# EPA Termination of Obama Climate Plan - Impact on 2 Strokes?



## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

How awesome would that be? It would be very nice to swap out the 4 stroke 70 for a 90 that weighed the same.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

The Clean Power Plan has to do with carbon emissions from Power Plants, not outboards


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## Joe Mattingly (Oct 9, 2017)

yobata said:


> The Clean Power Plan has to do with carbon emissions from Power Plants, not outboards


What is the EPA rule that impacts outboards?


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Joe Mattingly said:


> Will this impact the availability of lighter weight 2 stroke outboards that are currently banned for sale (new) in the USA?


It will absolutely not impact 2 stroke motors at all. The days of light weight smokey two strokes are long behind us. We already have 200 pound 50hp four strokes. There is zero reason to go backwards.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

yobata said:


> The Clean Power Plan has to do with carbon emissions from Power Plants, not outboards


Hey, hey, hey.. that's just way too rigid for the current year. And what if the outboard identifies as a water craft power plant? What then? Its soo mean spirited to me.


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## Joe Mattingly (Oct 9, 2017)

jmrodandgun said:


> It will absolutely not impact 2 stroke motors at all. The days of light weight smokey two strokes are long behind us. We already have 200 pound 50hp four strokes. There is zero reason to go backwards.


Do you know the law/rule that bans the old 2 strokes? I would like a Tohatsu 2 stroke carb 40 due to weight. 4 stroke alternatives are too heavy.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

There is no law banning 2 strokes, Etec and Tohatsu still make 2 stroke motors. There have been new emissions standards which the carbed 2 strokes are not able to meet


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## Joe Mattingly (Oct 9, 2017)

yobata said:


> There is no law banning 2 strokes, Etec and Tohatsu still make 2 stroke motors. There have been new emissions standards which the carbed 2 strokes are not able to meet


I understand this. What is the rule guiding the standards and under what act/decision/implementation standard does said rule fall? Is that rule not a part of the EPA guidance being lifted tomorrow?


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## tjtfishon (Feb 9, 2016)

Joe Mattingly said:


> I understand this. What is the rule guiding the standards and under what act/decision/implementation standard does said rule fall? Is that rule not a part of the EPA guidance being lifted tomorrow?


It is mostly related to CARB/California Air Resource Board which has much more authority than even the EPA as it relates to California and the 10 states that have adopted the standard. If an outboard manufacturer wants to sell a motor in California, they need to meet the CARB standard. It is not cost effective for most companies to make one product for CA rules and another for the rest of the country. An exception is automobiles which are made to two standards: 50 State and Federal.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

Joe Mattingly said:


> I understand this. What is the rule guiding the standards and under what act/decision/implementation standard does said rule fall? Is that rule not a part of the EPA guidance being lifted tomorrow?


I believe this is what you're looking for: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...&node=pt40.36.1045&rgn=div5#se40.36.1045_1101

This link may also be helpful if you are going to dig deeper: https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emi...tions-emissions-marine-spark-ignition-engines


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

Joe Mattingly said:


> Is that rule not a part of the EPA guidance being lifted tomorrow?


This is irrelevant. There is little to no demand for carbed two strokes with the new modern lightweight fuel injected 4 strokes.

Just because something is no longer regulated does not necessary mean people are going to start doing it. It's not like you're going to see manufacturers abandon new tech that has hundreds of millions of dollar in R&D in favor of old carbed 2 strokes.

Even if they could, I doubt there is enough demand out there for a smokey 2 stroke.


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## Joe Mattingly (Oct 9, 2017)

tjtfishon said:


> It is mostly related to CARB/California Air Resource Board which has much more authority than even the EPA as it relates to California and the 10 states that have adopted the standard. If an outboard manufacturer wants to sell a motor in California, they need to meet the CARB standard. It is not cost effective for most companies to make one product for CA rules and another for the rest of the country. An exception is automobiles which are made to two standards: 50 State and Federal.


2 stroke carb engines are not available for sale in the United States. They are available in other countries. There is some law/rule restricting the sale of certain engines. It is not a California law as they are not for sale anywhere in the US.


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## Joe Mattingly (Oct 9, 2017)

yobata said:


> I believe this is what you're looking for: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...&node=pt40.36.1045&rgn=div5#se40.36.1045_1101
> 
> This link may also be helpful if you are going to dig deeper: https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emi...tions-emissions-marine-spark-ignition-engines


Thanks, it would appear that it is EPA driven. I'll reach out directly to the manufacturers for more info.

Thanks


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## Joe Mattingly (Oct 9, 2017)

jmrodandgun said:


> This is irrelevant. There is little to no demand for carbed two strokes with the new modern lightweight fuel injected 4 strokes.
> 
> Just because something is no longer regulated does not necessary mean people are going to start doing it. It's not like you're going to see manufacturers abandon new tech that has hundreds of millions of dollar in R&D in favor of old carbed 2 strokes.
> 
> Even if they could, I doubt there is enough demand out there for a smokey 2 stroke.


Manufacturers still make them, they just don't sell them in the US. If they are legal, you could have a dealer in another country ship one to you. They have applications where there is no viable substitute which is why 2008 models have significant value well over the normal value of a 9 year old motor.

Thanks


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## tjtfishon (Feb 9, 2016)

Joe Mattingly said:


> Manufacturers still make them, they just don't sell them in the US. If they are legal, you could have a dealer in another country ship one to you. They have applications where there is no viable substitute which is why 2008 models have significant value well over the normal value of a 9 year old motor.
> 
> Thanks


And they don't have parts, technical support or warranties in the US either. There is much more to selling a product than simply having it available.


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## Joe Mattingly (Oct 9, 2017)

tjtfishon said:


> And they don't have parts, technical support or warranties in the US either. There is much more to selling a product than simply having it available.


I'm not particularly concerned about these issues. Most mechanics are very good with them and parts are available via mail order. The motor I want is not super expensive so the warranty is less of a concern. I imagine worst case I can still get a manufacturers warranty.


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## tjtfishon (Feb 9, 2016)

Joe Mattingly said:


> I'm not particularly concerned about these issues. Most mechanics are very good with them and parts are available via mail order. The motor I want is not super expensive so the warranty is less of a concern. I imagine worst case I can still get a manufacturers warranty.


You may not be, but of the even small number of boaters in the market for this product, many of them will be further lowering demand


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## Joe Mattingly (Oct 9, 2017)

tjtfishon said:


> You may not be, but of the even small number of boaters in the market for this product, many of them will be further lowering demand


If the motors are allowed, there will be dealers that will have them and normal warranties will be in effect. While the demand may not be as robust as in the past, there is a niche market and dealers in those areas will make the motors available. 

If I find out more I'll report back.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

jmrodandgun said:


> It will absolutely not impact 2 stroke motors at all. The days of light weight smokey two strokes are long behind us. We already have 200 pound 50hp four strokes. There is zero reason to go backwards.


I’ll take my Yamaha 70 2smoke Over the F70 all day long.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

The 2008 Yamaha 50 2 stroke was 187 lbs (remote). My 2016 direct injected hatsu 50 2 stroke is I believe 208 lbs (tiller). Although I love the last gen Yamaha 2 strokes I'm not sure I would go back to carbs for a 21 lb savings. Anything but a 4 stroke though.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

The thought of not having to think about bad injectors, compressors and computers is tempting though.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

devrep said:


> The thought of not having to think about bad injectors, compressors and computers is tempting though.


Kind of like an old Chevy 350 vs a new Chinese diesel truck you can’t work on.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

yeah but the fuel burn on the injected 2 strokes is so much better.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

A few thoughts about this topic.... Yes, everyone remembers how those old relatively lightweight, carbed two strokes worked pretty well -if you didn't have to think about just how dirty they ran (and how much raw fuel/oil mix wound up in the water...). Way back when, boats were designed specifically for those light weight motors - but the moment you provide a competent marine designer the actual weight of the motors intended (think heavier four strokes...) it's actually not difficult to design transom and beam elements that allow you to use a slightly heavier motor -with no downsides at all - as far as performance and draft are concerned....

It was more than thirty years ago that all of the motor builders agreed to phase out carbed two strokes (most believing that it would be a simple matter to go with fuel injected two strokes) -but the reality was - they didn't work very well at all (and had a nasty habit of catastrophic failure --Merc's Opti-max, Yammie's HPDI, the Evinrude FICHT....). Yes, they eventually worked out the bugs - but not before most decided that four strokes were a better way forward (OMC, Evinrude, was sent down the path to bankruptcy - with warranty claims for those FICHT motors greasing the skids....). Once the move to four strokes was well underway came all the magazine article touting them (and very carefully neglecting to mention any downsides....). Gradually boat makers caught up and began designing hulls for the heavier motors.... The only folks with a problem were those with older hulls that just weren't meant to have a heavy motor on the transom...

In the meantime bankrupt OMC (Johnson, Evinrude) was bought out by Bombardier and the Evinrude brand came back to life (I was caught in 2001 when OMC went down - and lost 18 months of warranty....). When OMC went down they had the E-Tec system in their stable - but never had the funds to bring it to market - and that's just what BRP did... with a completely new computer controlled production line - and the rest is history, two stroke motors were back in a big way, but now they're a different animal, fuel injected computer controlled -and no mechanical injection either... In short E-Tecs are just much, much cleaner burning two strokes. They're emissions control is so good that they're actually cleaner burning than any four stroke currently available.... Places in Europe (small freshwater lakes) with super stringent water quality rules will allow an E-Tec to operate there (and no other outboard motor....).

Yes, these newer two strokes need factory trained techs - and are designed to be worked on while hooked up to a computer that has the correct software for that year/model... Not exactly something for a shadetree mechanic... Yes, the lower units aren't much different than any other motor - but BRP has been smart there as well... A quick "for instance" is my 90 - the lower unit for it is the larger one that used to be only for a V-4... and the fluid in it is fully synthetic... How else were they able to have that 300 hour maintenance cycle that every other manufacturer can't match?

If I were operating down in the Amazon - an old carbed two stroke would be my first choice since they're much simple to keep running - but not here in America... I've been lucky enough to be on BRP's guide program now (I was on OMC's for six years until they disappeared on me...) since 2002 and running E-Tec 90's since they first became available (2005). Other than a break in the initial purchase price I get no freebies -and stand in line for my maintenance like everyone else.... 

You can speculate all you want about what "the EPA" does or doesn't do - but I doubt you'll ever see carbed two strokes available again - at least not in any places where they care about water quality....


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## SomaliPirate (Feb 5, 2016)

I just like the sound and smell of my 2smoker Yammy firing up. I'll stick with it for as long as practically possible.


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

I love the smell of the 2 stroke in the morning..........


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## Joe Mattingly (Oct 9, 2017)

lemaymiami said:


> A few thoughts about this topic.... Yes, everyone remembers how those old relatively lightweight, carbed two strokes worked pretty well -if you didn't have to think about just how dirty they ran (and how much raw fuel/oil mix wound up in the water...). Way back when, boats were designed specifically for those light weight motors - but the moment you provide a competent marine designer the actual weight of the motors intended (think heavier four strokes...) it's actually not difficult to design transom and beam elements that allow you to use a slightly heavier motor -with no downsides at all - as far as performance and draft are concerned....
> 
> It was more than thirty years ago that all of the motor builders agreed to phase out carbed two strokes (most believing that it would be a simple matter to go with fuel injected two strokes) -but the reality was - they didn't work very well at all (and had a nasty habit of catastrophic failure --Merc's Opti-max, Yammie's HPDI, the Evinrude FICHT....). Yes, they eventually worked out the bugs - but not before most decided that four strokes were a better way forward (OMC, Evinrude, was sent down the path to bankruptcy - with warranty claims for those FICHT motors greasing the skids....). Once the move to four strokes was well underway came all the magazine article touting them (and very carefully neglecting to mention any downsides....). Gradually boat makers caught up and began designing hulls for the heavier motors.... The only folks with a problem were those with older hulls that just weren't meant to have a heavy motor on the transom...
> 
> ...


Where I fish, and where I want to pole, require old school hull designs with the lighter transoms (think pre 2004 glades skiff or custom made). The modern transom and incremental ~25 pounds on the motor are a substantial performance inhibitor. For me it is 100% about performance. I need to pole over 2" at times, and that 50 lbs (combo of increased transom weight and increased motor weight) can be the difference.

Not following the logic that we won't see carbed 2 strokes irrespective of what the EPA does. If they are legal I will have one on my boat regardless of whether they are carried by local dealers. I'm not trying to speculate about the EPA or what other people will do, I'm trying to understand the current guidelines. If the 2smoke is legal I'll have one shipped from a foreign dealer and put it on a pre 2005 or custom made skiff.

Appreciate the feedback.


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## Joe Mattingly (Oct 9, 2017)

SomaliPirate said:


> I just like the sound and smell of my 2smoker Yammy firing up. I'll stick with it for as long as practically possible.


Perhaps you'll be able to buy a new one.


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## commtrd (Aug 1, 2015)

If Evinrude could get the weight down some and improve the reliability they would be un-beatable as power for these shallow water skiffs. Although I had a 90 eTec on my last Shallowsport and it was flawless but always hear of someone bitching about Evinrudes breaking etc. I have never been super impressed with the Yamaha F70 on my boat but then all I ever had on all my boats was a 2 stroke cycle engine. I keep hoping that Evinrude will someday update their lower displacement Outboards and I can retro-fit a 90 on my HB. Would love to go back to a 2 stroke.


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

Joe Mattingly said:


> Where I fish, and where I want to pole, require old school hull designs with the lighter transoms (think pre 2004 glades skiff or custom made). The modern transom and incremental ~25 pounds on the motor are a substantial performance inhibitor. For me it is 100% about performance. I need to pole over 2" at times, and that 50 lbs (combo of increased transom weight and increased motor weight) can be the difference.
> 
> Not following the logic that we won't see carbed 2 strokes irrespective of what the EPA does. If they are legal I will have one on my boat regardless of whether they are carried by local dealers. I'm not trying to speculate about the EPA or what other people will do, I'm trying to understand the current guidelines. If the 2smoke is legal I'll have one shipped from a foreign dealer and put it on a pre 2005 or custom skiff.
> 
> Appreciate the feedback.


I use Hydrotec for upgrades to the Yamaha 2 strokes and have been since 1990, Chris Carson for Mercury 2 strokes. You can read a lot of information on Scream and Fly Site. My current 2 stroke 25 Yamaha 2 cyl modded is good but the 3 cyl is the best to upgrade for highest hp/weight ratio. 106# for 2 cyl 25 vs 130# for the 3 cyl, the 3 cyl can be modded to 50 with bolt on parts. Yamaha parts are available thru Hydrotec...


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## sjrobin (Jul 13, 2015)

Joe Mattingly said:


> Perhaps you'll be able to buy a new one.


The new Yamaha 4s 25 HP at 125 lbs(plain model) is perfect for your 2003 Glades skiff and a lot better for your local water and lungs and everyone else's health. Free market technology rules. I owned a 2003 Glades skiff for twelve years.
Future power plant designs or even current power generators are not going to plan on increasing emmissions. The free market natural gas abundance is creating a tough market for coal fired generators. Just like Trump deciding to back out of the Paris climate accords with no real effect on private sector plans to reduce emissions and in spite of recommendations against it.


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

sjrobin said:


> The new Yamaha 4s 25 HP at 125 lbs(plain model) is perfect for your 2003 Glades skiff and a lot better for your local water and lungs and everyone else's health. Free market technology rules. I owned a 2003 Glades skiff for twelve years.
> Future power plant designs or even current power generators are not going to plan on increasing emmissions. The free market natural gas abundance is creating a tough market for coal fired generators. Just like Trump deciding to back out of the Paris climate accords with no real effect on private sector plans to reduce emissions and in spite of recommendations against it.


Wow! Good luck when you have to have that motor serviced, as you probably won't be able to do it yourself, $$$$..!


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

For those of us that wish the E-Tec (particularly the smaller motors.. and you can include me in that number...) would come in a lighter weight... I've been told by my dealer (Sea Power in south Dade) that it won't ever happen since the system requires a much heavier flywheel and a beefed up lower unit (internally my 90 actually runs on a 48volt system...). My 90 at 320 is definitely heavier than those old Yammie 90 2 strokes (that were in the vicinity of 260) but still lighter than comparable 4 strokes...

As far as reliability goes - I seem to recall that most complaints stem from areas with weak BRP service options... I'm on my third E-tec - and it's been out of warranty now since 2015 (it's a 2012 model) and doing just fine. Yesterday we clocked 78 miles round trip through the backcountry out of Flamingo in places where you've always been on your own....


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## jmrodandgun (Sep 20, 2013)

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Wow! Good luck when you have to have that motor serviced, as you probably won't be able to do it yourself, $$$$..!


This is patently false.


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## Smackdaddy53 (Dec 31, 2012)

You guys think 2 stroke outboards are harmful to the environment? More oil and natural contaminants leech into the bays and waterways naturally in a day than all 2 stroke motors in several lifetimes. As far as man-made contamination you guys should see the oil and gas wells in the bays all over the Texas coast leaking crude oil and natural gas from old pipe and fittings. I think everyone should start riding bicycles to work and paddling kayaks if they want to save the environment. Hanging a 4 stroke on your boat is a drop in a really big bucket.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

I have zero interest in 4 stokes. They were sold to us like Obamacare and its a pig in a poke. I went thru this with mx bikes. heavy pigs needing twice the displacement to do the same thing. They have come a long ways since 2000 but now a new mx bike costs 10K and when (not if) it blows it costs 2 or 3 K to rebuild and most guys can't do it themselves.


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## Godzuki86 (Nov 30, 2013)

devrep said:


> I have zero interest in 4 stokes. They were sold to us like Obamacare and its a pig in a poke. I went thru this with mx bikes. heavy pigs needing twice the displacement to do the same thing. They have come a long ways since 2000 but now a new mx bike costs 10K and when (not if) it blows it costs 2 or 3 K to rebuild and most guys can't do it themselves.


I'm just the opposite. I have no interest in a 2 stroke anymore. I gained 24 lbs by going to my 4 stroke 115. The new motor is smoother, quieter and burns a ton less fuel. That's a big deal when you run 80+ miles everytime you fish.


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

that's a hell of a long run. don't underestimate the fuel mileage the direct injected 2 strokes get.


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

Godzuki86 said:


> I'm just the opposite. I have no interest in a 2 stroke anymore. I gained 24 lbs by going to my 4 stroke 115. The new motor is smoother, quieter and burns a ton less fuel. That's a big deal when you run 80+ miles everytime you fish.


I have a 1997 2.5 efi merc 150 on my shipoke and its paid for, to replace it with a 4 stroke 115 would cost me 7500 / 9000. That's lots of gas you can buy, and at only 5 mpg cruise I still can't justify the 4 stroke. Except for the Merc 115 at the same weight as the 2 stroke Yamaha, just my personal situation. I fish about 2/3 days a week and the distance varies 20-50 miles, and wintertime seas dictates which boat I use. Rough Shipoke, calm Spear....


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

lemaymiami said:


> For those of us that wish the E-Tec (particularly the smaller motors.. and you can include me in that number...) would come in a lighter weight... I've been told by my dealer (Sea Power in south Dade) that it won't ever happen since the system requires a much heavier flywheel and a beefed up lower unit (internally my 90 actually runs on a 48volt system...). My 90 at 320 is definitely heavier than those old Yammie 90 2 strokes (that were in the vicinity of 260) but still lighter than comparable 4 strokes...
> 
> As far as reliability goes - I seem to recall that most complaints stem from areas with weak BRP service options... I'm on my third E-tec - and it's been out of warranty now since 2015 (it's a 2012 model) and doing just fine. Yesterday we clocked 78 miles round trip through the backcountry out of Flamingo in places where you've always been on your own....


My Yamaha mechanic, mentioned to me that the E-tec motors are the most difficult to have factory support for parts/repair/computer/cooperation...


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

sjrobin said:


> The new Yamaha 4s 25 HP at 125 lbs(plain model) is perfect for your 2003 Glades skiff and a lot better for your local water and lungs and everyone else's health. Free market technology rules. I owned a 2003 Glades skiff for twelve years.
> Future power plant designs or even current power generators are not going to plan on increasing emmissions. The free market natural gas abundance is creating a tough market for coal fired generators. Just like Trump deciding to back out of the Paris climate accords with no real effect on private sector plans to reduce emissions and in spite of recommendations against it.


Sounds like a Obxxxx supporter............


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## Godzuki86 (Nov 30, 2013)

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> I have a 1997 2.5 efi merc 150 on my shipoke and its paid for, to replace it with a 4 stroke 115 would cost me 7500 / 9000. That's lots of gas you can buy, and at only 5 mpg cruise I still can't justify the 4 stroke. Except for the Merc 115 at the same weight as the 2 stroke Yamaha, just my personal situation. I fish about 2/3 days a week and the distance varies 20-50 miles, and wintertime seas dictates which boat I use. Rough Shipoke, calm Spear....


You’re comparing apples to oranges. We aren’t talking repower. If you built a new boat you don’t get a 2 stroke for free. 

In your case it doesn’t make sense to re power to save fuel. But a 115 optimax doesn’t cost much less than a new four stroke. The only difference is I can hear myself talk and I don’t have to worry about 2 cycle oil. 

I just simply said that for my application a four stroke is better.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

No bait... Not sure how to reply to that. I make a point of never knocking other motor makes (since one day I might have one... being a guide changes how you operate a bit....). If you actually believe what your "Yamaha Mechanic" told you about Evinrudes - you're doing yourself a dis-service. On more than one occasion I've said very clearly that E-Tecs need a factory trained technician with the correct software for that year/model motor - and that taking one to anyone else is a bad idea... I've also said that if your area doesn't have a strong BRP dealer within reasonable distance, then you'd be better off with someone else's motor.... The only time I ever had an issue that waited on parts to be resolved was way back when they first came out (2005 if I remember correctly) and I had one of the first 90's down here in south florida... It took about a week to get the new software needed then a day or two later I was back up and running.

To put it mildly my motors are in severe commercial service so maintenance and "fixing what broke" are priorities for me. Every day I'm down in season when I may be booked days on end without a break costs me bad enough to hurt... so I wouldn't put up with what your mechanic claims... By the way, over the years I've worked at more than one boat show in whatever BRP booth was going on.. I always get a kick at techs and reps from other motor outfits coming by to see what their outfit isn't doing....


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## zthomas (Jan 14, 2014)

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> I love the smell of the 2 stroke in the morning..........


Smells like ... hole shot.


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## jsnipes (May 1, 2011)

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Sounds like a Obxxxx supporter............


I can't believe there is a thread that exists where people are blaming Obama for the loss of their 2 stroke engines and naively think that somehow they are going to come back all of a sudden. Economics - how does it work.


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## CurtisWright (May 9, 2012)

No Bait / Lures Only said:


> Sounds like a Obxxxx supporter............


TroLLLLLLLLL

Haha Its a game where everything is made up and the points don't matter


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

Godzuki86 said:


> You’re comparing apples to oranges. We aren’t talking repower. If you built a new boat you don’t get a 2 stroke for free.
> 
> In your case it doesn’t make sense to re power to save fuel. But a 115 optimax doesn’t cost much less than a new four stroke. The only difference is I can hear myself talk and I don’t have to worry about 2 cycle oil.
> 
> I just simply said that for my application a four stroke is better.


 and I don't have to deal with regular oil changes and oil filters.


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## Godzuki86 (Nov 30, 2013)

devrep said:


> and I don't have to deal with regular oil changes and oil filters.


If that floats your boat 

Four stroke oil changes are blown out of proportion anyways. People act like it’s rocket science to change oil once a year.


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## yobata (Jul 14, 2015)

CurtisWright said:


> TroLLLLLLLLL
> 
> Haha Its a game where everything is made up and the points don't matter


Whose line is it anyway Or At Midnight


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## devrep (Feb 22, 2009)

so its rocket science to fill an oil tank?


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## Godzuki86 (Nov 30, 2013)

devrep said:


> so its rocket science to fill an oil tank?


I never said it was rocket science to fill an oil tank. We get it, you think 4 strokes suck. Cool story. The good news is YOU don't have to buy one.


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

I love this thread!!! Stumbled into it and now I have to post my two ruble's worth. 

Here on the Left Coast, the smell of the now-legal weed will overcome by far ANY two-stroke smoke, in volume and in density. Yet the local social justice warriors will battle incessantly in order to ban your dirty, stinking, global warming two-stroke, quick as can be. They prefer to revel in the stupefying vapors of mind-altering, lazy-ass creating weed. 

The population of California can now communally relax, knowing that the evil and smoke-generating two-stroke outboard has been banned forever from our green, low carbon-footprint, harmony-with-nature, drug-infused socialist utopia. I envy all of you who live in America.

From the People's Unified Front Republik of Kalifornik

Angel

PS: Own a 200 Optimax now and owned a 40 E-tek up through last year. They don't smoke and they are light and powerful. Oh did I mention they sip gas too? Not a 4-stroke but pretty close. Sadly, I am from the carburetor world. I can fiddle with those with positive end results. Hate taking my motors to the shop for "maintenance", but that's progress I gather.


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

The thread I thought I was replying to:
_*EPA Termination of Obama... *_

*Happy Friday!*


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## Angel Sanchez-Figueras (Sep 28, 2017)

It’s hijack Friday!!! What do you expect!!


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## EdK13 (Oct 3, 2013)

Angel Sanchez-Figueras said:


> It’s hijack Friday!!! What do you expect!!


Or is it Hijinx Friday? Or is it High Jinks or Hijinks Friday. Eh- its Friday.


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## BM_Barrelcooker (May 4, 2011)

I'm loving my new little Suzuki 20. 

97 pounds. 

And I still love my old merc 2 banger too !!

It's all good.


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## No Bait / Lures Only (Apr 10, 2011)

Wow!!!!!!


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