... Any pods of the big fish that run into a red tide area won't last long I'm afraid...


Capt LeMay, you have any reports to share about any knowledge of redtide from the 10K, thru middle Glades on the outside, past Flamingo and down to Florida Bay?


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

Englewood I was on my Linux box LoL !


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

So far not a single sign of red tide past Marco ... all the way south to Cape Sable and back towards Flamingo... We've just been lucky I guess. That doesn't mean that things are good though since all of the bights east of Flamingo are in terrible shape with severe grass loss and various different algae blooms (Snake, Garfield, Rankin, and Santina bights....). I know more than one guide who has just quit working that entire area... All of this is just an extension of the bad water problems the east and west coast is facing... While all the nutrient laden waters from Lake Okeechobee are being discharged down the St. Lucie (east to Stuart) or the Caloosahatchee west to the Gulf coast --- the Everglades aren't getting the much needed fresh water flowing south (since there just isn't anyway left to do that...).

Haven't verified it but I've had one report that there's been a big loss of grass between Chokoloskee and Lostman's River... No red tide or any algae problems but a loss of grass along the ocean side of the 10K sounds like a very bad sign to me...

The areas I fish the most this time of year (the Gulf coast from Big Sable Creek all the way north to Highland Beach) haven't shown the slightest problem so I count myself very lucky... I've just come off of three days out of Flamingo - and we caught and released tarpon, snook, redfish, speckled trout and others - every day. Today the trip was cut short when I lost an injector and we had to go 23 miles at 6 to 7 miles an hour, all the way home on two out of three cylinders... Tomorrow I'll be on the phone to the shop begging for some attention.... I'll post a fishing report separately with pics and short video tomorrow or the next day....


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## flatzcrazy (Feb 5, 2013)

flatzcrazy said:


> Inglewood or Englewood?


I will be there on tues. & can give you an update on how things look down there then.


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## noeettica (Sep 23, 2007)

Please do

Most likely I will go anyway ...




flatzcrazy said:


> I will be there on tues. & can give you an update on how things look down there then.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

OK so I am sitting in the sauna at the YMCA in MN. and there is a guy talking about buying a house south of lake O because he is going to be working on a project drilling multiple 50 inch diameter wells a mile or more down to disperse excess water into the aquifer....is this a real thing?


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## Marker10 (Oct 29, 2017)

Yes, it is a real thing and has been used before in Oklahoma for various types of liquids (oil, gas, water), and is known as a Class 5 injection well. I haven’t heard any recent news or reports of the counties surrounding the lake trying to do this but the City of St. Petersburg, FL is doing this very same thing currently due to inadequate pumping stations and facilities that accommodate their run off. The run off is injected into a briney area of the aquifer according to the city, but they were also fined by DEP for discharges last year during hurricane season for dumping it into Tampa Bay.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Thought I posted this the other day here... but injection wells is a for real proposal by SFWMD...
Emergency Protection Wells


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

krash said:


> Thought I posted this the other day here... but injection wells is a for real proposal by SFWMD...
> Emergency Protection Wells


thanks for posting this. WOW I can't imagine anything going wrong with this. At least i know that the Y sauna is still a reliable source of information.


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## flatzcrazy (Feb 5, 2013)

noeettica said:


> Please do
> 
> Most likely I will go anyway ...


Checked things out there today from the north end down to the park. Water is clearing up, noticed no fish on the beach or floating in gulf. No redtide smell at all. So overall at least for now things are looking up in this area.
Flatz


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)




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## Guest (Sep 25, 2018)

Just another way to avoid solving the real problem! This way someone will actually get to profit! They will bottle that water and sell it back to the public, nothing wrong with that except our tax dollars are going to fund it!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Starting Friday, Snook and Redfish will be off-limits to harvest until May 10, 2019 due to impacts of red ride on the populations of these fish. 










https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/FLFFWCC/bulletins/21017c8


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

Unfortunately the red tide will likely still be here on May 10th


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## flatzcrazy (Feb 5, 2013)

noeettica said:


> Please do
> 
> Most likely I will go anyway ...


I was on Manasota Key today down by stump pass park, beach looks like crap & dead fish in canals & down by north end of boca grande by the bridge.


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

Not on SW coast but Miami confirmed:
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/article219477125.html


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## bryson (Jun 22, 2015)

I know everyone is focused on the hurricane right now (and with good reason), but apparently the Senate approved WRDA with the EAA Reservoir today. I am not as educated on this stuff as most, but it seems to be a big step in the right direction.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

bryson said:


> I know everyone is focused on the hurricane right now (and with good reason), but apparently the Senate approved WRDA with the EAA Reservoir today. I am not as educated on this stuff as most, but it seems to be a big step in the right direction.


Kudos to groups like Captains for Clean Water for staying focused on impactful legislation instead of partisan politics.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Hey guys, lets gets some reports and feedback from this coming weekend and see if any of you microskiffers out there report any sightings of red tide or dead fish. I'm hoping Hurricane Michael sucked out all the red tide into the deep Gulf and away from the shoreline, on the north side of the storm when the winds were pulling out to sea from the east. But unfortunately, the back side of the storm brought in all that wind, seas and tides back inshore. So I'm hoping the washing machine effect dissipated the the Red Tide and give us some relief from it, including sweeping out all the dead fish, offshore.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

Fished South Matlacha yesterday morning and the redfish and snook top water bite was on fire. Water was pretty clear except a few areas where small patches of milky looking water were. Didn’t see any dead fish but there wasn’t much bait around which might explain why the fishing was so good. Going to try and hit Pine Island sound later this week.


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## Marker10 (Oct 29, 2017)

Pinellas County around Maximo Park has red tide and floating fish. I moved inside Tampa Bay and fished the interior shore lines and bridges and saw no indication of it at all. Fished the Skyway today and no sign of it there. It seems to be effecting the outer coast of Pinellas most.


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## flatzcrazy (Feb 5, 2013)

Marker10 said:


> Pinellas County around Maximo Park has red tide and floating fish. I moved inside Tampa Bay and fished the interior shore lines and bridges and saw no indication of it at all. Fished the Skyway today and no sign of it there. It seems to be effecting the outer coast of Pinellas most.


On tues I heard reports of more of the big Breeder reds belly up near Bunces Pass.


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## Net 30 (Mar 24, 2012)

Red tide is all over the East Coast oceanside. Just got a message from Indian River Shores Public Safety about tens of thousands of dead fish from Vero to Sebastian. Talked with my neighbors today on the island and they said you can't go outside due to rotting fish stench.

Not good at all. Hope it spares all the big Snook and Red breeders in Sebastian Inlet!

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/indian-river-lagoon/health/2018/10/17/red-tide/1668336002/


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

It's all the way up into Cocoa Beach. Bad timing with the fall mullet run about to be in full swing


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

Wait till the first front pushes the thick bait clouds down into the affected areas. Cleaning that up will be a nightmare.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

UPDATE!!! RED TIDE, in full force and effect on the east coast now, from the drainage of the St Lucie from Lake Okeechobee to the east coast of Florida and then running northward with the tides. Now it's the east coast to feel the full force of it!






Devastating hitting the breeder mullet on the east coast mullet run. Watch the whole video!


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Red tide is not a result of Lake 'O discharges.... but it has hit the East Coast and appears to be moving North.


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

krash said:


> Red tide is not a result of Lake 'O discharges.... but it has hit the East Coast and appears to be moving North.


Take a look at this map and tell me the red tide isn't feeding on the nutrient laden discharge water from lake o. Red tide may not be cause by lake o but it's being sustained by it.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

el9surf said:


> Red tide may not be cause by lake o but it's being sustained by it.


Is Lake O actively discharging right now? I honestly don't know.

If not, when was the last discharge that reached the coastal areas?


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

In my opinion... everything is as usual -connected to everything else... If you look for a smoking gun you'll be looking a long time, but I'm betting that cleaning up the big lake (and that will only happen after you clean up all the waters flowing into it...) will be a big start... then figuring out how to send clean water south - all the way down to Florida Bay... 

The areas of the Park (Everglades National Park for those not from this area that read this...) that I fish in are only getting about 10% of the freshwater - that was coming there a hundred years ago... That should give you a hint of just how screwed up things are. Every bit of our troubles came to us from decisions made locally, at the state level, and finally at the federal level over a period of eighty years or more. Very few villains to be found in that history... What you will find is a cascading effect as the state grew in population, and grew into an agricultural mecca, then came the years when serious flooding after storms (and hurricanes) lead residents to beg for relief - then the Corps of Engineers stepping up - at our request to "fix" those problems after WWII.... The list of actions taken reads like a planned catastrophe - but at every step the folks who acted were pretty much ignorant of what the consequences might be way down the road... as they dealt with this part or that part of the problems that everyone faced... 

Now, of course, as the bill comes due (and we simply know more than we did all those years ago...) the folks that lead the state are faced with big problems that will cost a ton of money to fix - and they'll barely be getting started by the time I'm no longer around.. If any action is taken at all.

Of course with an election coming up - that's not what you're going to be hearing from those wanting to keep their jobs - or those wanting to replace them....


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2018)

lemaymiami said:


> In my opinion... everything is as usual -connected to everything else... If you look for a smoking gun you'll be looking a long time, but I'm betting that cleaning up the big lake (and that will only happen after you clean up all the waters flowing into it...) will be a big start... then figuring out how to send clean water south - all the way down to Florida Bay...
> 
> The areas of the Park (Everglades National Park for those not from this area that read this...) that I fish in are only getting about 10% of the freshwater - that was coming there a hundred years ago... That should give you a hint of just how screwed up things are. Every bit of our troubles came to us from decisions made locally, at the state level, and finally at the federal level over a period of eighty years or more. Very few villains to be found in that history... What you will find is a cascading effect as the state grew in population, and grew into an agricultural mecca, then came the years when serious flooding after storms (and hurricanes) lead residents to beg for relief - then the Corps of Engineers stepping up - at our request to "fix" those problems after WWII.... The list of actions taken reads like a planned catastrophe - but at every step the folks who acted were pretty much ignorant of what the consequences might be way down the road... as they dealt with this part or that part of the problems that everyone faced...
> 
> ...


Well said sir!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> Well said sir!


Sick, sick, sick of the rationalization BS that goes on. This sickening never ending crap is is fed by the garbage Florida voters have been encouraging for decades. Jobs jobs, jobs...more and more stupid sub divisions...and a free pass to anyone to build anything. The chickens are coming home to roost but at least they are smart enough to be building at higher elevations. Cuck...cuck...you are destroying your own home.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2018)

camp said:


> Sick, sick, sick of the rationalization BS that goes on. This sickening never ending crap is is fed by the garbage Florida voters have been encouraging for decades. Jobs jobs, jobs...more and more stupid sub divisions...and a free pass to anyone to build anything. The chickens are coming home to roost but at least they are smart enough to be building at higher elevations. Cuck...cuck...you are destroying your own home.


I’m not really sure how to take this statement??? Maybe it’s just my simpleton brain.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

I guess my point is that you can look and look and look for a smoking gun...but you don't have to. Everyone knows the answer. You know the answer. People who say we need to study this are lying. People who say they don't see the connection between Lake O water and green algae are lying. People who say we don't know if the green algae is super charging the red tide are lying. People who say we don't know enough to act are lying. It is at the least time to stop lying. There is another discussion...perhaps the majority of people believe that destroying Florida's water ways is good business....I don't put this passed Florida's voters. Good luck with that.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2018)

Well I will say through a science source in which I will not disclose that the blue green algae has nothing to do with red tide! They are both horrible though. The blue green algae is a direct side effect of over population, flood control, factory farming, fertilizer run off, etc...
Red tide is a very natural “organism” “read, not algae” and the “bloom” is directly related to the water temperature, and I can tell you the gulf did not get cold enough for the last several winters so a red tide epidemic was inevitable. We have a very serious water quality and watershed problem here in Florida no doubt. But us voters do want things fixed. But we want them fixed properly and without infringing on our own or our neighbors rights! lemaymiami made a very good point in that none of this mess is the fault of any current lawmaker or administration. The fact is, the work has started but it is gonna take a long long time to begin to restore the damages caused for almost a century!
Another fact is if people would quit moving here we wouldn’t need all those jobs jobs jobs and houses,houses, houses... but they keep coming man! My family is from the poorest town in the state and I can tell you jobs are important everywhere! That is unless you prefer to be on welfare??? I for one would rather have a job that I go to amd earn a living!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> Well I will say through a science source in which I will not disclose that the blue green algae has nothing to do with red tide! They are both horrible though. The blue green algae is a direct side effect of over population, flood control, factory farming, fertilizer run off, etc...
> Red tide is a very natural “organism” “read, not algae” and the “bloom” is directly related to the water temperature, and I can tell you the gulf did not get cold enough for the last several winters so a red tide epidemic was inevitable. We have a very serious water quality and watershed problem here in Florida no doubt. But us voters do want things fixed. But we want them fixed properly and without infringing on our own or our neighbors rights! lemaymiami made a very good point in that none of this mess is the fault of any current lawmaker or administration. The fact is, the work has started but it is gonna take a long long time to begin to restore the damages caused for almost a century!
> Another fact is if people would quit moving here we wouldn’t need all those jobs jobs jobs and houses,houses, houses... but they keep coming man! My family is from the poorest town in the state and I can tell you jobs are important everywhere! That is unless you prefer to be on welfare??? I for one would rather have a job that I go to amd earn a living!


Boatbrains..you and your family have a lot more to lose than I have to gain. I mean no harm. Everything you said reinforces my premise. The Gulf is warmer, the rains are more intense, the garbage flowing into Lake O is getting worse every year, the need to release water before hurricane season is becoming normal, the red tide lingers longer and longer and now the tourism economy is being destroyed. Thing are going to get much worse before they get better. I hope your family does not require tourism for it's livelihood.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2018)

Thankfully it does not! I wish there was more we could do but the fact is this... all promises made by every politician are lies! These environmental issues only come up during campaign time! Some good things are happening now though just not what I would do, but a step in the right direction at least. Honestly no offense to anyone but my biggest gripe is everyone from new england decides to move here, they then clamp their wallets very firmly between the buttocks, and want to make my home state new england! And when they get here they have to have the greenest lushest lawn in the state so they pour the water, fertilizer, and pesticides to it. My second biggest complaint is all the God#*##*% Mother $&@#*^+ golf courses! I watched a development go in when I was a kid designed for said new englanders, they dug man made ponds for the course and to make “waterfront” lots! Well, when they did that all looked great for a couple years and then... the water levels started dropping! Across the hwy from this place were some lakes and I can’t remember what it’s called but they are special in that the aquifer is at the surface level of the lake or pond. That comunity pulled the aquifer down 8-12’ in just a couple years drying the lakes I grew up fishing as well as the communities ponds right up! All in the name of green grass! Ok, rant over lol!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> Thankfully it does not! I wish there was more we could do but the fact is this... all promises made by every politician are lies! These environmental issues only come up during campaign time! Some good things are happening now though just not what I would do, but a step in the right direction at least. Honestly no offense to anyone but my biggest gripe is everyone from new england decides to move here, they then clamp their wallets very firmly between the buttocks, and want to make my home state new england! And when they get here they have to have the greenest lushest lawn in the state so they pour the water, fertilizer, and pesticides to it. My second biggest complaint is all the God#*##*% Mother $&@#*^+ golf courses! I watched a development go in when I was a kid designed for said new englanders, they dug man made ponds for the course and to make “waterfront” lots! Well, when they did that all looked great for a couple years and then... the water levels started dropping! Across the hwy from this place were some lakes and I can’t remember what it’s called but they are special in that the aquifer is at the surface level of the lake or pond. That comunity pulled the aquifer down 8-12’ in just a couple years drying the lakes I grew up fishing as well as the communities ponds right up! All in the name of green grass! Ok, rant over lol!


Yeah... I get it. we can at least tell the world that we are not all a bunch of self defeating fools. Seriously (I am not from New England) the next generation(millennial) is not going to Florida. Trust me on this...they hate the "idea" of Florida. Florida is about to collapse ...the whole ponzi scheme. Hope you and your family win but losers will be a much larger group.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2018)

camp said:


> Yeah... I get it. we can at least tell the world that we are not all a bunch of self defeating fools. Seriously (I am not from New England) the next generation(millennial) is not going to Florida. Trust me on this...they hate the "idea" of Florida. Florida is about to collapse ...the whole ponzi scheme. Hope you and your family win but losers will be a much larger group.


I am ready to ride that ride, been praying and prepping for it my whole life I think! Me and mine will survive it just fine!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> I am ready to ride that ride, been praying and prepping for it my whole life I think! Me and mine will survive it just fine!


best!


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## TylertheTrout2 (Apr 21, 2016)

Anyone in Charlotte or Lee counties feeling another wave of red tide? Buddy of mine of Captiva says its been back for a few days now up there...N Naples/Bonita still looking O.K. but.. looks to be showing up in Collier again according to FWC Red Tide map..


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## el9surf (Dec 23, 2008)

It's all over the east coast at the moment as well. Heard it's up into the Indian River around long point north of Sebastian as well.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

TylertheTrout2 said:


> Anyone in Charlotte or Lee counties feeling another wave of red tide? Buddy of mine of Captiva says its been back for a few days now up there...N Naples/Bonita still looking O.K. but.. looks to be showing up in Collier again according to FWC Red Tide map..


no sign or smell on the north end of pine island. News is talking about an outbreak near englewood.


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## ShugC (Apr 23, 2016)

Estero Bay from big Carlos pass thru bonita was clear yesterday water is a bit off colored but no red tide as of yet.


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## TylertheTrout2 (Apr 21, 2016)

Yeah roger that, hopefully that south wind from yesterday and today will help...it's been cranking today outbhere..


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

Charlotte Harbor thru Placida is clear. Don Pedro beach clear. I did see one floater on way back into Placida.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

krash said:


> Red tide is not a result of Lake 'O discharges.... but it has hit the East Coast and appears to be moving North.


Yes it is!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Clearing south side of Tampa Bay and the Bradenton area. I hear reports up the coast tho, Pass-a-grill, parts of St Beach Beach, Indian Rocks Beach, Bellaire Beach and the Clearwater Pass area.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Backwater said:


> Yes it is!


Can't tell if you're serious or not. That's an unusually brief Backwater post. 

We know red tide has been documented way back into the early days of recorded history in this state. The debate is whether or not the discharges feed or boost the red tide and extend its range or duration. The jury is still out on that definitively...

Anyone who tells you they can prevent or stop red tide is lying or pandering.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2018)

crboggs said:


> Can't tell if you're serious or not. That's an unusually brief Backwater post.
> 
> We know red tide has been documented way back into the early days of recorded history in this state. The debate is whether or not the discharges feed or boost the red tide and extend its range or duration. The jury is still out on that definitively.
> 
> Anyone who tells you they can prevent or stop red tide is lying or pandering.


But that’s not stopping the millions in research money from being dumped into it! I feel that money would have been much better spent fixing the blue green algae problem that can be fixed. Fracken politicians, I hate’em all!


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Boatbrains said:


> But that’s not stopping the millions in research money from being dumped into it! I feel that money would have been much better spent fixing the blue green algae problem that can be fixed. Fracken politicians, I hate’em all!


Maybe...but referencing my post in another thread about "settled science", I'm not opposed to researching the situation if it can be done without political bias or preconception. Can the two be linked or no? Its a question worth asking given the impact on both the environment and the economy...


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2018)

https://www.sailorsforthesea.org/programs/ocean-watch/nutrients-feed-red-tide
This was an interesting read. Not sure if it has been posted already so apologies if it has.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2018)

crboggs said:


> Maybe...but referencing my post in another thread about "settled science", I'm not opposed to researching the situation if it can be done without political bias or preconception. Can the two be linked or no? Its a question worth asking given the impact on both the environment and the economy...


Agreed, but I still hate politicians!


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

I don't think there is any question that pollution, sewage, fertilizers, runoffs, redirected water canals, phosphate industry, and climate change, all human related provide a fertile environment for brevis algae to explode. I see nothing to debate here.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

7WT said:


> I see nothing to debate here.


You threw out alot of stuff. Makes sense to know which is the most impactful and the the most manageable. Again...we need specifics, not talking points about causation.


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

Specifically they all need to be addressed


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## Marker10 (Oct 29, 2017)

Nitrogen induction into the Gulf has been directly linked to the growth of Trichodesmium and K. Brevis. A start would be to control the use of fertilizer and discharge into the Peace, Caloosahatchee, and Lox Rivers. It doesn’t just rain Junglegrow, Scott’s Weed and Feed, and turfbuilder in Florida. Cleaning up discharged water before it gets to the Gulf isn’t going to hurt anyone or livelihoods.


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## TylertheTrout2 (Apr 21, 2016)

new FWC chart just came out yesterday....feast your eyeeessssss on that sh#t!! damn... We've got to agree that we're gonna disagree on the source/issue/causation, need to start acting neighborly and figuring out ways to protect whats left.. 1000 people a day moving to FL = 20 acres an hour we need to develope to accomodate the masses.. we've got a very complex issue that isnt just a red tide issue, its a nutrient leeching, over populated, poorly regulated, disruption to delecate environmental balance.. problem..etc.. whew! i need a beer. Love all you microskiffin sons-a-bitches, you!


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2018)

Build the wall, close the Florida border!


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## Marker10 (Oct 29, 2017)

We call that in my neck of the sticks, six pounds of sh!t in a five pound bucket. Too late for shutting the gates. A lack of development planning has made the current state of Florida what it is. As much as I love my state, we have to act now if my kids are going to have any chance at landing reds, Snook, and snapper in the next 20 years.


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## manny2376 (Mar 15, 2007)

Boatbrains said:


> Build the wall, close the Florida border!


ASAP! as much as that kills me to say, we gotta stop the bleeding.


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

Close the boarder lol only about 50yrs too late on that one boys!!


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2018)

Fishshoot said:


> Close the boarder lol only about 50yrs too late on that one boys!!


It sounded good though!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> It sounded good though!


Come on!...you do understand that Florida zoning and it's stupid self defeating land policies are killing coastal Florida by design, Right? Florida is a ponzi scheme. Anyone who cannot see this is blind.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2018)

Florida zoning is killing all of Florida! Forced city water and sewer, forced to be on the electric grid, etc... I ain’t leaving but I’m willing to bet land will be cheap here in just a few more years! I’m also willing to bet that until then after new hurricane codes go into effect that the house construction will slow dramatically! Once the smoke clears from Micheal they will introduce a whole new list of codes! But hey, it’s for the health and well being of the state and the citizens! Right, someone else can drink that koolaid!


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> Florida zoning is killing all of Florida! Forced city water and sewer, forced to be on the electric grid, etc... I ain’t leaving but I’m willing to bet land will be cheap here in just a few more years! I’m also willing to bet that until then after new hurricane codes go into effect that the house construction will slow dramatically! Once the smoke clears from Micheal they will introduce a whole new list of codes! But hey, it’s for the health and well being of the state and the citizens! Right, someone else can drink that koolaid!


BB urban parts of Florida like Cape Coral are expanding every year despite the lack central sewers . Or any sort of plan. There are thousands of undeveloped lots some dating to the 50's and 60's unused yet the city continues to expand into new areas without services. Why? Because real estate sales are the only thing keeping their city alive. Taxpayers who own existing lots are being screwed and huge unaddressed problems grow larger every day. Ponzi scheme. This is not a migrant/immigrant problem this is a greed stupidity problem.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2018)

I will agree with the greed problem but can tell you first hand that city water and sewer is happining even in places it’s not welcome like my 5acres! The problem is the people moving here don’t want to pay for them yet want to live on the water


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Boatbrains said:


> I will agree with the greed problem but can tell you first hand that city water and sewer is happining even in places it’s not welcome like my 5acres! The problem is the people moving here don’t want to pay for them yet want to live on the water


sorry guy but most of the country has been through this in the last few decades and pretty much everyone appreciates the benefit after the fact. Truth is you are one well or one septic away from wishing to god you were on the system. I get it that some people get caught at exactly the wrong time I hope this is not you.

I grew up on a small lake where everyone had a septic. After a huge battle the sewer came in and the lake water improved dramatically and in short order property values soared. Change is hard but it can be for the better.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2018)

camp said:


> sorry guy but most of the country has been through this in the last few decades and pretty much everyone appreciates the benefit after the fact. Truth is you are one well or one septic away from wishing to god you were on the system. I get it that some people get caught at exactly the wrong time I hope this is not you.
> 
> I grew up on a small lake where everyone had a septic. After a huge battle the sewer came in and the lake water improved dramatically and in short order property values soared. Change is hard but it can be for the better.


Yep, I’m not gonna agree with totally on this issue! I believe people on the water should probably be on sewer but more for flooding type issues. Say what you will about how much it is helping water quality and you are correct right up until the iperator dumps all that raw sewage straight into the lake! Now, we are talking about chemically treated water with clorine and other things. Research how many organisms are killed by a single tsp of clorine! It’s non selective so good stuff dies too! My nitrates are being broke down naturally by mother nature in a very close way that they were intended to be. You want ckean water? Total ban in lawn fertilizer homeowner and commercial that’s the ticket! Just look at all the sewer main breaks that have dumped and are dumping raw sewage into the water! You talk about Ponzi schemes. Here is another scheme for ya’ll, lets make everybody in the country go on city water, force them to pay for the infrastucture and then force them to pay for the water they use and need! Sounds a little communist to me but hey, it’s for our safety!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Marker10 said:


> Nitrogen induction into the Gulf has been directly linked to the growth of Trichodesmium and K. Brevis. A start would be to control the use of fertilizer and discharge into the Peace, Caloosahatchee, and Lox Rivers. It doesn’t just rain Junglegrow, Scott’s Weed and Feed, and turfbuilder in Florida. Cleaning up discharged water before it gets to the Gulf isn’t going to hurt anyone or livelihoods.


This! ^^^^


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

How many people leave Florida every day ?

What if we just block out the SnowBirds and bulldoze their property.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

Go ahead and close the gates...

I was born in Niceville before being raised in rural GA...so I'm claiming native status. Married a 4th generation Tampa girl and consider my daughters to be Florida Dreamers. *lol*

On a serious note...I bump into way too many people who moved down here from New England states to avoid high taxes but continue to vote for the very types of policies they were trying to escape in retirement.


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

Fyi NH has no income or sales tax. Not many Mainers or Vermonters here. Just sayin


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## TylertheTrout2 (Apr 21, 2016)

..apparently by 2050 the worlds coral reefs will be extinct and there will be more plastic than fish in our oceans....looking for an interesting (and sad) read? Check out 'The 6th Extinction' by Elizabeth Kolbert


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

TylertheTrout2 said:


> ..apparently by 2050 the worlds coral reefs will be extinct and there will be more plastic than fish in our oceans....looking for an interesting (and sad) read? Check out 'The 6th Extinction' by Elizabeth Kolbert


Disposable containers should not be made from permanent materials. 
95% of the plastic in the worlds oceans originates in 10 rivers.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

7WT said:


> Fyi NH has no income or sales tax. Not many Mainers or Vermonters here. Just sayin


North Carolina to Maine and West to Minnesota is the new New England now


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

TylertheTrout2 said:


> ..apparently by 2050 the worlds coral reefs will be extinct and there will be more plastic than fish in our oceans....looking for an interesting (and sad) read? Check out 'The 6th Extinction' by Elizabeth Kolbert


Yup...and a huge portion of that plastic originates outside of the USA...yet we ban straws?


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

7WT said:


> Fyi NH has no income or sales tax. Not many Mainers or Vermonters here. Just sayin


Yup...its mostly Mass, NJ, and NY...


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2018)

crboggs said:


> Yup...its mostly Mass, NJ, and NY...


Welcome to Florida!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

EdK13 said:


> Disposable containers should not be made from permanent materials.
> 95% of the plastic in the worlds oceans originates in 10 rivers.
> View attachment 48242


Interesting how for many decades, it was ok for NY's Manhatten and Long Island's landfills were shipping around 6 barges full of garbage per day and dumping them offshore into the Atlantic. So it was stopped some years ago, but the residue of trash constantly drifts around the ocean.. Also, all their sewer sludge is dumped about 106 miles offshore, of of Atlantic City into a deep hole out there. Their mind set is "out of sight, out of mind and no harm will come of it. Yet their bluefin tuna fleet regularly fishes that area.

They tried shipping their trash all the way down to Key West's incinerator, but an environmental group contacted Florida's Governor Martinez and he blocked the deal.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

So today there was some shady stuff happening.. 


South Florida Water Management District meeting. They are trying to pull a fast one: rushing a vote on extending the land lease with Florida Crystals for land authorized to be used for the EAA Southern Storage Reservoir before anyone has time to notice. Not only may this violate their public notice requirements, but given that the current lease does not expire until March, there is no reason to rush this through now.

Because we did not receive enough advance notice on this vote to ensure that this extension would not delay construction of the EAA Southern Storage Reservoir, Governor-Elect DeSantis and I are urging the South Florida Water Management District to delay the vote.

The EAA Southern Storage Reservoir is a critical component of Everglades Restoration and our joint efforts to prevent harmful algal blooms. We will not support any lease extension that could delay the construction of the reservoir in direct contradiction of the intention of both the United States Congress and Florida Legislature.

https://livestream.com/accounts/243...j5TmXFomNDhuJfGJp7sZmR0lNzG7S1vD6pvZEFxFJL734


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2018)

All sorts of shady shat happining in this state today!


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

Surprise, surprise...


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2018)

Not sure if this ones been posted here yet.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

It's back just like herpes already made it to North Fort Myers.


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## formerWAflyfisher (Sep 5, 2008)

This was early this morning at Caxambas pass on Marco. No dead fish, but a dead bird. Heard about some other dolphins near downtown Naples. Not sure if this was redtide or just a dead dolphin.


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## Fish the chop (Nov 24, 2018)

23,000,000 pounds of cow shit/ day produced in Florida! This isn’t helping the situation! Way too much for a state the size of Florida!


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## TylertheTrout2 (Apr 21, 2016)

I personally saw the one brought into Wiggins Pass yesterday (11-25), reports of one in New Pass yesterday as well from the boys at Docs Beach House..two washed ashore this morning in Naples one just South of the Naples Pier and one off Moorings Beach.. i also heard of 2 off Residents Beach off Marco.. if somthing is killing large marine mammals, could it kill large terrestrial mammals? (us) Scary...31 years in SWFL and parents were born here.. no one has ever seen anything like it..


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

I spoke to an offshore guide off of John's Pass (St Pete/Clearwater area) and he says the red tide is seen off 8-10 miles offshore on the surface. They have to chance either fishing below it or run out past it to do any good.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

krash said:


> So today there was some shady stuff happening..
> 
> 
> South Florida Water Management District meeting. They are trying to pull a fast one: rushing a vote on extending the land lease with Florida Crystals for land authorized to be used for the EAA Southern Storage Reservoir before anyone has time to notice. Not only may this violate their public notice requirements, but given that the current lease does not expire until March, there is no reason to rush this through now.
> ...


It's their form of CYA!


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Fish the chop said:


> 23,000,000 pounds of cow shit/ day produced in Florida! This isn’t helping the situation! Way too much for a state the size of Florida!


Jackie, you work for the phosphate industry? Blame shifting? I get it!

Cow shit = organics. You have naturally occurring organics anyway. It's the artificial fertilizers (nitrates and phosphates) that is doing most of the damage.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Backwater said:


> Jackie, you work for the phosphate industry? Blame shifting? I get it!
> 
> Cow shit = organics. You have naturally occurring organics anyway. It's the artificial fertilizers (nitrates and phosphates) that is doing most of the damage.


Agreed this was one of the three largest cattle states for a long time I'm thinking he's full of bs lived in swfl since birth 67 it's overpopulation and fertilizer/ septic system issues.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Boatbrains said:


>


This is what I've been saying all along! As well as the regulations of *Bull Sugar* draining into Lake O and the mindless dumping of phosphate wastewater into our waters from *Big Phosphate*!

Thanks for posting this video, which everyone should watch and support.


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

camp said:


> Come on!...you do understand that Florida zoning and it's stupid self defeating land policies are killing coastal Florida by design, Right? Florida is a ponzi scheme. Anyone who cannot see this is blind.


Let the record show, that this is the one and probably only time I will agree with you. Ponzi scheme. Well said.


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

Phosphates, pollution, redirected water via canals, warming ocean temps, carbon increase in oceans, septic to name a few. Tough nut to crack, but hitting the obvious big ones would enormously help. Expensive? Very. Can it happen, yes. Look at the Hudson river clean up. That mattered enough to NYC. Probably takes the courts and recognition of loss of income


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## Fish the chop (Nov 24, 2018)

Backwater said:


> Jackie, you work for the phosphate industry? Blame shifting? I get it!
> 
> Cow shit = organics. You have naturally occurring organics anyway. It's the artificial fertilizers (nitrates and phosphates) that is doing most of the damage.


Haha yeah buck passer.. I’m no scientist nor a phosphate industry worker..and correct me if I’m wrong.. but isn’t manure fertilizer??? Just less concentrated than the artificial stuff?! I’d be willing to bet it’s contributing to the algae problem.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Fish the chop said:


> Haha yeah buck passer.. I’m no scientist nor a phosphate industry worker..and correct me if I’m wrong.. but isn’t manure fertilizer??? Just less concentrated than the artificial stuff?! I’d be willing to bet it’s contributing to the algae problem.


Yes manure is plant food. But also all the dead and dying plants that also turn into organic matter and become plant food as well. But the nitrates and phosphates are a concentrate super nutrient for plants. Algae eats it too, hence the problem. We've had organics overflowing into our waterways since the dawn of time, and only traces of naturally occurring minerals, nitrates, limestone and phosphates. But man has accelerated the mining of phosphates here in Florida and sends it all over the world. Some of which is used here in Florida and eventually ends up in our waters. The REAL concern is the phosphate infused wastewater that they create in the process of producing such phosphates, including the sulfuric acid they use to separate the actual phosphate from the rock, and... therefore they need to get rid of, that eventually ends up in our waters and therefore artificially feeds and accelerates the algae blooms and toxifies the water.


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## Fish the chop (Nov 24, 2018)

Backwater said:


> Yes manure is plant food. But also all the dead and dying plants that also turn into organic matter and become plant food as well. But the nitrates and phosphates are a concentrate super nutrient for plants. Algae eats it too, hence the problem. We've had organics overflowing into our waterways since the dawn of time, and only traces of naturally occurring minerals, nitrates, limestone and phosphates. But man has accelerated the mining of phosphates here in Florida and sends it all over the world. Some of which is used here in Florida and eventually ends up in our waters. The REAL concern is the phosphate infused wastewater that they create in the process of producing such phosphates, including the sulfuric acid they use to separate the actual phosphate from the rock, and... therefore they need to get rid of, that eventually ends up in our waters and therefore artificially feeds and accelerates the algae blooms and toxifies the water.


Thanks for that explanation backwater. I knew the phosphate business was big at one time here in Fl, but honestly was unaware that it was still going on and to what extent! We can all see now just how fragile the environment really is!! Who knows, it could be 1/2 degree change in sea temps that exacerbates the blooms?!


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Fish the chop said:


> Thanks for that explanation backwater. I knew the phosphate business was big at one time here in Fl, but honestly was unaware that it was still going on and to what extent! We can all see now just how fragile the environment really is!! Who knows, it could be 1/2 degree change in sea temps that exacerbates the blooms?!


Bingo


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## Fish the chop (Nov 24, 2018)

camp said:


> BB urban parts of Florida like Cape Coral are expanding every year despite the lack central sewers . Or any sort of plan. There are thousands of undeveloped lots some dating to the 50's and 60's unused yet the city continues to expand into new areas without services. Why? Because real estate sales are the only thing keeping their city alive. Taxpayers who own existing lots are being screwed and huge unaddressed problems grow larger every day. Ponzi scheme. This is not a migrant/immigrant problem this is a greed stupidity problem.


Unfortunately I just bought into this Ponzi scheme!


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## Fish the chop (Nov 24, 2018)

Backcountry 16 said:


> Agreed this was one of the three largest cattle states for a long time I'm thinking he's full of bs lived in swfl since birth 67 it's overpopulation and fertilizer/ septic system issues.


All I said was I believe it’s part of the equation.. I’m new in Fl and coming up to speed. Just read an article about the big phosphate waste piles north of here.. not good..


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

Fish the chop said:


> All I said was I believe it’s part of the equation.. I’m new in Fl and coming up to speed. Just read an article about the big phosphate waste piles north of here.. not good..


Yes they've rapped our land and rich politicians have become rich it should be a crime but you know how that goes.


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## ShugC (Apr 23, 2016)

Why is it necessary for everyone to have a green grass yard? I remember Florida just 30 years ago from vacations and yards were more sand than this forced green crap that we have now. We as a society need to have our green yards to remind ourselves of our up north homes yet we have abandoned those homes to move to Florida. Lets all embrace the natural plants and ground scape and do away with all the required unnatural green space, i.e. forced grass yards using to much water and to much fertilizer. if we all pitch in just a little in the reduction of fertilizers and such the total sum will be massive and just might help save our precious ocean. otherwise we are going to do better fishing in a bucket of Chlorox.

Sorry I will climb off my soap box.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Fish the chop said:


> Unfortunately I just bought into this Ponzi scheme!


well it is also a pretty


Fish the chop said:


> Unfortunately I just bought into this Ponzi scheme!


a couple informative reads from the fake news folks at Politico..."requiem for Florida, the Paradise that should never have been" and "the boom town that shouldn't exist"


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

ShugC said:


> Why is it necessary for everyone to have a green grass yard? I remember Florida just 30 years ago from vacations and yards were more sand than this forced green crap that we have now. We as a society need to have our green yards to remind ourselves of our up north homes yet we have abandoned those homes to move to Florida. Lets all embrace the natural plants and ground scape and do away with all the required unnatural green space, i.e. forced grass yards using to much water and to much fertilizer. if we all pitch in just a little in the reduction of fertilizers and such the total sum will be massive and just might help save our precious ocean. otherwise we are going to do better fishing in a bucket of Chlorox.
> 
> Sorry I will climb off my soap box.


The gov't use to promote "Floridascape/xeriscape/zeroscape (one in the same)" lawns to reduce the use of water. It was the process to elliminate grasses that required lots of water and have native plants, shell, rock and sand use in the landscaping to reduce the water requirements, thereby saving precious water usage. But somehow they stopped doing that with more and more developers installing lawns that require water, pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers. This is the main problems with the newer hybrids of St Augustine type grasses (Floratam 11 and other varieties of such). Also golf courses with hybrids of bermuda grasses.

Personally, I have an Argentine Bahia lawn that requires no watering. I don't even have a sprinkler system, except for the system I built for the landscaping, where I pipe water run-off from the roof and channel it to each plant. The plants I have don't require much extra water other than the rain water and no fertilizers either. The lawn gets no fertilizers either. When we get the winter hard freezes, it dries out (turns brown) for a month or so till the first rains of spring. I could give a rat's ass what the neighbors think during that time. But it's a part of the natural cycle of grasses here in Florida. And when you see green grass weeks after a hard freeze, you know they are hitting it hard with water and fertilized it hard with fertilizers during the course of the year.

Say "NO" to those lawn pest control/weed and lawn spraying companies that come knock on your door! When they ask me "what about the pest in your lawn?" I point out to them and say "here's my full time crew on the job taking care of business!" 










Ted Haas


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2018)

Backwater said:


> The gov't use to promote "Floridascape" lawns to reduce the use of water. It was the process to elliminate grasses that required lots of water and have native plants, shell, rock and sand use in the landscaping to reduce the water requirements, thereby saving precious water usage. But somehow they stopped doing that with more and more developers installing lawns that require water, pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers. This is the main problems with the newer hybrids of St Augustine type grasses (Floratam 11 and other varieties of such). Also golf courses with hybrids of bermuda grasses.
> 
> Personally, I have an Argentine Bahia lawn that requires no watering. I don't even have a sprinkler system, except for the system I built for the landscaping, where I pipe water run-off from the roof and channel it to each plant. The plants I have don't require much extra water other than the rain water and no fertilizers either. The lawn gets no fertilizers either. When we get the winter hard freezes, it dries out (turns brown) for a month or so till the first rains of spring. I could give a rat's ass what the neighbors think during that time. But it's a part of the natural cycle of grasses here in Florida. And when you see green grass weeks after a hard freeze, you know they are hitting it hard with water and fertilized it hard with fertilizers during the course of the year.
> 
> ...


Amen!


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## Fish the chop (Nov 24, 2018)

ShugC said:


> Why is it necessary for everyone to have a green grass yard? I remember Florida just 30 years ago from vacations and yards were more sand than this forced green crap that we have now. We as a society need to have our green yards to remind ourselves of our up north homes yet we have abandoned those homes to move to Florida. Lets all embrace the natural plants and ground scape and do away with all the required unnatural green space, i.e. forced grass yards using to much water and to much fertilizer. if we all pitch in just a little in the reduction of fertilizers and such the total sum will be massive and just might help save our precious ocean. otherwise we are going to do better fishing in a bucket of Chlorox.
> 
> Sorry I will climb off my soap box.


I refuse to be part of that.. its disgusting really...


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## ShugC (Apr 23, 2016)

Fish the chop said:


> I refuse to be part of that.. its disgusting really...


which part?


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## Fish the chop (Nov 24, 2018)

ShugC said:


> which part?


Spraying the lawn..people around here are crazy about making that shit green, and they don’t care what it costs! Slash and burn baby! These peeps just rub me the wrong way..


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## RunningOnEmpty (Jun 20, 2015)

Marker10 said:


> Nitrogen induction into the Gulf has been directly linked to the growth of Trichodesmium and K. Brevis. A start would be to control the use of fertilizer and discharge into the Peace, Caloosahatchee, and Lox Rivers. It doesn’t just rain Junglegrow, Scott’s Weed and Feed, and turfbuilder in Florida. Cleaning up discharged water before it gets to the Gulf isn’t going to hurt anyone or livelihoods.


Sending that water south to be filtered out is the only answer.


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## camp (Jul 31, 2011)

Fish the chop said:


> Spraying the lawn..people around here are crazy about making that shit green, and they don’t care what it costs! Slash and burn baby! These peeps just rub me the wrong way..


bang zoom...straight to the moon


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## Ken T (Dec 10, 2015)

RunningOnEmpty said:


> Sending that water south to be filtered out is the only answer.


Such a complex issue
Sending the water south to be filtered only opens up another can of worms. The optimum solution involves reducing the runoff, reversing changes to natural waterways, reducing nitrogen levels, Reducing human waste, reducing agricultural lands and sending clean water south. If the current water goes south the everglades environment morphs again. Imagine what new things will be taking over the landscape with even higher nitrogen levels.

Bob Lemay once recommended reading the book the Swamp, I second that recommendation. It will give you a much better grasp of the complexities of the South Florida environment, Florida politics and the mistakes of the past.

Ken.


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## Fish the chop (Nov 24, 2018)

camp said:


> bang zoom...straight to the moon


[email protected]!% It..I'm filling my yard in with crushed shells!


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Ken T said:


> Such a complex issue
> Sending the water south to be filtered only opens up another can of worms. ...
> 
> Ken.


For sure sending it South is not the answer, that just moves the problem in a different direction.

If the politicians are dead set on not addressing the problems at the source the only other solution is filter and clean the water before sending it anywhere as well as fixing that failing dam surrounding that big lake so the water does not have to be dumped in mass quantities in the first place.


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## Backcountry 16 (Mar 15, 2016)

I have been neglecting my action craft lately as I have purchased a new skiff so I decided to go to the river just to run the boat. The water wasn't as bad as I would have expected but I still stayed out of the water but not everyone seems to be concerned as I passed this person wakr boarding and I was scratching my head.


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## Cam (Apr 5, 2017)

Pretty much everyone knows what got us here... voting for anti-environmental politicians, golf courses, farming, etc.

After this last election and seeing Red Tide Rick still in there and yet another business at all cost over environment governor... I just don't want to hear about water issues from people in our area any more. Nothing is going to change with the water situation with this current group of clowns in office.

Sadly we know it can be done as Tampa's bay reversal has been astonishing but it took a president, a community that voted to correct the water issues and the EPA to make it happen.


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

Ken T said:


> Such a complex issue
> Sending the water south to be filtered only opens up another can of worms. The optimum solution involves reducing the runoff, reversing changes to natural waterways, reducing nitrogen levels, Reducing human waste, reducing agricultural lands and sending clean water south. If the current water goes south the everglades environment morphs again. Imagine what new things will be taking over the landscape with even higher nitrogen levels.
> 
> Bob Lemay once recommended reading the book the Swamp, I second that recommendation. It will give you a much better grasp of the complexities of the South Florida environment, Florida politics and the mistakes of the past.
> ...


I have that book sitting on my bookshelf to read, I need to make time to read it.


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## Fishshoot (Oct 26, 2017)

https://www.bradenton.com/news/loca...Frp-yqI6JvXMUOJlHjzPtY7-BYBRNoQ5It-sKUV3lsyUA


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

Yeah great, just as I thought we were over it...

Scenes from Dec 7th. This is part of the major mullet pre-spawn grouping up. All these mullet are full of roe! They are trying to get them out of the preserve because it's an attraction to the area where otherwise, the stench of dead fish would keep people out of the park till after the holidays. Very sad!









https://www.facebook.com/Robinson.Preserve/photos/a.376885188998328/2148498418503654/?type=3&theater


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2016)

Took a ride around the island yesterday and the water quality in south Matlacha and PIS is not nearly as clean as the northern halves. Lots of brown algae and sea lettuce smothering the bottom. I’m guessing because the water is nutrient rich from discharges and runoff.


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Recently saw a good video aired by CBS... "Everglades: Where Politics, Money and Race Collide", kind a says it like it is...


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

krash said:


> Recent vsaw a good video aired by CBS... "Everglades: Where Politics, Money and Race Collide", kind a says it like it is...


Best explanation of the politics involved I have seen. Ag subsidy status quo.


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## 7WT (Feb 12, 2016)

Saw the best Everglades history on PBS. Excellent history of the everglades and time line of its destruction. If you have not seen this I recommend watching. Perhaps this has been listed prior:
https://www.pbs.org/video/the-swamp-ij97wu/


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

7WT said:


> Saw the best Everglades history on PBS. Excellent history of the everglades and time line of its destruction. If you have not seen this I recommend watching. Perhaps this has been listed prior:
> https://www.pbs.org/video/the-swamp-ij97wu/


https://www.microskiff.com/threads/pbs-american-experience-the-everglades.60162/

It was very good! I don't understand why we have a Boles HS - that guy was a cheat and a scoundrel


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## fjmaverick (Sep 18, 2015)

There is a lot that plays into the algae blooms. The nutrients that create the algae blooms are also the blooms source of energy. At a certain point the original nutrients that caused the bloom disappear completely because they are consumed by the algae. 

Sugar got a lot of pressure for polluting Lake O but they also have a lot of money to research and make there own publications. To me they chose a different set of data that cant really be compared to the way researchers are measuring Red Tide. The sugar research lists everything is flow volume which is a lot harder to calculate than you would think. Where other researchers are testing a specific area. I think they are part of it but I don't think its as big as they make it out to be. 

They took a rainwater sample at our local botanical gardens and it had high nitrogen and phosphorus content. 

The new thing they are looking at are how septic systems are impacting water quality. Also if combustion motors on I75 are influencing it at all.

The way I understand it is the water has to be clean for the algae blooms to stop. In order to clean the water we have to clean the dirt.


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## Backwater (Dec 14, 2014)

https://www.bradenton.com/news/loca...aiPBWkN81TuAKAdb2_eplI3vDywcyyPIqM6F6kZprpW9E


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## krash (Jan 9, 2007)

Army Core is holding meetings about Lake 'O and allowing public to attend and/or offer suggestions and comments. (Several meetings have passed), if you want to get involved go to a meeting and fill their ear's..

*Lake Okeechobee System Operating Manual (LOSOM), a component of the Central & Southern Florida (C&SF) System Operating Plan*

*The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Jacksonville District invites the public to provide scoping input on the development of the new Lake Okeechobee System Operating Manual (LOSOM). A series of National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) public scoping meetings will be held throughout south Florida during the month of February and public scoping comments will be accepted until March 31, 2019.

The purpose of this effort is to reevaluate and define operations for the Lake Okeechobee regulation schedule that take into account additional infrastructure that will soon be operational. The additional infrastructure that will be taken into consideration includes the Herbert Hoover Dike rehabilitation, Kissimmee River Restoration Project, as well as the Comprehensive Everglades Restoration Plan (CERP) C-43 West Basin Storage Reservoir and C-44 Reservoir and Stormwater Treatment Area.


water control plan from 2008. It is available for reference at: https://usace.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getfile/collection/p16021coll7/id/8423

Public scoping meetings scheduled for the Lake Okeechobee System Operations Manual (LOSOM)

Lehigh Acres
Tuesday, February 5, 2019, 1 p.m. - 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. - 8 p.m.
Lee County Mosquito Control District Training Center
15191 Homestead Road, Lehigh Acres, FL 33971

Okeechobee
Wednesday, February 6, 2019, 6 p.m. – 8 p.m.
Indian River State College
Williamson Conference and Education Center
2229 N.W. 9th Avenue, Okeechobee, FL 34972

Clewiston
Monday, February 11, 2019, 6 p.m. - 8 p.m.
John Boy Auditorium
1200 South W.C. Owen Ave, Clewiston, FL 33440

Stuart
Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 1 p.m. - 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. – 8 p.m.
Indian River State College
The Clare and Gladys Wolf High-Technology Center
2400 SE Salerno Road, Stuart, FL 34997

Fort Lauderdale
Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 3:30 to 5:30
Broward County Main Library
6th Floor Exhibit Area
100 S Andrews Avenue,
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Note: Meeting will run 3:30 to 5:30 with doors open at 3

West Palm Beach
Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 6 p.m. – 8 p.m.
South Florida Water Management District
Governing Board Auditorium
3301 Gun Club Road, West Palm Beach, FL 33406

Miami Gardens
Thursday, February 28, 2019, 5:30 p.m. - 7:30 p.m.
North Dade Regional Library
2455 NW 183rd Street, Miami Gardens, FL 33056

Public Scoping Comments

The public comment period ends on March 31, 2019.

Submit comments by email:
[email protected]usace.army.mil

Submit comments by mail:
Dr. Ann Hodgson
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Jacksonville District
P.O. Box 4970
Jacksonville, FL 32232-0019


Reference Documents (Archive)
Lake Okeechobee Regulation Schedule (LORS) 2008
CENTRAL AND SOUTHERN FLORIDA PROJECT
WATER CONTROL PLAN FOR LAKE OKEECHOBEE AND EVERGLADES AGRICULTURAL AREA (March 2008)

Lake Okeechobee Regulation Schedule Record of Decision (ROD) (July 7, 2000)

LAKE OKEECHOBEE REGULATION SCHEDULE STUDY Final Environmental Impact Statement (EIS)/WSE
Simulation of Alternative Operational Schedules for Lake Okeechobee. Final Report - Appendix A Water Quality Modeling Results -Appendix B WSE Implementation Plan - Appendix C (June 1999)

LAKE OKEECHOBEE REGULATION SCHEDULE STUDY
ERRATA TO THE FINAL ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT (March 31, 2000)





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