# Perfection loop vs surgeon loop



## Loogie (Jul 24, 2019)

Best loop knot is the Steve Huff double figure 8 knot for sure. The Triple surgeons loop knot is the most efficient when needed and not in a hurry. Just my experience speaking, and I am comfortable with those knots.


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## Mdees88 (Jun 23, 2021)

I ordered some tippet and leader making material and it should be here by the end of the week. I will be testing all of my connections with a scale. I'm primarily concerned with the tippet to leader and to tippet to bite tippet connections (surgeons knot, uni to uni, and blood knot, etc). But I will go ahead and test the loop knots as well and do a write up on it. I plan on going after some line class records and want the strongest connections possible.... and I like testing things, lol.


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## 8w8n8 (Sep 30, 2017)

I would have assumed Lefty preferred and used the Kreh Loop. Some also call it the Non-Slip Loop ... others say the two loops are different.


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## BrownDog (Jun 22, 2019)

I use the surgeon to double braid before attaching to a leader

fly leaders I have always used a perfection loop to the line and a rapala loop knot to the fly.


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## karstopo (Nov 28, 2019)

Which part? I don’t like surgeon’s loops as they look clunky, lumpy and form a crook in the leader when used between sections, but I guess they work. I tied them early on, then went on to perfection loops, blood knots and rapala loops. IMO, Blood knots look infinitely better section to section, but are they stronger, who knows? Generally, what breaks is the tippet and that’s almost always operator error or something sharp involved, not the questionable knot strength of any of the knots mentioned.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Mdees88 said:


> I ordered some tippet and leader making material and it should be here by the end of the week. I will be testing all of my connections with a scale. I'm primarily concerned with the tippet to leader and to tippet to bite tippet connections (surgeons knot, uni to uni, and blood knot, etc). But I will go ahead and test the loop knots as well and do a write up on it. I plan on going after some line class records and want the strongest connections possible.... and I like testing things, lol.


Thanks man can't wait. I may test the surgeon knot vs the perfection. I'm Lefty's book he suggested to use a bucket of sand attach to the line and keep adding sand till it breaks, them weigh the bucket


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

It depends which weight rod I am rigging, but I have pretty do all my leaders same, Butt section to fly line nail knot, perfection knot to perfection knot from butt section to next section, blood knot or improved blood knot (improved blood knot for bigger game rods) to tippet and same to bite tippet, no slip loop knot to fly. I like to be able to change out a leader without changing the butt section so that is why I use a loop to loop connection at the end of the butt section. It is not as strong as some knots, but the tippet will break before the loop to loop. I think I may try using the Huffnagle loop knot for that connection and see how it works.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

For end of butt to fly line I use a perfection loop. I don't use loops in my actual leaders. Those connections are uni to uni. For attaching the fly I use a No Slip loop unless tarpon fishing then its the improved Homer Rhodes loop knot.

FWIW testing different connections is a fine idea. It removes one variable from the equation that is in the anglers control. However two words of caution:
1. Be sure that the knots/loops you tie to test are the exact same as when you are actually fishing. The problem here is that sitting in your den you can take time to do a really good knot. But when sitting out on a rocking boat in the midst of fishing or in poor light can you tie that same knot equally as well? Sometimes you are better off using a lesser knot that you can tie 100% than a better knot that you don't tie as well when actually fishing.
2. As to testing just remember that many times (most?) when a connection breaks its because of two factors and testing doesn't give you this data.
a. It was poorly tied.
b. It was a quick shock to the system. Testing can do this but at home most testing you can do is just straight line pull. That is good data but it isn't what usually causes a failure.

Oh and one clarification. Far too many guys don't understand this when it comes to a surgeon. A surgeon is 2 times through for each "amount" In other words a double surgeons is 4 times through not twice. A triple surgeons is 6 times through not 3.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Here's my new setup, butt section nail knot to Fly line. Then surgeon knot loop to loop to leader. Leader has blood knots to the class, surgeon knot then the class is a bimini on one end this is attached to the leader with a surgeon knot. For carp, bass,reds no bite, but if I need a bite, tarpon, a slim beauty knot. @FlyBy used the bimini and I think it's an easy way to change class


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## Nway93 (May 9, 2016)

I don’t like loops at all if I can avoid it. The only time I will use a loop to loop connection is tarpon fishing when we’re constantly changing flies. I’ll do a double figure 8 in the butt then a furled section in the class that has a triple surgeons. I don’t trust a perfection loop. Had one slip with maybe 5-7lbs of pressure with a poon just steady taking drag. I also think loops create a hinge point.


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## Capt.Ron (Mar 5, 2014)

Nway93 said:


> I don’t like loops at all if I can avoid it. The only time I will use a loop to loop connection is tarpon fishing when we’re constantly changing flies. I’ll do a double figure 8 in the butt then a furled section in the class that has a triple surgeons. I don’t trust a perfection loop. Had one slip with maybe 5-7lbs of pressure with a poon just steady taking drag. I also think loops create a hinge point.


tied correctly, perfection loops never slip.


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## Fliesbynight (Mar 23, 2020)

Interesting to read the differing views on the various knots. Here's my typical set up:

Double Surgeon's Loop (four passes through) for butt to fly line, blood knots for each section in the taper, blood knot leader to tippet. I don't generally use a shock or bite tippet. Only needed here in Jersey when the bluefish are slashing. Tippet to fly is always a No-Slip Loop. Easy to tie, even in the dark and I have never had one fail.

The only thing I do different is backing to fly line. Instead of a traditional Albright, I use a sewing needle to thread the backing through the middle of the fly line about 3/4". Push the needle out and tie the Albright with the backing. A little warm water helps soften the fly line to pass the needle through. The wraps of the Albright tighten down under load and the knot goes right thru the guides like silk as long as you don't high stick too much. I used to seal the wraps with Hard As Nails, but I haven't done that in years. Found it wasn't necessary.


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## Snakesurf (Jun 18, 2019)

karstopo said:


> Which part? I don’t like surgeon’s loops as they look clunky, lumpy and form a crook in the leader when used between sections, but I guess they work. I tied them early on, then went on to perfection loops, blood knots and rapala loops. IMO, Blood knots look infinitely better section to section, but are they stronger, who knows? Generally, what breaks is the tippet and that’s almost always operator error or something sharp involved, not the questionable knot strength of any of the knots mentioned.


You tie in 3# tippet on your leader and catch big fish, you will figure out what line to line knot is best. I have found a blood not is. 
For loops I just use the surgeon or the double surgeon and I totally agree with you about how they look. I need to check out the Rapala knot. Thanks


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## karstopo (Nov 28, 2019)

I missed the whole 3# tippet part. I don’t fish with anything close to being that light.


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## Steve_Mevers (Feb 8, 2013)

ifsteve said:


> For end of butt to fly line I use a perfection loop. I don't use loops in my actual leaders. Those connections are uni to uni. For attaching the fly I use a No Slip loop unless tarpon fishing then its the improved Homer Rhodes loop knot.
> 
> FWIW testing different connections is a fine idea. It removes one variable from the equation that is in the anglers control. However two words of caution:
> 1. Be sure that the knots/loops you tie to test are the exact same as when you are actually fishing. The problem here is that sitting in your den you can take time to do a really good knot. But when sitting out on a rocking boat in the midst of fishing or in poor light can you tie that same knot equally as well? Sometimes you are better off using a lesser knot that you can tie 100% than a better knot that you don't tie as well when actually fishing.
> ...


Goo


Nway93 said:


> I don’t like loops at all if I can avoid it. The only time I will use a loop to loop connection is tarpon fishing when we’re constantly changing flies. I’ll do a double figure 8 in the butt then a furled section in the class that has a triple surgeons. I don’t trust a perfection loop. Had one slip with maybe 5-7lbs of pressure with a poon just steady taking drag. I also think loops create a hinge point.


I have not experienced any hinging with a loop to loop connection once you pull them tight. It is the same connection used when attaching loop on fly line to a butt section perfection knot butt section.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

This is how Lefty does it. He used loop to loop and I don’t think his leaders hinged


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

The only loop (for loop to loop connections) that I've ever used is the surgeon's - and it's preceded generally by a bimini twist to double the before that loop is tied... Here's a pic that I used a few years back in an article for Florida Sportsman...


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## Loogie (Jul 24, 2019)

Top to bottom loop knots

Steve Huff double figure eight loop knot

Surgeon loop knot

Kreh loop

I prefer figure eight knot, it’s straight.


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## jay.bush1434 (Dec 27, 2014)

Backing to fly line: double bimini
Leader butt section to fly line: non-slip look knot.
Tipper to leader and leader sections: blood knot

Only time I use a surgeons knot is in 5x and smaller when I'm trout fishing. I'm comfortable tying the non-slip loop knot and the blood knot and not so much the perfection loop. Only time I'd tie it anyway is for a loop in the butt section to fly line connection but, properly tied, the non-slip loop knot cinches down straight with no kink.


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## Jason M (Aug 13, 2017)

Steve_Mevers said:


> Goo
> 
> 
> I have not experienced any hinging with a loop to loop connection once you pull them tight. It is the same connection used when attaching loop on fly line to a butt section perfection knot butt section.


Agreed. If the loops are pulled tight they will not hinge.

For at least 15 years my non-tarpon leaders were a long butt section with the class tippet with loop to loop connections using a double surgeons loop. The weakest part of that leader is the double surgeons in the tippet. I liked the surgeons because the perfection loop tag end sticks out and grabs weeds.


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## permitchaser (Aug 26, 2013)

Never thought of using the no slip knot for a loop but why not. It's kept the fly on with 100+ Tarpon


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## HunterOnFly (Apr 15, 2020)

Nway93 said:


> I don’t like loops at all if I can avoid it. The only time I will use a loop to loop connection is tarpon fishing when we’re constantly changing flies. I’ll do a double figure 8 in the butt then a furled section in the class that has a triple surgeons. I don’t trust a perfection loop. Had one slip with maybe 5-7lbs of pressure with a poon just steady taking drag. I also think loops create a hinge point.


I had a butt to fly line nail knot slip off when bit by a 100 pounder. Lost the entire leader and fish. I don’t trust MY nail knot anymore.


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## Stevie (Jun 27, 2017)

HunterOnFly said:


> I had a butt to fly line nail knot slip off when bit by a 100 pounder. Lost the entire leader and fish. I don’t trust MY nail knot anymore.


Did you glue the nail knot to line?

I stopped using the manufacturers fly line loops over the last year and have tied a butt section on with a nail knot. We try to glue the nail knots & so far they’ve held. We then use normal blood knots for tapered leaders. The loop knot I use from tippet to fly is the perfection loop. That has worked for bones, permit and some tarpon.


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

While a properly tied nail knot (seven turns - and tested until your hands hurt) will hold on a floating line... Things change with an Intermediate line (or a floater with an intermediate tip...). A single nail knot just won't do so I do two in a row using the same butt section, spaced about 1/2" apart on the fly line. Done properly you won't even know it's there (will slide through the tiptop and guides just fine if you make sure to trim the end up close and at a 45 degree angle).

Being an old school guy my knots onto the fly line are coated with Pliobond (a rubber based cement) to protect them from chafing and to extend the life of that connection. As soon as the Pliobond is tack free I roll each area between thumb and finger tip to smooth it out and taper it away from the knot to aid in passing seamlessly through the guides.

All of my butt sections are permanently attached to each fly line - with a surgeon's loop at the bitter end where I'll attach the leader with a loop to loop connection (and it's the only loop to loop connection to my leader setup). By the way each butt section is tailored to the line size you're attaching it to... A 12wt line will have about six feet of 60lb butt section - a 7wt line will have a three to three and a half foot section of 30lb (and all of my butt sections are monofilament - not fluorocarbon... ).

Hope this helps... "be a hero... take a kid fishing"


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## Hank (Jan 14, 2019)

What Capt. Bob wrote above. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Its not the only way, but it will work all the time.


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## ifsteve (Jul 1, 2010)

I long ago stopped with nail knotting my butt section to the fly line. Just got tired of having to redo the connection whenever the butt section got too short. But it IS the best connection.


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## Capt.Ron (Mar 5, 2014)

lemaymiami said:


> While a properly tied nail knot (seven turns - and tested until your hands hurt) will hold on a floating line... Things change with an Intermediate line (or a floater with an intermediate tip...). A single nail knot just won't do so I do two in a row using the same butt section, spaced about 1/2" apart on the fly line. Done properly you won't even know it's there (will slide through the tiptop and guides just fine if you make sure to trim the end up close and at a 45 degree angle).
> 
> Being an old school guy my knots onto the fly line are coated with Pliobond (a rubber based cement) to protect them from chafing and to extend the life of that connection. As soon as the Pliobond is tack free I roll each area between thumb and finger tip to smooth it out and taper it away from the knot to aid in passing seamlessly through the guides.
> 
> ...


Capt. Bob,

What I have never trusted about a nail knot, is not getting a direct connection to the fly line core. resulting in slippage. In theory wouldn't an Albright be more capable in heavy lifting. you were around long before I was, so your opinion counts more than some.


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## crboggs (Mar 30, 2015)

There are normal fishing knots...and then there are tarpon fishing knots. I certainly learned that the hard way...

For normal fishing I use a perfection loop on the terminal end of my butt/middle section so that I can swap out tippet sections depending on conditions.

And I connect the fly to the tippet with a canoe man loop.

Have never had either of those knots break on a redfish, snook, etc.


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## redchaser (Aug 24, 2015)

Depends on what part of the leader. If I'm putting a loop on the butt end to loop to loop to the fly line I just tie a perfection loop because its so quick and easy, lays pretty straight and being in the butt end knot strength is almost irrelevant since even if it held only 50% of line strength it would still be stronger than my tippet. For connecting to a fly, for general use I use the Kreh loop, if I'm putting a loop in havy shock tippet to fly I'll use the Huff double figure 8 loop. For connecting leader sections I use standard blood knots except where the tippet (or class tippet) ties in, I'll use super improved blood knots there.


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## birddog (Feb 21, 2019)

For a long time the perfection loop was the only loop I knew, so I used it both for backing to line and leader to line. I'm not lucky enough to get to chase many tarpon, but both connections held up to plenty of bonefish and such and I like the way the loop lays compared to a surgeons especially on heavier material


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## lemaymiami (Feb 9, 2007)

I know that for many the nail knot is problematic… Here’s how I test mine to failure, then will re-do it until it’s right…
Tie up that nail knot then take a double wrap of leader in one hand and do the same with the fly line in your other hand. You want to start with your hands at least four inches apart on your chest then slowly pull that knot tight - then keep pulling until the line is hurting your hands trying to make that nail knot fail. If it survives you’re in business… if it fails, start over and try again. If you can’t get it right — go to sime other knot…


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## mro (Jan 24, 2018)

I've got a rather large spool of 30# backing so
30# backing on my 7 and up reels will hold at least 150 yards
all my leaders tied with blood knots, with saltwater leaders go down to 20# then the tippet
test similar to Lemay but place my hands on the out side of my knees when sitting to pull and hold the fly line, backing or leader. Only loop, tippet to fly.

before applying pliobond on a 7 wt fly line
fly line trimmed at an angle, then 10# mono over the ends of the fly line and backing
this is as fancy as I get tying knots, stopped tying bimini's in the 70's when I started only going down to 20# on my leaders


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